From rana at ranadasgupta.com Mon Sep 1 00:01:31 2008 From: rana at ranadasgupta.com (Rana Dasgupta) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 00:01:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Husain Exhibition Attacked in Delhi In-Reply-To: <436640.49819.qm@web90403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <436640.49819.qm@web90403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48BAE383.1030305@ranadasgupta.com> ONE No one knows what Hinduism is. But perhaps we can agree that the Upanishads are "Hindu". In the Mandukya Upanishad, which discusses the word "Om", we read that in addition to the three sounds of this word, which correspond to three different states of a person, there is also its silence - and this corresponds to the transcendental state of the individual - to a person: "who is neither inwardly nor outwardly aware, nor both inward and outward, nor with consciousness infolded on itself - who is unseen and ineffable, ungraspable, featureless, unthinkable and unnameable." Other Upanishads name this transcendental state of Om. It is Brahman. It is infinity. The word "infinity" is used frequently today. But the Upanishads take this word at its face value. Infinity is *truly* infinite. It has no end, and there is nothing it does not include. Om is *literally* everything. There is nothing that is not Om. Even the things we think are not Om, are Om. Even a parody of Om is Om. Even an insult to Om is Om. Meditation on the word "Om" reveals that the self is part of this infinity. I am Om. My egotistical impulses are ridiculous. I cannot take from the universe because I am the universe. If I feel that my body or my street or my family or my town or my country are spiritually unique or special then I have not begun to understand the infinity I am part of. I cannot break anything off from this infinity and worship it. Infinity is infinity, and I can spend my entire life contemplating it but every thought I have of infinity is limited, and it is not infinity itself. If this is Hinduism then Hinduism is fantastically, impossibly grand. Why then would we mix it up with things that are not grand at all, as if they existed on the same level? "India" for instance. "India" is a 60 year-old political pragmatism. "India" is an accidental territory. It is a collection of peoples of different races, histories, languages, religions, incomes and sexualities. It is a seat in the UN. It is a bureaucratic machine. It is a hastily contrived set of symbols. Its beginning was recent, and one day it will cease to be. It is not particularly grand. In the context of infinity, of Om, India is of no importance at all. It seems impossible that Hindus, people with such an enormous vision of the universe, would get upset about pictures that a painter made. The painter is Om, and so are his pictures. Sex is Om, the naked body is Om. It seems impossible that Hindus would be interested in nationalism or anti-nationalism because such parochialism would be far below them. They would only be interested in "India" in the same way they were interested in "Congo" or "Azerbaijan" or "Paraguay" - for these things are of interest, but none more than any other. Hindus are too grand to be concerned by India or painters or people who worship differently to them. Such things melt into the enormity of infinity, and disappear. TWO Why would one speak of "the Motherland"? What is one trying to say with this word? How can "the Motherland" be identical to a nation? If one is trying to say that the land is nurturing like a mother this is true, but so is all land, not just the land of a certain nation. Perhaps one could say that the Indian government organised schools and ration cards and elections and television broadcasts - and therefore India is my Motherland. But this would be a strange and unromantic idea of a mother. chanchal malviya wrote: > Dear Khanna, > > 1. There are people in this world who are not ready to take the positive side of their own identity. There are people who would love to rape their own mother and motherland. And there are some people who even protect their intention as personal attitude. Great. Not to say anything to them. > 2. You telling that motherland is a metaphor and nothing else explains in itself what you feel about India. I am sure such person also feel the same for their own mother and sister. And I have written earlier that such person would not come to protect their mother also, what to say about the broader concept of motherland. > 3. As far as Hinduism is concerned, it has to be recognized through the text only. It cannot be recognized at least now by actions of people. Because India is more Islamic and Christianized than a Hindu country. Of course, people like you are a part of it. Hinduism is a mere subject of attack in India. What I told about Hinduism is exactly what is HInduism. And why Hinduism, this word came into existence only when other Religions forced it upon the people of Sanatan Dharma. > > I know you will not be able to understand the difference between Dharma and Religion. For you and Gandhiji both are same. But Dharma means Righteous duty and Religion is what you all are talking about. Hinduism is science and teaches righteous duty in scientific manner. World outside India is recognizing this, but our Indians will understand it only when a 'Gora' will come and say and that also when he is ruling us. Sorry. > > Sex is a power of nature that is to be won by human through various methodologies described in Hindu text. And that is an important step towards Self-Realization. Attempt is that only. Women taking bath nude didn't cover their body when Sukdeva (son of Veda Vyas) crossed them, because they knew that he is a child in his nature on this matter. But they immediately took cover when Veda Vyas crossed. > There are many stories where Saints are being enticed by Apsaras for sex. And the theme of all story is same - sex is a very powerful natural factor. And winning over it is the biggest win in life. > If sex would have been so prominent in Hindus, we would have found Hindu society also marrying multitude of women. > Please do not try to put Hinduism under charge, for this. > I have already told you the meaning of Deities, and yet you do not understand and ask me stupid questions. > > Unlike Islam, where one is allowed to marry as many as they like as per their capacity and in addition keep as many women as their right hand posses (Hindu women) for sex. It is unlike Christian where sex and love are the same thing. > > M.F.Hussain is a gift of Islam. So, he will see even his motherland only with his Madhuri attitude. No, he is seeing India nude with his Islamic attitude. He has seen Madhuri also with his Islamic attitude, though film stars have a different life style and we may not be protective of them in this matter. > > It is so simple, if M.F.Hussain is so clean, let him paint his mother. Or if you or the protector of M.F.Hussain has so large heart, please send a photograph of your mother to him and ask him to paint her nude. Let me see, how many of you are not of double standard. > Either you all are in favor of Darul-Islam, or you are abusing your own motherland by supporting bloody Hussain. > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: A Khanna > To: Prabhakar Singh > Cc: chanchal malviya ; inder salim ; reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 3:36:56 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Husain Exhibition Attacked in Delhi > > chanchal, prabhakar, Everyone Else, > > there are three issues i'd like to reflect on in light of your rather > rabid postings on the issues of the attack on M.F. Husain's > exhibition. Apologies for the rather long posting, i do hope some of > you will find it interesting. > > First, a rather obvious contestation relating to Chanchal's gratuitous > offer to speak the 'truth' of 'Hinudism', and more broadly, the > aggressive claim of Hindutva forces of a monopoly of what the terms > 'Hindu' and 'Hinduism' may mean. More particularly, this is a > contestation of the place of sexualness and eroticism in them. What > makes it possible for the claim to be made that 'sex is not erotic in > hinduism' on the one hand, and the demeaning of artists who brought > out erotics in sex as 'failed' Hindus? What exactly is the fear of the > erotic? Why are these strange people trying to cleave eroticism away > from the lives of 'Hindus'?? > > Surely you are aware that there is a diversity of practices, > festivals, mythologies, political economies, cosmologies if you like, > in different parts of the country and in different communities in the > same regions, that may lay claim to the name 'Hindu'. This is even in > the face of colonial, and more recent hindu fundamentalist, attempts > to reduce this diversity into a rather boring, often textual, > normative frame. Chanchal offers, in other words, one peculiar vision > of some 'pure' or 'original' 'Hinduism' as though it exists in texts > (particular ones that by perhaps little more than historical > serendipity, and sex anxious coloniality, came to be seen as > containing the 'truth' of 'Hindu culture'), rather than in the > embodiment and practices of people. chanchal's vision, of a “faith > (not religion) that talks about winning over the senses (particularly > sex)” is one that, for the large part, stands miles away from various > realities, practices and beliefs of those who consider themselves > 'Hindu'. > > In my travels around India researching sexualness and eroticism I > encountered a confounding multiplicity of festivals, rituals, > identities and idioms in which eroticism, desire and sexualness are > central. Way too many of these take place in temples, way too many of > these are central to local religious practices, and the logics and > experiences of faith, way too many of these lay claim to being > 'Hindu', for me to accept chanchal's description of Hinduism as an > achievement over sex. Or of the Lingam as light. (is it just me or > does this sounds closer to a Victorian Christianity? – a reading of > colonial anxieties around sex race and gender into the truth of the > self?) So chanchal, unfortunately yours is one peculiar vision of > 'hindu', and a pathetically unimaginative one at that. It sounds to me > like the collective voice of a masculinist upper caste that is yet to > come to terms with (or even recognise) the damage done to it through > the colonial experience and one which clings to rather fragile stories > of the self. And it is unfortunate that the political economy of > Hindutva allows such a vision so much importance today. (Let me > clarify that i am not particularly invested or interested in > reclaiming Hindu from the bare teeth of the aggressive masculinist > claimants. But i do want to point to the right of others to do so.) > > The second interesting point in the postings is the tension around > nudity. Nakedness. Such a beautiful experience. Do you not love the > human body? Do you not love your own selves? Is it a fear or disgust > with the self or some other trauma that brings about such anxiety > around nakedness? But ofcourse this is not just the representation of > the naked human body that seems to have caused this anxiety – it seems > to be, more precisely, that you necessarily see sexualness and > eroticism in the naked human body. But hold on, it is not just > sexualness and eroticism of the naked human body that has caused this > anxiety, it is a very particular nakedness – the nakedness of > 'Motherland India'. Because, the problem with 'perverted Husain' is > that to him “Mother Indian and Madhuri are the same” – therefore, > actually its alright for him to paint Madhuri, in fact you probably > sat at the edge of your seat, enthralled as many of us were, as > Madhuri oh so sensuously thrust her beautiful breasts forward, > inviting you to a world of phantasmic pleasure, nevermind the > performance of outrage at the LYRICS of Choli Ke Peechhe (and i'm not > talking merely of pleasure for the male gaze of Masculine Men. I for > one, wanted to be Madhuri). Its the nakedness of Mother India, or > Motherland India that caused anxiety. So lets face this ponderous > image of a naked, sexualised Mother India head on. There are two > things that i find fascinating here. > > First, the Motherland is a metaphor. A very powerful metaphor > admittedly. But a metaphor nonetheless. India is experienced as many > things, and through many metaphors – a place, sometimes a 'people', a > postcolonial nation state, a geographical entity with multiple and > complex cartographic existences, a cricket team, a zone of intense > gastronomic density, a colonising force, an a series of competing and > collaborating political economies...But India is not simply a woman. > And Kashmir is not the head of this woman (as we were unfortunately > taught in school in the 80s). The power of this metaphor is truly > fascinating. > > But how does one strip a metaphor?? This must be one hell of a > brilliant painting! (on which note, are there any weblinks to images > of this painting? If someone knows a link i implore you, please share > it on this list). If it is true that this painting has managed to > actually bring this metaphor into an embodiment, and then brought out > an eroticism in it (rather than what it seems like, the attackers not > having even really seen and experienced the the painting) then what it > has done is expose Mother India as a metaphor, and weakened the power > that 'she' wields. Brilliant. The second thing is of course that once > we see Mother India as a metaphor into which we are constantly > investing a sense of reality, the metaphor becomes a contested space. > And perhaps this is what is creating anxiety for the likes of > prabhakar and chanchal? > > So lets look at what it is about the stripping of this metaphor that > has gotten them, and the attackers of the exhibition so aggressive? > What is the power of this metaphor? One of prabhakar's email hits the > nail on the head. “If some artist in the name of art paints your > mother nude and displays it in art galleries and exhibitions to public > how would you feel and how would you react?”, s/he asks. A similar > point is made by chanchal when s/he says “I am sure, a person who > paints his motherland nude, must have done much more nonesense (sic) > to his mother and sister”. This leads me to understand that the > anxiety over the depiction of Mother India in such a way that she may > be seen to be sexualised, as erotic, is actually an anxiety around the > possibility that heris mother is sexual, or has an erotic side to her. > Is it scary, prabhakar, chanchal, for you to imagine that your mother > may be a sexual being with erotic desires, and with a body that is her > own, and which can be naked? Is it a fear of this possibility that > evokes in you, such strong emotions when you see (or perhaps hear of) > what some artist has done on a piece of canvas with paint? Is it this > fear that you will allow to dominate your very imagination of the > Nation of India? Freudian psychobabble, in other words, offers itself > up tantalisingly here. Is their Hindu nation structured around an > Oedipal anxiety over desire for the mother? (ugh!) > > The troubling effect of this is of course the denial in nationalist > discourse of sexualness or rather the right to sexualness of women, as > after all, the big obligation on the good woman is to become the > mother of (male) children. This justifies mechanisms of regulation > over women's sexualness, and the meting out of punishment and > exclusion to those who fail to live within these boundaries, or > transgress them at will. The protests against the film Fire being a > case in point. But how does a woman become a mother (over and over > again, atleast until she begets a Son), when she is bereft of > sexualness? Is this an imagination of immaculate conception, or, a > belief that the only form of legitimate sex is heterosexual rape? The > point here is that if the metaphor of the Motherland and the lives of > women must feed into each other, the demand for the recognition of > sexualness and women's right to sexuality must also address the > sexualness of the metaphor of Mother India. > > This brings me to my last point. I was brought up with a sense of > patriotism, stories of the freedom struggle, stories of the success of > Big Nehruvian development and images of Mother India. In fact i > sometimes still experience a sense of nostalgia for that heady emotion > of being part of that particular 'something bigger'. (yes, i cried > when i watched Rang De Basanti). I have, in other words, experienced > the power of Mother India, and surely all that investment by the state > into making sure that this experience marks my psyche forever entails > me to owning the metaphor. I claim the right, in other words to invest > this metaphor with things. If i bring my travels around India to bear > on this, i'd say 'Mother India', to me, is one hell of beautiful, > sensual, sexual, erotic figure, a polymorphous queer body, who laughs, > flirts, makes love, has soul-baring intense sex. Oh, and, sigh, S/he > also makes steel. > > > Love, > > akshay > From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Mon Sep 1 04:05:24 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 04:05:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] terror in kashmir: what the news wont tell you Message-ID: <48c2916d0808311535r7f4fb66el438c71ca1eb0ead8@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, Shivam posted these on kafila today. I thought they should also be shared with this list. Please take the time to go through them. They made my blood run cold. I think everyone would do well to ask themselves if any cause, no matter how dear they hold it, would justify this violence in their names. Because this is being done in our names, everyone one of us who carry Indian passports, everyone of us who pay taxes, everyone one of us who voted in the elections that formed this government. If this violence is the "means" to the end of keeping kashmir with India, then perhaps it is time even for passionate nationalists to ask whether it is worth it to see yourselves brutalized beyond recognition, to make you complicit in this brutality beyond comprehension. Aarti ng mother not spared during curfew CRPF administers 'patriotic' dose to 56-yr old Crippling curfew devastates fruit industry Sikh Youth thrashed by Samiti supporters 'Dangerous conspiracy to give communal color to movement' While we were gagged 8 Killed, Hundreds Injured In 7 Days, Massive Clampdown On Valley Where are pro-freedom leaders? Geelani's Son-In-Law Seeks Red Cross' Intervention Curfew relaxed, not beating 'It is terrorism in uniform' Yeh BBC London Ki Urdu Service Hai News starved Kashmiris tune into popular radio program of 90's in curfew Tangmarg Imam goes missing Curfew revives water transport on Jhelum AMK condemns demand for ban on Kashir channel Hindu chauvinist derails Mumbai citizens' sit-in Azaadi echo in Delhi Civil right activists favour Kashmir independence Steep rise in CRPF battalions in Valley From angshukanta at gmail.com Mon Sep 1 04:08:27 2008 From: angshukanta at gmail.com (Angshukanta Chakraborty) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2008 23:38:27 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Husain Exhibition Attacked in Delhi In-Reply-To: <48BAE383.1030305@ranadasgupta.com> References: <436640.49819.qm@web90403.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <48BAE383.1030305@ranadasgupta.com> Message-ID: <77aa94900808311538m7355731bi48ce51ab29f23c65@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rana and all others reading this post, I would suggest everyone reading this particular yet unpublished novel by Prashant Parikh serialised in a blog: http://thesouthasianidea.wordpress.com/a-gash-in-the-world/ Though, not amongst the 'best' of contemporary fictions, it definitely rings a resounding bell, and I'm sending the link as a partial answer to some of the questions and issues raised in this argument over the 'meaning of Hinduism' which is supposedly under attack by a work of art composed by an artist from/of a different, and more specifically, the Muslim religion. The keywords/phrases that have been repeatedly discussed in this chain of arguments are probably these: Hinduism, Hindus, Art, Painting, Hussain, Muslim, Islam, India, Motherland, Metaphor, Sex, Sexuality, Body, Nudity, and lastly Om/Aum. I'm not going to add anything to what Akshay Khanna beautifully put forward in his earlier post, and which basically explicates most of these key topics. I'd rather write what came to my mind upon reading Rana Dasgupta's evocation of Om/Aum, one of the most 'fundamental' sounds/words in the Hindu scriptures, especially dealt with in the Mandukya Upanishad. No I haven't read the scriptures, none of them, but I intend to, and I will sometime. But, I do understand, that they, the scriptures, whether ascribed to the Hindu, Islamic or Christian religions, are still TEXTS in the very basic sense. They are books, transcribed meditations, historical records, testimonies of cultures, databases, and a compilation of contextual ideas. So, first of all, we need to strip them of the grandiloquent aura that surrounds them, and see them as critical source books, full of then relevant intellectual concepts, which need a historicisation and reinterpretation whenever they are brought up. Of course we all know what I just stated. However, I needed to reiterate it before going on to say anything, not just about, but perhaps what I *now* *think about* Om/Aum, upon reading Rana's post. Needless to say, whatever I say here is completely open to refutation. I quote Rana, *In the Mandukya Upanishad, which discusses the word "Om", we read that in addition to the three sounds of this word, which correspond to three different states of a person, there is also its silence - and this corresponds to the transcendental state of the individual - to a person* *"who is neither inwardly nor outwardly aware, nor both inward and outward, nor with consciousness infolded on itself - who is unseen and ineffable, ungraspable, featureless, unthinkable and unnameable." Other Upanishads name this transcendental state of Om. It is Brahman. It is infinity. * Aum, more tham anything, is a compound sound, with which three plus one (a trifle arbitary) "states" have been associated: a for waking, u for dreaming, and m for dreamless sleeping. This sound could have been anything else, involving a different set of vowels or consonants, and could have still meant the three so-called states of human existence, and the unsaid but meant fourth one, without altering the gravity of their meanings. So, in a way, Aum is a sound, albeit a sanctified one, a textually and historically validated sound that incidentally got passed on through centuries and generations, attaining its cumulative hugeness through acceptance and validation. If we didn't have an Ium, or Uam, or even Oep as something that denotes our fundamental states of being, the universe and what not, well then why did we not? Is it because they are not suitably guttural? ( I just realised that uttering Aum actually exercises some of the abdominal muscles, then was it for the medical purposes after all?) Hence, I think that ascription of the universe or infinity to the sound Om/Aum, and vice-versa, is hence one of the biggest coincidences of Vedic scriptural culture. Of course, we need to understand that so is every word, a compound sound, and it's only by mutual agreement can we begin to make meaning out of them, which is precisely why, when sparks of disagreement fly, meanings *change*. *The word "infinity" is used frequently today. But the Upanishads take this word at its face value. Infinity is *truly* infinite. It has no end, and there is nothing it does not include. Om is *literally* everything. There is nothing that is not Om. Even the things we think are not Om, are Om. Even a parody of Om is Om. Even an insult to Om is Om*. This phraseology matches exactly with the way the advocates of "Hinduism-is-not-a-religion-it-is-A-Way-of-Life" present their arguments. First on Om: Om *is* a sound, literally. Om *has come to signify* in the Vedic texts the Infinity. Therefore, Om ~ Infinity, but Om =/= Infinity, that is to say, Om has been made to correspond with Infinity, but Om is not equivalent to Infinity. For Infinity to be truly Infinite, it has be beyond any equivalence. It can only be indicated, but never arrived at. If the Vedic scripturers, excuse the neologism, wanted to obtain a spiritual theorem, or a philosophical axiom, they had to put something on the left to be weighed along with something else on the right. typically it is X = Y, or X = f(Y), that is, f being a function of Y. If we take X to be Om, and Y to be Infinity, and f, the function to be existence, (in its profoundest or profanest sense, your call), then we arrive at two different versions. These being: Om = Infinity, and Om= (existence of) Infinity. Could these two expressions mean/be the same? Which of the two were the script-writers of the Upanishads endorsing when they spoke of it? Is the writing of Om different from Om the sound in terms of its gravity? Is Om written in English letters different from the Om in Devanagari? As we see, the fundamental sound, already seems to be extremely fissured and contestable to be so fundamental and inviolable after all. Now on Om-is-Infinity's similarities with Hinduism-is-a-Way-of-Life: Om is an incidental Infinity, if I can say so, and if you accept my saying so. However, people who take Om on facevalue, have a penchant for taking most of the things just so, literally, on facevalue, and not dig into the oceans of metaphor and history submerged beneath. In the same vein, if Hinduism happens to be a sum total of the religious activities (including reading, writing, re-writing, ritualising, performing as dictated in the texts in their innumerable versions) and the other activities that are more common and shared by people belonging to other religions (activities like eating, drinking, sleeping, mating, discussing, gossiping, net-surfing, etc), then what is so special about Hinduism? Christianity or Islam or even Sikhism and Buddhism too can boast of exactly the same things, i.e., the religious and other general activities. So, it is basically the *textual differences* in the scriptures, whether the Upanishads, the Quran, the Bible or the Guru Granth Sahib, that chart out the finer patterns of the execution of the religious ritual, that mark one religion from the other. It is what exactly one says (and in what order) while exchanging the wedding vows that differentiates one religious marriage from the other. If Hinduism is a way of life, then so are Christianity, Islam, Buddism or Sikhism. But if these are merely religions, then so is Hinduism. Probably what is at stake here is the gravity of implication connoted by the difference in phraseology. If Hinduism has Om, and Om is Infinity, and Infinity has everything, including its contradiction and/or things extraneous to it (which is nothing), then logically, Hinduism has Infinity, and nothing exists outside of Infinity, hence nothing exists outside of Hinduism, which in a way, brings to nought every other religion. This is precisely the premise of the "Hinduism is a Way of Life" argument. It accommodates (may I say eats up? engulfs? cannibalises on?) everything else, hence it is not merely a religion, because it can adapt and re-invent itself by 'sheltering the rest'. Are we confusing the multifarious cross-fertilised cultures (whether linguistic, gastronomic, sartorial, educational, even religious) of this variegated land, called India since 1947, with simply Hinduism? Does that mean that whatever has been happening since the Vedic ages is autochthonous and 'organic' to this 'originally' Hindu India, and everything else that's extraneous or came from outside is non-Hindu, hence un-originary, hence non-Ways-of-Life? What we constantly underplay is the now distant presence of textuality in Hinduism, and play it off against the proximity, indeed the overt centrality of the core text in other religions. Since a Bible is present in the Christian wedding ceremony, along with the priest of course, it is a text-centric religious Religion, while because usually the Hindu Brahmin priests do away with the hassles of texts relying more on their impeccably reproducing memories, ours is a Way-of-Life Religion. I might go on endlessly charting out further the absurdities of this insistence. It has a value, if not critical validity, in terms of its applicability in the pre-Independence era, but to say it without scrutiny in the present times is bound to create oppositional voices. *If this is Hinduism then Hinduism is fantastically, impossibly grand. Why then would we mix it up with things that are not grand at all, as if they existed on the same level?* ** ** Although, if I get it right, Rana said this ironically, I think there's a lurking danger in such sarcasms that inflate the Hinduism balloon with the definitive intention of bursting it. To say 'why would we mix it up with things that are not grand at all' is tantamount to stopping the process of argument altogether because it is too big or pointless for a meaningful dialogue. No matter how flawed the other side appears, a dialogue is always needed. Hence, even Infinity needs grades and shades of various finitudes to be it. Such all-encompassing concepts, are at best exactly that, concepts, which are in turn human creations. So that makes the concept of Infinity a human creation, if not Infinity itself. And Infinity never forbids infinite dialogue. Rana, I never for second thought that you could be an advocate of the Hinduism is a Way Life school, or any such school that dictates. *Tokyo Cancelled* had the limitless expanse of our infinite finitudes, and most poetically and evocatively rendered. What I wrote was simply what came to my mind upon reading what you wrote. Perhaps this would elicit a dialogue, at best, but I hope nothing bitter even at worst. Best regards, Angshukanta On Sun, Aug 31, 2008 at 7:31 PM, Rana Dasgupta wrote: > ONE > > No one knows what Hinduism is. But perhaps we can agree that the > Upanishads are "Hindu". > > In the Mandukya Upanishad, which discusses the word "Om", we read that > in addition to the three sounds of this word, which correspond to three > different states of a person, there is also its silence - and this > corresponds to the transcendental state of the individual - to a person: > > "who is neither inwardly nor outwardly aware, nor both inward and > outward, nor with consciousness infolded on itself - who is unseen and > ineffable, ungraspable, featureless, unthinkable and unnameable." > > Other Upanishads name this transcendental state of Om. It is Brahman. > It is infinity. > > The word "infinity" is used frequently today. But the Upanishads take > this word at its face value. Infinity is *truly* infinite. It has no > end, and there is nothing it does not include. Om is *literally* > everything. There is nothing that is not Om. Even the things we think > are not Om, are Om. Even a parody of Om is Om. Even an insult to Om is > Om. > > Meditation on the word "Om" reveals that the self is part of this > infinity. I am Om. My egotistical impulses are ridiculous. I cannot > take from the universe because I am the universe. If I feel that my > body or my street or my family or my town or my country are spiritually > unique or special then I have not begun to understand the infinity I am > part of. I cannot break anything off from this infinity and worship it. > Infinity is infinity, and I can spend my entire life contemplating it > but every thought I have of infinity is limited, and it is not infinity > itself. > > If this is Hinduism then Hinduism is fantastically, impossibly grand. > Why then would we mix it up with things that are not grand at all, as if > they existed on the same level? > > "India" for instance. "India" is a 60 year-old political pragmatism. > "India" is an accidental territory. It is a collection of peoples of > different races, histories, languages, religions, incomes and > sexualities. It is a seat in the UN. It is a bureaucratic machine. It > is a hastily contrived set of symbols. Its beginning was recent, and > one day it will cease to be. It is not particularly grand. In the > context of infinity, of Om, India is of no importance at all. > > It seems impossible that Hindus, people with such an enormous vision of > the universe, would get upset about pictures that a painter made. The > painter is Om, and so are his pictures. Sex is Om, the naked body is > Om. It seems impossible that Hindus would be interested in nationalism > or anti-nationalism because such parochialism would be far below them. > They would only be interested in "India" in the same way they were > interested in "Congo" or "Azerbaijan" or "Paraguay" - for these things > are of interest, but none more than any other. > > Hindus are too grand to be concerned by India or painters or people who > worship differently to them. Such things melt into the enormity of > infinity, and disappear. > > TWO > > Why would one speak of "the Motherland"? What is one trying to say with > this word? How can "the Motherland" be identical to a nation? > > If one is trying to say that the land is nurturing like a mother this is > true, but so is all land, not just the land of a certain nation. > > Perhaps one could say that the Indian government organised schools and > ration cards and elections and television broadcasts - and therefore > India is my Motherland. But this would be a strange and unromantic idea > of a mother. > > > > > > > > > > chanchal malviya wrote: > > Dear Khanna, > > > > 1. There are people in this world who are not ready to take the > positive side of their own identity. There are people who would love to > rape their own mother and motherland. And there are some people who even > protect their intention as personal attitude. Great. Not to say anything > to them. > > 2. You telling that motherland is a metaphor and nothing else > explains in itself what you feel about India. I am sure such person also > feel the same for their own mother and sister. And I have written > earlier that such person would not come to protect their mother also, > what to say about the broader concept of motherland. > > 3. As far as Hinduism is concerned, it has to be recognized through > the text only. It cannot be recognized at least now by actions of > people. Because India is more Islamic and Christianized than a Hindu > country. Of course, people like you are a part of it. Hinduism is a mere > subject of attack in India. What I told about Hinduism is exactly what > is HInduism. And why Hinduism, this word came into existence only when > other Religions forced it upon the people of Sanatan Dharma. > > > > I know you will not be able to understand the difference between > Dharma and Religion. For you and Gandhiji both are same. But Dharma > means Righteous duty and Religion is what you all are talking about. > Hinduism is science and teaches righteous duty in scientific manner. > World outside India is recognizing this, but our Indians will understand > it only when a 'Gora' will come and say and that also when he is ruling > us. Sorry. > > > > Sex is a power of nature that is to be won by human through various > methodologies described in Hindu text. And that is an important step > towards Self-Realization. Attempt is that only. Women taking bath nude > didn't cover their body when Sukdeva (son of Veda Vyas) crossed them, > because they knew that he is a child in his nature on this matter. But > they immediately took cover when Veda Vyas crossed. > > There are many stories where Saints are being enticed by Apsaras for > sex. And the theme of all story is same - sex is a very powerful natural > factor. And winning over it is the biggest win in life. > > If sex would have been so prominent in Hindus, we would have found > Hindu society also marrying multitude of women. > > Please do not try to put Hinduism under charge, for this. > > I have already told you the meaning of Deities, and yet you do not > understand and ask me stupid questions. > > > > Unlike Islam, where one is allowed to marry as many as they like as > per their capacity and in addition keep as many women as their right > hand posses (Hindu women) for sex. It is unlike Christian where sex and > love are the same thing. > > > > M.F.Hussain is a gift of Islam. So, he will see even his motherland > only with his Madhuri attitude. No, he is seeing India nude with his > Islamic attitude. He has seen Madhuri also with his Islamic attitude, > though film stars have a different life style and we may not be > protective of them in this matter. > > > > It is so simple, if M.F.Hussain is so clean, let him paint his > mother. Or if you or the protector of M.F.Hussain has so large heart, > please send a photograph of your mother to him and ask him to paint her > nude. Let me see, how many of you are not of double standard. > > Either you all are in favor of Darul-Islam, or you are abusing your > own motherland by supporting bloody Hussain. > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: A Khanna > > To: Prabhakar Singh > > Cc: chanchal malviya ; inder salim > ; reader-list at sarai.net > > Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 3:36:56 AM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Husain Exhibition Attacked in Delhi > > > > chanchal, prabhakar, Everyone Else, > > > > there are three issues i'd like to reflect on in light of your rather > > rabid postings on the issues of the attack on M.F. Husain's > > exhibition. Apologies for the rather long posting, i do hope some of > > you will find it interesting. > > > > First, a rather obvious contestation relating to Chanchal's gratuitous > > offer to speak the 'truth' of 'Hinudism', and more broadly, the > > aggressive claim of Hindutva forces of a monopoly of what the terms > > 'Hindu' and 'Hinduism' may mean. More particularly, this is a > > contestation of the place of sexualness and eroticism in them. What > > makes it possible for the claim to be made that 'sex is not erotic in > > hinduism' on the one hand, and the demeaning of artists who brought > > out erotics in sex as 'failed' Hindus? What exactly is the fear of the > > erotic? Why are these strange people trying to cleave eroticism away > > from the lives of 'Hindus'?? > > > > Surely you are aware that there is a diversity of practices, > > festivals, mythologies, political economies, cosmologies if you like, > > in different parts of the country and in different communities in the > > same regions, that may lay claim to the name 'Hindu'. This is even in > > the face of colonial, and more recent hindu fundamentalist, attempts > > to reduce this diversity into a rather boring, often textual, > > normative frame. Chanchal offers, in other words, one peculiar vision > > of some 'pure' or 'original' 'Hinduism' as though it exists in texts > > (particular ones that by perhaps little more than historical > > serendipity, and sex anxious coloniality, came to be seen as > > containing the 'truth' of 'Hindu culture'), rather than in the > > embodiment and practices of people. chanchal's vision, of a "faith > > (not religion) that talks about winning over the senses (particularly > > sex)" is one that, for the large part, stands miles away from various > > realities, practices and beliefs of those who consider themselves > > 'Hindu'. > > > > In my travels around India researching sexualness and eroticism I > > encountered a confounding multiplicity of festivals, rituals, > > identities and idioms in which eroticism, desire and sexualness are > > central. Way too many of these take place in temples, way too many of > > these are central to local religious practices, and the logics and > > experiences of faith, way too many of these lay claim to being > > 'Hindu', for me to accept chanchal's description of Hinduism as an > > achievement over sex. Or of the Lingam as light. (is it just me or > > does this sounds closer to a Victorian Christianity? – a reading of > > colonial anxieties around sex race and gender into the truth of the > > self?) So chanchal, unfortunately yours is one peculiar vision of > > 'hindu', and a pathetically unimaginative one at that. It sounds to me > > like the collective voice of a masculinist upper caste that is yet to > > come to terms with (or even recognise) the damage done to it through > > the colonial experience and one which clings to rather fragile stories > > of the self. And it is unfortunate that the political economy of > > Hindutva allows such a vision so much importance today. (Let me > > clarify that i am not particularly invested or interested in > > reclaiming Hindu from the bare teeth of the aggressive masculinist > > claimants. But i do want to point to the right of others to do so.) > > > > The second interesting point in the postings is the tension around > > nudity. Nakedness. Such a beautiful experience. Do you not love the > > human body? Do you not love your own selves? Is it a fear or disgust > > with the self or some other trauma that brings about such anxiety > > around nakedness? But ofcourse this is not just the representation of > > the naked human body that seems to have caused this anxiety – it seems > > to be, more precisely, that you necessarily see sexualness and > > eroticism in the naked human body. But hold on, it is not just > > sexualness and eroticism of the naked human body that has caused this > > anxiety, it is a very particular nakedness – the nakedness of > > 'Motherland India'. Because, the problem with 'perverted Husain' is > > that to him "Mother Indian and Madhuri are the same" – therefore, > > actually its alright for him to paint Madhuri, in fact you probably > > sat at the edge of your seat, enthralled as many of us were, as > > Madhuri oh so sensuously thrust her beautiful breasts forward, > > inviting you to a world of phantasmic pleasure, nevermind the > > performance of outrage at the LYRICS of Choli Ke Peechhe (and i'm not > > talking merely of pleasure for the male gaze of Masculine Men. I for > > one, wanted to be Madhuri). Its the nakedness of Mother India, or > > Motherland India that caused anxiety. So lets face this ponderous > > image of a naked, sexualised Mother India head on. There are two > > things that i find fascinating here. > > > > First, the Motherland is a metaphor. A very powerful metaphor > > admittedly. But a metaphor nonetheless. India is experienced as many > > things, and through many metaphors – a place, sometimes a 'people', a > > postcolonial nation state, a geographical entity with multiple and > > complex cartographic existences, a cricket team, a zone of intense > > gastronomic density, a colonising force, an a series of competing and > > collaborating political economies...But India is not simply a woman. > > And Kashmir is not the head of this woman (as we were unfortunately > > taught in school in the 80s). The power of this metaphor is truly > > fascinating. > > > > But how does one strip a metaphor?? This must be one hell of a > > brilliant painting! (on which note, are there any weblinks to images > > of this painting? If someone knows a link i implore you, please share > > it on this list). If it is true that this painting has managed to > > actually bring this metaphor into an embodiment, and then brought out > > an eroticism in it (rather than what it seems like, the attackers not > > having even really seen and experienced the the painting) then what it > > has done is expose Mother India as a metaphor, and weakened the power > > that 'she' wields. Brilliant. The second thing is of course that once > > we see Mother India as a metaphor into which we are constantly > > investing a sense of reality, the metaphor becomes a contested space. > > And perhaps this is what is creating anxiety for the likes of > > prabhakar and chanchal? > > > > So lets look at what it is about the stripping of this metaphor that > > has gotten them, and the attackers of the exhibition so aggressive? > > What is the power of this metaphor? One of prabhakar's email hits the > > nail on the head. "If some artist in the name of art paints your > > mother nude and displays it in art galleries and exhibitions to public > > how would you feel and how would you react?", s/he asks. A similar > > point is made by chanchal when s/he says "I am sure, a person who > > paints his motherland nude, must have done much more nonesense (sic) > > to his mother and sister". This leads me to understand that the > > anxiety over the depiction of Mother India in such a way that she may > > be seen to be sexualised, as erotic, is actually an anxiety around the > > possibility that heris mother is sexual, or has an erotic side to her. > > Is it scary, prabhakar, chanchal, for you to imagine that your mother > > may be a sexual being with erotic desires, and with a body that is her > > own, and which can be naked? Is it a fear of this possibility that > > evokes in you, such strong emotions when you see (or perhaps hear of) > > what some artist has done on a piece of canvas with paint? Is it this > > fear that you will allow to dominate your very imagination of the > > Nation of India? Freudian psychobabble, in other words, offers itself > > up tantalisingly here. Is their Hindu nation structured around an > > Oedipal anxiety over desire for the mother? (ugh!) > > > > The troubling effect of this is of course the denial in nationalist > > discourse of sexualness or rather the right to sexualness of women, as > > after all, the big obligation on the good woman is to become the > > mother of (male) children. This justifies mechanisms of regulation > > over women's sexualness, and the meting out of punishment and > > exclusion to those who fail to live within these boundaries, or > > transgress them at will. The protests against the film Fire being a > > case in point. But how does a woman become a mother (over and over > > again, atleast until she begets a Son), when she is bereft of > > sexualness? Is this an imagination of immaculate conception, or, a > > belief that the only form of legitimate sex is heterosexual rape? The > > point here is that if the metaphor of the Motherland and the lives of > > women must feed into each other, the demand for the recognition of > > sexualness and women's right to sexuality must also address the > > sexualness of the metaphor of Mother India. > > > > This brings me to my last point. I was brought up with a sense of > > patriotism, stories of the freedom struggle, stories of the success of > > Big Nehruvian development and images of Mother India. In fact i > > sometimes still experience a sense of nostalgia for that heady emotion > > of being part of that particular 'something bigger'. (yes, i cried > > when i watched Rang De Basanti). I have, in other words, experienced > > the power of Mother India, and surely all that investment by the state > > into making sure that this experience marks my psyche forever entails > > me to owning the metaphor. I claim the right, in other words to invest > > this metaphor with things. If i bring my travels around India to bear > > on this, i'd say 'Mother India', to me, is one hell of beautiful, > > sensual, sexual, erotic figure, a polymorphous queer body, who laughs, > > flirts, makes love, has soul-baring intense sex. Oh, and, sigh, S/he > > also makes steel. > > > > > > Love, > > > > akshay > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rana at ranadasgupta.com Mon Sep 1 07:07:39 2008 From: rana at ranadasgupta.com (Rana Dasgupta) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 07:07:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Anatomy of a genre - Indian writing in English Message-ID: <48BB4763.60606@ranadasgupta.com> http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/002888.html From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 1 09:12:19 2008 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2008 20:42:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions In-Reply-To: <973551.72221.qm@web53601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <675110.10124.qm@web51410.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Rahul I understand your logic, but I think your alternative no.3 is too idealized and utopian to achieve, although I would love if it works. Also, it may apply only to some situations, not all. For instance, if a group of people thinks that women are inferior and should remain inside homes, or that we should ruin the environment by cutting trees, wasting water and fuel, would you allow them to believe and act on this? You may call it my condescending attitude, but why is it that we have managed to bring an awareness and "reform" today about so many millions of issues in our society which people used to take with orthodox attitude. I am talking about gender equality, environment, education, health issues (although it is still not enough). Nobody is born with politically correct genes - we all acquire things as we grow. So what's the big deal for instance about having arts appreciation as part of the school curriculum or TV programmes. Should we allow our mainstream media to remain condescending then? Why is television changing the attitude of people - why is our society becoming more consumerist and aggressive and prejudiced? Look my condescending solution doesn't involve simply education - I am talking about dialogue and awareness, and not talking down somebody's throat which the TV does today. Yousuf --- On Sun, 8/31/08, Rahul Asthana wrote: > From: Rahul Asthana > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" , ysaeed7 at yahoo.com > Cc: "Sarai list" > Date: Sunday, August 31, 2008, 11:54 PM > Yousuf, > > I think i failed in getting my point across.No amount of > "education" would make Hussein's art > appreciated by some,and those who are offended by > Hussein's art are no less "educated" than you > or me. > Unless you get rid of your condescension about educating > people about what they should or shouldn't get offended > by,any discussion about solution to conflicts like this is a > non-starter. > > I am going to make one last try though. > > Say there are two groups A and B,with different value > systems.A is offended by an act X and B is not,apparently > due to their different value systems. B encourages X and > this increases tensions in a society where A and B live > together.Lets see what are the possible solutions. > > 1.Both A and B tell each other to go take a hike and they > would do according to how they feel fit. > 2.Both A and B are sure that their value systems are > superior and they try to convert each other to their own > view points through dialog etc. > 3.Both A and B recognize that there are irreconcilable > differences in their world views.They also recognize that > they would respect the differences and try to honor them to > the extent possible while also trying to achieve their own > goals through whatever means possible. > > If liberal fanatics like you will keep on engaging in > #2,(which in my opinion is even worse than #1 because #1 > does not involve condescension) that you are doing right > now,you will always enable religious fanatics from the other > side who will try to convert you to their view point.Why is > their stand less valid than yours? > If you engage in #3 ,you will enable moderates from the > other side who will listen to you if you listen to them. > The big leap of understanding that you need to make is that > there can be two internally consistent value systems which > will lead to opposing positions on many issues,and both > these value systems are equally valid. > > Regards > Rahul > > --- On Sun, 8/31/08, Yousuf > wrote: > > > From: Yousuf > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and > Transgressions > > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > , rahul_capri at yahoo.com > > Cc: "Sarai list" > > > Date: Sunday, August 31, 2008, 9:40 AM > > When I mention education, I primarily include media in > it. > > But the media is careless and works only on the > diktats of > > industry and politicians. So the prime responsibility > (of > > making sure that their art is appreciated) falls on > the arts > > fraternity itself. At least until we find a better > solution. > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 8/30/08, Rahul Asthana > > wrote: > > > > > From: Rahul Asthana > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and > > Transgressions > > > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > > , ysaeed7 at yahoo.com > > > Cc: "Sarai list" > > > > > Date: Saturday, August 30, 2008, 9:58 PM > > > "They have not been educated to appreciate > the > > nuances > > > of the medium or the message." > > > Yousuf, I am sorry but that's > condescending.By the > > same > > > token a religious person can say that the artist > has > > not > > > been taught the nuances of religious > sensibilities.My > > point > > > is that if two groups having different values > have to > > > coexist in a society,they have to be tolerant > towards > > each > > > other. > > > I do not advocate any limit to the freedom of > > > expression,but there should not be complete > > callousness > > > towards the feelings of groups.Painters like > Hussein > > and > > > other heretics would always keep producing works > that > > would > > > offend,and perhaps thats necessary too;but if > some of > > the > > > people in the media,and I do not mean the media > which > > > actually represents these groups, can understand > and > > voice > > > their feelings,then emotions would probably not > flare > > up to > > > that extent. > > > That is the middle way. > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 8/30/08, Yousuf > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > From: Yousuf > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and > > > Transgressions > > > > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > > > , rahul_capri at yahoo.com > > > > Cc: "Sarai list" > > > > > > > Date: Saturday, August 30, 2008, 9:31 PM > > > > Dear Rahul > > > > I had difficulty following your first > sentence > > (and a > > > few > > > > others), but yes, to put it in simple > language, > > people > > > have > > > > been offended by Hussain's paintings, > and > > they are > > > not > > > > always at fault. They have not been educated > to > > > appreciate > > > > the nuances of the medium or the message. > And the > > art > > > > fraternity doesn't have the urge to go > to the > > > people and > > > > explain what they do and why they do. The > > politician > > > of > > > > course is too happy to cash in on the > ignorance > > of the > > > > public. > > > > > > > > Incidentally, countless > provocative/blasphemous > > art or > > > > statements have been made in the past but > not all > > of > > > them > > > > led to a public outcry. Almost all known > cases > > where a > > > piece > > > > of art/literature has led to violence, are > those > > where > > > > somebody (or some political party) used them > to > > spread > > > the > > > > flames. In most cases, the protesters > haven't > > seen > > > or > > > > read what they have been protesting against. > > > > > > > > > So, should the artists make such provocative > > works > > > only for > > > > themselves or their closest friends, and > never > > allow > > > them to > > > > go public. Or should they (and their > > institutions) > > > create an > > > > atmosphere of awareness where the public can > > > appreciate > > > > their art and not tear it apart? I don't > find > > a > > > third > > > > alternative. > > > > > > > > Yousuf > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 8/30/08, Rahul Asthana > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: Rahul Asthana > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life > and > > > > Transgressions > > > > > To: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com, > "Shuddhabrata > > > > Sengupta" > > > > > Cc: "Sarai list" > > > > > > > > > Date: Saturday, August 30, 2008, 8:42 > PM > > > > > Dear Yousuf, > > > > > > > > > > I think the classic liberal stand of > > reductionist > > > > > extrapolation,in which one develops > certain > > set > > > of > > > > canonical > > > > > principles and expects them to govern > all > > > discourse on > > > > a > > > > > certain topic, is not necessarily > > philosophically > > > > incorrect > > > > > from their point of view,but > insufficient > > and > > > improper > > > > if we > > > > > want to live in a tolerant liberal > society.I > > will > > > try > > > > to > > > > > elaborate: > > > > > The point is not that Hussein as a > Muslim > > can > > > paint > > > > Hindu > > > > > deities,nude or otherwise or whether > his > > > intention was > > > > to > > > > > insult,or not.The point is also not > that the > > his > > > > paintings > > > > > can be artistic and break new grounds > of > > > expression > > > > > etc.Neither is it the point that he > should > > have > > > the > > > > freedom > > > > > of expression to paint whatever he > wants.The > > > point is > > > > also > > > > > not that the people who attacked him > were > > wrong. > > > > > > > > > > The point that I have been trying to > make is > > that > > > all > > > > the > > > > > above things are true;but still a > painting > > that > > > he has > > > > made > > > > > can be offensive to many people.Now,the > > classic > > > > reductionist > > > > > line here is that,offense is > > > subjective.Obviously,we > > > > > can't be bothered about every > person who > > > takes > > > > offense > > > > > at any random stuff, can we?To that I > would > > say, > > > using > > > > our > > > > > own personal judgment,depending upon > our > > > interactions > > > > with > > > > > people, we can make out most of the > times > > if > > > > something is > > > > > truly offensive to a large group of > people > > or > > > not.If > > > > we > > > > > can't,we should talk to > people.IMHO,I > > > don't > > > > think I > > > > > should take the easy way out of hiding > > behind the > > > > principles > > > > > of freedom of expression and visual > > metaphors > > > etc.We > > > > should > > > > > always support freedom of > expression,but if > > we > > > can > > > > surmise > > > > > that a particular act of art was > done,when > > it was > > > > probably > > > > > apparent that it would hurt the > > sensibilities of > > > a > > > > large > > > > > group of people,we should call it for > > "bad > > > > taste". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we have respect for and engage in > dialog > > with > > > the > > > > > moderates of groups we may not have to > deal > > with > > > the > > > > > extremists. > > > > > > > > > > Dear Shuddha, > > > > > > > > > > I think you mentioned earlier how > religious > > > people > > > > offend > > > > > the sensitivities of atheists.Could you > > please > > > > elaborate? > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > Rahul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 8/30/08, Shuddhabrata > Sengupta > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of > Life > > and > > > > > Transgressions > > > > > > To: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com > > > > > > Cc: "Sarai list" > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Saturday, August 30, 2008, > 2:44 > > AM > > > > > > Dear Yousuf, dear all, > > > > > > > > > > > > thank you very much, Yousuf for > your > > mail. I > > > > really > > > > > > appreciate your > > > > > > point of drawing attention to the > > available > > > > > vocabularies of > > > > > > visual > > > > > > representation and the way in > which > > they > > > > determine or > > > > > > influence the > > > > > > universe of visual > repsesentatiation, > > if > > > only to > > > > > underline > > > > > > the fact > > > > > > that no visual artist is ever > divorced > > from > > > the > > > > > context tat > > > > > > they are > > > > > > born into. I have nowhere written > > about why > > > > Husain > > > > > does > > > > > > not choose > > > > > > to represent themes from the > Islamic > > canon, > > > and I > > > > > totally > > > > > > agree with > > > > > > you that he does not do so because > they > > are > > > not > > > > > available > > > > > > to him in > > > > > > his cultural miieu, > > > > > > > > > > > > As for apparently transgressive > cases > > like > > > > Husain or > > > > > Dillu > > > > > > Ram > > > > > > Kausari, I cannnot see why they > should > > not b > > > > > celebrated. > > > > > > Hindus > > > > > > should honour Husain and Muslims > should > > > honour > > > > Dillu > > > > > Ram. > > > > > > In this way > > > > > > they would ensure that acts of > > 'road > > > > crossing' > > > > > need > > > > > > not necessarily > > > > > > end in lethal accidents, > > > > > > > > > > > > warm regards, and hoping for many > more > > road > > > > crossings, > > > > > > > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 29-Aug-08, at 8:25 PM, Yousuf > Saeed > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Shuddha, others > > > > > > > I really appreciate your > > highlighting > > > of the > > > > fact > > > > > that > > > > > > Hussain's > > > > > > > intention may not be of > insulting > > the > > > Hindus > > > > by > > > > > > drawing the deities > > > > > > > in the nude or otherwise. I > am not > > a > > > > defender of > > > > > > Hussain, but would > > > > > > > like to put across a few > points. > > Many > > > people > > > > (on > > > > > this > > > > > > list and > > > > > > > elsewhere) have pointed out > that > > > Hussain > > > > never > > > > > drew > > > > > > any Muslim > > > > > > > character (such as the > Prophet) in > > this > > > > manner, > > > > > and > > > > > > therefore his > > > > > > > intention must be to insult > the > > Hindus. > > > They > > > > also > > > > > say > > > > > > that such an > > > > > > > act by any artist in a Muslim > > country > > > (like > > > > Saudi > > > > > > Arabia) would > > > > > > > result in death penalty, and > so > > on. But > > > > maybe > > > > > Hussain > > > > > > did not draw > > > > > > > an Islamic character in an > > > > "immodest" > > > > > > posture simply because such > > > > > > > an image or icon doesn’t > exist > > in the > > > > > Islam's > > > > > > visualcultural > > > > > > > tradition. If he does it, > then > > that > > > would be > > > > > > deliberately > > > > > > > provocative (although I am > not > > saying > > > it > > > > > shouldn't > > > > > > be done). But he > > > > > > > could draw a Hindu deity in > the > > nude > > > because > > > > such > > > > > a > > > > > > tradition > > > > > > > exists in our Indian visual > > culture. I > > > doubt > > > > if > > > > > he > > > > > > avoids > > > > > > > the depiction of Muslim > themes > > because > > > he > > > > is > > > > > scared > > > > > > of the > > > > > > > Islamists. Maybe he simply > > can't > > > relate > > > > to it > > > > > as > > > > > > an Indian. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If I as an artist cannot > express > > my > > > certain > > > > > feelings > > > > > > in the > > > > > > > language that has been taught > to > > be me > > > by my > > > > > parents, > > > > > > and I > > > > > > > suddenly discover a new > language > > that > > > allows > > > > me > > > > > to > > > > > > express that > > > > > > > peculiar feeling in a much > better > > way > > > than > > > > what > > > > > my > > > > > > mother tongue > > > > > > > did, I would be happy to use > the > > new > > > > language. > > > > > There > > > > > > are thousands > > > > > > > of poets and artists who > found a > > new > > > way of > > > > > expression > > > > > > in a > > > > > > > language which every one in > their > > midst > > > had > > > > found > > > > > > "inferior" – I am > > > > > > > talking for example of the > > tradition of > > > > Persian > > > > > poets > > > > > > of South Asia > > > > > > > who also wrote verses in > Hindi or > > > Hinduvi. > > > > While > > > > > poets > > > > > > such as > > > > > > > Masud Sa'd Salman, Amir > > Khusrau, > > > > Abdurrahim > > > > > > Khane-khana, Ghalib, or > > > > > > > Iqbal became famous for their > > exquisite > > > > verse in > > > > > > Persian, their > > > > > > > heart pours out better in > their > > > Hinduvi, > > > > Urdu or > > > > > Braj > > > > > > poetry where > > > > > > > they can come down to the > earth > > from > > > the > > > > lofty > > > > > royal > > > > > > palaces. We > > > > > > > often say, "Unki Hindi > > shayeri > > > mein > > > > mitti ki > > > > > > khushbu aati hai" (one > > > > > > > can smell the earth in their > > vernacular > > > > poetry). > > > > > And I > > > > > > > think Hussain is no > different > > from > > > them. He > > > > > cannot > > > > > > draw an Islamic > > > > > > > character in the nude because > > it's > > > > probably > > > > > not in > > > > > > his palette, or > > > > > > > doesn't touch his heart. > (And > > we > > > cannot > > > > force > > > > > him > > > > > > to do it to > > > > > > > become more politically > correct). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You may say that a lot of > > > semi-pornographic > > > > > scenes > > > > > > have been drawn > > > > > > > in Mughal or Persian > miniatures, > > and he > > > > could > > > > > have > > > > > > followed that. > > > > > > > But that's not the point. > > Hindu > > > deities > > > > are > > > > > > flexible enough for us > > > > > > > to turn them around the way > we > > wish, to > > > > express a > > > > > > certain feeling > > > > > > > that cannot be expressed any > other > > way. > > > So > > > > why > > > > > not > > > > > > appreciate and > > > > > > > celebrate that fact. (I know > such > > a > > > > statement > > > > > from me > > > > > > might raise > > > > > > > some eyebrows). I maybe a > Muslim > > but I > > > > appreciate > > > > > the > > > > > > fact that you > > > > > > > can literally play with many > Hindu > > > deities. > > > > Just > > > > > the > > > > > > other day I > > > > > > > heard Pandit Jasraj sing a > khayal > > in > > > which > > > > the > > > > > lyrics > > > > > > repeatedly > > > > > > > referred to Krishna as a chor > > (thief). > > > Does > > > > that > > > > > > insult a Hindu? Or > > > > > > > would it insult a Hindu if > this > > khayal > > > was > > > > sung > > > > > by > > > > > > Ustad Amir Khan? > > > > > > > (Incidentally, a large number > of > > > traditional > > > > > Hindu > > > > > > devotional > > > > > > > lyrics sung in classical > music > > have > > > reached > > > > us > > > > > via > > > > > > Muslim gharana > > > > > > > musicians, and much of > devotional > > Hindu > > > > visual > > > > > > mythology has come > > > > > > > to us via patwa artists of > Bengal > > who > > > are > > > > > > > all Muslim. Can M.F.Hussain > be > > > detached > > > > from > > > > > that > > > > > > continuity?) > > > > > > > Much of the popular calendar > and > > poster > > > art > > > > of > > > > > 20th > > > > > > century showing > > > > > > > Hindu deities was drawn by an > > artist > > > called > > > > Hasan > > > > > Raza > > > > > > Raja of > > > > > > > Meerut. And the manner in > which > > most > > > Hindu > > > > > deities are > > > > > > visualized > > > > > > > today comes from the > pioneering > > work of > > > Raja > > > > Ravi > > > > > > Varma who was > > > > > > > clearly inspired by western > style > > of > > > art > > > > where > > > > > human > > > > > > models were > > > > > > > used to visualize the gods > and > > > goddesses. > > > > So, > > > > > does all > > > > > > this insult > > > > > > > the Hindus? And what is the > > > > "original" > > > > > Hindu > > > > > > way of imagining the > > > > > > > deities any way? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I liked your quoting from > Kausari > > who > > > is > > > > among > > > > > many > > > > > > Hindu poets who > > > > > > > have written/announced their > > emotive > > > > affiliation > > > > > with > > > > > > Prophet > > > > > > > Mohammad in the same way as > say > > with > > > > Krishna. I > > > > > doubt > > > > > > if such > > > > > > > actions in the past may have > met > > with > > > much > > > > > resistance > > > > > > (as you have > > > > > > > mentioned) – such examples > were > > a > > > norm. > > > > There > > > > > are > > > > > > many Hindu poets > > > > > > > who have written marsiyas > full of > > > pathos for > > > > Imam > > > > > > Hussain's > > > > > > > martyrdom, and many Muslim > poets > > who > > > > composed > > > > > adorable > > > > > > songs for > > > > > > > Krishna. I don't think it > was > > too > > > hard > > > > to > > > > > cross > > > > > > the road in those > > > > > > > days. So, why are we busy > throwing > > > stones > > > > onto > > > > > each > > > > > > other from the > > > > > > > two sides of a road? I could > > imagine > > > that at > > > > > least an > > > > > > online forum > > > > > > > like Sarai could act like a > subway > > or a > > > > walk-over > > > > > > bridge to cross > > > > > > > the busy highway. But > currently it > > > seems > > > > more > > > > > like a > > > > > > road-block. > > > > > > > And we are all paying the > toll. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yousuf > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 8/29/08, > Shuddhabrata > > > Sengupta > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> From: Shuddhabrata > Sengupta > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Subject: [Reader-list] > Ways of > > Life > > > and > > > > > > Transgressions > > > > > > >> To: "Sarai > list" > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Date: Friday, August 29, > 2008, > > 1:31 > > > PM > > > > > > >> Dear All, > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> I have been intrigued by > the > > > exchange on > > > > the > > > > > list > > > > > > of late > > > > > > >> that has > > > > > > >> preferred to jettison the > term > > > > > 'religion' > > > > > > and > > > > > > >> prefer in its stead the > > > > > > >> euphimistic phrase - > 'ways > > of > > > > life'. > > > > > I am > > > > > > referring > > > > > > >> to the exchange > > > > > > >> between Chanchal Malviya > and > > > Jeebesh > > > > Bagchi, > > > > > > arising out of > > > > > > >> the > > > > > > >> heated correspondence on > the > > > disruption > > > > of a > > > > > small > > > > > > >> exhibition devoted > > > > > > >> to M.F.Husain. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> i am quite convinced that > the > > term > > > > > > 'religion' > > > > > > >> which derives from the > > > > > > >> latin root of the word > religio > > > (bond) > > > > and > > > > > religare > > > > > > (the > > > > > > >> verb form of > > > > > > >> 'to bind') > remains for > > me a > > > > useful > > > > > word to > > > > > > name the > > > > > > >> act of committing > > > > > > >> oneself in any form. In > this > > sense, > > > > atheists > > > > > and > > > > > > agnostics > > > > > > >> are just > > > > > > >> as religious (in their > > commitment > > > to > > > > doubt) > > > > > as are > > > > > > those > > > > > > >> blessed with > > > > > > >> faith. I would describe > my > > > religious > > > > > commitment as > > > > > > >> agnosticism - a > > > > > > >> commitment to doubt > > everything, > > > > (including > > > > > the > > > > > > value of > > > > > > >> doubt) and a > > > > > > >> certainty that we cannot > speak > > > certainly > > > > of > > > > > > anything at > > > > > > >> all, because > > > > > > >> there are always > > counterfactuals, > > > and > > > > > hitherto > > > > > > unimagined, > > > > > > >> or unknown > > > > > > >> possibilities, that goad > us on > > to > > > yet > > > > newer > > > > > > possibilities, > > > > > > >> or to > > > > > > >> return to some very old > ones. > > This > > > is > > > > just to > > > > > say > > > > > > that it > > > > > > >> would be a > > > > > > >> mistake to assume, as is > often > > done > > > with > > > > some > > > > > > arrogance on > > > > > > >> the part > > > > > > >> of the more pronouncedly > > > > 'faithful', > > > > > that > > > > > > atheists > > > > > > >> and agnostics have > > > > > > >> no 'spiritual' > quests. > > They > > > do, > > > > and > > > > > they > > > > > > dont, just > > > > > > >> as those who are > > > > > > >> ostentatiously > > 'religious' > > > do, > > > > and > > > > > dont, > > > > > > or do only > > > > > > >> in as much as it > > > > > > >> allows them to burn a few > > churches > > > as > > > > they go > > > > > > questing. If > > > > > > >> Hindu > > > > > > >> fundamentalists have > chosen to > > > renounce > > > > the > > > > > ties > > > > > > that bind > > > > > > >> (religio) > > > > > > >> them to life, who would I > be > > to > > > object, > > > > > because, I > > > > > > am not a > > > > > > >> Hindu. > > > > > > >> But I have no quarrel > with the > > term > > > > 'ways > > > > > of > > > > > > life'. > > > > > > >> The more words we > > > > > > >> have, the better. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> This discussion arose out > of a > > rage > > > felt > > > > by > > > > > some > > > > > > that a > > > > > > >> group of > > > > > > >> zealots had broken and > > disrupted an > > > > > exhibition > > > > > > that > > > > > > >> featured some > > > > > > >> images of and by Husain, > and > > the > > > counter > > > > rage > > > > > felt > > > > > > by > > > > > > >> others that the > > > > > > >> zealots had no right to > be > > > criticised > > > > because > > > > > they > > > > > > were > > > > > > >> acting to > > > > > > >> protect the honour of the > > Hindu > > > deities > > > > that > > > > > they > > > > > > felt > > > > > > >> Husain had > > > > > > >> insulted. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> The second case is as > follows > > - > > > what > > > > right > > > > > has > > > > > > Husain, a > > > > > > >> Muslim to > > > > > > >> insult Hindu deities by > > portraying > > > them > > > > in a > > > > > > manner that is > > > > > > >> offensive > > > > > > >> to the sentiments of many > > Hindus. > > > > > (Husain's > > > > > > >> motivations, or the > > > > > > >> aesthetic merit of his > images > > are > > > not > > > > the > > > > > issue > > > > > > here, what > > > > > > >> is at > > > > > > >> issue is the insult seen > to > > have > > > > occurred > > > > > when a > > > > > > non-Hindu > > > > > > >> 'touches' > > > > > > >> a sacred Hindu icon with > his > > > > > 'insulting' > > > > > > >> imagination. Those so > > > > > > >> enraged, also throw the > > following > > > > challenge, > > > > > has > > > > > > the > > > > > > >> opposite ever > > > > > > >> occurred? > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> I am not here to make a > case > > for > > > Husain. > > > > (As > > > > > I > > > > > > have said > > > > > > >> before I do > > > > > > >> not have a very high > opinion > > of his > > > work > > > > as > > > > > an > > > > > > artist). I > > > > > > >> am here to > > > > > > >> make a case for what is > > considered > > > to be > > > > > > transgression. No > > > > > > >> one can be > > > > > > >> sure when they have > > transgressed. > > > > Because > > > > > > transgression can > > > > > > >> be seen > > > > > > >> to occur even when the > motives > > of > > > the > > > > person > > > > > > concerned are > > > > > > >> far from > > > > > > >> transgression. Husain can > say > > in > > > his > > > > defence, > > > > > and > > > > > > indeed > > > > > > >> has on > > > > > > >> occasion said that his > > paintings > > > are an > > > > index > > > > > of > > > > > > his > > > > > > >> appreciation of > > > > > > >> Indic culture and its > > diversity of > > > > > expressions, of > > > > > > his > > > > > > >> closeness > > > > > > >> (since early childhood) > to > > forms of > > > > iconic > > > > > imagery > > > > > > in > > > > > > >> popular Hinduism. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Here his intent is > clearly not > > to > > > > insult, on > > > > > the > > > > > > contrary, > > > > > > >> it is to > > > > > > >> declare his appreciation > for > > the > > > beauty > > > > of > > > > > the > > > > > > iconography > > > > > > >> of popular > > > > > > >> Hinduism, a charge for > which > > he > > > would be > > > > > equally > > > > > > hated by > > > > > > >> both Hindu > > > > > > >> as well as Muslim > > fundamentalists. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> It has not been noticed > that > > no > > > Muslim > > > > > > fundamentalist or > > > > > > >> even Muslim > > > > > > >> religious figure has come > out > > in > > > defence > > > > of > > > > > > Husain. They > > > > > > >> are in fact > > > > > > >> in tacit agreement with > their > > Hindu > > > > peers. A > > > > > > Muslim making > > > > > > >> images, > > > > > > >> and that too of Hindu > > goddesses, > > > because > > > > he > > > > > is > > > > > > drawn to > > > > > > >> them, can > > > > > > >> only be seen as blasphemy > in > > their > > > eyes. > > > > On > > > > > this, > > > > > > like on > > > > > > >> so many > > > > > > >> other issues, Hindu and > Muslim > > > > > fundamentalists are > > > > > > in total > > > > > > >> agreement. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Let me come now to an > > interesting > > > > > counterfactual > > > > > > argument. > > > > > > >> I refer to > > > > > > >> the life an work of a > little > > known > > > late > > > > > nineteenth > > > > > > century > > > > > > >> and early > > > > > > >> twentieth century Urdu > poet of > > > Delhi > > > > called > > > > > Dillu > > > > > > Ram > > > > > > >> Kausari. Now as > > > > > > >> his name suggests, Dillu > Ram > > was a > > > > Hindu. The > > > > > > trouble is, > > > > > > >> throughout > > > > > > >> his life he composed > > deliriously > > > > passionate > > > > > > elegies > > > > > > >> (na'at) to the > > > > > > >> Prophet Muhammad. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> One of his quatrains went > as > > > follows > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Kuch ‘ishq e Muhammad > mein > > nahin > > > shart > > > > e > > > > > > Musulman! > > > > > > >> Hai Kausari Hindu bhii > > talabgaar e > > > > Muhammad! > > > > > > >> Allah re! kyaa raunaq e > bazaar > > e > > > > Muhammad > > > > > > >> Ke Ma’bood e Jahan bhi > hai > > > kharidaar e > > > > > Muhammad! > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Being a Muslim is not a > > condition > > > for > > > > loving > > > > > > Muhammad! > > > > > > >> Kausari, the Hindu, is > also a > > > seeker of > > > > > Muhammad! > > > > > > >> By Allah! How delightful > is > > the > > > bazaar > >> > of > > > > > Muhammad > > > > > > >> For the Lord of the > Worlds is > > also > > > a > > > > buyer of > > > > > > Muhammad! > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> This kind of sentiment > shocked > > both > > > > Hindus > > > > > and > > > > > > Muslims. > > > > > > >> Hindus, > > > > > > >> because how could a Hindu > sing > > what > > > > amounted > > > > > to > > > > > > love songs > > > > > > >> to a > > > > > > >> Muslim prophet, and > Muslims, > > for > > > the > > > > same > > > > > reason. > > > > > > Both felt > > > > > > >> slighted > > > > > > >> and insulted by the > > transgressive > > > way in > > > > > which the > > > > > > >> imagination of the > > > > > > >> poet had > 'touched' the > > body > > > of > > > > what > > > > > was > > > > > > sacred for > > > > > > >> one, and not, for > > > > > > >> the other. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Another poem, which > proved to > > be > > > even > > > > more > > > > > > controversial, > > > > > > >> went like > > > > > > >> this - > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Rahmatulilalamin kay > Hashar > > mein > > > > maana’ > > > > > khulay > > > > > > >> Khalq saari Shaafa e Roz > e > > Jaza kay > > > > saath hai > > > > > > >> Laykay Dillu Raam ko > jannat > > mein > > > jab > > > > Hazrat > > > > > gaye > > > > > > >> Ma’loom huwa kay Hindu > bhi > > > Mahboob e > > > > Khuda > > > > > kay > > > > > > saath hai! > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> The meaning of “Mercy > unto > > the > > > > Worlds” > > > > > became > > > > > > apparent > > > > > > >> on Judgement Day: > > > > > > >> The whole creation is > with the > > > > Intercessor of > > > > > The > > > > > > Day of > > > > > > >> Acquittal > > > > > > >> When the Prophet took > Dillu > > Ram > > > with him > > > > into > > > > > > Paradise > > > > > > >> It was known that this > Hindu > > too is > > > with > > > > the > > > > > > Beloved of > > > > > > >> God! > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> This poem, especially > > scandalized > > > Muslim > > > > > > orthodoxy, because > > > > > > >> it dared > > > > > > >> to suggest that the > prophet > > himself > > > > would > > > > > > intercede on > > > > > > >> behalf of an > > > > > > >> unbeliever on the day of > > judgement. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> It is interesting to note > that > > > Dillu Ram > > > > > never > > > > > > became a > > > > > > >> Muslim, at > > > > > > >> least not in his > lifetime. An > > > article in > > > > the > > > > > > interesting > > > > > > >> web portal > > > > > > >> Chowk > > > > http://www.chowk.com/articles/12692 by > > > > > one > > > > > > Asif > > > > > > >> Naqshbandi says > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> "It is also said > that > > Dillu > > > Ram, > > > > > delirious > > > > > > with his > > > > > > >> love, would > > > > > > >> sometimes stand in the > middle > > of > > > the > > > > bazaar > > > > > in > > > > > > Delhi, put > > > > > > >> chains > > > > > > >> around his neck and feet > and > > shout > > > at > > > > the top > > > > > of > > > > > > his voice > > > > > > >> to all > > > > > > >> passers-by, “Muhammad! > > Muhammad! > > > > Muhammad! > > > > > Yes! > > > > > > Muhammad > > > > > > >> is the > > > > > > >> Beloved of God! Muhammad > is > > the > > > first > > > > and > > > > > only > > > > > > Beloved of > > > > > > >> God! If God > > > > > > >> loves you, He loves you > > because of > > > His > > > > > Beloved!” > > > > > > Some > > > > > > >> people even > > > > > > >> stoned him and he would > often > > come > > > home > > > > > covered in > > > > > > blood > > > > > > >> but he was > > > > > > >> totally lost in his love > of > > the > > > Prophet > > > > > (peace and > > > > > > >> blessings be upon > > > > > > >> him!)" > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> There is an apocryphal > story > > of how > > > on > > > > his > > > > > > deathbed Dillu > > > > > > >> Ram Kausari > > > > > > >> had a vision of the > Prophet > > > himself, who > > > > came > > > > > to > > > > > > him, and > > > > > > >> that he > > > > > > >> read the Kalima with him. > But > > as > > > this > > > > vision > > > > > is > > > > > > reported to > > > > > > >> have > > > > > > >> appeared only to him, as > he > > lay > > > dying, > > > > and as > > > > > he > > > > > > is no > > > > > > >> longer with us > > > > > > >> to either confirm or deny > this > > > deathbed > > > > > > conversion, we can > > > > > > >> only > > > > > > >> surmise that it was a > > generous, but > > > > somewhat > > > > > > disingenuous > > > > > > >> method of > > > > > > >> having Dillu Ram's > > somewhat > > > > unorthodox > > > > > Muslim > > > > > > >> apologists claim him > > > > > > >> for themselves. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> As far as we are > concerned, > > Dillu > > > Ram > > > > > Kausari, > > > > > > caused grave > > > > > > >> offence, > > > > > > >> by his love for the > Prophet, > > both > > > to > > > > Hindu as > > > > > well > > > > > > as to > > > > > > >> Muslim > > > > > > >> zealots, as long as he > lived. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> If, the things we call > > religions > > > are > > > > > 'ways of > > > > > > life' > > > > > > >> then we can > > > > > > >> always determine for > ourselves > > > whether > > > > we > > > > > want to > > > > > > walk on a > > > > > > >> one way > > > > > > >> street that runs into a > dead > > end, > > > or to > > > > cross > > > > > many > > > > > > paths, > > > > > > >> walking > > > > > > >> down one way, for one > purpose, > > down > > > > another > > > > > way > > > > > > for > > > > > > >> another, and > > > > > > >> sometimes just standing > in > > between > > > > paths, > > > > > figuring > > > > > > out our > > > > > > >> journey, > > > > > > >> as we go about our lives. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> I find cases like Husain > and > > Dillu > > > Ram > > > > > Kausari > > > > > > interesting > > > > > > >> not > > > > > > >> because of what they > paint of > > what > > > they > > > > say, > > > > > but > > > > > > because > > > > > > >> they seem to > > > > > > >> cause such prolonged > traffic > > jams > > > on the > > > > > 'ways > > > > > > of > > > > > > >> life'. And all they > > > > > > >> were doing was crossing > the > > road. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> thanks and regards, > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Shuddha > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> ----- > > > > > > >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > >> reader-list: an open > > discussion > > > list on > > > > media > > > > > and > > > > > > the city. > > > > > > >> Critiques & > Collaborations > > > > > > >> To subscribe: send an > email to > > > > > > >> > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with > > > > subscribe > > > > > in > > > > > > the subject > > > > > > >> header. > > > > > > >> To unsubscribe: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > >> List archive: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > reader-list: an open > discussion > > list on > > > > media and > > > > > the > > > > > > city. > > > > > > > Critiques & > Collaborations > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email > to > > > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject > header. > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > > > > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > > > > > Raqs Media Collective > > > > > > shuddha at sarai.net > > > > > > www.sarai.net > > > > > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion > list on > > > media and > > > > the > > > > > city. > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe > > > in > > > > the > > > > > subject > > > > > > header. > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Mon Sep 1 10:07:48 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 10:07:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Bihar Floods - How You Can Help Message-ID: <6b79f1a70808312137w5b7cbceex2e27bd9ee84f3265@mail.gmail.com> http://removing.blogspot.com/2008/08/bihar-floods-how-to-help.html SUNDAY, AUGUST 31, 2008 If you want to help Bihar Flood Victims, here is some useful information. I mailed Flood Help Desk by Hindustan Times Patna and this is the transcript of their reply: * *Hindustan Flood Help Desk The procedure to help out flood victims you can opt any of the following options: 1) If you want to deposit cash you can do it through core Banking – SBI Secretariat Branch, Patna ACCOUNT NO- 10839124928 2) Demand Draft & Cheque can be made in the name of Mukhya Mantri Rahat Kosh,Bihar (Payable at Patna.) Address for sending your demand draft & cheque is - Mukhya Mantri Rahat Kosh, c/o Mukhya Mantri Sachivalaya, 4 K.G. Desh Ratan Marg, Patna. For Polythene sheets , Tents, clothes and other materials: * You can call to Apadha Prabandan Vibhag Control Room. Phone Numbers: 0612-2217305, 2215027, 6452572 * You can give your things to Red Cross society, which is engaged in helping the flood victims. * In Patna you can contact the Deputy Collector Mr. Parvez Alam. His no. is 9431185767 Note – Please don't give food packets as polithin sheets, tents , clothes, cash are urgently required. From iram at sarai.net Mon Sep 1 10:39:21 2008 From: iram at sarai.net (Iram Ghufran) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 10:39:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] FWD: Christopher Pinney: Lecture @ JNU Message-ID: <48BB7901.706@sarai.net> Subject: Christopher Pinney: Lecture @ JNU From: "Aarti Sethi" Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2008 20:48:23 +0530 To: announcements at sarai.net =============================== School of Arts and Aesthetics Jawaharlal Nehru University Presents Designer Discontent and Gandhigiri: Bhagat Singh and M.K. Gandhi in Popular Visual Culture An Illustrated PublicTalk by Christopher Pinney Visiting Crowe Professor, Department of Art History, North Western University, Chicago At the SAA Auditorium Friday 5th September, 4 p.m All are Welcome -- Ranjani Mazumdar Associate Professor Cinema Studies School of Arts and Aesthetics Jawaharlal Nehru University New Delhi 110067 http://www.jnu.ac.in/SAA/ _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From rajeshr at csds.in Mon Sep 1 13:30:05 2008 From: rajeshr at csds.in (Rajesh Ramakrishnan) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 13:30:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] `Mining and SEZs in Goa'- talk by Sebastian Rodrigues at CSDS Message-ID: Friday, 5th September 2008 Mining and SEZs in Goa Talk by Sebastian Rodrigues at 11 AM at the Seminar Room, Centre for the Study of Developing Societies (CSDS), 29, Rajpur Road, Delhi 110 054. Sebastian Rodrigues is the coordinator of Mand, an adivasi rights resource centre of the Gawda, Kunbi, Velip and Dhangar Federation (GAKUVED). Gawdas, Kunbis, Velips and Dhangars are indigenous communities of Goa. The Federation argues that the model of `development' promoted by the State and Central Governments threatens the lives and livelihoods of the indigenous people of Goa. It has been actively resisting illegal mining and SEZs. From lalitambardar at hotmail.com Mon Sep 1 15:46:18 2008 From: lalitambardar at hotmail.com (Lalit Ambardar) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 10:16:18 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] terror in kashmir: what the news wont tell you In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0808311535r7f4fb66el438c71ca1eb0ead8@mail.gmail.com> References: <48c2916d0808311535r7f4fb66el438c71ca1eb0ead8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Typical propaganda .Yes, curfew does mean putting restrictions & is a legitimate measure employed in apprehension of breach of peace. If only authorities had imposed curfew on the eve of Muzafarabad march & disallowed religious fervour driven mobilisation of credulous Kashmiri Muslim masses, possibly loss of a few lives could have been prevented. It is amazing that all these self declared Kashmiri Muslim separatist leaders are turning out to be medically sick now... ..??? In any case their health has always been taken care of by the Govt. of India & they have been assisted in availing of the best of the medical facilities & treatment. Sayyad Ali Shah Jillani was airlifted in a state owned aircraft from Ranchi jail to Mumbai for treatment not very long ago & Yassin Mallik has been allowed to seek treatment in USA. Rest be assured these guys are being looked after well at the expanse of the taxpayers. It is the common masses who have to suffer because of these opportunists. LA > Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 04:05:24 +0530> From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com> To: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: [Reader-list] terror in kashmir: what the news wont tell you> > Dear All,> > Shivam posted these on kafila today. I thought they should also be shared> with this list. Please take the time to go through them. They made my blood> run cold. I think everyone would do well to ask themselves if any cause, no> matter how dear they hold it, would justify this violence in their names.> Because this is being done in our names, everyone one of us who carry Indian> passports, everyone of us who pay taxes, everyone one of us who voted in the> elections that formed this government. If this violence is the "means" to> the end of keeping kashmir with India, then perhaps it is time even for> passionate nationalists to ask whether it is worth it to see yourselves> brutalized beyond recognition, to make you complicit in this brutality> beyond comprehension.> > Aarti> > ng mother not spared during> curfew> > CRPF administers 'patriotic' dose to 56-yr> old> > Crippling curfew devastates fruit> industry> > Sikh Youth thrashed by Samiti supporters> > > 'Dangerous conspiracy to give communal color to> movement'> > While we were gagged> 8 Killed, Hundreds Injured In 7 Days, Massive Clampdown On Valley> > Where are pro-freedom> leaders?> Geelani's Son-In-Law Seeks Red Cross' Intervention> > Curfew relaxed, not> beating> 'It is terrorism in uniform'> > Yeh BBC London Ki Urdu Service> Hai> News starved Kashmiris tune into popular radio program of 90's in curfew> > Tangmarg Imam goes missing> > > Curfew revives water transport on> Jhelum> > AMK condemns demand for ban on Kashir channel> > > Hindu chauvinist derails Mumbai citizens' sit-in> > > Azaadi echo in Delhi> > Civil right activists favour Kashmir independence> > Steep rise in CRPF battalions in Valley> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Want to explore the world? Visit MSN Travel for the best deals. http://in.msn.com/coxandkings From jeebesh at sarai.net Mon Sep 1 17:47:38 2008 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 17:47:38 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] ways of life...contd. Message-ID: <7C9A5A88-6EB0-4667-B933-9E720073CBA8@sarai.net> Here is a brief paragraph from a e-book on canada. from http://www43.statcan.ca/01/01b/01b_001_e.htm "Ways of life In Canada, as the ice sheets retreated and life re-emerged, groups of humans gradually began to occupy the entire land mass, up to the northernmost regions. For more than 10,000 years, they developed original cultures and ways of life suited to their environment. Then, a few centuries ago, the Europeans arrived, bringing with them a culture that was the product of long development in another—and very different—world. In the beginning, their relationship to this 'new' territory was dictated strictly by European needs for fish, furs and wood. However, those who settled in Canada eventually developed ways of living that combined the lifestyles and cultures of both the Old World and the Aboriginal peoples. Then, some decades ago, Canadian society fell into step with other developed countries in a frenzied race to produce and consume. It has since achieved one of the highest standards of living in the world, but at the price of considerable stress on the environment." Nothing extraordinary. Many in this lists will find affinity with various permutation of this narrative. The actors will change with different circumstances. The end may be in various degrees of incompletion or with various degree of wounds. The question around "ways of life" is understood well when we : i) assume an homogeneity, ii) or a critique of environmental degradation iii) or marketing new developments in lifestyle or real estate It attracts. But to think through the question of "ways of life" in an heterogeneous environment will be next big intellectual challenge. This to my own understanding canNOT be done within the rubric orchestrated around the closed and numbing constellation of state, nation, religion, and industry. This constellation almost makes it impossible to think among others : - how we resolve and live conflicts in our daily life (only a small fraction of our daily conflicts reaches the courts!) - how to belong or not to belong or imagine multiple belongings or not to belong - how we makes draw spiritual resources to live with our bafflement, wonderment and mysteries - how to rethink our relation to our body and that amazing great mass called nature....... warmly jeebesh From mail at shivamvij.com Mon Sep 1 18:22:50 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 18:22:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Habba Kadal: Public Anger Forces Troopers To Apologize Message-ID: <9c06aab30809010552i5753d148i578b2da023f22a20@mail.gmail.com> Protests in Habba Kadal against CRPF Public Anger Forces Troopers To Apologize ARIF SHAFI WANI Srinagar, Aug 31: http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=1_9_2008&ItemID=28&cat=1 Continuing with its beating spree, the troopers of paramilitary CRPF thrashed many people, including a youth at Habba Kadal and its adjoining areas during the curfew relaxation on Sunday. The incident triggered massive demonstrations against the troopers with people demanding action against them. However, the situation was prevented for escalation after the CRPF tendered apology to the locals and promised against the accused troopers. The trouble began when the troopers allegedly thrashed a youth, Abdul Rauf, who was on way to local masjid at Habba Kadal Chowk. As the news about the incident spread, hundreds of people took to streets and staged demonstrations against the CRPF. "I was walking towards the masjid when the troopers started to severely thrash me with batons. I told them that there is no curfew still they continued to beat me. I was rescued by the policemen otherwise the troopers would have killed me," said Abdul Rauf while showing bruises on his body. Shouting pro-freedom and anti-CRPF slogans, the protesters accused the erring troopers of harassment. "The troopers don't allow us even to offer congregation prayers during the curfew relaxation period. This is sheer interference in our religious matters. To protest against the incident, we have locked the masjid. We won't tolerate anybody who stops us for offering prayers," the angry protesters added. As the protesters started to march towards the troopers, a police team led by station house officer of Habba Kadal, Zahoor Ahmad reached the spot. "I will take action against the accused troopers but don't take law into your hands," the SHO told the protesters. However, they refused to disperse. "The troopers have made our lives a hell. They have been abusing and harassing us for past many weeks just to avenge our peaceful protests against the economic blockade. This is sheer hooliganism. Take action against the troopers otherwise we will not move from the road," the protesters told the SHO. Situation took an ugly turn when some youth exchanged heated arguments with the CRPF troopers. "You can't suppress our movement. We want freedom from your terror and are ready to sacrifice our lives for it," the youth shouted at the nervous looking troopers. In the meantime, an armored vehicle of CRPF zoomed into the locality to disperse the protesters. But the protesters stood their ground. "Don't move even if he opens fire," said an aged man while pointing towards a troopers with machine gun on the armored vehicle. Sensing gravity of the situation, senior police and CRPF officials reached the spot. "Your safety is our priority. We will look into the matter," DSP, Zulfikar told the protesters. As the protesters refused to disperse, a CRPF officer apologized for the incident. "I apologize for the any kind of inconvenience you faced because of my troopers. I assure you action against the accused troopers and promise that this kind of incident won't be repeated," the CRPF officer with folded hands told the protesters. Later the protesters peacefully dispersed. Reports said the troopers beat up many people in various parts of Shehr-e-Khas who ventured out to buy eatable during curfew relaxation. Pertinent to mention that during the past week there have been many incident where troopers without any provocation thrashed the people mainly during the curfew relaxation hours. From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 1 18:37:24 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 06:07:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Husain Exhibition Attacked in Delhi In-Reply-To: <77aa94900808311538m7355731bi48ce51ab29f23c65@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <936490.14064.qm@web57209.mail.re3.yahoo.com> (What I state can be easily contested and dismissed. Many comments/interpretations would be my own and might not be consonant with what is generally accepted or preached. It also has nothing to do with the MF Hussain controversy )   (TEXTS refers to "Hindu" Texts)   - It might be difficult to equate OM with infinity and/or with BRAHMAN 'the all encompassing and unencompassed' (different from the Brahma of the Trinity or Brahmin the societal group or the Texts called Brahmanas)   - The Vedas apparently refer to OM as "Nada Brahma". Here BRAHMA is from the Trinity of Brahma, Vishnu, Mahesha.   - Brahma is the aspect known as CREATION (deified as the Creator). This CREATION is particular to dimensions that we humans are familiar with and recognise and that lead us to believe that we 'exist'. Brahma is not 'infinite' in the sense of being 'all encompassing' and 'unencompassed'. Brahma is not "God the Absolute". It is only an aspect.    - The Vedas (predating any other Text) are considered to be from the SHRUTI group of Texts. Shruti is that "which is heard" also interpreted as "revealed". It stands to reason that OM had an aural recognition (as a sound) much before any interpretative meanings ascribed to it's written form.  OM is monosyllabic.     - OM as 'Nada Brahma' is often called the Celestial Sound or Primordial Sound. It is the 'sound of Brahma', the sound associated with the aspect called Brahma, the aspect of CREATION (particular to dimensions recognisable by humans). To put it simply, OM then becomes the sound associated with the Universe getting created. Universe again is particular to human recognition, sometimes called the 'known Universe'.    - All that is contained in the Universe as we humans know of it has the aspects of Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesha - something gets Created, it has a Life Span, and then it Ends in the form/state that it existed in. Nothing ends in absolute terms. It only alters/dissipates. Even in it's Life Span it is constantly altering/dissipating. This happens in the Universe around us, it happens with our bodies, it happens with what we humans create, it happens with our conversations, ideas and thoughts too. This Philosphical theorising finds Science agreeing with it.   - These 'aspects' occur with us as  humans in various ways. So our temporal world accepts the proclamation "Aham Brahmasmi, Aham Vishnur, Aham Mahesha" (I am the Creator, I the Preserver, I the Annhilator).   - In the Spiritual Quest of humans (Who am I? What am I? Where/What was I before I was born? Where/What will I be after my death) the reach-back goes beyond the 'Being' that we are to where this "Being" emanated from or will lead to. It goes beyond the 'taking for granted' (for one who will) "Aham Brahmasmi, Aham Vishnur, Aham Mahesha". It goes back to OM (where it all started for CREATION as we humans know it) and beyond. Perhaps that is why some interpretations for OM are that it represents Brahma, Vishnu, Mahesha.   - The 'taking for granted' perhaps is reflected in the Sufi Mansur Al Hallaj's 'Anaa Al Haq' (I am the Truth) misrepresented (I think) as "I am THE GOD".     - Most Sufis, though not expressing it in the manner that Mansur did, aspire for that Communion with God. Some consider Mohammed (Prophet of Islam) the Ultimate Sufi.   - It is perhaps because of this that Sufis found it rather easy to have an audience for their  prosetylising in the "Hindu" lands. The attitudes towards "The Divine" were rather similar.   - OM the Nada Brahma is an intrinsic part of Nada Yoga (Yoga through vocalising). So is Music.  Hazrat Inaayat Khan, the Sufi, himself a musician is quoted as having said "Creation is the music of God".   On a personal note, I prefer HOM to OM. For myself, I find that vocalising HOM works better for me.   Kshmendra            --- On Mon, 9/1/08, Angshukanta Chakraborty wrote: From: Angshukanta Chakraborty Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Husain Exhibition Attacked in Delhi To: "Rana Dasgupta" Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Monday, September 1, 2008, 4:08 AM Dear Rana and all others reading this post, I would suggest everyone reading this particular yet unpublished novel by Prashant Parikh serialised in a blog: http://thesouthasianidea.wordpress.com/a-gash-in-the-world/ Though, not amongst the 'best' of contemporary fictions, it definitely rings a resounding bell, and I'm sending the link as a partial answer to some of the questions and issues raised in this argument over the 'meaning of Hinduism' which is supposedly under attack by a work of art composed by an artist from/of a different, and more specifically, the Muslim religion. The keywords/phrases that have been repeatedly discussed in this chain of arguments are probably these: Hinduism, Hindus, Art, Painting, Hussain, Muslim, Islam, India, Motherland, Metaphor, Sex, Sexuality, Body, Nudity, and lastly Om/Aum. I'm not going to add anything to what Akshay Khanna beautifully put forward in his earlier post, and which basically explicates most of these key topics. I'd rather write what came to my mind upon reading Rana Dasgupta's evocation of Om/Aum, one of the most 'fundamental' sounds/words in the Hindu scriptures, especially dealt with in the Mandukya Upanishad. No I haven't read the scriptures, none of them, but I intend to, and I will sometime. But, I do understand, that they, the scriptures, whether ascribed to the Hindu, Islamic or Christian religions, are still TEXTS in the very basic sense. They are books, transcribed meditations, historical records, testimonies of cultures, databases, and a compilation of contextual ideas. So, first of all, we need to strip them of the grandiloquent aura that surrounds them, and see them as critical source books, full of then relevant intellectual concepts, which need a historicisation and reinterpretation whenever they are brought up. Of course we all know what I just stated. However, I needed to reiterate it before going on to say anything, not just about, but perhaps what I *now* *think about* Om/Aum, upon reading Rana's post. Needless to say, whatever I say here is completely open to refutation. I quote Rana, *In the Mandukya Upanishad, which discusses the word "Om", we read that in addition to the three sounds of this word, which correspond to three different states of a person, there is also its silence - and this corresponds to the transcendental state of the individual - to a person* *"who is neither inwardly nor outwardly aware, nor both inward and outward, nor with consciousness infolded on itself - who is unseen and ineffable, ungraspable, featureless, unthinkable and unnameable." Other Upanishads name this transcendental state of Om. It is Brahman. It is infinity. * Aum, more tham anything, is a compound sound, with which three plus one (a trifle arbitary) "states" have been associated: a for waking, u for dreaming, and m for dreamless sleeping. This sound could have been anything else, involving a different set of vowels or consonants, and could have still meant the three so-called states of human existence, and the unsaid but meant fourth one, without altering the gravity of their meanings. So, in a way, Aum is a sound, albeit a sanctified one, a textually and historically validated sound that incidentally got passed on through centuries and generations, attaining its cumulative hugeness through acceptance and validation. If we didn't have an Ium, or Uam, or even Oep as something that denotes our fundamental states of being, the universe and what not, well then why did we not? Is it because they are not suitably guttural? ( I just realised that uttering Aum actually exercises some of the abdominal muscles, then was it for the medical purposes after all?) Hence, I think that ascription of the universe or infinity to the sound Om/Aum, and vice-versa, is hence one of the biggest coincidences of Vedic scriptural culture. Of course, we need to understand that so is every word, a compound sound, and it's only by mutual agreement can we begin to make meaning out of them, which is precisely why, when sparks of disagreement fly, meanings *change*. *The word "infinity" is used frequently today. But the Upanishads take this word at its face value. Infinity is *truly* infinite. It has no end, and there is nothing it does not include. Om is *literally* everything. There is nothing that is not Om. Even the things we think are not Om, are Om. Even a parody of Om is Om. Even an insult to Om is Om*. This phraseology matches exactly with the way the advocates of "Hinduism-is-not-a-religion-it-is-A-Way-of-Life" present their arguments. First on Om: Om *is* a sound, literally. Om *has come to signify* in the Vedic texts the Infinity. Therefore, Om ~ Infinity, but Om =/= Infinity, that is to say, Om has been made to correspond with Infinity, but Om is not equivalent to Infinity. For Infinity to be truly Infinite, it has be beyond any equivalence. It can only be indicated, but never arrived at. If the Vedic scripturers, excuse the neologism, wanted to obtain a spiritual theorem, or a philosophical axiom, they had to put something on the left to be weighed along with something else on the right. typically it is X = Y, or X = f(Y), that is, f being a function of Y. If we take X to be Om, and Y to be Infinity, and f, the function to be existence, (in its profoundest or profanest sense, your call), then we arrive at two different versions. These being: Om = Infinity, and Om= (existence of) Infinity. Could these two expressions mean/be the same? Which of the two were the script-writers of the Upanishads endorsing when they spoke of it? Is the writing of Om different from Om the sound in terms of its gravity? Is Om written in English letters different from the Om in Devanagari? As we see, the fundamental sound, already seems to be extremely fissured and contestable to be so fundamental and inviolable after all. Now on Om-is-Infinity's similarities with Hinduism-is-a-Way-of-Life: Om is an incidental Infinity, if I can say so, and if you accept my saying so. However, people who take Om on facevalue, have a penchant for taking most of the things just so, literally, on facevalue, and not dig into the oceans of metaphor and history submerged beneath. In the same vein, if Hinduism happens to be a sum total of the religious activities (including reading, writing, re-writing, ritualising, performing as dictated in the texts in their innumerable versions) and the other activities that are more common and shared by people belonging to other religions (activities like eating, drinking, sleeping, mating, discussing, gossiping, net-surfing, etc), then what is so special about Hinduism? Christianity or Islam or even Sikhism and Buddhism too can boast of exactly the same things, i.e., the religious and other general activities. So, it is basically the *textual differences* in the scriptures, whether the Upanishads, the Quran, the Bible or the Guru Granth Sahib, that chart out the finer patterns of the execution of the religious ritual, that mark one religion from the other. It is what exactly one says (and in what order) while exchanging the wedding vows that differentiates one religious marriage from the other. If Hinduism is a way of life, then so are Christianity, Islam, Buddism or Sikhism. But if these are merely religions, then so is Hinduism. Probably what is at stake here is the gravity of implication connoted by the difference in phraseology. If Hinduism has Om, and Om is Infinity, and Infinity has everything, including its contradiction and/or things extraneous to it (which is nothing), then logically, Hinduism has Infinity, and nothing exists outside of Infinity, hence nothing exists outside of Hinduism, which in a way, brings to nought every other religion. This is precisely the premise of the "Hinduism is a Way of Life" argument. It accommodates (may I say eats up? engulfs? cannibalises on?) everything else, hence it is not merely a religion, because it can adapt and re-invent itself by 'sheltering the rest'. Are we confusing the multifarious cross-fertilised cultures (whether linguistic, gastronomic, sartorial, educational, even religious) of this variegated land, called India since 1947, with simply Hinduism? Does that mean that whatever has been happening since the Vedic ages is autochthonous and 'organic' to this 'originally' Hindu India, and everything else that's extraneous or came from outside is non-Hindu, hence un-originary, hence non-Ways-of-Life? What we constantly underplay is the now distant presence of textuality in Hinduism, and play it off against the proximity, indeed the overt centrality of the core text in other religions. Since a Bible is present in the Christian wedding ceremony, along with the priest of course, it is a text-centric religious Religion, while because usually the Hindu Brahmin priests do away with the hassles of texts relying more on their impeccably reproducing memories, ours is a Way-of-Life Religion. I might go on endlessly charting out further the absurdities of this insistence. It has a value, if not critical validity, in terms of its applicability in the pre-Independence era, but to say it without scrutiny in the present times is bound to create oppositional voices. *If this is Hinduism then Hinduism is fantastically, impossibly grand. Why then would we mix it up with things that are not grand at all, as if they existed on the same level?* ** ** Although, if I get it right, Rana said this ironically, I think there's a lurking danger in such sarcasms that inflate the Hinduism balloon with the definitive intention of bursting it. To say 'why would we mix it up with things that are not grand at all' is tantamount to stopping the process of argument altogether because it is too big or pointless for a meaningful dialogue. No matter how flawed the other side appears, a dialogue is always needed. Hence, even Infinity needs grades and shades of various finitudes to be it. Such all-encompassing concepts, are at best exactly that, concepts, which are in turn human creations. So that makes the concept of Infinity a human creation, if not Infinity itself. And Infinity never forbids infinite dialogue. Rana, I never for second thought that you could be an advocate of the Hinduism is a Way Life school, or any such school that dictates. *Tokyo Cancelled* had the limitless expanse of our infinite finitudes, and most poetically and evocatively rendered. What I wrote was simply what came to my mind upon reading what you wrote. Perhaps this would elicit a dialogue, at best, but I hope nothing bitter even at worst. Best regards, Angshukanta On Sun, Aug 31, 2008 at 7:31 PM, Rana Dasgupta wrote: > ONE > > No one knows what Hinduism is. But perhaps we can agree that the > Upanishads are "Hindu". > > In the Mandukya Upanishad, which discusses the word "Om", we read that > in addition to the three sounds of this word, which correspond to three > different states of a person, there is also its silence - and this > corresponds to the transcendental state of the individual - to a person: > > "who is neither inwardly nor outwardly aware, nor both inward and > outward, nor with consciousness infolded on itself - who is unseen and > ineffable, ungraspable, featureless, unthinkable and unnameable." > > Other Upanishads name this transcendental state of Om. It is Brahman. > It is infinity. > > The word "infinity" is used frequently today. But the Upanishads take > this word at its face value. Infinity is *truly* infinite. It has no > end, and there is nothing it does not include. Om is *literally* > everything. There is nothing that is not Om. Even the things we think > are not Om, are Om. Even a parody of Om is Om. Even an insult to Om is > Om. > > Meditation on the word "Om" reveals that the self is part of this > infinity. I am Om. My egotistical impulses are ridiculous. I cannot > take from the universe because I am the universe. If I feel that my > body or my street or my family or my town or my country are spiritually > unique or special then I have not begun to understand the infinity I am > part of. I cannot break anything off from this infinity and worship it. > Infinity is infinity, and I can spend my entire life contemplating it > but every thought I have of infinity is limited, and it is not infinity > itself. > > If this is Hinduism then Hinduism is fantastically, impossibly grand. > Why then would we mix it up with things that are not grand at all, as if > they existed on the same level? > > "India" for instance. "India" is a 60 year-old political pragmatism. > "India" is an accidental territory. It is a collection of peoples of > different races, histories, languages, religions, incomes and > sexualities. It is a seat in the UN. It is a bureaucratic machine. It > is a hastily contrived set of symbols. Its beginning was recent, and > one day it will cease to be. It is not particularly grand. In the > context of infinity, of Om, India is of no importance at all. > > It seems impossible that Hindus, people with such an enormous vision of > the universe, would get upset about pictures that a painter made. The > painter is Om, and so are his pictures. Sex is Om, the naked body is > Om. It seems impossible that Hindus would be interested in nationalism > or anti-nationalism because such parochialism would be far below them. > They would only be interested in "India" in the same way they were > interested in "Congo" or "Azerbaijan" or "Paraguay" - for these things > are of interest, but none more than any other. > > Hindus are too grand to be concerned by India or painters or people who > worship differently to them. Such things melt into the enormity of > infinity, and disappear. > > TWO > > Why would one speak of "the Motherland"? What is one trying to say with > this word? How can "the Motherland" be identical to a nation? > > If one is trying to say that the land is nurturing like a mother this is > true, but so is all land, not just the land of a certain nation. > > Perhaps one could say that the Indian government organised schools and > ration cards and elections and television broadcasts - and therefore > India is my Motherland. But this would be a strange and unromantic idea > of a mother. > > > > > > > > > > chanchal malviya wrote: > > Dear Khanna, > > > > 1. There are people in this world who are not ready to take the > positive side of their own identity. There are people who would love to > rape their own mother and motherland. And there are some people who even > protect their intention as personal attitude. Great. Not to say anything > to them. > > 2. You telling that motherland is a metaphor and nothing else > explains in itself what you feel about India. I am sure such person also > feel the same for their own mother and sister. And I have written > earlier that such person would not come to protect their mother also, > what to say about the broader concept of motherland. > > 3. As far as Hinduism is concerned, it has to be recognized through > the text only. It cannot be recognized at least now by actions of > people. Because India is more Islamic and Christianized than a Hindu > country. Of course, people like you are a part of it. Hinduism is a mere > subject of attack in India. What I told about Hinduism is exactly what > is HInduism. And why Hinduism, this word came into existence only when > other Religions forced it upon the people of Sanatan Dharma. > > > > I know you will not be able to understand the difference between > Dharma and Religion. For you and Gandhiji both are same. But Dharma > means Righteous duty and Religion is what you all are talking about. > Hinduism is science and teaches righteous duty in scientific manner. > World outside India is recognizing this, but our Indians will understand > it only when a 'Gora' will come and say and that also when he is ruling > us. Sorry. > > > > Sex is a power of nature that is to be won by human through various > methodologies described in Hindu text. And that is an important step > towards Self-Realization. Attempt is that only. Women taking bath nude > didn't cover their body when Sukdeva (son of Veda Vyas) crossed them, > because they knew that he is a child in his nature on this matter. But > they immediately took cover when Veda Vyas crossed. > > There are many stories where Saints are being enticed by Apsaras for > sex. And the theme of all story is same - sex is a very powerful natural > factor. And winning over it is the biggest win in life. > > If sex would have been so prominent in Hindus, we would have found > Hindu society also marrying multitude of women. > > Please do not try to put Hinduism under charge, for this. > > I have already told you the meaning of Deities, and yet you do not > understand and ask me stupid questions. > > > > Unlike Islam, where one is allowed to marry as many as they like as > per their capacity and in addition keep as many women as their right > hand posses (Hindu women) for sex. It is unlike Christian where sex and > love are the same thing. > > > > M.F.Hussain is a gift of Islam. So, he will see even his motherland > only with his Madhuri attitude. No, he is seeing India nude with his > Islamic attitude. He has seen Madhuri also with his Islamic attitude, > though film stars have a different life style and we may not be > protective of them in this matter. > > > > It is so simple, if M.F.Hussain is so clean, let him paint his > mother. Or if you or the protector of M.F.Hussain has so large heart, > please send a photograph of your mother to him and ask him to paint her > nude. Let me see, how many of you are not of double standard. > > Either you all are in favor of Darul-Islam, or you are abusing your > own motherland by supporting bloody Hussain. > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: A Khanna > > To: Prabhakar Singh > > Cc: chanchal malviya ; inder salim > ; reader-list at sarai.net > > Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 3:36:56 AM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Husain Exhibition Attacked in Delhi > > > > chanchal, prabhakar, Everyone Else, > > > > there are three issues i'd like to reflect on in light of your rather > > rabid postings on the issues of the attack on M.F. Husain's > > exhibition. Apologies for the rather long posting, i do hope some of > > you will find it interesting. > > > > First, a rather obvious contestation relating to Chanchal's gratuitous > > offer to speak the 'truth' of 'Hinudism', and more broadly, the > > aggressive claim of Hindutva forces of a monopoly of what the terms > > 'Hindu' and 'Hinduism' may mean. More particularly, this is a > > contestation of the place of sexualness and eroticism in them. What > > makes it possible for the claim to be made that 'sex is not erotic in > > hinduism' on the one hand, and the demeaning of artists who brought > > out erotics in sex as 'failed' Hindus? What exactly is the fear of the > > erotic? Why are these strange people trying to cleave eroticism away > > from the lives of 'Hindus'?? > > > > Surely you are aware that there is a diversity of practices, > > festivals, mythologies, political economies, cosmologies if you like, > > in different parts of the country and in different communities in the > > same regions, that may lay claim to the name 'Hindu'. This is even in > > the face of colonial, and more recent hindu fundamentalist, attempts > > to reduce this diversity into a rather boring, often textual, > > normative frame. Chanchal offers, in other words, one peculiar vision > > of some 'pure' or 'original' 'Hinduism' as though it exists in texts > > (particular ones that by perhaps little more than historical > > serendipity, and sex anxious coloniality, came to be seen as > > containing the 'truth' of 'Hindu culture'), rather than in the > > embodiment and practices of people. chanchal's vision, of a "faith > > (not religion) that talks about winning over the senses (particularly > > sex)" is one that, for the large part, stands miles away from various > > realities, practices and beliefs of those who consider themselves > > 'Hindu'. > > > > In my travels around India researching sexualness and eroticism I > > encountered a confounding multiplicity of festivals, rituals, > > identities and idioms in which eroticism, desire and sexualness are > > central. Way too many of these take place in temples, way too many of > > these are central to local religious practices, and the logics and > > experiences of faith, way too many of these lay claim to being > > 'Hindu', for me to accept chanchal's description of Hinduism as an > > achievement over sex. Or of the Lingam as light. (is it just me or > > does this sounds closer to a Victorian Christianity? – a reading of > > colonial anxieties around sex race and gender into the truth of the > > self?) So chanchal, unfortunately yours is one peculiar vision of > > 'hindu', and a pathetically unimaginative one at that. It sounds to me > > like the collective voice of a masculinist upper caste that is yet to > > come to terms with (or even recognise) the damage done to it through > > the colonial experience and one which clings to rather fragile stories > > of the self. And it is unfortunate that the political economy of > > Hindutva allows such a vision so much importance today. (Let me > > clarify that i am not particularly invested or interested in > > reclaiming Hindu from the bare teeth of the aggressive masculinist > > claimants. But i do want to point to the right of others to do so.) > > > > The second interesting point in the postings is the tension around > > nudity. Nakedness. Such a beautiful experience. Do you not love the > > human body? Do you not love your own selves? Is it a fear or disgust > > with the self or some other trauma that brings about such anxiety > > around nakedness? But ofcourse this is not just the representation of > > the naked human body that seems to have caused this anxiety – it seems > > to be, more precisely, that you necessarily see sexualness and > > eroticism in the naked human body. But hold on, it is not just > > sexualness and eroticism of the naked human body that has caused this > > anxiety, it is a very particular nakedness – the nakedness of > > 'Motherland India'. Because, the problem with 'perverted Husain' is > > that to him "Mother Indian and Madhuri are the same" – therefore, > > actually its alright for him to paint Madhuri, in fact you probably > > sat at the edge of your seat, enthralled as many of us were, as > > Madhuri oh so sensuously thrust her beautiful breasts forward, > > inviting you to a world of phantasmic pleasure, nevermind the > > performance of outrage at the LYRICS of Choli Ke Peechhe (and i'm not > > talking merely of pleasure for the male gaze of Masculine Men. I for > > one, wanted to be Madhuri). Its the nakedness of Mother India, or > > Motherland India that caused anxiety. So lets face this ponderous > > image of a naked, sexualised Mother India head on. There are two > > things that i find fascinating here. > > > > First, the Motherland is a metaphor. A very powerful metaphor > > admittedly. But a metaphor nonetheless. India is experienced as many > > things, and through many metaphors – a place, sometimes a 'people', a > > postcolonial nation state, a geographical entity with multiple and > > complex cartographic existences, a cricket team, a zone of intense > > gastronomic density, a colonising force, an a series of competing and > > collaborating political economies...But India is not simply a woman. > > And Kashmir is not the head of this woman (as we were unfortunately > > taught in school in the 80s). The power of this metaphor is truly > > fascinating. > > > > But how does one strip a metaphor?? This must be one hell of a > > brilliant painting! (on which note, are there any weblinks to images > > of this painting? If someone knows a link i implore you, please share > > it on this list). If it is true that this painting has managed to > > actually bring this metaphor into an embodiment, and then brought out > > an eroticism in it (rather than what it seems like, the attackers not > > having even really seen and experienced the the painting) then what it > > has done is expose Mother India as a metaphor, and weakened the power > > that 'she' wields. Brilliant. The second thing is of course that once > > we see Mother India as a metaphor into which we are constantly > > investing a sense of reality, the metaphor becomes a contested space. > > And perhaps this is what is creating anxiety for the likes of > > prabhakar and chanchal? > > > > So lets look at what it is about the stripping of this metaphor that > > has gotten them, and the attackers of the exhibition so aggressive? > > What is the power of this metaphor? One of prabhakar's email hits the > > nail on the head. "If some artist in the name of art paints your > > mother nude and displays it in art galleries and exhibitions to public > > how would you feel and how would you react?", s/he asks. A similar > > point is made by chanchal when s/he says "I am sure, a person who > > paints his motherland nude, must have done much more nonesense (sic) > > to his mother and sister". This leads me to understand that the > > anxiety over the depiction of Mother India in such a way that she may > > be seen to be sexualised, as erotic, is actually an anxiety around the > > possibility that heris mother is sexual, or has an erotic side to her. > > Is it scary, prabhakar, chanchal, for you to imagine that your mother > > may be a sexual being with erotic desires, and with a body that is her > > own, and which can be naked? Is it a fear of this possibility that > > evokes in you, such strong emotions when you see (or perhaps hear of) > > what some artist has done on a piece of canvas with paint? Is it this > > fear that you will allow to dominate your very imagination of the > > Nation of India? Freudian psychobabble, in other words, offers itself > > up tantalisingly here. Is their Hindu nation structured around an > > Oedipal anxiety over desire for the mother? (ugh!) > > > > The troubling effect of this is of course the denial in nationalist > > discourse of sexualness or rather the right to sexualness of women, as > > after all, the big obligation on the good woman is to become the > > mother of (male) children. This justifies mechanisms of regulation > > over women's sexualness, and the meting out of punishment and > > exclusion to those who fail to live within these boundaries, or > > transgress them at will. The protests against the film Fire being a > > case in point. But how does a woman become a mother (over and over > > again, atleast until she begets a Son), when she is bereft of > > sexualness? Is this an imagination of immaculate conception, or, a > > belief that the only form of legitimate sex is heterosexual rape? The > > point here is that if the metaphor of the Motherland and the lives of > > women must feed into each other, the demand for the recognition of > > sexualness and women's right to sexuality must also address the > > sexualness of the metaphor of Mother India. > > > > This brings me to my last point. I was brought up with a sense of > > patriotism, stories of the freedom struggle, stories of the success of > > Big Nehruvian development and images of Mother India. In fact i > > sometimes still experience a sense of nostalgia for that heady emotion > > of being part of that particular 'something bigger'. (yes, i cried > > when i watched Rang De Basanti). I have, in other words, experienced > > the power of Mother India, and surely all that investment by the state > > into making sure that this experience marks my psyche forever entails > > me to owning the metaphor. I claim the right, in other words to invest > > this metaphor with things. If i bring my travels around India to bear > > on this, i'd say 'Mother India', to me, is one hell of beautiful, > > sensual, sexual, erotic figure, a polymorphous queer body, who laughs, > > flirts, makes love, has soul-baring intense sex. Oh, and, sigh, S/he > > also makes steel. > > > > > > Love, > > > > akshay > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From ishwarsridharan at yahoo.com Mon Sep 1 18:57:38 2008 From: ishwarsridharan at yahoo.com (Ishwar) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 06:27:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] ways of life...contd. Message-ID: <877453.63392.qm@web31812.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I'm new here, having been pointed to this list by a good friend. Considering my science background, please excuse my profound lack of understanding of social sciences, or if I'm leading the conversation astray. Trying to understand the interaction in a heterogeneous society is an interesting and could prove very daunting. What's the level of heterogeneity that we're trying to deal with. In this example, is the level of heterogeneity 1. The aborigines 2. The settlers, or 1. The aborigines who've not yet integrated with the current Canadian society 2. The aborigines who haven't yet integrated with the current Canadian society 3. Consumerist settlers with a high standard of living 4. Producer settlers who exploit the environment 5. Native and settled nature activists, or 1. The poor aborigines who've integrated with the current Canadian society 2. The integrated middle-class aborigines 3. The rich integrated middle-class aborigines 4. and so on, you get the picture. And there're cases in which a person can belong equally well to multiple categories. Or some classification that I've completely missed. Every subsequent level of heterogeneity brings in more classes, conflicts and interactions, and as a reductio as absurdum, the best understanding comes forth when each person is thought of as a heterogeneous entity.And unless one does this, one makes a same mistakes as assuming homogeneity, only on a smaller scale. To draw an example from science(I have no idea if it's relevant or not), while the gravitational interaction between two bodies is very clearly understood, the moment you bring in a third body, the equations become much much more complex, and becomes impossible study. Hence people club body A and body B into a body C with a centre of gravity of A and B. This is loss of information, but it makes it possible to understand the system, instead of getting lost in the details and failing to understand it completely. Apologies if this such analogies don't fit(people are a little more complex than bodies under gravity :P), but will a meaningful study be feasible at all at such levels of heterogeneity? -- Ishwar Just another resurrected Neozoic Archosaur comics. http://www.flickr.com/photos/mojosaurus/sets/72157600257724083/ From phadkeshilpa at gmail.com Mon Sep 1 22:38:40 2008 From: phadkeshilpa at gmail.com (Shilpa Phadke) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 22:38:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Dr Binayak Sen, My Brother, Our Hero In-Reply-To: References: <9185c7860808310950o723edd09ta5feeb5393d575bc@mail.gmail.com> <84b36a600808312340s7f3f2454maa04c9bddcb21c9b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: * * *Dr Binayak Sen, My Brother, Our Hero * *By Dipankar Sen * 26 August, 2008 *Hard News * *T*he courtroom was hushed as the prisoner stood awaiting sentence. The judge donned his black skullcap as he deliberately passed the death sentence. That is the sweat drenched nightmare that I sometimes wake up to. The prisoner is no ordinary man: he is my brother, Dr Binayak Sen. Recently, I went to visit him again in prison in Raipur in Chhattisgarh, just before his last court hearing. I saw him again in court. The courtroom itself was far from the courtrooms that we see in the movies. No pictures of a toothless smiling Gandhi or Subhas Chandra Bose hung from the wall behind the judge, a Sikh, Mr Balinder Singh Saluja. There were just two benches, one for the lawyers and the second for visitors. The dock, a 1.5m x 1.5m enclosure, was just enough space for the three standing prisoners while the lawyers argued their case. Binayak stood leaning against the railing of the dock. The expression on his face and his body language did not betray any anxiety or distress of this unnecessary prison experience imposed on him through an intricate web of lies. There, standing within touching distance was my Dada, handsome, dignified, ever driven by the force of conviction, all of which showed up in the gentleness of his composure and the calmness in his eyes. I asked him how he was. "Without a purpose," was his reply. And that, I suspect, must have been one of his weaker moments, because he actually said something about himself. His reply would normally be, "I'm ok, don't worry about me. I am just fine. How is Ma? Tell her not to worry. And how are you?" As the proceedings started, there was a witness in the dock on the other side of the room, closer to the judge. He was identifying the seizure list. The list was long, and the monotonous but hypnotic tapping sound of the typewriter caused my mind to float away. I looked at Dada and my mind drifted to the tune of "Where are the green fields," which he would whistle when we were kids in Pune in 1965. He had just passed his Senior Cambridge exams from Calcutta Boy's School with brilliant results and had every reason to be chirpy. He had a lot of friends and we would go out hiking, which meant a lot of walking through the wild grasslands then surrounding the camp area in Pune. I was just a fat 11-year-old then and often had problems keeping up. Dada often had to carry me piggy back so that the tall grass would not cut me with the sharp blades. By the time he became a doctor, his care for the little brother had been replaced by constant concern for the health of poor Indians, the tribals, workers, the dispossessed or others that are in the process of joining their ranks. Around May 9, 2007, I had called my mother in Kalyani, when I was told by my niece that they had learnt through journalists that their father was supposed to be arrested but was reported to be absconding. Binayak and his entire family were at Kalyani then, spending some of their holidays with my aged mother. My mind did not even register the urgency or the gravity of the situation. I just thought it was some stupid mistake that the police had made. After all, who could have anything against Dada...the poor man's doctor and helping hand? I had even nicknamed him Father Teresa, except that he liked Kingfisher beer. I suddenly realised that I knew very little about The BINAYAK SEN. It had been a long time that we had gone our ways. But the prospect of arrest and prison for Dada were a long way off from anything that we as a family could have imagined. The next day, and everyday after that, I called Kalyani, and realised that Dada's situation was much more serious than I had thought. That is when I started begging him to come to me, in Belgium. Run... do anything but don't go back to Chhattisgarh. He just said that he could not betray the trust of his patients, who would be waiting for him from the May 14, 2007. He insisted on leaving as scheduled, on May 13. While sitting in an Italian restaurant in Paris on May 14, I heard of his arrest. His older daughter Pranhita first called to say that he was called to the police station in Bilaspur to give a statement, but that the police would not arrest him. About 15 minutes later she called again to say that he had indeed been arrested. It was around 12.45 in Paris that my life turned its page on political innocence. I suddenly grew up. During the course of Dada's year in prison, I read about him in the press, both national and international. I found him on Wikipedia. I found his name on numerous internet sites. There were the admiring letters that he received in prison, and that must have helped to keep his sanity. Then came the recognition from the Indian Academy of Social Sciences, the Keithan Gold Medal, the Jonathan Mann award, the 21 Nobel Laureates writing to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, the demonstrations in India and around the world. But I began feeling guilty and embarrassed. Because of my long absence in Europe since the 1970s, I learnt about Dada's greatness, above all about his work, through the press and through the mail of his admirers from distant lands. I did not know about the hospital he helped build in Dalli Rajhara, his work in Ganyari near Bilaspur, the Mitanin project, the Right to Food campaign. Nor had I heard of his work with the People's Union for Civil Liberties (PUCL), or of the dedicated band of people that worked with him. They included doctors, lawyers, journalists, filmmakers and the man on the street. His circle of supporters included doctors from all over the world, the most active among them being his own former teachers and class mates, as well as some who were not his contemporaries at Christian Medical College (CMC), Vellore, but had attended the same college. I learnt details about his career from his former teachers and colleagues at the Christian Medical College, which bestowed on him the Paul Harrison Award to recognise his work that exemplified their best ideals of a doctor. There were two images of my brother - the more familiar one of a fun-loving man who liked good food, good music, and enjoyed horsing around with his family and his many good friends; and the other of a serious doctor with concerns - expressed even while he was a student -- about the health of poorer communities, and its roots in their social and economic deprivation. This is what his former teacher, Dr P Zachariah, wrote in a tribute to his student: "Binayak is a very rare doctor - a man with a deep understanding of the social and political dimensions of health. The governments of the world, the World Bank and other organisations are now worrying about food security and alternative food policies; Binayak was decades ahead of them all." None of this apparently moves the State, which refuses to budge from its position. If you ask someone in the government why Dada is in prison, the reply is standard: "He is a Maoist leader and sympathiser, and we have enough evidence against him." So I asked the DGP of Chhattisgarh, so why is he not returning the computer seized from Dr Binayak Sen over a year ago, especially since forensic examination of the hard disc had failed to turn up any incriminating evidence. He said that the Forensic Institute in Hyderabad could not break into a code. When I reminded him that teenagers are hacking into banks and the Pentagon everyday, his reply was patently evasive. I also reminded him that I had heard that not one of the police witnesses gave any credible witness/evidence against Binayak. He countered with the possibility of a supplementary chargesheet that was in preparation based on some 53 pages of telephone conversations with someone who is a known Maoist. Like an astrologer, he predicted that the lower court would probably convict him but the higher court would release him. Now, how long the process would take is anybody's guess. Common sense tells me that it could be years. Back in the courtroom, my mind suddenly woke up to the noise of some strong protests from defense lawyer Mahendra Dubey. He had just found that a letter had been planted by the police and had clearly stirred some excitement in court. The insistent tapping of the typewriter had stopped. The judge looked worried. A letter to a senior Maoist party member which the police were claiming had been found among the documents seized from his apartment was printed on a plain sheet of computer paper, and did not even have his signature. Moreover, it did not appear in the list of seized documents that Dada and the police had co-signed at the time they were seized. It was indeed a plant. The old public prosecutor did not bother to look embarrassed, he simply denied any knowledge of it or how it got there. I left the court dejected and heartbroken as he was driven away in the police van. An entire State was conspiring to subject upon my brother a life without a life... without a purpose, without any privacy, without any space of his own, denying him the very means of contributing to society in a way that even the State itself had acknowledged when it had implemented his ideas to start the Mitanin programme. They are imposing a punishment upon an innocent man in the full knowledge that they are doing wrong. Now that we are convinced that his imprisonment is based on false and trumped up charges, we will want to know who would want to inflict such a fate on this man and above all why? Then we could have a possible basis and a clue to engage in a sensible dialogue with them to secure his release. My Dada was one who, at a very early age, wondered why we could not invite the servants in our home to eat with us. At the age of five, he had the sensitivity to write: I saw a bird in the morning sun Flying high up in the sky, A man shot it down with his gun And I began to cry. He does not deserve this fate. But for someone who has withstood more than a year-and-four months of prison, solitary confinement, harassment, humiliation but not shame, we have a simple message: Tum akele nahin ho Dada... My brother! The writer is an options trader in the commodities market based in Antwerp, Belgium. The print version of this article will appear in the September edition of Hardnews magazine. The magazine will hit the stands on September 1, 2008 -- Dear Friends, Sending this mail keeping you in mind. If you do not want to receive such mails let me know. Please consider the environment before printing this message. Sincerely, Dr. Vispi Jokhi MS (Orthopedics) 660/6 S. Palamkote Road, Parsi Colony, Dadar, Mumbai-400014. 91 22 32440710 9323351529 e mail: vhjokhi at gmail.com -- MAXIMISE THE MILLIWATT http://micropower.blogspot.com From prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com Mon Sep 1 23:04:53 2008 From: prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com (Prabhakar Singh) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 10:34:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] More Pictures of the Book Release Function Message-ID: <195831.66792.qm@web31502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear All, I am sending some more pictures of the Book Release Function of the book of poems titled 'Aatmanubhuti' held at Speaker Hall, Constitution Club, New Delhi on 9th August.It can be seen on the following link : http://picasaweb.google.co.in/psprabhakardeepa/BookReleaseFunctionPhotos982008 With kind regards, Prabhakar Did you know? You can CHAT without downloading messenger. Go to http://in.webmessenger.yahoo.com/ From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Mon Sep 1 23:06:04 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 23:06:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?India_won=92t=2C_can=92t_give_up_b?= =?windows-1252?q?y_Jaithirth_Rao?= Message-ID: <6353c690809011036m6dbb9ea0vb9b16277234eab27@mail.gmail.com> *India won't, can't give up* *by Jaithirth Rao in The Indian Express* ** *Link - http://www.indianexpress.com/story/355662._.htm* *Kashmir is not special. This multi-lingual, multi-ethnic, multi-religious country is* The text of a speech the prime minister should give on Jammu and Kashmir, addressing the people of the state. My sisters and brothers from the state of Jammu and Kashmir: I speak to you today with the utmost candour and simplicity. Being candid implies being honest in an emphatic, even brutal manner. People use complicated expressions when they want to obfuscate. I intend to leave no opportunity for anyone to interpret or misinterpret my words as the case may be. I want to make the following seven points: 1. India is not going to give up Kashmir. If you have been hearing that several so-called intellectuals have advocated this, then please do not over-estimate their influence. They can be concerned about abstractions like the arithmetic or the algebra of justice. That is irrelevant and inconsequential. The Republic of India is not going to confer Azadi on part or all of Kashmir. Nor are we going to let you join Pakistan. Please do not be misled by anyone who tells you anything to the contrary. 2. If the current unrest continues in the state, many people, mostly young people will be affected by violence. That is avoidable. Because there is not a hope in hell that all of this violence will persuade any government in India to let you secede. 3. People may be misleading you that if you indulge in public slogan-mongering, throwing stones or more lethal objects at the police in front of TV cameras of the international media, the chances of my government or any other government operating in its place agreeing to let you secede is high. They are dead wrong. We have violence and public demonstrations in dozens of places in our country every day. To some extent, we have become immune and these acts have limited impact. 4. Some may have given you the impression that Kashmir is a unique case on account of its history, geography or religious make-up. Please do not believe them. As far as the government of India is concerned, all secessionist movements, Naga or Ahom or Kashmiri, will meet the same response. They cannot be allowed to succeed. The fact that we frequently have "talks" with secessionists or quasi-secessionists should not lead you to infer that there is any weakness on the government's part as far as fundamental issues are concerned. The "talks" are part of a strategy of combining firmness with dialogue in order to get people and their leaders to give UP their secessionist demands. By no stretch of imagination should this create the impression that we will give IN to these demands. 5. Our position is not based on issues that seem of great importance to you — whether non-Kashmiris can buy land in Kashmir or whether some shrine is run this way or that. Such issues are not the most important for us, even though out of democratic respect for your feelings we are willing to talk about them. The plain and simple fact is that India is a multi-ethnic, multi-religious, multi-lingual country. We are not a nation-state based on one race, language or church. In this we resemble the empires of old. Consider the Austro-Hungarian Empire where Czechs from Bohemia, Jews from Vienna, Magyars from Hungary and German-speaking Catholics from the Tyrol all lived together peacefully and, more importantly, talented individuals from all of these groups were able to blossom, thrive and prosper. That is the Indian model with the added accoutrements of a democratic republic. We know what happens when great empires break up. For decades after that, the ensuing violence and anarchy turn the lives of millions of ordinary individuals and families into a living hell. In recent times as the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia have broken up we have again witnessed this tragic phenomenon. If India were to agree to one or other constituent part seceding, let me assure you that the likely ensuing violence will make the violence in the former Soviet Union or Yugoslavia look like a mild tea party. No government in India, of India will countenance this. No prime minister will put himself in a position where history will hold that he or she was responsible for such a monumental tragedy. 6. You may also ask whether we have the stomach to put up with mounting casualties in the police and the army. My answer is an unequivocal "yes". We are a nation of 1.2 billion people. We don't want to sacrifice young men and women. But we are perfectly willing to do so to preserve our way of life. We recollect with awe that many continents away, a century and a half ago, the kindly President Lincoln had sinews of steel when faced with longer and longer casualty lists of the cream of American youth. But he prevented secession. He preserved the union. That is precisely what we will do. The misplaced secessionist attempts of some Naga leaders pre-date similar attempts by some of your leaders. We have not yielded. In the '80s, my home state of the Punjab was troubled greatly by foolish insurrectionists. That too has passed. We are confident that the Indian state will prevail. 7. Let me close by appealing to each of you as individuals. My appeal is particularly directed to young people. Instead of spending time in agitations, demonstrations, attacking the police, etc I suggest that you learn skills such as computer programming, financial analysis and so on. Seek meaningful jobs anywhere in the vast integrated and fast-growing Indian marketplace. Get ahead in life as individuals. Fulfil your individual dreams. If you are stuck to a small state and do not see a large country and indeed the world as your canvas you as an individual will be the loser. The collective identity of being Kashmiri or Moslem or a Hindoo or a Buddhist is a seductive trap. You are individuals and you deserve a better life than screaming unrealistic and impossible slogans. *The writer divides his time between Mumbai, Lonavla and Bangalore jerry.rao at expressinda.com* From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Mon Sep 1 23:10:37 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 23:10:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmir simmering - Aditi Bhaduri in The Hindu Message-ID: <6353c690809011040g36f5e1f0q2d0d3573eda3514c@mail.gmail.com> http://www.hindu.com/mag/2008/08/31/stories/2008083150010100.htm ** *Kashmir simmering * ADITI BHADURI Kashmir is being suffocated more by the hartals called by the local leaders. Snapshots of life in the valley as the unrest unfolds… Twenty-year-old Laila sighed "Why are we being made to pay for whatever is happening in Jammu?" No cause for concern Kashmir's leaders were protesting against the alleged "economic blockade" imposed on it by Jammu by calling for strikes. Yet, Kashmiris seemed to be stocked with food. Ghulam Mohammed Dar, a resident of downtown Zeina Kadal, faced no food problem. Even during the bandh, his local butcher and vegetable vendors are able to stock him up with food. This is pretty much true of most residents in Srinagar. "We have our supplies, enough rice and pulses to last us a couple of months and meat supplies from our local supplier," says Tariq, owner of a modest hotel in Lal Chowk. The problem is with buyers — customers were few and far in between. A resident of Aish Muqam, working in Srinagar, complains *that shopkeepers have been taking advantage of the blockade and rumours of impending shortage by hiking prices of vegetables and rice.* *And though "economic blockade" is on the lips of many, few seemed to be affected by it as far as food is concerned. There is no starvation. Kashmir is a society where people are used to hoarding food that sees them through the long winter each year.* *Rather than by the "economic blockade" from Jammu, Kashmir is being suffocated by the hartal and bandh calls given by Hurriyat leaders.* Forced to comply The owner of a handicraft shop on Srinagar's upmarket Poloview Road -- ,is often forced to keep his shop closed. "I don't care which party calls for a shutdown, I'd rather continue with my business, but I don't want to take risks. Miscreants can easily damage my shop and goods and then who would compensate me?" So against his will, he heeds the bandh calls. And then there are the fruit growers —According to Butt, 60 per cent of the packed fruits ready for transportation to markets have been spoilt. *Yet, there was really no need to launch the march to Muzzafarabad, *foreseen to fail in any case —* the fruit growers wanted to get to India through Muzzafarabad*! That Hurriyat leaders would support the march came as no surprise. People have also been wondering why no preventive curfew was imposed on the day of the march. What followed is there for all to see. But as of now, *Kashmir is not starving*, simply simmering. ** Printer friendly page Send this article to Friends by E-Mail ------------------------------ From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Tue Sep 2 02:01:33 2008 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 13:31:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions Message-ID: <687292.49677.qm@web53605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Yousuf, Your argument is what I call reductionist (from dictionary.com=2.the practice of simplifying a complex idea, issue, condition, or the like, esp. to the point of minimizing, obscuring, or distorting it.). When you talk about "millions of issues in our society which people used to take with orthodox attitude",you are basically creating a straw man.Many orthodox practices have to be given up;we have no difference on that. When two deontologies collide,we have to present a teleological argument in favor of one or the other.In other words,when two value frameworks reach conflicting position on an issue,we have two ways we can approach the conflict.The one who favors one value framework should present a comparison of the two frameworks in terms of social cost-benefit,or,The one who favors one value framework tries to educate the other one to their system just because its "better".Do you see the difference between the two? Now, in an engagement of two groups on perceived social cost-benefit,there will be conflicts.Its hard to imagine how two groups will have same perception of social cost-benefit.But at least we would be trying to resolve issues within a teleological framework which is a lot better than "my way is better than your way and you have to be educated to my way". Regards Rahul gate social cost-benefit,and not on the basis of what one group thinks is right. --- On Mon, 9/1/08, Yousuf wrote: > From: Yousuf > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" , rahul_capri at yahoo.com > Cc: "Sarai list" > Date: Monday, September 1, 2008, 9:12 AM > Dear Rahul > I understand your logic, but I think your alternative no.3 > is too idealized and utopian to achieve, although I would > love if it works. Also, it may apply only to some > situations, not all. For instance, if a group of people > thinks that women are inferior and should remain inside > homes, or that we should ruin the environment by cutting > trees, wasting water and fuel, would you allow them to > believe and act on this? You may call it my condescending > attitude, but why is it that we have managed to bring an > awareness and "reform" today about so many > millions of issues in our society which people used to take > with orthodox attitude. I am talking about gender equality, > environment, education, health issues (although it is still > not enough). Nobody is born with politically correct genes - > we all acquire things as we grow. So what's the big deal > for instance about having arts appreciation as part of the > school curriculum or TV programmes. Should we allow our > mainstream media to remain condescending then? Why is > television changing the attitude of people - why is our > society becoming more consumerist and aggressive and > prejudiced? > Look my condescending solution doesn't involve simply > education - I am talking about dialogue and awareness, and > not talking down somebody's throat which the TV does > today. > > Yousuf > > --- On Sun, 8/31/08, Rahul Asthana > wrote: > > > From: Rahul Asthana > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and > Transgressions > > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > , ysaeed7 at yahoo.com > > Cc: "Sarai list" > > > Date: Sunday, August 31, 2008, 11:54 PM > > Yousuf, > > > > I think i failed in getting my point across.No amount > of > > "education" would make Hussein's art > > appreciated by some,and those who are offended by > > Hussein's art are no less "educated" > than you > > or me. > > Unless you get rid of your condescension about > educating > > people about what they should or shouldn't get > offended > > by,any discussion about solution to conflicts like > this is a > > non-starter. > > > > I am going to make one last try though. > > > > Say there are two groups A and B,with different value > > systems.A is offended by an act X and B is > not,apparently > > due to their different value systems. B encourages X > and > > this increases tensions in a society where A and B > live > > together.Lets see what are the possible solutions. > > > > 1.Both A and B tell each other to go take a hike and > they > > would do according to how they feel fit. > > 2.Both A and B are sure that their value systems are > > superior and they try to convert each other to their > own > > view points through dialog etc. > > 3.Both A and B recognize that there are irreconcilable > > differences in their world views.They also recognize > that > > they would respect the differences and try to honor > them to > > the extent possible while also trying to achieve their > own > > goals through whatever means possible. > > > > If liberal fanatics like you will keep on engaging in > > #2,(which in my opinion is even worse than #1 because > #1 > > does not involve condescension) that you are doing > right > > now,you will always enable religious fanatics from the > other > > side who will try to convert you to their view > point.Why is > > their stand less valid than yours? > > If you engage in #3 ,you will enable moderates from > the > > other side who will listen to you if you listen to > them. > > The big leap of understanding that you need to make is > that > > there can be two internally consistent value systems > which > > will lead to opposing positions on many issues,and > both > > these value systems are equally valid. > > > > Regards > > Rahul > > > > --- On Sun, 8/31/08, Yousuf > > wrote: > > > > > From: Yousuf > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and > > Transgressions > > > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > > , rahul_capri at yahoo.com > > > Cc: "Sarai list" > > > > > Date: Sunday, August 31, 2008, 9:40 AM > > > When I mention education, I primarily include > media in > > it. > > > But the media is careless and works only on the > > diktats of > > > industry and politicians. So the prime > responsibility > > (of > > > making sure that their art is appreciated) falls > on > > the arts > > > fraternity itself. At least until we find a > better > > solution. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 8/30/08, Rahul Asthana > > > wrote: > > > > > > > From: Rahul Asthana > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and > > > Transgressions > > > > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > > > , ysaeed7 at yahoo.com > > > > Cc: "Sarai list" > > > > > > > Date: Saturday, August 30, 2008, 9:58 PM > > > > "They have not been educated to > appreciate > > the > > > nuances > > > > of the medium or the message." > > > > Yousuf, I am sorry but that's > > condescending.By the > > > same > > > > token a religious person can say that the > artist > > has > > > not > > > > been taught the nuances of religious > > sensibilities.My > > > point > > > > is that if two groups having different > values > > have to > > > > coexist in a society,they have to be > tolerant > > towards > > > each > > > > other. > > > > I do not advocate any limit to the freedom > of > > > > expression,but there should not be complete > > > callousness > > > > towards the feelings of groups.Painters like > > Hussein > > > and > > > > other heretics would always keep producing > works > > that > > > would > > > > offend,and perhaps thats necessary too;but > if > > some of > > > the > > > > people in the media,and I do not mean the > media > > which > > > > actually represents these groups, can > understand > > and > > > voice > > > > their feelings,then emotions would probably > not > > flare > > > up to > > > > that extent. > > > > That is the middle way. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 8/30/08, Yousuf > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: Yousuf > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life > and > > > > Transgressions > > > > > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > > > > , > rahul_capri at yahoo.com > > > > > Cc: "Sarai list" > > > > > > > > > Date: Saturday, August 30, 2008, 9:31 > PM > > > > > Dear Rahul > > > > > I had difficulty following your first > > sentence > > > (and a > > > > few > > > > > others), but yes, to put it in simple > > language, > > > people > > > > have > > > > > been offended by Hussain's > paintings, > > and > > > they are > > > > not > > > > > always at fault. They have not been > educated > > to > > > > appreciate > > > > > the nuances of the medium or the > message. > > And the > > > art > > > > > fraternity doesn't have the urge to > go > > to the > > > > people and > > > > > explain what they do and why they do. > The > > > politician > > > > of > > > > > course is too happy to cash in on the > > ignorance > > > of the > > > > > public. > > > > > > > > > > Incidentally, countless > > provocative/blasphemous > > > art or > > > > > statements have been made in the past > but > > not all > > > of > > > > them > > > > > led to a public outcry. Almost all > known > > cases > > > where a > > > > piece > > > > > of art/literature has led to violence, > are > > those > > > where > > > > > somebody (or some political party) used > them > > to > > > spread > > > > the > > > > > flames. In most cases, the protesters > > haven't > > > seen > > > > or > > > > > read what they have been protesting > against. > > > > > > > > > > > > So, should the artists make such > provocative > > > works > > > > only for > > > > > themselves or their closest friends, > and > > never > > > allow > > > > them to > > > > > go public. Or should they (and their > > > institutions) > > > > create an > > > > > atmosphere of awareness where the > public can > > > > appreciate > > > > > their art and not tear it apart? I > don't > > find > > > a > > > > third > > > > > alternative. > > > > > > > > > > Yousuf > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 8/30/08, Rahul Asthana > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > From: Rahul Asthana > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of > Life > > and > > > > > Transgressions > > > > > > To: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com, > > "Shuddhabrata > > > > > Sengupta" > > > > > > > Cc: "Sarai list" > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Saturday, August 30, 2008, > 8:42 > > PM > > > > > > Dear Yousuf, > > > > > > > > > > > > I think the classic liberal stand > of > > > reductionist > > > > > > extrapolation,in which one > develops > > certain > > > set > > > > of > > > > > canonical > > > > > > principles and expects them to > govern > > all > > > > discourse on > > > > > a > > > > > > certain topic, is not necessarily > > > philosophically > > > > > incorrect > > > > > > from their point of view,but > > insufficient > > > and > > > > improper > > > > > if we > > > > > > want to live in a tolerant liberal > > society.I > > > will > > > > try > > > > > to > > > > > > elaborate: > > > > > > The point is not that Hussein as a > > Muslim > > > can > > > > paint > > > > > Hindu > > > > > > deities,nude or otherwise or > whether > > his > > > > intention was > > > > > to > > > > > > insult,or not.The point is also > not > > that the > > > his > > > > > paintings > > > > > > can be artistic and break new > grounds > > of > > > > expression > > > > > > etc.Neither is it the point that > he > > should > > > have > > > > the > > > > > freedom > > > > > > of expression to paint whatever he > > wants.The > > > > point is > > > > > also > > > > > > not that the people who attacked > him > > were > > > wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > The point that I have been trying > to > > make is > > > that > > > > all > > > > > the > > > > > > above things are true;but still a > > painting > > > that > > > > he has > > > > > made > > > > > > can be offensive to many > people.Now,the > > > classic > > > > > reductionist > > > > > > line here is that,offense is > > > > subjective.Obviously,we > > > > > > can't be bothered about every > > person who > > > > takes > > > > > offense > > > > > > at any random stuff, can we?To > that I > > would > > > say, > > > > using > > > > > our > > > > > > own personal judgment,depending > upon > > our > > > > interactions > > > > > with > > > > > > people, we can make out most of > the > > times > > > if > > > > > something is > > > > > > truly offensive to a large group > of > > people > > > or > > > > not.If > > > > > we > > > > > > can't,we should talk to > > people.IMHO,I > > > > don't > > > > > think I > > > > > > should take the easy way out of > hiding > > > behind the > > > > > principles > > > > > > of freedom of expression and > visual > > > metaphors > > > > etc.We > > > > > should > > > > > > always support freedom of > > expression,but if > > > we > > > > can > > > > > surmise > > > > > > that a particular act of art was > > done,when > > > it was > > > > > probably > > > > > > apparent that it would hurt the > > > sensibilities of > > > > a > > > > > large > > > > > > group of people,we should call it > for > > > "bad > > > > > taste". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we have respect for and engage > in > > dialog > > > with > > > > the > > > > > > moderates of groups we may not > have to > > deal > > > with > > > > the > > > > > > extremists. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Shuddha, > > > > > > > > > > > > I think you mentioned earlier how > > religious > > > > people > > > > > offend > > > > > > the sensitivities of > atheists.Could you > > > please > > > > > elaborate? > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > Rahul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 8/30/08, Shuddhabrata > > Sengupta > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] > Ways of > > Life > > > and > > > > > > Transgressions > > > > > > > To: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com > > > > > > > Cc: "Sarai list" > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Saturday, August 30, > 2008, > > 2:44 > > > AM > > > > > > > Dear Yousuf, dear all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > thank you very much, Yousuf > for > > your > > > mail. I > > > > > really > > > > > > > appreciate your > > > > > > > point of drawing attention to > the > > > available > > > > > > vocabularies of > > > > > > > visual > > > > > > > representation and the way in > > which > > > they > > > > > determine or > > > > > > > influence the > > > > > > > universe of visual > > repsesentatiation, > > > if > > > > only to > > > > > > underline > > > > > > > the fact > > > > > > > that no visual artist is ever > > divorced > > > from > > > > the > > > > > > context tat > > > > > > > they are > > > > > > > born into. I have nowhere > written > > > about why > > > > > Husain > > > > > > does > > > > > > > not choose > > > > > > > to represent themes from the > > Islamic > > > canon, > > > > and I > > > > > > totally > > > > > > > agree with > > > > > > > you that he does not do so > because > > they > > > are > > > > not > > > > > > available > > > > > > > to him in > > > > > > > his cultural miieu, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for apparently > transgressive > > cases > > > like > > > > > Husain or > > > > > > Dillu > > > > > > > Ram > > > > > > > Kausari, I cannnot see why > they > > should > > > not b > > > > > > celebrated. > > > > > > > Hindus > > > > > > > should honour Husain and > Muslims > > should > > > > honour > > > > > Dillu > > > > > > Ram. > > > > > > > In this way > > > > > > > they would ensure that acts > of > > > 'road > > > > > crossing' > > > > > > need > > > > > > > not necessarily > > > > > > > end in lethal accidents, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > warm regards, and hoping for > many > > more > > > road > > > > > crossings, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 29-Aug-08, at 8:25 PM, > Yousuf > > Saeed > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Shuddha, others > > > > > > > > I really appreciate your > > > highlighting > > > > of the > > > > > fact > > > > > > that > > > > > > > Hussain's > > > > > > > > intention may not be of > > insulting > > > the > > > > Hindus > > > > > by > > > > > > > drawing the deities > > > > > > > > in the nude or > otherwise. I > > am not > > > a > > > > > defender of > > > > > > > Hussain, but would > > > > > > > > like to put across a few > > points. > > > Many > > > > people > > > > > (on > > > > > > this > > > > > > > list and > > > > > > > > elsewhere) have pointed > out > > that > > > > Hussain > > > > > never > > > > > > drew > > > > > > > any Muslim > > > > > > > > character (such as the > > Prophet) in > > > this > > > > > manner, > > > > > > and > > > > > > > therefore his > > > > > > > > intention must be to > insult > > the > > > Hindus. > > > > They > > > > > also > > > > > > say > > > > > > > that such an > > > > > > > > act by any artist in a > Muslim > > > country > > > > (like > > > > > Saudi > > > > > > > Arabia) would > > > > > > > > result in death penalty, > and > > so > > > on. But > > > > > maybe > > > > > > Hussain > > > > > > > did not draw > > > > > > > > an Islamic character in > an > > > > > "immodest" > > > > > > > posture simply because such > > > > > > > > an image or icon > doesn’t > > exist > > > in the > > > > > > Islam's > > > > > > > visual cultural > > > > > > > > tradition. If he does > it, > > then > > > that > > > > would be > > > > > > > deliberately > > > > > > > > provocative (although I > am > > not > > > saying > > > > it > > > > > > shouldn't > > > > > > > be done). But he > > > > > > > > could draw a Hindu deity > in > > the > > > nude > > > > because > > > > > such > > > > > > a > > > > > > > tradition > > > > > > > > exists in our Indian > visual > > > culture. I > > > > doubt > > > > > if > > > > > > he > > > > > > > avoids > > > > > > > > the depiction of Muslim > > themes > > > because > > > > he > > > > > is > > > > > > scared > > > > > > > of the > > > > > > > > Islamists. Maybe he > simply > > > can't > > > > relate > > > > > to it > > > > > > as > > > > > > > an Indian. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If I as an artist cannot > > express > > > my > > > > certain > > > > > > feelings > > > > > > > in the > > > > > > > > language that has been > taught > > to > > > be me > > > > by my > > > > > > parents, > > > > > > > and I > > > > > > > > suddenly discover a new > > language > > > that > > > > allows > > > > > me > > > > > > to > > > > > > > express that > > > > > > > > peculiar feeling in a > much > > better > > > way > > > > than > > > > > what > > > > > > my > > > > > > > mother tongue > > > > > > > > did, I would be happy to > use > > the > > > new > > > > > language. > > > > > > There > > > > > > > are thousands > > > > > > > > of poets and artists who > > found a > > > new > > > > way of > > > > > > expression > > > > > > > in a > > > > > > > > language which every one > in > > their > > > midst > > > > had > > > > > found > > > > > > > "inferior" – I am > > > > > > > > > talking for example of > the > > > tradition of > > > > > Persian > > > > > > poets > > > > > > > of South Asia > > > > > > > > who also wrote verses in > > Hindi or > > > > Hinduvi. > > > > > While > > > > > > poets > > > > > > > such as > > > > > > > > Masud Sa'd Salman, > Amir > > > Khusrau, > > > > > Abdurrahim > > > > > > > Khane-khana, Ghalib, or > > > > > > > > Iqbal became famous for > their > > > exquisite > > > > > verse in > > > > > > > Persian, their > > > > > > > > heart pours out better > in > > their > > > > Hinduvi, > > > > > Urdu or > > > > > > Braj > > > > > > > poetry where > > > > > > > > they can come down to > the > > earth > > > from > > > > the > > > > > lofty > > > > > > royal > > > > > > > palaces. We > > > > > > > > often say, "Unki > Hindi > > > shayeri > > > > mein > > > > > mitti ki > > > > > > > khushbu aati hai" (one > > > > > > > > can smell the earth in > their > > > vernacular > > > > > poetry). > > > > > > And I > > > > > > > > think Hussain is no > > different > > > from > > > > them. He > > > > > > cannot > > > > > > > draw an Islamic > > > > > > > > character in the nude > because > > > it's > > > > > probably > > > > > > not in > > > > > > > his palette, or > > > > > > > > doesn't touch his > heart. > > (And > > > we > > > > cannot > > > > > force > > > > > > him > > > > > > > to do it to > > > > > > > > become more politically > > correct). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You may say that a lot > of > > > > semi-pornographic > > > > > > scenes > > > > > > > have been drawn > > > > > > > > in Mughal or Persian > > miniatures, > > > and he > > > > > could > > > > > > have > > > > > > > followed that. > > > > > > > > But that's not the > point. > > > Hindu > > > > deities > > > > > are > > > > > > > flexible enough for us > > > > > > > > to turn them around the > way > > we > > > wish, to > > > > > express a > > > > > > > certain feeling > > > > > > > > that cannot be expressed > any > > other > > > way. > > > > So > > > > > why > > > > > > not > > > > > > > appreciate and > > > > > > > > celebrate that fact. (I > know > > such > > > a > > > > > statement > > > > > > from me > > > > > > > might raise > > > > > > > > some eyebrows). I maybe > a > > Muslim > > > but I > > > > > appreciate > > > > > > the > > > > > > > fact that you > > > > > > > > can literally play with > many > > Hindu > > > > deities. > > > > > Just > > > > > > the > > > > > > > other day I > > > > > > > > heard Pandit Jasraj sing > a > > khayal > > > in > > > > which > > > > > the > > > > > > lyrics > > > > > > > repeatedly > > > > > > > > referred to Krishna as a > chor > > > (thief). > > > > Does > > > > > that > > > > > > > insult a Hindu? Or > > > > > > > > would it insult a Hindu > if > > this > > > khayal > > > > was > > > > > sung > > > > > > by > > > > > > > Ustad Amir Khan? > > > > > > > > (Incidentally, a large > number > > of > > > > traditional > > > > > > Hindu > > > > > > > devotional > > > > > > > > lyrics sung in classical > > music > > > have > > > > reached > > > > > us > > > > > > via > > > > > > > Muslim gharana > > > > > > > > musicians, and much of > > devotional > > > Hindu > > > > > visual > > > > > > > mythology has come > > > > > > > > to us via patwa artists > of > > Bengal > > > who > > > > are > > > > > > > > all Muslim. Can > M.F.Hussain > > be > > > > detached > > > > > from > > > > > > that > > > > > > > continuity?) > > > > > > > > Much of the popular > calendar > > and > > > poster > > > > art > > > > > of > > > > > > 20th > > > > > > > century showing > > > > > > > > Hindu deities was drawn > by an > > > artist > > > > called > > > > > Hasan > > > > > > Raza > > > > > > > Raja of > > > > > > > > Meerut. And the manner > in > > which > > > most > > > > Hindu > > > > > > deities are > > > > > > > visualized > > > > > > > > today comes from the > > pioneering > > > work of > > > > Raja > > > > > Ravi > > > > > > > Varma who was > > > > > > > > clearly inspired by > western > > style > > > of > > > > art > > > > > where > > > > > > human > > > > > > > models were > > > > > > > > used to visualize the > gods > > and > > > > goddesses. > > > > > So, > > > > > > does all > > > > > > > this insult > > > > > > > > the Hindus? And what is > the > > > > > "original" > > > > > > Hindu > > > > > > > way of imagining the > > > > > > > > deities any way? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I liked your quoting > from > > Kausari > > > who > > > > is > > > > > among > > > > > > many > > > > > > > Hindu poets who > > > > > > > > have written/announced > their > > > emotive > > > > > affiliation > > > > > > with > > > > > > > Prophet > > > > > > > > Mohammad in the same way > as > > say > > > with > > > > > Krishna. I > > > > > > doubt > > > > > > > if such > > > > > > > > actions in the past may > have > > met > > > with > > > > much > > > > > > resistance > > > > > > > (as you have > > > > > > > > mentioned) – such > examples > > were > > > a > > > > norm. > > > > > There > > > > > > are > > > > > > > many Hindu poets > > > > > > > > who have written > marsiyas > > full of > > > > pathos for > > > > > Imam > > > > > > > Hussain's > > > > > > > > martyrdom, and many > Muslim > > poets > > > who > > > > > composed > > > > > > adorable > > > > > > > songs for > > > > > > > > Krishna. I don't > think it > > was > > > too > > > > hard > > > > > to > > > > > > cross > > > > > > > the road in those > > > > > > > > days. So, why are we > busy > > throwing > > > > stones > > > > > onto > > > > > > each > > > > > > > other from the > > > > > > > > two sides of a road? I > could > > > imagine > > > > that at > > > > > > least an > > > > > > > online forum > > > > > > > > like Sarai could act > like a > > subway > > > or a > > > > > walk-over > > > > > > > bridge to cross > > > > > > > > the busy highway. But > > currently it > > > > seems > > > > > more > > > > > > like a > > > > > > > road-block. > > > > > > > > And we are all paying > the > > toll. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yousuf > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 8/29/08, > > Shuddhabrata > > > > Sengupta > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> From: Shuddhabrata > > Sengupta > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Subject: > [Reader-list] > > Ways of > > > Life > > > > and > > > > > > > Transgressions > > > > > > > >> To: "Sarai > > list" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Date: Friday, August > 29, > > 2008, > > > 1:31 > > > > PM > > > > > > > >> Dear All, > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> I have been > intrigued by > > the > > > > exchange on > > > > > the > > > > > > list > > > > > > > of late > > > > > > > >> that has > > > > > > > >> preferred to > jettison the > > term > > > > > > 'religion' > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > >> prefer in its stead > the > > > > > > > >> euphimistic phrase - > > 'ways > > > of > > > > > life'. > > > > > > I am > > > > > > > referring > > > > > > > >> to the exchange > > > > > > > >> between Chanchal > Malviya > > and > > > > Jeebesh > > > > > Bagchi, > > > > > > > arising out of > > > > > > > >> the > > > > > > > >> heated > correspondence on > > the > > > > disruption > > > > > of a > > > > > > small > > > > > > > >> exhibition devoted > > > > > > > >> to M.F.Husain. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> i am quite convinced > that > > the > > > term > > > > > > > 'religion' > > > > > > > >> which derives from > the > > > > > > > >> latin root of the > word > > religio > > > > (bond) > > > > > and > > > > > > religare > > > > > > > (the > > > > > > > >> verb form of > > > > > > > >> 'to bind') > > remains for > > > me a > > > > > useful > > > > > > word to > > > > > > > name the > > > > > > > >> act of committing > > > > > > > >> oneself in any form. > In > > this > > > sense, > > > > > atheists > > > > > > and > > > > > > > agnostics > > > > > > > >> are just > > > > > > > >> as religious (in > their > > > commitment > > > > to > > > > > doubt) > > > > > > as are > > > > > > > those > > > > > > > >> blessed with > > > > > > > >> faith. I would > describe > > my > > > > religious > > > > > > commitment as > > > > > > > >> agnosticism - a > > > > > > > >> commitment to doubt > > > everything, > > > > > (including > > > > > > the > > > > > > > value of > > > > > > > >> doubt) and a > > > > > > > >> certainty that we > cannot > > speak > > > > certainly > > > > > of > > > > > > > anything at > > > > > > > >> all, because > > > > > > > >> there are always > > > counterfactuals, > > > > and > > > > > > hitherto > > > > > > > unimagined, > > > > > > > >> or unknown > > > > > > > >> possibilities, that > goad > > us on > > > to > > > > yet > > > > > newer > > > > > > > possibilities, > > > > > > > >> or to > > > > > > > >> return to some very > old > > ones. > > > This > > > > is > > > > > just to > > > > > > say > > > > > > > that it > > > > > > > >> would be a > > > > > > > >> mistake to assume, > as is > > often > > > done > > > > with > > > > > some > > > > > > > arrogance on > > > > > > > >> the part > > > > > > > >> of the more > pronouncedly > > > > > 'faithful', > > > > > > that > > > > > > > atheists > > > > > > > >> and agnostics have > > > > > > > >> no > 'spiritual' > > quests. > > > They > > > > do, > > > > > and > > > > > > they > > > > > > > dont, just > > > > > > > >> as those who are > > > > > > > >> ostentatiously > > > 'religious' > > > > do, > > > > > and > > > > > > dont, > > > > > > > or do only > > > > > > > >> in as much as it > > > > > > > >> allows them to burn > a few > > > churches > > > > as > > > > > they go > > > > > > > questing. If > > > > > > > >> Hindu > > > > > > > >> fundamentalists have > > chosen to > > > > renounce > > > > > the > > > > > > ties > > > > > > > that bind > > > > > > > >> (religio) > > > > > > > >> them to life, who > would I > > be > > > to > > > > object, > > > > > > because, I > > > > > > > am not a > > > > > > > >> Hindu. > > > > > > > >> But I have no > quarrel > > with the > > > term > > > > > 'ways > > > > > > of > > > > > > > life'. > > > > > > > >> The more words we > > > > > > > >> have, the better. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> This discussion > arose out > > of a > > > rage > > > > felt > > > > > by > > > > > > some > > > > > > > that a > > > > > > > >> group of > > > > > > > >> zealots had broken > and > > > disrupted an > > > > > > exhibition > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > >> featured some > > > > > > > >> images of and by > Husain, > > and > > > the > > > > counter > > > > > rage > > > > > > felt > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > >> others that the > > > > > > > >> zealots had no right > to > > be > > > > criticised > > > > > because > > > > > > they > > > > > > > were > > > > > > > >> acting to > > > > > > > >> protect the honour > of the > > > Hindu > > > > deities > > > > > that > > > > > > they > > > > > > > felt > > > > > > > >> Husain had > > > > > > > >> insulted. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> The second case is > as > > follows > > > - > > > > what > > > > > right > > > > > > has > > > > > > > Husain, a > > > > > > > >> Muslim to > > > > > > > >> insult Hindu deities > by > > > portraying > > > > them > > > > > in a > > > > > > > manner that is > > > > > > > >> offensive > > > > > > > >> to the sentiments of > many > > > Hindus. > > > > > > (Husain's > > > > > > > >> motivations, or the > > > > > > > >> aesthetic merit of > his > > images > > > are > > > > not > > > > > the > > > > > > issue > > > > > > > here, what > > > > > > > >> is at > > > > > > > >> issue is the insult > seen > > to > > > have > > > > > occurred > > > > > > when a > > > > > > > non-Hindu > > > > > > > >> 'touches' > > > > > > > >> a sacred Hindu icon > with > > his > > > > > > 'insulting' > > > > > > > >> imagination. Those > so > > > > > > > >> enraged, also throw > the > > > following > > > > > challenge, > > > > > > has > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > >> opposite ever > > > > > > > >> occurred? > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> I am not here to > make a > > case > > > for > > > > Husain. > > > > > (As > > > > > > I > > > > > > > have said > > > > > > > >> before I do > > > > > > > >> not have a very high > > opinion > > > of his > > > > work > > > > > as > > > > > > an > > > > > > > artist). I > > > > > > > >> am here to > > > > > > > >> make a case for what > is > > > considered > > > > to be > > > > > > > transgression. No > > > > > > > >> one can be > > > > > > > >> sure when they have > > > transgressed. > > > > > Because > > > > > > > transgression can > > > > > > > >> be seen > > > > > > > >> to occur even when > the > > motives > > > of > > > > the > > > > > person > > > > > > > concerned are > > > > > > > >> far from > > > > > > > >> transgression. > Husain can > > say > > > in > > > > his > > > > > defence, > > > > > > and > > > > > > > indeed > > > > > > > >> has on > > > > > > > >> occasion said that > his > > > paintings > > > > are an > > > > > index > > > > > > of > > > > > > > his > > > > > > > >> appreciation of > > > > > > > >> Indic culture and > its > > > diversity of > > > > > > expressions, of > > > > > > > his > > > > > > > >> closeness > > > > > > > >> (since early > childhood) > > to > > > forms of > > > > > iconic > > > > > > imagery > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > >> popular Hinduism. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Here his intent is > > clearly not > > > to > > > > > insult, on > > > > > > the > > > > > > > contrary, > > > > > > > >> it is to > > > > > > > >> declare his > appreciation > > for > > > the > > > > beauty > > > > > of > > > > > > the > > > > > > > iconography > > > > > > > >> of popular > > > > > > > >> Hinduism, a charge > for > > which > > > he > > > > would be > > > > > > equally > > > > > > > hated by > > > > > > > >> both Hindu > > > > > > > >> as well as Muslim > > > fundamentalists. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> It has not been > noticed > > that > > > no > > > > Muslim > > > > > > > fundamentalist or > > > > > > > >> even Muslim > > > > > > > >> religious figure has > come > > out > > > in > > > > defence > > > > > of > > > > > > > Husain. They > > > > > > > >> are in fact > > > > > > > >> in tacit agreement > with > > their > > > Hindu > > > > > peers. A > > > > > > > Muslim making > > > > > > > >> images, > > > > > > > >> and that too of > Hindu > > > goddesses, > > > > because > > > > > he > > > > > > is > > > > > > > drawn to > > > > > > > >> them, can > > > > > > > >> only be seen as > blasphemy > > in > > > their > > > > eyes. > > > > > On > > > > > > this, > > > > > > > like on > > > > > > > >> so many > > > > > > > >> other issues, Hindu > and > > Muslim > > > > > > fundamentalists are > > > > > > > in total > > > > > > > >> agreement. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Let me come now to > an > > > interesting > > > > > > counterfactual > > > > > > > argument. > > > > > > > >> I refer to > > > > > > > >> the life an work of > a > > little > > > known > > > > late > > > > > > nineteenth > > > > > > > century > > > > > > > >> and early > > > > > > > >> twentieth century > Urdu > > poet of > > > > Delhi > > > > > called > > > > > > Dillu > > > > > > > Ram > > > > > > > >> Kausari. Now as > > > > > > > >> his name suggests, > Dillu > > Ram > > > was a > > > > > Hindu. The > > > > > > > trouble is, > > > > > > > >> throughout > > > > > > > >> his life he composed > > > deliriously > > > > > passionate > > > > > > > elegies > > > > > > > >> (na'at) to the > > > > > > > >> Prophet Muhammad. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> One of his quatrains > went > > as > > > > follows > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Kuch ‘ishq e > Muhammad > > mein > > > nahin > > > > shart > > > > > e > > > > > > > Musulman! > > > > > > > >> Hai Kausari Hindu > bhii > > > talabgaar e > > > > > Muhammad! > > > > > > > >> Allah re! kyaa > raunaq e > > bazaar > > > e > > > > > Muhammad > > > > > > > >> Ke Ma’bood e Jahan > bhi > > hai > > > > kharidaar e > > > > > > Muhammad! > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Being a Muslim is > not a > > > condition > > > > for > > > > > loving > > > > > > > Muhammad! > > > > > > > >> Kausari, the Hindu, > is > > also a > > > > seeker of > > > > > > Muhammad! > > > > > > > >> By Allah! How > delightful > > is > > > the > > > > bazaar > > > > > of > > > > > > Muhammad > > > > > > > >> For the Lord of the > > Worlds is > > > also > > > > a > > > > > buyer of > > > > > > > Muhammad! > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> This kind of > sentiment > > shocked > > > both > > > > > Hindus > > > > > > and > > > > > > > Muslims. > > > > > > > >> Hindus, > > > > > > > >> because how could a > Hindu > > sing > > > what > > > > > amounted > > > > > > to > > > > > > > love songs > > > > > > > >> to a > > > > > > > >> Muslim prophet, and > > Muslims, > > > for > > > > the > > > > > same > > > > > > reason. > > > > > > > Both felt > > > > > > > >> slighted > > > > > > > >> and insulted by the > > > transgressive > > > > way in > > > > > > which the > > > > > > > >> imagination of the > > > > > > > >> poet had > > 'touched' the > > > body > > > > of > > > > > what > > > > > > was > > > > > > > sacred for > > > > > > > >> one, and not, for > > > > > > > >> the other. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Another poem, which > > proved to > > > be > > > > even > > > > > more > > > > > > > controversial, > > > > > > > >> went like > > > > > > > >> this - > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Rahmatulilalamin kay > > Hashar > > > mein > > > > > maana’ > > > > > > khulay > > > > > > > >> Khalq saari Shaafa e > Roz > > e > > > Jaza kay > > > > > saath hai > > > > > > > >> Laykay Dillu Raam ko > > jannat > > > mein > > > > jab > > > > > Hazrat > > > > > > gaye > > > > > > > >> Ma’loom huwa kay > Hindu > > bhi > > > > Mahboob e > > > > > Khuda > > > > > > kay > > > > > > > saath hai! > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> The meaning of > “Mercy > > unto > > > the > > > > > Worlds” > > > > > > became > > > > > > > apparent > > > > > > > >> on Judgement Day: > > > > > > > >> The whole creation > is > > with the > > > > > Intercessor of > > > > > > The > > > > > > > Day of > > > > > > > >> Acquittal > > > > > > > >> When the Prophet > took > > Dillu > > > Ram > > > > with him > > > > > into > > > > > > > Paradise > > > > > > > >> It was known that > this > > Hindu > > > too is > > > > with > > > > > the > > > > > > > Beloved of > > > > > > > >> God! > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> This poem, > especially > > > scandalized > > > > Muslim > > > > > > > orthodoxy, because > > > > > > > >> it dared > > > > > > > >> to suggest that the > > prophet > > > himself > > > > > would > > > > > > > intercede on > > > > > > > >> behalf of an > > > > > > > >> unbeliever on the > day of > > > judgement. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> It is interesting to > note > > that > > > > Dillu Ram > > > > > > never > > > > > > > became a > > > > > > > >> Muslim, at > > > > > > > >> least not in his > > lifetime. An > > > > article in > > > > > the > > > > > > > interesting > > > > > > > >> web portal > > > > > > > >> Chowk > > > > > http://www.chowk.com/articles/12692 by > > > > > > one > > > > > > > Asif > > > > > > > >> Naqshbandi says > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> "It is also > said > > that > > > Dillu > > > > Ram, > > > > > > delirious > > > > > > > with his > > > > > > > >> love, would > > > > > > > >> sometimes stand in > the > > middle > > > of > > > > the > > > > > bazaar > > > > > > in > > > > > > > Delhi, put > > > > > > > >> chains > > > > > > > >> around his neck and > feet > > and > > > shout > > > > at > >> > > the top > > > > > > of > > > > > > > his voice > > > > > > > >> to all > > > > > > > >> passers-by, > “Muhammad! > > > Muhammad! > > > > > Muhammad! > > > > > > Yes! > > > > > > > Muhammad > > > > > > > >> is the > > > > > > > >> Beloved of God! > Muhammad > > is > > > the > > > > first > > > > > and > > > > > > only > > > > > > > Beloved of > > > > > > > >> God! If God > > > > > > > >> loves you, He loves > you > > > because of > > > > His > > > > > > Beloved!” > > > > > > > Some > > > > > > > >> people even > > > > > > > >> stoned him and he > would > > often > > > come > > > > home > > > > > > covered in > > > > > > > blood > > > > > > > >> but he was > > > > > > > >> totally lost in his > love > > of > > > the > > > > Prophet > > > > > > (peace and > > > > > > > >> blessings be upon > > > > > > > >> him!)" > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> There is an > apocryphal > > story > > > of how > > > > on > > > > > his > > > > > > > deathbed Dillu > > > > > > > >> Ram Kausari > > > > > > > >> had a vision of the > > Prophet > > > > himself, who > > > > > came > > > > > > to > > > > > > > him, and > > > > > > > >> that he > > > > > > > >> read the Kalima with > him. > > But > > > as > > > > this > > > > > vision > > > > > > is > > > > > > > reported to > > > > > > > >> have > > > > > > > >> appeared only to > him, as > > he > > > lay > > > > dying, > > > > > and as > > > > > > he > > > > > > > is no > > > > > > > >> longer with us > > > > > > > >> to either confirm or > deny > > this > > > > deathbed > > > > > > > conversion, we can > > > > > > > >> only > > > > > > > >> surmise that it was > a > > > generous, but > > > > > somewhat > > > > > > > disingenuous > > > > > > > >> method of > > > > > > > >> having Dillu > Ram's > > > somewhat > > > > > unorthodox > > > > > > Muslim > > > > > > > >> apologists claim him > > > > > > > >> for themselves. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> As far as we are > > concerned, > > > Dillu > > > > Ram > > > > > > Kausari, > > > > > > > caused grave > > > > > > > >> offence, > > > > > > > >> by his love for the > > Prophet, > > > both > > > > to > > > > > Hindu as > > > > > > well > > > > > > > as to > > > > > > > >> Muslim > > > > > > > >> zealots, as long as > he > > lived. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> If, the things we > call > > > religions > > > > are > > > > > > 'ways of > > > > > > > life' > > > > > > > >> then we can > > > > > > > >> always determine for > > ourselves > > > > whether > > > > > we > > > > > > want to > > > > > > > walk on a > > > > > > > >> one way > > > > > > > >> street that runs > into a > > dead > > > end, > > > > or to > > > > > cross > > > > > > many > > > > > > > paths, > > > > > > > >> walking > > > > > > > >> down one way, for > one > > purpose, > > > down > > > > > another > > > > > > way > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > >> another, and > > > > > > > >> sometimes just > standing > > in > > > between > > > > > paths, > > > > > > figuring > > > > > > > out our > > > > > > > >> journey, > > > > > > > >> as we go about our > lives. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> I find cases like > Husain > > and > > > Dillu > > > > Ram > > > > > > Kausari > > > > > > > interesting > > > > > > > >> not > > > > > > > >> because of what they > > paint of > > > what > > > > they > > > > > say, > > > > > > but > > > > > > > because > > > > > > > >> they seem to > > > > > > > >> cause such prolonged > > traffic > > > jams > > > > on the > > > > > > 'ways > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > >> life'. And all > they > > > > > > > >> were doing was > crossing > > the > > > road. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> thanks and regards, > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Shuddha > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> ----- > > > > > > > >> Shuddhabrata > Sengupta > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > >> reader-list: an open > > > discussion > > > > list on > > > > > media > > > > > > and > > > > > > > the city. > > > > > > > >> Critiques & > > Collaborations > > > > > > > >> To subscribe: send > an > > email to > > > > > > > >> > > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > with > > > > > subscribe > > > > > > in > > > > > > > the subject > > > > > > > >> header. > > > > > > > >> To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > >> List archive: > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > reader-list: an open > > discussion > > > list on > > > > > media and > > > > > > the > > > > > > > city. > > > > > > > > Critiques & > > Collaborations > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an > email > > to > > > > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > > > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject > > header. > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > > > > > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > > > > > > Raqs Media Collective > > > > > > > shuddha at sarai.net > > > > > > > www.sarai.net > > > > > > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > reader-list: an open > discussion > > list on > > > > media and > > > > > the > > > > > > city. > > > > > > > Critiques & > Collaborations > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email > to > > > > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > > subscribe > > > > in > > > > > the > > > > > > subject > > > > > > > header. > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From press at tank.tv Mon Sep 1 17:38:13 2008 From: press at tank.tv (tank.tv press) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 13:08:13 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] tank.tv Screenings at Tate Modern 19th - 21st September 2008. Message-ID: <78c84f090809010508v1a14afe8g3d0ac50e4094065@mail.gmail.com> *www.tank.tv at Tate Modern 19th - 21st September 2008* tank.tv has the pleasure of holding a weekend of screenings from its 2008 Guest Curators Programme in Tate Modern's Starr Auditorium. www.tank.tvinvited some of the world's foremost curators of artist's film and video to create exhibitions exclusively for its online platform. Four of these shows have been re-thought and re-constructed specifically for screening at Tate Modern. Join us after the screenings for wonderful cakes kindly provided by Patisserie Valerie and drinks generously supplied by Kirin and Firefly. Tickets are on sale now and available to book via Tate's website: http://www.tate.org.uk/modern/eventseducation/film/15464.htm *Ken Jacobs, Return to the Scene of the Crime. Friday 19 September 2008, 19.00* In a contemporary riff on one of his landmark works, the influential experimental filmmaker Ken Jacobs uses new technology to both interrogate and arouse a theatrical tableau, shot in 1905, based on Hogarth's Southwark Fair. The antique film print is probed, exploded and reconstituted in the digital domain with radical ingenuity and infectious wit. This extraordinary new work teaches us how to see. *The Young and Evil, Curated by Stuart Comer. Saturday 20 September 2008, 19.00* Reconsidering the historical contours and shifting relationships of sex and community in the digital age, a range of artists has been invited to select two works: one contemporary video shown to be shown online, and one historical film to be screened in the cinema. Selectors include AA Bronson, Drew Daniel, William E Jones, Daria Martin, Carlos Motta, Henrik Olesen, Karol Radziszewski, Emily Roysdon, Bruce Yonemoto and Akram Zaatari. *She doesn't think so but she's dressed for the h-bomb, curated by Negar Azimi. Sunday 21 September 2008, 15.00* 'She doesn't think so but she's dressed for the h-bomb' explores the weight of diverse histories in defining the current moment - whether manifest in the form of national myth, ritual, architecture or pop culture. Works by: Ziad Antar, Shahryrar Nashat, Rosalind Nashashibi, Yael Bartana, Iman Issa, Hassan Khan, The Atlas Group, Ahmet Ogut and Haris Epaminonda. *The Whole World, Curated by Ian White Sunday 21 September 2008, 17.00* Online The Whole World is an ongoing open archive to which anyone can contribute - an uncensored list of lists inaugurated by considering it as a formal and political device. Originally selected and submitted works are reorganized and augmented into this single programme including works by Claude Chuzel, Hollis Frampton, Dalia Neis, Uriel Orlow, Michael Robinson and Valerie Tevere. -- -- - - - - - - - - - - - - tank.tv 2nd Floor Princess House 50 - 60 Eastcastle Street London W1W 8EA press at tank.tv T: +44 (0)207323 3475 F: +44 (0)207631 4280 http://www.tank.tv - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Now showing: 'The Young and Evil' Curated by Stuart Comer 14th July - 21st September 2008 Fresh Moves - Out now! Order your copy on www.tank.tv "A significant archive of creative practices in the early years of twenty-first century England" Tyler Coburn, Tomorrow Unlimited --- tank.tv is an inspirational showcase for innovative work in film and video. Dedicated to exhibiting and promoting emerging and established international artists, www.tank.tv acts as a major online gallery and archive for video art. A platform for contemporary moving images. From mitoo at sarai.net Mon Sep 1 11:18:41 2008 From: mitoo at sarai.net (Mitoo Das) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 11:18:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Position in South Asian Art History at the University of Washington Message-ID: <48BB8239.6050701@sarai.net> Full time, tenure-track Assistant Professor position in South Asian art history, to begin September 2009. Salary commensurate with qualifications. Applications invited in any area of South Asian art and architectural history. Teach undergraduate and graduate courses, seminars; supervise M.A. and Ph.D. students. Candidate should have Ph.D. in art history; however, candidates in the final stages of completing their dissertation may be appointed on an acting basis. Include curriculum vitae; application letter including research interests; statement of teaching philosophy, experience; course syllabi; three letters of recommendation; dissertation abstract; any publications and/or three dissertation chapters. Materials due December 1, 2008. All University of Washington faculty engage in teaching, research and service. The University of Washington is committed to building a culturally diverse faculty and strongly encourages applications from female and minority candidates. The University of Washington is an affirmative action, equal opportunity employer. Contact Info: South Asian Art Search Committee Chair School of Art Box 353440 102 Art Building Stevens Way Seattle, Washington 98195-3440 Website: http://www.washington.edu _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 2 11:03:15 2008 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 22:33:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions In-Reply-To: <687292.49677.qm@web53605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <448388.35174.qm@web51404.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Rahul Why are you so scared of the word "education", and why are you seeing it in such limited terms. If you look at my last mail, I agreed that your solution #3 is good and I'd be happy if it works. But I emphasized about dialogue as part of the education. Don't you think dialogue and communication between the two conflicting parties would be an integral part of even your solution? What would you have to say about a counselor/psychiatrist who tries to resolve conflicts say between two spouses. His/her main role is to (a) know each side's story, and then (b) inform each spouse about the other's problem which was actually missing between them due to long gaps of non-communication. Most conflicts in the family or society occur because of the distance we create between two parties - we fear each other, imagine all sorts of strange notions about each other and strengthen the hatred about each other. If only we talked, we could have realized that much of our fears were baseless. Hence I am simply talking about creating bridges between two parties through communication. Why can't we for instance have a meeting/workshop between Hussain and the religious fanatics where they tell each other's story and try to explain why each party needs to be sensitive to others' feelings. I know this will not entirely remove either party's deep prejudices, and may lead to further flaring up, but some moderation may also happen. But I would again emphasize that those thoughts and ideas of both sides which are required for the dialogue should at least be available for everyone to see and understand. For instance, we only get to see a lot of hate-propaganda from the religious fanatics against the artist, but never see any effort from Hussain or the art fraternity to explain what this art is all about, and why he makes what he makes. The artist thinks that he/she doesn't need to explain anything. I am sorry, but I don't follow terms like reductionism, teleology, deontology, so maybe I am sounding a bit rigid to you. Yousuf --- On Tue, 9/2/08, Rahul Asthana wrote: > From: Rahul Asthana > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" , ysaeed7 at yahoo.com > Cc: "Sarai list" > Date: Tuesday, September 2, 2008, 2:01 AM > Dear Yousuf, > Your argument is what I call reductionist (from > dictionary.com=2.the practice of simplifying a complex idea, > issue, condition, or the like, esp. to the point of > minimizing, obscuring, or distorting it.). > When you talk about "millions of issues in our society > which people used to take with orthodox attitude",you > are basically creating a straw man.Many orthodox practices > have to be given up;we have no difference on that. > When two deontologies collide,we have to present a > teleological argument in favor of one or the other.In other > words,when two value frameworks reach conflicting position > on an issue,we have two ways we can approach the > conflict.The one who favors one value framework should > present a comparison of the two frameworks in terms of > social cost-benefit,or,The one who favors one value > framework tries to educate the other one to their system > just because its "better".Do you see the > difference between the two? > Now, in an engagement of two groups on perceived social > cost-benefit,there will be conflicts.Its hard to imagine how > two groups will have same perception of social > cost-benefit.But at least we would be trying to resolve > issues within a teleological framework which is a lot better > than "my way is better than your way and you have to be > educated to my way". > > Regards > Rahul > > > > > > > gate social cost-benefit,and not on the basis of what one > group thinks is right. > > --- On Mon, 9/1/08, Yousuf wrote: > > > From: Yousuf > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and > Transgressions > > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > , rahul_capri at yahoo.com > > Cc: "Sarai list" > > > Date: Monday, September 1, 2008, 9:12 AM > > Dear Rahul > > I understand your logic, but I think your alternative > no.3 > > is too idealized and utopian to achieve, although I > would > > love if it works. Also, it may apply only to some > > situations, not all. For instance, if a group of > people > > thinks that women are inferior and should remain > inside > > homes, or that we should ruin the environment by > cutting > > trees, wasting water and fuel, would you allow them to > > believe and act on this? You may call it my > condescending > > attitude, but why is it that we have managed to bring > an > > awareness and "reform" today about so many > > millions of issues in our society which people used to > take > > with orthodox attitude. I am talking about gender > equality, > > environment, education, health issues (although it is > still > > not enough). Nobody is born with politically correct > genes - > > we all acquire things as we grow. So what's the > big deal > > for instance about having arts appreciation as part of > the > > school curriculum or TV programmes. Should we allow > our > > mainstream media to remain condescending then? Why is > > television changing the attitude of people - why is > our > > society becoming more consumerist and aggressive and > > prejudiced? > > Look my condescending solution doesn't involve > simply > > education - I am talking about dialogue and awareness, > and > > not talking down somebody's throat which the TV > does > > today. > > > > Yousuf > > > > --- On Sun, 8/31/08, Rahul Asthana > > wrote: > > > > > From: Rahul Asthana > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and > > Transgressions > > > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > > , ysaeed7 at yahoo.com > > > Cc: "Sarai list" > > > > > Date: Sunday, August 31, 2008, 11:54 PM > > > Yousuf, > > > > > > I think i failed in getting my point across.No > amount > > of > > > "education" would make Hussein's > art > > > appreciated by some,and those who are offended by > > > Hussein's art are no less > "educated" > > than you > > > or me. > > > Unless you get rid of your condescension about > > educating > > > people about what they should or shouldn't > get > > offended > > > by,any discussion about solution to conflicts > like > > this is a > > > non-starter. > > > > > > I am going to make one last try though. > > > > > > Say there are two groups A and B,with different > value > > > systems.A is offended by an act X and B is > > not,apparently > > > due to their different value systems. B > encourages X > > and > > > this increases tensions in a society where A and > B > > live > > > together.Lets see what are the possible > solutions. > > > > > > 1.Both A and B tell each other to go take a hike > and > > they > > > would do according to how they feel fit. > > > 2.Both A and B are sure that their value systems > are > > > superior and they try to convert each other to > their > > own > > > view points through dialog etc. > > > 3.Both A and B recognize that there are > irreconcilable > > > differences in their world views.They also > recognize > > that > > > they would respect the differences and try to > honor > > them to > > > the extent possible while also trying to achieve > their > > own > > > goals through whatever means possible. > > > > > > If liberal fanatics like you will keep on > engaging in > > > #2,(which in my opinion is even worse than #1 > because > > #1 > > > does not involve condescension) that you are > doing > > right > > > now,you will always enable religious fanatics > from the > > other > > > side who will try to convert you to their view > > point.Why is > > > their stand less valid than yours? > > > If you engage in #3 ,you will enable moderates > from > > the > > > other side who will listen to you if you listen > to > > them. > > > The big leap of understanding that you need to > make is > > that > > > there can be two internally consistent value > systems > > which > > > will lead to opposing positions on many > issues,and > > both > > > these value systems are equally valid. > > > > > > Regards > > > Rahul > > > > > > --- On Sun, 8/31/08, Yousuf > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > From: Yousuf > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and > > > Transgressions > > > > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > > > , rahul_capri at yahoo.com > > > > Cc: "Sarai list" > > > > > > > Date: Sunday, August 31, 2008, 9:40 AM > > > > When I mention education, I primarily > include > > media in > > > it. > > > > But the media is careless and works only on > the > > > diktats of > > > > industry and politicians. So the prime > > responsibility > > > (of > > > > making sure that their art is appreciated) > falls > > on > > > the arts > > > > fraternity itself. At least until we find a > > better > > > solution. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 8/30/08, Rahul Asthana > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: Rahul Asthana > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life > and > > > > Transgressions > > > > > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > > > > , ysaeed7 at yahoo.com > > > > > Cc: "Sarai list" > > > > > > > > > Date: Saturday, August 30, 2008, 9:58 > PM > > > > > "They have not been educated to > > appreciate > > > the > > > > nuances > > > > > of the medium or the message." > > > > > Yousuf, I am sorry but that's > > > condescending.By the > > > > same > > > > > token a religious person can say that > the > > artist > > > has > > > > not > > > > > been taught the nuances of religious > > > sensibilities.My > > > > point > > > > > is that if two groups having different > > values > > > have to > > > > > coexist in a society,they have to be > > tolerant > > > towards > > > > each > > > > > other. > > > > > I do not advocate any limit to the > freedom > > of > > > > > expression,but there should not be > complete > > > > callousness > > > > > towards the feelings of groups.Painters > like > > > Hussein > > > > and > > > > > other heretics would always keep > producing > > works > > > that > > > > would > > > > > offend,and perhaps thats necessary > too;but > > if > > > some of > > > > the > > > > > people in the media,and I do not mean > the > > media > > > which > > > > > actually represents these groups, can > > understand > > > and > > > > voice > > > > > their feelings,then emotions would > probably > > not > > > flare > > > > up to > > > > > that extent. > > > > > That is the middle way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 8/30/08, Yousuf > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > From: Yousuf > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of > Life > > and > > > > > Transgressions > > > > > > To: "Shuddhabrata > Sengupta" > > > > > , > > rahul_capri at yahoo.com > > > > > > Cc: "Sarai list" > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Saturday, August 30, 2008, > 9:31 > > PM > > > > > > Dear Rahul > > > > > > I had difficulty following your > first > > > sentence > > > > (and a > > > > > few > > > > > > others), but yes, to put it in > simple > > > language, > > > > people > > > > > have > > > > > > been offended by Hussain's > > paintings, > > > and > > > > they are > > > > > not > > > > > > always at fault. They have not > been > > educated > > > to > > > > > appreciate > > > > > > the nuances of the medium or the > > message. > > > And the > > > > art > > > > > > fraternity doesn't have the > urge to > > go > > > to the > > > > > people and > > > > > > explain what they do and why they > do. > > The > > > > politician > > > > > of > > > > > > course is too happy to cash in on > the > > > ignorance > > > > of the > > > > > > public. > > > > > > > > > > > > Incidentally, countless > > > provocative/blasphemous > > > > art or > > > > > > statements have been made in the > past > > but > > > not all > > > > of > > > > > them > > > > > > led to a public outcry. Almost all > > known > > > cases > > > > where a > > > > > piece > > > > > > of art/literature has led to > violence, > > are > > > those > > > > where > > > > > > somebody (or some political party) > used > > them > > > to > > > > spread > > > > > the > > > > > > flames. In most cases, the > protesters > > > haven't > > > > seen > > > > > or > > > > > > read what they have been > protesting > > against. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So, should the artists make such > > provocative > > > > works > > > > > only for > > > > > > themselves or their closest > friends, > > and > > > never > > > > allow > > > > > them to > > > > > > go public. Or should they (and > their > > > > institutions) > > > > > create an > > > > > > atmosphere of awareness where the > > public can > > > > > appreciate > > > > > > their art and not tear it apart? I > > don't > > > find > > > > a > > > > > third > > > > > > alternative. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yousuf > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 8/30/08, Rahul Asthana > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Rahul Asthana > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] > Ways of > > Life > > > and > > > > > > Transgressions > > > > > > > To: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com, > > > "Shuddhabrata > > > > > > Sengupta" > > > > > > > > > Cc: "Sarai list" > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Saturday, August 30, > 2008, > > 8:42 > > > PM > > > > > > > Dear Yousuf, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think the classic liberal > stand > > of > > > > reductionist > > > > > > > extrapolation,in which one > > develops > > > certain > > > > set > > > > > of > > > > > > canonical > > > > > > > principles and expects them > to > > govern > > > all > > > > > discourse on > > > > > > a > > > > > > > certain topic, is not > necessarily > > > > philosophically > > > > > > incorrect > > > > > > > from their point of view,but > > > insufficient > > > > and > > > > > improper > > > > > > if we > > > > > > > want to live in a tolerant > liberal > > > society.I > > > > will > > > > > try > > > > > > to > > > > > > > elaborate: > > > > > > > The point is not that Hussein > as a > > > Muslim > > > > can > > > > > paint > > > > > > Hindu > > > > > > > deities,nude orotherwise or > > whether > > > his > > > > > intention was > > > > > > to > > > > > > > insult,or not.The point is > also > > not > > > that the > > > > his > > > > > > paintings > > > > > > > can be artistic and break new > > grounds > > > of > > > > > expression > > > > > > > etc.Neither is it the point > that > > he > > > should > > > > have > > > > > the > > > > > > freedom > > > > > > > of expression to paint > whatever he > > > wants.The > > > > > point is > > > > > > also > > > > > > > not that the people who > attacked > > him > > > were > > > > wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The point that I have been > trying > > to > > > make is > > > > that > > > > > all > > > > > > the > > > > > > > above things are true;but > still a > > > painting > > > > that > > > > > he has > > > > > > made > > > > > > > can be offensive to many > > people.Now,the > > > > classic > > > > > > reductionist > > > > > > > line here is that,offense is > > > > > subjective.Obviously,we > > > > > > > can't be bothered about > every > > > person who > > > > > takes > > > > > > offense > > > > > > > at any random stuff, can > we?To > > that I > > > would > > > > say, > > > > > using > > > > > > our > > > > > > > own personal > judgment,depending > > upon > > > our > > > > > interactions > > > > > > with > > > > > > > people, we can make out most > of > > the > > > times > > > > if > > > > > > something is > > > > > > > truly offensive to a large > group > > of > > > people > > > > or > > > > > not.If > > > > > > we > > > > > > > can't,we should talk to > > > people.IMHO,I > > > > > don't > > > > > > think I > > > > > > > should take the easy way out > of > > hiding > > > > behind the > > > > > > principles > > > > > > > of freedom of expression and > > visual > > > > metaphors > > > > > etc.We > > > > > > should > > > > > > > always support freedom of > > > expression,but if > > > > we > > > > > can > > > > > > surmise > > > > > > > that a particular act of art > was > > > done,when > > > > it was > > > > > > probably > > > > > > > apparent that it would hurt > the > > > > sensibilities of > > > > > a > > > > > > large > > > > > > > group of people,we should > call it > > for > > > > "bad > > > > > > taste". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we have respect for and > engage > > in > > > dialog > > > > with > > > > > the > > > > > > > moderates of groups we may > not > > have to > > > deal > > > > with > > > > > the > > > > > > > extremists. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Shuddha, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think you mentioned earlier > how > > > religious > > > > > people > > > > > > offend > > > > > > > the sensitivities of > > atheists.Could you > > > > please > > > > > > elaborate? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > Rahul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 8/30/08, > Shuddhabrata > > > Sengupta > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Shuddhabrata > Sengupta > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: > [Reader-list] > > Ways of > > > Life > > > > and > > > > > > > Transgressions > > > > > > > > To: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com > > > > > > > > Cc: "Sarai > list" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Saturday, August > 30, > > 2008, > > > 2:44 > > > > AM > > > > > > > > Dear Yousuf, dear all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > thank you very much, > Yousuf > > for > > > your > > > > mail. I > > > > > > really > > > > > > > > appreciate your > > > > > > > > point of drawing > attention to > > the > > > > available > > > > > > > vocabularies of > > > > > > > > visual > > > > > > > > representation and the > way in > > > which > > > > they > > > > > > determine or > > > > > > > > influence the > > > > > > > > universe of visual > > > repsesentatiation, > > > > if > > > > > only to > > > > > > > underline > > > > > > > > the fact > > > > > > > > that no visual artist is > ever > > > divorced > > > > from > > > > > the > > > > > > > context tat > > > > > > > > they are > > > > > > > > born into. I have > nowhere > > written > > > > about why > > > > > > Husain > > > > > > > does > > > > > > > > not choose > > > > > > > > to represent themes from > the > > > Islamic > > > > canon, > > > > > and I > > > > > > > totally > > > > > > > > agree with > > > > > > > > you that he does not do > so > > because > > > they > > > > are > > > > > not > > > > > > > available > > > > > > > > to him in > > > > > > > > his cultural miieu, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for apparently > > transgressive > > > cases > > > > like > > > > > > Husain or > > > > > > > Dillu > > > > > > > > Ram > > > > > > > > Kausari, I cannnot see > why > > they > > > should > > > > not b > > > > > > > celebrated. > > > > > > > > Hindus > > > > > > > > should honour Husain and > > Muslims > > > should > > > > > honour > > > > > > Dillu > > > > > > > Ram. > > > > > > > > In this way > > > > > > > > they would ensure that > acts > > of > > > > 'road > > > > > > crossing' > > > > > > > need > > > > > > > > not necessarily > > > > > > > > end in lethal accidents, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > warm regards, and hoping > for > > many > > > more > > > > road > > > > > > crossings, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 29-Aug-08, at 8:25 > PM, > > Yousuf > > > Saeed > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Shuddha, > others > > > > > > > > > I really appreciate > your > > > > highlighting > > > > > of the > > > > > > fact > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > Hussain's > > > > > > > > > intention may not > be of > > > insulting > > > > the > > > > > Hindus > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > drawing the deities > > > > > > > > > in the nude or > > otherwise. I > > > am not > > > > a > > > > > > defender of > > > > > > > > Hussain, but would > > > > > > > > > like to put across > a few > > > points. > > > > Many > > > > > people > > > > > > (on > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > list and > > > > > > > > > elsewhere) have > pointed > > out > > > that > > > > > Hussain > > > > > > never > > > > > > > drew > > > > > > > > any Muslim > > > > > > > > > character (such as > the > > > Prophet) in > > > > this > > > > > > manner, > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > therefore his > > > > > > > > > intention must be > to > > insult > > > the > > > > Hindus. > > > > > They > > > > > > also > > > > > > > say > > > > > > > > that such an > > > > > > > > > act by any artist > in a > > Muslim > > > > country > > > > > (like > > > > > > Saudi > > > > > > > > Arabia) would > > > > > > > > > result in death > penalty, > > and > > > so > > > > on. But > > > > > > maybe > > > > > > > Hussain > > > > > > > > did not draw > > > > > > > > > an Islamic > character in > > an > > > > > > "immodest" > > > > > > > > posture simply because > such > > > > > > > > > an image or icon > > doesn’t > > > exist > > > > in the > > > > > > > Islam's > > > > > > > > visual cultural > > > > > > > > > tradition. If he > does > > it, > > > then > > > > that > > > > > would be > > > > > > > > deliberately > > > > > > > > > provocative > (although I > > am > > > not > > > > saying > > > > > it > > > > > > > shouldn't > > > > > > > > be done). But he > > > > > > > > > could draw a Hindu > deity > > in > > > the > > > > nude > > > > > because > > > > > > such > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > tradition > > > > > > > > > exists in our > Indian > > visual > > > > culture. I > > > > > doubt > > > > > > if > > > > > > > he > > > > > > > > avoids > > > > > > > > > the depiction of > Muslim > > > themes > > > > because > > > > > he > > > > > > is > > > > > > > scared > > > > > > > > of the > > > > > > > > > Islamists. Maybe he > > simply > > > > can't > > > > > relate > > > > > > to it > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > an Indian. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If I as an artist > cannot > > > express > > > > my > > > > > certain > > > > > > > feelings > > > > > > > > in the > > > > > > > > > language that has > been > > taught > > > to > > > > be me > > > > > by my > > > > > > > parents, > > > > > > > > and I > > > > > > > > > suddenly discover a > new > > > language > > > > that > > > > > allows > > > > > > me > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > express that > > > > > > > > > peculiar feeling in > a > > much > > > better > > > > way > > > > > than > > > > > > what > > > > > > > my > > > > > > > > mother tongue > > > > > > > > > did, I would be > happy to > > use > > > the > > > > new > > > > > > language. > > > > > > > There > > > > > > > > are thousands > > > > > > > > > of poets and > artists who > > > found a > > > > new > > > > > way of > > > > > > > expression > > > > > > > > in a > > > > > > > > > language which > every one > > in > > > their > > > > midst > > > > > had > > > > > > found > > > > > > > > "inferior" – > I am > > > > > > > > > > > talking for example > of > > the > > > > tradition of > > > > > > Persian > > > > > > > poets > > > > > > > > of South Asia > > > > > > > > > who also wrote > verses in > > > Hindi or > > > > > Hinduvi. > > > > > > While > > > > > > > poets > > > > > > > > such as > > > > > > > > > Masud Sa'd > Salman, > > Amir > > > > Khusrau, > > > > > > Abdurrahim > > > > > > > > Khane-khana, Ghalib, or > > > > > > > > > > Iqbal became famous > for > > their > > > > exquisite > > > > > > verse in > > > > > > > > Persian, their > > > > > > > > > heart pours out > better > > in > > > their > > > > > Hinduvi, > > > > > > Urdu or > > > > > > > Braj > > > > > > > > poetry where > > > > > > > > > they can come down > to > > the > > > earth > > > > from > > > > > the > > > > > > lofty > > > > > > > royal > > > > > > > > palaces. We > > > > > > > > > often say, > "Unki > > Hindi > > > > shayeri > > > > > mein > > > > > > mitti ki > > > > > > > > khushbu aati hai" > (one > > > > > > > > > can smell the earth > in > > their > > > > vernacular > > > > > > poetry). > > > > > > > And I > > > > > > > > > think Hussain is > no > > > different > > > > from > > > > > them. He > > > > > > > cannot > > > > > > > > draw an Islamic > > > > > > > > > character in the > nude > > because > > > > it's > > > > > > probably > > > > > > > not in > > > > > > > > his palette, or > > > > > > > > > doesn't touch > his > > heart. > > > (And > > > > we > > > > > cannot > > > > > > force > > > > > > > him > > > > > > > > to do it to > > > > > > > > > become more > politically > > > correct). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You may say that a > lot > > of > > > > > semi-pornographic > > > > > > > scenes > > > > > > > > have been drawn > > > > > > > > > in Mughal or > Persian > > > miniatures, > > > > and he > > > > > > could > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > followed that. > > > > > > > > > But that's not > the > > point. > > > > Hindu > > > > > deities > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > flexible enough for us > > > > > > > > > to turn them around > the > > way > > > we > > > > wish, to > > > > > > express a > > > > > > > > certain feeling > > > > > > > > > that cannot be > expressed > > any > > > other > > > > way. > > > > > So > > > > > > why > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > appreciate and > > > > > > > > > celebrate that > fact. (I > > know > > > such > > > > a > > > > > > statement > > > > > > > from me > > > > > > > > might raise > > > > > > > > > some eyebrows). I > maybe > > a > > > Muslim > > > > but I > > > > > > appreciate > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > fact that you > > > > > > > > > can literally play > with > > many > > > Hindu > > > > > deities. > > > > > > Just > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > other day I > > > > > > > > > heard Pandit Jasraj > sing > > a > > > khayal > > > > in > > > > > which > > > > > > the > > > > > > > lyrics > > > > > > > > repeatedly > > > > > > > > > referred to Krishna > as a > > chor > > > > (thief). > > > > > Does > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > insult a Hindu? Or > > > > > > > > > would it insult a > Hindu > > if > > > this > > > > khayal > > > > > was > > > > > > sung > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > Ustad Amir Khan? > > > > > > > > > (Incidentally, a > large > > number > > > of > > > > > traditional > > > > > > > Hindu > > > > > > > > devotional > > > > > > > > > lyrics sung in > classical > > > music > > > > have > > > > > reached > > > > > > us > > > > > > > via > > > > > > > > Muslim gharana > > > > > > > > > musicians, and much > of > > > devotional > > > > Hindu > > > > > > visual > > > > > > > > mythology has come > > > > > > > > > to us via patwa > artists > > of > > > Bengal > > > > who > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > all Muslim. Can > > M.F.Hussain > > > be > > > > > detached > > > > > > from > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > continuity?) > > > > > > > > > Much of the popular > > calendar > > > and > > > > poster > > > > > art > > > > > > of > > > > > > > 20th > > > > > > > > century showing > > > > > > > > > Hindu deities was > drawn > > by an > > > > artist > > > > > called > > > > > > Hasan > > > > > > > Raza > > > > > > > > Raja of > > > > > > > > > Meerut. And the > manner > > in > > > which > > > > most > > > > > Hindu > > > > > > > deities are > > > > > > > > visualized > > > > > > > > > today comes from > the > > > pioneering > > > > work of > > > > > Raja > > > > > > Ravi > > > > > > > > Varma who was > > > > > > > > > clearly inspired by > > western > > > style > > > > of > > > > > art > > > > > > where > > > > > > > human > > > > > > > > models were > > > > > > > > > used to visualize > the > > gods > > > and > > > > > goddesses. > > > > > > So, > > > > > > > does all > > > > > > > > this insult > > > > > > > > > the Hindus? And > what is > > the > > > > > > "original" > > > > > > > Hindu > > > > > > > > way of imagining the > > > > > > > > > deities any way? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I liked your > quoting > > from > > > Kausari > > > > who > > > > > is > > > > > > among > > > > > > > many > > > > > > > > Hindu poets who > > > > > > > > > have > written/announced > > their > > > > emotive > > > > > > affiliation > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > Prophet > > > > > > > > > Mohammad in the > same way > > as > > > say > > > > with > > > > > > Krishna. I > > > > > > > doubt > > > > > > > > if such > > > > > > > > > actions in the past > may > > have > > > met > > > > with > > > > > much > > > > > > > resistance > > > > > > > > (as you have > > > > > > > > > mentioned) – such > > examples > > > were > > > > a > > > > > norm. > > > > > > There > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > many Hindu poets > > > > > > > > > who have written > > marsiyas > > > full of > > > > > pathos for > > > > > > Imam > > > > > > > > Hussain's > > > > > > > > > martyrdom, and many > > Muslim > > > poets > > > > who > > > > > > composed > > > > > > > adorable > > > > > > > > songs for > > > > > > > > > Krishna. I > don't > > think it > > > was > > > > too > > > > > hard > > > > > > to > > > > > > > cross > > > > > > > > the road in those > > > > > > > > > days. So, why are > we > > busy > > > throwing > > > > > stones > > > > > > onto > > > > > > > each > > > > > > > > other from the > > > > > > > > > two sides of a > road? I > > could > > > > imagine > > > > > that at > > > > > > > least an > > > > > > > > online forum > > > > > > > > > like Sarai could > act > > like a > > > subway > > > > or a > > > > > > walk-over > > > > > > > > bridge to cross > > > > > > > > > the busy highway. > But > > > currently it > > > > > seems > > > > > > more > > > > > > > like a > > > > > > > > road-block. > > > > > > > > > And we are all > paying > > the > > > toll. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yousuf > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, > 8/29/08, > > > Shuddhabrata > > > > > Sengupta > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> From: > Shuddhabrata > > > Sengupta > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Subject: > > [Reader-list] > > > Ways of > > > > Life > > > > > and > > > > > > > > Transgressions > > > > > > > > >> To: "Sarai > > > list" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Date: Friday, > August > > 29, > > > 2008, > > > > 1:31 > > > > > PM > > > > > > > > >> Dear All, > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> I have been > > intrigued by > > > the > > > > > exchange on > > > > > > the > > > > > > > list > > > > > > > > of late > > > > > > > > >> that has > > > > > > > > >> preferred to > > jettison the > > > term > > > > > > > 'religion' > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > >> prefer in its > stead > > the > > > > > > > > >> euphimistic > phrase - > > > 'ways > > > > of > > > > > > life'. > > > > > > > I am > > > > > > > > referring > > > > > > > > >> to the exchange > > > > > > > > >> between > Chanchal > > Malviya > > > and > > > > > Jeebesh > > > > > > Bagchi, > > > > > > > > arising out of > > > > > > > > >> the > > > > > > > > >> heated > > correspondence on > > > the > > > > > disruption > > > > > > of a > > > > > > > small > > > > > > > > >> exhibition > devoted > > > > > > > > >> to M.F.Husain. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> i am quite > convinced > > that > > > the > > > > term > > > > > > > > 'religion' > > > > > > > > >> which derives > from > > the > > > > > > > > >> latin root of > the > > word > > > religio > > > > > (bond) > > > > > > and > > > > > > > religare > > > > > > > > (the > > > > > > > > >> verb form of > > > > > > > > >> 'to > bind') > > > remains for > > > > me a > > > > > > useful > > > > > > > word to > > > > > > > > name the > > > > > > > > >> act of > committing > > > > > > > > >> oneself in any > form. > > In > > > this > > > > sense, > > > > > > atheists > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > agnostics > > > > > > > > >> are just > > > > > > > > >> as religious > (in > > their > > > > commitment > > > > > to > > > > > > doubt) > > > > > > > as are > > > > > > > > those > > > > > > > > >> blessed with > > > > > > > > >> faith. I would > > describe > > > my > > > > > religious > > > > > > > commitment as > > > > > > > > >> agnosticism - a > > > > > > > > >> commitment to > doubt > > > > everything, > > > > > > (including > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > value of > > > > > > > > >> doubt) and a > > > > > > > > >> certainty that > we > > cannot > > > speak > > > > > certainly > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > anything at > > > > > > > > >> all, because > > > > > > > > >> there are > always > > > > counterfactuals, > > > > > and > > > > > > > hitherto > > > > > > > > unimagined, > > > > > > > > >> or unknown > > > > > > > > >> possibilities, > that > > goad > > > us on > > > > to > > > > > yet > > > > > > newer > > > > > > > > possibilities, > > > > > > > > >> or to > > > > > > > > >> return to some > very > > old > > > ones. > > > > This > > > > > is > > > > > > just to > > > > > > > say > > > > > > > > that it > > > > > > > > >> would be a > > > > > > > > >> mistake to > assume, > > as is > > > often > > > > done > > > > > with > > > > > > some > > > > > > > > arrogance on > > > > > > > > >> the part > > > > > > > > >> of the more > > pronouncedly > > > > > > 'faithful', > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > atheists > > > > > > > > >> and agnostics > have > > > > > > > > >> no > > 'spiritual' > > > quests. > > > > They > > > > > do, > > > > > > and > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > dont, just > > > > > > > > >> as those who > are > > > > > > > > >> ostentatiously > > > > 'religious' > > > > > do, > > > > > > and > > > > > > > dont, > > > > > > > > or do only > > > > > > > > >> in as much as > it > > > > > > > > >> allows them to > burn > > a few > > > > churches > > > > > as > > > > > > they go > > > > > > > > questing. If > > > > > > > > >> Hindu > > > > > > > > >> fundamentalists > have > > > chosen to > > > > > renounce > > > > > > the > > > > > > > ties > > > > > > > > that bind > > > > > > > > >> (religio) > > > > > > > > >> them to life, > who > > would I > > > be > > > > to > > > > > object, > > > > > > > because, I > > > > > > > > am not a > > > > > > > > >> Hindu. > > > > > > > > >> But I have no > > quarrel > > > with the > > > > term > > > > > > 'ways > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > life'. > > > > > > > > >> The more words > we > > > > > > > > >> have, the > better. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> This discussion > > arose out > > > of a > > > > rage > > > > > felt > > > > > > by > > > > > > > some > > > > > > > > that a > > > > > > > > >> group of > > > > > > > > >> zealots had > broken > > and > > > > disrupted an > > > > > > > exhibition > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > >> featured some > > > > > > > > >> images of and > by > > Husain, > > > and > > > > the > > > > > counter > > > > > > rage > > > > > > > felt > > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > >> others that the > > > > > > > > >> zealots had no > right > > to > > > be > > > > > criticised > > > > > > because > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > were > > > > > > > > >> acting to > > > > > > > > >> protect the > honour > > of the > > > > Hindu > > > > > deities > > > > > > that > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > felt > > > > > > > > >> Husain had > > > > > > > > >> insulted. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> The second case > is > > as > > > follows > > > > - > > > > > what > > > > > > right > > > > > > > has > > > > > > > > Husain, a > > > > > > > > >> Muslim to > > > > > > > > >> insult Hindu > deities > > by > > > > portraying > > > > > them > > > > > > in a > > > > > > > > manner that is > > > > > > > > >> offensive > > > > > > > > >> to the > sentiments of > > many > > > > Hindus. > > > > > > > (Husain's > > > > > > > > >> motivations, or > the > > > > > > > > >> aesthetic merit > of > > his > > > images > > > > are > > > > > not > > > > > > the > > > > > > > issue > > > > > > > > here, what > > > > > > > > >> is at > > > > > > > > >> issue is the > insult > > seen > > > to > > > > have > > > > > > occurred > > > > > > > when a > > > > > > > > non-Hindu > > > > > > > > >> > 'touches' > > > > > > > > >> a sacred Hindu > icon > > with > > > his > > > > > > > 'insulting' > > > > > > > > >> imagination. > Those > > so > > > > > > > > >> enraged, also > throw > > the > > > > following > > > > > > challenge, > > > > > > > has > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > >> opposite ever > > > > > > > > >> occurred? > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> I am not here > to > > make a > > > case > > > > for > > > > > Husain. > > > > > > (As > > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > have said > > > > > > > > >> before I do > > > > > > > > >> not have a very > high > > > opinion > > > > of his > > > > > work > > > > > > as > > > > > > > an > > > > > > > > artist). I > > > > > > > > >> am here to > > > > > > > > >> make a case for > what > > is > > > > considered > > > > > to be > > > > > > > > transgression. No > > > > > > > > >> one can be > > > > > > > > >> sure when they > have > > > > transgressed. > > > > > > Because > > > > > > > > transgression can > > > > > > > > >> be seen > > > > > > > > >> to occur even > when > > the > > > motives > > > > of > > > > > the > > > > > > person > > > > > > > > concerned are > > > > > > > > >> far from > > > > > > > > >> transgression. > > Husain can > > > say > > > > in > > > > > his > > > > > > defence, > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > indeed > > > > > > > > >> has on > > > > > > > > >> occasion said > that > > his > > > > paintings > > > > > are an > > > > > > index > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > his > > > > > > > > >> appreciation of > > > > > > > > >> Indic culture > and > > its > > > > diversity of > > > > > > > expressions, of > > > > > > > > his > > > > > > > > >> closeness > > > > > > > > >> (since early > > childhood) > > > to > > > > forms of > > > > > > iconic > > > > > > > imagery > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > >> popular > Hinduism. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> Here his intent > is > > > clearly not > > > > to > > > > > > insult, on > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > contrary, > > > > > > > > >> it is to > > > > > > > > >> declare his > > appreciation > > > for > > > > the > > > > > beauty > > > > > > of > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > iconography > > >> > > > > >> of popular > > > > > > > > >> Hinduism, a > charge > > for > > > which > > > > he > > > > > would be > > > > > > > equally > > > > > > > > hated by > > > > > > > > >> both Hindu > > > > > > > > >> as well as > Muslim > > > > fundamentalists. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> It has not been > > noticed > > > that > > > > no > > > > > Muslim > > > > > > > > fundamentalist or > > > > > > > > >> even Muslim > > > > > > > > >> religious > figure has > > come > > > out > > > > in > > > > > defence > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > Husain. They > > > > > > > > >> are in fact > > > > > > > > >> in tacit > agreement > > with > > > their > > > > Hindu > > > > > > peers. A > > > > > > > > Muslim making > > > > > > > > >> images, > > > > > > > > >> and that too of > > Hindu > > > > goddesses, > > > > > because > > > > > > he > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > drawn to > > > > > > > > >> them, can > > > > > > > > >> only be seen as > > blasphemy > > > in > > > > their > > > > > eyes. > > > > > > On > > > > > > > this, > > > > > > > > like on > > > > > > > > >> so many > > > > > > > > >> other issues, > Hindu > > and > > > Muslim > > > > > > > fundamentalists are > > > > > > > > in total > > > > > > > > >> agreement. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> Let me come now > to > > an > > > > interesting > > > > > > > counterfactual > > > > > > > > argument. > > > > > > > > >> I refer to > > > > > > > > >> the life an > work of > > a > > > little > > > > known > > > > > late > > > > > > > nineteenth > > > > > > > > century > > > > > > > > >> and early > > > > > > > > >> twentieth > century > > Urdu > > > poet of > > > > > Delhi > > > > > > called > > > > > > > Dillu > > > > > > > > Ram > > > > > > > > >> Kausari. Now as > > > > > > > > >> his name > suggests, > > Dillu > > > Ram > > > > was a > > > > > > Hindu. The > > > > > > > > trouble is, > > > > > > > > >> throughout > > > > > > > > >> his life he > composed > > > > deliriously > > > > > > passionate > > > > > > > > elegies > > > > > > > > >> (na'at) to > the > > > > > > > > >> Prophet > Muhammad. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> One of his > quatrains > > went > > > as > > > > > follows > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> Kuch ‘ishq e > > Muhammad > > > mein > > > > nahin > > > > > shart > > > > > > e > > > > > > > > Musulman! > > > > > > > > >> Hai Kausari > Hindu > > bhii > > > > talabgaar e > > > > > > Muhammad! > > > > > > > > >> Allah re! kyaa > > raunaq e > > > bazaar > > > > e > > > > > > Muhammad > > > > > > > > >> Ke Ma’bood e > Jahan > > bhi > > > hai > > > > > kharidaar e > > > > > > > Muhammad! > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> Being a Muslim > is > > not a > > > > condition > > > > > for > > > > > > loving > > > > > > > > Muhammad! > > > > > > > > >> Kausari, the > Hindu, > > is > > > also a > > > > > seeker of > > > > > > > Muhammad! > > > > > > > > >> By Allah! How > > delightful > > > is > > > > the > > > > > bazaar > > > > > > of > > > > > > > Muhammad > > > > > > > > >> For the Lord of > the > > > Worlds is > > > > also > > > > > a > > > > > > buyer of > > > > > > > > Muhammad! > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> This kind of > > sentiment > > > shocked > > > > both > > > > > > Hindus > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > Muslims. > > > > > > > > >> Hindus, > > > > > > > > >> because how > could a > > Hindu > > > sing > > > > what > > > > > > amounted > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > love songs > > > > > > > > >> to a > > > > > > > > >> Muslim prophet, > and > > > Muslims, > > > > for > > > > > the > > > > > > same > > > > > > > reason. > > > > > > > > Both felt > > > > > > > > >> slighted > > > > > > > > >> and insulted by > the > > > > transgressive > > > > > way in > > > > > > > which the > > > > > > > > >> imagination of > the > > > > > > > > >> poet had > > > 'touched' the > > > > body > > > > > of > > > > > > what > > > > > > > was > > > > > > > > sacred for > > > > > > > > >> one, and not, > for > > > > > > > > >> the other. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> Another poem, > which > > > proved to > > > > be > > > > > even > > > > > > more > > > > > > > > controversial, > > > > > > > > >> went like > > > > > > > > >> this - > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > Rahmatulilalamin kay > > > Hashar > > > > mein > > > > > > maana’ > > > > > > > khulay > > > > > > > > >> Khalq saari > Shaafa e > > Roz > > > e > > > > Jaza kay > > > > > > saath hai > > > > > > > > >> Laykay Dillu > Raam ko > > > jannat > > > > mein > > > > > jab > > > > > > Hazrat > > > > > > > gaye > > > > > > > > >> Ma’loom huwa > kay > > Hindu > > > bhi > > > > > Mahboob e > > > > > > Khuda > > > > > > > kay > > > > > > > > saath hai! > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> The meaning of > > “Mercy > > > unto > > > > the > > > > > > Worlds” > > > > > > > became > > > > > > > > apparent > > > > > > > > >> on Judgement > Day: > > > > > > > > >> The whole > creation > > is > > > with the > > > > > > Intercessor of > > > > > > > The > > > > > > > > Day of > > > > > > > > >> Acquittal > > > > > > > > >> When the > Prophet > > took > > > Dillu > > > > Ram > > > > > with him > > > > > > into > > > > > > > > Paradise > > > > > > > > >> It was known > that > > this > > > Hindu > > > > too is > > > > > with > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > Beloved of > > > > > > > > >> God! > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> This poem, > > especially > > > > scandalized > > > > > Muslim > > > > > > > > orthodoxy, because > > > > > > > > >> it dared > > > > > > > > >> to suggest that > the > > > prophet > > > > himself > > > > > > would > > > > > > > > intercede on > > > > > > > > >> behalf of an > > > > > > > > >> unbeliever on > the > > day of > > > > judgement. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> It is > interesting to > > note > > > that > > > > > Dillu Ram > > > > > > > never > > > > > > > > became a > > > > > > > > >> Muslim, at > > > > > > > > >> least not in > his > > > lifetime. An > > > > > article in > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > interesting > > > > > > > > >> web portal > > > > > > > > >> Chowk > > > > > > > http://www.chowk.com/articles/12692 by > > > > > > > one > > > > > > > > Asif > > > > > > > > >> Naqshbandi says > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> "It is > also > > said > > > that > > > > Dillu > > > > > Ram, > > > > > > > delirious > > > > > > > > with his > > > > > > > > >> love, would > > > > > > > > >> sometimes stand > in > > the > > > middle > > > > of > > > > > the > > > > > > bazaar > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > Delhi, put > > > > > > > > >> chains > > > > > > > > >> around his neck > and > > feet > > > and > > > > shout > > > > > at > > > > > > the top > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > his voice > > > > > > > > >> to all > > > > > > > > >> passers-by, > > “Muhammad! > > > > Muhammad! > > > > > > Muhammad! > > > > > > > Yes! > > > > > > > > Muhammad > > > > > > > > >> is the > > > > > > > > >> Beloved of God! > > Muhammad > > > is > > > > the > > > > > first > > > > > > and > > > > > > > only > > > > > > > > Beloved of > > > > > > > > >> God! If God > > > > > > > > >> loves you, He > loves > > you > > > > because of > > > > > His > > > > > > > Beloved!” > > > > > > > > Some > > > > > > > > >> people even > > > > > > > > >> stoned him and > he > > would > > > often > > > > come > > > > > home > > > > > > > covered in > > > > > > > > blood > > > > > > > > >> but he was > > > > > > > > >> totally lost in > his > > love > > > of > > > > the > > > > > Prophet > > > > > > > (peace and > > > > > > > > >> blessings be > upon > > > > > > > > >> him!)" > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> There is an > > apocryphal > > > story > > > > of how > > > > > on > > > > > > his > > > > > > > > deathbed Dillu > > > > > > > > >> Ram Kausari > > > > > > > > >> had a vision of > the > > > Prophet > > > > > himself, who > > > > > > came > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > him, and > > > > > > > > >> that he > > > > > > > > >> read the Kalima > with > > him. > > > But > > > > as > > > > > this > > > > > > vision > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > reported to > > > > > > > > >> have > > > > > > > > >> appeared only > to > > him, as > > >he > > > > lay > > > > > dying, > > > > > > and as > > > > > > > he > > > > > > > > is no > > > > > > > > >> longer with us > > > > > > > > >> to either > confirm or > > deny > > > this > > > > > deathbed > > > > > > > > conversion, we can > > > > > > > > >> only > > > > > > > > >> surmise that it > was > > a > > > > generous, but > > > > > > somewhat > > > > > > > > disingenuous > > > > > > > > >> method of > > > > > > > > >> having Dillu > > Ram's > > > > somewhat > > > > > > unorthodox > > > > > > > Muslim > > > > > > > > >> apologists > claim him > > > > > > > > >> for themselves. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> As far as we > are > > > concerned, > > > > Dillu > > > > > Ram > > > > > > > Kausari, > > > > > > > > caused grave > > > > > > > > >> offence, > > > > > > > > >> by his love for > the > > > Prophet, > > > > both > > > > > to > > > > > > Hindu as > > > > > > > well > > > > > > > > as to > > > > > > > > >> Muslim > > > > > > > > >> zealots, as > long as > > he > > > lived. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> If, the things > we > > call > > > > religions > > > > > are > > > > > > > 'ways of > > > > > > > > life' > > > > > > > > >> then we can > > > > > > > > >> always > determine for > > > ourselves > > > > > whether > > > > > > we > > > > > > > want to > > > > > > > > walk on a > > > > > > > > >> one way > > > > > > > > >> street that > runs > > into a > > > dead > > > > end, > > > > > or to > > > > > > cross > > > > > > > many > > > > > > > > paths, > > > > > > > > >> walking > > > > > > > > >> down one way, > for > > one > > > purpose, > > > > down > > > > > > another > > > > > > > way > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > >> another, and > > > > > > > > >> sometimes just > > standing > > > in > > > > between > > > > > > paths, > > > > > > > figuring > > > > > > > > out our > > > > > > > > >> journey, > > > > > > > > >> as we go about > our > > lives. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> I find cases > like > > Husain > > > and > > > > Dillu > > > > > Ram > > > > > > > Kausari > > > > > > > > interesting > > > > > > > > >> not > > > > > > > > >> because of what > they > > > paint of > > > > what > > > > > they > > > > > > say, > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > because > > > > > > > > >> they seem to > > > > > > > > >> cause such > prolonged > > > traffic > > > > jams > > > > > on the > > > > > > > 'ways > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > >> life'. And > all > > they > > > > > > > > >> were doing was > > crossing > > > the > > > > road. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> thanks and > regards, > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> Shuddha > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> ----- > > > > > > > > >> Shuddhabrata > > Sengupta > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > >> reader-list: an > open > > > > discussion > > > > > list on > > > > > > media > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > the city. > > > > > > > > >> Critiques & > > > Collaborations > > > > > > > > >> To subscribe: > send > > an > > > email to > > > > > > > > >> > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > with > > > > > > subscribe > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > the subject > > > > > > > > >> header. > > > > > > > > >> To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > >> List archive: > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > reader-list: an > open > > > discussion > > > > list on > > > > > > media and > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > city. > > > > > > > > > Critiques & > > > Collaborations > > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send > an > > email > > > to > > > > > > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with > > > > > > > > > > > > subscribe in the > subject > > > header. > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > > > > > > > The Sarai Programme at > CSDS > > > > > > > > Raqs Media Collective > > > > > > > > shuddha at sarai.net > > > > > > > > www.sarai.net > > > > > > > > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > reader-list: an open > > discussion > > > list on > > > > > media and > > > > > > the > > > > > > > city. > > > > > > > > Critiques & > > Collaborations > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an > email > > to > > > > > > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with > > > > subscribe > > > > > in > > > > > > the > > > > > > > subject > > > > > > > > header. > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From anivar at movingrepublic.org Tue Sep 2 11:15:28 2008 From: anivar at movingrepublic.org (Anivar Aravind) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 11:15:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Chengara: Update from Samkutty Pattomkary In-Reply-To: <35f96d470809012244l42a74006q235c70f8309d5b2@mail.gmail.com> References: <35f96d470809012244l42a74006q235c70f8309d5b2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <35f96d470809012245y656ffabbvaebd3355038ecf40@mail.gmail.com> COMMUNIST RULERS THINK THAT DALITS AND ADIVASIS DON'T DESERVE ANY HUMEN RIGHTS CITU, INTUC, AITUC, BMS, UTUC, KTUC all have conjoined to 'evict' 30,000 people fighting in the Chengara estate on 3rd September 2008. For that purpose, the slogan raised by this united front of trade unions is this "crowd of thieves, leave Chengara" Which is this 'crowd of thieves'? ------------------------------------------ When the Congress union of INTUC says this, one can ignore it as sheer ignorance. If the BJP/RSS-led BMS is saying this, one knows for sure that it is their brahmanical ideology behind this. Not only that, but for any caste-religious reasons, the dalits and adivasis have not so far stood by such a party or its ideology. But when through the mouths of the left organizations of CPIM, CPI and RSP, the dalits are clubbed as the 'crowd of thieves'....!!! Remember, dalits are those who gifted martyrs to the Communist Party in Kerala...it is in the blood of dalits and adivasis that the left parties have been built up in Kerala. Those who had been oppressors then, use the Party positions to attack the dalits and adivasis today. On one side, the struggle for social justice led by dalits and adivasis and on the other side, the violent repression led by the political combination of CPI M, CPI, RSP and BJP...What does this poliical combination represent? Isn't this politics of committing violence on dalits and adivasis to protect the interests of the monopoly companies, the Left's own final political suicide? The Chengara struggle demanded that the 70 odd workers employed by the Harrissons should also be assured of land and livelihood. But these combinations have turned them as a shield to attack the dalits and adivasis in their frantic moves to serve the interests of the company. Harrissons have already sold out major portion of the leased land of about 7000 acres against rules and none of these parties have come forward to protect the interests of workers who lost work then. The govt. had acquired land earlier and re-distributed to industrial big shots and for other uses in Kerala. In the Aralam farm, about 350 workers were thrown out in the process. A concern for the workers that the left didn't show in such instances, why invoke now in the Chengara? In 2000, the crowd of communists such as comrade Achuthanandan, comrade Kodiyeri, comrade Thomas Isaac, comrade M A Baby, Comrade AK Balan etc. have all sworn in power; today, while AK Balan and speaker Radhakrishnan have become their official SCs,the rest continue 'as comrades'...Anyway, can anyone of you explain who are these 'crowd of thieves'? When the CITU calls the dalits and adivasis who fight for land and livelihood, the 'crowd of thieves', the communist consciousness of attributing the dalits and adivasis the second class citizenship is reinforced. Friends, The blockade and violence in Chengara continues. These trade unions have blockaded all possibilities of providing food and medicines to Chengara. 30,000 people are stranded there, surrounded by blockade and violence. Yet, no human rights commission steps in... When women are brutally raped, no women's commission intervenes... Are they not human beings? Yesterday, people who tried to reach Chengara were brutally attacked. 21 of them are admitted to the Pattanamthitta district hospital. 12 of them are women including a pregnant woman. The child who was in her arms was thrown away!! The child is also in the hospital now. The Pathanamthitta police is doing nothing to prevent these. Where has the prevention of atrocities Act gone? When all human rights are continually violated in Chengara, We still continue to say... India is my country!! All Indians are my brothers and sisters...!!! Samkutty Pattomkary antstrainpress at gmail.com, antstrainpress at yahoo.in From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Tue Sep 2 11:15:48 2008 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 11:15:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Chengara: Update from Samkutty Pattomkary In-Reply-To: <35f96d470809012245y656ffabbvaebd3355038ecf40@mail.gmail.com> References: <35f96d470809012244l42a74006q235c70f8309d5b2@mail.gmail.com> <35f96d470809012245y656ffabbvaebd3355038ecf40@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <35f96d470809012245j6a704dacg8aa3a9279b7e357d@mail.gmail.com> COMMUNIST RULERS THINK THAT DALITS AND ADIVASIS DON'T DESERVE ANY HUMEN RIGHTS CITU, INTUC, AITUC, BMS, UTUC, KTUC all have conjoined to 'evict' 30,000 people fighting in the Chengara estate on 3rd September 2008. For that purpose, the slogan raised by this united front of trade unions is this "crowd of thieves, leave Chengara" Which is this 'crowd of thieves'? ------------------------------------------ When the Congress union of INTUC says this, one can ignore it as sheer ignorance. If the BJP/RSS-led BMS is saying this, one knows for sure that it is their brahmanical ideology behind this. Not only that, but for any caste-religious reasons, the dalits and adivasis have not so far stood by such a party or its ideology. But when through the mouths of the left organizations of CPIM, CPI and RSP, the dalits are clubbed as the 'crowd of thieves'....!!! Remember, dalits are those who gifted martyrs to the Communist Party in Kerala...it is in the blood of dalits and adivasis that the left parties have been built up in Kerala. Those who had been oppressors then, use the Party positions to attack the dalits and adivasis today. On one side, the struggle for social justice led by dalits and adivasis and on the other side, the violent repression led by the political combination of CPI M, CPI, RSP and BJP...What does this poliical combination represent? Isn't this politics of committing violence on dalits and adivasis to protect the interests of the monopoly companies, the Left's own final political suicide? The Chengara struggle demanded that the 70 odd workers employed by the Harrissons should also be assured of land and livelihood. But these combinations have turned them as a shield to attack the dalits and adivasis in their frantic moves to serve the interests of the company. Harrissons have already sold out major portion of the leased land of about 7000 acres against rules and none of these parties have come forward to protect the interests of workers who lost work then. The govt. had acquired land earlier and re-distributed to industrial big shots and for other uses in Kerala. In the Aralam farm, about 350 workers were thrown out in the process. A concern for the workers that the left didn't show in such instances, why invoke now in the Chengara? In 2000, the crowd of communists such as comrade Achuthanandan, comrade Kodiyeri, comrade Thomas Isaac, comrade M A Baby, Comrade AK Balan etc. have all sworn in power; today, while AK Balan and speaker Radhakrishnan have become their official SCs,the rest continue 'as comrades'...Anyway, can anyone of you explain who are these 'crowd of thieves'? When the CITU calls the dalits and adivasis who fight for land and livelihood, the 'crowd of thieves', the communist consciousness of attributing the dalits and adivasis the second class citizenship is reinforced. Friends, The blockade and violence in Chengara continues. These trade unions have blockaded all possibilities of providing food and medicines to Chengara. 30,000 people are stranded there, surrounded by blockade and violence. Yet, no human rights commission steps in... When women are brutally raped, no women's commission intervenes... Are they not human beings? Yesterday, people who tried to reach Chengara were brutally attacked. 21 of them are admitted to the Pattanamthitta district hospital. 12 of them are women including a pregnant woman. The child who was in her arms was thrown away!! The child is also in the hospital now. The Pathanamthitta police is doing nothing to prevent these. Where has the prevention of atrocities Act gone? When all human rights are continually violated in Chengara, We still continue to say... India is my country!! All Indians are my brothers and sisters...!!! Samkutty Pattomkary antstrainpress at gmail.com, antstrainpress at yahoo.in From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Tue Sep 2 11:16:20 2008 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 11:16:20 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Chengara inching towards open conflict as talks fail In-Reply-To: <35f96d470809012245r251e1257qbe1fb8a138d84d13@mail.gmail.com> References: <26ffce2a0809012134u1822485cuefa19da3b1f53238@mail.gmail.com> <35f96d470809012245r251e1257qbe1fb8a138d84d13@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <35f96d470809012246v7a7ebf5sae77a0f35b7facc8@mail.gmail.com> Chengara inching towards open conflict as talks fail Pioneer News Service | Pathanamthitta Horror filled the more than 3,000 makeshift sheds of over 7,000 Dalits and Adivasis agitating in the rubber estates among the Chengara hills in Pathanamthitta district on Monday with the meeting of District Collector PC Sanil Kumar with trade unions blocking the roads to the agitation camp. The meeting was held as a last attempt to make the workers withdraw from their move to march into the estate on September 3 to forcefully evict the agitators from there. With this, a conflict which could gather any imaginable dimensions became a possibility in the rubber estates, where the agitators have been camping since August 4, 2007 demanding land and livelihood. The District Collector has stated that the workers' would not be allowed to take out the march. The workers, who had been blocking the entry points to the estate since August 3 in a determined bid to smoke the agitators out, are now preparing to flush the Dalits and Adivasis out of the camp with the collective physical force of all the workers registered in the trade unions in the entire Pathanamthitta district. With the agitators preferring death to free passage out of the camp if they do not get land and livelihood, an intense conflict on Wednesday has now become a discomforting possibility. In the context, the district administration is considering various options including clamping prohibitory orders in the area. Stating that the workers would march into the agitation camp on Wednesday as decided earlier, the estate workers, demanding their jobs back in the estate, the trade union representatives told the district administration that the meeting was held 'very late'. Trade union leaders held that there was no meaning in holding discussions with the workers after the authorities adopted a position favourable to the agitators. The estate workers, who claimed that they had lost their jobs in the estate held by Harrison Malayalam Plantations Ltd after the agitators encroached upon it, had been blocking the entry point of the camp since August 3, the first anniversary of the agitation in Chengara. The blockade had become so intense that even the local people turned against the workers due to their unethical methods of checking the passersby. With the blockade continuing, the situation in the camp had deteriorated as the agitators were unable to get food or water or even medicines to treat the sick. Following this, reports came out of the camp that starvation and contagious diseases were spreading through the camp. In this situation, the workers ten days back lifted their blockade 'temporarily' to let the agitators leave the camp before September 3. But even then the workers refused to allow even health workers to reach medical help to the estate. There are reports that the condition of the agitators has deteriorated further with the incidence of diseases going up and starvation becoming more intense in the context of the supply lines being cut off by the workers. The estate workers had even blocked Muslim League workers who had tried to give food and water to the agitators. Rights workers are holding the CPI(M)-led LDF Government responsible for the situation in Chengara. They say that the Government had taken a stand that supported the workers with the clear intention of getting the agitators out of the camp somehow. The CPI(M) Ministers, including Chief Minister VS Achuthanandan had, from the very beginning, adopted a position that the Dalits' stir was actually against the Government. This, and the readiness showed by CPI(M) trade union CITU to lead the workers' blockade, had given confidence to the workers to act against the agitators. However, the Government was forced to talk to Sadhu Jana Vimochana Samyuktha Vedi, which had been spearheading the Dalits' agitation, after the workers served the September 3 ultimatum on the agitators. Scheduled Caste Welfare Minister AK Balan and Revenue Minister KP Rajendran had talked to Vedi president Lhaha Gopalan and other leaders in Thiruvananthapuram. The discussions held by District Collector Sanil Kumar with the trade unions on Monday were part of the efforts to avoid a physical confrontation between the workers and the agitators. The workers are claiming that they have been working in the estates held by Harrison Malayalam and the agitation had caused the loss of their jobs, which had led to their penury. But the Vedi says that this is nothing but a lie. They say that the workers even otherwise did not have any job in the estate as the Government had already asked the plantation company to stop operations at the estate as the period of land lease had already expired. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Ours is a battle not for wealth or for power. It is a battle for freedom. It is a battle for the reclamation of human personality." - Dr BR Ambedkar ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From gora at sarai.net Tue Sep 2 12:00:16 2008 From: gora at sarai.net (Gora Mohanty) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 12:00:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [X-Post][Commercial] FLOSS position available at Sarai Message-ID: <20080902120016.6f5cee28@mail.sarai.net> Hello everyone, Please note that this message is widely cross-posted, and be careful of follow-ups. The FLOSS programme at Sarai, CSDS is looking for a senior person to work with us, as per the description in the advertisement below. While we would prefer someone well-versed in Indian-language computing, we would also be happy to consider strong candidates with other backgrounds. Also, while we need a senior person in light of the job duties, it might also be possible to offer a junior-level position for a talented candidate. So, please do not hesitate to send in a resume. The last date for receiving submissions is midnight Sun., 28th Sep., 2008. For any questions, please contact me off-list, or send email to floss at sarai.net . You can also call me at +919868527992. Please also feel free to circulate this announcement, and the link at Regards, Gora -------------------------------------------------------- Senior FLOSS position available at Sarai, CSDS -------------------------------------------------------- The Sarai programme of the Centre for Studies of Developing Societies (CSDS), is pleased to announce the availability of a position for a senior person for one year, with renewal subject to performance, and to the availability of funding. The FLOSS programme at Sarai is involved primarily in Indian language computing, and one of the focal points of the work this year will be (a) putting together customised versions of popular Linux distributions like Debian, Fedora, and Ubuntu that are specialised to Indian language computing, and (b) organising documentation to cover the installation, and usage of applications on these distributions in Indian languages. The goal is to have Indian language computing on free operating systems become at least as easy as it is with English. Besides, we also work on various open-source technologies including mobile computing (especially, the use of Indian languages on mobiles), GPS, GIS, electronics, embedded devices, and robotics. The successful candidate is also strongly encouraged to have open-source interests of their own, and they can be allocated time to work on these. A brief description of the responsibilities of the position include: o Coordinating with major Linux distributions for ensuring up-to-date Indian language packages for fonts, input methods, etc. o Coordination with major applications like OpenOffice, Mozilla, and Scribus for incorporation of Indian language packs, and the building of releases. o Facilitating development work in Indian language computing by working with various external developers such as Scribus, aspell, desktop publishing, and semantic analysis folk, etc. o Driving documentation by making an outline of the documents needed for installing and using Indian languages on FLOSS operating systems and applications. o Keeping abreast of new technology, and facilitating the development of cutting-edge technologies for Indian languages, such as speech-to-text, optical character recognition, etc. o FLOSS Evangelism, and support for people seeking to deploy FLOSS Indian language solutions. Besides this, the person will also be expected to take up part of the managerial tasks associated with the current FLOSSINCLUDE projects, and other ongoing FLOSS projects at Sarai. Some infrastructural, and travel funds will also be made available. It is possible for the selected candidate to work largely from outside the physical environs of Sarai, though someone from the Delhi NCR region would be strongly preferred. If interested, please email a (max.) one-page statement of interests, in light of the above expectations of the position, and a current resume to floss at sarai.net . Potential candidates are also encouraged to visit Sarai beforehand, and can set up a time by sending email to the above address. All submissions for the position should reach us by midnight IST, on Sun., the 28th of September. Please direct any further queries to floss at sarai.net . -------------------------------------------------------- From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Tue Sep 2 12:57:25 2008 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 12:57:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] India's First Freedom Toaster Released Message-ID: <35f96d470809020027n4fdbae5bqb7f9069f16522f3e@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Anoop John Date: Mon, Sep 1, 2008 at 10:45 PM Dear All, GNU/Linux users group, Trivandrum (www.ilug-tvm.org) and Zyxware Technologies are conducting a 5 day install fest at Technopark,Trivandrum, primarily targeting the IT professionals working at Technopark.This 5 day mega install fest is being conducted at Park Center, Technopark, Trivandrum from September 1-5. With this event we at GNU/Linux users group, Trivandrum, hope to carry the message of Free Software aggressively to one of the largest IT parks in the country. We have also released India's first Freedom Toaster during the inauguration of this Install fest. This Freedomtoaster was designed and developed by Zyxware Technologies and is being jointly promoted with GNU/Linux Users Group Trivandrum. You can read more about it and check out available resources and photos at www.freedomtoaster.in. The whole concept was based on the original Freedomtoaster developed by the Shuttleworth Foundation. A Freedom Toaster is basically a self contained kiosk that will burn any one of the free software distributions onto user supplied optical media. The freedom toaster serves as an easy way to distribute free software(mainly GNU/Linux distributions). Such a dispensing mechanism is highly relevant in a country like India where unlimited broadband internet is not exactly cheap, whereas the chief source of free software remains the internet. The freedom toaster intends to bridge that gap and thus make free and open source software easily accessible to the public, minimal human intervention being an added advantage. Along with the install fest we are also conducting a technical seminar series on various Free Software topics. Also visitors will have the opportunity to try out different GNU/Linux distributions and also many software including popular Free Software games. There will also be opportunities for visitors to get their questions regarding free software applications answered by experts. Kerala State IT Mission, SPACE Kerala and FSF India are the other partner organizations who are behind this and BSNL is sponsoring the event. Together, we have been successful in organizing similar events in the city this year. We hope that, the event and our freedom toaster initiative will get support from all like minded people all over the country and hopefully this will become an inspiration for other people to take the initiative and further strengthen the free software movement in our country. You can read more about the install fest at www.ilug-tvm.org. We also welcome you to join our mailing list - ilug-tvm at googlegroups.com - and help us out with the increasing support requests Cheers Anoop - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.anoopjohn.com http://www.thondomraughts.com - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Be the change you wish to see in the world", M. K. Gandhi - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From bangalorefilmsociety at gmail.com Tue Sep 2 13:42:32 2008 From: bangalorefilmsociety at gmail.com (Bangalore Film Society ,) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 13:42:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Voices from the Waters 2008: 3rd International Film Festival on Water Message-ID: *Voices from the Waters * *3rd International Film Festival/Conferences/Exhibitions/River songs/Aquascope/Publications/ Water Dialogues/Kiosks* *13th – 18th September, 2008* ** *Jnana Jyothi Auditorium, Central College Campus, Palace Road, Near Mysore Bank Circle, Bangalore- 560001* ** Voices from the Waters is a water film festival in Bangalore, India currently in its third edition. The first edition of the festival was held in 2005 followed by the second in 2007. The aim of the festival is not only to spread awareness of water issues among the people but also to celebrate the bountiful natural resource. It is one of the most comprehensive platforms for dialogues and ideas focusing on the pressing issues surrounding our most precious resource - water and has given common platform to students, film makers, artists, water activists, architects, engineers, scholars, visionaries and all concerned to learn, interact and debate on water across all its forms: economic, social, ecological, political, cultural, technological and the aesthetic. Since its inception as a small Bangalore-based film festival in 2005, 'Voices from the Waters' has become the biggest International Film Festival on Water screened in various cities and institutions across the nation and even abroad. The festival will unfold across six days from the13th to the 18th of September, 2008 and will be held at the Jnana Jyoti, Bangalore University City auditorium. Along with the screening of the films, conferences focusing on certain central water issues will be conducted along with various cultural programs, painting and photo exhibitions and 'Water Voices' in which grass-root level water activists will narrate their personal experiences from a life spent in campaigning fearlessly for water, for nature, for society, for us all and the rest that are yet to follow. Voices from the Waters 2008 is a result of the collaboration of a consortium of National and International organizations active in water issues that includes Bangalore Film Society, Arghyam, SVARAJ- Society for Voluntary Action Revitalization and Justice, Bangalore University, Finger Lakes Environmental Film Festival, Ithaca College, USA (FLEFF) Mountainfilm Festival in Telluride, USA, Alliance Francaise de Bangalore, Max Muller Bhavan, Bangalore and Water Journeys - Campaign for Fundamental Right to Water. Programme Schedule: Inauguration: Saturday 13th September 2008 at 5pm by Shekhar Kapur. He will be accompanied by the film fraternity and people from various walks of life who have creatively contributed to the welfare of the society. *Film screenings: There will be two screens* 1. The Main screen will organize shows for high school children from 9 to 1pm. Many schools will participate in the festival spread over five days. 2. Screenings for College students and Public from 1.30 pm to 8.30 pm. 3. 6 pm to 8 .30 pm Open screenings for the public. 100 seats will be reserved right through the day to enable the participation of the public. 4. *Aquascop**e* will screen films from 9 am to 8pm. The films screened will be shorter and artistic take on water in myriad forms. Approximately 100 people can be seated in the auditorium. 5. Interaction with documentary film directors. *Conference/Workshops* 1. Bangalore University's civil engineering and water department will organize a two days conference mainly for university teachers on 15th and 16 th September 2008. 2. Conference on gender, caste and water governance by Institute of Social Sciences on 17th September 2008 organized by Institute of Social Sciences 3. Simultaneous workshops on the following topics will be held by organizations involved in water issues. However, the lead organization should make sure that at least 20 people participate in the programme they organize. 1. Water and Sanitation: The Utopia of an odorless City 2. Rivers and Streams: The Future of the Waters 3. Water access and Equity: Gender, caste, floods, draught, water diversion etc. 4. Water Voices: Grass root level water activists from different parts of India will be sharing their experiences in a separate gathering twice daily. *River songs:* Throughout the day river songs from different languages will be played in the lobby. *Exhibitions*: 1. Painting exhibition on the theme of Water and Life will be on display through out the length of the festival. 2. Photo exhibition: There will be a photo exhibition on the theme of Rivers and Streams. 3. Also there will be an art installation by Syamala Nandesh who has been working with water motifs. *Kiosks: * Spaces will be provided to institutions to exhibit their publications, posters arts and crafts to add to the celebrative atmosphere. *Voices from the Waters are the Voices of people who are deeply committed to water issues. The festival takes you to the waters: to see and listen to her manifold stories…* Contact: Georgekutty A.L Festival Coordinator 33/1-9, Thyagaraja Layout, Jaibharath Nagar M.S. Nagar P.O Bangalore 560 033, Karnataka India Tel: +91-80-25493705/ +91-80-9448064513 e-mail:bangalorefilmsociety at gmail.com/ http://www.voicesfromthewaters.com From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Tue Sep 2 18:26:28 2008 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 18:26:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Urgent Appeal: Call/Fax/email to Kerala ministers to stop assault on the peaceful protesters In-Reply-To: <35f96d470809020555j5d03ca04w1b03fc550ac53e3c@mail.gmail.com> References: <35f96d470809020555j5d03ca04w1b03fc550ac53e3c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <35f96d470809020556p6eeff39en8c73b42c59f76793@mail.gmail.com> Dear friends Call/fax ministers, District Collector and The Supdt of Police of Pathanamthitta and raise the concerns Pathanamthitta Collector Phone : 0468- 2222515, 2222507 Fax: 0468-2222505 mobile no: 09447029008 Pathanamthitta SP phone: 0468- 2222636 Fax: 0468-2222927 Chief Minister Fax: 0471-2333489 home Minister Fax: 0471--2327016 Please flood the ministers inbox with this appeal drafted below. Its high time we do it. chiefminister at kerala.gov.in minister-education at kerala.gov.in minister-home at kerala.gov.in minister-scst at kerala.gov.in minister-forest at kerala.gov.in minister-food at kerala.gov.in minister-transport at kerala.gov.in minister-revenue at kerala.gov.in minister-health at kerala.gov.in minister-finance at kerala.gov.in minister-law at kerala.gov.in Dear Sir/ Madam The lives and livelihoods of over 20,000 Dalits, Adivasis and others, peacefully protesting for land at the Harrison Malayam Private Ltd plantation in Chengara, Pathanthimthatta are in danger. A group of trade unions claiming to represent the plantation's retrenched rubber workers have announced plans to march and reclaim the land from the peaceful protesters on Wednesday, September 3rd. The trade unions, including CITU, INTUC, AITUC, UTUC, HMS and others, in collusion with company goons, have already succeeded in manufacturing a human rights crisis in the area. Together, they have been blocking food, medicines and other essential materials from entering the plantation for the past one month, terrorizing the peaceful protesters and their children. Women have been the targets of brutal attacks by the workers of the trade unions and other hired henchmen of Harrison Malayalam Ltd. Many women have testified that the attacks happened in the presence of the police, who remained mute spectators and whose inaction encouraged the perpetuators further. The police have also colluded in preventing civil society groups from entering the site. The proposed March could potentially deteriorate the law and order situation in the already fragile areas of Chengara further. In the light of past actions, which were used as a cover up to inflict physical harm and to denigrate the dignity of the protesting Dalits and Adivasis, we urge you to take immediate actions to thwart attempts of a March on September 3rd. We strongly feel that government can no longer sit idly and allow the rights and lives of marginalized peoples' to be violated in this manner. Under no circumstances should union activists and company goons be allowed to march on the plantation this Wednesday. We demand: 1. Immediately intervene to stop the September 3rd planned assault on the peaceful protesters by trade unions and company goons. 2. Take immediate action against those responsible for the blockade, ensuring the immediate lifting of the blockade, and restore normalcy to people's lives. 3. Immediately initiate criminal proceedings against the perpetrators of the sexual assault of the four women at the struggle site on August 7th 2008. 4. Enter into a dialogue with the protestors and take measures to distribute land to the landless. From mail at shivamvij.com Tue Sep 2 19:17:44 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 19:17:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Have you seen this face of the world's largest democracy? Message-ID: <9c06aab30809020647n3d7737f6w2dddd3791f25b54@mail.gmail.com> Rage in Kashmir meets India's brute force http://in.reuters.com/article/topNews/idINIndia-35279820080902 By Alistair Scrutton SRINAGAR, India (Reuters) - The world's largest democracy locks up protest leaders without charge, shoots dozens of demonstrators dead, beats and intimidates ordinary citizens and raids homes without warrants. Welcome to Indian Kashmir, where the biggest separatist protests in two decades have clashed with the might of the state. "They are ruthless, trigger happy," said Ghulam Rasool Bhat, a labourer who says he was beaten by federal police after he tried to buy milk for his two nephews under a curfew in Srinagar, the summer capital of Indian Kashmir. He lay in a bed, both legs bandaged where a soldier, shouting "Get your milk from Pakistan" had smashed a rifle into his shins. His legs felt, he said, as if in a continuous cramp. Police have shot dead at least 35 Muslim protesters in the Muslim-majority Kashmir Valley after a row over land for a Hindu shrine spiralled into marches and strikes against Indian rule. More than 1,000 people have been wounded in clashes over three weeks, hospital officials and police say, with the Kashmir Valley often under curfew. Hundreds of people have suffered police baton beatings and bullet wounds, doctors say. The Indian government says its security forces have been fired upon by protesters on several occasions, and said authorities had "acted within the law and with restraint". Witnesses said some protesters had thrown stones at police, but said that most were marching peacefully. India's hardline response to the protests has highlighted what critics say is its lack of strategy to find a solution to a problem that has already sparked two wars between India and Pakistan, who both claim the region in full but rule it in parts. The crackdown may also be counter-productive. Residents say the deaths and violent crackdown have fuelled anger against India and boosted the separatist cause after years of relative peace. "The government of India does not have a strategy," said Siddharth Varadarajan, diplomatic editor of The Hindu newspaper. "It is relying heavily on coercion, arresting top and middle-level leaders in the hope it will break the back of unprecedented protests." In rare criticism last week, the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights called on India to avoid using excessive force. It drew a rebuke from India for interfering in its affairs. SIMMERING RESENTMENT For decades there has been simmering resentment at the hundreds of thousands of Indian troops stationed in Kashmir, making it one of the most militarised regions on earth. Roadblocks, verbal abuse from soldiers and raids on homes have long been a part of daily life. But as protests spiralled in August, the government sent in battalions of the Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF), a federal police force of mainly Hindus who do not speak Kashmiri. Strangers to Kashmir, most residents appear to despise them. In interviews in Srinagar and nearby villages, tales were similar: CRPF beatings, night raids on homes, verbal abuse and smashed windows. Life has been worse than in previous years. "They are not human," said Raja, a villager from Newtheed less than an hour's drive from the city. She said soldiers smashed up her home, shouting "We'll show you what freedom is". In Srinagar, the CRPF has taken over from the local Kashmiri police to enforce curfews and riot control. Residents complain of abuse at the slightest provocation -- selling bread, buying milk. One surgeon, who asked to remain anonymous because of fear of retribution from Indian authorities, said he has received around 400 wounded people in three weeks, 150 of them hit by bullets. "These are target killings. It's simple to see," said the doctor, explaining that many of the chest wounds were from weapons such as AK-47s. "Most of these were intended to kill. They were not to disperse a crowd." Shabir Ahmed Dar, 22, lay in one hospital bed after three operations. He was shot in the abdomen during a protest march to the Pakistani Kashmir border. "There was no warning from the police. They just fired." The police firings drew criticism from Human Rights Watch. "To end this cycle of tragedy, the government should order security forces to act with restraint," it said in a statement. It is not just a hardline response to street protests. Authorities have detained several separatist leaders without charge. Other leaders, many committed to democratic change and who publicly reject militant violence, were in hiding. Asiya Andrabi, chief of Kashmir's women's separatist group Dukhtaran-e-Milat (Daughters of the Muslim Faith) who had led some of the protests, has been detained under the Public Safety Act that allows for a year in jail without trial. The violence still pales in comparison with previous years when officials say more than 43,000 people have been killed in clashes involving Indian troops and Muslim militants since 1989. Human rights groups put the toll at about 60,000 dead or missing. Some analysts say authorities were in a difficult situation. "This is a place where security officials are getting attacked every second day," said Brahma Chellaney, professor of strategic studies at the New Delhi-based Centre for Policy Research, referring to the years of militant insurgency. For Shameema, a 35-year-old woman who sells bread, the fear of police was clear. She talked about how police smashed her and her family with batons for selling bread under curfew. Her husband displayed a wound to his head. She fell silent for a moment as a federal policeman official walked up to her shop, ominously tapping his baton. Then, realising he could not speak Kashmiri, she talked again. "I am scared," she said "But we have nowhere to go." (Additional reporting by Sheikh Mushtaq; Editing by Simon Denyer and Megan Goldin) From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Tue Sep 2 19:21:11 2008 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 19:21:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] FOURTH ESTATE CRITIQUE Urgent Appeal: Call/Fax/email to Kerala ministers to stop assault on the peaceful protesters In-Reply-To: <35f96d470809020556p6eeff39en8c73b42c59f76793@mail.gmail.com> References: <35f96d470809020555j5d03ca04w1b03fc550ac53e3c@mail.gmail.com> <35f96d470809020556p6eeff39en8c73b42c59f76793@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <35f96d470809020651g5d002090l120fb8c56e750a9f@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: anant maringanti Date: Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 7:12 PM Subject: Re: [foil] Urgent Appeal: Call/Fax/email to Kerala ministers to stop assault on the peaceful protesters There was a press conference to appeal against the union action in Delhi at 4.30 this evening. Reports should be appearing sometime tonite. It is not just the CITU but INTUC, AITUC, BMS, UTUC, KTUC have also joined in this. It is pointless addressing the party at this point - Prakash Karat is camping in Trivendrum and has been unavailable to the public. For what it is worth, here are two more contacts worth chasing down. anant General Secretary Indian National Trade Union Congress "Shramik Kendra", 4, Bhai Veer Singh Marg, New Delhi - 110 001. Phone - 91 + 11 + 23747767/68 91 + 11 + 23367401 Fax - 91 + 11 + 23364244 Bharatiya Mazdoor Sangh Ram Naresh Bhavan, Tilak Gali, Chuna Mandi, Paharganj, New Delhi - 110 055. India. Phone : 011-3620654, 3624212 Fax : 91-11-3517307 Email : ho at bms.org.in On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 6:26 PM, Anivar Aravind wrote: > > Dear friends > > Call/fax ministers, District Collector and The Supdt of Police of > Pathanamthitta and raise the concerns > > Pathanamthitta Collector > Phone : 0468- 2222515, 2222507 > Fax: 0468-2222505 > mobile no: 09447029008 > > Pathanamthitta SP > phone: 0468- 2222636 > Fax: 0468-2222927 > > Chief Minister > Fax: 0471-2333489 > home Minister > Fax: 0471--2327016 > > Please flood the ministers inbox with this appeal drafted below. Its > high time we do it. > > chiefminister at kerala.gov.in > minister-education at kerala.gov.in > minister-home at kerala.gov.in > minister-scst at kerala.gov.in > minister-forest at kerala.gov.in > minister-food at kerala.gov.in > minister-transport at kerala.gov.in > minister-revenue at kerala.gov.in > minister-health at kerala.gov.in > minister-finance at kerala.gov.in > minister-law at kerala.gov.in > > > Dear Sir/ Madam > > The lives and livelihoods of over 20,000 Dalits, Adivasis and others, > peacefully protesting for land at the Harrison Malayam Private Ltd > plantation in Chengara, Pathanthimthatta are in danger. A group of > trade unions claiming to represent the plantation's retrenched rubber > workers have announced plans to march and reclaim the land from the > peaceful protesters on Wednesday, September 3rd. > > The trade unions, including CITU, INTUC, AITUC, UTUC, HMS and others, > in collusion with company goons, have already succeeded in > manufacturing a human rights crisis in the area. Together, they have > been blocking food, medicines and other essential materials from > entering the plantation for the past one month, terrorizing the > peaceful protesters and their children. Women have been the targets > of brutal attacks by the workers of the trade unions and other hired > henchmen of Harrison Malayalam Ltd. > > Many women have testified that the attacks happened in the presence of > the police, who remained mute spectators and whose inaction encouraged > the perpetuators further. The police have also colluded in preventing > civil society groups from entering the site. > > The proposed March could potentially deteriorate the law and order > situation in the already fragile areas of Chengara further. In the > light of past actions, which were used as a cover up to inflict > physical harm and to denigrate the dignity of the protesting Dalits > and Adivasis, we urge you to take immediate actions to thwart attempts > of a March on September 3rd. > > We strongly feel that government can no longer sit idly and allow the > rights and lives of marginalized peoples' to be violated in this > manner. Under no circumstances should union activists and company > goons be allowed to march on the plantation this Wednesday. > > > We demand: > > 1. Immediately intervene to stop the September 3rd planned assault on > the peaceful protesters by trade unions and company goons. > > 2. Take immediate action against those responsible for the blockade, > ensuring the immediate lifting of the blockade, and restore normalcy > to people's lives. > > 3. Immediately initiate criminal proceedings against the perpetrators > of the sexual assault of the four women at the struggle site on August > 7th 2008. > > 4. Enter into a dialogue with the protestors and take measures to > distribute land to the landless. > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "FEC-Fourth Estate Critique" group. > To post to this group, send email to fourth-estate-critique at googlegroups.com > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to fourth-estate-critique+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/fourth-estate-critique?hl=en > -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- > From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Tue Sep 2 20:46:39 2008 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 20:46:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] September 24 is World Day Against Software Patents In-Reply-To: <35f96d470809020816i52961da1i6beef710ea192757@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080902110918.GA23297@ffii.org> <3f2beab60809020805x18a60b69la67bde67a9c106a8@mail.gmail.com> <35f96d470809020815icb935bfv26f3c07300598574@mail.gmail.com> <35f96d470809020816i52961da1i6beef710ea192757@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <35f96d470809020816j2b953f77hab50d2b4cc1845f6@mail.gmail.com> PRESS RELEASE — [ World / Economy / Innovation ] ======================================================================= September 24 Is World Day Against Software Patents ======================================================================= Brussels, 2nd September 2008 -- A global coalition of more than 80 software companies, associations and developers has declared the 24th of September to be the "World Day Against Software Patents". Five years ago, on 24 September 2003, the European Parliament adopted amendments to limit the scope of patent law and thereby protect small software companies from the harmful effects of broad and trivial software patents. A global petition asking to effectively stop software patents worldwide will be launched on 24 September 2008, together with specific additional requests for certain regions such as Europe, the United States or India. On 24 September 2008, the World Day Against Software Patents will provide volunteers with the opportunity to express the growing concerns of users, businesses and developers. The granting of software patents by patent offices around the world affects their freedom to innovate. The organisers expect 24h of activities across the globe. Volunteers will gather in front of patent offices to inform the general public of the problems underlying software patenting. A global petition demanding to effectively stop software patents worldwide will be launched on the same day. In some regions of the world such as Europe, the United States, or India, dedicated campaigns are being prepared by local supporters. The organisers intend to celebrate the World Day on an annual basis unless substantive clarifications are adopted in national laws that stop software patenting along with their effects on the digital economy. Benjamin Henrion, initiator of the StopSoftwarePatents coalition effort, explains "The aim behind StopSoftwarePatents is to gather a worldwide coalition of businesses and civil society in order to get laws which clearly exempt software from patentable subject matter. This is the best solution for getting rid of 'patent trolls' and uncontrollable legal risks generated by software patents. The day the software industry forms a clear front against software patents will be the beginning of the end for the 'patent trolls'." The Belgian campaigner was among the persons who persuaded the members of the European Parliament five years ago to adopt amendments that limit the scope of patent law in order to protect small software companies. The European Council of Ministers - where national patent offices exercise significant influence - fiercely insisted on making software patents legal in Europe. Additionally, 'patent trolls' and US-based corporations invested large lobby resources to support the position of the Council. After a long struggle, the proposed directive was finally rejected by the European Parliament in its second reading. Since then, European and national patent offices continue to grant these software and business method patents without an approval of the legislator by creative interpretation of the European Patent Convention. In few other nations, notably the US, the patent offices are even more permissive. However, even in the US, no legislator ever approved the practise. The global coalition calls for a larger representation of business and civil society against software patents. The current lobby gap makes Congress and Senate, the Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit (CAFC) and the Supreme Court susceptible to lobbying from patent industries, holders and patent professionals. Although companies affected by software patent litigation have been lobbying for a reform, their advocacy for "quality" and "lower damages" targets the symptoms rather than the roots of the problem. ======================================================================= Quotes ======================================================================= Businesses ========== Anwar Ummer Arackal, CEO of OpenFirms, a consulting company for some of the leading health care organizations and companies in India, says "Patents in the field of software hinders the accessibility to technology of our government health care clients who depend mainly on large scale deployment of embedded devices for functioning. This situation would lead to monopoly and anti competitive strategies." Stefane Fermigier, founder and chairman of Nuxeo SAS, says: "It is most important for the future of our company and our ecosystem, and for software innovation in general, that the tremendous legal uncertainties introduced by software patents for true innovators are kept out of the market." Marco Schulze, manager of Nightlabs, a professional supplier of ticketing solutions based in Freiburg, Germany, says: "Small Software companies cannot afford to go to court or pay damages. Who is this software patent system for?" PatentFrei, a coalition of 1000 German software businesses united against software patents, explains: "The copyright law, which should guaranty the copyright holder the security of an appropriate reimbursement, has become an empty shell. The creativity of software developers has been replaced by the creativity of patent lawyers with the writing of broad patent claims. Politicians are asked today more than ever to bring back a patent system which has gone off course, and to stop granting patents on software." Jean-Paul Smets, founder of the Noepatents petition in 2000 and CEO of Nexedi software publication, considers that "European Union is the world most friendly region for software innovators. Unlike in the US, Software Entrepreneurs can focus on R&D and do not need to worry about the risks of costly patent litigations or absurd software patents trolls." Eneko Astigarraga, CEO of CodeSyntax, a software company located in the Basque Country, says: "It's clear that software patents reduce competition and innovation in the software industry, patents represent a brake on innovation, especially on Internet." Charles-H. Schulz, Partner at Ars Aperta: "Software patents exclude competition, force companies out of business, drive up costs, impoverish states and hinder their citizens to innovate and create revenues. We chose to accept competition and foster innovation." Pieter Hintjens, founder and CEO of iMatix Corporation, which provides messaging solutions to the worlds financial markets, says "Patents are for firms that can't compete without state intervention. We were free to innovate in high-speed communications protocols because Europe was free of software patents. We have always seen the US-style patenting of basic ideas to be a curse on the fast-moving software business. Software patents are protectionist voodoo." Alberto Barrionuevo, President of Andalibre, the Association of open source companies of Andalusia, says "Software patents, if legalized, would destroy the most part of the IT business sector in the world. AndaLibre is strongly against any software patent and will fight for the freedom of creation in software." Matthew Holloway, the author of Docvert, says "Software patents are inherently broad and always result in government granted monopolies that allow one company to outlaw their competitors. Because of this software patents stifle innovation and economies. Allowing one company to own a software idea is as foolish as allowing one company to own a food idea. In my career I have never seen a software idea that was patent worthy." Civil Society ============= Hartmut Pilch, board member and former President of the FFII e.V., explained in 2006 how the patent system can be saved: "My message to the patent world is: Either get back to the doctrines of forces of nature or face the elimination of your system." John Ingleby, of Schoolforge UK, says "Software patents hamper development of new software by increasing legal costs while at the same time enabling concealment rather than publication of innovations." Richard Stallman, Founder of GNU Project and Free Software Foundation, says "Software patents are a threat to all software developers and all software users. Just one patent can ruin years of work, and no software project is safe: with each design decision, there is a chance you will step on a patent that will explode and destroy your project. To make software development safe for the developers and the users, we must abolish software patents." Bruce Perens, creator of the Open Source Definition, and advisor to governments and industries, says "Software patents are a drag on innovation in the countries that have implemented them, vastly increasing the cost of producing real products in the proprietary software world because they replace innovation with litigation. But we're most concerned with them because they are entirely incompatible with Open Source, which is the strongest driver of innovation in software development today." ANSOL, the Portuguese association for Free Software advocacy: "Asking for software patents is nothing more than creating an arms race. And we all know why arm dealers love those and the normal people who end up paying hate them." ======================================================================= Links ======================================================================= * Call for a World Day Against Software Patents signed by more then 80 stakeholders: http://stopsoftwarepatents.org/call * Draft petition with Request for public comments: http://stopsoftwarepatents.org/petition * Permanent link to this press release: http://press.ffii.org/Press_releases/September_24_Is_World_Day_Against_Software_Patents ======================================================================= Contact ======================================================================= Benjamin Henrion FFII Brussels +32-2-414 84 03 +32-484-566109 bhenrion at ffii.org (French/English) ======================================================================= About the FFII ======================================================================= The FFII is a not-for-profit association active in over fifty countries, dedicated to the development of information goods for the public benefit, based on copyright, free competition, and open standards. More than 850 members, 3,500 companies and 100,000 supporters have entrusted the FFII to act as their voice in public policy questions concerning exclusion rights (intellectual property) in data processing. From info at art-action.org Tue Sep 2 21:24:42 2008 From: info at art-action.org (info at art-action.org) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 17:54:42 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] ||||| CALL FOR ENTRIES: UNTIL SEPTEMBER 5, 2008 References: <7C9A5A88-6EB0-4667-B933-9E720073CBA8@sarai.net> Message-ID: <48BD61C2.DDB51101@art-action.org> dear all, please find below a short reminder about our current call for entries still open until september 5. best jfr + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + ||||| CALL FOR ENTRIES: UNTIL SEPTEMBER 5, 2008 ||||| RENCONTRES INTERNATIONALES PARIS/BERLIN/MADRID ||||| FILM / VIDEO / MULTIMEDIA ||||| http://art-action.org The 'Rencontres Internationales' will take place in Paris in November 2008 at the Centre Pompidou, at the Jeu de Paume national museum and in other key locations. The same program will be presented in Madrid in April 2009 and in Berlin in June 2009. Those three events will propose an international programming focusing on film, video and multimedia, gathering works of artists and filmmakers acknowledged on the international scene along with young artists and filmmakers. + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + ANY INDIVIDUAL OR ORGANIZATION CAN SUBMIT ONE OR SEVERAL PROPOSALS. THE CALL FOR ENTRIES IS OPEN TO FILM, VIDEO AND MULTIMEDIA PROPOSALS, without any restriction for length or genre. All submissions are free, regardless of geographical origin + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + FILM AND VIDEO (any film and video format) * Video / Experimental video * Fiction - short, medium and feature length * Documentary, experimental documentary * Experimental Film * Animation MULTIMEDIA * Video installation, multimedia installation * Net art * Multimedia performance, multimedia concert + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + Video and film submissions are received on DVD. ALL submissions are sent by postal mail, enclosed with a filled-in ONLINE ENTRY FORM, UNTIL SEPTEMBER 5, 2008 (postmarked). Entry form and information regarding the 'Rencontres internationales Paris/Berlin/Madrid' are posted on our website http://art-action.org/en_info_appel.htm + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + PLEASE FORWARD this piece of information to creative organizations, art networks, production organizations, artists and filmmakers you are in contact with. PARIS/BERLIN/MADRID In 2007, the 'Rencontres Internationales', which initially took place in Paris and Berlin, opened up to a third city: Madrid. This event now constitutes a unique artistic and cultural platform in Europe where artists can meet, to exchange with a wide audience, to develop new projects. The venues in the three cities are in particular the Centre Pompidou and the Jeu de Paume national museum in Paris, the Haus der Kulturen der Welt in Berlin, the Reina Sofia national museum and the Spanish Cinematheque in Madrid. The 'Rencontres Internationales' offers more than a simple presentation of the works. They introduce an intercultural forum gathering various guests from all over the world - artists and filmmakers, institutions and emerging organizations - to testify of their reflections and of their experiences, but also of artistic and cultural contexts that are often experiencing deep changes. The 'Rencontres Internationales' reflects specificities and convergences of art practices between new cinema and contemporary art, explores emerging media art practices and their critical purposes, and work out this necessary time when points of view meet and are exchanged. The event aims at presenting those works to a broad audience, at creating circulations between different art practices and between different audiences, as well as creating new exchanges between artists, filmmakers and professionals. It wishes to contribute to a reflection on our contemporary culture of image via a demanding program opened to everyone. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Sep 2 21:28:51 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 21:28:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Have you seen this face of the world's largest democracy? In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30809020647n3d7737f6w2dddd3791f25b54@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30809020647n3d7737f6w2dddd3791f25b54@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70809020858r7ddc9114vb9c48e3669450fce@mail.gmail.com> The following brief is based on the recorded findings of Historians including Muslim chroniclers and foreign non-Hindu travelers). *TAPER TEMPLES* Sikandar the iconoclast desecrated and destroyed this temple which was built by Queen of Partapaditya II who reigned in Kashmir from 634 to 648 A.D. Zain-Ul-Abdin (1420-70) A.D. used stones and idols in the construction of Bund from the Naidkhal to Sopore. *SHANKARACHARYA MANDIR (SRINAGAR)* Noor Jehan, Queen of Jahangir, built the grand Mosque known as Pather Masjid (Srinagar) with the sculptured beautiful stones which formed steps of the mandir right from River Jhelum to the top of the hill. *NARPARISTHAN MANDIR (SRINAGAR)* Built by Likhana-Naraindraditya who reigned Kashmir from 178 to 191 A.D. has been turned into a Muslim ziarat called Narparisthan. *KALI MANDIR (SRINAGAR)* Qutab-Ud-din usurped it (1373-89) A.D. to be converted into a mosque in memory of Mir Syed Ali of Hamdan of Persia who had come to the Valley to establish Islam. Hindu King Pravarsena ll. had dedicated the Kali-Shrine to the Goddess Kali (79-139 A.D.). *MAHASHRI MANDIR (SRINAGAR)* It was turned into a graveyard, Wife of Sikander was buried in its interior. *SKANDA BHAWAN (SRINAGAR Downtown)* Its sacred springs and massive temple construction desecrated and spoilt, it was christened as Ziarat of Pir Mohd. Basur. *TRIBHAWANA-SVAMIN (SRINAGAR Downtown)* This temple built by Chadrapida (684 to 693 A.D.) was laid to ruins and its vast vicinity used as graveyard. *KSHANA-GANVISHVARA* Built in (950-58 A.D.) was desecrated. Its sculptured stones removed. DIDDA- MATHA (Srinagar downtown) Temple converted into Tomb of Malik Sahib. *VIKRAMISHVERA (VICHARNAG)* Built (521-63 A.D.) It was destroyed by Sikander. Material utilized to built a mosque nearby. *AMRITA BHAWANA* Constructed by Queen Magavahana (22 B.C -13 A.D.) There are other ruins of Hindu temples in its vicinity which have been converted into Ziarats and burial grounds and nothing is known about their antiquity. *RANESHVARA (SHALIMAR GARDEN)* Built by King Ramadatiya (414-74 A.D) On the North Eastern corner of the Dal Lake, Pravarsena II, the founder of Srinagar had built a Villa for a Hindu saint named Sukarna Swami. Bernier, who visited Kashmir with Aurangzeb, gives an interesting account of the garden in his travels and says that the doors and pillars made of stone were used in the garden during Mughal era had come from some of the idol temples demolished by Shah Jehan and that it was impossible to estimate their value. *MARTAND* Built by King Ramadeva (2936-3005 B.C) with large ornamented and beautifully carved stones erecting it to the height of 50 yards. Regarding this British Researcher Sir Walter Lawrence has remarked thus: While the old Hindu buildings defy time and weather, the Musalman shrines and mosques crumbled away. Other foreign travelers have recorded that Hindu temples were built to endure for all time. Their solidity of construction and their gigantic size strike one with wonder that puny man could have built them. They often gazed upon them with amazement and lamented bigoted Muslim fanatics who laid them to ruins with tremendous efforts. *TEMPLE OF BUZMA* It was usurped and converted into the Ziarat of Baba Bamdin. Another temple close by was turned into the tomb of Rukh Din, disciple of Muslim Priest Bamdin. *SHRINES AROUND DAL LAKE* The slopes of the mountains overlooking the Dal lake have adorned many ancient shrines mercilessly destroyed by bigoted Muslim fanatics. *SHARDA UNIVERSITY & ACADEMY OF LEARNING (VIJAISHORI, now BIJBEHARA)* Sir Walter Lawrence records in his ''Vale of Kashmir'' that all books of Hindu learning which bigoted Muslims could lay their hands on were sunk in the Dal lake and Sikander flattered himself that he had extirpated Hinduism from the Valley. Alberuni an Arab scholar recording his visit to Kashmir has stated that in all their grandeur the Hindus of Kashmir never slackened in their ardent desire of doing that which was good and right. He also records they were men of noble sentiments and noble bearing. Books of science, astronomy, space travel, medicine and the like were destroyed - The labor of countless ages and countless researchers. We quote here under from world famous work of *Mr. M. A. Stein:* *Rajtarangini - Kalhana (Volume II)* Moti Lal Banarsidass Publishers Pvt. Ltd. Delhi, Reprint 1989 *HILL OF SARIKA* Eastern slopes of the latter are now occupied by extensive buildings connected with famous ziarats of Maqaddam Sahib and Akhun Mullah Shah. It is probable that Mohammadan shrines have taken here place of Hindu religious buildings, just as at so many old sites of Kashmir. Close to the foot of the southern extremity of the hill is a rock which has from ancient times received worship as an embodiment of Ganesa under the name of BHIMASVAMIN...... In fact, if we are to believe Jonaraja, the rock image has changed its position yet a second time. This chronicler relates that BHIMASVAMIN from disgust at the iconoclasm of Sikander Butshikan had finally turned his back on city. Page 446, para 95 *TEMPLE OF SIVA PRAVARESVAPA* A short distance to the S. E. to the BHIMASVAMIN rock and outside Akbar's fortress, lies Ziarat of Baha-ud-din Sahib, built undoubtedly with the materials of an ancient temple. The cemetery which surrounds it contains also many ancient remains in its tombs and walls. At the S.W. corner of this cemetery rises a ruined gateway, built of stone blocks of remarkable size, and still of considerable height. This structure is traditionally believed by the Srinagar Pandits to have belonged to the Temple of SIVA PRAVARESVARA which Kalahana mentions as the first Shrine erected by PRAVARESVARA in his new capital. ...... Blocks majoring up to sixteen feet in length, with a width and thickness equally imposing, were no convenient materials for the builders of Muhammadan Ziarats, hammams etc. who have otherwise done so much to efface the remains of ancient structures in Srinagar. The position of the ruins is very central and might have well been chosen by the founder of Pravarapura for prominent shrine in his new city. *POSITION OF RAMASVAMIN TEMPLE* Not far from Baha-ud-din Sahib's Ziarat, to the S.W. stands Jami Masjid, the greatest Mosque of Srinagar. Around it numerous ancient remains attest the former exist- ence of Hindu Temples. Proceeding still further to S.W, in the midst of a thickly built city-quarter, we reach an ancient shrine which has remained in a comparatively fair state of preservation probably owing to its conversion into a ziarat. It is now supposed to mark the resting - place of the saint styled Pir Haji Mohammed. It consists of an octagonal cellar of which high basement and the side walls are sill- preserved. The quadrangular court in which it stands is enclosed by ancient walls and approached by or ornamented gateways. The position of this shrine has suggested me its possible identity with the ancient temple of VISNU RANASVAMIN which Kalhana mentions as founded by Ranaditya.This temple must have enjoyed considerable celebrity up to a comparatively late period. Mankha refers to it an object of his father's devotion, and Jonaraja in his comments on the passage speaks of VISNU RANASVAMIN as one of the chief shrines of Pravarapura. The evidence on which the suggested identification is based has been fully indicated in note iii.453. Page 447, para 96 *SKANDABHAVANA* The site of vihara has been traced by me in the close vicinity of Ziarat Pir Muhammad Basur. Certain ancient remains there were locally known and worshipped till the middle of the present century as a tirth sacred to Skanda. Near the SKANDABHAVANVIHARA there stood once the temple of Sivaparavaguptesvara referred to by Kalhana as a foundation of King Paravagupta. Page 448, Para 97 *SAMUDRAMATHA* A little higher up, if we can trust local tradition, stood the ancient temple of VARDHAMANESA mentioned already in King SAMDHIMAT'S reign. The site so designated by the purohits of the adjoining mohalla is close to the Malyar ghat. I have referred already in a previous note to the curious manner in which an ancient linga supposed to be that of VARDHAMANESA was recovered a few years ago from a neighbouring mosque and a Mahatmaya composed for the newly established shrine. Page 450 Para 99 *JUSKAPURA* A tradition recorded already by General Cunninghum identifies this place (Zukur) with ancient JUSKAPURA. Kalhana names the place as a foundation of Turuska (i.e Kusana ) King Juska who also built Vihara there. The Muhammadan shrines and tombs of the village contain considerable remains of the ancient buildings. Page 456, Para 104 *AMARESVARA* On the shore of the Anchar lies the large village of Amburher. It took its name from a temple of Siva Amaresvara which Suryamati, Ananta's queen, endowed with Agraharas and a matha.The ancient slabs and sculptured fragments which I found in 1895 in and around the ziarat of Farrukhzad Sahib, may possibly have belonged to this temple. Page 456,457 Para 104 *VICHARNAG* It is held be a manifestation of Ailapattra Nag who is mentioned also in Nilamata. An earlier designation seems to be MUKAMULAKANAGA which is given to the locality by Srivara and in the Tirthasamgraha. To the west of village and near an inlet of Anchar are the ruins of three ancient temples now converted into ziarats and tombs. *TIRTHA OF SODARA* Close to the mosque of Sodarbal and by the lake shore are two pools fed by perennial springs. These according to local tradition, were in old times visited by numerous piligrims. Now all recollection of this tirtha has been lost among the Brahmins of Srinagar. But a name of the portion of the village area, Battapor, points to a former settlement of Battas or Purohits. It is curious too that we find only half a mile from the village the ziarat of Hazatbal, perhaps the most popular of all muhammadan shrines in the valley. It is supposed to be built over the remains of the miracle-working Pir Dastagir Sahib. Is it possible that the presence of the rather ubiquitous saint at this particular spot had something to do with the earlier Hindu Tirtha? Page 457, Para 104 *PADMAPURA* The chief place of Vihi Pargana is now the town of Pampar, the ancient Padmapura, about 4 miles south west of Khunmoh. It was founded in the beginning of 9th century by Padma, the powerful uncle of puppet King Cippata/Jayapida. Padma is said by the chronicle to have also built a temple of Visnu-Padmasvamin. To this may possibly have belonged the scanty remains of an ancient temple which have been described by General Cunningham. Close by is the Ziarat of Mir Muhammad Hamadani with some fine ancient columns and ornamented slabs which are likely to have been taken from the temple. Also other Ziarats of the town show similar remains. *SANARA* Only a mile to the south east of Khruv is the village of Sar, until recently the seat of flourishing iron-industry, Kalhana mentions it by the name of Sanara as an Agrahara founded by King Sacinara------. The Ziarat of Khwaja Khizar which stands here near small springs is built with the remains of the Hindu Temple. Page 459, Para 105 About two miles south-west of Sar are found the well preserved ruins of a temple near the village Ladu (not marked on survey map). They have been described by Bishop Cowie, but I am unable to trace any old reference to this shrine in the texts I have examined. It is remarkable for having a circular cellar, the only one known to me in Kashmir. A small square cellar to the east of this temple has been annexed to a neighbouring Ziarat. Page 459-60, Para 105 *CAKRADHARA* It was once the site of one of the oldest and most famous shrines of the volley, the temple of Visnu Cakradhara.... The plateau is still as TSAKDAR UDAR.... The shrine of Cakaradhara is often mentioned as Tirtha of great sanctity. The temple seems to have been subsequently restored, and Jonaraja mentions the statue of CAKRADHARA among those chief divine images which Sikandar Butshikan destroyed. Page 461-62, Para 107 *TEMPLE OF SIVA VIJAYESVARA* The old Linga of Siva Vijayesvara seems to have been destroyed by Sikander Butshikast. Page 464, Para 109 *DISTRICT OF VAMAPARSVA* It forms the modern Pargana of Khovurpor. An old site is undoubtedly the large village of Hutmar. Its modern name seems to identify it with the SAKTAMATA which Ksemendra names as one of the stations in peregrinations of his heroin Kankali. The chief mosque of the place is built with the remains of a Hindu temple and preserves in its walls some sculptured fragments of remarkable beauty. *SHRINE OF BHIMAKESAVA* About a mile below Hutmar and on the bank of a branch of Lider lies the hamlet of Bumzu which contains an ancient structure of considerable historical interest. The Ziarat of Baba Bamdin Sahib is nothing but a well preserved resting place of a Muhammadan saint. Page 465, Para 110 *TEMPLE OF MARTANDA* The ancient remains at the sacred spring itself are very scanty. All the more imposing are the ruins of the great temple which King Lalitaditya erected at a short distance of the presiding deity of the tirtha. The destruction of the sacred image is ascribed to Sikander Butshikast. Page 166, Para 111 *SAMANGASA* About four miles to the north east of Kother and on a branch of Arpath river lies the populous village of Sangas, the ancient Samagasa......... some old carved slabs built into the chief Ziarat of the place attest its antiquity. Page 467,468, Para 112 *DISTRICT OF KARALA* In the lower portion of the district and on the left bank of Visoka, we have the ancient Katimuso, the present village of Kaimuh. The place Is mentloned by Kalhana as Agrahara, founded by Tunjina I, and contains some old remains built into its chief Ziarat. Page 471, Para 116 *PARIHASAPURA* It has received its name from the ancient Parihasapura which King Lilitaditya had built as his captal. The identity of the names Parspor and Parihasapura is evident on phonetic grounds, and was well known to the authors of the Persian abstracts of Rajatarangini. Yet curiously enough the site of Parihasapura had remained unidentified until I visited the spot in 1892 and traced the ruins of Lalitaditya's great structures as described by Kalhana on the Plateau known as Paraspor Udar. The full destruction of the temples is attributed by Abu-l-fazal and the Muhammadan chroniclers to Sikandar Butshikast. Page 477 and 478, Para 121 *VARAHAMULA* Varahamula, situated on the right river bank, has left its name to the present town of Varahmul, usually called Baramulla by Punjabis and other foreigners. The ancient temple of Varaha which seems to have been one of the most famous shrines of Kashmir, is repeatedly mentioned by Kalhana. According to the tradition of the local Purohits it stood near the site of the present Kotithirtha, at the western extemity of the town and close to the river bank. Some ancient Lingas and sculptures found at Kotitirtha may have originally belonged to the temple. The destruction of its sacred image is noted by Jonaraja in the reign of Sikandar Butshikast. Page 482-483, Para 124 After India achieved freedom and Kashmir acceded to Union of India, temple desecration was resumed. Temple lands, cremation grounds etc. of Hindus were usurped for expansion of Islam. The famous Bhairavnath Temple of Chattabal, Srinagar was got locked through police. The judicial case pending in court concerning this temple was never allowed to be decided. Precious lands around Hari Parbat hill, Durganag Temple of Srinagar and lands at several Hindu placcs of worship in the valley were slowly and steadily turned into lands under occupation of Muslim trusts (Maqboozai-Ahali-Islam). In 1967 Shivala Temple, Chotta Bazar, Srinagar was desecrated. Again in 1984 Shri Hanuman Temple at Hari Singh High Street was damaged and in the same year Arya Samaj Temple of Wazir Bagh, Srinagar was burnt. From 1986 the law and order situation in the valley deteriorated day by day and temple desecration became order of the day. On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 7:17 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > Rage in Kashmir meets India's brute force > > http://in.reuters.com/article/topNews/idINIndia-35279820080902 > > By Alistair Scrutton > > SRINAGAR, India (Reuters) - The world's largest democracy locks up > protest leaders without charge, shoots dozens of demonstrators dead, > beats and intimidates ordinary citizens and raids homes without > warrants. > > Welcome to Indian Kashmir, where the biggest separatist protests in > two decades have clashed with the might of the state. > > "They are ruthless, trigger happy," said Ghulam Rasool Bhat, a > labourer who says he was beaten by federal police after he tried to > buy milk for his two nephews under a curfew in Srinagar, the summer > capital of Indian Kashmir. > > He lay in a bed, both legs bandaged where a soldier, shouting "Get > your milk from Pakistan" had smashed a rifle into his shins. His legs > felt, he said, as if in a continuous cramp. > > Police have shot dead at least 35 Muslim protesters in the > Muslim-majority Kashmir Valley after a row over land for a Hindu > shrine spiralled into marches and strikes against Indian rule. > > More than 1,000 people have been wounded in clashes over three weeks, > hospital officials and police say, with the Kashmir Valley often under > curfew. Hundreds of people have suffered police baton beatings and > bullet wounds, doctors say. > > The Indian government says its security forces have been fired upon by > protesters on several occasions, and said authorities had "acted > within the law and with restraint". > > Witnesses said some protesters had thrown stones at police, but said > that most were marching peacefully. India's hardline response to the > protests has highlighted what critics say is its lack of strategy to > find a solution to a problem that has already sparked two wars between > India and Pakistan, who both claim the region in full but rule it in > parts. > > The crackdown may also be counter-productive. Residents say the deaths > and violent crackdown have fuelled anger against India and boosted the > separatist cause after years of relative peace. > > "The government of India does not have a strategy," said Siddharth > Varadarajan, diplomatic editor of The Hindu newspaper. > > "It is relying heavily on coercion, arresting top and middle-level > leaders in the hope it will break the back of unprecedented protests." > > In rare criticism last week, the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights > called on India to avoid using excessive force. It drew a rebuke from > India for interfering in its affairs. > > SIMMERING RESENTMENT > > For decades there has been simmering resentment at the hundreds of > thousands of Indian troops stationed in Kashmir, making it one of the > most militarised regions on earth. > > Roadblocks, verbal abuse from soldiers and raids on homes have long > been a part of daily life. But as protests spiralled in August, the > government sent in battalions of the Central Reserve Police Force > (CRPF), a federal police force of mainly Hindus who do not speak > Kashmiri. Strangers to Kashmir, most residents appear to despise them. > > In interviews in Srinagar and nearby villages, tales were similar: > CRPF beatings, night raids on homes, verbal abuse and smashed windows. > Life has been worse than in previous years. > > "They are not human," said Raja, a villager from Newtheed less than an > hour's drive from the city. She said soldiers smashed up her home, > shouting "We'll show you what freedom is". > > In Srinagar, the CRPF has taken over from the local Kashmiri police to > enforce curfews and riot control. Residents complain of abuse at the > slightest provocation -- selling bread, buying milk. > > One surgeon, who asked to remain anonymous because of fear of > retribution from Indian authorities, said he has received around 400 > wounded people in three weeks, 150 of them hit by bullets. > > "These are target killings. It's simple to see," said the doctor, > explaining that many of the chest wounds were from weapons such as > AK-47s. "Most of these were intended to kill. They were not to > disperse a crowd." > > Shabir Ahmed Dar, 22, lay in one hospital bed after three operations. > He was shot in the abdomen during a protest march to the Pakistani > Kashmir border. > > "There was no warning from the police. They just fired." > > The police firings drew criticism from Human Rights Watch. "To end > this cycle of tragedy, the government should order security forces to > act with restraint," it said in a statement. > > It is not just a hardline response to street protests. Authorities > have detained several separatist leaders without charge. Other > leaders, many committed to democratic change and who publicly reject > militant violence, were in hiding. > > Asiya Andrabi, chief of Kashmir's women's separatist group > Dukhtaran-e-Milat (Daughters of the Muslim Faith) who had led some of > the protests, has been detained under the Public Safety Act that > allows for a year in jail without trial. > > The violence still pales in comparison with previous years when > officials say more than 43,000 people have been killed in clashes > involving Indian troops and Muslim militants since 1989. Human rights > groups put the toll at about 60,000 dead or missing. > > Some analysts say authorities were in a difficult situation. > > "This is a place where security officials are getting attacked every > second day," said Brahma Chellaney, professor of strategic studies at > the New Delhi-based Centre for Policy Research, referring to the years > of militant insurgency. > > For Shameema, a 35-year-old woman who sells bread, the fear of police > was clear. She talked about how police smashed her and her family with > batons for selling bread under curfew. Her husband displayed a wound > to his head. > > She fell silent for a moment as a federal policeman official walked up > to her shop, ominously tapping his baton. Then, realising he could not > speak Kashmiri, she talked again. > > "I am scared," she said "But we have nowhere to go." > > (Additional reporting by Sheikh Mushtaq; Editing by Simon Denyer and > Megan Goldin) > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From indersalim at gmail.com Tue Sep 2 21:58:25 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 21:58:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Have you seen this face of the world's largest democracy? In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30809020647n3d7737f6w2dddd3791f25b54@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30809020647n3d7737f6w2dddd3791f25b54@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70809020928g4a48b1e5mfdfb3501a1f63e3c@mail.gmail.com> Lord Rama is weeping on seeing his brother Laxmana injured. only the most insensitive would hesitate to derail the process of healing in Kashmir. so, listen to what the patient is suffereing from? with love inder salim On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 7:17 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > Rage in Kashmir meets India's brute force > > http://in.reuters.com/article/topNews/idINIndia-35279820080902 > > By Alistair Scrutton > > SRINAGAR, India (Reuters) - The world's largest democracy locks up > protest leaders without charge, shoots dozens of demonstrators dead, > beats and intimidates ordinary citizens and raids homes without > warrants. > > Welcome to Indian Kashmir, where the biggest separatist protests in > two decades have clashed with the might of the state. > > "They are ruthless, trigger happy," said Ghulam Rasool Bhat, a > labourer who says he was beaten by federal police after he tried to > buy milk for his two nephews under a curfew in Srinagar, the summer > capital of Indian Kashmir. > > He lay in a bed, both legs bandaged where a soldier, shouting "Get > your milk from Pakistan" had smashed a rifle into his shins. His legs > felt, he said, as if in a continuous cramp. > > Police have shot dead at least 35 Muslim protesters in the > Muslim-majority Kashmir Valley after a row over land for a Hindu > shrine spiralled into marches and strikes against Indian rule. > > More than 1,000 people have been wounded in clashes over three weeks, > hospital officials and police say, with the Kashmir Valley often under > curfew. Hundreds of people have suffered police baton beatings and > bullet wounds, doctors say. > > The Indian government says its security forces have been fired upon by > protesters on several occasions, and said authorities had "acted > within the law and with restraint". > > Witnesses said some protesters had thrown stones at police, but said > that most were marching peacefully. India's hardline response to the > protests has highlighted what critics say is its lack of strategy to > find a solution to a problem that has already sparked two wars between > India and Pakistan, who both claim the region in full but rule it in > parts. > > The crackdown may also be counter-productive. Residents say the deaths > and violent crackdown have fuelled anger against India and boosted the > separatist cause after years of relative peace. > > "The government of India does not have a strategy," said Siddharth > Varadarajan, diplomatic editor of The Hindu newspaper. > > "It is relying heavily on coercion, arresting top and middle-level > leaders in the hope it will break the back of unprecedented protests." > > In rare criticism last week, the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights > called on India to avoid using excessive force. It drew a rebuke from > India for interfering in its affairs. > > SIMMERING RESENTMENT > > For decades there has been simmering resentment at the hundreds of > thousands of Indian troops stationed in Kashmir, making it one of the > most militarised regions on earth. > > Roadblocks, verbal abuse from soldiers and raids on homes have long > been a part of daily life. But as protests spiralled in August, the > government sent in battalions of the Central Reserve Police Force > (CRPF), a federal police force of mainly Hindus who do not speak > Kashmiri. Strangers to Kashmir, most residents appear to despise them. > > In interviews in Srinagar and nearby villages, tales were similar: > CRPF beatings, night raids on homes, verbal abuse and smashed windows. > Life has been worse than in previous years. > > "They are not human," said Raja, a villager from Newtheed less than an > hour's drive from the city. She said soldiers smashed up her home, > shouting "We'll show you what freedom is". > > In Srinagar, the CRPF has taken over from the local Kashmiri police to > enforce curfews and riot control. Residents complain of abuse at the > slightest provocation -- selling bread, buying milk. > > One surgeon, who asked to remain anonymous because of fear of > retribution from Indian authorities, said he has received around 400 > wounded people in three weeks, 150 of them hit by bullets. > > "These are target killings. It's simple to see," said the doctor, > explaining that many of the chest wounds were from weapons such as > AK-47s. "Most of these were intended to kill. They were not to > disperse a crowd." > > Shabir Ahmed Dar, 22, lay in one hospital bed after three operations. > He was shot in the abdomen during a protest march to the Pakistani > Kashmir border. > > "There was no warning from the police. They just fired." > > The police firings drew criticism from Human Rights Watch. "To end > this cycle of tragedy, the government should order security forces to > act with restraint," it said in a statement. > > It is not just a hardline response to street protests. Authorities > have detained several separatist leaders without charge. Other > leaders, many committed to democratic change and who publicly reject > militant violence, were in hiding. > > Asiya Andrabi, chief of Kashmir's women's separatist group > Dukhtaran-e-Milat (Daughters of the Muslim Faith) who had led some of > the protests, has been detained under the Public Safety Act that > allows for a year in jail without trial. > > The violence still pales in comparison with previous years when > officials say more than 43,000 people have been killed in clashes > involving Indian troops and Muslim militants since 1989. Human rights > groups put the toll at about 60,000 dead or missing. > > Some analysts say authorities were in a difficult situation. > > "This is a place where security officials are getting attacked every > second day," said Brahma Chellaney, professor of strategic studies at > the New Delhi-based Centre for Policy Research, referring to the years > of militant insurgency. > > For Shameema, a 35-year-old woman who sells bread, the fear of police > was clear. She talked about how police smashed her and her family with > batons for selling bread under curfew. Her husband displayed a wound > to his head. > > She fell silent for a moment as a federal policeman official walked up > to her shop, ominously tapping his baton. Then, realising he could not > speak Kashmiri, she talked again. > > "I am scared," she said "But we have nowhere to go." > > (Additional reporting by Sheikh Mushtaq; Editing by Simon Denyer and > Megan Goldin) > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Tue Sep 2 22:08:28 2008 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 09:38:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Have you seen this face of the world's largest democracy? Message-ID: <772994.9923.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Do you think Islam is Laxman? Laxman was obedience to his elder brother. Islam is deadly against its elder brother Hinduism. And do not say Ramayan is a myth. All the research on Ram Sethu and further in Sri Lanka has gone to proove the million year old history of India, that is sung by every Indian even today. If you want the list of temples put down in Kashmir in recent decade, here is it: http://www.awakehindu.com/Articles/ListOfTempleDemolition.htm ----- Original Message ---- From: inder salim To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Tuesday, September 2, 2008 9:58:25 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Have you seen this face of the world's largest democracy? Lord Rama is weeping on seeing his brother Laxmana injured. only the most insensitive would hesitate to derail the process of healing in Kashmir. so, listen to what the patient is suffereing from? with love inder salim On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 7:17 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > > Rage in Kashmir meets India's brute force > > http://in.reuters.com/article/topNews/idINIndia-35279820080902 > > By Alistair Scrutton > > SRINAGAR, India (Reuters) - The world's largest democracy locks up > protest leaders without charge, shoots dozens of demonstrators dead, > beats and intimidates ordinary citizens and raids homes without > warrants. > > Welcome to Indian Kashmir, where the biggest separatist protests in > two decades have clashed with the might of the state. > > "They are ruthless, trigger happy," said Ghulam Rasool Bhat, a > labourer who says he was beaten by federal police after he tried to > buy milk for his two nephews under a curfew in Srinagar, the summer > capital of Indian Kashmir. > > He lay in a bed, both legs bandaged where a soldier, shouting "Get > your milk from Pakistan" had smashed a rifle into his shins. His legs > felt, he said, as if in a continuous cramp. > > Police have shot dead at least 35 Muslim protesters in the > Muslim-majority Kashmir Valley after a row over land for a Hindu > shrine spiralled into marches and strikes against Indian rule. > > More than 1,000 people have been wounded in clashes over three weeks, > hospital officials and police say, with the Kashmir Valley often under > curfew. Hundreds of people have suffered police baton beatings and > bullet wounds, doctors say. > > The Indian government says its security forces have been fired upon by > protesters on several occasions, and said authorities had "acted > within the law and with restraint". > > Witnesses said some protesters had thrown stones at police, but said > that most were marching peacefully. India's hardline response to the > protests has highlighted what critics say is its lack of strategy to > find a solution to a problem that has already sparked two wars between > India and Pakistan, who both claim the region in full but rule it in > parts. > > The crackdown may also be counter-productive. Residents say the deaths > and violent crackdown have fuelled anger against India and boosted the > separatist cause after years of relative peace. > > "The government of India does not have a strategy," said Siddharth > Varadarajan, diplomatic editor of The Hindu newspaper. > > "It is relying heavily on coercion, arresting top and middle-level > leaders in the hope it will break the back of unprecedented protests." > > In rare criticism last week, the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights > called on India to avoid using excessive force. It drew a rebuke from > India for interfering in its affairs. > > SIMMERING RESENTMENT > > For decades there has been simmering resentment at the hundreds of > thousands of Indian troops stationed in Kashmir, making it one of the > most militarised regions on earth. > > Roadblocks, verbal abuse from soldiers and raids on homes have long > been a part of daily life. But as protests spiralled in August, the > government sent in battalions of the Central Reserve Police Force > (CRPF), a federal police force of mainly Hindus who do not speak > Kashmiri. Strangers to Kashmir, most residents appear to despise them. > > In interviews in Srinagar and nearby villages, tales were similar: > CRPF beatings, night raids on homes, verbal abuse and smashed windows. > Life has been worse than in previous years. > > "They are not human," said Raja, a villager from Newtheed less than an > hour's drive from the city. She said soldiers smashed up her home, > shouting "We'll show you what freedom is". > > In Srinagar, the CRPF has taken over from the local Kashmiri police to > enforce curfews and riot control. Residents complain of abuse at the > slightest provocation -- selling bread, buying milk. > > One surgeon, who asked to remain anonymous because of fear of > retribution from Indian authorities, said he has received around 400 > wounded people in three weeks, 150 of them hit by bullets. > > "These are target killings. It's simple to see," said the doctor, > explaining that many of the chest wounds were from weapons such as > AK-47s. "Most of these were intended to kill. They were not to > disperse a crowd." > > Shabir Ahmed Dar, 22, lay in one hospital bed after three operations. > He was shot in the abdomen during a protest march to the Pakistani > Kashmir border. > > "There was no warning from the police. They just fired." > > The police firings drew criticism from Human Rights Watch. "To end > this cycle of tragedy, the government should order security forces to > act with restraint," it said in a statement. > > It is not just a hardline response to street protests. Authorities > have detained several separatist leaders without charge. Other > leaders, many committed to democratic change and who publicly reject > militant violence, were in hiding. > > Asiya Andrabi, chief of Kashmir's women's separatist group > Dukhtaran-e-Milat (Daughters of the Muslim Faith) who had led some of > the protests, has been detained under the Public Safety Act that > allows for a year in jail without trial. > > The violence still pales in comparison with previous years when > officials say more than 43,000 people have been killed in clashes > involving Indian troops and Muslim militants since 1989. Human rights > groups put the toll at about 60,000 dead or missing. > > Some analysts say authorities were in a difficult situation. > > "This is a place where security officials are getting attacked every > second day," said Brahma Chellaney, professor of strategic studies at > the New Delhi-based Centre for Policy Research, referring to the years > of militant insurgency. > > For Shameema, a 35-year-old woman who sells bread, the fear of police > was clear. She talked about how police smashed her and her family with > batons for selling bread under curfew. Her husband displayed a wound > to his head. > > She fell silent for a moment as a federal policeman official walked up > to her shop, ominously tapping his baton. Then, realising he could not > speak Kashmiri, she talked again. > > "I am scared," she said "But we have nowhere to go." > > (Additional reporting by Sheikh Mushtaq; Editing by Simon Denyer and > Megan Goldin) > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Tue Sep 2 22:16:50 2008 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 22:16:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Chengara : Updates In-Reply-To: <35f96d470809020945r5964043s2fd3e87efccd85ba@mail.gmail.com> References: <35f96d470809020945r5964043s2fd3e87efccd85ba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <35f96d470809020946n34e30955ra7e5537b7976e0f7@mail.gmail.com> Rekha Raj(Panjami Dalit Feminist Collective), Seeta , Sonia George (Kerala Streevedi) and J. Devika went and met Prakash Karat today. Rekha said he assured that state will make sure that there won't be any violence tomorrow. He also said that A K Balan has reported to him that a package will be announced soon. Sunni says, BMS has reportedly decided to withdraw from the march if it is not assured that there wont be any violence. Small but significant victories for democratic forces. Let us continue our efforts.. 24 hour Vigil is now going on in front of Kerala Secretariat Those near Pathanamtitta, do come to Pathanamtitta tomorrow. We are assembling there tomorrow From indersalim at gmail.com Tue Sep 2 22:27:14 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 22:27:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Have you seen this face of the world's largest democracy? In-Reply-To: <772994.9923.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <772994.9923.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70809020957w2bf9c89x1aa1865390859597@mail.gmail.com> BE SHAK MANDIR MASJID TODO, PAR PYAR BARA DIL KABI NA TODO - ( .. may demolish a temple, a mosque, but never a heart full of love ) it is normal for Indians to love bollywood On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 10:08 PM, chanchal malviya wrote: > > Do you think Islam is Laxman? > Laxman was obedience to his elder brother. > Islam is deadly against its elder brother Hinduism. > > And do not say Ramayan is a myth. All the research on Ram Sethu and further in Sri Lanka has gone to proove the million year old history of India, that is sung by every Indian even today. > > If you want the list of temples put down in Kashmir in recent decade, here is it: > http://www.awakehindu.com/Articles/ListOfTempleDemolition.htm > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: inder salim > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Tuesday, September 2, 2008 9:58:25 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Have you seen this face of the world's largest democracy? > > Lord Rama is weeping on seeing his brother Laxmana injured. > > only the most insensitive would hesitate to derail the process of > healing in Kashmir. > > so, listen to what the patient is suffereing from? > > with love > inder salim > > On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 7:17 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् > wrote: > > > > Rage in Kashmir meets India's brute force > > > > http://in.reuters.com/article/topNews/idINIndia-35279820080902 > > > > By Alistair Scrutton > > > > SRINAGAR, India (Reuters) - The world's largest democracy locks up > > protest leaders without charge, shoots dozens of demonstrators dead, > > beats and intimidates ordinary citizens and raids homes without > > warrants. > > > > Welcome to Indian Kashmir, where the biggest separatist protests in > > two decades have clashed with the might of the state. > > > > "They are ruthless, trigger happy," said Ghulam Rasool Bhat, a > > labourer who says he was beaten by federal police after he tried to > > buy milk for his two nephews under a curfew in Srinagar, the summer > > capital of Indian Kashmir. > > > > He lay in a bed, both legs bandaged where a soldier, shouting "Get > > your milk from Pakistan" had smashed a rifle into his shins. His legs > > felt, he said, as if in a continuous cramp. > > > > Police have shot dead at least 35 Muslim protesters in the > > Muslim-majority Kashmir Valley after a row over land for a Hindu > > shrine spiralled into marches and strikes against Indian rule. > > > > More than 1,000 people have been wounded in clashes over three weeks, > > hospital officials and police say, with the Kashmir Valley often under > > curfew. Hundreds of people have suffered police baton beatings and > > bullet wounds, doctors say. > > > > The Indian government says its security forces have been fired upon by > > protesters on several occasions, and said authorities had "acted > > within the law and with restraint". > > > > Witnesses said some protesters had thrown stones at police, but said > > that most were marching peacefully. India's hardline response to the > > protests has highlighted what critics say is its lack of strategy to > > find a solution to a problem that has already sparked two wars between > > India and Pakistan, who both claim the region in full but rule it in > > parts. > > > > The crackdown may also be counter-productive. Residents say the deaths > > and violent crackdown have fuelled anger against India and boosted the > > separatist cause after years of relative peace. > > > > "The government of India does not have a strategy," said Siddharth > > Varadarajan, diplomatic editor of The Hindu newspaper. > > > > "It is relying heavily on coercion, arresting top and middle-level > > leaders in the hope it will break the back of unprecedented protests." > > > > In rare criticism last week, the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights > > called on India to avoid using excessive force. It drew a rebuke from > > India for interfering in its affairs. > > > > SIMMERING RESENTMENT > > > > For decades there has been simmering resentment at the hundreds of > > thousands of Indian troops stationed in Kashmir, making it one of the > > most militarised regions on earth. > > > > Roadblocks, verbal abuse from soldiers and raids on homes have long > > been a part of daily life. But as protests spiralled in August, the > > government sent in battalions of the Central Reserve Police Force > > (CRPF), a federal police force of mainly Hindus who do not speak > > Kashmiri. Strangers to Kashmir, most residents appear to despise them. > > > > In interviews in Srinagar and nearby villages, tales were similar: > > CRPF beatings, night raids on homes, verbal abuse and smashed windows. > > Life has been worse than in previous years. > > > > "They are not human," said Raja, a villager from Newtheed less than an > > hour's drive from the city. She said soldiers smashed up her home, > > shouting "We'll show you what freedom is". > > > > In Srinagar, the CRPF has taken over from the local Kashmiri police to > > enforce curfews and riot control. Residents complain of abuse at the > > slightest provocation -- selling bread, buying milk. > > > > One surgeon, who asked to remain anonymous because of fear of > > retribution from Indian authorities, said he has received around 400 > > wounded people in three weeks, 150 of them hit by bullets. > > > > "These are target killings. It's simple to see," said the doctor, > > explaining that many of the chest wounds were from weapons such as > > AK-47s. "Most of these were intended to kill. They were not to > > disperse a crowd." > > > > Shabir Ahmed Dar, 22, lay in one hospital bed after three operations. > > He was shot in the abdomen during a protest march to the Pakistani > > Kashmir border. > > > > "There was no warning from the police. They just fired." > > > > The police firings drew criticism from Human Rights Watch. "To end > > this cycle of tragedy, the government should order security forces to > > act with restraint," it said in a statement. > > > > It is not just a hardline response to street protests. Authorities > > have detained several separatist leaders without charge. Other > > leaders, many committed to democratic change and who publicly reject > > militant violence, were in hiding. > > > > Asiya Andrabi, chief of Kashmir's women's separatist group > > Dukhtaran-e-Milat (Daughters of the Muslim Faith) who had led some of > > the protests, has been detained under the Public Safety Act that > > allows for a year in jail without trial. > > > > The violence still pales in comparison with previous years when > > officials say more than 43,000 people have been killed in clashes > > involving Indian troops and Muslim militants since 1989. Human rights > > groups put the toll at about 60,000 dead or missing. > > > > Some analysts say authorities were in a difficult situation. > > > > "This is a place where security officials are getting attacked every > > second day," said Brahma Chellaney, professor of strategic studies at > > the New Delhi-based Centre for Policy Research, referring to the years > > of militant insurgency. > > > > For Shameema, a 35-year-old woman who sells bread, the fear of police > > was clear. She talked about how police smashed her and her family with > > batons for selling bread under curfew. Her husband displayed a wound > > to his head. > > > > She fell silent for a moment as a federal policeman official walked up > > to her shop, ominously tapping his baton. Then, realising he could not > > speak Kashmiri, she talked again. > > > > "I am scared," she said "But we have nowhere to go." > > > > (Additional reporting by Sheikh Mushtaq; Editing by Simon Denyer and > > Megan Goldin) > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Tue Sep 2 23:02:46 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 23:02:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Have you seen this face of the world's largest democracy? In-Reply-To: <47e122a70809020957w2bf9c89x1aa1865390859597@mail.gmail.com> References: <772994.9923.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <47e122a70809020957w2bf9c89x1aa1865390859597@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690809021032xe06b0d5v58cea573b33ee8fb@mail.gmail.com> And, probably your emotional one liners come from bollywood. :) :) On 9/2/08, inder salim wrote: > > BE SHAK MANDIR MASJID TODO, PAR PYAR BARA DIL KABI NA TODO - > > ( .. may demolish a temple, a mosque, but never a heart full of love ) > > it is normal for Indians to love bollywood > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 10:08 PM, chanchal malviya > wrote: > > > > Do you think Islam is Laxman? > > Laxman was obedience to his elder brother. > > Islam is deadly against its elder brother Hinduism. > > > > And do not say Ramayan is a myth. All the research on Ram Sethu and > further in Sri Lanka has gone to proove the million year old history of > India, that is sung by every Indian even today. > > > > If you want the list of temples put down in Kashmir in recent decade, > here is it: > > http://www.awakehindu.com/Articles/ListOfTempleDemolition.htm > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: inder salim > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > Sent: Tuesday, September 2, 2008 9:58:25 PM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Have you seen this face of the world's largest > democracy? > > > > Lord Rama is weeping on seeing his brother Laxmana injured. > > > > only the most insensitive would hesitate to derail the process of > > healing in Kashmir. > > > > so, listen to what the patient is suffereing from? > > > > with love > > inder salim > > > > On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 7:17 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् > > wrote: > > > > > > Rage in Kashmir meets India's brute force > > > > > > http://in.reuters.com/article/topNews/idINIndia-35279820080902 > > > > > > By Alistair Scrutton > > > > > > SRINAGAR, India (Reuters) - The world's largest democracy locks up > > > protest leaders without charge, shoots dozens of demonstrators dead, > > > beats and intimidates ordinary citizens and raids homes without > > > warrants. > > > > > > Welcome to Indian Kashmir, where the biggest separatist protests in > > > two decades have clashed with the might of the state. > > > > > > "They are ruthless, trigger happy," said Ghulam Rasool Bhat, a > > > labourer who says he was beaten by federal police after he tried to > > > buy milk for his two nephews under a curfew in Srinagar, the summer > > > capital of Indian Kashmir. > > > > > > He lay in a bed, both legs bandaged where a soldier, shouting "Get > > > your milk from Pakistan" had smashed a rifle into his shins. His legs > > > felt, he said, as if in a continuous cramp. > > > > > > Police have shot dead at least 35 Muslim protesters in the > > > Muslim-majority Kashmir Valley after a row over land for a Hindu > > > shrine spiralled into marches and strikes against Indian rule. > > > > > > More than 1,000 people have been wounded in clashes over three weeks, > > > hospital officials and police say, with the Kashmir Valley often under > > > curfew. Hundreds of people have suffered police baton beatings and > > > bullet wounds, doctors say. > > > > > > The Indian government says its security forces have been fired upon by > > > protesters on several occasions, and said authorities had "acted > > > within the law and with restraint". > > > > > > Witnesses said some protesters had thrown stones at police, but said > > > that most were marching peacefully. India's hardline response to the > > > protests has highlighted what critics say is its lack of strategy to > > > find a solution to a problem that has already sparked two wars between > > > India and Pakistan, who both claim the region in full but rule it in > > > parts. > > > > > > The crackdown may also be counter-productive. Residents say the deaths > > > and violent crackdown have fuelled anger against India and boosted the > > > separatist cause after years of relative peace. > > > > > > "The government of India does not have a strategy," said Siddharth > > > Varadarajan, diplomatic editor of The Hindu newspaper. > > > > > > "It is relying heavily on coercion, arresting top and middle-level > > > leaders in the hope it will break the back of unprecedented protests." > > > > > > In rare criticism last week, the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights > > > called on India to avoid using excessive force. It drew a rebuke from > > > India for interfering in its affairs. > > > > > > SIMMERING RESENTMENT > > > > > > For decades there has been simmering resentment at the hundreds of > > > thousands of Indian troops stationed in Kashmir, making it one of the > > > most militarised regions on earth. > > > > > > Roadblocks, verbal abuse from soldiers and raids on homes have long > > > been a part of daily life. But as protests spiralled in August, the > > > government sent in battalions of the Central Reserve Police Force > > > (CRPF), a federal police force of mainly Hindus who do not speak > > > Kashmiri. Strangers to Kashmir, most residents appear to despise them. > > > > > > In interviews in Srinagar and nearby villages, tales were similar: > > > CRPF beatings, night raids on homes, verbal abuse and smashed windows. > > > Life has been worse than in previous years. > > > > > > "They are not human," said Raja, a villager from Newtheed less than an > > > hour's drive from the city. She said soldiers smashed up her home, > > > shouting "We'll show you what freedom is". > > > > > > In Srinagar, the CRPF has taken over from the local Kashmiri police to > > > enforce curfews and riot control. Residents complain of abuse at the > > > slightest provocation -- selling bread, buying milk. > > > > > > One surgeon, who asked to remain anonymous because of fear of > > > retribution from Indian authorities, said he has received around 400 > > > wounded people in three weeks, 150 of them hit by bullets. > > > > > > "These are target killings. It's simple to see," said the doctor, > > > explaining that many of the chest wounds were from weapons such as > > > AK-47s. "Most of these were intended to kill. They were not to > > > disperse a crowd." > > > > > > Shabir Ahmed Dar, 22, lay in one hospital bed after three operations. > > > He was shot in the abdomen during a protest march to the Pakistani > > > Kashmir border. > > > > > > "There was no warning from the police. They just fired." > > > > > > The police firings drew criticism from Human Rights Watch. "To end > > > this cycle of tragedy, the government should order security forces to > > > act with restraint," it said in a statement. > > > > > > It is not just a hardline response to street protests. Authorities > > > have detained several separatist leaders without charge. Other > > > leaders, many committed to democratic change and who publicly reject > > > militant violence, were in hiding. > > > > > > Asiya Andrabi, chief of Kashmir's women's separatist group > > > Dukhtaran-e-Milat (Daughters of the Muslim Faith) who had led some of > > > the protests, has been detained under the Public Safety Act that > > > allows for a year in jail without trial. > > > > > > The violence still pales in comparison with previous years when > > > officials say more than 43,000 people have been killed in clashes > > > involving Indian troops and Muslim militants since 1989. Human rights > > > groups put the toll at about 60,000 dead or missing. > > > > > > Some analysts say authorities were in a difficult situation. > > > > > > "This is a place where security officials are getting attacked every > > > second day," said Brahma Chellaney, professor of strategic studies at > > > the New Delhi-based Centre for Policy Research, referring to the years > > > of militant insurgency. > > > > > > For Shameema, a 35-year-old woman who sells bread, the fear of police > > > was clear. She talked about how police smashed her and her family with > > > batons for selling bread under curfew. Her husband displayed a wound > > > to his head. > > > > > > She fell silent for a moment as a federal policeman official walked up > > > to her shop, ominously tapping his baton. Then, realising he could not > > > speak Kashmiri, she talked again. > > > > > > "I am scared," she said "But we have nowhere to go." > > > > > > (Additional reporting by Sheikh Mushtaq; Editing by Simon Denyer and > > > Megan Goldin) > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > -- > > > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Wed Sep 3 07:39:31 2008 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 19:09:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions In-Reply-To: <448388.35174.qm@web51404.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <594974.79041.qm@web53601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> OK, I think we are almost on the same page now.If by educating you mean explaining;then I agree.Hussein might explain why his painting was not meant to offend,alternatively he may realize how and to what degree its offensive, and he may decide its not worth it.It should work both ways. I have no stake in whatever is decided,but as Kshmendra has mentioned,the emphasis should be on understanding and respecting the other,not educating them. --- On Tue, 9/2/08, Yousuf wrote: > From: Yousuf > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" , rahul_capri at yahoo.com > Cc: "Sarai list" > Date: Tuesday, September 2, 2008, 11:03 AM > Dear Rahul > Why are you so scared of the word "education", > and why are you seeing it in such limited terms. If you look > at my last mail, I agreed that your solution #3 is good and > I'd be happy if it works. But I emphasized about > dialogue as part of the education. Don't you think > dialogue and communication between the two conflicting > parties would be an integral part of even your solution? > > What would you have to say about a counselor/psychiatrist > who tries to resolve conflicts say between two spouses. > His/her main role is to (a) know each side's story, and > then (b) inform each spouse about the other's problem > which was actually missing between them due to long gaps of > non-communication. Most conflicts in the family or society > occur because of the distance we create between two parties > - we fear each other, imagine all sorts of strange notions > about each other and strengthen the hatred about each other. > If only we talked, we could have realized that much of our > fears were baseless. > > Hence I am simply talking about creating bridges between > two parties through communication. Why can't we for > instance have a meeting/workshop between Hussain and the > religious fanatics where they tell each other's story > and try to explain why each party needs to be sensitive to > others' feelings. I know this will not entirely remove > either party's deep prejudices, and may lead to further > flaring up, but some moderation may also happen. But I would > again emphasize that those thoughts and ideas of both sides > which are required for the dialogue should at least be > available for everyone to see and understand. For instance, > we only get to see a lot of hate-propaganda from the > religious fanatics against the artist, but never see any > effort from Hussain or the art fraternity to explain what > this art is all about, and why he makes what he makes. The > artist thinks that he/she doesn't need to explain > anything. > > I am sorry, but I don't follow terms like reductionism, > teleology, deontology, so maybe I am sounding a bit rigid to > you. > > Yousuf > > --- On Tue, 9/2/08, Rahul Asthana > wrote: > > > From: Rahul Asthana > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and > Transgressions > > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > , ysaeed7 at yahoo.com > > Cc: "Sarai list" > > > Date: Tuesday, September 2, 2008, 2:01 AM > > Dear Yousuf, > > Your argument is what I call reductionist (from > > dictionary.com=2.the practice of simplifying a complex > idea, > > issue, condition, or the like, esp. to the point of > > minimizing, obscuring, or distorting it.). > > When you talk about "millions of issues in our > society > > which people used to take with orthodox > attitude",you > > are basically creating a straw man.Many orthodox > practices > > have to be given up;we have no difference on that. > > When two deontologies collide,we have to present a > > teleological argument in favor of one or the other.In > other > > words,when two value frameworks reach conflicting > position > > on an issue,we have two ways we can approach the > > conflict.The one who favors one value framework should > > present a comparison of the two frameworks in terms of > > social cost-benefit,or,The one who favors one value > > framework tries to educate the other one to their > system > > just because its "better".Do you see the > > difference between the two? > > Now, in an engagement of two groups on perceived > social > > cost-benefit,there will be conflicts.Its hard to > imagine how > > two groups will have same perception of social > > cost-benefit.But at least we would be trying to > resolve > > issues within a teleological framework which is a lot > better > > than "my way is better than your way and you have > to be > > educated to my way". > > > > Regards > > Rahul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > gate social cost-benefit,and not on the basis of what > one > > group thinks is right. > > > > --- On Mon, 9/1/08, Yousuf > wrote: > > > > > From: Yousuf > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and > > Transgressions > > > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > > , rahul_capri at yahoo.com > > > Cc: "Sarai list" > > > > > Date: Monday, September 1, 2008, 9:12 AM > > > Dear Rahul > > > I understand your logic, but I think your > alternative > > no.3 > > > is too idealized and utopian to achieve, although > I > > would > > > love if it works. Also, it may apply only to some > > > situations, not all. For instance, if a group of > > people > > > thinks that women are inferior and should remain > > inside > > > homes, or that we should ruin the environment by > > cutting > > > trees, wasting water and fuel, would you allow > them to > > > believe and act on this? You may call it my > > condescending > > > attitude, but why is it that we have managed to > bring > > an > > > awareness and "reform" today about so > many > > > millions of issues in our society which people > used to > > take > > > with orthodox attitude. I am talking about gender > > equality, > > > environment, education, health issues (although > it is > > still > > > not enough). Nobody is born with politically > correct > > genes - > > > we all acquire things as we grow. So what's > the > > big deal > > > for instance about having arts appreciation as > part of > > the > > > school curriculum or TV programmes. Should we > allow > > our > > > mainstream media to remain condescending then? > Why is > > > television changing the attitude of people - why > is > > our > > > society becoming more consumerist and aggressive > and > > > prejudiced? > > > Look my condescending solution doesn't > involve > > simply > > > education - I am talking about dialogue and > awareness, > > and > > > not talking down somebody's throat which the > TV > > does > > > today. > > > > > > Yousuf > > > > > > --- On Sun, 8/31/08, Rahul Asthana > > > wrote: > > > > > > > From: Rahul Asthana > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and > > > Transgressions > > > > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > > > , ysaeed7 at yahoo.com > > > > Cc: "Sarai list" > > > > > > > Date: Sunday, August 31, 2008, 11:54 PM > > > > Yousuf, > > > > > > > > I think i failed in getting my point > across.No > > amount > > > of > > > > "education" would make > Hussein's > > art > > > > appreciated by some,and those who are > offended by > > > > Hussein's art are no less > > "educated" > > > than you > > > > or me. > > > > Unless you get rid of your condescension > about > > > educating > > > > people about what they should or > shouldn't > > get > > > offended > > > > by,any discussion about solution to > conflicts > > like > > > this is a > > > > non-starter. > > > > > > > > I am going to make one last try though. > > > > > > > > Say there are two groups A and B,with > different > > value > > > > systems.A is offended by an act X and B is > > > not,apparently > > > > due to their different value systems. B > > encourages X > > > and > > > > this increases tensions in a society where A > and > > B > > > live > > > > together.Lets see what are the possible > > solutions. > > > > > > > > 1.Both A and B tell each other to go take a > hike > > and > > > they > > > > would do according to how they feel fit. > > > > 2.Both A and B are sure that their value > systems > > are > > > > superior and they try to convert each other > to > > their > > > own > > > > view points through dialog etc. > > > > 3.Both A and B recognize that there are > > irreconcilable > > > > differences in their world views.They also > > recognize > > > that > > > > they would respect the differences and try > to > > honor > > > them to > > > > the extent possible while also trying to > achieve > > their > > > own > > > > goals through whatever means possible. > > > > > > > > If liberal fanatics like you will keep on > > engaging in > > > > #2,(which in my opinion is even worse than > #1 > > because > > > #1 > > > > does not involve condescension) that you are > > doing > > > right > > > > now,you will always enable religious > fanatics > > from the > > > other > > > > side who will try to convert you to their > view > > > point.Why is > > > > their stand less valid than yours? > > > > If you engage in #3 ,you will enable > moderates > > from > > > the > > > > other side who will listen to you if you > listen > > to > > > them. > > > > The big leap of understanding that you need > to > > make is > > > that > > > > there can be two internally consistent value > > systems > > > which > > > > will lead to opposing positions on many > > issues,and > > > both > > > > these value systems are equally valid. > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > Rahul > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 8/31/08, Yousuf > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: Yousuf > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life > and > > > > Transgressions > > > > > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > > > > , > rahul_capri at yahoo.com > > > > > Cc: "Sarai list" > > > > > > > > > Date: Sunday, August 31, 2008, 9:40 AM > > > > > When I mention education, I primarily > > include > > > media in > > > > it. > > > > > But the media is careless and works > only on > > the > > > > diktats of > > > > > industry and politicians. So the prime > > > responsibility > > > > (of > > > > > making sure that their art is > appreciated) > > falls > > > on > > > > the arts > > > > > fraternity itself. At least until we > find a > > > better > > > > solution. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 8/30/08, Rahul Asthana > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > From: Rahul Asthana > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of > Life > > and > > > > > Transgressions > > > > > > To: "Shuddhabrata > Sengupta" > > > > > , > ysaeed7 at yahoo.com > > > > > > Cc: "Sarai list" > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Saturday, August 30, 2008, > 9:58 > > PM > > > > > > "They have not been educated > to > > > appreciate > > > > the > > > > > nuances > > > > > > of the medium or the > message." > > > > > > Yousuf, I am sorry but that's > > > > condescending.By the > > > > > same > > > > > > token a religious person can say > that > > the > > > artist > > > > has > > > > > not > > > > > > been taught the nuances of > religious > > > > sensibilities.My > > > > > point > > > > > > is that if two groups having > different > > > values > > > > have to > > > > > > coexist in a society,they have to > be > > > tolerant > > > > towards > > > > > each > > > > > > other. > > > > > > I do not advocate any limit to the > > freedom > > > of > > > > > > expression,but there should not be > > complete > > > > > callousness > > > > > > towards the feelings of > groups.Painters > > like > > > > Hussein > > > > > and > > > > > > other heretics would always keep > > producing > > > works > > > > that > > > > > would > > > > > > offend,and perhaps thats necessary > > too;but > > > if > > > > some of > > > > > the > > > > > > people in the media,and I do not > mean > > the > > > media > > > > which > > > > > > actually represents these groups, > can > > > understand > > > > and > > > > > voice > > > > > > their feelings,then emotions would > > probably > > > not > > > > flare > > > > > up to > > > > > > that extent. > > > > > > That is the middle way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 8/30/08, Yousuf > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Yousuf > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] > Ways of > > Life > > > and > > > > > > Transgressions > > > > > > > To: "Shuddhabrata > > Sengupta" > > > > > > , > > > rahul_capri at yahoo.com > > > > > > > Cc: "Sarai list" > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Saturday, August 30, > 2008, > > 9:31 > > > PM > > > > > > > Dear Rahul > > > > > > > I had difficulty following > your > > first > > > > sentence > > > > > (and a > > > > > > few > > > > > > > others), but yes, to put it > in > > simple > > > > language, > > > > > people > > > > > > have > > > > > > > been offended by > Hussain's > > > paintings, > > > > and > > > > > they are > > > > > > not > > > > > > > always at fault. They have > not > > been > > > educated > > > > to > > > > > > appreciate > > > > > > > the nuances of the medium or > the > > > message. > > > > And the > > > > > art > > > > > > > fraternity doesn't have > the > > urge to > > > go > > > > to the > > > > > > people and > > > > > > > explain what they do and why > they > > do. > > > The > > > > > politician > > > > > > of > > > > > > > course is too happy to cash > in on > > the > > > > ignorance > > > > > of the > > > > > > > public. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Incidentally, countless > > > > provocative/blasphemous > > > > > art or > > > > > > > statements have been made in > the > > past > > > but > > > > not all > > > > > of > > > > > > them > > > > > > > led to a public outcry. > Almost all > > > known > > > > cases > > > > > where a > > > > > > piece > > > > > > > of art/literature has led to > > violence, > > > are > > > > those > > > > > where > > > > > > > somebody (or some political > party) > > used > > > them > > > > to > > > > > spread > > > > > > the > > > > > > > flames. In most cases, the > > protesters > > > > haven't > > > > > seen > > > > > > or > > > > > > > read what they have been > > protesting > > > against. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So, should the artists make > such > >> provocative > > > > > works > > > > > > only for > > > > > > > themselves or their closest > > friends, > > > and > > > > never > > > > > allow > > > > > > them to > > > > > > > go public. Or should they > (and > > their > > > > > institutions) > > > > > > create an > > > > > > > atmosphere of awareness where > the > > > public can > > > > > > appreciate > > > > > > > their art and not tear it > apart? I > > > don't > > > > find > > > > > a > > > > > > third > > > > > > > alternative. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yousuf > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 8/30/08, Rahul > Asthana > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Rahul Asthana > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: > [Reader-list] > > Ways of > > > Life > > > > and > > > > > > > Transgressions > > > > > > > > To: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com, > > > > "Shuddhabrata > > > > > > > Sengupta" > > > > > > > > > > > Cc: "Sarai > list" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Saturday, August > 30, > > 2008, > > > 8:42 > > > > PM > > > > > > > > Dear Yousuf, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think the classic > liberal > > stand > > > of > > > > > reductionist > > > > > > > > extrapolation,in which > one > > > develops > > > > certain > > > > > set > > > > > > of > > > > > > > canonical > > > > > > > > principles and expects > them > > to > > > govern > > > > all > > > > > > discourse on > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > certain topic, is not > > necessarily > > > > > philosophically > > > > > > > incorrect > > > > > > > > from their point of > view,but > > > > insufficient > > > > > and > > > > > > improper > > > > > > > if we > > > > > > > > want to live in a > tolerant > > liberal > > > > society.I > > > > > will > > > > > > try > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > elaborate: > > > > > > > > The point is not that > Hussein > > as a > > > > Muslim > > > > > can > > > > > > paint > > > > > > > Hindu > > > > > > > > deities,nude or > otherwise or > > > whether > > > > his > > > > > > intention was > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > insult,or not.The point > is > > also > > > not > > > > that the > > > > > his > > > > > > > paintings > > > > > > > > can be artistic and > break new > > > grounds > > > > of > > > > > > expression > > > > > > > > etc.Neither is it the > point > > that > > > he > > > > should > > > > > have > > > > > > the > > > > > > > freedom > > > > > > > > of expression to paint > > whatever he > > > > wants.The > > > > > > point is > > > > > > > also > > > > > > > > not that the people who > > attacked > > > him > > > > were > > > > > wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The point that I have > been > > trying > > > to > > > > make is > > > > > that > > > > > > all > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > above things are > true;but > > still a > > > > painting > > > > > that > > > > > > he has > > > > > > > made > > > > > > > > can be offensive to many > > > people.Now,the > > > > > classic > > > > > > > reductionist > > > > > > > > line here is > that,offense is > > > > > > subjective.Obviously,we > > > > > > > > can't be bothered > about > > every > > > > person who > > > > > > takes > > > > > > > offense > > > > > > > > at any random stuff, can > > we?To > > > that I > > > > would > > > > > say, > > > > > > using > > > > > > > our > > > > > > > > own personal > > judgment,depending > > > upon > > > > our > > > > > > interactions > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > people, we can make out > most > > of > > > the > > > > times > > > > > if > > > > > > > something is > > > > > > > > truly offensive to a > large > > group > > > of > > > > people > > > > > or > > > > > > not.If > > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > can't,we should talk > to > > > > people.IMHO,I > > > > > > don't > > > > > > > think I > > > > > > > > should take the easy way > out > > of > > > hiding > > > > > behind the > > > > > > > principles > > > > > > > > of freedom of expression > and > > > visual > > > > > metaphors > > > > > > etc.We > > > > > > > should > > > > > > > > always support freedom > of > > > > expression,but if > > > > > we > > > > > > can > > > > > > > surmise > > > > > > > > that a particular act of > art > > was > > > > done,when > > > > > it was > > > > > > > probably > > > > > > > > apparent that it would > hurt > > the > > > > > sensibilities of > > > > > > a > > > > > > > large > > > > > > > > group of people,we > should > > call it > > > for > > > > > "bad > > > > > > > taste". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we have respect for > and > > engage > > > in > > > > dialog > > > > > with > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > moderates of groups we > may > > not > > > have to > > > > deal > > > > > with > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > extremists. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Shuddha, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think you mentioned > earlier > > how > > > > religious > > > > > > people > > > > > > > offend > > > > > > > > the sensitivities of > > > atheists.Could you > > > > > please > > > > > > > elaborate? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > Rahul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 8/30/08, > > Shuddhabrata > > > > Sengupta > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Shuddhabrata > > Sengupta > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: > > [Reader-list] > > > Ways of > > > > Life > > > > > and > > > > > > > > Transgressions > > > > > > > > > To: > ysaeed7 at yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > Cc: "Sarai > > list" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Saturday, > August > > 30, > > > 2008, > > > > 2:44 > > > > > AM > > > > > > > > > Dear Yousuf, dear > all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > thank you very > much, > > Yousuf > > > for > > > > your > > > > > mail. I > > > > > > > really > > > > > > > > > appreciate your > > > > > > > > > point of drawing > > attention to > > > the > > > > > available > > > > > > > > vocabularies of > > > > > > > > > visual > > > > > > > > > representation and > the > > way in > > > > which > > > > > they > > > > > > > determine or > > > > > > > > > influence the > > > > > > > > > universe of visual > > > > repsesentatiation, > > > > > if > > > > > > only to > > > > > > > > underline > > > > > > > > > the fact > > > > > > > > > that no visual > artist is > > ever > > > > divorced > > > > > from > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > context tat > > > > > > > > > they are > > > > > > > > > born into. I have > > nowhere > > > written > > > > > about why > > > > > > > Husain > > > > > > > > does > > > > > > > > > not choose > > > > > > > > > to represent themes > from > > the > > > > Islamic > > > > > canon, > > > > > > and I > > > > > > > > totally > > > > > > > > > agree with > > > > > > > > > you that he does > not do > > so > > > because > > > > they > > > > > are > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > available > > > > > > > > > to him in > > > > > > > > > his cultural miieu, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for apparently > > > transgressive > > > > cases > > > > > like > > > > > > > Husain or > > > > > > > > Dillu > > > > > > > > > Ram > > > > > > > > > Kausari, I cannnot > see > > why > > > they > > > > should > > > > > not b > > > > > > > > celebrated. > > > > > > > > > Hindus > > > > > > > > > should honour > Husain and > > > Muslims > > > > should > > > > > > honour > > > > > > > Dillu > > > > > > > > Ram. > > > > > > > > > In this way > > > > > > > > > they would ensure > that > > acts > > > of > > > > > 'road > > > > > > > crossing' > > > > > > > > need > > > > > > > > > not necessarily > > > > > > > > > end in lethal > accidents, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > warm regards, and > hoping > > for > > > many > > > > more > > > > > road > > > > > > > crossings, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 29-Aug-08, at > 8:25 > > PM, > > > Yousuf > > > > Saeed > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Shuddha, > > others > > > > > > > > > > I really > appreciate > > your > > > > > highlighting > > > > > > of the > > > > > > > fact > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > Hussain's > > > > > > > > > > intention may > not > > be of > > > > insulting > > > > > the > > > > > > Hindus > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > drawing the deities > > > > > > > > > > > in the nude or > > > otherwise. I > > > > am not > > > > > a > > > > > > > defender of > > > > > > > > > Hussain, but would > > > > > > > > > > > like to put > across > > a few > > > > points. > > > > > Many > > > > > > people > > > > > > > (on > > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > list and > > > > > > > > > > elsewhere) > have > > pointed > > > out > > > > that > > > > > > Hussain > > > > > > > never > > > > > > > > drew > > > > > > > > > any Muslim > > > > > > > > > > character > (such as > > the > > > > Prophet) in > > > > > this > > > > > > > manner, > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > therefore his > > > > > > > > > > intention must > be > > to > > > insult > > > > the > > > > > Hindus. > > > > > > They > > > > > > > also > > > > > > > > say > > > > > > > > > that such an > > > > > > > > > > act by any > artist > > in a > > > Muslim > > > > > country > > > > > > (like > > > > > > > Saudi > > > > > > > > > Arabia) would > > > > > > > > > > result in > death > > penalty, > > > and > > > > so > > > > > on. But > > > > > > > maybe > > > > > > > > Hussain > > > > > > > > > did not draw > > > > > > > > > > an Islamic > > character in > > > an > > > > > > > "immodest" > > > > > > > > > posture simply > because > > such > > > > > > > > > > an image or > icon > > > doesn’t > > > > exist > > > > > in the > > > > > > > > Islam's > > > > > > > > > visual cultural > > > > > > > > > > tradition. If > he > > does > > > it, > > > > then > > > > > that > > > > > > would be > > > > > > > > > deliberately > > > > > > > > > > provocative > > (although I > > > am > > > > not > > > > > saying > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > shouldn't > > > > > > > > > be done). But he > > > > > > > > > > could draw a > Hindu > > deity > > > in > > > > the > > > > > nude > > > > > > because > > > > > > > such > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > tradition > > > > > > > > > > exists in our > > Indian > > > visual > > > > > culture. I > > > > > > doubt > > > > > > > if > > > > > > > > he > > > > > > > > > avoids > > > > > > > > > > the depiction > of > > Muslim > > > > themes > > > > > because > > > > > > he > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > scared > > > > > > > > > of the > > > > > > > > > > Islamists. > Maybe he > > > simply > > > > > can't > > > > > > relate > > > > > > > to it > > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > an Indian. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If I as an > artist > > cannot > > > > express > > > > > my > > > > > > certain > > > > > > > > feelings > > > > > > > > > in the > > > > > > > > > > language that > has > > been > > > taught > > > > to > > > > > be me > > > > > > by my > > > > > > > > parents, > > > > > > > > > and I > > > > > > > > > > suddenly > discover a > > new > > > > language > > > > > that > > > > > > allows > > > > > > > me > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > express that > > > > > > > > > > peculiar > feeling in > > a > > > much > > > > better > > > > > way > > > > > > than > > > > > > > what > > > > > > > > my > > > > > > > > > mother tongue > > > > > > > > > > did, I would > be > > happy to > > > use > > > > the > > > > > new > > > > > > > language. > > > > > > > > There > > > > > > > > > are thousands > > > > > > > > > > of poets and > > artists who > > > > found a > > > > > new > > > > > > way of > > > > > > > > expression > > > > > > > > > in a > > > > > > > > > > language which > > every one > > > in > > > > their > > > > > midst > > > > > > had > > > > > > > found > > > > > > > > > > "inferior" – > > I am > > > > > > > > > > > > > talking for > example > > of > > > the > > > > > tradition of > > > > > > > Persian > > > > > > > > poets > > > > > > > > > of South Asia > > > > > > > > > > who also wrote > > verses in > > > > Hindi or > > > > > > Hinduvi. > > > > > > > While > > > > > > > > poets > > > > > > > > > such as > > > > > > > > > > Masud Sa'd > > Salman, > > > Amir > > > > > Khusrau, > > > > > > > Abdurrahim > > > > > > > > > Khane-khana, > Ghalib, or > > > > > > > > > > > > Iqbal became > famous > > for > > > their > > > > > exquisite > > > > > > > verse in > > > > > > > > > Persian, their > > > > > > > > > > heart pours > out > > better > > > in > > > > their > > > > > > Hinduvi, > > > > > > > Urdu or > > > > > > > > Braj > > > > > > > > > poetry where > > > > > > > > > > they can come > down > > to > > > the > > > > earth > > > > > from > > > > > > the > > > > > > > lofty > > > > > > > > royal > > > > > > > > > palaces. We > > > > > > > > > > often say, > > "Unki > > > Hindi > > > > > shayeri > > > > > > mein > > > > > > > mitti ki > > > > > > > > > khushbu aati > hai" > > (one > > > > > > > > > > can smell the > earth > > in > > > their > > > > > vernacular > > > > > > > poetry). > > > > > > > > And I > > > > > > > > > > think Hussain > is > > no > > > > different > > > > > from > > > > > > them. He > > > > > > > > cannot > > > > > > > > > draw an Islamic > > > > > > > > > > character in > the > > nude > > > because > > > > > it's > > > > > > > probably > > > > > > > > not in > > > > > > > > > his palette, or > > > > > > > > > > doesn't > touch > > his > > > heart. > > > > (And > > > > > we > > > > > > cannot > > > > > > > force > > > > > > > > him > > > > > > > > > to do it to > > > > > > > > > > become more > > politically > > > > correct). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You may say > that a > > lot > > > of > > > > > > semi-pornographic > > > > > > > > scenes > > > > > > > > > have been drawn > > > > > > > > > > in Mughal or > > Persian > > > > miniatures, > > > > > and he > > > > > > > could > > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > followed that. > > > > > > > > > > But that's > not > > the > > > point. > > > > > Hindu > > > > > > deities > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > flexible enough for > us > > > > > > > > > > to turn them > around > > the > > > way > > > > we > > > > > wish, to > > > > > > > express a > > > > > > > > > certain feeling > > > > > > > > > > that cannot be > > expressed > > > any > > > > other > > > > > way. > > > > > > So > > > > > > > why > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > appreciate and > > > > > > > > > > celebrate that > > fact. (I > > > know > > > > such > > > > > a > > > > > > > statement > > > > > > > > from me > > > > > > > > > might raise > > > > > > > > > > some > eyebrows). I > > maybe > > > a > > > > Muslim > > > > > but I > > > > > > > appreciate > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > fact that you > > > > > > > > > > can literally > play > > with > > > many > > > > Hindu > > > > > > deities. > > > > > > > Just > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > other day I > > > > > > > > > > heard Pandit > Jasraj > > sing > > > a > > > > khayal > > > > > in > > > > > > which > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > lyrics > > > > > > > > > repeatedly > > > > > > > > > > referred to > Krishna > > as a > > > chor > > > > > (thief). > > > > > > Does > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > insult a Hindu? Or > > > > > > > > > > > would it > insult a > > Hindu > > > if > > > > this > > > > > khayal > > > > > > was > > > > > > > sung > > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > Ustad Amir Khan? > > > > > > > > > > (Incidentally, > a > > large > > > number > > > > of > > > > > > traditional > > > > > > > > Hindu > > > > > > > > > devotional > > > > > > > > > > lyrics sung in > > classical > > > > music > > > > > have > > > > > > reached > > > > > > > us > > > > > > > > via > > > > > > > > > Muslim gharana > > > > > > > > > > musicians, and > much > > of > > > > devotional > > > > > Hindu > > > > > > > visual > > > > > > > > > mythology has come > > > > > > > > > > > to us via > patwa > >artists > > > of > > > > Bengal > > > > > who > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > all Muslim. > Can > > > M.F.Hussain > > > > be > > > > > > detached > > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > continuity?) > > > > > > > > > > Much of the > popular > > > calendar > > > > and > > > > > poster > > > > > > art > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > 20th > > > > > > > > > century showing > > > > > > > > > > Hindu deities > was > > drawn > > > by an > > > > > artist > > > > > > called > > > > > > > Hasan > > > > > > > > Raza > > > > > > > > > Raja of > > > > > > > > > > Meerut. And > the > > manner > > > in > > > > which > > > > > most > > > > > > Hindu > > > > > > > > deities are > > > > > > > > > visualized > > > > > > > > > > today comes > from > > the > > > > pioneering > > > > > work of > > > > > > Raja > > > > > > > Ravi > > > > > > > > > Varma who was > > > > > > > > > > clearly > inspired by > > > western > > > > style > > > > > of > > > > > > art > > > > > > > where > > > > > > > > human > > > > > > > > > models were > > > > > > > > > > used to > visualize > > the > > > gods > > > > and > > > > > > goddesses. > > > > > > > So, > > > > > > > > does all > > > > > > > > > this insult > > > > > > > > > > the Hindus? > And > > what is > > > the > > > > > > > "original" > > > > > > > > Hindu > > > > > > > > > way of imagining > the > > > > > > > > > > deities any > way? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I liked your > > quoting > > > from > > > > Kausari > > > > > who > > > > > > is > > > > > > > among > > > > > > > > many > > > > > > > > > Hindu poets who > > > > > > > > > > have > > written/announced > > > their > > > > > emotive > > > > > > > affiliation > > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > Prophet > > > > > > > > > > Mohammad in > the > > same way > > > as > > > > say > > > > > with > > > > > > > Krishna. I > > > > > > > > doubt > > > > > > > > > if such > > > > > > > > > > actions in the > past > > may > > > have > > > > met > > > > > with > > > > > > much > > > > > > > > resistance > > > > > > > > > (as you have > > > > > > > > > > mentioned) – > such > > > examples > > > > were > > > > > a > > > > > > norm. > > > > > > > There > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > many Hindu poets > > > > > > > > > > who have > written > > > marsiyas > > > > full of > > > > > > pathos for > > > > > > > Imam > > > > > > > > > Hussain's > > > > > > > > > > martyrdom, and > many > > > Muslim > > > > poets > > > > > who > > > > > > > composed > > > > > > > > adorable > > > > > > > > > songs for > > > > > > > > > > Krishna. I > > don't > > > think it > > > > was > > > > > too > > > > > > hard > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > cross > > > > > > > > > the road in those > > > > > > > > > > days. So, why > are > > we > > > busy > > > > throwing > > > > > > stones > > > > > > > onto > > > > > > > > each > > > > > > > > > other from the > > > > > > > > > > two sides of a > > road? I > > > could > > > > > imagine > > > > > > that at > > > > > > > > least an > > > > > > > > > online forum > > > > > > > > > > like Sarai > could > > act > > > like a > > > > subway > > > > > or a > > > > > > > walk-over > > > > > > > > > bridge to cross > > > > > > > > > > the busy > highway. > > But > > > > currently it > > > > > > seems > > > > > > > more > > > > > > > > like a > > > > > > > > > road-block. > > > > > > > > > > And we are all > > paying > > > the > > > > toll. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yousuf > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, > > 8/29/08, > > > > Shuddhabrata > > > > > > Sengupta > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> From: > > Shuddhabrata > > > > Sengupta > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Subject: > > > [Reader-list] > > > > Ways of > > > > > Life > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > Transgressions > > > > > > > > > >> To: > "Sarai > > > > list" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Date: > Friday, > > August > > > 29, > > > > 2008, > > > > > 1:31 > > > > > > PM > > > > > > > > > >> Dear All, > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> I have > been > > > intrigued by > > > > the > > > > > > exchange on > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > list > > > > > > > > > of late > > > > > > > > > >> that has > > > > > > > > > >> preferred > to > > > jettison the > > > > term > > > > > > > > 'religion' > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > >> prefer in > its > > stead > > > the > > > > > > > > > >> > euphimistic > > phrase - > > > > 'ways > > > > > of > > > > > > > life'. > > > > > > > > I am > > > > > > > > > referring > > > > > > > > > >> to the > exchange > > > > > > > > > >> between > > Chanchal > > > Malviya > > > > and > > > > > > Jeebesh > > > > > > > Bagchi, > > > > > > > > > arising out of > > > > > > > > > >> the > > > > > > > > > >> heated > > > correspondence on > > > > the > > > > > > disruption > > > > > > > of a > > > > > > > > small > > > > > > > > > >> exhibition > > devoted > > > > > > > > > >> to > M.F.Husain. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> i am quite > > convinced > > > that > > > > the > > > > > term > > > > > > > > > 'religion' > > > > > > > > > >> which > derives > > from > > > the > > > > > > > > > >> latin root > of > > the > > > word > > > > religio > > > > > > (bond) > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > religare > > > > > > > > > (the > > > > > > > > > >> verb form > of > > > > > > > > > >> 'to > > bind') > > > > remains for > > > > > me a > > > > > > > useful > > > > > > > > word to > > > > > > > > > name the > > > > > > > > > >> act of > > committing > > > > > > > > > >> oneself in > any > > form. > > > In > > > > this > > > > > sense, > > > > > > > atheists > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > agnostics > > > > > > > > > >> are just > > > > > > > > > >> as > religious > > (in > > > their > > > > > commitment > > > > > > to > > > > > > > doubt) > > > > > > > > as are > > > > > > > > > those > > > > > > > > > >> blessed > with > > > > > > > > > >> faith. I > would > > > describe > > > > my > > > > > > religious > > > > > > > > commitment as > > > > > > > > > >> > agnosticism - a > > > > > > > > > >> commitment > to > > doubt > > > > > everything, > > > > > > > (including > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > value of > > > > > > > > > >> doubt) and > a > > > > > > > > > >> certainty > that > > we > > > cannot > > > > speak > > > > > > certainly > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > anything at > > > > > > > > > >> all, > because > > > > > > > > > >> there are > > always > > > > > counterfactuals, > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > hitherto > > > > > > > > > unimagined, > > > > > > > > > >> or unknown > > > > > > > > > >> > possibilities, > > that > > > goad > > > > us on > > > > > to > > > > > > yet > > > > > > > newer > > > > > > > > > possibilities, > > > > > > > > > >> or to > > > > > > > > > >> return to > some > > very > > > old > > > > ones. > > > > > This > > > > > > is > > > > > > > just to > > > > > > > > say > > > > > > > > > that it > > > > > > > > > >> would be a > > > > > > > > > >> mistake to > > assume, > > > as is > > > > often > > > > > done > > > > > > with > > > > > > > some > > > > > > > > > arrogance on > > > > > > > > > >> the part > > > > > > > > > >> of the > more > > > pronouncedly > > > > > > > 'faithful', > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > atheists > > > > > > > > > >> and > agnostics > > have > > > > > > > > > >> no > > > 'spiritual' > > > > quests. > > > > > They > > > > > > do, > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > dont, just > > > > > > > > > >> as those > who > > are > > > > > > > > > >> > ostentatiously > > > > > 'religious' > > > > > > do, > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > dont, > > > > > > > > > or do only > > > > > > > > > >> in as much > as > > it > > > > > > > > > >> allows > them to > > burn > > > a few > > > > > churches > > > > > > as > > > > > > > they go > > > > > > > > > questing. If > > > > > > > > > >> Hindu > > > > > > > > > >> > fundamentalists > > have > > > > chosen to > > > > > > renounce > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > ties > > > > > > > > > that bind > > > > > > > > > >> (religio) > > > > > > > > > >> them to > life, > > who > > > would I > > > > be > > > > > to > > > > > > object, > > > > > > > > because, I > > > > > > > > > am not a > > > > > > > > > >> Hindu. > > > > > > > > > >> But I have > no > > > quarrel > > > > with the > > > > > term > > > > > > > 'ways > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > life'. > > > > > > > > > >> The more > words > > we > > > > > > > > > >> have, the > > better. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> This > discussion > > > arose out > > > > of a > > > > > rage > > > > > > felt > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > some > > > > > > > > > that a > > > > > > > > > >> group of > > > > > > > > > >> zealots > had > > broken > > > and > > > > > disrupted an > > > > > > > > exhibition > > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > >> featured > some > > > > > > > > > >> images of > and > > by > > > Husain, > > > > and > > > > > the > > > > > > counter > > > > > > > rage > > > > > > > > felt > > > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > >> others > that the > > > > > > > > > >> zealots > had no > > right > > > to > > > > be > > > > > > criticised > > > > > > > because > > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > were > > > > > > > > > >> acting to > > > > > > > > > >> protect > the > > honour > > > of the > > > > > Hindu > > > > > > deities > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > felt > > > > > > > > > >> Husain had > > > > > > > > > >> insulted. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> The second > case > > is > > > as > > > > follows > > > > > - > > > > > > what > > > > > > > right > > > > > > > > has > > > > > > > > > Husain, a > > > > > > > > > >> Muslim to > > > > > > > > > >> insult > Hindu > > deities > > > by > > > > > portraying > > > > > > them > > > > > > > in a > > > > > > > > > manner that is > > > > > > > > > >> offensive > > > > > > > > > >> to the > > sentiments of > > > many > > > > > Hindus. > > > > > > > > (Husain's > > > > > > > > > >> > motivations, or > > the > > > > > > > > > >> aesthetic > merit > > of > > > his > > > > images > > > > > are > > > > > > not > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > issue > > > > > > > > > here, what > > > > > > > > > >> is at > > > > > > > > > >> issue is > the > > insult > > > seen > > > > to > > > > > have > > > > > > > occurred > > > > > > > > when a > > > > > > > > > non-Hindu > > > > > > > > > >> > > 'touches' > > > > > > > > > >> a sacred > Hindu > > icon > > > with > > > > his > > > > > > > > 'insulting' > > > > > > > > > >> > imagination. > > Those > > > so > > > > > > > > > >> enraged, > also > > throw > > > the > > > > > following > > > > > > > challenge, > > > > > > > > has > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > >> opposite > ever > > > > > > > > > >> occurred? > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> I am not > here > > to > > > make a > > > > case > > > > > for > > > > > > Husain. > > > > > > > (As > > > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > > have said > > > > > > > > > >> before I > do > > > > > > > > > >> not have a > very > > high > > > > opinion > > > > > of his > > > > > > work > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > an > > > > > > > > > artist). I > > > > > > > > > >> am here to > > > > > > > > > >> make a > case for > > what > > > is > > > > > considered > > > > > > to be > > > > > > > > > transgression. No > > > > > > > > > >> one can be > > > > > > > > > >> sure when > they > > have > > > > > transgressed. > > > > > > > Because > > > > > > > > > transgression can > > > > > > > > > >> be seen > > > > > > > > > >> to occur > even > > when > > > the > > > > motives > > > > > of > > > > > > the > > > > > > > person > > > > > > > > > concerned are > > > > > > > > > >> far from > > > > > > > > > >> > transgression. > > > Husain can > > > > say > > > > > in > > > > > > his > > > > > > > defence, > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > indeed > > > > > > > > > >> has on > > > > > > > > > >> occasion > said > > that > > > his > > > > > paintings > > > > > > are an > > > > > > > index > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > his > > > > > > > > > >> > appreciation of > > > > > > > > > >> Indic > culture > > and > > > its > > > > > diversity of > > > > > > > > expressions, of > > > > > > > > > his > > > > > > > > > >> closeness > > > > > > > > > >> (since > early > > > childhood) > > > > to > > > > > forms of > > > > > > > iconic > > > > > > > > imagery > > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > >> popular > > Hinduism. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> Here his > intent > > is > > > > clearly not > > > > > to > > > > > > > insult, on > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > contrary, > > > > > > > > > >> it is to > > > > > > > > > >> declare > his > > > appreciation > > > > for > > > > > the > > > > > > beauty > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > iconography > > > > > > > > > >> of popular > > > > > > > > > >> Hinduism, > a > > charge > > > for > > > > which > > > > > he > > > > > > would be > > > > > > > > equally > > > > > > > > > hated by > > > > > > > > > >> both Hindu > > > > > > > > > >> as well as > > Muslim > > > > > fundamentalists. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> It has not > been > > > noticed > > > > that > > > > > no > > > > > > Muslim > > > > > > > > > fundamentalist or > > > > > > > > > >> even > Muslim > > > > > > > > > >> religious > > figure has > > > come > > > > out > > > > > in > > > > > > defence > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > Husain. They > > > > > > > > > >> are in > fact > > > > > > > > > >> in tacit > > agreement > > > with > > > > their > > > > > Hindu > > > > > > > peers. A > > > > > > > > > Muslim making > > > > > > > > > >> images, > > > > > > > > > >> and that > too of > > > Hindu > > > > > goddesses, > > > > > > because > > > > > > > he > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > drawn to > > > > > > > > > >> them, can > > > > > > > > > >> only be > seen as > > > blasphemy > > > > in > > > > > their > > > > > > eyes. > > > > > > > On > > > > > > > > this, > > > > > > > > > like on > > > > > > > > > >> so many > > > > > > > > > >> other > issues, > > Hindu > > > and > > > > Muslim > > > > > > > > fundamentalists are > > > > > > > > > in total > > > > > > > > > >> agreement. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> Let me > come now > > to > > > an > > > > > interesting > > > > > > > > counterfactual > > > > > > > > > argument. > > > > > > > > > >> I refer to > > > > > > > > > >> the life > an > > work of > > > a > > > > little > > > > > known > > > > > > late > > > > > > > > nineteenth > > > > > > > > > century > > > > > > > > > >> and early > > > > > > > > > >> twentieth > > century > > > Urdu > > > > poet of > > > > > > Delhi > > > > > > > called > > > > > > > > Dillu > > > > > > > > > Ram > > > > > > > > > >> Kausari. > Now as > > > > > > > > > >> his name > > suggests, > > > Dillu > > > > Ram > > > > > was a > > > > > > > Hindu. The > > > > > > > > > trouble is, > > > > > > > > > >> throughout > > > > > > > > > >> his life > he > > composed > > > > > deliriously > > > > > > > passionate > > > > > > > > > elegies > > > > > > > > > >> > (na'at) to > > the > > > > > > > > > >> Prophet > > Muhammad. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> One of his > > quatrains > > > went > > > > as > > > > > > follows > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> Kuch > ‘ishq e > > > Muhammad > > > > mein > > > > > nahin > > > > > > shart > > > > > > > e > > > > > > > > > Musulman! > > > > > > > > > >> Hai > Kausari > > Hindu > > > bhii > > > > > talabgaar e > > > > > > > Muhammad! > > > > > > > > > >> Allah re! > kyaa > > > raunaq e > > > > bazaar > > > > > e > > > > > > > Muhammad > > > > > > > > > >> Ke > Ma’bood e > > Jahan > > > bhi > > > > hai > > > > > > kharidaar e > > > > > > > > Muhammad! > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> Being a > Muslim > > is > > > not a > > > > > condition > > > > > > for > > > > > > > loving > > > > > > > > > Muhammad! > > > > > > > > > >> Kausari, > the > > Hindu, > > > is > > > > also a > > > > > > seeker of > > > > > > > > Muhammad! > > > > > > > > > >> By Allah! > How > > > delightful > > > > is > > > > > the > > > > > > bazaar > > >> > > > of > > > > > > > > Muhammad > > > > > > > > > >> For the > Lord of > > the > > > > Worlds is > > > > > also > > > > > > a > > > > > > > buyer of > > > > > > > > > Muhammad! > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> This kind > of > > > sentiment > > > > shocked > > > > > both > > > > > > > Hindus > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > Muslims. > > > > > > > > > >> Hindus, > > > > > > > > > >> because > how > > could a > > > Hindu > > > > sing > > > > > what > > > > > > > amounted > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > love songs > > > > > > > > > >> to a > > > > > > > > > >> Muslim > prophet, > > and > > > > Muslims, > > > > > for > > > > > > the > > > > > > > same > > > > > > > > reason. > > > > > > > > > Both felt > > > > > > > > > >> slighted > > > > > > > > > >> and > insulted by > > the > > > > > transgressive > > > > > > way in > > > > > > > > which the > > > > > > > > > >> > imagination of > > the > > > > > > > > > >> poet had > > > > 'touched' the > > > > > body > > > > > > of > > > > > > > what > > > > > > > > was > > > > > > > > > sacred for > > > > > > > > > >> one, and > not, > > for > > > > > > > > > >> the other. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> Another > poem, > > which > > > > proved to > > > > > be > > > > > > even > > > > > > > more > > > > > > > > > controversial, > > > > > > > > > >> went like > > > > > > > > > >> this - > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > Rahmatulilalamin kay > > > > Hashar > > > > > mein > > > > > > > maana’ > > > > > > > > khulay > > > > > > > > > >> Khalq > saari > > Shaafa e > > > Roz > > > > e > > > > > Jaza kay > > > > > > > saath hai > > > > > > > > > >> Laykay > Dillu > > Raam ko > > > > jannat > > > > > mein > > > > > > jab > > > > > > > Hazrat > > > > > > > > gaye > > > > > > > > > >> Ma’loom > huwa > > kay > > > Hindu > > > > bhi > > > > > > Mahboob e > > > > > > > Khuda > > > > > > > > kay > > > > > > > > > saath hai! > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> The > meaning of > > > “Mercy > > > > unto > > > > > the > > > > > > > Worlds” > > > > > > > > became > > > > > > > > > apparent > > > > > > > > > >> on > Judgement > > Day: > > > > > > > > > >> The whole > > creation > > > is > > > > with the > > > > > > > Intercessor of > > > > > > > > The > > > > > > > > > Day of > > > > > > > > > >> Acquittal > > > > > > > > > >> When the > > Prophet > > > took > > > > Dillu > > > > > Ram > > > > > > with him > > > > > > > into > > > > > > > > > Paradise > > > > > > > > > >> It was > known > > that > > > this > > > > Hindu > > > > > too is > > > > > > with > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > Beloved of > > > > > > > > > >> God! > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> This poem, > > > especially > > > > > scandalized > > > > > > Muslim > > > > > > > > > orthodoxy, because > > > > > > > > > >> it dared > > > > > > > > > >> to suggest > that > > the > > > > prophet > > > > > himself > > > > > > > would > > > > > > > > > intercede on > > > > > > > > > >> behalf of > an > > > > > > > > > >> unbeliever > on > > the > > > day of > > > > > judgement. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> It is > > interesting to > > > note > > > > that > > > > > > Dillu Ram > > > > > > > > never > > > > > > > > > became a > > > > > > > > > >> Muslim, at > > > > > > > > > >> least not > in > > his > > > > lifetime. An > > > > > > article in > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > interesting > > > > > > > > > >> web portal > > > > > > > > > >> Chowk > > > > > > > > > http://www.chowk.com/articles/12692 by > > > > > > > > one > > > > > > > > > Asif > > > > > > > > > >> Naqshbandi > says > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> "It > is > > also > > > said > > > > that > > > > > Dillu > > > > > > Ram, > > > > > > > > delirious > > > > > > > > > with his > > > > > > > > > >> love, > would > > > > > > > > > >> sometimes > stand > > in > > > the > > > > middle > > > > > of > > > > > > the > > > > > > > bazaar > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > Delhi, put > > > > > > > > > >> chains > > > > > > > > > >> around his > neck > > and > > > feet > > > > and > > > > > shout > > > > > > at > > > > > > > the top > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > his voice > > > > > > > > > >> to all > > > > > > > > > >> > passers-by, > > > “Muhammad! > > > > > Muhammad! > > > > > > > Muhammad! > > > > > > > > Yes! > > > > > > > > > Muhammad > > > > > > > > > >> is the > > > > > > > > > >> Beloved of > God! > > > Muhammad > > > > is > > > > > the > > > > > > first > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > only > > > > > > > > > Beloved of > > > > > > > > > >> God! If > God > > > > > > > > > >> loves you, > He > > loves > > > you > > > > > because of > > > > > > His > > > > > > > > Beloved!” > > > > > > > > > Some > > > > > > > > > >> people > even > > > > > > > > > >> stoned him > and > > he > > > would > > > > often > > > > > come > > > > > > home > > > > > > > > covered in > > > > > > > > > blood > > > > > > > > > >> but he was > > > > > > > > > >> totally > lost in > > his > > > love > > > > of > > > > > the > > > > > > Prophet > > > > > > > > (peace and > > > > > > > > > >> blessings > be > > upon > > > > > > > > > >> > him!)" > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> There is > an > > > apocryphal > > > > story > > > > > of how > > > > > > on > > > > > > > his > > > > > > > > > deathbed Dillu > > > > > > > > > >> Ram > Kausari > > > > > > > > > >> had a > vision of > > the > > > > Prophet > > > > > > himself, who > > > > > > > came > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > him, and > > > > > > > > > >> that he > > > > > > > > > >> read the > Kalima > > with > > > him. > > > > But > > > > > as > > > > > > this > > > > > > > vision > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > reported to > > > > > > > > > >> have > > > > > > > > > >> appeared > only > > to > > > him, as > > > > he > > > > > lay > > > > > > dying, > > > > > > > and as > > > > > > > > he > > > > > > > > > is no > > > > > > > > > >> longer > with us > > > > > > > > > >> to either > > confirm or > > > deny > > > > this > > > > > > deathbed > > > > > > > > > conversion, we can > > > > > > > > > >> only > > > > > > > > > >> surmise > that it > > was > > > a > > > > > generous, but > > > > > > > somewhat > > > > > > > > > disingenuous > > > > > > > > > >> method of > > > > > > > > > >> having > Dillu > > > Ram's > > > > > somewhat > > > > > > > unorthodox > > > > > > > > Muslim > > > > > > > > > >> apologists > > claim him > > > > > > > > > >> for > themselves. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> As far as > we > > are > > > > concerned, > > > > > Dillu > > > > > > Ram > > > > > > > > Kausari, > > > > > > > > > caused grave > > > > > > > > > >> offence, > > > > > > > > > >> by his > love for > > the > > > > Prophet, > > > > > both > > > > > > to > > > > > > > Hindu as > > > > > > > > well > > > > > > > > > as to > > > > > > > > > >> Muslim > > > > > > > > > >> zealots, > as > > long as > > > he > > > > lived. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> If, the > things > > we > > > call > > > > > religions > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > 'ways of > > > > > > > > > life' > > > > > > > > > >> then we > can > > > > > > > > > >> always > > determine for > > > > ourselves > > > > > > whether > > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > want to > > > > > > > > > walk on a > > > > > > > > > >> one way > > > > > > > > > >> street > that > > runs > > > into a > > > > dead > > > > > end, > > > > > > or to > > > > > > > cross > > > > > > > > many > > > > > > > > > paths, > > > > > > > > > >> walking > > > > > > > > > >> down one > way, > > for > > > one > > > > purpose, > > > > > down > > > > > > > another > > > > > > > > way > > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > >> another, > and > > > > > > > > > >> sometimes > just > > > standing > > > > in > > > > > between > > > > > > > paths, > > > > > > > > figuring > > > > > > > > > out our > > > > > > > > > >> journey, > > > > > > > > > >> as we go > about > > our > > > lives. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> I find > cases > > like > > > Husain > > > > and > > > > > Dillu > > > > > > Ram > > > > > > > > Kausari > > > > > > > > > interesting > > > > > > > > > >> not > > > > > > > > > >> becauseof > what > > they > > > > paint of > > > > > what > > > > > > they > > > > > > > say, > > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > > because > > > > > > > > > >> they seem > to > > > > > > > > > >> cause such > > prolonged > > > > traffic > > > > > jams > > > > > > on the > > > > > > > > 'ways > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > >> life'. > And > > all > > > they > > > > > > > > > >> were doing > was > > > crossing > > > > the > > > > > road. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> thanks and > > regards, > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> Shuddha > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> ----- > > > > > > > > > >> > Shuddhabrata > > > Sengupta > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > >> > reader-list: an > > open > > > > > discussion > > > > > > list on > > > > > > > media > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > the city. > > > > > > > > > >> Critiques > & > > > > Collaborations > > > > > > > > > >> To > subscribe: > > send > > > an > > > > email to > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > > with > > > > > > > subscribe > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > the subject > > > > > > > > > >> header. > > > > > > > > > >> To > unsubscribe: > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > > >> List > archive: > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > reader-list: > an > > open > > > > discussion > > > > > list on > > > > > > > media and > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > city. > > > > > > > > > > Critiques > & > > > > Collaborations > > > > > > > > > > To subscribe: > send > > an > > > email > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > with > > > > > > > > > > > > > > subscribe in > the > > subject > > > > header. > > > > > > > > > > To > unsubscribe: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shuddhabrata > Sengupta > > > > > > > > > The Sarai Programme > at > > CSDS > > > > > > > > > Raqs Media > Collective > > > > > > > > > shuddha at sarai.net > > > > > > > > > www.sarai.net > > > > > > > > > > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > reader-list: an > open > > > discussion > > > > list on > > > > > > media and > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > city. > > > > > > > > > Critiques & > > > Collaborations > > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send > an > > email > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > with > > > > > subscribe > > > > > > in > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > subject > > > > > > > > > header. > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rohitism at gmail.com Wed Sep 3 08:27:02 2008 From: rohitism at gmail.com (Rohit Shetti) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 08:27:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Have you seen this face of the world's largest democracy? In-Reply-To: <6353c690809021032xe06b0d5v58cea573b33ee8fb@mail.gmail.com> References: <772994.9923.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <47e122a70809020957w2bf9c89x1aa1865390859597@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690809021032xe06b0d5v58cea573b33ee8fb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: ..regardless of where it comes from, I think it is more important to acknowledge the current emotions than some sort of competition on masjid mandir demolition lists. History is important, but I think we are all capable of not using it for creating or justifying hatred within ourselves. R On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 11:02 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > And, probably your emotional one liners come from bollywood. :) :) > > > On 9/2/08, inder salim wrote: > > > > BE SHAK MANDIR MASJID TODO, PAR PYAR BARA DIL KABI NA TODO - > > > > ( .. may demolish a temple, a mosque, but never a heart full of love ) > > > > it is normal for Indians to love bollywood > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 10:08 PM, chanchal malviya > > wrote: > > > > > > Do you think Islam is Laxman? > > > Laxman was obedience to his elder brother. > > > Islam is deadly against its elder brother Hinduism. > > > > > > And do not say Ramayan is a myth. All the research on Ram Sethu and > > further in Sri Lanka has gone to proove the million year old history of > > India, that is sung by every Indian even today. > > > > > > If you want the list of temples put down in Kashmir in recent decade, > > here is it: > > > http://www.awakehindu.com/Articles/ListOfTempleDemolition.htm > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: inder salim > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 2, 2008 9:58:25 PM > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Have you seen this face of the world's > largest > > democracy? > > > > > > Lord Rama is weeping on seeing his brother Laxmana injured. > > > > > > only the most insensitive would hesitate to derail the process of > > > healing in Kashmir. > > > > > > so, listen to what the patient is suffereing from? > > > > > > with love > > > inder salim > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 7:17 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Rage in Kashmir meets India's brute force > > > > > > > > http://in.reuters.com/article/topNews/idINIndia-35279820080902 > > > > > > > > By Alistair Scrutton > > > > > > > > SRINAGAR, India (Reuters) - The world's largest democracy locks up > > > > protest leaders without charge, shoots dozens of demonstrators dead, > > > > beats and intimidates ordinary citizens and raids homes without > > > > warrants. > > > > > > > > Welcome to Indian Kashmir, where the biggest separatist protests in > > > > two decades have clashed with the might of the state. > > > > > > > > "They are ruthless, trigger happy," said Ghulam Rasool Bhat, a > > > > labourer who says he was beaten by federal police after he tried to > > > > buy milk for his two nephews under a curfew in Srinagar, the summer > > > > capital of Indian Kashmir. > > > > > > > > He lay in a bed, both legs bandaged where a soldier, shouting "Get > > > > your milk from Pakistan" had smashed a rifle into his shins. His legs > > > > felt, he said, as if in a continuous cramp. > > > > > > > > Police have shot dead at least 35 Muslim protesters in the > > > > Muslim-majority Kashmir Valley after a row over land for a Hindu > > > > shrine spiralled into marches and strikes against Indian rule. > > > > > > > > More than 1,000 people have been wounded in clashes over three weeks, > > > > hospital officials and police say, with the Kashmir Valley often > under > > > > curfew. Hundreds of people have suffered police baton beatings and > > > > bullet wounds, doctors say. > > > > > > > > The Indian government says its security forces have been fired upon > by > > > > protesters on several occasions, and said authorities had "acted > > > > within the law and with restraint". > > > > > > > > Witnesses said some protesters had thrown stones at police, but said > > > > that most were marching peacefully. India's hardline response to the > > > > protests has highlighted what critics say is its lack of strategy to > > > > find a solution to a problem that has already sparked two wars > between > > > > India and Pakistan, who both claim the region in full but rule it in > > > > parts. > > > > > > > > The crackdown may also be counter-productive. Residents say the > deaths > > > > and violent crackdown have fuelled anger against India and boosted > the > > > > separatist cause after years of relative peace. > > > > > > > > "The government of India does not have a strategy," said Siddharth > > > > Varadarajan, diplomatic editor of The Hindu newspaper. > > > > > > > > "It is relying heavily on coercion, arresting top and middle-level > > > > leaders in the hope it will break the back of unprecedented > protests." > > > > > > > > In rare criticism last week, the UN High Commissioner for Human > Rights > > > > called on India to avoid using excessive force. It drew a rebuke from > > > > India for interfering in its affairs. > > > > > > > > SIMMERING RESENTMENT > > > > > > > > For decades there has been simmering resentment at the hundreds of > > > > thousands of Indian troops stationed in Kashmir, making it one of the > > > > most militarised regions on earth. > > > > > > > > Roadblocks, verbal abuse from soldiers and raids on homes have long > > > > been a part of daily life. But as protests spiralled in August, the > > > > government sent in battalions of the Central Reserve Police Force > > > > (CRPF), a federal police force of mainly Hindus who do not speak > > > > Kashmiri. Strangers to Kashmir, most residents appear to despise > them. > > > > > > > > In interviews in Srinagar and nearby villages, tales were similar: > > > > CRPF beatings, night raids on homes, verbal abuse and smashed > windows. > > > > Life has been worse than in previous years. > > > > > > > > "They are not human," said Raja, a villager from Newtheed less than > an > > > > hour's drive from the city. She said soldiers smashed up her home, > > > > shouting "We'll show you what freedom is". > > > > > > > > In Srinagar, the CRPF has taken over from the local Kashmiri police > to > > > > enforce curfews and riot control. Residents complain of abuse at the > > > > slightest provocation -- selling bread, buying milk. > > > > > > > > One surgeon, who asked to remain anonymous because of fear of > > > > retribution from Indian authorities, said he has received around 400 > > > > wounded people in three weeks, 150 of them hit by bullets. > > > > > > > > "These are target killings. It's simple to see," said the doctor, > > > > explaining that many of the chest wounds were from weapons such as > > > > AK-47s. "Most of these were intended to kill. They were not to > > > > disperse a crowd." > > > > > > > > Shabir Ahmed Dar, 22, lay in one hospital bed after three operations. > > > > He was shot in the abdomen during a protest march to the Pakistani > > > > Kashmir border. > > > > > > > > "There was no warning from the police. They just fired." > > > > > > > > The police firings drew criticism from Human Rights Watch. "To end > > > > this cycle of tragedy, the government should order security forces to > > > > act with restraint," it said in a statement. > > > > > > > > It is not just a hardline response to street protests. Authorities > > > > have detained several separatist leaders without charge. Other > > > > leaders, many committed to democratic change and who publicly reject > > > > militant violence, were in hiding. > > > > > > > > Asiya Andrabi, chief of Kashmir's women's separatist group > > > > Dukhtaran-e-Milat (Daughters of the Muslim Faith) who had led some of > > > > the protests, has been detained under the Public Safety Act that > > > > allows for a year in jail without trial. > > > > > > > > The violence still pales in comparison with previous years when > > > > officials say more than 43,000 people have been killed in clashes > > > > involving Indian troops and Muslim militants since 1989. Human rights > > > > groups put the toll at about 60,000 dead or missing. > > > > > > > > Some analysts say authorities were in a difficult situation. > > > > > > > > "This is a place where security officials are getting attacked every > > > > second day," said Brahma Chellaney, professor of strategic studies at > > > > the New Delhi-based Centre for Policy Research, referring to the > years > > > > of militant insurgency. > > > > > > > > For Shameema, a 35-year-old woman who sells bread, the fear of police > > > > was clear. She talked about how police smashed her and her family > with > > > > batons for selling bread under curfew. Her husband displayed a wound > > > > to his head. > > > > > > > > She fell silent for a moment as a federal policeman official walked > up > > > > to her shop, ominously tapping his baton. Then, realising he could > not > > > > speak Kashmiri, she talked again. > > > > > > > > "I am scared," she said "But we have nowhere to go." > > > > > > > > (Additional reporting by Sheikh Mushtaq; Editing by Simon Denyer and > > > > Megan Goldin) > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > -- > > > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Wed Sep 3 09:22:30 2008 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 09:22:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Hindu Report : Software vending machine at Technopark Message-ID: <35f96d470809022052n6922a8b1ld4be2dd4afe59fe9@mail.gmail.com> http://www.hindu.com/2008/09/03/stories/2008090356150300.htm *Software vending machine at Technopark* Staff Reporter THIRUVANANTHAPURAM: And you thought only colas and crispies can be had from a vending machine? How about one that has on its 'menu' such things as 'Ubuntu' and 'Fedora'? Well, that is just the kind of gizmo that you may spot if you drop by the Park Centre at Technopark these days. Named Freedom Toaster, this machine promises to set you 'free' from proprietary software and paraphernalia such as licences. All you have to do at the Toaster is to insert a CD in a slot and press the right buttons. The Toaster will then 'burn' your choice on to the CD free. The Toaster, a dispenser of free software, is the brainchild of the Linux Users Group in Thiruvananthapuram and a private firm, Zyxware Technologies. Anoop John, chief executive officer of the company, says the idea is to spread the concept of free software among the techies of Tehnopark. "We want people to understand that there is an alternative to licences and proprietary software. We want people to have the freedom to share, to copy and to modify. We are now talking to companies in the Technopark to sponsor the Toaster at various locations inside the park," Mr. John says. He points out that normally, free software is spread through broadband Internet. In a country such as India, the scope of this is still limited. This is where a software dispenser such as the Toaster assumes importance. So, the freedom associated with free software works in two ways — one, the freedom to study, copy, share, modify and so on and two, the freedom from a price tag as many popular free software come free of cost. Mr. John says Zyxware will soon publish the details of the design and software that powers the Toaster so that anyone interested in building one will be free to do so. One advantage of the Toaster is that it can be dismantled and transported with ease anywhere. The Toaster will be lent to Linux users groups across the country, if needed. The Toaster was unveiled at the inaugural ceremony of a five-day Linux Install Fest inaugurated at the Technopark on Monday. From anivar at movingrepublic.org Wed Sep 3 09:40:23 2008 From: anivar at movingrepublic.org (Anivar Aravind) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 09:40:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Prakash Karat ensured peace in chengara In-Reply-To: <35f96d470809022105k1142da17t4ade1e9615246708@mail.gmail.com> References: <35f96d470809022105k1142da17t4ade1e9615246708@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <35f96d470809022110s1b72242cp851f50d3199347e@mail.gmail.com> Efforts on to ensure peace at Chengara Special Correspondent The Hindu http://www.hindu.com/2008/09/03/stories/2008090356730100.htm CPI(M) general secretary Prakash Karat met a team from Chengara on Tuesday. THIRUVANANTHAPURAM: Concerted efforts are on at the level of the government and the CPI(M) leadership to avert any outbreak of violence at Chengara where plantation workers are planning to hold a march to the venue of a land struggle in the estate land of the Harrison Malayalam Group. The government has issued strict instructions to the district administration to ensure that there is no breach of peace in connection with the march planned by the trade unions, which have been staging a 'blockade' on the roads leading to the estate land where hundreds of Scheduled Caste and Dalit Christian families are on an agitation for land for cultivation and habitation. The confrontation between the two sides has been a matter of concern and efforts are under way at different levels to find an amicable solution to the stand-off. Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes Development Minister A.K. Balan was in touch with the district administration and the district leadership of the party on Monday following reports that some Dalit families headed for the estate land were beaten up by the plantation workers. The offices of the Chief Minister and Revenue Minister K.P. Rajendran also have been keeping a close tab on the unfolding situation with strict instructions to the administration to see to it that nothing untoward happens in the area. On Tuesday, CPI(M) general secretary Prakash Karat, who discussed the issue with Home Minister Kodiyeri Balakrishnan, was told that all steps were being taken to ensure that there was no breach of peace and no attack on the agitators. Mr. Karat told a delegation of women activists, who called on him on Tuesday evening with a memorandum seeking an early resolution to the Dalits' struggle for land, that the Home Minister had been told to prevent violence as part of the march on Wednesday. Issues relating to plantations in general would have to be dealt with separately, he pointed out. The delegation appealed to Mr. Karat to ensure that there was no further violence against women participating in the agitation and the plantation workers' blockade was lifted at the earliest. He assured them that the CPI(M) and the government were fully sensitive to the issues raised by them. From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Wed Sep 3 11:03:37 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 11:33:37 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] VOGUE INDIA: Starving for a $10,000 handbag Message-ID: http://www.sajaforum.org/2008/09/vogue-india-fas.html A fashion spread in the latest Vogue India, in which poor, nameless Indians sport $10,000 handbags and $100 bibs, has catalyzed a profound reaction in the press and blogosphere. What is the acceptability, many are asking, of employing such jarring images, un-ironically, for the sake of commerce? >From UK's Telegraph: "The poor are always used as props, not as real people, which is why they haven't even been named in the magazine," said columnist Parsa Venkateshwar Rao. "Would they use homeless or hard up people in London for this kind of shoot?" <<< In The New York Times article which first brought widespread attention to the matter, Indian journalist Kanika Gahlaut is quoted: There's nothing "fun or funny" about putting a poor person in a mud hut in clothing designed by Alexander McQueen. "There are farmer suicides here, for God's sake," she said, referring to thousands of Indian farmers who have killed themselves in the last decade because of debt. <<< To which Vogue India editor Priya Tanna rebuts: "Lighten up...Vogue is about realizing the 'power of fashion' and the shoot was saying that "fashion is no longer a rich man's privilege. Anyone can carry it off and make it look beautiful. You have to remember with fashion, you can't take it that seriously. We weren't trying to make a political statement or save the world." <<< The online debate is mostly propelled by incredulity: Sepia Mutiny's Anna questions the nature of aspirational consumption that marks India's current moment: "Giving impoverished people $10,000 bags, Burberry bumbershoots and Fendi bibs for their children reeks of an appalling level of arrogance, an utterly clueless infatuation with 'edginess', and a heartless disregard for those for whom India does not yet shine. Way to keep it classy, VI. Also, just so you know, the text on that picture says, 'Baby's Day Out: It's never too early to start living in style.'" More outrage at Jossip... "Generally, we'd applaud the use of non-models in a fashion book. But we usually reserve our "thanks for not using anorexic models" applause for those who don't substitute them with "skinny because of malnourishment" persons." <<< <<< However, Daniel Altman, on his blog, Managing Globalization, insists Vogue's spread should be tolerated, as it only reflects the growing pains of a nascent but healthy liberal democracy: "But India is a democracy, and you can't simply tell people what to do with their money. Nor can you tell poor people what they should aspire to in life. Is a poor person somehow less deserving of a fancy handbag? Should they be prohibited from dreaming about the same luxuries as rich people enjoy?" <<< http://www.sajaforum.org/2008/09/vogue-india-fas.html From kuhutanvir at gmail.com Wed Sep 3 11:18:25 2008 From: kuhutanvir at gmail.com (Kuhu Tanvir) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 11:18:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] reader-list Digest, Vol 62, Issue 12 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Re: Chanchal's random comments Honestly Chanchal, when will you stop this? I can't believe I just read a line you wrote, "Islam is deadly against its elder brother Hinduism." I can forgive passionate statements about religion, but such ahistorical, illogical statements like this are infuriating. Please open a class 6 history textbook and you will realise that Islam came to India, and is probably one of oldest religions in the world, so your 'older brother' analogy is stupid. Of course had you said big brother, we would agree upon something! Meanwhile, please, please spare us these meaningless rants, for the sake of sanity On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 11:03 AM, wrote: > Send reader-list mailing list submissions to > reader-list at sarai.net > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > You can reach the person managing the list at > reader-list-owner at sarai.net > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Have you seen this face of the world's largest democracy? > (Rohit Shetti) > 2. Hindu Report : Software vending machine at Technopark > (Anivar Aravind) > 3. Prakash Karat ensured peace in chengara (Anivar Aravind) > 4. VOGUE INDIA: Starving for a $10,000 handbag (Naeem Mohaiemen) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 08:27:02 +0530 > From: "Rohit Shetti" > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Have you seen this face of the world's > largest democracy? > To: "Aditya Raj Kaul" > Cc: sarai list > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > ..regardless of where it comes from, I think it is more important to > acknowledge the current emotions than some sort of competition on masjid > mandir demolition lists. History is important, but I think we are all > capable of not using it for creating or justifying hatred within ourselves. > > R > > On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 11:02 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul >wrote: > > > And, probably your emotional one liners come from bollywood. :) :) > > > > > > On 9/2/08, inder salim wrote: > > > > > > BE SHAK MANDIR MASJID TODO, PAR PYAR BARA DIL KABI NA TODO - > > > > > > ( .. may demolish a temple, a mosque, but never a heart full of love ) > > > > > > it is normal for Indians to love bollywood > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 10:08 PM, chanchal malviya > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Do you think Islam is Laxman? > > > > Laxman was obedience to his elder brother. > > > > Islam is deadly against its elder brother Hinduism. > > > > > > > > And do not say Ramayan is a myth. All the research on Ram Sethu and > > > further in Sri Lanka has gone to proove the million year old history of > > > India, that is sung by every Indian even today. > > > > > > > > If you want the list of temples put down in Kashmir in recent decade, > > > here is it: > > > > http://www.awakehindu.com/Articles/ListOfTempleDemolition.htm > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > From: inder salim > > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 2, 2008 9:58:25 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Have you seen this face of the world's > > largest > > > democracy? > > > > > > > > Lord Rama is weeping on seeing his brother Laxmana injured. > > > > > > > > only the most insensitive would hesitate to derail the process of > > > > healing in Kashmir. > > > > > > > > so, listen to what the patient is suffereing from? > > > > > > > > with love > > > > inder salim > > > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 7:17 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Rage in Kashmir meets India's brute force > > > > > > > > > > http://in.reuters.com/article/topNews/idINIndia-35279820080902 > > > > > > > > > > By Alistair Scrutton > > > > > > > > > > SRINAGAR, India (Reuters) - The world's largest democracy locks up > > > > > protest leaders without charge, shoots dozens of demonstrators > dead, > > > > > beats and intimidates ordinary citizens and raids homes without > > > > > warrants. > > > > > > > > > > Welcome to Indian Kashmir, where the biggest separatist protests in > > > > > two decades have clashed with the might of the state. > > > > > > > > > > "They are ruthless, trigger happy," said Ghulam Rasool Bhat, a > > > > > labourer who says he was beaten by federal police after he tried to > > > > > buy milk for his two nephews under a curfew in Srinagar, the summer > > > > > capital of Indian Kashmir. > > > > > > > > > > He lay in a bed, both legs bandaged where a soldier, shouting "Get > > > > > your milk from Pakistan" had smashed a rifle into his shins. His > legs > > > > > felt, he said, as if in a continuous cramp. > > > > > > > > > > Police have shot dead at least 35 Muslim protesters in the > > > > > Muslim-majority Kashmir Valley after a row over land for a Hindu > > > > > shrine spiralled into marches and strikes against Indian rule. > > > > > > > > > > More than 1,000 people have been wounded in clashes over three > weeks, > > > > > hospital officials and police say, with the Kashmir Valley often > > under > > > > > curfew. Hundreds of people have suffered police baton beatings and > > > > > bullet wounds, doctors say. > > > > > > > > > > The Indian government says its security forces have been fired upon > > by > > > > > protesters on several occasions, and said authorities had "acted > > > > > within the law and with restraint". > > > > > > > > > > Witnesses said some protesters had thrown stones at police, but > said > > > > > that most were marching peacefully. India's hardline response to > the > > > > > protests has highlighted what critics say is its lack of strategy > to > > > > > find a solution to a problem that has already sparked two wars > > between > > > > > India and Pakistan, who both claim the region in full but rule it > in > > > > > parts. > > > > > > > > > > The crackdown may also be counter-productive. Residents say the > > deaths > > > > > and violent crackdown have fuelled anger against India and boosted > > the > > > > > separatist cause after years of relative peace. > > > > > > > > > > "The government of India does not have a strategy," said Siddharth > > > > > Varadarajan, diplomatic editor of The Hindu newspaper. > > > > > > > > > > "It is relying heavily on coercion, arresting top and middle-level > > > > > leaders in the hope it will break the back of unprecedented > > protests." > > > > > > > > > > In rare criticism last week, the UN High Commissioner for Human > > Rights > > > > > called on India to avoid using excessive force. It drew a rebuke > from > > > > > India for interfering in its affairs. > > > > > > > > > > SIMMERING RESENTMENT > > > > > > > > > > For decades there has been simmering resentment at the hundreds of > > > > > thousands of Indian troops stationed in Kashmir, making it one of > the > > > > > most militarised regions on earth. > > > > > > > > > > Roadblocks, verbal abuse from soldiers and raids on homes have long > > > > > been a part of daily life. But as protests spiralled in August, the > > > > > government sent in battalions of the Central Reserve Police Force > > > > > (CRPF), a federal police force of mainly Hindus who do not speak > > > > > Kashmiri. Strangers to Kashmir, most residents appear to despise > > them. > > > > > > > > > > In interviews in Srinagar and nearby villages, tales were similar: > > > > > CRPF beatings, night raids on homes, verbal abuse and smashed > > windows. > > > > > Life has been worse than in previous years. > > > > > > > > > > "They are not human," said Raja, a villager from Newtheed less than > > an > > > > > hour's drive from the city. She said soldiers smashed up her home, > > > > > shouting "We'll show you what freedom is". > > > > > > > > > > In Srinagar, the CRPF has taken over from the local Kashmiri police > > to > > > > > enforce curfews and riot control. Residents complain of abuse at > the > > > > > slightest provocation -- selling bread, buying milk. > > > > > > > > > > One surgeon, who asked to remain anonymous because of fear of > > > > > retribution from Indian authorities, said he has received around > 400 > > > > > wounded people in three weeks, 150 of them hit by bullets. > > > > > > > > > > "These are target killings. It's simple to see," said the doctor, > > > > > explaining that many of the chest wounds were from weapons such as > > > > > AK-47s. "Most of these were intended to kill. They were not to > > > > > disperse a crowd." > > > > > > > > > > Shabir Ahmed Dar, 22, lay in one hospital bed after three > operations. > > > > > He was shot in the abdomen during a protest march to the Pakistani > > > > > Kashmir border. > > > > > > > > > > "There was no warning from the police. They just fired." > > > > > > > > > > The police firings drew criticism from Human Rights Watch. "To end > > > > > this cycle of tragedy, the government should order security forces > to > > > > > act with restraint," it said in a statement. > > > > > > > > > > It is not just a hardline response to street protests. Authorities > > > > > have detained several separatist leaders without charge. Other > > > > > leaders, many committed to democratic change and who publicly > reject > > > > > militant violence, were in hiding. > > > > > > > > > > Asiya Andrabi, chief of Kashmir's women's separatist group > > > > > Dukhtaran-e-Milat (Daughters of the Muslim Faith) who had led some > of > > > > > the protests, has been detained under the Public Safety Act that > > > > > allows for a year in jail without trial. > > > > > > > > > > The violence still pales in comparison with previous years when > > > > > officials say more than 43,000 people have been killed in clashes > > > > > involving Indian troops and Muslim militants since 1989. Human > rights > > > > > groups put the toll at about 60,000 dead or missing. > > > > > > > > > > Some analysts say authorities were in a difficult situation. > > > > > > > > > > "This is a place where security officials are getting attacked > every > > > > > second day," said Brahma Chellaney, professor of strategic studies > at > > > > > the New Delhi-based Centre for Policy Research, referring to the > > years > > > > > of militant insurgency. > > > > > > > > > > For Shameema, a 35-year-old woman who sells bread, the fear of > police > > > > > was clear. She talked about how police smashed her and her family > > with > > > > > batons for selling bread under curfew. Her husband displayed a > wound > > > > > to his head. > > > > > > > > > > She fell silent for a moment as a federal policeman official walked > > up > > > > > to her shop, ominously tapping his baton. Then, realising he could > > not > > > > > speak Kashmiri, she talked again. > > > > > > > > > > "I am scared," she said "But we have nowhere to go." > > > > > > > > > > (Additional reporting by Sheikh Mushtaq; Editing by Simon Denyer > and > > > > > Megan Goldin) > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 09:22:30 +0530 > From: "Anivar Aravind" > Subject: [Reader-list] Hindu Report : Software vending machine at > Technopark > To: Greenyouth , > ilug-tvm at googlegroups.com, " > fourth-estate-critique at googlegroups.com" > , "Reader List" > > Message-ID: > <35f96d470809022052n6922a8b1ld4be2dd4afe59fe9 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > http://www.hindu.com/2008/09/03/stories/2008090356150300.htm > > *Software vending machine at Technopark* > > Staff Reporter > > THIRUVANANTHAPURAM: And you thought only colas and crispies can be had from > a vending machine? How about one that has on its 'menu' such things as > 'Ubuntu' and 'Fedora'? Well, that is just the kind of gizmo that you may > spot if you drop by the Park Centre at Technopark these days. > > Named Freedom Toaster, this machine promises to set you 'free' from > proprietary software and paraphernalia such as licences. All you have to do > at the Toaster is to insert a CD in a slot and press the right buttons. The > Toaster will then 'burn' your choice on to the CD free. > > The Toaster, a dispenser of free software, is the brainchild of the Linux > Users Group in Thiruvananthapuram and a private firm, Zyxware Technologies. > > Anoop John, chief executive officer of the company, says the idea is to > spread the concept of free software among the techies of Tehnopark. > > "We want people to understand that there is an alternative to licences and > proprietary software. We want people to have the freedom to share, to copy > and to modify. We are now talking to companies in the Technopark to sponsor > the Toaster at various locations inside the park," Mr. John says. > > He points out that normally, free software is spread through broadband > Internet. In a country such as India, the scope of this is still limited. > This is where a software dispenser such as the Toaster assumes importance. > So, the freedom associated with free software works in two ways — one, the > freedom to study, copy, share, modify and so on and two, the freedom from a > price tag as many popular free software come free of cost. > > Mr. John says Zyxware will soon publish the details of the design and > software that powers the Toaster so that anyone interested in building one > will be free to do so. > > One advantage of the Toaster is that it can be dismantled and transported > with ease anywhere. The Toaster will be lent to Linux users groups across > the country, if needed. > > The Toaster was unveiled at the inaugural ceremony of a five-day Linux > Install Fest inaugurated at the Technopark on Monday. > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 09:40:23 +0530 > From: "Anivar Aravind" > Subject: [Reader-list] Prakash Karat ensured peace in chengara > To: "Reader List" , Invitesplus > , pucl > Message-ID: > <35f96d470809022110s1b72242cp851f50d3199347e at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > Efforts on to ensure peace at Chengara > > Special Correspondent > The Hindu > http://www.hindu.com/2008/09/03/stories/2008090356730100.htm > > CPI(M) general secretary Prakash Karat met a team from Chengara on Tuesday. > THIRUVANANTHAPURAM: Concerted efforts are on at the level of the > government and the CPI(M) leadership to avert any outbreak of violence > at Chengara where plantation workers are planning to hold a march to > the venue of a land struggle in the estate land of the Harrison > Malayalam Group. > > The government has issued strict instructions to the district > administration to ensure that there is no breach of peace in > connection with the march planned by the trade unions, which have been > staging a 'blockade' on the roads leading to the estate land where > hundreds of Scheduled Caste and Dalit Christian families are on an > agitation for land for cultivation and habitation. The confrontation > between the two sides has been a matter of concern and efforts are > under way at different levels to find an amicable solution to the > stand-off. > > Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes Development Minister A.K. Balan > was in touch with the district administration and the district > leadership of the party on Monday following reports that some Dalit > families headed for the estate land were beaten up by the plantation > workers. The offices of the Chief Minister and Revenue Minister K.P. > Rajendran also have been keeping a close tab on the unfolding > situation with strict instructions to the administration to see to it > that nothing untoward happens in the area. > > On Tuesday, CPI(M) general secretary Prakash Karat, who discussed the > issue with Home Minister Kodiyeri Balakrishnan, was told that all > steps were being taken to ensure that there was no breach of peace and > no attack on the agitators. > > Mr. Karat told a delegation of women activists, who called on him on > Tuesday evening with a memorandum seeking an early resolution to the > Dalits' struggle for land, that the Home Minister had been told to > prevent violence as part of the march on Wednesday. Issues relating to > plantations in general would have to be dealt with separately, he > pointed out. > > The delegation appealed to Mr. Karat to ensure that there was no > further violence against women participating in the agitation and the > plantation workers' blockade was lifted at the earliest. He assured > them that the CPI(M) and the government were fully sensitive to the > issues raised by them. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 11:33:37 +0600 > From: "Naeem Mohaiemen" > Subject: [Reader-list] VOGUE INDIA: Starving for a $10,000 handbag > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > > http://www.sajaforum.org/2008/09/vogue-india-fas.html > > A fashion spread in the latest Vogue India, in which poor, nameless > Indians sport $10,000 handbags and $100 bibs, has catalyzed a profound > reaction in the press and blogosphere. What is the acceptability, many > are asking, of employing such jarring images, un-ironically, for the > sake of commerce? > > >From UK's Telegraph: > > > "The poor are always used as props, not as real people, which is > why they haven't even been named in the magazine," said columnist > Parsa Venkateshwar Rao. "Would they use homeless or hard up people in > London for this kind of shoot?" > <<< > > In The New York Times article which first brought widespread attention > to the matter, Indian journalist Kanika Gahlaut is quoted: > > > There's nothing "fun or funny" about putting a poor person in a mud > hut in clothing designed by Alexander McQueen. "There are farmer > suicides here, for God's sake," she said, referring to thousands of > Indian farmers who have killed themselves in the last decade because > of debt. > <<< > > To which Vogue India editor Priya Tanna rebuts: > > > "Lighten up...Vogue is about realizing the 'power of fashion' and > the shoot was saying that "fashion is no longer a rich man's > privilege. Anyone can carry it off and make it look beautiful. You > have to remember with fashion, you can't take it that seriously. We > weren't trying to make a political statement or save the world." > <<< > > The online debate is mostly propelled by incredulity: > > Sepia Mutiny's Anna questions the nature of aspirational consumption > that marks India's current moment: "Giving impoverished > people $10,000 bags, Burberry bumbershoots and Fendi bibs for their > children reeks of an appalling level of arrogance, an utterly clueless > infatuation with 'edginess', and a heartless disregard for those for > whom India does not yet shine. Way to keep it classy, VI. Also, just > so you know, the text on that picture says, 'Baby's Day Out: It's > never too early to start living in style.'" > > More outrage at Jossip... > > > "Generally, we'd applaud the use of non-models in a fashion book. But > we usually reserve our "thanks for not using anorexic models" applause > for those who don't substitute them with "skinny because of > malnourishment" persons." > <<< > > <<< > > However, Daniel Altman, on his blog, Managing Globalization, insists > Vogue's spread should be tolerated, as it only reflects the growing > pains of a nascent but healthy liberal democracy: "But India is a > democracy, and you can't simply tell people what to do with their > money. Nor can you tell poor people what they should aspire to in > life. Is a poor person somehow less deserving of a fancy handbag? > Should they be prohibited from dreaming about the same luxuries as > rich people enjoy?" > <<< > http://www.sajaforum.org/2008/09/vogue-india-fas.html > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > reader-list mailing list > reader-list at sarai.net > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > End of reader-list Digest, Vol 62, Issue 12 > ******************************************* > From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Wed Sep 3 11:52:10 2008 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 23:22:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Have you seen this face of the world's largest democracy? Message-ID: <969623.66848.qm@web90405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Well said.. That should be the ideal of human life... Unfortunately, it is not so... Now, it is time to think if you can live in this country as a Hindu for long.. and if so, how long... because not only History, but recent shape of World also points to only one thing... Darul Islam.. and not Darul Hareb... So, all the best for peace... I do not hate Muslims... But I am attacking to what is wrong... Will Muslims come out some day to say, yet what has been told in Quran is scrap.. because God cannot himself teach hatred and war... Can Christians also do the same... If so, there is no doubt this world will become a nice place to live... Or else, if people will believe in Day of Judgement... they will surely act also according to that so that Day of Destruction is reached... It is all about attitude.. and when Mass Attitude is harmful.. People of peace must create Arjuns so that Krishna can also come in their protection... Or else, dead people are liable to face easy death.. that is what Lord Krishna meant in Chapter 11 of Bhagwad Geeta... He showed Arjun that people are already dead, so what is the big deal in actually killing them.. Let us not be dead.. Let us be lively to have pride for our Sanatan Dharma... Because Dharma is our father, and Bharat is our Mother.... if you do not understand this... There is nothing to stop your descturction... It is happening. It happened in History.. It happened in Malabar.. It happened in all Islamic countries... It happened in Kashmir.. It will happen soon with you... This is not hatred.. This is exposure of hatred that lies on the other side in the name of GOD... ----- Original Message ---- From: Rohit Shetti To: Aditya Raj Kaul Cc: sarai list Sent: Wednesday, September 3, 2008 8:27:02 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Have you seen this face of the world's largest democracy? ..regardless of where it comes from, I think it is more important to acknowledge the current emotions than some sort of competition on masjid mandir demolition lists. History is important, but I think we are all capable of not using it for creating or justifying hatred within ourselves. R On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 11:02 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > And, probably your emotional one liners come from bollywood. :) :) > > > On 9/2/08, inder salim wrote: > > > > BE SHAK MANDIR MASJID TODO, PAR PYAR BARA DIL KABI NA TODO - > > > > ( .. may demolish a temple, a mosque, but never a heart full of love ) > > > > it is normal for Indians to love bollywood > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 10:08 PM, chanchal malviya > > wrote: > > > > > > Do you think Islam is Laxman? > > > Laxman was obedience to his elder brother. > > > Islam is deadly against its elder brother Hinduism. > > > > > > And do not say Ramayan is a myth. All the research on Ram Sethu and > > further in Sri Lanka has gone to proove the million year old history of > > India, that is sung by every Indian even today. > > > > > > If you want the list of temples put down in Kashmir in recent decade, > > here is it: > > > http://www.awakehindu.com/Articles/ListOfTempleDemolition.htm > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: inder salim > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 2, 2008 9:58:25 PM > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Have you seen this face of the world's > largest > > democracy? > > > > > > Lord Rama is weeping on seeing his brother Laxmana injured. > > > > > > only the most insensitive would hesitate to derail the process of > > > healing in Kashmir. > > > > > > so, listen to what the patient is suffereing from? > > > > > > with love > > > inder salim > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 7:17 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Rage in Kashmir meets India's brute force > > > > > > > > http://in.reuters.com/article/topNews/idINIndia-35279820080902 > > > > > > > > By Alistair Scrutton > > > > > > > > SRINAGAR, India (Reuters) - The world's largest democracy locks up > > > > protest leaders without charge, shoots dozens of demonstrators dead, > > > > beats and intimidates ordinary citizens and raids homes without > > > > warrants. > > > > > > > > Welcome to Indian Kashmir, where the biggest separatist protests in > > > > two decades have clashed with the might of the state. > > > > > > > > "They are ruthless, trigger happy," said Ghulam Rasool Bhat, a > > > > labourer who says he was beaten by federal police after he tried to > > > > buy milk for his two nephews under a curfew in Srinagar, the summer > > > > capital of Indian Kashmir. > > > > > > > > He lay in a bed, both legs bandaged where a soldier, shouting "Get > > > > your milk from Pakistan" had smashed a rifle into his shins. His legs > > > > felt, he said, as if in a continuous cramp. > > > > > > > > Police have shot dead at least 35 Muslim protesters in the > > > > Muslim-majority Kashmir Valley after a row over land for a Hindu > > > > shrine spiralled into marches and strikes against Indian rule. > > > > > > > > More than 1,000 people have been wounded in clashes over three weeks, > > > > hospital officials and police say, with the Kashmir Valley often > under > > > > curfew. Hundreds of people have suffered police baton beatings and > > > > bullet wounds, doctors say. > > > > > > > > The Indian government says its security forces have been fired upon > by > > > > protesters on several occasions, and said authorities had "acted > > > > within the law and with restraint". > > > > > > > > Witnesses said some protesters had thrown stones at police, but said > > > > that most were marching peacefully. India's hardline response to the > > > > protests has highlighted what critics say is its lack of strategy to > > > > find a solution to a problem that has already sparked two wars > between > > > > India and Pakistan, who both claim the region in full but rule it in > > > > parts. > > > > > > > > The crackdown may also be counter-productive. Residents say the > deaths > > > > and violent crackdown have fuelled anger against India and boosted > the > > > > separatist cause after years of relative peace. > > > > > > > > "The government of India does not have a strategy," said Siddharth > > > > Varadarajan, diplomatic editor of The Hindu newspaper. > > > > > > > > "It is relying heavily on coercion, arresting top and middle-level > > > > leaders in the hope it will break the back of unprecedented > protests." > > > > > > > > In rare criticism last week, the UN High Commissioner for Human > Rights > > > > called on India to avoid using excessive force. It drew a rebuke from > > > > India for interfering in its affairs. > > > > > > > > SIMMERING RESENTMENT > > > > > > > > For decades there has been simmering resentment at the hundreds of > > > > thousands of Indian troops stationed in Kashmir, making it one of the > > > > most militarised regions on earth. > > > > > > > > Roadblocks, verbal abuse from soldiers and raids on homes have long > > > > been a part of daily life. But as protests spiralled in August, the > > > > government sent in battalions of the Central Reserve Police Force > > > > (CRPF), a federal police force of mainly Hindus who do not speak > > > > Kashmiri. Strangers to Kashmir, most residents appear to despise > them. > > > > > > > > In interviews in Srinagar and nearby villages, tales were similar: > > > > CRPF beatings, night raids on homes, verbal abuse and smashed > windows. > > > > Life has been worse than in previous years. > > > > > > > > "They are not human," said Raja, a villager from Newtheed less than > an > > > > hour's drive from the city. She said soldiers smashed up her home, > > > > shouting "We'll show you what freedom is". > > > > > > > > In Srinagar, the CRPF has taken over from the local Kashmiri police > to > > > > enforce curfews and riot control. Residents complain of abuse at the > > > > slightest provocation -- selling bread, buying milk. > > > > > > > > One surgeon, who asked to remain anonymous because of fear of > > > > retribution from Indian authorities, said he has received around 400 > > > > wounded people in three weeks, 150 of them hit by bullets. > > > > > > > > "These are target killings. It's simple to see," said the doctor, > > > > explaining that many of the chest wounds were from weapons such as > > > > AK-47s. "Most of these were intended to kill. They were not to > > > > disperse a crowd." > > > > > > > > Shabir Ahmed Dar, 22, lay in one hospital bed after three operations. > > > > He was shot in the abdomen during a protest march to the Pakistani > > > > Kashmir border. > > > > > > > > "There was no warning from the police. They just fired." > > > > > > > > The police firings drew criticism from Human Rights Watch. "To end > > > > this cycle of tragedy, the government should order security forces to > > > > act with restraint," it said in a statement. > > > > > > > > It is not just a hardline response to street protests. Authorities > > > > have detained several separatist leaders without charge. Other > > > > leaders, many committed to democratic change and who publicly reject > > > > militant violence, were in hiding. > > > > > > > > Asiya Andrabi, chief of Kashmir's women's separatist group > > > > Dukhtaran-e-Milat (Daughters of the Muslim Faith) who had led some of > > > > the protests, has been detained under the Public Safety Act that > > > > allows for a year in jail without trial. > > > > > > > > The violence still pales in comparison with previous years when > > > > officials say more than 43,000 people have been killed in clashes > > > > involving Indian troops and Muslim militants since 1989. Human rights > > > > groups put the toll at about 60,000 dead or missing. > > > > > > > > Some analysts say authorities were in a difficult situation. > > > > > > > > "This is a place where security officials are getting attacked every > > > > second day," said Brahma Chellaney, professor of strategic studies at > > > > the New Delhi-based Centre for Policy Research, referring to the > years > > > > of militant insurgency. > > > > > > > > For Shameema, a 35-year-old woman who sells bread, the fear of police > > > > was clear. She talked about how police smashed her and her family > with > > > > batons for selling bread under curfew. Her husband displayed a wound > > > > to his head. > > > > > > > > She fell silent for a moment as a federal policeman official walked > up > > > > to her shop, ominously tapping his baton. Then, realising he could > not > > > > speak Kashmiri, she talked again. > > > > > > > > "I am scared," she said "But we have nowhere to go." > > > > > > > > (Additional reporting by Sheikh Mushtaq; Editing by Simon Denyer and > > > > Megan Goldin) > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > -- > > > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From santhosh.kanipayur at gmail.com Wed Sep 3 12:01:10 2008 From: santhosh.kanipayur at gmail.com (Santhosh Kumar) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 12:01:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Have you seen this face of the world's largest democracy? In-Reply-To: <969623.66848.qm@web90405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <969623.66848.qm@web90405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <19d498870809022331q5951c89cs3009a86b06d35bd0@mail.gmail.com> Dear Chanchal, What happened dreaded thing happened in Malabar? Being a Malayali living in same place you mentioned, I did not know. Please enlighten me (preferably with few quotes from Gita). On 9/3/08, chanchal malviya wrote: > > Well said.. That should be the ideal of human life... > Unfortunately, it is not so... Now, it is time to think if you can live in > this country as a Hindu for long.. and if so, how long... because not only > History, but recent shape of World also points to only one thing... Darul > Islam.. and not Darul Hareb... So, all the best for peace... > I do not hate Muslims... But I am attacking to what is wrong... > Will Muslims come out some day to say, yet what has been told in Quran is > scrap.. because God cannot himself teach hatred and war... Can Christians > also do the same... > If so, there is no doubt this world will become a nice place to live... > Or else, if people will believe in Day of Judgement... they will surely act > also according to that so that Day of Destruction is reached... It is all > about attitude.. and when Mass Attitude is harmful.. People of peace must > create Arjuns so that Krishna can also come in their protection... > > Or else, dead people are liable to face easy death.. that is what Lord > Krishna meant in Chapter 11 of Bhagwad Geeta... He showed Arjun that people > are already dead, so what is the big deal in actually killing them.. Let us > not be dead.. Let us be lively to have pride for our Sanatan Dharma... > Because Dharma is our father, and Bharat is our Mother.... if you do not > understand this... There is nothing to stop your descturction... It is > happening. It happened in History.. It happened in Malabar.. It happened in > all Islamic countries... It happened in Kashmir.. It will happen soon with > you... > > This is not hatred.. This is exposure of hatred that lies on the other side > in the name of GOD... > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Rohit Shetti > To: Aditya Raj Kaul > Cc: sarai list > Sent: Wednesday, September 3, 2008 8:27:02 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Have you seen this face of the world's largest > democracy? > > ..regardless of where it comes from, I think it is more important to > acknowledge the current emotions than some sort of competition on masjid > mandir demolition lists. History is important, but I think we are all > capable of not using it for creating or justifying hatred within ourselves. > > R > > On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 11:02 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul >wrote: > > > And, probably your emotional one liners come from bollywood. :) :) > > > > > > On 9/2/08, inder salim wrote: > > > > > > BE SHAK MANDIR MASJID TODO, PAR PYAR BARA DIL KABI NA TODO - > > > > > > ( .. may demolish a temple, a mosque, but never a heart full of love ) > > > > > > it is normal for Indians to love bollywood > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 10:08 PM, chanchal malviya > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Do you think Islam is Laxman? > > > > Laxman was obedience to his elder brother. > > > > Islam is deadly against its elder brother Hinduism. > > > > > > > > And do not say Ramayan is a myth. All the research on Ram Sethu and > > > further in Sri Lanka has gone to proove the million year old history of > > > India, that is sung by every Indian even today. > > > > > > > > If you want the list of temples put down in Kashmir in recent decade, > > > here is it: > > > > http://www.awakehindu.com/Articles/ListOfTempleDemolition.htm > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > From: inder salim > > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 2, 2008 9:58:25 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Have you seen this face of the world's > > largest > > > democracy? > > > > > > > > Lord Rama is weeping on seeing his brother Laxmana injured. > > > > > > > > only the most insensitive would hesitate to derail the process of > > > > healing in Kashmir. > > > > > > > > so, listen to what the patient is suffereing from? > > > > > > > > with love > > > > inder salim > > > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 7:17 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Rage in Kashmir meets India's brute force > > > > > > > > > > http://in.reuters.com/article/topNews/idINIndia-35279820080902 > > > > > > > > > > By Alistair Scrutton > > > > > > > > > > SRINAGAR, India (Reuters) - The world's largest democracy locks up > > > > > protest leaders without charge, shoots dozens of demonstrators > dead, > > > > > beats and intimidates ordinary citizens and raids homes without > > > > > warrants. > > > > > > > > > > Welcome to Indian Kashmir, where the biggest separatist protests in > > > > > two decades have clashed with the might of the state. > > > > > > > > > > "They are ruthless, trigger happy," said Ghulam Rasool Bhat, a > > > > > labourer who says he was beaten by federal police after he tried to > > > > > buy milk for his two nephews under a curfew in Srinagar, the summer > > > > > capital of Indian Kashmir. > > > > > > > > > > He lay in a bed, both legs bandaged where a soldier, shouting "Get > > > > > your milk from Pakistan" had smashed a rifle into his shins. His > legs > > > > > felt, he said, as if in a continuous cramp. > > > > > > > > > > Police have shot dead at least 35 Muslim protesters in the > > > > > Muslim-majority Kashmir Valley after a row over land for a Hindu > > > > > shrine spiralled into marches and strikes against Indian rule. > > > > > > > > > > More than 1,000 people have been wounded in clashes over three > weeks, > > > > > hospital officials and police say, with the Kashmir Valley often > > under > > > > > curfew. Hundreds of people have suffered police baton beatings and > > > > > bullet wounds, doctors say. > > > > > > > > > > The Indian government says its security forces have been fired upon > > by > > > > > protesters on several occasions, and said authorities had "acted > > > > > within the law and with restraint". > > > > > > > > > > Witnesses said some protesters had thrown stones at police, but > said > > > > > that most were marching peacefully. India's hardline response to > the > > > > > protests has highlighted what critics say is its lack of strategy > to > > > > > find a solution to a problem that has already sparked two wars > > between > > > > > India and Pakistan, who both claim the region in full but rule it > in > > > > > parts. > > > > > > > > > > The crackdown may also be counter-productive. Residents say the > > deaths > > > > > and violent crackdown have fuelled anger against India and boosted > > the > > > > > separatist cause after years of relative peace. > > > > > > > > > > "The government of India does not have a strategy," said Siddharth > > > > > Varadarajan, diplomatic editor of The Hindu newspaper. > > > > > > > > > > "It is relying heavily on coercion, arresting top and middle-level > > > > > leaders in the hope it will break the back of unprecedented > > protests." > > > > > > > > > > In rare criticism last week, the UN High Commissioner for Human > > Rights > > > > > called on India to avoid using excessive force. It drew a rebuke > from > > > > > India for interfering in its affairs. > > > > > > > > > > SIMMERING RESENTMENT > > > > > > > > > > For decades there has been simmering resentment at the hundreds of > > > > > thousands of Indian troops stationed in Kashmir, making it one of > the > > > > > most militarised regions on earth. > > > > > > > > > > Roadblocks, verbal abuse from soldiers and raids on homes have long > > > > > been a part of daily life. But as protests spiralled in August, the > > > > > government sent in battalions of the Central Reserve Police Force > > > > > (CRPF), a federal police force of mainly Hindus who do not speak > > > > > Kashmiri. Strangers to Kashmir, most residents appear to despise > > them. > > > > > > > > > > In interviews in Srinagar and nearby villages, tales were similar: > > > > > CRPF beatings, night raids on homes, verbal abuse and smashed > > windows. > > > > > Life has been worse than in previous years. > > > > > > > > > > "They are not human," said Raja, a villager from Newtheed less than > > an > > > > > hour's drive from the city. She said soldiers smashed up her home, > > > > > shouting "We'll show you what freedom is". > > > > > > > > > > In Srinagar, the CRPF has taken over from the local Kashmiri police > > to > > > > > enforce curfews and riot control. Residents complain of abuse at > the > > > > > slightest provocation -- selling bread, buying milk. > > > > > > > > > > One surgeon, who asked to remain anonymous because of fear of > > > > > retribution from Indian authorities, said he has received around > 400 > > > > > wounded people in three weeks, 150 of them hit by bullets. > > > > > > > > > > "These are target killings. It's simple to see," said the doctor, > > > > > explaining that many of the chest wounds were from weapons such as > > > > > AK-47s. "Most of these were intended to kill. They were not to > > > > > disperse a crowd." > > > > > > > > > > Shabir Ahmed Dar, 22, lay in one hospital bed after three > operations. > > > > > He was shot in the abdomen during a protest march to the Pakistani > > > > > Kashmir border. > > > > > > > > > > "There was no warning from the police. They just fired." > > > > > > > > > > The police firings drew criticism from Human Rights Watch. "To end > > > > > this cycle of tragedy, the government should order security forces > to > > > > > act with restraint," it said in a statement. > > > > > > > > > > It is not just a hardline response to street protests. Authorities > > > > > have detained several separatist leaders without charge. Other > > > > > leaders, many committed to democratic change and who publicly > reject > > > > > militant violence, were in hiding. > > > > > > > > > > Asiya Andrabi, chief of Kashmir's women's separatist group > > > > > Dukhtaran-e-Milat (Daughters of the Muslim Faith) who had led some > of > > > > > the protests, has been detained under the Public Safety Act that > > > > > allows for a year in jail without trial. > > > > > > > > > > The violence still pales in comparison with previous years when > > > > > officials say more than 43,000 people have been killed in clashes > > > > > involving Indian troops and Muslim militants since 1989. Human > rights > > > > > groups put the toll at about 60,000 dead or missing. > > > > > > > > > > Some analysts say authorities were in a difficult situation. > > > > > > > > > > "This is a place where security officials are getting attacked > every > > > > > second day," said Brahma Chellaney, professor of strategic studies > at > > > > > the New Delhi-based Centre for Policy Research, referring to the > > years > > > > > of militant insurgency. > > > > > > > > > > For Shameema, a 35-year-old woman who sells bread, the fear of > police > > > > > was clear. She talked about how police smashed her and her family > > with > > > > > batons for selling bread under curfew. Her husband displayed a > wound > > > > > to his head. > > > > > > > > > > She fell silent for a moment as a federal policeman official walked > > up > > > > > to her shop, ominously tapping his baton. Then, realising he could > > not > > > > > speak Kashmiri, she talked again. > > > > > > > > > > "I am scared," she said "But we have nowhere to go." > > > > > > > > > > (Additional reporting by Sheikh Mushtaq; Editing by Simon Denyer > and > > > > > Megan Goldin) > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From markcmarino at gmail.com Tue Sep 2 04:27:56 2008 From: markcmarino at gmail.com (Mark Marino) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 14:57:56 -0800 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] CFW: Bunk Magazine and Matt Hatters (October 1+, Spring 2009) Message-ID: <287213f30809011557t135b3faeo5cff1a44b827cba0@mail.gmail.com> 2 Calls for Bunk Works Following up on "The Los Wikiless Timespedia," Bunk Magazine (http://www.bunkmag.com) is seeking submissions for two upcoming issues of new media art. 1) Spring-Summer 2009"The Mad Bunkers Mash" (Humor and Literary) A mash-up of two stately magazines, the literary giant Mad Hatters review and Bunk Magazine. The mash up issue seeks mashups, mashers, and works to be mashed. Those Who Wish to Be Mashed: October 1 Those Who Wish to Mash: October 15 Those Who Wih to Mash Their Own: February 1 (Note: that last deadline has been extended) See the full call here:http://www.madhattersreview.com/submit.shtml 2) Fall-Winter 2009 "Widget Issue" (Humor/Satire) Send us your widgets. Widgetbox, YourMinis, Google Gadgets, or other portable doodads. Or send us proposals for widgets for this issue of portable parody and satire. Proposals due October January 15, 2008 Finished Widgets Deadline July 1, 2008. Please contact with questions: Mark C. Marino, Editor, Bunk Magazine. -- Writing Program University of Southern California http://WriterResponseTheory.org http://CriticalCodeStudies.com _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From asitredsalute at gmail.com Tue Sep 2 16:42:40 2008 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (Asit asitreds) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 16:42:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Final List of Signatories on Supreme Court Order on Niyamgiri Message-ID: *STATEMENT OF CONCERN ON NIYAMGIRI* We the undersigned are deeply concerned over the recent order of the Supreme Court in T.N. Godavaraman Thirumulpad vs. Union of India and Others in the matter of M/s Sterlite Industries (India) Ltd. This Order will pave the way for forcible displacement of thousands of *adivasis *for the mining of bauxite by Sterlite Industries Ltd., a frontal company of the notorious Vedanta Alimunium Industries, which is already tainted with its corporate malpractices. We note with deep anxiety that most of the inhabitants here are Dongria Kondhs who are classified as Primitive Tribes (which itself is a colonial construct) who know no other way of life hence need to be dealt with due sensitivity and precaution and who will be uprooted and marginalized once they are removed from their natural habitat. Today, where the UN bodies, all the governments, international and national civil societies including the progressive and democratic organisations world over are worried and deliberating on global warming and the impending ecological disaster and death of the planet. The issue raised by this judgement has become of crucial importance. The Dongria Kondhs who live a harmonious and symbiotic relationship with their environment show the way to mankind on how to lead a sustainable, meaningful and egalitarian life. It is also to be noted that the present order of the Supreme Court contradicts the 89th Amendment of the Constitution which clearly stipulates that no industry, mines or townships or any other construction activity can be undertaken without the consent of the Gram Sabhas of *adivasis *residing in the areas demarcated under the Fifth Schedule of the Constitution. This order will also nullify the implementation of the recently passed *Forest Rights Act*, under which the *adivasis *tilling forestland should get the ownership of the land they have been tilling since years. We are also deeply concerned that mining in Niyamgiri area will seriously upset the ecological equilibrium; this area is very rich in bio diversity including rare flora and fauna and many species of rare medicinal herbs. Niyamgiri hills are also the source of important rivers like Nagavali, Vansdhara, which caters to the need of many districts in Orissa including the southern coastal districts. The mining in that area will contravene the provisions of the Environmental Protection Act 1986 because it will seriously violate the letter and spirit of the Act. We urge the political parties especially the three most important pillars of our democracy i.e. the Executive, Judiciary and the Legislature to take cognisance of the aspirations of innumerable anti-displacement movements and progressive and democratic organisations in the country and scrap the draconian and colonial land acquisition act of 1894. Thus we call upon the Supreme Court, Government of India and Orissa to reconsider the case of mining in the Niyamgiri Hills and rescind the permission given to Sterlite Industries for mining in Niyamgiri. 1. Gautam Navalakha PUDR New Delhi 2. Kalpana Mehta Saheli , New Delhi 3. Swanai Agnivesh Bandhva Mukti Morcha, New Delhi 4. P.K Shahi AIFTU, New Delhi 5. Surendra Mohan Socialist Thinker, New Delhi 6. Ranjana Padhi Social Activist, New Delhi 7. Prof J. P. Rao Osmania University, Hyderabad 8. Dr Anup Saraya AIIMS, New Delhi 9. Anil Chaudhary Peace New Delhi 10. Dr Vikas Vajpayee AIIMS, New Delhi 11. Kamal Mitra Chenoy School of International Studies ,JNU 12. Prof Utsa Patnaik CESP,SSS/JNU 13. Prof Anuradha Chenoy School of International Studies,JNU 14. Prof C.P. Chandrasekhar CESP/SSS, JNU 15. Prof Pralay Kanungo Centre for Political Studies, JNU 16. Prof K. R. Nayar CSMCH/SSS/JNU 17. Thomas Kochery World Forum of Fisher People 18. Professor Arun Kumar CESP/SSS/JNU 1. Nagraj Adve PUDR, New Delhi 2. Sandip Pandey NAPM, Lucknow 3. Dr Qmar Agha Peace, New Delhi 4. John Dayal President, All India India Catholic Union, New Delhi 5. Dr Anil Sadgopal Ex-Dean, Delhi University/Bhopal 6. Manisha Sethi Forum for Democratic Initiative News 7. Radhika Menon Forum for Democratic Initiative News 8. Prof Anand Kumar CSSS/SSS, JNU 9. Prof Jayati Ghosh CESP/SSS, JNU 10. Prof Praveen Jha CESP/SSS, JNU 11. Prof Dilip Menon Delhi University 12. Prof Nivedita Menon SIS,JNU 13. Dev Dutt Journalist, New Delhi 14. Dunu Roy Hazard Centre, New Delhi 15. Prof Ritu Priya School of Social Science,JNU 16. Subhash Gatade New Socialist Initiative, New Delhi 17. S. R. Hiremath Samaj Parivartan Samuday, Karnataka 18. Harish Dhawan PUDR, New Delhi 19. Sree Rekha PUDR, New Delhi 20. Shiv mangal Siddhankar CPI(ML) New Proleterian 21. Dr Suman Bhaskar AIIMS, New Delhi 22. Dr N Bhattacharya Jan Hasthksep 23. Prof Uma Chakraborty (Retd) Delhi University 24. Sharmila Purukayastha Lect Miranda House 25. Sebastian Rodrigues Social activist,Goa 26. Prof Nandini Sunder Delhi University 27. Prof J P Rao Osmania University,Hyderabad 28. Adv J Ramchandra Rao AP High Court Hyderabad 29. Prof Savyasachi Jamia Milia Islamia,New Delhi 30. Ashok Chowdhary NFFPWF, New Delhi 31. Prof K R Nayar CSMCH / SSS, JNU 32. Dhananjay Tripathy Ex-President, JNU Student's Union 33. Prof Pralay Kanungo Political Studies, JNU 34. PK Anand Student, CEAS/JNU 35. Sanjay Kumar Student, CSSP/JNU 36. Kalai yarsan Student, CSSP/JNU 37. Man Bhajan Meher Student, CRCAS/ SIS, JNU 38. Jitendra Chahar Peace, New Delhi 57. Vijay Pratap Convenor, Lokayan 58. Babulal Sharma Convenor, Global Gandhi Forum 59. Rakesh Bhatt Coordinator, SADED/CSDS 60. Faisal Khan Asha Parivar, NAPM, New Delhi 61. Anil Thakur Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam, New Delhi 62. Chandrasekhar Hota Research Scholar, CPS/SSS JNU 63. Jeet Bhattacharya Research Scholar, Film Studies, School of Art & Aesthetics, JNU 64. Peeyush Pant Editor, Lok Samvad, New Delhi 65. Sayantoni Datta SADED/CSDS 66. Asit Social Activist-Researcher, New Delhi 67. Kumar Sameer Social Activist, New Delhi 68. Shabnam Hashmi Anhad, New Delhi 69. Kavita Krishnan Editor, Liberation 70. Kiran Shaheen Media and Social activist, New Delhi 71. Kundan Kumar Activist,Researcher,Orissa 72. Felix Padel Anthropologist,U.K. 73. Subrat Kumar Sahu Film Maker and Freelance Writer, New Delhi 74. Mamta Dash Social activist and researcher, New Delhi 75. Prof Manidra Nath Thakur Centre for Political Studies ,SSS,JNU 76. Prof Vivek Kumar Centre for Study of Social System, SSS, JNU 77. Prof Rohan D'Souza Centre for Study of Science Policy, SSS ,JNU 78. Prof Mohan Rao CSMCH/SSS/JNU 79. Prof Janaki Abraham Women's Study Programme, SSS, JNU 80. Prof Vinitha Damodaran University of Sussex, Sussex, U.K. 81. Prof Asha Sarangi Centre for Political Studies,JNU 82. 84)Prithpal Singh Randhawa Research Scholar, IDS,Sussex, U.K. 83. Rona Wilson Research Scholar and social activist, New Delhi 84. Sunil Kumar Social Activist, New Delhi 85. G.N. Trivedi Lecturer, Moti lal Nehru College, Delhi University 86. Amit Student, CESP/SSS, JNU 87. Sumandro Research Scholar, JNU 88. Debolina Biswas Student, CESP/SSS,JNU 89. Dhananjay Tripathi Ex-President, JNU student's Union 90. Vibha Iyer Research Scholar, CESP,SSS/JNU 91. Zico Dasguptan Councilor JNU Student's Union 92. P.K. Anand Research Scholar , CEAS /JNU 93. Prof Chaman Lal Centre for Indian language, School of Language ,JNU 94. Agnctra Ghosh Research Scholar, Film Studies, School of art and Aesthetic,JNU 95. Rishika Mehrshi Research Scholar, Performing arts, School of Art and Aesthetic,JNU 96. A.P. kaveendra Research Scholar, CIL/SL, JNU 97. Awadesh Research Scholar, CIL/SL, JNU 98. Ashok Agarwal Advocate , New Delhi 99. Ayush Social Activist, New Delhi 100. Pushkar Raj PUCL, India 101. Ashok Aggrwal Lawyer and social activist, New Delhi 102. Ambarish Rai President Lok sangram Morcha , Gujarat 103. Anand Verma Social Activist, Bhopal 104. Rita Mishra Social Activist, New Delhi 105. Tapas Ray Former Journalist,USA 106. Subhas Mahapatra Human Right activist Raipur, Chhatishgarh 107. Rose Mary viswanath Equations, Bangalore 108. Aseem Srivastava Activists/Researcher, New Delhi 109. Jaya Iyer Theatre and social activist , New Delhi 110. Aftb Alam Research Scholar 1. Aloka Peace, New Delhi 2. Abhimanyu Social Activist, New Delhi 3. Hrishi Kant Mamgain World Social Forum 4. Aditya Nigam CSDS, Delhi 5. Naveen New Socialist Initiative, Delhi 6. Abhishek Guru Journalist, Delhi 7. Henri Tiphagne People Watch, Trivandrum 8. Jenny Rowena Hansraj College, New Delhi 9. Hari Babu Delhi University 10. Roma NFFPFW, New Delhi 11. Thomas Mathew Activist, New Delhi 12. Dr Ajitha Insight Foundation, New Delhi 13. V. B. Rawat Upland Alliance (U.P.) 14. Anand Verma Social Activist, Bhopal 15. Anivar Aravind Social Activist, Bangalore 16. Jayendu Krishna Social Activist, New Delhi 17. Mayur Chetia P.S.U. Delhi University 18. Debashish Manjit Lecturer Dayal Singh College, New Delhi 19. Dr M.P. Rana Buddha Samiti Sansthan 20. Jitendra Kumar Journalist, Nai Duniya, New Delhi 21. Biju Lal Delhi Solidarity Group 22. Bano Jyotsana DSU,JNU 23. Sumati Pannikkar DSU,JNU 24. Elizabeth Institute of Dalit Studies,New Delhi 25. Sridevi Pannikar Delhi Solidarity Group 26. Shewta Anand CSMCH/SSS/JNU 27. Pravin Mote New Delhi 28. Sruti New Delhi 139. Jayendu Krishna Researcher, N ew Delhi 140. Sushant Panigrahy Student Delhi School of Economics From kj.impulse at gmail.com Tue Sep 2 18:39:17 2008 From: kj.impulse at gmail.com (Kavita Joshi) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 18:39:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [DFA NewsLetter] Film Invitations from Kriti team: September 2008 Message-ID: <821019d70809020609v1e3607a3w4a7e09b15e7663c5@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: SPACE KRITI Subject: Invitations from Kriti team: September 2008 Dear friends, This September 2008, the Kriti team invites you to join us for film screenings, a panel discussion, a music concert and a contemporary dance and movement performance! Read on and check our blog for updated information! we look forward to seeing you at one or more of these gatherings! warm wishes Kriti team Thursday, 11th September, 2.30 pm: Niyamgiri, Mountain of Law (100 mins/ Local language with English sub-titles/ 2008) by Samadrusti TV and Surya Shankar Dash screening at the Faculty of Political Science, Delhi University(confirmations requested) Tuesday, 16th September, 5.30 pm: Punches n Ponytails, a film on women boxing in India (74 min/ English/ 2008) by pankaj rishi kumar screening at the Kriti workplace, S-35 tara apartments, new delhi 19(film maker will attend/ confirmations requested as space is limited) 20-22 September 2008 Interpretations of Peace and Conflict: A Festival by Kriti Team India Habitat Centre, New Delhi Saturday, 20th September, 7-8.30 PM: Manufacturing Peace - A Panel Discussion with Eminent Scholars & Activists @Gulmohar hall, India Habitat Centre, Lodi Road, New Delhi (open entry/ confirmations requsted) Sunday, 21st September, 7-8.30 pm: Rhythms of Peace 2009 to mark International Day of Peace A musical concert for peace by Susmit Bose A dramatized poetry reading session by Charu Shankar @Amaltas, India Habitat Centre, Lodi Road, New Delhi (open entry/ confirmations requsted) Monday, 22nd September, 7.30-9.00 pm Cohesions and Contradictions: a dance, movement and music performance, directed and choreographed by Rashid Ansari @Stein Auditorium, India Habitat Centre, Lodi Road, New Delhi (entry on 22nd with passes, please call or write in for booking yours) 25th September, 2.30 pm: Tales from the Margins (24 mins/ English) by Kavita Joshi screening at the Faculty of Political Science, Delhi University (film maker will attend/ confirmations requested) For further details contact us at: Phone: +91-11-26027845/ 26033088 Email: space.kriti at gmail.com http://krititeam.blogspot.com ________________________________ Hottest news and in-depth analysis that goes beyond the headlines. Only on MSN News Check it out! - -- Kavita Joshi Filmmaker and Media Trainer ~ Delhi more info: kavitajoshi.blogspot.com workshops: groups.google.com/group/impulseworkshops - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ Please DO NOT REPLY to the sender. To contact the MODERATOR: delhifilmarchive [at] gmail.com To UNSUBSCRIBE: send an email to delhifilmarchive-unsubscribe at googlegroups.com More OPTIONS are on the web: http://groups.google.com/group/delhifilmarchive Our WEBSITE: www.delhifilmarchive.org -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Sep 3 13:52:20 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 13:52:20 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri separatists are isolated from reality Colonel Dr Anil A Athale (retd) Message-ID: <6b79f1a70809030122i55f6a77cocf56f13f0d8e69e5@mail.gmail.com> In a television debate, National Conference leader Farooq Abdullah mocked a Jammu Muslim who supported the agitation. Little does he or others realise that the Muslims of Jammu have also suffered from the stupid government policy of appeasing the separatists and kicking the nationalists. Just one example should suffice. School teachers' jobs in even remote Jammu regions go to Kashmiris from the valley. The teachers so appointed (at a good salary) are absent most of the time except on the first every month to collect their salary. The education levels among Jammu's Muslims are abysmal. In a tehsil of Mendhar in Poonch district, for example, there is not a single graduate! In Rajouri division, when I led a team of scientists ten years ago (in an attempt at bringing in horticulture technology to J&K to better people's life), we were aghast to see a soil testing laboratory that had a clean look about it -- all the equipment for soil testing was never used! This is the legacy of valley appeasement that the Jammu people revolted against. The Hurriyat and other separatists, marginalised by the peace process, jumped into the fray, cried wolf and went back to the bad old days of shutdowns and marches to the United Nations office in Srinagar[Images ]. A new innovation this time round was a call to march to and a threat to take their fruits to Pakistan. In a reversal of fortune the slogan of 'Azadi' (freedom) was replaced by the cry for merger with Pakistan. *Root causes of current unrest in Kashmir* The root cause of the present trouble in the valley is the fact that beginning in the 1980s the Sufi tradition of Kashmir has been on the retreat and in its place the virulent Waahabi/Deobandi Islam has become the dominant creed. Saudi money, the influx of mullahs from UP have dealt a death blow to the *Kashmiriyat* that took pride in tolerant Islam. The *burqa, *totally alien to Kashmir, made its appearance. Sufi shrines like the one of Baba Rishi at Tannemarg (on the way to Gulmarg) and Charar-e-Sharif were burnt down by the militants. Girls schools were destroyed and Ayesha Andrabi of Dukhtaran e Millat was emboldened to throw acid on girls daring to wear jeans. The State, such as it was, abdicated its responsibility and watched helplessly. This is the underlying cause of the present unrest -- neither the use of force by security forces nor the so-called economic blockade. The idea of *Kashmiriyat *today exists only in the minds of a lunatic fringe of candle carrying peaceniks and in the studios of politically correct television channels. But it will be wrong on the part of the Indian State and even more for the Kashmiris to think that they can repeat the shenanigans of the early 1990s. *Changed geopolitics* The world, specially the West, has changed radically since 1989-90.**The sole superpower was then in support of the Kashmiri cause, such as it was. BBC, the paragon of Western objectivity, repeatedly showed a clip of a toothless old Kashmiri woman shouting 'We want *Sharia' *in Kashmir. The US was bent upon teaching a lesson to erstwhile Soviet allies like India. Osama bin Laden was the blue-eyed boy of the Americans and Mujahids (Muslim religious fighters) were still basking in the afterglow of the victory over the Soviets in Afghanistan. The West had still to learn the disaster that awaited it by patronising the Waahabi creed. The attacks on the US on September 11, 2001, changed all that. One wonders if the Kashmiri separatists have noticed the absence of any comment from the West on the current happenings in Kashmir. Even the Pakistanis appeared surprised, though delighted, by the present happenings. The Pakistan Senate promptly passed a resolution condemning 'excessive' use of force by the Indians. It was comic since at that very time Pakistan was using helicopter gunships and fighter aircraft against its own tribals in the frontier area. The day the march to Muzaffarabad took place, over 50 Shia Muslims were killed in an attack on a hospital in Pakistan. Pakistanis were delighted that while Baluchistan and the tribal areas were in open revolt against the federal authorities, Kashmiris were clamouring to join them. Pakistanis were indeed grateful that at least someone in world thought that they were not a failed State. But despite some noises, even Pakistanis seemed aghast at the movement in Kashmir. Thanks to the peace process and people to people contacts, most Pakistanis now accept the secular credentials of India. The average Pakistani is keen to establish trade, cultural and educational contacts with India. *Is there a way forward?* The valley Kashmiris' outburst was and is like a reaction of a spoilt child who revolts irrationally when denied his demands. The reaction in Jammu was the first time ever that the valley people received a jolt. It is noteworthy that the troubles in J&K, of the separatist variety, are confined to Srinagar valley. It is the valley that is out of sync with the region and the world. There is no hope of any support to the irrational demands of a fundamentalist minority. Neither the US nor UK wants another safe heaven for the Al Qaeda[Images ] to come up in the subcontinent. Even China, which faces Muslim separatism, is wary. The Russians know what it is like to create another Chechenya. Kashmiri separatists are isolated from reality. India must sit tight and not succumb to pressure tactics. After relative peace that Kashmir has got used to, let there be a dose of unrest for the Kashmiri to come to his collective senses. *Colonel Dr Anil Athale (retd) is the Chhatrapati Shivaji Fellow at the United Services Institution, Delhi [Images ]**, and coordinator of the Pune-based Institute for Peace and Disarmament* From shuddha at sarai.net Wed Sep 3 15:16:03 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 15:16:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord Message-ID: <2C17DAF3-FEB4-4D74-9136-731806A6470F@sarai.net> Dear All, An unusual intensity of hunger for land unites corporations, state agencies and shrine boards in India. Captains of Industry, politicians and land hungry divines seem to be more interested in acrage than in anything else. The Mahabharata mentions the burning of the Khandava forest to appease a hungry god, inaugurating a long history of burnt and erased forests and commons. It appears as it we are surrounded now by 'hungry gods'. The Khandava-daha continues. Be it Chengara (thanks, Anivar Aravind for keeping us updated about the land struggle in Kerala, where the ruling CPI(M) led Left Front is intent on displacing indigenous communities from their land), or Singur (where again, the ruling CPI(M) wants to gift land 'free' to a gigantic corporation or Amarnath, - the issues - remain the same - to do with state mediated acquisition of land, and the sequestering of either cultivator's land, or a natural commons into some form of 'gated' and 'fenced' land. There has been some premature media spin around the 'accord' that has been reached with the Shree Amarnath Yatra Sangharsh Samiti based in Jammu. On the face of it, the accord appears to grant a limited usage right to the Shree Amarnath Shrine Board. On closer reading of the text however, it becomes evident that the terms of this 'accord' are actually even more invasive than was the case with the substance of the original gubernatorial 'land transfer' order in May. I am enclosing below - an article by A. G. Noorani, a well known legal historian and practitioner of constitutional law, titled 'An Immoral and Illegal Accord' which was published in the Greater Kashmir newspaper today. It is available on line at - http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp? Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1 Noorani carefully reads the terms of the Amarnath Accord in this article. As I had pointed out before on this list (in my second post (dated 15th August, 2008) in the thread - 'Gun Salutes for August 15' in response to Sonia Jabbar and Aditya Raj Kaul - the anger in Kashmir has a lot to do with the arbitrary acquisition of land - I had shown, using state government figures, how the equivalent of one in ten fruit orchards can be said to be under the occupation of the Armed Forces. The 'Amarnath Land Transfer' issue needs to be seen in this context. As long as that anger (regarding the alienation of land) is not addressed, the people of Kashmir will have no reason, in my estimation, to think of themselves as anything but under a brutal and unrelenting occupation. The current 'Amarnath Accord' in my view, worsens the situation, and can alienate the people of Kashmir (for the reasons that Noorani underlines below) even more. As such, it can only be viewed as yet another provocation, yet another disaster, in the long and undistinguished record of the Government of India's tragic blundering on Kashmir. It cannot but prove to be divisive in a situation that urgently requires the opposite. regards Shuddha ======================================================================== ======================= An Immoral and Illegal Accord Greater Kashmir, September 03, 2008 A G NOORANI Srinagar, Sep 2: The accord between the Jammu and Kashmir government and the Shri Amarnath Yatra Sangharsh Samiti on 31 August is far worse than the government’s order only three months earlier on 26 May. It grants the SAYSS concessions beyond what the May order did. It is one-sided and marks an abject surrender to violence, blockade and to communal forces. The differences between the order and accord are glaring. Here is a list: 1. The order was made pursuant to a decision on 20 May by the cabinet in which both Jammu and Kashmir were represented. The accord completely ignores Kashmir where the land is to be given. Jammu alone was represented. A week earlier, there was a clampdown in the Valley and top leaders were arrested. 2. Even the controversial order nowhere used the word “exclusive”. The SAYSS felt so emboldened as to demand it and threaten to wreck the deal if it was not conceded. The government yielded in the early hours of 31 August. Para 6A says that the Government “shall set aside for use by Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board exclusively the land in Baltal and Domail”. This order unknown anywhere in the world is cloaked under a lie by calling it “traditionally under use for the annual yatra purpose”. The traditional route for over a century is the Pahalgam route. The Baltal route is a recent demand. It was regarded by the Army and Nitish Sengupta Report as dangerous. It is also unnecessary if the limit of yatris set by the Report (1 lakh) is observed. 3. This violates the citizen’s fundamental right under Art. 19 (1) D to move freely throughout India. The demand of exclusivity was not made even in May 2008 or in decades earlier. It is pure communal aggression using the yatra for political demonstration not religious piety. 4. The duration of use is widened to cover pre and post yatra period. Para 6 C first says that the land will be used “for the duration of the yatra” including the period of preparations and winding up. But the very next para has these sinister words: “The aforesaid land shall be used according to the Board’s requirements from time to time, including for the following”. There follow 9 measures including construction, setting up of the sheds and shops etc. These can be done even beyond the yatra period “from time to time” and “according to the Board’s requirements”; may be all the year around. 5. Para 8 of the order insisted that the land “shall return” to the State. This is dropped in the accord. This accomplishes S.K. Sinha’s objective— permanent use the year round. 6. Also dropped totally is Para 4 on payment for user. 7. Dropped too is Para 6. An undertaking of “foolproof measures against water pollution and Para 7 on payment of fine for damage to the forest. There is a pious provision in accord Para 6 C (ix) among the objectives of land user; namely “undertaking measures relating to … preservation of ecology” etc. Breach entails no fine. 8. The order of 26 May was rescinded on 1 July. The accord will require a fresh order to implement it. By itself the accord has no legal force. Section 2(a) of the J&K Forest (Conservation) Act 1997 says “the Government shall not, except on a resolution of the Council of Ministers based on the advice of the Advisory Committee” constituted under the Act “make any order directing that any forest land or any portion thereof may be used for any non-forest purpose”. The earlier phrase “Council of ministers” merely was revised by an amendment in 2001 and the Forest Advisory Committee’s advice was added and made mandatory. “Council of Ministers” is specific. It is different from “J&K Government” whose powers vest now in the governor alone. The law intentionally provides the resolution as a safeguard. This Council can come into existence only after the next elections. In any case the Forest Advisory Committees advice on 12 July 2007 cannot apply to this new accord which must be vetted afresh by that Committee. It was given before the Supreme Court’s final judgment in the T M Godavarman case on 23 November 2007 which lays down the law and makes important observations on balancing development with protection of environment. Failure to consider it vitiates the decision. Precisely based on misrepresentation of opinion of the deputy CM Muzaffar Hussain Beg and advocate general Altaf Naik both of which were given in entirely difference cases. The accord lacks legal efficacy as well as moral and political legitimacy. Any order in its implementation will be void in law. It is a pity that the state should bend all rules to buy peace with communal forces including promise to consider compensation for law- breakers. What of compensation to the Valley for the blockade? The parivar in Jammu has already begun asking for more. The Government has not bought peace but trouble. It is gunah-e-bey lazzat (sin without any taste.) If the state can thus bend its knees before the Sangh parivar on an issue like this, what hopes of justice can Kashmiris entertain when it comes to restoring the raped Article 370 to a status of worth and respect? END ======================================================================== ======================= From mail at shivamvij.com Wed Sep 3 15:47:47 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 15:47:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Have you seen this face of the world's largest democracy? In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70809020858r7ddc9114vb9c48e3669450fce@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30809020647n3d7737f6w2dddd3791f25b54@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70809020858r7ddc9114vb9c48e3669450fce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30809030317w19fdb3f0jf76e56442cefc5b0@mail.gmail.com> So how many wrongs make a right? And how many such crackdowns, how many Kashmiri Muslim lives do you think can compensate for these aggressions? Is there a measurement index? best shivam (citizen of a country that claims to be democratic, republic, secular and other things) On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 9:28 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > The following brief is based on the recorded findings of Historians > including Muslim chroniclers and foreign non-Hindu travelers). > > *TAPER TEMPLES* > Sikandar the iconoclast desecrated and destroyed this temple which was built > by Queen of Partapaditya II who reigned in Kashmir from 634 to 648 A.D. > Zain-Ul-Abdin (1420-70) A.D. used stones and idols in the construction of > Bund from the Naidkhal to Sopore. > > *SHANKARACHARYA MANDIR (SRINAGAR)* > Noor Jehan, Queen of Jahangir, built the grand Mosque known as Pather Masjid > (Srinagar) with the sculptured beautiful stones which formed steps of the > mandir right from River Jhelum to the top of the hill. > > *NARPARISTHAN MANDIR (SRINAGAR)* > Built by Likhana-Naraindraditya who reigned Kashmir from 178 to 191 A.D. has > been turned into a Muslim ziarat called Narparisthan. > > *KALI MANDIR (SRINAGAR)* > Qutab-Ud-din usurped it (1373-89) A.D. to be converted into a mosque in > memory of Mir Syed Ali of Hamdan of Persia who had come to the Valley to > establish Islam. Hindu King Pravarsena ll. had dedicated the Kali-Shrine to > the Goddess Kali (79-139 A.D.). > > *MAHASHRI MANDIR (SRINAGAR)* > It was turned into a graveyard, Wife of Sikander was buried in its interior. > > *SKANDA BHAWAN (SRINAGAR Downtown)* > Its sacred springs and massive temple construction desecrated and spoilt, it > was christened as Ziarat of Pir Mohd. Basur. > > *TRIBHAWANA-SVAMIN (SRINAGAR Downtown)* > This temple built by Chadrapida (684 to 693 A.D.) was laid to ruins and its > vast vicinity used as graveyard. > > *KSHANA-GANVISHVARA* > Built in (950-58 A.D.) was desecrated. Its sculptured stones removed. DIDDA- > MATHA (Srinagar downtown) Temple converted into Tomb of Malik Sahib. > > *VIKRAMISHVERA (VICHARNAG)* > Built (521-63 A.D.) It was destroyed by Sikander. Material utilized to built > a mosque nearby. > > *AMRITA BHAWANA* > Constructed by Queen Magavahana (22 B.C -13 A.D.) There are other ruins of > Hindu temples in its vicinity which have been converted into Ziarats and > burial grounds and nothing is known about their antiquity. > > *RANESHVARA (SHALIMAR GARDEN)* > Built by King Ramadatiya (414-74 A.D) > > On the North Eastern corner of the Dal Lake, Pravarsena II, the founder of > Srinagar had built a Villa for a Hindu saint named Sukarna Swami. Bernier, > who visited Kashmir with Aurangzeb, gives an interesting account of the > garden in his travels and says that the doors and pillars made of stone were > used in the garden during Mughal era had come from some of the idol temples > demolished by Shah Jehan and that it was impossible to estimate their value. > > *MARTAND* > Built by King Ramadeva (2936-3005 B.C) with large ornamented and beautifully > carved stones erecting it to the height of 50 yards. Regarding this British > Researcher Sir Walter Lawrence has remarked thus: > > While the old Hindu buildings defy time and weather, the Musalman shrines > and mosques crumbled away. Other foreign travelers have recorded that Hindu > temples were built to endure for all time. Their solidity of construction > and their gigantic size strike one with wonder that puny man could have > built them. They often gazed upon them with amazement and lamented bigoted > Muslim fanatics who laid them to ruins with tremendous efforts. > > *TEMPLE OF BUZMA* > It was usurped and converted into the Ziarat of Baba Bamdin. Another temple > close by was turned into the tomb of Rukh Din, disciple of Muslim Priest > Bamdin. > > *SHRINES AROUND DAL LAKE* > The slopes of the mountains overlooking the Dal lake have adorned many > ancient shrines mercilessly destroyed by bigoted Muslim fanatics. > > *SHARDA UNIVERSITY & ACADEMY OF LEARNING (VIJAISHORI, now BIJBEHARA)* > Sir Walter Lawrence records in his ''Vale of Kashmir'' that all books of > Hindu learning which bigoted Muslims could lay their hands on were sunk in > the Dal lake and Sikander flattered himself that he had extirpated Hinduism > from the Valley. Alberuni an Arab scholar recording his visit to Kashmir has > stated that in all their grandeur the Hindus of Kashmir never slackened in > their ardent desire of doing that which was good and right. He also records > they were men of noble sentiments and noble bearing. Books of science, > astronomy, space travel, medicine and the like were destroyed - The labor of > countless ages and countless researchers. > > We quote here under from world famous work of *Mr. M. A. Stein:* > *Rajtarangini - Kalhana (Volume II)* > Moti Lal Banarsidass Publishers Pvt. Ltd. > Delhi, Reprint 1989 > > *HILL OF SARIKA* > Eastern slopes of the latter are now occupied by extensive buildings > connected with famous ziarats of Maqaddam Sahib and Akhun Mullah Shah. It is > probable that Mohammadan shrines have taken here place of Hindu religious > buildings, just as at so many old sites of Kashmir. > > Close to the foot of the southern extremity of the hill is a rock which has > from ancient times received worship as an embodiment of Ganesa under the > name of BHIMASVAMIN...... In fact, if we are to believe Jonaraja, the rock > image has changed its position yet a second time. This chronicler relates > that BHIMASVAMIN from disgust at the iconoclasm of Sikander Butshikan had > finally turned his back on city. > Page 446, para 95 > > *TEMPLE OF SIVA PRAVARESVAPA* > A short distance to the S. E. to the BHIMASVAMIN rock and outside Akbar's > fortress, lies Ziarat of Baha-ud-din Sahib, built undoubtedly with the > materials of an ancient temple. The cemetery which surrounds it contains > also many ancient remains in its tombs and walls. At the S.W. corner of this > cemetery rises a ruined gateway, built of stone blocks of remarkable size, > and still of considerable height. This structure is traditionally believed > by the Srinagar Pandits to have belonged to the Temple of SIVA PRAVARESVARA > which Kalahana mentions as the first Shrine erected by PRAVARESVARA in his > new capital. > > ...... Blocks majoring up to sixteen feet in length, with a width and > thickness equally imposing, were no convenient materials for the builders of > Muhammadan Ziarats, hammams etc. who have otherwise done so much to efface > the remains of ancient structures in Srinagar. The position of the ruins is > very central and might have well been chosen by the founder of Pravarapura > for prominent shrine in his new city. > > *POSITION OF RAMASVAMIN TEMPLE* > Not far from Baha-ud-din Sahib's Ziarat, to the S.W. stands Jami Masjid, the > greatest Mosque of Srinagar. Around it numerous ancient remains attest the > former exist- ence of Hindu Temples. Proceeding still further to S.W, in the > midst of a thickly built city-quarter, we reach an ancient shrine which has > remained in a comparatively fair state of preservation probably owing to its > conversion into a ziarat. It is now supposed to mark the resting - place of > the saint styled Pir Haji Mohammed. It consists of an octagonal cellar of > which high basement and the side walls are sill- preserved. The quadrangular > court in which it stands is enclosed by ancient walls and approached by or > ornamented gateways. The position of this shrine has suggested me its > possible identity with the ancient temple of VISNU RANASVAMIN which Kalhana > mentions as founded by Ranaditya.This temple must have enjoyed considerable > celebrity up to a comparatively late period. Mankha refers to it an object > of his father's devotion, and Jonaraja in his comments on the passage speaks > of VISNU RANASVAMIN as one of the chief shrines of Pravarapura. The evidence > on which the suggested identification is based has been fully indicated in > note iii.453. > Page 447, para 96 > > *SKANDABHAVANA* > The site of vihara has been traced by me in the close vicinity of Ziarat Pir > Muhammad Basur. Certain ancient remains there were locally known and > worshipped till the middle of the present century as a tirth sacred to > Skanda. Near the SKANDABHAVANVIHARA there stood once the temple of > Sivaparavaguptesvara referred to by Kalhana as a foundation of King > Paravagupta. Page 448, Para 97 > > *SAMUDRAMATHA* > A little higher up, if we can trust local tradition, stood the ancient > temple of VARDHAMANESA mentioned already in King SAMDHIMAT'S reign. The site > so designated by the purohits of the adjoining mohalla is close to the > Malyar ghat. I have referred already in a previous note to the curious > manner in which an ancient linga supposed to be that of VARDHAMANESA was > recovered a few years ago from a neighbouring mosque and a Mahatmaya > composed for the newly established shrine. > Page 450 Para 99 > > *JUSKAPURA* > A tradition recorded already by General Cunninghum identifies this place > (Zukur) with ancient JUSKAPURA. Kalhana names the place as a foundation of > Turuska (i.e Kusana ) King Juska who also built Vihara there. The Muhammadan > shrines and tombs of the village contain considerable remains of the ancient > buildings. Page 456, Para 104 > > *AMARESVARA* > On the shore of the Anchar lies the large village of Amburher. It took its > name from a temple of Siva Amaresvara which Suryamati, Ananta's queen, > endowed with Agraharas and a matha.The ancient slabs and sculptured > fragments which I found in 1895 in and around the ziarat of Farrukhzad > Sahib, may possibly have belonged to this temple. > Page 456,457 Para 104 > > *VICHARNAG* > It is held be a manifestation of Ailapattra Nag who is mentioned also in > Nilamata. An earlier designation seems to be MUKAMULAKANAGA which is given > to the locality by Srivara and in the Tirthasamgraha. To the west of village > and near an inlet of Anchar are the ruins of three ancient temples now > converted into ziarats and tombs. > > *TIRTHA OF SODARA* > Close to the mosque of Sodarbal and by the lake shore are two pools fed by > perennial springs. These according to local tradition, were in old times > visited by numerous piligrims. Now all recollection of this tirtha has been > lost among the Brahmins of Srinagar. But a name of the portion of the > village area, Battapor, points to a former settlement of Battas or Purohits. > It is curious too that we find only half a mile from the village the ziarat > of Hazatbal, perhaps the most popular of all muhammadan shrines in the > valley. It is supposed to be built over the remains of the miracle-working > Pir Dastagir Sahib. Is it possible that the presence of the rather > ubiquitous saint at this particular spot had something to do with the > earlier Hindu Tirtha? > Page 457, Para 104 > > *PADMAPURA* > The chief place of Vihi Pargana is now the town of Pampar, the ancient > Padmapura, about 4 miles south west of Khunmoh. It was founded in the > beginning of 9th century by Padma, the powerful uncle of puppet King > Cippata/Jayapida. Padma is said by the chronicle to have also built a temple > of Visnu-Padmasvamin. To this may possibly have belonged the scanty remains > of an ancient temple which have been described by General Cunningham. Close > by is the Ziarat of Mir Muhammad Hamadani with some fine ancient columns and > ornamented slabs which are likely to have been taken from the temple. Also > other Ziarats of the town show similar remains. > > *SANARA* > Only a mile to the south east of Khruv is the village of Sar, until recently > the seat of flourishing iron-industry, Kalhana mentions it by the name of > Sanara as an Agrahara founded by King Sacinara------. The Ziarat of Khwaja > Khizar which stands here near small springs is built with the remains of the > Hindu Temple. Page 459, Para 105 > > About two miles south-west of Sar are found the well preserved ruins of a > temple near the village Ladu (not marked on survey map). They have been > described by Bishop Cowie, but I am unable to trace any old reference to > this shrine in the texts I have examined. It is remarkable for having a > circular cellar, the only one known to me in Kashmir. A small square cellar > to the east of this temple has been annexed to a neighbouring Ziarat. > Page 459-60, Para 105 > > *CAKRADHARA* > It was once the site of one of the oldest and most famous shrines of the > volley, the temple of Visnu Cakradhara.... The plateau is still as TSAKDAR > UDAR.... The shrine of Cakaradhara is often mentioned as Tirtha of great > sanctity. The temple seems to have been subsequently restored, and Jonaraja > mentions the statue of CAKRADHARA among those chief divine images which > Sikandar Butshikan destroyed. > Page 461-62, Para 107 > > *TEMPLE OF SIVA VIJAYESVARA* > The old Linga of Siva Vijayesvara seems to have been destroyed by Sikander > Butshikast. > Page 464, Para 109 > > *DISTRICT OF VAMAPARSVA* > It forms the modern Pargana of Khovurpor. An old site is undoubtedly the > large village of Hutmar. Its modern name seems to identify it with the > SAKTAMATA which Ksemendra names as one of the stations in peregrinations of > his heroin Kankali. The chief mosque of the place is built with the remains > of a Hindu temple and preserves in its walls some sculptured fragments of > remarkable beauty. > > *SHRINE OF BHIMAKESAVA* > About a mile below Hutmar and on the bank of a branch of Lider lies the > hamlet of Bumzu which contains an ancient structure of considerable > historical interest. The Ziarat of Baba Bamdin Sahib is nothing but a well > preserved resting place of a Muhammadan saint. > Page 465, Para 110 > > *TEMPLE OF MARTANDA* > The ancient remains at the sacred spring itself are very scanty. All the > more imposing are the ruins of the great temple which King Lalitaditya > erected at a short distance of the presiding deity of the tirtha. The > destruction of the sacred image is ascribed to Sikander Butshikast. > Page 166, Para 111 > > *SAMANGASA* > About four miles to the north east of Kother and on a branch of Arpath river > lies the populous village of Sangas, the ancient Samagasa......... some old > carved slabs built into the chief Ziarat of the place attest its antiquity. > Page 467,468, Para 112 > > *DISTRICT OF KARALA* > In the lower portion of the district and on the left bank of Visoka, we have > the ancient Katimuso, the present village of Kaimuh. The place Is mentloned > by Kalhana as Agrahara, founded by Tunjina I, and contains some old remains > built into its chief Ziarat. > Page 471, Para 116 > > *PARIHASAPURA* > It has received its name from the ancient Parihasapura which King > Lilitaditya had built as his captal. The identity of the names Parspor and > Parihasapura is evident on phonetic grounds, and was well known to the > authors of the Persian abstracts of Rajatarangini. Yet curiously enough the > site of Parihasapura had remained unidentified until I visited the spot in > 1892 and traced the ruins of Lalitaditya's great structures as described by > Kalhana on the Plateau known as Paraspor Udar. > > The full destruction of the temples is attributed by Abu-l-fazal and the > Muhammadan chroniclers to Sikandar Butshikast. > Page 477 and 478, Para 121 > > *VARAHAMULA* > Varahamula, situated on the right river bank, has left its name to the > present town of Varahmul, usually called Baramulla by Punjabis and other > foreigners. The ancient temple of Varaha which seems to have been one of the > most famous shrines of Kashmir, is repeatedly mentioned by Kalhana. > According to the tradition of the local Purohits it stood near the site of > the present Kotithirtha, at the western extemity of the town and close to > the river bank. Some ancient Lingas and sculptures found at Kotitirtha may > have originally belonged to the temple. The destruction of its sacred image > is noted by Jonaraja in the reign of Sikandar Butshikast. > Page 482-483, Para 124 > > After India achieved freedom and Kashmir acceded to Union of India, temple > desecration was resumed. Temple lands, cremation grounds etc. of Hindus were > usurped for expansion of Islam. The famous Bhairavnath Temple of Chattabal, > Srinagar was got locked through police. The judicial case pending in court > concerning this temple was never allowed to be decided. Precious lands > around Hari Parbat hill, Durganag Temple of Srinagar and lands at several > Hindu placcs of worship in the valley were slowly and steadily turned into > lands under occupation of Muslim trusts (Maqboozai-Ahali-Islam). In 1967 > Shivala Temple, Chotta Bazar, Srinagar was desecrated. Again in 1984 Shri > Hanuman Temple at Hari Singh High Street was damaged and in the same year > Arya Samaj Temple of Wazir Bagh, Srinagar was burnt. From 1986 the law and > order situation in the valley deteriorated day by day and temple desecration > became order of the day. > > On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 7:17 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > >> Rage in Kashmir meets India's brute force >> >> http://in.reuters.com/article/topNews/idINIndia-35279820080902 >> >> By Alistair Scrutton >> >> SRINAGAR, India (Reuters) - The world's largest democracy locks up >> protest leaders without charge, shoots dozens of demonstrators dead, >> beats and intimidates ordinary citizens and raids homes without >> warrants. >> >> Welcome to Indian Kashmir, where the biggest separatist protests in >> two decades have clashed with the might of the state. >> >> "They are ruthless, trigger happy," said Ghulam Rasool Bhat, a >> labourer who says he was beaten by federal police after he tried to >> buy milk for his two nephews under a curfew in Srinagar, the summer >> capital of Indian Kashmir. >> >> He lay in a bed, both legs bandaged where a soldier, shouting "Get >> your milk from Pakistan" had smashed a rifle into his shins. His legs >> felt, he said, as if in a continuous cramp. >> >> Police have shot dead at least 35 Muslim protesters in the >> Muslim-majority Kashmir Valley after a row over land for a Hindu >> shrine spiralled into marches and strikes against Indian rule. >> >> More than 1,000 people have been wounded in clashes over three weeks, >> hospital officials and police say, with the Kashmir Valley often under >> curfew. Hundreds of people have suffered police baton beatings and >> bullet wounds, doctors say. >> >> The Indian government says its security forces have been fired upon by >> protesters on several occasions, and said authorities had "acted >> within the law and with restraint". >> >> Witnesses said some protesters had thrown stones at police, but said >> that most were marching peacefully. India's hardline response to the >> protests has highlighted what critics say is its lack of strategy to >> find a solution to a problem that has already sparked two wars between >> India and Pakistan, who both claim the region in full but rule it in >> parts. >> >> The crackdown may also be counter-productive. Residents say the deaths >> and violent crackdown have fuelled anger against India and boosted the >> separatist cause after years of relative peace. >> >> "The government of India does not have a strategy," said Siddharth >> Varadarajan, diplomatic editor of The Hindu newspaper. >> >> "It is relying heavily on coercion, arresting top and middle-level >> leaders in the hope it will break the back of unprecedented protests." >> >> In rare criticism last week, the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights >> called on India to avoid using excessive force. It drew a rebuke from >> India for interfering in its affairs. >> >> SIMMERING RESENTMENT >> >> For decades there has been simmering resentment at the hundreds of >> thousands of Indian troops stationed in Kashmir, making it one of the >> most militarised regions on earth. >> >> Roadblocks, verbal abuse from soldiers and raids on homes have long >> been a part of daily life. But as protests spiralled in August, the >> government sent in battalions of the Central Reserve Police Force >> (CRPF), a federal police force of mainly Hindus who do not speak >> Kashmiri. Strangers to Kashmir, most residents appear to despise them. >> >> In interviews in Srinagar and nearby villages, tales were similar: >> CRPF beatings, night raids on homes, verbal abuse and smashed windows. >> Life has been worse than in previous years. >> >> "They are not human," said Raja, a villager from Newtheed less than an >> hour's drive from the city. She said soldiers smashed up her home, >> shouting "We'll show you what freedom is". >> >> In Srinagar, the CRPF has taken over from the local Kashmiri police to >> enforce curfews and riot control. Residents complain of abuse at the >> slightest provocation -- selling bread, buying milk. >> >> One surgeon, who asked to remain anonymous because of fear of >> retribution from Indian authorities, said he has received around 400 >> wounded people in three weeks, 150 of them hit by bullets. >> >> "These are target killings. It's simple to see," said the doctor, >> explaining that many of the chest wounds were from weapons such as >> AK-47s. "Most of these were intended to kill. They were not to >> disperse a crowd." >> >> Shabir Ahmed Dar, 22, lay in one hospital bed after three operations. >> He was shot in the abdomen during a protest march to the Pakistani >> Kashmir border. >> >> "There was no warning from the police. They just fired." >> >> The police firings drew criticism from Human Rights Watch. "To end >> this cycle of tragedy, the government should order security forces to >> act with restraint," it said in a statement. >> >> It is not just a hardline response to street protests. Authorities >> have detained several separatist leaders without charge. Other >> leaders, many committed to democratic change and who publicly reject >> militant violence, were in hiding. >> >> Asiya Andrabi, chief of Kashmir's women's separatist group >> Dukhtaran-e-Milat (Daughters of the Muslim Faith) who had led some of >> the protests, has been detained under the Public Safety Act that >> allows for a year in jail without trial. >> >> The violence still pales in comparison with previous years when >> officials say more than 43,000 people have been killed in clashes >> involving Indian troops and Muslim militants since 1989. Human rights >> groups put the toll at about 60,000 dead or missing. >> >> Some analysts say authorities were in a difficult situation. >> >> "This is a place where security officials are getting attacked every >> second day," said Brahma Chellaney, professor of strategic studies at >> the New Delhi-based Centre for Policy Research, referring to the years >> of militant insurgency. >> >> For Shameema, a 35-year-old woman who sells bread, the fear of police >> was clear. She talked about how police smashed her and her family with >> batons for selling bread under curfew. Her husband displayed a wound >> to his head. >> >> She fell silent for a moment as a federal policeman official walked up >> to her shop, ominously tapping his baton. Then, realising he could not >> speak Kashmiri, she talked again. >> >> "I am scared," she said "But we have nowhere to go." >> >> (Additional reporting by Sheikh Mushtaq; Editing by Simon Denyer and >> Megan Goldin) >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ From shuddha at sarai.net Wed Sep 3 16:07:53 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 16:07:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord In-Reply-To: <2C17DAF3-FEB4-4D74-9136-731806A6470F@sarai.net> References: <2C17DAF3-FEB4-4D74-9136-731806A6470F@sarai.net> Message-ID: Dear all, The link to the Noorani article in the Greater Kashmir Newspaper in my earlier post got inadvertently truncated. Here is the correct link. http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp? Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1 Thanks, Tilak Upadhyay for pointing this out. best, Shuddha On 03-Sep-08, at 3:16 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: Dear all > Dear All, > > An unusual intensity of hunger for land unites corporations, state > agencies and shrine boards in India. Captains of Industry, > politicians and land hungry divines seem to be more interested in > acrage than in anything else. The Mahabharata mentions the burning of > the Khandava forest to appease a hungry god, inaugurating a long > history of burnt and erased forests and commons. It appears as it we > are surrounded now by 'hungry gods'. The Khandava-daha continues. > > Be it Chengara (thanks, Anivar Aravind for keeping us updated about > the land struggle in Kerala, where the ruling CPI(M) led Left Front > is intent on displacing indigenous communities from their land), or > Singur (where again, the ruling CPI(M) wants to gift land 'free' to a > gigantic corporation or Amarnath, - the issues - remain the same - > to do with state mediated acquisition of land, and the sequestering > of either cultivator's land, or a natural commons into some form of > 'gated' and 'fenced' land. > > There has been some premature media spin around the 'accord' that has > been reached with the Shree Amarnath Yatra Sangharsh Samiti based in > Jammu. On the face of it, the accord appears to grant a limited usage > right to the Shree Amarnath Shrine Board. On closer reading of the > text however, it becomes evident that the terms of this 'accord' are > actually even more invasive than was the case with the substance of > the original gubernatorial 'land transfer' order in May. > > I am enclosing below - an article by A. G. Noorani, a well known > legal historian and practitioner of constitutional law, titled > 'An Immoral and Illegal Accord' which was published in the Greater > Kashmir newspaper today. It is available on line at - > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp? > Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1 > > Noorani carefully reads the terms of the Amarnath Accord in this > article. As I had pointed out before on this list (in my second post > (dated 15th August, 2008) in the thread - 'Gun Salutes for August > 15' in response to Sonia Jabbar and Aditya Raj Kaul - the anger in > Kashmir has a lot to do with the arbitrary acquisition of land - I > had shown, using state government figures, how the equivalent of one > in ten fruit orchards can be said to be under the occupation of the > Armed Forces. The 'Amarnath Land Transfer' issue needs to be seen in > this context. > > As long as that anger (regarding the alienation of land) is not > addressed, the people of Kashmir will have no reason, in my > estimation, to think of themselves as anything but under a brutal and > unrelenting occupation. The current 'Amarnath Accord' in my view, > worsens the situation, and can alienate the people of Kashmir (for > the reasons that Noorani underlines below) even more. As such, it can > only be viewed as yet another provocation, yet another disaster, in > the long and undistinguished record of the Government of India's > tragic blundering on Kashmir. It cannot but prove to be divisive in a > situation that urgently requires the opposite. > > regards > > Shuddha > > ====================================================================== > == > ======================= > > An Immoral and Illegal Accord > Greater Kashmir, September 03, 2008 > A G NOORANI > > Srinagar, Sep 2: The accord between the Jammu and Kashmir government > and the Shri Amarnath Yatra Sangharsh Samiti on 31 August is far > worse than the government’s order only three months earlier on 26 > May. It grants the SAYSS concessions beyond what the May order did. > It is one-sided and marks an abject surrender to violence, blockade > and to communal forces. The differences between the order and accord > are glaring. Here is a list: > > 1. The order was made pursuant to a decision on 20 May by the cabinet > in which both Jammu and Kashmir were represented. The accord > completely ignores Kashmir where the land is to be given. Jammu alone > was represented. A week earlier, there was a clampdown in the Valley > and top leaders were arrested. > > 2. Even the controversial order nowhere used the word “exclusive”. > The SAYSS felt so emboldened as to demand it and threaten to wreck > the deal if it was not conceded. The government yielded in the early > hours of 31 August. Para 6A says that the Government “shall set aside > for use by Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board exclusively the land in > Baltal and Domail”. This order unknown anywhere in the world is > cloaked under a lie by calling it “traditionally under use for the > annual yatra purpose”. The traditional route for over a century is > the Pahalgam route. The Baltal route is a recent demand. It was > regarded by the Army and Nitish Sengupta Report as dangerous. It is > also unnecessary if the limit of yatris set by the Report (1 lakh) is > observed. > > 3. This violates the citizen’s fundamental right under Art. 19 (1) D > to move freely throughout India. The demand of exclusivity was not > made even in May 2008 or in decades earlier. It is pure communal > aggression using the yatra for political demonstration not religious > piety. > > 4. The duration of use is widened to cover pre and post yatra period. > Para 6 C first says that the land will be used “for the duration of > the yatra” including the period of preparations and winding up. But > the very next para has these sinister words: “The aforesaid land > shall be used according to the Board’s requirements from time to > time, including for the following”. There follow 9 measures including > construction, setting up of the sheds and shops etc. These can be > done even beyond the yatra period “from time to time” and “according > to the Board’s requirements”; may be all the year around. > > 5. Para 8 of the order insisted that the land “shall return” to the > State. This is dropped in the accord. This accomplishes S.K. Sinha’s > objective— permanent use the year round. > > 6. Also dropped totally is Para 4 on payment for user. > > 7. Dropped too is Para 6. An undertaking of “foolproof measures > against water pollution and Para 7 on payment of fine for damage to > the forest. There is a pious provision in accord Para 6 C (ix) among > the objectives of land user; namely “undertaking measures relating to > … preservation of ecology” etc. Breach entails no fine. > > 8. The order of 26 May was rescinded on 1 July. The accord will > require a fresh order to implement it. By itself the accord has no > legal force. Section 2(a) of the J&K Forest (Conservation) Act 1997 > says “the Government shall not, except on a resolution of the Council > of Ministers based on the advice of the Advisory Committee” > constituted under the Act “make any order directing that any forest > land or any portion thereof may be used for any non-forest purpose”. > The earlier phrase “Council of ministers” merely was revised by an > amendment in 2001 and the Forest Advisory Committee’s advice was > added and made mandatory. “Council of Ministers” is specific. It is > different from “J&K Government” whose powers vest now in the governor > alone. The law intentionally provides the resolution as a safeguard. > This Council can come into existence only after the next elections. > In any case the Forest Advisory Committees advice on 12 July 2007 > cannot apply to this new accord which must be vetted afresh by that > Committee. It was given before the Supreme Court’s final judgment in > the T M Godavarman case on 23 November 2007 which lays down the law > and makes important observations on balancing development with > protection of environment. Failure to consider it vitiates the > decision. Precisely based on misrepresentation of opinion of the > deputy CM Muzaffar Hussain Beg and advocate general Altaf Naik both > of which were given in entirely difference cases. > > The accord lacks legal efficacy as well as moral and political > legitimacy. Any order in its implementation will be void in law. It > is a pity that the state should bend all rules to buy peace with > communal forces including promise to consider compensation for law- > breakers. What of compensation to the Valley for the blockade? The > parivar in Jammu has already begun asking for more. The Government > has not bought peace but trouble. It is gunah-e-bey lazzat (sin > without any taste.) > > If the state can thus bend its knees before the Sangh parivar on an > issue like this, what hopes of justice can Kashmiris entertain when > it comes to restoring the raped Article 370 to a status of worth and > respect? > > END > > ====================================================================== > == > ======================= > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Sep 3 16:13:44 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 16:13:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Have you seen this face of the world's largest democracy? In-Reply-To: <9c06aab30809030317w19fdb3f0jf76e56442cefc5b0@mail.gmail.com> References: <9c06aab30809020647n3d7737f6w2dddd3791f25b54@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70809020858r7ddc9114vb9c48e3669450fce@mail.gmail.com> <9c06aab30809030317w19fdb3f0jf76e56442cefc5b0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70809030343i367c7e0ct3b07b567c3a5df9b@mail.gmail.com> Shivam, You posted some information and i posted some too. How does it pain you when I share some more information about Kashmir ? What is your definition of democracy ? What is your definition of secular ? And why does your definition of secular comes only when you have to discuss the army crack down in Kashmir or Gujarat ? Where does this definition disappear when you discuss the forced exodus of Kashmiri minorities [ Hindus ] from Kashmir ? Where does it disappear when you forget the burning of the whole bogey of Sabarmati Express ? Can we have a debate on your idea of secularism ? If you can , i may give you an measurement index ! Lastly , no Kashmiri [ Hindu ] has ever been trigger happy nor been happy at any Killing and neither have any one picked a knife or a gun.The blame for what is happening should go to the terrorists and their Hurriyat leaders. Pawan On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 3:47 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > So how many wrongs make a right? And how many such crackdowns, how > many Kashmiri Muslim lives do you think can compensate for these > aggressions? Is there a measurement index? > best > shivam > (citizen of a country that claims to be democratic, republic, secular > and other things) > > On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 9:28 PM, Pawan Durani > wrote: > > The following brief is based on the recorded findings of Historians > > including Muslim chroniclers and foreign non-Hindu travelers). > > > > *TAPER TEMPLES* > > Sikandar the iconoclast desecrated and destroyed this temple which was > built > > by Queen of Partapaditya II who reigned in Kashmir from 634 to 648 A.D. > > Zain-Ul-Abdin (1420-70) A.D. used stones and idols in the construction of > > Bund from the Naidkhal to Sopore. > > > > *SHANKARACHARYA MANDIR (SRINAGAR)* > > Noor Jehan, Queen of Jahangir, built the grand Mosque known as Pather > Masjid > > (Srinagar) with the sculptured beautiful stones which formed steps of the > > mandir right from River Jhelum to the top of the hill. > > > > *NARPARISTHAN MANDIR (SRINAGAR)* > > Built by Likhana-Naraindraditya who reigned Kashmir from 178 to 191 A.D. > has > > been turned into a Muslim ziarat called Narparisthan. > > > > *KALI MANDIR (SRINAGAR)* > > Qutab-Ud-din usurped it (1373-89) A.D. to be converted into a mosque in > > memory of Mir Syed Ali of Hamdan of Persia who had come to the Valley to > > establish Islam. Hindu King Pravarsena ll. had dedicated the Kali-Shrine > to > > the Goddess Kali (79-139 A.D.). > > > > *MAHASHRI MANDIR (SRINAGAR)* > > It was turned into a graveyard, Wife of Sikander was buried in its > interior. > > > > *SKANDA BHAWAN (SRINAGAR Downtown)* > > Its sacred springs and massive temple construction desecrated and spoilt, > it > > was christened as Ziarat of Pir Mohd. Basur. > > > > *TRIBHAWANA-SVAMIN (SRINAGAR Downtown)* > > This temple built by Chadrapida (684 to 693 A.D.) was laid to ruins and > its > > vast vicinity used as graveyard. > > > > *KSHANA-GANVISHVARA* > > Built in (950-58 A.D.) was desecrated. Its sculptured stones removed. > DIDDA- > > MATHA (Srinagar downtown) Temple converted into Tomb of Malik Sahib. > > > > *VIKRAMISHVERA (VICHARNAG)* > > Built (521-63 A.D.) It was destroyed by Sikander. Material utilized to > built > > a mosque nearby. > > > > *AMRITA BHAWANA* > > Constructed by Queen Magavahana (22 B.C -13 A.D.) There are other ruins > of > > Hindu temples in its vicinity which have been converted into Ziarats and > > burial grounds and nothing is known about their antiquity. > > > > *RANESHVARA (SHALIMAR GARDEN)* > > Built by King Ramadatiya (414-74 A.D) > > > > On the North Eastern corner of the Dal Lake, Pravarsena II, the founder > of > > Srinagar had built a Villa for a Hindu saint named Sukarna Swami. > Bernier, > > who visited Kashmir with Aurangzeb, gives an interesting account of the > > garden in his travels and says that the doors and pillars made of stone > were > > used in the garden during Mughal era had come from some of the idol > temples > > demolished by Shah Jehan and that it was impossible to estimate their > value. > > > > *MARTAND* > > Built by King Ramadeva (2936-3005 B.C) with large ornamented and > beautifully > > carved stones erecting it to the height of 50 yards. Regarding this > British > > Researcher Sir Walter Lawrence has remarked thus: > > > > While the old Hindu buildings defy time and weather, the Musalman shrines > > and mosques crumbled away. Other foreign travelers have recorded that > Hindu > > temples were built to endure for all time. Their solidity of construction > > and their gigantic size strike one with wonder that puny man could have > > built them. They often gazed upon them with amazement and lamented > bigoted > > Muslim fanatics who laid them to ruins with tremendous efforts. > > > > *TEMPLE OF BUZMA* > > It was usurped and converted into the Ziarat of Baba Bamdin. Another > temple > > close by was turned into the tomb of Rukh Din, disciple of Muslim Priest > > Bamdin. > > > > *SHRINES AROUND DAL LAKE* > > The slopes of the mountains overlooking the Dal lake have adorned many > > ancient shrines mercilessly destroyed by bigoted Muslim fanatics. > > > > *SHARDA UNIVERSITY & ACADEMY OF LEARNING (VIJAISHORI, now BIJBEHARA)* > > Sir Walter Lawrence records in his ''Vale of Kashmir'' that all books of > > Hindu learning which bigoted Muslims could lay their hands on were sunk > in > > the Dal lake and Sikander flattered himself that he had extirpated > Hinduism > > from the Valley. Alberuni an Arab scholar recording his visit to Kashmir > has > > stated that in all their grandeur the Hindus of Kashmir never slackened > in > > their ardent desire of doing that which was good and right. He also > records > > they were men of noble sentiments and noble bearing. Books of science, > > astronomy, space travel, medicine and the like were destroyed - The labor > of > > countless ages and countless researchers. > > > > We quote here under from world famous work of *Mr. M. A. Stein:* > > *Rajtarangini - Kalhana (Volume II)* > > Moti Lal Banarsidass Publishers Pvt. Ltd. > > Delhi, Reprint 1989 > > > > *HILL OF SARIKA* > > Eastern slopes of the latter are now occupied by extensive buildings > > connected with famous ziarats of Maqaddam Sahib and Akhun Mullah Shah. It > is > > probable that Mohammadan shrines have taken here place of Hindu religious > > buildings, just as at so many old sites of Kashmir. > > > > Close to the foot of the southern extremity of the hill is a rock which > has > > from ancient times received worship as an embodiment of Ganesa under the > > name of BHIMASVAMIN...... In fact, if we are to believe Jonaraja, the > rock > > image has changed its position yet a second time. This chronicler relates > > that BHIMASVAMIN from disgust at the iconoclasm of Sikander Butshikan had > > finally turned his back on city. > > Page 446, para 95 > > > > *TEMPLE OF SIVA PRAVARESVAPA* > > A short distance to the S. E. to the BHIMASVAMIN rock and outside Akbar's > > fortress, lies Ziarat of Baha-ud-din Sahib, built undoubtedly with the > > materials of an ancient temple. The cemetery which surrounds it contains > > also many ancient remains in its tombs and walls. At the S.W. corner of > this > > cemetery rises a ruined gateway, built of stone blocks of remarkable > size, > > and still of considerable height. This structure is traditionally > believed > > by the Srinagar Pandits to have belonged to the Temple of SIVA > PRAVARESVARA > > which Kalahana mentions as the first Shrine erected by PRAVARESVARA in > his > > new capital. > > > > ...... Blocks majoring up to sixteen feet in length, with a width and > > thickness equally imposing, were no convenient materials for the builders > of > > Muhammadan Ziarats, hammams etc. who have otherwise done so much to > efface > > the remains of ancient structures in Srinagar. The position of the ruins > is > > very central and might have well been chosen by the founder of > Pravarapura > > for prominent shrine in his new city. > > > > *POSITION OF RAMASVAMIN TEMPLE* > > Not far from Baha-ud-din Sahib's Ziarat, to the S.W. stands Jami Masjid, > the > > greatest Mosque of Srinagar. Around it numerous ancient remains attest > the > > former exist- ence of Hindu Temples. Proceeding still further to S.W, in > the > > midst of a thickly built city-quarter, we reach an ancient shrine which > has > > remained in a comparatively fair state of preservation probably owing to > its > > conversion into a ziarat. It is now supposed to mark the resting - place > of > > the saint styled Pir Haji Mohammed. It consists of an octagonal cellar of > > which high basement and the side walls are sill- preserved. The > quadrangular > > court in which it stands is enclosed by ancient walls and approached by > or > > ornamented gateways. The position of this shrine has suggested me its > > possible identity with the ancient temple of VISNU RANASVAMIN which > Kalhana > > mentions as founded by Ranaditya.This temple must have enjoyed > considerable > > celebrity up to a comparatively late period. Mankha refers to it an > object > > of his father's devotion, and Jonaraja in his comments on the passage > speaks > > of VISNU RANASVAMIN as one of the chief shrines of Pravarapura. The > evidence > > on which the suggested identification is based has been fully indicated > in > > note iii.453. > > Page 447, para 96 > > > > *SKANDABHAVANA* > > The site of vihara has been traced by me in the close vicinity of Ziarat > Pir > > Muhammad Basur. Certain ancient remains there were locally known and > > worshipped till the middle of the present century as a tirth sacred to > > Skanda. Near the SKANDABHAVANVIHARA there stood once the temple of > > Sivaparavaguptesvara referred to by Kalhana as a foundation of King > > Paravagupta. Page 448, Para 97 > > > > *SAMUDRAMATHA* > > A little higher up, if we can trust local tradition, stood the ancient > > temple of VARDHAMANESA mentioned already in King SAMDHIMAT'S reign. The > site > > so designated by the purohits of the adjoining mohalla is close to the > > Malyar ghat. I have referred already in a previous note to the curious > > manner in which an ancient linga supposed to be that of VARDHAMANESA was > > recovered a few years ago from a neighbouring mosque and a Mahatmaya > > composed for the newly established shrine. > > Page 450 Para 99 > > > > *JUSKAPURA* > > A tradition recorded already by General Cunninghum identifies this place > > (Zukur) with ancient JUSKAPURA. Kalhana names the place as a foundation > of > > Turuska (i.e Kusana ) King Juska who also built Vihara there. The > Muhammadan > > shrines and tombs of the village contain considerable remains of the > ancient > > buildings. Page 456, Para 104 > > > > *AMARESVARA* > > On the shore of the Anchar lies the large village of Amburher. It took > its > > name from a temple of Siva Amaresvara which Suryamati, Ananta's queen, > > endowed with Agraharas and a matha.The ancient slabs and sculptured > > fragments which I found in 1895 in and around the ziarat of Farrukhzad > > Sahib, may possibly have belonged to this temple. > > Page 456,457 Para 104 > > > > *VICHARNAG* > > It is held be a manifestation of Ailapattra Nag who is mentioned also in > > Nilamata. An earlier designation seems to be MUKAMULAKANAGA which is > given > > to the locality by Srivara and in the Tirthasamgraha. To the west of > village > > and near an inlet of Anchar are the ruins of three ancient temples now > > converted into ziarats and tombs. > > > > *TIRTHA OF SODARA* > > Close to the mosque of Sodarbal and by the lake shore are two pools fed > by > > perennial springs. These according to local tradition, were in old times > > visited by numerous piligrims. Now all recollection of this tirtha has > been > > lost among the Brahmins of Srinagar. But a name of the portion of the > > village area, Battapor, points to a former settlement of Battas or > Purohits. > > It is curious too that we find only half a mile from the village the > ziarat > > of Hazatbal, perhaps the most popular of all muhammadan shrines in the > > valley. It is supposed to be built over the remains of the > miracle-working > > Pir Dastagir Sahib. Is it possible that the presence of the rather > > ubiquitous saint at this particular spot had something to do with the > > earlier Hindu Tirtha? > > Page 457, Para 104 > > > > *PADMAPURA* > > The chief place of Vihi Pargana is now the town of Pampar, the ancient > > Padmapura, about 4 miles south west of Khunmoh. It was founded in the > > beginning of 9th century by Padma, the powerful uncle of puppet King > > Cippata/Jayapida. Padma is said by the chronicle to have also built a > temple > > of Visnu-Padmasvamin. To this may possibly have belonged the scanty > remains > > of an ancient temple which have been described by General Cunningham. > Close > > by is the Ziarat of Mir Muhammad Hamadani with some fine ancient columns > and > > ornamented slabs which are likely to have been taken from the temple. > Also > > other Ziarats of the town show similar remains. > > > > *SANARA* > > Only a mile to the south east of Khruv is the village of Sar, until > recently > > the seat of flourishing iron-industry, Kalhana mentions it by the name of > > Sanara as an Agrahara founded by King Sacinara------. The Ziarat of > Khwaja > > Khizar which stands here near small springs is built with the remains of > the > > Hindu Temple. Page 459, Para 105 > > > > About two miles south-west of Sar are found the well preserved ruins of a > > temple near the village Ladu (not marked on survey map). They have been > > described by Bishop Cowie, but I am unable to trace any old reference to > > this shrine in the texts I have examined. It is remarkable for having a > > circular cellar, the only one known to me in Kashmir. A small square > cellar > > to the east of this temple has been annexed to a neighbouring Ziarat. > > Page 459-60, Para 105 > > > > *CAKRADHARA* > > It was once the site of one of the oldest and most famous shrines of the > > volley, the temple of Visnu Cakradhara.... The plateau is still as > TSAKDAR > > UDAR.... The shrine of Cakaradhara is often mentioned as Tirtha of great > > sanctity. The temple seems to have been subsequently restored, and > Jonaraja > > mentions the statue of CAKRADHARA among those chief divine images which > > Sikandar Butshikan destroyed. > > Page 461-62, Para 107 > > > > *TEMPLE OF SIVA VIJAYESVARA* > > The old Linga of Siva Vijayesvara seems to have been destroyed by > Sikander > > Butshikast. > > Page 464, Para 109 > > > > *DISTRICT OF VAMAPARSVA* > > It forms the modern Pargana of Khovurpor. An old site is undoubtedly the > > large village of Hutmar. Its modern name seems to identify it with the > > SAKTAMATA which Ksemendra names as one of the stations in peregrinations > of > > his heroin Kankali. The chief mosque of the place is built with the > remains > > of a Hindu temple and preserves in its walls some sculptured fragments of > > remarkable beauty. > > > > *SHRINE OF BHIMAKESAVA* > > About a mile below Hutmar and on the bank of a branch of Lider lies the > > hamlet of Bumzu which contains an ancient structure of considerable > > historical interest. The Ziarat of Baba Bamdin Sahib is nothing but a > well > > preserved resting place of a Muhammadan saint. > > Page 465, Para 110 > > > > *TEMPLE OF MARTANDA* > > The ancient remains at the sacred spring itself are very scanty. All the > > more imposing are the ruins of the great temple which King Lalitaditya > > erected at a short distance of the presiding deity of the tirtha. The > > destruction of the sacred image is ascribed to Sikander Butshikast. > > Page 166, Para 111 > > > > *SAMANGASA* > > About four miles to the north east of Kother and on a branch of Arpath > river > > lies the populous village of Sangas, the ancient Samagasa......... some > old > > carved slabs built into the chief Ziarat of the place attest its > antiquity. > > Page 467,468, Para 112 > > > > *DISTRICT OF KARALA* > > In the lower portion of the district and on the left bank of Visoka, we > have > > the ancient Katimuso, the present village of Kaimuh. The place Is > mentloned > > by Kalhana as Agrahara, founded by Tunjina I, and contains some old > remains > > built into its chief Ziarat. > > Page 471, Para 116 > > > > *PARIHASAPURA* > > It has received its name from the ancient Parihasapura which King > > Lilitaditya had built as his captal. The identity of the names Parspor > and > > Parihasapura is evident on phonetic grounds, and was well known to the > > authors of the Persian abstracts of Rajatarangini. Yet curiously enough > the > > site of Parihasapura had remained unidentified until I visited the spot > in > > 1892 and traced the ruins of Lalitaditya's great structures as described > by > > Kalhana on the Plateau known as Paraspor Udar. > > > > The full destruction of the temples is attributed by Abu-l-fazal and the > > Muhammadan chroniclers to Sikandar Butshikast. > > Page 477 and 478, Para 121 > > > > *VARAHAMULA* > > Varahamula, situated on the right river bank, has left its name to the > > present town of Varahmul, usually called Baramulla by Punjabis and other > > foreigners. The ancient temple of Varaha which seems to have been one of > the > > most famous shrines of Kashmir, is repeatedly mentioned by Kalhana. > > According to the tradition of the local Purohits it stood near the site > of > > the present Kotithirtha, at the western extemity of the town and close to > > the river bank. Some ancient Lingas and sculptures found at Kotitirtha > may > > have originally belonged to the temple. The destruction of its sacred > image > > is noted by Jonaraja in the reign of Sikandar Butshikast. > > Page 482-483, Para 124 > > > > After India achieved freedom and Kashmir acceded to Union of India, > temple > > desecration was resumed. Temple lands, cremation grounds etc. of Hindus > were > > usurped for expansion of Islam. The famous Bhairavnath Temple of > Chattabal, > > Srinagar was got locked through police. The judicial case pending in > court > > concerning this temple was never allowed to be decided. Precious lands > > around Hari Parbat hill, Durganag Temple of Srinagar and lands at several > > Hindu placcs of worship in the valley were slowly and steadily turned > into > > lands under occupation of Muslim trusts (Maqboozai-Ahali-Islam). In 1967 > > Shivala Temple, Chotta Bazar, Srinagar was desecrated. Again in 1984 Shri > > Hanuman Temple at Hari Singh High Street was damaged and in the same year > > Arya Samaj Temple of Wazir Bagh, Srinagar was burnt. From 1986 the law > and > > order situation in the valley deteriorated day by day and temple > desecration > > became order of the day. > > > > On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 7:17 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् < > mail at shivamvij.com>wrote: > > > >> Rage in Kashmir meets India's brute force > >> > >> http://in.reuters.com/article/topNews/idINIndia-35279820080902 > >> > >> By Alistair Scrutton > >> > >> SRINAGAR, India (Reuters) - The world's largest democracy locks up > >> protest leaders without charge, shoots dozens of demonstrators dead, > >> beats and intimidates ordinary citizens and raids homes without > >> warrants. > >> > >> Welcome to Indian Kashmir, where the biggest separatist protests in > >> two decades have clashed with the might of the state. > >> > >> "They are ruthless, trigger happy," said Ghulam Rasool Bhat, a > >> labourer who says he was beaten by federal police after he tried to > >> buy milk for his two nephews under a curfew in Srinagar, the summer > >> capital of Indian Kashmir. > >> > >> He lay in a bed, both legs bandaged where a soldier, shouting "Get > >> your milk from Pakistan" had smashed a rifle into his shins. His legs > >> felt, he said, as if in a continuous cramp. > >> > >> Police have shot dead at least 35 Muslim protesters in the > >> Muslim-majority Kashmir Valley after a row over land for a Hindu > >> shrine spiralled into marches and strikes against Indian rule. > >> > >> More than 1,000 people have been wounded in clashes over three weeks, > >> hospital officials and police say, with the Kashmir Valley often under > >> curfew. Hundreds of people have suffered police baton beatings and > >> bullet wounds, doctors say. > >> > >> The Indian government says its security forces have been fired upon by > >> protesters on several occasions, and said authorities had "acted > >> within the law and with restraint". > >> > >> Witnesses said some protesters had thrown stones at police, but said > >> that most were marching peacefully. India's hardline response to the > >> protests has highlighted what critics say is its lack of strategy to > >> find a solution to a problem that has already sparked two wars between > >> India and Pakistan, who both claim the region in full but rule it in > >> parts. > >> > >> The crackdown may also be counter-productive. Residents say the deaths > >> and violent crackdown have fuelled anger against India and boosted the > >> separatist cause after years of relative peace. > >> > >> "The government of India does not have a strategy," said Siddharth > >> Varadarajan, diplomatic editor of The Hindu newspaper. > >> > >> "It is relying heavily on coercion, arresting top and middle-level > >> leaders in the hope it will break the back of unprecedented protests." > >> > >> In rare criticism last week, the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights > >> called on India to avoid using excessive force. It drew a rebuke from > >> India for interfering in its affairs. > >> > >> SIMMERING RESENTMENT > >> > >> For decades there has been simmering resentment at the hundreds of > >> thousands of Indian troops stationed in Kashmir, making it one of the > >> most militarised regions on earth. > >> > >> Roadblocks, verbal abuse from soldiers and raids on homes have long > >> been a part of daily life. But as protests spiralled in August, the > >> government sent in battalions of the Central Reserve Police Force > >> (CRPF), a federal police force of mainly Hindus who do not speak > >> Kashmiri. Strangers to Kashmir, most residents appear to despise them. > >> > >> In interviews in Srinagar and nearby villages, tales were similar: > >> CRPF beatings, night raids on homes, verbal abuse and smashed windows. > >> Life has been worse than in previous years. > >> > >> "They are not human," said Raja, a villager from Newtheed less than an > >> hour's drive from the city. She said soldiers smashed up her home, > >> shouting "We'll show you what freedom is". > >> > >> In Srinagar, the CRPF has taken over from the local Kashmiri police to > >> enforce curfews and riot control. Residents complain of abuse at the > >> slightest provocation -- selling bread, buying milk. > >> > >> One surgeon, who asked to remain anonymous because of fear of > >> retribution from Indian authorities, said he has received around 400 > >> wounded people in three weeks, 150 of them hit by bullets. > >> > >> "These are target killings. It's simple to see," said the doctor, > >> explaining that many of the chest wounds were from weapons such as > >> AK-47s. "Most of these were intended to kill. They were not to > >> disperse a crowd." > >> > >> Shabir Ahmed Dar, 22, lay in one hospital bed after three operations. > >> He was shot in the abdomen during a protest march to the Pakistani > >> Kashmir border. > >> > >> "There was no warning from the police. They just fired." > >> > >> The police firings drew criticism from Human Rights Watch. "To end > >> this cycle of tragedy, the government should order security forces to > >> act with restraint," it said in a statement. > >> > >> It is not just a hardline response to street protests. Authorities > >> have detained several separatist leaders without charge. Other > >> leaders, many committed to democratic change and who publicly reject > >> militant violence, were in hiding. > >> > >> Asiya Andrabi, chief of Kashmir's women's separatist group > >> Dukhtaran-e-Milat (Daughters of the Muslim Faith) who had led some of > >> the protests, has been detained under the Public Safety Act that > >> allows for a year in jail without trial. > >> > >> The violence still pales in comparison with previous years when > >> officials say more than 43,000 people have been killed in clashes > >> involving Indian troops and Muslim militants since 1989. Human rights > >> groups put the toll at about 60,000 dead or missing. > >> > >> Some analysts say authorities were in a difficult situation. > >> > >> "This is a place where security officials are getting attacked every > >> second day," said Brahma Chellaney, professor of strategic studies at > >> the New Delhi-based Centre for Policy Research, referring to the years > >> of militant insurgency. > >> > >> For Shameema, a 35-year-old woman who sells bread, the fear of police > >> was clear. She talked about how police smashed her and her family with > >> batons for selling bread under curfew. Her husband displayed a wound > >> to his head. > >> > >> She fell silent for a moment as a federal policeman official walked up > >> to her shop, ominously tapping his baton. Then, realising he could not > >> speak Kashmiri, she talked again. > >> > >> "I am scared," she said "But we have nowhere to go." > >> > >> (Additional reporting by Sheikh Mushtaq; Editing by Simon Denyer and > >> Megan Goldin) > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ > From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 3 16:25:11 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 03:55:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <821912.19661.qm@web57211.mail.re3.yahoo.com>   http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1     --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" Cc: "Sarai list" Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 4:07 PM Dear all, The link to the Noorani article in the Greater Kashmir Newspaper in my earlier post got inadvertently truncated. Here is the correct link. http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp? Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1 Thanks, Tilak Upadhyay for pointing this out. best, Shuddha On 03-Sep-08, at 3:16 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: Dear all > Dear All, > > An unusual intensity of hunger for land unites corporations, state > agencies and shrine boards in India. Captains of Industry, > politicians and land hungry divines seem to be more interested in > acrage than in anything else. The Mahabharata mentions the burning of > the Khandava forest to appease a hungry god, inaugurating a long > history of burnt and erased forests and commons. It appears as it we > are surrounded now by 'hungry gods'. The Khandava-daha continues. > > Be it Chengara (thanks, Anivar Aravind for keeping us updated about > the land struggle in Kerala, where the ruling CPI(M) led Left Front > is intent on displacing indigenous communities from their land), or > Singur (where again, the ruling CPI(M) wants to gift land 'free' to a > gigantic corporation or Amarnath, - the issues - remain the same - > to do with state mediated acquisition of land, and the sequestering > of either cultivator's land, or a natural commons into some form of > 'gated' and 'fenced' land. > > There has been some premature media spin around the 'accord' that has > been reached with the Shree Amarnath Yatra Sangharsh Samiti based in > Jammu. On the face of it, the accord appears to grant a limited usage > right to the Shree Amarnath Shrine Board. On closer reading of the > text however, it becomes evident that the terms of this 'accord' are > actually even more invasive than was the case with the substance of > the original gubernatorial 'land transfer' order in May. > > I am enclosing below - an article by A. G. Noorani, a well known > legal historian and practitioner of constitutional law, titled > 'An Immoral and Illegal Accord' which was published in the Greater > Kashmir newspaper today. It is available on line at - > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp? > Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1 > > Noorani carefully reads the terms of the Amarnath Accord in this > article. As I had pointed out before on this list (in my second post > (dated 15th August, 2008) in the thread - 'Gun Salutes for August > 15' in response to Sonia Jabbar and Aditya Raj Kaul - the anger in > Kashmir has a lot to do with the arbitrary acquisition of land - I > had shown, using state government figures, how the equivalent of one > in ten fruit orchards can be said to be under the occupation of the > Armed Forces. The 'Amarnath Land Transfer' issue needs to be seen in > this context. > > As long as that anger (regarding the alienation of land) is not > addressed, the people of Kashmir will have no reason, in my > estimation, to think of themselves as anything but under a brutal and > unrelenting occupation. The current 'Amarnath Accord' in my view, > worsens the situation, and can alienate the people of Kashmir (for > the reasons that Noorani underlines below) even more. As such, it can > only be viewed as yet another provocation, yet another disaster, in > the long and undistinguished record of the Government of India's > tragic blundering on Kashmir. It cannot but prove to be divisive in a > situation that urgently requires the opposite. > > regards > > Shuddha > > ====================================================================== > == > ======================= > > An Immoral and Illegal Accord > Greater Kashmir, September 03, 2008 > A G NOORANI > > Srinagar, Sep 2: The accord between the Jammu and Kashmir government > and the Shri Amarnath Yatra Sangharsh Samiti on 31 August is far > worse than the government’s order only three months earlier on 26 > May. It grants the SAYSS concessions beyond what the May order did. > It is one-sided and marks an abject surrender to violence, blockade > and to communal forces. The differences between the order and accord > are glaring. Here is a list: > > 1. The order was made pursuant to a decision on 20 May by the cabinet > in which both Jammu and Kashmir were represented. The accord > completely ignores Kashmir where the land is to be given. Jammu alone > was represented. A week earlier, there was a clampdown in the Valley > and top leaders were arrested. > > 2. Even the controversial order nowhere used the word “exclusive”. > The SAYSS felt so emboldened as to demand it and threaten to wreck > the deal if it was not conceded. The government yielded in the early > hours of 31 August. Para 6A says that the Government “shall set aside > for use by Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board exclusively the land in > Baltal and Domail”. This order unknown anywhere in the world is > cloaked under a lie by calling it “traditionally under use for the > annual yatra purpose”. The traditional route for over a century is > the Pahalgam route. The Baltal route is a recent demand. It was > regarded by the Army and Nitish Sengupta Report as dangerous. It is > also unnecessary if the limit of yatris set by the Report (1 lakh) is > observed. > > 3. This violates the citizen’s fundamental right under Art. 19 (1) D > to move freely throughout India. The demand of exclusivity was not > made even in May 2008 or in decades earlier. It is pure communal > aggression using the yatra for political demonstration not religious > piety. > > 4. The duration of use is widened to cover pre and post yatra period. > Para 6 C first says that the land will be used “for the duration of > the yatra” including the period of preparations and winding up. But > the very next para has these sinister words: “The aforesaid land > shall be used according to the Board’s requirements from time to > time, including for the following”. There follow 9 measures including > construction, setting up of the sheds and shops etc. These can be > done even beyond the yatra period “from time to time” and “according > to the Board’s requirements”; may be all the year around. > > 5. Para 8 of the order insisted that the land “shall return” to the > State. This is dropped in the accord. This accomplishes S.K. Sinha’s > objective— permanent use the year round. > > 6. Also dropped totally is Para 4 on payment for user. > > 7. Dropped too is Para 6. An undertaking of “foolproof measures > against water pollution and Para 7 on payment of fine for damage to > the forest. There is a pious provision in accord Para 6 C (ix) among > the objectives of land user; namely “undertaking measures relating to > … preservation of ecology” etc. Breach entails no fine. > > 8. The order of 26 May was rescinded on 1 July. The accord will > require a fresh order to implement it. By itself the accord has no > legal force. Section 2(a) of the J&K Forest (Conservation) Act 1997 > says “the Government shall not, except on a resolution of the Council > of Ministers based on the advice of the Advisory Committee” > constituted under the Act “make any order directing that any forest > land or any portion thereof may be used for any non-forest purpose”. > The earlier phrase “Council of ministers” merely was revised by an > amendment in 2001 and the Forest Advisory Committee’s advice was > added and made mandatory. “Council of Ministers” is specific. It is > different from “J&K Government” whose powers vest now in the governor > alone. The law intentionally provides the resolution as a safeguard. > This Council can come into existence only after the next elections. > In any case the Forest Advisory Committees advice on 12 July 2007 > cannot apply to this new accord which must be vetted afresh by that > Committee. It was given before the Supreme Court’s final judgment in > the T M Godavarman case on 23 November 2007 which lays down the law > and makes important observations on balancing development with > protection of environment. Failure to consider it vitiates the > decision. Precisely based on misrepresentation of opinion of the > deputy CM Muzaffar Hussain Beg and advocate general Altaf Naik both > of which were given in entirely difference cases. > > The accord lacks legal efficacy as well as moral and political > legitimacy. Any order in its implementation will be void in law. It > is a pity that the state should bend all rules to buy peace with > communal forces including promise to consider compensation for law- > breakers. What of compensation to the Valley for the blockade? The > parivar in Jammu has already begun asking for more. The Government > has not bought peace but trouble. It is gunah-e-bey lazzat (sin > without any taste.) > > If the state can thus bend its knees before the Sangh parivar on an > issue like this, what hopes of justice can Kashmiris entertain when > it comes to restoring the raped Article 370 to a status of worth and > respect? > > END > > ====================================================================== > == > ======================= > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 3 16:47:57 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 04:17:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri separatists are isolated from reality Colonel Dr Anil A Athale (retd) In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70809030122i55f6a77cocf56f13f0d8e69e5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <523874.80705.qm@web57213.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Colonel Dr Anil Athale makes too sweeping a generalisation and an incorrect one when he says:     """""" .......beginning in the 1980s .........The *burqa, *totally alien to Kashmir, made its appearance.""""""   Using 1947 as a reference point, the "burqa" was always worn by those Muslim women in Kashmir who chose to wear it. Admittedly it was by 'choice' and not by force/diktat/fatwa of organisations like Duktaraan-e-Millat.   Incidentally, one of the most famous photographs of the world and one of the most celebrated ones of the "Master" Henri Cartier-Bresson shows 'burqa' clad women in Srinagar, Kashmir, 1948.   Can be viewed at http://www.afterimagegallery.com/bressonsrinagar.htm   Kshmendra --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Pawan Durani wrote: From: Pawan Durani Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri separatists are isolated from reality Colonel Dr Anil A Athale (retd) To: "sarai list" Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 1:52 PM In a television debate, National Conference leader Farooq Abdullah mocked a Jammu Muslim who supported the agitation. Little does he or others realise that the Muslims of Jammu have also suffered from the stupid government policy of appeasing the separatists and kicking the nationalists. Just one example should suffice. School teachers' jobs in even remote Jammu regions go to Kashmiris from the valley. The teachers so appointed (at a good salary) are absent most of the time except on the first every month to collect their salary. The education levels among Jammu's Muslims are abysmal. In a tehsil of Mendhar in Poonch district, for example, there is not a single graduate! In Rajouri division, when I led a team of scientists ten years ago (in an attempt at bringing in horticulture technology to J&K to better people's life), we were aghast to see a soil testing laboratory that had a clean look about it -- all the equipment for soil testing was never used! This is the legacy of valley appeasement that the Jammu people revolted against. The Hurriyat and other separatists, marginalised by the peace process, jumped into the fray, cried wolf and went back to the bad old days of shutdowns and marches to the United Nations office in Srinagar[Images ]. A new innovation this time round was a call to march to and a threat to take their fruits to Pakistan. In a reversal of fortune the slogan of 'Azadi' (freedom) was replaced by the cry for merger with Pakistan. *Root causes of current unrest in Kashmir* The root cause of the present trouble in the valley is the fact that beginning in the 1980s the Sufi tradition of Kashmir has been on the retreat and in its place the virulent Waahabi/Deobandi Islam has become the dominant creed. Saudi money, the influx of mullahs from UP have dealt a death blow to the *Kashmiriyat* that took pride in tolerant Islam. The *burqa, *totally alien to Kashmir, made its appearance. Sufi shrines like the one of Baba Rishi at Tannemarg (on the way to Gulmarg) and Charar-e-Sharif were burnt down by the militants. Girls schools were destroyed and Ayesha Andrabi of Dukhtaran e Millat was emboldened to throw acid on girls daring to wear jeans. The State, such as it was, abdicated its responsibility and watched helplessly. This is the underlying cause of the present unrest -- neither the use of force by security forces nor the so-called economic blockade. The idea of *Kashmiriyat *today exists only in the minds of a lunatic fringe of candle carrying peaceniks and in the studios of politically correct television channels. But it will be wrong on the part of the Indian State and even more for the Kashmiris to think that they can repeat the shenanigans of the early 1990s. *Changed geopolitics* The world, specially the West, has changed radically since 1989-90.**The sole superpower was then in support of the Kashmiri cause, such as it was. BBC, the paragon of Western objectivity, repeatedly showed a clip of a toothless old Kashmiri woman shouting 'We want *Sharia' *in Kashmir. The US was bent upon teaching a lesson to erstwhile Soviet allies like India. Osama bin Laden was the blue-eyed boy of the Americans and Mujahids (Muslim religious fighters) were still basking in the afterglow of the victory over the Soviets in Afghanistan. The West had still to learn the disaster that awaited it by patronising the Waahabi creed. The attacks on the US on September 11, 2001, changed all that. One wonders if the Kashmiri separatists have noticed the absence of any comment from the West on the current happenings in Kashmir. Even the Pakistanis appeared surprised, though delighted, by the present happenings. The Pakistan Senate promptly passed a resolution condemning 'excessive' use of force by the Indians. It was comic since at that very time Pakistan was using helicopter gunships and fighter aircraft against its own tribals in the frontier area. The day the march to Muzaffarabad took place, over 50 Shia Muslims were killed in an attack on a hospital in Pakistan. Pakistanis were delighted that while Baluchistan and the tribal areas were in open revolt against the federal authorities, Kashmiris were clamouring to join them. Pakistanis were indeed grateful that at least someone in world thought that they were not a failed State. But despite some noises, even Pakistanis seemed aghast at the movement in Kashmir. Thanks to the peace process and people to people contacts, most Pakistanis now accept the secular credentials of India. The average Pakistani is keen to establish trade, cultural and educational contacts with India. *Is there a way forward?* The valley Kashmiris' outburst was and is like a reaction of a spoilt child who revolts irrationally when denied his demands. The reaction in Jammu was the first time ever that the valley people received a jolt. It is noteworthy that the troubles in J&K, of the separatist variety, are confined to Srinagar valley. It is the valley that is out of sync with the region and the world. There is no hope of any support to the irrational demands of a fundamentalist minority. Neither the US nor UK wants another safe heaven for the Al Qaeda[Images ] to come up in the subcontinent. Even China, which faces Muslim separatism, is wary. The Russians know what it is like to create another Chechenya. Kashmiri separatists are isolated from reality. India must sit tight and not succumb to pressure tactics. After relative peace that Kashmir has got used to, let there be a dose of unrest for the Kashmiri to come to his collective senses. *Colonel Dr Anil Athale (retd) is the Chhatrapati Shivaji Fellow at the United Services Institution, Delhi [Images ]**, and coordinator of the Pune-based Institute for Peace and Disarmament* _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 3 17:15:48 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 04:45:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] VOGUE INDIA: Starving for a $10,000 handbag In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <164556.74622.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> The NYT article with 2 pics   http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/01/business/worldbusiness/01vogue.html?_r=2&scp=1&sq=vogue%20india&st=cse&oref=slogin&oref=slogin     Reminds me of the innovative BENETTON campaigns :   http://press.benettongroup.com/ben_en/about/campaigns/list/     Kshmendra --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: From: Naeem Mohaiemen Subject: [Reader-list] VOGUE INDIA: Starving for a $10,000 handbag To: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 11:03 AM http://www.sajaforum.org/2008/09/vogue-india-fas.html A fashion spread in the latest Vogue India, in which poor, nameless Indians sport $10,000 handbags and $100 bibs, has catalyzed a profound reaction in the press and blogosphere. What is the acceptability, many are asking, of employing such jarring images, un-ironically, for the sake of commerce? >From UK's Telegraph: "The poor are always used as props, not as real people, which is why they haven't even been named in the magazine," said columnist Parsa Venkateshwar Rao. "Would they use homeless or hard up people in London for this kind of shoot?" <<< In The New York Times article which first brought widespread attention to the matter, Indian journalist Kanika Gahlaut is quoted: There's nothing "fun or funny" about putting a poor person in a mud hut in clothing designed by Alexander McQueen. "There are farmer suicides here, for God's sake," she said, referring to thousands of Indian farmers who have killed themselves in the last decade because of debt. <<< To which Vogue India editor Priya Tanna rebuts: "Lighten up...Vogue is about realizing the 'power of fashion' and the shoot was saying that "fashion is no longer a rich man's privilege. Anyone can carry it off and make it look beautiful. You have to remember with fashion, you can't take it that seriously. We weren't trying to make a political statement or save the world." <<< The online debate is mostly propelled by incredulity: Sepia Mutiny's Anna questions the nature of aspirational consumption that marks India's current moment: "Giving impoverished people $10,000 bags, Burberry bumbershoots and Fendi bibs for their children reeks of an appalling level of arrogance, an utterly clueless infatuation with 'edginess', and a heartless disregard for those for whom India does not yet shine. Way to keep it classy, VI. Also, just so you know, the text on that picture says, 'Baby's Day Out: It's never too early to start living in style.'" More outrage at Jossip... "Generally, we'd applaud the use of non-models in a fashion book. But we usually reserve our "thanks for not using anorexic models" applause for those who don't substitute them with "skinny because of malnourishment" persons." <<< <<< However, Daniel Altman, on his blog, Managing Globalization, insists Vogue's spread should be tolerated, as it only reflects the growing pains of a nascent but healthy liberal democracy: "But India is a democracy, and you can't simply tell people what to do with their money. Nor can you tell poor people what they should aspire to in life. Is a poor person somehow less deserving of a fancy handbag? Should they be prohibited from dreaming about the same luxuries as rich people enjoy?" <<< http://www.sajaforum.org/2008/09/vogue-india-fas.html _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Wed Sep 3 17:59:33 2008 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 17:59:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Photo Blog on Chengara Message-ID: <35f96d470809030529o67c1b924o293fe6c351be84e@mail.gmail.com> A Photoset on Chengara Struggle See Ajilal's Blog http://ajilal.blogspot.com/2008/08/changara-boosamarm.html From lalitambardar at hotmail.com Wed Sep 3 18:07:40 2008 From: lalitambardar at hotmail.com (Lalit Ambardar) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 12:37:40 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri separatists are isolated from reality Colonel Dr Anil A Athale (retd) In-Reply-To: <523874.80705.qm@web57213.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <6b79f1a70809030122i55f6a77cocf56f13f0d8e69e5@mail.gmail.com> <523874.80705.qm@web57213.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I think Col.Dr.Anil Athale's observation needs to be understood in the context of the main issue that pertains to the emergence of pan Islamic instincts in the valley in the eighties. Kashmiri Muslim women even now continue to work in the paddy fields along side the men folk & without burqa ( 'hope & pray Duktaraan-e-Millat isn't listening). LA > Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 04:17:57 -0700> From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> To: reader-list at sarai.net; pawan.durani at gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri separatists are isolated from reality Colonel Dr Anil A Athale (retd)> > Colonel Dr Anil Athale makes too sweeping a generalisation and an incorrect one when he says: > > """""" .......beginning in the 1980s .........The *burqa, *totally alien to Kashmir, made its appearance.""""""> > Using 1947 as a reference point, the "burqa" was always worn by those Muslim women in Kashmir who chose to wear it. Admittedly it was by 'choice' and not by force/diktat/fatwa of organisations like Duktaraan-e-Millat.> > Incidentally, one of the most famous photographs of the world and one of the most celebrated ones of the "Master" Henri Cartier-Bresson shows 'burqa' clad women in Srinagar, Kashmir, 1948.> > Can be viewed at http://www.afterimagegallery.com/bressonsrinagar.htm> > Kshmendra> > --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Pawan Durani wrote:> > From: Pawan Durani > Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri separatists are isolated from reality Colonel Dr Anil A Athale (retd)> To: "sarai list" > Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 1:52 PM> > In a television debate, National Conference leader Farooq Abdullah mocked a> Jammu Muslim who supported the agitation. Little does he or others realise> that the Muslims of Jammu have also suffered from the stupid government> policy of appeasing the separatists and kicking the nationalists. Just one> example should suffice. School teachers' jobs in even remote Jammu regions> go to Kashmiris from the valley. The teachers so appointed (at a good> salary) are absent most of the time except on the first every month to> collect their salary. The education levels among Jammu's Muslims are> abysmal. In a tehsil of Mendhar in Poonch district, for example, there is> not a single graduate!> > In Rajouri division, when I led a team of scientists ten years ago (in an> attempt at bringing in horticulture technology to J&K to better> people's> life), we were aghast to see a soil testing laboratory that had a clean look> about it -- all the equipment for soil testing was never used! This is the> legacy of valley appeasement that the Jammu people revolted against.> > The Hurriyat and other separatists, marginalised by the peace process,> jumped into the fray, cried wolf and went back to the bad old days of> shutdowns and marches to the United Nations office in> Srinagar[Images> ]. A new innovation this time round was a call to march to and a threat to> take their fruits to Pakistan. In a reversal of fortune the slogan of> 'Azadi' (freedom) was replaced by the cry for merger with Pakistan.> > *Root causes of current unrest in Kashmir*> > The root cause of the present trouble in the valley is the fact that> beginning in the 1980s the Sufi tradition of Kashmir has been on the retreat> and in its place the virulent Waahabi/Deobandi Islam has become the dominant> creed. Saudi money, the influx of mullahs from UP have dealt a death blow to> the *Kashmiriyat* that took pride in tolerant Islam. The *burqa, *totally> alien to Kashmir, made its appearance. Sufi shrines like the one of Baba> Rishi at Tannemarg (on the way to Gulmarg) and Charar-e-Sharif were burnt> down by the militants. Girls schools were destroyed and Ayesha Andrabi of> Dukhtaran e Millat was emboldened to throw acid on girls daring to wear> jeans. The State, such as it was, abdicated its responsibility and watched> helplessly. This is the underlying cause of the present unrest -- neither> the use of force by security forces nor the so-called economic blockade.> > The idea of *Kashmiriyat *today exists only in the minds of a lunatic fringe> of candle carrying peaceniks and in the studios of politically correct> television channels.> > But it will be wrong on the part of the Indian State and even more for the> Kashmiris to think that they can repeat the shenanigans of the early 1990s.> > *Changed geopolitics*> > The world, specially the West, has changed radically since 1989-90.**The> sole superpower was then in support of the Kashmiri cause, such as it was.> BBC, the paragon of Western objectivity, repeatedly showed a clip of a> toothless old Kashmiri woman shouting 'We want *Sharia' *in Kashmir.> The US> was bent upon teaching a lesson to erstwhile Soviet allies like India. Osama> bin Laden was the blue-eyed boy of the Americans and Mujahids (Muslim> religious fighters) were still basking in the afterglow of the victory over> the Soviets in Afghanistan. The West had still to learn the disaster that> awaited it by patronising the Waahabi creed.> > The attacks on the US on September 11, 2001, changed all that.> > One wonders if the Kashmiri separatists have noticed the absence of any> comment from the West on the current happenings in Kashmir. Even the> Pakistanis appeared surprised, though delighted, by the present happenings.> The Pakistan Senate promptly passed a resolution condemning 'excessive'> use> of force by the Indians. It was comic since at that very time Pakistan was> using helicopter gunships and fighter aircraft against its own tribals in> the frontier area. The day the march to Muzaffarabad took place, over 50> Shia Muslims were killed in an attack on a hospital in Pakistan. Pakistanis> were delighted that while Baluchistan and the tribal areas were in open> revolt against the federal authorities, Kashmiris were clamouring to join> them. Pakistanis were indeed grateful that at least someone in world thought> that they were not a failed State.> > But despite some noises, even Pakistanis seemed aghast at the movement in> Kashmir. Thanks to the peace process and people to people contacts, most> Pakistanis now accept the secular credentials of India. The average> Pakistani is keen to establish trade, cultural and educational contacts with> India.> > *Is there a way forward?*> > The valley Kashmiris' outburst was and is like a reaction of a spoilt child> who revolts irrationally when denied his demands. The reaction in Jammu was> the first time ever that the valley people received a jolt. It is noteworthy> that the troubles in J&K, of the separatist variety, are confined to> Srinagar valley. It is the valley that is out of sync with the region and> the world. There is no hope of any support to the irrational demands of a> fundamentalist minority.> > Neither the US nor UK wants another safe heaven for the Al> Qaeda[Images> ] to come up in the subcontinent. Even China, which faces Muslim separatism,> is wary. The Russians know what it is like to create another Chechenya.> > Kashmiri separatists are isolated from reality. India must sit tight and not> succumb to pressure tactics. After relative peace that Kashmir has got used> to, let there be a dose of unrest for the Kashmiri to come to his collective> senses.> > *Colonel Dr Anil Athale (retd) is the Chhatrapati Shivaji Fellow at the> United Services Institution, Delhi> [Images> ]**, and coordinator of the Pune-based Institute for Peace and Disarmament*> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in> the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Search for videos of Bollywood, Hollywood, Mollywood and every other wood, only on Live.com http://www.live.com/?scope=video&form=MICOAL From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 3 18:44:17 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 06:14:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmir-Tanks on busy market squares - Harsh Mander Message-ID: <747637.33384.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> The well known personality Harsh Mander is quoted as saying:   """"""" Even in small towns, you encounter even today bullet-proof tanks stationed on busy market squares ...... """""   Would someone please let me know if this is true. Are there 'tanks' stationed on busy market squares even in the small towns of Kashmir? This is the first time I have heard of this.   Ex IAS cadre and current Director Action Aid India, Harsh Mander is not expected to speak untruths. He is unlikely to mistake some other vehicle for being a "tank".   If it is true then it is shameful.   If it is not true, then Harsh Mander was being deliberately and deviously deceitful. "Tanks" being stationed at busy market squares 'even in small towns' presents quite a damning picture.   The quote is from a Press Release (02/09/08) by 'Kashmiri American Council'  about a seminar in Columbus, Ohio, USA . It was at a convention of ISNA (Islamic Society of North America).   Kshmendra From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Wed Sep 3 18:58:16 2008 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 18:58:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmir-Tanks on busy market squares - Harsh Mander In-Reply-To: <747637.33384.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: A common mistake that people make when they come across armoured vehicles with LMGs mounted on top. > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Reply-To: > Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 06:14:17 -0700 (PDT) > To: sarai list > Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmir-Tanks on busy market squares - Harsh Mander > > The well known personality Harsh Mander is quoted as saying:   """"""" Even in > small towns, you encounter even today bullet-proof tanks stationed on busy > market squares ...... """""   Would someone please let me know if this is > true. Are there 'tanks' stationed on busy market squares even in the small > towns of Kashmir? This is the first time I have heard of this.   Ex IAS cadre > and current Director Action Aid India, Harsh Mander is not expected to speak > untruths. He is unlikely to mistake some other vehicle for being a > "tank".   If it is true then it is shameful.   If it is not true, then Harsh > Mander was being deliberately and deviously deceitful. "Tanks" being stationed > at busy market squares 'even in small towns' presents quite a damning > picture.   The quote is from a Press Release (02/09/08) by 'Kashmiri American > Council'  about a seminar in Columbus, Ohio, USA . It was at a convention of > ISNA (Islamic Society of North America).   Kshmendra > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an > email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From lalitambardar at hotmail.com Wed Sep 3 19:07:25 2008 From: lalitambardar at hotmail.com (Lalit Ambardar) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 13:37:25 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord In-Reply-To: <821912.19661.qm@web57211.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <821912.19661.qm@web57211.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: It is not surprising.AG Noorani is a known sympathiser of the Kashmiri pan Islamists & their cause. He ran a campaign series in support of the separatists in HT for years .The very fact that Noorani has chosen to call Jammuites as 'communal forces' & 'parivar' & the accord itself as 'gunah-e-bey lazzat' & describe those who attempt to seek "azadi -bara -e -Islam" as 'victims' says it all. Noorani once went overboard in “ don’t be fence-sitters " (HT New Delhi/May 8, 2007) in his appreciation of Sayad Sallahudin of HM & the al-Qeada affiliate LeT. In a bizarre coincidence , the day LeT chief allegedly assured some Gen. Patankar of his willingness to come to India for talks (...????....) as claimed by Noorani in the article , that very day Hafeez Sayad confessed to the reporters in Islamabad about the existence of terrorist infrastructure in Pakistan & declared his resolve to carry on the 'jihad' to its logical conclusion (Ref. TNN/ Times of India, DEL/May8' 07/ page no.13). LA > Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 03:55:11 -0700> From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> To: shuddha at sarai.net> CC: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord> > > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> > > > > --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote:> > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord> To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > Cc: "Sarai list" > Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 4:07 PM> > Dear all,> > The link to the Noorani article in the Greater Kashmir Newspaper in > my earlier post got inadvertently truncated. Here is the correct link.> > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp? > Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> > Thanks, Tilak Upadhyay for pointing this out.> > best,> > Shuddha> > On 03-Sep-08, at 3:16 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: Dear all> > > Dear All,> >> > An unusual intensity of hunger for land unites corporations, state> > agencies and shrine boards in India. Captains of Industry,> > politicians and land hungry divines seem to be more interested in> > acrage than in anything else. The Mahabharata mentions the burning of> > the Khandava forest to appease a hungry god, inaugurating a long> > history of burnt and erased forests and commons. It appears as it we> > are surrounded now by 'hungry gods'. The Khandava-daha continues.> >> > Be it Chengara (thanks, Anivar Aravind for keeping us updated about> > the land struggle in Kerala, where the ruling CPI(M) led Left Front> > is intent on displacing indigenous communities from their land), or> > Singur (where again, the ruling CPI(M) wants to gift land 'free'> to a> > gigantic corporation or Amarnath, - the issues - remain the same -> > to do with state mediated acquisition of land, and the sequestering> > of either cultivator's land, or a natural commons into some form of> > 'gated' and 'fenced' land.> >> > There has been some premature media spin around the 'accord' that> has> > been reached with the Shree Amarnath Yatra Sangharsh Samiti based in> > Jammu. On the face of it, the accord appears to grant a limited usage> > right to the Shree Amarnath Shrine Board. On closer reading of the> > text however, it becomes evident that the terms of this 'accord'> are> > actually even more invasive than was the case with the substance of> > the original gubernatorial 'land transfer' order in May.> >> > I am enclosing below - an article by A. G. Noorani, a well known> > legal historian and practitioner of constitutional law, titled> > 'An Immoral and Illegal Accord' which was published in the Greater> > Kashmir newspaper today. It is available on line at -> > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?> > Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> >> > Noorani carefully reads the terms of the Amarnath Accord in this> > article. As I had pointed out before on this list (in my second post> > (dated 15th August, 2008) in the thread - 'Gun Salutes for August> > 15' in response to Sonia Jabbar and Aditya Raj Kaul - the anger in> > Kashmir has a lot to do with the arbitrary acquisition of land - I> > had shown, using state government figures, how the equivalent of one> > in ten fruit orchards can be said to be under the occupation of the> > Armed Forces. The 'Amarnath Land Transfer' issue needs to be seen> in> > this context.> >> > As long as that anger (regarding the alienation of land) is not> > addressed, the people of Kashmir will have no reason, in my> > estimation, to think of themselves as anything but under a brutal and> > unrelenting occupation. The current 'Amarnath Accord' in my view,> > worsens the situation, and can alienate the people of Kashmir (for> > the reasons that Noorani underlines below) even more. As such, it can> > only be viewed as yet another provocation, yet another disaster, in> > the long and undistinguished record of the Government of India's> > tragic blundering on Kashmir. It cannot but prove to be divisive in a> > situation that urgently requires the opposite.> >> > regards> >> > Shuddha> >> > ====================================================================== > > ==> > =======================> >> > An Immoral and Illegal Accord> > Greater Kashmir, September 03, 2008> > A G NOORANI> >> > Srinagar, Sep 2: The accord between the Jammu and Kashmir government> > and the Shri Amarnath Yatra Sangharsh Samiti on 31 August is far> > worse than the government’s order only three months earlier on 26> > May. It grants the SAYSS concessions beyond what the May order did.> > It is one-sided and marks an abject surrender to violence, blockade> > and to communal forces. The differences between the order and accord> > are glaring. Here is a list:> >> > 1. The order was made pursuant to a decision on 20 May by the cabinet> > in which both Jammu and Kashmir were represented. The accord> > completely ignores Kashmir where the land is to be given. Jammu alone> > was represented. A week earlier, there was a clampdown in the Valley> > and top leaders were arrested.> >> > 2. Even the controversial order nowhere used the word “exclusive”.> > The SAYSS felt so emboldened as to demand it and threaten to wreck> > the deal if it was not conceded. The government yielded in the early> > hours of 31 August. Para 6A says that the Government “shall set aside> > for use by Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board exclusively the land in> > Baltal and Domail”. This order unknown anywhere in the world is> > cloaked under a lie by calling it “traditionally under use for the> > annual yatra purpose”. The traditional route for over a century is> > the Pahalgam route. The Baltal route is a recent demand. It was> > regarded by the Army and Nitish Sengupta Report as dangerous. It is> > also unnecessary if the limit of yatris set by the Report (1 lakh) is> > observed.> >> > 3. This violates the citizen’s fundamental right under Art. 19 (1) D> > to move freely throughout India. The demand of exclusivity was not> > made even in May 2008 or in decades earlier. It is pure communal> > aggression using the yatra for political demonstration not religious> > piety.> >> > 4. The duration of use is widened to cover pre and post yatra period.> > Para 6 C first says that the land will be used “for the duration of> > the yatra” including the period of preparations and winding up. But> > the very next para has these sinister words: “The aforesaid land> > shall be used according to the Board’s requirements from time to> > time, including for the following”. There follow 9 measures including> > construction, setting up of the sheds and shops etc. These can be> > done even beyond the yatra period “from time to time” and “according> > to the Board’s requirements”; may be all the year around.> >> > 5. Para 8 of the order insisted that the land “shall return” to the> > State. This is dropped in the accord. This accomplishes S.K. Sinha’s> > objective— permanent use the year round.> >> > 6. Also dropped totally is Para 4 on payment for user.> >> > 7. Dropped too is Para 6. An undertaking of “foolproof measures> > against water pollution and Para 7 on payment of fine for damage to> > the forest. There is a pious provision in accord Para 6 C (ix) among> > the objectives of land user; namely “undertaking measures relating to> > … preservation of ecology” etc. Breach entails no fine.> >> > 8. The order of 26 May was rescinded on 1 July. The accord will> > require a fresh order to implement it. By itself the accord has no> > legal force. Section 2(a) of the J&K Forest (Conservation) Act 1997> > says “the Government shall not, except on a resolution of the Council> > of Ministers based on the advice of the Advisory Committee”> > constituted under the Act “make any order directing that any forest> > land or any portion thereof may be used for any non-forest purpose”.> > The earlier phrase “Council of ministers” merely was revised by an> > amendment in 2001 and the Forest Advisory Committee’s advice was> > added and made mandatory. “Council of Ministers” is specific. It is> > different from “J&K Government” whose powers vest now in the> governor> > alone. The law intentionally provides the resolution as a safeguard.> > This Council can come into existence only after the next elections.> > In any case the Forest Advisory Committees advice on 12 July 2007> > cannot apply to this new accord which must be vetted afresh by that> > Committee. It was given before the Supreme Court’s final judgment in> > the T M Godavarman case on 23 November 2007 which lays down the law> > and makes important observations on balancing development with> > protection of environment. Failure to consider it vitiates the> > decision. Precisely based on misrepresentation of opinion of the> > deputy CM Muzaffar Hussain Beg and advocate general Altaf Naik both> > of which were given in entirely difference cases.> >> > The accord lacks legal efficacy as well as moral and political> > legitimacy. Any order in its implementation will be void in law. It> > is a pity that the state should bend all rules to buy peace with> > communal forces including promise to consider compensation for law-> > breakers. What of compensation to the Valley for the blockade? The> > parivar in Jammu has already begun asking for more. The Government> > has not bought peace but trouble. It is gunah-e-bey lazzat (sin> > without any taste.)> >> > If the state can thus bend its knees before the Sangh parivar on an> > issue like this, what hopes of justice can Kashmiris entertain when> > it comes to restoring the raped Article 370 to a status of worth and> > respect?> >> > END> >> > ====================================================================== > > ==> > =======================> >> >> >> > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > Shuddhabrata Sengupta> The Sarai Programme at CSDS> Raqs Media Collective> shuddha at sarai.net> www.sarai.net> www.raqsmediacollective.net> > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in> the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Want to explore the world? Visit MSN Travel for the best deals. http://in.msn.com/coxandkings From indersalim at gmail.com Wed Sep 3 19:14:15 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 19:14:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions In-Reply-To: <594974.79041.qm@web53601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <448388.35174.qm@web51404.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <594974.79041.qm@web53601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70809030644g483a5b2en985bbcd466c44c9b@mail.gmail.com> Picasso said, if it is possible to explian, it is futile to paint. even if i we gnore picasso, who is an old hat in modern art now, let alone hussain sahib who is immensely supported by investors, and 'post colonialism' as theoritical justificaioin to do whatever he or we sometimes are doing which can pass as derivate at the best. what is education or what is not , what is offensive or what is not, is difficult to explain, if one chases the text, and its meaning profoundly... what we forget also is the fact that what we see are phtographs of the the original .and is photogaphy representing real, if so then we have truly disappeared from the face of this earth. and it does not matter if there is hussain or not, there is book by Jean Baudilard ' conspiracy of art' which speaks the contemporary art practices , and that makes us feel that the whole world is in fact a piece of modern art work , and we are not there, simple not part of it. the question of relevance of hussain in our social structures is open to this sort of criticism, but not once it lands as amunition in the hands of fanatics. love is On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 7:39 AM, Rahul Asthana wrote: > > OK, I think we are almost on the same page now.If by educating you mean explaining;then I agree.Hussein might explain why his painting was not meant to offend,alternatively he may realize how and to what degree its offensive, and he may decide its not worth it.It should work both ways. > I have no stake in whatever is decided,but as Kshmendra has mentioned,the emphasis should be on understanding and respecting the other,not educating them. > > --- On Tue, 9/2/08, Yousuf wrote: > > > From: Yousuf > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions > > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" , rahul_capri at yahoo.com > > Cc: "Sarai list" > > Date: Tuesday, September 2, 2008, 11:03 AM > > Dear Rahul > > Why are you so scared of the word "education", > > and why are you seeing it in such limited terms. If you look > > at my last mail, I agreed that your solution #3 is good and > > I'd be happy if it works. But I emphasized about > > dialogue as part of the education. Don't you think > > dialogue and communication between the two conflicting > > parties would be an integral part of even your solution? > > > > What would you have to say about a counselor/psychiatrist > > who tries to resolve conflicts say between two spouses. > > His/her main role is to (a) know each side's story, and > > then (b) inform each spouse about the other's problem > > which was actually missing between them due to long gaps of > > non-communication. Most conflicts in the family or society > > occur because of the distance we create between two parties > > - we fear each other, imagine all sorts of strange notions > > about each other and strengthen the hatred about each other. > > If only we talked, we could have realized that much of our > > fears were baseless. > > > > Hence I am simply talking about creating bridges between > > two parties through communication. Why can't we for > > instance have a meeting/workshop between Hussain and the > > religious fanatics where they tell each other's story > > and try to explain why each party needs to be sensitive to > > others' feelings. I know this will not entirely remove > > either party's deep prejudices, and may lead to further > > flaring up, but some moderation may also happen. But I would > > again emphasize that those thoughts and ideas of both sides > > which are required for the dialogue should at least be > > available for everyone to see and understand. For instance, > > we only get to see a lot of hate-propaganda from the > > religious fanatics against the artist, but never see any > > effort from Hussain or the art fraternity to explain what > > this art is all about, and why he makes what he makes. The > > artist thinks that he/she doesn't need to explain > > anything. > > > > I am sorry, but I don't follow terms like reductionism, > > teleology, deontology, so maybe I am sounding a bit rigid to > > you. > > > > Yousuf > > > > --- On Tue, 9/2/08, Rahul Asthana > > wrote: > > > > > From: Rahul Asthana > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and > > Transgressions > > > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > > , ysaeed7 at yahoo.com > > > Cc: "Sarai list" > > > > > Date: Tuesday, September 2, 2008, 2:01 AM > > > Dear Yousuf, > > > Your argument is what I call reductionist (from > > > dictionary.com=2.the practice of simplifying a complex > > idea, > > > issue, condition, or the like, esp. to the point of > > > minimizing, obscuring, or distorting it.). > > > When you talk about "millions of issues in our > > society > > > which people used to take with orthodox > > attitude",you > > > are basically creating a straw man.Many orthodox > > practices > > > have to be given up;we have no difference on that. > > > When two deontologies collide,we have to present a > > > teleological argument in favor of one or the other.In > > other > > > words,when two value frameworks reach conflicting > > position > > > on an issue,we have two ways we can approach the > > > conflict.The one who favors one value framework should > > > present a comparison of the two frameworks in terms of > > > social cost-benefit,or,The one who favors one value > > > framework tries to educate the other one to their > > system > > > just because its "better".Do you see the > > > difference between the two? > > > Now, in an engagement of two groups on perceived > > social > > > cost-benefit,there will be conflicts.Its hard to > > imagine how > > > two groups will have same perception of social > > > cost-benefit.But at least we would be trying to > > resolve > > > issues within a teleological framework which is a lot > > better > > > than "my way is better than your way and you have > > to be > > > educated to my way". > > > > > > Regards > > > Rahul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > gate social cost-benefit,and not on the basis of what > > one > > > group thinks is right. > > > > > > --- On Mon, 9/1/08, Yousuf > > wrote: > > > > > > > From: Yousuf > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and > > > Transgressions > > > > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > > > , rahul_capri at yahoo.com > > > > Cc: "Sarai list" > > > > > > > Date: Monday, September 1, 2008, 9:12 AM > > > > Dear Rahul > > > > I understand your logic, but I think your > > alternative > > > no.3 > > > > is too idealized and utopian to achieve, although > > I > > > would > > > > love if it works. Also, it may apply only to some > > > > situations, not all. For instance, if a group of > > > people > > > > thinks that women are inferior and should remain > > > inside > > > > homes, or that we should ruin the environment by > > > cutting > > > > trees, wasting water and fuel, would you allow > > them to > > > > believe and act on this? You may call it my > > > condescending > > > > attitude, but why is it that we have managed to > > bring > > > an > > > > awareness and "reform" today about so > > many > > > > millions of issues in our society which people > > used to > > > take > > > > with orthodox attitude. I am talking about gender > > > equality, > > > > environment, education, health issues (although > > it is > > > still > > > > not enough). Nobody is born with politically > > correct > > > genes - > > > > we all acquire things as we grow. So what's > > the > > > big deal > > > > for instance about having arts appreciation as > > part of > > > the > > > > school curriculum or TV programmes. Should we > > allow > > > our > > > > mainstream media to remain condescending then? > > Why is > > > > television changing the attitude of people - why > > is > > > our > > > > society becoming more consumerist and aggressive > > and > > > > prejudiced? > > > > Look my condescending solution doesn't > > involve > > > simply > > > > education - I am talking about dialogue and > > awareness, > > > and > > > > not talking down somebody's throat which the > > TV > > > does > > > > today. > > > > > > > > Yousuf > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 8/31/08, Rahul Asthana > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: Rahul Asthana > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and > > > > Transgressions > > > > > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > > > > , ysaeed7 at yahoo.com > > > > > Cc: "Sarai list" > > > > > > > > > Date: Sunday, August 31, 2008, 11:54 PM > > > > > Yousuf, > > > > > > > > > > I think i failed in getting my point > > across.No > > > amount > > > > of > > > > > "education" would make > > Hussein's > > > art > > > > > appreciated by some,and those who are > > offended by > > > > > Hussein's art are no less > > > "educated" > > > > than you > > > > > or me. > > > > > Unless you get rid of your condescension > > about > > > > educating > > > > > people about what they should or > > shouldn't > > > get > > > > offended > > > > > by,any discussion about solution to > > conflicts > > > like > > > > this is a > > > > > non-starter. > > > > > > > > > > I am going to make one last try though. > > > > > > > > > > Say there are two groups A and B,with > > different > > > value > > > > > systems.A is offended by an act X and B is > > > > not,apparently > > > > > due to their different value systems. B > > > encourages X > > > > and > > > > > this increases tensions in a society where A > > and > > > B > > > > live > > > > > together.Lets see what are the possible > > > solutions. > > > > > > > > > > 1.Both A and B tell each other to go take a > > hike > > > and > > > > they > > > > > would do according to how they feel fit. > > > > > 2.Both A and B are sure that their value > > systems > > > are > > > > > superior and they try to convert each other > > to > > > their > > > > own > > > > > view points through dialog etc. > > > > > 3.Both A and B recognize that there are > > > irreconcilable > > > > > differences in their world views.They also > > > recognize > > > > that > > > > > they would respect the differences and try > > to > > > honor > > > > them to > > > > > the extent possible while also trying to > > achieve > > > their > > > > own > > > > > goals through whatever means possible. > > > > > > > > > > If liberal fanatics like you will keep on > > > engaging in > > > > > #2,(which in my opinion is even worse than > > #1 > > > because > > > > #1 > > > > > does not involve condescension) that you are > > > doing > > > > right > > > > > now,you will always enable religious > > fanatics > > > from the > > > > other > > > > > side who will try to convert you to their > > view > > > > point.Why is > > > > > their stand less valid than yours? > > > > > If you engage in #3 ,you will enable > > moderates > > > from > > > > the > > > > > other side who will listen to you if you > > listen > > > to > > > > them. > > > > > The big leap of understanding that you need > > to > > > make is > > > > that > > > > > there can be two internally consistent value > > > systems > > > > which > > > > > will lead to opposing positions on many > > > issues,and > > > > both > > > > > these value systems are equally valid. > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > Rahul > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 8/31/08, Yousuf > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > From: Yousuf > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life > > and > > > > > Transgressions > > > > > > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > > > > > , > > rahul_capri at yahoo.com > > > > > > Cc: "Sarai list" > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Sunday, August 31, 2008, 9:40 AM > > > > > > When I mention education, I primarily > > > include > > > > media in > > > > > it. > > > > > > But the media is careless and works > > only on > > > the > > > > > diktats of > > > > > > industry and politicians. So the prime > > > > responsibility > > > > > (of > > > > > > making sure that their art is > > appreciated) > > > falls > > > > on > > > > > the arts > > > > > > fraternity itself. At least until we > > find a > > > > better > > > > > solution. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 8/30/08, Rahul Asthana > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Rahul Asthana > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of > > Life > > > and > > > > > > Transgressions > > > > > > > To: "Shuddhabrata > > Sengupta" > > > > > > , > > ysaeed7 at yahoo.com > > > > > > > Cc: "Sarai list" > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Saturday, August 30, 2008, > > 9:58 > > > PM > > > > > > > "They have not been educated > > to > > > > appreciate > > > > > the > > > > > > nuances > > > > > > > of the medium or the > > message." > > > > > > > Yousuf, I am sorry but that's > > > > > condescending.By the > > > > > > same > > > > > > > token a religious person can say > > that > > > the > > > > artist > > > > > has > > > > > > not > > > > > > > been taught the nuances of > > religious > > > > > sensibilities.My > > > > > > point > > > > > > > is that if two groups having > > different > > > > values > > > > > have to > > > > > > > coexist in a society,they have to > > be > > > > tolerant > > > > > towards > > > > > > each > > > > > > > other. > > > > > > > I do not advocate any limit to the > > > freedom > > > > of > > > > > > > expression,but there should not be > > > complete > > > > > > callousness > > > > > > > towards the feelings of > > groups.Painters > > > like > > > > > Hussein > > > > > > and > > > > > > > other heretics would always keep > > > producing > > > > works > > > > > that > > > > > > would > > > > > > > offend,and perhaps thats necessary > > > too;but > > > > if > > > > > some of > > > > > > the > > > > > > > people in the media,and I do not > > mean > > > the > > > > media > > > > > which > > > > > > > actually represents these groups, > > can > > > > understand > > > > > and > > > > > > voice > > > > > > > their feelings,then emotions would > > > probably > > > > not > > > > > flare > > > > > > up to > > > > > > > that extent. > > > > > > > That is the middle way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 8/30/08, Yousuf > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Yousuf > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] > > Ways of > > > Life > > > > and > > > > > > > Transgressions > > > > > > > > To: "Shuddhabrata > > > Sengupta" > > > > > > > , > > > > rahul_capri at yahoo.com > > > > > > > > Cc: "Sarai list" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Saturday, August 30, > > 2008, > > > 9:31 > > > > PM > > > > > > > > Dear Rahul > > > > > > > > I had difficulty following > > your > > > first > > > > > sentence > > > > > > (and a > > > > > > > few > > > > > > > > others), but yes, to put it > > in > > > simple > > > > > language, > > > > > > people > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > been offended by > > Hussain's > > > > paintings, > > > > > and > > > > > > they are > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > always at fault. They have > > not > > > been > > > > educated > > > > > to > > > > > > > appreciate > > > > > > > > the nuances of the medium or > > the > > > > message. > > > > > And the > > > > > > art > > > > > > > > fraternity doesn't have > > the > > > urge to > > > > go > > > > > to the > > > > > > > people and > > > > > > > > explain what they do and why > > they > > > do. > > > > The > > > > > > politician > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > course is too happy to cash > > in on > > > the > > > > > ignorance > > > > > > of the > > > > > > > > public. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Incidentally, countless > > > > > provocative/blasphemous > > > > > > art or > > > > > > > > statements have been made in > > the > > > past > > > > but > > > > > not all > > > > > > of > > > > > > > them > > > > > > > > led to a public outcry. > > Almost all > > > > known > > > > > cases > > > > > > where a > > > > > > > piece > > > > > > > > of art/literature has led to > > > violence, > > > > are > > > > > those > > > > > > where > > > > > > > > somebody (or some political > > party) > > > used > > > > them > > > > > to > > > > > > spread > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > flames. In most cases, the > > > protesters > > > > > haven't > > > > > > seen > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > read what they have been > > > protesting > > > > against. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So, should the artists make > > such > > >> provocative > > > > > > works > > > > > > > only for > > > > > > > > themselves or their closest > > > friends, > > > > and > > > > > never > > > > > > allow > > > > > > > them to > > > > > > > > go public. Or should they > > (and > > > their > > > > > > institutions) > > > > > > > create an > > > > > > > > atmosphere of awareness where > > the > > > > public can > > > > > > > appreciate > > > > > > > > their art and not tear it > > apart? I > > > > don't > > > > > find > > > > > > a > > > > > > > third > > > > > > > > alternative. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yousuf > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 8/30/08, Rahul > > Asthana > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Rahul Asthana > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: > > [Reader-list] > > > Ways of > > > > Life > > > > > and > > > > > > > > Transgressions > > > > > > > > > To: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com, > > > > > "Shuddhabrata > > > > > > > > Sengupta" > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cc: "Sarai > > list" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Saturday, August > > 30, > > > 2008, > > > > 8:42 > > > > > PM > > > > > > > > > Dear Yousuf, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think the classic > > liberal > > > stand > > > > of > > > > > > reductionist > > > > > > > > > extrapolation,in which > > one > > > > develops > > > > > certain > > > > > > set > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > canonical > > > > > > > > > principles and expects > > them > > > to > > > > govern > > > > > all > > > > > > > discourse on > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > certain topic, is not > > > necessarily > > > > > > philosophically > > > > > > > > incorrect > > > > > > > > > from their point of > > view,but > > > > > insufficient > > > > > > and > > > > > > > improper > > > > > > > > if we > > > > > > > > > want to live in a > > tolerant > > > liberal > > > > > society.I > > > > > > will > > > > > > > try > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > elaborate: > > > > > > > > > The point is not that > > Hussein > > > as a > > > > > Muslim > > > > > > can > > > > > > > paint > > > > > > > > Hindu > > > > > > > > > deities,nude or > > otherwise or > > > > whether > > > > > his > > > > > > > intention was > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > insult,or not.The point > > is > > > also > > > > not > > > > > that the > > > > > > his > > > > > > > > paintings > > > > > > > > > can be artistic and > > break new > > > > grounds > > > > > of > > > > > > > expression > > > > > > > > > etc.Neither is it the > > point > > > that > > > > he > > > > > should > > > > > > have > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > freedom > > > > > > > > > of expression to paint > > > whatever he > > > > > wants.The > > > > > > > point is > > > > > > > > also > > > > > > > > > not that the people who > > > attacked > > > > him > > > > > were > > > > > > wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The point that I have > > been > > > trying > > > > to > > > > > make is > > > > > > that > > > > > > > all > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > above things are > > true;but > > > still a > > > > > painting > > > > > > that > > > > > > > he has > > > > > > > > made > > > > > > > > > can be offensive to many > > > > people.Now,the > > > > > > classic > > > > > > > > reductionist > > > > > > > > > line here is > > that,offense is > > > > > > > subjective.Obviously,we > > > > > > > > > can't be bothered > > about > > > every > > > > > person who > > > > > > > takes > > > > > > > > offense > > > > > > > > > at any random stuff, can > > > we?To > > > > that I > > > > > would > > > > > > say, > > > > > > > using > > > > > > > > our > > > > > > > > > own personal > > > judgment,depending > > > > upon > > > > > our > > > > > > > interactions > > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > people, we can make out > > most > > > of > > > > the > > > > > times > > > > > > if > > > > > > > > something is > > > > > > > > > truly offensive to a > > large > > > group > > > > of > > > > > people > > > > > > or > > > > > > > not.If > > > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > > can't,we should talk > > to > > > > > people.IMHO,I > > > > > > > don't > > > > > > > > think I > > > > > > > > > should take the easy way > > out > > > of > > > > hiding > > > > > > behind the > > > > > > > > principles > > > > > > > > > of freedom of expression > > and > > > > visual > > > > > > metaphors > > > > > > > etc.We > > > > > > > > should > > > > > > > > > always support freedom > > of > > > > > expression,but if > > > > > > we > > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > surmise > > > > > > > > > that a particular act of > > art > > > was > > > > > done,when > > > > > > it was > > > > > > > > probably > > > > > > > > > apparent that it would > > hurt > > > the > > > > > > sensibilities of > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > large > > > > > > > > > group of people,we > > should > > > call it > > > > for > > > > > > "bad > > > > > > > > taste". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we have respect for > > and > > > engage > > > > in > > > > > dialog > > > > > > with > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > moderates of groups we > > may > > > not > > > > have to > > > > > deal > > > > > > with > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > extremists. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Shuddha, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think you mentioned > > earlier > > > how > > > > > religious > > > > > > > people > > > > > > > > offend > > > > > > > > > the sensitivities of > > > > atheists.Could you > > > > > > please > > > > > > > > elaborate? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > Rahul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 8/30/08, > > > Shuddhabrata > > > > > Sengupta > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Shuddhabrata > > > Sengupta > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: > > > [Reader-list] > > > > Ways of > > > > > Life > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > Transgressions > > > > > > > > > > To: > > ysaeed7 at yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > Cc: "Sarai > > > list" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Saturday, > > August > > > 30, > > > > 2008, > > > > > 2:44 > > > > > > AM > > > > > > > > > > Dear Yousuf, dear > > all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > thank you very > > much, > > > Yousuf > > > > for > > > > > your > > > > > > mail. I > > > > > > > > really > > > > > > > > > > appreciate your > > > > > > > > > > point of drawing > > > attention to > > > > the > > > > > > available > > > > > > > > > vocabularies of > > > > > > > > > > visual > > > > > > > > > > representation and > > the > > > way in > > > > > which > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > determine or > > > > > > > > > > influence the > > > > > > > > > > universe of visual > > > > > repsesentatiation, > > > > > > if > > > > > > > only to > > > > > > > > > underline > > > > > > > > > > the fact > > > > > > > > > > that no visual > > artist is > > > ever > > > > > divorced > > > > > > from > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > context tat > > > > > > > > > > they are > > > > > > > > > > born into. I have > > > nowhere > > > > written > > > > > > about why > > > > > > > > Husain > > > > > > > > > does > > > > > > > > > > not choose > > > > > > > > > > to represent themes > > from > > > the > > > > > Islamic > > > > > > canon, > > > > > > > and I > > > > > > > > > totally > > > > > > > > > > agree with > > > > > > > > > > you that he does > > not do > > > so > > > > because > > > > > they > > > > > > are > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > available > > > > > > > > > > to him in > > > > > > > > > > his cultural miieu, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for apparently > > > > transgressive > > > > > cases > > > > > > like > > > > > > > > Husain or > > > > > > > > > Dillu > > > > > > > > > > Ram > > > > > > > > > > Kausari, I cannnot > > see > > > why > > > > they > > > > > should > > > > > > not b > > > > > > > > > celebrated. > > > > > > > > > > Hindus > > > > > > > > > > should honour > > Husain and > > > > Muslims > > > > > should > > > > > > > honour > > > > > > > > Dillu > > > > > > > > > Ram. > > > > > > > > > > In this way > > > > > > > > > > they would ensure > > that > > > acts > > > > of > > > > > > 'road > > > > > > > > crossing' > > > > > > > > > need > > > > > > > > > > not necessarily > > > > > > > > > > end in lethal > > accidents, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > warm regards, and > > hoping > > > for > > > > many > > > > > more > > > > > > road > > > > > > > > crossings, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 29-Aug-08, at > > 8:25 > > > PM, > > > > Yousuf > > > > > Saeed > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Shuddha, > > > others > > > > > > > > > > > I really > > appreciate > > > your > > > > > > highlighting > > > > > > > of the > > > > > > > > fact > > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > Hussain's > > > > > > > > > > > intention may > > not > > > be of > > > > > insulting > > > > > > the > > > > > > > Hindus > > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > > drawing the deities > > > > > > > > > > > > > in the nude or > > > > otherwise. I > > > > > am not > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > defender of > > > > > > > > > > Hussain, but would > > > > > > > > > > > > > like to put > > across > > > a few > > > > > points. > > > > > > Many > > > > > > > people > > > > > > > > (on > > > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > > list and > > > > > > > > > > > elsewhere) > > have > > > pointed > > > > out > > > > > that > > > > > > > Hussain > > > > > > > > never > > > > > > > > > drew > > > > > > > > > > any Muslim > > > > > > > > > > > character > > (such as > > > the > > > > > Prophet) in > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > manner, > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > therefore his > > > > > > > > > > > intention must > > be > > > to > > > > insult > > > > > the > > > > > > Hindus. > > > > > > > They > > > > > > > > also > > > > > > > > > say > > > > > > > > > > that such an > > > > > > > > > > > act by any > > artist > > > in a > > > > Muslim > > > > > > country > > > > > > > (like > > > > > > > > Saudi > > > > > > > > > > Arabia) would > > > > > > > > > > > result in > > death > > > penalty, > > > > and > > > > > so > > > > > > on. But > > > > > > > > maybe > > > > > > > > > Hussain > > > > > > > > > > did not draw > > > > > > > > > > > an Islamic > > > character in > > > > an > > > > > > > > "immodest" > > > > > > > > > > posture simply > > because > > > such > > > > > > > > > > > an image or > > icon > > > > doesn't > > > > > exist > > > > > > in the > > > > > > > > > Islam's > > > > > > > > > > visual cultural > > > > > > > > > > > tradition. If > > he > > > does > > > > it, > > > > > then > > > > > > that > > > > > > > would be > > > > > > > > > > deliberately > > > > > > > > > > > provocative > > > (although I > > > > am > > > > > not > > > > > > saying > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > shouldn't > > > > > > > > > > be done). But he > > > > > > > > > > > could draw a > > Hindu > > > deity > > > > in > > > > > the > > > > > > nude > > > > > > > because > > > > > > > > such > > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > > tradition > > > > > > > > > > > exists in our > > > Indian > > > > visual > > > > > > culture. I > > > > > > > doubt > > > > > > > > if > > > > > > > > > he > > > > > > > > > > avoids > > > > > > > > > > > the depiction > > of > > > Muslim > > > > > themes > > > > > > because > > > > > > > he > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > scared > > > > > > > > > > of the > > > > > > > > > > > Islamists. > > Maybe he > > > > simply > > > > > > can't > > > > > > > relate > > > > > > > > to it > > > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > > an Indian. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If I as an > > artist > > > cannot > > > > > express > > > > > > my > > > > > > > certain > > > > > > > > > feelings > > > > > > > > > > in the > > > > > > > > > > > language that > > has > > > been > > > > taught > > > > > to > > > > > > be me > > > > > > > by my > > > > > > > > > parents, > > > > > > > > > > and I > > > > > > > > > > > suddenly > > discover a > > > new > > > > > language > > > > > > that > > > > > > > allows > > > > > > > > me > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > express that > > > > > > > > > > > peculiar > > feeling in > > > a > > > > much > > > > > better > > > > > > way > > > > > > > than > > > > > > > > what > > > > > > > > > my > > > > > > > > > > mother tongue > > > > > > > > > > > did, I would > > be > > > happy to > > > > use > > > > > the > > > > > > new > > > > > > > > language. > > > > > > > > > There > > > > > > > > > > are thousands > > > > > > > > > > > of poets and > > > artists who > > > > > found a > > > > > > new > > > > > > > way of > > > > > > > > > expression > > > > > > > > > > in a > > > > > > > > > > > language which > > > every one > > > > in > > > > > their > > > > > > midst > > > > > > > had > > > > > > > > found > > > > > > > > > > > > "inferior" – > > > I am > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > talking for > > example > > > of > > > > the > > > > > > tradition of > > > > > > > > Persian > > > > > > > > > poets > > > > > > > > > > of South Asia > > > > > > > > > > > who also wrote > > > verses in > > > > > Hindi or > > > > > > > Hinduvi. > > > > > > > > While > > > > > > > > > poets > > > > > > > > > > such as > > > > > > > > > > > Masud Sa'd > > > Salman, > > > > Amir > > > > > > Khusrau, > > > > > > > > Abdurrahim > > > > > > > > > > Khane-khana, > > Ghalib, or > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Iqbal became > > famous > > > for > > > > their > > > > > > exquisite > > > > > > > > verse in > > > > > > > > > > Persian, their > > > > > > > > > > > heart pours > > out > > > better > > > > in > > > > > their > > > > > > > Hinduvi, > > > > > > > > Urdu or > > > > > > > > > Braj > > > > > > > > > > poetry where > > > > > > > > > > > they can come > > down > > > to > > > > the > > > > > earth > > > > > > from > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > lofty > > > > > > > > > royal > > > > > > > > > > palaces. We > > > > > > > > > > > often say, > > > "Unki > > > > Hindi > > > > > > shayeri > > > > > > > mein > > > > > > > > mitti ki > > > > > > > > > > khushbu aati > > hai" > > > (one > > > > > > > > > > > can smell the > > earth > > > in > > > > their > > > > > > vernacular > > > > > > > > poetry). > > > > > > > > > And I > > > > > > > > > > > think Hussain > > is > > > no > > > > > different > > > > > > from > > > > > > > them. He > > > > > > > > > cannot > > > > > > > > > > draw an Islamic > > > > > > > > > > > character in > > the > > > nude > > > > because > > > > > > it's > > > > > > > > probably > > > > > > > > > not in > > > > > > > > > > his palette, or > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't > > touch > > > his > > > > heart. > > > > > (And > > > > > > we > > > > > > > cannot > > > > > > > > force > > > > > > > > > him > > > > > > > > > > to do it to > > > > > > > > > > > become more > > > politically > > > > > correct). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You may say > > that a > > > lot > > > > of > > > > > > > semi-pornographic > > > > > > > > > scenes > > > > > > > > > > have been drawn > > > > > > > > > > > in Mughal or > > > Persian > > > > > miniatures, > > > > > > and he > > > > > > > > could > > > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > followed that. > > > > > > > > > > > But that's > > not > > > the > > > > point. > > > > > > Hindu > > > > > > > deities > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > flexible enough for > > us > > > > > > > > > > > to turn them > > around > > > the > > > > way > > > > > we > > > > > > wish, to > > > > > > > > express a > > > > > > > > > > certain feeling > > > > > > > > > > > that cannot be > > > expressed > > > > any > > > > > other > > > > > > way. > > > > > > > So > > > > > > > > why > > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > appreciate and > > > > > > > > > > > celebrate that > > > fact. (I > > > > know > > > > > such > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > statement > > > > > > > > > from me > > > > > > > > > > might raise > > > > > > > > > > > some > > eyebrows). I > > > maybe > > > > a > > > > > Muslim > > > > > > but I > > > > > > > > appreciate > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > fact that you > > > > > > > > > > > can literally > > play > > > with > > > > many > > > > > Hindu > > > > > > > deities. > > > > > > > > Just > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > other day I > > > > > > > > > > > heard Pandit > > Jasraj > > > sing > > > > a > > > > > khayal > > > > > > in > > > > > > > which > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > lyrics > > > > > > > > > > repeatedly > > > > > > > > > > > referred to > > Krishna > > > as a > > > > chor > > > > > > (thief). > > > > > > > Does > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > insult a Hindu? Or > > > > > > > > > > > > > would it > > insult a > > > Hindu > > > > if > > > > > this > > > > > > khayal > > > > > > > was > > > > > > > > sung > > > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > > Ustad Amir Khan? > > > > > > > > > > > (Incidentally, > > a > > > large > > > > number > > > > > of > > > > > > > traditional > > > > > > > > > Hindu > > > > > > > > > > devotional > > > > > > > > > > > lyrics sung in > > > classical > > > > > music > > > > > > have > > > > > > > reached > > > > > > > > us > > > > > > > > > via > > > > > > > > > > Muslim gharana > > > > > > > > > > > musicians, and > > much > > > of > > > > > devotional > > > > > > Hindu > > > > > > > > visual > > > > > > > > > > mythology has come > > > > > > > > > > > > > to us via > > patwa > > >artists > > > > of > > > > > Bengal > > > > > > who > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > > all Muslim. > > Can > > > > M.F.Hussain > > > > > be > > > > > > > detached > > > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > continuity?) > > > > > > > > > > > Much of the > > popular > > > > calendar > > > > > and > > > > > > poster > > > > > > > art > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > 20th > > > > > > > > > > century showing > > > > > > > > > > > Hindu deities > > was > > > drawn > > > > by an > > > > > > artist > > > > > > > called > > > > > > > > Hasan > > > > > > > > > Raza > > > > > > > > > > Raja of > > > > > > > > > > > Meerut. And > > the > > > manner > > > > in > > > > > which > > > > > > most > > > > > > > Hindu > > > > > > > > > deities are > > > > > > > > > > visualized > > > > > > > > > > > today comes > > from > > > the > > > > > pioneering > > > > > > work of > > > > > > > Raja > > > > > > > > Ravi > > > > > > > > > > Varma who was > > > > > > > > > > > clearly > > inspired by > > > > western > > > > > style > > > > > > of > > > > > > > art > > > > > > > > where > > > > > > > > > human > > > > > > > > > > models were > > > > > > > > > > > used to > > visualize > > > the > > > > gods > > > > > and > > > > > > > goddesses. > > > > > > > > So, > > > > > > > > > does all > > > > > > > > > > this insult > > > > > > > > > > > the Hindus? > > And > > > what is > > > > the > > > > > > > > "original" > > > > > > > > > Hindu > > > > > > > > > > way of imagining > > the > > > > > > > > > > > deities any > > way? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I liked your > > > quoting > > > > from > > > > > Kausari > > > > > > who > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > among > > > > > > > > > many > > > > > > > > > > Hindu poets who > > > > > > > > > > > have > > > written/announced > > > > their > > > > > > emotive > > > > > > > > affiliation > > > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > > Prophet > > > > > > > > > > > Mohammad in > > the > > > same way > > > > as > > > > > say > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > Krishna. I > > > > > > > > > doubt > > > > > > > > > > if such > > > > > > > > > > > actions in the > > past > > > may > > > > have > > > > > met > > > > > > with > > > > > > > much > > > > > > > > > resistance > > > > > > > > > > (as you have > > > > > > > > > > > mentioned) – > > such > > > > examples > > > > > were > > > > > > a > > > > > > > norm. > > > > > > > > There > > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > many Hindu poets > > > > > > > > > > > who have > > written > > > > marsiyas > > > > > full of > > > > > > > pathos for > > > > > > > > Imam > > > > > > > > > > Hussain's > > > > > > > > > > > martyrdom, and > > many > > > > Muslim > > > > > poets > > > > > > who > > > > > > > > composed > > > > > > > > > adorable > > > > > > > > > > songs for > > > > > > > > > > > Krishna. I > > > don't > > > > think it > > > > > was > > > > > > too > > > > > > > hard > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > cross > > > > > > > > > > the road in those > > > > > > > > > > > days. So, why > > are > > > we > > > > busy > > > > > throwing > > > > > > > stones > > > > > > > > onto > > > > > > > > > each > > > > > > > > > > other from the > > > > > > > > > > > two sides of a > > > road? I > > > > could > > > > > > imagine > > > > > > > that at > > > > > > > > > least an > > > > > > > > > > online forum > > > > > > > > > > > like Sarai > > could > > > act > > > > like a > > > > > subway > > > > > > or a > > > > > > > > walk-over > > > > > > > > > > bridge to cross > > > > > > > > > > > the busy > > highway. > > > But > > > > > currently it > > > > > > > seems > > > > > > > > more > > > > > > > > > like a > > > > > > > > > > road-block. > > > > > > > > > > > And we are all > > > paying > > > > the > > > > > toll. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yousuf > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, > > > 8/29/08, > > > > > Shuddhabrata > > > > > > > Sengupta > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> From: > > > Shuddhabrata > > > > > Sengupta > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Subject: > > > > [Reader-list] > > > > > Ways of > > > > > > Life > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > Transgressions > > > > > > > > > > >> To: > > "Sarai > > > > > list" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Date: > > Friday, > > > August > > > > 29, > > > > > 2008, > > > > > > 1:31 > > > > > > > PM > > > > > > > > > > >> Dear All, > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> I have > > been > > > > intrigued by > > > > > the > > > > > > > exchange on > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > list > > > > > > > > > > of late > > > > > > > > > > >> that has > > > > > > > > > > >> preferred > > to > > > > jettison the > > > > > term > > > > > > > > > 'religion' > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > >> prefer in > > its > > > stead > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > >> > > euphimistic > > > phrase - > > > > > 'ways > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > life'. > > > > > > > > > I am > > > > > > > > > > referring > > > > > > > > > > >> to the > > exchange > > > > > > > > > > >> between > > > Chanchal > > > > Malviya > > > > > and > > > > > > > Jeebesh > > > > > > > > Bagchi, > > > > > > > > > > arising out of > > > > > > > > > > >> the > > > > > > > > > > >> heated > > > > correspondence on > > > > > the > > > > > > > disruption > > > > > > > > of a > > > > > > > > > small > > > > > > > > > > >> exhibition > > > devoted > > > > > > > > > > >> to > > M.F.Husain. > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> i am quite > > > convinced > > > > that > > > > > the > > > > > > term > > > > > > > > > > 'religion' > > > > > > > > > > >> which > > derives > > > from > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > >> latin root > > of > > > the > > > > word > > > > > religio > > > > > > > (bond) > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > religare > > > > > > > > > > (the > > > > > > > > > > >> verb form > > of > > > > > > > > > > >> 'to > > > bind') > > > > > remains for > > > > > > me a > > > > > > > > useful > > > > > > > > > word to > > > > > > > > > > name the > > > > > > > > > > >> act of > > > committing > > > > > > > > > > >> oneself in > > any > > > form. > > > > In > > > > > this > > > > > > sense, > > > > > > > > atheists > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > agnostics > > > > > > > > > > >> are just > > > > > > > > > > >> as > > religious > > > (in > > > > their > > > > > > commitment > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > doubt) > > > > > > > > > as are > > > > > > > > > > those > > > > > > > > > > >> blessed > > with > > > > > > > > > > >> faith. I > > would > > > > describe > > > > > my > > > > > > > religious > > > > > > > > > commitment as > > > > > > > > > > >> > > agnosticism - a > > > > > > > > > > >> commitment > > to > > > doubt > > > > > > everything, > > > > > > > > (including > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > value of > > > > > > > > > > >> doubt) and > > a > > > > > > > > > > >> certainty > > that > > > we > > > > cannot > > > > > speak > > > > > > > certainly > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > anything at > > > > > > > > > > >> all, > > because > > > > > > > > > > >> there are > > > always > > > > > > counterfactuals, > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > hitherto > > > > > > > > > > unimagined, > > > > > > > > > > >> or unknown > > > > > > > > > > >> > > possibilities, > > > that > > > > goad > > > > > us on > > > > > > to > > > > > > > yet > > > > > > > > newer > > > > > > > > > > possibilities, > > > > > > > > > > >> or to > > > > > > > > > > >> return to > > some > > > very > > > > old > > > > > ones. > > > > > > This > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > just to > > > > > > > > > say > > > > > > > > > > that it > > > > > > > > > > >> would be a > > > > > > > > > > >> mistake to > > > assume, > > > > as is > > > > > often > > > > > > done > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > some > > > > > > > > > > arrogance on > > > > > > > > > > >> the part > > > > > > > > > > >> of the > > more > > > > pronouncedly > > > > > > > > 'faithful', > > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > atheists > > > > > > > > > > >> and > > agnostics > > > have > > > > > > > > > > >> no > > > > 'spiritual' > > > > > quests. > > > > > > They > > > > > > > do, > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > > dont, just > > > > > > > > > > >> as those > > who > > > are > > > > > > > > > > >> > > ostentatiously > > > > > > 'religious' > > > > > > > do, > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > dont, > > > > > > > > > > or do only > > > > > > > > > > >> in as much > > as > > > it > > > > > > > > > > >> allows > > them to > > > burn > > > > a few > > > > > > churches > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > they go > > > > > > > > > > questing. If > > > > > > > > > > >> Hindu > > > > > > > > > > >> > > fundamentalists > > > have > > > > > chosen to > > > > > > > renounce > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > ties > > > > > > > > > > that bind > > > > > > > > > > >> (religio) > > > > > > > > > > >> them to > > life, > > > who > > > > would I > > > > > be > > > > > > to > > > > > > > object, > > > > > > > > > because, I > > > > > > > > > > am not a > > > > > > > > > > >> Hindu. > > > > > > > > > > >> But I have > > no > > > > quarrel > > > > > with the > > > > > > term > > > > > > > > 'ways > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > life'. > > > > > > > > > > >> The more > > words > > > we > > > > > > > > > > >> have, the > > > better. > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> This > > discussion > > > > arose out > > > > > of a > > > > > > rage > > > > > > > felt > > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > some > > > > > > > > > > that a > > > > > > > > > > >> group of > > > > > > > > > > >> zealots > > had > > > broken > > > > and > > > > > > disrupted an > > > > > > > > > exhibition > > > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > >> featured > > some > > > > > > > > > > >> images of > > and > > > by > > > > Husain, > > > > > and > > > > > > the > > > > > > > counter > > > > > > > > rage > > > > > > > > > felt > > > > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > > >> others > > that the > > > > > > > > > > >> zealots > > had no > > > right > > > > to > > > > > be > > > > > > > criticised > > > > > > > > because > > > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > > were > > > > > > > > > > >> acting to > > > > > > > > > > >> protect > > the > > > honour > > > > of the > > > > > > Hindu > > > > > > > deities > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > > felt > > > > > > > > > > >> Husain had > > > > > > > > > > >> insulted. > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> The second > > case > > > is > > > > as > > > > > follows > > > > > > - > > > > > > > what > > > > > > > > right > > > > > > > > > has > > > > > > > > > > Husain, a > > > > > > > > > > >> Muslim to > > > > > > > > > > >> insult > > Hindu > > > deities > > > > by > > > > > > portraying > > > > > > > them > > > > > > > > in a > > > > > > > > > > manner that is > > > > > > > > > > >> offensive > > > > > > > > > > >> to the > > > sentiments of > > > > many > > > > > > Hindus. > > > > > > > > > (Husain's > > > > > > > > > > >> > > motivations, or > > > the > > > > > > > > > > >> aesthetic > > merit > > > of > > > > his > > > > > images > > > > > > are > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > issue > > > > > > > > > > here, what > > > > > > > > > > >> is at > > > > > > > > > > >> issue is > > the > > > insult > > > > seen > > > > > to > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > occurred > > > > > > > > > when a > > > > > > > > > > non-Hindu > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > 'touches' > > > > > > > > > > >> a sacred > > Hindu > > > icon > > > > with > > > > > his > > > > > > > > > 'insulting' > > > > > > > > > > >> > > imagination. > > > Those > > > > so > > > > > > > > > > >> enraged, > > also > > > throw > > > > the > > > > > > following > > > > > > > > challenge, > > > > > > > > > has > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > >> opposite > > ever > > > > > > > > > > >> occurred? > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> I am not > > here > > > to > > > > make a > > > > > case > > > > > > for > > > > > > > Husain. > > > > > > > > (As > > > > > > > > > I > > > > >> > > > > have said > > > > > > > > > > >> before I > > do > > > > > > > > > > >> not have a > > very > > > high > > > > > opinion > > > > > > of his > > > > > > > work > > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > an > > > > > > > > > > artist). I > > > > > > > > > > >> am here to > > > > > > > > > > >> make a > > case for > > > what > > > > is > > > > > > considered > > > > > > > to be > > > > > > > > > > transgression. No > > > > > > > > > > >> one can be > > > > > > > > > > >> sure when > > they > > > have > > > > > > transgressed. > > > > > > > > Because > > > > > > > > > > transgression can > > > > > > > > > > >> be seen > > > > > > > > > > >> to occur > > even > > > when > > > > the > > > > > motives > > > > > > of > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > person > > > > > > > > > > concerned are > > > > > > > > > > >> far from > > > > > > > > > > >> > > transgression. > > > > Husain can > > > > > say > > > > > > in > > > > > > > his > > > > > > > > defence, > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > indeed > > > > > > > > > > >> has on > > > > > > > > > > >> occasion > > said > > > that > > > > his > > > > > > paintings > > > > > > > are an > > > > > > > > index > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > his > > > > > > > > > > >> > > appreciation of > > > > > > > > > > >> Indic > > culture > > > and > > > > its > > > > > > diversity of > > > > > > > > > expressions, of > > > > > > > > > > his > > > > > > > > > > >> closeness > > > > > > > > > > >> (since > > early > > > > childhood) > > > > > to > > > > > > forms of > > > > > > > > iconic > > > > > > > > > imagery > > > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > >> popular > > > Hinduism. > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> Here his > > intent > > > is > > > > > clearly not > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > insult, on > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > contrary, > > > > > > > > > > >> it is to > > > > > > > > > > >> declare > > his > > > > appreciation > > > > > for > > > > > > the > > > > > > > beauty > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > iconography > > > > > > > > > > >> of popular > > > > > > > > > > >> Hinduism, > > a > > > charge > > > > for > > > > > which > > > > > > he > > > > > > > would be > > > > > > > > > equally > > > > > > > > > > hated by > > > > > > > > > > >> both Hindu > > > > > > > > > > >> as well as > > > Muslim > > > > > > fundamentalists. > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> It has not > > been > > > > noticed > > > > > that > > > > > > no > > > > > > > Muslim > > > > > > > > > > fundamentalist or > > > > > > > > > > >> even > > Muslim > > > > > > > > > > >> religious > > > figure has > > > > come > > > > > out > > > > > > in > > > > > > > defence > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > Husain. They > > > > > > > > > > >> are in > > fact > > > > > > > > > > >> in tacit > > > agreement > > > > with > > > > > their > > > > > > Hindu > > > > > > > > peers. A > > > > > > > > > > Muslim making > > > > > > > > > > >> images, > > > > > > > > > > >> and that > > too of > > > > Hindu > > > > > > goddesses, > > > > > > > because > > > > > > > > he > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > drawn to > > > > > > > > > > >> them, can > > > > > > > > > > >> only be > > seen as > > > > blasphemy > > > > > in > > > > > > their > > > > > > > eyes. > > > > > > > > On > > > > > > > > > this, > > > > > > > > > > like on > > > > > > > > > > >> so many > > > > > > > > > > >> other > > issues, > > > Hindu > > > > and > > > > > Muslim > > > > > > > > > fundamentalists are > > > > > > > > > > in total > > > > > > > > > > >> agreement. > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> Let me > > come now > > > to > > > > an > > > > > > interesting > > > > > > > > > counterfactual > > > > > > > > > > argument. > > > > > > > > > > >> I refer to > > > > > > > > > > >> the life > > an > > > work of > > > > a > > > > > little > > > > > > known > > > > > > > late > > > > > > > > > nineteenth > > > > > > > > > > century > > > > > > > > > > >> and early > > > > > > > > > > >> twentieth > > > century > > > > Urdu > > > > > poet of > > > > > > > Delhi > > > > > > > > called > > > > > > > > > Dillu > > > > > > > > > > Ram > > > > > > > > > > >> Kausari. > > Now as > > > > > > > > > > >> his name > > > suggests, > > > > Dillu > > > > > Ram > > > > > > was a > > > > > > > > Hindu. The > > > > > > > > > > trouble is, > > > > > > > > > > >> throughout > > > > > > > > > > >> his life > > he > > > composed > > > > > > deliriously > > > > > > > > passionate > > > > > > > > > > elegies > > > > > > > > > > >> > > (na'at) to > > > the > > > > > > > > > > >> Prophet > > > Muhammad. > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> One of his > > > quatrains > > > > went > > > > > as > > > > > > > follows > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> Kuch > > 'ishq e > > > > Muhammad > > > > > mein > > > > > > nahin > > > > > > > shart > > > > > > > > e > > > > > > > > > > Musulman! > > > > > > > > > > >> Hai > > Kausari > > > Hindu > > > > bhii > > > > > > talabgaar e > > > > > > > > Muhammad! > > > > > > > > > > >> Allah re! > > kyaa > > > > raunaq e > > > > > bazaar > > > > > > e > > > > > > > > Muhammad > > > > > > > > > > >> Ke > > Ma'bood e > > > Jahan > > > > bhi > > > > > hai > > > > > > > kharidaar e > > > > > > > > > Muhammad! > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> Being a > > Muslim > > > is > > > > not a > > > > > > condition > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > loving > > > > > > > > > > Muhammad! > > > > > > > > > > >> Kausari, > > the > > > Hindu, > > > > is > > > > > also a > > > > > > > seeker of > > > > > > > > > Muhammad! > > > > > > > > > > >> By Allah! > > How > > > > delightful > > > > > is > > > > > > the > > > > > > > bazaar > > > >> > > > of > > > > > > > > > Muhammad > > > > > > > > > > >> For the > > Lord of > > > the > > > > > Worlds is > > > > > > also > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > buyer of > > > > > > > > > > Muhammad! > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> This kind > > of > > > > sentiment > > > > > shocked > > > > > > both > > > > > > > > Hindus > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > Muslims. > > > > > > > > > > >> Hindus, > > > > > > > > > > >> because > > how > > > could a > > > > Hindu > > > > > sing > > > > > > what > > > > > > > > amounted > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > love songs > > > > > > > > > > >> to a > > > > > > > > > > >> Muslim > > prophet, > > > and > > > > > Muslims, > > > > > > for > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > same > > > > > > > > > reason. > > > > > > > > > > Both felt > > > > > > > > > > >> slighted > > > > > > > > > > >> and > > insulted by > > > the > > > > > > transgressive > > > > > > > way in > > > > > > > > > which the > > > > > > > > > > >> > > imagination of > > > the > > > > > > > > > > >> poet had > > > > > 'touched' the > > > > > > body > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > what > > > > > > > > > was > > > > > > > > > > sacred for > > > > > > > > > > >> one, and > > not, > > > for > > > > > > > > > > >> the other. > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> Another > > poem, > > > which > > > > > proved to > > > > > > be > > > > > > > even > > > > > > > > more > > > > > > > > > > controversial, > > > > > > > > > > >> went like > > > > > > > > > > >> this - > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Rahmatulilalamin kay > > > > > Hashar > > > > > > mein > > > > > > > > maana' > > > > > > > > > khulay > > > > > > > > > > >> Khalq > > saari > > > Shaafa e > > > > Roz > > > > > e > > > > > > Jaza kay > > > > > > > > saath hai > > > > > > > > > > >> Laykay > > Dillu > > > Raam ko > > > > > jannat > > > > > > mein > > > > > > > jab > > > > > > > > Hazrat > > > > > > > > > gaye > > > > > > > > > > >> Ma'loom > > huwa > > > kay > > > > Hindu > > > > > bhi > > > > > > > Mahboob e > > > > > > > > Khuda > > > > > > > > > kay > > > > > > > > > > saath hai! > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> The > > meaning of > > > > "Mercy > > > > > unto > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > Worlds" > > > > > > > > > became > > > > > > > > > > apparent > > > > > > > > > > >> on > > Judgement > > > Day: > > > > > > > > > > >> The whole > > > creation > > > > is > > > > > with the > > > > > > > > Intercessor of > > >> > > > > > The > > > > > > > > > > Day of > > > > > > > > > > >> Acquittal > > > > > > > > > > >> When the > > > Prophet > > > > took > > > > > Dillu > > > > > > Ram > > > > > > > with him > > > > > > > > into > > > > > > > > > > Paradise > > > > > > > > > > >> It was > > known > > > that > > > > this > > > > > Hindu > > > > > > too is > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > Beloved of > > > > > > > > > > >> God! > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> This poem, > > > > especially > > > > > > scandalized > > > > > > > Muslim > > > > > > > > > > orthodoxy, because > > > > > > > > > > >> it dared > > > > > > > > > > >> to suggest > > that > > > the > > > > > prophet > > > > > > himself > > > > > > > > would > > > > > > > > > > intercede on > > > > > > > > > > >> behalf of > > an > > > > > > > > > > >> unbeliever > > on > > > the > > > > day of > > > > > > judgement. > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> It is > > > interesting to > > > > note > > > > > that > > > > > > > Dillu Ram > > > > > > > > > never > > > > > > > > > > became a > > > > > > > > > > >> Muslim, at > > > > > > > > > > >> least not > > in > > > his > > > > > lifetime. An > > > > > > > article in > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > interesting > > > > > > > > > > >> web portal > > > > > > > > > > >> Chowk > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.chowk.com/articles/12692 by > > > > > > > > > one > > > > > > > > > > Asif > > > > > > > > > > >> Naqshbandi > > says > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> "It > > is > > > also > > > > said > > > > > that > > > > > > Dillu > > > > > > > Ram, > > > > > > > > > delirious > > > > > > > > > > with his > > > > > > > > > > >> love, > > would > > > > > > > > > > >> sometimes > > stand > > > in > > > > the > > > > > middle > > > > > > of > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > bazaar > > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > Delhi, put > > > > > > > > > > >> chains > > > > > > > > > > >> around his > > neck > > > and > > > > feet > > > > > and > > > > > > shout > > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > the top > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > his voice > > > > > > > > > > >> to all > > > > > > > > > > >> > > passers-by, > > > > "Muhammad! > > > > > > Muhammad! > > > > > > > > Muhammad! > > > > > > > > > Yes! > > > > > > > > > > Muhammad > > > > > > > > > > >> is the > > > > > > > > > > >> Beloved of > > God! > > > > Muhammad > > > > > is > > > > > > the > > > > > > > first > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > only > > > > > > > > > > Beloved of > > > > > > > > > > >> God! If > > God > > > > > > > > > > >> loves you, > > He > > > loves > > > > you > > > > > > because of > > > > > > > His > > > > > > > > > Beloved!" > > > > > > > > > > Some > > > > > > > > > > >> people > > even > > > > > > > > > > >> stoned him > > and > > > he > > > > would > > > > > often > > > > > > come > > > > > > > home > > > > > > > > > covered in > > > > > > > > > > blood > > > > > > > > > > >> but he was > > > > > > > > > > >> totally > > lost in > > > his > > > > love > > > > > of > > > > > > the > > > > > > > Prophet > > > > > > > > > (peace and > > > > > > > > > > >> blessings > > be > > > upon > > > > > > > > > > >> > > him!)" > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> There is > > an > > > > apocryphal > > > > > story > > > > > > of how > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > his > > > > > > > > > > deathbed Dillu > > > > > > > > > > >> Ram > > Kausari > > > > > > > > > > >> had a > > vision of > > > the > > > > > Prophet > > > > > > > himself, who > > > > > > > > came > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > him, and > > > > > > > > > > >> that he > > > > > > > > > > >> read the > > Kalima > > > with > > > > him. > > > > > But > > > > > > as > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > vision > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > reported to > > > > > > > > > > >> have > > > > > > > > > > >> appeared > > only > > > to > > > > him, as > > > > > he > > > > > > lay > > > > > > > dying, > > > > > > > > and as > > > > > > > > > he > > > > > > > > > > is no > > > > > > > > > > >> longer > > with us > > > > > > > > > > >> to either > > > confirm or > > > > deny > > > > > this > > > > > > > deathbed > > > > > > > > > > conversion, we can > > > > > > > > > > >> only > > > > > > > > > > >> surmise > > that it > > > was > > > > a > > > > > > generous, but > > > > > > > > somewhat > > > > > > > > > > disingenuous > > > > > > > > > > >> method of > > > > > > > > > > >> having > > Dillu > > > > Ram's > > > > > > somewhat > > > > > > > > unorthodox > > > > > > > > > Muslim > > > > > > > > > > >> apologists > > > claim him > > > > > > > > > > >> for > > themselves. > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> As far as > > we > > > are > > > > > concerned, > > > > > > Dillu > > > > > > > Ram > > > > > > > > > Kausari, > > > > > > > > > > caused grave > > > > > > > > > > >> offence, > > > > > > > > > > >> by his > > love for > > > the > > > > > Prophet, > > > > > > both > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > Hindu as > > > > > > > > > well > > > > > > > > > > as to > > > > > > > > > > >> Muslim > > > > > > > > > > >> zealots, > > as > > > long as > > > > he > > > > > lived. > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> If, the > > things > > > we > > > > call > > > > > > religions > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > 'ways of > > > > > > > > > > life' > > > > > > > > > > >> then we > > can > > > > > > > > > > >> always > > > determine for > > > > > ourselves > > > > > > > whether > > > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > > want to > > > > > > > > > > walk on a > > > > > > > > > > >> one way > > > > > > > > > > >> street > > that > > > runs > > > > into a > > > > > dead > > > > > > end, > > > > > > > or to > > > > > > > > cross > > > > > > > > > many > > > > > > > > > > paths, > > > > > > > > > > >> walking > > > > > > > > > > >> down one > > way, > > > for > > > > one > > > > > purpose, > > > > > > down > > > > > > > > another > > > > > > > > > way > > > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > >> another, > > and > > > > > > > > > > >> sometimes > > just > > > > standing > > > > > in > > > > > > between > > > > > > > > paths, > > > > > > > > > figuring > > > > > > > > > > out our > > > > > > > > > > >> journey, > > > > > > > > > > >> as we go > > about > > > our > > > > lives. > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> I find > > cases > > > like > > > > Husain > > > > > and > > > > > > Dillu > > > > > > > Ram > > > > > > > > > Kausari > > > > > > > > > > interesting > > > > > > > > > > >> not > > > > > > > > > > >> becauseof > > what > > > they > > > > > paint of > > > > > > what > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > say, > > > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > > > because > > > > > > > > > > >> they seem > > to > > > > > > > > > > >> cause such > > > prolonged > > > > > traffic > > > > > > jams > > > > > > > on the > > > > > > > > > 'ways > > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > >> life'. > > And > > > all > > > > they > > > > > > > > > > >> were doing > > was > > > > crossing > > > > > the > > > > > > road. > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> thanks and > > > regards, > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> ----- > > > > > > > > > > >> > > Shuddhabrata > > > > Sengupta > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > >> > > reader-list: an > > > open > > > > > > discussion > > > > > > > list on > > > > > > > > media > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > the city. > > > > > > > > > > >> Critiques > > & > > > > > Collaborations > > > > > > > > > > >> To > > subscribe: > > > send > > > > an > > > > > email to > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > subscribe > > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > the subject > > > > > > > > > > >> header. > > > > > > > > > > >> To > > unsubscribe: > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > > > >> List > > archive: > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > reader-list: > > an > > > open > > > > > discussion > > > > > > list on > > > > > > > > media and > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > city. > > > > > > > > > > > Critiques > > & > > > > > Collaborations > > > > > > > > > > > To subscribe: > > send > > > an > > > > email > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > with > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > subscribe in > > the > > > subject > > > > > header. > > > > > > > > > > > To > > unsubscribe: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shuddhabrata > > Sengupta > > > > > > > > > > The Sarai Programme > > at > > > CSDS > > > > > > > > > > Raqs Media > > Collective > > > > > > > > > > shuddha at sarai.net > > > > > > > > > > www.sarai.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > reader-list: an > > open > > > > discussion > > > > > list on > > > > > > > media and > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > city. > > > > > > > > > > Critiques & > > > > Collaborations > > > > > > > > > > To subscribe: send > > an > > > email > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > with > > > > > > subscribe > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > subject > > > > > > > > > > header. > > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 3 19:22:05 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 06:52:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmir-Tanks on busy market squares - Harsh Mander In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <647365.94755.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Well! Well! Well!   Mander is Ex IAS. Doesn't speak well of IAS.   Tanks have 'Tracks' and APCs (at least in India) are wheeled. The girth and general size are distinctly different.   I thought highly of Mander after his resigning from Govt service as a protest against the 'Gujarat Riots". But now .....   --- On Wed, 9/3/08, S. Jabbar wrote: From: S. Jabbar Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmir-Tanks on busy market squares - Harsh Mander To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, "Sarai" Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 6:58 PM A common mistake that people make when they come across armoured vehicles with LMGs mounted on top. > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Reply-To: > Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 06:14:17 -0700 (PDT) > To: sarai list > Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmir-Tanks on busy market squares - Harsh Mander > > The well known personality Harsh Mander is quoted as saying:   """"""" Even in > small towns, you encounter even today bullet-proof tanks stationed on busy > market squares ...... """""   Would someone please let me know if this is > true. Are there 'tanks' stationed on busy market squares even in the small > towns of Kashmir? This is the first time I have heard of this.   Ex IAS cadre > and current Director Action Aid India, Harsh Mander is not expected to speak > untruths. He is unlikely to mistake some other vehicle for being a > "tank".   If it is true then it is shameful.   If it is not true, then Harsh > Mander was being deliberately and deviously deceitful. "Tanks" being stationed > at busy market squares 'even in small towns' presents quite a damning > picture.   The quote is from a Press Release (02/09/08) by 'Kashmiri American > Council'  about a seminar in Columbus, Ohio, USA . It was at a convention of > ISNA (Islamic Society of North America).   Kshmendra > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an > email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Wed Sep 3 19:45:53 2008 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 19:45:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmir-Tanks on busy market squares - Harsh Mander In-Reply-To: <647365.94755.qm@web57214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: !! Do you really think the ability to distinguish between weaponry should become a criterion in the administrative services? From: Kshmendra Kaul Reply-To: Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 06:52:05 -0700 (PDT) To: Sarai , "S. Jabbar" Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmir-Tanks on busy market squares - Harsh Mander Well! Well! Well! Mander is Ex IAS. Doesn't speak well of IAS. Tanks have 'Tracks' and APCs (at least in India) are wheeled. The girth and general size are distinctly different. I thought highly of Mander after his resigning from Govt service as a protest against the 'Gujarat Riots". But now ..... --- On Wed, 9/3/08, S. Jabbar wrote: > From: S. Jabbar > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmir-Tanks on busy market squares - Harsh Mander > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, "Sarai" > Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 6:58 PM > > A common mistake that people make when they come across armoured vehicles > with LMGs mounted on top. > > >> > From: Kshmendra Kaul >> > Reply-To: >> > Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 06:14:17 -0700 (PDT) >> > To: sarai list >> > Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmir-Tanks on busy market squares - Harsh Mander >> > >> > The well known personality Harsh Mander is quoted as saying: > > """"""" Even in >> > small towns, you encounter even today bullet-proof tanks stationed on busy >> > market squares ...... """"" > > Would someone please let me know if this is >> > true. Are there 'tanks' stationed on busy market squares even in > the small >> > towns of Kashmir? This is the first time I have heard of this. > > Ex IAS cadre >> > and current Director Action Aid India, Harsh Mander is not expected to > speak >> > untruths. He is unlikely to mistake some other vehicle for being a >> > "tank". > > If it is true then it is shameful. > > If it is not true, then Harsh >> > Mander was being deliberately and deviously deceitful. "Tanks" > being stationed >> > at busy market squares 'even in small towns' presents quite a > damning >> > picture. > > The quote is from a Press Release (02/09/08) by 'Kashmiri American >> > Council' about a seminar in Columbus, Ohio, USA . It was at > a convention of >> > ISNA (Islamic Society of North America). > > Kshmendra > > > >> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion >> > list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an >> > email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject >> > header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 3 20:01:08 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 07:31:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmir-Tanks on busy market squares - Harsh Mander In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <939715.9586.qm@web57213.mail.re3.yahoo.com> No.   But, if an idiot like me knows the difference, I would expect an IAS person to be much more aware.   All said.... A Tank, is a Tank, is a Tank, is a Tank ........   I am sure he would have seen pics of the 'Tank' in Tiananmen Square. Maybe he was transposing from that to  imagining Tanks in "busy market squares" ....."even in the small towns" of Kashmir.   --- On Wed, 9/3/08, S. Jabbar wrote: From: S. Jabbar Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmir-Tanks on busy market squares - Harsh Mander To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, "Sarai" Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 7:45 PM !! Do you really think the ability to distinguish between weaponry should become a criterion in the administrative services? From: Kshmendra Kaul Reply-To: Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 06:52:05 -0700 (PDT) To: Sarai , "S. Jabbar" Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmir-Tanks on busy market squares - Harsh Mander Well! Well! Well!   Mander is Ex IAS. Doesn't speak well of IAS.   Tanks have 'Tracks' and APCs (at least in India) are wheeled. The girth and general size are distinctly different.   I thought highly of Mander after his resigning from Govt service as a protest against the 'Gujarat Riots". But now .....   --- On Wed, 9/3/08, S. Jabbar wrote: From: S. Jabbar Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmir-Tanks on busy market squares - Harsh Mander To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, "Sarai" Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 6:58 PM A common mistake that people make when they come across armoured vehicles with LMGs mounted on top. > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Reply-To: > Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 06:14:17 -0700 (PDT) > To: sarai list > Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmir-Tanks on busy market squares - Harsh Mander > > The well known personality Harsh Mander is quoted as saying:   """"""" Even in > small towns, you encounter even today bullet-proof tanks stationed on busy > market squares ...... """""   Would someone please let me know if this is > true. Are there 'tanks' stationed on busy market squares even in the small > towns of Kashmir? This is the first time I have heard of this.   Ex IAS cadre > and current Director Action Aid India, Harsh Mander is not expected to speak > untruths. He is unlikely to mistake some other vehicle for being a > "tank".   If it is true then it is shameful.   If it is not true, then Harsh > Mander was being deliberately and deviously deceitful. "Tanks" being stationed > at busy market squares 'even in small towns' presents quite a damning > picture.   The quote is from a Press Release (02/09/08) by 'Kashmiri American > Council'  about a seminar in Columbus, Ohio, USA . It was at a convention of > ISNA (Islamic Society of North America).   Kshmendra > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an > email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>   From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Wed Sep 3 20:24:25 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 20:24:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord In-Reply-To: References: <821912.19661.qm@web57211.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6353c690809030754n46e01c85va5267b772467649f@mail.gmail.com> And, In a recent lecture in Jamia University, he was no different. Advocating pan-Islamist movement in Kashmir. On 9/3/08, Lalit Ambardar wrote: > > It is not surprising.AG Noorani is a known sympathiser of the Kashmiri pan > Islamists & their cause. He ran a campaign series in support of the > separatists in HT for years .The very fact that Noorani has chosen to call > Jammuites as 'communal forces' & 'parivar' & the accord itself as > 'gunah-e-bey lazzat' & describe those who attempt to seek "azadi -bara -e > -Islam" as 'victims' says it all. > > Noorani once went overboard in " don't be fence-sitters " (HT New Delhi/May > 8, 2007) in his appreciation of Sayad Sallahudin of HM & the al-Qeada > affiliate LeT. In a bizarre coincidence , the day LeT chief allegedly > assured some Gen. Patankar of his willingness to come to India for talks > (...????....) as claimed by Noorani in the article , that very day Hafeez > Sayad confessed to the reporters in Islamabad about the existence of > terrorist infrastructure in Pakistan & declared his resolve to carry on the > 'jihad' to its logical conclusion (Ref. TNN/ Times of India, DEL/May8' 07/ > page no.13). > LA > > > > > > > Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 03:55:11 -0700> From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> To: > shuddha at sarai.net> CC: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] > Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord> > > > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> > > > > > --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote:> > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Subject: Re: > [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord> To: > "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > Cc: "Sarai list" < > reader-list at sarai.net>> Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 4:07 PM> > > Dear all,> > The link to the Noorani article in the Greater Kashmir > Newspaper in > my earlier post got inadvertently truncated. Here is the > correct link.> > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp? > > Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> > Thanks, Tilak Upadhyay for pointing this > out.> > best,> > Shuddha> > On 03-Sep-08, at 3:16 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > wrote: Dear all> > > Dear All,> >> > An unusual intensity of hunger for land > unites corporations, state> > agencies and shrine boards in India. Captains > of Industry,> > politicians and land hungry divines seem to be more > interested in> > acrage than in anything else. The Mahabharata mentions the > burning of> > the Khandava forest to appease a hungry god, inaugurating a > long> > history of burnt and erased forests and commons. It appears as it > we> > are surrounded now by 'hungry gods'. The Khandava-daha continues.> >> > > Be it Chengara (thanks, Anivar Aravind for keeping us updated about> > the > land struggle in Kerala, where the ruling CPI(M) led Left Front> > is intent > on displacing indigenous communities from their land), or> > Singur (where > again, the ruling CPI(M) wants to gift land 'free'> to a> > gigantic > corporation or Amarnath, - the issues - remain the same -> > to do with > state mediated acquisition of land, and the sequestering> > of either > cultivator's land, or a natural commons into some form of> > 'gated' and > 'fenced' land.> >> > There has been some premature media spin around the > 'accord' that> has> > been reached with the Shree Amarnath Yatra Sangharsh > Samiti based in> > Jammu. On the face of it, the accord appears to grant a > limited usage> > right to the Shree Amarnath Shrine Board. On closer reading > of the> > text however, it becomes evident that the terms of this 'accord'> > are> > actually even more invasive than was the case with the substance of> > > the original gubernatorial 'land transfer' order in May.> >> > I am > enclosing below - an article by A. G. Noorani, a well known> > legal > historian and practitioner of constitutional law, titled> > 'An Immoral and > Illegal Accord' which was published in the Greater> > Kashmir newspaper > today. It is available on line at -> > > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?> > > Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> >> > Noorani carefully reads the terms of the > Amarnath Accord in this> > article. As I had pointed out before on this list > (in my second post> > (dated 15th August, 2008) in the thread - 'Gun Salutes > for August> > 15' in response to Sonia Jabbar and Aditya Raj Kaul - the > anger in> > Kashmir has a lot to do with the arbitrary acquisition of land - > I> > had shown, using state government figures, how the equivalent of one> > > in ten fruit orchards can be said to be under the occupation of the> > Armed > Forces. The 'Amarnath Land Transfer' issue needs to be seen> in> > this > context.> >> > As long as that anger (regarding the alienation of land) is > not> > addressed, the people of Kashmir will have no reason, in my> > > estimation, to think of themselves as anything but under a brutal and> > > unrelenting occupation. The current 'Amarnath Accord' in my view,> > worsens > the situation, and can alienate the people of Kashmir (for> > the reasons > that Noorani underlines below) even more. As such, it can> > only be viewed > as yet another provocation, yet another disaster, in> > the long and > undistinguished record of the Government of India's> > tragic blundering on > Kashmir. It cannot but prove to be divisive in a> > situation that urgently > requires the opposite.> >> > regards> >> > Shuddha> >> > > ====================================================================== > > > ==> > =======================> >> > An Immoral and Illegal Accord> > Greater > Kashmir, September 03, 2008> > A G NOORANI> >> > Srinagar, Sep 2: The accord > between the Jammu and Kashmir government> > and the Shri Amarnath Yatra > Sangharsh Samiti on 31 August is far> > worse than the government's order > only three months earlier on 26> > May. It grants the SAYSS concessions > beyond what the May order did.> > It is one-sided and marks an abject > surrender to violence, blockade> > and to communal forces. The differences > between the order and accord> > are glaring. Here is a list:> >> > 1. The > order was made pursuant to a decision on 20 May by the cabinet> > in which > both Jammu and Kashmir were represented. The accord> > completely ignores > Kashmir where the land is to be given. Jammu alone> > was represented. A > week earlier, there was a clampdown in the Valley> > and top leaders were > arrested.> >> > 2. Even the controversial order nowhere used the word > "exclusive".> > The SAYSS felt so emboldened as to demand it and threaten to > wreck> > the deal if it was not conceded. The government yielded in the > early> > hours of 31 August. Para 6A says that the Government "shall set > aside> > for use by Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board exclusively the land in> > > Baltal and Domail". This order unknown anywhere in the world is> > cloaked > under a lie by calling it "traditionally under use for the> > annual yatra > purpose". The traditional route for over a century is> > the Pahalgam route. > The Baltal route is a recent demand. It was> > regarded by the Army and > Nitish Sengupta Report as dangerous. It is> > also unnecessary if the limit > of yatris set by the Report (1 lakh) is> > observed.> >> > 3. This violates > the citizen's fundamental right under Art. 19 (1) D> > to move freely > throughout India. The demand of exclusivity was not> > made even in May 2008 > or in decades earlier. It is pure communal> > aggression using the yatra for > political demonstration not religious> > piety.> >> > 4. The duration of use > is widened to cover pre and post yatra period.> > Para 6 C first says that > the land will be used "for the duration of> > the yatra" including the > period of preparations and winding up. But> > the very next para has these > sinister words: "The aforesaid land> > shall be used according to the > Board's requirements from time to> > time, including for the following". > There follow 9 measures including> > construction, setting up of the sheds > and shops etc. These can be> > done even beyond the yatra period "from time > to time" and "according> > to the Board's requirements"; may be all the year > around.> >> > 5. Para 8 of the order insisted that the land "shall return" > to the> > State. This is dropped in the accord. This accomplishes S.K. > Sinha's> > objective— permanent use the year round.> >> > 6. Also dropped > totally is Para 4 on payment for user.> >> > 7. Dropped too is Para 6. An > undertaking of "foolproof measures> > against water pollution and Para 7 on > payment of fine for damage to> > the forest. There is a pious provision in > accord Para 6 C (ix) among> > the objectives of land user; namely > "undertaking measures relating to> > … preservation of ecology" etc. Breach > entails no fine.> >> > 8. The order of 26 May was rescinded on 1 July. The > accord will> > require a fresh order to implement it. By itself the accord > has no> > legal force. Section 2(a) of the J&K Forest (Conservation) Act > 1997> > says "the Government shall not, except on a resolution of the > Council> > of Ministers based on the advice of the Advisory Committee"> > > constituted under the Act "make any order directing that any forest> > land > or any portion thereof may be used for any non-forest purpose".> > The > earlier phrase "Council of ministers" merely was revised by an> > amendment > in 2001 and the Forest Advisory Committee's advice was> > added and made > mandatory. "Council of Ministers" is specific. It is> > different from "J&K > Government" whose powers vest now in the> governor> > alone. The law > intentionally provides the resolution as a safeguard.> > This Council can > come into existence only after the next elections.> > In any case the Forest > Advisory Committees advice on 12 July 2007> > cannot apply to this new > accord which must be vetted afresh by that> > Committee. It was given before > the Supreme Court's final judgment in> > the T M Godavarman case on 23 > November 2007 which lays down the law> > and makes important observations on > balancing development with> > protection of environment. Failure to consider > it vitiates the> > decision. Precisely based on misrepresentation of opinion > of the> > deputy CM Muzaffar Hussain Beg and advocate general Altaf Naik > both> > of which were given in entirely difference cases.> >> > The accord > lacks legal efficacy as well as moral and political> > legitimacy. Any order > in its implementation will be void in law. It> > is a pity that the state > should bend all rules to buy peace with> > communal forces including promise > to consider compensation for law-> > breakers. What of compensation to the > Valley for the blockade? The> > parivar in Jammu has already begun asking > for more. The Government> > has not bought peace but trouble. It is > gunah-e-bey lazzat (sin> > without any taste.)> >> > If the state can thus > bend its knees before the Sangh parivar on an> > issue like this, what hopes > of justice can Kashmiris entertain when> > it comes to restoring the raped > Article 370 to a status of worth and> > respect?> >> > END> >> > > ====================================================================== > > > ==> > =======================> >> >> >> > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe: > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the > subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > Shuddhabrata Sengupta> > The Sarai Programme at CSDS> Raqs Media Collective> shuddha at sarai.net> > www.sarai.net> www.raqsmediacollective.net> > > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in> the subject > header.> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > > > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header.> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________________________________ > Want to explore the world? Visit MSN Travel for the best deals. > http://in.msn.com/coxandkings > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Wed Sep 3 20:30:51 2008 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 20:30:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmir-Tanks on busy market squares - Harsh Mander In-Reply-To: <939715.9586.qm@web57213.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yes I agree he ought to have been careful but I think what he¹s referring to here is what we call commensurate force or lack thereof. At the height of militancy in the Œ90s this could have been understandable but I think these things ought to be reviewed periodically and calibrated like troop strength and the locations of bunkers. Do you really require armoured vehicles (bulletproof, mineproof, IED proof) with LMGs mounted on top at street corners in the Valley when the levels of incidents have dropped? I¹d feel pretty offended if one moved into my neighbourhood. I¹ve objected to armed bodyguards that trail behind important politicians in Lodi Park. I don¹t like the way guns have littered our landscape and become part of it. We¹ve gotten so used to them now that we¹ve almost forgotten what life looked like without them, when the policeman wielded nothing deadlier than a stout staff and the army man a bolt action three-naught-three. From: Kshmendra Kaul Reply-To: Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 07:31:08 -0700 (PDT) To: Sarai , "S. Jabbar" Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmir-Tanks on busy market squares - Harsh Mander No. But, if an idiot like me knows the difference, I would expect an IAS person to be much more aware. All said.... A Tank, is a Tank, is a Tank, is a Tank ........ I am sure he would have seen pics of the 'Tank' in Tiananmen Square. Maybe he was transposing from that to imagining Tanks in "busy market squares" ....."even in the small towns" of Kashmir. --- On Wed, 9/3/08, S. Jabbar wrote: > From: S. Jabbar > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmir-Tanks on busy market squares - Harsh Mander > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, "Sarai" > Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 7:45 PM > > !! Do you really think the ability to distinguish between weaponry should > become a criterion in the administrative services? > > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Reply-To: > Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 06:52:05 -0700 (PDT) > To: Sarai , "S. Jabbar" > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmir-Tanks on busy market squares - Harsh Mander > > Well! Well! Well! > > Mander is Ex IAS. Doesn't speak well of IAS. > > Tanks have 'Tracks' and APCs (at least in India) are wheeled. The girth and > general size are distinctly different. > > I thought highly of Mander after his resigning from Govt service as a protest > against the 'Gujarat Riots". But now ..... > > > --- On Wed, 9/3/08, S. Jabbar wrote: >> From: S. Jabbar >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmir-Tanks on busy market squares - Harsh >> Mander >> To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, "Sarai" >> Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 6:58 PM >> >> A common mistake that people make when they come across armoured vehicles >> with LMGs mounted on top. >> >> >>> > From: Kshmendra Kaul >>> > Reply-To: >>> > Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 06:14:17 -0700 (PDT) >>> > To: sarai list >>> > Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmir-Tanks on busy market squares - Harsh Mander >>> > >>> > The well known personality Harsh Mander is quoted as saying: >> >> """"""" Even in >>> > small towns, you encounter even today bullet-proof tanks stationed on busy >>> > market squares ...... """"" >> >> Would someone please let me know if this is >>> > true. Are there 'tanks' stationed on busy market squares even in >> the small >>> > towns of Kashmir? This is the first time I have heard of this. >> >> Ex IAS cadre >>> > and current Director Action Aid India, Harsh Mander is not expected to >> speak >>> > untruths. He is unlikely to mistake some other vehicle for being a >>> > "tank". >> >> If it is true then it is shameful. >> >> If it is not true, then Harsh >>> > Mander was being deliberately and deviously deceitful. "Tanks" >> being stationed >>> > at busy market squares 'even in small towns' presents quite a >> damning >>> > picture. >> >> The quote is from a Press Release (02/09/08) by 'Kashmiri American >>> > Council' about a seminar in Columbus, Ohio, USA . It was at >> a convention of >>> > ISNA (Islamic Society of North America). >> >> Kshmendra >> >> >> >>> > >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion >>> > list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an >>> > email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject >>> > header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> > > > From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 3 20:34:04 2008 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 08:04:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions In-Reply-To: <47e122a70809030644g483a5b2en985bbcd466c44c9b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <319517.61062.qm@web51407.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Salim You are right, an artist should never have to explain. But Picasso probably never had people killing each others angered by his paintings. But (as we have discussed earlier on this theme) if you are doing an art for public, would you not be concerned if the public appreciates it? No one is born appreciating high art - we acquire a tastes for everything. The point is, whose responsibity is it to inculcate the appreciation of art in society? If its a Madhubani painting done on the facade of my village house by my mother, its very much there in my genes. But if it is a horse by Hussain kept in a gallery to which I have no access, somebody has to do a bit of explaining on why such art is distanced from social reality (which actually is not, but the market has made it look so). Yousuf --- On Wed, 9/3/08, inder salim wrote: > From: inder salim > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 7:14 PM > Picasso said, if it is possible to explian, it is futile to > paint. > > even if i we gnore picasso, who is an old hat in modern art > now, let > alone hussain sahib who is immensely supported by > investors, and 'post > colonialism' as theoritical justificaioin to do > whatever he or we > sometimes are doing which can pass as derivate at the > best. > > what is education or what is not , what is offensive or > what is not, > is difficult to explain, if one chases the text, and its > meaning > profoundly... > > what we forget also is the fact that what we see are > phtographs of the > the original > > .and is photogaphy representing real, if so then we have > truly > disappeared from the face of this earth. and it does not > matter if > there is hussain or not, > > there is book by Jean Baudilard ' conspiracy of > art' > which speaks the contemporary art practices , and that > makes us feel > that the whole world is in fact a piece of modern art work > , and we > are not there, simple not part of it. > > the question of relevance of hussain in our social > structures is open > to this sort of criticism, > > but not once it lands as amunition in the hands of > fanatics. > > love > is > > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 7:39 AM, Rahul Asthana > wrote: > > > > OK, I think we are almost on the same page now.If by > educating you mean explaining;then I agree.Hussein might > explain why his painting was not meant to > offend,alternatively he may realize how and to what degree > its offensive, and he may decide its not worth it.It should > work both ways. > > I have no stake in whatever is decided,but as > Kshmendra has mentioned,the emphasis should be on > understanding and respecting the other,not educating them. > > > > --- On Tue, 9/2/08, Yousuf > wrote: > > > > > From: Yousuf > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and > Transgressions > > > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > , rahul_capri at yahoo.com > > > Cc: "Sarai list" > > > > Date: Tuesday, September 2, 2008, 11:03 AM > > > Dear Rahul > > > Why are you so scared of the word > "education", > > > and why are you seeing it in such limited terms. > If you look > > > at my last mail, I agreed that your solution #3 > is good and > > > I'd be happy if it works. But I emphasized > about > > > dialogue as part of the education. Don't you > think > > > dialogue and communication between the two > conflicting > > > parties would be an integral part of even your > solution? > > > > > > What would you have to say about a > counselor/psychiatrist > > > who tries to resolve conflicts say between two > spouses. > > > His/her main role is to (a) know each side's > story, and > > > then (b) inform each spouse about the other's > problem > > > which was actually missing between them due to > long gaps of > > > non-communication. Most conflicts in the family > or society > > > occur because of the distance we create between > two parties > > > - we fear each other, imagine all sorts of > strange notions > > > about each other and strengthen the hatred about > each other. > > > If only we talked, we could have realized that > much of our > > > fears were baseless. > > > > > > Hence I am simply talking about creating bridges > between > > > two parties through communication. Why can't > we for > > > instance have a meeting/workshop between Hussain > and the > > > religious fanatics where they tell each > other's story > > > and try to explain why each party needs to be > sensitive to > > > others' feelings. I know this will not > entirely remove > > > either party's deep prejudices, and may lead > to further > > > flaring up, but some moderation may also happen. > But I would > > > again emphasize that those thoughts and ideas of > both sides > > > which are required for the dialogue should at > least be > > > available for everyone to see and understand. For > instance, > > > we only get to see a lot of hate-propaganda from > the > > > religious fanatics against the artist, but never > see any > > > effort from Hussain or the art fraternity to > explain what > > > this art is all about, and why he makes what he > makes. The > > > artist thinks that he/she doesn't need to > explain > > > anything. > > > > > > I am sorry, but I don't follow terms like > reductionism, > > > teleology, deontology, so maybe I am sounding a > bit rigid to > > > you. > > > > > > Yousuf > > > > > > --- On Tue, 9/2/08, Rahul Asthana > > > wrote: > > > > > > > From: Rahul Asthana > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and > > > Transgressions > > > > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > > > , ysaeed7 at yahoo.com > > > > Cc: "Sarai list" > > > > > > > Date: Tuesday, September 2, 2008, 2:01 AM > > > > Dear Yousuf, > > > > Your argument is what I call reductionist > (from > > > > dictionary.com=2.the practice of simplifying > a complex > > > idea, > > > > issue, condition, or the like, esp. to the > point of > > > > minimizing, obscuring, or distorting it.). > > > > When you talk about "millions of issues > in our > > > society > > > > which people used to take with orthodox > > > attitude",you > > > > are basically creating a straw man.Many > orthodox > > > practices > > > > have to be given up;we have no difference on > that. > > > > When two deontologies collide,we have to > present a > > > > teleological argument in favor of one or the > other.In > > > other > > > > words,when two value frameworks reach > conflicting > > > position > > > > on an issue,we have two ways we can approach > the > > > > conflict.The one who favors one value > framework should > > > > present a comparison of the two frameworks > in terms of > > > > social cost-benefit,or,The one who favors > one value > > > > framework tries to educate the other one to > their > > > system > > > > just because its "better".Do you > see the > > > > difference between the two? > > > > Now, in an engagement of two groups on > perceived > > > social > > > > cost-benefit,there will be conflicts.Its > hard to > > > imagine how > > > > two groups will have same perception of > social > > > > cost-benefit.But at least we would be trying > to > > > resolve > > > > issues within a teleological framework which > is a lot > > > better > > > > than "my way is better than your way > and you have > > > to be > > > > educated to my way". > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > Rahul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > gate social cost-benefit,and not on the > basis of what > > > one > > > > group thinks is right. > > > > > > > > --- On Mon, 9/1/08, Yousuf > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: Yousuf > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life > and > > > > Transgressions > > > > > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > > > > , > rahul_capri at yahoo.com > > > > > Cc: "Sarai list" > > > > > > > > > Date: Monday, September 1, 2008, 9:12 > AM > > > > > Dear Rahul > > > > > I understand your logic, but I think > your > > > alternative > > > > no.3 > > > > > is too idealized and utopian to > achieve, although > > > I > > > > would > > > > > love if it works. Also, it may apply > only to some > > > > > situations, not all. For instance, if a > group of > > > > people > > > > > thinks that women are inferior and > should remain > > > > inside > > > > > homes, or that we should ruin the > environment by > > > > cutting > > > > > trees, wasting water and fuel, would > you allow > > > them to > > > > > believe and act on this? You may call > it my > > > > condescending > > > > > attitude, but why is it that we have > managed to > > > bring > > > > an > > > > > awareness and "reform" today > about so > > > many > > > > > millions of issues in our society which > people > > > used to > > > > take > > > > > with orthodox attitude. I am talking > about gender > > > > equality, > > > > > environment, education, health issues > (although > > > it is > > > > still > > > > > not enough). Nobody is born with > politically > > > correct > > > > genes - > > > > > we all acquire things as we grow. So > what's > > > the > > > > big deal > > > > > for instance about having arts > appreciation as > > > part of > > > > the > > > > > school curriculum or TV programmes. > Should we > > > allow > > > > our > > > > > mainstream media to remain > condescending then? > > > Why is > > > > > television changing the attitude of > people - why > > > is > > > > our > > > > > society becoming more consumerist and > aggressive > > > and > > > > > prejudiced? > > > > > Look my condescending solution > doesn't > > > involve > > > > simply > > > > > education - I am talking about dialogue > and > > > awareness, > > > > and > > > > > not talking down somebody's throat > which the > > > TV > > > > does > > > > > today. > > > > > > > > > > Yousuf > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 8/31/08, Rahul Asthana > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > From: Rahul Asthana > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of > Life and > > > > > Transgressions > > > > > > To: "Shuddhabrata > Sengupta" > > > > > , > ysaeed7 at yahoo.com > > > > > > Cc: "Sarai list" > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Sunday, August 31, 2008, > 11:54 PM > > > > > > Yousuf, > > > > > > > > > > > > I think i failed in getting my > point > > > across.No > > > > amount > > > > > of > > > > > > "education" would make > > > Hussein's > > > > art > > > > > > appreciated by some,and those who > are > > > offended by > > > > > > Hussein's art are no less > > > > "educated" > > > > > than you > > > > > > or me. > > > > > > Unless you get rid of your > condescension > > > about > > > > > educating > > > > > > people about what they should or > > > shouldn't > > > > get > > > > > offended > > > > > > by,any discussion about solution > to > > > conflicts > > > > like > > > > > this is a > > > > > > non-starter. > > > > > > > > > > > > I am going to make one last try > though. > > > > > > > > > > > > Say there are two groups A and > B,with > > > different > > > > value > > > > > > systems.A is offended by an act X > and B is > > > > > not,apparently > > > > > > due to their different value > systems. B > > > > encourages X > > > > > and > > > > > > this increases tensions in a > society where A > > > and > > > > B > > > > > live > > > > > > together.Lets see what are the > possible > > > > solutions. > > > > > > > > > > > > 1.Both A and B tell each other to > go take a > > > hike > > > > and > > > > > they > > > > > > would do according to how they > feel fit. > > > > > > 2.Both A and B are sure that their > value > > > systems > > > > are > > > > > > superior and they try to convert > each other > > > to > > > > their > > > > > own > > > > > > view points through dialog etc. > > > > > > 3.Both A and B recognize that > there are > > > > irreconcilable > > > > > > differences in their world > views.They also > > > > recognize > > > > > that > > > > > > they would respect the differences > and try > > > to > > > > honor > > > > > them to > > > > > > the extent possible while also > trying to > > > achieve > > > > their > > > > > own > > > > > > goals through whatever means > possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > If liberal fanatics like you will > keep on > > > > engaging in > > > > > > #2,(which in my opinion is even > worse than > > > #1 > > > > because > > > > > #1 > > > > > > does not involve condescension) > that you are > > > > doing > > > > > right > > > > > > now,you will always enable > religious > > > fanatics > > > > from the > > > > > other > > > > > > side who will try to convert you > to their > > > view > > > > > point.Why is > > > > > > their stand less valid than yours? > > > > > > If you engage in #3 ,you will > enable > > > moderates > > > > from > > > > > the > > > > > > other side who will listen to you > if you > > > listen > > > > to > > > > > them. > > > > > > The big leap of understanding that > you need > > > to > > > > make is > > > > > that > > > > > > there can be two internally > consistent value > > > > systems > > > > > which > > > > > > will lead to opposing positions on > many > > > > issues,and > > > > > both > > > > > > these value systems are equally > valid. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Rahul > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 8/31/08, Yousuf > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Yousuf > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] > Ways of Life > > > and > > > > > > Transgressions > > > > > > > To: "Shuddhabrata > Sengupta" > > > > > > , > > > rahul_capri at yahoo.com > > > > > > > Cc: "Sarai list" > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Sunday, August 31, > 2008, 9:40 AM > > > > > > > When I mention education, I > primarily > > > > include > > > > > media in > > > > > > it. > > > > > > > But the media is careless and > works > > > only on > > > > the > > > > > > diktats of > > > > > > > industry and politicians. So > the prime > > > > > responsibility > > > > > > (of > > > > > > > making sure that their art is > > > appreciated) > > > > falls > > > > > on > > > > > > the arts > > > > > > > fraternity itself. At least > until we > > > find a > > > > > better > > > > > > solution. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 8/30/08, Rahul > Asthana > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Rahul Asthana > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: > [Reader-list] Ways of > > > Life > > > > and > > > > > > > Transgressions > > > > > > > > To: "Shuddhabrata > > > Sengupta" > > > > > > > , > > > ysaeed7 at yahoo.com > > > > > > > > Cc: "Sarai > list" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Saturday, August > 30, 2008, > > > 9:58 > > > > PM > > > > > > > > "They have not been > educated > > > to > > > > > appreciate > > > > > > the > > > > > > > nuances > > > > > > > > of the medium or the > > > message." > > > > > > > > Yousuf, I am sorry but > that's > > > > > > condescending.By the > > > > > > > same > > > > > > > > token a religious person > can say > > > that > > > > the > > > > > artist > > > > > > has > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > been taught the nuances > of > > > religious > > > > > > sensibilities.My > > > > > > > point > > > > > > > > is that if two groups > having > > > different > > > > > values > > > > > > have to > > > > > > > > coexist in a > society,they have to > > > be > > > > > tolerant > > > > > > towards > > > > > > > each > > > > > > > > other. > > > > > > > > I do not advocate any > limit to the > > > > freedom > > > > > of > > > > > > > > expression,but there > should not be > > > > complete > > > > > > > callousness > > > > > > > > towards the feelings of > > > groups.Painters > > > > like > > > > > > Hussein > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > other heretics would > always keep > > > > producing > > > > > works > > > > > > that > > > > > > > would > > > > > > > > offend,and perhaps thats > necessary > > > > too;but > > > > > if > > > > > > some of > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > people in the media,and > I do not > > > mean > > > > the > > > > > media > > > > > > which > > > > > > > > actually represents > these groups, > > > can > > > > > understand > > > > > > and > > > > > > > voice > > > > > > > > their feelings,then > emotions would > > > > probably > > > > > not > > > > > > flare > > > > > > > up to > > > > > > > > that extent. > > > > > > > > That is the middle way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 8/30/08, > Yousuf > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Yousuf > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: > [Reader-list] > > > Ways of > > > > Life > > > > > and > > > > > > > > Transgressions > > > > > > > > > To: > "Shuddhabrata > > > > Sengupta" > > > > > > > > > , > > > > > rahul_capri at yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > Cc: "Sarai > list" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Saturday, > August 30, > > > 2008, > > > > 9:31 > > > > > PM > > > > > > > > > Dear Rahul > > > > > > > > > I had difficulty > following > > > your > > > > first > > > > > > sentence > > > > > > > (and a > > > > > > > > few > > > > > > > > > others), but yes, > to put it > > > in > > > > simple > > > > > > language, > > > > > > > people > > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > been offended by > > > Hussain's > > > > > paintings, > > > > > > and > > > > > > > they are > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > always at fault. > They have > > > not > > > > been > > > > > educated > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > appreciate > > > > > > > > > the nuances of the > medium or > > > the > > > > > message. > > > > > > And the > > > > > > > art > > > > > > > > > fraternity > doesn't have > > > the > > > > urge to > > > > > go > > > > > > to the > > > > > > > > people and > > > > > > > > > explain what they > do and why > > > they > > > > do. > > > > > The > > > > > > > politician > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > course is too happy > to cash > > > in on > > > > the > > > > > > ignorance > > > > > > > of the > > > > > > > > > public. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Incidentally, > countless > > > > > > provocative/blasphemous > > > > > > > art or > > > > > > > > > statements have > been made in > > > the > > > > past > > > > > but > > > > > > not all > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > them > > > > > > > > > led to a public > outcry. > > > Almost all > > > > > known > > > > > > cases > > > > > > > where a > > > > > > > > piece > > > > > > > > > of art/literature > has led to > > > > violence, > > > > > are > > > > > > those > > > > > > > where > > > > > > > > > somebody (or some > political > > > party) > > > > used > > > > > them > > > > > > to > > > > > > > spread > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > flames. In most > cases, the > > > > protesters > > > > > > haven't > > > > > > > seen > > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > read what they have > been > > > > protesting > > > > > against. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So, should the > artists make > > > such > > > >> provocative > > > > > > > works > > > > > > > > only for > > > > > > > > > themselves or their > closest > > > > friends, > > > > > and > > > > > > never > > > > > > > allow > > > > > > > > them to > > > > > > > > > go public. Or > should they > > > (and > > > > their > > > > > > > institutions) > > > > > > > > create an > > > > > > > > > atmosphere of > awareness where > > > the > > > > > public can > > > > > > > > appreciate > > > > > > > > > their art and not > tear it > > > apart? I > > > > > don't > > > > > > find > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > third > > > > > > > > > alternative. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yousuf > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, > 8/30/08, Rahul > > > Asthana > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Rahul > Asthana > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: > > > [Reader-list] > > > > Ways of > > > > > Life > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > Transgressions > > > > > > > > > > To: > ysaeed7 at yahoo.com, > > > > > > "Shuddhabrata > > > > > > > > > Sengupta" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cc: > "Sarai > > > list" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: > Saturday, August > > > 30, > > > > 2008, > > > > > 8:42 > > > > > > PM > > > > > > > > > > Dear Yousuf, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think the > classic > > > liberal > > > > stand > > > > > of > > > > > > > reductionist > > > > > > > > > > > extrapolation,in which > > > one > > > > > develops > > > > > > certain > > > > > > > set > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > canonical > > > > > > > > > > principles and > expects > > > them > > > > to > > > > > govern > > > > > > all > > > > > > > > discourse on > > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > > certain topic, > is not > > > > necessarily > > > > > > > philosophically > > > > > > > > > incorrect > > > > > > > > > > from their > point of > > > view,but > > > > > > insufficient > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > improper > > > > > > > > > if we > > > > > > > > > > want to live > in a > > > tolerant > > > > liberal > > > > > > society.I > > > > > > > will > > > > > > > > try > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > elaborate: > > > > > > > > > > The point is > not that > > > Hussein > > > > as a > > > > > > Muslim > > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > paint > > > > > > > > > Hindu > > > > > > > > > > deities,nude > or > > > otherwise or > > > > > whether > > > > > > his > > > > > > > > intention was > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > insult,or > not.The point > > > is > > > > also > > > > > not > > > > > > that the > > > > > > > his > > > > > > > > > paintings > > > > > > > > > > can be > artistic and > > > break new > > > > > grounds > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > expression > > > > > > > > > > etc.Neither is > it the > > > point > > > > that > > > > > he > > > > > > should > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > freedom > > > > > > > > > > of expression > to paint > > > > whatever he > > > > > > wants.The > > > > > > > > point is > > > > > > > > > also > > > > > > > > > > not that the > people who > > > > attacked > > > > > him > > > > > > were > > > > > > > wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The point that > I have > > > been > > > > trying > > > > > to > > > > > > make is > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > all > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > above things > are > > > true;but > > > > still a > > > > > > painting > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > he has > > > > > > > > > made > >> > > > > > > > can be > offensive to many > > > > > people.Now,the > > > > > > > classic > > > > > > > > > reductionist > > > > > > > > > > line here is > > > that,offense is > > > > > > > > subjective.Obviously,we > > > > > > > > > > can't be > bothered > > > about > > > > every > > > > > > person who > > > > > > > > takes > > > > > > > > > offense > > > > > > > > > > at any random > stuff, can > > > > we?To > > > > > that I > > > > > > would > > > > > > > say, > > > > > > > > using > > > > > > > > > our > > > > > > > > > > own personal > > > > judgment,depending > > > > > upon > > > > > > our > > > > > > > > interactions > > > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > > people, we can > make out > > > most > > > > of > > > > > the > > > > > > times > > > > > > > if > > > > > > > > > something is > > > > > > > > > > truly > offensive to a > > > large > > > > group > > > > > of > > > > > > people > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > not.If > > > > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > > > can't,we > should talk > > > to > > > > > > people.IMHO,I > > > > > > > > don't > > > > > > > > > think I > > > > > > > > > > should take > the easy way > > > out > > > > of > > > > > hiding > > > > > > > behind the > > > > > > > > > principles > > > > > > > > > > of freedom of > expression > > > and > > > > > visual > > > > > > > metaphors > > > > > > > > etc.We > > > > > > > > > should > > > > > > > > > > always support > freedom > > > of > > > > > > expression,but if > > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > > surmise > > > > > > > > > > that a > particular act of > > > art > > > > was > > > > > > done,when > > > > > > > it was > > > > > > > > > probably > > > > > > > > > > apparent that > it would > > > hurt > > > > the > > > > > > > sensibilities of > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > large > > > > > > > > > > group of > people,we > > > should > > > > call it > > > > > for > > > > > > > "bad > > > > > > > > > taste". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we have > respect for > > > and > > > > engage > > > > > in > > > > > > dialog > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > moderates of > groups we > > > may > > > > not > > > > > have to > > > > > > deal > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > extremists. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Shuddha, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think you > mentioned > > > earlier > > > > how > > > > > > religious > > > > > > > > people > > > > > > > > > offend > > > > > > > > > > the > sensitivities of > > > > > atheists.Could you > > > > > > > please > > > > > > > > > elaborate? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > Rahul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, > 8/30/08, > > > > Shuddhabrata > > > > > > Sengupta > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: > Shuddhabrata > > > > Sengupta > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: > Re: > > > > [Reader-list] > > > > > Ways of > > > > > > Life > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > Transgressions > > > > > > > > > > > To: > > > ysaeed7 at yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > Cc: > "Sarai > > > > list" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: > Saturday, > > > August > > > > 30, > > > > > 2008, > > > > > > 2:44 > > > > > > > AM > > > > > > > > > > > Dear > Yousuf, dear > > > all, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > thank you > very > > > much, > > > > Yousuf > > > > > for > > > > > > your > > > > > > > mail. I > > > > > > > > > really > > > > > > > > > > > > appreciate your > > > > > > > > > > > point of > drawing > > > > attention to > > > > > the > > > > > > > available > > > > > > > > > > vocabularies > of > > > > > > > > > > > visual > > > > > > > > > > > > representation and > > > the > > > > way in > > > > > > which > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > determine or > > > > > > > > > > > influence > the > > > > > > > > > > > universe > of visual > > > > > > repsesentatiation, > > > > > > > if > > > > > > > > only to > > > > > > > > > > underline > > > > > > > > > > > the fact > > > > > > > > > > > that no > visual > > > artist is > > > > ever > > > > > > divorced > > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > context tat > > > > > > > > > > > they are > > > > > > > > > > > born > into. I have > > > > nowhere > > > > > written > > > > > > > about why > > > > > > > > > Husain > > > > > > > > > > does > > > > > > > > > > > not > choose > > > > > > > > > > > to > represent themes > > > from > > > > the > > > > > > Islamic > > > > > > > canon, > > > > > > > > and I > > > > > > > > > > totally > > > > > > > > > > > agree > with > > > > > > > > > > > you that > he does > > > not do > > > > so > > > > > because > > > > > > they > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > available > > > > > > > > > > > to him in > > > > > > > > > > > his > cultural miieu, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for > apparently > > > > > transgressive > > > > > > cases > > > > > > > like > > > > > > > > > Husain or > > > > > > > > > > Dillu > > > > > > > > > > > Ram > > > > > > > > > > > Kausari, > I cannnot > > > see > > > > why > > > > > they > > > > > > should > > > > > > > not b > > > > > > > > > > celebrated. > > > > > > > > > > > Hindus > > > > > > > > > > > should > honour > > > Husain and > > > > > Muslims > > > > > > should > > > > > > > > honour > > > > > > > > > Dillu > > > > > > > > > > Ram. > > > > > > > > > > > In this > way > > > > > > > > > > > they > would ensure > > > that > > > > acts > > > > > of > > > > > > > 'road > > > > > > > > > crossing' > > > > > > > > > > need > > > > > > > > > > > not > necessarily > > > > > > > > > > > end in > lethal > > > accidents, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > warm > regards, and > > > hoping > > > > for > > > > > many > > > > > > more > > > > > > > road > > > > > > > > > crossings, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On > 29-Aug-08, at > > > 8:25 > > > > PM, > > > > > Yousuf > > > > > > Saeed > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear > Shuddha, > > > > others > > > > > > > > > > > > I > really > > > appreciate > > > > your > > > > > > > highlighting > > > > > > > > of the > > > > > > > > > fact > > > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > > Hussain's > > > > > > > > > > > > > intention may > > > not > > > > be of > > > > > > insulting > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > Hindus > > > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > > > drawing > the deities > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in > the nude or > > > > > otherwise. I > > > > > > am not > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > defender of > > > > > > > > > > > Hussain, > but would > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > like > to put > > > across > > > > a few > > > > > > points. > > > > > > > Many > > > > > > > > people > > > > > > > > > (on > > > > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > > > list and > > > > > > > > > > > > > elsewhere) > > > have > > > > pointed > > > > > out > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > Hussain > > > > > > > > > never > > > > > > > > > > drew > > > > > > > > > > > any > Muslim > > > > > > > > > > > > > character > > > (such as > > > > the > > > > > > Prophet) in > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > manner, > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > therefore > his > > > > > > > > > > > > > intention must > > > be > > > > to > > > > > insult > > > > > > the > > > > > > > Hindus. > > > > > > > > They > > > > > > > > > also > > > > > > > > > > say > > > > > > > > > > > that such > an > > > > > > > > > > > > act > by any > > > artist > > > > in a > > > > > Muslim > > > > > > > country > > > > > > > > (like > > > > > > > > > Saudi > > > > > > > > > > > Arabia) > would > > > > > > > > > > > > > result in > > > death > > > > penalty, > > > > > and > > > > > > so > > > > > > > on. But > > > > > > > > > maybe > > > > > > > > > > Hussain > > > > > > > > > > > did not > draw > > > > > > > > > > > > an > Islamic > > > > character in > > > > > an > > > > > > > > > > "immodest" > > > > > > > > > > > posture > simply > > > because > > > > such > > > > > > > > > > > > an > image or > > > icon > > > > > doesn't > > > > > > exist > > > > > > > in the > > > > > > > > > > Islam's > > > > > > > > > > > visual > cultural > > > > > > > > > > > > > tradition. If > > > he > > > > does > > > > > it, > > > > > > then > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > would be > > > > > > > > > > > > deliberately > > > > > > > > > > > > > provocative > > > > (although I > > > > > am > > > > > > not > > > > > > > saying > > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > > shouldn't > > > > > > > > > > > be done). > But he > > > > > > > > > > > > > could draw a > > > Hindu > > > > deity > > > > > in > > > > > > the > > > > > > > nude > > > > > > > > because > > > > > > > > > such > > > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > > > tradition > > > > > > > > > > > > > exists in our > > > > Indian > > > > > visual > > > > > > > culture. I > > > > > > > > doubt > > > > > > > > > if > > > > > > > > > > he > > > > > > > > > > > avoids > > > > > > > > > > > > the > depiction > > > of > > > > Muslim > > > > > > themes > > > > > > > because > > > > > > > > he > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > scared > > > > > > > > > > > of the > > > > > > > > > > > > > Islamists. > > > Maybe he > > > > > simply > > > > > > > can't > > > > > > > > relate > > > > > > > > > to it > > > > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > > > an > Indian. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If I > as an > > > artist > > > > cannot > > > > > > express > > > > > > > my > > > > > > > > certain > > > > > > > > > > feelings > > > > > > > > > > > in the > > > > > > > > > > > > > language that > > > has > > > > been > > > > > taught > > > > > > to > > > > > > > be me > > > > > > > > by my > > > > > > > > > > parents, > > > > > > > > > > > and I > > > > > > > > > > > > > suddenly > > > discover a > > > > new > > > > > > language > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > allows > > > > > > > > > me > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > express > that > > > > > > > > > > > > > peculiar > > > feeling in > > > > a > > > > > much > > > > > > better > > > > > > > way > > > > > > > > than > > > > > > > > > what > > > > > > > > > > my > > > > > > > > > > > mother > tongue > > > > > > > > > > > > did, > I would > > > be > > > > happy to > > > > > use > > > > > > the > > > > > > > new > > > > > > > > > language. > > > > > > > > > > There > > > > > > > > > > > are > thousands > > > > > > > > > > > > of > poets and > > > > artists who > > > > > > found a > > > > > > > new > > > > > > > > way of > > > > > > > > > > expression > > > > > > > > > > > in a > > > > > > > > > > > > > language which > > > > every one > > > > > in > > > > > > their > > > > > > > midst > > > > > > > > had > > > > > > > > > found > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "inferior" – > > > > I am > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > talking for > > > example > > > > of > > > > > the > > > > > > > tradition of > > > > > > > > > Persian > > > > > > > > > > poets > > > > > > > > > > > of South > Asia > > > > > > > > > > > > who > also wrote > > > > verses in > > > > > > Hindi or > > > > > > > > Hinduvi. > > > > > > > > > While > > > > > > > > > > poets > > > > > > > > > > > such as > > > > > > > > > > > > > Masud Sa'd > > > > Salman, > > > > > Amir > > > > > > > Khusrau, > > > > > > > > > Abdurrahim > > > > > > > > > > > > Khane-khana, > > > Ghalib, or > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Iqbal became > > > famous > > > > for > > > > > their > > > > > > > exquisite > > > > > > > > > verse in > > > > > > > > > > > Persian, > their > > > > > > > > > > > > > heart pours > > > out > > > > better > > > > > in > > > > > > their > > > > > > > > Hinduvi, > > > > > > > > > Urdu or > > > > > > > > > > Braj > > > > > > > > > > > poetry > where > > > > > > > > > > > > they > can come > > > down > > > > to > > > > > the > > > > > > earth > > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > lofty > > > > > > > > > > royal > > > > > > > > > > > palaces. > We > > > > > > > > > > > > > often say, > > > > "Unki > > > > > Hindi > > > > > > > shayeri > > > > > > > > mein > > > > > > > > > mitti ki > > > > > > > > > > > khushbu > aati > > > hai" > > > > (one > > > > > > > > > > > > can > smell the > > > earth > > > > in > > > > > their > > > > > > > vernacular > > > > > > > > > poetry). > > > > > > > > > > And I > > > > > > > > > > > > > think Hussain > > > is > > > > no > > > > > > different > > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > them. He > > > > > > > > > > cannot > > > > > > > > > > > draw an > Islamic > > > > > > > > > > > > > character in > > > the > > > > nude > > > > > because > > > > > > > it's > > > > > > > > > probably > > > > > > > > > > not in > > > > > > > > > > > his > palette, or > > > > > > > > > > > > > doesn't > > > touch > > > > his > > > > > heart. > > > > > > (And > > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > cannot > > > > > > > > > force > > > > > > > > > > him > > > > > > > > > > > to do it > to > > > > > > > > > > > > > become more > > > > politically > > > > > > correct). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You > may say > > > that a > > > > lot > > > > > of > > > > > > > > semi-pornographic > > > > > > > > > > scenes > > > > > > > > > > > have been > drawn > > > > > > > > > > > > in > Mughal or > > > > Persian > > > > > > miniatures, > > > > > > > and he > > > > > > > > > could > > > > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > > followed > that. > > > > > > > > > > > > But > that's > > > not > > > > the > > > > > point. > > > > > > > Hindu > > > > > > > > deities > > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > > flexible > enough for > > > us > > > > > > > > > > > > to > turn them > > > around > > > > the > > > > > way > > > > > > we > > > > > > > wish, to > > > > > > > > > express a > > > > > > > > > > > certain > feeling > > > > > > > > > > > > that > cannot be > > > > expressed > > > > > any > > > > > > other > > > > > > > way. > > > > > > > > So > > > > > > > > > why > > > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > > > appreciate and > > > > > > > > > > > > > celebrate that > > > > fact. (I > > > > > know > > > > > > such > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > statement > > > > > > > > > > from me > > > > > > > > > > > might > raise > > > > > > > > > > > > some > > > eyebrows). I > > > > maybe > > > > > a > > > > > > Muslim > > > > > > > but I > > > > > > > > > appreciate > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > fact that > you > > > > > > > > > > > > can > literally > > > play > > > > with > > > > > many > > > > > > Hindu > > > > > > > > deities. > > > > > > > > > Just > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > other day > I > > > > > > > > > > > > > heard Pandit > > > Jasraj > > > > sing > > > > > a > > > > > > khayal > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > which > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > lyrics > > > > > > > > > > > > repeatedly > > > > > > > > > > > > > referred to > > > Krishna > > > > as a > > > > > chor > > > > > > > (thief). > > > > > > > > Does > > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > insult a > Hindu? Or > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > would it > > > insult a > > > > Hindu > > > > > if > > > > > > this > > > > > > > khayal > > > > > > > > was > > > > > > > > > sung > > > > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > > > Ustad > Amir Khan? > > > > > > > > > > > > > (Incidentally, > > > a > > > > large > > > > > number > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > traditional > > > > > > > > > > Hindu > > > > > > > > > > > > devotional > > > > > > > > > > > > > lyrics sung in > > > > classical > > > > > > music > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > reached > > > > > > > > > us > > > > > > > > > > via > > > > > > > > > > > Muslim > gharana > > > > > > > > > > > > > musicians, and > > > much > > > > of > > > > > > devotional > > > > > > > Hindu > > > > > > > > > visual > > > > > > > > > > > mythology > has come > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > to > us via > > > patwa > > > >artists > > > > > of > > > > > > Bengal > > > > > > > who > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > > > all > Muslim. > > > Can > > > > > M.F.Hussain > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > detached > > > > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > > continuity?) > > > > > > > > > > > > Much > of the > > > popular > > > > > calendar > > > > > > and > > > > > > > poster > > > > > > > > art > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > 20th > > > > > > > > > > > century > showing > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hindu deities > > > was > > > > drawn > > > > > by an > > > > > > > artist > > > > > > > > called > > > > > > > > > Hasan > > > > > > > > > > Raza > > > > > > > > > > > Raja of > > > > > > > > > > > > > Meerut. And > > > the > > > > manner > > > > > in > > > > > > which > > > > > > > most > > > > > > > > Hindu > > > > > > > > > > deities are > > > > > > > > > > > > visualized > > > > > > > > > > > > > today comes > > > from > > > > the > > > > > > pioneering > > > > > > > work of > > > > > > > > Raja > > > > > > > > > Ravi > > > > > > > > > > > Varma who > was > > > > > > > > > > > > > clearly > > > inspired by > > > > > western > > > > > > style > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > art > > > > > > > > > where > > > > > > > > > > human > > > > > > > > > > > models > were > > > > > > > > > > > > used > to > > > visualize > > > > the > > > > > gods > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > goddesses. > > > > > > > > > So, > > > > > > > > > > does all > > > > > > > > > > > this > insult > > > > > > > > > > > > the > Hindus? > > > And > > > > what is > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > "original" > > > > > > > > > > Hindu > > > > > > > > > > > way of > imagining > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > deities any > > > way? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I > liked your > > > > quoting > > > > > from > > > > > > Kausari > > > > > > > who > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > among > > > > > > > > > > many > > > > > > > > > > > Hindu > poets who > > > > > > > > > > > > have > > > > written/announced > > > > > their > > > > > > > emotive > > > > > > > > > affiliation > > > > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > > > Prophet > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mohammad in > > > the > > > > same way > > > > > as > > > > > > say > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > Krishna. I > > > > > > > > > > doubt > > > > > > > > > > > if such > > > > > > > > > > > > > actions in the > > > past > > > > may > > > > > have > > > > > > met > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > much > > > > > > > > > > resistance > > > > > > > > > > > (as you > have > > > > > > > > > > > > > mentioned) – > > > such > > > > > examples > > > > > > were > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > norm. > > > > > > > > > There > > > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > > many > Hindu poets > > > > > > > > > > > > who > have > > > written > > > > > marsiyas > > > > > > full of > > > > > > > > pathos for > > > > > > > > > Imam > > > > > > > > > > > > Hussain's > > > > > > > > > > > > > martyrdom, and > > > many > > > > > Muslim > > > > > > poets > > > > > > > who > > > > > > > > > composed > > > > > > > > > > adorable > > > > > > > > > > > songs for > > > > > > > > > > > > > Krishna. I > > > > don't > > > > > think it > > > > > > was > > > > > > > too > > > > > > > > hard > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > cross > > > > > > > > > > > the road > in those > > > > > > > > > > > > > days. So, why > > > are > > > > we > > > > > busy > > > > > > throwing > > > > > > > > stones > > > > > > > > > onto > > > > > > > > > > each > > > > > > > > > > > other > from the > > > > > > > > > > > > two > sides of a > > > > road? I > > > > > could > > > > > > > imagine > > > > > > > > that at > > > > > > > > > > least an > > > > > > > > > > > online > forum > > > > > > > > > > > > like > Sarai > > > could > > > > act > > > > > like a > > > > > > subway > > > > > > > or a > > > > > > > > > walk-over > > > > > > > > > > > bridge to > cross > > > > > > > > > > > > the > busy > > > highway. > > > > But > > > > > > currently it > > > > > > > > seems > > > > > > > > > more > > > > > > > > > > like a > > > > > > > > > > > > road-block. > > > > > > > > > > > > And > we are all > > > > paying > > > > > the > > > > > > toll. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yousuf > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > On Fri, > > > > 8/29/08, > > > > > > Shuddhabrata > > > > > > > > Sengupta > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > From: > > > > Shuddhabrata > > > > > > Sengupta > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Subject: > > > > > [Reader-list] > > > > > > Ways of > > > > > > > Life > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > Transgressions > > > > > > > > > > > >> > To: > > > "Sarai > > > > > > list" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Date: > > > Friday, > > > > August > > > > > 29, > > > > > > 2008, > > > > > > > 1:31 > > > > > > > > PM > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Dear All, > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > I have > > > been > > > > > intrigued by > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > exchange on > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > list > > > > > > > > > > > of late > > > > > > > > > > > >> > that has > > > > > > > > > > > >> > preferred > > > to > > > > > jettison the > > > > > > term > > > > > > > > > > > 'religion' > > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > >> > prefer in > > > its > > > > stead > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > euphimistic > > > > phrase - > > > > > > 'ways > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > life'. > > > > > > > > > > I am > > > > > > > > > > > referring > > > > > > > > > > > >> > to the > > > exchange > > > > > > > > > > > >> > between > > > > Chanchal > > > > > Malviya > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > Jeebesh > > > > > > > > > Bagchi, > > > > > > > > > > > arising > out of > > > > > > > > > > > >> > the > > > > > > > > > > > >> > heated > > > > > correspondence on > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > disruption > > > > > > > > > of a > > > > > > > > > > small > > > > > > > > > > > >> > exhibition > > > > devoted > > > > > > > > > > > >> > to > > > M.F.Husain. > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > i am quite > > > > convinced > > > > > that > > > > > > the > > > > > > > term > > > > > > > > > > > > 'religion' > > > > > > > > > > > >> > which > > > derives > > > > from > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > >> > latin root > > > of > > > > the > > > > > word > > > > > > religio > > > > > > > > (bond) > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > religare > > > > > > > > > > > (the > > > > > > > > > > > >> > verb form > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > >> > 'to > > > > bind') > > > > > > remains for > > > > > > > me a > > > > > > > > > useful > > > > > > > > > > word to > > > > > > > > > > > name the > > > > > > > > > > > >> > act of > > > > committing > > > > > > > > > > > >> > oneself in > > > any > > > > form. > > > > > In > > > > > > this > > > > > > > sense, > > > > > > > > > atheists > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > agnostics > > > > > > > > > > > >> > are just > > > > > > > > > > > >> > as > > > religious > > > > (in > > > > > their > > > > > > > commitment > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > doubt) > > > > > > > > > > as are > > > > > > > > > > > those > > > > > > > > > > > >> > blessed > > > with > > > > > > > > > > > >> > faith. I > > > would > > > > > describe > > > > > > my > > > > > > > > religious > > > > > > > > > > commitment as > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > agnosticism - a > > > > > > > > > > > >> > commitment > > > to > > > > doubt > > > > > > > everything, > > > > > > > > > (including > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > value of > > > > > > > > > > > >> > doubt) and > > > a > > > > > > > > > > > >> > certainty > > > that > > > > we > > > > > cannot > > > > > > speak > > > > > > > > certainly > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > anything > at > > > > > > > > > > > >> > all, > > > because > > > > > > > > > > > >> > there are > > > > always > > > > > > > counterfactuals, > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > hitherto > > > > > > > > > > > > unimagined, > > > > > > > > > > > >> > or unknown > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > possibilities, > > > > that > > > > > goad > > > > > > us on > > > >> > > to > > > > > > > > yet > > > > > > > > > newer > > > > > > > > > > > > possibilities, > > > > > > > > > > > >> > or to > > > > > > > > > > > >> > return to > > > some > > > > very > > > > > old > > > > > > ones. > > > > > > > This > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > just to > > > > > > > > > > say > > > > > > > > > > > that it > > > > > > > > > > > >> > would be a > > > > > > > > > > > >> > mistake to > > > > assume, > > > > > as is > > > > > > often > > > > > > > done > > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > some > > > > > > > > > > > arrogance > on > > > > > > > > > > > >> > the part > > > > > > > > > > > >> > of the > > > more > > > > > pronouncedly > > > > > > > > > 'faithful', > > > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > atheists > > > > > > > > > > > >> > and > > > agnostics > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > > >> > no > > > > > 'spiritual' > > > > > > quests. > > > > > > > They > > > > > > > > do, > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > > > dont, > just > > > > > > > > > > > >> > as those > > > who > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > ostentatiously > > > > > > > 'religious' > > > > > > > > do, > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > dont, > > > > > > > > > > > or do > only > > > > > > > > > > > >> > in as much > > > as > > > > it > > > > > > > > > > > >> > allows > > > them to > > > > burn > > > > > a few > > > > > > > churches > > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > they go > > > > > > > > > > > questing. > If > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Hindu > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > fundamentalists > > > > have > > > > > > chosen to > > > > > > > > renounce > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > ties > > > > > > > > > > > that bind > > > > > > > > > > > >> > (religio) > > > > > > > > > > > >> > them to > > > life, > > > > who > > > > > would I > > > > > > be > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > object, > > > > > > > > > > because, I > > > > > > > > > > > am not a > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Hindu. > > > > > > > > > > > >> > But I have > > > no > > > > > quarrel > > > > > > with the > > > > > > > term > > > > > > > > > 'ways > > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > life'. > > > > > > > > > > > >> > The more > > > words > > > > we > > > > > > > > > > > >> > have, the > > > > better. > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > This > > > discussion > > > > > arose out > > > > > > of a > > > > > > > rage > > > > > > > > felt > > > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > > some > > > > > > > > > > > that a > > > > > > > > > > > >> > group of > > > > > > > > > > > >> > zealots > > > had > > > > broken > > > > > and > > > > > > > disrupted an > > > > > > > > > > exhibition > > > > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > >> > featured > > > some > > > > > > > > > > > >> > images of > > > and > > > > by > > > > > Husain, > > > > > > and > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > counter > > > > > > > > > rage > > > > > > > > > > felt > > > > > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > > > >> > others > > > that the > > > > > > > > > > > >> > zealots > > > had no > > > > right > > > > > to > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > criticised > > > > > > > > > because > > > > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > > > were > > > > > > > > > > > >> > acting to > > > > > > > > > > > >> > protect > > > the > > > > honour > > > > > of the > > > > > > > Hindu > > > > > > > > deities > > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > > > felt > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Husain had > > > > > > > > > > > >> > insulted. > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > The second > > > case > > > > is > > > > > as > > > > > > follows > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > what > > > > > > > > > right > > > > > > > > > > has > > > > > > > > > > > Husain, a > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Muslim to > > > > > > > > > > > >> > insult > > > Hindu > > > > deities > > > > > by > > > > > > > portraying > > > > > > > > them > > > > > > > > > in a > > > > > > > > > > > manner > that is > > > > > > > > > > > >> > offensive > > > > > > > > > > > >> > to the > > > > sentiments of > > > > > many > > > > > > > Hindus. > > > > > > > > > > (Husain's > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > motivations, or > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > >> > aesthetic > > > merit > > > > of > > > > > his > > > > > > images > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > issue > > > > > > > > > > > here, > what > > > > > > > > > > > >> > is at > > > > > > > > > > > >> > issue is > > > the > > > > insult > > > > > seen > > > > > > to > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > occurred > > > > > > > > > > when a > > > > > > > > > > > non-Hindu > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > 'touches' > > > > > > > > > > > >> > a sacred > > > Hindu > > > > icon > > > > > with > > > > > > his > > > > > > > > > > > 'insulting' > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > imagination. > > > > Those > > > > > so > > > > > > > > > > > >> > enraged, > > > also > > > > throw > > > > > the > > > > > > > following > > > > > > > > > challenge, > > > > > > > > > > has > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > >> > opposite > > > ever > > > > > > > > > > > >> > occurred? > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > I am not > > > here > > > > to > > > > > make a > > > > > > case > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > Husain. > > > > > > > > > (As > > > > > > > > > > I > > > > > >> > > > > have said > > > > > > > > > > > >> > before I > > > do > > > > > > > > > > > >> > not have a > > > very > > > > high > > > > > > opinion > > > > > > > of his > > > > > > > > work > > > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > > an > > > > > > > > > > > artist). > I > > > > > > > > > > > >> > am here to > > > > > > > > > > > >> > make a > > > case for > > > > what > > > > > is > > > > > > > considered > > > > > > > > to be > > > > > > > > > > > > transgression. No > > > > > > > > > > > >> > one can be > > > > > > > > > > > >> > sure when > > > they > > > > have > > > > > > > transgressed. > > > > > > > > > Because > > > > > > > > > > > > transgression can > > > > > > > > > > > >> > be seen > > > > > > > > > > > >> > to occur > > > even > > > > when > > > > > the > > > > > > motives > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > person > > > > > > > > > > > concerned > are > > > > > > > > > > > >> > far from > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > transgression. > > > > > Husain can > > > > > > say > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > his > > > > > > > > > defence, > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > indeed > > > > > > > > > > > >> > has on > > > > > > > > > > > >> > occasion > > > said > > > > that > > > > > his > > > > > > > paintings > > > > > > > > are an > > > > > > > > > index > > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > his > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > appreciation of > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Indic > > > culture > > > > and > > > > > its > > > > > > > diversity of > > > > > > > > > > expressions, > of > > > > > > > > > > > his > > > > > > > > > > > >> > closeness > > > > > > > > > > > >> > (since > > > early > > > > > childhood) > > > > > > to > > > > > > > forms of > > > > > > > > > iconic > > > > > > > > > > imagery > > > > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > > >> > popular > > > > Hinduism. > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Here his > > > intent > > > > is > > > > > > clearly not > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > insult, on > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > contrary, > > > > > > > > > > > >> > it is to > > > > > > > > > > > >> > declare > > > his > > > > > appreciation > > > > > > for > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > beauty > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > iconography > > > > > > > > > > > >> > of popular > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Hinduism, > > > a > > > > charge > > > > > for > > > > > > which > > > > > > > he > > > > > > > > would be > > > > > > > > > > equally > > > > > > > > > > > hated by > > > > > > > > > > > >> > both Hindu > > > > > > > > > > > >> > as well as > > > > Muslim > > > > > > > fundamentalists. > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > It has not > > > been > > > > > noticed > > > > > > that > > > > > > > no > > > > > > > > Muslim > > > > > > > > > > > > fundamentalist or > > > > > > > > > > > >> > even > > > Muslim > > > > > > > > > > > >> > religious > > > > figure has > > > > > come > > > > > > out > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > defence > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > Husain. > They > > > > > > > > > > > >> > are in > > > fact > > > > > > > > > > > >> > in tacit > > > > agreement > > > > > with > > > > > > their > > > > > > > Hindu > > > > > > > > > peers. A > > > > > > > > > > > Muslim > making > > > > > > > > > > > >> > images, > > > > > > > > > > > >> > and that > > > too of > > > > > Hindu > > > > > > > goddesses, > > > > > > > > because > > > > > > > > > he > > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > drawn to > > > > > > > > > > > >> > them, can > > > > > > > > > > > >> > only be > > > seen as > > > > > blasphemy > > > > > > in > > > > > > > their > > > > > > > > eyes. > > > > > > > > > On > > > > > > > > > > this, > > > > > > > > > > > like on > > > > > > > > > > > >> > so many > > > > > > > > > > > >> > other > > > issues, > > > > Hindu > > > > > and > > > > > > Muslim > > > > > > > > > > > fundamentalists are > > > > > > > > > > > in total > > > > > > > > > > > >> > agreement. > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Let me > > > come now > > > > to > > > > > an > > > > > > > interesting > > > > > > > > > > counterfactual > > > > > > > > > > > argument. > > > > > > > > > > > >> > I refer to > > > > > > > > > > > >> > the life > > > an > > > > work of > > > > > a > > > > > > little > > > > > > > known > > > > > > > > late > > > > > > > > > > nineteenth > > > > > > > > > > > century > > > > > > > > > > > >> > and early > > > > > > > > > > > >> > twentieth > > > > century > > > > > Urdu > > > > > > poet of > > > > > > > > Delhi > > > > > > > > > called > > > > > > > > > > Dillu > > > > > > > > > > > Ram > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Kausari. > > > Now as > > > > > > > > > > > >> > his name > > > > suggests, > > > > > Dillu > > > > > > Ram > > > > > > > was a > > > > > > > > > Hindu. The > > > > > > > > > > > trouble > is, > > > > > > > > > > > >> > throughout > > > > > > > > > > > >> > his life > > > he > > > > composed > > > > > > > deliriously > > > > > > > > > passionate > > > > > > > > > > > elegies > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > (na'at) to > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Prophet > > > > Muhammad. > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > One of his > > > > quatrains > > > > > went > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > follows > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Kuch > > > 'ishq e > > > > > Muhammad > > > > > > mein > > > > > > > nahin > > > > > > > > shart > > > > > > > > > e > > > > > > > > > > > Musulman! > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Hai > > > Kausari > > > > Hindu > > > > > bhii > > > > > > > talabgaar e > > > > > > > > > Muhammad! > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Allah re! > > > kyaa > > > > > raunaq e > > > > > > bazaar > > > > > > > e > > > > > > > > > Muhammad > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Ke > > > Ma'bood e > > > > Jahan > > > > > bhi > > > > > > hai > > > > > > > > kharidaar e > > > > > > > > > > Muhammad! > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Being a > > > Muslim > > > > is > > > > > not a > > > > > > > condition > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > loving > > > > > > > > > > > Muhammad! > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Kausari, > > > the > > > > Hindu, > > > > > is > > > > > > also a > > > > > > > > seeker of > > > > > > > > > > Muhammad! > > > > > > > > > > > >> > By Allah! > > > How > > > > > delightful > > > > > > is > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > bazaar > > > > >> > > > of > > > > > > > > > > Muhammad > > > > > > > > > > > >> > For the > > > Lord of > > > > the > > > > > > Worlds is > > > > > > > also > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > buyer of > > > > > > > > > > > Muhammad! > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > This kind > > > of > > > > > sentiment > > > > > > shocked > > > > > > > both > > > > > > > > > Hindus > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > Muslims. > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Hindus, > > > > > > > > > > > >> > because > > > how > > > > could a > > > > > Hindu > > > > > > sing > > > > > > > what > > > > > > > > > amounted > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > love > songs > > > > > > > > > > > >> > to a > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Muslim > > > prophet, > > > > and > > > > > > Muslims, > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > same > > > > > > > > > > reason. > > > > > > > > > > > Both felt > > > > > > > > > > > >> > slighted > > > > > > > > > > > >> > and > > > insulted by > > > > the > > > > > > > transgressive > > > > > > > > way in > > > > > > > > > > which the > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > imagination of > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > >> > poet had > > > > > > 'touched' the > > > > > > > body > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > what > > > > > > > > > > was > > > > > > > > > > > sacred > for > > > > > > > > > > > >> > one, and > > > not, > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > > >> > the other. > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Another > > > poem, > > > > which > > > > > > proved to > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > even > > > > > > > > > more > > > > > > > > > > > > controversial, > > > > > > > > > > > >> > went like > > > > > > > > > > > >> > this - > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > Rahmatulilalamin kay > > > > > > Hashar > > > > > > > mein > > > > > > > > > maana' > > > > > > > > > > khulay > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Khalq > > > saari > > > > Shaafa e > > > > > Roz > > > > > > e > > > > > > > Jaza kay > > > > > > > > > saath hai > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Laykay > > > Dillu > > > > Raam ko > > > > > > jannat > > > > > > > mein > > > > > > > > jab > > > > > > > > > Hazrat > > > > > > > > > > gaye > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Ma'loom > > > huwa > > > > kay > > > > > Hindu > > > > > > bhi > > > > > > > > Mahboob e > > > > > > > > > Khuda > > > > > > > > > > kay > > > > > > > > > > > saath > hai! > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > The > > > meaning of > > > > > "Mercy > > > > > > unto > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > Worlds" > > > > > > > > > > became > > > > > > > > > > > apparent > > > > > > > > > > > >> > on > > > Judgement > > > > Day: > > > > > > > > > > > >> > The whole > > > > creation > > > > > is > > > > > > with the > > > > > > > > > Intercessor of > > > >> > > > > > The > > > > > > > > > > > Day of > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Acquittal > > > > > > > > > > > >> > When the > > > > Prophet > > > > > took > > > > > > Dillu > > > > > > > Ram > > > > > > > > with him > > > > > > > > > into > > > > > > > > > > > Paradise > > > > > > > > > > > >> > It was > > > known > > > > that > > > > > this > > > > > > Hindu > > > > > > > too is > > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > Beloved > of > > > > > > > > > > > >> > God! > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > This poem, > > > > > especially > > > > > > > scandalized > > > > > > > > Muslim > > > > > > > > > > > > orthodoxy, because > > > > > > > > > > > >> > it dared > > > > > > > > > > > >> > to suggest > > > that > > > > the > > > > > > prophet > > > > > > > himself > > > > > > > > > would > > > > > > > > > > > intercede > on > > > > > > > > > > > >> > behalf of > > > an > > > > > > > > > > > >> > unbeliever > > > on > > > > the > > > > > day of > > > > > > > judgement. > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > It is > > > > interesting to > > > > > note > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > Dillu Ram > > > > > > > > > > never > > > > > > > > > > > became a > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Muslim, at > > > > > > > > > > > >> > least not > > > in > > > > his > > > > > > lifetime. An > > > > > > > > article in > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > interesting > > > > > > > > > > > >> > web portal > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Chowk > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.chowk.com/articles/12692 by > > > > > > > > > > one > > > > > > > > > > > Asif > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Naqshbandi > > > says > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > "It > > > is > > > > also > > > > > said > > > > > > that > > > > > > > Dillu > > > > > > > > Ram, > > > > > > > > > > delirious > > > > > > > > > > > with his > > > > > > > > > > > >> > love, > > > would > > > > > > > > > >> >> > sometimes > > > stand > > > > in > > > > > the > > > > > > middle > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > bazaar > > > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > > Delhi, > put > > > > > > > > > > > >> > chains > > > > > > > > > > > >> > around his > > > neck > > > > and > > > > > feet > > > > > > and > > > > > > > shout > > > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > > the top > > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > his voice > > > > > > > > > > > >> > to all > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > passers-by, > > > > > "Muhammad! > > > > > > > Muhammad! > > > > > > > > > Muhammad! > > > > > > > > > > Yes! > > > > > > > > > > > Muhammad > > > > > > > > > > > >> > is the > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Beloved of > > > God! > > > > > Muhammad > > > > > > is > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > first > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > only > > > > > > > > > > > Beloved > of > > > > > > > > > > > >> > God! If > > > God > > > > > > > > > > > >> > loves you, > > > He > > > > loves > > > > > you > > > > > > > because of > > > > > > > > His > > > > > > > > > > Beloved!" > > > > > > > > > > > Some > > > > > > > > > > > >> > people > > > even > > > > > > > > > > > >> > stoned him > > > and > > > > he > > > > > would > > > > > > often > > > > > > > come > > > > > > > > home > > > > > > > > > > covered in > > > > > > > > > > > blood > > > > > > > > > > > >> > but he was > > > > > > > > > > > >> > totally > > > lost in > > > > his > > > > > love > > > > > > of > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > Prophet > > > > > > > > > > (peace and > > > > > > > > > > > >> > blessings > > > be > > > > upon > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > him!)" > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > There is > > > an > > > > > apocryphal > > > > > > story > > > > > > > of how > > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > > his > > > > > > > > > > > deathbed > Dillu > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Ram > > > Kausari > > > > > > > > > > > >> > had a > > > vision of > > > > the > > > > > > Prophet > > > > > > > > himself, who > > > > > > > > > came > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > him, and > > > > > > > > > > > >> > that he > > > > > > > > > > > >> > read the > > > Kalima > > > > with > > > > > him. > > > > > > But > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > vision > > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > reported > to > > > > > > > > > > > >> > have > > > > > > > > > > > >> > appeared > > > only > > > > to > > > > > him, as > > > > > > he > > > > > > > lay > > > > > > > > dying, > > > > > > > > > and as > > > > > > > > > > he > > > > > > > > > > > is no > > > > > > > > > > > >> > longer > > > with us > > > > > > > > > > > >> > to either > > > > confirm or > > > > > deny > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > deathbed > > > > > > > > > > > > conversion, we can > > > > > > > > > > > >> > only > > > > > > > > > > > >> > surmise > > > that it > > > > was > > > > > a > > > > > > > generous, but > > > > > > > > > somewhat > > > > > > > > > > > > disingenuous > > > > > > > > > > > >> > method of > > > > > > > > > > > >> > having > > > Dillu > > > > > Ram's > > > > > > > somewhat > > > > > > > > > unorthodox > > > > > > > > > > Muslim > > > > > > > > > > > >> > apologists > > > > claim him > > > > > > > > > > > >> > for > > > themselves. > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > As far as > > > we > > > > are > > > > > > concerned, > > > > > > > Dillu > > > > > > > > Ram > > > > > > > > > > Kausari, > > > > > > > > > > > caused > grave > > > > > > > > > > > >> > offence, > > > > > > > > > > > >> > by his > > > love for > > > > the > > > > > > Prophet, > > > > > > > both > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > Hindu as > > > > > > > > > > well > > > > > > > > > > > as to > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Muslim > > > > > > > > > > > >> > zealots, > > > as > > > > long as > > > > > he > > > > > > lived. > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > If, the > > > things > > > > we > > > > > call > > > > > > > religions > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > 'ways of > > > > > > > > > > > life' > > > > > > > > > > > >> > then we > > > can > > > > > > > > > > > >> > always > > > > determine for > > > > > > ourselves > > > > > > > > whether > > > > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > > > want to > > > > > > > > > > > walk on a > > > > > > > > > > > >> > one way > > > > > > > > > > > >> > street > > > that > > > > runs > > > > > into a > > > > > > dead > > > > > > > end, > > > > > > > > or to > > > > > > > > > cross > > > > > > > > > > many > > > > > > > > > > > paths, > > > > > > > > > > > >> > walking > > > > > > > > > > > >> > down one > > > way, > > > > for > > > > > one > > > > > > purpose, > > > > > > > down > > > > > > > > > another > > > > > > > > > > way > > > > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > > >> > another, > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > >> > sometimes > > > just > > > > > standing > > > > > > in > > > > > > > between > > > > > > > > > paths, > > > > > > > > > > figuring > > > > > > > > > > > out our > > > > > > > > > > > >> > journey, > > > > > > > > > > > >> > as we go > > > about > > > > our > > > > > lives. > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > I find > > > cases > > > > like > > > > > Husain > > > > > > and > > > > > > > Dillu > > > > > > > > Ram > > > > > > > > > > Kausari > > > > > > > > > > > > interesting > > > > > > > > > > > >> > not > > > > > > > > > > > >> > becauseof > > > what > > > > they > > > > > > paint of > > > > > > > what > > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > say, > > > > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > > > > because > > > > > > > > > > > >> > they seem > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > >> > cause such > > > > prolonged > > > > > > traffic > > > > > > > jams > > > > > > > > on the > > > > > > > > > > 'ways > > > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > >> > life'. > > > And > > > > all > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > > > >> > were doing > > > was > > > > > crossing > > > > > > the > > > > > > > road. > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > thanks and > > > > regards, > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > ----- > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Shuddhabrata > > > > > Sengupta > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > reader-list: an > > > > open > > > > > > > discussion > > > > > > > > list on > > > > > > > > > media > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > the city. > > > > > > > > > > > >> > Critiques > > > & > > > > > > Collaborations > > > > > > > > > > > >> > To > > > subscribe: > > > > send > > > > > an > > > > > > email to > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > subscribe > > > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > > the > subject > > > > > > > > > > > >> > header. > > > > > > > > > > > >> > To > > > unsubscribe: > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > > > > >> > List > > > archive: > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > > reader-list: > > > an > > > > open > > > > > > discussion > > > > > > > list on > > > > > > > > > media and > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > city. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Critiques > > > & > > > > > > Collaborations > > > > > > > > > > > > To > subscribe: > > > send > > > > an > > > > > email > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > subscribe in > > > the > > > > subject > > > > > > header. > > > > > > > > > > > > To > > > unsubscribe: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > > > > > List > archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shuddhabrata > > > Sengupta > > > > > > > > > > > The Sarai > Programme > > > at > > > > CSDS > > > > > > > > > > > Raqs > Media > > > Collective > > > > > > > > > > > > shuddha at sarai.net > > > > > > > > > > > > www.sarai.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > > reader-list: an > > > open > > > > > discussion > > > > > > list on > > > > > > > > media and > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > city. > > > > > > > > > > > Critiques > & > > > > > Collaborations > > > > > > > > > > > To > subscribe: send > > > an > > > > email > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > > with > > > > > > > subscribe > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > subject > > > > > > > > > > > header. > > > > > > > > > > > To > unsubscribe: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > > > > List > archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 3 20:53:35 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 08:23:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmir-Tanks on busy market squares - Harsh Mander In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <868258.43627.qm@web57210.mail.re3.yahoo.com> A hurried reply, but not in haste   Totally agree with what you have said and the way you have put it. --- On Wed, 9/3/08, S. Jabbar wrote: From: S. Jabbar Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmir-Tanks on busy market squares - Harsh Mander To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, "Sarai" Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 8:30 PM Yes I agree he ought to have been careful but I think what he’s referring to here is what we call commensurate force or lack thereof.  At the height of militancy in the ‘90s this could have been understandable but I think these things ought to be reviewed periodically and calibrated like troop strength and the locations of bunkers.   Do you really require armoured vehicles (bulletproof, mineproof, IED proof) with LMGs mounted on top at street corners in the Valley when the levels of incidents have dropped?  I’d feel pretty offended if one moved into my neighbourhood. I’ve objected to armed bodyguards that trail behind important politicians in Lodi Park.  I don’t like the way guns have littered our landscape and become part of it.  We’ve gotten so used to them now that we’ve almost forgotten what life looked like without them, when the policeman wielded nothing deadlier than a stout staff and the army man a bolt action three-naught-three.    From: Kshmendra Kaul Reply-To: Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 07:31:08 -0700 (PDT) To: Sarai , "S. Jabbar" Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmir-Tanks on busy market squares - Harsh Mander No.   But, if an idiot like me knows the difference, I would expect an IAS person to be much more aware.   All said.... A Tank, is a Tank, is a Tank, is a Tank ........   I am sure he would have seen pics of the 'Tank' in Tiananmen Square. Maybe he was transposing from that to  imagining Tanks in "busy market squares" ....."even in the small towns" of Kashmir.   --- On Wed, 9/3/08, S. Jabbar wrote: From: S. Jabbar Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmir-Tanks on busy market squares - Harsh Mander To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, "Sarai" Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 7:45 PM !! Do you really think the ability to distinguish between weaponry should become a criterion in the administrative services? From: Kshmendra Kaul Reply-To: Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 06:52:05 -0700 (PDT) To: Sarai , "S. Jabbar" Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmir-Tanks on busy market squares - Harsh Mander Well! Well! Well!   Mander is Ex IAS. Doesn't speak well of IAS.   Tanks have 'Tracks' and APCs (at least in India) are wheeled. The girth and general size are distinctly different.   I thought highly of Mander after his resigning from Govt service as a protest against the 'Gujarat Riots". But now .....   --- On Wed, 9/3/08, S. Jabbar wrote: From: S. Jabbar Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmir-Tanks on busy market squares - Harsh Mander To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, "Sarai" Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 6:58 PM A common mistake that people make when they come across armoured vehicles with LMGs mounted on top. > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Reply-To: > Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 06:14:17 -0700 (PDT) > To: sarai list > Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmir-Tanks on busy market squares - Harsh Mander > > The well known personality Harsh Mander is quoted as saying:   """"""" Even in > small towns, you encounter even today bullet-proof tanks stationed on busy > market squares ...... """""   Would someone please let me know if this is > true. Are there 'tanks' stationed on busy market squares even in the small > towns of Kashmir? This is the first time I have heard of this.   Ex IAS cadre > and current Director Action Aid India, Harsh Mander is not expected to speak > untruths. He is unlikely to mistake some other vehicle for being a > "tank".   If it is true then it is shameful.   If it is not true, then Harsh > Mander was being deliberately and deviously deceitful. "Tanks" being stationed > at busy market squares 'even in small towns' presents quite a damning > picture.   The quote is from a Press Release (02/09/08) by 'Kashmiri American > Council'  about a seminar in Columbus, Ohio, USA . It was at a convention of > ISNA (Islamic Society of North America).   Kshmendra > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an > email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>   From ishwarsridharan at yahoo.com Wed Sep 3 22:33:59 2008 From: ishwarsridharan at yahoo.com (Ishwar) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 10:03:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Have you seen this face of the world's largest democracy? Message-ID: <804552.52874.qm@web31807.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Judging the actions of a bygone era by today's ethics could turn out to be an exercise in futility. Besides, in "Built by King Ramadeva (2936-3005 B.C) with large ornamented and beautifully carved stones erecting it to the height of 50 yards." - 3300 B.C. to 1700 B.C. was the era of Indus Valley Civilisation, and Vedic Civilisation started only in 1500 B.C. The timeframes mentioned are off by atleast one and a half millennia. -- Ishwar Just another resurrected Neozoic Archosaur comics. http://www.flickr.com/photos/mojosaurus/sets/72157600257724083/ ----- Original Message ---- From: Pawan Durani To: sarai list Sent: Tuesday, September 2, 2008 9:28:51 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Have you seen this face of the world's largest democracy? The following brief is based on the recorded findings of Historians including Muslim chroniclers and foreign non-Hindu travelers). *TAPER TEMPLES* Sikandar the iconoclast desecrated and destroyed this temple which was built by Queen of Partapaditya II who reigned in Kashmir from 634 to 648 A.D. Zain-Ul-Abdin (1420-70) A.D. used stones and idols in the construction of Bund from the Naidkhal to Sopore. *SHANKARACHARYA MANDIR (SRINAGAR)* Noor Jehan, Queen of Jahangir, built the grand Mosque known as Pather Masjid (Srinagar) with the sculptured beautiful stones which formed steps of the mandir right from River Jhelum to the top of the hill. *NARPARISTHAN MANDIR (SRINAGAR)* Built by Likhana-Naraindraditya who reigned Kashmir from 178 to 191 A.D. has been turned into a Muslim ziarat called Narparisthan. *KALI MANDIR (SRINAGAR)* Qutab-Ud-din usurped it (1373-89) A.D. to be converted into a mosque in memory of Mir Syed Ali of Hamdan of Persia who had come to the Valley to establish Islam. Hindu King Pravarsena ll. had dedicated the Kali-Shrine to the Goddess Kali (79-139 A.D.). *MAHASHRI MANDIR (SRINAGAR)* It was turned into a graveyard, Wife of Sikander was buried in its interior. *SKANDA BHAWAN (SRINAGAR Downtown)* Its sacred springs and massive temple construction desecrated and spoilt, it was christened as Ziarat of Pir Mohd. Basur. *TRIBHAWANA-SVAMIN (SRINAGAR Downtown)* This temple built by Chadrapida (684 to 693 A.D.) was laid to ruins and its vast vicinity used as graveyard. *KSHANA-GANVISHVARA* Built in (950-58 A.D.) was desecrated. Its sculptured stones removed. DIDDA- MATHA (Srinagar downtown) Temple converted into Tomb of Malik Sahib. *VIKRAMISHVERA (VICHARNAG)* Built (521-63 A.D.) It was destroyed by Sikander. Material utilized to built a mosque nearby. *AMRITA BHAWANA* Constructed by Queen Magavahana (22 B.C -13 A.D.) There are other ruins of Hindu temples in its vicinity which have been converted into Ziarats and burial grounds and nothing is known about their antiquity. *RANESHVARA (SHALIMAR GARDEN)* Built by King Ramadatiya (414-74 A.D) On the North Eastern corner of the Dal Lake, Pravarsena II, the founder of Srinagar had built a Villa for a Hindu saint named Sukarna Swami. Bernier, who visited Kashmir with Aurangzeb, gives an interesting account of the garden in his travels and says that the doors and pillars made of stone were used in the garden during Mughal era had come from some of the idol temples demolished by Shah Jehan and that it was impossible to estimate their value. *MARTAND* Built by King Ramadeva (2936-3005 B.C) with large ornamented and beautifully carved stones erecting it to the height of 50 yards. Regarding this British Researcher Sir Walter Lawrence has remarked thus: While the old Hindu buildings defy time and weather, the Musalman shrines and mosques crumbled away. Other foreign travelers have recorded that Hindu temples were built to endure for all time. Their solidity of construction and their gigantic size strike one with wonder that puny man could have built them. They often gazed upon them with amazement and lamented bigoted Muslim fanatics who laid them to ruins with tremendous efforts. *TEMPLE OF BUZMA* It was usurped and converted into the Ziarat of Baba Bamdin. Another temple close by was turned into the tomb of Rukh Din, disciple of Muslim Priest Bamdin. *SHRINES AROUND DAL LAKE* The slopes of the mountains overlooking the Dal lake have adorned many ancient shrines mercilessly destroyed by bigoted Muslim fanatics. *SHARDA UNIVERSITY & ACADEMY OF LEARNING (VIJAISHORI, now BIJBEHARA)* Sir Walter Lawrence records in his ''Vale of Kashmir'' that all books of Hindu learning which bigoted Muslims could lay their hands on were sunk in the Dal lake and Sikander flattered himself that he had extirpated Hinduism from the Valley. Alberuni an Arab scholar recording his visit to Kashmir has stated that in all their grandeur the Hindus of Kashmir never slackened in their ardent desire of doing that which was good and right. He also records they were men of noble sentiments and noble bearing. Books of science, astronomy, space travel, medicine and the like were destroyed - The labor of countless ages and countless researchers. We quote here under from world famous work of *Mr. M. A. Stein:* *Rajtarangini - Kalhana (Volume II)* Moti Lal Banarsidass Publishers Pvt. Ltd. Delhi, Reprint 1989 *HILL OF SARIKA* Eastern slopes of the latter are now occupied by extensive buildings connected with famous ziarats of Maqaddam Sahib and Akhun Mullah Shah. It is probable that Mohammadan shrines have taken here place of Hindu religious buildings, just as at so many old sites of Kashmir. Close to the foot of the southern extremity of the hill is a rock which has from ancient times received worship as an embodiment of Ganesa under the name of BHIMASVAMIN...... In fact, if we are to believe Jonaraja, the rock image has changed its position yet a second time. This chronicler relates that BHIMASVAMIN from disgust at the iconoclasm of Sikander Butshikan had finally turned his back on city. Page 446, para 95 *TEMPLE OF SIVA PRAVARESVAPA* A short distance to the S. E. to the BHIMASVAMIN rock and outside Akbar's fortress, lies Ziarat of Baha-ud-din Sahib, built undoubtedly with the materials of an ancient temple. The cemetery which surrounds it contains also many ancient remains in its tombs and walls. At the S.W. corner of this cemetery rises a ruined gateway, built of stone blocks of remarkable size, and still of considerable height. This structure is traditionally believed by the Srinagar Pandits to have belonged to the Temple of SIVA PRAVARESVARA which Kalahana mentions as the first Shrine erected by PRAVARESVARA in his new capital. ...... Blocks majoring up to sixteen feet in length, with a width and thickness equally imposing, were no convenient materials for the builders of Muhammadan Ziarats, hammams etc. who have otherwise done so much to efface the remains of ancient structures in Srinagar. The position of the ruins is very central and might have well been chosen by the founder of Pravarapura for prominent shrine in his new city. *POSITION OF RAMASVAMIN TEMPLE* Not far from Baha-ud-din Sahib's Ziarat, to the S.W. stands Jami Masjid, the greatest Mosque of Srinagar. Around it numerous ancient remains attest the former exist- ence of Hindu Temples. Proceeding still further to S.W, in the midst of a thickly built city-quarter, we reach an ancient shrine which has remained in a comparatively fair state of preservation probably owing to its conversion into a ziarat. It is now supposed to mark the resting - place of the saint styled Pir Haji Mohammed. It consists of an octagonal cellar of which high basement and the side walls are sill- preserved. The quadrangular court in which it stands is enclosed by ancient walls and approached by or ornamented gateways. The position of this shrine has suggested me its possible identity with the ancient temple of VISNU RANASVAMIN which Kalhana mentions as founded by Ranaditya.This temple must have enjoyed considerable celebrity up to a comparatively late period. Mankha refers to it an object of his father's devotion, and Jonaraja in his comments on the passage speaks of VISNU RANASVAMIN as one of the chief shrines of Pravarapura. The evidence on which the suggested identification is based has been fully indicated in note iii.453. Page 447, para 96 *SKANDABHAVANA* The site of vihara has been traced by me in the close vicinity of Ziarat Pir Muhammad Basur. Certain ancient remains there were locally known and worshipped till the middle of the present century as a tirth sacred to Skanda. Near the SKANDABHAVANVIHARA there stood once the temple of Sivaparavaguptesvara referred to by Kalhana as a foundation of King Paravagupta. Page 448, Para 97 *SAMUDRAMATHA* A little higher up, if we can trust local tradition, stood the ancient temple of VARDHAMANESA mentioned already in King SAMDHIMAT'S reign. The site so designated by the purohits of the adjoining mohalla is close to the Malyar ghat. I have referred already in a previous note to the curious manner in which an ancient linga supposed to be that of VARDHAMANESA was recovered a few years ago from a neighbouring mosque and a Mahatmaya composed for the newly established shrine. Page 450 Para 99 *JUSKAPURA* A tradition recorded already by General Cunninghum identifies this place (Zukur) with ancient JUSKAPURA. Kalhana names the place as a foundation of Turuska (i.e Kusana ) King Juska who also built Vihara there. The Muhammadan shrines and tombs of the village contain considerable remains of the ancient buildings. Page 456, Para 104 *AMARESVARA* On the shore of the Anchar lies the large village of Amburher. It took its name from a temple of Siva Amaresvara which Suryamati, Ananta's queen, endowed with Agraharas and a matha.The ancient slabs and sculptured fragments which I found in 1895 in and around the ziarat of Farrukhzad Sahib, may possibly have belonged to this temple. Page 456,457 Para 104 *VICHARNAG* It is held be a manifestation of Ailapattra Nag who is mentioned also in Nilamata. An earlier designation seems to be MUKAMULAKANAGA which is given to the locality by Srivara and in the Tirthasamgraha. To the west of village and near an inlet of Anchar are the ruins of three ancient temples now converted into ziarats and tombs. *TIRTHA OF SODARA* Close to the mosque of Sodarbal and by the lake shore are two pools fed by perennial springs. These according to local tradition, were in old times visited by numerous piligrims. Now all recollection of this tirtha has been lost among the Brahmins of Srinagar. But a name of the portion of the village area, Battapor, points to a former settlement of Battas or Purohits. It is curious too that we find only half a mile from the village the ziarat of Hazatbal, perhaps the most popular of all muhammadan shrines in the valley. It is supposed to be built over the remains of the miracle-working Pir Dastagir Sahib. Is it possible that the presence of the rather ubiquitous saint at this particular spot had something to do with the earlier Hindu Tirtha? Page 457, Para 104 *PADMAPURA* The chief place of Vihi Pargana is now the town of Pampar, the ancient Padmapura, about 4 miles south west of Khunmoh. It was founded in the beginning of 9th century by Padma, the powerful uncle of puppet King Cippata/Jayapida. Padma is said by the chronicle to have also built a temple of Visnu-Padmasvamin. To this may possibly have belonged the scanty remains of an ancient temple which have been described by General Cunningham. Close by is the Ziarat of Mir Muhammad Hamadani with some fine ancient columns and ornamented slabs which are likely to have been taken from the temple. Also other Ziarats of the town show similar remains. *SANARA* Only a mile to the south east of Khruv is the village of Sar, until recently the seat of flourishing iron-industry, Kalhana mentions it by the name of Sanara as an Agrahara founded by King Sacinara------. The Ziarat of Khwaja Khizar which stands here near small springs is built with the remains of the Hindu Temple. Page 459, Para 105 About two miles south-west of Sar are found the well preserved ruins of a temple near the village Ladu (not marked on survey map). They have been described by Bishop Cowie, but I am unable to trace any old reference to this shrine in the texts I have examined. It is remarkable for having a circular cellar, the only one known to me in Kashmir. A small square cellar to the east of this temple has been annexed to a neighbouring Ziarat. Page 459-60, Para 105 *CAKRADHARA* It was once the site of one of the oldest and most famous shrines of the volley, the temple of Visnu Cakradhara.... The plateau is still as TSAKDAR UDAR.... The shrine of Cakaradhara is often mentioned as Tirtha of great sanctity. The temple seems to have been subsequently restored, and Jonaraja mentions the statue of CAKRADHARA among those chief divine images which Sikandar Butshikan destroyed. Page 461-62, Para 107 *TEMPLE OF SIVA VIJAYESVARA* The old Linga of Siva Vijayesvara seems to have been destroyed by Sikander Butshikast. Page 464, Para 109 *DISTRICT OF VAMAPARSVA* It forms the modern Pargana of Khovurpor. An old site is undoubtedly the large village of Hutmar. Its modern name seems to identify it with the SAKTAMATA which Ksemendra names as one of the stations in peregrinations of his heroin Kankali. The chief mosque of the place is built with the remains of a Hindu temple and preserves in its walls some sculptured fragments of remarkable beauty. *SHRINE OF BHIMAKESAVA* About a mile below Hutmar and on the bank of a branch of Lider lies the hamlet of Bumzu which contains an ancient structure of considerable historical interest. The Ziarat of Baba Bamdin Sahib is nothing but a well preserved resting place of a Muhammadan saint. Page 465, Para 110 *TEMPLE OF MARTANDA* The ancient remains at the sacred spring itself are very scanty. All the more imposing are the ruins of the great temple which King Lalitaditya erected at a short distance of the presiding deity of the tirtha. The destruction of the sacred image is ascribed to Sikander Butshikast. Page 166, Para 111 *SAMANGASA* About four miles to the north east of Kother and on a branch of Arpath river lies the populous village of Sangas, the ancient Samagasa......... some old carved slabs built into the chief Ziarat of the place attest its antiquity. Page 467,468, Para 112 *DISTRICT OF KARALA* In the lower portion of the district and on the left bank of Visoka, we have the ancient Katimuso, the present village of Kaimuh. The place Is mentloned by Kalhana as Agrahara, founded by Tunjina I, and contains some old remains built into its chief Ziarat. Page 471, Para 116 *PARIHASAPURA* It has received its name from the ancient Parihasapura which King Lilitaditya had built as his captal. The identity of the names Parspor and Parihasapura is evident on phonetic grounds, and was well known to the authors of the Persian abstracts of Rajatarangini. Yet curiously enough the site of Parihasapura had remained unidentified until I visited the spot in 1892 and traced the ruins of Lalitaditya's great structures as described by Kalhana on the Plateau known as Paraspor Udar. The full destruction of the temples is attributed by Abu-l-fazal and the Muhammadan chroniclers to Sikandar Butshikast. Page 477 and 478, Para 121 *VARAHAMULA* Varahamula, situated on the right river bank, has left its name to the present town of Varahmul, usually called Baramulla by Punjabis and other foreigners. The ancient temple of Varaha which seems to have been one of the most famous shrines of Kashmir, is repeatedly mentioned by Kalhana. According to the tradition of the local Purohits it stood near the site of the present Kotithirtha, at the western extemity of the town and close to the river bank. Some ancient Lingas and sculptures found at Kotitirtha may have originally belonged to the temple. The destruction of its sacred image is noted by Jonaraja in the reign of Sikandar Butshikast. Page 482-483, Para 124 After India achieved freedom and Kashmir acceded to Union of India, temple desecration was resumed. Temple lands, cremation grounds etc. of Hindus were usurped for expansion of Islam. The famous Bhairavnath Temple of Chattabal, Srinagar was got locked through police. The judicial case pending in court concerning this temple was never allowed to be decided. Precious lands around Hari Parbat hill, Durganag Temple of Srinagar and lands at several Hindu placcs of worship in the valley were slowly and steadily turned into lands under occupation of Muslim trusts (Maqboozai-Ahali-Islam). In 1967 Shivala Temple, Chotta Bazar, Srinagar was desecrated. Again in 1984 Shri Hanuman Temple at Hari Singh High Street was damaged and in the same year Arya Samaj Temple of Wazir Bagh, Srinagar was burnt. From 1986 the law and order situation in the valley deteriorated day by day and temple desecration became order of the day. On Tue, Sep 2, 2008 at 7:17 PM, Shivam Vij शिवम् विज् wrote: > Rage in Kashmir meets India's brute force > > http://in.reuters.com/article/topNews/idINIndia-35279820080902 > > By Alistair Scrutton > > SRINAGAR, India (Reuters) - The world's largest democracy locks up > protest leaders without charge, shoots dozens of demonstrators dead, > beats and intimidates ordinary citizens and raids homes without > warrants. > > Welcome to Indian Kashmir, where the biggest separatist protests in > two decades have clashed with the might of the state. > > "They are ruthless, trigger happy," said Ghulam Rasool Bhat, a > labourer who says he was beaten by federal police after he tried to > buy milk for his two nephews under a curfew in Srinagar, the summer > capital of Indian Kashmir. > > He lay in a bed, both legs bandaged where a soldier, shouting "Get > your milk from Pakistan" had smashed a rifle into his shins. His legs > felt, he said, as if in a continuous cramp. > > Police have shot dead at least 35 Muslim protesters in the > Muslim-majority Kashmir Valley after a row over land for a Hindu > shrine spiralled into marches and strikes against Indian rule. > > More than 1,000 people have been wounded in clashes over three weeks, > hospital officials and police say, with the Kashmir Valley often under > curfew. Hundreds of people have suffered police baton beatings and > bullet wounds, doctors say. > > The Indian government says its security forces have been fired upon by > protesters on several occasions, and said authorities had "acted > within the law and with restraint". > > Witnesses said some protesters had thrown stones at police, but said > that most were marching peacefully. India's hardline response to the > protests has highlighted what critics say is its lack of strategy to > find a solution to a problem that has already sparked two wars between > India and Pakistan, who both claim the region in full but rule it in > parts. > > The crackdown may also be counter-productive. Residents say the deaths > and violent crackdown have fuelled anger against India and boosted the > separatist cause after years of relative peace. > > "The government of India does not have a strategy," said Siddharth > Varadarajan, diplomatic editor of The Hindu newspaper. > > "It is relying heavily on coercion, arresting top and middle-level > leaders in the hope it will break the back of unprecedented protests." > > In rare criticism last week, the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights > called on India to avoid using excessive force. It drew a rebuke from > India for interfering in its affairs. > > SIMMERING RESENTMENT > > For decades there has been simmering resentment at the hundreds of > thousands of Indian troops stationed in Kashmir, making it one of the > most militarised regions on earth. > > Roadblocks, verbal abuse from soldiers and raids on homes have long > been a part of daily life. But as protests spiralled in August, the > government sent in battalions of the Central Reserve Police Force > (CRPF), a federal police force of mainly Hindus who do not speak > Kashmiri. Strangers to Kashmir, most residents appear to despise them. > > In interviews in Srinagar and nearby villages, tales were similar: > CRPF beatings, night raids on homes, verbal abuse and smashed windows. > Life has been worse than in previous years. > > "They are not human," said Raja, a villager from Newtheed less than an > hour's drive from the city. She said soldiers smashed up her home, > shouting "We'll show you what freedom is". > > In Srinagar, the CRPF has taken over from the local Kashmiri police to > enforce curfews and riot control. Residents complain of abuse at the > slightest provocation -- selling bread, buying milk. > > One surgeon, who asked to remain anonymous because of fear of > retribution from Indian authorities, said he has received around 400 > wounded people in three weeks, 150 of them hit by bullets. > > "These are target killings. It's simple to see," said the doctor, > explaining that many of the chest wounds were from weapons such as > AK-47s. "Most of these were intended to kill. They were not to > disperse a crowd." > > Shabir Ahmed Dar, 22, lay in one hospital bed after three operations. > He was shot in the abdomen during a protest march to the Pakistani > Kashmir border. > > "There was no warning from the police. They just fired." > > The police firings drew criticism from Human Rights Watch. "To end > this cycle of tragedy, the government should order security forces to > act with restraint," it said in a statement. > > It is not just a hardline response to street protests. Authorities > have detained several separatist leaders without charge. Other > leaders, many committed to democratic change and who publicly reject > militant violence, were in hiding. > > Asiya Andrabi, chief of Kashmir's women's separatist group > Dukhtaran-e-Milat (Daughters of the Muslim Faith) who had led some of > the protests, has been detained under the Public Safety Act that > allows for a year in jail without trial. > > The violence still pales in comparison with previous years when > officials say more than 43,000 people have been killed in clashes > involving Indian troops and Muslim militants since 1989. Human rights > groups put the toll at about 60,000 dead or missing. > > Some analysts say authorities were in a difficult situation. > > "This is a place where security officials are getting attacked every > second day," said Brahma Chellaney, professor of strategic studies at > the New Delhi-based Centre for Policy Research, referring to the years > of militant insurgency. > > For Shameema, a 35-year-old woman who sells bread, the fear of police > was clear. She talked about how police smashed her and her family with > batons for selling bread under curfew. Her husband displayed a wound > to his head. > > She fell silent for a moment as a federal policeman official walked up > to her shop, ominously tapping his baton. Then, realising he could not > speak Kashmiri, she talked again. > > "I am scared," she said "But we have nowhere to go." > > (Additional reporting by Sheikh Mushtaq; Editing by Simon Denyer and > Megan Goldin) > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From indersalim at gmail.com Wed Sep 3 23:00:04 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 23:00:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions In-Reply-To: <319517.61062.qm@web51407.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <47e122a70809030644g483a5b2en985bbcd466c44c9b@mail.gmail.com> <319517.61062.qm@web51407.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70809031030l8c80ad2p2699cebbeb999893@mail.gmail.com> dear yousuf thanks for response. no i dont agree that people are killing each other because Hussain painted this or that, People want to kill people and there is always an excuse available. We will always not blame people for that because people have ceased to be people with their existential choice to be ' being-in-itself'. Prime symbols of our society have perhaps cultivated bad tastes because of a deep bourgiouse-captilist-fascist leanings. We are indeed in a deep mess. For example, Sudhir Kakkar talks about how unresolved sexuality has a deep relationship with violence. Now who is the culprit. At least Artists are trying to heal themselves. let them, even if people are not healed... about what is good to society ? Stalin's USSR did this mistake and killed lot of intellectuals poets and artists, Theortically what, poets are artists were doing at time had little relevance to the times ' of bolshivik ' but in the end we can see how wrong was that policy of actually believing what is good for society and what is not. We need to provide a space to everything for everybody. People like TV reality and other such heaps of trash....., how much we can carry is seriously with us, you know better, at least i cant take the popular bullshit of saas Bahu and bootnath serials. About market and art via ' conspiracy of art' we already know Hussain sahib is not in a great spiritual health. But a fanatic has no right to dislodge something which is already dislodged by the Tusnami of sheer profitalbity of americansim.. love is On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 8:34 PM, Yousuf wrote: > Dear Salim > You are right, an artist should never have to explain. But Picasso probably never had people killing each others angered by his paintings. But (as we have discussed earlier on this theme) if you are doing an art for public, would you not be concerned if the public appreciates it? No one is born appreciating high art - we acquire a tastes for everything. The point is, whose responsibity is it to inculcate the appreciation of art in society? If its a Madhubani painting done on the facade of my village house by my mother, its very much there in my genes. But if it is a horse by Hussain kept in a gallery to which I have no access, somebody has to do a bit of explaining on why such art is distanced from social reality (which actually is not, but the market has made it look so). > > Yousuf > > > --- On Wed, 9/3/08, inder salim wrote: > >> From: inder salim >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions >> To: reader-list at sarai.net >> Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 7:14 PM >> Picasso said, if it is possible to explian, it is futile to >> paint. >> >> even if i we gnore picasso, who is an old hat in modern art >> now, let >> alone hussain sahib who is immensely supported by >> investors, and 'post >> colonialism' as theoritical justificaioin to do >> whatever he or we >> sometimes are doing which can pass as derivate at the >> best. >> >> what is education or what is not , what is offensive or >> what is not, >> is difficult to explain, if one chases the text, and its >> meaning >> profoundly... >> >> what we forget also is the fact that what we see are >> phtographs of the >> the original >> >> .and is photogaphy representing real, if so then we have >> truly >> disappeared from the face of this earth. and it does not >> matter if >> there is hussain or not, >> >> there is book by Jean Baudilard ' conspiracy of >> art' >> which speaks the contemporary art practices , and that >> makes us feel >> that the whole world is in fact a piece of modern art work >> , and we >> are not there, simple not part of it. >> >> the question of relevance of hussain in our social >> structures is open >> to this sort of criticism, >> >> but not once it lands as amunition in the hands of >> fanatics. >> >> love >> is >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 7:39 AM, Rahul Asthana >> wrote: >> > >> > OK, I think we are almost on the same page now.If by >> educating you mean explaining;then I agree.Hussein might >> explain why his painting was not meant to >> offend,alternatively he may realize how and to what degree >> its offensive, and he may decide its not worth it.It should >> work both ways. >> > I have no stake in whatever is decided,but as >> Kshmendra has mentioned,the emphasis should be on >> understanding and respecting the other,not educating them. >> > >> > --- On Tue, 9/2/08, Yousuf >> wrote: >> > >> > > From: Yousuf >> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and >> Transgressions >> > > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" >> , rahul_capri at yahoo.com >> > > Cc: "Sarai list" >> >> > > Date: Tuesday, September 2, 2008, 11:03 AM >> > > Dear Rahul >> > > Why are you so scared of the word >> "education", >> > > and why are you seeing it in such limited terms. >> If you look >> > > at my last mail, I agreed that your solution #3 >> is good and >> > > I'd be happy if it works. But I emphasized >> about >> > > dialogue as part of the education. Don't you >> think >> > > dialogue and communication between the two >> conflicting >> > > parties would be an integral part of even your >> solution? >> > > >> > > What would you have to say about a >> counselor/psychiatrist >> > > who tries to resolve conflicts say between two >> spouses. >> > > His/her main role is to (a) know each side's >> story, and >> > > then (b) inform each spouse about the other's >> problem >> > > which was actually missing between them due to >> long gaps of >> > > non-communication. Most conflicts in the family >> or society >> > > occur because of the distance we create between >> two parties >> > > - we fear each other, imagine all sorts of >> strange notions >> > > about each other and strengthenthe hatred about >> each other. >> > > If only we talked, we could have realized that >> much of our >> > > fears were baseless. >> > > >> > > Hence I am simply talking about creating bridges >> between >> > > two parties through communication. Why can't >> we for >> > > instance have a meeting/workshop between Hussain >> and the >> > > religious fanatics where they tell each >> other's story >> > > and try to explain why each party needs to be >> sensitive to >> > > others' feelings. I know this will not >> entirely remove >> > > either party's deep prejudices, and may lead >> to further >> > > flaring up, but some moderation may also happen. >> But I would >> > > again emphasize that those thoughts and ideas of >> both sides >> > > which are required for the dialogue should at >> least be >> > > available for everyone to see and understand. For >> instance, >> > > we only get to see a lot of hate-propaganda from >> the >> > > religious fanatics against the artist, but never >> see any >> > > effort from Hussain or the art fraternity to >> explain what >> > > this art is all about, and why he makes what he >> makes. The >> > > artist thinks that he/she doesn't need to >> explain >> > > anything. >> > > >> > > I am sorry, but I don't follow terms like >> reductionism, >> > > teleology, deontology, so maybe I am sounding a >> bit rigid to >> > > you. >> > > >> > > Yousuf >> > > >> > > --- On Tue, 9/2/08, Rahul Asthana >> > > wrote: >> > > >> > > > From: Rahul Asthana >> >> > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and >> > > Transgressions >> > > > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" >> > > , ysaeed7 at yahoo.com >> > > > Cc: "Sarai list" >> > > >> > > > Date: Tuesday, September 2, 2008, 2:01 AM >> > > > Dear Yousuf, >> > > > Your argument is what I call reductionist >> (from >> > > > dictionary.com=2.the practice of simplifying >> a complex >> > > idea, >> > > > issue, condition, or the like, esp. to the >> point of >> > > > minimizing, obscuring, or distorting it.). >> > > > When you talk about "millions of issues >> in our >> > > society >> > > > which people used to take with orthodox >> > > attitude",you >> > > > are basically creating a straw man.Many >> orthodox >> > > practices >> > > > have to be given up;we have no difference on >> that. >> > > > When two deontologies collide,we have to >> present a >> > > > teleological argument in favor of one or the >> other.In >> > > other >> > > > words,when two value frameworks reach >> conflicting >> > > position >> > > > on an issue,we have two ways we can approach >> the >> > > > conflict.The one who favors one value >> framework should >> > > > present a comparison of the two frameworks >> in terms of >> > > > social cost-benefit,or,The one who favors >> one value >> > > > framework tries to educate the other one to >> their >> > > system >> > > > just because its "better".Do you >> see the >> > > > difference between the two? >> > > > Now, in an engagement of two groups on >> perceived >> > > social >> > > > cost-benefit,there will be conflicts.Its >> hard to >> > > imagine how >> > > > two groups will have same perception of >> social >> > > > cost-benefit.But at least we would be trying >> to >> > > resolve >> > > > issues within a teleological framework which >> is a lot >> > > better >> > > > than "my way is better than your way >> and you have >> > > to be >> > > > educated to my way". >> > > > >> > > > Regards >> > > > Rahul >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > gate social cost-benefit,and not on the >> basis of what >> > > one >> > > > group thinks is right. >> > > > >> > > > --- On Mon, 9/1/08, Yousuf >> >> > > wrote: >> > > > >> > > > > From: Yousuf >> > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life >> and >> > > > Transgressions >> > > > > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" >> > > > , >> rahul_capri at yahoo.com >> > > > > Cc: "Sarai list" >> > > > >> > > > > Date: Monday, September 1, 2008, 9:12 >> AM >> > > > > Dear Rahul >> > > > > I understand your logic, but I think >> your >> > > alternative >> > > > no.3 >> > > > > is too idealized and utopian to >> achieve, although >> > > I >> > > > would >> > > > > love if it works. Also, it may apply >> only to some >> > > > > situations, not all. For instance, if a >> group of >> > > > people >> > > > > thinks that women are inferior and >> should remain >> > > > inside >> > > > > homes, or that we should ruin the >> environment by >> > > > cutting >> > > > > trees, wasting water and fuel, would >> you allow >> > > them to >> > > > > believe and act on this? You may call >> it my >> > > > condescending >> > > > > attitude, but why is it that we have >> managed to >> > > bring >> > > > an >> > > > > awareness and "reform" today >> about so >> > > many >> > > > > millions of issues in our society which >> people >> > > used to >> > > > take >> > > > > with orthodox attitude. I am talking >> about gender >> > > > equality, >> > > > > environment, education, health issues >> (although >> > > it is >> > > > still >> > > > > not enough). Nobody is born with >> politically >> > > correct >> > > > genes - >> > > > > we all acquire things as we grow. So >> what's >> > > the >> > > > big deal >> > > > > for instance about having arts >> appreciation as >> > > part of >> > > > the >> > > > > school curriculum or TV programmes. >> Should we >> > > allow >> > > > our >> > > > > mainstream media to remain >> condescending then? >> > > Why is >> > > > > television changing the attitude of >> people - why >> > > is >> > > > our >> > > > > society becoming more consumerist and >> aggressive >> > > and >> > > > > prejudiced? >> > > > > Look my condescending solution >> doesn't >> > > involve >> > > > simply >> > > > > education - I am talking about dialogue >> and >> > > awareness, >> > > > and >> > > > > not talking down somebody's throat >> which the >> > > TV >> > > > does >> > > > > today. >> > > > > >> > > > > Yousuf >> > > > > >> > > > > --- On Sun, 8/31/08, Rahul Asthana >> > > > > wrote: >> > > > > >> > > > > > From: Rahul Asthana >> > > >> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of >> Life and >> > > > > Transgressions >> > > > > > To: "Shuddhabrata >> Sengupta" >> > > > > , >> ysaeed7 at yahoo.com >> > > > > > Cc: "Sarai list" >> > > > > >> > > > > > Date: Sunday, August 31, 2008, >> 11:54 PM >> > > > > > Yousuf, >> > > > > > >> > > > > > I think i failed in getting my >> point >> > > across.No >> > > > amount >> > > > > of >> > > > > > "education" would make >> > > Hussein's >> > > > art >> > > > > > appreciated by some,and those who >> are >> > > offended by >> > > > > > Hussein's art are no less >> > > > "educated" >> > > > > than you >> > > > > > or me. >> > > > > > Unless you get rid of your >> condescension >> > > about >> > > > > educating >> > > > > > people about what they should or >> > > shouldn't >> > > > get >> > > > > offended >> > > > > > by,any discussion about solution >> to >> > > conflicts >> > > > like >> > > > > this is a >> > > > > > non-starter. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > I am going to make one last try >> though. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Say there are two groups A and >> B,with >> > > different >> > > > value >> > > > > > systems.A is offended by an act X >> and B is >> > > > > not,apparently >> > > > > > due to their different value >> systems. B >> > > > encourages X >> > > > > and >> > > > > > this increases tensions in a >> society where A >> > > and >> > > > B >> > > > > live >> > > > > > together.Lets see what are the >> possible >> > > > solutions. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > 1.Both A and B tell each other to >> go take a >> > > hike >> > > > and >> > > > > they >> > > > > > would do according to how they >> feel fit. >> > > > > > 2.Both A and B are sure that their >> value >> > > systems >> > > > are >> > > > > > superior and they try to convert >> each other >> > > to >> > > > their >> > > > > own >> > > > > > view points through dialog etc. >> > > > > > 3.Both A and B recognize that >> there are >> > > > irreconcilable >> > > > > > differences in their world >> views.They also >> > > > recognize >> > > > > that >> > > > > > they would respect the differences >> and try >> > > to >> > > > honor >> > > > > them to >> > > > > > the extent possible while also >> trying to >> > > achieve >> > > > their >> > > > > own >> > > > > > goals through whatever means >> possible. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > If liberal fanatics like you will >> keep on >> > > > engaging in >> > > > > > #2,(which in my opinion is even >> worse than >> > > #1 >> > > > because >> > > > > #1 >> > > > > > does not involve condescension) >> that you are >> > > > doing >> > > > > right >> > > > > > now,you will always enable >> religious >> > > fanatics >> > > > from the >> > > > > other >> > > > > > side who will try to convert you >> to their >> > > view >> > > > > point.Why is >> > > > > > their stand less valid than yours? >> > > > > > If you engage in #3 ,you will >> enable >> > > moderates >> > > > from >> > > > > the >> > > > > > other side who will listen to you >> if you >> > > listen >> > > > to >> > > > > them. >> > > > > > The big leap of understanding that >> you need >> > > to >> > > > make is >> > > > > that >> > > > > > there can be two internally >> consistent value >> > > > systems >> > > > > which >> > > > > > will lead to opposing positions on >> many >> > > > issues,and >> > > > > both >> > > > > > these value systems are equally >> valid. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Regards >> > > > > > Rahul >> > > > > > >> > > > > > --- On Sun, 8/31/08, Yousuf >> > > > >> > > > > > wrote: >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > From: Yousuf >> >> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] >> Ways of Life >> > > and >> > > > > > Transgressions >> > > > > > > To: "Shuddhabrata >> Sengupta" >> > > > > > , >> > > rahul_capri at yahoo.com >> > > > > > > Cc: "Sarai list" >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Date: Sunday, August 31, >> 2008, 9:40 AM >> > > > > > > When I mention education, I >> primarily >> > > > include >> > > > > media in >> > > > > > it. >> > > > > > > But the media is careless and >> works >> > > only on >> > > > the >> > > > > > diktats of >> > > > > > > industry and politicians. So >> the prime >> > > > > responsibility >> > > > > > (of >> > > > > > > making sure that their art is >> > > appreciated) >> > > > falls >> > > > > on >> > > > > > the arts >> > > > > > > fraternity itself. At least >> until we >> > > find a >> > > > > better >> > > > > > solution. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > --- On Sat, 8/30/08, Rahul >> Asthana >> > > > > > > >> wrote: >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > From: Rahul Asthana >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: >> [Reader-list] Ways of >> > > Life >> > > > and >> > > > > > > Transgressions >> > > > > > > > To: "Shuddhabrata >> > > Sengupta" >> > > > > > > , >> > > ysaeed7 at yahoo.com >> > > > > > > > Cc: "Sarai >> list" >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Date: Saturday, August >> 30, 2008, >> > > 9:58 >> > > > PM >> > > > > > > > "They have not been >> educated >> > > to >> > > > > appreciate >> > > > > > the >> > > > > > > nuances >> > > > > > > > of the medium or the >> > > message." >> > > > > > > > Yousuf, I am sorry but >> that's >> > > > > > condescending.By the >> > > > > > > same >> > > > > > > > token a religious person >> can say >> > > that >> > > > the >> > > > > artist >> > > > > > has >> > > > > > > not >> > > > > > > > been taught the nuances >> of >> > > religious >> > > > > > sensibilities.My >> > > > > > > point >> > > > > > > > is that if two groups >> having >> > > different >> > > > > values >> > > > > > have to >> > > > > > > > coexist in a >> society,they have to >> > > be >> > > > > tolerant >> > > > > > towards >> > > > > > > each >> > > > > > > > other. >> > > > > > > > I do not advocate any >> limit to the >> > > > freedom >> > > > > of >> > > > > > > > expression,but there >> should not be >> > > > complete >> > > > > > > callousness >> > > > > > > > towards the feelings of >> > > groups.Painters >> > > > like >> > > > > > Hussein >> > > > > > > and >> > > > > > > > other heretics would >> always keep >> > > > producing >> > > > > works >> > > > > > that >> > > > > > > would >> > > > > > > > offend,and perhaps thats >> necessary >> > > > too;but >> > > > > if >> > > > > > some of >> > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > people in the media,and >> I do not >> > > mean >> > > > the >> > > > > media >> > > > > > which >> > > > > > > > actually represents >> these groups, >> > > can >> > > > > understand >> > > > > > and >> > > > > > > voice >> > > > > > > > their feelings,then >> emotions would >> > > > probably >> > > > > not >> > > > > > flare >> > > > > > > up to >> > > > > > > > that extent. >> > > > > > > > That is the middle way. >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 8/30/08, >> Yousuf >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > wrote: >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > From: Yousuf >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: >> [Reader-list] >> > > Ways of >> > > > Life >> > > > > and >> > > > > > > > Transgressions >> > > > > > > > > To: >> "Shuddhabrata >> > > > Sengupta" >> > > > > > > > >> , >> > > > > rahul_capri at yahoo.com >> > > > > > > > > Cc: "Sarai >> list" >> > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > Date: Saturday, >> August 30, >> > > 2008, >> > > > 9:31 >> > > > > PM >> > > > > > > > > Dear Rahul >> > > > > > > > > I had difficulty >> following >> > > your >> > > > first >> > > > > > sentence >> > > > > > > (and a >> > > > > > > > few >> > > > > > > > > others), but yes, >> to put it >> > > in >> > > > simple >> > > > > > language, >> > > > > > > people >> > > > > > > > have >> > > > > > > > > been offended by >> > > Hussain's >> > > > > paintings, >> > > > > > and >> > > > > > > they are >> > > > > > > > not >> > > > > > > > > always at fault. >> They have >> > > not >> > > > been >> > > > > educated >> > > > > > to >> > > > > > > > appreciate >> > > > > > > > > the nuances of the >> medium or >> > > the >> > > > > message. >> > > > > > And the >> > > > > > > art >> > > > > > > > > fraternity >> doesn't have >> > > the >> > > > urge to >> > > > > go >> > > > > > to the >> > > > > > > > people and >> > > > > > > > > explain what they >> do and why >> > > they >> > > > do. >> > > > > The >> > > > > > > politician >> > > > > > > > of >> > > > > > > > > course is too happy >> to cash >> > > in on >> > > > the >> > > > > > ignorance >> > > > > > > of the >> > > > > > > > > public. >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Incidentally, >> countless >> > > > > > provocative/blasphemous >> > > > > > > art or >> > > > > > > > > statements have >> been made in >> > > the >> > > > past >> > > > > but >> > > > > > not all >> > > > > > > of >> > > > > > > > them >> > > > > > > > > led to a public >> outcry. >> > > Almost all >> > > > > known >> > > > > > cases >> > > > > > > where a >> > > > > > > > piece >> > > > > > > > > of art/literature >> has led to >> > > > violence, >> > > > > are >> > > > > > those >> > > > > > > where >> > > > > > > > > somebody (or some >> political >> > > party) >> > > > used >> > > > > them >> > > > > > to >> > > > > > > spread >> > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > flames. In most >> cases, the >> > > > protesters >> > > > > > haven't >> > > > > > > seen >> > > > > > > > or >> > > > > > > > > read what they have >> been >> > > > protesting >> > > > > against. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > So, should the >> artists make >> > > such >> > > >> provocative >> > > > > > > works >> > > > > > > > only for >> > > > > > > > > themselves or their >> closest >> > > > friends, >> > > > > and >> > > > > > never >> > > > > > > allow >> > > > > > > > them to >> > > > > > > > > go public. Or >> should they >> > > (and >> > > > their >> > > > > > > institutions) >> > > > > > > > create an >> > > > > > > > > atmosphere of >> awareness where >>> > the >> > > > > public can >> > > > > > > > appreciate >> > > > > > > > > their art and not >> tear it >> > > apart? I >> > > > > don't >> > > > > > find >> > > > > > > a >> > > > > > > > third >> > > > > > > > > alternative. >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Yousuf >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, >> 8/30/08, Rahul >> > > Asthana >> > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > wrote: >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > From: Rahul >> Asthana >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: >> > > [Reader-list] >> > > > Ways of >> > > > > Life >> > > > > > and >> > > > > > > > > Transgressions >> > > > > > > > > > To: >> ysaeed7 at yahoo.com, >> > > > > > "Shuddhabrata >> > > > > > > > > Sengupta" >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Cc: >> "Sarai >> > > list" >> > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > Date: >> Saturday, August >> > > 30, >> > > > 2008, >> > > > > 8:42 >> > > > > > PM >> > > > > > > > > > Dear Yousuf, >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > I think the >> classic >> > > liberal >> > > > stand >> > > > > of >> > > > > > > reductionist >> > > > > > > > > > >> extrapolation,in which >> > > one >> > > > > develops >> > > > > > certain >> > > > > > > set >> > > > > > > > of >> > > > > > > > > canonical >> > > > > > > > > > principles and >> expects >> > > them >> > > > to >> > > > > govern >> > > > > > all >> > > > > > > > discourse on >> > > > > > > > > a >> > > > > > > > > > certain topic, >> is not >> > > > necessarily >> > > > > > > philosophically >> > > > > > > > > incorrect >> > > > > > > > > > from their >> point of >> > > view,but >> > > > > > insufficient >> > > > > > > and >> > > > > > > > improper >> > > > > > > > > if we >> > > > > > > > > > want to live >> in a >> > > tolerant >> > > > liberal >> > > > > > society.I >> > > > > > > will >> > > > > > > > try >> > > > > > > > > to >> > > > > > > > > > elaborate: >> > > > > > > > > > The point is >> not that >> > > Hussein >> > > > as a >> > > > > > Muslim >> > > > > > > can >> > > > > > > > paint >> > > > > > > > > Hindu >> > > > > > > > > > deities,nude >> or >> > > otherwise or >> > > > > whether >> > > > > > his >> > > > > > > > intention was >> > > > > > > > > to >> > > > > > > > > > insult,or >> not.The point >> > > is >> > > > also >> > > > > not >> > > > > > that the >> > > > > > > his >> > > > > > > > > paintings >> > > > > > > > > > can be >> artistic and >> > > break new >> > > > > grounds >> > > > > > of >> > > > > > > > expression >> > > > > > > > > > etc.Neither is >> it the >> > > point >> > > > that >> > > > > he >> > > > > > should >> > > > > > > have >> > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > freedom >> > > > > > > > > > of expression >> to paint >> > > > whatever he >> > > > > > wants.The >> > > > > > > > point is >> > > > > > > > > also >> > > > > > > > > > not that the >> people who >> > > > attacked >> > > > > him >> > > > > > were >> > > > > > > wrong. >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > The point that >> I have >> > > been >> > > > trying >> > > > > to >> > > > > > make is >> > > > > > > that >> > > > > > > > all >> > > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > above things >> are >> > > true;but >> > > > still a >> > > > > > painting >> > > > > > > that >> > > > > > > > he has >> > > > > > > > > made >> > > > > > > > > > can be >> offensive to many >> > > > > people.Now,the >> > > > > > > classic >> > > > > > > > > reductionist >> > > > > > > > > > line here is >> > > that,offense is >> > > > > > > > subjective.Obviously,we >> > > > > > > > > > can't be >> bothered >> > > about >> > > > every >> > > > > > person who >> > > > > > > > takes >> > > > > > > > > offense >> > > > > > > > > > at any random >> stuff, can >> > > > we?To >> > > > > that I >> > > > > > would >> > > > > > > say, >> > > > > > > > using >> > > > > > > > > our >> > > > > > > > > > own personal >> > > > judgment,depending >> > > > > upon >> > > > > > our >> > > > > > > > interactions >> > > > > > > > > with >> > > > > > > > > > people, we can >> make out >> > > most >> > > > of >> > > > > the >> > > > > > times >> > > > > > > if >> > > > > > > > > something is >> > > > > > > > > > truly >> offensive to a >> > > large >> > > > group >> > > > > of >> > > > > > people >> > > > > > > or >> > > > > > > > not.If >> > > > > > > > > we >> > > > > > > > > > can't,we >> should talk >> > > to >> > > > > > people.IMHO,I >> > > > > > > > don't >> > > > > > > > > think I >> > > > > > > > > > should take >> the easy way >> > > out >> > > > of >> > > > > hiding >> > > > > > > behind the >> > > > > > > > > principles >> > > > > > > > > > of freedom of >> expression >> > > and >> > > > > visual >> > > > > > > metaphors >> > > > > > > > etc.We >> > > > > > > > > should >> > > > > > > > > > always support >> freedom >> > > of >> > > > > > expression,but if >> > > > > > > we >> > > > > > > > can >> > > > > > > > > surmise >> > > > > > > > > > that a >> particular act of >> > > art >> > > > was >> > > > > > done,when >> > > > > > > it was >> > > > > > > > > probably >> > > > > > > > > > apparent that >> it would >> > > hurt >> > > > the >> > > > > > > sensibilities of >> > > > > > > > a >> > > > > > > > > large >> > > > > > > > > > group of >> people,we >> > > should >> > > > call it >> > > > > for >> > > > > > > "bad >> > > > > > > > > taste". >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > If we have >> respect for >> > > and >> > > > engage >> > > > > in >> > > > > > dialog >> > > > > > > with >> > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > moderates of >> groups we >> > > may >> > > > not >> > > > > have to >> > > > > > deal >> > > > > > > with >> > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > extremists. >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Dear Shuddha, >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > I think you >> mentioned >> > > earlier >> > > > how >> > > > > > religious >> > > > > > > > people >> > > > > > > > > offend >> > > > > > > > > > the >> sensitivities of >> > > > > atheists.Could you >> > > > > > > please >> > > > > > > > > elaborate? >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Thanks >> > > > > > > > > > Rahul >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, >> 8/30/08, >> > > > Shuddhabrata >> > > > > > Sengupta >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > wrote: >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > From: >> Shuddhabrata >> > > > Sengupta >> > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > Subject: >> Re: >> > > > [Reader-list] >> > > > > Ways of >> > > > > > Life >> > > > > > > and >> > > > > > > > > > Transgressions >> > > > > > > > > > > To: >> > > ysaeed7 at yahoo.com >> > > > > > > > > > > Cc: >> "Sarai >> > > > list" >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > Date: >> Saturday, >> > > August >> > > > 30, >> > > > > 2008, >> > > > > > 2:44 >> > > > > > > AM >> > > > > > > > > > > Dear >> Yousuf, dear >> > > all, >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > thank you >> very >> > > much, >> > > > Yousuf >> > > > > for >> > > > > > your >> > > > > > > mail. I >> > > > > > > > > really >> > > > > > > > > > > >> appreciate your >> > > > > > > > > > > point of >> drawing >> > > > attention to >> > > > > the >> > > > > > > available >> > > > > > > > > > vocabularies >> of >> > > > > > > > > > > visual >> > > > > > > > > > > >> representation and >> > > the >> > > > way in >> > > > > > which >> > > > > > > they >> > > > > > > > > determine or >> > > > > > > > > > > influence >> the >> > > > > > > > > > > universe >> of visual >> > > > > > repsesentatiation, >> > > > > > > if >> > > > > > > > only to >> > > > > > > > > > underline >> > > > > > > > > > > the fact >> > > > > > > > > > > that no >> visual >> > > artist is >> > > > ever >> > > > > > divorced >> > > > > > > from >> > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > context tat >> > > > > > > > > > > they are >> > > > > > > > > > > born >> into. I have >> > > > nowhere >> > > > > written >> > > > > > > about why >> > > > > > > > > Husain >> > > > > > > > > > does >> > > > > > > > > > > not >> choose >> > > > > > > > > > > to >> represent themes >> > > from >> > > > the >> > > > > > Islamic >> > > > > > > canon, >> > > > > > > > and I >> > > > > > > > > > totally >> > > > > > > > > > > agree >> with >> > > > > > > > > > > you that >> he does >> > > not do >> > > > so >> > > > > because >> > > > > > they >> > > > > > > are >> > > > > > > > not >> > > > > > > > > > available >> > > > > > > > > > > to him in >> > > > > > > > > > > his >> cultural miieu, >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > As for >> apparently >> > > > > transgressive >> > > > > > cases >> > > > > > > like >> > > > > > > > > Husain or >> > > > > > > > > > Dillu >> > > > > > > > > > > Ram >> > > > > > > > > > > Kausari, >> I cannnot >> > > see >> > > > why >> > > > > they >> > > > > > should >> > > > > > > not b >> > > > > > > > > > celebrated. >> > > > > > > > > > > Hindus >> > > > > > > > > > > should >> honour >> > > Husain and >> > > > > Muslims >> > > > > > should >> > > > > > > > honour >> > > > > > > > > Dillu >> > > > > > > > > > Ram. >> > > > > > > > > > > In this >> way >> > > > > > > > > > > they >> would ensure >> > > that >> > > > acts >> > > > > of >> > > > > > > 'road >> > > > > > > > > crossing' >> > > > > > > > > > need >> > > > > > > > > > > not >> necessarily >> > > > > > > > > > > end in >> lethal >> > > accidents, >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > warm >> regards, and >> > > hoping >> > > > for >> > > > > many >> > > > > > more >> > > > > > > road >> > > > > > > > > crossings, >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > Shuddha >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > On >> 29-Aug-08, at >> > > 8:25 >> > > > PM, >> > > > > Yousuf >> > > > > > Saeed >> > > > > > > > wrote: >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > Dear >> Shuddha, >> > > > others >> > > > > > > > > > > > I >> really >> > > appreciate >> > > > your >> > > > > > > highlighting >> > > > > > > > of the >> > > > > > > > > fact >> > > > > > > > > > that >> > > > > > > > > > > >> Hussain's >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> intention may >> > > not >> > > > be of >> > > > > > insulting >> > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > Hindus >> > > > > > > > > by >> > > > > > > > > > > drawing >> the deities >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > in >> the nude or >> > > > > otherwise. I >> > > > > > am not >> > > > > > > a >> > > > > > > > > defender of >> > > > > > > > > > > Hussain, >> but would >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > like >> to put >> > > across >> > > > a few >> > > > > > points. >> > > > > > > Many >> > > > > > > > people >> > > > > > > > > (on >> > > > > > > > > > this >> > > > > > > > > > > list and >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> elsewhere) >> > > have >> > > > pointed >> > > > > out >> > > > > > that >> > > > > > > > Hussain >> > > > > > > > > never >> > > > > > > > > > drew >> > > > > > > > > > > any >> Muslim >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> character >> > > (such as >> > > > the >> > > > > > Prophet) in >> > > > > > > this >> > > > > > > > > manner, >> > > > > > > > > > and >> > > > > > > > > > > therefore >> his >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> intention must >> > > be >> > > > to >> > > > > insult >> > > > > > the >> > > > > > > Hindus. >> > > > > > > > They >> > > > > > > > > also >> > > > > > > > > > say >> > > > > > > > > > > that such >> an >> > > > > > > > > > > > act >> by any >> > > artist >> > > > in a >> > > > > Muslim >> > > > > > > country >> > > > > > > > (like >> > > > > > > > > Saudi >> > > > > > > > > > > Arabia) >> would >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> result in >> > > death >> > > > penalty, >> > > > > and >> > > > > > so >> > > > > > > on. But >> > > > > > > > > maybe >> > > > > > > > > > Hussain >> > > > > > > > > > > did not >> draw >> > > > > > > > > > > > an >> Islamic >> > > > character in >> > > > > an >> > > > > > > > > >> "immodest" >> > > > > > > > > > > posture >> simply >> > > because >> > > > such >> > > > > > > > > > > > an >> image or >> > > icon >> > > > > doesn't >> > > > > > exist >> > > > > > > in the >> > > > > > > > > > Islam's >> > > > > > > > > > > visual >> cultural >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> tradition. If >> > > he >> > > > does >> > > > > it, >> > > > > > then >> > > > > > > that >> > > > > > > > would be >> > > > > > > > > > > >> deliberately >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> provocative >> > > > (although I >> > > > > am >> > > > > > not >> > > > > > > saying >> > > > > > > > it >> > > > > > > > > > shouldn't >> > > > > > > > > > > be done). >> But he >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> could draw a >> > > Hindu >> > > > deity >> > > > > in >> > > > > > the >> > > > > > > nude >> > > > > > > > because >> > > > > > > > > such >> > > > > > > > > > a >> > > > > > > > > > > tradition >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> exists in our >> > > > Indian >> > > > > visual >> > > > > > > culture. I >> > > > > > > > doubt >> > > > > > > > > if >> > > > > > > > > > he >> > > > > > > > > > > avoids >> > > > > > > > > > > > the >> depiction >> > > of >> > > > Muslim >> > > > > > themes >> > > > > > > because >> > > > > > > > he >> > > > > > > > > is >> > > > > > > > > > scared >> > > > > > > > > > > of the >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Islamists. >> > > Maybe he >> > > > > simply >> > > > > > > can't >> > > > > > > > relate >> > > > > > > > > to it >> > > > > > > > > > as >> > > > > > > > > > > an >> Indian. >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > If I >> as an >> > > artist >> > > > cannot >> > > > > > express >> > > > > > > my >> > > > > > > > certain >> > > > > > > > > > feelings >> > > > > > > > > > > in the >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> language that >> > > has >> > > > been >> > > > > taught >> > > > > > to >> > > > > > > be me >> > > > > > > > by my >> > > > > > > > > > parents, >> > > > > > > > > > > and I >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> suddenly >> > > discover a >> > > > new >> > > > > > language >> > > > > > > that >> > > > > > > > allows >> > > > > > > > > me >> > > > > > > > > > to >> > > > > > > > > > > express >> that >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> peculiar >> > > feeling in >> > > > a >> > > > > much >> > > > > > better >> > > > > > > way >> > > > > > > > than >> > > > > > > > > what >> > > > > > > > > > my >> > > > > > > > > > > mother >> tongue >> > > > > > > > > > > > did, >> I would >> > > be >> > > > happy to >> > > > > use >> > > > > > the >> > > > > > > new >> > > > > > > > > language. >> > > > > > > > > > There >> > > > > > > > > > > are >> thousands >> > > > > > > > > > > > of >> poets and >> > > > artists who >> > > > > > found a >> > > > > > > new >> > > > > > > > way of >> > > > > > > > > > expression >> > > > > > > > > > > in a >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> language which >> > > > every one >> > > > > in >> > > > > > their >> > > > > > > midst >> > > > > > > > had >> > > > > > > > > found >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > "inferior" – >> > > > I am >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> talking for >> > > example >> > > > of >> > > > > the >> > > > > > > tradition of >> > > > > > > > > Persian >> > > > > > > > > > poets >> > > > > > > > > > > of South >> Asia >> > > > > > > > > > > > who >> also wrote >> > > > verses in >> > > > > > Hindi or >> > > > > > > > Hinduvi. >> > > > > > > > > While >> > > > > > > > > > poets >> > > > > > > > > > > such as >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Masud Sa'd >> > > > Salman, >> > > > > Amir >> > > > > > > Khusrau, >> > > > > > > > > Abdurrahim >> > > > > > > > > > > >> Khane-khana, >> > > Ghalib, or >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Iqbal became >> > > famous >> > > > for >> > > > > their >> > > > > > > exquisite >> > > > > > > > > verse in >> > > > > > > > > > > Persian, >> their >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> heart pours >> > > out >> > > > better >> > > > > in >> > > > > > their >> > > > > > > > Hinduvi, >> > > > > > > > > Urdu or >> > > > > > > > > > Braj >> > > > > > > > > > > poetry >> where >> > > > > > > > > > > > they >> can come >> > > down >> > > > to >> > > > > the >> > > > > > earth >> > > > > > > from >> > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > lofty >> > > > > > > > > > royal >> > > > > > > > > > > palaces. >> We >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> often say, >> > > > "Unki >> > > > > Hindi >> > > > > > > shayeri >> > > > > > > > mein >> > > > > > > > > mitti ki >> > > > > > > > > > > khushbu >> aati >> > > hai" >> > > > (one >> > > > > > > > > > > > can >> smell the >> > > earth >> > > > in >> > > > > their >> > > > > > > vernacular >> > > > > > > > > poetry). >> > > > > > > > > > And I >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> think Hussain >> > > is >> > > > no >> > > > > > different >> > > > > > > from >> > > > > > > > them. He >> > > > > > > > > > cannot >> > > > > > > > > > > draw an >> Islamic >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> character in >> > > the >> > > > nude >> > > > > because >> > > > > > > it's >> > > > > > > > > probably >> > > > > > > > > > not in >> > > > > > > > > > > his >> palette, or >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> doesn't >> > > touch >> > > > his >> > > > > heart. >> > > > > > (And >> > > > > > > we >> > > > > > > > cannot >> > > > > > > > > force >> > > > > > > > > > him >> > > > > > > > > > > to do it >> to >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> become more >> > > > politically >> > > > > > correct). >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > You >> may say >> > > that a >> > > > lot >> > > > > of >> > > > > > > > semi-pornographic >> > > > > > > > > > scenes >> > > > > > > > > > > have been >> drawn >> > > > > > > > > > > > in >> Mughal or >> > > > Persian >> > > > > > miniatures, >> > > > > > > and he >> > > > > > > > > could >> > > > > > > > > > have >> > > > > > > > > > > followed >> that. >> > > > > > > > > > > > But >> that's >> > > not >> > > > the >> > > > > point. >> > > > > > > Hindu >> > > > > > > > deities >> > > > > > > > > are >> > > > > > > > > > > flexible >> enough for >> > > us >> > > > > > > > > > > > to >> turn them >> > > around >> > > > the >> > > > > way >> > > > > > we >> > > > > > > wish, to >> > > > > > > > > express a >> > > > > > > > > > > certain >> feeling >> > > > > > > > > > > > that >> cannot be >> > > > expressed >> > > > > any >> > > > > > other >> > > > > > > way. >> > > > > > > > So >> > > > > > > > > why >> > > > > > > > > > not >> > > > > > > > > > > >> appreciate and >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> celebrate that >> > > > fact. (I >> > > > > know >> > > > > > such >> > > > > > > a >> > > > > > > > > statement >> > > > > > > > > > from me >> > > > > > > > > > > might >> raise >> > > > > > > > > > > > some >> > > eyebrows). I >> > > > maybe >> > > > > a >> > > > > > Muslim >> > > > > > > but I >> > > > > > > > > appreciate >> > > > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > > fact that >> you >> > > > > > > > > > > > can >> literally >> > > play >> > > > with >> > > > > many >> > > > > > Hindu >> > > > > > > > deities. >> > > > > > > > > Just >> > > > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > > other day >> I >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> heard Pandit >> > > Jasraj >> > > > sing >> > > > > a >> > > > > > khayal >> > > > > > > in >> > > > > > > > which >> > > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > lyrics >> > > > > > > > > > > >> repeatedly >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> referred to >> > > Krishna >> > > > as a >> > > > > chor >> > > > > > > (thief). >> > > > > > > > Does >> > > > > > > > > that >> > > > > > > > > > > insult a >> Hindu? Or >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> would it >> > > insult a >> > > > Hindu >> > > > > if >> > > > > > this >> > > > > > > khayal >> > > > > > > > was >> > > > > > > > > sung >> > > > > > > > > > by >> > > > > > > > > > > Ustad >> Amir Khan? >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> (Incidentally, >> > > a >> > > > large >> > > > > number >> > > > > > of >> > > > > > > > traditional >> > > > > > > > > > Hindu >> > > > > > > > > > > >> devotional >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> lyrics sung in >> > > > classical >> > > > > > music >> > > > > > > have >> > > > > > > > reached >> > > > > > > > > us >> > > > > > > > > > via >> > > > > > > > > > > Muslim >> gharana >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> musicians, and >> > > much >> > > > of >> > > > > > devotional >> > > > > > > Hindu >> > > > > > > > > visual >> > > > > > > > > > > mythology >> has come >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > to >> us via >> > > patwa >> > > >artists >> > > > > of >> > > > > > Bengal >> > > > > > > who >> > > > > > > > are >> > > > > > > > > > > > all >> Muslim. >> > > Can >> > > > > M.F.Hussain >> > > > > > be >> > > > > > > > detached >> > > > > > > > > from >> > > > > > > > > > that >> > > > > > > > > > > >> continuity?) >> > > > > > > > > > > > Much >> of the >> > > popular >> > > > > calendar >> > > > > > and >> > > > > > > poster >> > > > > > > > art >> > > > > > > > > of >> > > > > > > > > > 20th >> > > > > > > > > > > century >> showing >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hindu deities >> > > was >> > > > drawn >> > > > > by an >> > > > > > > artist >> > > > > > > > called >> > > > > > > > > Hasan >> > > > > > > > > > Raza >> > > > > > > > > > > Raja of >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Meerut. And >> > > the >> > > > manner >> > > > > in >> > > > > > which >> > > > > > > most >> > > > > > > > Hindu >> > > > > > > > > > deities are >> > > > > > > > > > > >> visualized >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> today comes >> > > from >> > > > the >> > > > > > pioneering >> > > > > > > work of >> > > > > > > > Raja >> > > > > > > > > Ravi >> > > > > > > > > > > Varma who >> was >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> clearly >> > > inspired by >> > > > > western >> > > > > > style >> > > > > > > of >> > > > > > > > art >> > > > > > > > > where >> > > > > > > > > > human >> > > > > > > > > > > models >> were >> > > > > > > > > > > > used >> to >> > > visualize >> > > > the >> > > > > gods >> > > > > > and >> > > > > > > > goddesses. >> > > > > > > > > So, >> > > > > > > > > > does all >> > > > > > > > > > > this >> insult >> > > > > > > > > > > > the >> Hindus? >> > > And >> > > > what is >> > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > >> "original" >> > > > > > > > > > Hindu >> > > > > > > > > > > way of >> imagining >> > > the >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> deities any >> > > way? >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > I >> liked your >> > > > quoting >> > > > > from >> > > > > > Kausari >> > > > > > > who >> > > > > > > > is >> > > > > > > > > among >> > > > > > > > > > many >> > > > > > > > > > > Hindu >> poets who >> > > > > > > > > > > > have >> > > > written/announced >> > > > > their >> > > > > > > emotive >> > > > > > > > > affiliation >> > > > > > > > > > with >> > > > > > > > > > > Prophet >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Mohammad in >> > > the >> > > > same way >> > > > > as >> > > > > > say >> > > > > > > with >> > > > > > > > > Krishna. I >> > > > > > > > > > doubt >> > > > > > > > > > > if such >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> actions in the >> > > past >> > > > may >> > > > > have >> > > > > > met >> > > > > > > with >> > > > > > > > much >> > > > > > > > > > resistance >> > > > > > > > > > > (as you >> have >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> mentioned) – >> > > such >> > > > > examples >> > > > > > were >> > > > > > > a >> > > > > > > > norm. >> > > > > > > > > There >> > > > > > > > > > are >> > > > > > > > > > > many >> Hindu poets >> > > > > > > > > > > > who >> have >> > > written >> > > > > marsiyas >> > > > > > full of >> > > > > > > > pathos for >> > > > > > > > > Imam >> > > > > > > > > > > >> Hussain's >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> martyrdom, and >> > > many >> > > > > Muslim >> > > > > > poets >> > > > > > > who >> > > > > > > > > composed >> > > > > > > > > > adorable >> > > > > > > > > > > songs for >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Krishna. I >> > > > don't >> > > > > think it >> > > > > > was >> > > > > > > too >> > > > > > > > hard >> > > > > > > > > to >> > > > > > > > > > cross >> > > > > > > > > > > the road >> in those >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> days. So, why >> > > are >> > > > we >> > > > > busy >> > > > > > throwing >> > > > > > > > stones >> > > > > > > > > onto >> > > > > > > > > > each >> > > > > > > > > > > other >> from the >> > > > > > > > > > > > two >> sides of a >> > > > road? I >> > > > > could >> > > > > > > imagine >> > > > > > > > that at >> > > > > > > > > > least an >> > > > > > > > > > > online >> forum >> > > > > > > > > > > > like >> Sarai >> > > could >> > > > act >> > > > > like a >> > > > > > subway >> > > > > > > or a >> > > > > > > > > walk-over >> > > > > > > > > > > bridge to >> cross >> > > > > > > > > > > > the >> busy >> > > highway. >> > > > But >> > > > > > currently it >> > > > > > >> seems >> > > > > > > > > more >> > > > > > > > > > like a >> > > > > > > > > > > >> road-block. >> > > > > > > > > > > > And >> we are all >> > > > paying >> > > > > the >> > > > > > toll. >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Yousuf >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > --- >> On Fri, >> > > > 8/29/08, >> > > > > > Shuddhabrata >> > > > > > > > Sengupta >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > wrote: >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> From: >> > > > Shuddhabrata >> > > > > > Sengupta >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Subject: >> > > > > [Reader-list] >> > > > > > Ways of >> > > > > > > Life >> > > > > > > > and >> > > > > > > > > > > >> Transgressions >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> To: >> > > "Sarai >> > > > > > list" >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Date: >> > > Friday, >> > > > August >> > > > > 29, >> > > > > > 2008, >> > > > > > > 1:31 >> > > > > > > > PM >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Dear All, >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> I have >> > > been >> > > > > intrigued by >> > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > exchange on >> > > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > list >> > > > > > > > > > > of late >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> that has >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> preferred >> > > to >> > > > > jettison the >> > > > > > term >> > > > > > > > > > >> 'religion' >> > > > > > > > > > > and >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> prefer in >> > > its >> > > > stead >> > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > euphimistic >> > > > phrase - >> > > > > > 'ways >> > > > > > > of >> > > > > > > > > life'. >> > > > > > > > > > I am >> > > > > > > > > > > referring >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> to the >> > > exchange >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> between >> > > > Chanchal >> > > > > Malviya >> > > > > > and >> > > > > > > > Jeebesh >> > > > > > > > > Bagchi, >> > > > > > > > > > > arising >> out of >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> the >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> heated >> > > > > correspondence on >> > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > disruption >> > > > > > > > > of a >> > > > > > > > > > small >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> exhibition >> > > > devoted >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> to >> > > M.F.Husain. >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> i am quite >> > > > convinced >> > > > > that >> > > > > > the >> > > > > > > term >> > > > > > > > > > > >> 'religion' >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> which >> > > derives >> > > > from >> > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> latin root >> > > of >> > > > the >> > > > > word >> > > > > > religio >> > > > > > > > (bond) >> > > > > > > > > and >> > > > > > > > > > religare >> > > > > > > > > > > (the >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> verb form >> > > of >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> 'to >> > > > bind') >> > > > > > remains for >> > > > > > > me a >> > > > > > > > > useful >> > > > > > > > > > word to >> > > > > > > > > > > name the >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> act of >> > > > committing >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> oneself in >> > > any >> > > > form. >> > > > > In >> > > > > > this >> > > > > > > sense, >> > > > > > > > > atheists >> > > > > > > > > > and >> > > > > > > > > > > agnostics >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> are just >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> as >> > > religious >> > > > (in >> > > > > their >> > > > > > > commitment >> > > > > > > > to >> > > > > > > > > doubt) >> > > > > > > > > > as are >> > > > > > > > > > > those >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> blessed >> > > with >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> faith. I >> > > would >> > > > > describe >> > > > > > my >> > > > > > > > religious >> > > > > > > > > > commitment as >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > agnosticism - a >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> commitment >> > > to >> > > > doubt >> > > > > > > everything, >> > > > > > > > > (including >> > > > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > > value of >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> doubt) and >> > > a >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> certainty >> > > that >> > > > we >> > > > > cannot >> > > > > > speak >> > > > > > > > certainly >> > > > > > > > > of >> > > > > > > > > > > anything >> at >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> all, >> > > because >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> there are >> > > > always >> > > > > > > counterfactuals, >> > > > > > > > and >> > > > > > > > > > hitherto >> > > > > > > > > > > >> unimagined, >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> or unknown >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > possibilities, >> > > > that >> > > > > goad >> > > > > > us on >> > > > > > > to >> > > > > > > > yet >> > > > > > > > > newer >> > > > > > > > > > > >> possibilities, >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> or to >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> return to >> > > some >> > > > very >> > > > > old >> > > > > > ones. >> > > > > > > This >> > > > > > > > is >> > > > > > > > > just to >> > > > > > > > > > say >> > > > > > > > > > > that it >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> would be a >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> mistake to >> > > > assume, >> > > > > as is >> > > > > > often >> > > > > > > done >> > > > > > > > with >> > > > > > > > > some >> > > > > > > > > > > arrogance >> on >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> the part >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> of the >> > > more >> > > > > pronouncedly >> > > > > > > > > 'faithful', >> > > > > > > > > > that >> > > > > > > > > > > atheists >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> and >> > > agnostics >> > > > have >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> no >> > > > > 'spiritual' >> > > > > > quests. >> > > > > > > They >> > > > > > > > do, >> > > > > > > > > and >> > > > > > > > > > they >> > > > > > > > > > > dont, >> just >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> as those >> > > who >> > > > are >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > ostentatiously >> > > > > > > 'religious' >> > > > > > > > do, >> > > > > > > > > and >> > > > > > > > > > dont, >> > > > > > > > > > > or do >> only >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> in as much >> > > as >> > > > it >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> allows >> > > them to >> > > > burn >> > > > > a few >> > > > > > > churches >> > > > > > > > as >> > > > > > > > > they go >> > > > > > > > > > > questing. >> If >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Hindu >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > fundamentalists >> > > > have >> > > > > > chosen to >> > > > > > > > renounce >> > > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > ties >> > > > > > > > > > > that bind >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> (religio) >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> them to >> > > life, >> > > > who >> > > > > would I >> > > > > > be >> > > > > > > to >> > > > > > > > object, >> > > > > > > > > > because, I >> > > > > > > > > > > am not a >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Hindu. >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> But I have >> > > no >> > > > > quarrel >> > > > > > with the >> > > > > > > term >> > > > > > > > > 'ways >> > > > > > > > > > of >> > > > > > > > > > > >> life'. >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> The more >> > > words >> > > > we >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> have, the >> > > > better. >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> This >> > > discussion >> > > > > arose out >> > > > > > of a >> > > > > > > rage >> > > > > > > > felt >> > > > > > > > > by >> > > > > > > > > > some >> > > > > > > > > > > that a >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> group of >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> zealots >> > > had >> > > > broken >> > > > > and >> > > > > > > disrupted an >> > > > > > > > > > exhibition >> > > > > > > > > > > that >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> featured >> > > some >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> images of >> > > and >> > > > by >> > > > > Husain, >> > > > > > and >> > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > counter >> > > > > > > > > rage >> > > > > > > > > > felt >> > > > > > > > > > > by >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> others >> > > that the >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> zealots >> > > had no >> > > > right >> > > > > to >> > > > > > be >> > > > > > > > criticised >> > > > > > > > > because >> > > > > > > > > > they >> > > > > > > > > > > were >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> acting to >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> protect >> > > the >> > > > honour >> > > > > of the >> > > > > > > Hindu >> > > > > > > > deities >> > > > > > > > > that >> > > > > > > > > > they >> > > > > > > > > > > felt >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Husain had >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> insulted. >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> The second >> > > case >> > > > is >> > > > > as >> > > > > > follows >> > > > > > > - >> > > > > > > > what >> > > > > > > > > right >> > > > > > > > > > has >> > > > > > > > > > > Husain, a >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Muslim to >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> insult >> > > Hindu >> > > > deities >> > > > > by >> > > > > > > portraying >> > > > > > > > them >> > > > > > > > > in a >> > > > > > > > > > > manner >> that is >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> offensive >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> to the >> > > > sentiments of >> > > > > many >> > > > > > > Hindus. >> > > > > > > > > > (Husain's >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > motivations, or >> > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> aesthetic >> > > merit >> > > > of >> > > > > his >> > > > > > images >> > > > > > > are >> > > > > > > > not >> > > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > issue >> > > > > > > > > > > here, >> what >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> is at >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> issue is >> > > the >> > > > insult >> > > > > seen >> > > > > > to >> > > > > > > have >> > > > > > > > > occurred >> > > > > > > > > > when a >> > > > > > > > > > > non-Hindu >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > 'touches' >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> a sacred >> > > Hindu >> > > > icon >> > > > > with >> > > > > > his >> > > > > > > > > > >> 'insulting' >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > imagination. >> > > > Those >> > > > > so >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> enraged, >> > > also >> > > > throw >> > > > > the >> > > > > > > following >> > > > > > > > > challenge, >> > > > > > > > > > has >> > > > > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> opposite >> > > ever >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> occurred? >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> I am not >> > > here >> > > > to >> > > > > make a >> > > > > > case >> > > > > > > for >> > > > > > > > Husain. >> > > > > > > > > (As >> > > > > > > > > > I >> > > > > >> > > > > have said >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> before I >> > > do >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> not have a >> > > very >> > > > high >> > > > > > opinion >> > > > > > > of his >> > > > > > > > work >> > > > > > > > > as >> > > > > > > > > > an >> > > > > > > > > > > artist). >> I >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> am here to >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> make a >> > > case for >> > > > what >> > > > > is >> > > > > > > considered >> > > > > > > > to be >> > > > > > > > > > > >> transgression. No >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> one can be >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> sure when >> > > they >> > > > have >> > > > > > > transgressed. >> > > > > > > > > Because >> > > > > > > > > > > >> transgression can >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> be seen >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> to occur >> > > even >> > > > when >> > > > > the >> > > > > > motives >> > > > > > > of >> > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > person >> > > > > > > > > > > concerned >> are >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> far from >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > transgression. >> > > > > Husain can >> > > > > > say >> > > > > > > in >> > > > > > > > his >> > > > > > > > > defence, >> > > > > > > > > > and >> > > > > > > > > > > indeed >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> has on >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> occasion >> > > said >> > > > that >> > > > > his >> > > > > > > paintings >> > > > > > > > are an >> > > > > > > > > index >> > > > > > > > > > of >> > > > > > > > > > > his >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > appreciation of >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Indic >> > > culture >> > > > and >> > > > > its >> > > > > > > diversity of >> > > > > > > > > > expressions, >> of >> > > > > > > > > > > his >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> closeness >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> (since >> > > early >> > > > > childhood) >> > > > > > to >> > > > > > > forms of >> > > > > > > > > iconic >> > > > > > > > > > imagery >> > > > > > > > > > > in >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> popular >> > > > Hinduism. >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Here his >> > > intent >> > > > is >> > > > > > clearly not >> > > > > > > to >> > > > > > > > > insult, on >> > > > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > > contrary, >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> it is to >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> declare >> > > his >> > > > > appreciation >> > > > > > for >> > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > beauty >> > > > > > > > > of >> > > > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > > >> iconography >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> of popular >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Hinduism, >> > > a >> > > > charge >> > > > > for >> > > > > > which >> > > > > > > he >> > > > > > > > would be >> > > > > > > > > > equally >> > > > > > > > > > > hated by >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> both Hindu >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> as well as >> > > > Muslim >> > > > > > > fundamentalists. >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> It has not >> > > been >> > > > > noticed >> > > > > > that >> > > > > > > no >> > > > > > > > Muslim >> > > > > > > > > > > >> fundamentalist or >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> even >> > > Muslim >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> religious >> > > > figure has >> > > > > come >> > > > > > out >> > > > > > > in >> > > > > > > > defence >> > > > > > > > > of >> > > > > > > > > > > Husain. >> They >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> are in >> > > fact >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> in tacit >> > > > agreement >> > > > > with >> > > > > > their >> > > > > > > Hindu >> > > > > > > > > peers. A >> > > > > > > > > > > Muslim >> making >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> images, >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> and that >> > > too of >> > > > > Hindu >> > > > > > > goddesses, >> > > > > > > > because >> > > > > > > > > he >> > > > > > > > > > is >> > > > > > > > > > > drawn to >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> them, can >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> only be >> > > seen as >> > > > > blasphemy >> > > > > > in >> > > > > > > their >> > > > > > > > eyes. >> > > > > > > > > On >> > > > > > > > > > this, >> > > > > > > > > > > like on >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> so many >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> other >> > > issues, >> > > > Hindu >> > > > > and >> > > > > > Muslim >> > > > > > > > > > >> fundamentalists are >> > > > > > > > > > > in total >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> agreement. >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Let me >> > > come now >> > > > to >> > > > > an >> > > > > > > interesting >> > > > > > > > > > counterfactual >> > > > > > > > > > > argument. >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> I refer to >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> the life >> > > an >> > > > work of >> > > > > a >> > > > > > little >> > > > > > > known >> > > > > > > > late >> > > > > > > > > > nineteenth >> > > > > > > > > > > century >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> and early >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> twentieth >> > > > century >> > > > > Urdu >> > > > > > poet of >> > > > > > > > Delhi >> > > > > > > > > called >> > > > > > > > > > Dillu >> > > > > > > > > > > Ram >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Kausari. >> > > Now as >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> his name >> > > > suggests, >> > > > > Dillu >> > > > > > Ram >> > > > > > > was a >> > > > > > > > > Hindu. The >> > > > > > > > > > > trouble >> is, >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> throughout >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> his life >> > > he >> > > > composed >> > > > > > > deliriously >> > > > > > > > > passionate >> > > > > > > > > > > elegies >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > (na'at) to >> > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Prophet >> > > > Muhammad. >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> One of his >> > > > quatrains >> > > > > went >> > > > > > as >> > > > > > > > follows >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Kuch >> > > 'ishq e >> > > > > Muhammad >> > > > > > mein >> > > > > > > nahin >> > > > > > > > shart >> > > > > > > > > e >> > > > > > > > > > > Musulman! >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Hai >> > > Kausari >> > > > Hindu >> > > > > bhii >> > > > > > > talabgaar e >> > > > > > > > > Muhammad! >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Allah re! >> > > kyaa >> > > > > raunaq e >> > > > > > bazaar >> > > > > > > e >> > > > > > > > > Muhammad >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Ke >> > > Ma'bood e >> > > > Jahan >> > > > > bhi >> > > > > > hai >> > > > > > > > kharidaar e >> > > > > > >> > > Muhammad! >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Being a >> > > Muslim >> > > > is >> > > > > not a >> > > > > > > condition >> > > > > > > > for >> > > > > > > > > loving >> > > > > > > > > > > Muhammad! >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Kausari, >> > > the >> > > > Hindu, >> > > > > is >> > > > > > also a >> > > > > > > > seeker of >> > > > > > > > > > Muhammad! >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> By Allah! >> > > How >> > > > > delightful >> > > > > > is >> > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > bazaar >> > > > >> > > > of >> > > > > > > > > > Muhammad >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> For the >> > > Lord of >> > > > the >> > > > > > Worlds is >> > > > > > > also >> > > > > > > > a >> > > > > > > > > buyer of >> > > > > > > > > > > Muhammad! >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> This kind >> > > of >> > > > > sentiment >> > > > > > shocked >> > > > > > > both >> > > > > > > > > Hindus >> > > > > > > > > > and >> > > > > > > > > > > Muslims. >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Hindus, >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> because >> > > how >> > > > could a >> > > > > Hindu >> > > > > > sing >> > > > > > > what >> > > > > > > > > amounted >> > > > > > > > > > to >> > > > > > > > > > > love >> songs >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> to a >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Muslim >> > > prophet, >> > > > and >> > > > > > Muslims, >> > > > > > > for >> > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > same >> > > > > > > > > > reason. >> > > > > > > > > > > Both felt >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> slighted >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> and >> > > insulted by >> > > > the >> > > > > > > transgressive >> > > > > > > > way in >> > > > > > > > > > which the >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > imagination of >> > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> poet had >> > > > > > 'touched' the >> > > > > > > body >> > > > > > > > of >> > > > > > > > > what >> > > > > > > > > > was >> > > > > > > > > > > sacred >> for >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> one, and >> > > not, >> > > > for >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> the other. >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Another >> > > poem, >> > > > which >> > > > > > proved to >> > > > > > > be >> > > > > > > > even >> > > > > > > > > more >> > > > > > > > > > > >> controversial, >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> went like >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> this - >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > Rahmatulilalamin kay >> > > > > > Hashar >> > > > > > > mein >> > > > > > > > > maana' >> > > > > > > > > > khulay >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Khalq >> > > saari >> > > > Shaafa e >> > > > > Roz >> > > > > > e >> > > > > > > Jaza kay >> > > > > > > > > saath hai >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Laykay >> > > Dillu >> > > > Raam ko >> > > > > > jannat >> > > > > > > mein >> > > > > > > > jab >> > > > > > > > > Hazrat >> > > > > > > > > > gaye >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Ma'loom >> > > huwa >> > > > kay >> > > > > Hindu >> > > > > > bhi >> > > > > > > > Mahboob e >> > > > > > > > > Khuda >> > > > > > > > > > kay >> > > > > > > > > > > saath >> hai! >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> The >> > > meaning of >> > > > > "Mercy >> > > > > > unto >> > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > Worlds" >> > > > > > > > > > became >> > > > > > > > > > > apparent >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> on >> > > Judgement >> > > > Day: >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> The whole >> > > > creation >> > > > > is >> > > > > > with the >> > > > > > > > > Intercessor of >> > > >> > > > > > The >> > > > > > > > > > > Day of >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Acquittal >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> When the >> > > > Prophet >> > > > > took >> > > > > > Dillu >> > > > > > > Ram >> > > > > > > > with him >> > > > > > > > > into >> > > > > > > > > > > Paradise >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> It was >> > > known >> > > > that >> > > > > this >> > > > > > Hindu >> > > > > > > too is >> > > > > > > > with >> > > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > > Beloved >> of >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> God! >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> This poem, >> > > > > especially >> > > > > > > scandalized >> > > > > > > > Muslim >> > > > > > > > > > > >> orthodoxy, because >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> it dared >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> to suggest >> > > that >> > > > the >> > > > > > prophet >> > > > > > > himself >> > > > > > > > > would >> > > > > > > > > > > intercede >> on >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> behalf of >> > > an >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> unbeliever >> > > on >> > > > the >> > > > > day of >> > > > > > > judgement. >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> It is >> > > > interesting to >> > > > > note >> > > > > > that >> > > > > > > > Dillu Ram >> > > > > > > > > > never >> > > > > > > > > > > became a >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Muslim, at >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> least not >> > > in >> > > > his >> > > > > > lifetime. An >> > > > > > > > article in >> > > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > > >> interesting >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> web portal >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Chowk >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > http://www.chowk.com/articles/12692 by >> > > > > > > > > > one >> > > > > > > > > > > Asif >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Naqshbandi >> > > says >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> "It >> > > is >> > > > also >> > > > > said >> > > > > > that >> > > > > > > Dillu >> > > > > > > > Ram, >> > > > > > > > > > delirious >> > > > > > > > > > > with his >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> love, >> > > would >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> sometimes >> > > stand >> > > > in >> > > > > the >> > > > > > middle >> > > > > > > of >> > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > bazaar >> > > > > > > > > > in >> > > > > > > > > > > Delhi, >> put >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> chains >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> around his >> > > neck >> > > > and >> > > > > feet >> > > > > > and >> > > > > > > shout >> > > > > > > > at >> > > > > > > > > the top >> > > > > > > > > > of >> > > > > > > > > > > his voice >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> to all >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > passers-by, >> > > > > "Muhammad! >> > > > > > > Muhammad! >> > > > > > > > > Muhammad! >> > > > > > > > > > Yes! >> > > > > > > > > > > Muhammad >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> is the >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Beloved of >> > > God! >> > > > > Muhammad >> > > > > > is >> > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > first >> > > > > > > > > and >> > > > > > > > > > only >> > > > > > > > > > > Beloved >> of >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> God! If >> > > God >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> loves you, >> > > He >> > > > loves >> > > > > you >> > > > > > > because of >> > > > > > > > His >> > > > > > > > > > Beloved!" >> > > > > > > > > > > Some >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> people >> > > even >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> stoned him >> > > and >> > > > he >> > > > > would >> > > > > > often >> > > > > > > come >> > > > > > > > home >> > > > > > > > > > covered in >> > > > > > > > > > > blood >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> but he was >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> totally >> > > lost in >> > > > his >> > > > > love >> > > > > > of >> > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > Prophet >> > > > > > > > > > (peace and >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> blessings >> > > be >> > > > upon >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > him!)" >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> There is >> > > an >> > > > > apocryphal >> > > > > > story >> > > > > > > of how >> > > > > > > > on >> > > > > > > > > his >> > > > > > > > > > > deathbed >> Dillu >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Ram >> > > Kausari >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> had a >> > > vision of >> > > > the >> > > > > > Prophet >> > > > > > > > himself, who >> > > > > > > > > came >> > > > > > > > > > to >> > > > > > > > > > > him, and >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> that he >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> read the >> > > Kalima >> > > > with >> > > > > him. >> > > > > > But >> > > > > > > as >> > > > > > > > this >> > > > > > > > > vision >> > > > > > > > > > is >> > > > > > > > > > > reported >> to >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> have >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> appeared >> > > only >> > > > to >> > > > > him, as >> > > > > > he >> > > > > > > lay >> > > > > > > > dying, >> > > > > > > > > and as >> > > > > > > > > > he >> > > > > > > > > > > is no >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> longer >> > > with us >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> to either >> > > > confirm or >> > > > > deny >> > > > > > this >> > > > > > > > deathbed >> > > > > > > > > > > >> conversion, we can >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> only >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> surmise >> > > that it >> > > > was >> > > > > a >> > > > > > > generous, but >> > > > > > > > > somewhat >> > > > > > > > > > > >> disingenuous >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> method of >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> having >> > > Dillu >> > > > > Ram's >> > > > > > > somewhat >> > > > > > > > > unorthodox >> > > > > > > > > > Muslim >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> apologists >> > > > claim him >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> for >> > > themselves. >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> As far as >> > > we >> > > > are >> > > > > > concerned, >> > > > > > > Dillu >> > > > > > > > Ram >> > > > > > > > > > Kausari, >> > > > > > > > > > > caused >> grave >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> offence, >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> by his >> > > love for >> > > > the >> > > > > > Prophet, >> > > > > > > both >> > > > > > > > to >> > > > > > > > > Hindu as >> > > > > > > > > > well >> > > > > > > > > > > as to >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Muslim >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> zealots, >> > > as >> > > > long as >> > > > > he >> > > > > > lived. >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> If, the >> > > things >> > > > we >> > > > > call >> > > > > > > religions >> > > > > > > > are >> > > > > > > > > > 'ways of >> > > > > > > > > > > life' >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> then we >> > > can >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> always >> > > > determine for >> > > > > > ourselves >> > > > > > > > whether >> > > > > > > > > we >> > > > > > > > > > want to >> > > > > > > > > > > walk on a >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> one way >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> street >> > > that >> > > > runs >> > > > > into a >> > > > > > dead >> > > > > > > end, >> > > > > > > > or to >> > > > > > > > > cross >> > > > > > > > > > many >> > > > > > > > > > > paths, >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> walking >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> down one >> > > way, >> > > > for >> > > > > one >> > > > > > purpose, >> > > > > > > down >> > > > > > > > > another >> > > > > > > > > > way >> > > > > > > > > > > for >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> another, >> > > and >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> sometimes >> > > just >> > > > > standing >> > > > > > in >> > > > > > > between >> > > > > > > > > paths, >> > > > > > > > > > figuring >> > > > > > > > > > > out our >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> journey, >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> as we go >> > > about >> > > > our >> > > > > lives. >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> I find >> > > cases >> > > > like >> > > > > Husain >> > > > > > and >> > > > > > > Dillu >> > > > > > > > Ram >> > > > > > > > > > Kausari >> > > > > > > > > > > >> interesting >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> not >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> becauseof >> > > what >> > > > they >> > > > > > paint of >> > > > > > > what >> > > > > > > > they >> > > > > > > > > say, >> > > > > > > > > > but >> > > > > > > > > > > because >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> they seem >> > > to >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> cause such >> > > > prolonged >> > > > > > traffic >> > > > > > > jams >> > > > > > > > on the >> > > > > > > > > > 'ways >> > > > > > > > > > > of >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> life'. >> > > And >> > > > all >> > > > > they >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> were doing >> > > was >> > > > > crossing >> > > > > > the >> > > > > > > road. >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> thanks and >> > > > regards, >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Shuddha >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> ----- >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > Shuddhabrata >> > > > > Sengupta >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > >> _________________________________________ >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > reader-list: an >> > > > open >> > > > > > > discussion >> > > > > > > > list on >> > > > > > > > > media >> > > > > > > > > > and >> > > > > > > > > > > the city. >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Critiques >> > > & >> > > > > > Collaborations >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> To >> > > subscribe: >> > > > send >> > > > > an >> > > > > > email to >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net >> > > > > > > with >> > > > > > > > > subscribe >> > > > > > > > > > in >> > > > > > > > > > > the >> subject >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> header. >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> To >> > > unsubscribe: >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> List >> > > archive: >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > _________________________________________ >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> reader-list: >> > > an >> > > > open >> > > > > > discussion >> > > > > > > list on >> > > > > > > > > media and >> > > > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > > city. >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Critiques >> > > & >> > > > > > Collaborations >> > > > > > > > > > > > To >> subscribe: >> > > send >> > > > an >> > > > > email >> > > > > > to >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net >> > > > > with >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> subscribe in >> > > the >> > > > subject >> > > > > > header. >> > > > > > > > > > > > To >> > > unsubscribe: >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > > > > > > > > > > List >> archive: >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> Shuddhabrata >> > > Sengupta >> > > > > > > > > > > The Sarai >> Programme >> > > at >> > > > CSDS >> > > > > > > > > > > Raqs >> Media >> > > Collective >> > > > > > > > > > > >> shuddha at sarai.net >> > > > > > > > > > > >> www.sarai.net >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > www.raqsmediacollective.net >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > _________________________________________ >> > > > > > > > > > > >> reader-list: an >> > > open >> > > > > discussion >> > > > > > list on >> > > > > > > > media and >> > > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > city. >> > > > > > > > > > > Critiques >> & >> > > > > Collaborations >> > > > > > > > > > > To >> subscribe: send >> > > an >> > > > email >> > > > > to >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net >> > > > > with >> > > > > > > subscribe >> > > > > > > > in >> > > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > subject >> > > > > > > > > > > header. >> > > > > > > > > > > To >> unsubscribe: >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > > > > > > > > > List >> archive: >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> >> > >> > >> > >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the >> city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject >> header. >> > To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject >> header. >> To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> > > > > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From indersalim at gmail.com Wed Sep 3 23:08:06 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 23:08:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmir-Tanks on busy market squares - Harsh Mander In-Reply-To: <868258.43627.qm@web57210.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <868258.43627.qm@web57210.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70809031038p7627c1b6p341792c97cc893b9@mail.gmail.com> so in essence what Harsh said was right. On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 8:53 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > A hurried reply, but not in haste > > Totally agree with what you have said and the way you have put it. > > > --- On Wed, 9/3/08, S. Jabbar wrote: > > From: S. Jabbar > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmir-Tanks on busy market squares - Harsh Mander > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, "Sarai" > Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 8:30 PM > > > Yes I agree he ought to have been careful but I think what he's referring to here is what we call commensurate force or lack thereof. At the height of militancy in the '90s this could have been understandable but I think these things ought to be reviewed periodically and calibrated like troop strength and the locations of bunkers. > > Do you really require armoured vehicles (bulletproof, mineproof, IED proof) with LMGs mounted on top at street corners in the Valley when the levels of incidents have dropped? I'd feel pretty offended if one moved into my neighbourhood. I've objected to armed bodyguards that trail behind important politicians in Lodi Park. I don't like the way guns have littered our landscape and become part of it. We've gotten so used to them now that we've almost forgotten what life looked like without them, when the policeman wielded nothing deadlier than a stout staff and the army man a bolt action three-naught-three. > > > > > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Reply-To: > Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 07:31:08 -0700 (PDT) > To: Sarai , "S. Jabbar" > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmir-Tanks on busy market squares - Harsh Mander > > No. > > But, if an idiot like me knows the difference, I would expect an IAS person to be much more aware. > > All said.... A Tank, is a Tank, is a Tank, is a Tank ........ > > I am sure he would have seen pics of the 'Tank' in Tiananmen Square. Maybe he was transposing from that to imagining Tanks in "busy market squares" ....."even in the small towns" of Kashmir. > > > --- On Wed, 9/3/08, S. Jabbar wrote: > > From: S. Jabbar > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmir-Tanks on busy market squares - Harsh Mander > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, "Sarai" > Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 7:45 PM > > !! Do you really think the ability to distinguish between weaponry should become a criterion in the administrative services? > > > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Reply-To: > Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 06:52:05 -0700 (PDT) > To: Sarai , "S. Jabbar" > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmir-Tanks on busy market squares - Harsh Mander > > Well! Well! Well! > > Mander is Ex IAS. Doesn't speak well of IAS. > > Tanks have 'Tracks' and APCs (at least in India) are wheeled. The girth and general size are distinctly different. > > I thought highly of Mander after his resigning from Govt service as a protest against the 'Gujarat Riots". But now ..... > > > --- On Wed, 9/3/08, S. Jabbar wrote: > > From: S. Jabbar > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmir-Tanks on busy market squares - Harsh Mander > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, "Sarai" > Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 6:58 PM > > A common mistake that people make when they come across armoured vehicles > with LMGs mounted on top. > > >> From: Kshmendra Kaul >> Reply-To: >> Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 06:14:17 -0700 (PDT) >> To: sarai list >> Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmir-Tanks on busy market squares - Harsh Mander >> >> The well known personality Harsh Mander is quoted as saying: > > """"""" Even in >> small towns, you encounter even today bullet-proof tanks stationed on busy >> market squares ...... """"" > > Would someone please let me know if this is >> true. Are there 'tanks' stationed on busy market squares even in > the small >> towns of Kashmir? This is the first time I have heard of this. > > Ex IAS cadre >> and current Director Action Aid India, Harsh Mander is not expected to > speak >> untruths. He is unlikely to mistake some other vehicle for being a >> "tank". > > If it is true then it is shameful. > > If it is not true, then Harsh >> Mander was being deliberately and deviously deceitful. "Tanks" > being stationed >> at busy market squares 'even in small towns' presents quite a > damning >> picture. > > The quote is from a Press Release (02/09/08) by 'Kashmiri American >> Council' about a seminar in Columbus, Ohio, USA . It was at > a convention of >> ISNA (Islamic Society of North America). > > Kshmendra > > > >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion >> list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an >> email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject >> header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From shambhu.rahmat at gmail.com Thu Sep 4 09:29:20 2008 From: shambhu.rahmat at gmail.com (Shambhu Rahmat) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 09:59:20 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Random Rule of Law in Bangladesh Message-ID: By Rater Zonaki Column: Humanity or Humor? http://upiasiaonline.com/Human_Rights/2008/09/02/random_rule_of_law_in_bangladesh/8404/ Rater Zonaki is the pseudonym of a human rights defender based in Hong Kong working at the Asian Human Rights Commission. The High Court finally compelled the military-controlled government of Bangladesh to release an imprisoned businessman on Aug. 28, after the authorities ignored the court’s order for more than a week. The army-led Joint Forces arrested Salman F. Rahman, a top businessman and former president of the Federation of Chambers of Commerce and Industries, on Feb. 4, 2007, under the Emergency Powers Rules-2007. He was subsequently charged in seven cases of corruption and land-grabbing. Salman managed to receive bail in six of the cases during his prolonged detention, none of which has yet come to trial. On Aug. 20 the High Court granted bail to Salman in the last case against him, in which he is accused of corruption in connection with the International Finance Investment and Commerce Bank. The prison authorities received the court order but took no action. Salman's counsel, Barrister Rafique-ul Haque, a former attorney general of Bangladesh, had been contacting the prison authorities every day until Aug. 25, while the concerned officials kept assuring him that his client would be released on the following day. However, eight days passed and Salman was not released. Haque brought the issue to the notice of the court, which summoned the attorney general and held him accountable for failing to release the prisoner. On Aug. 28 Salman's counsel attempted to lodge a contempt-of-court complaint against the responsible officials. The court asked the attorney general to produce Salman before it within one hour, unless the top public servant wished to be summoned for contempt of court. The authorities soon released Salman from the Kashimpur jail after this strict intervention. The day Salman was arrested, and at one point detained in the cantonment police station in Dhaka, this writer witnessed him moving around in the office of the police station, which was surrounded by police and other forces. In contrast, the poor who are regularly arrested by members of the same forces face radically different treatment. A person like Salman F. Rahman, who could afford to pay for attention at the Supreme Court level, was able to manage bail for the cases against him lodged by the military-controlled government. He had access to a high-profile lawyer, a former attorney general, and enough money to spend on arranging his bail. Still it took around one-and-a-half years for him to be freed. Similar intervention from the High Court does not happen to the poor like Mohammad Ripon, a hosiery worker who earned only 3,000 takas (about US$44) per month, despite working hard from 8:00 a.m. to 10:00 p.m. every day at a tiny factory in Dhaka. He lived in a dormitory in a slum adjacent to the Turag River. One day before the state of emergency was imposed, when Ripon was walking home late in the evening, the Shah Ali police arrested him. He was detained in police custody overnight and was sent to jail via a Magistrate's Court that implicated him in a case of petty theft. Mosharaf Hossain, owner of the factory where Ripon was employed, told this writer in front of the Dhaka Central Jail that he had been waiting for Ripon's release. Mosharaf reasoned that Ripon, the only hosiery producer of his factory, had no relatives except his elderly mother, who lived in a shelter in Pabna district, around 300 kilometers from the capital. Due to Ripon's detention Mosharaf's factory was closed, and there was no trusted substitute for him. Mosharaf spent more than 4,000 takas (US$58) on a lawyer for five days, excluding his transportation and other expenditures, such as bribes to court staff so they would allow him to stand in the queue to present a petition for bail. Every day the lawyer assured him that Ripon would be released, and suggested that Mosharaf wait in front of the jail's gate to receive him. But Ripon did not come out. Mosharaf was counting the money he spent, planning to deduct it from Ripon's salary once he was released. He needed his employee back for the survival of his hosiery factory. The 4,000 takas he had spent was more than one month’s salary for Ripon; but it was not enough to secure his release or get the attention of the High Court. Around 500,000 people were arrested as part of the government’s crackdown under the state of emergency. Among them, about 200 are very rich, like Salman. Perhaps 1,000 could afford the cost of legal proceedings in the Supreme Court. On the other hand, the huge majority of those who were arrested cannot afford even the minimum expenses for justice at a district level court. The victims of arbitrary arrest and detention have been facing unimaginable suffering while large amounts of money are wasted in the process of trying to obtain justice, apparently for nothing. It may require special research to expose the whole situation concerning economic losses incurred in the futile attempt to secure due legal process. The courts of Bangladesh, especially the Supreme Court, seem unable to remedy this situation. The courts should be competent enough to address the serious problems the nation is now facing. It is not debatable that courts exist to ensure effective and prompt compliance with the law. They should ensure that no one, including legal professionals, is allowed to avoid or ignore their responsibilities. The century-old habits, attitudes and mindset of the judiciary must be changed if the nation is to be saved from the dirty ditch of arbitrary behavior and survive with dignity. – (Rater Zonaki is the pseudonym of a human rights defender based in Hong Kong working at the Asian Human Rights Commission. He is a Bangladeshi national with a degree in literature from a university in Dhaka. He began his career as a journalist in 1990 and engaged in human rights activism at the grassroots level in his country for more than a decade. He also worked as an editor for publications on human rights and socio-cultural issues and contributed to other similar publications.) From nonstopfilmfestival at yahoo.de Wed Sep 3 23:41:30 2008 From: nonstopfilmfestival at yahoo.de (vier undzwanzig) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 18:11:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] 24 hours of Nuremberg - NON STOP FILM FESTIVAL 7/8 November 2008 Message-ID: <660277.54303.qm@web26002.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Dear filmmakers, we invite you to participate again at our international short film festival. We still accept films for our festival on November 7/8. At the 24 hours of Nuremberg, all films are screened NONSTOP, beginning on Friday 07.11.2008, 21h until Saturday 08.11.2008, 21h, in the order submitted at the festival. The festival has 3 awards: Best audience award, for the most enduring spectators.Audience award for the best film. Young cinematographer award, accorded by the Filmbüro Franken to a regional filmmaker. entry form and further infos available at: www.nonstopfilm.info best regards Anselm Lenhardt 24 Stunden von Nürnberg Filmhaus / K4 Nonstopfilm e.V. www.nonstopfilm.info Königstr. 93 90402 Nürnberg Germany fax: ++49 (0)911 231 8330 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sie sind Spam leid? Yahoo! Mail verfügt über einen herausragenden Schutz gegen Massenmails. http://mail.yahoo.com From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Thu Sep 4 14:42:01 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 14:42:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0809040209x36039c0fjde7275560b7eb74a@mail.gmail.com> References: <47e122a70809030644g483a5b2en985bbcd466c44c9b@mail.gmail.com> <319517.61062.qm@web51407.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <47e122a70809031030l8c80ad2p2699cebbeb999893@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809040209x36039c0fjde7275560b7eb74a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0809040212k69f482ban2606bf38ddae0e3e@mail.gmail.com> A few thoughts on an interesting discussion. One term I think that has remained unexamined in this discussion is "hurt" or "sentiment". By this I mean not an assessment of whether that hurt is justified, valid etc, who is to decide whether this offends or not, whether this is offensive or not, the relative self-sufficiency of value systems and speaking across them. But the inherent value of hurt as a positive force in itself. Let me try and explain what I mean. Why is "hurt sentiment" a bad thing in itself? Can having one's sentiments hurt, sometimes quite badly, not be a positive force? Might it not impell me to re-think, or think, about my sentiments in a manner that is creative? Maybe those sentiments are better discarded. Maybe my outrage alerts me to a violence I have been commiting without realising it. Maybe if more people's sentiments were outraged a little more forcefully, then we would be living in a far more democratic and tolerant world. Further, I do not see why only religious communities have a monopoly on sentiments which can then be hurt. As a feminist, my sentiments are assaulted on a routine and regular basis. As someone who believes in a version of social justice and equality, once articulated by, but not only by, Marx for instance, my feelings are continually trampled over. As someone who believes in a secular vision, the discussions on this list offend me everyday. However i do not see this being taken very seriously. And it needn't, that is the point. It is up to me to alchemize this outrage, hurt, sadness in a manner that enables me to live and act in the world. This is actually how we live our lives generally. My mother, or father, or lover, or friend might say something that hurts me terribly. Not always is this clarified, discussed, put in its right perspective. All our lives are all littered with silent archives of hurts we have never expressed. There is no heroic moment in which resolution is sought for hurts. And no one can do this for anyone... The recent Vogue advertisements doing the rounds, around which there has been some discussion on this list, have hurt the sentiments of many people. A few years ago another set of advertisements for brand equity in which two tribal women are shown discussing the tans they have got in Monte Carlo to an accompanying snide and contemptous copy which said something about how advertisers need to accurately reach their consumers, also outraged many of us. Having thought about this, I realised that though both the Vogue ads and the brand equity ads trouble me, they do so in different ways. The Vogue ads can be read in one of many ways - that it posits a horizon of desire that is unachievable for the people it uses for the ad. In some sense then the frisson of the ad derives from the discrepancy in what is desired and what is possible. Further it assumes that their horizon of desire will follow the trajectory laid out by Vogue. But most interesting to me is that both Vogue and the critics work with a fixed definition of poverty in the first place, and certain trajectory of the direction a life can take. The second set of ads function on precisely the opposite principle. Rather than positing an eventual horizon of desire, they deem a present life as failed, and urges us to recognise its failure. It presumes and makes me complicit in a social consensus in which we can use languages in a manner as if we are all agreed on the terms in operation. Can you see the difference in both ads? They both trouble me deeply, but they trouble me in different ways. How is this at all useful, or valuable? I think it is. I think to be able to carefully work through how and why and in what ways something arrives to me and what it disturbs is a critical thing, if we are to fashion any sort of language to deal with the violence of the present. with regards Aarti From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Sep 4 14:54:57 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 14:54:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Bihar Flood Help Message-ID: <6b79f1a70809040224k50ba7cf3xa19d5f58569eb8bb@mail.gmail.com> GOONJ H.O Delhi-J-93, Sarita Vihar, New Delhi- 76 Tel.- 011-26972351, 41401216 goonjinfo at gmail.com, anshugoonj24 at gmail.com GOONJ Mumbai- Mr. Rohit Singh Tel.- 9322381600, rohitgoonj1 at gmail.com GOONJ Chennai- Ms. Padma Tel.- 9842665320, padmagoonj at gmail.com Source : http://www.writingcave.com/biharfloods/index.php?title=Main_Page From phadkeshilpa at gmail.com Thu Sep 4 17:38:19 2008 From: phadkeshilpa at gmail.com (Shilpa Phadke) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 17:38:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Save the Date: 26th September 2008: NIRVANAM, a performance by Pritham K Chakravarthy Message-ID: * Culture Café, Centre for Media and Cultural Studies, TISS presents NIRVANAM by Pritham K Chakravarthy DATE: 26th September 2008 TIME: 6 pm. VENUE:: Main Quadrangle, Tata Institute of Social Sciences Main Campus, Sion Trombay Road, Deonar, Mumbai. Entry Free Nirvanam is a powerful one person performative exploration of the journey towards becoming an Aravani (or transgendered subject). Nirvanam (Liberation) refers to the act of liberating oneself from the male body and transforming oneself to a female. This narrative bears witness to the tumultuous journey towards a reinvented selfhood, a journey fraught with violence, exploitation, affection and courage. About the Actor Pritham K Chakravarthy is a storyteller, playwright, director and actor. Scripted and performed by Pritham, Nirvanam was a part of The Edinburgh International Festival 2002. Since then all her solo pieces, Nirvanam, Mirror/Kannadi and Dushala have been performed extensively in the UK and USA. Within the country they have been featured at The Park Other Festival, The Metro Theatre Festival, Bangalore Habba and Natarani Festival of Non-violence. She has been the recipient of several fellowships, including Ashoka Innovators Fellowship, 1995-96, Fulbright Fellowship, 2002-2003, Charles Wallace Fellowship, 2007 and the SARAI Independent Fellowship 2007. She is also an author and a translator. Her latest work includes The Blaft Anthology of Tamil Pulp Fiction and Zero Degree – Charu Nivedita. * From pawan.durani at gmail.com Thu Sep 4 17:58:42 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 17:58:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Mr. Murtaza You Wanted More Proof ? Message-ID: <6b79f1a70809040528l7bb4f584ic0beeb25f512f831@mail.gmail.com> _________________________________________________________ Four arrested in Handwara for desecrating Quran *Srinagar, Sept 02:* Police today claimed to have arrested four persons who according to it were involved in desecrating the holy Quran at Wadipora Handwara on August 25. Giving details, police spokesman said a group of four persons headed by Tariq Ahmad Dar, son of Abdul Subhan Dar of Chalpora Wadipora had hatched a conspiracy at Wadipora Chowk to disturb the already sensitive situation by arousing religious sentiments of the people of Rajwar. Besides Tariq, spokesman said Javid Ahmad Khan, son of Khazir Mohammed Khan of Chalpora Wadipora; Khursheed Ahmad Shah, son of Mohammed Dilawar Shah of Chalpora Wadipora and Tariq Ahmad Dar, son of Ghulam Ahmad Dar also of Chalpora Wadipora were involved in the conspiracy. According to SSP Handwara, this group entered the mosque of Chalpora Wadipora after 'Isha' (late night) prayers on August 24 and took out the holy Quran from the mosque and desecrated it on the main road of Wadipora, which sparked violent protests by the locals of Rajwar Handwara on the following day. From zigzackly at gmail.com Thu Sep 4 19:40:46 2008 From: zigzackly at gmail.com (peter griffin) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 19:40:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] help needed on a Bihar Floods wiki In-Reply-To: <4d145a50809022117u2a4c15b9m9f36c67c9e8f8086@mail.gmail.com> References: <4d145a50809022117u2a4c15b9m9f36c67c9e8f8086@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4d145a50809040710l7bdeda3sc4b43048e8f24f18@mail.gmail.com> Amrit Hallan has begun a Bihar Floods wikion his site. He would welcome as much help as you can give him. So if you have useful information about aid efforts in Bihar, please go register on the wiki and pitch in. You could also mail Amrit at *amrit AT amrithallan DOT com*. From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Thu Sep 4 21:33:24 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 22:03:24 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Arrests at American Theater of Absurd Message-ID: Why We Were Falsely Arrested Wednesday 03 September 2008 by: Amy Goodman, Truthdig St. Paul, Minnesota - Government crackdowns on journalists are a true threat to democracy. As the Republican National Convention meets in St. Paul, Minn., this week, police are systematically targeting journalists. I was arrested with my two colleagues, "Democracy Now!" producers Sharif Abdel Kouddous and Nicole Salazar, while reporting on the first day of the RNC. I have been wrongly charged with a misdemeanor. My co-workers, who were simply reporting, may be charged with felony riot. The Democratic and Republican national conventions have become very expensive and protracted acts of political theater, essentially four-day-long advertisements for the major presidential candidates. Outside the fences, they have become major gatherings for grass-roots movements-for people to come, amidst the banners, bunting, flags and confetti, to express the rights enumerated in the Constitution's First Amendment: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." Behind all the patriotic hyperbole that accompanies the conventions, and the thousands of journalists and media workers who arrive to cover the staged events, there are serious violations of the basic right of freedom of the press. Here on the streets of St. Paul, the press is free to report on the official proceedings of the RNC, but not to report on the police violence and mass arrests directed at those who have come to petition their government, to protest. It was Labor Day, and there was an anti-war march, with a huge turnout, with local families, students, veterans and people from around the country gathered to oppose the war. The protesters greatly outnumbered the Republican delegates. There was a positive, festive feeling, coupled with a growing anxiety about the course that Hurricane Gustav was taking, and whether New Orleans would be devastated anew. Later in the day, there was a splinter march. The police-clad in full body armor, with helmets, face shields, batons and canisters of pepper spray-charged. They forced marchers, onlookers and working journalists into a nearby parking lot, then surrounded the people and began handcuffing them. Nicole was videotaping. Her tape of her own violent arrest is chilling. Police in riot gear charged her, yelling, "Get down on your face." You hear her voice, clearly and repeatedly announcing "Press! Press! Where are we supposed to go?" She was trapped between parked cars. The camera drops to the pavement amidst Nicole's screams of pain. Her face was smashed into the pavement, and she was bleeding from the nose, with the heavy officer with a boot or knee on her back. Another officer was pulling on her leg. Sharif was thrown up against the wall and kicked in the chest, and he was bleeding from his arm. I was at the Xcel Center on the convention floor, interviewing delegates. I had just made it to the Minnesota delegation when I got a call on my cell phone with news that Sharif and Nicole were being bloody arrested, in every sense. Filmmaker Rick Rowley of Big Noise Films and I raced on foot to the scene. Out of breath, we arrived at the parking lot. I went up to the line of riot police and asked to speak to a commanding officer, saying that they had arrested accredited journalists. Within seconds, they grabbed me, pulled me behind the police line and forcibly twisted my arms behind my back and handcuffed me, the rigid plastic cuffs digging into my wrists. I saw Sharif, his arm bloody, his credentials hanging from his neck. I repeated we were accredited journalists, whereupon a Secret Service agent came over and ripped my convention credential from my neck. I was taken to the St. Paul police garage where cages were set up for protesters. I was charged with obstruction of a peace officer. Nicole and Sharif were taken to jail, facing riot charges. The attack on and arrest of me and the "Democracy Now!" producers was not an isolated event. A video group called I-Witness Video was raided two days earlier. Another video documentary group, the Glass Bead Collective, was detained, with its computers and video cameras confiscated. On Wednesday, I-Witness Video was again raided, forced out of its office location. When I asked St. Paul Police Chief John Harrington how reporters are to operate in this atmosphere, he suggested, "By embedding reporters in our mobile field force." On Monday night, hours after we were arrested, after much public outcry, Nicole, Sharif and I were released. That was our Labor Day. It's all in a day's work. -------- Amy Goodman is the host of "Democracy Now!," a daily international TV/radio news hour airing on more than 700 stations in North America. From yousufism at gmail.com Thu Sep 4 22:16:40 2008 From: yousufism at gmail.com (M Yousuf) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 22:16:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmir's Sea Of Stories Message-ID: <19ba050f0809040946y2df274c6id661c950c1583130@mail.gmail.com> http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20080903&fname=kashmir&sid=1 *Kashmir's Sea Of Stories* *These stories—and their storytellers—are everywhere. Stories which move and mobilize, with which to irrigate their suffering and their struggle. We, on the other hand, have no stories to offer, or at least none that are not hollow, corrupt and coercive...* [image: ...] Suvir Kaul To visit Kashmir, even for a short while, is to drown, slowly but surely, in a sea of stories. It is impossible to avoid them, for like the legendary lakes that dot Kashmir's valleys, these stories—and their storytellers—are everywhere. I will re-tell some stories here to suggest one powerful reason why, this summer, in the midst of seeming calm and teeming tourists, an administrative decision about land usage has precipitated such a social and political crisis. The issue is not simply that of land any longer, but of a land so drenched in tales of suffering and violence that peace is never more than surface-thin. There is the story that begins as the snow-melt from the high mountains, which each year swells the streams, rivers, and lakes, and brings life to paddy fields and vegetable gardens. For the past nineteen years, this rush of water has featured strange new fruit--bodies and faces--mangled or sometimes oddly preserved, as they bob along the surface. No Kashmiri who watches them pass by, or sees them being pulled to the side, forgets what they have seen. These visions sear themselves into the brain, and the only comfort is to tell of what they have seen, till the vision itself, and the tone of the story, becomes muted, and matter-of-fact. There is the story of the Gujjar girl, raped by three paramilitary soldiers, and left to die in the fields. She lived, the three were prosecuted, and perhaps punished, but the story does not end with this intimation of justice, for the restless story-teller still wonders why no one asked about the seventeen other soldiers who watched and did nothing? Should they not have intervened, for were they not in uniform, and supposed to be protecting their own, their fellow-citizens of the republic? Then there is a tale with many variations: two brothers, on their way to till their fields, run into a contingent of soldiers. The soldiers demand that the brothers show them the route up a hillside, and then, when they are near the top, tell them to stand by the lip of the river gorge. How many brothers are you at home, they ask. Four say the brothers. Good, says one of the soldiers, then we can kill the two of you and there will still be two others. This will be good population control but your families will survive. They tell them to raise their pherans and cover their faces. Two shots ring out, both bodies plummet into the gorge. The younger one dies, but the older lives, as the shot enters one cheek and exits the other, shattering one side of his face. Their village below hears the shots, and then sees, in the stream, the red of blood. This story too is told without flourishes, for the teller knows that even as he tells the story of his best friend, the younger brother who was murdered, he can claim no unique pain, for there are so many more stories just like this one. There are stories that feature buildings, Papa 1 and Papa 2, the notorious interrogation centers in the heart of posh Srinagar. Many died there, or were mangled in mind and body, and some claim that their cries still reverberate there. These buildings are now reclaimed by the civil administration, and house important people. The administration claimed that this would heal these buildings of their histories, but the many who were interned there, and the many, many more, whose loved ones disappeared into the two Papas, see little healing, only a handing over of property from one set of rulers to another. This too is one effect of the circulation of such stories, for those who hear them, and have heard them for almost two decades now, cannot hear when those in power speak. They stand and listen—Kashmiris have always stood and listened—but all they hear are the songs of the disappeared and the dead. Pictures tell stories too, of course, and there are so many to be seen, for the world has an insatiable appetite for images of suffering. Kashmir's Sea Of Stories [image: Previous] [image: 1] (2 of 2)Crying women crowd these frames, their sorrow and their anger at odds with their chunnis and head-scarves of many colours. Their faces, and those of the little ones, who cry not because they know who has been lost but because their mothers and aunts are distraught, are the new face of Kashmir. They weep as one for their gun-toting insurgent son, who climbed the high mountains in pursuit of a dangerous dream, or their carpenter-brother, who left the house for supplies and never returned home. There are pictures of buildings aflame, the end result of a skirmish between violent men, or the more spectacular one of the precise moment when the military blows up two homes from which militants fire at them. The tone of the photograph is uncannily like the tone of the stories: the roar of the blast is muted into the visual whoosh of debris flying high, with the quiet, understated certainty of death. Pictures and poetry, stories and songs—who could have known that two decades of violence could have made these the weapons of the weak? And then there are other pictures that are almost as inspiring: masses of men, and of women, mobilized into processions, surging forward, arms in the air and mouths open with slogans, storming into a future that holds few promises except for the certainty of more pain. There is another set of stories though, that is told less and less often as the years go by, but whose power to haunt and to vex does not fade. They too feature people who were killed, but they are mostly about exile, about leaving homes and hearths in fear. These are Hindu stories, or at least stories of Hindus, and of their horror at hearing, in their neighbourhoods, the strident voices of hate. There is no compensation for their loss, which is also the loss of a set of stories that complemented and completed Kashmir's web of enchantments. They will never be replaced, but, slowly but surely, their telling will fade in the face of the other more urgent, more recently painful, stories Muslims have to tell. And finally, when all the policy planners, the politicians, and the military men have done their work, it is these stories that will defy their logic. We—I now write as an Indian and a democrat—have no convincing stories to offer Kashmiris, no narratives of inclusion and oneness. We have watched, and listened—but not really done either—as large sections of "our" Kashmiri population are brutalized and reduced to the status of supplicants. We think our promises of development, and of belonging to an India burgeoning into a superpower, will wean them away from the stories they now imbibe. We should know that we have in fact, no stories to offer, or at least none that are not hollow, corrupt and coercive. And they now have a sea of stories, stories which move and mobilize, with which to irrigate their suffering and their struggle. I will be keenly affected by the outcome of this struggle, I know, but I know also, even more forcefully, that we have lost the moral right not to let Kashmiris compose their own stories. We do not know what form those stories will take, nor what conclusions they will offer. They might tell of the coming of an Islamic state, or of union with a Muslim neighbour, or they might imagine a future of continuing toleration and exchange, a reassertion of the Islam and Hinduism of the sufis and the rishis. Or they might yearn (and I hope this will be the case) for a secular polity in which Kashmiris of all religions and of none can participate fully. We cannot know in advance what those stories might be, but they need to be conceived, shared, and debated.If we value democracy, we can encourage no less. ------------------------------ *Suvir Kaul is A. M. Rosenthal Professor and Chair, Department of English, University of Pennsylvania, USA* From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Thu Sep 4 23:46:10 2008 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 23:46:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Chengara heaves a sigh of relief In-Reply-To: <35f96d470809041115u1be2dd34w766094da8ef1678c@mail.gmail.com> References: <35f96d470809041115y61602754jc1e78ef077b2a89@mail.gmail.com> <35f96d470809041115u1be2dd34w766094da8ef1678c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <35f96d470809041116h4bb02075v6630d58d26ff4d02@mail.gmail.com> Chengara heaves a sigh of relief Pioneer News Service | Pathanamthitta The march by the workers belonging to different trade unions in Pathanamthitta district and led by the pro-CPI(M) CITU to the estates of Chengara where thousands of Dalits and Adivasis were staging a 13-month-long agitation passed off peacefully on Wednesday with the timely intervention of the Marxist leadership and the efficient deployment of the police personnel in places by the District Administration. The march, which had shot up the social and political temperatures in the State and spread panic among the more than 7,000 agitators demanding land livelihood for their family, was blocked by the police about a kilometer away from the estate and the workers dispersed after a dharna there. The intention of the march was meant to forcefully evict the agitators from the estate so that the workers of the estate would get their jobs back. The CPI(M) leadership had reportedly spoken to the district CITU leaders on Tuesday night after the agitators in the estate reiterated their resolve to commit suicide en masse if anybody forcefully entered into the agitation camp. Following this, the leaders of the various trade unions including CIYU, AITUC and BMS agreed to the request of District Collector PC Sanal Kumar to avoid violence in the estate. However, the BMS had even earlier said that their workers would withdraw from the march at the first hint of any violent action from the marchers. But the tension and panic in Kerala over the Chengara issue refused to subside with the trade unions giving an ultimatum to the District Administration on Wednesday that they would again march to the estate and take appropriate action to evict the agitators if the issue was not settled before September 10. Till then, the workers would continue their siege on the paths leading to the estate. This raised the fear of yet another humanitarian crisis in the estate as the workers threatened not to allow any of the agitators to get into or get out of the estate during the siege. The fear and tension in the entire Pathanamthitta district and also in Kerala had risen after the trade unions refused to abandon their march and the Sadhu Jana Vimochana Samyuktha Vedi spearheading the agitation for land declaring that they would commit suicide en masse if the workers entered the estate. On Wednesday, police blocked the march which started at Konnappara by more than 3,000 workers, including women, at Athumbunkulam, about a kilometer away from Chengara estate. The District Administration had mobilised more than 1,000 police personnel, even drawing them from the neighbouring districts with all implements to meet any type of emergency in estate. District Collector Sanal Kumar had reviewed the situation with visit to the place on Tuesday evening. Deputy Collector V Balakrishnan and tahsildars of Kozhenchery, Ranni and Thiruvalla taluks had stationed in Athumbunkulam as executive magistrates to issue necessary orders if things got out of hand for the police. All the Dy SPs in the district under Superintendent of Police AJ James had been present there to lead the more-than-one thousand strong police force to handle any kind of mishap. N Mahesan, Revenue Divisional Officer, Adoor coordinated the entire team. Reacting to the day's developments, Opposition leader Oommen Chandy said the LDF Government had failed in settling the Chengara issue. The Government should provide land for the landless and to protect the interests of the workers, he said while speaking at a fast held by Chengara Agitation Solidarity Committee in Thiruvananthapuram. Meanwhile, reports came out that a campaign was on to spread wrong messages that the Dalits and Adivasis under the Sadhu Jana Vomochana Samyuktha Vedi were preparing to face the challenge from the trade unions in the same coin. Vedi leaders said that there were efforts from some interested quarters to spread wrong reports that the agitators were preparing for a Muthanga-like attack against intruders. They said that they had held this agitation for the past 13-months in the most peaceful manner without causing any problems for anyone. The greatest strength for them was in their power to tolerate anything and everything and there was no effort to pursue the path of violence, Vedi leaders said. For any comments, queries or feedback, kindly mail us at pioneerletters at yahoo.co.in From pkray11 at gmail.com Fri Sep 5 02:25:39 2008 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 02:25:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Sadanand Menon on Bihar floods Message-ID: <98f331e00809041355u433cf87fm82d7695b5af876b6@mail.gmail.com> http://www.business-standard.com/india/storypage.php?autono=333521 *Sadanand Menon on Bihar floods *Not floods but criminal design failure- Sadanand Menon The jacketing or embanking of the river systems in north Bihar must go down as among the most ill-thought out schemes in Independent India. I am talking about the so-called 'floods' in north Bihar. Many adjectives have been spun by political and media establishments over the past three weeks to describe the unprecedented inundation of 16 districts and displacement of close to five million people. It has been called a deluge, devastation and a 'national calamity'. No one, however, has used the term 'criminal design failure' and sought to expose the culpability of political and technical establishments in the whole sordid affair. No one has pointed out that it was a 50-year-old time-bomb waiting to explode. Even as the first of this modern-Indian project of embanking the Kosi began in 1955, it was clear that a recipe for disaster had been drawn up and that Bihar was due for a jala-samadhi sooner or later. There is an attempt to treat the August 18 breach in the eastern embankment of Kosi at Kusaha, on the Indo-Nepal border, as some kind of a unique, one-off event. As if this was a 'natural disaster' due to unusually heavy rainfall in the Himalayan slopes from where the river originates. Worse, as if Nepal was to blame, as it allegedly reneged on its commitments to maintain and dredge the barrage and the embankments on its side of the border due its preoccupation with the political change of guard there. No one has so much as whispered that the maintenance of the barrage and the embankments is the responsibility of the engineers of the Bihar Water Resources Department. Demonising Nepal is one of those convenient blame games the media likes to indulge in and it is not new, in the context of a drowning Bihar. In earlier years too such accusations have been made along with contradictory proposals to seek multi-national corporate investments to build and operate mega dams on the Nepal part of the river, particularly the Kosi High Dam at Barahkshetra. >From the time I travelled in these parts 20 years ago, studying the repeating annual cycle of water-logging, food or water famines, homelessness and epidemics in the 16 districts of north Bihar, it has been clear to me that there is a deep criminality in the planning, designing and execution of the river embankment projects of this region. The basic story is about how the north to south flowing rivers in Bihar like the Mahananda, Kosi, Kamala, Dhousa, Adhwara, Bagmati, Burhi Gandak, Gandak and Ghaghra were subjected to systematic embanking since 1954. The initial intention was to contain the natural swing of these rivers as they gushed down from the foothills of Nepal to the plains of Bihar. The plan was to introduce about 150 kilometres of embankment on the Kosi to protect a declared 'flood prone' area in the state of some 25 lakh hectares. Today, some 50 years later, north Bihar is a warren of over 3,500 kilometres of embankments, with the declared 'flood prone' area having crossed a staggering 75 lakh hectares. And this staggering debacle has been at the cost of over Rs 3, 000 crore. The embankment debate had, in fact, begun in the late 19th century and there exist at least 70 years of records till the 1950s in which most expert opinion warns against pursuing the embankment route to tackle perennial overflowing or swing in a river's temperament, as it would impede natural drainage. Kosi's character was to rush down the hills with an immense load of top soil and spread it across the plains, enabling a bumper crop the next year. The initial embankments, eight feet high, converted the Kosi bed into a catchment area for silt. As the first phase ended in1965, the river had risen four feet. The bund had to be raised further. This became a regular cycle. Today, Kosi flows a good 25 to 30 feet above ground level. Every time there is a threat of flooding, parts of the embankment are strategically dynamited to let the water out. This is what gets labelled the 'flood'. But this is a flood that cannot recede. The river basin is way above ground level and water cannot flow upwards. The inundated villages between as well as outside the embankments stay water-logged for months on end, leading to rise in soil salinity, water-borne diseases and producing hordes of migrant labour. Even before the current crisis in Bihar — for the past twenty-five years — at least 3.5 million people have been living in shacks atop the embankments, making rotis out of the seeds of a grass that grows on its slopes. The embankment project is one of the greatest 'design failures' of our times. This is not the last we are going to hear of the floods. Bihar is destined to stay submerged for a long time. From tbd.lists at gmail.com Fri Sep 5 08:02:53 2008 From: tbd.lists at gmail.com (Tea BeeDi) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 08:02:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions In-Reply-To: <319517.61062.qm@web51407.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <47e122a70809030644g483a5b2en985bbcd466c44c9b@mail.gmail.com> <319517.61062.qm@web51407.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4573cd0e0809041932x75cb2fa3u73afd0cfaaa01b13@mail.gmail.com> Hmm.. Who is not an artist? Some how the following that a friend pointed out, in the context of a conversation on dropouts, finds an 'artistic', 'religio' and wordly stance against (hmm, for?) the fanatics of this conversation. no? :) -d --- Leary, ~1960: "Like every great religion of the past we seek to find the divinity within and to express this revelation in a life of glorification and the worship of God. These ancient goals we define in the metaphor of the present — turn on, tune in, drop out." Leary later explained in his 1983 autobiography Flashbacks: " 'Turn on' meant go within to activate your neural and genetic equipment. Become sensitive to the many and various levels of consciousness and the specific triggers that engage them. Drugs were one way to accomplish this end. 'Tune in' meant interact harmoniously with the world around you - externalize, materialize, express your new internal perspectives. Drop out suggested an elective, selective, graceful process of detachment from involuntary or unconscious commitments. 'Drop Out' meant self-reliance, a discovery of one's singularity, a commitment to mobility, choice, and change. Unhappily my explanations of this sequence of personal development were often misinterpreted to mean 'Get stoned and abandon all constructive activity'. --- On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 8:34 PM, Yousuf wrote: > Dear Salim > You are right, an artist should never have to explain. But Picasso probably never had people killing each others angered by his paintings. But (as we have discussed earlier on this theme) if you are doing an art for public, would you not be concerned if the public appreciates it? No one is born appreciating high art - we acquire a tastes for everything. The point is, whose responsibity is it to inculcate the appreciation of art in society? If its a Madhubani painting done on the facade of my village house by my mother, its very much there in my genes. But if it is a horse by Hussain kept in a gallery to which I have no access, somebody has to do a bit of explaining on why such art is distanced from social reality (which actually is not, but the market has made it look so). > > Yousuf > > > --- On Wed, 9/3/08, inder salim wrote: > >> From: inder salim >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions >> To: reader-list at sarai.net >> Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 7:14 PM >> Picasso said, if it is possible to explian, it is futile to >> paint. >> >> even if i we gnore picasso, who is an old hat in modern art >> now, let >> alone hussain sahib who is immensely supported by >> investors, and 'post >> colonialism' as theoritical justificaioin to do >> whatever he or we >> sometimes are doing which can pass as derivate at the >> best. >> >> what is education or what is not , what is offensive or >> what is not, >> is difficult to explain, if one chases the text, and its >> meaning >> profoundly... >> >> what we forget also is the fact that what we see are >> phtographs of the >> the original >> >> .and is photogaphy representing real, if so then we have >> truly >> disappeared from the face of this earth. and it does not >> matter if >> there is hussain or not, >> >> there is book by Jean Baudilard ' conspiracy of >> art' >> which speaks the contemporary art practices , and that >> makes us feel >> that the whole world is in fact a piece of modern art work >> , and we >> are not there, simple not part of it. >> >> the question of relevance of hussain in our social >> structures is open >> to this sort of criticism, >> >> but not once it lands as amunition in the hands of >> fanatics. >> >> love >> is >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 7:39 AM, Rahul Asthana >> wrote: >> > >> > OK, I think we are almost on the same page now.If by >> educating you mean explaining;then I agree.Hussein might >> explain why his painting was not meant to >> offend,alternatively he may realize how and to what degree >> its offensive, and he may decide its not worth it.It should >> work both ways. >> > I have no stake in whatever is decided,but as >> Kshmendra has mentioned,the emphasis should be on >> understanding and respecting the other,not educating them. >> > >> > --- On Tue, 9/2/08, Yousuf >> wrote: >> > >> > > From: Yousuf >> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and >> Transgressions >> > > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" >> , rahul_capri at yahoo.com >> > > Cc: "Sarai list" >> >> > > Date: Tuesday, September 2, 2008, 11:03 AM >> > > Dear Rahul >> > > Why are you so scared of the word >> "education", >> > > and why are you seeing it in such limited terms. >> If you look >> > > at my last mail, I agreed that your solution #3 >> is good and >> > > I'd be happy if it works. But I emphasized >> about >> > > dialogue as part of the education. Don't you >> think >> > > dialogue and communication between the two >> conflicting >> > > parties would be an integral part of even your >> solution? >> > > >> > > What would you have to say about a >> counselor/psychiatrist >> > > who tries to resolve conflicts say between two >> spouses. >> > > His/her main role is to (a) know each side's >> story, and >> > > then (b) inform each spouse about the other's >> problem >> > > which was actually missing between them due to >> long gaps of >> > > non-communication. Most conflicts in the family >> or society >> > > occur because of the distance we create between >> two parties >> > > - we fear each other, imagine all sorts of >> strange notions >> > > about each other and strengthen the hatred about >> each other. >> > > If only we talked, we could have realized that >> much of our >> > > fears were baseless. >> > > >> > > Hence I am simply talking about creating bridges >> between >> > > two parties through communication. Why can't >> we for >> > > instance have a meeting/workshop between Hussain >> and the >> > > religious fanatics where they tell each >> other's story >> > > and try to explain why each party needs to be >> sensitive to >> > > others' feelings. I know this will not >> entirely remove >> > > either party's deep prejudices, and may lead >> to further >> > > flaring up, but some moderation may also happen. >> But I would >> > > again emphasize that those thoughts and ideas of >> both sides >> > > which are required for the dialogue should at >> least be >> > > available for everyone to see and understand. For >> instance, >> > > we only get to see a lot of hate-propaganda from >> the >> > > religious fanatics against the artist, but never >> see any >> > > effort from Hussain or the art fraternity to >> explain what >> > > this art is all about, and why he makes what he >> makes. The >> > > artist thinks that he/she doesn't need to >> explain >> > > anything. >> > > >> > > I am sorry, but I don't follow terms like >> reductionism, >> > > teleology, deontology, so maybe I am sounding a >> bit rigid to >> > > you. >> > > >> > > Yousuf >> > > >> > > --- On Tue, 9/2/08, Rahul Asthana >> > > wrote: >> > > >> > > > From: Rahul Asthana >> >> > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and >> > > Transgressions >> > > > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" >> > > , ysaeed7 at yahoo.com >> > > > Cc: "Sarai list" >> > > >> > > > Date: Tuesday, September 2, 2008, 2:01 AM >> > > > Dear Yousuf, >> > > > Your argument is what I call reductionist >> (from >> > > > dictionary.com=2.the practice of simplifying >> a complex >> > > idea, >> > > > issue, condition, or the like, esp. to the >> point of >> > > > minimizing, obscuring, or distorting it.). >> > > > When you talk about "millions of issues >> in our >> > > society >> > > > which people used to take with orthodox >> > > attitude",you >> > > > are basically creating a straw man.Many >> orthodox >> > > practices >> > > > have to be given up;we have no difference on >> that. >> > > > When two deontologies collide,we have to >> present a >> > > > teleological argument in favor of one or the >> other.In >> > > other >> > > > words,when two value frameworks reach >> conflicting >> > > position >> > > > on an issue,we have two ways we can approach >> the >> > > > conflict.The one who favors one value >> framework should >> > > > present a comparison of the two frameworks >> in terms of >> > > > social cost-benefit,or,The one who favors >> one value >> > > > framework tries to educate the other one to >> their >> > > system >> > > > just because its "better".Do you >> see the >> > > > difference between the two? >> > > > Now, in an engagement of two groups on >> perceived >> > > social >> > > > cost-benefit,there will be conflicts.Its >> hard to >> > > imagine how >> > > > two groups will have same perception of >> social >> > > > cost-benefit.But at least we would be trying >> to >> > > resolve >> > > > issues within a teleological framework which >> is a lot >> > > better >> > > > than "my way is better than your way >> and you have >> > > to be >> > > > educated to my way". >> > > > >> > > > Regards >> > > > Rahul >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > gate social cost-benefit,and not on the >> basis of what >> > > one >> > > > group thinks is right. >> > > > >> > > > --- On Mon, 9/1/08, Yousuf >> >> > > wrote: >> > > > >> > > > > From: Yousuf >> > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life >> and >> > > > Transgressions >> > > > > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" >> > > > , >> rahul_capri at yahoo.com >> > > > > Cc: "Sarai list" >> > > > >> > > > > Date: Monday, September 1, 2008, 9:12 >> AM >> > > > > Dear Rahul >> > > > > I understand your logic, but I think >> your >> > > alternative >> > > > no.3 >> > > > > is too idealized and utopian to >> achieve, although >> > > I >> > > > would >> > > > > love if it works. Also, it may apply >> only to some >> > > > > situations, not all. For instance, if a >> group of >> > > > people >> > > > > thinks that women are inferior and >> should remain >> > > > inside >> > > > > homes, or that we should ruin the >> environment by >> > > > cutting >> > > > > trees, wasting water and fuel, would >> you allow >> > > them to >> > > > > believe and act on this? You may call >> it my >> > > > condescending >> > > > > attitude, but why is it that we have >> managed to >> > > bring >> > > > an >> > > > > awareness and "reform" today >> about so >> > > many >> > > > > millions of issues in our society which >> people >> > > used to >> > > > take >> > > > > with orthodox attitude. I am talking >> about gender >> > > > equality, >> > > > > environment, education, health issues >> (although >> > > it is >> > > > still >> > > > > not enough). Nobody is born with >> politically >> > > correct >> > > > genes - >> > > > > we all acquire things as we grow. So >> what's >> > > the >> > > > big deal >> > > > > for instance about having arts >> appreciation as >> > > part of >> > > > the >> > > > > school curriculum or TV programmes. >> Should we >> > > allow >> > > > our >> > > > > mainstream media to remain >> condescending then? >> > > Why is >> > > > > television changing the attitude of >> people - why >> > > is >> > > > our >> > > > > society becoming more consumerist and >> aggressive >> > > and >> > > > > prejudiced? >> > > > > Look my condescending solution >> doesn't >> > > involve >> > > > simply >> > > > > education - I am talking about dialogue >> and >> > > awareness, >> > > > and >> > > > > not talking down somebody's throat >> which the >> > > TV >> > > > does >> > > > > today. >> > > > > >> > > > > Yousuf >> > > > > >> > > > > --- On Sun, 8/31/08, Rahul Asthana >> > > > > wrote: >> > > > > >> > > > > > From: Rahul Asthana >> > > >> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of >> Life and >> > > > > Transgressions >> > > > > > To: "Shuddhabrata >> Sengupta" >> > > > > , >> ysaeed7 at yahoo.com >> > > > > > Cc: "Sarai list" >> > > > > >> > > > > > Date: Sunday, August 31, 2008, >> 11:54 PM >> > > > > > Yousuf, >> > > > > > >> > > > > > I think i failed in getting my >> point >> > > across.No >> > > > amount >> > > > > of >> > > > > > "education" would make >> > > Hussein's >> > > > art >> > > > > > appreciated by some,and those who >> are >> > > offended by >> > > > > > Hussein's art are no less >> > > > "educated" >> > > > > than you >> > > > > > or me. >> > > > > > Unless you get rid of your >> condescension >> > > about >> > > > > educating >> > > > > > people about what they should or >> > > shouldn't >> > > > get >> > > > > offended >> > > > > > by,any discussion about solution >> to >> > > conflicts >> > > > like >> > > > > this is a >> > > > > > non-starter. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > I am going to make one last try >> though. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Say there are two groups A and >> B,with >> > > different >> > > > value >> > > > > > systems.A is offended by an act X >> and B is >> > > > > not,apparently >> > > > > > due to their different value >> systems. B >> > > > encourages X >> > > > > and >> > > > > > this increases tensions in a >> society where A >> > > and >> > > > B >> > > > > live >> > > > > > together.Lets see what are the >> possible >> > > > solutions. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > 1.Both A and B tell each other to >> go take a >> > > hike >> > > > and >> > > > > they >> > > > > > would do according to how they >> feel fit. >> > > > > > 2.Both A and B are sure that their >> value >> > > systems >> > > > are >> > > > > > superior and they try to convert >> each other >> > > to >> > > > their >> > > > > own >> > > > > > view points through dialog etc. >> > > > > > 3.Both A and B recognize that >> there are >> > > > irreconcilable >> > > > > > differences in their world >> views.They also >> > > > recognize >> > > > > that >> > > > > > they would respect the differences >> and try >> > > to >> > > > honor >> > > > > them to >> > > > > > the extent possible while also >> trying to >> > > achieve >> > > > their >> > > > > own >> > > > > > goals through whatever means >> possible. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > If liberal fanatics like you will >> keep on >> > > > engaging in >> > > > > > #2,(which in my opinion is even >> worse than >> > > #1 >> > > > because >> > > > > #1 >> > > > > > does not involve condescension) >> that you are >> > > > doing >> > > > > right >> > > > > > now,you will always enable >> religious >> > > fanatics >> > > > from the >> > > > > other >> > > > > > side who will try to convert you >> to their >> > > view >> > > > > point.Why is >> > > > > > their stand less valid than yours? >> > > > > > If you engage in #3 ,you will >> enable >> > > moderates >> > > > from >> > > > > the >> > > > > > other side who will listen to you >> if you >> > > listen >> > > > to >> > > > > them. >> > > > > > The big leap of understanding that >> you need >> > > to >> > > > make is >> > > > > that >> > > > > > there can be two internally >> consistent value >> > > > systems >> > > > > which >> > > > > > will lead to opposing positions on >> many >> > > > issues,and >> > > > > both >> > > > > > these value systems are equally >> valid. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Regards >> > > > > > Rahul >> > > > > > >> > > > > > --- On Sun, 8/31/08, Yousuf >> > > > >> > > > > > wrote: >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > From: Yousuf >> >> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] >> Ways of Life >> > > and >> > > > > > Transgressions >> > > > > > > To: "Shuddhabrata >> Sengupta" >> > > > > > , >> > > rahul_capri at yahoo.com >> > > > > > > Cc: "Sarai list" >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Date: Sunday, August 31, >> 2008, 9:40 AM >> > > > > > > When I mention education, I >> primarily >> > > > include >> > > > > media in >> > > > > > it. >> > > > > > > But the media is careless and >> works >> > > only on >> > > > the >> > > > > > diktats of >> > > > > > > industry and politicians. So >> the prime >> > > > > responsibility >> > > > > > (of >> > > > > > > making sure that their art is >> > > appreciated) >> > > > falls >> > > > > on >> > > > > > the arts >> > > > > > > fraternity itself. At least >> until we >> > > find a >> > > > > better >> > > > > > solution. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > --- On Sat, 8/30/08, Rahul >> Asthana >> > > > > > > >> wrote: >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > From: Rahul Asthana >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: >> [Reader-list] Ways of >> > > Life >> > > > and >> > > > > > > Transgressions >> > > > > > > > To: "Shuddhabrata >> > > Sengupta" >> > > > > > > , >> > > ysaeed7 at yahoo.com >> > > > > > > > Cc: "Sarai >> list" >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Date: Saturday, August >> 30, 2008, >> > > 9:58 >> > > > PM >> > > > > > > > "They have not been >> educated >> > > to >> > > > > appreciate >> > > > > > the >> > > > > > > nuances >> > > > > > > > of the medium or the >> > > message." >> > > > > > > > Yousuf, I am sorry but >> that's >> > > > > > condescending.By the >> > > > > > > same >> > > > > > > > token a religious person >> can say >> > > that >> > > > the >> > > > > artist >> > > > > > has >> > > > > > > not >> > > > > > > > been taught the nuances >> of >> > > religious >> > > > > > sensibilities.My >> > > > > > > point >> > > > > > > > is that if two groups >> having >> > > different >> > > > > values >> > > > > > have to >> > > > > > > > coexist in a >> society,they have to >> > > be >> > > > > tolerant >> > > > > > towards >> > > > > > > each >> > > > > > > > other. >> > > > > > > > I do not advocate any >> limit to the >> > > > freedom >> > > > > of >> > > > > > > > expression,but there >> should not be >> > > > complete >> > > > > > > callousness >> > > > > > > > towards the feelings of >> > > groups.Painters >> > > > like >> > > > > > Hussein >> > > > > > > and >> > > > > > > > other heretics would >> always keep >> > > > producing >> > > > > works >> > > > > > that >> > > > > > > would >> > > > > > > > offend,and perhaps thats >> necessary >> > > > too;but >> > > > > if >> > > > > > some of >> > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > people in the media,and >> I do not >> > > mean >> > > > the >> > > > > media >> > > > > > which >> > > > > > > > actually represents >> these groups, >> > > can >> > > > > understand >> > > > > > and >> > > > > > > voice >> > > > > > > > their feelings,then >> emotions would >> > > > probably >> > > > > not >> > > > > > flare >> > > > > > > up to >> > > > > > > > that extent. >> > > > > > > > That is the middle way. >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 8/30/08, >> Yousuf >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > wrote: >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > From: Yousuf >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: >> [Reader-list] >> > > Ways of >> > > > Life >> > > > > and >> > > > > > > > Transgressions >> > > > > > > > > To: >> "Shuddhabrata >> > > > Sengupta" >> > > > > > > > >> , >> > > > > rahul_capri at yahoo.com >> > > > > > > > > Cc: "Sarai >> list" >> > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > Date: Saturday, >> August 30, >> > > 2008, >> > > > 9:31 >> > > > > PM >> > > > > > > > > Dear Rahul >> > > > > > > > > I had difficulty >> following >> > > your >> > > > first >> > > > > > sentence >> > > > > > > (and a >> > > > > > > > few >> > > > > > > > > others), but yes, >> to put it >> > > in >> > > > simple >> > > > > > language, >> > > > > > > people >> > > > > > > > have >> > > > > > > > > been offended by >> > > Hussain's >> > > > > paintings, >> > > > > > and >> > > > > > > they are >> > > > > > > > not >> > > > > > > > > always at fault. >> They have >> > > not >> > > > been >> > > > > educated >> > > > > > to >> > > > > > > > appreciate >> > > > > > > > > the nuances of the >> medium or >> > > the >> > > > > message. >> > > > > > And the >> > > > > > > art >> > > > > > > > > fraternity >> doesn't have >> > > the >> > > > urge to >> > > > > go >> > > > > > to the >> > > > > > > > people and >> > > > > > > > > explain what they >> do and why >> > > they >> > > > do. >> > > > > The >> > > > > > > politician >> > > > > > > > of >> > > > > > > > > course is too happy >> to cash >> > > in on >> > > > the >> > > > > > ignorance >> > > > > > > of the >> > > > > > > > > public. >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Incidentally, >> countless >> > > > > > provocative/blasphemous >> > > > > > > art or >> > > > > > > > > statements have >> been made in >> > > the >> > > > past >> > > > > but >> > > > > > not all >> > > > > > > of >> > > > > > > > them >> > > > > > > > > led to a public >> outcry. >> > > Almost all >> > > > > known >> > > > > > cases >> > > > > > > where a >> > > > > > > > piece >> > > > > > > > > of art/literature >> has led to >> > > > violence, >> > > > > are >> > > > > > those >> > > > > > > where >> > > > > > > > > somebody (or some >> political >> > > party) >> > > > used >> > > > > them >> > > > > > to >> > > > > > > spread >> > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > flames. In most >> cases, the >> > > > protesters >> > > > > > haven't >> > > > > > > seen >> > > > > > > > or >> > > > > > > > > read what they have >> been >> > > > protesting >> > > > > against. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > So, should the >> artists make >> > > such >> > > >> provocative >> > > > > > > works >> > > > > > > > only for >> > > > > > > > > themselves or their >> closest >> > > > friends, >> > > > > and >> > > > > > never >> > > > > > > allow >> > > > > > > > them to >> > > > > > > > > go public. Or >> should they >> > > (and >> > > > their >> > > > > > > institutions) >> > > > > > > > create an >> > > > > > > > > atmosphere of >> awareness where >> > > the >> > > > > public can >> > > > > > > > appreciate >> > > > > > > > > their art and not >> tear it >> > > apart? I >> > > > > don't >> > > > > > find >> >> > > > > a >> > > > > > > > third >> > > > > > > > > alternative. >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Yousuf >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, >> 8/30/08, Rahul >> > > Asthana >> > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > wrote: >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > From: Rahul >> Asthana >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: >> > > [Reader-list] >> > > > Ways of >> > > > > Life >> > > > > > and >> > > > > > > > > Transgressions >> > > > > > > > > > To: >> ysaeed7 at yahoo.com, >> > > > > > "Shuddhabrata >> > > > > > > > > Sengupta" >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Cc: >> "Sarai >> > > list" >> > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > Date: >> Saturday, August >> > > 30, >> > > > 2008, >> > > > > 8:42 >> > > > > > PM >> > > > > > > > > > Dear Yousuf, >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > I think the >> classic >> > > liberal >> > > > stand >> > > > > of >> > > > > > > reductionist >> > > > > > > > > > >> extrapolation,in which >> > > one >> > > > > develops >> > > > > > certain >> > > > > > > set >> > > > > > > > of >> > > > > > > > > canonical >> > > > > > > > > > principles and >> expects >> > > them >> > > > to >> > > > > govern >> > > > > > all >> > > > > > > > discourse on >> > > > > > > > > a >> > > > > > > > > > certain topic, >> is not >> > > > necessarily >> > > > > > > philosophically >> > > > > > > > > incorrect >> > > > > > > > > > from their >> point of >> > > view,but >> > > > > > insufficient >> > > > > > > and >> > > > > > > > improper >> > > > > > > > > if we >> > > > > > > > > > want to live >> in a >> > > tolerant >> > > > liberal >> > > > > > society.I >> > > > > > > will >> > > > > > > > try >> > > > > > > > > to >> > > > > > > > > > elaborate: >> > > > > > > > > > The point is >> not that >> > > Hussein >> > > > as a >> > > > > > Muslim >> > > > > > > can >> > > > > > > > paint >> > > > > > > > > Hindu >> > > > > > > > > > deities,nude >> or >> > > otherwise or >> > > > > whether >> > > > > > his >> > > > > > > > intention was >> > > > > > > > > to >> > > > > > > > > > insult,or >> not.The point >> > > is >> > > > also >> > > > > not >> > > > > > that the >> > > > > > > his >> > > > > > > > > paintings >> > > > > > > > > > can be >> artistic and >> > > break new >> > > > > grounds >> > > > > > of >> > > > > > > > expression >> > > > > > > > > > etc.Neither is >> it the >> > > point >> > > > that >> > > > > he >> > > > > > should >> > > > > > > have >> > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > freedom >> > > > > > > > > > of expression >> to paint >> > > > whatever he >> > > > > > wants.The >> > > > > > > > point is >> > > > > > > > > also >> > > > > > > > > > not that the >> people who >> > > > attacked >> > > > > him >> > > > > > were >> > > > > > > wrong. >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > The point that >> I have >> > > been >> > > > trying >> > > > > to >> > > > > > make is >> > > > > > > that >> > > > > > > > all >> > > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > above things >> are >> > > true;but >> > > > still a >> > > > > > painting >> > > > > > > that >> > > > > > > > he has >> > > > > > > > > made >> >> > > > > > > > can be >> offensive to many >> > > > > people.Now,the >> > > > > > > classic >> > > > > > > > > reductionist >> > > > > > > > > > line here is >> > > that,offense is >> > > > > > > > subjective.Obviously,we >> > > > > > > > > > can't be >> bothered >> > > about >> > > > every >> > > > > > person who >> > > > > > > > takes >> > > > > > > > > offense >> > > > > > > > > > at any random >> stuff, can >> > > > we?To >> > > > > that I >> > > > > > would >> > > > > > > say, >> > > > > > > > using >> > > > > > > > > our >> > > > > > > > > > own personal >> > > > judgment,depending >> > > > > upon >> > > > > > our >> > > > > > > > interactions >> > > > > > > > > with >> > > > > > > > > > people, we can >> make out >> > > most >> > > > of >> > > > > the >> > > > > > times >> > > > > > > if >> > > > > > > > > something is >> > > > > > > > > > truly >> offensive to a >> > > large >> > > > group >> > > > > of >> > > > > > people >> > > > > > > or >> > > > > > > > not.If >> > > > > > > > > we >> > > > > > > > > > can't,we >> should talk >> > > to >> > > > > > people.IMHO,I >> > > > > > > > don't >> > > > > > > > > think I >> > > > > > > > > > should take >> the easy way >> > > out >> > > > of >> > > > > hiding >> > > > > > > behind the >> > > > > > > > > principles >> > > > > > > > > > of freedom of >> expression >> > > and >> > > > > visual >> > > > > > > metaphors >> > > > > > > > etc.We >> > > > > > > > > should >> > > > > > > > > > always support >> freedom >> > > of >> > > > > > expression,but if >> > > > > > > we >> > > > > > > > can >> > > > > > > > > surmise >> > > > > > > > > > that a >> particular act of >> > > art >> > > > was >> > > > > > done,when >> > > > > > > it was >> > > > > > > > > probably >> > > > > > > > > > apparent that >> it would >> > > hurt >> > > > the >> > > > > > > sensibilities of >> > > > > > > > a >> > > > > > > > > large >> > > > > > > > > > group of >> people,we >> > > should >> > > > call it >> > > > > for >> > > > > > > "bad >> > > > > > > > > taste". >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > If we have >> respect for >> > > and >> > > > engage >> > > > > in >> > > > > > dialog >> > > > > > > with >> > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > moderates of >> groups we >> > > may >> > > > not >> > > > > have to >> > > > > > deal >> > > > > > > with >> > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > extremists. >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Dear Shuddha, >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > I think you >> mentioned >> > > earlier >> > > > how >> > > > > > religious >> > > > > > > > people >> > > > > > > > > offend >> > > > > > > > > > the >> sensitivities of >> > > > > atheists.Could you >> > > > > > > please >> > > > > > > > > elaborate? >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Thanks >> > > > > > > > > > Rahul >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, >> 8/30/08, >> > > > Shuddhabrata >> > > > > > Sengupta >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > wrote: >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > From: >> Shuddhabrata >> > > > Sengupta >> > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > Subject: >> Re: >> > > > [Reader-list] >> > > > > Ways of >> > > > > > Life >> > > > > > > and >> > > > > > > > > > Transgressions >> > > > > > > > > > > To: >> > > ysaeed7 at yahoo.com >> > > > > > > > > > > Cc: >> "Sarai >> > > > list" >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > Date: >> Saturday, >> > > August >> > > > 30, >> > > > > 2008, >> > > > > > 2:44 >> > > > > > > AM >> > > > > > > > > > > Dear >> Yousuf, dear >> > > all, >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > thank you >> very >> > > much, >> > > > Yousuf >> > > > > for >> > > > > > your >> > > > > > > mail. I >> > > > > > > > > really >> > > > > > > > > > > >> appreciate your >> > > > > > > > > > > point of >> drawing >> > > > attention to >> > > > > the >> > > > > > > available >> > > > > > > > > > vocabularies >> of >> > > > > > > > > > > visual >> > > > > > > > > > > >> representation and >> > > the >> > > > way in >> > > > > > which >> > > > > > > they >> > > > > > > > > determine or >> > > > > > > > > > > influence >> the >> > > > > > > > > > > universe >> of visual >> > > > > > repsesentatiation, >> > > > > > > if >> > > > > > > > only to >> > > > > > > > > > underline >> > > > > > > > > > > the fact >> > > > > > > > > > > that no >> visual >> > > artist is >> > > > ever >> > > > > > divorced >> > > > > > > from >> > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > context tat >> > > > > > > > > > > they are >> > > > > > > > > > > born >> into. I have >> > > > nowhere >> > > > > written >> > > > > > > about why >> > > > > > > > > Husain >> > > > > > > > > > does >> > > > > > > > > > > not >> choose >> > > > > > > > > > > to >> represent themes >> > > from >> > > > the >> > > > > > Islamic >> > > > > > > canon, >> > > > > > > > and I >> > > > > > > > > > totally >> > > > > > > > > > > agree >> with >> > > > > > > > > > > you that >> he does >> > > not do >> > > > so >> > > > > because >> > > > > > they >> > > > > > > are >> > > > > > > > not >> > > > > > > > > > available >> > > > > > > > > > > to him in >> > > > > > > > > > > his >> cultural miieu, >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > As for >> apparently >> > > > > transgressive >> > > > > > cases >> > > > > > > like >> > > > > > > > > Husain or >> > > > > > > > > > Dillu >> > > > > > > > > > > Ram >> > > > > > > > > > > Kausari, >> I cannnot >> > > see >> > > > why >> > > > > they >> > > > > > should >> > > > > > > not b >> > > > > > > > > > celebrated. >> > > > > > > > > > > Hindus >> > > > > > > > > > > should >> honour >> > > Husain and >> > > > > Muslims >> > > > > > should >> > > > > > > > honour >> > > > > > > > > Dillu >> > > > > > > > > > Ram. >> > > > > > > > > > > In this >> way >> > > > > > > > > > > they >> would ensure >> > > that >> > > > acts >> > > > > of >> > > > > > > 'road >> > > > > > > > > crossing' >> > > > > > > > > > need >> > > > > > > > > > > not >> necessarily >> > > > > > > > > > > end in >> lethal >> > > accidents, >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > warm >> regards, and >> > > hoping >> > > > for >> > > > > many >> > > > > > more >> > > > > > > road >> > > > > > > > > crossings, >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > Shuddha >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > On >> 29-Aug-08, at >> > > 8:25 >> > > > PM, >> > > > > Yousuf >> > > > > > Saeed >> > > > > > > > wrote: >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > Dear >> Shuddha, >> > > > others >> > > > > > > > > > > > I >> really >> > > appreciate >> > > > your >> > > > > > > highlighting >> > > > > > > > of the >> > > > > > > > > fact >> > > > > > > > > > that >> > > > > > > > > > > >> Hussain's >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> intention may >> > > not >> > > > be of >> > > > > > insulting >> > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > Hindus >> > > > > > > > > by >> > > > > > > > > > > drawing >> the deities >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > in >> the nude or >> > > > > otherwise. I >> > > > > > am not >> > > > > > > a >> > > > > > > > > defender of >> > > > > > > > > > > Hussain, >> but would >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > like >> to put >> > > across >> > > > a few >> > > > > > points. >> > > > > > > Many >> > > > > > > > people >> > > > > > > > > (on >> > > > > > > > > > this >> > > > > > > > > > > list and >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> elsewhere) >> > > have >> > > > pointed >> > > > > out >> > > > > > that >> > > > > > > > Hussain >> > > > > > > > > never >> > > > > > > > > > drew >> > > > > > > > > > > any >> Muslim >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> character >> > > (such as >> > > > the >> > > > > > Prophet) in >> > > > > > > this >> > > > > > > > > manner, >> > > > > > > > > > and >> > > > > > > > > > > therefore >> his >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> intention must >> > > be >> > > > to >> > > > > insult >> > > > > > the >> > > > > > > Hindus. >> > > > > > > > They >> > > > > > > > > also >> > > > > > > > > > say >> > > > > > > > > > > that such >> an >> > > > > > > > > > > > act >> by any >> > > artist >> > > > in a >> > > > > Muslim >> > > > > > > country >> > > > > > > > (like >> > > > > > > > > Saudi >> > > > > > > > > > > Arabia) >> would >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> result in >> > > death >> > > > penalty, >> > > > > and >> > > > > > so >> > > > > > > on. But >> > > > > > > > > maybe >> > > > > > > > > > Hussain >> > > > > > > > > > > did not >> draw >> > > > > > > > > > > > an >> Islamic >> > > > character in >> > > > > an >> > > > > > > > > >> "immodest" >> > > > > > > > > > > posture >> simply >> > > because >> > > > such >> > > > > > > > > > > > an >> image or >> > > icon >> > > > > doesn't >> > > > > > exist >> > > > > > > in the >> > > > > > > > > > Islam's >> > > > > > > > > > > visual >> cultural >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> tradition. If >> > > he >> > > > does >> > > > > it, >> > > > > > then >> > > > > > > that >> > > > > > > > would be >> > > > > > > > > > > >> deliberately >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> provocative >> > > > (although I >> > > > > am >> > > > > > not >> > > > > > > saying >> > > > > > > > it >> > > > > > > > > > shouldn't >> > > > > > > > > > > be done). >> But he >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> could draw a >> > > Hindu >> > > > deity >> > > > > in >> > > > > > the >> > > > > > > nude >> > > > > > > > because >> > > > > > > > > such >> > > > > > > > > > a >> > > > > > > > > > > tradition >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> exists in our >> > > > Indian >> > > > > visual >> > > > > > > culture. I >> > > > > > > > doubt >> > > > > > > > > if >> > > > > > > > > > he >> > > > > > > > > > > avoids >> > > > > > > > > > > > the >> depiction >> > > of >> > > > Muslim >> > > > > > themes >> > > > > > > because >> > > > > > > > he >> > > > > > > > > is >> > > > > > > > > > scared >> > > > > > > > > > > of the >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Islamists. >> > > Maybe he >> > > > > simply >> > > > > > > can't >> > > > > > > > relate >> > > > > > > > > to it >> > > > > > > > > > as >> > > > > > > > > > > an >> Indian. >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > If I >> as an >> > > artist >> > > > cannot >> > > > > > express >> > > > > > > my >> > > > > > > > certain >> > > > > > > > > > feelings >> > > > > > > > > > > in the >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> language that >> > > has >> > > > been >> > > > > taught >> > > > > > to >> > > > > > > be me >> > > > > > > > by my >> > > > > > > > > > parents, >> > > > > > > > > > > and I >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> suddenly >> > > discover a >> > > > new >> > > > > > language >> > > > > > > that >> > > > > > > > allows >> > > > > > > > > me >> > > > > > > > > > to >> > > > > > > > > > > express >> that >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> peculiar >> > > feeling in >> > > > a >> > > > > much >> > > > > > better >> > > > > > > way >> > > > > > > > than >> > > > > > > > > what >> > > > > > > > > > my >> > > > > > > > > > > mother >> tongue >> > > > > > > > > > > > did, >> I would >> > > be >> > > > happy to >> > > > > use >> > > > > > the >> > > > > > > new >> > > > > > > > > language. >> > > > > > > > > > There >> > > > > > > > > > > are >> thousands >> > > > > > > > > > > > of >> poets and >> > > > artists who >> > > > > > found a >> > > > > > > new >> > > > > > > > way of >> > > > > > > > > > expression >> > > > > > > > > > > in a >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> language which >> > > > every one >> > > > > in >> > > > > > their >> > > > > > > midst >> > > > > > > > had >> > > > > > > > > found >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > "inferior" – >> > > > I am >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> talking for >> > > example >> > > > of >> > > > > the >> > > > > > > tradition of >> > > > > > > > > Persian >> > > > > > > > > > poets >> > > > > > > > > > > of South >> Asia >> > > > > > > > > > > > who >> also wrote >> > > > verses in >> > > > > > Hindi or >> > > > > > > > Hinduvi. >> > > > > > > > > While >> > > > > > > > > > poets >> > > > > > > > > > > such as >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Masud Sa'd >> > > > Salman, >> > > > > Amir >> > > > > > > Khusrau, >> > > > > > > > > Abdurrahim >> > > > > > > > > > > >> Khane-khana, >> > > Ghalib, or >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Iqbal became >> > > famous >> > > > for >> > > > > their >> > > > > > > exquisite >> > > > > > > > > verse in >> > > > > > > > > > > Persian, >> their >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> heart pours >> > > out >> > > > better >> > > > > in >> > > > > > their >> > > > > > > > Hinduvi, >> > > > > > > > > Urdu or >> > > > > > > > > > Braj >> > > > > > > > > > > poetry >> where >> > > > > > > > > > > > they >> can come >> > > down >> > > > to >> > > > > the >> > > > > > earth >> > > > > > > from >> > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > lofty >> > > > > > > > > > royal >> > > > > > > > > > > palaces. >> We >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> often say, >> > > > "Unki >> > > > > Hindi >> > > > > > > shayeri >> > > > > > > > mein >> > > > > > > > > mitti ki >> > > > > > > > > > > khushbu >> aati >> > > hai" >> > > > (one >> > > > > > > > > > > > can >> smell the >> > > earth >> > > > in >> > > > > their >> > > > > > > vernacular >> > > > > > > > > poetry). >> > > > > > > > > > And I >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> think Hussain >> > > is >> > > > no >> > > > > > different >> > > > > > > from >> > > > > > > > them. He >> > > > > > > > > > cannot >> > > > > > > > > > > draw an >> Islamic >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> character in >> > > the >> > > > nude >> > > > > because >> > > > > > > it's >> > > > > > > > > probably >> > > > > > > > > > not in >> > > > > > > > > > > his >> palette, or >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> doesn't >> > > touch >> > > > his >> > > > > heart. >> > > > > > (And >> > > > > > > we >> > > > > > > > cannot >> > > > > > > > > force >> > > > > > > > > > him >> > > > > > > > > > > to do it >> to >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> become more >> > > > politically >> > > > > > correct). >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > You >> may say >> > > that a >> > > > lot >> > > > > of >> > > > > > > > semi-pornographic >> > > > > > > > > > scenes >> > > > > > > > > > > have been >> drawn >> > > > > > > > > > > > in >> Mughal or >> > > > Persian >> > > > > > miniatures, >> > > > > > > and he >> > > > > > > > > could >> > > > > > > > > > have >> > > > > > > > > > > followed >> that. >> > > > > > > > > > > > But >> that's >> > > not >> > > > the >> > > > > point. >> > > > > > > Hindu >> > > > > > > > deities >> > > > > > > > > are >> > > > > > > > > > > flexible >> enough for >> > > us >> > > > > > > > > > > > to >> turn them >> > > around >> > > > the >> > > > > way >> > > > > > we >> > > > > > > wish, to >> > > > > > > > > express a >> > > > > > > > > > > certain >> feeling >> > > > > > > > > > > > that >> cannot be >> > > > expressed >> > > > > any >> > > > > > other >> > > > > > > way. >> > > > > > > > So >> > > > > > > > > why >> > > > > > > > > > not >> > > > > > > > > > > >> appreciate and >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> celebrate that >> > > > fact. (I >> > > > > know >> > > > > > such >> > > > > > > a >> > > > > > > > > statement >> > > > > > > > > > from me >> > > > > > > > > > > might >> raise >> > > > > > > > > > > > some >> > > eyebrows). I >> > > > maybe >> > > > > a >> > > > > > Muslim >> > > > > > > but I >> > > > > > > > > appreciate >> > > > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > > fact that >> you >> > > > > > > > > > > > can >> literally >> > > play >> > > > with >> > > > > many >> > > > > > Hindu >> > > > > > > > deities. >> > > > > > > > > Just >> > > > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > > other day >> I >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> heard Pandit >> > > Jasraj >> > > > sing >> > > > > a >> > > > > > khayal >> > > > > > > in >> > > > > > > > which >> > > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > lyrics >> > > > > > > > > > > >> repeatedly >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> referred to >> > > Krishna >> > > > as a >> > > > > chor >> > > > > > > (thief). >> > > > > > > > Does >> > > > > > > > > that >> > > > > > > > > > > insult a >> Hindu? Or >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> would it >> > > insult a >> > > > Hindu >> > > > > if >> > > > > > this >> > > > > > > khayal >> > > > > > > > was >> > > > > > > > > sung >> > > > > > > > > > by >> > > > > > > > > > > Ustad >> Amir Khan? >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> (Incidentally, >> > > a >> > > > large >> > > > > number >> > > > > > of >> > > > > > > > traditional >> > > > > > > > > > Hindu >> > > > > > > > > > > >> devotional >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> lyrics sung in >> > > > classical >> > > > > > music >> > > > > > > have >> > > > > > > > reached >> > > > > > > > > us >> > > > > > > > > > via >> > > > > > > > > > > Muslim >> gharana >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> musicians, and >> > > much >> > > > of >> > > > > > devotional >> > > > > > > Hindu >> > > > > > > > > visual >> > > > > > > > > > > mythology >> has come >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > to >> us via >> > > patwa >> > > >artists >> > > > > of >> > > > > > Bengal >> > > > > > > who >> > > > > > > > are >> > > > > > > > > > > > all >> Muslim. >> > > Can >> > > > > M.F.Hussain >> > > > > > be >> > > > > > > > detached >> > > > > > > > > from >> > > > > > > > > > that >> > > > > > > > > > > >> continuity?) >> > > > > > > > > > > > Much >> of the >> > > popular >> > > > > calendar >> > > > > > and >> > > > > > > poster >> > > > > > > > art >> > > > > > > > > of >> > > > > > > > > > 20th >> > > > > > > > > > > century >> showing >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hindu deities >> > > was >> > > > drawn >> > > > > by an >> > > > > > > artist >> > > > > > > > called >> > > > > > > > > Hasan >> > > > > > > > > > Raza >> > > > > > > > > > > Raja of >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Meerut. And >> > > the >> > > > manner >> > > > > in >> > > > > > which >> > > > > > > most >> > > > > > > > Hindu >> > > > > > > > > > deities are >> > > > > > > > > > > >> visualized >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> today comes >> > > from >> > > > the >> > > > > > pioneering >> > > > > > > work of >> > > > > > > > Raja >> > > > > > > > > Ravi >> > > > > > > > > > > Varma who >> was >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> clearly >> > > inspired by >> > > > > western >> > > > > > style >> > > > > > > of >> > > > > > > > art >> > > > > > > > > where >> > > > > > > > > > human >> > > > > > > > > > > models >> were >> > > > > > > > > > > > used >> to >> > > visualize >> > > > the >> > > > > gods >> > > > > > and >> > > > > > > > goddesses. >> > > > > > > > > So, >> > > > > > > > > > does all >> > > > > > > > > > > this >> insult >> > > > > > > > > > > > the >> Hindus? >> > > And >> > > > what is >> > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > >> "original" >> > > > > > > > > > Hindu >> > > > > > > > > > > way of >> imagining >> > > the >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> deities any >> > > way? >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > I >> liked your >> > > > quoting >> > > > > from >> > > > > > Kausari >> > > > > > > who >> > > > > > > > is >> > > > > > > > > among >> > > > > > > > > > many >> > > > > > > > > > > Hindu >> poets who >> > > > > > > > > > > > have >> > > > written/announced >> > > > > their >> > > > > > > emotive >> > > > > > > > > affiliation >> > > > > > > > > > with >> > > > > > > > > > > Prophet >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Mohammad in >> > > the >> > > > same way >> > > > > as >> > > > > > say >> > > > > > > with >> > > > > > > > > Krishna. I >> > > > > > > > > > doubt >> > > > > > > > > > > if such >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> actions in the >> > > past >> > > > may >> > > > > have >> > > > > > met >> > > > > > > with >> > > > > > > > much >> > > > > > > > > > resistance >> > > > > > > > > > > (as you >> have >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> mentioned) – >> > > such >> > > > > examples >> > > > > > were >> > > > > > > a >> > > > > > > > norm. >> > > > > > > > > There >> > > > > > > > > > are >> > > > > > > > > > > many >> Hindu poets >> > > > > > > > > > > > who >> have >> > > written >> > > > > marsiyas >> > > > > > full of >> > > > > > > > pathos for >> > > > > > > > > Imam >> > > > > > > > > > > >> Hussain's >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> martyrdom, and >> > > many >> > > > > Muslim >> > > > > > poets >> > > > > > > who >> > > > > > > > > composed >> > > > > > > > > > adorable >> > > > > > > > > > > songs for >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Krishna. I >> > > > don't >> > > > > think it >> > > > > > was >> > > > > > > too >> > > > > > > > hard >> > > > > > > > > to >> > > > > > > > > > cross >> > > > > > > > > > > the road >> in those >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> days. So, why >> > > are >> > > > we >> > > > > busy >> > > > > > throwing >> > > > > > > > stones >> > > > > > > > > onto >> > > > > > > > > > each >> > > > > > > > > > > other >> from the >> > > > > > > > > > > > two >> sides of a >> > > > road? I >> > > > > could >> > > > > > > imagine >> > > > > > > > that at >> > > > > > > > > > least an >> > > > > > > > > > > online >> forum >> > > > > > > > > > > > like >> Sarai >> > > could >> > > > act >> > > > > like a >> > > > > > subway >> > > > > > > or a >> > > > > > > > > walk-over >> > > > > > > > > > > bridge to >> cross >> > > > > > > > > > > > the >> busy >> > > highway. >> > > > But >> > > > > > currently it >> > > > > > > > seems >> > > > > > > > > more >> > > > > > > > > > like a >> > > > > > > > > > > >> road-block. >> > > > > > > > > > > > And >> we are all >> > > > paying >> > > > > the >> > > > > > toll. >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Yousuf >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > --- >> On Fri, >> > > > 8/29/08, >> > > > > > Shuddhabrata >> > > > > > > > Sengupta >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > wrote: >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> From: >> > > > Shuddhabrata >> > > > > > Sengupta >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Subject: >> > > > > [Reader-list] >> > > > > > Ways of >> > > > > > > Life >> > > > > > > > and >> > > > > > > > > > > >> Transgressions >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> To: >> > > "Sarai >> > > > > > list" >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Date: >> > > Friday, >> > > > August >> > > > > 29, >> > > > > > 2008, >> > > > > > > 1:31 >> > > > > > > > PM >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Dear All, >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> I have >> > > been >> > > > > intrigued by >> > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > exchange on >> > > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > list >> > > > > > > > > > > of late >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> that has >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> preferred >> > > to >> > > > > jettison the >> > > > > > term >> > > > > > > > > > >> 'religion' >> > > > > > > > > > > and >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> prefer in >> > > its >> > > > stead >> > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > euphimistic >> > > > phrase - >> > > > > > 'ways >> > > > > > > of >> > > > > > > > > life'. >> > > > > > > > > > I am >> > > > > > > > > > > referring >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> to the >> > > exchange >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> between >> > > > Chanchal >> > > > > Malviya >> > > > > > and >> > > > > > > > Jeebesh >> > > > > > > > > Bagchi, >> > > > > > > > > > > arising >> out of >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> the >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> heated >> > > > > correspondence on >> > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > disruption >> > > > > > > > > of a >> > > > > > > > > > small >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> exhibition >> > > > devoted >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> to >> > > M.F.Husain. >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> i am quite >> > > > convinced >> > > > > that >> > > > > > the >> > > > > > > term >> > > > > > > > > > > >> 'religion' >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> which >> > > derives >> > > > from >> > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> latin root >> > > of >> > > > the >> > > > > word >> > > > > > religio >> > > > > > > > (bond) >> > > > > > > > > and >> > > > > > > > > > religare >> > > > > > > > > > > (the >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> verb form >> > > of >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> 'to >> > > > bind') >> > > > > > remains for >> > > > > > > me a >> > > > > > > > > useful >> > > > > > > > > > word to >> > > > > > > > > > > name the >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> act of >> > > > committing >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> oneself in >> > > any >> > > > form. >> > > > > In >> > > > > > this >> > > > > > > sense, >> > > > > > > > > atheists >> > > > > > > > > > and >> > > > > > > > > > > agnostics >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> are just >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> as >> > > religious >> > > > (in >> > > > > their >> > > > > > > commitment >> > > > > > > > to >> > > > > > > > > doubt) >> > > > > > > > > > as are >> > > > > > > > > > > those >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> blessed >> > > with >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> faith. I >> > > would >> > > > > describe >> > > > > > my >> > > > > > > > religious >> > > > > > > > > > commitment as >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > agnosticism - a >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> commitment >> > > to >> > > > doubt >> > > > > > > everything, >> > > > > > > > > (including >> > > > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > > value of >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> doubt) and >> > > a >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> certainty >> > > that >> > > > we >> > > > > cannot >> > > > > > speak >> > > > > > > > certainly >> > > > > > > > > of >> > > > > > > > > > > anything >> at >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> all, >> > > because >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> there are >> > > > always >> > > > > > > counterfactuals, >> > > > > > > > and >> > > > > > > > > > hitherto >> > > > > > > > > > > >> unimagined, >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> or unknown >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > possibilities, >> > > > that >> > > > > goad >> > > > > > us on >> > > >> > > to >> > > > > > > > yet >> > > > > > > > > newer >> > > > > > > > > > > >> possibilities, >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> or to >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> return to >> > > some >> > > > very >> > > > > old >> > > > > > ones. >> > > > > > > This >> > > > > > > > is >> > > > > > > > > just to >> > > > > > > > > > say >> > > > > > > > > > > that it >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> would be a >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> mistake to >> > > > assume, >> > > > > as is >> > > > > > often >> > > > > > > done >> > > > > > > > with >> > > > > > > > > some >> > > > > > > > > > > arrogance >> on >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> the part >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> of the >> > > more >> > > > > pronouncedly >> > > > > > > > > 'faithful', >> > > > > > > > > > that >> > > > > > > > > > > atheists >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> and >> > > agnostics >> > > > have >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> no >> > > > > 'spiritual' >> > > > > > quests. >> > > > > > > They >> > > > > > > > do, >> > > > > > > > > and >> > > > > > > > > > they >> > > > > > > > > > > dont, >> just >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> as those >> > > who >> > > > are >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > ostentatiously >> > > > > > > 'religious' >> > > > > > > > do, >> > > > > > > > > and >> > > > > > > > > > dont, >> > > > > > > > > > > or do >> only >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> in as much >> > > as >> > > > it >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> allows >> > > them to >> > > > burn >> > > > > a few >> > > > > > > churches >> > > > > > > > as >> > > > > > > > > they go >> > > > > > > > > > > questing. >> If >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Hindu >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > fundamentalists >> > > > have >> > > > > > chosen to >> > > > > > > > renounce >> > > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > ties >> > > > > > > > > > > that bind >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> (religio) >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> them to >> > > life, >> > > > who >> > > > > would I >> > > > > > be >> > > > > > > to >> > > > > > > > object, >> > > > > > > > > > because, I >> > > > > > > > > > > am not a >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Hindu. >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> But I have >> > > no >> > > > > quarrel >> > > > > > with the >> > > > > > > term >> > > > > > > > > 'ways >> > > > > > > > > > of >> > > > > > > > > > > >> life'. >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> The more >> > > words >> > > > we >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> have, the >> > > > better. >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> This >> > > discussion >> > > > > arose out >> > > > > > of a >> > > > > > > rage >> > > > > > > > felt >> > > > > > > > > by >> > > > > > > > > > some >> > > > > > > > > > > that a >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> group of >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> zealots >> > > had >> > > > broken >> > > > > and >> > > > > > > disrupted an >> > > > > > > > > > exhibition >> > > > > > > > > > > that >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> featured >> > > some >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> images of >> > > and >> > > > by >> > > > > Husain, >> > > > > > and >> > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > counter >> > > > > > > > > rage >> > > > > > > > > > felt >> > > > > > > > > > > by >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> others >> > > that the >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> zealots >> > > had no >> > > > right >> > > > > to >> > > > > > be >> > > > > > > > criticised >> > > > > > > > > because >> > > > > > > > > > they >> > > > > > > > > > > were >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> acting to >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> protect >> > > the >> > > > honour >> > > > > of the >> > > > > > > Hindu >> > > > > > > > deities >> > > > > > > > > that >> > > > > > > > > > they >> > > > > > > > > > > felt >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Husain had >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> insulted. >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> The second >> > > case >> > > > is >> > > > > as >> > > > > > follows >> > > > > > > - >> > > > > > > > what >> > > > > > > > > right >> > > > > > > > > > has >> > > > > > > > > > > Husain, a >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Muslim to >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> insult >> > > Hindu >> > > > deities >> > > > > by >> > > > > > > portraying >> > > > > > > > them >> > > > > > > > > in a >> > > > > > > > > > > manner >> that is >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> offensive >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> to the >> > > > sentiments of >> > > > > many >> > > > > > > Hindus. >> > > > > > > > > > (Husain's >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > motivations, or >> > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> aesthetic >> > > merit >> > > > of >> > > > > his >> > > > > > images >> > > > > > > are >> > > > > > > > not >> > > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > issue >> > > > > > > > > > > here, >> what >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> is at >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> issue is >> > > the >> > > > insult >> > > > > seen >> > > > > > to >> > > > > > > have >> > > > > > > > > occurred >> > > > > > > > > > when a >> > > > > > > > > > > non-Hindu >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > 'touches' >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> a sacred >> > > Hindu >> > > > icon >> > > > > with >> > > > > > his >> > > > > > > > > > >> 'insulting' >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > imagination. >> > > > Those >> > > > > so >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> enraged, >> > > also >> > > > throw >> > > > > the >> > > > > > > following >> > > > > > > > > challenge, >> > > > > > > > > > has >> > > > > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> opposite >> > > ever >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> occurred? >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> I am not >> > > here >> > > > to >> > > > > make a >> > > > > > case >> > > > > > > for >> > > > > > > > Husain. >> > > > > > > > > (As >> > > > > > > > > > I >> > > > > >> > > > > have said >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> before I >> > > do >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> not have a >> > > very >> > > > high >> > > > > > opinion >> > > > > > > of his >> > > > > > > > work >> > > > > > > > > as >> > > > > > > > > > an >> > > > > > > > > > > artist). >> I >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> am here to >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> make a >> > > case for >> > > > what >> > > > > is >> > > > > > > considered >> > > > > > > > to be >> > > > > > > > > > > >> transgression. No >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> one can be >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> sure when >> > > they >> > > > have >> > > > > > > transgressed. >> > > > > > > > > Because >> > > > > > > > > > > >> transgression can >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> be seen >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> to occur >> > > even >> > > > when >> > > > > the >> > > > > > motives >> > > > > > > of >> > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > person >> > > > > > > > > > > concerned >> are >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> far from >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > transgression. >> > > > > Husain can >> > > > > > say >> > > > > > > in >> > > > > > > > his >> > > > > > > > > defence, >> > > > > > > > > > and >> > > > > > > > > > > indeed >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> has on >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> occasion >> > > said >> > > > that >> > > > > his >> > > > > > > paintings >> > > > > > > > are an >> > > > > > > > > index >> > > > > > > > > > of >> > > > > > > > > > > his >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > appreciation of >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Indic >> > > culture >> > > > and >> > > > > its >> > > > > > > diversity of >> > > > > > > > > > expressions, >> of >> > > > > > > > > > > his >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> closeness >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> (since >> > > early >> > > > > childhood) >> > > > > > to >> > > > > > > forms of >> > > > > > > > > iconic >> > > > > > > > > > imagery >> > > > > > > > > > > in >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> popular >> > > > Hinduism. >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Here his >> > > intent >> > > > is >> > > > > > clearly not >> > > > > > > to >> > > > > > > > > insult, on >> > > > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > > contrary, >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> it is to >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> declare >> > > his >> > > > > appreciation >> > > > > > for >> > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > beauty >> > > > > > > > > of >> > > > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > > >> iconography >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> of popular >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Hinduism, >> > > a >> > > > charge >> > > > > for >> > > > > > which >> > > > > > > he >> > > > > > > > would be >> > > > > > > > > > equally >> > > > > > > > > > > hated by >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> both Hindu >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> as well as >> > > > Muslim >> > > > > > > fundamentalists. >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> It has not >> > > been >> > > > > noticed >> > > > > > that >> > > > > > > no >> > > > > > > > Muslim >> > > > > > > > > > > >> fundamentalist or >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> even >> > > Muslim >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> religious >> > > > figure has >> > > > > come >> > > > > > out >> > > > > > > in >> > > > > > > > defence >> > > > > > > > > of >> > > > > > > > > > > Husain. >> They >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> are in >> > > fact >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> in tacit >> > > > agreement >> > > > > with >> > > > > > their >> > > > > > > Hindu >> > > > > > > > > peers. A >> > > > > > > > > > > Muslim >> making >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> images, >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> and that >> > > too of >> > > > > Hindu >> > > > > > > goddesses, >> > > > > > > > because >> > > > > > > > > he >> > > > > > > > > > is >> > > > > > > > > > > drawn to >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> them, can >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> only be >> > > seen as >> > > > > blasphemy >> > > > > > in >> > > > > > > their >> > > > > > > > eyes. >> > > > > > > > > On >> > > > > > > > > > this, >> > > > > > > > > > > like on >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> so many >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> other >> > > issues, >> > > > Hindu >> > > > > and >> > > > > > Muslim >> > > > > > > > > > >> fundamentalists are >> > > > > > > > > > > in total >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> agreement. >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Let me >> > > come now >> > > > to >> > > > > an >> > > > > > > interesting >> > > > > > > > > > counterfactual >> > > > > > > > > > > argument. >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> I refer to >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> the life >> > > an >> > > > work of >> > > > > a >> > > > > > little >> > > > > > > known >> > > > > > > > late >> > > > > > > > > > nineteenth >> > > > > > > > > > > century >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> and early >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> twentieth >> > > > century >> > > > > Urdu >> > > > > > poet of >> > > > > > > > Delhi >> > > > > > > > > called >> > > > > > > > > > Dillu >> > > > > > > > > > > Ram >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Kausari. >> > > Now as >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> his name >> > > > suggests, >> > > > > Dillu >> > > > > > Ram >> > > > > > > was a >> > > > > > > > > Hindu. The >> > > > > > > > > > > trouble >> is, >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> throughout >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> his life >> > > he >> > > > composed >> > > > > > > deliriously >> > > > > > > > > passionate >> > > > > > > > > > > elegies >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > (na'at) to >> > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Prophet >> > > > Muhammad. >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> One of his >> > > > quatrains >> > > > > went >> > > > > > as >> > > > > > > > follows >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Kuch >> > > 'ishq e >> > > > > Muhammad >> > > > > > mein >> > > > > > > nahin >> > > > > > > > shart >> > > > > > > > > e >> > > > > > > > > > > Musulman! >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Hai >> > > Kausari >> > > > Hindu >> > > > > bhii >> > > > > > > talabgaar e >> > > > > > > > > Muhammad! >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Allah re! >> > > kyaa >> > > > > raunaq e >> > > > > > bazaar >> > > > > > > e >> > > > > > > > > Muhammad >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Ke >> > > Ma'bood e >> > > > Jahan >> > > > > bhi >> > > > > > hai >> > > > > > > > kharidaar e >> > > > > > > > > > Muhammad! >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Being a >> > > Muslim >> > > > is >> > > > > not a >> > > > > > > condition >> > > > > > > >for >> > > > > > > > > loving >> > > > > > > > > > > Muhammad! >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Kausari, >> > > the >> > > > Hindu, >> > > > > is >> > > > > > also a >> > > > > > > > seeker of >> > > > > > > > > > Muhammad! >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> By Allah! >> > > How >> > > > > delightful >> > > > > > is >> > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > bazaar >> > > > >> > > > of >> > > > > > > > > > Muhammad >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> For the >> > > Lord of >> > > > the >> > > > > > Worlds is >> > > > > > > also >> > > > > > > > a >> > > > > > > > > buyer of >> > > > > > > > > > > Muhammad! >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> This kind >> > > of >> > > > > sentiment >> > > > > > shocked >> > > > > > > both >> > > > > > > > > Hindus >> > > > > > > > > > and >> > > > > > > > > > > Muslims. >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Hindus, >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> because >> > > how >> > > > could a >> > > > > Hindu >> > > > > > sing >> > > > > > > what >> > > > > > > > > amounted >> > > > > > > > > > to >> > > > > > > > > > > love >> songs >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> to a >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Muslim >> > > prophet, >> > > > and >> > > > > > Muslims, >> > > > > > > for >> > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > same >> > > > > > > > > > reason. >> > > > > > > > > > > Both felt >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> slighted >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> and >> > > insulted by >> > > > the >> > > > > > > transgressive >> > > > > > > > way in >> > > > > > > > > > which the >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > imagination of >> > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> poet had >> > > > > > 'touched' the >> > > > > > > body >> > > > > > > > of >> > > > > > > > > what >> > > > > > > > > > was >> > > > > > > > > > > sacred >> for >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> one, and >> > > not, >> > > > for >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> the other. >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Another >> > > poem, >> > > > which >> > > > > > proved to >> > > > > > > be >> > > > > > > > even >> > > > > > > > > more >> > > > > > > > > > > >> controversial, >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> went like >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> this - >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > Rahmatulilalamin kay >> > > > > > Hashar >> > > > > > > mein >> > > > > > > > > maana' >> > > > > > > > > > khulay >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Khalq >> > > saari >> > > > Shaafa e >> > > > > Roz >> > > > > > e >> > > > > > > Jaza kay >> > > > > > > > > saath hai >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Laykay >> > > Dillu >> > > > Raam ko >> > > > > > jannat >> > > > > > > mein >> > > > > > > > jab >> > > > > > > > > Hazrat >> > > > > > > > > > gaye >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Ma'loom >> > > huwa >> > > > kay >> > > > > Hindu >> > > > > > bhi >> > > > > > > > Mahboob e >> > > > > > > > > Khuda >> > > > > > > > > > kay >> > > > > > > > > > > saath >> hai! >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> The >> > > meaning of >> > > > > "Mercy >> > > > > > unto >> > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > Worlds" >> > > > > > > > > > became >> > > > > > > > > > > apparent >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> on >> > > Judgement >> > > > Day: >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> The whole >> > > > creation >> > > > > is >> > > > > > with the >> > > > > > > > > Intercessor of >> > > >> > > > > > The >> > > > > > > > > > > Day of >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Acquittal >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> When the >> > > > Prophet >> > > > > took >> > > > > > Dillu >> > > > > > > Ram >> > > > > > > > with him >> > > > > > > > > into >> > > > > > > > > > > Paradise >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> It was >> > > known >> > > > that >> > > > > this >> > > > > > Hindu >> > > > > > > too is >> > > > > > > > with >> > > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > > Beloved >> of >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> God! >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> This poem, >> > > > > especially >> > > > > > > scandalized >> > > > > > > > Muslim >> > > > > > > > > > > >> orthodoxy, because >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> it dared >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> to suggest >> > > that >> > > > the >> > > > > > prophet >> > > > > > > himself >> > > > > > > > > would >> > > > > > > > > > > intercede >> on >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> behalf of >> > > an >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> unbeliever >> > > on >> > > > the >> > > > > day of >> > > > > > > judgement. >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> It is >> > > > interesting to >> > > > > note >> > > > > > that >> > > > > > > > Dillu Ram >> > > > > > > > > > never >> > > > > > > > > > > became a >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Muslim, at >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> least not >> > > in >> > > > his >> > > > > > lifetime. An >> > > > > > > > article in >> > > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > > >> interesting >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> web portal >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Chowk >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > http://www.chowk.com/articles/12692 by >> > > > > > > > > > one >> > > > > > > > > > > Asif >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Naqshbandi >> > > says >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> "It >> > > is >> > > > also >> > > > > said >> > > > > > that >> > > > > > > Dillu >> > > > > > > > Ram, >> > > > > > > > > > delirious >> > > > > > > > > > > with his >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> love, >> > > would >> > > > > > > > > >> >> >> sometimes >> > > stand >> > > > in >> > > > > the >> > > > > > middle >> > > > > > > of >> > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > bazaar >> > > > > > > > > > in >> > > > > > > > > > > Delhi, >> put >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> chains >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> around his >> > > neck >> > > > and >> > > > > feet >> > > > > > and >> > > > > > > shout >> > > > > > > > at >> > > > > > > > > the top >> > > > > > > > > > of >> > > > > > > > > > > his voice >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> to all >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > passers-by, >> > > > > "Muhammad! >> > > > > > > Muhammad! >> > > > > > > > > Muhammad! >> > > > > > > > > > Yes! >> > > > > > > > > > > Muhammad >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> is the >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Beloved of >> > > God! >> > > > > Muhammad >> > > > > > is >> > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > first >> > > > > > > > > and >> > > > > > > > > > only >> > > > > > > > > > > Beloved >> of >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> God! If >> > > God >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> loves you, >> > > He >> > > > loves >> > > > > you >> > > > > > > because of >> > > > > > > > His >> > > > > > > > > > Beloved!" >> > > > > > > > > > > Some >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> people >> > > even >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> stoned him >> > > and >> > > > he >> > > > > would >> > > > > > often >> > > > > > > come >> > > > > > > > home >> > > > > > > > > > covered in >> > > > > > > > > > > blood >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> but he was >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> totally >> > > lost in >> > > > his >> > > > > love >> > > > > > of >> > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > Prophet >> > > > > > > > > > (peace and >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> blessings >> > > be >> > > > upon >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > him!)" >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> There is >> > > an >> > > > > apocryphal >> > > > > > story >> > > > > > > of how >> > > > > > > > on >> > > > > > > > > his >> > > > > > > > > > > deathbed >> Dillu >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Ram >> > > Kausari >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> had a >> > > vision of >> > > > the >> > > > > > Prophet >> > > > > > > > himself, who >> > > > > > > > > came >> > > > > > > > > > to >> > > > > > > > > > > him, and >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> that he >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> read the >> > > Kalima >> > > > with >> > > > > him. >> > > > > > But >> > > > > > > as >> > > > > > > > this >> > > > > > > > > vision >> > > > > > > > > > is >> > > > > > > > > > > reported >> to >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> have >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> appeared >> > > only >> > > > to >> > > > > him, as >> > > > > > he >> > > > > > > lay >> > > > > > > > dying, >> > > > > > > > > and as >> > > > > > > > > > he >> > > > > > > > > > > is no >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> longer >> > > with us >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> to either >> > > > confirm or >> > > > > deny >> > > > > > this >> > > > > > > > deathbed >> > > > > > > >> > > >> conversion, we can >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> only >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> surmise >> > > that it >> > > > was >> > > > > a >> > > > > > > generous, but >> > > > > > > > > somewhat >> > > > > > > > > > > >> disingenuous >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> method of >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> having >> > > Dillu >> > > > > Ram's >> > > > > > > somewhat >> > > > > > > > > unorthodox >> > > > > > > > > > Muslim >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> apologists >> > > > claim him >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> for >> > > themselves. >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> As far as >> > > we >> > > > are >> > > > > > concerned, >> > > > > > > Dillu >> > > > > > > > Ram >> > > > > > > > > > Kausari, >> > > > > > > > > > > caused >> grave >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> offence, >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> by his >> > > love for >> > > > the >> > > > > > Prophet, >> > > > > > > both >> > > > > > > > to >> > > > > > > > > Hindu as >> > > > > > > > > > well >> > > > > > > > > > > as to >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Muslim >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> zealots, >> > > as >> > > > long as >> > > > > he >> > > > > > lived. >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> If, the >> > > things >> > > > we >> > > > > call >> > > > > > > religions >> > > > > > > > are >> > > > > > > > > > 'ways of >> > > > > > > > > > > life' >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> then we >> > > can >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> always >> > > > determine for >> > > > > > ourselves >> > > > > > > > whether >> > > > > > > > > we >> > > > > > > > > > want to >> > > > > > > > > > > walk on a >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> one way >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> street >> > > that >> > > > runs >> > > > > into a >> > > > > > dead >> > > > > > > end, >> > > > > > > > or to >> > > > > > > > > cross >> > > > > > > > > > many >> > > > > > > > > > > paths, >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> walking >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> down one >> > > way, >> > > > for >> > > > > one >> > > > > > purpose, >> > > > > > > down >> > > > > > > > > another >> > > > > > > > > > way >> > > > > > > > > > > for >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> another, >> > > and >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> sometimes >> > > just >> > > > > standing >> > > > > > in >> > > > > > > between >> > > > > > > > > paths, >> > > > > > > > > > figuring >> > > > > > > > > > > out our >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> journey, >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> as we go >> > > about >> > > > our >> > > > > lives. >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> I find >> > > cases >> > > > like >> > > > > Husain >> > > > > > and >> > > > > > > Dillu >> > > > > > > > Ram >> > > > > > > > > > Kausari >> > > > > > > > > > > >> interesting >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> not >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> becauseof >> > > what >> > > > they >> > > > > > paint of >> > > > > > > what >> > > > > > > > they >> > > > > > > > > say, >> > > > > > > > > > but >> > > > > > > > > > > because >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> they seem >> > > to >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> cause such >> > > > prolonged >> > > > > > traffic >> > > > > > > jams >> > > > > > > > on the >> > > > > > > > > > 'ways >> > > > > > > > > > > of >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> life'. >> > > And >> > > > all >> > > > > they >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> were doing >> > > was >> > > > > crossing >> > > > > > the >> > > > > > > road. >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> thanks and >> > > > regards, >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Shuddha >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> ----- >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > Shuddhabrata >> > > > > Sengupta >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > >> _________________________________________ >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > reader-list: an >> > > > open >> > > > > > > discussion >> > > > > > > > list on >> > > > > > > > > media >> > > > > > > > > > and >> > > > > > > > > > > the city. >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> Critiques >> > > & >> > > > > > Collaborations >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> To >> > > subscribe: >> > > > send >> > > > > an >> > > > > > email to >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net >> > > > > > > with >> > > > > > > > > subscribe >> > > > > > > > > > in >> > > > > > > > > > > the >> subject >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> header. >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> To >> > > unsubscribe: >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> List >> > > archive: >> > > > > > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > _________________________________________ >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> reader-list: >> > > an >> > > > open >> > > > > > discussion >> > > > > > > list on >> > > > > > > > > media and >> > > > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > > city. >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Critiques >> > > & >> > > > > > Collaborations >> > > > > > > > > > > > To >> subscribe: >> > > send >> > > > an >> > > > > email >> > > > > > to >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net >> > > > > with >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> subscribe in >> > > the >> > > > subject >> > > > > > header. >> > > > > > > > > > > > To >> > > unsubscribe: >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > > > > > > > > > > List >> archive: >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> Shuddhabrata >> > > Sengupta >> > > > > > > > > > > The Sarai >> Programme >> > > at >> > > > CSDS >> > > > > > > > > > > Raqs >> Media >> > > Collective >> > > > > > > > > > > >> shuddha at sarai.net >> > > > > > > > > > > >> www.sarai.net >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > www.raqsmediacollective.net >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > _________________________________________ >> > > > > > > > > > > >> reader-list: an >> > > open >> > > > > discussion >> > > > > > list on >> > > > > > > > media and >> > > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > city. >> > > > > > > > > > > Critiques >> & >> > > > > Collaborations >> > > > > > > > > > > To >> subscribe: send >> > > an >> > > > email >> > > > > to >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net >> > > > > with >> > > > > > > subscribe >> > > > > > > > in >> > > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > subject >> > > > > > > > > > > header. >> > > > > > > > > > > To >> unsubscribe: >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > > > > > > > > > List >> archive: >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> >> > >> > >> > >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the >> city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject >> header. >> > To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject >> header. >> To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Fri Sep 5 10:03:22 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 10:33:22 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Greenpoint, you're going to Greenpoint Message-ID: Words Fall Out of My Head by Kevin Kinsella Where the mind is without fear and the head is held high Where knowledge is free Where the world has not been broken up into fragments By narrow domestic walls Where words come out from the depth of truth -- Rabindranath Tagore "Greenpoint!" I didn't say it, the cabbie did. I had just hailed a taxi on Ninth Avenue and Twenty-Third Street and before I could follow through with "I'm going to--," the man behind the wheel finished my thought. "Excuse me?" "You want to go to Greenpoint--in Brooklyn!" "Yes. But how did you know?" "When I saw you flagging me, I said to myself, "Ahmed, this guy wants to go to Greenpoint!'" He was excited. His voice was raised and he smacked the steering wheel with delight. He was obviously proud of himself. It was as if he put all his money on guessing my destination and his bet had paid off handsomely. "That's amazing," I said, truly amazed. "What's my tell?" "Your 'tell'?" "Yes. What gave me away?" "Oh! Well, sir, you look like an artist of moderate success, so I thought Brooklyn--but not Williamsburg. You look too successful for that, but not Manhattan successful. So I said to myself, "He's young, not quite established, but he's on his way. Definitely Greenpoint! You are an artist, aren't you, sir?" "Well, I'm a writer." "See! What do you think of that?" "Amazing. But I wouldn't consider myself 'moderately successful,' but I try--" "Wait! Now, what do you think of that," he nodded toward two young women on the corner of Waverly Place and Broadway. It was mid-July, so they were, of course, wearing more or less nothing at all. But they were very young, perhaps eighteen or nineteen years old. I took a neutral path, "I'd say they're N.Y.U. students." "Bah! That's too easy! I'm talking about their bodies!" He smacked his lips with the same delight he had exhibited upon guessing my destination. "Oh, Niiiiccce." "I see a lot of that driving around here." "I bet," I said and quickly changed the subject. "You know, about a month back, I was attacked in a cab." "Attacked?! By who, the driver?" "No, a drunk Irishman jumped in the car and, not knowing what else to do, punched me in the face." He grew very serious. "What did the driver do?" "He came to my rescue and fought him off. He was an Uzbek--" "Well, an Uzbek. They're tough! But it was his duty to protect you! I'm from Bangladesh and I would do the same! "I appreciate that." The ride and conversation continued in much the same fashion as we proceeded to the Williamsburg Bridge. I learned that Ahmed lived in Patterson, New Jersey, and that he had a degree in engineering, but he enjoyed driving a cab, going so far as to suggest that every man should be made to drive a cab for two years so as to better understand life, "especially if he wanted to be an artist." I asked him if he knew William Carlos Williams's epic poem "Patterson." He didn't, but he would look it up. Then he asked, "Listen, do you know the writings of Rabindranath Tagore?" "Of course! He was a great poet." "My god! How did you know that?" "I studied literature in school, mostly Russian and American but--" "Russian? Why Russian?" "Just curious, I guess." We had just exited the Brooklyn Queens Expressway when he pulled over at a Mobil station, switched off the meter, and handed me a small, yellow notebook and a stub of a pencil. "But this isn't my stop." "Sir, would you please write down your five favorite poets? I wish to make a study of them." I jotted down the first names that came to mind: Osip Mandelshtam, Sasha Chernyi, Vladimir Mayakovsky, Andrei Voznesensky, and Marina Tsvetaeva. "Now, write your name at the bottom and then sign it, please." "Sign it? Why?" "I want your autograph." "My autograph? But why?" "Because, one day, I have no doubt that you will be very famous, and I will have this page as a memory of you. Your penmanship is terrible!" "Wow, you have more faith in me than my mother!" I said, truly touched, if embarrassed. After all, all that I had told him was that I had been beaten in a cab by an Irishman and that I enjoyed Russian poetry--and my penmanship is indeed terrible. "Ah, what do mothers know? Listen, I wanted to be a writer but my English is terrible." "You're English is fantastic," I assured him. It was excellent. "No. Words fall out of my head. I can't remember them." "I'm sure you must have hundreds of stories after driving this cab." "Oh, I do! But I can't write them down in English." "What about in Bangladeshi?" "Who reads Bangladeshi? This is my country now." "Well, I think you'd make a great story teller. Now give me your autograph." He laughed and signed a page in his notebook and handed it to me. "Ahmed Paloub!" He shook my hand enthusiastically and pulled out of the Mobil station parking lot, but not before turning the meter back on. About the author: Kevin Kinsella is a writer and translator living in Brooklyn. Most recently, his work has appeared in Identity Theory and Yankee Pot Roast. His translation of Osip Mandelshtam's Tristia is forthcoming from Green Integer Books in the Fall. From justjunaid at gmail.com Fri Sep 5 11:47:47 2008 From: justjunaid at gmail.com (Junaid) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 11:47:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Killing Kashmiris by Comparison Message-ID: The debate "Nationalism vs. Separatism" on NDTV last week looked promising in the beginning, because for once the host, Barkha Dutt, keeping aside her usual national-security mindset, began by asking some pertinent questions, and the academic voices in the panel set the tenor of the debate right. Given, however, NDTV's habit of pulling together a big crowd of relevant and irrelevant speakers, the debate lost track and sank into a pointless and an all-too-familiar noise. This noise, let it be said, works perfectly well for Indian establishment because it gives them a chance to say, "Look, we give 'em an opportunity to speak; what a great democracy we are!", and yet Kashmiris, as inarticulate as they are, come off sounding tired and tedious; their voices lost in the din. Sunil Khilnani, who is a US-based academic, put the question right where it must. The trouble is with the idea of India itself, in the way it seeks to run roughshod over different identities and affiliations with its singular, homogenous Indian identity. The point, in fact, goes even further, one which Khilnani did not (could not get a chance to) speak about. The real problem is the twin construction of India and of Hinduism as organic wholes—territorial consolidation of one, and the 'semiticization' of the other—with the former acting as the sacred space where the latter, the sacred community, must act itself out. That there was nothing called "India" or "Hinduism" before the Brahmanical elite and their British colonial masters drew from each other, entirely in self-interest, to engineer these territorial and cultural monoliths, has not been in much popular discussion. Both concepts are so naturalized and consecrated in public consciousness that questioning them is tantamount to blasphemy. In its present shape India is actually an empire which is masquerading as a modern state. The Indian rhetoric of "secular nationalism" has acted as a liberal cover in international fora for a swelling Hindu *imperium*, which was territorially achieved in 1947; Indian elite has gratefully allowed the use, and continuous manufacture, of a Hindu civilizational self-identity to justify the empire. Khilnani spoke only a little about the idea of India; he did not stretch his argument to reflect on how the Hindu consciousness underlines the idea of Indian nationalism; yet even the preliminary remark that there are a number of nationalisms jostling for recognition within the territorial space of the Indian state is appreciable. It, at least, gave a lie to the binary of the show's name: "Nationalism" vs. "Separatism". To give due recognition to Kashmiri nationalism has been unthinkable in India, so they call it by other names: separatism, terrorism, extremism, and* pro-Pakistanism*. In an earlier show, on the same TV channel, Swapan Dasgupta, a rightwing columnist for The Pioneer, in fact, criticized the host of the show for allegedly affording a *moral*-equivalence to "Kashmiri separatists" on par the "Jammu nationalists" (the host was in no way doing that). No one asked Dasgupta as to why Indian nationalism should be a touchstone of morality. But this becomes easier to explain once we realize how Indian nationalism has become akin to a religious faith and India a god worthy of worship. It is important here to reflect briefly upon the original issue of the *Amarnath Yatra* to illustrate the point about *Indian nationalism as a religious faith in the service of the Hindu empire*. Let me not speak of how India's political elite goaded, duped, threatened, and forced the peoples of different regions of British India and the princely states to merge with India; it was the same process through which Kashmir was *annexed*. Let me not speak, too, of how *most* people of the subcontinent that were called "We, the People of India" had virtually no say in the formation of what was called the "Union". Let me just say that Nehru inherited an empire from the British, and he wanted to consolidate his spoils by making it look like a state. Not for nothing did he stand atop the Red Fort (a symbol of the Mughal empire), on August 16, 1947, with a flag that no longer had Gandhi's *Charkha*, but Ashoka's *Chakra* (a symbol of the Mauryan empire)—an act to declare continuity with past empires of the subcontinent. Nehru was touted as a secular democrat, but one can find plenty of evidence to show how he gave in to the inexorable march of the Hindu nationalists, many of whom decked his own cabinet. The *rebuilding* of the Somnath temple, to assuage the feelings of the Hindu nation "*for until then they would not think that the real freedom had come" *(the words of Vallabhbhai Patel), was just a starter. Hindu nationalism, which ran amok over, what Ashis Nandy has called "the little cultures of Hinduism", actually came in handy in the drive to turn the empire into a state. Hindu pilgrimages were boosted to this end; new places to worship were found and given nationalistic appeal. Issues like Ram's birthplace, and in recent times 'Hanuman's bridge to Lanka' (the Sethusamudaram) were made national issues to rally a fictitious nation around fictitious symbols. In short, a sacred geography for Hindus was outlined where it did not exist. India became synonymous with *Bharat Mata*, the territorial Hindu deity to be worshipped through *deshbhakhti*. Kashmir, which is called "the secular crown of India" without any hint of shame or irony, was actually imagined as "the crown of *Bharat Mata*", and only so because the crown of the bejeweled image of Bharat Mata, often juxtaposed against the map of India, was where Kashmir was. Kashmir in the same vein also became the *atoot ang* (an unbreakable body-part) of the anthropomorphic goddess Mother India. The Amarnath issue stems from here. By bringing in millions of Hindus from across India, facilitating their travel, increasing the number of pilgrimage months, and trying to create permanent bases for them, the state seeks to firmly place Kashmir within the Hindu imagination, as another point on the sacred map of *Bharat Mata*. By doing so, Kashmir ceases to be the land of Kashmiris, but becomes an abode of *Baba Bole Nath*. The consolidation of this vision, along with parallel efforts to invent ancient Kashmiri links to India (read the debates on the Institute of Kashmir Studies), in effect seeks to integrate Kashmir with India in its Hindu sense. What else can explain the comical demand of Jammu Hindus that their lost honour could be regained only if Kashmiri land is given to them (perhaps the entire Kashmir should be given to them in lieu of their lost Dogra honour!), and what else can explain the whole of India, the state *and* the nation, rallying behind Jammu Hindus? Despite the spin Indian strategists gave the recent protests that they are an issue between Jammuites and Kashmiris (remember the monstrous lie about discrimination), or however much space the Indian media gives protests in Jammu as compared to the mammoth pro-Independence rallies in Kashmir, the fact of the matter remains, it is India, in its true Hindu colours, that is strutting in front of the powerless Kashmiri nation. I, for one, was not a wee bit surprised to see the saffron Hindu flags getting replaced by Indian flags in Hindu protests in Jammu, and chants of "*Bam Bam Bole*" and "*Bharat Mata ki Jai*" being raised together. I am not surprised to see Muslim Kashmiris getting killed by the dozen in protest marches or massive military clampdowns on peaceful rallies, or bullet injuries sustained by thousands of Kashmiris—many in India (like Tavleen Singh) wonder why the government isn't actually pushing Kashmiris, sans Kashmir, into Pakistan. Marches in Jammu, by comparison, look like a party, what with soldiers standing around for photo-ops. No one has been killed in Jammu city in any kind of police action, even though many protestors went on a rampage, and attacked, injured and forced out many Muslims of the region. Despite the easy protests in Jammu, the government looked desperate to talk to the Amarnath Sangharsh Samiti, and scrambled a committee comprising a Kashmiri Pandit and a few Jammu Hindu bureaucrats. The "talks", which looked like a family affair, ended with government respectfully and expectedly giving Kashmiri land to the Amarnath Shrine Board for exclusive use for three months each year (for the only months the land could be used anyway). The government, shamelessly, put out advertisements suggesting it consulted political parties and the civil society of Kashmir before stealing their land; one wonders when, during its brutal clampdowns and large-scale arrests, did government find time to consult Kashmiris? Or, is Farooq Abdullah again the sole spokesman of Kashmiris? This brings us back to the NDTV debate and the very intriguing answer that an ex-military person (one of those irrelevant speakers on the debate on nationalism) gave to a question from the audience as to why the army kills so many Kashmiris. His answer: Kashmiris get killed because they happen to be at *the scene of action*. How can you argue with such a reply? One might say that perhaps Kashmiris get killed because the action happens on them, that their bodies *are* the scenes of action. His answer, in any case, derailed the debate, an attempt which Mani Aiyar of the Indian National Congress was also making by trying to take the argument away from Kashmir toward the "North-east" (I put Northeast in apostrophes because this description links it cartographically to India, when I think the region is closer to southeast Asia). Aiyar's insistence on talking about *other*places is not different from all those noises with which Kashmiris are silenced by drawing contrasts to violence in other places: "so many get killed in Bihar", "so many rapes happen in Delhi", what are you Kashmiris whining about? (It is a separate matter that nationalist Indians inadvertently, thus, equate their state with criminals of Bihar and rapists of Delhi).Though issues in Nagaland, Manipur, etc. are similar to Kashmir, in the sense that they too emerge from the rather predatory "idea of India", but Aiyar was using it to suggest, rather bald-facedly, that there are other people demanding independence, what are you Kashmiris whining about. Let us call it, for the sake of a better phrase, killing (occupying) Kashmiris by comparison. It is also time we put to rest the phrase "Autonomy". Kashmiris don't want autonomy. Even National Conference, its original votary, does not look enthusiastic about the word any longer after its much-fêted proposal was consigned to the dustbin in Delhi without even a discussion. The point is Kashmir *had* autonomy; that is where India started with Kashmir. When the NC says they want to go back to the pre-1953 status, it automatically means that Kashmiris were there once. For all these years India has slowly gnawed it into shreds. Going back to that political status will mean trusting India over something of which it has proved totally untrustworthy. Who wants to give India another try for another 62 years? Perhaps, the NC? Aiyar, at his noisy best, kept saying *ad nauseam*, that the Kashmiri "separatists" should participate in elections to prove their representative character, forgetting in the process an entire ignominious history of rigged elections in Kashmir. Those "mainstream" parties that India sees as representing Kashmiris cannot, by their own admission, bring so many Kashmiris out on the streets as pro-Independence leaders have in Kashmir over the last many years. And this is despite the presence of 700 thousand Indian soldiers to muzzle Kashmiris. If one sixth of the Kashmiri nation is out on the streets on a given day demanding Independence, one can imagine the level of support and endorsement the "separatists" command. How many people joined the Quit India marches at the height of India's independence struggle? A lakh? Two? India says Kashmiris are confused; that they don't know what they want. India describes the *need* for Kashmir's freedom as an *aspiration*, a Kashmiri desire. Kashmiris, however, are talking to them as straight as possible. When a million Kashmiri voices rose together in August 2008, they told India something quite uncomplicated: leave. ** From info at karmayog.org Thu Sep 4 16:55:33 2008 From: info at karmayog.org (info at karmayog.org) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 16:55:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Bihar floods -- is your org / ngo operating there? Message-ID: <7ED8FA41CAA045BDA97B3E53E3BE129B@C20525105822> If your NGO or organisation is working in Bihar for Flood Relief, please email us details for circulation. Name of Organisation: Address: Phone No. Fax: Email: Website: Head of Organisation: Designation: Area of operation in Bihar: (names of villages/ relief camps/ districts) Focus of work: List of materials/ services needed: Collection points: Any other information: Details will be put up in www.karmayog.org/biharfloods and also forwarded to other relevant organisations. Thanks Vinay www.karmayog.org -- creating caring connections From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Thu Sep 4 14:39:27 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 14:39:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions In-Reply-To: <47e122a70809031030l8c80ad2p2699cebbeb999893@mail.gmail.com> References: <47e122a70809030644g483a5b2en985bbcd466c44c9b@mail.gmail.com> <319517.61062.qm@web51407.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <47e122a70809031030l8c80ad2p2699cebbeb999893@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0809040209x36039c0fjde7275560b7eb74a@mail.gmail.com> A few thoughts on an interesting discussion. One term I think that has remained unexamined in this discussion is "hurt" or "sentiment". By this I mean not an assessment of whether that hurt is justified, valid etc, who is to decide whether this offends or not, whether this is offensive or not, the relative self-sufficiency of value systems and speaking across them. But the inherent value of hurt as a positive force in itself. Let me try and explain what I mean. Why is "hurt sentiment" a bad thing in itself? Can having one's sentiments hurt, sometimes quite badly, not be a positive force? Might it not impell me to re-think, or think, about my sentiments in a manner that is creative? Maybe those sentiments are better discarded. Maybe my outrage alerts me to a violence I have been commiting without realising it. Maybe if more people's sentiments were outraged a little more forcefully, then we would be living in a far more democratic and tolerant world. Further, I do not see why only religious communities have a monopoly on sentiments which can then be hurt. As a feminist, my sentiments are assaulted on a routine and regular basis. As someone who believes in a version of social justice and equality, once articulated by, but not only by, Marx for instance, my feelings are continually trampled over. As someone who believes in a secular vision, the discussions on this list offend me everyday. However i do not see this being taken very seriously. And it needn't, that is the point. It is up to me to alchemize this outrage, hurt, sadness in a manner that enables me to live and act in the world. This is actually how we live our lives generally. My mother, or father, or lover, or friend might say something that hurts me terribly. Not always is this clarified, discussed, put in its right perspective. All our lives are all littered with silent archives of hurts we have never expressed. There is no heroic moment in which resolution is sought for hurts. And no one can do this for anyone... The recent Vogue advertisements doing the rounds, around which there has been some discussion on this list, have hurt the sentiments of many people. A few years ago another set of advertisements for brand equity in which two tribal women are shown discussing the tans they have got in Monte Carlo to an accompanying snide and contemptous copy which said something about how advertisers need to accurately reach their consumers, also outraged many of us. Having thought about this, I realised that though both the Vogue ads and the brand equity ads trouble me, they do so in different ways. The Vogue ads can be read in one of many ways - that it posits a horizon of desire that is unachievable for the people it uses for the ad. In some sense then the frisson of the ad derives from the discrepancy in what is desired and what is possible. Further it assumes that their horizon of desire will follow the trajectory laid out by Vogue. But most interesting to me is that both Vogue and the critics work with a fixed definition of poverty in the first place, and certain trajectory of the direction a life can take. The second set of ads function on precisely the opposite principle. Rather than positing an eventual horizon of desire, they deem a present life as failed, and urges us to recognise its failure. It presumes and makes me complicit in a social consensus in which we can use languages in a manner as if we are all agreed on the terms in operation. Can you see the difference in both ads? They both trouble me deeply, but they trouble me in different ways. How is this at all useful, or valuable? I think it is. I think to be able to carefully work through how and why and in what ways something arrives to me and what it disturbs is a critical thing, if we are to fashion any sort of language to deal with the violence of the present. with regards Aarti On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 11:00 PM, inder salim wrote: > dear yousuf > > thanks for response. > > no i dont agree that people are killing each other because Hussain > painted this or that, People want to kill people and there is always > an excuse available. We will always not blame people for that because > people have ceased to be people with their existential choice to be ' > being-in-itself'. Prime symbols of our society have perhaps > cultivated bad tastes because of a deep bourgiouse-captilist-fascist > leanings. We are indeed in a deep mess. For example, Sudhir Kakkar > talks about how unresolved sexuality has a deep relationship with > violence. Now who is the culprit. At least Artists are trying to heal > themselves. let them, even if people are not healed... > > about what is good to society ? Stalin's USSR did this mistake and > killed lot of intellectuals poets and artists, Theortically what, > poets are artists were doing at time had little relevance to the times > ' of bolshivik ' but in the end we can see how wrong was that policy > of actually believing what is good for society and what is not. We > need to provide a space to everything for everybody. > > People like TV reality and other such heaps of trash....., how much > we can carry is seriously with us, you know better, at least i cant > take the popular bullshit of saas Bahu and bootnath serials. > > About market and art via ' conspiracy of art' we already know Hussain > sahib is not in a great spiritual health. But a fanatic has no right > to dislodge something which is already dislodged by the Tusnami of > sheer profitalbity of americansim.. > > > love > is > > > On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 8:34 PM, Yousuf wrote: > > Dear Salim > > You are right, an artist should never have to explain. But Picasso > probably never had people killing each others angered by his paintings. But > (as we have discussed earlier on this theme) if you are doing an art for > public, would you not be concerned if the public appreciates it? No one is > born appreciating high art - we acquire a tastes for everything. The point > is, whose responsibity is it to inculcate the appreciation of art in > society? If its a Madhubani painting done on the facade of my village house > by my mother, its very much there in my genes. But if it is a horse by > Hussain kept in a gallery to which I have no access, somebody has to do a > bit of explaining on why such art is distanced from social reality (which > actually is not, but the market has made it look so). > > > > Yousuf > > > > > > --- On Wed, 9/3/08, inder salim wrote: > > > >> From: inder salim > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions > >> To: reader-list at sarai.net > >> Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 7:14 PM > >> Picasso said, if it is possible to explian, it is futile to > >> paint. > >> > >> even if i we gnore picasso, who is an old hat in modern art > >> now, let > >> alone hussain sahib who is immensely supported by > >> investors, and 'post > >> colonialism' as theoritical justificaioin to do > >> whatever he or we > >> sometimes are doing which can pass as derivate at the > >> best. > >> > >> what is education or what is not , what is offensive or > >> what is not, > >> is difficult to explain, if one chases the text, and its > >> meaning > >> profoundly... > >> > >> what we forget also is the fact that what we see are > >> phtographs of the > >> the original > >> > >> .and is photogaphy representing real, if so then we have > >> truly > >> disappeared from the face of this earth. and it does not > >> matter if > >> there is hussain or not, > >> > >> there is book by Jean Baudilard ' conspiracy of > >> art' > >> which speaks the contemporary art practices , and that > >> makes us feel > >> that the whole world is in fact a piece of modern art work > >> , and we > >> are not there, simple not part of it. > >> > >> the question of relevance of hussain in our social > >> structures is open > >> to this sort of criticism, > >> > >> but not once it lands as amunition in the hands of > >> fanatics. > >> > >> love > >> is > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 7:39 AM, Rahul Asthana > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > OK, I think we are almost on the same page now.If by > >> educating you mean explaining;then I agree.Hussein might > >> explain why his painting was not meant to > >> offend,alternatively he may realize how and to what degree > >> its offensive, and he may decide its not worth it.It should > >> work both ways. > >> > I have no stake in whatever is decided,but as > >> Kshmendra has mentioned,the emphasis should be on > >> understanding and respecting the other,not educating them. > >> > > >> > --- On Tue, 9/2/08, Yousuf > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > > From: Yousuf > >> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and > >> Transgressions > >> > > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > >> , rahul_capri at yahoo.com > >> > > Cc: "Sarai list" > >> > >> > > Date: Tuesday, September 2, 2008, 11:03 AM > >> > > Dear Rahul > >> > > Why are you so scared of the word > >> "education", > >> > > and why are you seeing it in such limited terms. > >> If you look > >> > > at my last mail, I agreed that your solution #3 > >> is good and > >> > > I'd be happy if it works. But I emphasized > >> about > >> > > dialogue as part of the education. Don't you > >> think > >> > > dialogue and communication between the two > >> conflicting > >> > > parties would be an integral part of even your > >> solution? > >> > > > >> > > What would you have to say about a > >> counselor/psychiatrist > >> > > who tries to resolve conflicts say between two > >> spouses. > >> > > His/her main role is to (a) know each side's > >> story, and > >> > > then (b) inform each spouse about the other's > >> problem > >> > > which was actually missing between them due to > >> long gaps of > >> > > non-communication. Most conflicts in the family > >> or society > >> > > occur because of the distance we create between > >> two parties > >> > > - we fear each other, imagine all sorts of > >> strange notions > >> > > about each other and strengthenthe hatred about > >> each other. > >> > > If only we talked, we could have realized that > >> much of our > >> > > fears were baseless. > >> > > > >> > > Hence I am simply talking about creating bridges > >> between > >> > > two parties through communication. Why can't > >> we for > >> > > instance have a meeting/workshop between Hussain > >> and the > >> > > religious fanatics where they tell each > >> other's story > >> > > and try to explain why each party needs to be > >> sensitive to > >> > > others' feelings. I know this will not > >> entirely remove > >> > > either party's deep prejudices, and may lead > >> to further > >> > > flaring up, but some moderation may also happen. > >> But I would > >> > > again emphasize that those thoughts and ideas of > >> both sides > >> > > which are required for the dialogue should at > >> least be > >> > > available for everyone to see and understand. For > >> instance, > >> > > we only get to see a lot of hate-propaganda from > >> the > >> > > religious fanatics against the artist, but never > >> see any > >> > > effort from Hussain or the art fraternity to > >> explain what > >> > > this art is all about, and why he makes what he > >> makes. The > >> > > artist thinks that he/she doesn't need to > >> explain > >> > > anything. > >> > > > >> > > I am sorry, but I don't follow terms like > >> reductionism, > >> > > teleology, deontology, so maybe I am sounding a > >> bit rigid to > >> > > you. > >> > > > >> > > Yousuf > >> > > > >> > > --- On Tue, 9/2/08, Rahul Asthana > >> > > wrote: > >> > > > >> > > > From: Rahul Asthana > >> > >> > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and > >> > > Transgressions > >> > > > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > >> > > , ysaeed7 at yahoo.com > >> > > > Cc: "Sarai list" > >> > > > >> > > > Date: Tuesday, September 2, 2008, 2:01 AM > >> > > > Dear Yousuf, > >> > > > Your argument is what I call reductionist > >> (from > >> > > > dictionary.com=2.the practice of simplifying > >> a complex > >> > > idea, > >> > > > issue, condition, or the like, esp. to the > >> point of > >> > > > minimizing, obscuring, or distorting it.). > >> > > > When you talk about "millions of issues > >> in our > >> > > society > >> > > > which people used to take with orthodox > >> > > attitude",you > >> > > > are basically creating a straw man.Many > >> orthodox > >> > > practices > >> > > > have to be given up;we have no difference on > >> that. > >> > > > When two deontologies collide,we have to > >> present a > >> > > > teleological argument in favor of one or the > >> other.In > >> > > other > >> > > > words,when two value frameworks reach > >> conflicting > >> > > position > >> > > > on an issue,we have two ways we can approach > >> the > >> > > > conflict.The one who favors one value > >> framework should > >> > > > present a comparison of the two frameworks > >> in terms of > >> > > > social cost-benefit,or,The one who favors > >> one value > >> > > > framework tries to educate the other one to > >> their > >> > > system > >> > > > just because its "better".Do you > >> see the > >> > > > difference between the two? > >> > > > Now, in an engagement of two groups on > >> perceived > >> > > social > >> > > > cost-benefit,there will be conflicts.Its > >> hard to > >> > > imagine how > >> > > > two groups will have same perception of > >> social > >> > > > cost-benefit.But at least we would be trying > >> to > >> > > resolve > >> > > > issues within a teleological framework which > >> is a lot > >> > > better > >> > > > than "my way is better than your way > >> and you have > >> > > to be > >> > > > educated to my way". > >> > > > > >> > > > Regards > >> > > > Rahul > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > gate social cost-benefit,and not on the > >> basis of what > >> > > one > >> > > > group thinks is right. > >> > > > > >> > > > --- On Mon, 9/1/08, Yousuf > >> > >> > > wrote: > >> > > > > >> > > > > From: Yousuf > >> > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life > >> and > >> > > > Transgressions > >> > > > > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > >> > > > , > >> rahul_capri at yahoo.com > >> > > > > Cc: "Sarai list" > >> > > > > >> > > > > Date: Monday, September 1, 2008, 9:12 > >> AM > >> > > > > Dear Rahul > >> > > > > I understand your logic, but I think > >> your > >> > > alternative > >> > > > no.3 > >> > > > > is too idealized and utopian to > >> achieve, although > >> > > I > >> > > > would > >> > > > > love if it works. Also, it may apply > >> only to some > >> > > > > situations, not all. For instance, if a > >> group of > >> > > > people > >> > > > > thinks that women are inferior and > >> should remain > >> > > > inside > >> > > > > homes, or that we should ruin the > >> environment by > >> > > > cutting > >> > > > > trees, wasting water and fuel, would > >> you allow > >> > > them to > >> > > > > believe and act on this? You may call > >> it my > >> > > > condescending > >> > > > > attitude, but why is it that we have > >> managed to > >> > > bring > >> > > > an > >> > > > > awareness and "reform" today > >> about so > >> > > many > >> > > > > millions of issues in our society which > >> people > >> > > used to > >> > > > take > >> > > > > with orthodox attitude. I am talking > >> about gender > >> > > > equality, > >> > > > > environment, education, health issues > >> (although > >> > > it is > >> > > > still > >> > > > > not enough). Nobody is born with > >> politically > >> > > correct > >> > > > genes - > >> > > > > we all acquire things as we grow. So > >> what's > >> > > the > >> > > > big deal > >> > > > > for instance about having arts > >> appreciation as > >> > > part of > >> > > > the > >> > > > > school curriculum or TV programmes. > >> Should we > >> > > allow > >> > > > our > >> > > > > mainstream media to remain > >> condescending then? > >> > > Why is > >> > > > > television changing the attitude of > >> people - why > >> > > is > >> > > > our > >> > > > > society becoming more consumerist and > >> aggressive > >> > > and > >> > > > > prejudiced? > >> > > > > Look my condescending solution > >> doesn't > >> > > involve > >> > > > simply > >> > > > > education - I am talking about dialogue > >> and > >> > > awareness, > >> > > > and > >> > > > > not talking down somebody's throat > >> which the > >> > > TV > >> > > > does > >> > > > > today. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Yousuf > >> > > > > > >> > > > > --- On Sun, 8/31/08, Rahul Asthana > >> > > > > wrote: > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > From: Rahul Asthana > >> > > > >> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of > >> Life and > >> > > > > Transgressions > >> > > > > > To: "Shuddhabrata > >> Sengupta" > >> > > > > , > >> ysaeed7 at yahoo.com > >> > > > > > Cc: "Sarai list" > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Date: Sunday, August 31, 2008, > >> 11:54 PM > >> > > > > > Yousuf, > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > I think i failed in getting my > >> point > >> > > across.No > >> > > > amount > >> > > > > of > >> > > > > > "education" would make > >> > > Hussein's > >> > > > art > >> > > > > > appreciated by some,and those who > >> are > >> > > offended by > >> > > > > > Hussein's art are no less > >> > > > "educated" > >> > > > > than you > >> > > > > > or me. > >> > > > > > Unless you get rid of your > >> condescension > >> > > about > >> > > > > educating > >> > > > > > people about what they should or > >> > > shouldn't > >> > > > get > >> > > > > offended > >> > > > > > by,any discussion about solution > >> to > >> > > conflicts > >> > > > like > >> > > > > this is a > >> > > > > > non-starter. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > I am going to make one last try > >> though. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Say there are two groups A and > >> B,with > >> > > different > >> > > > value > >> > > > > > systems.A is offended by an act X > >> and B is > >> > > > > not,apparently > >> > > > > > due to their different value > >> systems. B > >> > > > encourages X > >> > > > > and > >> > > > > > this increases tensions in a > >> society where A > >> > > and > >> > > > B > >> > > > > live > >> > > > > > together.Lets see what are the > >> possible > >> > > > solutions. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > 1.Both A and B tell each other to > >> go take a > >> > > hike > >> > > > and > >> > > > > they > >> > > > > > would do according to how they > >> feel fit. > >> > > > > > 2.Both A and B are sure that their > >> value > >> > > systems > >> > > > are > >> > > > > > superior and they try to convert > >> each other > >> > > to > >> > > > their > >> > > > > own > >> > > > > > view points through dialog etc. > >> > > > > > 3.Both A and B recognize that > >> there are > >> > > > irreconcilable > >> > > > > > differences in their world > >> views.They also > >> > > > recognize > >> > > > > that > >> > > > > > they would respect the differences > >> and try > >> > > to > >> > > > honor > >> > > > > them to > >> > > > > > the extent possible while also > >> trying to > >> > > achieve > >> > > > their > >> > > > > own > >> > > > > > goals through whatever means > >> possible. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > If liberal fanatics like you will > >> keep on > >> > > > engaging in > >> > > > > > #2,(which in my opinion is even > >> worse than > >> > > #1 > >> > > > because > >> > > > > #1 > >> > > > > > does not involve condescension) > >> that you are > >> > > > doing > >> > > > > right > >> > > > > > now,you will always enable > >> religious > >> > > fanatics > >> > > > from the > >> > > > > other > >> > > > > > side who will try to convert you > >> to their > >> > > view > >> > > > > point.Why is > >> > > > > > their stand less valid than yours? > >> > > > > > If you engage in #3 ,you will > >> enable > >> > > moderates > >> > > > from > >> > > > > the > >> > > > > > other side who will listen to you > >> if you > >> > > listen > >> > > > to > >> > > > > them. > >> > > > > > The big leap of understanding that > >> you need > >> > > to > >> > > > make is > >> > > > > that > >> > > > > > there can be two internally > >> consistent value > >> > > > systems > >> > > > > which > >> > > > > > will lead to opposing positions on > >> many > >> > > > issues,and > >> > > > > both > >> > > > > > these value systems are equally > >> valid. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Regards > >> > > > > > Rahul > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > --- On Sun, 8/31/08, Yousuf > >> > > > > >> > > > > > wrote: > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > From: Yousuf > >> > >> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] > >> Ways of Life > >> > > and > >> > > > > > Transgressions > >> > > > > > > To: "Shuddhabrata > >> Sengupta" > >> > > > > > , > >> > > rahul_capri at yahoo.com > >> > > > > > > Cc: "Sarai list" > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Date: Sunday, August 31, > >> 2008, 9:40 AM > >> > > > > > > When I mention education, I > >> primarily > >> > > > include > >> > > > > media in > >> > > > > > it. > >> > > > > > > But the media is careless and > >> works > >> > > only on > >> > > > the > >> > > > > > diktats of > >> > > > > > > industry and politicians. So > >> the prime > >> > > > > responsibility > >> > > > > > (of > >> > > > > > > making sure that their art is > >> > > appreciated) > >> > > > falls > >> > > > > on > >> > > > > > the arts > >> > > > > > > fraternity itself. At least > >> until we > >> > > find a > >> > > > > better > >> > > > > > solution. > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > --- On Sat, 8/30/08, Rahul > >> Asthana > >> > > > > > > > >> wrote: > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > From: Rahul Asthana > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: > >> [Reader-list] Ways of > >> > > Life > >> > > > and > >> > > > > > > Transgressions > >> > > > > > > > To: "Shuddhabrata > >> > > Sengupta" > >> > > > > > > , > >> > > ysaeed7 at yahoo.com > >> > > > > > > > Cc: "Sarai > >> list" > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Date: Saturday, August > >> 30, 2008, > >> > > 9:58 > >> > > > PM > >> > > > > > > > "They have not been > >> educated > >> > > to > >> > > > > appreciate > >> > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > nuances > >> > > > > > > > of the medium or the > >> > > message." > >> > > > > > > > Yousuf, I am sorry but > >> that's > >> > > > > > condescending.By the > >> > > > > > > same > >> > > > > > > > token a religious person > >> can say > >> > > that > >> > > > the > >> > > > > artist > >> > > > > > has > >> > > > > > > not > >> > > > > > > > been taught the nuances > >> of > >> > > religious > >> > > > > > sensibilities.My > >> > > > > > > point > >> > > > > > > > is that if two groups > >> having > >> > > different > >> > > > > values > >> > > > > > have to > >> > > > > > > > coexist in a > >> society,they have to > >> > > be > >> > > > > tolerant > >> > > > > > towards > >> > > > > > > each > >> > > > > > > > other. > >> > > > > > > > I do not advocate any > >> limit to the > >> > > > freedom > >> > > > > of > >> > > > > > > > expression,but there > >> should not be > >> > > > complete > >> > > > > > > callousness > >> > > > > > > > towards the feelings of > >> > > groups.Painters > >> > > > like > >> > > > > > Hussein > >> > > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > > other heretics would > >> always keep > >> > > > producing > >> > > > > works > >> > > > > > that > >> > > > > > > would > >> > > > > > > > offend,and perhaps thats > >> necessary > >> > > > too;but > >> > > > > if > >> > > > > > some of > >> > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > people in the media,and > >> I do not > >> > > mean > >> > > > the > >> > > > > media > >> > > > > > which > >> > > > > > > > actually represents > >> these groups, > >> > > can > >> > > > > understand > >> > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > voice > >> > > > > > > > their feelings,then > >> emotions would > >> > > > probably > >> > > > > not > >> > > > > > flare > >> > > > > > > up to > >> > > > > > > > that extent. > >> > > > > > > > That is the middle way. > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 8/30/08, > >> Yousuf > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > wrote: > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > From: Yousuf > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: > >> [Reader-list] > >> > > Ways of > >> > > > Life > >> > > > > and > >> > > > > > > > Transgressions > >> > > > > > > > > To: > >> "Shuddhabrata > >> > > > Sengupta" > >> > > > > > > > > >> , > >> > > > > rahul_capri at yahoo.com > >> > > > > > > > > Cc: "Sarai > >> list" > >> > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > Date: Saturday, > >> August 30, > >> > > 2008, > >> > > > 9:31 > >> > > > > PM > >> > > > > > > > > Dear Rahul > >> > > > > > > > > I had difficulty > >> following > >> > > your > >> > > > first > >> > > > > > sentence > >> > > > > > > (and a > >> > > > > > > > few > >> > > > > > > > > others), but yes, > >> to put it > >> > > in > >> > > > simple > >> > > > > > language, > >> > > > > > > people > >> > > > > > > > have > >> > > > > > > > > been offended by > >> > > Hussain's > >> > > > > paintings, > >> > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > they are > >> > > > > > > > not > >> > > > > > > > > always at fault. > >> They have > >> > > not > >> > > > been > >> > > > > educated > >> > > > > > to > >> > > > > > > > appreciate > >> > > > > > > > > the nuances of the > >> medium or > >> > > the > >> > > > > message. > >> > > > > > And the > >> > > > > > > art > >> > > > > > > > > fraternity > >> doesn't have > >> > > the > >> > > > urge to > >> > > > > go > >> > > > > > to the > >> > > > > > > > people and > >> > > > > > > > > explain what they > >> do and why > >> > > they > >> > > > do. > >> > > > > The > >> > > > > > > politician > >> > > > > > > > of > >> > > > > > > > > course is too happy > >> to cash > >> > > in on > >> > > > the > >> > > > > > ignorance > >> > > > > > > of the > >> > > > > > > > > public. > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Incidentally, > >> countless > >> > > > > > provocative/blasphemous > >> > > > > > > art or > >> > > > > > > > > statements have > >> been made in > >> > > the > >> > > > past > >> > > > > but > >> > > > > > not all > >> > > > > > > of > >> > > > > > > > them > >> > > > > > > > > led to a public > >> outcry. > >> > > Almost all > >> > > > > known > >> > > > > > cases > >> > > > > > > where a > >> > > > > > > > piece > >> > > > > > > > > of art/literature > >> has led to > >> > > > violence, > >> > > > > are > >> > > > > > those > >> > > > > > > where > >> > > > > > > > > somebody (or some > >> political > >> > > party) > >> > > > used > >> > > > > them > >> > > > > > to > >> > > > > > > spread > >> > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > flames. In most > >> cases, the > >> > > > protesters > >> > > > > > haven't > >> > > > > > > seen > >> > > > > > > > or > >> > > > > > > > > read what they have > >> been > >> > > > protesting > >> > > > > against. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > So, should the > >> artists make > >> > > such > >> > > >> provocative > >> > > > > > > works > >> > > > > > > > only for > >> > > > > > > > > themselves or their > >> closest > >> > > > friends, > >> > > > > and > >> > > > > > never > >> > > > > > > allow > >> > > > > > > > them to > >> > > > > > > > > go public. Or > >> should they > >> > > (and > >> > > > their > >> > > > > > > institutions) > >> > > > > > > > create an > >> > > > > > > > > atmosphere of > >> awareness where > >>> > the > >> > > > > public can > >> > > > > > > > appreciate > >> > > > > > > > > their art and not > >> tear it > >> > > apart? I > >> > > > > don't > >> > > > > > find > >> > > > > > > a > >> > > > > > > > third > >> > > > > > > > > alternative. > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Yousuf > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, > >> 8/30/08, Rahul > >> > > Asthana > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > wrote: > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > From: Rahul > >> Asthana > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: > >> > > [Reader-list] > >> > > > Ways of > >> > > > > Life > >> > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > > > Transgressions > >> > > > > > > > > > To: > >> ysaeed7 at yahoo.com, > >> > > > > > "Shuddhabrata > >> > > > > > > > > Sengupta" > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Cc: > >> "Sarai > >> > > list" > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > Date: > >> Saturday, August > >> > > 30, > >> > > > 2008, > >> > > > > 8:42 > >> > > > > > PM > >> > > > > > > > > > Dear Yousuf, > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > I think the > >> classic > >> > > liberal > >> > > > stand > >> > > > > of > >> > > > > > > reductionist > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> extrapolation,in which > >> > > one > >> > > > > develops > >> > > > > > certain > >> > > > > > > set > >> > > > > > > > of > >> > > > > > > > > canonical > >> > > > > > > > > > principles and > >> expects > >> > > them > >> > > > to > >> > > > > govern > >> > > > > > all > >> > > > > > > > discourse on > >> > > > > > > > > a > >> > > > > > > > > > certain topic, > >> is not > >> > > > necessarily > >> > > > > > > philosophically > >> > > > > > > > > incorrect > >> > > > > > > > > > from their > >> point of > >> > > view,but > >> > > > > > insufficient > >> > > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > > improper > >> > > > > > > > > if we > >> > > > > > > > > > want to live > >> in a > >> > > tolerant > >> > > > liberal > >> > > > > > society.I > >> > > > > > > will > >> > > > > > > > try > >> > > > > > > > > to > >> > > > > > > > > > elaborate: > >> > > > > > > > > > The point is > >> not that > >> > > Hussein > >> > > > as a > >> > > > > > Muslim > >> > > > > > > can > >> > > > > > > > paint > >> > > > > > > > > Hindu > >> > > > > > > > > > deities,nude > >> or > >> > > otherwise or > >> > > > > whether > >> > > > > > his > >> > > > > > > > intention was > >> > > > > > > > > to > >> > > > > > > > > > insult,or > >> not.The point > >> > > is > >> > > > also > >> > > > > not > >> > > > > > that the > >> > > > > > > his > >> > > > > > > > > paintings > >> > > > > > > > > > can be > >> artistic and > >> > > break new > >> > > > > grounds > >> > > > > > of > >> > > > > > > > expression > >> > > > > > > > > > etc.Neither is > >> it the > >> > > point > >> > > > that > >> > > > > he > >> > > > > > should > >> > > > > > > have > >> > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > freedom > >> > > > > > > > > > of expression > >> to paint > >> > > > whatever he > >> > > > > > wants.The > >> > > > > > > > point is > >> > > > > > > > > also > >> > > > > > > > > > not that the > >> people who > >> > > > attacked > >> > > > > him > >> > > > > > were > >> > > > > > > wrong. > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > The point that > >> I have > >> > > been > >> > > > trying > >> > > > > to > >> > > > > > make is > >> > > > > > > that > >> > > > > > > > all > >> > > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > above things > >> are > >> > > true;but > >> > > > still a > >> > > > > > painting > >> > > > > > > that > >> > > > > > > > he has > >> > > > > > > > > made > >> > > > > > > > > > can be > >> offensive to many > >> > > > > people.Now,the > >> > > > > > > classic > >> > > > > > > > > reductionist > >> > > > > > > > > > line here is > >> > > that,offense is > >> > > > > > > > subjective.Obviously,we > >> > > > > > > > > > can't be > >> bothered > >> > > about > >> > > > every > >> > > > > > person who > >> > > > > > > > takes > >> > > > > > > > > offense > >> > > > > > > > > > at any random > >> stuff, can > >> > > > we?To > >> > > > > that I > >> > > > > > would > >> > > > > > > say, > >> > > > > > > > using > >> > > > > > > > > our > >> > > > > > > > > > own personal > >> > > > judgment,depending > >> > > > > upon > >> > > > > > our > >> > > > > > > > interactions > >> > > > > > > > > with > >> > > > > > > > > > people, we can > >> make out > >> > > most > >> > > > of > >> > > > > the > >> > > > > > times > >> > > > > > > if > >> > > > > > > > > something is > >> > > > > > > > > > truly > >> offensive to a > >> > > large > >> > > > group > >> > > > > of > >> > > > > > people > >> > > > > > > or > >> > > > > > > > not.If > >> > > > > > > > > we > >> > > > > > > > > > can't,we > >> should talk > >> > > to > >> > > > > > people.IMHO,I > >> > > > > > > > don't > >> > > > > > > > > think I > >> > > > > > > > > > should take > >> the easy way > >> > > out > >> > > > of > >> > > > > hiding > >> > > > > > > behind the > >> > > > > > > > > principles > >> > > > > > > > > > of freedom of > >> expression > >> > > and > >> > > > > visual > >> > > > > > > metaphors > >> > > > > > > > etc.We > >> > > > > > > > > should > >> > > > > > > > > > always support > >> freedom > >> > > of > >> > > > > > expression,but if > >> > > > > > > we > >> > > > > > > > can > >> > > > > > > > > surmise > >> > > > > > > > > > that a > >> particular act of > >> > > art > >> > > > was > >> > > > > > done,when > >> > > > > > > it was > >> > > > > > > > > probably > >> > > > > > > > > > apparent that > >> it would > >> > > hurt > >> > > > the > >> > > > > > > sensibilities of > >> > > > > > > > a > >> > > > > > > > > large > >> > > > > > > > > > group of > >> people,we > >> > > should > >> > > > call it > >> > > > > for > >> > > > > > > "bad > >> > > > > > > > > taste". > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > If we have > >> respect for > >> > > and > >> > > > engage > >> > > > > in > >> > > > > > dialog > >> > > > > > > with > >> > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > moderates of > >> groups we > >> > > may > >> > > > not > >> > > > > have to > >> > > > > > deal > >> > > > > > > with > >> > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > extremists. > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Dear Shuddha, > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > I think you > >> mentioned > >> > > earlier > >> > > > how > >> > > > > > religious > >> > > > > > > > people > >> > > > > > > > > offend > >> > > > > > > > > > the > >> sensitivities of > >> > > > > atheists.Could you > >> > > > > > > please > >> > > > > > > > > elaborate? > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Thanks > >> > > > > > > > > > Rahul > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, > >> 8/30/08, > >> > > > Shuddhabrata > >> > > > > > Sengupta > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > wrote: > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > From: > >> Shuddhabrata > >> > > > Sengupta > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > Subject: > >> Re: > >> > > > [Reader-list] > >> > > > > Ways of > >> > > > > > Life > >> > > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > > > > Transgressions > >> > > > > > > > > > > To: > >> > > ysaeed7 at yahoo.com > >> > > > > > > > > > > Cc: > >> "Sarai > >> > > > list" > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > Date: > >> Saturday, > >> > > August > >> > > > 30, > >> > > > > 2008, > >> > > > > > 2:44 > >> > > > > > > AM > >> > > > > > > > > > > Dear > >> Yousuf, dear > >> > > all, > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > thank you > >> very > >> > > much, > >> > > > Yousuf > >> > > > > for > >> > > > > > your > >> > > > > > > mail. I > >> > > > > > > > > really > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> appreciate your > >> > > > > > > > > > > point of > >> drawing > >> > > > attention to > >> > > > > the > >> > > > > > > available > >> > > > > > > > > > vocabularies > >> of > >> > > > > > > > > > > visual > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> representation and > >> > > the > >> > > > way in > >> > > > > > which > >> > > > > > > they > >> > > > > > > > > determine or > >> > > > > > > > > > > influence > >> the > >> > > > > > > > > > > universe > >> of visual > >> > > > > > repsesentatiation, > >> > > > > > > if > >> > > > > > > > only to > >> > > > > > > > > > underline > >> > > > > > > > > > > the fact > >> > > > > > > > > > > that no > >> visual > >> > > artist is > >> > > > ever > >> > > > > > divorced > >> > > > > > > from > >> > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > context tat > >> > > > > > > > > > > they are > >> > > > > > > > > > > born > >> into. I have > >> > > > nowhere > >> > > > > written > >> > > > > > > about why > >> > > > > > > > > Husain > >> > > > > > > > > > does > >> > > > > > > > > > > not > >> choose > >> > > > > > > > > > > to > >> represent themes > >> > > from > >> > > > the > >> > > > > > Islamic > >> > > > > > > canon, > >> > > > > > > > and I > >> > > > > > > > > > totally > >> > > > > > > > > > > agree > >> with > >> > > > > > > > > > > you that > >> he does > >> > > not do > >> > > > so > >> > > > > because > >> > > > > > they > >> > > > > > > are > >> > > > > > > > not > >> > > > > > > > > > available > >> > > > > > > > > > > to him in > >> > > > > > > > > > > his > >> cultural miieu, > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > As for > >> apparently > >> > > > > transgressive > >> > > > > > cases > >> > > > > > > like > >> > > > > > > > > Husain or > >> > > > > > > > > > Dillu > >> > > > > > > > > > > Ram > >> > > > > > > > > > > Kausari, > >> I cannnot > >> > > see > >> > > > why > >> > > > > they > >> > > > > > should > >> > > > > > > not b > >> > > > > > > > > > celebrated. > >> > > > > > > > > > > Hindus > >> > > > > > > > > > > should > >> honour > >> > > Husain and > >> > > > > Muslims > >> > > > > > should > >> > > > > > > > honour > >> > > > > > > > > Dillu > >> > > > > > > > > > Ram. > >> > > > > > > > > > > In this > >> way > >> > > > > > > > > > > they > >> would ensure > >> > > that > >> > > > acts > >> > > > > of > >> > > > > > > 'road > >> > > > > > > > > crossing' > >> > > > > > > > > > need > >> > > > > > > > > > > not > >> necessarily > >> > > > > > > > > > > end in > >> lethal > >> > > accidents, > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > warm > >> regards, and > >> > > hoping > >> > > > for > >> > > > > many > >> > > > > > more > >> > > > > > > road > >> > > > > > > > > crossings, > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > Shuddha > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > On > >> 29-Aug-08, at > >> > > 8:25 > >> > > > PM, > >> > > > > Yousuf > >> > > > > > Saeed > >> > > > > > > > wrote: > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > Dear > >> Shuddha, > >> > > > others > >> > > > > > > > > > > > I > >> really > >> > > appreciate > >> > > > your > >> > > > > > > highlighting > >> > > > > > > > of the > >> > > > > > > > > fact > >> > > > > > > > > > that > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hussain's > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> intention may > >> > > not > >> > > > be of > >> > > > > > insulting > >> > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > Hindus > >> > > > > > > > > by > >> > > > > > > > > > > drawing > >> the deities > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > in > >> the nude or > >> > > > > otherwise. I > >> > > > > > am not > >> > > > > > > a > >> > > > > > > > > defender of > >> > > > > > > > > > > Hussain, > >> but would > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > like > >> to put > >> > > across > >> > > > a few > >> > > > > > points. > >> > > > > > > Many > >> > > > > > > > people > >> > > > > > > > > (on > >> > > > > > > > > > this > >> > > > > > > > > > > list and > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> elsewhere) > >> > > have > >> > > > pointed > >> > > > > out > >> > > > > > that > >> > > > > > > > Hussain > >> > > > > > > > > never > >> > > > > > > > > > drew > >> > > > > > > > > > > any > >> Muslim > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> character > >> > > (such as > >> > > > the > >> > > > > > Prophet) in > >> > > > > > > this > >> > > > > > > > > manner, > >> > > > > > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > > > > > therefore > >> his > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> intention must > >> > > be > >> > > > to > >> > > > > insult > >> > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > Hindus. > >> > > > > > > > They > >> > > > > > > > > also > >> > > > > > > > > > say > >> > > > > > > > > > > that such > >> an > >> > > > > > > > > > > > act > >> by any > >> > > artist > >> > > > in a > >> > > > > Muslim > >> > > > > > > country > >> > > > > > > > (like > >> > > > > > > > > Saudi > >> > > > > > > > > > > Arabia) > >> would > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> result in > >> > > death > >> > > > penalty, > >> > > > > and > >> > > > > > so > >> > > > > > > on. But > >> > > > > > > > > maybe > >> > > > > > > > > > Hussain > >> > > > > > > > > > > did not > >> draw > >> > > > > > > > > > > > an > >> Islamic > >> > > > character in > >> > > > > an > >> > > > > > > > > > >> "immodest" > >> > > > > > > > > > > posture > >> simply > >> > > because > >> > > > such > >> > > > > > > > > > > > an > >> image or > >> > > icon > >> > > > > doesn't > >> > > > > > exist > >> > > > > > > in the > >> > > > > > > > > > Islam's > >> > > > > > > > > > > visual > >> cultural > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> tradition. If > >> > > he > >> > > > does > >> > > > > it, > >> > > > > > then > >> > > > > > > that > >> > > > > > > > would be > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> deliberately > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> provocative > >> > > > (although I > >> > > > > am > >> > > > > > not > >> > > > > > > saying > >> > > > > > > > it > >> > > > > > > > > > shouldn't > >> > > > > > > > > > > be done). > >> But he > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> could draw a > >> > > Hindu > >> > > > deity > >> > > > > in > >> > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > nude > >> > > > > > > > because > >> > > > > > > > > such > >> > > > > > > > > > a > >> > > > > > > > > > > tradition > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> exists in our > >> > > > Indian > >> > > > > visual > >> > > > > > > culture. I > >> > > > > > > > doubt > >> > > > > > > > > if > >> > > > > > > > > > he > >> > > > > > > > > > > avoids > >> > > > > > > > > > > > the > >> depiction > >> > > of > >> > > > Muslim > >> > > > > > themes > >> > > > > > > because > >> > > > > > > > he > >> > > > > > > > > is > >> > > > > > > > > > scared > >> > > > > > > > > > > of the > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Islamists. > >> > > Maybe he > >> > > > > simply > >> > > > > > > can't > >> > > > > > > > relate > >> > > > > > > > > to it > >> > > > > > > > > > as > >> > > > > > > > > > > an > >> Indian. > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > If I > >> as an > >> > > artist > >> > > > cannot > >> > > > > > express > >> > > > > > > my > >> > > > > > > > certain > >> > > > > > > > > > feelings > >> > > > > > > > > > > in the > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> language that > >> > > has > >> > > > been > >> > > > > taught > >> > > > > > to > >> > > > > > > be me > >> > > > > > > > by my > >> > > > > > > > > > parents, > >> > > > > > > > > > > and I > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> suddenly > >> > > discover a > >> > > > new > >> > > > > > language > >> > > > > > > that > >> > > > > > > > allows > >> > > > > > > > > me > >> > > > > > > > > > to > >> > > > > > > > > > > express > >> that > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> peculiar > >> > > feeling in > >> > > > a > >> > > > > much > >> > > > > > better > >> > > > > > > way > >> > > > > > > > than > >> > > > > > > > > what > >> > > > > > > > > > my > >> > > > > > > > > > > mother > >> tongue > >> > > > > > > > > > > > did, > >> I would > >> > > be > >> > > > happy to > >> > > > > use > >> > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > new > >> > > > > > > > > language. > >> > > > > > > > > > There > >> > > > > > > > > > > are > >> thousands > >> > > > > > > > > > > > of > >> poets and > >> > > > artists who > >> > > > > > found a > >> > > > > > > new > >> > > > > > > > way of > >> > > > > > > > > > expression > >> > > > > > > > > > > in a > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> language which > >> > > > every one > >> > > > > in > >> > > > > > their > >> > > > > > > midst > >> > > > > > > > had > >> > > > > > > > > found > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > "inferior" – > >> > > > I am > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> talking for > >> > > example > >> > > > of > >> > > > > the > >> > > > > > > tradition of > >> > > > > > > > > Persian > >> > > > > > > > > > poets > >> > > > > > > > > > > of South > >> Asia > >> > > > > > > > > > > > who > >> also wrote > >> > > > verses in > >> > > > > > Hindi or > >> > > > > > > > Hinduvi. > >> > > > > > > > > While > >> > > > > > > > > > poets > >> > > > > > > > > > > such as > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Masud Sa'd > >> > > > Salman, > >> > > > > Amir > >> > > > > > > Khusrau, > >> > > > > > > > > Abdurrahim > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Khane-khana, > >> > > Ghalib, or > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Iqbal became > >> > > famous > >> > > > for > >> > > > > their > >> > > > > > > exquisite > >> > > > > > > > > verse in > >> > > > > > > > > > > Persian, > >> their > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> heart pours > >> > > out > >> > > > better > >> > > > > in > >> > > > > > their > >> > > > > > > > Hinduvi, > >> > > > > > > > > Urdu or > >> > > > > > > > > > Braj > >> > > > > > > > > > > poetry > >> where > >> > > > > > > > > > > > they > >> can come > >> > > down > >> > > > to > >> > > > > the > >> > > > > > earth > >> > > > > > > from > >> > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > lofty > >> > > > > > > > > > royal > >> > > > > > > > > > > palaces. > >> We > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> often say, > >> > > > "Unki > >> > > > > Hindi > >> > > > > > > shayeri > >> > > > > > > > mein > >> > > > > > > > > mitti ki > >> > > > > > > > > > > khushbu > >> aati > >> > > hai" > >> > > > (one > >> > > > > > > > > > > > can > >> smell the > >> > > earth > >> > > > in > >> > > > > their > >> > > > > > > vernacular > >> > > > > > > > > poetry). > >> > > > > > > > > > And I > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> think Hussain > >> > > is > >> > > > no > >> > > > > > different > >> > > > > > > from > >> > > > > > > > them. He > >> > > > > > > > > > cannot > >> > > > > > > > > > > draw an > >> Islamic > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> character in > >> > > the > >> > > > nude > >> > > > > because > >> > > > > > > it's > >> > > > > > > > > probably > >> > > > > > > > > > not in > >> > > > > > > > > > > his > >> palette, or > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> doesn't > >> > > touch > >> > > > his > >> > > > > heart. > >> > > > > > (And > >> > > > > > > we > >> > > > > > > > cannot > >> > > > > > > > > force > >> > > > > > > > > > him > >> > > > > > > > > > > to do it > >> to > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> become more > >> > > > politically > >> > > > > > correct). > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > You > >> may say > >> > > that a > >> > > > lot > >> > > > > of > >> > > > > > > > semi-pornographic > >> > > > > > > > > > scenes > >> > > > > > > > > > > have been > >> drawn > >> > > > > > > > > > > > in > >> Mughal or > >> > > > Persian > >> > > > > > miniatures, > >> > > > > > > and he > >> > > > > > > > > could > >> > > > > > > > > > have > >> > > > > > > > > > > followed > >> that. > >> > > > > > > > > > > > But > >> that's > >> > > not > >> > > > the > >> > > > > point. > >> > > > > > > Hindu > >> > > > > > > > deities > >> > > > > > > > > are > >> > > > > > > > > > > flexible > >> enough for > >> > > us > >> > > > > > > > > > > > to > >> turn them > >> > > around > >> > > > the > >> > > > > way > >> > > > > > we > >> > > > > > > wish, to > >> > > > > > > > > express a > >> > > > > > > > > > > certain > >> feeling > >> > > > > > > > > > > > that > >> cannot be > >> > > > expressed > >> > > > > any > >> > > > > > other > >> > > > > > > way. > >> > > > > > > > So > >> > > > > > > > > why > >> > > > > > > > > > not > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> appreciate and > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> celebrate that > >> > > > fact. (I > >> > > > > know > >> > > > > > such > >> > > > > > > a > >> > > > > > > > > statement > >> > > > > > > > > > from me > >> > > > > > > > > > > might > >> raise > >> > > > > > > > > > > > some > >> > > eyebrows). I > >> > > > maybe > >> > > > > a > >> > > > > > Muslim > >> > > > > > > but I > >> > > > > > > > > appreciate > >> > > > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > > fact that > >> you > >> > > > > > > > > > > > can > >> literally > >> > > play > >> > > > with > >> > > > > many > >> > > > > > Hindu > >> > > > > > > > deities. > >> > > > > > > > > Just > >> > > > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > > other day > >> I > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> heard Pandit > >> > > Jasraj > >> > > > sing > >> > > > > a > >> > > > > > khayal > >> > > > > > > in > >> > > > > > > > which > >> > > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > lyrics > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> repeatedly > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> referred to > >> > > Krishna > >> > > > as a > >> > > > > chor > >> > > > > > > (thief). > >> > > > > > > > Does > >> > > > > > > > > that > >> > > > > > > > > > > insult a > >> Hindu? Or > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> would it > >> > > insult a > >> > > > Hindu > >> > > > > if > >> > > > > > this > >> > > > > > > khayal > >> > > > > > > > was > >> > > > > > > > > sung > >> > > > > > > > > > by > >> > > > > > > > > > > Ustad > >> Amir Khan? > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> (Incidentally, > >> > > a > >> > > > large > >> > > > > number > >> > > > > > of > >> > > > > > > > traditional > >> > > > > > > > > > Hindu > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> devotional > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> lyrics sung in > >> > > > classical > >> > > > > > music > >> > > > > > > have > >> > > > > > > > reached > >> > > > > > > > > us > >> > > > > > > > > > via > >> > > > > > > > > > > Muslim > >> gharana > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> musicians, and > >> > > much > >> > > > of > >> > > > > > devotional > >> > > > > > > Hindu > >> > > > > > > > > visual > >> > > > > > > > > > > mythology > >> has come > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > to > >> us via > >> > > patwa > >> > > >artists > >> > > > > of > >> > > > > > Bengal > >> > > > > > > who > >> > > > > > > > are > >> > > > > > > > > > > > all > >> Muslim. > >> > > Can > >> > > > > M.F.Hussain > >> > > > > > be > >> > > > > > > > detached > >> > > > > > > > > from > >> > > > > > > > > > that > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> continuity?) > >> > > > > > > > > > > > Much > >> of the > >> > > popular > >> > > > > calendar > >> > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > poster > >> > > > > > > > art > >> > > > > > > > > of > >> > > > > > > > > > 20th > >> > > > > > > > > > > century > >> showing > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hindu deities > >> > > was > >> > > > drawn > >> > > > > by an > >> > > > > > > artist > >> > > > > > > > called > >> > > > > > > > > Hasan > >> > > > > > > > > > Raza > >> > > > > > > > > > > Raja of > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Meerut. And > >> > > the > >> > > > manner > >> > > > > in > >> > > > > > which > >> > > > > > > most > >> > > > > > > > Hindu > >> > > > > > > > > > deities are > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> visualized > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> today comes > >> > > from > >> > > > the > >> > > > > > pioneering > >> > > > > > > work of > >> > > > > > > > Raja > >> > > > > > > > > Ravi > >> > > > > > > > > > > Varma who > >> was > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> clearly > >> > > inspired by > >> > > > > western > >> > > > > > style > >> > > > > > > of > >> > > > > > > > art > >> > > > > > > > > where > >> > > > > > > > > > human > >> > > > > > > > > > > models > >> were > >> > > > > > > > > > > > used > >> to > >> > > visualize > >> > > > the > >> > > > > gods > >> > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > > goddesses. > >> > > > > > > > > So, > >> > > > > > > > > > does all > >> > > > > > > > > > > this > >> insult > >> > > > > > > > > > > > the > >> Hindus? > >> > > And > >> > > > what is > >> > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > >> "original" > >> > > > > > > > > > Hindu > >> > > > > > > > > > > way of > >> imagining > >> > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> deities any > >> > > way? > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > I > >> liked your > >> > > > quoting > >> > > > > from > >> > > > > > Kausari > >> > > > > > > who > >> > > > > > > > is > >> > > > > > > > > among > >> > > > > > > > > > many > >> > > > > > > > > > > Hindu > >> poets who > >> > > > > > > > > > > > have > >> > > > written/announced > >> > > > > their > >> > > > > > > emotive > >> > > > > > > > > affiliation > >> > > > > > > > > > with > >> > > > > > > > > > > Prophet > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Mohammad in > >> > > the > >> > > > same way > >> > > > > as > >> > > > > > say > >> > > > > > > with > >> > > > > > > > > Krishna. I > >> > > > > > > > > > doubt > >> > > > > > > > > > > if such > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> actions in the > >> > > past > >> > > > may > >> > > > > have > >> > > > > > met > >> > > > > > > with > >> > > > > > > > much > >> > > > > > > > > > resistance > >> > > > > > > > > > > (as you > >> have > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> mentioned) – > >> > > such > >> > > > > examples > >> > > > > > were > >> > > > > > > a > >> > > > > > > > norm. > >> > > > > > > > > There > >> > > > > > > > > > are > >> > > > > > > > > > > many > >> Hindu poets > >> > > > > > > > > > > > who > >> have > >> > > written > >> > > > > marsiyas > >> > > > > > full of > >> > > > > > > > pathos for > >> > > > > > > > > Imam > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hussain's > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> martyrdom, and > >> > > many > >> > > > > Muslim > >> > > > > > poets > >> > > > > > > who > >> > > > > > > > > composed > >> > > > > > > > > > adorable > >> > > > > > > > > > > songs for > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Krishna. I > >> > > > don't > >> > > > > think it > >> > > > > > was > >> > > > > > > too > >> > > > > > > > hard > >> > > > > > > > > to > >> > > > > > > > > > cross > >> > > > > > > > > > > the road > >> in those > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> days. So, why > >> > > are > >> > > > we > >> > > > > busy > >> > > > > > throwing > >> > > > > > > > stones > >> > > > > > > > > onto > >> > > > > > > > > > each > >> > > > > > > > > > > other > >> from the > >> > > > > > > > > > > > two > >> sides of a > >> > > > road? I > >> > > > > could > >> > > > > > > imagine > >> > > > > > > > that at > >> > > > > > > > > > least an > >> > > > > > > > > > > online > >> forum > >> > > > > > > > > > > > like > >> Sarai > >> > > could > >> > > > act > >> > > > > like a > >> > > > > > subway > >> > > > > > > or a > >> > > > > > > > > walk-over > >> > > > > > > > > > > bridge to > >> cross > >> > > > > > > > > > > > the > >> busy > >> > > highway. > >> > > > But > >> > > > > > currently it > >> > > > > > >> seems > >> > > > > > > > > more > >> > > > > > > > > > like a > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> road-block. > >> > > > > > > > > > > > And > >> we are all > >> > > > paying > >> > > > > the > >> > > > > > toll. > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Yousuf > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > --- > >> On Fri, > >> > > > 8/29/08, > >> > > > > > Shuddhabrata > >> > > > > > > > Sengupta > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > wrote: > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> From: > >> > > > Shuddhabrata > >> > > > > > Sengupta > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Subject: > >> > > > > [Reader-list] > >> > > > > > Ways of > >> > > > > > > Life > >> > > > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Transgressions > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> To: > >> > > "Sarai > >> > > > > > list" > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Date: > >> > > Friday, > >> > > > August > >> > > > > 29, > >> > > > > > 2008, > >> > > > > > > 1:31 > >> > > > > > > > PM > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Dear All, > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> I have > >> > > been > >> > > > > intrigued by > >> > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > exchange on > >> > > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > list > >> > > > > > > > > > > of late > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> that has > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> preferred > >> > > to > >> > > > > jettison the > >> > > > > > term > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> 'religion' > >> > > > > > > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> prefer in > >> > > its > >> > > > stead > >> > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > euphimistic > >> > > > phrase - > >> > > > > > 'ways > >> > > > > > > of > >> > > > > > > > > life'. > >> > > > > > > > > > I am > >> > > > > > > > > > > referring > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> to the > >> > > exchange > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> between > >> > > > Chanchal > >> > > > > Malviya > >> > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > > Jeebesh > >> > > > > > > > > Bagchi, > >> > > > > > > > > > > arising > >> out of > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> the > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> heated > >> > > > > correspondence on > >> > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > disruption > >> > > > > > > > > of a > >> > > > > > > > > > small > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> exhibition > >> > > > devoted > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> to > >> > > M.F.Husain. > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> i am quite > >> > > > convinced > >> > > > > that > >> > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > term > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> 'religion' > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> which > >> > > derives > >> > > > from > >> > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> latin root > >> > > of > >> > > > the > >> > > > > word > >> > > > > > religio > >> > > > > > > > (bond) > >> > > > > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > > > > religare > >> > > > > > > > > > > (the > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> verb form > >> > > of > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> 'to > >> > > > bind') > >> > > > > > remains for > >> > > > > > > me a > >> > > > > > > > > useful > >> > > > > > > > > > word to > >> > > > > > > > > > > name the > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> act of > >> > > > committing > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> oneself in > >> > > any > >> > > > form. > >> > > > > In > >> > > > > > this > >> > > > > > > sense, > >> > > > > > > > > atheists > >> > > > > > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > > > > > agnostics > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> are just > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> as > >> > > religious > >> > > > (in > >> > > > > their > >> > > > > > > commitment > >> > > > > > > > to > >> > > > > > > > > doubt) > >> > > > > > > > > > as are > >> > > > > > > > > > > those > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> blessed > >> > > with > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> faith. I > >> > > would > >> > > > > describe > >> > > > > > my > >> > > > > > > > religious > >> > > > > > > > > > commitment as > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > agnosticism - a > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> commitment > >> > > to > >> > > > doubt > >> > > > > > > everything, > >> > > > > > > > > (including > >> > > > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > > value of > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> doubt) and > >> > > a > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> certainty > >> > > that > >> > > > we > >> > > > > cannot > >> > > > > > speak > >> > > > > > > > certainly > >> > > > > > > > > of > >> > > > > > > > > > > anything > >> at > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> all, > >> > > because > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> there are > >> > > > always > >> > > > > > > counterfactuals, > >> > > > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > > > > hitherto > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> unimagined, > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> or unknown > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > possibilities, > >> > > > that > >> > > > > goad > >> > > > > > us on > >> > > > > > > to > >> > > > > > > > yet > >> > > > > > > > > newer > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> possibilities, > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> or to > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> return to > >> > > some > >> > > > very > >> > > > > old > >> > > > > > ones. > >> > > > > > > This > >> > > > > > > > is > >> > > > > > > > > just to > >> > > > > > > > > > say > >> > > > > > > > > > > that it > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> would be a > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> mistake to > >> > > > assume, > >> > > > > as is > >> > > > > > often > >> > > > > > > done > >> > > > > > > > with > >> > > > > > > > > some > >> > > > > > > > > > > arrogance > >> on > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> the part > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> of the > >> > > more > >> > > > > pronouncedly > >> > > > > > > > > 'faithful', > >> > > > > > > > > > that > >> > > > > > > > > > > atheists > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> and > >> > > agnostics > >> > > > have > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> no > >> > > > > 'spiritual' > >> > > > > > quests. > >> > > > > > > They > >> > > > > > > > do, > >> > > > > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > > > > they > >> > > > > > > > > > > dont, > >> just > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> as those > >> > > who > >> > > > are > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > ostentatiously > >> > > > > > > 'religious' > >> > > > > > > > do, > >> > > > > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > > > > dont, > >> > > > > > > > > > > or do > >> only > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> in as much > >> > > as > >> > > > it > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> allows > >> > > them to > >> > > > burn > >> > > > > a few > >> > > > > > > churches > >> > > > > > > > as > >> > > > > > > > > they go > >> > > > > > > > > > > questing. > >> If > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Hindu > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > fundamentalists > >> > > > have > >> > > > > > chosen to > >> > > > > > > > renounce > >> > > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > ties > >> > > > > > > > > > > that bind > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> (religio) > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> them to > >> > > life, > >> > > > who > >> > > > > would I > >> > > > > > be > >> > > > > > > to > >> > > > > > > > object, > >> > > > > > > > > > because, I > >> > > > > > > > > > > am not a > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Hindu. > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> But I have > >> > > no > >> > > > > quarrel > >> > > > > > with the > >> > > > > > > term > >> > > > > > > > > 'ways > >> > > > > > > > > > of > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> life'. > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> The more > >> > > words > >> > > > we > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> have, the > >> > > > better. > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> This > >> > > discussion > >> > > > > arose out > >> > > > > > of a > >> > > > > > > rage > >> > > > > > > > felt > >> > > > > > > > > by > >> > > > > > > > > > some > >> > > > > > > > > > > that a > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> group of > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> zealots > >> > > had > >> > > > broken > >> > > > > and > >> > > > > > > disrupted an > >> > > > > > > > > > exhibition > >> > > > > > > > > > > that > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> featured > >> > > some > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> images of > >> > > and > >> > > > by > >> > > > > Husain, > >> > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > counter > >> > > > > > > > > rage > >> > > > > > > > > > felt > >> > > > > > > > > > > by > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> others > >> > > that the > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> zealots > >> > > had no > >> > > > right > >> > > > > to > >> > > > > > be > >> > > > > > > > criticised > >> > > > > > > > > because > >> > > > > > > > > > they > >> > > > > > > > > > > were > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> acting to > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> protect > >> > > the > >> > > > honour > >> > > > > of the > >> > > > > > > Hindu > >> > > > > > > > deities > >> > > > > > > > > that > >> > > > > > > > > > they > >> > > > > > > > > > > felt > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Husain had > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> insulted. > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> The second > >> > > case > >> > > > is > >> > > > > as > >> > > > > > follows > >> > > > > > > - > >> > > > > > > > what > >> > > > > > > > > right > >> > > > > > > > > > has > >> > > > > > > > > > > Husain, a > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Muslim to > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> insult > >> > > Hindu > >> > > > deities > >> > > > > by > >> > > > > > > portraying > >> > > > > > > > them > >> > > > > > > > > in a > >> > > > > > > > > > > manner > >> that is > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> offensive > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> to the > >> > > > sentiments of > >> > > > > many > >> > > > > > > Hindus. > >> > > > > > > > > > (Husain's > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > motivations, or > >> > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> aesthetic > >> > > merit > >> > > > of > >> > > > > his > >> > > > > > images > >> > > > > > > are > >> > > > > > > > not > >> > > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > issue > >> > > > > > > > > > > here, > >> what > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> is at > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> issue is > >> > > the > >> > > > insult > >> > > > > seen > >> > > > > > to > >> > > > > > > have > >> > > > > > > > > occurred > >> > > > > > > > > > when a > >> > > > > > > > > > > non-Hindu > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > 'touches' > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> a sacred > >> > > Hindu > >> > > > icon > >> > > > > with > >> > > > > > his > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> 'insulting' > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > imagination. > >> > > > Those > >> > > > > so > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> enraged, > >> > > also > >> > > > throw > >> > > > > the > >> > > > > > > following > >> > > > > > > > > challenge, > >> > > > > > > > > > has > >> > > > > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> opposite > >> > > ever > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> occurred? > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> I am not > >> > > here > >> > > > to > >> > > > > make a > >> > > > > > case > >> > > > > > > for > >> > > > > > > > Husain. > >> > > > > > > > > (As > >> > > > > > > > > > I > >> > > > > >> > > > > have said > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> before I > >> > > do > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> not have a > >> > > very > >> > > > high > >> > > > > > opinion > >> > > > > > > of his > >> > > > > > > > work > >> > > > > > > > > as > >> > > > > > > > > > an > >> > > > > > > > > > > artist). > >> I > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> am here to > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> make a > >> > > case for > >> > > > what > >> > > > > is > >> > > > > > > considered > >> > > > > > > > to be > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> transgression. No > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> one can be > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> sure when > >> > > they > >> > > > have > >> > > > > > > transgressed. > >> > > > > > > > > Because > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> transgression can > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> be seen > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> to occur > >> > > even > >> > > > when > >> > > > > the > >> > > > > > motives > >> > > > > > > of > >> > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > person > >> > > > > > > > > > > concerned > >> are > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> far from > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > transgression. > >> > > > > Husain can > >> > > > > > say > >> > > > > > > in > >> > > > > > > > his > >> > > > > > > > > defence, > >> > > > > > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > > > > > indeed > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> has on > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> occasion > >> > > said > >> > > > that > >> > > > > his > >> > > > > > > paintings > >> > > > > > > > are an > >> > > > > > > > > index > >> > > > > > > > > > of > >> > > > > > > > > > > his > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > appreciation of > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Indic > >> > > culture > >> > > > and > >> > > > > its > >> > > > > > > diversity of > >> > > > > > > > > > expressions, > >> of > >> > > > > > > > > > > his > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> closeness > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> (since > >> > > early > >> > > > > childhood) > >> > > > > > to > >> > > > > > > forms of > >> > > > > > > > > iconic > >> > > > > > > > > > imagery > >> > > > > > > > > > > in > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> popular > >> > > > Hinduism. > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Here his > >> > > intent > >> > > > is > >> > > > > > clearly not > >> > > > > > > to > >> > > > > > > > > insult, on > >> > > > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > > contrary, > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> it is to > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> declare > >> > > his > >> > > > > appreciation > >> > > > > > for > >> > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > beauty > >> > > > > > > > > of > >> > > > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> iconography > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> of popular > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Hinduism, > >> > > a > >> > > > charge > >> > > > > for > >> > > > > > which > >> > > > > > > he > >> > > > > > > > would be > >> > > > > > > > > > equally > >> > > > > > > > > > > hated by > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> both Hindu > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> as well as > >> > > > Muslim > >> > > > > > > fundamentalists. > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> It has not > >> > > been > >> > > > > noticed > >> > > > > > that > >> > > > > > > no > >> > > > > > > > Muslim > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> fundamentalist or > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> even > >> > > Muslim > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> religious > >> > > > figure has > >> > > > > come > >> > > > > > out > >> > > > > > > in > >> > > > > > > > defence > >> > > > > > > > > of > >> > > > > > > > > > > Husain. > >> They > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> are in > >> > > fact > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> in tacit > >> > > > agreement > >> > > > > with > >> > > > > > their > >> > > > > > > Hindu > >> > > > > > > > > peers. A > >> > > > > > > > > > > Muslim > >> making > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> images, > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> and that > >> > > too of > >> > > > > Hindu > >> > > > > > > goddesses, > >> > > > > > > > because > >> > > > > > > > > he > >> > > > > > > > > > is > >> > > > > > > > > > > drawn to > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> them, can > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> only be > >> > > seen as > >> > > > > blasphemy > >> > > > > > in > >> > > > > > > their > >> > > > > > > > eyes. > >> > > > > > > > > On > >> > > > > > > > > > this, > >> > > > > > > > > > > like on > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> so many > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> other > >> > > issues, > >> > > > Hindu > >> > > > > and > >> > > > > > Muslim > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> fundamentalists are > >> > > > > > > > > > > in total > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> agreement. > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Let me > >> > > come now > >> > > > to > >> > > > > an > >> > > > > > > interesting > >> > > > > > > > > > counterfactual > >> > > > > > > > > > > argument. > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> I refer to > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> the life > >> > > an > >> > > > work of > >> > > > > a > >> > > > > > little > >> > > > > > > known > >> > > > > > > > late > >> > > > > > > > > > nineteenth > >> > > > > > > > > > > century > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> and early > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> twentieth > >> > > > century > >> > > > > Urdu > >> > > > > > poet of > >> > > > > > > > Delhi > >> > > > > > > > > called > >> > > > > > > > > > Dillu > >> > > > > > > > > > > Ram > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Kausari. > >> > > Now as > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> his name > >> > > > suggests, > >> > > > > Dillu > >> > > > > > Ram > >> > > > > > > was a > >> > > > > > > > > Hindu. The > >> > > > > > > > > > > trouble > >> is, > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> throughout > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> his life > >> > > he > >> > > > composed > >> > > > > > > deliriously > >> > > > > > > > > passionate > >> > > > > > > > > > > elegies > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > (na'at) to > >> > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Prophet > >> > > > Muhammad. > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> One of his > >> > > > quatrains > >> > > > > went > >> > > > > > as > >> > > > > > > > follows > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Kuch > >> > > 'ishq e > >> > > > > Muhammad > >> > > > > > mein > >> > > > > > > nahin > >> > > > > > > > shart > >> > > > > > > > > e > >> > > > > > > > > > > Musulman! > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Hai > >> > > Kausari > >> > > > Hindu > >> > > > > bhii > >> > > > > > > talabgaar e > >> > > > > > > > > Muhammad! > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Allah re! > >> > > kyaa > >> > > > > raunaq e > >> > > > > > bazaar > >> > > > > > > e > >> > > > > > > > > Muhammad > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Ke > >> > > Ma'bood e > >> > > > Jahan > >> > > > > bhi > >> > > > > > hai > >> > > > > > > > kharidaar e > >> > > > > > >> > > Muhammad! > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Being a > >> > > Muslim > >> > > > is > >> > > > > not a > >> > > > > > > condition > >> > > > > > > > for > >> > > > > > > > > loving > >> > > > > > > > > > > Muhammad! > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Kausari, > >> > > the > >> > > > Hindu, > >> > > > > is > >> > > > > > also a > >> > > > > > > > seeker of > >> > > > > > > > > > Muhammad! > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> By Allah! > >> > > How > >> > > > > delightful > >> > > > > > is > >> > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > bazaar > >> > > > >> > > > of > >> > > > > > > > > > Muhammad > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> For the > >> > > Lord of > >> > > > the > >> > > > > > Worlds is > >> > > > > > > also > >> > > > > > > > a > >> > > > > > > > > buyer of > >> > > > > > > > > > > Muhammad! > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> This kind > >> > > of > >> > > > > sentiment > >> > > > > > shocked > >> > > > > > > both > >> > > > > > > > > Hindus > >> > > > > > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > > > > > Muslims. > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Hindus, > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> because > >> > > how > >> > > > could a > >> > > > > Hindu > >> > > > > > sing > >> > > > > > > what > >> > > > > > > > > amounted > >> > > > > > > > > > to > >> > > > > > > > > > > love > >> songs > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> to a > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Muslim > >> > > prophet, > >> > > > and > >> > > > > > Muslims, > >> > > > > > > for > >> > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > same > >> > > > > > > > > > reason. > >> > > > > > > > > > > Both felt > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> slighted > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> and > >> > > insulted by > >> > > > the > >> > > > > > > transgressive > >> > > > > > > > way in > >> > > > > > > > > > which the > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > imagination of > >> > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> poet had > >> > > > > > 'touched' the > >> > > > > > > body > >> > > > > > > > of > >> > > > > > > > > what > >> > > > > > > > > > was > >> > > > > > > > > > > sacred > >> for > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> one, and > >> > > not, > >> > > > for > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> the other. > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Another > >> > > poem, > >> > > > which > >> > > > > > proved to > >> > > > > > > be > >> > > > > > > > even > >> > > > > > > > > more > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> controversial, > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> went like > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> this - > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > Rahmatulilalamin kay > >> > > > > > Hashar > >> > > > > > > mein > >> > > > > > > > > maana' > >> > > > > > > > > > khulay > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Khalq > >> > > saari > >> > > > Shaafa e > >> > > > > Roz > >> > > > > > e > >> > > > > > > Jaza kay > >> > > > > > > > > saath hai > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Laykay > >> > > Dillu > >> > > > Raam ko > >> > > > > > jannat > >> > > > > > > mein > >> > > > > > > > jab > >> > > > > > > > > Hazrat > >> > > > > > > > > > gaye > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Ma'loom > >> > > huwa > >> > > > kay > >> > > > > Hindu > >> > > > > > bhi > >> > > > > > > > Mahboob e > >> > > > > > > > > Khuda > >> > > > > > > > > > kay > >> > > > > > > > > > > saath > >> hai! > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> The > >> > > meaning of > >> > > > > "Mercy > >> > > > > > unto > >> > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > Worlds" > >> > > > > > > > > > became > >> > > > > > > > > > > apparent > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> on > >> > > Judgement > >> > > > Day: > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> The whole > >> > > > creation > >> > > > > is > >> > > > > > with the > >> > > > > > > > > Intercessor of > >> > > >> > > > > > The > >> > > > > > > > > > > Day of > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Acquittal > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> When the > >> > > > Prophet > >> > > > > took > >> > > > > > Dillu > >> > > > > > > Ram > >> > > > > > > > with him > >> > > > > > > > > into > >> > > > > > > > > > > Paradise > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> It was > >> > > known > >> > > > that > >> > > > > this > >> > > > > > Hindu > >> > > > > > > too is > >> > > > > > > > with > >> > > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > > Beloved > >> of > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> God! > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> This poem, > >> > > > > especially > >> > > > > > > scandalized > >> > > > > > > > Muslim > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> orthodoxy, because > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> it dared > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> to suggest > >> > > that > >> > > > the > >> > > > > > prophet > >> > > > > > > himself > >> > > > > > > > > would > >> > > > > > > > > > > intercede > >> on > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> behalf of > >> > > an > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> unbeliever > >> > > on > >> > > > the > >> > > > > day of > >> > > > > > > judgement. > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> It is > >> > > > interesting to > >> > > > > note > >> > > > > > that > >> > > > > > > > Dillu Ram > >> > > > > > > > > > never > >> > > > > > > > > > > became a > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Muslim, at > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> least not > >> > > in > >> > > > his > >> > > > > > lifetime. An > >> > > > > > > > article in > >> > > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> interesting > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> web portal > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Chowk > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > http://www.chowk.com/articles/12692 by > >> > > > > > > > > > one > >> > > > > > > > > > > Asif > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Naqshbandi > >> > > says > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> "It > >> > > is > >> > > > also > >> > > > > said > >> > > > > > that > >> > > > > > > Dillu > >> > > > > > > > Ram, > >> > > > > > > > > > delirious > >> > > > > > > > > > > with his > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> love, > >> > > would > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> sometimes > >> > > stand > >> > > > in > >> > > > > the > >> > > > > > middle > >> > > > > > > of > >> > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > bazaar > >> > > > > > > > > > in > >> > > > > > > > > > > Delhi, > >> put > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> chains > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> around his > >> > > neck > >> > > > and > >> > > > > feet > >> > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > shout > >> > > > > > > > at > >> > > > > > > > > the top > >> > > > > > > > > > of > >> > > > > > > > > > > his voice > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> to all > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > passers-by, > >> > > > > "Muhammad! > >> > > > > > > Muhammad! > >> > > > > > > > > Muhammad! > >> > > > > > > > > > Yes! > >> > > > > > > > > > > Muhammad > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> is the > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Beloved of > >> > > God! > >> > > > > Muhammad > >> > > > > > is > >> > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > first > >> > > > > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > > > > only > >> > > > > > > > > > > Beloved > >> of > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> God! If > >> > > God > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> loves you, > >> > > He > >> > > > loves > >> > > > > you > >> > > > > > > because of > >> > > > > > > > His > >> > > > > > > > > > Beloved!" > >> > > > > > > > > > > Some > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> people > >> > > even > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> stoned him > >> > > and > >> > > > he > >> > > > > would > >> > > > > > often > >> > > > > > > come > >> > > > > > > > home > >> > > > > > > > > > covered in > >> > > > > > > > > > > blood > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> but he was > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> totally > >> > > lost in > >> > > > his > >> > > > > love > >> > > > > > of > >> > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > Prophet > >> > > > > > > > > > (peace and > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> blessings > >> > > be > >> > > > upon > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > him!)" > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> There is > >> > > an > >> > > > > apocryphal > >> > > > > > story > >> > > > > > > of how > >> > > > > > > > on > >> > > > > > > > > his > >> > > > > > > > > > > deathbed > >> Dillu > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Ram > >> > > Kausari > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> had a > >> > > vision of > >> > > > the > >> > > > > > Prophet > >> > > > > > > > himself, who > >> > > > > > > > > came > >> > > > > > > > > > to > >> > > > > > > > > > > him, and > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> that he > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> read the > >> > > Kalima > >> > > > with > >> > > > > him. > >> > > > > > But > >> > > > > > > as > >> > > > > > > > this > >> > > > > > > > > vision > >> > > > > > > > > > is > >> > > > > > > > > > > reported > >> to > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> have > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> appeared > >> > > only > >> > > > to > >> > > > > him, as > >> > > > > > he > >> > > > > > > lay > >> > > > > > > > dying, > >> > > > > > > > > and as > >> > > > > > > > > > he > >> > > > > > > > > > > is no > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> longer > >> > > with us > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> to either > >> > > > confirm or > >> > > > > deny > >> > > > > > this > >> > > > > > > > deathbed > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> conversion, we can > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> only > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> surmise > >> > > that it > >> > > > was > >> > > > > a > >> > > > > > > generous, but > >> > > > > > > > > somewhat > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> disingenuous > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> method of > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> having > >> > > Dillu > >> > > > > Ram's > >> > > > > > > somewhat > >> > > > > > > > > unorthodox > >> > > > > > > > > > Muslim > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> apologists > >> > > > claim him > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> for > >> > > themselves. > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> As far as > >> > > we > >> > > > are > >> > > > > > concerned, > >> > > > > > > Dillu > >> > > > > > > > Ram > >> > > > > > > > > > Kausari, > >> > > > > > > > > > > caused > >> grave > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> offence, > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> by his > >> > > love for > >> > > > the > >> > > > > > Prophet, > >> > > > > > > both > >> > > > > > > > to > >> > > > > > > > > Hindu as > >> > > > > > > > > > well > >> > > > > > > > > > > as to > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Muslim > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> zealots, > >> > > as > >> > > > long as > >> > > > > he > >> > > > > > lived. > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> If, the > >> > > things > >> > > > we > >> > > > > call > >> > > > > > > religions > >> > > > > > > > are > >> > > > > > > > > > 'ways of > >> > > > > > > > > > > life' > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> then we > >> > > can > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> always > >> > > > determine for > >> > > > > > ourselves > >> > > > > > > > whether > >> > > > > > > > > we > >> > > > > > > > > > want to > >> > > > > > > > > > > walk on a > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> one way > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> street > >> > > that > >> > > > runs > >> > > > > into a > >> > > > > > dead > >> > > > > > > end, > >> > > > > > > > or to > >> > > > > > > > > cross > >> > > > > > > > > > many > >> > > > > > > > > > > paths, > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> walking > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> down one > >> > > way, > >> > > > for > >> > > > > one > >> > > > > > purpose, > >> > > > > > > down > >> > > > > > > > > another > >> > > > > > > > > > way > >> > > > > > > > > > > for > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> another, > >> > > and > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> sometimes > >> > > just > >> > > > > standing > >> > > > > > in > >> > > > > > > between > >> > > > > > > > > paths, > >> > > > > > > > > > figuring > >> > > > > > > > > > > out our > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> journey, > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> as we go > >> > > about > >> > > > our > >> > > > > lives. > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> I find > >> > > cases > >> > > > like > >> > > > > Husain > >> > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > Dillu > >> > > > > > > > Ram > >> > > > > > > > > > Kausari > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> interesting > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> not > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> becauseof > >> > > what > >> > > > they > >> > > > > > paint of > >> > > > > > > what > >> > > > > > > > they > >> > > > > > > > > say, > >> > > > > > > > > > but > >> > > > > > > > > > > because > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> they seem > >> > > to > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> cause such > >> > > > prolonged > >> > > > > > traffic > >> > > > > > > jams > >> > > > > > > > on the > >> > > > > > > > > > 'ways > >> > > > > > > > > > > of > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> life'. > >> > > And > >> > > > all > >> > > > > they > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> were doing > >> > > was > >> > > > > crossing > >> > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > road. > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> thanks and > >> > > > regards, > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Shuddha > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> ----- > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > Shuddhabrata > >> > > > > Sengupta > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> _________________________________________ > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > reader-list: an > >> > > > open > >> > > > > > > discussion > >> > > > > > > > list on > >> > > > > > > > > media > >> > > > > > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > > > > > the city. > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Critiques > >> > > & > >> > > > > > Collaborations > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> To > >> > > subscribe: > >> > > > send > >> > > > > an > >> > > > > > email to > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net > >> > > > > > > with > >> > > > > > > > > subscribe > >> > > > > > > > > > in > >> > > > > > > > > > > the > >> subject > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> header. > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> To > >> > > unsubscribe: > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> List > >> > > archive: > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > _________________________________________ > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> reader-list: > >> > > an > >> > > > open > >> > > > > > discussion > >> > > > > > > list on > >> > > > > > > > > media and > >> > > > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > > city. > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Critiques > >> > > & > >> > > > > > Collaborations > >> > > > > > > > > > > > To > >> subscribe: > >> > > send > >> > > > an > >> > > > > email > >> > > > > > to > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net > >> > > > > with > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> subscribe in > >> > > the > >> > > > subject > >> > > > > > header. > >> > > > > > > > > > > > To > >> > > unsubscribe: > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > > > > > > > > > > > List > >> archive: > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Shuddhabrata > >> > > Sengupta > >> > > > > > > > > > > The Sarai > >> Programme > >> > > at > >> > > > CSDS > >> > > > > > > > > > > Raqs > >> Media > >> > > Collective > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> shuddha at sarai.net > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> www.sarai.net > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > _________________________________________ > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> reader-list: an > >> > > open > >> > > > > discussion > >> > > > > > list on > >> > > > > > > > media and > >> > > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > city. > >> > > > > > > > > > > Critiques > >> & > >> > > > > Collaborations > >> > > > > > > > > > > To > >> subscribe: send > >> > > an > >> > > > email > >> > > > > to > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net > >> > > > > with > >> > > > > > > subscribe > >> > > > > > > > in > >> > > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > subject > >> > > > > > > > > > > header. > >> > > > > > > > > > > To > >> unsubscribe: > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > > > > > > > > > > List > >> archive: > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > >> city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to > >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > >> header. > >> > To unsubscribe: > >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to > >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > >> header. > >> To unsubscribe: > >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From image.science at donau-uni.ac.at Fri Sep 5 13:37:06 2008 From: image.science at donau-uni.ac.at (Image Science) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2008 10:07:06 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] STIP: RUDOLF ARNHEIM SCHOLARSHIP IN THE FIELD OF MEDIA.ART.HISTORIES Message-ID: <48C104CA0200007D000067AB@gwgwia.donau-uni.ac.at> RUDOLF ARNHEIM SCHOLARSHIP IN THE FIELD OF MEDIA.ART.HISTORIES The Department for Image Science is pleased to announce a half-tuition scholarship for the Master of Arts (MA) course starting in Nov. 2008! > Rudolf Arnheim Scholarship for Media Art Histories: The Department for Image Science offers this scholarship as an encouragement to concentrate on the further development of the scientific work of the recently deceased art historian and cognition psychologist Rudolf Arnheim and his significance for the history of Media Art. Closing date for submission: Sept. 30th, 2008. Further Information: http://www.donau-uni.ac.at/mediaarthistories www.virtualart.at www.mediaarthistories.org => FIRST INTERNATIONAL MASTER OF MEDIA.ART.HISTORIES (International Faculty, low residency, parallel to employment, English language) The postgraduate program MediaArtHistories conveys the most important developments of contemporary art through a network of renowned international theorists, artists and curators like: Steve DIETZ, Erkki HUHTAMO, Lev MANOVICH, Christiane PAUL, Paul SERMON, Edward SHANKEN, Jens HAUSER, Sean CUBITT, Christa SOMMERER, Gerfried STOCKER, Knowbotic Research, Frieder NAKE, Oliver GRAU and many others. http://www.donau-uni.ac.at/en/studium/medienkunstgeschichte/06318/index.php Artists and programmers give new insights into the latest and most controversial software, interface developments and their interdisciplinary and intercultural praxis. Keywords are: Strategies of Interaction & Interface Design, Social Software, Immersion & Emotion and Artistic Invention. Using online databases and other modern aids, knowledge of computer animation, net art, interactive, telematic and genetic art as well as the most recent reflections on nano art, CAVE installations, augmented reality and wearables are introduced. Historical derivations that go far back into art and media history are tied in intriguing ways to digital art. Important approaches and methods from Image Science, Media Archaeology and the History of Science & Technology will be discussed. => DANUBE UNIVERSITY KREMS – located in the UNESCO world heritage Wachau is the first public university in Europe which specializes in advanced continuing education offering low-residency degree programs for working professionals and lifelong learners. With its new modular courses the DEPARTMENT FOR IMAGE SCIENCE at Danube University Krems offers an educational program unique in Europe. Without interrupting their career, students have the opportunity to learn through direct, hands-on experience, social learning in small groups and contacts with labs and industry. They gain key qualifications for the contemporary art and media marketplace. http://www.donau-uni.ac.at/en/studium/medienkunstgeschichte/10365/index.php The Center in Monastery Göttweig, where most MediaArtHistories courses take place, is housed in a 14th century building, remodeled to fit the needs of modern research in singular surroundings. International experts analyze the image worlds of art, science, politics and economy and elucidate how they originated, became established and how they have stood the test of time. The innovative approach at the Department for Image Science is reinforced by praxis-oriented study. Contact: Sabine Weber, MSc. Department for Image Science Danube University Krems Dr.-Karl-Dorrek-Str. 30, A-3500 Krems Tel: +43(0)2732 893-2569 sabine.weber at donau-uni.ac.at www.donau-uni.ac.at/dis From image.science at donau-uni.ac.at Fri Sep 5 13:37:24 2008 From: image.science at donau-uni.ac.at (Image Science) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2008 10:07:24 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] STIP: RUDOLF ARNHEIM SCHOLARSHIP IN THE FIELD OF MEDIA.ART.HISTORIES Message-ID: <48C104DC0200007D000067B2@gwgwia.donau-uni.ac.at> RUDOLF ARNHEIM SCHOLARSHIP IN THE FIELD OF MEDIA.ART.HISTORIES The Department for Image Science is pleased to announce a half-tuition scholarship for the Master of Arts (MA) course starting in Nov. 2008! > Rudolf Arnheim Scholarship for Media Art Histories: The Department for Image Science offers this scholarship as an encouragement to concentrate on the further development of the scientific work of the recently deceased art historian and cognition psychologist Rudolf Arnheim and his significance for the history of Media Art. Closing date for submission: Sept. 30th, 2008. Further Information: http://www.donau-uni.ac.at/mediaarthistories www.virtualart.at www.mediaarthistories.org => FIRST INTERNATIONAL MASTER OF MEDIA.ART.HISTORIES (International Faculty, low residency, parallel to employment, English language) The postgraduate program MediaArtHistories conveys the most important developments of contemporary art through a network of renowned international theorists, artists and curators like: Steve DIETZ, Erkki HUHTAMO, Lev MANOVICH, Christiane PAUL, Paul SERMON, Edward SHANKEN, Jens HAUSER, Sean CUBITT, Christa SOMMERER, Gerfried STOCKER, Knowbotic Research, Frieder NAKE, Oliver GRAU and many others. http://www.donau-uni.ac.at/en/studium/medienkunstgeschichte/06318/index.php Artists and programmers give new insights into the latest and most controversial software, interface developments and their interdisciplinary and intercultural praxis. Keywords are: Strategies of Interaction & Interface Design, Social Software, Immersion & Emotion and Artistic Invention. Using online databases and other modern aids, knowledge of computer animation, net art, interactive, telematic and genetic art as well as the most recent reflections on nano art, CAVE installations, augmented reality and wearables are introduced. Historical derivations that go far back into art and media history are tied in intriguing ways to digital art. Important approaches and methods from Image Science, Media Archaeology and the History of Science & Technology will be discussed. => DANUBE UNIVERSITY KREMS – located in the UNESCO world heritage Wachau is the first public university in Europe which specializes in advanced continuing education offering low-residency degree programs for working professionals and lifelong learners. With its new modular courses the DEPARTMENT FOR IMAGE SCIENCE at Danube University Krems offers an educational program unique in Europe. Without interrupting their career, students have the opportunity to learn through direct, hands-on experience, social learning in small groups and contacts with labs and industry. They gain key qualifications for the contemporary art and media marketplace. http://www.donau-uni.ac.at/en/studium/medienkunstgeschichte/10365/index.php The Center in Monastery Göttweig, where most MediaArtHistories courses take place, is housed in a 14th century building, remodeled to fit the needs of modern research in singular surroundings. International experts analyze the image worlds of art, science, politics and economy and elucidate how they originated, became established and how they have stood the test of time. The innovative approach at the Department for Image Science is reinforced by praxis-oriented study. Contact: Sabine Weber, MSc. Department for Image Science Danube University Krems Dr.-Karl-Dorrek-Str. 30, A-3500 Krems Tel: +43(0)2732 893-2569 sabine.weber at donau-uni.ac.at www.donau-uni.ac.at/dis From ishwarsridharan at yahoo.com Fri Sep 5 13:59:48 2008 From: ishwarsridharan at yahoo.com (Ishwar) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 01:29:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Killing Kashmiris by Comparison Message-ID: <407928.20104.qm@web31804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> While I agree with a considerable number of your points, I believe that you're reading too much into symbolisms. While you see Nehru standing on top of the Mughal's Red Fort and unfurling the flag with Ashoka's _chakra_ as a continuation of the Mauryan empire, I see it as a symbolic act of synthesis of the two cultures. Where you see Gandhi's _charka_ being replaced by Ashoka's circle as a signal that plans to take you back to the Hindu ages. I see it as an issue of representation. Gandhi's faction wasn't the only one that fought the struggle for independence, and putting his symbol would epitomise his faction as the only one that contributed to independence of the then fledgling nation. _Dharam Chakra_ , a widely regarded symbol of justice by Hindus and Buddhists was adopted because justice is more universal. One could've place Hammurabi's code of laws, but that's too far removed, geographically. While reading, and sometimes inventing symbolisms can be quite entertaining and creative, one should also admit that there are other, more plausible explanations for these symbolisms. Coming to "people having a say on the formation of the union", while it's a noble thought,it's constrained by practical limitations. What's the winning percentage in a plebiscite? 50%? 66.6%? 90%? 99.99% ? Does this mean that the remaining 10% should give up their ancestral lands and move to a different nation because they didn't want to be part of the nation? Coming to the third point, the one on indian nation being a secular masquerade for a hindu empire, I believe you are, in one fell sweep, brushing aside geogrpahy under the carpet. All the "sacred" places under the umbrella of hinduism fall under the geographical boundaries on india. While increasing number of pilgrims to Haji Ali, Mecca, Lahore will not be attributed to increasing religiosity of the people because they're geographically separated, increasing number of pilgrims to vaishno devi, assam and rameshwaram will constitue hindu nationalism, without taking into account the fact that this is the only geography where "holy" sites of this religion might be found. Ishwar Just another resurrected Neozoic Archosaur comics. http://www.flickr.com/photos/mojosaurus/sets/72157600257724083/ ----- Original Message ---- From: Junaid To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Friday, September 5, 2008 11:47:47 AM Subject: [Reader-list] Killing Kashmiris by ComparisonWhil The debate "Nationalism vs. Separatism" on NDTV last week looked promising in the beginning, because for once the host, Barkha Dutt, keeping aside her usual national-security mindset, began by asking some pertinent questions, and the academic voices in the panel set the tenor of the debate right. Given, however, NDTV's habit of pulling together a big crowd of relevant and irrelevant speakers, the debate lost track and sank into a pointless and an all-too-familiar noise. This noise, let it be said, works perfectly well for Indian establishment because it gives them a chance to say, "Look, we give 'em an opportunity to speak; what a great democracy we are!", and yet Kashmiris, as inarticulate as they are, come off sounding tired and tedious; their voices lost in the din. Sunil Khilnani, who is a US-based academic, put the question right where it must. The trouble is with the idea of India itself, in the way it seeks to run roughshod over different identities and affiliations with its singular, homogenous Indian identity. The point, in fact, goes even further, one which Khilnani did not (could not get a chance to) speak about. The real problem is the twin construction of India and of Hinduism as organic wholes—territorial consolidation of one, and the 'semiticization' of the other—with the former acting as the sacred space where the latter, the sacred community, must act itself out. That there was nothing called "India" or "Hinduism" before the Brahmanical elite and their British colonial masters drew from each other, entirely in self-interest, to engineer these territorial and cultural monoliths, has not been in much popular discussion. Both concepts are so naturalized and consecrated in public consciousness that questioning them is tantamount to blasphemy. In its present shape India is actually an empire which is masquerading as a modern state. The Indian rhetoric of "secular nationalism" has acted as a liberal cover in international fora for a swelling Hindu *imperium*, which was territorially achieved in 1947; Indian elite has gratefully allowed the use, and continuous manufacture, of a Hindu civilizational self-identity to justify the empire. Khilnani spoke only a little about the idea of India; he did not stretch his argument to reflect on how the Hindu consciousness underlines the idea of Indian nationalism; yet even the preliminary remark that there are a number of nationalisms jostling for recognition within the territorial space of the Indian state is appreciable. It, at least, gave a lie to the binary of the show's name: "Nationalism" vs. "Separatism". To give due recognition to Kashmiri nationalism has been unthinkable in India, so they call it by other names: separatism, terrorism, extremism, and* pro-Pakistanism*. In an earlier show, on the same TV channel, Swapan Dasgupta, a rightwing columnist for The Pioneer, in fact, criticized the host of the show for allegedly affording a *moral*-equivalence to "Kashmiri separatists" on par the "Jammu nationalists" (the host was in no way doing that). No one asked Dasgupta as to why Indian nationalism should be a touchstone of morality. But this becomes easier to explain once we realize how Indian nationalism has become akin to a religious faith and India a god worthy of worship. It is important here to reflect briefly upon the original issue of the *Amarnath Yatra* to illustrate the point about *Indian nationalism as a religious faith in the service of the Hindu empire*. Let me not speak of how India's political elite goaded, duped, threatened, and forced the peoples of different regions of British India and the princely states to merge with India; it was the same process through which Kashmir was *annexed*. Let me not speak, too, of how *most* people of the subcontinent that were called "We, the People of India" had virtually no say in the formation of what was called the "Union". Let me just say that Nehru inherited an empire from the British, and he wanted to consolidate his spoils by making it look like a state. Not for nothing did he stand atop the Red Fort (a symbol of the Mughal empire), on August 16, 1947, with a flag that no longer had Gandhi's *Charkha*, but Ashoka's *Chakra* (a symbol of the Mauryan empire)—an act to declare continuity with past empires of the subcontinent. Nehru was touted as a secular democrat, but one can find plenty of evidence to show how he gave in to the inexorable march of the Hindu nationalists, many of whom decked his own cabinet. The *rebuilding* of the Somnath temple, to assuage the feelings of the Hindu nation "*for until then they would not think that the real freedom had come" *(the words of Vallabhbhai Patel), was just a starter. Hindu nationalism, which ran amok over, what Ashis Nandy has called "the little cultures of Hinduism", actually came in handy in the drive to turn the empire into a state. Hindu pilgrimages were boosted to this end; new places to worship were found and given nationalistic appeal. Issues like Ram's birthplace, and in recent times 'Hanuman's bridge to Lanka' (the Sethusamudaram) were made national issues to rally a fictitious nation around fictitious symbols. In short, a sacred geography for Hindus was outlined where it did not exist. India became synonymous with *Bharat Mata*, the territorial Hindu deity to be worshipped through *deshbhakhti*. Kashmir, which is called "the secular crown of India" without any hint of shame or irony, was actually imagined as "the crown of *Bharat Mata*", and only so because the crown of the bejeweled image of Bharat Mata, often juxtaposed against the map of India, was where Kashmir was. Kashmir in the same vein also became the *atoot ang* (an unbreakable body-part) of the anthropomorphic goddess Mother India. The Amarnath issue stems from here. By bringing in millions of Hindus from across India, facilitating their travel, increasing the number of pilgrimage months, and trying to create permanent bases for them, the state seeks to firmly place Kashmir within the Hindu imagination, as another point on the sacred map of *Bharat Mata*. By doing so, Kashmir ceases to be the land of Kashmiris, but becomes an abode of *Baba Bole Nath*. The consolidation of this vision, along with parallel efforts to invent ancient Kashmiri links to India (read the debates on the Institute of Kashmir Studies), in effect seeks to integrate Kashmir with India in its Hindu sense. What else can explain the comical demand of Jammu Hindus that their lost honour could be regained only if Kashmiri land is given to them (perhaps the entire Kashmir should be given to them in lieu of their lost Dogra honour!), and what else can explain the whole of India, the state *and* the nation, rallying behind Jammu Hindus? Despite the spin Indian strategists gave the recent protests that they are an issue between Jammuites and Kashmiris (remember the monstrous lie about discrimination), or however much space the Indian media gives protests in Jammu as compared to the mammoth pro-Independence rallies in Kashmir, the fact of the matter remains, it is India, in its true Hindu colours, that is strutting in front of the powerless Kashmiri nation. I, for one, was not a wee bit surprised to see the saffron Hindu flags getting replaced by Indian flags in Hindu protests in Jammu, and chants of "*Bam Bam Bole*" and "*Bharat Mata ki Jai*" being raised together. I am not surprised to see Muslim Kashmiris getting killed by the dozen in protest marches or massive military clampdowns on peaceful rallies, or bullet injuries sustained by thousands of Kashmiris—many in India (like Tavleen Singh) wonder why the government isn't actually pushing Kashmiris, sans Kashmir, into Pakistan. Marches in Jammu, by comparison, look like a party, what with soldiers standing around for photo-ops. No one has been killed in Jammu city in any kind of police action, even though many protestors went on a rampage, and attacked, injured and forced out many Muslims of the region. Despite the easy protests in Jammu, the government looked desperate to talk to the Amarnath Sangharsh Samiti, and scrambled a committee comprising a Kashmiri Pandit and a few Jammu Hindu bureaucrats. The "talks", which looked like a family affair, ended with government respectfully and expectedly giving Kashmiri land to the Amarnath Shrine Board for exclusive use for three months each year (for the only months the land could be used anyway). The government, shamelessly, put out advertisements suggesting it consulted political parties and the civil society of Kashmir before stealing their land; one wonders when, during its brutal clampdowns and large-scale arrests, did government find time to consult Kashmiris? Or, is Farooq Abdullah again the sole spokesman of Kashmiris? This brings us back to the NDTV debate and the very intriguing answer that an ex-military person (one of those irrelevant speakers on the debate on nationalism) gave to a question from the audience as to why the army kills so many Kashmiris. His answer: Kashmiris get killed because they happen to be at *the scene of action*. How can you argue with such a reply? One might say that perhaps Kashmiris get killed because the action happens on them, that their bodies *are* the scenes of action. His answer, in any case, derailed the debate, an attempt which Mani Aiyar of the Indian National Congress was also making by trying to take the argument away from Kashmir toward the "North-east" (I put Northeast in apostrophes because this description links it cartographically to India, when I think the region is closer to southeast Asia). Aiyar's insistence on talking about *other*places is not different from all those noises with which Kashmiris are silenced by drawing contrasts to violence in other places: "so many get killed in Bihar", "so many rapes happen in Delhi", what are you Kashmiris whining about? (It is a separate matter that nationalist Indians inadvertently, thus, equate their state with criminals of Bihar and rapists of Delhi).Though issues in Nagaland, Manipur, etc. are similar to Kashmir, in the sense that they too emerge from the rather predatory "idea of India", but Aiyar was using it to suggest, rather bald-facedly, that there are other people demanding independence, what are you Kashmiris whining about. Let us call it, for the sake of a better phrase, killing (occupying) Kashmiris by comparison. It is also time we put to rest the phrase "Autonomy". Kashmiris don't want autonomy. Even National Conference, its original votary, does not look enthusiastic about the word any longer after its much-fêted proposal was consigned to the dustbin in Delhi without even a discussion. The point is Kashmir *had* autonomy; that is where India started with Kashmir. When the NC says they want to go back to the pre-1953 status, it automatically means that Kashmiris were there once. For all these years India has slowly gnawed it into shreds. Going back to that political status will mean trusting India over something of which it has proved totally untrustworthy. Who wants to give India another try for another 62 years? Perhaps, the NC? Aiyar, at his noisy best, kept saying *ad nauseam*, that the Kashmiri "separatists" should participate in elections to prove their representative character, forgetting in the process an entire ignominious history of rigged elections in Kashmir. Those "mainstream" parties that India sees as representing Kashmiris cannot, by their own admission,bring so many Kashmiris out on the streets as pro-Independence leaders have in Kashmir over the last many years. And this is despite the presence of 700 thousand Indian soldiers to muzzle Kashmiris. If one sixth of the Kashmiri nation is out on the streets on a given day demanding Independence, one can imagine the level of support and endorsement the "separatists" command. How many people joined the Quit India marches at the height of India's independence struggle? A lakh? Two? India says Kashmiris are confused; that they don't know what they want. India describes the *need* for Kashmir's freedom as an *aspiration*, a Kashmiri desire. Kashmiris, however, are talking to them as straight as possible. When a million Kashmiri voices rose together in August 2008, they told India something quite uncomplicated: leave. ** _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Fri Sep 5 14:44:05 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 14:44:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Hindu organizations deplore govt hypocrisy on Kashmir Message-ID: <6353c690809050214n40f55bcavc840d311c73c63f2@mail.gmail.com> *Hindu organizations deplore govt hypocrisy on Kashmir **Thursday, 09.04.2008, 03:13am (GMT-7) * India Post News Service - http://indiapost.com/article/communitypost/3757/ FREMONT: Over 500 Hindus assembled in the Fremont temple last week to listen to prominent speakers belonging to 17 organizations of their concern at the continuing unhappy situation in the state of Jammu & Kashmir. Community members in the audience were very saddened and frustrated by the situation in Jammu and Kashmir State and responded very loudly and in one voice to the four resolutions which were presented for their consideration by FIA president Dr Romesh Japra. A White Paper was submitted to the media at the Press Conference, which was held after the meeting with public. The press conference was initiated by International Kashmir Federation (IKF), global organization of Kashmiri Hindus. The White Paper said, "It is because of these individuals and organizations that International Kashmir Federation (IKF) has been able to place Kashmir and Kashmiri Hindu plight on the map of the US, by letting factual reasons for Kashmiri Hindu exodus in 1989/90 known to mainstream community and constantly educating the US State Department, lawmakers and policy makers, about the distortions and concoctions which the enemies of India and civilized society have been portraying about Kashmir. Over 350,000 Kashmiri Hindus, also called Pandits, had to flee for their lives after thousands of them were murdered in cold blood by the Islamic terrorists in early 1990. Even after 19 years, they are still living like refugees in their own country. Alas, the Government of India is sleeping and silent!" the White Paper said. It added, "Kashmir once again has been turned upside down by the Kashmiri Muslims in the wake of their conspiracy against the official attempts to build temporary shelters to facilitate the pilgrimage of Hindus visiting the world famous Amarnath Cave of Lord Shiva. The wild protests in the Kashmir valley to the temporary lease of forestland to Shri Amar Nath Shrine Board (SASB) makes a sad and painful portrayal of the exclusivist, and illogical mindset that rules the roost in Kashmir. The well-planned and calculated yet gruesome attacks of terror that struck the heart of India between July 25 and July 26 left scores of people dead, leaving behind a trail of destruction. The serial bomb blasts that were triggered by the Islamic terrorist groups in more than two dozen significant places including Bangalore, India's Silicon Valley and Ahmedabad, the capitol of the economically prosperous state of Gujarat, within a span of 24 hours, were intentionally aimed at breaking the resolve of the Indian people to fight terror in all its forms. "The hideous nature of the attackers is evident from the fact that they chose to attack even the hospitals where grievously injured were being treated. These unprecedented and oft repeated terrorist acts are nothing short of attacks on humanity and the citadels of civilized world. Terrorism knows no boundaries or nationalities. It is a menace that needs to be uprooted. The international body and the world community need to unequivocally condemn these dastardly acts and not remain mute spectators. "The organizations, signatory to this Brief, are taking the opportunity to highlight the Jammu and Kashmiri Hindu victims of terrorism who have been denied the basic human right of worship and denied appropriate facilities to the Hindu pilgrims to Amarnath Shrine. "In direct violations of the Constitution of India and the United Nations Charter, the Kashmiri politicians are denying the basic human right of worship to Hindus. They are also purposely creating an atmosphere of uncertainty and insecurity so that like Hindus and Sikhs of Kashmir region, the Hindus of Jammu and adjoining cities feel extremely unsafe and helpless and are forced to leave their homes and hearths en masse. The second version of exodus of the non-Muslim minorities from the Jammu region is seen by fundamentalists as a new opportunity of land and property grab in the ongoing civilization war. This is also aimed to expand the plan of Islamic colonization of Kashmir beyond the territory of the valley of Kashmir. "Today, Kashmir is being openly and boldly divested of its Hindu heritage and is being made more Islamic by changing names of the places and rewriting history. Denying Sri Amarnath Board land for the pilgrimage is manifestation of this Kashmiri Muslim politician's mind-set and historic intent to cleanse Kashmir of non-Muslim symbols. "Are we aware of the amenities provided to Haj yatris by the Govt. of India? Do we know how many corers of rupees Government of India pays for Haj subsidies? Why should Kashmiri Muslims oppose giving better amenities to Amarnath Yatris? Why do Kashmiri Muslims consider Hindus as trespassers and would allow them only as visitors? Why can't Kashmiri Muslims tolerate their own Kashmiri Hindu brethren with whom they have lived for centuries? "This struggle has exposed the ugly communal face of separatist forces operating in the state. The agitation in Jammu has also torn down the veil of hypocrisy of Government of India. Behind this veil the Government of India has always concealed its preferences to surrender to Muslim communalism. "The expressions of the Muslim leaders in Valley and mobilization of people behind fundamentalist and communal banners once again vindicates our stand that the political class in Valley continues to reject co-existence as a cardinal principal of life." the White Paper continues to read. All the organizations and the 500 community members present supported the demands of Amarnath Shrine Board Sangharsh Committee in Jammu. FIA President Dr Romesh Japra initiated the move to pass four resolutions with the consent of the all those present at Fremont Hindu Temple. Over 500 unanimously affirmed "Aye" when Dr Japra read aloud the following resolutions: First: Abrogate Article 370, special status denying Indian citizens ownership of land in their own country whereas all Kashmiris can live and own property in any part of India. Second: Demanding that the Indian Government, launch an all out war against all brands of terrorists in the country and cut their life support systems. It must also warn of dire consequences against the in and outside sources, agencies and countries that support these terrorist adventures; Third: Call upon all the nationalist and patriotic organizations in the country for putting up a united front against these subversives. They must also declare their unwavering resolve for combating and defeating all attempts at fundamentalization and Talibanization of India. They must commit themselves for maintaining the real secular character of India in which all communities have opportunity and freedom to perform their justifiable roles; Fourth: Government of India should desist from any maneuvers to accord legitimacy to any form of Muslim separatism be it secession to Pakistan, Independence, shared sovereignty or autonomy. All speakers lambasted the Government of India for its inaction and double standards. They said India's true potential as a pluralistic democracy can be realized when all people live under uniform laws, and no state enjoys special privileges that excludes others. The youth in the audience were energized and formed a committee, to get involved in campaigning against the atrocities met by the victims in Jammu and Kashmir State. A meeting will be held in the temple on September 4 to plan future activities. The White Paper and the proceeds of the meeting in the temple are being mailed to US lawmakers and to Government officials in India. A copy is also being sent to the Embassy of India and local consulate along with United Nations. *SUJATA SINGH* From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Fri Sep 5 14:47:15 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 14:47:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri forum stages rally in Toronto Message-ID: <6353c690809050217p7b4ae34x343f7b1a5f60b89c@mail.gmail.com> *Kashmiri forum stages rally* Wednesday September 3 2008 Link - http://www.southasianfocus.ca/community/article/55760 The Indo-Canadian Kashmir Forum (ICKF) and Kashmiri Overseas Association of Canada (KOAC) held a successful rally in Toronto outside the Indian consul-general's office over the weekend, to highlight the plight of the aboriginal people of Kashmir, the Kashmiri Hindus and Sikhs, who they say were driven out of the valley by armed Islamic fundamentalists in January 1990. Demonstrators holding placards and banners expressed their concern over the Indian government's indifference towards their plight and demanded they be given the Internally Displaced Peoples (IDP) status that will pave the way for their political empowerment in the state legislature. "These Kashmiri aboriginals continue to live in refugee camps in Jammu, Udhampur and Delhi regions and are scattered all over the country, and the Government of India continues to call them 'migrants' in official documentation," noted Dr. Ashok Koul, president, ICKF, in a written statement. "The placards highlighted the ethnic cleansing aspect of Hindus and Sikhs by Islamists, and reiterated they were forced to leave the land of their ancestors at gunpoint, and that they did not leave on their own accord as the word 'migrants' would suggest." Reiterating their demand of safe return to Kashmir with honour and dignity, volunteers and activists chanted slogans to assert that aboriginal Kashmiris were the founding members of the 8,000-year-old Indian civilization. Koul hoped India will address the demands of Kashmiri Hindus and reserve legislative assembly seats for the displaced community while in exile. He also urged Muslims in the valley to not support fundamentalist views. The ICKF president also condemned the role of certain Kashmiri separatist and "pseudo-secularist" politicians from the valley in engaging in false propaganda, including certain organizations and their supporters living in Canada. Agreement Commenting on the latest developments, Kanayalal Raina, who has a deep understanding of the issue and is himself a Kashmiri Pandit, observed: "Fortunately this weekend's agreement between the Jammu and Kashmir government and the Shri Amarnath Yatra Sangharsh Samiti (SAYSS) is the first bit of good news to come out of the troubled Jammu region, which has been witnessing violent protests for the past 64 days, with even more unfortunate repercussions in the Kashmir valley." He hoped that with the core issue out of the way, other irritants would be sorted out amicably. "The government has agreed to set aside 40 hectares of land at Baltal and Domail without any payment to allow the shrine board to make temporary use of it during the yatra period. While the exclusive use of the land has been given to the board, what must be underlined is that the proprietary status, ownership and title of the land shall not undergo any change. The board will use the land for the duration of the yatra, including the period of making the required arrangements and winding these up. "The Jammu agreement has shown that all issues can be settled amicably across the table, once reason, and not passion, comes to prevail," Raina added. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Fri Sep 5 14:57:25 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 14:57:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Who are the killers ? Message-ID: <6b79f1a70809050227t54ed5dy5dba8eb00c202343@mail.gmail.com> http://www.hindu.com/2008/09/05/stories/2008090556951200.htm *Strains among Kashmir secessionists reaching the breaking point * SRINAGAR: Strains among secessionist leaders in Jammu and Kashmir have reached the breaking point in the wake of a wiretap operation which shows that hardline Islamists have been lobbying terrorists for help to intimidate their more moderate counterparts. Tehreek-i-Hurriyat leader Masrat Alam Bhat, the August 21 police wiretap shows, complained to the Hizb ul-Mujahideen's Pakistan-based chief that efforts to accelerate the pace of anti-India mass mobilisation were being sabotaged by a group of spoilers seeking dialogue with the Union government. Jammu and Kashmir police sources said that a tape of the conversation had been circulated to all top All Parties Hurriyat Conference leaders, including its chairman, Mirwaiz Umar Farooq. In the tape of the intercepted August 21 conversation, Alam — who was arrested by the Jammu and Kashmir police after a fortnight-long hunt on Thursday — criticises the pro-dialogue group led Mirwaiz Farooq, who he derogatorily refers to as the "bachccha maulvi," or "baby cleric." He also names Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front chief Yasin Malik, identified sarcastically as "Gandhi," as another key pro-dialogue spoiler. Some of Alam's harshest invective is reserved for the APHC's leading pro-dialogue dove, Abdul Gani Butt. Alam asks the Hizb ul-Mujahideen chief to "take action" against Butt, who he identifies as "tambakoowala." or "the tobacconist," in a sardonic reference to his heavy smoking. In the evident belief that Alam is advocating Butt's assassination, Shah replies that such an action would discredit the Hizb ul-Mujahideen. Alam then clarified that he wanted the Hizb ul-Mujahideen chief to ask Butt's backers in Pakistan to exert pressure on him. Alam praises two APHC members — People's League leader Shabbir Shah and Jammu Kashmir National Front chief Nayeem Ahmad Khan — for supporting Geelani and the Tehreek. Later in the conversation, Alam claims that three members of the pro-dialogue faction —Mirwaiz Farooq, Sajjad Lone and Malik — met with National Security Adviser M.K. Narayanan during his August 19 visit to Srinagar. He also asserts that Lone flew to New Delhi with the NSA. Neither allegation, highly placed government sources said, was true — but illustrates in stark relief the levels of mistrust between the two secessionist groups. Although the APHC has refused to comment on the contents of the tape, informed sources in the secessionist group said that the Alam-Shah conversation had inflamed its leadership. APHC sources said that at a meeting at Mirwaiz Farooq's Nigeen home on Wednesday an incensed Butt threatened to issue a public letter accusing Pakistan of harbouring terrorists. Bilal Lone, for his part, demanded that Mirwaiz Farooq review the APHC's alliance with the Tehreek. From db at dannybutt.net Fri Sep 5 15:43:37 2008 From: db at dannybutt.net (Danny Butt) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 22:13:37 +1200 Subject: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0809040209x36039c0fjde7275560b7eb74a@mail.gmail.com> References: <47e122a70809030644g483a5b2en985bbcd466c44c9b@mail.gmail.com> <319517.61062.qm@web51407.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <47e122a70809031030l8c80ad2p2699cebbeb999893@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809040209x36039c0fjde7275560b7eb74a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B78567A-0D07-4FC3-98FF-8A26707FF690@dannybutt.net> Kia ora all I've also been learning a lot from the recent discussion, as I try to map these conversations back onto the very different cultural histories (though equally fragmented perhaps, if less recently as bloody) here in Aotearoa New Zealand. Having seen a huge retrospective of Picasso's work (and collection) close to my hometown recently, I couldn't help but be struck by the fact that while it might be true that, as Yousuf says, "Picasso probably never had people killing each others angered by his paintings", it is nevertheless equally true that his work is unthinkable without the death that accompanied the European colonisation of Africa and the Pacific. The works in his collection acquired from those regions seem to take on additional significance when read in light of that history. So perhaps the question of time, where we sequence events and consequences to say "this causes this", becomes inverted and displaced in situations where the affect seems to precede the event of production. In some respects, when hurt is experienced, the potential of that hurt seems to have been structured in advance. This was just one of the thoughts brought to mind by Aarti's very productive questions. While I am not really fluent enough in the specific issues which prompted this discussion to comment more specifically, I would like to share a quote from a writer that I have learnt a lot from about the issues Aarti raises, which I think does speak to the recent discussions on the list. "The exposed traumas of workers in ongoing extreme conditions do not generally induce more than mourning on the part of the state and the public culture to whose feeling-based opinions the state is said to respond. Mourning is what happens when a grounding object is lost, is dead, no longer living (to you). Mourning is an experience of irreducible boundedness: I am here, I am living. He is dead, I am mourning. It is a beautiful, not sublime, experience of emancipation: mourning supplies the subject the definitional perfection of a being no longer in flux. It takes place over a distance: even if the object who induces the feeling of loss and helplessness is neither dead nor at any great distance from where you are. In other words, mourning can also be an act of aggression, of social deathmaking: it can perform the evacuation of significance from actually-existing subjects. Even when liberals do it, one might say, "others" are ghosted for a good cause. The sorrow songs of scandal that sing of the exploitation that is always "elsewhere" (even a few blocks away) are in this sense aggressively songs of mourning. Play them backward, and the military march of capitalist triumphalism (The Trans-Nationale) can be heard. Its lyric, currently crooned by every organ of record in the United States, is about necessity. It exhorts citizens to understand that the "bottom line" of national life is neither utopia nor freedom but survival, which can only be achieved by a citizenry that eats its anger, makes no unreasonable claims on resources or control over value, and uses its most creative energy to cultivate intimate spheres while scrapping a life together flexibly in response to the market world's caprice." Lauren Berlant, "The Subject of True Feeling: Pain, Privacy, and Politics", in Austin Sarat and Thomas R. Kearns (eds.) Cultural Pluralism, Identity Politics, and the Law. Ann Arbor: University of Michigan Press. 1999. (In the notes for this paragraph Berlant references Douglas Crimp and the politics of AIDS in the US: "Crimp is especially astute on the necessary articulation of sentimentality and politics: because processes of legitimation cannot do without the production of consent, and empathetic misrecognition is one tactic for creating it. The question is how, and at what cost, different kinds of subjects and contexts of empathy are imagined in the struggle for radical social transformation.") I'd be happy to forward a PDF of Berlant's article to anyone who is interested in these questions of subjectivity, affect, and public recognition. Cheers, Danny -- http://www.dannybutt.net On 4/09/2008, at 9:09 PM, Aarti Sethi wrote: > A few thoughts on an interesting discussion. > > One term I think that has remained unexamined in this discussion is > "hurt" > or "sentiment". By this I mean not an assessment of whether that > hurt is > justified, valid etc, who is to decide whether this offends or not, > whether > this is offensive or not, the relative self-sufficiency of value > systems and > speaking across them. But the inherent value of hurt as a positive > force in > itself. Let me try and explain what I mean. > > Why is "hurt sentiment" a bad thing in itself? Can having one's > sentiments > hurt, sometimes quite badly, not be a positive force? Might it not > impell me > to re-think, or think, about my sentiments in a manner that is > creative? > Maybe those sentiments are better discarded. Maybe my outrage alerts > me to a > violence I have been commiting without realising it. Maybe if more > people's > sentiments were outraged a little more forcefully, then we would be > living > in a far more democratic and tolerant world. > > Further, I do not see why only religious communities have a monopoly > on > sentiments which can then be hurt. As a feminist, my sentiments are > assaulted on a routine and regular basis. As someone who believes in a > version of social justice and equality, once articulated by, but not > only > by, Marx for instance, my feelings are continually trampled over. As > someone > who believes in a secular vision, the discussions on this list > offend me > everyday. However i do not see this being taken very seriously. And it > needn't, that is the point. It is up to me to alchemize this > outrage, hurt, > sadness in a manner that enables me to live and act in the world. > > This is actually how we live our lives generally. My mother, or > father, or > lover, or friend might say something that hurts me terribly. Not > always is > this clarified, discussed, put in its right perspective. All our > lives are > all littered with silent archives of hurts we have never expressed. > There is > no heroic moment in which resolution is sought for hurts. And no one > can do > this for anyone... > > The recent Vogue advertisements doing the rounds, around which there > has > been some discussion on this list, have hurt the sentiments of many > people. > A few years ago another set of advertisements for brand equity in > which two > tribal women are shown discussing the tans they have got in Monte > Carlo to > an accompanying snide and contemptous copy which said something > about how > advertisers need to accurately reach their consumers, also outraged > many of > us. Having thought about this, I realised that though both the Vogue > ads and > the brand equity ads trouble me, they do so in different ways. > > The Vogue ads can be read in one of many ways - that it posits a > horizon of > desire that is unachievable for the people it uses for the ad. In > some sense > then the frisson of the ad derives from the discrepancy in what is > desired > and what is possible. Further it assumes that their horizon of > desire will > follow the trajectory laid out by Vogue. But most interesting to me > is that > both Vogue and the critics work with a fixed definition of poverty > in the > first place, and certain trajectory of the direction a life can take. > > The second set of ads function on precisely the opposite principle. > Rather > than positing an eventual horizon of desire, they deem a present > life as > failed, and urges us to recognise its failure. It presumes and makes > me > complicit in a social consensus in which we can use languages in a > manner as > if we are all agreed on the terms in operation. > > Can you see the difference in both ads? They both trouble me deeply, > but > they trouble me in different ways. How is this at all useful, or > valuable? I > think it is. I think to be able to carefully work through how and > why and in > what ways something arrives to me and what it disturbs is a critical > thing, > if we are to fashion any sort of language to deal with the violence > of the > present. > > with regards > Aarti > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 11:00 PM, inder salim > wrote: > >> dear yousuf >> >> thanks for response. >> >> no i dont agree that people are killing each other because Hussain >> painted this or that, People want to kill people and there is always >> an excuse available. We will always not blame people for that >> because >> people have ceased to be people with their existential choice to be ' >> being-in-itself'. Prime symbols of our society have perhaps >> cultivated bad tastes because of a deep bourgiouse-captilist-fascist >> leanings. We are indeed in a deep mess. For example, Sudhir Kakkar >> talks about how unresolved sexuality has a deep relationship with >> violence. Now who is the culprit. At least Artists are trying to >> heal >> themselves. let them, even if people are not healed... >> >> about what is good to society ? Stalin's USSR did this mistake and >> killed lot of intellectuals poets and artists, Theortically what, >> poets are artists were doing at time had little relevance to the >> times >> ' of bolshivik ' but in the end we can see how wrong was that policy >> of actually believing what is good for society and what is not. We >> need to provide a space to everything for everybody. >> >> People like TV reality and other such heaps of trash....., how much >> we can carry is seriously with us, you know better, at least i cant >> take the popular bullshit of saas Bahu and bootnath serials. >> >> About market and art via ' conspiracy of art' we already know >> Hussain >> sahib is not in a great spiritual health. But a fanatic has no right >> to dislodge something which is already dislodged by the Tusnami of >> sheer profitalbity of americansim.. >> >> >> love >> is >> >> >> On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 8:34 PM, Yousuf wrote: >>> Dear Salim >>> You are right, an artist should never have to explain. But Picasso >> probably never had people killing each others angered by his >> paintings. But >> (as we have discussed earlier on this theme) if you are doing an >> art for >> public, would you not be concerned if the public appreciates it? No >> one is >> born appreciating high art - we acquire a tastes for everything. >> The point >> is, whose responsibity is it to inculcate the appreciation of art in >> society? If its a Madhubani painting done on the facade of my >> village house >> by my mother, its very much there in my genes. But if it is a horse >> by >> Hussain kept in a gallery to which I have no access, somebody has >> to do a >> bit of explaining on why such art is distanced from social reality >> (which >> actually is not, but the market has made it look so). >>> >>> Yousuf >>> >>> >>> --- On Wed, 9/3/08, inder salim wrote: >>> >>>> From: inder salim >>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions >>>> To: reader-list at sarai.net >>>> Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 7:14 PM >>>> Picasso said, if it is possible to explian, it is futile to >>>> paint. >>>> >>>> even if i we gnore picasso, who is an old hat in modern art >>>> now, let >>>> alone hussain sahib who is immensely supported by >>>> investors, and 'post >>>> colonialism' as theoritical justificaioin to do >>>> whatever he or we >>>> sometimes are doing which can pass as derivate at the >>>> best. >>>> >>>> what is education or what is not , what is offensive or >>>> what is not, >>>> is difficult to explain, if one chases the text, and its >>>> meaning >>>> profoundly... >>>> >>>> what we forget also is the fact that what we see are >>>> phtographs of the >>>> the original >>>> >>>> .and is photogaphy representing real, if so then we have >>>> truly >>>> disappeared from the face of this earth. and it does not >>>> matter if >>>> there is hussain or not, >>>> >>>> there is book by Jean Baudilard ' conspiracy of >>>> art' >>>> which speaks the contemporary art practices , and that >>>> makes us feel >>>> that the whole world is in fact a piece of modern art work >>>> , and we >>>> are not there, simple not part of it. >>>> >>>> the question of relevance of hussain in our social >>>> structures is open >>>> to this sort of criticism, >>>> >>>> but not once it lands as amunition in the hands of >>>> fanatics. >>>> >>>> love >>>> is >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From lalitambardar at hotmail.com Fri Sep 5 16:32:08 2008 From: lalitambardar at hotmail.com (Lalit Ambardar) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 11:02:08 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Killing Kashmiris by Comparison In-Reply-To: <407928.20104.qm@web31804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <407928.20104.qm@web31804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Pro Kashmiri pan Islamist sentiment is quite explicit in Junaid’s desperate attempt to demonise all that is India. One wonders if he is willing to extend his argument against Pakistan & other declared Muslim nations too. And what about Kashmiri nation itself, that he tries to project? Definitely, overwhelming Muslim majority in the Valley cannot be a basis for Kashmir to claim a separate entity. After all the advent of Islam in Kashmir can be traced to medieval period only & it is only because of the gradual & often aggressive Islamisation since then that today Muslims form a majority. But should that deprive the aboriginal Hindu Pandits who were reduced to a miniscule minority but who continued to inhabit the length & breadth of Kashmir & not in ghettos, till their ethnic cleansing in nineties, of their choice. Therefore, it is inappropriate to generalise the issue in terms of ‘Kashmiri nation” which is nothing but a notion of a Kashmiri Muslim nation. Propensity to attach the ‘empire’ tag to India is clearly a reaction that emanates from the concept of Ummah, so intrinsic to pan Islamism. Secularism in India does not survive because it is mentioned in the constitution of India- it is because of the ‘sarva dharma sambahav’ concept of the Hindu thought. What is wrong in preserving the Hindu heritage in India? And ‘Bharat Mata’ is same as is meant by ‘madre watan’ or ‘father land’ or ‘mother land’. The comment on Amarnath reflects the same rhetoric that was so unscrupulously used by both the extremists as well as the main stream politicians recently to misguide & mobilise the credulous masses in the name of Islam. I don’t understand the allergy against Abdullahs. Wasn’t it NC that first raised a hue & cry over Amarnath? Let us not forget most of those who are spearheading the separatist movement in Kashmir today have at one time or the other been part of the main stream politics. Well you can’t be suddenly selective about Barkha Dutt & NDTV now just because she choose to describe the ‘forced exodus of Hindu Pandits’ as ‘the most brutal form of human rights violation’ in some of her writings recently. Let us not forget it is the Indian media that has helped the Kashmiri pan Islamists some of whom deserver to be charged for ‘brutalities against humanity’ to acquire political legitimacy. And about amassing of people in the name of religion is no big thing. Louis Khan’s massive public demonstrations did not convert America in to a ‘nation of Islam’. LA ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 01:29:48 -0700> From: ishwarsridharan at yahoo.com> To: justjunaid at gmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Killing Kashmiris by Comparison> > While I agree with a considerable number of your points, I believe that you're reading too much into symbolisms. > > While you see Nehru standing on top of the Mughal's Red Fort and unfurling the flag with Ashoka's _chakra_ as a continuation of the Mauryan empire, I see it as a symbolic act of synthesis of the two cultures. > > Where you see Gandhi's _charka_ being replaced by Ashoka's circle as a signal that plans to take you back to the Hindu ages. I see it as an issue of representation. Gandhi's faction wasn't the only one that fought the struggle for independence, and putting his symbol would epitomise his faction as the only one that contributed to independence of the then fledgling nation. _Dharam Chakra_ , a widely regarded symbol of justice by Hindus and Buddhists was adopted because justice is more universal. One could've place Hammurabi's code of laws, but that's too far removed, geographically.> > While reading, and sometimes inventing symbolisms can be quite entertaining and creative, one should also admit that there are other, more plausible explanations for these symbolisms.> > > Coming to "people having a say on the formation of the union", while it's a noble thought,it's constrained by practical limitations. What's the winning percentage in a plebiscite? 50%? 66.6%? 90%? 99.99% ? Does this mean that the remaining 10% should give up their ancestral lands and move to a different nation because they didn't want to be part of the nation?> > > > Coming to the third point, the one on indian nation being a secular masquerade for a hindu empire, I believe you are, in one fell sweep, brushing aside geogrpahy under the carpet. All the "sacred" places under the umbrella of hinduism fall under the geographical boundaries on india. While increasing number of pilgrims to Haji Ali, Mecca, Lahore will not be attributed to increasing religiosity of the people because they're geographically separated, increasing number of pilgrims to vaishno devi, assam and rameshwaram will constitue hindu nationalism, without taking into account the fact that this is the only geography where "holy" sites of this religion might be found.> > > > Ishwar> > > Just another resurrected Neozoic Archosaur comics.> http://www.flickr.com/photos/mojosaurus/sets/72157600257724083/> > > > ----- Original Message ----> From: Junaid > To: reader-list at sarai.net> Sent: Friday, September 5, 2008 11:47:47 AM> Subject: [Reader-list] Killing Kashmiris by ComparisonWhil> > The debate "Nationalism vs. Separatism" on NDTV last week looked promising> in the beginning, because for once the host, Barkha Dutt, keeping aside her> usual national-security mindset, began by asking some pertinent questions,> and the academic voices in the panel set the tenor of the debate right.> Given, however, NDTV's habit of pulling together a big crowd of relevant and> irrelevant speakers, the debate lost track and sank into a pointless and an> all-too-familiar noise. This noise, let it be said, works perfectly well for> Indian establishment because it gives them a chance to say, "Look, we give> 'em an opportunity to speak; what a great democracy we are!", and yet> Kashmiris, as inarticulate as they are, come off sounding tired and tedious;> their voices lost in the din.> > > > Sunil Khilnani, who is a US-based academic, put the question right where it> must. The trouble is with the idea of India itself, in the way it seeks to> run roughshod over different identities and affiliations with its singular,> homogenous Indian identity. The point, in fact, goes even further, one which> Khilnani did not (could not get a chance to) speak about. The real problem> is the twin construction of India and of Hinduism as organic> wholes—territorial consolidation of one, and the 'semiticization' of the> other—with the former acting as the sacred space where the latter, the> sacred community, must act itself out. That there was nothing called "India"> or "Hinduism" before the Brahmanical elite and their British colonial> masters drew from each other, entirely in self-interest, to engineer these> territorial and cultural monoliths, has not been in much popular discussion.> Both concepts are so naturalized and consecrated in public consciousness> that questioning them is tantamount to blasphemy. In its present shape India> is actually an empire which is masquerading as a modern state. The Indian> rhetoric of "secular nationalism" has acted as a liberal cover in> international fora for a swelling Hindu *imperium*, which was territorially> achieved in 1947; Indian elite has gratefully allowed the use, and> continuous manufacture, of a Hindu civilizational self-identity to justify> the empire.> > > > Khilnani spoke only a little about the idea of India; he did not stretch his> argument to reflect on how the Hindu consciousness underlines the idea of> Indian nationalism; yet even the preliminary remark that there are a number> of nationalisms jostling for recognition within the territorial space of the> Indian state is appreciable. It, at least, gave a lie to the binary of the> show's name: "Nationalism" vs. "Separatism". To give due recognition to> Kashmiri nationalism has been unthinkable in India, so they call it by other> names: separatism, terrorism, extremism, and* pro-Pakistanism*. In an> earlier show, on the same TV channel, Swapan Dasgupta, a rightwing columnist> for The Pioneer, in fact, criticized the host of the show for allegedly> affording a *moral*-equivalence to "Kashmiri separatists" on par the "Jammu> nationalists" (the host was in no way doing that). No one asked Dasgupta as> to why Indian nationalism should be a touchstone of morality. But this> becomes easier to explain once we realize how Indian nationalism has become> akin to a religious faith and India a god worthy of worship.> > > > It is important here to reflect briefly upon the original issue of the> *Amarnath> Yatra* to illustrate the point about *Indian nationalism as a religious> faith in the service of the Hindu empire*. Let me not speak of how India's> political elite goaded, duped, threatened, and forced the peoples of> different regions of British India and the princely states to merge with> India; it was the same process through which Kashmir was *annexed*. Let me> not speak, too, of how *most* people of the subcontinent that were called> "We, the People of India" had virtually no say in the formation of what was> called the "Union". Let me just say that Nehru inherited an empire from the> British, and he wanted to consolidate his spoils by making it look like a> state. Not for nothing did he stand atop the Red Fort (a symbol of the> Mughal empire), on August 16, 1947, with a flag that no longer had Gandhi's> *Charkha*, but Ashoka's *Chakra* (a symbol of the Mauryan empire)—an act to> declare continuity with past empires of the subcontinent. Nehru was touted> as a secular democrat, but one can find plenty of evidence to show how he> gave in to the inexorable march of the Hindu nationalists, many of whom> decked his own cabinet. The *rebuilding* of the Somnath temple, to assuage> the feelings of the Hindu nation "*for until then they would not think that> the real freedom had come" *(the words of Vallabhbhai Patel), was just a> starter.> > > > Hindu nationalism, which ran amok over, what Ashis Nandy has called "the> little cultures of Hinduism", actually came in handy in the drive to turn> the empire into a state. Hindu pilgrimages were boosted to this end; new> places to worship were found and given nationalistic appeal. Issues like> Ram's birthplace, and in recent times 'Hanuman's bridge to Lanka' (the> Sethusamudaram) were made national issues to rally a fictitious nation> around fictitious symbols. In short, a sacred geography for Hindus was> outlined where it did not exist. India became synonymous with *Bharat Mata*,> the territorial Hindu deity to be worshipped through *deshbhakhti*. Kashmir,> which is called "the secular crown of India" without any hint of shame or> irony, was actually imagined as "the crown of *Bharat Mata*", and only so> because the crown of the bejeweled image of Bharat Mata, often juxtaposed> against the map of India, was where Kashmir was. Kashmir in the same vein> also became the *atoot ang* (an unbreakable body-part) of the> anthropomorphic goddess Mother India.> > > > The Amarnath issue stems from here. By bringing in millions of Hindus from> across India, facilitating their travel, increasing the number of pilgrimage> months, and trying to create permanent bases for them, the state seeks to> firmly place Kashmir within the Hindu imagination, as another point on the> sacred map of *Bharat Mata*. By doing so, Kashmir ceases to be the land of> Kashmiris, but becomes an abode of *Baba Bole Nath*. The consolidation of> this vision, along with parallel efforts to invent ancient Kashmiri links to> India (read the debates on the Institute of Kashmir Studies), in effect> seeks to integrate Kashmir with India in its Hindu sense. What else can> explain the comical demand of Jammu Hindus that their lost honour could be> regained only if Kashmiri land is given to them (perhaps the entire Kashmir> should be given to them in lieu of their lost Dogra honour!), and what else> can explain the whole of India, the state *and* the nation, rallying behind> Jammu Hindus?> > > > Despite the spin Indian strategists gave the recent protests that they are> an issue between Jammuites and Kashmiris (remember the monstrous lie about> discrimination), or however much space the Indian media gives protests in> Jammu as compared to the mammoth pro-Independence rallies in Kashmir, the> fact of the matter remains, it is India, in its true Hindu colours, that is> strutting in front of the powerless Kashmiri nation. I, for one, was not a> wee bit surprised to see the saffron Hindu flags getting replaced by Indian> flags in Hindu protests in Jammu, and chants of "*Bam Bam Bole*" and "*Bharat> Mata ki Jai*" being raised together. I am not surprised to see Muslim> Kashmiris getting killed by the dozen in protest marches or massive military> clampdowns on peaceful rallies, or bullet injuries sustained by thousands of> Kashmiris—many in India (like Tavleen Singh) wonder why the government isn't> actually pushing Kashmiris, sans Kashmir, into Pakistan. Marches in Jammu,> by comparison, look like a party, what with soldiers standing around for> photo-ops. No one has been killed in Jammu city in any kind of police> action, even though many protestors went on a rampage, and attacked, injured> and forced out many Muslims of the region. Despite the easy protests in> Jammu, the government looked desperate to talk to the Amarnath Sangharsh> Samiti, and scrambled a committee comprising a Kashmiri Pandit and a few> Jammu Hindu bureaucrats. The "talks", which looked like a family affair,> ended with government respectfully and expectedly giving Kashmiri land to> the Amarnath Shrine Board for exclusive use for three months each year (for> the only months the land could be used anyway). The government, shamelessly,> put out advertisements suggesting it consulted political parties and the> civil society of Kashmir before stealing their land; one wonders when,> during its brutal clampdowns and large-scale arrests, did government find> time to consult Kashmiris? Or, is Farooq Abdullah again the sole spokesman> of Kashmiris?> > > > This brings us back to the NDTV debate and the very intriguing answer that> an ex-military person (one of those irrelevant speakers on the debate on> nationalism) gave to a question from the audience as to why the army kills> so many Kashmiris. His answer: Kashmiris get killed because they happen to> be at *the scene of action*. How can you argue with such a reply? One might> say that perhaps Kashmiris get killed because the action happens on them,> that their bodies *are* the scenes of action. His answer, in any case,> derailed the debate, an attempt which Mani Aiyar of the Indian National> Congress was also making by trying to take the argument away from Kashmir> toward the "North-east" (I put Northeast in apostrophes because this> description links it cartographically to India, when I think the region is> closer to southeast Asia). Aiyar's insistence on talking about> *other*places is not different from all those noises with which> Kashmiris are> silenced by drawing contrasts to violence in other places: "so many get> killed in Bihar", "so many rapes happen in Delhi", what are you Kashmiris> whining about? (It is a separate matter that nationalist Indians> inadvertently, thus, equate their state with criminals of Bihar and rapists> of Delhi).Though issues in Nagaland, Manipur, etc. are similar to Kashmir,> in the sense that they too emerge from the rather predatory "idea of India",> but Aiyar was using it to suggest, rather bald-facedly, that there are other> people demanding independence, what are you Kashmiris whining about. Let us> call it, for the sake of a better phrase, killing (occupying) Kashmiris by> comparison.> > > > It is also time we put to rest the phrase "Autonomy". Kashmiris don't want> autonomy. Even National Conference, its original votary, does not look> enthusiastic about the word any longer after its much-fêted proposal was> consigned to the dustbin in Delhi without even a discussion. The point is> Kashmir *had* autonomy; that is where India started with Kashmir. When the> NC says they want to go back to the pre-1953 status, it automatically means> that Kashmiris were there once. For all these years India has slowly gnawed> it into shreds. Going back to that political status will mean trusting India> over something of which it has proved totally untrustworthy. Who wants to> give India another try for another 62 years? Perhaps, the NC?> > > > Aiyar, at his noisy best, kept saying *ad nauseam*, that the Kashmiri> "separatists" should participate in elections to prove their representative> character, forgetting in the process an entire ignominious history of rigged> elections in Kashmir. Those "mainstream" parties that India sees as> representing Kashmiris cannot, by their own admission,bring so many> Kashmiris out on the streets as pro-Independence leaders have in Kashmir> over the last many years. And this is despite the presence of 700 thousand> Indian soldiers to muzzle Kashmiris. If one sixth of the Kashmiri nation is> out on the streets on a given day demanding Independence, one can imagine> the level of support and endorsement the "separatists" command. How many> people joined the Quit India marches at the height of India's independence> struggle? A lakh? Two? India says Kashmiris are confused; that they don't> know what they want. India describes the *need* for Kashmir's freedom as an> *aspiration*, a Kashmiri desire. Kashmiris, however, are talking to them as> straight as possible. When a million Kashmiri voices rose together in August> 2008, they told India something quite uncomplicated: leave.> > > > **> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Search for videos of Bollywood, Hollywood, Mollywood and every other wood, only on Live.com http://www.live.com/?scope=video&form=MICOAL From indersalim at gmail.com Fri Sep 5 20:18:16 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 20:18:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions In-Reply-To: <4B78567A-0D07-4FC3-98FF-8A26707FF690@dannybutt.net> References: <47e122a70809030644g483a5b2en985bbcd466c44c9b@mail.gmail.com> <319517.61062.qm@web51407.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <47e122a70809031030l8c80ad2p2699cebbeb999893@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809040209x36039c0fjde7275560b7eb74a@mail.gmail.com> <4B78567A-0D07-4FC3-98FF-8A26707FF690@dannybutt.net> Message-ID: <47e122a70809050748m2404fb8dh9ce65637678f1579@mail.gmail.com> Dear Danny Butt, Here in India we are made to believe that M.F. Huaain's paintings have angered Hindus. If so, we are merely gulping down the throat what is being offered to us. I believe, people on the List and elsewhere, need to express their emancipated views while dealing with subjectivities which are exclusively aesthetic in nature. It quickly lapses into communsalism and hate. how ' this causes this' gets inverted with the passage of time is too interesting to read. It could be seen even then , but needs a 'creative eye' . Picasso is just a example, of knowing how European colonialism of Africa might have caused, let us say a Gurenica, to happen much earlier before the world war 2nd which made picasso to see Civil war in Spain and other such things. Here, this also will be interesting to note that Picasso was 'high jacked' by the market, and the subject 'death' danced a la aesthetic. Here, it is also note worthy that Picasso also worked his compositions from the war photographs in the press and also from the African masks. Picasso himself says, that he does not know whether he is a good artist or not, but he is a good craftsman. I think he was clear to a large extent, and he had to courage to abandon his successful style at the stage of a career when very few artists dare to do so. On the contrary Hussain had little choice when he began to kiss ' the modern' That was OUR fate, and we continue to reel under the impact of that 'modern' which was promoted as global as the same time. So post colonial, which has its own dynamics, depth and relevance, like Bollywood is not merely a derivate of Hollywood, Indian modern paintings too are not simply Western, but something which we can own, even in the absence of a coherence. Hussain has indeed worked overtime to bring that Indian into the form which was seen purely as modern. That truly is, and nothing more. Even if we enter a new phase of post-modern / art-now kind of Indian art scene, we cannot simply can not say that Indian modern art, (painting and sculpture) does not exist. Because any representation of India, even with some pretension of the modern, offends the Hindu nationalists, The paintings which have caused this anger in some fanatic hindus can be seen through this perspective. This is also speaks the darker side of democracy in a post colonial free India. This anger is part of the process that brought down a 400 year old mosque by these hindu fanatics, jut to come to power in the centre. They managed it, and are not out of race this time again. So defending Hussain is so urgent for a modern democratic and secular citizen living in India. That is that. Your response, with passage from Lauran Bernat to Aarti's question on HURT is really profound and demands a sincere discourse. Please forward his complete article. The question of 'hurt' is truly democratic. This is how Aarti puts it lucidly "that it posits a horizon of desire that is unachievable for the people it uses for the ad" . Our progress in the modern has no space for hurt, perhaps because it posits its being in the machine exclusively. This modern machine thing has simultaneously given monopoly over ' the hurt' to religious believers only. That is indeed undemocratic. To expand the definition of 'hurt' we need to enter a word like 'environment'. A tree, a river, a simple identity, a simple dignity of the individual can be seen as environmental, only if there is some challenge to the value judgment unleashed by the capitalists. How else "we are to fashion any sort of language to deal with the violence of the present". I quote Aarti again. So, Art that is overwhelmingly part of the capitalist investment, and is bereft of that urge to challenge the horizon of desire that has no space for the people that it uses it, and no space for the earth that uses it. To quote Tee Bee Di "Hmm.. Who is not an artist? " I feel everybody, only if there is a radical thought in place. The question of 'hurt' is therefore, political, and can not be seen only in the so called acts of profanation of the sacred. It is quite ironical that how people are so close to the realities of mythologies which are so distant, and so distant to the realities that is intimate. How has all this happened? With love inder salim On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 3:43 PM, Danny Butt wrote: > Kia ora all > > I've also been learning a lot from the recent discussion, as I try to > map these conversations back onto the very different cultural > histories (though equally fragmented perhaps, if less recently as > bloody) here in Aotearoa New Zealand. > > Having seen a huge retrospective of Picasso's work (and collection) > close to my hometown recently, I couldn't help but be struck by the > fact that while it might be true that, as Yousuf says, "Picasso > probably never had people killing each others angered by his > paintings", it is nevertheless equally true that his work is > unthinkable without the death that accompanied the European > colonisation of Africa and the Pacific. The works in his collection > acquired from those regions seem to take on additional significance > when read in light of that history. So perhaps the question of time, > where we sequence events and consequences to say "this causes this", > becomes inverted and displaced in situations where the affect seems to > precede the event of production. In some respects, when hurt is > experienced, the potential of that hurt seems to have been structured > in advance. > > This was just one of the thoughts brought to mind by Aarti's very > productive questions. While I am not really fluent enough in the > specific issues which prompted this discussion to comment more > specifically, I would like to share a quote from a writer that I have > learnt a lot from about the issues Aarti raises, which I think does > speak to the recent discussions on the list. > > "The exposed traumas of workers in ongoing extreme conditions do not > generally induce more than mourning on the part of the state and the > public culture to whose feeling-based opinions the state is said to > respond. Mourning is what happens when a grounding object is lost, is > dead, no longer living (to you). Mourning is an experience of > irreducible boundedness: I am here, I am living. He is dead, I am > mourning. It is a beautiful, not sublime, experience of emancipation: > mourning supplies the subject the definitional perfection of a being > no longer in flux. It takes place over a distance: even if the object > who induces the feeling of loss and helplessness is neither dead nor > at any great distance from where you are. In other words, mourning can > also be an act of aggression, of social deathmaking: it can perform > the evacuation of significance from actually-existing subjects. Even > when liberals do it, one might say, "others" are ghosted for a good > cause. The sorrow songs of scandal that sing of the exploitation that > is always "elsewhere" (even a few blocks away) are in this sense > aggressively songs of mourning. Play them backward, and the military > march of capitalist triumphalism (The Trans-Nationale) can be heard. > Its lyric, currently crooned by every organ of record in the United > States, is about necessity. It exhorts citizens to understand that the > "bottom line" of national life is neither utopia nor freedom but > survival, which can only be achieved by a citizenry that eats its > anger, makes no unreasonable claims on resources or control over > value, and uses its most creative energy to cultivate intimate spheres > while scrapping a life together flexibly in response to the market > world's caprice." > > Lauren Berlant, "The Subject of True Feeling: Pain, Privacy, and > Politics", in Austin Sarat and Thomas R. Kearns (eds.) Cultural > Pluralism, Identity Politics, and the Law. Ann Arbor: University of > Michigan Press. 1999. > > (In the notes for this paragraph Berlant references Douglas Crimp and > the politics of AIDS in the US: "Crimp is especially astute on the > necessary articulation of sentimentality and politics: because > processes of legitimation cannot do without the production of consent, > and empathetic misrecognition is one tactic for creating it. The > question is how, and at what cost, different kinds of subjects and > contexts of empathy are imagined in the struggle for radical social > transformation.") > > I'd be happy to forward a PDF of Berlant's article to anyone who is > interested in these questions of subjectivity, affect, and public > recognition. > > Cheers, > > Danny > > -- > http://www.dannybutt.net > > On 4/09/2008, at 9:09 PM, Aarti Sethi wrote: > >> A few thoughts on an interesting discussion. >> >> One term I think that has remained unexamined in this discussion is >> "hurt" >> or "sentiment". By this I mean not an assessment of whether that >> hurt is >> justified, valid etc, who is to decide whether this offends or not, >> whether >> this is offensive or not, the relative self-sufficiency of value >> systems and >> speaking across them. But the inherent value of hurt as a positive >> force in >> itself. Let me try and explain what I mean. >> >> Why is "hurt sentiment" a bad thing in itself? Can having one's >> sentiments >> hurt, sometimes quite badly, not be a positive force? Might it not >> impell me >> to re-think, or think, about my sentiments in a manner that is >> creative? >> Maybe those sentiments are better discarded. Maybe my outrage alerts >> me to a >> violence I have been commiting without realising it. Maybe if more >> people's >> sentiments were outraged a little more forcefully, then we would be >> living >> in a far more democratic and tolerant world. >> >> Further, I do not see why only religious communities have a monopoly >> on >> sentiments which can then be hurt. As a feminist, my sentiments are >> assaulted on a routine and regular basis. As someone who believes in a >> version of social justice and equality, once articulated by, but not >> only >> by, Marx for instance, my feelings are continually trampled over. As >> someone >> who believes in a secular vision, the discussions on this list >> offend me >> everyday. However i do not see this being taken very seriously. And it >> needn't, that is the point. It is up to me to alchemize this >> outrage, hurt, >> sadness in a manner that enables me to live and act in the world. >> >> This is actually how we live our lives generally. My mother, or >> father, or >> lover, or friend might say something that hurts me terribly. Not >> always is >> this clarified, discussed, put in its right perspective. All our >> lives are >> all littered with silent archives of hurts we have never expressed. >> There is >> no heroic moment in which resolution is sought for hurts. And no one >> can do >> this for anyone... >> >> The recent Vogue advertisements doing the rounds, around which there >> has >> been some discussion on this list, have hurt the sentiments of many >> people. >> A few years ago another set of advertisements for brand equity in >> which two >> tribal women are shown discussing the tans they have got in Monte >> Carlo to >> an accompanying snide and contemptous copy which said something >> about how >> advertisers need to accurately reach their consumers, also outraged >> many of >> us. Having thought about this, I realised that though both the Vogue >> ads and >> the brand equity ads trouble me, they do so in different ways. >> >> The Vogue ads can be read in one of many ways - that it posits a >> horizon of >> desire that is unachievable for the people it uses for the ad. In >> some sense >> then the frisson of the ad derives from the discrepancy in what is >> desired >> and what is possible. Further it assumes that their horizon of >> desire will >> follow the trajectory laid out by Vogue. But most interesting to me >> is that >> both Vogue and the critics work with a fixed definition of poverty >> in the >> first place, and certain trajectory of the direction a life can take. >> >> The second set of ads function on precisely the opposite principle. >> Rather >> than positing an eventual horizon of desire, they deem a present >> life as >> failed, and urges us to recognise its failure. It presumes and makes >> me >> complicit in a social consensus in which we can use languages in a >> manner as >> if we are all agreed on the terms in operation. >> >> Can you see the difference in both ads? They both trouble me deeply, >> but >> they trouble me in different ways. How is this at all useful, or >> valuable? I >> think it is. I think to be able to carefully work through how and >> why and in >> what ways something arrives to me and what it disturbs is a critical >> thing, >> if we are to fashion any sort of language to deal with the violence >> of the >> present. >> >> with regards >> Aarti >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 11:00 PM, inder salim >> wrote: >> >>> dear yousuf >>> >>> thanks for response. >>> >>> no i dont agree that people are killing each other because Hussain >>> painted this or that, People want to kill people and there is always >>> an excuse available. We will always not blame people for that >>> because >>> people have ceased to be people with their existential choice to be ' >>> being-in-itself'. Prime symbols of our society have perhaps >>> cultivated bad tastes because of a deep bourgiouse-captilist-fascist >>> leanings. We are indeed in a deep mess. For example, Sudhir Kakkar >>> talks about how unresolved sexuality has a deep relationship with >>> violence. Now who is the culprit. At least Artists are trying to >>> heal >>> themselves. let them, even if people are not healed... >>> >>> about what is good to society ? Stalin's USSR did this mistake and >>> killed lot of intellectuals poets and artists, Theortically what, >>> poets are artists were doing at time had little relevance to the >>> times >>> ' of bolshivik ' but in the end we can see how wrong was that policy >>> of actually believing what is good for society and what is not. We >>> need to provide a space to everything for everybody. >>> >>> People like TV reality and other such heaps of trash....., how much >>> we can carry is seriously with us, you know better, at least i cant >>> take the popular bullshit of saas Bahu and bootnath serials. >>> >>> About market and art via ' conspiracy of art' we already know >>> Hussain >>> sahib is not in a great spiritual health. But a fanatic has no right >>> to dislodge something which is already dislodged by the Tusnami of >>> sheer profitalbity of americansim.. >>> >>> >>> love >>> is >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 8:34 PM, Yousuf wrote: >>>> Dear Salim >>>> You are right, an artist should never have to explain. But Picasso >>> probably never had people killing each others angered by his >>> paintings. But >>> (as we have discussed earlier on this theme) if you are doing an >>> art for >>> public, would you not be concerned if the public appreciates it? No >>> one is >>> born appreciating high art - we acquire a tastes for everything. >>> The point >>> is, whose responsibity is it to inculcate the appreciation of art in >>> society? If its a Madhubani painting done on the facade of my >>> village house >>> by my mother, its very much there in my genes. But if it is a horse >>> by >>> Hussain kept in a gallery to which I have no access, somebody has >>> to do a >>> bit of explaining on why such art is distanced from social reality >>> (which >>> actually is not, but the market has made it look so). >>>> >>>> Yousuf >>>> >>>> >>>> --- On Wed, 9/3/08, inder salim wrote: >>>> >>>>> From: inder salim >>>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions >>>>> To: reader-list at sarai.net >>>>> Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 7:14 PM >>>>> Picasso said, if it is possible to explian, it is futile to >>>>> paint. >>>>> >>>>> even if i we gnore picasso, who is an old hat in modern art >>>>> now, let >>>>> alone hussain sahib who is immensely supported by >>>>> investors, and 'post >>>>> colonialism' as theoritical justificaioin to do >>>>> whatever he or we >>>>> sometimes are doing which can pass as derivate at the >>>>> best. >>>>> >>>>> what is education or what is not , what is offensive or >>>>> what is not, >>>>> is difficult to explain, if one chases the text, and its >>>>> meaning >>>>> profoundly... >>>>> >>>>> what we forget also is the fact that what we see are >>>>> phtographs of the >>>>> the original >>>>> >>>>> .and is photogaphy representing real, if so then we have >>>>> truly >>>>> disappeared from the face of this earth. and it does not >>>>> matter if >>>>> there is hussain or not, >>>>> >>>>> there is book by Jean Baudilard ' conspiracy of >>>>> art' >>>>> which speaks the contemporary art practices , and that >>>>> makes us feel >>>>> that the whole world is in fact a piece of modern art work >>>>> , and we >>>>> are not there, simple not part of it. >>>>> >>>>> the question of relevance of hussain in our social >>>>> structures is open >>>>> to this sort of criticism, >>>>> >>>>> but not once it lands as amunition in the hands of >>>>> fanatics. >>>>> >>>>> love >>>>> is >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From wonton_warriorprincess at yahoo.com Fri Sep 5 21:12:44 2008 From: wonton_warriorprincess at yahoo.com (hasina hasan) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 21:12:44 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions In-Reply-To: <47e122a70809050748m2404fb8dh9ce65637678f1579@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <885302.41172.qm@web94709.mail.in2.yahoo.com> wish they'd let us dance all night in Bengaluru. they should dance and let dance. violation of my basic right to dance. (to express through dance?) i'm not ashamed to say this despite many people elsewhere starving / committing suicide with no money for what's their basic needs. if they were in my shoes, they'd wanna dance too, i bet. my first reaction when i saw the ads, before reading the reviews: vogue - a rich bitch (i say this endearingly. i do like the way they make ugly look so pretty) high fashion brand wants to be associated with India. another one bites the dust. behind the scenes, i feel...... vogue wants to be associated with the hottest hottie around. maybe the creative team was looking at who to play with besides china. so they picked india. or maybe it refers to where they got the inspiration for the design from. India. ..........shame. i cant make a ruckus about people taking pics of my dirty neighbourhood when i cant keep it clean myself is what i thought after reading the bit finally. the titles of that thread and the article etc are jarring. the ad, not so much. i think perhaps the hurt/anger comes from elsewhere. from the poverty/ our ugliness / our dirty neighbourhood having been brought to light? though they tried to show it in a pretty light (it's what they do), we see not the pretty but the ugly shining through? anyway, i wonder how much those folks got paid for the modelling bit. would be funny if they got the handbag etc. instead of money. funnier still if that's what they wanted. have a nice weekend, Hasina --- On Fri, 5/9/08, inder salim wrote: From: inder salim Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions To: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Friday, 5 September, 2008, 7:48 AM Dear Danny Butt, Here in India we are made to believe that M.F. Huaain's paintings have angered Hindus. If so, we are merely gulping down the throat what is being offered to us. I believe, people on the List and elsewhere, need to express their emancipated views while dealing with subjectivities which are exclusively aesthetic in nature. It quickly lapses into communsalism and hate. how ' this causes this' gets inverted with the passage of time is too interesting to read. It could be seen even then , but needs a 'creative eye' . Picasso is just a example, of knowing how European colonialism of Africa might have caused, let us say a Gurenica, to happen much earlier before the world war 2nd which made picasso to see Civil war in Spain and other such things. Here, this also will be interesting to note that Picasso was 'high jacked' by the market, and the subject 'death' danced a la aesthetic. Here, it is also note worthy that Picasso also worked his compositions from the war photographs in the press and also from the African masks. Picasso himself says, that he does not know whether he is a good artist or not, but he is a good craftsman. I think he was clear to a large extent, and he had to courage to abandon his successful style at the stage of a career when very few artists dare to do so. On the contrary Hussain had little choice when he began to kiss ' the modern' That was OUR fate, and we continue to reel under the impact of that 'modern' which was promoted as global as the same time. So post colonial, which has its own dynamics, depth and relevance, like Bollywood is not merely a derivate of Hollywood, Indian modern paintings too are not simply Western, but something which we can own, even in the absence of a coherence. Hussain has indeed worked overtime to bring that Indian into the form which was seen purely as modern. That truly is, and nothing more. Even if we enter a new phase of post-modern / art-now kind of Indian art scene, we cannot simply can not say that Indian modern art, (painting and sculpture) does not exist. Because any representation of India, even with some pretension of the modern, offends the Hindu nationalists, The paintings which have caused this anger in some fanatic hindus can be seen through this perspective. This is also speaks the darker side of democracy in a post colonial free India. This anger is part of the process that brought down a 400 year old mosque by these hindu fanatics, jut to come to power in the centre. They managed it, and are not out of race this time again. So defending Hussain is so urgent for a modern democratic and secular citizen living in India. That is that. Your response, with passage from Lauran Bernat to Aarti's question on HURT is really profound and demands a sincere discourse. Please forward his complete article. The question of 'hurt' is truly democratic. This is how Aarti puts it lucidly "that it posits a horizon of desire that is unachievable for the people it uses for the ad" . Our progress in the modern has no space for hurt, perhaps because it posits its being in the machine exclusively. This modern machine thing has simultaneously given monopoly over ' the hurt' to religious believers only. That is indeed undemocratic. To expand the definition of 'hurt' we need to enter a word like 'environment'. A tree, a river, a simple identity, a simple dignity of the individual can be seen as environmental, only if there is some challenge to the value judgment unleashed by the capitalists. How else "we are to fashion any sort of language to deal with the violence of the present". I quote Aarti again. So, Art that is overwhelmingly part of the capitalist investment, and is bereft of that urge to challenge the horizon of desire that has no space for the people that it uses it, and no space for the earth that uses it. To quote Tee Bee Di "Hmm.. Who is not an artist? " I feel everybody, only if there is a radical thought in place. The question of 'hurt' is therefore, political, and can not be seen only in the so called acts of profanation of the sacred. It is quite ironical that how people are so close to the realities of mythologies which are so distant, and so distant to the realities that is intimate. How has all this happened? With love inder salim On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 3:43 PM, Danny Butt wrote: > Kia ora all > > I've also been learning a lot from the recent discussion, as I try to > map these conversations back onto the very different cultural > histories (though equally fragmented perhaps, if less recently as > bloody) here in Aotearoa New Zealand. > > Having seen a huge retrospective of Picasso's work (and collection) > close to my hometown recently, I couldn't help but be struck by the > fact that while it might be true that, as Yousuf says, "Picasso > probably never had people killing each others angered by his > paintings", it is nevertheless equally true that his work is > unthinkable without the death that accompanied the European > colonisation of Africa and the Pacific. The works in his collection > acquired from those regions seem to take on additional significance > when read in light of that history. So perhaps the question of time, > where we sequence events and consequences to say "this causes this", > becomes inverted and displaced in situations where the affect seems to > precede the event of production. In some respects, when hurt is > experienced, the potential of that hurt seems to have been structured > in advance. > > This was just one of the thoughts brought to mind by Aarti's very > productive questions. While I am not really fluent enough in the > specific issues which prompted this discussion to comment more > specifically, I would like to share a quote from a writer that I have > learnt a lot from about the issues Aarti raises, which I think does > speak to the recent discussions on the list. > > "The exposed traumas of workers in ongoing extreme conditions do not > generally induce more than mourning on the part of the state and the > public culture to whose feeling-based opinions the state is said to > respond. Mourning is what happens when a grounding object is lost, is > dead, no longer living (to you). Mourning is an experience of > irreducible boundedness: I am here, I am living. He is dead, I am > mourning. It is a beautiful, not sublime, experience of emancipation: > mourning supplies the subject the definitional perfection of a being > no longer in flux. It takes place over a distance: even if the object > who induces the feeling of loss and helplessness is neither dead nor > at any great distance from where you are. In other words, mourning can > also be an act of aggression, of social deathmaking: it can perform > the evacuation of significance from actually-existing subjects. Even > when liberals do it, one might say, "others" are ghosted for a good > cause. The sorrow songs of scandal that sing of the exploitation that > is always "elsewhere" (even a few blocks away) are in this sense > aggressively songs of mourning. Play them backward, and the military > march of capitalist triumphalism (The Trans-Nationale) can be heard. > Its lyric, currently crooned by every organ of record in the United > States, is about necessity. It exhorts citizens to understand that the > "bottom line" of national life is neither utopia nor freedom but > survival, which can only be achieved by a citizenry that eats its > anger, makes no unreasonable claims on resources or control over > value, and uses its most creative energy to cultivate intimate spheres > while scrapping a life together flexibly in response to the market > world's caprice." > > Lauren Berlant, "The Subject of True Feeling: Pain, Privacy, and > Politics", in Austin Sarat and Thomas R. Kearns (eds.) Cultural > Pluralism, Identity Politics, and the Law. Ann Arbor: University of > Michigan Press. 1999. > > (In the notes for this paragraph Berlant references Douglas Crimp and > the politics of AIDS in the US: "Crimp is especially astute on the > necessary articulation of sentimentality and politics: because > processes of legitimation cannot do without the production of consent, > and empathetic misrecognition is one tactic for creating it. The > question is how, and at what cost, different kinds of subjects and > contexts of empathy are imagined in the struggle for radical social > transformation.") > > I'd be happy to forward a PDF of Berlant's article to anyone who is > interested in these questions of subjectivity, affect, and public > recognition. > > Cheers, > > Danny > > -- > http://www.dannybutt.net > > On 4/09/2008, at 9:09 PM, Aarti Sethi wrote: > >> A few thoughts on an interesting discussion. >> >> One term I think that has remained unexamined in this discussion is >> "hurt" >> or "sentiment". By this I mean not an assessment of whether that >> hurt is >> justified, valid etc, who is to decide whether this offends or not, >> whether >> this is offensive or not, the relative self-sufficiency of value >> systems and >> speaking across them. But the inherent value of hurt as a positive >> force in >> itself. Let me try and explain what I mean. >> >> Why is "hurt sentiment" a bad thing in itself? Can having one's >> sentiments >> hurt, sometimes quite badly, not be a positive force? Might it not >> impell me >> to re-think, or think, about my sentiments in a manner that is >> creative? >> Maybe those sentiments are better discarded. Maybe my outrage alerts >> me to a >> violence I have been commiting without realising it. Maybe if more >> people's >> sentiments were outraged a little more forcefully, then we would be >> living >> in a far more democratic and tolerant world. >> >> Further, I do not see why only religious communities have a monopoly >> on >> sentiments which can then be hurt. As a feminist, my sentiments are >> assaulted on a routine and regular basis. As someone who believes in a >> version of social justice and equality, once articulated by, but not >> only >> by, Marx for instance, my feelings are continually trampled over. As >> someone >> who believes in a secular vision, the discussions on this list >> offend me >> everyday. However i do not see this being taken very seriously. And it >> needn't, that is the point. It is up to me to alchemize this >> outrage, hurt, >> sadness in a manner that enables me to live and act in the world. >> >> This is actually how we live our lives generally. My mother, or >> father, or >> lover, or friend might say something that hurts me terribly. Not >> always is >> this clarified, discussed, put in its right perspective. All our >> lives are >> all littered with silent archives of hurts we have never expressed. >> There is >> no heroic moment in which resolution is sought for hurts. And no one >> can do >> this for anyone... >> >> The recent Vogue advertisements doing the rounds, around which there >> has >> been some discussion on this list, have hurt the sentiments of many >> people. >> A few years ago another set of advertisements for brand equity in >> which two >> tribal women are shown discussing the tans they have got in Monte >> Carlo to >> an accompanying snide and contemptous copy which said something >> about how >> advertisers need to accurately reach their consumers, also outraged >> many of >> us. Having thought about this, I realised that though both the Vogue >> ads and >> the brand equity ads trouble me, they do so in different ways. >> >> The Vogue ads can be read in one of many ways - that it posits a >> horizon of >> desire that is unachievable for the people it uses for the ad. In >> some sense >> then the frisson of the ad derives from the discrepancy in what is >> desired >> and what is possible. Further it assumes that their horizon of >> desire will >> follow the trajectory laid out by Vogue. But most interesting to me >> is that >> both Vogue and the critics work with a fixed definition of poverty >> in the >> first place, and certain trajectory of the direction a life can take. >> >> The second set of ads function on precisely the opposite principle. >> Rather >> than positing an eventual horizon of desire, they deem a present >> life as >> failed, and urges us to recognise its failure. It presumes and makes >> me >> complicit in a social consensus in which we can use languages in a >> manner as >> if we are all agreed on the terms in operation. >> >> Can you see the difference in both ads? They both trouble me deeply, >> but >> they trouble me in different ways. How is this at all useful, or >> valuable? I >> think it is. I think to be able to carefully work through how and >> why and in >> what ways something arrives to me and what it disturbs is a critical >> thing, >> if we are to fashion any sort of language to deal with the violence >> of the >> present. >> >> with regards >> Aarti >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 11:00 PM, inder salim >> wrote: >> >>> dear yousuf >>> >>> thanks for response. >>> >>> no i dont agree that people are killing each other because Hussain >>> painted this or that, People want to kill people and there is always >>> an excuse available. We will always not blame people for that >>> because >>> people have ceased to be people with their existential choice to be ' >>> being-in-itself'. Prime symbols of our society have perhaps >>> cultivated bad tastes because of a deep bourgiouse-captilist-fascist >>> leanings. We are indeed in a deep mess. For example, Sudhir Kakkar >>> talks about how unresolved sexuality has a deep relationship with >>> violence. Now who is the culprit. At least Artists are trying to >>> heal >>> themselves. let them, even if people are not healed... >>> >>> about what is good to society ? Stalin's USSR did this mistake and >>> killed lot of intellectuals poets and artists, Theortically what, >>> poets are artists were doing at time had little relevance to the >>> times >>> ' of bolshivik ' but in the end we can see how wrong was that policy >>> of actually believing what is good for society and what is not. We >>> need to provide a space to everything for everybody. >>> >>> People like TV reality and other such heaps of trash....., how much >>> we can carry is seriously with us, you know better, at least i cant >>> take the popular bullshit of saas Bahu and bootnath serials. >>> >>> About market and art via ' conspiracy of art' we already know >>> Hussain >>> sahib is not in a great spiritual health. But a fanatic has no right >>> to dislodge something which is already dislodged by the Tusnami of >>> sheer profitalbity of americansim.. >>> >>> >>> love >>> is >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 8:34 PM, Yousuf wrote: >>>> Dear Salim >>>> You are right, an artist should never have to explain. But Picasso >>> probably never had people killing each others angered by his >>> paintings. But >>> (as we have discussed earlier on this theme) if you are doing an >>> art for >>> public, would you not be concerned if the public appreciates it? No >>> one is >>> born appreciating high art - we acquire a tastes for everything. >>> The point >>> is, whose responsibity is it to inculcate the appreciation of art in >>> society? If its a Madhubani painting done on the facade of my >>> village house >>> by my mother, its very much there in my genes. But if it is a horse >>> by >>> Hussain kept in a gallery to which I have no access, somebody has >>> to do a >>> bit of explaining on why such art is distanced from social reality >>> (which >>> actually is not, but the market has made it look so). >>>> >>>> Yousuf >>>> >>>> >>>> --- On Wed, 9/3/08, inder salim wrote: >>>> >>>>> From: inder salim >>>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions >>>>> To: reader-list at sarai.net >>>>> Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 7:14 PM >>>>> Picasso said, if it is possible to explian, it is futile to >>>>> paint. >>>>> >>>>> even if i we gnore picasso, who is an old hat in modern art >>>>> now, let >>>>> alone hussain sahib who is immensely supported by >>>>> investors, and 'post >>>>> colonialism' as theoritical justificaioin to do >>>>> whatever he or we >>>>> sometimes are doing which can pass as derivate at the >>>>> best. >>>>> >>>>> what is education or what is not , what is offensive or >>>>> what is not, >>>>> is difficult to explain, if one chases the text, and its >>>>> meaning >>>>> profoundly... >>>>> >>>>> what we forget also is the fact that what we see are >>>>> phtographs of the >>>>> the original >>>>> >>>>> .and is photogaphy representing real, if so then we have >>>>> truly >>>>> disappeared from the face of this earth. and it does not >>>>> matter if >>>>> there is hussain or not, >>>>> >>>>> there is book by Jean Baudilard ' conspiracy of >>>>> art' >>>>> which speaks the contemporary art practices , and that >>>>> makes us feel >>>>> that the whole world is in fact a piece of modern art work >>>>> , and we >>>>> are not there, simple not part of it. >>>>> >>>>> the question of relevance of hussain in our social >>>>> structures is open >>>>> to this sort of criticism, >>>>> >>>>> but not once it lands as amunition in the hands of >>>>> fanatics. >>>>> >>>>> love >>>>> is >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Bring your gang together. Do your thing. Find your favourite Yahoo! group at http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/ From invitation at mydailyflog.com Sat Sep 6 04:45:10 2008 From: invitation at mydailyflog.com (avisirohi Lastname) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 18:15:10 -0500 Subject: [Reader-list] I invite you to see MyDailyFlog page! Message-ID: <8f644e067d816a6c52fffe2ebe1e5111@www.mydailyflog.com> Hi! I would like to invite you to visit MyDailyFlog and see my latest photos. Check out: http://www.mydailyflog.com/avisirohi Cheers! avisirohi Lastname ======================================== Got a digital camera? MyDailyFlog is a personal photo-blogging space where you can easily post your latest and greatest photos, and share them with your friends and family. Create your own DailyFlog at www.MyDailyFlog.com ....................................................................... Unsubscribe: to opt out of further invitations from your friends to see their DailyFlogs, please click below: http://www.mydailyflog.com/go/system/euns=reader-list at sarai.net&md5=bbf0db14c3bbc7e2465761c70720d86c Please do not reply directly to this email. Questions? Contact us - http://www.mydailyflog.com/go/contact_us MyDailyFlog, Refriendz Ltd. PO BOX 1184, Luton, Bedfordshire, LU1 9AT. From rashneek at gmail.com Sat Sep 6 11:19:33 2008 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 11:19:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord In-Reply-To: <6353c690809030754n46e01c85va5267b772467649f@mail.gmail.com> References: <821912.19661.qm@web57211.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <6353c690809030754n46e01c85va5267b772467649f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <13df7c120809052249j449f2d1ahdbf3c72236d07f8b@mail.gmail.com> All that notwithstanding, Shuddha's knowledge and understanding of either history or politics is of Kashmir is so poor or so full of inaccuries (intentional as well ignorant) that it is time we start ignoring his posts on Kashmir. Regards Rashneek On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 8:24 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > And, In a recent lecture in Jamia University, he was no different. > Advocating pan-Islamist movement in Kashmir. > > On 9/3/08, Lalit Ambardar wrote: > > > > It is not surprising.AG Noorani is a known sympathiser of the Kashmiri > pan > > Islamists & their cause. He ran a campaign series in support of the > > separatists in HT for years .The very fact that Noorani has chosen to > call > > Jammuites as 'communal forces' & 'parivar' & the accord itself as > > 'gunah-e-bey lazzat' & describe those who attempt to seek "azadi -bara -e > > -Islam" as 'victims' says it all. > > > > Noorani once went overboard in " don't be fence-sitters " (HT New > Delhi/May > > 8, 2007) in his appreciation of Sayad Sallahudin of HM & the al-Qeada > > affiliate LeT. In a bizarre coincidence , the day LeT chief allegedly > > assured some Gen. Patankar of his willingness to come to India for talks > > (...????....) as claimed by Noorani in the article , that very day Hafeez > > Sayad confessed to the reporters in Islamabad about the existence of > > terrorist infrastructure in Pakistan & declared his resolve to carry on > the > > 'jihad' to its logical conclusion (Ref. TNN/ Times of India, DEL/May8' > 07/ > > page no.13). > > LA > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 03:55:11 -0700> From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> > To: > > shuddha at sarai.net> CC: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] > > Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord> > > > > > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> > > > > > > > --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > wrote:> > > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Subject: Re: > > [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord> To: > > "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > Cc: "Sarai list" < > > reader-list at sarai.net>> Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 4:07 PM> > > > Dear all,> > The link to the Noorani article in the Greater Kashmir > > Newspaper in > my earlier post got inadvertently truncated. Here is the > > correct link.> > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp? > > > Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> > Thanks, Tilak Upadhyay for pointing this > > out.> > best,> > Shuddha> > On 03-Sep-08, at 3:16 PM, Shuddhabrata > Sengupta > > wrote: Dear all> > > Dear All,> >> > An unusual intensity of hunger for > land > > unites corporations, state> > agencies and shrine boards in India. > Captains > > of Industry,> > politicians and land hungry divines seem to be more > > interested in> > acrage than in anything else. The Mahabharata mentions > the > > burning of> > the Khandava forest to appease a hungry god, inaugurating a > > long> > history of burnt and erased forests and commons. It appears as it > > we> > are surrounded now by 'hungry gods'. The Khandava-daha continues.> > >> > > > Be it Chengara (thanks, Anivar Aravind for keeping us updated about> > > the > > land struggle in Kerala, where the ruling CPI(M) led Left Front> > is > intent > > on displacing indigenous communities from their land), or> > Singur > (where > > again, the ruling CPI(M) wants to gift land 'free'> to a> > gigantic > > corporation or Amarnath, - the issues - remain the same -> > to do with > > state mediated acquisition of land, and the sequestering> > of either > > cultivator's land, or a natural commons into some form of> > 'gated' and > > 'fenced' land.> >> > There has been some premature media spin around the > > 'accord' that> has> > been reached with the Shree Amarnath Yatra > Sangharsh > > Samiti based in> > Jammu. On the face of it, the accord appears to grant > a > > limited usage> > right to the Shree Amarnath Shrine Board. On closer > reading > > of the> > text however, it becomes evident that the terms of this > 'accord'> > > are> > actually even more invasive than was the case with the substance > of> > > > the original gubernatorial 'land transfer' order in May.> >> > I am > > enclosing below - an article by A. G. Noorani, a well known> > legal > > historian and practitioner of constitutional law, titled> > 'An Immoral > and > > Illegal Accord' which was published in the Greater> > Kashmir newspaper > > today. It is available on line at -> > > > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?> > > > Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> >> > Noorani carefully reads the terms of > the > > Amarnath Accord in this> > article. As I had pointed out before on this > list > > (in my second post> > (dated 15th August, 2008) in the thread - 'Gun > Salutes > > for August> > 15' in response to Sonia Jabbar and Aditya Raj Kaul - the > > anger in> > Kashmir has a lot to do with the arbitrary acquisition of > land - > > I> > had shown, using state government figures, how the equivalent of > one> > > > in ten fruit orchards can be said to be under the occupation of the> > > Armed > > Forces. The 'Amarnath Land Transfer' issue needs to be seen> in> > this > > context.> >> > As long as that anger (regarding the alienation of land) > is > > not> > addressed, the people of Kashmir will have no reason, in my> > > > estimation, to think of themselves as anything but under a brutal and> > > > unrelenting occupation. The current 'Amarnath Accord' in my view,> > > worsens > > the situation, and can alienate the people of Kashmir (for> > the reasons > > that Noorani underlines below) even more. As such, it can> > only be > viewed > > as yet another provocation, yet another disaster, in> > the long and > > undistinguished record of the Government of India's> > tragic blundering > on > > Kashmir. It cannot but prove to be divisive in a> > situation that > urgently > > requires the opposite.> >> > regards> >> > Shuddha> >> > > > ====================================================================== > > > > > ==> > =======================> >> > An Immoral and Illegal Accord> > > Greater > > Kashmir, September 03, 2008> > A G NOORANI> >> > Srinagar, Sep 2: The > accord > > between the Jammu and Kashmir government> > and the Shri Amarnath Yatra > > Sangharsh Samiti on 31 August is far> > worse than the government's order > > only three months earlier on 26> > May. It grants the SAYSS concessions > > beyond what the May order did.> > It is one-sided and marks an abject > > surrender to violence, blockade> > and to communal forces. The > differences > > between the order and accord> > are glaring. Here is a list:> >> > 1. The > > order was made pursuant to a decision on 20 May by the cabinet> > in > which > > both Jammu and Kashmir were represented. The accord> > completely ignores > > Kashmir where the land is to be given. Jammu alone> > was represented. A > > week earlier, there was a clampdown in the Valley> > and top leaders were > > arrested.> >> > 2. Even the controversial order nowhere used the word > > "exclusive".> > The SAYSS felt so emboldened as to demand it and threaten > to > > wreck> > the deal if it was not conceded. The government yielded in the > > early> > hours of 31 August. Para 6A says that the Government "shall set > > aside> > for use by Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board exclusively the land in> > > > > Baltal and Domail". This order unknown anywhere in the world is> > > cloaked > > under a lie by calling it "traditionally under use for the> > annual > yatra > > purpose". The traditional route for over a century is> > the Pahalgam > route. > > The Baltal route is a recent demand. It was> > regarded by the Army and > > Nitish Sengupta Report as dangerous. It is> > also unnecessary if the > limit > > of yatris set by the Report (1 lakh) is> > observed.> >> > 3. This > violates > > the citizen's fundamental right under Art. 19 (1) D> > to move freely > > throughout India. The demand of exclusivity was not> > made even in May > 2008 > > or in decades earlier. It is pure communal> > aggression using the yatra > for > > political demonstration not religious> > piety.> >> > 4. The duration of > use > > is widened to cover pre and post yatra period.> > Para 6 C first says > that > > the land will be used "for the duration of> > the yatra" including the > > period of preparations and winding up. But> > the very next para has > these > > sinister words: "The aforesaid land> > shall be used according to the > > Board's requirements from time to> > time, including for the following". > > There follow 9 measures including> > construction, setting up of the > sheds > > and shops etc. These can be> > done even beyond the yatra period "from > time > > to time" and "according> > to the Board's requirements"; may be all the > year > > around.> >> > 5. Para 8 of the order insisted that the land "shall > return" > > to the> > State. This is dropped in the accord. This accomplishes S.K. > > Sinha's> > objective— permanent use the year round.> >> > 6. Also dropped > > totally is Para 4 on payment for user.> >> > 7. Dropped too is Para 6. An > > undertaking of "foolproof measures> > against water pollution and Para 7 > on > > payment of fine for damage to> > the forest. There is a pious provision > in > > accord Para 6 C (ix) among> > the objectives of land user; namely > > "undertaking measures relating to> > … preservation of ecology" etc. > Breach > > entails no fine.> >> > 8. The order of 26 May was rescinded on 1 July. > The > > accord will> > require a fresh order to implement it. By itself the > accord > > has no> > legal force. Section 2(a) of the J&K Forest (Conservation) Act > > 1997> > says "the Government shall not, except on a resolution of the > > Council> > of Ministers based on the advice of the Advisory Committee"> > > > constituted under the Act "make any order directing that any forest> > > land > > or any portion thereof may be used for any non-forest purpose".> > The > > earlier phrase "Council of ministers" merely was revised by an> > > amendment > > in 2001 and the Forest Advisory Committee's advice was> > added and made > > mandatory. "Council of Ministers" is specific. It is> > different from > "J&K > > Government" whose powers vest now in the> governor> > alone. The law > > intentionally provides the resolution as a safeguard.> > This Council can > > come into existence only after the next elections.> > In any case the > Forest > > Advisory Committees advice on 12 July 2007> > cannot apply to this new > > accord which must be vetted afresh by that> > Committee. It was given > before > > the Supreme Court's final judgment in> > the T M Godavarman case on 23 > > November 2007 which lays down the law> > and makes important observations > on > > balancing development with> > protection of environment. Failure to > consider > > it vitiates the> > decision. Precisely based on misrepresentation of > opinion > > of the> > deputy CM Muzaffar Hussain Beg and advocate general Altaf Naik > > both> > of which were given in entirely difference cases.> >> > The > accord > > lacks legal efficacy as well as moral and political> > legitimacy. Any > order > > in its implementation will be void in law. It> > is a pity that the state > > should bend all rules to buy peace with> > communal forces including > promise > > to consider compensation for law-> > breakers. What of compensation to > the > > Valley for the blockade? The> > parivar in Jammu has already begun asking > > for more. The Government> > has not bought peace but trouble. It is > > gunah-e-bey lazzat (sin> > without any taste.)> >> > If the state can > thus > > bend its knees before the Sangh parivar on an> > issue like this, what > hopes > > of justice can Kashmiris entertain when> > it comes to restoring the > raped > > Article 370 to a status of worth and> > respect?> >> > END> >> > > > ====================================================================== > > > > > ==> > =======================> >> >> >> > > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open > discussion > > list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To > subscribe: > > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the > > subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: < > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > Shuddhabrata Sengupta> > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS> Raqs Media Collective> shuddha at sarai.net> > > www.sarai.net> www.raqsmediacollective.net> > > > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open > discussion > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: > send > > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in> the subject > > header.> To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: < > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > > > > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open > discussion > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: > send > > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > > header.> To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: < > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Want to explore the world? Visit MSN Travel for the best deals. > > http://in.msn.com/coxandkings > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Rashneek Kher Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten Human Tragedy http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Sat Sep 6 12:31:08 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 12:31:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord In-Reply-To: <13df7c120809052249j449f2d1ahdbf3c72236d07f8b@mail.gmail.com> References: <821912.19661.qm@web57211.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <6353c690809030754n46e01c85va5267b772467649f@mail.gmail.com> <13df7c120809052249j449f2d1ahdbf3c72236d07f8b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0809060001o1e15116dkb2b0502462d8bd5f@mail.gmail.com> Really? Is that so? In which case every post shuddha writes, rife with inaccuracies and and ignorance, should immediately get a response from you setting the record straight. Instead, what we witness is a deafening silence. Be careful and intelligent about whom you choose as your adversaries Rashneek. And I think you are well aware of whose posts are generally ignored on this list and it certainly isn't Shuddha. regards Aarti On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 11:19 AM, rashneek kher wrote: > All that notwithstanding, Shuddha's knowledge and understanding of either > history or politics is of Kashmir is so poor or so full of inaccuries > (intentional as well ignorant) that it is time we start ignoring his posts > on Kashmir. > > Regards > > Rashneek > > On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 8:24 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul >wrote: > > > And, In a recent lecture in Jamia University, he was no different. > > Advocating pan-Islamist movement in Kashmir. > > > > On 9/3/08, Lalit Ambardar wrote: > > > > > > It is not surprising.AG Noorani is a known sympathiser of the Kashmiri > > pan > > > Islamists & their cause. He ran a campaign series in support of the > > > separatists in HT for years .The very fact that Noorani has chosen to > > call > > > Jammuites as 'communal forces' & 'parivar' & the accord itself as > > > 'gunah-e-bey lazzat' & describe those who attempt to seek "azadi -bara > -e > > > -Islam" as 'victims' says it all. > > > > > > Noorani once went overboard in " don't be fence-sitters " (HT New > > Delhi/May > > > 8, 2007) in his appreciation of Sayad Sallahudin of HM & the al-Qeada > > > affiliate LeT. In a bizarre coincidence , the day LeT chief allegedly > > > assured some Gen. Patankar of his willingness to come to India for > talks > > > (...????....) as claimed by Noorani in the article , that very day > Hafeez > > > Sayad confessed to the reporters in Islamabad about the existence of > > > terrorist infrastructure in Pakistan & declared his resolve to carry on > > the > > > 'jihad' to its logical conclusion (Ref. TNN/ Times of India, DEL/May8' > > 07/ > > > page no.13). > > > LA > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 03:55:11 -0700> From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> > > To: > > > shuddha at sarai.net> CC: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: > [Reader-list] > > > Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord> > > > > > > > > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1 > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > wrote:> > > > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Subject: Re: > > > [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord> To: > > > "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > Cc: "Sarai list" < > > > reader-list at sarai.net>> Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 4:07 PM> > > > > Dear all,> > The link to the Noorani article in the Greater Kashmir > > > Newspaper in > my earlier post got inadvertently truncated. Here is the > > > correct link.> > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp? > > > > Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> > Thanks, Tilak Upadhyay for pointing > this > > > out.> > best,> > Shuddha> > On 03-Sep-08, at 3:16 PM, Shuddhabrata > > Sengupta > > > wrote: Dear all> > > Dear All,> >> > An unusual intensity of hunger for > > land > > > unites corporations, state> > agencies and shrine boards in India. > > Captains > > > of Industry,> > politicians and land hungry divines seem to be more > > > interested in> > acrage than in anything else. The Mahabharata mentions > > the > > > burning of> > the Khandava forest to appease a hungry god, inaugurating > a > > > long> > history of burnt and erased forests and commons. It appears as > it > > > we> > are surrounded now by 'hungry gods'. The Khandava-daha > continues.> > > >> > > > > Be it Chengara (thanks, Anivar Aravind for keeping us updated about> > > > > the > > > land struggle in Kerala, where the ruling CPI(M) led Left Front> > is > > intent > > > on displacing indigenous communities from their land), or> > Singur > > (where > > > again, the ruling CPI(M) wants to gift land 'free'> to a> > gigantic > > > corporation or Amarnath, - the issues - remain the same -> > to do with > > > state mediated acquisition of land, and the sequestering> > of either > > > cultivator's land, or a natural commons into some form of> > 'gated' > and > > > 'fenced' land.> >> > There has been some premature media spin around > the > > > 'accord' that> has> > been reached with the Shree Amarnath Yatra > > Sangharsh > > > Samiti based in> > Jammu. On the face of it, the accord appears to > grant > > a > > > limited usage> > right to the Shree Amarnath Shrine Board. On closer > > reading > > > of the> > text however, it becomes evident that the terms of this > > 'accord'> > > > are> > actually even more invasive than was the case with the substance > > of> > > > > the original gubernatorial 'land transfer' order in May.> >> > I am > > > enclosing below - an article by A. G. Noorani, a well known> > legal > > > historian and practitioner of constitutional law, titled> > 'An Immoral > > and > > > Illegal Accord' which was published in the Greater> > Kashmir newspaper > > > today. It is available on line at -> > > > > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?> > > > > Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> >> > Noorani carefully reads the terms > of > > the > > > Amarnath Accord in this> > article. As I had pointed out before on this > > list > > > (in my second post> > (dated 15th August, 2008) in the thread - 'Gun > > Salutes > > > for August> > 15' in response to Sonia Jabbar and Aditya Raj Kaul - the > > > anger in> > Kashmir has a lot to do with the arbitrary acquisition of > > land - > > > I> > had shown, using state government figures, how the equivalent of > > one> > > > > in ten fruit orchards can be said to be under the occupation of the> > > > Armed > > > Forces. The 'Amarnath Land Transfer' issue needs to be seen> in> > this > > > context.> >> > As long as that anger (regarding the alienation of land) > > is > > > not> > addressed, the people of Kashmir will have no reason, in my> > > > > estimation, to think of themselves as anything but under a brutal and> > > > > > unrelenting occupation. The current 'Amarnath Accord' in my view,> > > > worsens > > > the situation, and can alienate the people of Kashmir (for> > the > reasons > > > that Noorani underlines below) even more. As such, it can> > only be > > viewed > > > as yet another provocation, yet another disaster, in> > the long and > > > undistinguished record of the Government of India's> > tragic > blundering > > on > > > Kashmir. It cannot but prove to be divisive in a> > situation that > > urgently > > > requires the opposite.> >> > regards> >> > Shuddha> >> > > > > ====================================================================== > > > > > > > > ==> > =======================> >> > An Immoral and Illegal Accord> > > > Greater > > > Kashmir, September 03, 2008> > A G NOORANI> >> > Srinagar, Sep 2: The > > accord > > > between the Jammu and Kashmir government> > and the Shri Amarnath Yatra > > > Sangharsh Samiti on 31 August is far> > worse than the government's > order > > > only three months earlier on 26> > May. It grants the SAYSS concessions > > > beyond what the May order did.> > It is one-sided and marks an abject > > > surrender to violence, blockade> > and to communal forces. The > > differences > > > between the order and accord> > are glaring. Here is a list:> >> > 1. > The > > > order was made pursuant to a decision on 20 May by the cabinet> > in > > which > > > both Jammu and Kashmir were represented. The accord> > completely > ignores > > > Kashmir where the land is to be given. Jammu alone> > was represented. > A > > > week earlier, there was a clampdown in the Valley> > and top leaders > were > > > arrested.> >> > 2. Even the controversial order nowhere used the word > > > "exclusive".> > The SAYSS felt so emboldened as to demand it and > threaten > > to > > > wreck> > the deal if it was not conceded. The government yielded in the > > > early> > hours of 31 August. Para 6A says that the Government "shall > set > > > aside> > for use by Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board exclusively the land > in> > > > > > > Baltal and Domail". This order unknown anywhere in the world is> > > > cloaked > > > under a lie by calling it "traditionally under use for the> > annual > > yatra > > > purpose". The traditional route for over a century is> > the Pahalgam > > route. > > > The Baltal route is a recent demand. It was> > regarded by the Army and > > > Nitish Sengupta Report as dangerous. It is> > also unnecessary if the > > limit > > > of yatris set by the Report (1 lakh) is> > observed.> >> > 3. This > > violates > > > the citizen's fundamental right under Art. 19 (1) D> > to move freely > > > throughout India. The demand of exclusivity was not> > made even in May > > 2008 > > > or in decades earlier. It is pure communal> > aggression using the > yatra > > for > > > political demonstration not religious> > piety.> >> > 4. The duration > of > > use > > > is widened to cover pre and post yatra period.> > Para 6 C first says > > that > > > the land will be used "for the duration of> > the yatra" including the > > > period of preparations and winding up. But> > the very next para has > > these > > > sinister words: "The aforesaid land> > shall be used according to the > > > Board's requirements from time to> > time, including for the > following". > > > There follow 9 measures including> > construction, setting up of the > > sheds > > > and shops etc. These can be> > done even beyond the yatra period "from > > time > > > to time" and "according> > to the Board's requirements"; may be all the > > year > > > around.> >> > 5. Para 8 of the order insisted that the land "shall > > return" > > > to the> > State. This is dropped in the accord. This accomplishes S.K. > > > Sinha's> > objective— permanent use the year round.> >> > 6. Also > dropped > > > totally is Para 4 on payment for user.> >> > 7. Dropped too is Para 6. > An > > > undertaking of "foolproof measures> > against water pollution and Para > 7 > > on > > > payment of fine for damage to> > the forest. There is a pious provision > > in > > > accord Para 6 C (ix) among> > the objectives of land user; namely > > > "undertaking measures relating to> > … preservation of ecology" etc. > > Breach > > > entails no fine.> >> > 8. The order of 26 May was rescinded on 1 July. > > The > > > accord will> > require a fresh order to implement it. By itself the > > accord > > > has no> > legal force. Section 2(a) of the J&K Forest (Conservation) > Act > > > 1997> > says "the Government shall not, except on a resolution of the > > > Council> > of Ministers based on the advice of the Advisory Committee"> > > > > > constituted under the Act "make any order directing that any forest> > > > land > > > or any portion thereof may be used for any non-forest purpose".> > The > > > earlier phrase "Council of ministers" merely was revised by an> > > > amendment > > > in 2001 and the Forest Advisory Committee's advice was> > added and > made > > > mandatory. "Council of Ministers" is specific. It is> > different from > > "J&K > > > Government" whose powers vest now in the> governor> > alone. The law > > > intentionally provides the resolution as a safeguard.> > This Council > can > > > come into existence only after the next elections.> > In any case the > > Forest > > > Advisory Committees advice on 12 July 2007> > cannot apply to this new > > > accord which must be vetted afresh by that> > Committee. It was given > > before > > > the Supreme Court's final judgment in> > the T M Godavarman case on 23 > > > November 2007 which lays down the law> > and makes important > observations > > on > > > balancing development with> > protection of environment. Failure to > > consider > > > it vitiates the> > decision. Precisely based on misrepresentation of > > opinion > > > of the> > deputy CM Muzaffar Hussain Beg and advocate general Altaf > Naik > > > both> > of which were given in entirely difference cases.> >> > The > > accord > > > lacks legal efficacy as well as moral and political> > legitimacy. Any > > order > > > in its implementation will be void in law. It> > is a pity that the > state > > > should bend all rules to buy peace with> > communal forces including > > promise > > > to consider compensation for law-> > breakers. What of compensation to > > the > > > Valley for the blockade? The> > parivar in Jammu has already begun > asking > > > for more. The Government> > has not bought peace but trouble. It is > > > gunah-e-bey lazzat (sin> > without any taste.)> >> > If the state can > > thus > > > bend its knees before the Sangh parivar on an> > issue like this, what > > hopes > > > of justice can Kashmiris entertain when> > it comes to restoring the > > raped > > > Article 370 to a status of worth and> > respect?> >> > END> >> > > > > ====================================================================== > > > > > > > > ==> > =======================> >> >> >> > > > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open > > discussion > > > list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To > > subscribe: > > > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in > the > > > subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: < > > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > Shuddhabrata > Sengupta> > > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS> Raqs Media Collective> shuddha at sarai.net> > > > www.sarai.net> www.raqsmediacollective.net> > > > > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open > > discussion > > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: > > send > > > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in> the > subject > > > header.> To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: < > > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > > > > > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open > > discussion > > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: > > send > > > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > subject > > > header.> To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: < > > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Want to explore the world? Visit MSN Travel for the best deals. > > > http://in.msn.com/coxandkings > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > Rashneek Kher > Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten Human Tragedy > http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com > http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From shuddha at sarai.net Sat Sep 6 13:03:05 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 13:03:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord In-Reply-To: <13df7c120809052249j449f2d1ahdbf3c72236d07f8b@mail.gmail.com> References: <821912.19661.qm@web57211.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <6353c690809030754n46e01c85va5267b772467649f@mail.gmail.com> <13df7c120809052249j449f2d1ahdbf3c72236d07f8b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5FA35A7B-6BDD-4286-B9D9-4669DE20482D@sarai.net> Dear Rashneek, Many thanks for pointing out how poor my knowledge and understanding of either history or politics in Kashmir is. I am always willing and open to learn. Its just that I have noticed, whenever I point something out, the argument from your quarter does not take the substance of what I say into account, and launches into a tirade against anti-nationalism and other pet hates. I remember, very precisely, that in reply to any of my posts, be they on the history, or the politics of your homeland, I am never met with a rebuttal based on what I have said. Even your long four part missive (in reply to my equally long four part missive) about the history of iconoclasm in Kashmir, actually did not take on board the substance of any of the points I had raised. instead, you merely repeated, as your are wont to do, ad nauseam, the very same things that you and some of your colleagues always say, and which I was trying to criticise. I had genuinely wished that your response to my criticism would bring to bear something of the intelligence that I believe you are capable of, even if in an adversarial manner. I was disappointed. There was no attempt at introspection on the fact that for instance, a claim that all iconoclasm had only one source (which was the purport of your arguments) was both disingenuous and misleading. It was an opportunity for you to have made your own case stronger, by not having to rely on a deeply distorted and one sided reading of a contentious history. You chose, unfortunately not to do that. What suffered, as a consequence, was your own cause. Here too, with this posting on Noorani's reading of the so called Amarnath Accord, I see a repetition of the same. No one has made an attempt to actually refute what he is saying. All that has been done is - a bad mouthing of him - saying he is sympathetic to pan Islamism, (without attributable quotations). It is not enough to say, as Lalit Ambardad says, "In a recent lecture in Jamia University, he was no different...Advocating pan-Islamist movement in Kashmir", for us to trust such a statement, we need to know an exact verifiable quotation, with a date and a time. Anything else is a malicious rumour. Even if he were sympathetic to Pan-Islamism in Kashmir, it would still not do to dismiss his ethical, legal and constitutional arguments by saying that he is. The only way to refute such an argument would be to show that the ethica, legal and constitutional positions he is taking are flawed. And this would have to be demonstrated, logically, in exactly the same manner as he demonstrates why the accord is flawed. Anything else, only amounts to your opinion, and I have no reason to trust that opinion.Even if the devil says 2+2=4, we cannot say, no it isn't, just because it is the devil that says so. George Orwell, in '1984', had sketched out a possibility of situations when societies find it convenient to have people say 2+2=5. I find, to my horror, that you and many other Indian nationalists often approximate a shrill rhetorical suppleness that is deeply reminiscent of '1984'. I have been considerably restrained on this list in the face of repeated personalized provocation, only because I think that responses to such provocations end up degrading the quality of our discussions. I find it deeply unfortunate that you, Aditya Lalit, Chanchal and Pawan, when pushed to the wall by arguments, have nothing other than abuse to offer. As I have said before, even your own cause demands better behaviour from you. And certainly, this list expects that you will consider very carefully your own conduct. Remember, this is a public record. It is archived. Someday, people will dig all this up, and then you and your conduct on this list, may appear very very shallow. regards, Shuddha On 06-Sep-08, at 11:19 AM, rashneek kher wrote: > All that notwithstanding, Shuddha's knowledge and understanding of > either > history or politics is of Kashmir is so poor or so full of inaccuries > (intentional as well ignorant) that it is time we start ignoring > his posts > on Kashmir. > > Regards > > Rashneek > > On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 8:24 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: > >> And, In a recent lecture in Jamia University, he was no different. >> Advocating pan-Islamist movement in Kashmir. >> >> On 9/3/08, Lalit Ambardar wrote: >>> >>> It is not surprising.AG Noorani is a known sympathiser of the >>> Kashmiri >> pan >>> Islamists & their cause. He ran a campaign series in support of the >>> separatists in HT for years .The very fact that Noorani has >>> chosen to >> call >>> Jammuites as 'communal forces' & 'parivar' & the accord itself as >>> 'gunah-e-bey lazzat' & describe those who attempt to seek "azadi - >>> bara -e >>> -Islam" as 'victims' says it all. >>> >>> Noorani once went overboard in " don't be fence-sitters " (HT New >> Delhi/May >>> 8, 2007) in his appreciation of Sayad Sallahudin of HM & the al- >>> Qeada >>> affiliate LeT. In a bizarre coincidence , the day LeT chief >>> allegedly >>> assured some Gen. Patankar of his willingness to come to India >>> for talks >>> (...????....) as claimed by Noorani in the article , that very >>> day Hafeez >>> Sayad confessed to the reporters in Islamabad about the existence of >>> terrorist infrastructure in Pakistan & declared his resolve to >>> carry on >> the >>> 'jihad' to its logical conclusion (Ref. TNN/ Times of India, DEL/ >>> May8' >> 07/ >>> page no.13). >>> LA >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 03:55:11 -0700> From: >>>> kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> >> To: >>> shuddha at sarai.net> CC: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: >>> [Reader-list] >>> Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord> > > >>> >> http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp? >> Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> >>>> >>>>> --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> wrote:> >>>> From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Subject: Re: >>> [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath >>> Accord> To: >>> "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > Cc: "Sarai list" < >>> reader-list at sarai.net>> Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 4:07 >>> PM> > >>> Dear all,> > The link to the Noorani article in the Greater Kashmir >>> Newspaper in > my earlier post got inadvertently truncated. Here >>> is the >>> correct link.> > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp? > >>> Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> > Thanks, Tilak Upadhyay for >>> pointing this >>> out.> > best,> > Shuddha> > On 03-Sep-08, at 3:16 PM, Shuddhabrata >> Sengupta >>> wrote: Dear all> > > Dear All,> >> > An unusual intensity of >>> hunger for >> land >>> unites corporations, state> > agencies and shrine boards in India. >> Captains >>> of Industry,> > politicians and land hungry divines seem to be more >>> interested in> > acrage than in anything else. The Mahabharata >>> mentions >> the >>> burning of> > the Khandava forest to appease a hungry god, >>> inaugurating a >>> long> > history of burnt and erased forests and commons. It >>> appears as it >>> we> > are surrounded now by 'hungry gods'. The Khandava-daha >>> continues.> >>>> >>>> Be it Chengara (thanks, Anivar Aravind for keeping us updated >>>> about> > >> the >>> land struggle in Kerala, where the ruling CPI(M) led Left Front> >>> > is >> intent >>> on displacing indigenous communities from their land), or> > Singur >> (where >>> again, the ruling CPI(M) wants to gift land 'free'> to a> > gigantic >>> corporation or Amarnath, - the issues - remain the same -> > to >>> do with >>> state mediated acquisition of land, and the sequestering> > of >>> either >>> cultivator's land, or a natural commons into some form of> > >>> 'gated' and >>> 'fenced' land.> >> > There has been some premature media spin >>> around the >>> 'accord' that> has> > been reached with the Shree Amarnath Yatra >> Sangharsh >>> Samiti based in> > Jammu. On the face of it, the accord appears >>> to grant >> a >>> limited usage> > right to the Shree Amarnath Shrine Board. On closer >> reading >>> of the> > text however, it becomes evident that the terms of this >> 'accord'> >>> are> > actually even more invasive than was the case with the >>> substance >> of> >>>> the original gubernatorial 'land transfer' order in May.> >> > I am >>> enclosing below - an article by A. G. Noorani, a well known> > legal >>> historian and practitioner of constitutional law, titled> > 'An >>> Immoral >> and >>> Illegal Accord' which was published in the Greater> > Kashmir >>> newspaper >>> today. It is available on line at -> > >>> http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?> > >>> Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> >> > Noorani carefully reads the >>> terms of >> the >>> Amarnath Accord in this> > article. As I had pointed out before >>> on this >> list >>> (in my second post> > (dated 15th August, 2008) in the thread - 'Gun >> Salutes >>> for August> > 15' in response to Sonia Jabbar and Aditya Raj Kaul >>> - the >>> anger in> > Kashmir has a lot to do with the arbitrary >>> acquisition of >> land - >>> I> > had shown, using state government figures, how the >>> equivalent of >> one> > >>> in ten fruit orchards can be said to be under the occupation of >>> the> > >> Armed >>> Forces. The 'Amarnath Land Transfer' issue needs to be seen> in> >>> > this >>> context.> >> > As long as that anger (regarding the alienation of >>> land) >> is >>> not> > addressed, the people of Kashmir will have no reason, in >>> my> > >>> estimation, to think of themselves as anything but under a brutal >>> and> > >>> unrelenting occupation. The current 'Amarnath Accord' in my view,> > >> worsens >>> the situation, and can alienate the people of Kashmir (for> > the >>> reasons >>> that Noorani underlines below) even more. As such, it can> > only be >> viewed >>> as yet another provocation, yet another disaster, in> > the long and >>> undistinguished record of the Government of India's> > tragic >>> blundering >> on >>> Kashmir. It cannot but prove to be divisive in a> > situation that >> urgently >>> requires the opposite.> >> > regards> >> > Shuddha> >> > >>> ==================================================================== >>> == > >>> >>> ==> > =======================> >> > An Immoral and Illegal Accord> > >> Greater >>> Kashmir, September 03, 2008> > A G NOORANI> >> > Srinagar, Sep 2: >>> The >> accord >>> between the Jammu and Kashmir government> > and the Shri Amarnath >>> Yatra >>> Sangharsh Samiti on 31 August is far> > worse than the >>> government's order >>> only three months earlier on 26> > May. It grants the SAYSS >>> concessions >>> beyond what the May order did.> > It is one-sided and marks an >>> abject >>> surrender to violence, blockade> > and to communal forces. The >> differences >>> between the order and accord> > are glaring. Here is a list:> >> >>> > 1. The >>> order was made pursuant to a decision on 20 May by the cabinet> > in >> which >>> both Jammu and Kashmir were represented. The accord> > completely >>> ignores >>> Kashmir where the land is to be given. Jammu alone> > was >>> represented. A >>> week earlier, there was a clampdown in the Valley> > and top >>> leaders were >>> arrested.> >> > 2. Even the controversial order nowhere used the >>> word >>> "exclusive".> > The SAYSS felt so emboldened as to demand it and >>> threaten >> to >>> wreck> > the deal if it was not conceded. The government yielded >>> in the >>> early> > hours of 31 August. Para 6A says that the Government >>> "shall set >>> aside> > for use by Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board exclusively the >>> land in> >>> >>> Baltal and Domail". This order unknown anywhere in the world is> > >> cloaked >>> under a lie by calling it "traditionally under use for the> > annual >> yatra >>> purpose". The traditional route for over a century is> > the >>> Pahalgam >> route. >>> The Baltal route is a recent demand. It was> > regarded by the >>> Army and >>> Nitish Sengupta Report as dangerous. It is> > also unnecessary if >>> the >> limit >>> of yatris set by the Report (1 lakh) is> > observed.> >> > 3. This >> violates >>> the citizen's fundamental right under Art. 19 (1) D> > to move >>> freely >>> throughout India. The demand of exclusivity was not> > made even >>> in May >> 2008 >>> or in decades earlier. It is pure communal> > aggression using >>> the yatra >> for >>> political demonstration not religious> > piety.> >> > 4. The >>> duration of >> use >>> is widened to cover pre and post yatra period.> > Para 6 C first >>> says >> that >>> the land will be used "for the duration of> > the yatra" >>> including the >>> period of preparations and winding up. But> > the very next para has >> these >>> sinister words: "The aforesaid land> > shall be used according to >>> the >>> Board's requirements from time to> > time, including for the >>> following". >>> There follow 9 measures including> > construction, setting up of the >> sheds >>> and shops etc. These can be> > done even beyond the yatra period >>> "from >> time >>> to time" and "according> > to the Board's requirements"; may be >>> all the >> year >>> around.> >> > 5. Para 8 of the order insisted that the land "shall >> return" >>> to the> > State. This is dropped in the accord. This accomplishes >>> S.K. >>> Sinha's> > objective— permanent use the year round.> >> > 6. Also >>> dropped >>> totally is Para 4 on payment for user.> >> > 7. Dropped too is >>> Para 6. An >>> undertaking of "foolproof measures> > against water pollution and >>> Para 7 >> on >>> payment of fine for damage to> > the forest. There is a pious >>> provision >> in >>> accord Para 6 C (ix) among> > the objectives of land user; namely >>> "undertaking measures relating to> > … preservation of ecology" etc. >> Breach >>> entails no fine.> >> > 8. The order of 26 May was rescinded on 1 >>> July. >> The >>> accord will> > require a fresh order to implement it. By itself the >> accord >>> has no> > legal force. Section 2(a) of the J&K Forest >>> (Conservation) Act >>> 1997> > says "the Government shall not, except on a resolution of >>> the >>> Council> > of Ministers based on the advice of the Advisory >>> Committee"> > >>> constituted under the Act "make any order directing that any >>> forest> > >> land >>> or any portion thereof may be used for any non-forest purpose".> >>> > The >>> earlier phrase "Council of ministers" merely was revised by an> > >> amendment >>> in 2001 and the Forest Advisory Committee's advice was> > added >>> and made >>> mandatory. "Council of Ministers" is specific. It is> > different >>> from >> "J&K >>> Government" whose powers vest now in the> governor> > alone. The law >>> intentionally provides the resolution as a safeguard.> > This >>> Council can >>> come into existence only after the next elections.> > In any case >>> the >> Forest >>> Advisory Committees advice on 12 July 2007> > cannot apply to >>> this new >>> accord which must be vetted afresh by that> > Committee. It was >>> given >> before >>> the Supreme Court's final judgment in> > the T M Godavarman case >>> on 23 >>> November 2007 which lays down the law> > and makes important >>> observations >> on >>> balancing development with> > protection of environment. Failure to >> consider >>> it vitiates the> > decision. Precisely based on misrepresentation of >> opinion >>> of the> > deputy CM Muzaffar Hussain Beg and advocate general >>> Altaf Naik >>> both> > of which were given in entirely difference cases.> >> > The >> accord >>> lacks legal efficacy as well as moral and political> > >>> legitimacy. Any >> order >>> in its implementation will be void in law. It> > is a pity that >>> the state >>> should bend all rules to buy peace with> > communal forces including >> promise >>> to consider compensation for law-> > breakers. What of >>> compensation to >> the >>> Valley for the blockade? The> > parivar in Jammu has already >>> begun asking >>> for more. The Government> > has not bought peace but trouble. It is >>> gunah-e-bey lazzat (sin> > without any taste.)> >> > If the state >>> can >> thus >>> bend its knees before the Sangh parivar on an> > issue like this, >>> what >> hopes >>> of justice can Kashmiris entertain when> > it comes to restoring the >> raped >>> Article 370 to a status of worth and> > respect?> >> > END> >> > >>> ==================================================================== >>> == > >>> >>> ==> > =======================> >> >> >> > >>> _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open >> discussion >>> list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To >> subscribe: >>> send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe >>> in the >>> subject header.> > To unsubscribe: >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List >>> archive: < >>> https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > Shuddhabrata >>> Sengupta> >>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS> Raqs Media Collective> >>> shuddha at sarai.net> >>> www.sarai.net> www.raqsmediacollective.net> > > >>> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open >> discussion >>> list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To >>> subscribe: >> send >>> an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in> the >>> subject >>> header.> To unsubscribe: >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List >>> archive: < >>> https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > > > >>> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open >> discussion >>> list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To >>> subscribe: >> send >>> an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the >>> subject >>> header.> To unsubscribe: >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List >>> archive: < >>> https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> _________________________________________________________________ >>> Want to explore the world? Visit MSN Travel for the best deals. >>> http://in.msn.com/coxandkings >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > Rashneek Kher > Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten Human Tragedy > http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com > http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Sep 6 14:00:01 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 14:00:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord In-Reply-To: <5FA35A7B-6BDD-4286-B9D9-4669DE20482D@sarai.net> References: <821912.19661.qm@web57211.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <6353c690809030754n46e01c85va5267b772467649f@mail.gmail.com> <13df7c120809052249j449f2d1ahdbf3c72236d07f8b@mail.gmail.com> <5FA35A7B-6BDD-4286-B9D9-4669DE20482D@sarai.net> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70809060130x3ebf3e25hd1ef226bdce2ed93@mail.gmail.com> If there is a living encyclopedia on Kashmir, it has to be Shuddha. If that makes you happy..... Wonder why you go into a "maun vrat" when likes of Murtaza give a distorted picture about Kashmir or does that fit into your agenda....????/ Pawan Durani On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 1:03 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear Rashneek, > > Many thanks for pointing out how poor my knowledge and understanding > of either history or politics in Kashmir is. I am always willing and > open to learn. > > Its just that I have noticed, whenever I point something out, the > argument from your quarter does not take the substance of what I say > into account, and launches into a tirade against anti-nationalism and > other pet hates. I remember, very precisely, that in reply to any of > my posts, be they on the history, or the politics of your homeland, I > am never met with a rebuttal based on what I have said. Even your > long four part missive (in reply to my equally long four part > missive) about the history of iconoclasm in Kashmir, actually did not > take on board the substance of any of the points I had raised. > instead, you merely repeated, as your are wont to do, ad nauseam, the > very same things that you and some of your colleagues always say, and > which I was trying to criticise. I had genuinely wished that your > response to my criticism would bring to bear something of the > intelligence that I believe you are capable of, even if in an > adversarial manner. I was disappointed. > > There was no attempt at introspection on the fact that for > instance, a claim that all iconoclasm had only one source (which was > the purport of your arguments) was both disingenuous and misleading. > It was an opportunity for you to have made your own case stronger, by > not having to rely on a deeply distorted and one sided reading of a > contentious history. You chose, unfortunately not to do that. What > suffered, as a consequence, was your own cause. > > Here too, with this posting on Noorani's reading of the so called > Amarnath Accord, I see a repetition of the same. No one has made an > attempt to actually refute what he is saying. All that has been done > is - a bad mouthing of him - saying he is sympathetic to pan > Islamism, (without attributable quotations). It is not enough to say, > as Lalit Ambardad says, "In a recent lecture in Jamia University, he > was no different...Advocating pan-Islamist movement in Kashmir", for > us to trust such a statement, we need to know an exact verifiable > quotation, with a date and a time. Anything else is a malicious rumour. > > Even if he were sympathetic to Pan-Islamism in Kashmir, it would > still not do to dismiss his ethical, legal and constitutional > arguments by saying that he is. The only way to refute such an > argument would be to show that the ethica, legal and constitutional > positions he is taking are flawed. And this would have to be > demonstrated, logically, in exactly the same manner as he > demonstrates why the accord is flawed. Anything else, only amounts to > your opinion, and I have no reason to trust that opinion.Even if the > devil says 2+2=4, we cannot say, no it isn't, just because it is the > devil that says so. George Orwell, in '1984', had sketched out a > possibility of situations when societies find it convenient to have > people say 2+2=5. I find, to my horror, that you and many other > Indian nationalists often approximate a shrill rhetorical suppleness > that is deeply reminiscent of '1984'. > > I have been considerably restrained on this list in the face of > repeated personalized provocation, only because I think that > responses to such provocations end up degrading the quality of our > discussions. I find it deeply unfortunate that you, Aditya Lalit, > Chanchal and Pawan, when pushed to the wall by arguments, have > nothing other than abuse to offer. As I have said before, even your > own cause demands better behaviour from you. And certainly, this list > expects that you will consider very carefully your own conduct. > Remember, this is a public record. It is archived. Someday, people > will dig all this up, and then you and your conduct on this list, may > appear very very shallow. > > regards, > > Shuddha > > > > > > On 06-Sep-08, at 11:19 AM, rashneek kher wrote: > > > All that notwithstanding, Shuddha's knowledge and understanding of > > either > > history or politics is of Kashmir is so poor or so full of inaccuries > > (intentional as well ignorant) that it is time we start ignoring > > his posts > > on Kashmir. > > > > Regards > > > > Rashneek > > > > On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 8:24 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > > wrote: > > > >> And, In a recent lecture in Jamia University, he was no different. > >> Advocating pan-Islamist movement in Kashmir. > >> > >> On 9/3/08, Lalit Ambardar wrote: > >>> > >>> It is not surprising.AG Noorani is a known sympathiser of the > >>> Kashmiri > >> pan > >>> Islamists & their cause. He ran a campaign series in support of the > >>> separatists in HT for years .The very fact that Noorani has > >>> chosen to > >> call > >>> Jammuites as 'communal forces' & 'parivar' & the accord itself as > >>> 'gunah-e-bey lazzat' & describe those who attempt to seek "azadi - > >>> bara -e > >>> -Islam" as 'victims' says it all. > >>> > >>> Noorani once went overboard in " don't be fence-sitters " (HT New > >> Delhi/May > >>> 8, 2007) in his appreciation of Sayad Sallahudin of HM & the al- > >>> Qeada > >>> affiliate LeT. In a bizarre coincidence , the day LeT chief > >>> allegedly > >>> assured some Gen. Patankar of his willingness to come to India > >>> for talks > >>> (...????....) as claimed by Noorani in the article , that very > >>> day Hafeez > >>> Sayad confessed to the reporters in Islamabad about the existence of > >>> terrorist infrastructure in Pakistan & declared his resolve to > >>> carry on > >> the > >>> 'jihad' to its logical conclusion (Ref. TNN/ Times of India, DEL/ > >>> May8' > >> 07/ > >>> page no.13). > >>> LA > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>> Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 03:55:11 -0700> From: > >>>> kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com> > >> To: > >>> shuddha at sarai.net> CC: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: > >>> [Reader-list] > >>> Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord> > > > >>> > >> http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp? > >> Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> > >>>> > >>>>> --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > >> wrote:> > >>>> From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Subject: Re: > >>> [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath > >>> Accord> To: > >>> "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > Cc: "Sarai list" < > >>> reader-list at sarai.net>> Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 4:07 > >>> PM> > > >>> Dear all,> > The link to the Noorani article in the Greater Kashmir > >>> Newspaper in > my earlier post got inadvertently truncated. Here > >>> is the > >>> correct link.> > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp? > > >>> Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> > Thanks, Tilak Upadhyay for > >>> pointing this > >>> out.> > best,> > Shuddha> > On 03-Sep-08, at 3:16 PM, Shuddhabrata > >> Sengupta > >>> wrote: Dear all> > > Dear All,> >> > An unusual intensity of > >>> hunger for > >> land > >>> unites corporations, state> > agencies and shrine boards in India. > >> Captains > >>> of Industry,> > politicians and land hungry divines seem to be more > >>> interested in> > acrage than in anything else. The Mahabharata > >>> mentions > >> the > >>> burning of> > the Khandava forest to appease a hungry god, > >>> inaugurating a > >>> long> > history of burnt and erased forests and commons. It > >>> appears as it > >>> we> > are surrounded now by 'hungry gods'. The Khandava-daha > >>> continues.> > >>>> > >>>> Be it Chengara (thanks, Anivar Aravind for keeping us updated > >>>> about> > > >> the > >>> land struggle in Kerala, where the ruling CPI(M) led Left Front> > >>> > is > >> intent > >>> on displacing indigenous communities from their land), or> > Singur > >> (where > >>> again, the ruling CPI(M) wants to gift land 'free'> to a> > gigantic > >>> corporation or Amarnath, - the issues - remain the same -> > to > >>> do with > >>> state mediated acquisition of land, and the sequestering> > of > >>> either > >>> cultivator's land, or a natural commons into some form of> > > >>> 'gated' and > >>> 'fenced' land.> >> > There has been some premature media spin > >>> around the > >>> 'accord' that> has> > been reached with the Shree Amarnath Yatra > >> Sangharsh > >>> Samiti based in> > Jammu. On the face of it, the accord appears > >>> to grant > >> a > >>> limited usage> > right to the Shree Amarnath Shrine Board. On closer > >> reading > >>> of the> > text however, it becomes evident that the terms of this > >> 'accord'> > >>> are> > actually even more invasive than was the case with the > >>> substance > >> of> > >>>> the original gubernatorial 'land transfer' order in May.> >> > I am > >>> enclosing below - an article by A. G. Noorani, a well known> > legal > >>> historian and practitioner of constitutional law, titled> > 'An > >>> Immoral > >> and > >>> Illegal Accord' which was published in the Greater> > Kashmir > >>> newspaper > >>> today. It is available on line at -> > > >>> http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?> > > >>> Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> >> > Noorani carefully reads the > >>> terms of > >> the > >>> Amarnath Accord in this> > article. As I had pointed out before > >>> on this > >> list > >>> (in my second post> > (dated 15th August, 2008) in the thread - 'Gun > >> Salutes > >>> for August> > 15' in response to Sonia Jabbar and Aditya Raj Kaul > >>> - the > >>> anger in> > Kashmir has a lot to do with the arbitrary > >>> acquisition of > >> land - > >>> I> > had shown, using state government figures, how the > >>> equivalent of > >> one> > > >>> in ten fruit orchards can be said to be under the occupation of > >>> the> > > >> Armed > >>> Forces. The 'Amarnath Land Transfer' issue needs to be seen> in> > >>> > this > >>> context.> >> > As long as that anger (regarding the alienation of > >>> land) > >> is > >>> not> > addressed, the people of Kashmir will have no reason, in > >>> my> > > >>> estimation, to think of themselves as anything but under a brutal > >>> and> > > >>> unrelenting occupation. The current 'Amarnath Accord' in my view,> > > >> worsens > >>> the situation, and can alienate the people of Kashmir (for> > the > >>> reasons > >>> that Noorani underlines below) even more. As such, it can> > only be > >> viewed > >>> as yet another provocation, yet another disaster, in> > the long and > >>> undistinguished record of the Government of India's> > tragic > >>> blundering > >> on > >>> Kashmir. It cannot but prove to be divisive in a> > situation that > >> urgently > >>> requires the opposite.> >> > regards> >> > Shuddha> >> > > >>> ==================================================================== > >>> == > > >>> > >>> ==> > =======================> >> > An Immoral and Illegal Accord> > > >> Greater > >>> Kashmir, September 03, 2008> > A G NOORANI> >> > Srinagar, Sep 2: > >>> The > >> accord > >>> between the Jammu and Kashmir government> > and the Shri Amarnath > >>> Yatra > >>> Sangharsh Samiti on 31 August is far> > worse than the > >>> government's order > >>> only three months earlier on 26> > May. It grants the SAYSS > >>> concessions > >>> beyond what the May order did.> > It is one-sided and marks an > >>> abject > >>> surrender to violence, blockade> > and to communal forces. The > >> differences > >>> between the order and accord> > are glaring. Here is a list:> >> > >>> > 1. The > >>> order was made pursuant to a decision on 20 May by the cabinet> > in > >> which > >>> both Jammu and Kashmir were represented. The accord> > completely > >>> ignores > >>> Kashmir where the land is to be given. Jammu alone> > was > >>> represented. A > >>> week earlier, there was a clampdown in the Valley> > and top > >>> leaders were > >>> arrested.> >> > 2. Even the controversial order nowhere used the > >>> word > >>> "exclusive".> > The SAYSS felt so emboldened as to demand it and > >>> threaten > >> to > >>> wreck> > the deal if it was not conceded. The government yielded > >>> in the > >>> early> > hours of 31 August. Para 6A says that the Government > >>> "shall set > >>> aside> > for use by Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board exclusively the > >>> land in> > >>> > >>> Baltal and Domail". This order unknown anywhere in the world is> > > >> cloaked > >>> under a lie by calling it "traditionally under use for the> > annual > >> yatra > >>> purpose". The traditional route for over a century is> > the > >>> Pahalgam > >> route. > >>> The Baltal route is a recent demand. It was> > regarded by the > >>> Army and > >>> Nitish Sengupta Report as dangerous. It is> > also unnecessary if > >>> the > >> limit > >>> of yatris set by the Report (1 lakh) is> > observed.> >> > 3. This > >> violates > >>> the citizen's fundamental right under Art. 19 (1) D> > to move > >>> freely > >>> throughout India. The demand of exclusivity was not> > made even > >>> in May > >> 2008 > >>> or in decades earlier. It is pure communal> > aggression using > >>> the yatra > >> for > >>> political demonstration not religious> > piety.> >> > 4. The > >>> duration of > >> use > >>> is widened to cover pre and post yatra period.> > Para 6 C first > >>> says > >> that > >>> the land will be used "for the duration of> > the yatra" > >>> including the > >>> period of preparations and winding up. But> > the very next para has > >> these > >>> sinister words: "The aforesaid land> > shall be used according to > >>> the > >>> Board's requirements from time to> > time, including for the > >>> following". > >>> There follow 9 measures including> > construction, setting up of the > >> sheds > >>> and shops etc. These can be> > done even beyond the yatra period > >>> "from > >> time > >>> to time" and "according> > to the Board's requirements"; may be > >>> all the > >> year > >>> around.> >> > 5. Para 8 of the order insisted that the land "shall > >> return" > >>> to the> > State. This is dropped in the accord. This accomplishes > >>> S.K. > >>> Sinha's> > objective— permanent use the year round.> >> > 6. Also > >>> dropped > >>> totally is Para 4 on payment for user.> >> > 7. Dropped too is > >>> Para 6. An > >>> undertaking of "foolproof measures> > against water pollution and > >>> Para 7 > >> on > >>> payment of fine for damage to> > the forest. There is a pious > >>> provision > >> in > >>> accord Para 6 C (ix) among> > the objectives of land user; namely > >>> "undertaking measures relating to> > … preservation of ecology" etc. > >> Breach > >>> entails no fine.> >> > 8. The order of 26 May was rescinded on 1 > >>> July. > >> The > >>> accord will> > require a fresh order to implement it. By itself the > >> accord > >>> has no> > legal force. Section 2(a) of the J&K Forest > >>> (Conservation) Act > >>> 1997> > says "the Government shall not, except on a resolution of > >>> the > >>> Council> > of Ministers based on the advice of the Advisory > >>> Committee"> > > >>> constituted under the Act "make any order directing that any > >>> forest> > > >> land > >>> or any portion thereof may be used for any non-forest purpose".> > >>> > The > >>> earlier phrase "Council of ministers" merely was revised by an> > > >> amendment > >>> in 2001 and the Forest Advisory Committee's advice was> > added > >>> and made > >>> mandatory. "Council of Ministers" is specific. It is> > different > >>> from > >> "J&K > >>> Government" whose powers vest now in the> governor> > alone. The law > >>> intentionally provides the resolution as a safeguard.> > This > >>> Council can > >>> come into existence only after the next elections.> > In any case > >>> the > >> Forest > >>> Advisory Committees advice on 12 July 2007> > cannot apply to > >>> this new > >>> accord which must be vetted afresh by that> > Committee. It was > >>> given > >> before > >>> the Supreme Court's final judgment in> > the T M Godavarman case > >>> on 23 > >>> November 2007 which lays down the law> > and makes important > >>> observations > >> on > >>> balancing development with> > protection of environment. Failure to > >> consider > >>> it vitiates the> > decision. Precisely based on misrepresentation of > >> opinion > >>> of the> > deputy CM Muzaffar Hussain Beg and advocate general > >>> Altaf Naik > >>> both> > of which were given in entirely difference cases.> >> > The > >> accord > >>> lacks legal efficacy as well as moral and political> > > >>> legitimacy. Any > >> order > >>> in its implementation will be void in law. It> > is a pity that > >>> the state > >>> should bend all rules to buy peace with> > communal forces including > >> promise > >>> to consider compensation for law-> > breakers. What of > >>> compensation to > >> the > >>> Valley for the blockade? The> > parivar in Jammu has already > >>> begun asking > >>> for more. The Government> > has not bought peace but trouble. It is > >>> gunah-e-bey lazzat (sin> > without any taste.)> >> > If the state > >>> can > >> thus > >>> bend its knees before the Sangh parivar on an> > issue like this, > >>> what > >> hopes > >>> of justice can Kashmiris entertain when> > it comes to restoring the > >> raped > >>> Article 370 to a status of worth and> > respect?> >> > END> >> > > >>> ==================================================================== > >>> == > > >>> > >>> ==> > =======================> >> >> >> > > >>> _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open > >> discussion > >>> list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To > >> subscribe: > >>> send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe > >>> in the > >>> subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List > >>> archive: < > >>> https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > Shuddhabrata > >>> Sengupta> > >>> The Sarai Programme at CSDS> Raqs Media Collective> > >>> shuddha at sarai.net> > >>> www.sarai.net> www.raqsmediacollective.net> > > > >>> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open > >> discussion > >>> list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To > >>> subscribe: > >> send > >>> an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in> the > >>> subject > >>> header.> To unsubscribe: > >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List > >>> archive: < > >>> https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > > > > >>> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open > >> discussion > >>> list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To > >>> subscribe: > >> send > >>> an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > >>> subject > >>> header.> To unsubscribe: > >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List > >>> archive: < > >>> https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>> _________________________________________________________________ > >>> Want to explore the world? Visit MSN Travel for the best deals. > >>> http://in.msn.com/coxandkings > >>> _________________________________________ > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> List archive: > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Rashneek Kher > > Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten Human Tragedy > > http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com > > http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From ishwarsridharan at yahoo.com Sat Sep 6 18:07:15 2008 From: ishwarsridharan at yahoo.com (Ishwar) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 05:37:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions Message-ID: <138223.70651.qm@web31809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Kudos to a well-written reply, andofcourse, to TeadBeeDi too :) While we're at it, how about a little bit of thought on this too? While questioning religious communities' monopoly on "hurt", one must also take into consideration frameworks. Religious frameworks by their very nature have the concept of blasphemy, to various degrees, be it 'kadavul kutram' (blasphemous talk against the divine) from where I come, to blasphemy laws, etc.wherein the concept of individual liberty is weighed down in front of a higher divine. As liberals(or feminists or apathetists, or any ists), we have chosen/adopted/devised our own framework which channelises such hurt to productive means.The world has other frameworks too. Taking this concept of channelising hurt to a different religious framework and expecting it to be adopted/respected is as naive as, say, a scientist expecting his/her ideas on non-existence of god, or proof of evolution to be accepted by the religious community. That religious frameworks can change is a different discussion altogether. Ishwar Just another resurrected Neozoic Archosaur comics. http://www.flickr.com/photos/mojosaurus/sets/72157600257724083/ ----- Original Message ---- From: Aarti Sethi To: inder salim Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Thursday, September 4, 2008 2:39:27 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions A few thoughts on an interesting discussion. One term I think that has remained unexamined in this discussion is "hurt" or "sentiment". By this I mean not an assessment of whether that hurt is justified, valid etc, who is to decide whether this offends or not, whether this is offensive or not, the relative self-sufficiency of value systems and speaking across them. But the inherent value of hurt as a positive force in itself. Let me try and explain what I mean. Why is "hurt sentiment" a bad thing in itself? Can having one's sentiments hurt, sometimes quite badly, not be a positive force? Might it not impell me to re-think, or think, about my sentiments in a manner that is creative? Maybe those sentiments are better discarded. Maybe my outrage alerts me to a violence I have been commiting without realising it. Maybe if more people's sentiments were outraged a little more forcefully, then we would be living in a far more democratic and tolerant world. Further, I do not see why only religious communities have a monopoly on sentiments which can then be hurt. As a feminist, my sentiments are assaulted on a routine and regular basis. As someone who believes in a version of social justice and equality, once articulated by, but not only by, Marx for instance, my feelings are continually trampled over. As someone who believes in a secular vision, the discussions on this list offend me everyday. However i do not see this being taken very seriously. And it needn't, that is the point. It is up to me to alchemize this outrage, hurt, sadness in a manner that enables me to live and act in the world. This is actually how we live our lives generally. My mother, or father, or lover, or friend might say something that hurts me terribly. Not always is this clarified, discussed, put in its right perspective. All our lives are all littered with silent archives of hurts we have never expressed. There is no heroic moment in which resolution is sought for hurts. And no one can do this for anyone... The recent Vogue advertisements doing the rounds, around which there has been some discussion on this list, have hurt the sentiments of many people. A few years ago another set of advertisements for brand equity in which two tribal women are shown discussing the tans they have got in Monte Carlo to an accompanying snide and contemptous copy which said something about how advertisers need to accurately reach their consumers, also outraged many of us. Having thought about this, I realised that though both the Vogue ads and the brand equity ads trouble me, they do so in different ways. The Vogue ads can be read in one of many ways - that it posits a horizon of desire that is unachievable for the people it uses for the ad. In some sense then the frisson of the ad derives from the discrepancy in what is desired and what is possible. Further it assumes that their horizon of desire will follow the trajectory laid out by Vogue. But most interesting to me is that both Vogue and the critics work with a fixed definition of poverty in the first place, and certain trajectory of the direction a life can take. The second set of ads function on precisely the opposite principle. Rather than positing an eventual horizon of desire, they deem a present life as failed, and urges us to recognise its failure. It presumes and makes me complicit in a social consensus in which we can use languages in a manner as if we are all agreed on the terms in operation. Can you see the difference in both ads? They both trouble me deeply, but they trouble me in different ways. How is this at all useful, or valuable? I think it is. I think to be able to carefully work through how and why and in what ways something arrives to me and what it disturbs is a critical thing, if we are to fashion any sort of language to deal with the violence of the present. with regards Aarti From ishwarsridharan at yahoo.com Sat Sep 6 18:38:15 2008 From: ishwarsridharan at yahoo.com (Ishwar) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 06:08:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions Message-ID: <552576.52931.qm@web31814.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In short, what I wanted to say was this - Do religious communities have a monopoly on hurt - No Do I, as a believer in individual's rights have a right to get hurt - Again, no, because of my choices. Ishwar Just another resurrected Neozoic Archosaur comics. http://www.flickr.com/photos/mojosaurus/sets/72157600257724083/ ----- Original Message ---- From: Ishwar To: Aarti Sethi ; inder salim ; Sarai Reader-list Sent: Saturday, September 6, 2008 6:07:15 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions Kudos to a well-written reply, andofcourse, to TeadBeeDi too :) While we're at it, how about a little bit of thought on this too? While questioning religious communities' monopoly on "hurt", one must also take into consideration frameworks. Religious frameworks by their very nature have the concept of blasphemy, to various degrees, be it 'kadavul kutram' (blasphemous talk against the divine) from where I come, to blasphemy laws, etc.wherein the concept of individual liberty is weighed down in front of a higher divine. As liberals(or feminists or apathetists, or any ists), we have chosen/adopted/devised our own framework which channelises such hurt to productive means.The world has other frameworks too. Taking this concept of channelising hurt to a different religious framework and expecting it to be adopted/respected is as naive as, say, a scientist expecting his/her ideas on non-existence of god, or proof of evolution to be accepted by the religious community. That religious frameworks can change is a different discussion altogether. Ishwar Just another resurrected Neozoic Archosaur comics. http://www.flickr.com/photos/mojosaurus/sets/72157600257724083/ From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 6 19:10:07 2008 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 06:40:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions In-Reply-To: <138223.70651.qm@web31809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <236372.8677.qm@web51406.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Ishwar I can't decide whether I agree with you or not, but a friend of mine (to whom I was telling about this discussion) echoes your point. According to him, if the religious people have a monopoly on "hurt", the artists have a monopoly on "taking liberties". So these two "rights" should balance out each other, and no one should complain... Yousuf --- On Sat, 9/6/08, Ishwar wrote: From: Ishwar Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions To: "Aarti Sethi" , "inder salim" , "Sarai Reader-list" Date: Saturday, September 6, 2008, 6:07 PM Kudos to a well-written reply, andofcourse, to TeadBeeDi too :) While we're at it, how about a little bit of thought on this too? While questioning religious communities' monopoly on "hurt", one must also take into consideration frameworks. Religious frameworks by their very nature have the concept of blasphemy, to various degrees, be it 'kadavul kutram' (blasphemous talk against the divine) from where I come, to blasphemy laws, etc.wherein the concept of individual liberty is weighed down in front of a higher divine. As liberals(or feminists or apathetists, or any ists), we have chosen/adopted/devised our own framework which channelises such hurt to productive means.The world has other frameworks too. Taking this concept of channelising hurt to a different religious framework and expecting it to be adopted/respected is as naive as, say, a scientist expecting his/her ideas on non-existence of god, or proof of evolution to be accepted by the religious community. That religious frameworks can change is a different discussion altogether. Ishwar Just another resurrected Neozoic Archosaur comics. http://www.flickr.com/photos/mojosaurus/sets/72157600257724083/ ----- Original Message ---- From: Aarti Sethi To: inder salim Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Thursday, September 4, 2008 2:39:27 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions A few thoughts on an interesting discussion. One term I think that has remained unexamined in this discussion is "hurt" or "sentiment". By this I mean not an assessment of whether that hurt is justified, valid etc, who is to decide whether this offends or not, whether this is offensive or not, the relative self-sufficiency of value systems and speaking across them. But the inherent value of hurt as a positive force in itself. Let me try and explain what I mean. Why is "hurt sentiment" a bad thing in itself? Can having one's sentiments hurt, sometimes quite badly, not be a positive force? Might it not impell me to re-think, or think, about my sentiments in a manner that is creative? Maybe those sentiments are better discarded. Maybe my outrage alerts me to a violence I have been commiting without realising it. Maybe if more people's sentiments were outraged a little more forcefully, then we would be living in a far more democratic and tolerant world. Further, I do not see why only religious communities have a monopoly on sentiments which can then be hurt. As a feminist, my sentiments are assaulted on a routine and regular basis. As someone who believes in a version of social justice and equality, once articulated by, but not only by, Marx for instance, my feelings are continually trampled over. As someone who believes in a secular vision, the discussions on this list offend me everyday. However i do not see this being taken very seriously. And it needn't, that is the point. It is up to me to alchemize this outrage, hurt, sadness in a manner that enables me to live and act in the world. This is actually how we live our lives generally. My mother, or father, or lover, or friend might say something that hurts me terribly. Not always is this clarified, discussed, put in its right perspective. All our lives are all littered with silent archives of hurts we have never expressed. There is no heroic moment in which resolution is sought for hurts. And no one can do this for anyone... The recent Vogue advertisements doing the rounds, around which there has been some discussion on this list, have hurt the sentiments of many people. A few years ago another set of advertisements for brand equity in which two tribal women are shown discussing the tans they have got in Monte Carlo to an accompanying snide and contemptous copy which said something about how advertisers need to accurately reach their consumers, also outraged many of us. Having thought about this, I realised that though both the Vogue ads and the brand equity ads trouble me, they do so in different ways. The Vogue ads can be read in one of many ways - that it posits a horizon of desire that is unachievable for the people it uses for the ad. In some sense then the frisson of the ad derives from the discrepancy in what is desired and what is possible. Further it assumes that their horizon of desire will follow the trajectory laid out by Vogue. But most interesting to me is that both Vogue and the critics work with a fixed definition of poverty in the first place, and certain trajectory of the direction a life can take. The second set of ads function on precisely the opposite principle. Rather than positing an eventual horizon of desire, they deem a present life as failed, and urges us to recognise its failure. It presumes and makes me complicit in a social consensus in which we can use languages in a manner as if we are all agreed on the terms in operation. Can you see the difference in both ads? They both trouble me deeply, but they trouble me in different ways. How is this at all useful, or valuable? I think it is. I think to be able to carefully work through how and why and in what ways something arrives to me and what it disturbs is a critical thing, if we are to fashion any sort of language to deal with the violence of the present. with regards Aarti _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat Sep 6 20:14:49 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 20:14:49 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0809060001o1e15116dkb2b0502462d8bd5f@mail.gmail.com> References: <821912.19661.qm@web57211.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <6353c690809030754n46e01c85va5267b772467649f@mail.gmail.com> <13df7c120809052249j449f2d1ahdbf3c72236d07f8b@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809060001o1e15116dkb2b0502462d8bd5f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690809060744w1aab3fb8sa79fd383ca18f25a@mail.gmail.com> Dear Aarti, You are so right. We just can't ignore Shuddha's posts on this forum. He needs to be corrected from time to time, hence, we just can't remain silent. Be careful Aarti.Disinformation spread can be dangerous. Warm Regards, Aditya Raj Kaul On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 12:31 PM, Aarti Sethi wrote: > Really? Is that so? In which case every post shuddha writes, rife with > inaccuracies and and ignorance, should immediately get a response from you > setting the record straight. Instead, what we witness is a deafening > silence. Be careful and intelligent about whom you choose as your > adversaries Rashneek. And I think you are well aware of whose posts are > generally ignored on this list and it certainly isn't Shuddha. > > regards > Aarti > > > On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 11:19 AM, rashneek kher wrote: > >> All that notwithstanding, Shuddha's knowledge and understanding of either >> history or politics is of Kashmir is so poor or so full of inaccuries >> (intentional as well ignorant) that it is time we start ignoring his posts >> on Kashmir. >> >> Regards >> >> Rashneek >> >> On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 8:24 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > >wrote: >> >> > And, In a recent lecture in Jamia University, he was no different. >> > Advocating pan-Islamist movement in Kashmir. >> > >> > On 9/3/08, Lalit Ambardar wrote: >> > > >> > > It is not surprising.AG Noorani is a known sympathiser of the Kashmiri >> > pan >> > > Islamists & their cause. He ran a campaign series in support of the >> > > separatists in HT for years .The very fact that Noorani has chosen to >> > call >> > > Jammuites as 'communal forces' & 'parivar' & the accord itself as >> > > 'gunah-e-bey lazzat' & describe those who attempt to seek "azadi -bara >> -e >> > > -Islam" as 'victims' says it all. >> > > >> > > Noorani once went overboard in " don't be fence-sitters " (HT New >> > Delhi/May >> > > 8, 2007) in his appreciation of Sayad Sallahudin of HM & the >> al-Qeada >> > > affiliate LeT. In a bizarre coincidence , the day LeT chief allegedly >> > > assured some Gen. Patankar of his willingness to come to India for >> talks >> > > (...????....) as claimed by Noorani in the article , that very day >> Hafeez >> > > Sayad confessed to the reporters in Islamabad about the existence of >> > > terrorist infrastructure in Pakistan & declared his resolve to carry >> on >> > the >> > > 'jihad' to its logical conclusion (Ref. TNN/ Times of India, DEL/May8' >> > 07/ >> > > page no.13). >> > > LA >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 03:55:11 -0700> From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com >> > >> > To: >> > > shuddha at sarai.net> CC: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: >> [Reader-list] >> > > Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord> > > >> > > >> > >> http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1 >> > >> > > > >> > > > > --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> > wrote:> >> > > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Subject: Re: >> > > [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord> To: >> > > "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > Cc: "Sarai list" < >> > > reader-list at sarai.net>> Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 4:07 PM> >> > >> > > Dear all,> > The link to the Noorani article in the Greater Kashmir >> > > Newspaper in > my earlier post got inadvertently truncated. Here is >> the >> > > correct link.> > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp? > >> > > Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> > Thanks, Tilak Upadhyay for pointing >> this >> > > out.> > best,> > Shuddha> > On 03-Sep-08, at 3:16 PM, Shuddhabrata >> > Sengupta >> > > wrote: Dear all> > > Dear All,> >> > An unusual intensity of hunger >> for >> > land >> > > unites corporations, state> > agencies and shrine boards in India. >> > Captains >> > > of Industry,> > politicians and land hungry divines seem to be more >> > > interested in> > acrage than in anything else. The Mahabharata >> mentions >> > the >> > > burning of> > the Khandava forest to appease a hungry god, >> inaugurating a >> > > long> > history of burnt and erased forests and commons. It appears as >> it >> > > we> > are surrounded now by 'hungry gods'. The Khandava-daha >> continues.> >> > >> >> > > > Be it Chengara (thanks, Anivar Aravind for keeping us updated about> >> > >> > the >> > > land struggle in Kerala, where the ruling CPI(M) led Left Front> > is >> > intent >> > > on displacing indigenous communities from their land), or> > Singur >> > (where >> > > again, the ruling CPI(M) wants to gift land 'free'> to a> > gigantic >> > > corporation or Amarnath, - the issues - remain the same -> > to do >> with >> > > state mediated acquisition of land, and the sequestering> > of either >> > > cultivator's land, or a natural commons into some form of> > 'gated' >> and >> > > 'fenced' land.> >> > There has been some premature media spin around >> the >> > > 'accord' that> has> > been reached with the Shree Amarnath Yatra >> > Sangharsh >> > > Samiti based in> > Jammu. On the face of it, the accord appears to >> grant >> > a >> > > limited usage> > right to the Shree Amarnath Shrine Board. On closer >> > reading >> > > of the> > text however, it becomes evident that the terms of this >> > 'accord'> >> > > are> > actually even more invasive than was the case with the >> substance >> > of> >> > > > the original gubernatorial 'land transfer' order in May.> >> > I am >> > > enclosing below - an article by A. G. Noorani, a well known> > legal >> > > historian and practitioner of constitutional law, titled> > 'An >> Immoral >> > and >> > > Illegal Accord' which was published in the Greater> > Kashmir >> newspaper >> > > today. It is available on line at -> > >> > > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?> > >> > > Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> >> > Noorani carefully reads the terms >> of >> > the >> > > Amarnath Accord in this> > article. As I had pointed out before on >> this >> > list >> > > (in my second post> > (dated 15th August, 2008) in the thread - 'Gun >> > Salutes >> > > for August> > 15' in response to Sonia Jabbar and Aditya Raj Kaul - >> the >> > > anger in> > Kashmir has a lot to do with the arbitrary acquisition of >> > land - >> > > I> > had shown, using state government figures, how the equivalent of >> > one> > >> > > in ten fruit orchards can be said to be under the occupation of the> > >> > Armed >> > > Forces. The 'Amarnath Land Transfer' issue needs to be seen> in> > >> this >> > > context.> >> > As long as that anger (regarding the alienation of >> land) >> > is >> > > not> > addressed, the people of Kashmir will have no reason, in my> > >> > > estimation, to think of themselves as anything but under a brutal and> >> > >> > > unrelenting occupation. The current 'Amarnath Accord' in my view,> > >> > worsens >> > > the situation, and can alienate the people of Kashmir (for> > the >> reasons >> > > that Noorani underlines below) even more. As such, it can> > only be >> > viewed >> > > as yet another provocation, yet another disaster, in> > the long and >> > > undistinguished record of the Government of India's> > tragic >> blundering >> > on >> > > Kashmir. It cannot but prove to be divisive in a> > situation that >> > urgently >> > > requires the opposite.> >> > regards> >> > Shuddha> >> > >> > > ====================================================================== >> > >> > > >> > > ==> > =======================> >> > An Immoral and Illegal Accord> > >> > Greater >> > > Kashmir, September 03, 2008> > A G NOORANI> >> > Srinagar, Sep 2: The >> > accord >> > > between the Jammu and Kashmir government> > and the Shri Amarnath >> Yatra >> > > Sangharsh Samiti on 31 August is far> > worse than the government's >> order >> > > only three months earlier on 26> > May. It grants the SAYSS >> concessions >> > > beyond what the May order did.> > It is one-sided and marks an abject >> > > surrender to violence, blockade> > and to communal forces. The >> > differences >> > > between the order and accord> > are glaring. Here is a list:> >> > 1. >> The >> > > order was made pursuant to a decision on 20 May by the cabinet> > in >> > which >> > > both Jammu and Kashmir were represented. The accord> > completely >> ignores >> > > Kashmir where the land is to be given. Jammu alone> > was represented. >> A >> > > week earlier, there was a clampdown in the Valley> > and top leaders >> were >> > > arrested.> >> > 2. Even the controversial order nowhere used the word >> > > "exclusive".> > The SAYSS felt so emboldened as to demand it and >> threaten >> > to >> > > wreck> > the deal if it was not conceded. The government yielded in >> the >> > > early> > hours of 31 August. Para 6A says that the Government "shall >> set >> > > aside> > for use by Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board exclusively the land >> in> >> > > >> > > Baltal and Domail". This order unknown anywhere in the world is> > >> > cloaked >> > > under a lie by calling it "traditionally under use for the> > annual >> > yatra >> > > purpose". The traditional route for over a century is> > the Pahalgam >> > route. >> > > The Baltal route is a recent demand. It was> > regarded by the Army >> and >> > > Nitish Sengupta Report as dangerous. It is> > also unnecessary if the >> > limit >> > > of yatris set by the Report (1 lakh) is> > observed.> >> > 3. This >> > violates >> > > the citizen's fundamental right under Art. 19 (1) D> > to move freely >> > > throughout India. The demand of exclusivity was not> > made even in >> May >> > 2008 >> > > or in decades earlier. It is pure communal> > aggression using the >> yatra >> > for >> > > political demonstration not religious> > piety.> >> > 4. The duration >> of >> > use >> > > is widened to cover pre and post yatra period.> > Para 6 C first says >> > that >> > > the land will be used "for the duration of> > the yatra" including the >> > > period of preparations and winding up. But> > the very next para has >> > these >> > > sinister words: "The aforesaid land> > shall be used according to the >> > > Board's requirements from time to> > time, including for the >> following". >> > > There follow 9 measures including> > construction, setting up of the >> > sheds >> > > and shops etc. These can be> > done even beyond the yatra period "from >> > time >> > > to time" and "according> > to the Board's requirements"; may be all >> the >> > year >> > > around.> >> > 5. Para 8 of the order insisted that the land "shall >> > return" >> > > to the> > State. This is dropped in the accord. This accomplishes S.K. >> > > Sinha's> > objective— permanent use the year round.> >> > 6. Also >> dropped >> > > totally is Para 4 on payment for user.> >> > 7. Dropped too is Para 6. >> An >> > > undertaking of "foolproof measures> > against water pollution and Para >> 7 >> > on >> > > payment of fine for damage to> > the forest. There is a pious >> provision >> > in >> > > accord Para 6 C (ix) among> > the objectives of land user; namely >> > > "undertaking measures relating to> > … preservation of ecology" etc. >> > Breach >> > > entails no fine.> >> > 8. The order of 26 May was rescinded on 1 July. >> > The >> > > accord will> > require a fresh order to implement it. By itself the >> > accord >> > > has no> > legal force. Section 2(a) of the J&K Forest (Conservation) >> Act >> > > 1997> > says "the Government shall not, except on a resolution of the >> > > Council> > of Ministers based on the advice of the Advisory >> Committee"> > >> > > constituted under the Act "make any order directing that any forest> > >> > land >> > > or any portion thereof may be used for any non-forest purpose".> > The >> > > earlier phrase "Council of ministers" merely was revised by an> > >> > amendment >> > > in 2001 and the Forest Advisory Committee's advice was> > added and >> made >> > > mandatory. "Council of Ministers" is specific. It is> > different from >> > "J&K >> > > Government" whose powers vest now in the> governor> > alone. The law >> > > intentionally provides the resolution as a safeguard.> > This Council >> can >> > > come into existence only after the next elections.> > In any case the >> > Forest >> > > Advisory Committees advice on 12 July 2007> > cannot apply to this new >> > > accord which must be vetted afresh by that> > Committee. It was given >> > before >> > > the Supreme Court's final judgment in> > the T M Godavarman case on 23 >> > > November 2007 which lays down the law> > and makes important >> observations >> > on >> > > balancing development with> > protection of environment. Failure to >> > consider >> > > it vitiates the> > decision. Precisely based on misrepresentation of >> > opinion >> > > of the> > deputy CM Muzaffar Hussain Beg and advocate general Altaf >> Naik >> > > both> > of which were given in entirely difference cases.> >> > The >> > accord >> > > lacks legal efficacy as well as moral and political> > legitimacy. Any >> > order >> > > in its implementation will be void in law. It> > is a pity that the >> state >> > > should bend all rules to buy peace with> > communal forces including >> > promise >> > > to consider compensation for law-> > breakers. What of compensation to >> > the >> > > Valley for the blockade? The> > parivar in Jammu has already begun >> asking >> > > for more. The Government> > has not bought peace but trouble. It is >> > > gunah-e-bey lazzat (sin> > without any taste.)> >> > If the state can >> > thus >> > > bend its knees before the Sangh parivar on an> > issue like this, what >> > hopes >> > > of justice can Kashmiris entertain when> > it comes to restoring the >> > raped >> > > Article 370 to a status of worth and> > respect?> >> > END> >> > >> > > ====================================================================== >> > >> > > >> > > ==> > =======================> >> >> >> > >> > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open >> > discussion >> > > list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To >> > subscribe: >> > > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in >> the >> > > subject header.> > To unsubscribe: >> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: >> < >> > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > Shuddhabrata >> Sengupta> >> > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS> Raqs Media Collective> shuddha at sarai.net >> > >> > > www.sarai.net> www.raqsmediacollective.net> > > >> > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open >> > discussion >> > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: >> > send >> > > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in> the >> subject >> > > header.> To unsubscribe: >> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: < >> > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > > > >> > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open >> > discussion >> > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: >> > send >> > > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the >> subject >> > > header.> To unsubscribe: >> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: < >> > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > _________________________________________________________________ >> > > Want to explore the world? Visit MSN Travel for the best deals. >> > > http://in.msn.com/coxandkings >> > > _________________________________________ >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > > subscribe in the subject header. >> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > List archive: >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Rashneek Kher >> Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten Human Tragedy >> http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com >> http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat Sep 6 20:20:07 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 20:20:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Delhi University gets ABVP president after 8 years Message-ID: <6353c690809060750q282c8236s1bfddc3affea6567@mail.gmail.com> Delhi University gets ABVP president after 8 years 6 Sep, 2008, 1748 hrs IST, IANS NEW DELHI: Nupur Sharma of the Akhil Bharatiya Vidyarthi Parishad (ABVP) - the studentwing of the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) - was elected the president of the Delhi University Students Union (DUSU) for 2008-09 here on Saturday. Sharma, who is a student of law, got a total of 10,345 votes to defeat Sonia Sapra of the National Students Union of India (NSUI) by a margin of 1,639 votes. "Besides my own work agenda, I will work on the issues which have been taken up by my predecessor," said Sharma, a member of ABVP, said. It's after eight years that ABVP has won the post of the president in DUSU polls. The rest of the posts - that of the vice president, the secretary and the general secretary - have been won by NSUI, the students' wing of the Congress. "Since the last eight years, DU has always had a president from NSUI while the other posts were mostly taken by ABVP. This time it's the other way around," Vinod Budhiraj of the NSUI told IANS. Manohar Nagar was elected the vice president after he defeated Vasu Rukhar of ABVP by a margin of 600 votes, Amit Chaudhary became the secretary after he beat Anupriya Yadav by 300 votes and Ashish Gehlot was elected the joint secretary after defeating Mukesh Shukla by a margin of 1,200 votes. The polls, which were held Friday, saw a low voter turnout of just about 35 percent. That however didn't deter the political parties and the cub politicians of the varsity in going all out and campaigning till the last moment to woo voters or of taking out noisy victory processions on Saturday. Click here *to comment on this story.* From indersalim at gmail.com Sat Sep 6 21:18:05 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 21:18:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord In-Reply-To: <6353c690809060744w1aab3fb8sa79fd383ca18f25a@mail.gmail.com> References: <821912.19661.qm@web57211.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <6353c690809030754n46e01c85va5267b772467649f@mail.gmail.com> <13df7c120809052249j449f2d1ahdbf3c72236d07f8b@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809060001o1e15116dkb2b0502462d8bd5f@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690809060744w1aab3fb8sa79fd383ca18f25a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70809060848l9401fcdledbad1da01dfb823@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rashneek some times back Mr. Kshmendra said something similar to me, " you deserve to be ignored " and now it is you who said it to Shuddha. I beleive, anybody who had developed a dislike for a particular person may simply prese the botton ' delete' it is too easy. because to express the anger on the list is worst than even 2+2=5. now, coming back to the basic question of 'Land and Freedom in Kashmir' as seen in the present and beyond: We all know what is the the stand of an Nationlaist Indian. There is nothing new, What you are saying is no differnt from Man Mohan Singh ji, our PM. But if the religion of all Kashmiris is ' AZADI then how to convert them all into other religion which is Indian Nationalism in this case. I think it is very simple. Army and police and other reasoning has not helped us. I too would like to see a change of heart in kashmir. but, after 1990 that possiblity looks now remote. Whatever the reasons... Yes, Kashmiri pandits have a legal claim in the valley, but that can be the part of a real discussion, as and when it happens between the representatives of all the inhabitants of the disputed territory. Now disturbes my personally, is that the fact that the Hindu Right wing has politically appropriated the whole intellectual worth of Kashmiri pandits. which is not different from Jamat-i-Islami's effort to represent the whole of AZADI in kashmir. Kashmiri pandits need to write about it boldly. And if there is none, they one Advani-cum-Modi is enough to represent them. That will be unfortunate. We all know how people in kahsmir are handling this issue. Everything is hazy, but we have recently witnessed how Geelani sahib had to retract from his claim of total representation. So similarly you too need to think that every kashmniri pandit is not necessarly a VHP/BJP/BajrangDal/ShivSanik lover. Let us respect the possiblity. then that will amount to 2+2=4 with love is Just press the delete button, anything that you consider On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 8:14 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Dear Aarti, > > You are so right. We just can't ignore Shuddha's posts on this forum. He > needs to be corrected from time to time, hence, we just can't remain silent. > > > Be careful Aarti.Disinformation spread can be dangerous. > > Warm Regards, > Aditya Raj Kaul > > On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 12:31 PM, Aarti Sethi wrote: > >> Really? Is that so? In which case every post shuddha writes, rife with >> inaccuracies and and ignorance, should immediately get a response from you >> setting the record straight. Instead, what we witness is a deafening >> silence. Be careful and intelligent about whom you choose as your >> adversaries Rashneek. And I think you are well aware of whose posts are >> generally ignored on this list and it certainly isn't Shuddha. >> >> regards >> Aarti >> >> >> On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 11:19 AM, rashneek kher wrote: >> >>> All that notwithstanding, Shuddha's knowledge and understanding of either >>> history or politics is of Kashmir is so poor or so full of inaccuries >>> (intentional as well ignorant) that it is time we start ignoring his posts >>> on Kashmir. >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Rashneek >>> >>> On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 8:24 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul >> >wrote: >>> >>> > And, In a recent lecture in Jamia University, he was no different. >>> > Advocating pan-Islamist movement in Kashmir. >>> > >>> > On 9/3/08, Lalit Ambardar wrote: >>> > > >>> > > It is not surprising.AG Noorani is a known sympathiser of the Kashmiri >>> > pan >>> > > Islamists & their cause. He ran a campaign series in support of the >>> > > separatists in HT for years .The very fact that Noorani has chosen to >>> > call >>> > > Jammuites as 'communal forces' & 'parivar' & the accord itself as >>> > > 'gunah-e-bey lazzat' & describe those who attempt to seek "azadi -bara >>> -e >>> > > -Islam" as 'victims' says it all. >>> > > >>> > > Noorani once went overboard in " don't be fence-sitters " (HT New >>> > Delhi/May >>> > > 8, 2007) in his appreciation of Sayad Sallahudin of HM & the >>> al-Qeada >>> > > affiliate LeT. In a bizarre coincidence , the day LeT chief allegedly >>> > > assured some Gen. Patankar of his willingness to come to India for >>> talks >>> > > (...????....) as claimed by Noorani in the article , that very day >>> Hafeez >>> > > Sayad confessed to the reporters in Islamabad about the existence of >>> > > terrorist infrastructure in Pakistan & declared his resolve to carry >>> on >>> > the >>> > > 'jihad' to its logical conclusion (Ref. TNN/ Times of India, DEL/May8' >>> > 07/ >>> > > page no.13). >>> > > LA >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > > Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 03:55:11 -0700> From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com >>> > >>> > To: >>> > > shuddha at sarai.net> CC: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: >>> [Reader-list] >>> > > Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord> > > >>> > > >>> > >>> http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1 >>> > >>> > > > >>> > > > > --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>> > wrote:> >>> > > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Subject: Re: >>> > > [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord> To: >>> > > "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > Cc: "Sarai list" < >>> > > reader-list at sarai.net>> Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 4:07 PM> >>> > >>> > > Dear all,> > The link to the Noorani article in the Greater Kashmir >>> > > Newspaper in > my earlier post got inadvertently truncated. Here is >>> the >>> > > correct link.> > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp? > >>> > > Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> > Thanks, Tilak Upadhyay for pointing >>> this >>> > > out.> > best,> > Shuddha> > On 03-Sep-08, at 3:16 PM, Shuddhabrata >>> > Sengupta >>> > > wrote: Dear all> > > Dear All,> >> > An unusual intensity of hunger >>> for >>> > land >>> > > unites corporations, state> > agencies and shrine boards in India. >>> > Captains >>> > > of Industry,> > politicians and land hungry divines seem to be more >>> > > interested in> > acrage than in anything else. The Mahabharata >>> mentions >>> > the >>> > > burning of> > the Khandava forest to appease a hungry god, >>> inaugurating a >>> > > long> > history of burnt and erased forests and commons. It appears as >>> it >>> > > we> > are surrounded now by 'hungry gods'. The Khandava-daha >>> continues.> >>> > >> >>> > > > Be it Chengara (thanks, Anivar Aravind for keeping us updated about> >>> > >>> > the >>> > > land struggle in Kerala, where the ruling CPI(M) led Left Front> > is >>> > intent >>> > > on displacing indigenous communities from their land), or> > Singur >>> > (where >>> > > again, the ruling CPI(M) wants to gift land 'free'> to a> > gigantic >>> > > corporation or Amarnath, - the issues - remain the same -> > to do >>> with >>> > > state mediated acquisition of land, and the sequestering> > of either >>> > > cultivator's land, or a natural commons into some form of> > 'gated' >>> and >>> > > 'fenced' land.> >> > There has been some premature media spin around >>> the >>> > > 'accord' that> has> > been reached with the Shree Amarnath Yatra >>> > Sangharsh >>> > > Samiti based in> > Jammu. On the face of it, the accord appears to >>> grant >>> > a >>> > > limited usage> > right to the Shree Amarnath Shrine Board. On closer >>> > reading >>> > > of the> > text however, it becomes evident that the terms of this >>> > 'accord'> >>> > > are> > actually even more invasive than was the case with the >>> substance >>> > of> >>> > > > the original gubernatorial 'land transfer' order in May.> >> > I am >>> > > enclosing below - an article by A. G. Noorani, a well known> > legal >>> > > historian and practitioner of constitutional law, titled> > 'An >>> Immoral >>> > and >>> > > Illegal Accord' which was published in the Greater> > Kashmir >>> newspaper >>> > > today. It is available on line at -> > >>> > > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?> > >>> > > Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> >> > Noorani carefully reads the terms >>> of >>> > the >>> > > Amarnath Accord in this> > article. As I had pointed out before on >>> this >>> > list >>> > > (in my second post> > (dated 15th August, 2008) in the thread - 'Gun >>> > Salutes >>> > > for August> > 15' in response to Sonia Jabbar and Aditya Raj Kaul - >>> the >>> > > anger in> > Kashmir has a lot to do with the arbitrary acquisition of >>> > land - >>> > > I> > had shown, using state government figures, how the equivalent of >>> > one> > >>> > > in ten fruit orchards can be said to be under the occupation of the> > >>> > Armed >>> > > Forces. The 'Amarnath Land Transfer' issue needs to be seen> in> > >>> this >>> > > context.> >> > As long as that anger (regarding the alienation of >>> land) >>> > is >>> > > not> > addressed, the people of Kashmir will have no reason, in my> > >>> > > estimation, to think of themselves as anything but under a brutal and> >>> > >>> > > unrelenting occupation. The current 'Amarnath Accord' in my view,> > >>> > worsens >>> > > the situation, and can alienate the people of Kashmir (for> > the >>> reasons >>> > > that Noorani underlines below) even more. As such, it can> > only be >>> > viewed >>> > > as yet another provocation, yet another disaster, in> > the long and >>> > > undistinguished record of the Government of India's> > tragic >>> blundering >>> > on >>> > > Kashmir. It cannot but prove to be divisive in a> > situation that >>> > urgently >>> > > requires the opposite.> >> > regards> >> > Shuddha> >> > >>> > > ====================================================================== >>> > >>> > > >>> > > ==> > =======================> >> > An Immoral and Illegal Accord> > >>> > Greater >>> > > Kashmir, September 03, 2008> > A G NOORANI> >> > Srinagar, Sep 2: The >>> > accord >>> > > between the Jammu and Kashmir government> > and the Shri Amarnath >>> Yatra >>> > > Sangharsh Samiti on 31 August is far> > worse than the government's >>> order >>> > > only three months earlier on 26> > May. It grants the SAYSS >>> concessions >>> > > beyond what the May order did.> > It is one-sided and marks an abject >>> > > surrender to violence, blockade> > and to communal forces. The >>> > differences >>> > > between the order and accord> > are glaring. Here is a list:> >> > 1. >>> The >>> > > order was made pursuant to a decision on 20 May by the cabinet> > in >>> > which >>> > > both Jammu and Kashmir were represented. The accord> > completely >>> ignores >>> > > Kashmir where the land is to be given. Jammu alone> > was represented. >>> A >>> > > week earlier, there was a clampdown in the Valley> > and top leaders >>> were >>> > > arrested.> >> > 2. Even the controversial order nowhere used the word >>> > > "exclusive".> > The SAYSS felt so emboldened as to demand it and >>> threaten >>> > to >>> > > wreck> > the deal if it was not conceded. The government yielded in >>> the >>> > > early> > hours of 31 August. Para 6A says that the Government "shall >>> set >>> > > aside> > for use by Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board exclusively the land >>> in> >>> > > >>> > > Baltal and Domail". This order unknown anywhere in the world is> > >>> > cloaked >>> > > under a lie by calling it "traditionally under use for the> > annual >>> > yatra >>> > > purpose". The traditional route for over a century is> > the Pahalgam >>> > route. >>> > > The Baltal route is a recent demand. It was> > regarded by the Army >>> and >>> > > Nitish Sengupta Report as dangerous. It is> > also unnecessary if the >>> > limit >>> > > of yatris set by the Report (1 lakh) is> > observed.> >> > 3. This >>> > violates >>> > > the citizen's fundamental right under Art. 19 (1) D> > to move freely >>> > > throughout India. The demand of exclusivity was not> > made even in >>> May >>> > 2008 >>> > > or in decades earlier. It is pure communal> > aggression using the >>> yatra >>> > for >>> > > political demonstration not religious> > piety.> >> > 4. The duration >>> of >>> > use >>> > > is widened to cover pre and post yatra period.> > Para 6 C first says >>> > that >>> > > the land will be used "for the duration of> > the yatra" including the >>> > > period of preparations and winding up. But> > the very next para has >>> > these >>> > > sinister words: "The aforesaid land> > shall be used according to the >>> > > Board's requirements from time to> > time, including for the >>> following". >>> > > There follow 9 measures including> > construction, setting up of the >>> > sheds >>> > > and shops etc. These can be> > done even beyond the yatra period "from >>> > time >>> > > to time" and "according> > to the Board's requirements"; may be all >>> the >>> > year >>> > > around.> >> > 5. Para 8 of the order insisted that the land "shall >>> > return" >>> > > to the> > State. This is dropped in the accord. This accomplishes S.K. >>> > > Sinha's> > objective— permanent use the year round.> >> > 6. Also >>> dropped >>> > > totally is Para 4 on payment for user.> >> > 7. Dropped too is Para 6. >>> An >>> > > undertaking of "foolproof measures> > against water pollution and Para >>> 7 >>> > on >>> > > payment of fine for damage to> > the forest. There is a pious >>> provision >>> > in >>> > > accord Para 6 C (ix) among> > the objectives of land user; namely >>> > > "undertaking measures relating to> > … preservation of ecology" etc. >>> > Breach >>> > > entails no fine.> >> > 8. The order of 26 May was rescinded on 1 July. >>> > The >>> > > accord will> > require a fresh order to implement it. By itself the >>> > accord >>> > > has no> > legal force. Section 2(a) of the J&K Forest (Conservation) >>> Act >>> > > 1997> > says "the Government shall not, except on a resolution of the >>> > > Council> > of Ministers based on the advice of the Advisory >>> Committee"> > >>> > > constituted under the Act "make any order directing that any forest> > >>> > land >>> > > or any portion thereof may be used for any non-forest purpose".> > The >>> > > earlier phrase "Council of ministers" merely was revised by an> > >>> > amendment >>> > > in 2001 and the Forest Advisory Committee's advice was> > added and >>> made >>> > > mandatory. "Council of Ministers" is specific. It is> > different from >>> > "J&K >>> > > Government" whose powers vest now in the> governor> > alone. The law >>> > > intentionally provides the resolution as a safeguard.> > This Council >>> can >>> > > come into existence only after the next elections.> > In any case the >>> > Forest >>> > > Advisory Committees advice on 12 July 2007> > cannot apply to this new >>> > > accord which must be vetted afresh by that> > Committee. It was given >>> > before >>> > > the Supreme Court's final judgment in> > the T M Godavarman case on 23 >>> > > November 2007 which lays down the law> > and makes important >>> observations >>> > on >>> > > balancing development with> > protection of environment. Failure to >>> > consider >>> > > it vitiates the> > decision. Precisely based on misrepresentation of >>> > opinion >>> > > of the> > deputy CM Muzaffar Hussain Beg and advocate general Altaf >>> Naik >>> > > both> > of which were given in entirely difference cases.> >> > The >>> > accord >>> > > lacks legal efficacy as well as moral and political> > legitimacy. Any >>> > order >>> > > in its implementation will be void in law. It> > is a pity that the >>> state >>> > > should bend all rules to buy peace with> > communal forces including >>> > promise >>> > > to consider compensation for law-> > breakers. What of compensation to >>> > the >>> > > Valley for the blockade? The> > parivar in Jammu has already begun >>> asking >>> > > for more. The Government> > has not bought peace but trouble. It is >>> > > gunah-e-bey lazzat (sin> > without any taste.)> >> > If the state can >>> > thus >>> > > bend its knees before the Sangh parivar on an> > issue like this, what >>> > hopes >>> > > of justice can Kashmiris entertain when> > it comes to restoring the >>> > raped >>> > > Article 370 to a status of worth and> > respect?> >> > END> >> > >>> > > ====================================================================== >>> > >>> > > >>> > > ==> > =======================> >> >> >> > >>> > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open >>> > discussion >>> > > list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To >>> > subscribe: >>> > > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in >>> the >>> > > subject header.> > To unsubscribe: >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: >>> < >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > Shuddhabrata >>> Sengupta> >>> > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS> Raqs Media Collective> shuddha at sarai.net >>> > >>> > > www.sarai.net> www.raqsmediacollective.net> > > >>> > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open >>> > discussion >>> > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: >>> > send >>> > > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in> the >>> subject >>> > > header.> To unsubscribe: >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: < >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > > > >>> > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open >>> > discussion >>> > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: >>> > send >>> > > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the >>> subject >>> > > header.> To unsubscribe: >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: < >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> > > _________________________________________________________________ >>> > > Want to explore the world? Visit MSN Travel for the best deals. >>> > > http://in.msn.com/coxandkings >>> > > _________________________________________ >>> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> > > Critiques & Collaborations >>> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> > > subscribe in the subject header. >>> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> > > List archive: >>> > _________________________________________ >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Rashneek Kher >>> Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten Human Tragedy >>> http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com >>> http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From indersalim at gmail.com Sat Sep 6 21:50:56 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 21:50:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions In-Reply-To: <236372.8677.qm@web51406.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <138223.70651.qm@web31809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <236372.8677.qm@web51406.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70809060920y19776e93h255b15362bc1f835@mail.gmail.com> Dear Yousuf this is too sweeping a statement by a well read person like you. this also gives us a clue - how often well read people quickly throw reasoning to dust bins and join hands with those who boldy declare 'fundamentalsim' as their guiding light on the path of spirituality. if we condemn artists for having monoply on 'liberalism' then how to denounce entire majority of religous world who have mononly on 'hurt' ? Our sufi bhakti traditions were much liberal in their ' ways of living' than what you consider as offensive. this also teachs me that we are basically too small to speak anything truely about these overwhelming issues through these short cut discussions, Here, i think of paintings, poetry, music dance ( al erotic, sacred and profane ) and all the eccentric moods of our society, even if ' well read people' consider it just an entertainment for artists themselves, and couple of few others in the world. We are in a serious trouble. or only I ( artist ) feel it ? love is On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 7:10 PM, Yousuf wrote: > Dear Ishwar > I can't decide whether I agree with you or not, but a friend of mine (to whom I was telling about this discussion) echoes your point. According to him, if the religious people have a monopoly on "hurt", the artists have a monopoly on "taking liberties". So these two "rights" should balance out each other, and no one should complain... > > Yousuf > > > --- On Sat, 9/6/08, Ishwar wrote: > From: Ishwar > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions > To: "Aarti Sethi" , "inder salim" , "Sarai Reader-list" > Date: Saturday, September 6, 2008, 6:07 PM > > Kudos to a well-written reply, andofcourse, to TeadBeeDi too :) > > While we're at it, how about a little bit of thought on this too? > > While questioning religious communities' monopoly on "hurt", one > must also take into consideration frameworks. > Religious > frameworks by their very nature have the concept of blasphemy, to > various degrees, be it 'kadavul kutram' (blasphemous talk against the > divine) from where I come, to blasphemy laws, etc.wherein the concept > of individual liberty is weighed down in front of a higher divine. > > As > liberals(or feminists or apathetists, or any ists), we have > chosen/adopted/devised our own framework which channelises such hurt to > productive means.The world has other frameworks too. Taking this > concept of channelising hurt to a different religious framework and > expecting it to be adopted/respected is as naive as, say, a scientist > expecting his/her ideas on non-existence of god, or proof of evolution > to be accepted by the religious community. > > That religious frameworks can change is a different discussion altogether. > > > Ishwar > > > Just another resurrected Neozoic Archosaur comics. > http://www.flickr.com/photos/mojosaurus/sets/72157600257724083/ > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Aarti Sethi > To: inder salim > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Thursday, September 4, 2008 2:39:27 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions > > A few thoughts on an interesting discussion. > > One term I think that has remained unexamined in this discussion is > "hurt" > or "sentiment". By this I mean not an assessment of whether that hurt > is > justified, valid etc, who is to decide whether this offends or not, whether > this is offensive or not, the relative self-sufficiency of value systems and > speaking across them. But the inherent value of hurt as a positive force in > itself. Let me try and explain what I mean. > > Why is "hurt sentiment" a bad thing in itself? Can having one's > sentiments > hurt, sometimes quite badly, not be a positive force? Might it not impell me > to re-think, or think, about my sentiments in a manner that is creative? > Maybe those sentiments are better discarded. Maybe my outrage alerts me to a > violence I have been commiting without realising it. Maybe if more people's > sentiments were outraged a little more forcefully, then we would be living > in a far more democratic and tolerant world. > > Further, I do not see why only religious communities have a monopoly on > sentiments which can then be hurt. As a feminist, my sentiments are > assaulted on a routine and regular basis. As someone who believes in a > version of social justice and equality, once articulated by, but not only > by, Marx for instance, my feelings are continually trampled over. As someone > who believes in a secular vision, the discussions on this list offend me > everyday. However i do not see this being taken very seriously. And it > needn't, that is the point. It is up to me to alchemize this outrage, hurt, > sadness in a manner that enables me to live and act in the world. > > This is actually how we live our lives generally. My mother, or father, or > lover, or friend might say something that hurts me terribly. Not always is > this clarified, discussed, put in its right perspective. All our lives are > all littered with silent archives of hurts we have never expressed. There is > no heroic moment in which resolution is sought for hurts. And no one can do > this for anyone... > > The recent Vogue advertisements doing the rounds, around which there has > been some discussion on this list, have hurt the sentiments of many people. > A few years ago another set of advertisements for brand equity in which two > tribal women are shown discussing the tans they have got in Monte Carlo to > an accompanying snide and contemptous copy which said something about how > advertisers need to accurately reach their consumers, also outraged many of > us. Having thought about this, I realised that though both the Vogue ads and > the brand equity ads trouble me, they do so in different ways. > > The Vogue ads can be read in one of many ways - that it posits a horizon of > desire that is unachievable for the people it uses for the ad. In some sense > then the frisson of the ad derives from the discrepancy in what is desired > and what is possible. Further it assumes that their horizon of desire will > follow the trajectory laid out by Vogue. But most interesting to me is that > both Vogue and the critics work with a fixed definition of poverty in the > first place, and certain trajectory of the direction a life can take. > > The second set of ads function on precisely the opposite principle. Rather > than positing an eventual horizon of desire, they deem a present life as > failed, and urges us to recognise its failure. It presumes and makes me > complicit in a social consensus in which we can use languages in a manner as > if we are all agreed on the terms in operation. > > Can you see the difference in both ads? They both trouble me deeply, but > they trouble me in different ways. How is this at all useful, or valuable? I > think it is. I think to be able to carefully work through how and why and in > what ways something arrives to me and what it disturbs is a critical thing, > if we are to fashion any sort of language to deal with the violence of the > present. > > with regards > Aarti > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sun Sep 7 00:10:47 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 00:10:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord In-Reply-To: <47e122a70809060848l9401fcdledbad1da01dfb823@mail.gmail.com> References: <821912.19661.qm@web57211.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <6353c690809030754n46e01c85va5267b772467649f@mail.gmail.com> <13df7c120809052249j449f2d1ahdbf3c72236d07f8b@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809060001o1e15116dkb2b0502462d8bd5f@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690809060744w1aab3fb8sa79fd383ca18f25a@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70809060848l9401fcdledbad1da01dfb823@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70809061140n3f24f95cpf5ff5953a49217c@mail.gmail.com> Dear Inder Ji, Without sounding rude, i must tell you that there is something very wrong with yuour identity which you are unable to identify with. What does make you to call Geelani a "sahbi: time to time. He is a criminal who according to me deserves a very harsh punishment. You also have never sent a rejoinder to a so called journalist like Murtaza, who till date has not revealed why he is called a "paid" agent of a Brussel organization ? Regarding Shuddhaa , He is one of those kinds who would teach me the basics of Biscoe School ? LoL...and I was a 3rd generation in that school. Shuddha is just few years too old to debate with my 4 year old son about Kashmir. There is no doubt that like you Shuddha is like a "Kosi" river ....just gone haywire ...only to destroy a peaceful mind. Pawan On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 9:18 PM, inder salim wrote: > Dear Rashneek > > some times back Mr. Kshmendra said something similar to me, > > " you deserve to be ignored " > > and now it is you who said it to Shuddha. > > I beleive, anybody who had developed a dislike for a particular person > may simply prese the botton ' delete' > > it is too easy. > because to express the anger on the list is worst than even 2+2=5. > > now, coming back to the basic question of 'Land and Freedom in > Kashmir' as seen in the present and beyond: > > We all know what is the the stand of an Nationlaist Indian. There is > nothing new, What you are saying is no differnt from Man Mohan Singh > ji, our PM. > > But if the religion of all Kashmiris is ' AZADI then how to convert > them all into other religion which is Indian Nationalism in this case. > > I think it is very simple. Army and police and other reasoning has > not helped us. > I too would like to see a change of heart in kashmir. but, after 1990 > that possiblity looks now remote. Whatever the reasons... > > Yes, Kashmiri pandits have a legal claim in the valley, but that can > be the part of a real discussion, as and when it happens between the > representatives of all the inhabitants of the disputed territory. > > Now disturbes my personally, is that the fact that the Hindu Right > wing has politically appropriated the whole intellectual worth of > Kashmiri pandits. which is not different from Jamat-i-Islami's effort > to represent the whole of AZADI in kashmir. Kashmiri pandits need to > write about it boldly. And if there is none, they one Advani-cum-Modi > is enough to represent them. That will be unfortunate. > > We all know how people in kahsmir are handling this issue. Everything > is hazy, but we have recently witnessed how Geelani sahib had to > retract from his claim of total representation. So similarly you too > need to think that every kashmniri pandit is not necessarly a > VHP/BJP/BajrangDal/ShivSanik lover. Let us respect the possiblity. > > then that will amount to 2+2=4 > > with love > is > > > > > Just press the delete button, anything that you consider > On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 8:14 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: > > Dear Aarti, > > > > You are so right. We just can't ignore Shuddha's posts on this forum. He > > needs to be corrected from time to time, hence, we just can't remain > silent. > > > > > > Be careful Aarti.Disinformation spread can be dangerous. > > > > Warm Regards, > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 12:31 PM, Aarti Sethi > wrote: > > > >> Really? Is that so? In which case every post shuddha writes, rife with > >> inaccuracies and and ignorance, should immediately get a response from > you > >> setting the record straight. Instead, what we witness is a deafening > >> silence. Be careful and intelligent about whom you choose as your > >> adversaries Rashneek. And I think you are well aware of whose posts are > >> generally ignored on this list and it certainly isn't Shuddha. > >> > >> regards > >> Aarti > >> > >> > >> On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 11:19 AM, rashneek kher > wrote: > >> > >>> All that notwithstanding, Shuddha's knowledge and understanding of > either > >>> history or politics is of Kashmir is so poor or so full of inaccuries > >>> (intentional as well ignorant) that it is time we start ignoring his > posts > >>> on Kashmir. > >>> > >>> Regards > >>> > >>> Rashneek > >>> > >>> On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 8:24 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul < > kauladityaraj at gmail.com > >>> >wrote: > >>> > >>> > And, In a recent lecture in Jamia University, he was no different. > >>> > Advocating pan-Islamist movement in Kashmir. > >>> > > >>> > On 9/3/08, Lalit Ambardar wrote: > >>> > > > >>> > > It is not surprising.AG Noorani is a known sympathiser of the > Kashmiri > >>> > pan > >>> > > Islamists & their cause. He ran a campaign series in support of > the > >>> > > separatists in HT for years .The very fact that Noorani has chosen > to > >>> > call > >>> > > Jammuites as 'communal forces' & 'parivar' & the accord itself as > >>> > > 'gunah-e-bey lazzat' & describe those who attempt to seek "azadi > -bara > >>> -e > >>> > > -Islam" as 'victims' says it all. > >>> > > > >>> > > Noorani once went overboard in " don't be fence-sitters " (HT New > >>> > Delhi/May > >>> > > 8, 2007) in his appreciation of Sayad Sallahudin of HM & the > >>> al-Qeada > >>> > > affiliate LeT. In a bizarre coincidence , the day LeT chief > allegedly > >>> > > assured some Gen. Patankar of his willingness to come to India for > >>> talks > >>> > > (...????....) as claimed by Noorani in the article , that very day > >>> Hafeez > >>> > > Sayad confessed to the reporters in Islamabad about the existence > of > >>> > > terrorist infrastructure in Pakistan & declared his resolve to > carry > >>> on > >>> > the > >>> > > 'jihad' to its logical conclusion (Ref. TNN/ Times of India, > DEL/May8' > >>> > 07/ > >>> > > page no.13). > >>> > > LA > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 03:55:11 -0700> From: > kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > >>> > > >>> > To: > >>> > > shuddha at sarai.net> CC: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: > >>> [Reader-list] > >>> > > Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > >>> > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1 > >>> > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > >>> > wrote:> > >>> > > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Subject: Re: > >>> > > [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord> > To: > >>> > > "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > Cc: "Sarai list" < > >>> > > reader-list at sarai.net>> Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 4:07 > PM> > >>> > > >>> > > Dear all,> > The link to the Noorani article in the Greater Kashmir > >>> > > Newspaper in > my earlier post got inadvertently truncated. Here is > >>> the > >>> > > correct link.> > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp? > > >>> > > Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> > Thanks, Tilak Upadhyay for > pointing > >>> this > >>> > > out.> > best,> > Shuddha> > On 03-Sep-08, at 3:16 PM, Shuddhabrata > >>> > Sengupta > >>> > > wrote: Dear all> > > Dear All,> >> > An unusual intensity of hunger > >>> for > >>> > land > >>> > > unites corporations, state> > agencies and shrine boards in India. > >>> > Captains > >>> > > of Industry,> > politicians and land hungry divines seem to be more > >>> > > interested in> > acrage than in anything else. The Mahabharata > >>> mentions > >>> > the > >>> > > burning of> > the Khandava forest to appease a hungry god, > >>> inaugurating a > >>> > > long> > history of burnt and erased forests and commons. It appears > as > >>> it > >>> > > we> > are surrounded now by 'hungry gods'. The Khandava-daha > >>> continues.> > >>> > >> > >>> > > > Be it Chengara (thanks, Anivar Aravind for keeping us updated > about> > >>> > > >>> > the > >>> > > land struggle in Kerala, where the ruling CPI(M) led Left Front> > > is > >>> > intent > >>> > > on displacing indigenous communities from their land), or> > Singur > >>> > (where > >>> > > again, the ruling CPI(M) wants to gift land 'free'> to a> > > gigantic > >>> > > corporation or Amarnath, - the issues - remain the same -> > to do > >>> with > >>> > > state mediated acquisition of land, and the sequestering> > of > either > >>> > > cultivator's land, or a natural commons into some form of> > > 'gated' > >>> and > >>> > > 'fenced' land.> >> > There has been some premature media spin > around > >>> the > >>> > > 'accord' that> has> > been reached with the Shree Amarnath Yatra > >>> > Sangharsh > >>> > > Samiti based in> > Jammu. On the face of it, the accord appears to > >>> grant > >>> > a > >>> > > limited usage> > right to the Shree Amarnath Shrine Board. On > closer > >>> > reading > >>> > > of the> > text however, it becomes evident that the terms of this > >>> > 'accord'> > >>> > > are> > actually even more invasive than was the case with the > >>> substance > >>> > of> > >>> > > > the original gubernatorial 'land transfer' order in May.> >> > I > am > >>> > > enclosing below - an article by A. G. Noorani, a well known> > > legal > >>> > > historian and practitioner of constitutional law, titled> > 'An > >>> Immoral > >>> > and > >>> > > Illegal Accord' which was published in the Greater> > Kashmir > >>> newspaper > >>> > > today. It is available on line at -> > > >>> > > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?> > > >>> > > Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> >> > Noorani carefully reads the > terms > >>> of > >>> > the > >>> > > Amarnath Accord in this> > article. As I had pointed out before on > >>> this > >>> > list > >>> > > (in my second post> > (dated 15th August, 2008) in the thread - > 'Gun > >>> > Salutes > >>> > > for August> > 15' in response to Sonia Jabbar and Aditya Raj Kaul - > >>> the > >>> > > anger in> > Kashmir has a lot to do with the arbitrary acquisition > of > >>> > land - > >>> > > I> > had shown, using state government figures, how the equivalent > of > >>> > one> > > >>> > > in ten fruit orchards can be said to be under the occupation of > the> > > >>> > Armed > >>> > > Forces. The 'Amarnath Land Transfer' issue needs to be seen> in> > > >>> this > >>> > > context.> >> > As long as that anger (regarding the alienation of > >>> land) > >>> > is > >>> > > not> > addressed, the people of Kashmir will have no reason, in my> > > > >>> > > estimation, to think of themselves as anything but under a brutal > and> > >>> > > >>> > > unrelenting occupation. The current 'Amarnath Accord' in my view,> > > > >>> > worsens > >>> > > the situation, and can alienate the people of Kashmir (for> > the > >>> reasons > >>> > > that Noorani underlines below) even more. As such, it can> > only > be > >>> > viewed > >>> > > as yet another provocation, yet another disaster, in> > the long > and > >>> > > undistinguished record of the Government of India's> > tragic > >>> blundering > >>> > on > >>> > > Kashmir. It cannot but prove to be divisive in a> > situation that > >>> > urgently > >>> > > requires the opposite.> >> > regards> >> > Shuddha> >> > > >>> > > > ====================================================================== > >>> > > >>> > > > >>> > > ==> > =======================> >> > An Immoral and Illegal Accord> > > > >>> > Greater > >>> > > Kashmir, September 03, 2008> > A G NOORANI> >> > Srinagar, Sep 2: > The > >>> > accord > >>> > > between the Jammu and Kashmir government> > and the Shri Amarnath > >>> Yatra > >>> > > Sangharsh Samiti on 31 August is far> > worse than the government's > >>> order > >>> > > only three months earlier on 26> > May. It grants the SAYSS > >>> concessions > >>> > > beyond what the May order did.> > It is one-sided and marks an > abject > >>> > > surrender to violence, blockade> > and to communal forces. The > >>> > differences > >>> > > between the order and accord> > are glaring. Here is a list:> >> > > 1. > >>> The > >>> > > order was made pursuant to a decision on 20 May by the cabinet> > > in > >>> > which > >>> > > both Jammu and Kashmir were represented. The accord> > completely > >>> ignores > >>> > > Kashmir where the land is to be given. Jammu alone> > was > represented. > >>> A > >>> > > week earlier, there was a clampdown in the Valley> > and top > leaders > >>> were > >>> > > arrested.> >> > 2. Even the controversial order nowhere used the > word > >>> > > "exclusive".> > The SAYSS felt so emboldened as to demand it and > >>> threaten > >>> > to > >>> > > wreck> > the deal if it was not conceded. The government yielded in > >>> the > >>> > > early> > hours of 31 August. Para 6A says that the Government > "shall > >>> set > >>> > > aside> > for use by Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board exclusively the > land > >>> in> > >>> > > > >>> > > Baltal and Domail". This order unknown anywhere in the world is> > > >>> > cloaked > >>> > > under a lie by calling it "traditionally under use for the> > > annual > >>> > yatra > >>> > > purpose". The traditional route for over a century is> > the > Pahalgam > >>> > route. > >>> > > The Baltal route is a recent demand. It was> > regarded by the Army > >>> and > >>> > > Nitish Sengupta Report as dangerous. It is> > also unnecessary if > the > >>> > limit > >>> > > of yatris set by the Report (1 lakh) is> > observed.> >> > 3. This > >>> > violates > >>> > > the citizen's fundamental right under Art. 19 (1) D> > to move > freely > >>> > > throughout India. The demand of exclusivity was not> > made even in > >>> May > >>> > 2008 > >>> > > or in decades earlier. It is pure communal> > aggression using the > >>> yatra > >>> > for > >>> > > political demonstration not religious> > piety.> >> > 4. The > duration > >>> of > >>> > use > >>> > > is widened to cover pre and post yatra period.> > Para 6 C first > says > >>> > that > >>> > > the land will be used "for the duration of> > the yatra" including > the > >>> > > period of preparations and winding up. But> > the very next para > has > >>> > these > >>> > > sinister words: "The aforesaid land> > shall be used according to > the > >>> > > Board's requirements from time to> > time, including for the > >>> following". > >>> > > There follow 9 measures including> > construction, setting up of > the > >>> > sheds > >>> > > and shops etc. These can be> > done even beyond the yatra period > "from > >>> > time > >>> > > to time" and "according> > to the Board's requirements"; may be all > >>> the > >>> > year > >>> > > around.> >> > 5. Para 8 of the order insisted that the land "shall > >>> > return" > >>> > > to the> > State. This is dropped in the accord. This accomplishes > S.K. > >>> > > Sinha's> > objective— permanent use the year round.> >> > 6. Also > >>> dropped > >>> > > totally is Para 4 on payment for user.> >> > 7. Dropped too is Para > 6. > >>> An > >>> > > undertaking of "foolproof measures> > against water pollution and > Para > >>> 7 > >>> > on > >>> > > payment of fine for damage to> > the forest. There is a pious > >>> provision > >>> > in > >>> > > accord Para 6 C (ix) among> > the objectives of land user; namely > >>> > > "undertaking measures relating to> > … preservation of ecology" > etc. > >>> > Breach > >>> > > entails no fine.> >> > 8. The order of 26 May was rescinded on 1 > July. > >>> > The > >>> > > accord will> > require a fresh order to implement it. By itself the > >>> > accord > >>> > > has no> > legal force. Section 2(a) of the J&K Forest > (Conservation) > >>> Act > >>> > > 1997> > says "the Government shall not, except on a resolution of > the > >>> > > Council> > of Ministers based on the advice of the Advisory > >>> Committee"> > > >>> > > constituted under the Act "make any order directing that any > forest> > > >>> > land > >>> > > or any portion thereof may be used for any non-forest purpose".> > > The > >>> > > earlier phrase "Council of ministers" merely was revised by an> > > >>> > amendment > >>> > > in 2001 and the Forest Advisory Committee's advice was> > added and > >>> made > >>> > > mandatory. "Council of Ministers" is specific. It is> > different > from > >>> > "J&K > >>> > > Government" whose powers vest now in the> governor> > alone. The > law > >>> > > intentionally provides the resolution as a safeguard.> > This > Council > >>> can > >>> > > come into existence only after the next elections.> > In any case > the > >>> > Forest > >>> > > Advisory Committees advice on 12 July 2007> > cannot apply to this > new > >>> > > accord which must be vetted afresh by that> > Committee. It was > given > >>> > before > >>> > > the Supreme Court's final judgment in> > the T M Godavarman case on > 23 > >>> > > November 2007 which lays down the law> > and makes important > >>> observations > >>> > on > >>> > > balancing development with> > protection of environment. Failure to > >>> > consider > >>> > > it vitiates the> > decision. Precisely based on misrepresentation > of > >>> > opinion > >>> > > of the> > deputy CM Muzaffar Hussain Beg and advocate general Altaf > >>> Naik > >>> > > both> > of which were given in entirely difference cases.> >> > The > >>> > accord > >>> > > lacks legal efficacy as well as moral and political> > legitimacy. > Any > >>> > order > >>> > > in its implementation will be void in law. It> > is a pity that the > >>> state > >>> > > should bend all rules to buy peace with> > communal forces > including > >>> > promise > >>> > > to consider compensation for law-> > breakers. What of compensation > to > >>> > the > >>> > > Valley for the blockade? The> > parivar in Jammu has already begun > >>> asking > >>> > > for more. The Government> > has not bought peace but trouble. It is > >>> > > gunah-e-bey lazzat (sin> > without any taste.)> >> > If the state > can > >>> > thus > >>> > > bend its knees before the Sangh parivar on an> > issue like this, > what > >>> > hopes > >>> > > of justice can Kashmiris entertain when> > it comes to restoring > the > >>> > raped > >>> > > Article 370 to a status of worth and> > respect?> >> > END> >> > > >>> > > > ====================================================================== > >>> > > >>> > > > >>> > > ==> > =======================> >> >> >> > > >>> > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open > >>> > discussion > >>> > > list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To > >>> > subscribe: > >>> > > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe > in > >>> the > >>> > > subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List > archive: > >>> < > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > Shuddhabrata > >>> Sengupta> > >>> > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS> Raqs Media Collective> > shuddha at sarai.net > >>> > > >>> > > www.sarai.net> www.raqsmediacollective.net> > > > >>> > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open > >>> > discussion > >>> > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To > subscribe: > >>> > send > >>> > > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in> the > >>> subject > >>> > > header.> To unsubscribe: > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List > archive: < > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > > > > >>> > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open > >>> > discussion > >>> > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To > subscribe: > >>> > send > >>> > > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > >>> subject > >>> > > header.> To unsubscribe: > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List > archive: < > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>> > > _________________________________________________________________ > >>> > > Want to explore the world? Visit MSN Travel for the best deals. > >>> > > http://in.msn.com/coxandkings > >>> > > _________________________________________ > >>> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> > > Critiques & Collaborations > >>> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>> > > subscribe in the subject header. > >>> > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> > > List archive: > >>> > _________________________________________ > >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> > Critiques & Collaborations > >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>> > subscribe in the subject header. > >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Rashneek Kher > >>> Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten Human Tragedy > >>> http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com > >>> http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com > >>> _________________________________________ > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>> > >> > >> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Sun Sep 7 00:42:30 2008 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 00:42:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Trade unions strengthen blockade at Chengara In-Reply-To: <35f96d470809061202l7217cae7n83ab014a4d75d806@mail.gmail.com> References: <35f96d470809061202l7217cae7n83ab014a4d75d806@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <35f96d470809061212q27469a52geffc03e81c958de7@mail.gmail.com> Trade unions strengthen blockade at Chengara The Hindu Radhakrishnan Kuttoor http://www.thehindu.com/2008/09/05/stories/2008090552460400.htm CHENGARA (Pathanamthitta dist.): The year-long agitation for land at Chengara under the aegis of the Sadhu Jana Vimochana Samyukta Vedi (SJVSV) is set to enter a new phase with plantation workers deciding to strengthen their month-long road blockade by extending it to round the clock from Wednesday. A group of SJVSV activists allegedly made an attempt to break the human barrier formed by nearly 50 women owing allegiance to different trade unions on the road leading to the Kumbazha Estate on Wednesday morning. Trade union leaders Malayalappuzha Mohan (CITU) and Jyotishkumar Malayalappuzha (INTUC) alleged that the SJVSV activists were armed and had threatened the women workers taking part in the blockade. The Vedi activists retreated to the estate when the police personnel on duty and other plantation workers rushed to the spot. Meanwhile, SJVSV president Laha Gopalan and secretary Seleena Prakkanam clarified that the Vedi workers wanted to go out of the estate to collect food. Charges raised "The trade union leaders' allegation that the Vedi workers were armed was part of a dubious design to label the landless people as extremist elements," alleged Vijayan Mothiravayal, SJVSV convener at Chengara. The SJVSV leaders said they had started rubber tapping a few months ago to earn their livelihood after the government failed to redress their grievances. Subversive tactics "Instead of redressing our grievances and allotting us land, the government and the ruling CPI(M) are trying to sabotage the peaceful stir through subversive tactics," alleged A.K. Bava, a 64-year-old man from Vaikom who has been staying in the occupied area for the past six months. As per the Vedi's claims, as many as 24,000 people belonging to 7,282 families are occupying about 14,000 acres of land at the Kumbazha Estate. The number of make-shift huts pitched at the estate will be around 7,800, says Ms. Seleena. "The road blockade launched by the trade unions has denied our people food or transportation. We cannot take the sick and pregnant women to hospitals. Waterborne diseases have spread in the occupied land," say the Vedi leaders. "We will not leave the place without getting land. The land allotment should be uniform for all landless people, above caste and creed considerations," said Ms. Seleena in reply to a question on the proposal to allot land to only the Scheduled Caste and Scheduled Tribe sections Meanwhile, plantation workers say the encroachment of the private estate has denied them their livelihood. "We are not against allotment of land to the landless poor people, if any, among the encroachers. But it should not affect our job prospects," say Koshy Baby and V.R. Shaji, plantation workers' trade union leaders. From indersalim at gmail.com Sun Sep 7 00:48:01 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 00:48:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70809061140n3f24f95cpf5ff5953a49217c@mail.gmail.com> References: <821912.19661.qm@web57211.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <6353c690809030754n46e01c85va5267b772467649f@mail.gmail.com> <13df7c120809052249j449f2d1ahdbf3c72236d07f8b@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809060001o1e15116dkb2b0502462d8bd5f@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690809060744w1aab3fb8sa79fd383ca18f25a@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70809060848l9401fcdledbad1da01dfb823@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70809061140n3f24f95cpf5ff5953a49217c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70809061218q5b3e47c1lae8f170f87de1239@mail.gmail.com> Dear brother Pawan ji about sahib, when i say i sahib to somebody, i respect myself. i still say sahib to my cousin brother who sold my land in kashmir without my consent, the case is in High court before the Hon'ble Judge sahib. about Shuddha , our brother, dear Kshmendra sahib thinks he is simply brilliant. i agree. About Brussels. I was in London when i met Secretrary of J&K Cultralal Academy, Zafar Minhas sahib who is a harsh critic of Geelani sahib just before he went to meet the Track II in Brussels to meet other sahibs. Murtaza sahib shall answer the question if there is any addressed to him. about my identity. yes, a line by Ghalib, kush hoon ki samajna hai muhal mujay ( i am happy that i am difficult to negotiate ) even ambigous. so what love is On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 12:10 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Dear Inder Ji, > Without sounding rude, i must tell you that there is something very wrong > with yuour identity which you are unable to identify with. > What does make you to call Geelani a "sahbi: time to time. He is a criminal > who according to me deserves a very harsh punishment. > You also have never sent a rejoinder to a so called journalist like Murtaza, > who till date has not revealed why he is called a "paid" agent of a > Brussel organization ? > Regarding Shuddhaa , He is one of those kinds who would teach me the basics > of Biscoe School ? LoL...and I was a 3rd generation in that school. > Shuddha is just few years too old to debate with my 4 year old son about > Kashmir. There is no doubt that like you Shuddha is like a "Kosi" river > ....just gone haywire ...only to destroy a peaceful mind. > Pawan > > > On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 9:18 PM, inder salim wrote: >> >> Dear Rashneek >> >> some times back Mr. Kshmendra said something similar to me, >> >> " you deserve to be ignored " >> >> and now it is you who said it to Shuddha. >> >> I beleive, anybody who had developed a dislike for a particular person >> may simply prese the botton ' delete' >> >> it is too easy. >> because to express the anger on the list is worst than even 2+2=5. >> >> now, coming back to the basic question of 'Land and Freedom in >> Kashmir' as seen in the present and beyond: >> >> We all know what is the the stand of an Nationlaist Indian. There is >> nothing new, What you are saying is no differnt from Man Mohan Singh >> ji, our PM. >> >> But if the religion of all Kashmiris is ' AZADI then how to convert >> them all into other religion which is Indian Nationalism in this case. >> >> I think it is very simple. Army and police and other reasoning has >> not helped us. >> I too would like to see a change of heart in kashmir. but, after 1990 >> that possiblity looks now remote. Whatever the reasons... >> >> Yes, Kashmiri pandits have a legal claim in the valley, but that can >> be the part of a real discussion, as and when it happens between the >> representatives of all the inhabitants of the disputed territory. >> >> Now disturbes my personally, is that the fact that the Hindu Right >> wing has politically appropriated the whole intellectual worth of >> Kashmiri pandits. which is not different from Jamat-i-Islami's effort >> to represent the whole of AZADI in kashmir. Kashmiri pandits need to >> write about it boldly. And if there is none, they one Advani-cum-Modi >> is enough to represent them. That will be unfortunate. >> >> We all know how people in kahsmir are handling this issue. Everything >> is hazy, but we have recently witnessed how Geelani sahib had to >> retract from his claim of total representation. So similarly you too >> need to think that every kashmniri pandit is not necessarly a >> VHP/BJP/BajrangDal/ShivSanik lover. Let us respect the possiblity. >> >> then that will amount to 2+2=4 >> >> with love >> is >> >> >> >> >> Just press the delete button, anything that you consider >> On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 8:14 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul >> wrote: >> > Dear Aarti, >> > >> > You are so right. We just can't ignore Shuddha's posts on this forum. He >> > needs to be corrected from time to time, hence, we just can't remain >> > silent. >> > >> > >> > Be careful Aarti.Disinformation spread can be dangerous. >> > >> > Warm Regards, >> > Aditya Raj Kaul >> > >> > On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 12:31 PM, Aarti Sethi >> > wrote: >> > >> >> Really? Is that so? In which case every post shuddha writes, rife with >> >> inaccuracies and and ignorance, should immediately get a response from >> >> you >> >> setting the record straight. Instead, what we witness is a deafening >> >> silence. Be careful and intelligent about whom you choose as your >> >> adversaries Rashneek. And I think you are well aware of whose posts are >> >> generally ignored on this list and it certainly isn't Shuddha. >> >> >> >> regards >> >> Aarti >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 11:19 AM, rashneek kher >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> All that notwithstanding, Shuddha's knowledge and understanding of >> >>> either >> >>> history or politics is of Kashmir is so poor or so full of inaccuries >> >>> (intentional as well ignorant) that it is time we start ignoring his >> >>> posts >> >>> on Kashmir. >> >>> >> >>> Regards >> >>> >> >>> Rashneek >> >>> >> >>> On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 8:24 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul >> >>> > >>> >wrote: >> >>> >> >>> > And, In a recent lecture in Jamia University, he was no different. >> >>> > Advocating pan-Islamist movement in Kashmir. >> >>> > >> >>> > On 9/3/08, Lalit Ambardar wrote: >> >>> > > >> >>> > > It is not surprising.AG Noorani is a known sympathiser of the >> >>> > > Kashmiri >> >>> > pan >> >>> > > Islamists & their cause. He ran a campaign series in support of >> >>> > > the >> >>> > > separatists in HT for years .The very fact that Noorani has chosen >> >>> > > to >> >>> > call >> >>> > > Jammuites as 'communal forces' & 'parivar' & the accord itself as >> >>> > > 'gunah-e-bey lazzat' & describe those who attempt to seek "azadi >> >>> > > -bara >> >>> -e >> >>> > > -Islam" as 'victims' says it all. >> >>> > > >> >>> > > Noorani once went overboard in " don't be fence-sitters " (HT New >> >>> > Delhi/May >> >>> > > 8, 2007) in his appreciation of Sayad Sallahudin of HM & the >> >>> al-Qeada >> >>> > > affiliate LeT. In a bizarre coincidence , the day LeT chief >> >>> > > allegedly >> >>> > > assured some Gen. Patankar of his willingness to come to India for >> >>> talks >> >>> > > (...????....) as claimed by Noorani in the article , that very day >> >>> Hafeez >> >>> > > Sayad confessed to the reporters in Islamabad about the existence >> >>> > > of >> >>> > > terrorist infrastructure in Pakistan & declared his resolve to >> >>> > > carry >> >>> on >> >>> > the >> >>> > > 'jihad' to its logical conclusion (Ref. TNN/ Times of India, >> >>> > > DEL/May8' >> >>> > 07/ >> >>> > > page no.13). >> >>> > > LA >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > > Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 03:55:11 -0700> From: >> >>> > > > kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com >> >>> > >> >>> > To: >> >>> > > shuddha at sarai.net> CC: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: >> >>> [Reader-list] >> >>> > > Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > >> >>> >> >>> http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1 >> >>> > >> >>> > > > >> >>> > > > > --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> >>> > wrote:> >> >>> > > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Subject: Re: >> >>> > > [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord> >> >>> > > To: >> >>> > > "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > Cc: "Sarai list" < >> >>> > > reader-list at sarai.net>> Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 4:07 >> >>> > > PM> >> >>> > >> >>> > > Dear all,> > The link to the Noorani article in the Greater >> >>> > > Kashmir >> >>> > > Newspaper in > my earlier post got inadvertently truncated. Here >> >>> > > is >> >>> the >> >>> > > correct link.> > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp? > >> >>> > > Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> > Thanks, Tilak Upadhyay for >> >>> > > pointing >> >>> this >> >>> > > out.> > best,> > Shuddha> > On 03-Sep-08, at 3:16 PM, Shuddhabrata >> >>> > Sengupta >> >>> > > wrote: Dear all> > > Dear All,> >> > An unusual intensity of >> >>> > > hunger >> >>> for >> >>> > land >> >>> > > unites corporations, state> > agencies and shrine boards in India. >> >>> > Captains >> >>> > > of Industry,> > politicians and land hungry divines seem to be >> >>> > > more >> >>> > > interested in> > acrage than in anything else. The Mahabharata >> >>> mentions >> >>> > the >> >>> > > burning of> > the Khandava forest to appease a hungry god, >> >>> inaugurating a >> >>> > > long> > history of burnt and erased forests and commons. It >> >>> > > appears as >> >>> it >> >>> > > we> > are surrounded now by 'hungry gods'. The Khandava-daha >> >>> continues.> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > > > Be it Chengara (thanks, Anivar Aravind for keeping us updated >> >>> > > > about> >> >>> > >> >>> > the >> >>> > > land struggle in Kerala, where the ruling CPI(M) led Left Front> > >> >>> > > is >> >>> > intent >> >>> > > on displacing indigenous communities from their land), or> > >> >>> > > Singur >> >>> > (where >> >>> > > again, the ruling CPI(M) wants to gift land 'free'> to a> > >> >>> > > gigantic >> >>> > > corporation or Amarnath, - the issues - remain the same -> > to do >> >>> with >> >>> > > state mediated acquisition of land, and the sequestering> > of >> >>> > > either >> >>> > > cultivator's land, or a natural commons into some form of> > >> >>> > > 'gated' >> >>> and >> >>> > > 'fenced' land.> >> > There has been some premature media spin >> >>> > > around >> >>> the >> >>> > > 'accord' that> has> > been reached with the Shree Amarnath Yatra >> >>> > Sangharsh >> >>> > > Samiti based in> > Jammu. On the face of it, the accord appears to >> >>> grant >> >>> > a >> >>> > > limited usage> > right to the Shree Amarnath Shrine Board. On >> >>> > > closer >> >>> > reading >> >>> > > of the> > text however, it becomes evident that the terms of this >> >>> > 'accord'> >> >>> > > are> > actually even more invasive than was the case with the >> >>> substance >> >>> > of> >> >>> > > > the original gubernatorial 'land transfer' order in May.> >> > I >> >>> > > > am >> >>> > > enclosing below - an article by A. G. Noorani, a well known> > >> >>> > > legal >> >>> > > historian and practitioner of constitutional law, titled> > 'An >> >>> Immoral >> >>> > and >> >>> > > Illegal Accord' which was published in the Greater> > Kashmir >> >>> newspaper >> >>> > > today. It is available on line at -> > >> >>> > > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?> > >> >>> > > Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> >> > Noorani carefully reads the >> >>> > > terms >> >>> of >> >>> > the >> >>> > > Amarnath Accord in this> > article. As I had pointed out before on >> >>> this >> >>> > list >> >>> > > (in my second post> > (dated 15th August, 2008) in the thread - >> >>> > > 'Gun >> >>> > Salutes >> >>> > > for August> > 15' in response to Sonia Jabbar and Aditya Raj Kaul >> >>> > > - >> >>> the >> >>> > > anger in> > Kashmir has a lot to do with the arbitrary acquisition >> >>> > > of >> >>> > land - >> >>> > > I> > had shown, using state government figures, how the equivalent >> >>> > > of >> >>> > one> > >> >>> > > in ten fruit orchards can be said to be under the occupation of >> >>> > > the> > >> >>> > Armed >> >>> > > Forces. The 'Amarnath Land Transfer' issue needs to be seen> in> > >> >>> this >> >>> > > context.> >> > As long as that anger (regarding the alienation of >> >>> land) >> >>> > is >> >>> > > not> > addressed, the people of Kashmir will have no reason, in >> >>> > > my> > >> >>> > > estimation, to think of themselves as anything but under a brutal >> >>> > > and> >> >>> > >> >>> > > unrelenting occupation. The current 'Amarnath Accord' in my view,> >> >>> > > > >> >>> > worsens >> >>> > > the situation, and can alienate the people of Kashmir (for> > the >> >>> reasons >> >>> > > that Noorani underlines below) even more. As such, it can> > only >> >>> > > be >> >>> > viewed >> >>> > > as yet another provocation, yet another disaster, in> > the long >> >>> > > and >> >>> > > undistinguished record of the Government of India's> > tragic >> >>> blundering >> >>> > on >> >>> > > Kashmir. It cannot but prove to be divisive in a> > situation that >> >>> > urgently >> >>> > > requires the opposite.> >> > regards> >> > Shuddha> >> > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > ====================================================================== >> >>> > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > ==> > =======================> >> > An Immoral and Illegal Accord> >> >>> > > > >> >>> > Greater >> >>> > > Kashmir, September 03, 2008> > A G NOORANI> >> > Srinagar, Sep 2: >> >>> > > The >> >>> > accord >> >>> > > between the Jammu and Kashmir government> > and the Shri Amarnath >> >>> Yatra >> >>> > > Sangharsh Samiti on 31 August is far> > worse than the >> >>> > > government's >> >>> order >> >>> > > only three months earlier on 26> > May. It grants the SAYSS >> >>> concessions >> >>> > > beyond what the May order did.> > It is one-sided and marks an >> >>> > > abject >> >>> > > surrender to violence, blockade> > and to communal forces. The >> >>> > differences >> >>> > > between the order and accord> > are glaring. Here is a list:> >> > >> >>> > > 1. >> >>> The >> >>> > > order was made pursuant to a decision on 20 May by the cabinet> > >> >>> > > in >> >>> > which >> >>> > > both Jammu and Kashmir were represented. The accord> > completely >> >>> ignores >> >>> > > Kashmir where the land is to be given. Jammu alone> > was >> >>> > > represented. >> >>> A >> >>> > > week earlier, there was a clampdown in the Valley> > and top >> >>> > > leaders >> >>> were >> >>> > > arrested.> >> > 2. Even the controversial order nowhere used the >> >>> > > word >> >>> > > "exclusive".> > The SAYSS felt so emboldened as to demand it and >> >>> threaten >> >>> > to >> >>> > > wreck> > the deal if it was not conceded. The government yielded >> >>> > > in >> >>> the >> >>> > > early> > hours of 31 August. Para 6A says that the Government >> >>> > > "shall >> >>> set >> >>> > > aside> > for use by Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board exclusively the >> >>> > > land >> >>> in> >> >>> > > >> >>> > > Baltal and Domail". This order unknown anywhere in the world is> > >> >>> > cloaked >> >>> > > under a lie by calling it "traditionally under use for the> > >> >>> > > annual >> >>> > yatra >> >>> > > purpose". The traditional route for over a century is> > the >> >>> > > Pahalgam >> >>> > route. >> >>> > > The Baltal route is a recent demand. It was> > regarded by the >> >>> > > Army >> >>> and >> >>> > > Nitish Sengupta Report as dangerous. It is> > also unnecessary if >> >>> > > the >> >>> > limit >> >>> > > of yatris set by the Report (1 lakh) is> > observed.> >> > 3. This >> >>> > violates >> >>> > > the citizen's fundamental right under Art. 19 (1) D> > to move >> >>> > > freely >> >>> > > throughout India. The demand of exclusivity was not> > made even >> >>> > > in >> >>> May >> >>> > 2008 >> >>> > > or in decades earlier. It is pure communal> > aggression using the >> >>> yatra >> >>> > for >> >>> > > political demonstration not religious> > piety.> >> > 4. The >> >>> > > duration >> >>> of >> >>> > use >> >>> > > is widened to cover pre and post yatra period.> > Para 6 C first >> >>> > > says >> >>> > that >> >>> > > the land will be used "for the duration of> > the yatra" including >> >>> > > the >> >>> > > period of preparations and winding up. But> > the very next para >> >>> > > has >> >>> > these >> >>> > > sinister words: "The aforesaid land> > shall be used according to >> >>> > > the >> >>> > > Board's requirements from time to> > time, including for the >> >>> following". >> >>> > > There follow 9 measures including> > construction, setting up of >> >>> > > the >> >>> > sheds >> >>> > > and shops etc. These can be> > done even beyond the yatra period >> >>> > > "from >> >>> > time >> >>> > > to time" and "according> > to the Board's requirements"; may be >> >>> > > all >> >>> the >> >>> > year >> >>> > > around.> >> > 5. Para 8 of the order insisted that the land "shall >> >>> > return" >> >>> > > to the> > State. This is dropped in the accord. This accomplishes >> >>> > > S.K. >> >>> > > Sinha's> > objective— permanent use the year round.> >> > 6. Also >> >>> dropped >> >>> > > totally is Para 4 on payment for user.> >> > 7. Dropped too is >> >>> > > Para 6. >> >>> An >> >>> > > undertaking of "foolproof measures> > against water pollution and >> >>> > > Para >> >>> 7 >> >>> > on >> >>> > > payment of fine for damage to> > the forest. There is a pious >> >>> provision >> >>> > in >> >>> > > accord Para 6 C (ix) among> > the objectives of land user; namely >> >>> > > "undertaking measures relating to> > … preservation of ecology" >> >>> > > etc. >> >>> > Breach >> >>> > > entails no fine.> >> > 8. The order of 26 May was rescinded on 1 >> >>> > > July. >> >>> > The >> >>> > > accord will> > require a fresh order to implement it. By itself >> >>> > > the >> >>> > accord >> >>> > > has no> > legal force. Section 2(a) of the J&K Forest >> >>> > > (Conservation) >> >>> Act >> >>> > > 1997> > says "the Government shall not, except on a resolution of >> >>> > > the >> >>> > > Council> > of Ministers based on the advice of the Advisory >> >>> Committee"> > >> >>> > > constituted under the Act "make any order directing that any >> >>> > > forest> > >> >>> > land >> >>> > > or any portion thereof may be used for any non-forest purpose".> > >> >>> > > The >> >>> > > earlier phrase "Council of ministers" merely was revised by an> > >> >>> > amendment >> >>> > > in 2001 and the Forest Advisory Committee's advice was> > added >> >>> > > and >> >>> made >> >>> > > mandatory. "Council of Ministers" is specific. It is> > different >> >>> > > from >> >>> > "J&K >> >>> > > Government" whose powers vest now in the> governor> > alone. The >> >>> > > law >> >>> > > intentionally provides the resolution as a safeguard.> > This >> >>> > > Council >> >>> can >> >>> > > come into existence only after the next elections.> > In any case >> >>> > > the >> >>> > Forest >> >>> > > Advisory Committees advice on 12 July 2007> > cannot apply to this >> >>> > > new >> >>> > > accord which must be vetted afresh by that> > Committee. It was >> >>> > > given >> >>> > before >> >>> > > the Supreme Court's final judgment in> > the T M Godavarman case >> >>> > > on 23 >> >>> > > November 2007 which lays down the law> > and makes important >> >>> observations >> >>> > on >> >>> > > balancing development with> > protection of environment. Failure >> >>> > > to >> >>> > consider >> >>> > > it vitiates the> > decision. Precisely based on misrepresentation >> >>> > > of >> >>> > opinion >> >>> > > of the> > deputy CM Muzaffar Hussain Beg and advocate general >> >>> > > Altaf >> >>> Naik >> >>> > > both> > of which were given in entirely difference cases.> >> > >> >>> > > The >> >>> > accord >> >>> > > lacks legal efficacy as well as moral and political> > legitimacy. >> >>> > > Any >> >>> > order >> >>> > > in its implementation will be void in law. It> > is a pity that >> >>> > > the >> >>> state >> >>> > > should bend all rules to buy peace with> > communal forces >> >>> > > including >> >>> > promise >> >>> > > to consider compensation for law-> > breakers. What of >> >>> > > compensation to >> >>> > the >> >>> > > Valley for the blockade? The> > parivar in Jammu has already begun >> >>> asking >> >>> > > for more. The Government> > has not bought peace but trouble. It >> >>> > > is >> >>> > > gunah-e-bey lazzat (sin> > without any taste.)> >> > If the state >> >>> > > can >> >>> > thus >> >>> > > bend its knees before the Sangh parivar on an> > issue like this, >> >>> > > what >> >>> > hopes >> >>> > > of justice can Kashmiris entertain when> > it comes to restoring >> >>> > > the >> >>> > raped >> >>> > > Article 370 to a status of worth and> > respect?> >> > END> >> > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > ====================================================================== >> >>> > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > ==> > =======================> >> >> >> > >> >>> > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open >> >>> > discussion >> >>> > > list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To >> >>> > subscribe: >> >>> > > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe >> >>> > > in >> >>> the >> >>> > > subject header.> > To unsubscribe: >> >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List >> >>> > > archive: >> >>> < >> >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > Shuddhabrata >> >>> Sengupta> >> >>> > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS> Raqs Media Collective> >> >>> > > shuddha at sarai.net >> >>> > >> >>> > > www.sarai.net> www.raqsmediacollective.net> > > >> >>> > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open >> >>> > discussion >> >>> > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To >> >>> > > subscribe: >> >>> > send >> >>> > > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in> the >> >>> subject >> >>> > > header.> To unsubscribe: >> >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List >> >>> > > archive: < >> >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > > > >> >>> > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open >> >>> > discussion >> >>> > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To >> >>> > > subscribe: >> >>> > send >> >>> > > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the >> >>> subject >> >>> > > header.> To unsubscribe: >> >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List >> >>> > > archive: < >> >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >>> > > _________________________________________________________________ >> >>> > > Want to explore the world? Visit MSN Travel for the best deals. >> >>> > > http://in.msn.com/coxandkings >> >>> > > _________________________________________ >> >>> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >>> > > Critiques & Collaborations >> >>> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >>> > > subscribe in the subject header. >> >>> > > To unsubscribe: >> >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >>> > > List archive: >> >>> > _________________________________________ >> >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >>> > subscribe in the subject header. >> >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> Rashneek Kher >> >>> Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten Human Tragedy >> >>> http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com >> >>> http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com >> >>> _________________________________________ >> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >>> Critiques & Collaborations >> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >>> subscribe in the subject header. >> >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Sun Sep 7 00:52:31 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 00:52:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70809061140n3f24f95cpf5ff5953a49217c@mail.gmail.com> References: <821912.19661.qm@web57211.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <6353c690809030754n46e01c85va5267b772467649f@mail.gmail.com> <13df7c120809052249j449f2d1ahdbf3c72236d07f8b@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809060001o1e15116dkb2b0502462d8bd5f@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690809060744w1aab3fb8sa79fd383ca18f25a@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70809060848l9401fcdledbad1da01dfb823@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70809061140n3f24f95cpf5ff5953a49217c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0809061222r5ed5472bobc8768f09ca08a4@mail.gmail.com> Pawan, How is working with a brussel's based organisation a statement about someone's credibility? Is a job being a "paid agent'? Then we are all "paid agents" of someone or the other. The kashmir affairs website says quite clearly that it is a non-funded organisation. If you know something the rest of us don't, then maybe you should share it with the list. Otherwise your attack on Murtaza makes no sense whatsoever. Aarti > > > > On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 9:18 PM, inder salim wrote: > > > Dear Rashneek > > > > some times back Mr. Kshmendra said something similar to me, > > > > " you deserve to be ignored " > > > > and now it is you who said it to Shuddha. > > > > I beleive, anybody who had developed a dislike for a particular person > > may simply prese the botton ' delete' > > > > it is too easy. > > because to express the anger on the list is worst than even 2+2=5. > > > > now, coming back to the basic question of 'Land and Freedom in > > Kashmir' as seen in the present and beyond: > > > > We all know what is the the stand of an Nationlaist Indian. There is > > nothing new, What you are saying is no differnt from Man Mohan Singh > > ji, our PM. > > > > But if the religion of all Kashmiris is ' AZADI then how to convert > > them all into other religion which is Indian Nationalism in this case. > > > > I think it is very simple. Army and police and other reasoning has > > not helped us. > > I too would like to see a change of heart in kashmir. but, after 1990 > > that possiblity looks now remote. Whatever the reasons... > > > > Yes, Kashmiri pandits have a legal claim in the valley, but that can > > be the part of a real discussion, as and when it happens between the > > representatives of all the inhabitants of the disputed territory. > > > > Now disturbes my personally, is that the fact that the Hindu Right > > wing has politically appropriated the whole intellectual worth of > > Kashmiri pandits. which is not different from Jamat-i-Islami's effort > > to represent the whole of AZADI in kashmir. Kashmiri pandits need to > > write about it boldly. And if there is none, they one Advani-cum-Modi > > is enough to represent them. That will be unfortunate. > > > > We all know how people in kahsmir are handling this issue. Everything > > is hazy, but we have recently witnessed how Geelani sahib had to > > retract from his claim of total representation. So similarly you too > > need to think that every kashmniri pandit is not necessarly a > > VHP/BJP/BajrangDal/ShivSanik lover. Let us respect the possiblity. > > > > then that will amount to 2+2=4 > > > > with love > > is > > > > > > > > > > Just press the delete button, anything that you consider > > On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 8:14 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > > > wrote: > > > Dear Aarti, > > > > > > You are so right. We just can't ignore Shuddha's posts on this forum. > He > > > needs to be corrected from time to time, hence, we just can't remain > > silent. > > > > > > > > > Be careful Aarti.Disinformation spread can be dangerous. > > > > > > Warm Regards, > > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 12:31 PM, Aarti Sethi > > wrote: > > > > > >> Really? Is that so? In which case every post shuddha writes, rife with > > >> inaccuracies and and ignorance, should immediately get a response from > > you > > >> setting the record straight. Instead, what we witness is a deafening > > >> silence. Be careful and intelligent about whom you choose as your > > >> adversaries Rashneek. And I think you are well aware of whose posts > are > > >> generally ignored on this list and it certainly isn't Shuddha. > > >> > > >> regards > > >> Aarti > > >> > > >> > > >> On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 11:19 AM, rashneek kher > > wrote: > > >> > > >>> All that notwithstanding, Shuddha's knowledge and understanding of > > either > > >>> history or politics is of Kashmir is so poor or so full of inaccuries > > >>> (intentional as well ignorant) that it is time we start ignoring his > > posts > > >>> on Kashmir. > > >>> > > >>> Regards > > >>> > > >>> Rashneek > > >>> > > >>> On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 8:24 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul < > > kauladityaraj at gmail.com > > >>> >wrote: > > >>> > > >>> > And, In a recent lecture in Jamia University, he was no different. > > >>> > Advocating pan-Islamist movement in Kashmir. > > >>> > > > >>> > On 9/3/08, Lalit Ambardar wrote: > > >>> > > > > >>> > > It is not surprising.AG Noorani is a known sympathiser of the > > Kashmiri > > >>> > pan > > >>> > > Islamists & their cause. He ran a campaign series in support of > > the > > >>> > > separatists in HT for years .The very fact that Noorani has > chosen > > to > > >>> > call > > >>> > > Jammuites as 'communal forces' & 'parivar' & the accord itself as > > >>> > > 'gunah-e-bey lazzat' & describe those who attempt to seek "azadi > > -bara > > >>> -e > > >>> > > -Islam" as 'victims' says it all. > > >>> > > > > >>> > > Noorani once went overboard in " don't be fence-sitters " (HT New > > >>> > Delhi/May > > >>> > > 8, 2007) in his appreciation of Sayad Sallahudin of HM & the > > >>> al-Qeada > > >>> > > affiliate LeT. In a bizarre coincidence , the day LeT chief > > allegedly > > >>> > > assured some Gen. Patankar of his willingness to come to India > for > > >>> talks > > >>> > > (...????....) as claimed by Noorani in the article , that very > day > > >>> Hafeez > > >>> > > Sayad confessed to the reporters in Islamabad about the existence > > of > > >>> > > terrorist infrastructure in Pakistan & declared his resolve to > > carry > > >>> on > > >>> > the > > >>> > > 'jihad' to its logical conclusion (Ref. TNN/ Times of India, > > DEL/May8' > > >>> > 07/ > > >>> > > page no.13). > > >>> > > LA > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 03:55:11 -0700> From: > > kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > > >>> > > > >>> > To: > > >>> > > shuddha at sarai.net> CC: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: > > >>> [Reader-list] > > >>> > > Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1 > > >>> > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > > >>> > wrote:> > > >>> > > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Subject: Re: > > >>> > > [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath > Accord> > > To: > > >>> > > "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > Cc: "Sarai list" < > > >>> > > reader-list at sarai.net>> Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 4:07 > > PM> > > >>> > > > >>> > > Dear all,> > The link to the Noorani article in the Greater > Kashmir > > >>> > > Newspaper in > my earlier post got inadvertently truncated. Here > is > > >>> the > > >>> > > correct link.> > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp? > > > >>> > > Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> > Thanks, Tilak Upadhyay for > > pointing > > >>> this > > >>> > > out.> > best,> > Shuddha> > On 03-Sep-08, at 3:16 PM, > Shuddhabrata > > >>> > Sengupta > > >>> > > wrote: Dear all> > > Dear All,> >> > An unusual intensity of > hunger > > >>> for > > >>> > land > > >>> > > unites corporations, state> > agencies and shrine boards in > India. > > >>> > Captains > > >>> > > of Industry,> > politicians and land hungry divines seem to be > more > > >>> > > interested in> > acrage than in anything else. The Mahabharata > > >>> mentions > > >>> > the > > >>> > > burning of> > the Khandava forest to appease a hungry god, > > >>> inaugurating a > > >>> > > long> > history of burnt and erased forests and commons. It > appears > > as > > >>> it > > >>> > > we> > are surrounded now by 'hungry gods'. The Khandava-daha > > >>> continues.> > > >>> > >> > > >>> > > > Be it Chengara (thanks, Anivar Aravind for keeping us updated > > about> > > >>> > > > >>> > the > > >>> > > land struggle in Kerala, where the ruling CPI(M) led Left Front> > > > > is > > >>> > intent > > >>> > > on displacing indigenous communities from their land), or> > > Singur > > >>> > (where > > >>> > > again, the ruling CPI(M) wants to gift land 'free'> to a> > > > gigantic > > >>> > > corporation or Amarnath, - the issues - remain the same -> > to > do > > >>> with > > >>> > > state mediated acquisition of land, and the sequestering> > of > > either > > >>> > > cultivator's land, or a natural commons into some form of> > > > 'gated' > > >>> and > > >>> > > 'fenced' land.> >> > There has been some premature media spin > > around > > >>> the > > >>> > > 'accord' that> has> > been reached with the Shree Amarnath Yatra > > >>> > Sangharsh > > >>> > > Samiti based in> > Jammu. On the face of it, the accord appears > to > > >>> grant > > >>> > a > > >>> > > limited usage> > right to the Shree Amarnath Shrine Board. On > > closer > > >>> > reading > > >>> > > of the> > text however, it becomes evident that the terms of this > > >>> > 'accord'> > > >>> > > are> > actually even more invasive than was the case with the > > >>> substance > > >>> > of> > > >>> > > > the original gubernatorial 'land transfer' order in May.> >> > > I > > am > > >>> > > enclosing below - an article by A. G. Noorani, a well known> > > > legal > > >>> > > historian and practitioner of constitutional law, titled> > 'An > > >>> Immoral > > >>> > and > > >>> > > Illegal Accord' which was published in the Greater> > Kashmir > > >>> newspaper > > >>> > > today. It is available on line at -> > > > >>> > > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?> > > > >>> > > Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> >> > Noorani carefully reads the > > terms > > >>> of > > >>> > the > > >>> > > Amarnath Accord in this> > article. As I had pointed out before > on > > >>> this > > >>> > list > > >>> > > (in my second post> > (dated 15th August, 2008) in the thread - > > 'Gun > > >>> > Salutes > > >>> > > for August> > 15' in response to Sonia Jabbar and Aditya Raj Kaul > - > > >>> the > > >>> > > anger in> > Kashmir has a lot to do with the arbitrary > acquisition > > of > > >>> > land - > > >>> > > I> > had shown, using state government figures, how the > equivalent > > of > > >>> > one> > > > >>> > > in ten fruit orchards can be said to be under the occupation of > > the> > > > >>> > Armed > > >>> > > Forces. The 'Amarnath Land Transfer' issue needs to be seen> in> > > > > >>> this > > >>> > > context.> >> > As long as that anger (regarding the alienation of > > >>> land) > > >>> > is > > >>> > > not> > addressed, the people of Kashmir will have no reason, in > my> > > > > > >>> > > estimation, to think of themselves as anything but under a brutal > > and> > > >>> > > > >>> > > unrelenting occupation. The current 'Amarnath Accord' in my > view,> > > > > > >>> > worsens > > >>> > > the situation, and can alienate the people of Kashmir (for> > the > > >>> reasons > > >>> > > that Noorani underlines below) even more. As such, it can> > only > > be > > >>> > viewed > > >>> > > as yet another provocation, yet another disaster, in> > the long > > and > > >>> > > undistinguished record of the Government of India's> > tragic > > >>> blundering > > >>> > on > > >>> > > Kashmir. It cannot but prove to be divisive in a> > situation > that > > >>> > urgently > > >>> > > requires the opposite.> >> > regards> >> > Shuddha> >> > > > >>> > > > > ====================================================================== > > >>> > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > ==> > =======================> >> > An Immoral and Illegal > Accord> > > > > > >>> > Greater > > >>> > > Kashmir, September 03, 2008> > A G NOORANI> >> > Srinagar, Sep 2: > > The > > >>> > accord > > >>> > > between the Jammu and Kashmir government> > and the Shri Amarnath > > >>> Yatra > > >>> > > Sangharsh Samiti on 31 August is far> > worse than the > government's > > >>> order > > >>> > > only three months earlier on 26> > May. It grants the SAYSS > > >>> concessions > > >>> > > beyond what the May order did.> > It is one-sided and marks an > > abject > > >>> > > surrender to violence, blockade> > and to communal forces. The > > >>> > differences > > >>> > > between the order and accord> > are glaring. Here is a list:> >> > > > > 1. > > >>> The > > >>> > > order was made pursuant to a decision on 20 May by the cabinet> > > > in > > >>> > which > > >>> > > both Jammu and Kashmir were represented. The accord> > completely > > >>> ignores > > >>> > > Kashmir where the land is to be given. Jammu alone> > was > > represented. > > >>> A > > >>> > > week earlier, there was a clampdown in the Valley> > and top > > leaders > > >>> were > > >>> > > arrested.> >> > 2. Even the controversial order nowhere used the > > word > > >>> > > "exclusive".> > The SAYSS felt so emboldened as to demand it and > > >>> threaten > > >>> > to > > >>> > > wreck> > the deal if it was not conceded. The government yielded > in > > >>> the > > >>> > > early> > hours of 31 August. Para 6A says that the Government > > "shall > > >>> set > > >>> > > aside> > for use by Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board exclusively the > > land > > >>> in> > > >>> > > > > >>> > > Baltal and Domail". This order unknown anywhere in the world is> > > > > >>> > cloaked > > >>> > > under a lie by calling it "traditionally under use for the> > > > annual > > >>> > yatra > > >>> > > purpose". The traditional route for over a century is> > the > > Pahalgam > > >>> > route. > > >>> > > The Baltal route is a recent demand. It was> > regarded by the > Army > > >>> and > > >>> > > Nitish Sengupta Report as dangerous. It is> > also unnecessary if > > the > > >>> > limit > > >>> > > of yatris set by the Report (1 lakh) is> > observed.> >> > 3. > This > > >>> > violates > > >>> > > the citizen's fundamental right under Art. 19 (1) D> > to move > > freely > > >>> > > throughout India. The demand of exclusivity was not> > made even > in > > >>> May > > >>> > 2008 > > >>> > > or in decades earlier. It is pure communal> > aggression using > the > > >>> yatra > > >>> > for > > >>> > > political demonstration not religious> > piety.> >> > 4. The > > duration > > >>> of > > >>> > use > > >>> > > is widened to cover pre and post yatra period.> > Para 6 C first > > says > > >>> > that > > >>> > > the land will be used "for the duration of> > the yatra" > including > > the > > >>> > > period of preparations and winding up. But> > the very next para > > has > > >>> > these > > >>> > > sinister words: "The aforesaid land> > shall be used according to > > the > > >>> > > Board's requirements from time to> > time, including for the > > >>> following". > > >>> > > There follow 9 measures including> > construction, setting up of > > the > > >>> > sheds > > >>> > > and shops etc. These can be> > done even beyond the yatra period > > "from > > >>> > time > > >>> > > to time" and "according> > to the Board's requirements"; may be > all > > >>> the > > >>> > year > > >>> > > around.> >> > 5. Para 8 of the order insisted that the land > "shall > > >>> > return" > > >>> > > to the> > State. This is dropped in the accord. This accomplishes > > S.K. > > >>> > > Sinha's> > objective— permanent use the year round.> >> > 6. Also > > >>> dropped > > >>> > > totally is Para 4 on payment for user.> >> > 7. Dropped too is > Para > > 6. > > >>> An > > >>> > > undertaking of "foolproof measures> > against water pollution and > > Para > > >>> 7 > > >>> > on > > >>> > > payment of fine for damage to> > the forest. There is a pious > > >>> provision > > >>> > in > > >>> > > accord Para 6 C (ix) among> > the objectives of land user; namely > > >>> > > "undertaking measures relating to> > … preservation of ecology" > > etc. > > >>> > Breach > > >>> > > entails no fine.> >> > 8. The order of 26 May was rescinded on 1 > > July. > > >>> > The > > >>> > > accord will> > require a fresh order to implement it. By itself > the > > >>> > accord > > >>> > > has no> > legal force. Section 2(a) of the J&K Forest > > (Conservation) > > >>> Act > > >>> > > 1997> > says "the Government shall not, except on a resolution of > > the > > >>> > > Council> > of Ministers based on the advice of the Advisory > > >>> Committee"> > > > >>> > > constituted under the Act "make any order directing that any > > forest> > > > >>> > land > > >>> > > or any portion thereof may be used for any non-forest purpose".> > > > > The > > >>> > > earlier phrase "Council of ministers" merely was revised by an> > > > >>> > amendment > > >>> > > in 2001 and the Forest Advisory Committee's advice was> > added > and > > >>> made > > >>> > > mandatory. "Council of Ministers" is specific. It is> > different > > from > > >>> > "J&K > > >>> > > Government" whose powers vest now in the> governor> > alone. The > > law > > >>> > > intentionally provides the resolution as a safeguard.> > This > > Council > > >>> can > > >>> > > come into existence only after the next elections.> > In any case > > the > > >>> > Forest > > >>> > > Advisory Committees advice on 12 July 2007> > cannot apply to > this > > new > > >>> > > accord which must be vetted afresh by that> > Committee. It was > > given > > >>> > before > > >>> > > the Supreme Court's final judgment in> > the T M Godavarman case > on > > 23 > > >>> > > November 2007 which lays down the law> > and makes important > > >>> observations > > >>> > on > > >>> > > balancing development with> > protection of environment. Failure > to > > >>> > consider > > >>> > > it vitiates the> > decision. Precisely based on misrepresentation > > of > > >>> > opinion > > >>> > > of the> > deputy CM Muzaffar Hussain Beg and advocate general > Altaf > > >>> Naik > > >>> > > both> > of which were given in entirely difference cases.> >> > > The > > >>> > accord > > >>> > > lacks legal efficacy as well as moral and political> > > legitimacy. > > Any > > >>> > order > > >>> > > in its implementation will be void in law. It> > is a pity that > the > > >>> state > > >>> > > should bend all rules to buy peace with> > communal forces > > including > > >>> > promise > > >>> > > to consider compensation for law-> > breakers. What of > compensation > > to > > >>> > the > > >>> > > Valley for the blockade? The> > parivar in Jammu has already > begun > > >>> asking > > >>> > > for more. The Government> > has not bought peace but trouble. It > is > > >>> > > gunah-e-bey lazzat (sin> > without any taste.)> >> > If the state > > can > > >>> > thus > > >>> > > bend its knees before the Sangh parivar on an> > issue like this, > > what > > >>> > hopes > > >>> > > of justice can Kashmiris entertain when> > it comes to restoring > > the > > >>> > raped > > >>> > > Article 370 to a status of worth and> > respect?> >> > END> >> > > > >>> > > > > ====================================================================== > > >>> > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > ==> > =======================> >> >> >> > > > >>> > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open > > >>> > discussion > > >>> > > list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To > > >>> > subscribe: > > >>> > > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe > > in > > >>> the > > >>> > > subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List > > archive: > > >>> < > > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > Shuddhabrata > > >>> Sengupta> > > >>> > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS> Raqs Media Collective> > > shuddha at sarai.net > > >>> > > > >>> > > www.sarai.net> www.raqsmediacollective.net> > > > > >>> > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open > > >>> > discussion > > >>> > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To > > subscribe: > > >>> > send > > >>> > > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in> the > > >>> subject > > >>> > > header.> To unsubscribe: > > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List > > archive: < > > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > > > > > >>> > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open > > >>> > discussion > > >>> > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To > > subscribe: > > >>> > send > > >>> > > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > > >>> subject > > >>> > > header.> To unsubscribe: > > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List > > archive: < > > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >>> > > _________________________________________________________________ > > >>> > > Want to explore the world? Visit MSN Travel for the best deals. > > >>> > > http://in.msn.com/coxandkings > > >>> > > _________________________________________ > > >>> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >>> > > Critiques & Collaborations > > >>> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > >>> > > subscribe in the subject header. > > >>> > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >>> > > List archive: > > >>> > _________________________________________ > > >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >>> > Critiques & Collaborations > > >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >>> > subscribe in the subject header. > > >>> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> -- > > >>> Rashneek Kher > > >>> Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten Human Tragedy > > >>> http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com > > >>> http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com > > >>> _________________________________________ > > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >>> subscribe in the subject header. > > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > -- > > > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From indersalim at gmail.com Sun Sep 7 00:54:35 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 00:54:35 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] what is 'ready-made' in politics? Message-ID: <47e122a70809061224m6d2f6776t1b996927691ae4d0@mail.gmail.com> WHAT IS READY-MADE IN POLITICS ? Felix Guattari's use of term 'readymade' is endless…and numerous other ways in which this term has been used to define politics even. The term itself is a ready-made now. I am thinking of Kashmir and other such sounds which have gained a ready-made status in the present and can be mixed with other ready-mades quite freely. Although a little vaguely, but it does boarder on various other connected issues, simultaneously. Unafraid of ambiguities arising out of such approaches, here, first, an amateurish beginning into the pedagogy ( readymade ) of 'readymade'. The term found art—more commonly found object (French: objet trouvé) or readymade—describes art created from the undisguised, but often modified, use of objects that are not normally considered art, often because they already have a mundane, utilitarian function. Marcel Duchamp was the originator of this in the early 20th-century. He submitted a 'urinal' as an art object for an art exhibition, which was rejected by the organizers that time. The moment the urinal was dismissed as work of art it quickly gained the reputation of an act of subversion. It succeeded to generate a huge discourse on art and aesthetics of 'the times' then, which art critics find cognitive even in the present. Here, the unpredictability of the most un-aesthetic object functioned as radical against the overproduction of (aesthetic ) art objects. It was not aimed to dislodge aesthetics, but a courageous placement of the most relevant. If 'the birth' means that we have been almost thrown into a ready-made world, which is nevertheless changing, then the body in-itself becomes a site called ready-made. Flex Guattari says that the body is the target of IWC ( Integrated World Capitalism ). If the whole humanity is in some sort of 'flux', then IWC is gearing us to a destination without us. Everything thing is culturally and economically valued and passed on to the next generation as a virtue. However, the next generation automatically verifies it and revalues each and every object and concept. But it often takes an artist like Duchamp to point out that the value making mechanisms can go unwittingly wrong if we don't fix a critical gaze on each and every thing which we are made up of. So what are we made up of? Biologically, there is 'shit' in each one of us besides some blood, some bones. In the past, both in art and literature, there was never any such need felt to see some metaphor in 'shit' but our times are so shitty that even a direct representation of 'shit as shit' fails to measure the quantum of our chaos. Therefore, that 'out of frame' thing is in demand, which can restore, to some extent, that buried vital, necessary for the continuity of survival on this earth. Isn't this about politics as well? Derrida circulates a discourse, of what is and is not of art. 'Writing out of frame', is something that is hovering at the edge of the painting and beyond. Earlier, the real function of read-made was perhaps limited to the sphere of art only, but what we can not ignore is the fact that production of an Art object often reflects the political nature of a particular time. Be it economy or aesthetics, the art and cultural expressions swim through the waters of every kind. Certainly read-made as a concept could not have happened during Renaissance, and therefore, when the sweetly dissolvable character of aesthetics reached its saturation point, it automatically began to justify the concept of ready-made. The ready-made was already happening while the alchemy of art was busy churning newer forms of art as per the conventional norms, which were significant ( that too can function as ready-made in a different sense). So a readymade is usually found in the public space, which is heavy with historicity ,and therefore, a ready-made battle zone. A ready-made is visible and also invisible , in matter and conceptually as well. So ready-made in politics can only happen if politics, both creatively and willingly, allows itself to be used as ready-made. Politics, conventionally has been generating 'the other' as waste material which is almost similar to e-waste in the present context. So if the e-waste is considered a necessary recycling component of the technology by environmentally conscious masses, then the mountains of political waste material too can be recycled. This way it can disseminates its commitment to our society with a fecundity which we have not witnessed before. If Politics is an automatic machine like thing then it is the function of a ready-made to guide us in such a way that other hierarchies too fall in line. Upon this earth, if there is a ready-made Paradise it is in Kashmir, only in Kashmir. But can we enter it without going through some challenges ? Yeh 'ready-made' nahin assan, bus itna samaj leejaya, Ek Aag ka darya hai, aur doob kay jana hai ( This ready-made is not easy, just consider the fact that it is a river of hell, and we have jump in it to cross it ). Having replaced 'ishq' ( Love ) with word 'ready-made', from a famous Firaq couplet, I have perhaps, replaced 'the desire' from this ready-made paradise with something even more intense: let us say ' one minus territory'. It might lead to the intensification of the desire itself, which is the desire. So, many hierarchies, including 'politics as casually understood', might undergo a change of face. And that can happen only if we look critically into our 'ways of living '. My mother who died few years back, once told me a bed time story of a habitual found-object-lifter who one day found a dead rat ( as a found object), while returning back home from his work. The poor man instantly threw the dead rat on his small thatched roof. Sooner an eagle who had earlier lifted a diamond necklace from the garden where a princess was having a bath, swapped it with the dead rat. Sooner the poor family was duly rewarded by the King. So the found object, here a dead-rat, worst than a 'urinal', gave us a moral that everything has a value. Even nuisance has a value called nuisance value. Perhaps, we need to listen to even what we think as idiotic. Jean Baudrillard, says that once we used to say why there is something rather than nothing, but now we think about why there is nothing rather than something. Ways of Living on this earth are facing some stark realities- of environmental degradation and social inequalities. If the ready-made, paradise as landscape is disappearing as fast as day light at the dusk, then what are the ways of redefining the political? Can we introduce 'word 'environment' in any current struggle for freedom? Will this paradise in Kashmir become a centre for discourse for new politics in the world. This can happen only if we look into the order of things with a creative eye. Thus, everybody is significant in this restoration of paradise upon this earth. Anybody can enter followed by a humble exit. Needless to say, that present day civilization is a human journey directed by series of wars in the past. A simple soldier's helmet with a hole functions as a readymade on the pedestal that mocks the whole machinery of war. Both the fear of 'war' and 'the war' is the greatest controller of human beings, and therefore, the greatest manufacturer of 'readymades' both visible and psychological. This is perhaps , why there is no one to tell us what actually happens in a war. And whatever is there in the form of a literature and art, is so insufficient that we are tempted to repeat it again. So the question is how to abandon the violence, or throw it out as trash, so that it becomes READYMADE. It is a desire Warmongers have still not granted the status of WASTE to WAR which could have enabled it to enter ART and our understanding of ready-made, which is politics. One needs an impulse to return to the dead, to lift the discarded, to realize the potential of a trash, which was hidden earlier. Great philosophers, saints, musicians, poets did the same by speaking on themes on peace and love. But as they say, who cares. It will be naïve on my part if I expect them to abandon war projects suddenly. So these days, one can notice, how the guerrilla war techniques unnerve the ruling elites who like real war games. I presume so. One can talk about their success in Nepal where the King ( 'Right winged' Lord Vishnu ) has been compelled to abandon his throne. But we have to be careful about the pitfalls of imitations. Only sheer creativity in our approach to ready-made-as-paradise can function purposefully. It is a desire. DESIRE has uniquely helped the human beings to shape the politics around herself/himself. If the signs have lost control over the rapid transactions taking place between signifiers and signified it is because DESIRE has achieved the status of TRUTH to guide the humanity to some future destination. The images, signs, symbols function endlessly only where the desire is struggling to come out from previous modes of oppression. If to curb the desire is the agenda of religion, the capitalist's agenda has been to invent some territories and control it. Not surprising that without the active understanding of sexuality, here, we are hardly able to begin a discourse on mysticism even, which is cherished by neo-feminists and artists alike. Although with variations, this approach to DESIRE is oriental in design and has its own powerful thought mechanisms of the past, which we constantly revisit as readymade(s), as and when we are stripped bare by the capitalists and religious bigotry. One instantly thinks about Meera Bai while reading Luce Irigaray who talks about feminist mysticism "autonomous", "remain within herself", and "communicate and return home". What is home ? Here, one-ready-made-home, somewhere, upon this earth and beyond. 14th century Kashmiri mystic saint poetess, Lal Ded says that I am crossing a big sea in a boat with the support of an un-spun thread. I feel death approaching me, I yearn to go back to home. My exile and all the earlier exiles are demanding an instant transformation. There is a death wish, which one needs to internalize if one finds some readiness to enter the signifier of a 'readmade' in discourse. At that moment, the readymade however will cease to behave as readymade, even, as Derrida suggests in the 'writing out of frame'. This all begins with the notion that body in fact has a frame but it always crosses its own territory to merge with the other's territory. The merging is Desire. Love, ( he) watching this game of territory merging from a closer distance, too gives in, to acclaim the mystic qualities to immortalize the core human spirit. That is ontology as well. In our socio-political set up we have endlessly encroached upon the territories of the other. That is our history of tears which we have written but sparingly. The saddest part of it is that we keep on inventing newer and newer 'others' to tighten our grip on 'power'. Here, Indian society is unfortunately riddled with a tragic continuity of caste system which justifies oppression in the name of religion. The struggle of Dalits is on, and no saner person on earth can deny their right to dignity and social elevation on the basis of equal distribution of resources. Please note that Dalit assertion has been non-violent, with some success, and the credit goes to Dr. Ambedkar whose thoughts emerged from the non-ritualistic Buddhism. Also, note that recent success of Tibetian protests against Chinese aggression and occupation is also because of creative means that are non-violent. How to measure the achievement is entirely another question. So, is non-violence a readymade which we can re-enter? But again the saddest part of it that that we keep on discovering newer forms of Dalits to tighten our grip on power. If we consider that an artists, a poet, a musician an actor is a Dalit in that sense, then the first Dalit is The TREE, voiceless, and therefore, with out power. So we need to cut thousands and thousands of trees to make a sports happening in 2010 common wealth games in Delhi. ( I talked about Artists and poets as Dalits, because that breed is visible only when they are bought by the corporate(s), otherwise where is the artists or a poet ? ). This happened alongwith the removal of lakhs of poor labourers and migrants living on the Yamuna River bank. The river in Delhi is already dead. Dead in the living, and a return to life, that is our reality… So what is to be done. Can these freedom struggle movement become creative in their pursuits and abandon violence. There must be a way out to achieve the goals. If there is a will, there must be some possibility which they have need to explore. The trouble is that this violence in the present form is strengthening the hands of those who are at the helm of affairs. So, the movements meant for realizing goals turn into excuses for the State to suppress the same lot in the name of Law and Order. So there has to be some rethinking on struggles based on conventional stands which will keep on rolling lethargically unless some fresh thought is inserted at the core. Let us take an example. Kashmiri Pandit Sangarash Samiti (KPSS), Sanjay Tickoo who said that Kashmir is a "disputed territory" . "Law says that if the number of persons who rejected to vote exceeds the number of persons who cast their votes, the polling gets cancelled. This could be used as a referendum against India in international forums, if Kashmiri leaders know it," he said, adding, "He will make people aware about the law, as part of election boycott campaign." Now, I am wondering why this idea has not come from Hurriyat party itself. We know whenever an election is held in Kashmir, all the protest ( militant ) parties in Kashmir strictly demand a complete bund from traders and office goers. The people fear them, and abandon their trade and duties. Now this new kind of thinking can make a real change in the valley, if there is a real awakening within the people of Kashmir, people should know what a struggle demands from them. The 'shahadat' sacrifice written with blood is violence. So, can a freedom movement become a 'readymade'. How, and with what changes in their agenda. Can environment and freedom of thought become part of their manifestos. If yes, then this 'inder salim' stuff too can join a freedom struggle in the changed format. Sufism has all the ingredients of a radical 'thought' if politicized creatively. That too is desire. I quote Michel Foucalut " As the archaeology of our thought easily shows, man is an invention of recent date. And one perhaps nearing its end" , and with some optimism to that, i also quote Nund Rishi / Sheikh Noor-u-din Noorani ( sheikh-ul-alam), the saint poet in Kashmir who once said, " as long as there are forests, there is food". This slogan which is widely used by different agencies in Kashmir to highlight the environmental awareness too can be internalized for some real effects. I am wondering about the communication gap between those who love freedom ( Azadi ) and those who love environment. I guess, that can happen only if the separatists and gun wielding people club the issues to create a new agenda, a new politics, a new art, a new awareness for a new life… The slogan can be Sazrah, Pazrah te Azadi. ( Simplicity, truth and freedom ) Love is -- From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sun Sep 7 00:59:10 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 00:59:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0809061222r5ed5472bobc8768f09ca08a4@mail.gmail.com> References: <821912.19661.qm@web57211.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <6353c690809030754n46e01c85va5267b772467649f@mail.gmail.com> <13df7c120809052249j449f2d1ahdbf3c72236d07f8b@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809060001o1e15116dkb2b0502462d8bd5f@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690809060744w1aab3fb8sa79fd383ca18f25a@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70809060848l9401fcdledbad1da01dfb823@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70809061140n3f24f95cpf5ff5953a49217c@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809061222r5ed5472bobc8768f09ca08a4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70809061229n44e9f372i200d4250bf79a3ca@mail.gmail.com> Aarti, Since you r NOBODY in Kashmir issue, you re irrelevant when it comes to discussing the issues and the personalities involved. And I wonder why Inder Ji does not respect himself by suffixing Balasaheb or Advani Ji with Sahib. I know Murtaza and Yasin Malik better than they know themselves and to know why I know so much about these liars ...you better know me. Pawan On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 12:52 AM, Aarti Sethi wrote: > Pawan, > > How is working with a brussel's based organisation a statement about > someone's credibility? Is a job being a "paid agent'? Then we are all "paid > agents" of someone or the other. The kashmir affairs website says quite > clearly that it is a non-funded organisation. If you know something the rest > of us don't, then maybe you should share it with the list. Otherwise your > attack on Murtaza makes no sense whatsoever. > > > Aarti > >> >> >> >> On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 9:18 PM, inder salim wrote: >> >> > Dear Rashneek >> > >> > some times back Mr. Kshmendra said something similar to me, >> > >> > " you deserve to be ignored " >> > >> > and now it is you who said it to Shuddha. >> > >> > I beleive, anybody who had developed a dislike for a particular person >> > may simply prese the botton ' delete' >> > >> > it is too easy. >> > because to express the anger on the list is worst than even 2+2=5. >> > >> > now, coming back to the basic question of 'Land and Freedom in >> > Kashmir' as seen in the present and beyond: >> > >> > We all know what is the the stand of an Nationlaist Indian. There is >> > nothing new, What you are saying is no differnt from Man Mohan Singh >> > ji, our PM. >> > >> > But if the religion of all Kashmiris is ' AZADI then how to convert >> > them all into other religion which is Indian Nationalism in this case. >> > >> > I think it is very simple. Army and police and other reasoning has >> > not helped us. >> > I too would like to see a change of heart in kashmir. but, after 1990 >> > that possiblity looks now remote. Whatever the reasons... >> > >> > Yes, Kashmiri pandits have a legal claim in the valley, but that can >> > be the part of a real discussion, as and when it happens between the >> > representatives of all the inhabitants of the disputed territory. >> > >> > Now disturbes my personally, is that the fact that the Hindu Right >> > wing has politically appropriated the whole intellectual worth of >> > Kashmiri pandits. which is not different from Jamat-i-Islami's effort >> > to represent the whole of AZADI in kashmir. Kashmiri pandits need to >> > write about it boldly. And if there is none, they one Advani-cum-Modi >> > is enough to represent them. That will be unfortunate. >> > >> > We all know how people in kahsmir are handling this issue. Everything >> > is hazy, but we have recently witnessed how Geelani sahib had to >> > retract from his claim of total representation. So similarly you too >> > need to think that every kashmniri pandit is not necessarly a >> > VHP/BJP/BajrangDal/ShivSanik lover. Let us respect the possiblity. >> > >> > then that will amount to 2+2=4 >> > >> > with love >> > is >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Just press the delete button, anything that you consider >> > On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 8:14 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul < >> kauladityaraj at gmail.com> >> > wrote: >> > > Dear Aarti, >> > > >> > > You are so right. We just can't ignore Shuddha's posts on this forum. >> He >> > > needs to be corrected from time to time, hence, we just can't remain >> > silent. >> > > >> > > >> > > Be careful Aarti.Disinformation spread can be dangerous. >> > > >> > > Warm Regards, >> > > Aditya Raj Kaul >> > > >> > > On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 12:31 PM, Aarti Sethi >> > wrote: >> > > >> > >> Really? Is that so? In which case every post shuddha writes, rife >> with >> > >> inaccuracies and and ignorance, should immediately get a response >> from >> > you >> > >> setting the record straight. Instead, what we witness is a deafening >> > >> silence. Be careful and intelligent about whom you choose as your >> > >> adversaries Rashneek. And I think you are well aware of whose posts >> are >> > >> generally ignored on this list and it certainly isn't Shuddha. >> > >> >> > >> regards >> > >> Aarti >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 11:19 AM, rashneek kher >> > wrote: >> > >> >> > >>> All that notwithstanding, Shuddha's knowledge and understanding of >> > either >> > >>> history or politics is of Kashmir is so poor or so full of >> inaccuries >> > >>> (intentional as well ignorant) that it is time we start ignoring his >> > posts >> > >>> on Kashmir. >> > >>> >> > >>> Regards >> > >>> >> > >>> Rashneek >> > >>> >> > >>> On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 8:24 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul < >> > kauladityaraj at gmail.com >> > >>> >wrote: >> > >>> >> > >>> > And, In a recent lecture in Jamia University, he was no different. >> > >>> > Advocating pan-Islamist movement in Kashmir. >> > >>> > >> > >>> > On 9/3/08, Lalit Ambardar wrote: >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > > It is not surprising.AG Noorani is a known sympathiser of the >> > Kashmiri >> > >>> > pan >> > >>> > > Islamists & their cause. He ran a campaign series in support of >> > the >> > >>> > > separatists in HT for years .The very fact that Noorani has >> chosen >> > to >> > >>> > call >> > >>> > > Jammuites as 'communal forces' & 'parivar' & the accord itself >> as >> > >>> > > 'gunah-e-bey lazzat' & describe those who attempt to seek "azadi >> > -bara >> > >>> -e >> > >>> > > -Islam" as 'victims' says it all. >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > > Noorani once went overboard in " don't be fence-sitters " (HT >> New >> > >>> > Delhi/May >> > >>> > > 8, 2007) in his appreciation of Sayad Sallahudin of HM & the >> > >>> al-Qeada >> > >>> > > affiliate LeT. In a bizarre coincidence , the day LeT chief >> > allegedly >> > >>> > > assured some Gen. Patankar of his willingness to come to India >> for >> > >>> talks >> > >>> > > (...????....) as claimed by Noorani in the article , that very >> day >> > >>> Hafeez >> > >>> > > Sayad confessed to the reporters in Islamabad about the >> existence >> > of >> > >>> > > terrorist infrastructure in Pakistan & declared his resolve to >> > carry >> > >>> on >> > >>> > the >> > >>> > > 'jihad' to its logical conclusion (Ref. TNN/ Times of India, >> > DEL/May8' >> > >>> > 07/ >> > >>> > > page no.13). >> > >>> > > LA >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > > > Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 03:55:11 -0700> From: >> > kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com >> > >>> > >> > >>> > To: >> > >>> > > shuddha at sarai.net> CC: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: >> > >>> [Reader-list] >> > >>> > > Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord> > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > >> > >>> >> > >> http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1 >> > >>> > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> > > > > --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta < >> shuddha at sarai.net> >> > >>> > wrote:> >> > >>> > > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Subject: Re: >> > >>> > > [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath >> Accord> >> > To: >> > >>> > > "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > Cc: "Sarai list" < >> > >>> > > reader-list at sarai.net>> Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, >> 4:07 >> > PM> >> > >>> > >> > >>> > > Dear all,> > The link to the Noorani article in the Greater >> Kashmir >> > >>> > > Newspaper in > my earlier post got inadvertently truncated. Here >> is >> > >>> the >> > >>> > > correct link.> > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp? >> > >> > >>> > > Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> > Thanks, Tilak Upadhyay for >> > pointing >> > >>> this >> > >>> > > out.> > best,> > Shuddha> > On 03-Sep-08, at 3:16 PM, >> Shuddhabrata >> > >>> > Sengupta >> > >>> > > wrote: Dear all> > > Dear All,> >> > An unusual intensity of >> hunger >> > >>> for >> > >>> > land >> > >>> > > unites corporations, state> > agencies and shrine boards in >> India. >> > >>> > Captains >> > >>> > > of Industry,> > politicians and land hungry divines seem to be >> more >> > >>> > > interested in> > acrage than in anything else. The Mahabharata >> > >>> mentions >> > >>> > the >> > >>> > > burning of> > the Khandava forest to appease a hungry god, >> > >>> inaugurating a >> > >>> > > long> > history of burnt and erased forests and commons. It >> appears >> > as >> > >>> it >> > >>> > > we> > are surrounded now by 'hungry gods'. The Khandava-daha >> > >>> continues.> >> > >>> > >> >> > >>> > > > Be it Chengara (thanks, Anivar Aravind for keeping us updated >> > about> >> > >>> > >> > >>> > the >> > >>> > > land struggle in Kerala, where the ruling CPI(M) led Left Front> >> > >> > is >> > >>> > intent >> > >>> > > on displacing indigenous communities from their land), or> > >> Singur >> > >>> > (where >> > >>> > > again, the ruling CPI(M) wants to gift land 'free'> to a> > >> > gigantic >> > >>> > > corporation or Amarnath, - the issues - remain the same -> > to >> do >> > >>> with >> > >>> > > state mediated acquisition of land, and the sequestering> > of >> > either >> > >>> > > cultivator's land, or a natural commons into some form of> > >> > 'gated' >> > >>> and >> > >>> > > 'fenced' land.> >> > There has been some premature media spin >> > around >> > >>> the >> > >>> > > 'accord' that> has> > been reached with the Shree Amarnath Yatra >> > >>> > Sangharsh >> > >>> > > Samiti based in> > Jammu. On the face of it, the accord appears >> to >> > >>> grant >> > >>> > a >> > >>> > > limited usage> > right to the Shree Amarnath Shrine Board. On >> > closer >> > >>> > reading >> > >>> > > of the> > text however, it becomes evident that the terms of >> this >> > >>> > 'accord'> >> > >>> > > are> > actually even more invasive than was the case with the >> > >>> substance >> > >>> > of> >> > >>> > > > the original gubernatorial 'land transfer' order in May.> >> > >> I >> > am >> > >>> > > enclosing below - an article by A. G. Noorani, a well known> > >> > legal >> > >>> > > historian and practitioner of constitutional law, titled> > 'An >> > >>> Immoral >> > >>> > and >> > >>> > > Illegal Accord' which was published in the Greater> > Kashmir >> > >>> newspaper >> > >>> > > today. It is available on line at -> > >> > >>> > > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?> > >> > >>> > > Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> >> > Noorani carefully reads the >> > terms >> > >>> of >> > >>> > the >> > >>> > > Amarnath Accord in this> > article. As I had pointed out before >> on >> > >>> this >> > >>> > list >> > >>> > > (in my second post> > (dated 15th August, 2008) in the thread - >> > 'Gun >> > >>> > Salutes >> > >>> > > for August> > 15' in response to Sonia Jabbar and Aditya Raj >> Kaul - >> > >>> the >> > >>> > > anger in> > Kashmir has a lot to do with the arbitrary >> acquisition >> > of >> > >>> > land - >> > >>> > > I> > had shown, using state government figures, how the >> equivalent >> > of >> > >>> > one> > >> > >>> > > in ten fruit orchards can be said to be under the occupation of >> > the> > >> > >>> > Armed >> > >>> > > Forces. The 'Amarnath Land Transfer' issue needs to be seen> in> >> > >> > >>> this >> > >>> > > context.> >> > As long as that anger (regarding the alienation >> of >> > >>> land) >> > >>> > is >> > >>> > > not> > addressed, the people of Kashmir will have no reason, in >> my> >> > > >> > >>> > > estimation, to think of themselves as anything but under a >> brutal >> > and> >> > >>> > >> > >>> > > unrelenting occupation. The current 'Amarnath Accord' in my >> view,> >> > > >> > >>> > worsens >> > >>> > > the situation, and can alienate the people of Kashmir (for> > >> the >> > >>> reasons >> > >>> > > that Noorani underlines below) even more. As such, it can> > >> only >> > be >> > >>> > viewed >> > >>> > > as yet another provocation, yet another disaster, in> > the long >> > and >> > >>> > > undistinguished record of the Government of India's> > tragic >> > >>> blundering >> > >>> > on >> > >>> > > Kashmir. It cannot but prove to be divisive in a> > situation >> that >> > >>> > urgently >> > >>> > > requires the opposite.> >> > regards> >> > Shuddha> >> > >> > >>> > > >> > ====================================================================== >> > >>> > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > > ==> > =======================> >> > An Immoral and Illegal >> Accord> >> > > >> > >>> > Greater >> > >>> > > Kashmir, September 03, 2008> > A G NOORANI> >> > Srinagar, Sep >> 2: >> > The >> > >>> > accord >> > >>> > > between the Jammu and Kashmir government> > and the Shri >> Amarnath >> > >>> Yatra >> > >>> > > Sangharsh Samiti on 31 August is far> > worse than the >> government's >> > >>> order >> > >>> > > only three months earlier on 26> > May. It grants the SAYSS >> > >>> concessions >> > >>> > > beyond what the May order did.> > It is one-sided and marks an >> > abject >> > >>> > > surrender to violence, blockade> > and to communal forces. The >> > >>> > differences >> > >>> > > between the order and accord> > are glaring. Here is a list:> >> >> > >> > 1. >> > >>> The >> > >>> > > order was made pursuant to a decision on 20 May by the cabinet> >> > >> > in >> > >>> > which >> > >>> > > both Jammu and Kashmir were represented. The accord> > >> completely >> > >>> ignores >> > >>> > > Kashmir where the land is to be given. Jammu alone> > was >> > represented. >> > >>> A >> > >>> > > week earlier, there was a clampdown in the Valley> > and top >> > leaders >> > >>> were >> > >>> > > arrested.> >> > 2. Even the controversial order nowhere used the >> > word >> > >>> > > "exclusive".> > The SAYSS felt so emboldened as to demand it and >> > >>> threaten >> > >>> > to >> > >>> > > wreck> > the deal if it was not conceded. The government yielded >> in >> > >>> the >> > >>> > > early> > hours of 31 August. Para 6A says that the Government >> > "shall >> > >>> set >> > >>> > > aside> > for use by Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board exclusively the >> > land >> > >>> in> >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > > Baltal and Domail". This order unknown anywhere in the world is> >> > >> > >>> > cloaked >> > >>> > > under a lie by calling it "traditionally under use for the> > >> > annual >> > >>> > yatra >> > >>> > > purpose". The traditional route for over a century is> > the >> > Pahalgam >> > >>> > route. >> > >>> > > The Baltal route is a recent demand. It was> > regarded by the >> Army >> > >>> and >> > >>> > > Nitish Sengupta Report as dangerous. It is> > also unnecessary >> if >> > the >> > >>> > limit >> > >>> > > of yatris set by the Report (1 lakh) is> > observed.> >> > 3. >> This >> > >>> > violates >> > >>> > > the citizen's fundamental right under Art. 19 (1) D> > to move >> > freely >> > >>> > > throughout India. The demand of exclusivity was not> > made even >> in >> > >>> May >> > >>> > 2008 >> > >>> > > or in decades earlier. It is pure communal> > aggression using >> the >> > >>> yatra >> > >>> > for >> > >>> > > political demonstration not religious> > piety.> >> > 4. The >> > duration >> > >>> of >> > >>> > use >> > >>> > > is widened to cover pre and post yatra period.> > Para 6 C first >> > says >> > >>> > that >> > >>> > > the land will be used "for the duration of> > the yatra" >> including >> > the >> > >>> > > period of preparations and winding up. But> > the very next para >> > has >> > >>> > these >> > >>> > > sinister words: "The aforesaid land> > shall be used according >> to >> > the >> > >>> > > Board's requirements from time to> > time, including for the >> > >>> following". >> > >>> > > There follow 9 measures including> > construction, setting up of >> > the >> > >>> > sheds >> > >>> > > and shops etc. These can be> > done even beyond the yatra period >> > "from >> > >>> > time >> > >>> > > to time" and "according> > to the Board's requirements"; may be >> all >> > >>> the >> > >>> > year >> > >>> > > around.> >> > 5. Para 8 of the order insisted that the land >> "shall >> > >>> > return" >> > >>> > > to the> > State. This is dropped in the accord. This >> accomplishes >> > S.K. >> > >>> > > Sinha's> > objective— permanent use the year round.> >> > 6. >> Also >> > >>> dropped >> > >>> > > totally is Para 4 on payment for user.> >> > 7. Dropped too is >> Para >> > 6. >> > >>> An >> > >>> > > undertaking of "foolproof measures> > against water pollution >> and >> > Para >> > >>> 7 >> > >>> > on >> > >>> > > payment of fine for damage to> > the forest. There is a pious >> > >>> provision >> > >>> > in >> > >>> > > accord Para 6 C (ix) among> > the objectives of land user; >> namely >> > >>> > > "undertaking measures relating to> > … preservation of ecology" >> > etc. >> > >>> > Breach >> > >>> > > entails no fine.> >> > 8. The order of 26 May was rescinded on 1 >> > July. >> > >>> > The >> > >>> > > accord will> > require a fresh order to implement it. By itself >> the >> > >>> > accord >> > >>> > > has no> > legal force. Section 2(a) of the J&K Forest >> > (Conservation) >> > >>> Act >> > >>> > > 1997> > says "the Government shall not, except on a resolution >> of >> > the >> > >>> > > Council> > of Ministers based on the advice of the Advisory >> > >>> Committee"> > >> > >>> > > constituted under the Act "make any order directing that any >> > forest> > >> > >>> > land >> > >>> > > or any portion thereof may be used for any non-forest purpose".> >> > >> > The >> > >>> > > earlier phrase "Council of ministers" merely was revised by an> >> > >> > >>> > amendment >> > >>> > > in 2001 and the Forest Advisory Committee's advice was> > added >> and >> > >>> made >> > >>> > > mandatory. "Council of Ministers" is specific. It is> > >> different >> > from >> > >>> > "J&K >> > >>> > > Government" whose powers vest now in the> governor> > alone. The >> > law >> > >>> > > intentionally provides the resolution as a safeguard.> > This >> > Council >> > >>> can >> > >>> > > come into existence only after the next elections.> > In any >> case >> > the >> > >>> > Forest >> > >>> > > Advisory Committees advice on 12 July 2007> > cannot apply to >> this >> > new >> > >>> > > accord which must be vetted afresh by that> > Committee. It was >> > given >> > >>> > before >> > >>> > > the Supreme Court's final judgment in> > the T M Godavarman case >> on >> > 23 >> > >>> > > November 2007 which lays down the law> > and makes important >> > >>> observations >> > >>> > on >> > >>> > > balancing development with> > protection of environment. Failure >> to >> > >>> > consider >> > >>> > > it vitiates the> > decision. Precisely based on >> misrepresentation >> > of >> > >>> > opinion >> > >>> > > of the> > deputy CM Muzaffar Hussain Beg and advocate general >> Altaf >> > >>> Naik >> > >>> > > both> > of which were given in entirely difference cases.> >> > >> The >> > >>> > accord >> > >>> > > lacks legal efficacy as well as moral and political> > >> legitimacy. >> > Any >> > >>> > order >> > >>> > > in its implementation will be void in law. It> > is a pity that >> the >> > >>> state >> > >>> > > should bend all rules to buy peace with> > communal forces >> > including >> > >>> > promise >> > >>> > > to consider compensation for law-> > breakers. What of >> compensation >> > to >> > >>> > the >> > >>> > > Valley for the blockade? The> > parivar in Jammu has already >> begun >> > >>> asking >> > >>> > > for more. The Government> > has not bought peace but trouble. It >> is >> > >>> > > gunah-e-bey lazzat (sin> > without any taste.)> >> > If the >> state >> > can >> > >>> > thus >> > >>> > > bend its knees before the Sangh parivar on an> > issue like >> this, >> > what >> > >>> > hopes >> > >>> > > of justice can Kashmiris entertain when> > it comes to restoring >> > the >> > >>> > raped >> > >>> > > Article 370 to a status of worth and> > respect?> >> > END> >> > >> > >>> > > >> > ====================================================================== >> > >>> > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > > ==> > =======================> >> >> >> > >> > >>> > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an >> open >> > >>> > discussion >> > >>> > > list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To >> > >>> > subscribe: >> > >>> > > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >> subscribe >> > in >> > >>> the >> > >>> > > subject header.> > To unsubscribe: >> > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List >> > archive: >> > >>> < >> > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > Shuddhabrata >> > >>> Sengupta> >> > >>> > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS> Raqs Media Collective> >> > shuddha at sarai.net >> > >>> > >> > >>> > > www.sarai.net> www.raqsmediacollective.net> > > >> > >>> > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open >> > >>> > discussion >> > >>> > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To >> > subscribe: >> > >>> > send >> > >>> > > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in> >> the >> > >>> subject >> > >>> > > header.> To unsubscribe: >> > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List >> > archive: < >> > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > > > >> > >>> > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open >> > >>> > discussion >> > >>> > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To >> > subscribe: >> > >>> > send >> > >>> > > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the >> > >>> subject >> > >>> > > header.> To unsubscribe: >> > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List >> > archive: < >> > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >>> > > >> _________________________________________________________________ >> > >>> > > Want to explore the world? Visit MSN Travel for the best deals. >> > >>> > > http://in.msn.com/coxandkings >> > >>> > > _________________________________________ >> > >>> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > >>> > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > >>> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >> > >>> > > subscribe in the subject header. >> > >>> > > To unsubscribe: >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > >>> > > List archive: >> > >>> > _________________________________________ >> > >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > >>> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > >>> > To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> -- >> > >>> Rashneek Kher >> > >>> Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten Human Tragedy >> > >>> http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com >> > >>> http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com >> > >>> _________________________________________ >> > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > >>> Critiques & Collaborations >> > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > >>> subscribe in the subject header. >> > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >>> >> > >> >> > >> >> > > _________________________________________ >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > >> > http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sun Sep 7 01:20:56 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 01:20:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0809061222r5ed5472bobc8768f09ca08a4@mail.gmail.com> References: <821912.19661.qm@web57211.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <6353c690809030754n46e01c85va5267b772467649f@mail.gmail.com> <13df7c120809052249j449f2d1ahdbf3c72236d07f8b@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809060001o1e15116dkb2b0502462d8bd5f@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690809060744w1aab3fb8sa79fd383ca18f25a@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70809060848l9401fcdledbad1da01dfb823@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70809061140n3f24f95cpf5ff5953a49217c@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809061222r5ed5472bobc8768f09ca08a4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70809061250u6955d992mf2b0e23aed0f6d4d@mail.gmail.com> On Feb 8 ., 2001 Murtaza wrote >>>>.almost all the militants who went > to pakistan in 1989 became top militants and it was only during the early 90 that the common kashmiris ie muslims came to know about the possiblity of becoming militants. how on earth you knew it, when the fact is that even when the recruitment was at its peak in 90s, not even the police knew what was actually happening. people never told kashmiri pandits, because of the fact they were considered mukhbirs. whether they were or not is a totally different subject. however, one thing has not changed yet. ie. you still believe that the propaganda is the best way. but my dear friend, it is not. you need to grow up as a community to understand that. > Aarti , And Murtaza is falling in the propaganda . A chameleon who is now spreading false stories about Kashmiri Hindus only to get exposed. That is what is speciality about ppl of Majority in Kashmir and Brijbehra in Particular [ Musti Sayed is from BrijBehra ]. One one fine day he claims only 209 Kashmiri Pandits were killed in Kashmir by Islamic terrorists as against 30000 killed . Next day he claims 150000 muslims were killed and after 3 hours claims only 100000 muslims were killed. I wondwer why your intellectualism is sawed on a machine to question him. Pawan On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 12:52 AM, Aarti Sethi wrote: > Pawan, > > How is working with a brussel's based organisation a statement about > someone's credibility? Is a job being a "paid agent'? Then we are all "paid > agents" of someone or the other. The kashmir affairs website says quite > clearly that it is a non-funded organisation. If you know something the rest > of us don't, then maybe you should share it with the list. Otherwise your > attack on Murtaza makes no sense whatsoever. > > > Aarti > >> >> >> >> On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 9:18 PM, inder salim wrote: >> >> > Dear Rashneek >> > >> > some times back Mr. Kshmendra said something similar to me, >> > >> > " you deserve to be ignored " >> > >> > and now it is you who said it to Shuddha. >> > >> > I beleive, anybody who had developed a dislike for a particular person >> > may simply prese the botton ' delete' >> > >> > it is too easy. >> > because to express the anger on the list is worst than even 2+2=5. >> > >> > now, coming back to the basic question of 'Land and Freedom in >> > Kashmir' as seen in the present and beyond: >> > >> > We all know what is the the stand of an Nationlaist Indian. There is >> > nothing new, What you are saying is no differnt from Man Mohan Singh >> > ji, our PM. >> > >> > But if the religion of all Kashmiris is ' AZADI then how to convert >> > them all into other religion which is Indian Nationalism in this case. >> > >> > I think it is very simple. Army and police and other reasoning has >> > not helped us. >> > I too would like to see a change of heart in kashmir. but, after 1990 >> > that possiblity looks now remote. Whatever the reasons... >> > >> > Yes, Kashmiri pandits have a legal claim in the valley, but that can >> > be the part of a real discussion, as and when it happens between the >> > representatives of all the inhabitants of the disputed territory. >> > >> > Now disturbes my personally, is that the fact that the Hindu Right >> > wing has politically appropriated the whole intellectual worth of >> > Kashmiri pandits. which is not different from Jamat-i-Islami's effort >> > to represent the whole of AZADI in kashmir. Kashmiri pandits need to >> > write about it boldly. And if there is none, they one Advani-cum-Modi >> > is enough to represent them. That will be unfortunate. >> > >> > We all know how people in kahsmir are handling this issue. Everything >> > is hazy, but we have recently witnessed how Geelani sahib had to >> > retract from his claim of total representation. So similarly you too >> > need to think that every kashmniri pandit is not necessarly a >> > VHP/BJP/BajrangDal/ShivSanik lover. Let us respect the possiblity. >> > >> > then that will amount to 2+2=4 >> > >> > with love >> > is >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Just press the delete button, anything that you consider >> > On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 8:14 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul < >> kauladityaraj at gmail.com> >> > wrote: >> > > Dear Aarti, >> > > >> > > You are so right. We just can't ignore Shuddha's posts on this forum. >> He >> > > needs to be corrected from time to time, hence, we just can't remain >> > silent. >> > > >> > > >> > > Be careful Aarti.Disinformation spread can be dangerous. >> > > >> > > Warm Regards, >> > > Aditya Raj Kaul >> > > >> > > On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 12:31 PM, Aarti Sethi >> > wrote: >> > > >> > >> Really? Is that so? In which case every post shuddha writes, rife >> with >> > >> inaccuracies and and ignorance, should immediately get a response >> from >> > you >> > >> setting the record straight. Instead, what we witness is a deafening >> > >> silence. Be careful and intelligent about whom you choose as your >> > >> adversaries Rashneek. And I think you are well aware of whose posts >> are >> > >> generally ignored on this list and it certainly isn't Shuddha. >> > >> >> > >> regards >> > >> Aarti >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 11:19 AM, rashneek kher >> > wrote: >> > >> >> > >>> All that notwithstanding, Shuddha's knowledge and understanding of >> > either >> > >>> history or politics is of Kashmir is so poor or so full of >> inaccuries >> > >>> (intentional as well ignorant) that it is time we start ignoring his >> > posts >> > >>> on Kashmir. >> > >>> >> > >>> Regards >> > >>> >> > >>> Rashneek >> > >>> >> > >>> On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 8:24 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul < >> > kauladityaraj at gmail.com >> > >>> >wrote: >> > >>> >> > >>> > And, In a recent lecture in Jamia University, he was no different. >> > >>> > Advocating pan-Islamist movement in Kashmir. >> > >>> > >> > >>> > On 9/3/08, Lalit Ambardar wrote: >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > > It is not surprising.AG Noorani is a known sympathiser of the >> > Kashmiri >> > >>> > pan >> > >>> > > Islamists & their cause. He ran a campaign series in support of >> > the >> > >>> > > separatists in HT for years .The very fact that Noorani has >> chosen >> > to >> > >>> > call >> > >>> > > Jammuites as 'communal forces' & 'parivar' & the accord itself >> as >> > >>> > > 'gunah-e-bey lazzat' & describe those who attempt to seek "azadi >> > -bara >> > >>> -e >> > >>> > > -Islam" as 'victims' says it all. >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > > Noorani once went overboard in " don't be fence-sitters " (HT >> New >> > >>> > Delhi/May >> > >>> > > 8, 2007) in his appreciation of Sayad Sallahudin of HM & the >> > >>> al-Qeada >> > >>> > > affiliate LeT. In a bizarre coincidence , the day LeT chief >> > allegedly >> > >>> > > assured some Gen. Patankar of his willingness to come to India >> for >> > >>> talks >> > >>> > > (...????....) as claimed by Noorani in the article , that very >> day >> > >>> Hafeez >> > >>> > > Sayad confessed to the reporters in Islamabad about the >> existence >> > of >> > >>> > > terrorist infrastructure in Pakistan & declared his resolve to >> > carry >> > >>> on >> > >>> > the >> > >>> > > 'jihad' to its logical conclusion (Ref. TNN/ Times of India, >> > DEL/May8' >> > >>> > 07/ >> > >>> > > page no.13). >> > >>> > > LA >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > > > Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 03:55:11 -0700> From: >> > kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com >> > >>> > >> > >>> > To: >> > >>> > > shuddha at sarai.net> CC: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: >> > >>> [Reader-list] >> > >>> > > Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord> > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > >> > >>> >> > >> http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1 >> > >>> > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> > > > > --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta < >> shuddha at sarai.net> >> > >>> > wrote:> >> > >>> > > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Subject: Re: >> > >>> > > [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath >> Accord> >> > To: >> > >>> > > "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > Cc: "Sarai list" < >> > >>> > > reader-list at sarai.net>> Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, >> 4:07 >> > PM> >> > >>> > >> > >>> > > Dear all,> > The link to the Noorani article in the Greater >> Kashmir >> > >>> > > Newspaper in > my earlier post got inadvertently truncated. Here >> is >> > >>> the >> > >>> > > correct link.> > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp? >> > >> > >>> > > Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> > Thanks, Tilak Upadhyay for >> > pointing >> > >>> this >> > >>> > > out.> > best,> > Shuddha> > On 03-Sep-08, at 3:16 PM, >> Shuddhabrata >> > >>> > Sengupta >> > >>> > > wrote: Dear all> > > Dear All,> >> > An unusual intensity of >> hunger >> > >>> for >> > >>> > land >> > >>> > > unites corporations, state> > agencies and shrine boards in >> India. >> > >>> > Captains >> > >>> > > of Industry,> > politicians and land hungry divines seem to be >> more >> > >>> > > interested in> > acrage than in anything else. The Mahabharata >> > >>> mentions >> > >>> > the >> > >>> > > burning of> > the Khandava forest to appease a hungry god, >> > >>> inaugurating a >> > >>> > > long> > history of burnt and erased forests and commons. It >> appears >> > as >> > >>> it >> > >>> > > we> > are surrounded now by 'hungry gods'. The Khandava-daha >> > >>> continues.> >> > >>> > >> >> > >>> > > > Be it Chengara (thanks, Anivar Aravind for keeping us updated >> > about> >> > >>> > >> > >>> > the >> > >>> > > land struggle in Kerala, where the ruling CPI(M) led Left Front> >> > >> > is >> > >>> > intent >> > >>> > > on displacing indigenous communities from their land), or> > >> Singur >> > >>> > (where >> > >>> > > again, the ruling CPI(M) wants to gift land 'free'> to a> > >> > gigantic >> > >>> > > corporation or Amarnath, - the issues - remain the same -> > to >> do >> > >>> with >> > >>> > > state mediated acquisition of land, and the sequestering> > of >> > either >> > >>> > > cultivator's land, or a natural commons into some form of> > >> > 'gated' >> > >>> and >> > >>> > > 'fenced' land.> >> > There has been some premature media spin >> > around >> > >>> the >> > >>> > > 'accord' that> has> > been reached with the Shree Amarnath Yatra >> > >>> > Sangharsh >> > >>> > > Samiti based in> > Jammu. On the face of it, the accord appears >> to >> > >>> grant >> > >>> > a >> > >>> > > limited usage> > right to the Shree Amarnath Shrine Board. On >> > closer >> > >>> > reading >> > >>> > > of the> > text however, it becomes evident that the terms of >> this >> > >>> > 'accord'> >> > >>> > > are> > actually even more invasive than was the case with the >> > >>> substance >> > >>> > of> >> > >>> > > > the original gubernatorial 'land transfer' order in May.> >> > >> I >> > am >> > >>> > > enclosing below - an article by A. G. Noorani, a well known> > >> > legal >> > >>> > > historian and practitioner of constitutional law, titled> > 'An >> > >>> Immoral >> > >>> > and >> > >>> > > Illegal Accord' which was published in the Greater> > Kashmir >> > >>> newspaper >> > >>> > > today. It is available on line at -> > >> > >>> > > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?> > >> > >>> > > Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> >> > Noorani carefully reads the >> > terms >> > >>> of >> > >>> > the >> > >>> > > Amarnath Accord in this> > article. As I had pointed out before >> on >> > >>> this >> > >>> > list >> > >>> > > (in my second post> > (dated 15th August, 2008) in the thread - >> > 'Gun >> > >>> > Salutes >> > >>> > > for August> > 15' in response to Sonia Jabbar and Aditya Raj >> Kaul - >> > >>> the >> > >>> > > anger in> > Kashmir has a lot to do with the arbitrary >> acquisition >> > of >> > >>> > land - >> > >>> > > I> > had shown, using state government figures, how the >> equivalent >> > of >> > >>> > one> > >> > >>> > > in ten fruit orchards can be said to be under the occupation of >> > the> > >> > >>> > Armed >> > >>> > > Forces. The 'Amarnath Land Transfer' issue needs to be seen> in> >> > >> > >>> this >> > >>> > > context.> >> > As long as that anger (regarding the alienation >> of >> > >>> land) >> > >>> > is >> > >>> > > not> > addressed, the people of Kashmir will have no reason, in >> my> >> > > >> > >>> > > estimation, to think of themselves as anything but under a >> brutal >> > and> >> > >>> > >> > >>> > > unrelenting occupation. The current 'Amarnath Accord' in my >> view,> >> > > >> > >>> > worsens >> > >>> > > the situation, and can alienate the people of Kashmir (for> > >> the >> > >>> reasons >> > >>> > > that Noorani underlines below) even more. As such, it can> > >> only >> > be >> > >>> > viewed >> > >>> > > as yet another provocation, yet another disaster, in> > the long >> > and >> > >>> > > undistinguished record of the Government of India's> > tragic >> > >>> blundering >> > >>> > on >> > >>> > > Kashmir. It cannot but prove to be divisive in a> > situation >> that >> > >>> > urgently >> > >>> > > requires the opposite.> >> > regards> >> > Shuddha> >> > >> > >>> > > >> > ====================================================================== >> > >>> > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > > ==> > =======================> >> > An Immoral and Illegal >> Accord> >> > > >> > >>> > Greater >> > >>> > > Kashmir, September 03, 2008> > A G NOORANI> >> > Srinagar, Sep >> 2: >> > The >> > >>> > accord >> > >>> > > between the Jammu and Kashmir government> > and the Shri >> Amarnath >> > >>> Yatra >> > >>> > > Sangharsh Samiti on 31 August is far> > worse than the >> government's >> > >>> order >> > >>> > > only three months earlier on 26> > May. It grants the SAYSS >> > >>> concessions >> > >>> > > beyond what the May order did.> > It is one-sided and marks an >> > abject >> > >>> > > surrender to violence, blockade> > and to communal forces. The >> > >>> > differences >> > >>> > > between the order and accord> > are glaring. Here is a list:> >> >> > >> > 1. >> > >>> The >> > >>> > > order was made pursuant to a decision on 20 May by the cabinet> >> > >> > in >> > >>> > which >> > >>> > > both Jammu and Kashmir were represented. The accord> > >> completely >> > >>> ignores >> > >>> > > Kashmir where the land is to be given. Jammu alone> > was >> > represented. >> > >>> A >> > >>> > > week earlier, there was a clampdown in the Valley> > and top >> > leaders >> > >>> were >> > >>> > > arrested.> >> > 2. Even the controversial order nowhere used the >> > word >> > >>> > > "exclusive".> > The SAYSS felt so emboldened as to demand it and >> > >>> threaten >> > >>> > to >> > >>> > > wreck> > the deal if it was not conceded. The government yielded >> in >> > >>> the >> > >>> > > early> > hours of 31 August. Para 6A says that the Government >> > "shall >> > >>> set >> > >>> > > aside> > for use by Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board exclusively the >> > land >> > >>> in> >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > > Baltal and Domail". This order unknown anywhere in the world is> >> > >> > >>> > cloaked >> > >>> > > under a lie by calling it "traditionally under use for the> > >> > annual >> > >>> > yatra >> > >>> > > purpose". The traditional route for over a century is> > the >> > Pahalgam >> > >>> > route. >> > >>> > > The Baltal route is a recent demand. It was> > regarded by the >> Army >> > >>> and >> > >>> > > Nitish Sengupta Report as dangerous. It is> > also unnecessary >> if >> > the >> > >>> > limit >> > >>> > > of yatris set by the Report (1 lakh) is> > observed.> >> > 3. >> This >> > >>> > violates >> > >>> > > the citizen's fundamental right under Art. 19 (1) D> > to move >> > freely >> > >>> > > throughout India. The demand of exclusivity was not> > made even >> in >> > >>> May >> > >>> > 2008 >> > >>> > > or in decades earlier. It is pure communal> > aggression using >> the >> > >>> yatra >> > >>> > for >> > >>> > > political demonstration not religious> > piety.> >> > 4. The >> > duration >> > >>> of >> > >>> > use >> > >>> > > is widened to cover pre and post yatra period.> > Para 6 C first >> > says >> > >>> > that >> > >>> > > the land will be used "for the duration of> > the yatra" >> including >> > the >> > >>> > > period of preparations and winding up. But> > the very next para >> > has >> > >>> > these >> > >>> > > sinister words: "The aforesaid land> > shall be used according >> to >> > the >> > >>> > > Board's requirements from time to> > time, including for the >> > >>> following". >> > >>> > > There follow 9 measures including> > construction, setting up of >> > the >> > >>> > sheds >> > >>> > > and shops etc. These can be> > done even beyond the yatra period >> > "from >> > >>> > time >> > >>> > > to time" and "according> > to the Board's requirements"; may be >> all >> > >>> the >> > >>> > year >> > >>> > > around.> >> > 5. Para 8 of the order insisted that the land >> "shall >> > >>> > return" >> > >>> > > to the> > State. This is dropped in the accord. This >> accomplishes >> > S.K. >> > >>> > > Sinha's> > objective— permanent use the year round.> >> > 6. >> Also >> > >>> dropped >> > >>> > > totally is Para 4 on payment for user.> >> > 7. Dropped too is >> Para >> > 6. >> > >>> An >> > >>> > > undertaking of "foolproof measures> > against water pollution >> and >> > Para >> > >>> 7 >> > >>> > on >> > >>> > > payment of fine for damage to> > the forest. There is a pious >> > >>> provision >> > >>> > in >> > >>> > > accord Para 6 C (ix) among> > the objectives of land user; >> namely >> > >>> > > "undertaking measures relating to> > … preservation of ecology" >> > etc. >> > >>> > Breach >> > >>> > > entails no fine.> >> > 8. The order of 26 May was rescinded on 1 >> > July. >> > >>> > The >> > >>> > > accord will> > require a fresh order to implement it. By itself >> the >> > >>> > accord >> > >>> > > has no> > legal force. Section 2(a) of the J&K Forest >> > (Conservation) >> > >>> Act >> > >>> > > 1997> > says "the Government shall not, except on a resolution >> of >> > the >> > >>> > > Council> > of Ministers based on the advice of the Advisory >> > >>> Committee"> > >> > >>> > > constituted under the Act "make any order directing that any >> > forest> > >> > >>> > land >> > >>> > > or any portion thereof may be used for any non-forest purpose".> >> > >> > The >> > >>> > > earlier phrase "Council of ministers" merely was revised by an> >> > >> > >>> > amendment >> > >>> > > in 2001 and the Forest Advisory Committee's advice was> > added >> and >> > >>> made >> > >>> > > mandatory. "Council of Ministers" is specific. It is> > >> different >> > from >> > >>> > "J&K >> > >>> > > Government" whose powers vest now in the> governor> > alone. The >> > law >> > >>> > > intentionally provides the resolution as a safeguard.> > This >> > Council >> > >>> can >> > >>> > > come into existence only after the next elections.> > In any >> case >> > the >> > >>> > Forest >> > >>> > > Advisory Committees advice on 12 July 2007> > cannot apply to >> this >> > new >> > >>> > > accord which must be vetted afresh by that> > Committee. It was >> > given >> > >>> > before >> > >>> > > the Supreme Court's final judgment in> > the T M Godavarman case >> on >> > 23 >> > >>> > > November 2007 which lays down the law> > and makes important >> > >>> observations >> > >>> > on >> > >>> > > balancing development with> > protection of environment. Failure >> to >> > >>> > consider >> > >>> > > it vitiates the> > decision. Precisely based on >> misrepresentation >> > of >> > >>> > opinion >> > >>> > > of the> > deputy CM Muzaffar Hussain Beg and advocate general >> Altaf >> > >>> Naik >> > >>> > > both> > of which were given in entirely difference cases.> >> > >> The >> > >>> > accord >> > >>> > > lacks legal efficacy as well as moral and political> > >> legitimacy. >> > Any >> > >>> > order >> > >>> > > in its implementation will be void in law. It> > is a pity that >> the >> > >>> state >> > >>> > > should bend all rules to buy peace with> > communal forces >> > including >> > >>> > promise >> > >>> > > to consider compensation for law-> > breakers. What of >> compensation >> > to >> > >>> > the >> > >>> > > Valley for the blockade? The> > parivar in Jammu has already >> begun >> > >>> asking >> > >>> > > for more. The Government> > has not bought peace but trouble. It >> is >> > >>> > > gunah-e-bey lazzat (sin> > without any taste.)> >> > If the >> state >> > can >> > >>> > thus >> > >>> > > bend its knees before the Sangh parivar on an> > issue like >> this, >> > what >> > >>> > hopes >> > >>> > > of justice can Kashmiris entertain when> > it comes to restoring >> > the >> > >>> > raped >> > >>> > > Article 370 to a status of worth and> > respect?> >> > END> >> > >> > >>> > > >> > ====================================================================== >> > >>> > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > > ==> > =======================> >> >> >> > >> > >>> > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an >> open >> > >>> > discussion >> > >>> > > list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To >> > >>> > subscribe: >> > >>> > > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >> subscribe >> > in >> > >>> the >> > >>> > > subject header.> > To unsubscribe: >> > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List >> > archive: >> > >>> < >> > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > Shuddhabrata >> > >>> Sengupta> >> > >>> > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS> Raqs Media Collective> >> > shuddha at sarai.net >> > >>> > >> > >>> > > www.sarai.net> www.raqsmediacollective.net> > > >> > >>> > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open >> > >>> > discussion >> > >>> > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To >> > subscribe: >> > >>> > send >> > >>> > > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in> >> the >> > >>> subject >> > >>> > > header.> To unsubscribe: >> > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List >> > archive: < >> > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > > > >> > >>> > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open >> > >>> > discussion >> > >>> > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To >> > subscribe: >> > >>> > send >> > >>> > > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the >> > >>> subject >> > >>> > > header.> To unsubscribe: >> > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List >> > archive: < >> > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >>> > > >> _________________________________________________________________ >> > >>> > > Want to explore the world? Visit MSN Travel for the best deals. >> > >>> > > http://in.msn.com/coxandkings >> > >>> > > _________________________________________ >> > >>> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > >>> > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > >>> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >> > >>> > > subscribe in the subject header. >> > >>> > > To unsubscribe: >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > >>> > > List archive: >> > >>> > _________________________________________ >> > >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > >>> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > >>> > To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> -- >> > >>> Rashneek Kher >> > >>> Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten Human Tragedy >> > >>> http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com >> > >>> http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com >> > >>> _________________________________________ >> > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > >>> Critiques & Collaborations >> > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > >>> subscribe in the subject header. >> > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >>> >> > >> >> > >> >> > > _________________________________________ >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > >> > http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Sun Sep 7 01:58:52 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 01:58:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70809061229n44e9f372i200d4250bf79a3ca@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690809030754n46e01c85va5267b772467649f@mail.gmail.com> <13df7c120809052249j449f2d1ahdbf3c72236d07f8b@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809060001o1e15116dkb2b0502462d8bd5f@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690809060744w1aab3fb8sa79fd383ca18f25a@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70809060848l9401fcdledbad1da01dfb823@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70809061140n3f24f95cpf5ff5953a49217c@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809061222r5ed5472bobc8768f09ca08a4@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70809061229n44e9f372i200d4250bf79a3ca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0809061328w7dcbedf3v78bef0a75f987401@mail.gmail.com> Dear Pawan, I cannot stop laughing...why so glum chum? why so serious? should we put a smile on your face?....oh dear dear me!...since I'm such a nobody, i simply can't understand what riles you so much?...tell you what Pawan, why don't you compile a list of people whom you think are authorized to speak on Kashmir and circulate it....you can list criteria, level of commitment, idealogical, political, sexual affiliation, food and beverage preferences...and since you are so knowledgable, how come the only people who pay you any attention on this list is your little echo-chamber of three? my intellectualism is not "sawed on a machine' as you so charmingly put it. I only asked what this had to do with brussels because in the inimitable style you have made your own in which non sequiters are supposed to stand in for arguments, his association with kashmiraffairs was supposed to indicate that what he says he nonsense. This is exactly the same tack you adopted with Noorani's article. Since you have nothing to say about his analysis, you chose instead to call him a pan-islamist supporter, as if this by itself, counteracts the substance of his piece. So be quiet Pawan. And don't be so quick to tell people what they can and cannot speak about. Instead, pay more attention to what you say, and maybe you will not spout the reams of rubbish we have all become so used to deleting without a second's glance. best as always Aarti On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 12:59 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Aarti, > Since you r NOBODY in Kashmir issue, you re irrelevant when it comes to > discussing the issues and the personalities involved. > > And I wonder why Inder Ji does not respect himself by suffixing Balasaheb > or Advani Ji with Sahib. > > I know Murtaza and Yasin Malik better than they know themselves and to know > why I know so much about these liars ...you better know me. > > Pawan > > > > On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 12:52 AM, Aarti Sethi wrote: > >> Pawan, >> >> How is working with a brussel's based organisation a statement about >> someone's credibility? Is a job being a "paid agent'? Then we are all "paid >> agents" of someone or the other. The kashmir affairs website says quite >> clearly that it is a non-funded organisation. If you know something the rest >> of us don't, then maybe you should share it with the list. Otherwise your >> attack on Murtaza makes no sense whatsoever. >> >> >> Aarti >> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 9:18 PM, inder salim >>> wrote: >>> >>> > Dear Rashneek >>> > >>> > some times back Mr. Kshmendra said something similar to me, >>> > >>> > " you deserve to be ignored " >>> > >>> > and now it is you who said it to Shuddha. >>> > >>> > I beleive, anybody who had developed a dislike for a particular person >>> > may simply prese the botton ' delete' >>> > >>> > it is too easy. >>> > because to express the anger on the list is worst than even 2+2=5. >>> > >>> > now, coming back to the basic question of 'Land and Freedom in >>> > Kashmir' as seen in the present and beyond: >>> > >>> > We all know what is the the stand of an Nationlaist Indian. There is >>> > nothing new, What you are saying is no differnt from Man Mohan Singh >>> > ji, our PM. >>> > >>> > But if the religion of all Kashmiris is ' AZADI then how to convert >>> > them all into other religion which is Indian Nationalism in this case. >>> > >>> > I think it is very simple. Army and police and other reasoning has >>> > not helped us. >>> > I too would like to see a change of heart in kashmir. but, after 1990 >>> > that possiblity looks now remote. Whatever the reasons... >>> > >>> > Yes, Kashmiri pandits have a legal claim in the valley, but that can >>> > be the part of a real discussion, as and when it happens between the >>> > representatives of all the inhabitants of the disputed territory. >>> > >>> > Now disturbes my personally, is that the fact that the Hindu Right >>> > wing has politically appropriated the whole intellectual worth of >>> > Kashmiri pandits. which is not different from Jamat-i-Islami's effort >>> > to represent the whole of AZADI in kashmir. Kashmiri pandits need to >>> > write about it boldly. And if there is none, they one Advani-cum-Modi >>> > is enough to represent them. That will be unfortunate. >>> > >>> > We all know how people in kahsmir are handling this issue. Everything >>> > is hazy, but we have recently witnessed how Geelani sahib had to >>> > retract from his claim of total representation. So similarly you too >>> > need to think that every kashmniri pandit is not necessarly a >>> > VHP/BJP/BajrangDal/ShivSanik lover. Let us respect the possiblity. >>> > >>> > then that will amount to 2+2=4 >>> > >>> > with love >>> > is >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Just press the delete button, anything that you consider >>> > On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 8:14 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul < >>> kauladityaraj at gmail.com> >>> > wrote: >>> > > Dear Aarti, >>> > > >>> > > You are so right. We just can't ignore Shuddha's posts on this forum. >>> He >>> > > needs to be corrected from time to time, hence, we just can't remain >>> > silent. >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > Be careful Aarti.Disinformation spread can be dangerous. >>> > > >>> > > Warm Regards, >>> > > Aditya Raj Kaul >>> > > >>> > > On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 12:31 PM, Aarti Sethi >>> > wrote: >>> > > >>> > >> Really? Is that so? In which case every post shuddha writes, rife >>> with >>> > >> inaccuracies and and ignorance, should immediately get a response >>> from >>> > you >>> > >> setting the record straight. Instead, what we witness is a deafening >>> > >> silence. Be careful and intelligent about whom you choose as your >>> > >> adversaries Rashneek. And I think you are well aware of whose posts >>> are >>> > >> generally ignored on this list and it certainly isn't Shuddha. >>> > >> >>> > >> regards >>> > >> Aarti >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 11:19 AM, rashneek kher >>> > wrote: >>> > >> >>> > >>> All that notwithstanding, Shuddha's knowledge and understanding of >>> > either >>> > >>> history or politics is of Kashmir is so poor or so full of >>> inaccuries >>> > >>> (intentional as well ignorant) that it is time we start ignoring >>> his >>> > posts >>> > >>> on Kashmir. >>> > >>> >>> > >>> Regards >>> > >>> >>> > >>> Rashneek >>> > >>> >>> > >>> On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 8:24 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul < >>> > kauladityaraj at gmail.com >>> > >>> >wrote: >>> > >>> >>> > >>> > And, In a recent lecture in Jamia University, he was no >>> different. >>> > >>> > Advocating pan-Islamist movement in Kashmir. >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > On 9/3/08, Lalit Ambardar wrote: >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > It is not surprising.AG Noorani is a known sympathiser of the >>> > Kashmiri >>> > >>> > pan >>> > >>> > > Islamists & their cause. He ran a campaign series in support >>> of >>> > the >>> > >>> > > separatists in HT for years .The very fact that Noorani has >>> chosen >>> > to >>> > >>> > call >>> > >>> > > Jammuites as 'communal forces' & 'parivar' & the accord itself >>> as >>> > >>> > > 'gunah-e-bey lazzat' & describe those who attempt to seek >>> "azadi >>> > -bara >>> > >>> -e >>> > >>> > > -Islam" as 'victims' says it all. >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > Noorani once went overboard in " don't be fence-sitters " (HT >>> New >>> > >>> > Delhi/May >>> > >>> > > 8, 2007) in his appreciation of Sayad Sallahudin of HM & the >>> > >>> al-Qeada >>> > >>> > > affiliate LeT. In a bizarre coincidence , the day LeT chief >>> > allegedly >>> > >>> > > assured some Gen. Patankar of his willingness to come to India >>> for >>> > >>> talks >>> > >>> > > (...????....) as claimed by Noorani in the article , that very >>> day >>> > >>> Hafeez >>> > >>> > > Sayad confessed to the reporters in Islamabad about the >>> existence >>> > of >>> > >>> > > terrorist infrastructure in Pakistan & declared his resolve to >>> > carry >>> > >>> on >>> > >>> > the >>> > >>> > > 'jihad' to its logical conclusion (Ref. TNN/ Times of India, >>> > DEL/May8' >>> > >>> > 07/ >>> > >>> > > page no.13). >>> > >>> > > LA >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > > Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 03:55:11 -0700> From: >>> > kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > To: >>> > >>> > > shuddha at sarai.net> CC: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: >>> > >>> [Reader-list] >>> > >>> > > Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord> > > >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >>> > >>> http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1 >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > > > >>> > >>> > > > > --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta < >>> shuddha at sarai.net> >>> > >>> > wrote:> >>> > >>> > > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Subject: >>> Re: >>> > >>> > > [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath >>> Accord> >>> > To: >>> > >>> > > "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > Cc: "Sarai list" >>> < >>> > >>> > > reader-list at sarai.net>> Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, >>> 4:07 >>> > PM> >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > > Dear all,> > The link to the Noorani article in the Greater >>> Kashmir >>> > >>> > > Newspaper in > my earlier post got inadvertently truncated. >>> Here is >>> > >>> the >>> > >>> > > correct link.> > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp? >>> > >>> > >>> > > Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> > Thanks, Tilak Upadhyay for >>> > pointing >>> > >>> this >>> > >>> > > out.> > best,> > Shuddha> > On 03-Sep-08, at 3:16 PM, >>> Shuddhabrata >>> > >>> > Sengupta >>> > >>> > > wrote: Dear all> > > Dear All,> >> > An unusual intensity of >>> hunger >>> > >>> for >>> > >>> > land >>> > >>> > > unites corporations, state> > agencies and shrine boards in >>> India. >>> > >>> > Captains >>> > >>> > > of Industry,> > politicians and land hungry divines seem to be >>> more >>> > >>> > > interested in> > acrage than in anything else. The Mahabharata >>> > >>> mentions >>> > >>> > the >>> > >>> > > burning of> > the Khandava forest to appease a hungry god, >>> > >>> inaugurating a >>> > >>> > > long> > history of burnt and erased forests and commons. It >>> appears >>> > as >>> > >>> it >>> > >>> > > we> > are surrounded now by 'hungry gods'. The Khandava-daha >>> > >>> continues.> >>> > >>> > >> >>> > >>> > > > Be it Chengara (thanks, Anivar Aravind for keeping us updated >>> > about> >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > the >>> > >>> > > land struggle in Kerala, where the ruling CPI(M) led Left >>> Front> > >>> > is >>> > >>> > intent >>> > >>> > > on displacing indigenous communities from their land), or> > >>> Singur >>> > >>> > (where >>> > >>> > > again, the ruling CPI(M) wants to gift land 'free'> to a> > >>> > gigantic >>> > >>> > > corporation or Amarnath, - the issues - remain the same -> > to >>> do >>> > >>> with >>> > >>> > > state mediated acquisition of land, and the sequestering> > of >>> > either >>> > >>> > > cultivator's land, or a natural commons into some form of> > >>> > 'gated' >>> > >>> and >>> > >>> > > 'fenced' land.> >> > There has been some premature media spin >>> > around >>> > >>> the >>> > >>> > > 'accord' that> has> > been reached with the Shree Amarnath >>> Yatra >>> > >>> > Sangharsh >>> > >>> > > Samiti based in> > Jammu. On the face of it, the accord appears >>> to >>> > >>> grant >>> > >>> > a >>> > >>> > > limited usage> > right to the Shree Amarnath Shrine Board. On >>> > closer >>> > >>> > reading >>> > >>> > > of the> > text however, it becomes evident that the terms of >>> this >>> > >>> > 'accord'> >>> > >>> > > are> > actually even more invasive than was the case with the >>> > >>> substance >>> > >>> > of> >>> > >>> > > > the original gubernatorial 'land transfer' order in May.> >> >>> > I >>> > am >>> > >>> > > enclosing below - an article by A. G. Noorani, a well known> > >>> > legal >>> > >>> > > historian and practitioner of constitutional law, titled> > 'An >>> > >>> Immoral >>> > >>> > and >>> > >>> > > Illegal Accord' which was published in the Greater> > Kashmir >>> > >>> newspaper >>> > >>> > > today. It is available on line at -> > >>> > >>> > > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?> > >>> > >>> > > Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> >> > Noorani carefully reads the >>> > terms >>> > >>> of >>> > >>> > the >>> > >>> > > Amarnath Accord in this> > article. As I had pointed out before >>> on >>> > >>> this >>> > >>> > list >>> > >>> > > (in my second post> > (dated 15th August, 2008) in the thread - >>> > 'Gun >>> > >>> > Salutes >>> > >>> > > for August> > 15' in response to Sonia Jabbar and Aditya Raj >>> Kaul - >>> > >>> the >>> > >>> > > anger in> > Kashmir has a lot to do with the arbitrary >>> acquisition >>> > of >>> > >>> > land - >>> > >>> > > I> > had shown, using state government figures, how the >>> equivalent >>> > of >>> > >>> > one> > >>> > >>> > > in ten fruit orchards can be said to be under the occupation of >>> > the> > >>> > >>> > Armed >>> > >>> > > Forces. The 'Amarnath Land Transfer' issue needs to be seen> >>> in> > >>> > >>> this >>> > >>> > > context.> >> > As long as that anger (regarding the alienation >>> of >>> > >>> land) >>> > >>> > is >>> > >>> > > not> > addressed, the people of Kashmir will have no reason, in >>> my> >>> > > >>> > >>> > > estimation, to think of themselves as anything but under a >>> brutal >>> > and> >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > > unrelenting occupation. The current 'Amarnath Accord' in my >>> view,> >>> > > >>> > >>> > worsens >>> > >>> > > the situation, and can alienate the people of Kashmir (for> > >>> the >>> > >>> reasons >>> > >>> > > that Noorani underlines below) even more. As such, it can> > >>> only >>> > be >>> > >>> > viewed >>> > >>> > > as yet another provocation, yet another disaster, in> > the >>> long >>> > and >>> > >>> > > undistinguished record of the Government of India's> > tragic >>> > >>> blundering >>> > >>> > on >>> > >>> > > Kashmir. It cannot but prove to be divisive in a> > situation >>> that >>> > >>> > urgently >>> > >>> > > requires the opposite.> >> > regards> >> > Shuddha> >> > >>> > >>> > > >>> > ====================================================================== >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > ==> > =======================> >> > An Immoral and Illegal >>> Accord> >>> > > >>> > >>> > Greater >>> > >>> > > Kashmir, September 03, 2008> > A G NOORANI> >> > Srinagar, Sep >>> 2: >>> > The >>> > >>> > accord >>> > >>> > > between the Jammu and Kashmir government> > and the Shri >>> Amarnath >>> > >>> Yatra >>> > >>> > > Sangharsh Samiti on 31 August is far> > worse than the >>> government's >>> > >>> order >>> > >>> > > only three months earlier on 26> > May. It grants the SAYSS >>> > >>> concessions >>> > >>> > > beyond what the May order did.> > It is one-sided and marks an >>> > abject >>> > >>> > > surrender to violence, blockade> > and to communal forces. The >>> > >>> > differences >>> > >>> > > between the order and accord> > are glaring. Here is a list:> >>> >> > >>> > 1. >>> > >>> The >>> > >>> > > order was made pursuant to a decision on 20 May by the cabinet> >>> > >>> > in >>> > >>> > which >>> > >>> > > both Jammu and Kashmir were represented. The accord> > >>> completely >>> > >>> ignores >>> > >>> > > Kashmir where the land is to be given. Jammu alone> > was >>> > represented. >>> > >>> A >>> > >>> > > week earlier, there was a clampdown in the Valley> > and top >>> > leaders >>> > >>> were >>> > >>> > > arrested.> >> > 2. Even the controversial order nowhere used >>> the >>> > word >>> > >>> > > "exclusive".> > The SAYSS felt so emboldened as to demand it >>> and >>> > >>> threaten >>> > >>> > to >>> > >>> > > wreck> > the deal if it was not conceded. The government >>> yielded in >>> > >>> the >>> > >>> > > early> > hours of 31 August. Para 6A says that the Government >>> > "shall >>> > >>> set >>> > >>> > > aside> > for use by Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board exclusively >>> the >>> > land >>> > >>> in> >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > Baltal and Domail". This order unknown anywhere in the world >>> is> > >>> > >>> > cloaked >>> > >>> > > under a lie by calling it "traditionally under use for the> > >>> > annual >>> > >>> > yatra >>> > >>> > > purpose". The traditional route for over a century is> > the >>> > Pahalgam >>> > >>> > route. >>> > >>> > > The Baltal route is a recent demand. It was> > regarded by the >>> Army >>> > >>> and >>> > >>> > > Nitish Sengupta Report as dangerous. It is> > also unnecessary >>> if >>> > the >>> > >>> > limit >>> > >>> > > of yatris set by the Report (1 lakh) is> > observed.> >> > 3. >>> This >>> > >>> > violates >>> > >>> > > the citizen's fundamental right under Art. 19 (1) D> > to move >>> > freely >>> > >>> > > throughout India. The demand of exclusivity was not> > made >>> even in >>> > >>> May >>> > >>> > 2008 >>> > >>> > > or in decades earlier. It is pure communal> > aggression using >>> the >>> > >>> yatra >>> > >>> > for >>> > >>> > > political demonstration not religious> > piety.> >> > 4. The >>> > duration >>> > >>> of >>> > >>> > use >>> > >>> > > is widened to cover pre and post yatra period.> > Para 6 C >>> first >>> > says >>> > >>> > that >>> > >>> > > the land will be used "for the duration of> > the yatra" >>> including >>> > the >>> > >>> > > period of preparations and winding up. But> > the very next >>> para >>> > has >>> > >>> > these >>> > >>> > > sinister words: "The aforesaid land> > shall be used according >>> to >>> > the >>> > >>> > > Board's requirements from time to> > time, including for the >>> > >>> following". >>> > >>> > > There follow 9 measures including> > construction, setting up >>> of >>> > the >>> > >>> > sheds >>> > >>> > > and shops etc. These can be> > done even beyond the yatra >>> period >>> > "from >>> > >>> > time >>> > >>> > > to time" and "according> > to the Board's requirements"; may be >>> all >>> > >>> the >>> > >>> > year >>> > >>> > > around.> >> > 5. Para 8 of the order insisted that the land >>> "shall >>> > >>> > return" >>> > >>> > > to the> > State. This is dropped in the accord. This >>> accomplishes >>> > S.K. >>> > >>> > > Sinha's> > objective— permanent use the year round.> >> > 6. >>> Also >>> > >>> dropped >>> > >>> > > totally is Para 4 on payment for user.> >> > 7. Dropped too is >>> Para >>> > 6. >>> > >>> An >>> > >>> > > undertaking of "foolproof measures> > against water pollution >>> and >>> > Para >>> > >>> 7 >>> > >>> > on >>> > >>> > > payment of fine for damage to> > the forest. There is a pious >>> > >>> provision >>> > >>> > in >>> > >>> > > accord Para 6 C (ix) among> > the objectives of land user; >>> namely >>> > >>> > > "undertaking measures relating to> > … preservation of ecology" >>> > etc. >>> > >>> > Breach >>> > >>> > > entails no fine.> >> > 8. The order of 26 May was rescinded on >>> 1 >>> > July. >>> > >>> > The >>> > >>> > > accord will> > require a fresh order to implement it. By itself >>> the >>> > >>> > accord >>> > >>> > > has no> > legal force. Section 2(a) of the J&K Forest >>> > (Conservation) >>> > >>> Act >>> > >>> > > 1997> > says "the Government shall not, except on a resolution >>> of >>> > the >>> > >>> > > Council> > of Ministers based on the advice of the Advisory >>> > >>> Committee"> > >>> > >>> > > constituted under the Act "make any order directing that any >>> > forest> > >>> > >>> > land >>> > >>> > > or any portion thereof may be used for any non-forest >>> purpose".> > >>> > The >>> > >>> > > earlier phrase "Council of ministers" merely was revised by an> >>> > >>> > >>> > amendment >>> > >>> > > in 2001 and the Forest Advisory Committee's advice was> > added >>> and >>> > >>> made >>> > >>> > > mandatory. "Council of Ministers" is specific. It is> > >>> different >>> > from >>> > >>> > "J&K >>> > >>> > > Government" whose powers vest now in the> governor> > alone. >>> The >>> > law >>> > >>> > > intentionally provides the resolution as a safeguard.> > This >>> > Council >>> > >>> can >>> > >>> > > come into existence only after the next elections.> > In any >>> case >>> > the >>> > >>> > Forest >>> > >>> > > Advisory Committees advice on 12 July 2007> > cannot apply to >>> this >>> > new >>> > >>> > > accord which must be vetted afresh by that> > Committee. It was >>> > given >>> > >>> > before >>> > >>> > > the Supreme Court's final judgment in> > the T M Godavarman >>> case on >>> > 23 >>> > >>> > > November 2007 which lays down the law> > and makes important >>> > >>> observations >>> > >>> > on >>> > >>> > > balancing development with> > protection of environment. >>> Failure to >>> > >>> > consider >>> > >>> > > it vitiates the> > decision. Precisely based on >>> misrepresentation >>> > of >>> > >>> > opinion >>> > >>> > > of the> > deputy CM Muzaffar Hussain Beg and advocate general >>> Altaf >>> > >>> Naik >>> > >>> > > both> > of which were given in entirely difference cases.> >> > >>> The >>> > >>> > accord >>> > >>> > > lacks legal efficacy as well as moral and political> > >>> legitimacy. >>> > Any >>> > >>> > order >>> > >>> > > in its implementation will be void in law. It> > is a pity that >>> the >>> > >>> state >>> > >>> > > should bend all rules to buy peace with> > communal forces >>> > including >>> > >>> > promise >>> > >>> > > to consider compensation for law-> > breakers. What of >>> compensation >>> > to >>> > >>> > the >>> > >>> > > Valley for the blockade? The> > parivar in Jammu has already >>> begun >>> > >>> asking >>> > >>> > > for more. The Government> > has not bought peace but trouble. >>> It is >>> > >>> > > gunah-e-bey lazzat (sin> > without any taste.)> >> > If the >>> state >>> > can >>> > >>> > thus >>> > >>> > > bend its knees before the Sangh parivar on an> > issue like >>> this, >>> > what >>> > >>> > hopes >>> > >>> > > of justice can Kashmiris entertain when> > it comes to >>> restoring >>> > the >>> > >>> > raped >>> > >>> > > Article 370 to a status of worth and> > respect?> >> > END> >> >>> > >>> > >>> > > >>> > ====================================================================== >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > ==> > =======================> >> >> >> > >>> > >>> > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an >>> open >>> > >>> > discussion >>> > >>> > > list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To >>> > >>> > subscribe: >>> > >>> > > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >>> subscribe >>> > in >>> > >>> the >>> > >>> > > subject header.> > To unsubscribe: >>> > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List >>> > archive: >>> > >>> < >>> > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > Shuddhabrata >>> > >>> Sengupta> >>> > >>> > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS> Raqs Media Collective> >>> > shuddha at sarai.net >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > > www.sarai.net> www.raqsmediacollective.net> > > >>> > >>> > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open >>> > >>> > discussion >>> > >>> > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To >>> > subscribe: >>> > >>> > send >>> > >>> > > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in> >>> the >>> > >>> subject >>> > >>> > > header.> To unsubscribe: >>> > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List >>> > archive: < >>> > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > > > >>> > >>> > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open >>> > >>> > discussion >>> > >>> > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To >>> > subscribe: >>> > >>> > send >>> > >>> > > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in >>> the >>> > >>> subject >>> > >>> > > header.> To unsubscribe: >>> > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List >>> > archive: < >>> > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> > >>> > > >>> _________________________________________________________________ >>> > >>> > > Want to explore the world? Visit MSN Travel for the best deals. >>> > >>> > > http://in.msn.com/coxandkings >>> > >>> > > _________________________________________ >>> > >>> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> > >>> > > Critiques & Collaborations >>> > >>> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >>> > >>> > > subscribe in the subject header. >>> > >>> > > To unsubscribe: >>> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> > >>> > > List archive: >>> > >>> > _________________________________________ >>> > >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> > >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>> > >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >>> > >>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>> > >>> > To unsubscribe: >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> > >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> -- >>> > >>> Rashneek Kher >>> > >>> Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten Human Tragedy >>> > >>> http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com >>> > >>> http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com >>> > >>> _________________________________________ >>> > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> > >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> > >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> > >>> To unsubscribe: >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> > >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> > >>> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > > _________________________________________ >>> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> > > Critiques & Collaborations >>> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > >>> > http://indersalim.livejournal.com >>> > _________________________________________ >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> > >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >> >> > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sun Sep 7 02:11:44 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 02:11:44 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0809061328w7dcbedf3v78bef0a75f987401@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690809030754n46e01c85va5267b772467649f@mail.gmail.com> <13df7c120809052249j449f2d1ahdbf3c72236d07f8b@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809060001o1e15116dkb2b0502462d8bd5f@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690809060744w1aab3fb8sa79fd383ca18f25a@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70809060848l9401fcdledbad1da01dfb823@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70809061140n3f24f95cpf5ff5953a49217c@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809061222r5ed5472bobc8768f09ca08a4@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70809061229n44e9f372i200d4250bf79a3ca@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809061328w7dcbedf3v78bef0a75f987401@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70809061341s2c2162f9s57c8eda7a71ba2f3@mail.gmail.com> Aarti, Only those who dont have a control over their mind can not stop laughing. It is better you stop debating about Kashmir . Do you know the difference between "NavidYaar and ParvarDigaar" ? And if you dont...... it is better you send some tissue papers to Noorani...he can use them either way and leave the left over to ignorants like you and Shuddha. Don't teach me what Kashmir and the Muslims in Kashmir are. Dont teach me the secularism. I have seen my temples being destroyed. Dont teach me all the shit you read from fools like Gautam Navlakha and Aran Dhat Teri Ki Rai. I know how I had to jump out of my 2nd Floor to escape the terrorists. I know who burnt my house and today they claim to be secularist , only to be backed by ignorance and fools with half baked knowledge which is destructive. Pawan On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 1:58 AM, Aarti Sethi wrote: > Dear Pawan, > > I cannot stop laughing...why so glum chum? why so serious? should we put a > smile on your face?....oh dear dear me!...since I'm such a nobody, i simply > can't understand what riles you so much?...tell you what Pawan, why don't > you compile a list of people whom you think are authorized to speak on > Kashmir and circulate it....you can list criteria, level of commitment, > idealogical, political, sexual affiliation, food and beverage > preferences...and since you are so knowledgable, how come the only people > who pay you any attention on this list is your little echo-chamber of three? > > my intellectualism is not "sawed on a machine' as you so charmingly put it. > I only asked what this had to do with brussels because in the inimitable > style you have made your own in which non sequiters are supposed to stand in > for arguments, his association with kashmiraffairs was supposed to indicate > that what he says he nonsense. This is exactly the same tack you adopted > with Noorani's article. Since you have nothing to say about his analysis, > you chose instead to call him a pan-islamist supporter, as if this by > itself, counteracts the substance of his piece. > > So be quiet Pawan. And don't be so quick to tell people what they can and > cannot speak about. Instead, pay more attention to what you say, and maybe > you will not spout the reams of rubbish we have all become so used to > deleting without a second's glance. > > best as always > Aarti > > On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 12:59 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> Aarti, >> Since you r NOBODY in Kashmir issue, you re irrelevant when it comes to >> discussing the issues and the personalities involved. >> >> And I wonder why Inder Ji does not respect himself by suffixing Balasaheb >> or Advani Ji with Sahib. >> >> I know Murtaza and Yasin Malik better than they know themselves and to >> know why I know so much about these liars ...you better know me. >> >> Pawan >> >> >> >> On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 12:52 AM, Aarti Sethi wrote: >> >>> Pawan, >>> >>> How is working with a brussel's based organisation a statement about >>> someone's credibility? Is a job being a "paid agent'? Then we are all "paid >>> agents" of someone or the other. The kashmir affairs website says quite >>> clearly that it is a non-funded organisation. If you know something the rest >>> of us don't, then maybe you should share it with the list. Otherwise your >>> attack on Murtaza makes no sense whatsoever. >>> >>> >>> Aarti >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 9:18 PM, inder salim >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> > Dear Rashneek >>>> > >>>> > some times back Mr. Kshmendra said something similar to me, >>>> > >>>> > " you deserve to be ignored " >>>> > >>>> > and now it is you who said it to Shuddha. >>>> > >>>> > I beleive, anybody who had developed a dislike for a particular person >>>> > may simply prese the botton ' delete' >>>> > >>>> > it is too easy. >>>> > because to express the anger on the list is worst than even 2+2=5. >>>> > >>>> > now, coming back to the basic question of 'Land and Freedom in >>>> > Kashmir' as seen in the present and beyond: >>>> > >>>> > We all know what is the the stand of an Nationlaist Indian. There is >>>> > nothing new, What you are saying is no differnt from Man Mohan Singh >>>> > ji, our PM. >>>> > >>>> > But if the religion of all Kashmiris is ' AZADI then how to convert >>>> > them all into other religion which is Indian Nationalism in this case. >>>> > >>>> > I think it is very simple. Army and police and other reasoning has >>>> > not helped us. >>>> > I too would like to see a change of heart in kashmir. but, after 1990 >>>> > that possiblity looks now remote. Whatever the reasons... >>>> > >>>> > Yes, Kashmiri pandits have a legal claim in the valley, but that can >>>> > be the part of a real discussion, as and when it happens between the >>>> > representatives of all the inhabitants of the disputed territory. >>>> > >>>> > Now disturbes my personally, is that the fact that the Hindu Right >>>> > wing has politically appropriated the whole intellectual worth of >>>> > Kashmiri pandits. which is not different from Jamat-i-Islami's effort >>>> > to represent the whole of AZADI in kashmir. Kashmiri pandits need to >>>> > write about it boldly. And if there is none, they one Advani-cum-Modi >>>> > is enough to represent them. That will be unfortunate. >>>> > >>>> > We all know how people in kahsmir are handling this issue. Everything >>>> > is hazy, but we have recently witnessed how Geelani sahib had to >>>> > retract from his claim of total representation. So similarly you too >>>> > need to think that every kashmniri pandit is not necessarly a >>>> > VHP/BJP/BajrangDal/ShivSanik lover. Let us respect the possiblity. >>>> > >>>> > then that will amount to 2+2=4 >>>> > >>>> > with love >>>> > is >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Just press the delete button, anything that you consider >>>> > On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 8:14 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul < >>>> kauladityaraj at gmail.com> >>>> > wrote: >>>> > > Dear Aarti, >>>> > > >>>> > > You are so right. We just can't ignore Shuddha's posts on this >>>> forum. He >>>> > > needs to be corrected from time to time, hence, we just can't remain >>>> > silent. >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > Be careful Aarti.Disinformation spread can be dangerous. >>>> > > >>>> > > Warm Regards, >>>> > > Aditya Raj Kaul >>>> > > >>>> > > On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 12:31 PM, Aarti Sethi >>> > >>>> > wrote: >>>> > > >>>> > >> Really? Is that so? In which case every post shuddha writes, rife >>>> with >>>> > >> inaccuracies and and ignorance, should immediately get a response >>>> from >>>> > you >>>> > >> setting the record straight. Instead, what we witness is a >>>> deafening >>>> > >> silence. Be careful and intelligent about whom you choose as your >>>> > >> adversaries Rashneek. And I think you are well aware of whose posts >>>> are >>>> > >> generally ignored on this list and it certainly isn't Shuddha. >>>> > >> >>>> > >> regards >>>> > >> Aarti >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 11:19 AM, rashneek kher >>> > >>>> > wrote: >>>> > >> >>>> > >>> All that notwithstanding, Shuddha's knowledge and understanding of >>>> > either >>>> > >>> history or politics is of Kashmir is so poor or so full of >>>> inaccuries >>>> > >>> (intentional as well ignorant) that it is time we start ignoring >>>> his >>>> > posts >>>> > >>> on Kashmir. >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> Regards >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> Rashneek >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 8:24 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul < >>>> > kauladityaraj at gmail.com >>>> > >>> >wrote: >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> > And, In a recent lecture in Jamia University, he was no >>>> different. >>>> > >>> > Advocating pan-Islamist movement in Kashmir. >>>> > >>> > >>>> > >>> > On 9/3/08, Lalit Ambardar wrote: >>>> > >>> > > >>>> > >>> > > It is not surprising.AG Noorani is a known sympathiser of the >>>> > Kashmiri >>>> > >>> > pan >>>> > >>> > > Islamists & their cause. He ran a campaign series in support >>>> of >>>> > the >>>> > >>> > > separatists in HT for years .The very fact that Noorani has >>>> chosen >>>> > to >>>> > >>> > call >>>> > >>> > > Jammuites as 'communal forces' & 'parivar' & the accord itself >>>> as >>>> > >>> > > 'gunah-e-bey lazzat' & describe those who attempt to seek >>>> "azadi >>>> > -bara >>>> > >>> -e >>>> > >>> > > -Islam" as 'victims' says it all. >>>> > >>> > > >>>> > >>> > > Noorani once went overboard in " don't be fence-sitters " (HT >>>> New >>>> > >>> > Delhi/May >>>> > >>> > > 8, 2007) in his appreciation of Sayad Sallahudin of HM & the >>>> > >>> al-Qeada >>>> > >>> > > affiliate LeT. In a bizarre coincidence , the day LeT chief >>>> > allegedly >>>> > >>> > > assured some Gen. Patankar of his willingness to come to India >>>> for >>>> > >>> talks >>>> > >>> > > (...????....) as claimed by Noorani in the article , that very >>>> day >>>> > >>> Hafeez >>>> > >>> > > Sayad confessed to the reporters in Islamabad about the >>>> existence >>>> > of >>>> > >>> > > terrorist infrastructure in Pakistan & declared his resolve to >>>> > carry >>>> > >>> on >>>> > >>> > the >>>> > >>> > > 'jihad' to its logical conclusion (Ref. TNN/ Times of India, >>>> > DEL/May8' >>>> > >>> > 07/ >>>> > >>> > > page no.13). >>>> > >>> > > LA >>>> > >>> > > >>>> > >>> > > >>>> > >>> > > >>>> > >>> > > >>>> > >>> > > >>>> > >>> > > > Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 03:55:11 -0700> From: >>>> > kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com >>>> > >>> > >>>> > >>> > To: >>>> > >>> > > shuddha at sarai.net> CC: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: >>>> > >>> [Reader-list] >>>> > >>> > > Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord> > > >>>> > >>> > > >>>> > >>> > >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>>> http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1 >>>> > >>> > >>>> > >>> > > > >>>> > >>> > > > > --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta < >>>> shuddha at sarai.net> >>>> > >>> > wrote:> >>>> > >>> > > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Subject: >>>> Re: >>>> > >>> > > [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath >>>> Accord> >>>> > To: >>>> > >>> > > "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > Cc: "Sarai list" >>>> < >>>> > >>> > > reader-list at sarai.net>> Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, >>>> 4:07 >>>> > PM> >>>> > >>> > >>>> > >>> > > Dear all,> > The link to the Noorani article in the Greater >>>> Kashmir >>>> > >>> > > Newspaper in > my earlier post got inadvertently truncated. >>>> Here is >>>> > >>> the >>>> > >>> > > correct link.> > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp? >>>> > >>>> > >>> > > Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> > Thanks, Tilak Upadhyay for >>>> > pointing >>>> > >>> this >>>> > >>> > > out.> > best,> > Shuddha> > On 03-Sep-08, at 3:16 PM, >>>> Shuddhabrata >>>> > >>> > Sengupta >>>> > >>> > > wrote: Dear all> > > Dear All,> >> > An unusual intensity of >>>> hunger >>>> > >>> for >>>> > >>> > land >>>> > >>> > > unites corporations, state> > agencies and shrine boards in >>>> India. >>>> > >>> > Captains >>>> > >>> > > of Industry,> > politicians and land hungry divines seem to be >>>> more >>>> > >>> > > interested in> > acrage than in anything else. The Mahabharata >>>> > >>> mentions >>>> > >>> > the >>>> > >>> > > burning of> > the Khandava forest to appease a hungry god, >>>> > >>> inaugurating a >>>> > >>> > > long> > history of burnt and erased forests and commons. It >>>> appears >>>> > as >>>> > >>> it >>>> > >>> > > we> > are surrounded now by 'hungry gods'. The Khandava-daha >>>> > >>> continues.> >>>> > >>> > >> >>>> > >>> > > > Be it Chengara (thanks, Anivar Aravind for keeping us >>>> updated >>>> > about> >>>> > >>> > >>>> > >>> > the >>>> > >>> > > land struggle in Kerala, where the ruling CPI(M) led Left >>>> Front> > >>>> > is >>>> > >>> > intent >>>> > >>> > > on displacing indigenous communities from their land), or> > >>>> Singur >>>> > >>> > (where >>>> > >>> > > again, the ruling CPI(M) wants to gift land 'free'> to a> > >>>> > gigantic >>>> > >>> > > corporation or Amarnath, - the issues - remain the same -> > >>>> to do >>>> > >>> with >>>> > >>> > > state mediated acquisition of land, and the sequestering> > of >>>> > either >>>> > >>> > > cultivator's land, or a natural commons into some form of> > >>>> > 'gated' >>>> > >>> and >>>> > >>> > > 'fenced' land.> >> > There has been some premature media spin >>>> > around >>>> > >>> the >>>> > >>> > > 'accord' that> has> > been reached with the Shree Amarnath >>>> Yatra >>>> > >>> > Sangharsh >>>> > >>> > > Samiti based in> > Jammu. On the face of it, the accord >>>> appears to >>>> > >>> grant >>>> > >>> > a >>>> > >>> > > limited usage> > right to the Shree Amarnath Shrine Board. On >>>> > closer >>>> > >>> > reading >>>> > >>> > > of the> > text however, it becomes evident that the terms of >>>> this >>>> > >>> > 'accord'> >>>> > >>> > > are> > actually even more invasive than was the case with the >>>> > >>> substance >>>> > >>> > of> >>>> > >>> > > > the original gubernatorial 'land transfer' order in May.> >> >>>> > I >>>> > am >>>> > >>> > > enclosing below - an article by A. G. Noorani, a well known> > >>>> > legal >>>> > >>> > > historian and practitioner of constitutional law, titled> > >>>> 'An >>>> > >>> Immoral >>>> > >>> > and >>>> > >>> > > Illegal Accord' which was published in the Greater> > Kashmir >>>> > >>> newspaper >>>> > >>> > > today. It is available on line at -> > >>>> > >>> > > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?> > >>>> > >>> > > Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> >> > Noorani carefully reads >>>> the >>>> > terms >>>> > >>> of >>>> > >>> > the >>>> > >>> > > Amarnath Accord in this> > article. As I had pointed out >>>> before on >>>> > >>> this >>>> > >>> > list >>>> > >>> > > (in my second post> > (dated 15th August, 2008) in the thread >>>> - >>>> > 'Gun >>>> > >>> > Salutes >>>> > >>> > > for August> > 15' in response to Sonia Jabbar and Aditya Raj >>>> Kaul - >>>> > >>> the >>>> > >>> > > anger in> > Kashmir has a lot to do with the arbitrary >>>> acquisition >>>> > of >>>> > >>> > land - >>>> > >>> > > I> > had shown, using state government figures, how the >>>> equivalent >>>> > of >>>> > >>> > one> > >>>> > >>> > > in ten fruit orchards can be said to be under the occupation >>>> of >>>> > the> > >>>> > >>> > Armed >>>> > >>> > > Forces. The 'Amarnath Land Transfer' issue needs to be seen> >>>> in> > >>>> > >>> this >>>> > >>> > > context.> >> > As long as that anger (regarding the alienation >>>> of >>>> > >>> land) >>>> > >>> > is >>>> > >>> > > not> > addressed, the people of Kashmir will have no reason, >>>> in my> >>>> > > >>>> > >>> > > estimation, to think of themselves as anything but under a >>>> brutal >>>> > and> >>>> > >>> > >>>> > >>> > > unrelenting occupation. The current 'Amarnath Accord' in my >>>> view,> >>>> > > >>>> > >>> > worsens >>>> > >>> > > the situation, and can alienate the people of Kashmir (for> > >>>> the >>>> > >>> reasons >>>> > >>> > > that Noorani underlines below) even more. As such, it can> > >>>> only >>>> > be >>>> > >>> > viewed >>>> > >>> > > as yet another provocation, yet another disaster, in> > the >>>> long >>>> > and >>>> > >>> > > undistinguished record of the Government of India's> > tragic >>>> > >>> blundering >>>> > >>> > on >>>> > >>> > > Kashmir. It cannot but prove to be divisive in a> > situation >>>> that >>>> > >>> > urgently >>>> > >>> > > requires the opposite.> >> > regards> >> > Shuddha> >> > >>>> > >>> > > >>>> > ====================================================================== >>>> > >>> > >>>> > >>> > > >>>> > >>> > > ==> > =======================> >> > An Immoral and Illegal >>>> Accord> >>>> > > >>>> > >>> > Greater >>>> > >>> > > Kashmir, September 03, 2008> > A G NOORANI> >> > Srinagar, Sep >>>> 2: >>>> > The >>>> > >>> > accord >>>> > >>> > > between the Jammu and Kashmir government> > and the Shri >>>> Amarnath >>>> > >>> Yatra >>>> > >>> > > Sangharsh Samiti on 31 August is far> > worse than the >>>> government's >>>> > >>> order >>>> > >>> > > only three months earlier on 26> > May. It grants the SAYSS >>>> > >>> concessions >>>> > >>> > > beyond what the May order did.> > It is one-sided and marks an >>>> > abject >>>> > >>> > > surrender to violence, blockade> > and to communal forces. The >>>> > >>> > differences >>>> > >>> > > between the order and accord> > are glaring. Here is a list:> >>>> >> > >>>> > 1. >>>> > >>> The >>>> > >>> > > order was made pursuant to a decision on 20 May by the >>>> cabinet> > >>>> > in >>>> > >>> > which >>>> > >>> > > both Jammu and Kashmir were represented. The accord> > >>>> completely >>>> > >>> ignores >>>> > >>> > > Kashmir where the land is to be given. Jammu alone> > was >>>> > represented. >>>> > >>> A >>>> > >>> > > week earlier, there was a clampdown in the Valley> > and top >>>> > leaders >>>> > >>> were >>>> > >>> > > arrested.> >> > 2. Even the controversial order nowhere used >>>> the >>>> > word >>>> > >>> > > "exclusive".> > The SAYSS felt so emboldened as to demand it >>>> and >>>> > >>> threaten >>>> > >>> > to >>>> > >>> > > wreck> > the deal if it was not conceded. The government >>>> yielded in >>>> > >>> the >>>> > >>> > > early> > hours of 31 August. Para 6A says that the Government >>>> > "shall >>>> > >>> set >>>> > >>> > > aside> > for use by Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board exclusively >>>> the >>>> > land >>>> > >>> in> >>>> > >>> > > >>>> > >>> > > Baltal and Domail". This order unknown anywhere in the world >>>> is> > >>>> > >>> > cloaked >>>> > >>> > > under a lie by calling it "traditionally under use for the> > >>>> > annual >>>> > >>> > yatra >>>> > >>> > > purpose". The traditional route for over a century is> > the >>>> > Pahalgam >>>> > >>> > route. >>>> > >>> > > The Baltal route is a recent demand. It was> > regarded by the >>>> Army >>>> > >>> and >>>> > >>> > > Nitish Sengupta Report as dangerous. It is> > also unnecessary >>>> if >>>> > the >>>> > >>> > limit >>>> > >>> > > of yatris set by the Report (1 lakh) is> > observed.> >> > 3. >>>> This >>>> > >>> > violates >>>> > >>> > > the citizen's fundamental right under Art. 19 (1) D> > to move >>>> > freely >>>> > >>> > > throughout India. The demand of exclusivity was not> > made >>>> even in >>>> > >>> May >>>> > >>> > 2008 >>>> > >>> > > or in decades earlier. It is pure communal> > aggression using >>>> the >>>> > >>> yatra >>>> > >>> > for >>>> > >>> > > political demonstration not religious> > piety.> >> > 4. The >>>> > duration >>>> > >>> of >>>> > >>> > use >>>> > >>> > > is widened to cover pre and post yatra period.> > Para 6 C >>>> first >>>> > says >>>> > >>> > that >>>> > >>> > > the land will be used "for the duration of> > the yatra" >>>> including >>>> > the >>>> > >>> > > period of preparations and winding up. But> > the very next >>>> para >>>> > has >>>> > >>> > these >>>> > >>> > > sinister words: "The aforesaid land> > shall be used according >>>> to >>>> > the >>>> > >>> > > Board's requirements from time to> > time, including for the >>>> > >>> following". >>>> > >>> > > There follow 9 measures including> > construction, setting up >>>> of >>>> > the >>>> > >>> > sheds >>>> > >>> > > and shops etc. These can be> > done even beyond the yatra >>>> period >>>> > "from >>>> > >>> > time >>>> > >>> > > to time" and "according> > to the Board's requirements"; may >>>> be all >>>> > >>> the >>>> > >>> > year >>>> > >>> > > around.> >> > 5. Para 8 of the order insisted that the land >>>> "shall >>>> > >>> > return" >>>> > >>> > > to the> > State. This is dropped in the accord. This >>>> accomplishes >>>> > S.K. >>>> > >>> > > Sinha's> > objective— permanent use the year round.> >> > 6. >>>> Also >>>> > >>> dropped >>>> > >>> > > totally is Para 4 on payment for user.> >> > 7. Dropped too is >>>> Para >>>> > 6. >>>> > >>> An >>>> > >>> > > undertaking of "foolproof measures> > against water pollution >>>> and >>>> > Para >>>> > >>> 7 >>>> > >>> > on >>>> > >>> > > payment of fine for damage to> > the forest. There is a pious >>>> > >>> provision >>>> > >>> > in >>>> > >>> > > accord Para 6 C (ix) among> > the objectives of land user; >>>> namely >>>> > >>> > > "undertaking measures relating to> > … preservation of >>>> ecology" >>>> > etc. >>>> > >>> > Breach >>>> > >>> > > entails no fine.> >> > 8. The order of 26 May was rescinded on >>>> 1 >>>> > July. >>>> > >>> > The >>>> > >>> > > accord will> > require a fresh order to implement it. By >>>> itself the >>>> > >>> > accord >>>> > >>> > > has no> > legal force. Section 2(a) of the J&K Forest >>>> > (Conservation) >>>> > >>> Act >>>> > >>> > > 1997> > says "the Government shall not, except on a resolution >>>> of >>>> > the >>>> > >>> > > Council> > of Ministers based on the advice of the Advisory >>>> > >>> Committee"> > >>>> > >>> > > constituted under the Act "make any order directing that any >>>> > forest> > >>>> > >>> > land >>>> > >>> > > or any portion thereof may be used for any non-forest >>>> purpose".> > >>>> > The >>>> > >>> > > earlier phrase "Council of ministers" merely was revised by >>>> an> > >>>> > >>> > amendment >>>> > >>> > > in 2001 and the Forest Advisory Committee's advice was> > >>>> added and >>>> > >>> made >>>> > >>> > > mandatory. "Council of Ministers" is specific. It is> > >>>> different >>>> > from >>>> > >>> > "J&K >>>> > >>> > > Government" whose powers vest now in the> governor> > alone. >>>> The >>>> > law >>>> > >>> > > intentionally provides the resolution as a safeguard.> > This >>>> > Council >>>> > >>> can >>>> > >>> > > come into existence only after the next elections.> > In any >>>> case >>>> > the >>>> > >>> > Forest >>>> > >>> > > Advisory Committees advice on 12 July 2007> > cannot apply to >>>> this >>>> > new >>>> > >>> > > accord which must be vetted afresh by that> > Committee. It >>>> was >>>> > given >>>> > >>> > before >>>> > >>> > > the Supreme Court's final judgment in> > the T M Godavarman >>>> case on >>>> > 23 >>>> > >>> > > November 2007 which lays down the law> > and makes important >>>> > >>> observations >>>> > >>> > on >>>> > >>> > > balancing development with> > protection of environment. >>>> Failure to >>>> > >>> > consider >>>> > >>> > > it vitiates the> > decision. Precisely based on >>>> misrepresentation >>>> > of >>>> > >>> > opinion >>>> > >>> > > of the> > deputy CM Muzaffar Hussain Beg and advocate general >>>> Altaf >>>> > >>> Naik >>>> > >>> > > both> > of which were given in entirely difference cases.> >> >>>> > The >>>> > >>> > accord >>>> > >>> > > lacks legal efficacy as well as moral and political> > >>>> legitimacy. >>>> > Any >>>> > >>> > order >>>> > >>> > > in its implementation will be void in law. It> > is a pity >>>> that the >>>> > >>> state >>>> > >>> > > should bend all rules to buy peace with> > communal forces >>>> > including >>>> > >>> > promise >>>> > >>> > > to consider compensation for law-> > breakers. What of >>>> compensation >>>> > to >>>> > >>> > the >>>> > >>> > > Valley for the blockade? The> > parivar in Jammu has already >>>> begun >>>> > >>> asking >>>> > >>> > > for more. The Government> > has not bought peace but trouble. >>>> It is >>>> > >>> > > gunah-e-bey lazzat (sin> > without any taste.)> >> > If the >>>> state >>>> > can >>>> > >>> > thus >>>> > >>> > > bend its knees before the Sangh parivar on an> > issue like >>>> this, >>>> > what >>>> > >>> > hopes >>>> > >>> > > of justice can Kashmiris entertain when> > it comes to >>>> restoring >>>> > the >>>> > >>> > raped >>>> > >>> > > Article 370 to a status of worth and> > respect?> >> > END> >> >>>> > >>>> > >>> > > >>>> > ====================================================================== >>>> > >>> > >>>> > >>> > > >>>> > >>> > > ==> > =======================> >> >> >> > >>>> > >>> > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an >>>> open >>>> > >>> > discussion >>>> > >>> > > list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > >>>> To >>>> > >>> > subscribe: >>>> > >>> > > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >>>> subscribe >>>> > in >>>> > >>> the >>>> > >>> > > subject header.> > To unsubscribe: >>>> > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List >>>> > archive: >>>> > >>> < >>>> > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > >>>> Shuddhabrata >>>> > >>> Sengupta> >>>> > >>> > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS> Raqs Media Collective> >>>> > shuddha at sarai.net >>>> > >>> > >>>> > >>> > > www.sarai.net> www.raqsmediacollective.net> > > >>>> > >>> > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an >>>> open >>>> > >>> > discussion >>>> > >>> > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To >>>> > subscribe: >>>> > >>> > send >>>> > >>> > > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in> >>>> the >>>> > >>> subject >>>> > >>> > > header.> To unsubscribe: >>>> > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List >>>> > archive: < >>>> > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > > > >>>> > >>> > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an >>>> open >>>> > >>> > discussion >>>> > >>> > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To >>>> > subscribe: >>>> > >>> > send >>>> > >>> > > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in >>>> the >>>> > >>> subject >>>> > >>> > > header.> To unsubscribe: >>>> > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List >>>> > archive: < >>>> > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> > >>> > > >>>> _________________________________________________________________ >>>> > >>> > > Want to explore the world? Visit MSN Travel for the best >>>> deals. >>>> > >>> > > http://in.msn.com/coxandkings >>>> > >>> > > _________________________________________ >>>> > >>> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> > >>> > > Critiques & Collaborations >>>> > >>> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >>>> > >>> > > subscribe in the subject header. >>>> > >>> > > To unsubscribe: >>>> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> > >>> > > List archive: >>>> > >>> > _________________________________________ >>>> > >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> > >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>>> > >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith >>>> > >>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>>> > >>> > To unsubscribe: >>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> > >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ >>>> > >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> -- >>>> > >>> Rashneek Kher >>>> > >>> Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten Human Tragedy >>>> > >>> http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com >>>> > >>> http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com >>>> > >>> _________________________________________ >>>> > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> > >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> > >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> > >>> To unsubscribe: >>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> > >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> > >>> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > > _________________________________________ >>>> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> > > Critiques & Collaborations >>>> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>>> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > -- >>>> > >>>> > http://indersalim.livejournal.com >>>> > _________________________________________ >>>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> > >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>> >>> >> > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sun Sep 7 02:15:24 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 02:15:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Hurriyat Leaders - Hiring Contract killers to silence rivals in Kashmir ! Message-ID: <6b79f1a70809061345s13d186c2vae75abb4ab6d9a4f@mail.gmail.com> http://thekashmir.wordpress.com/2008/09/06/hurriyat-leaders-hiring-contract-killers-to-silence-rivals-in-kashmir/ From pkray11 at gmail.com Sun Sep 7 02:41:45 2008 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 02:41:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Delhi University gets ABVP president after 8 years/ reader-list Digest, Vol 62, Issue 35. Message-ID: <98f331e00809061411t758f471cq8ba213c5ee2608c9@mail.gmail.com> Dear Mr Aditya Raj Kaul, I am not at all surprised at your happiness on the victory of ABVP's presidential candidate in DUSU elections 2008. An activist like you of a casteist organization like United Students, a clone of Youth for Equality, will be only happy if a communal organization wins an election. And your position on communalism is known to the readers of the list. Those who have not heard about the outfit called United Students, I want to tell them that this anti-reservation entity was formed in 2006 alongwith notorious Youth for Equality to oppose reservation in the educational institution. United Students contested DUSU elections in 2006 and 2007 and for better, it does not exist anymore. Mr Aditya Raj Kaul led a delegation of United Students to the President of India on May 4, 2006 to oppose the reservations. Interestingly, he is elated at the ABVP's victory after contesting against it for two years. I am sure that he and his fellow anti-reservationists worked for ABVP this time which 'supported' reservations. Will Mr Kaul explain the deal between these two outfits? As far as the DUSU results are concerned, it is another issue to be talked seperately. Prakash From tilaku at gmail.com Sun Sep 7 02:49:01 2008 From: tilaku at gmail.com (Tilak Upadhyay) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 02:49:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmir-Tanks on busy market squares - Harsh Mander In-Reply-To: <41ce1a9a0809061406q67b1e7dfnfac9a047b690bd75@mail.gmail.com> References: <939715.9586.qm@web57213.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <41ce1a9a0809061406q67b1e7dfnfac9a047b690bd75@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: January 1992. Five of us took a trip to the Seven Sisters. A long time tourist-dream. Heard about some 'disturbances' but reckoned that we had sufficient and reliable contacts in all the north-eastern states. We were in our early teens at Kolkata during 1968-1972 and remembered how we only came to know about a lot of such 'disturbances' only through the newspaper the next morning! So we went and – returned 'safely'! However we got learned about guns and curfew! Kohima was unbeatable – curfew was at 4.30pm! Earlier I lost count after 63 – being the number of pickets on the hillside occupied by armed Indian Army personnel, while on the 74 km road from Dimapur to Kohima. Additionally we crossed or overtook an equal number of small groups on foot or in all sorts of bizarre vehicles (not tanks, Kshmendra!). A curfew pass to visit our well connected 'contact' in a police vehicle gave us the opportunity to get the 'feel' of this deserted State Capital an hour after we had entered what was then a hubbub of activity. Locals smiled and said (borrowing from Sonia) that they had "gotten so used to" all this! Everyday, for months at a stretch. At Dimapur it was 6pm; 8pm at Imphal and Shillong; 10 at Guwahati... And guns! I'm sure one would not see so many types even in an Army Cantonment unless one strayed into the armoury. The short ones and the long; with holes in the barrel and those with the butt at right angle to the barrel. Realised what 'mind boggling' meant! You could see them almost everywhere. In every State excepting Arunachal. On this account the unbeatable experience was at the famous 'Ema Market' at Imphal. For every maybe five female shop owners at this woman-run market there was one 'jawan' with a gun held in readiness while tracing Brownian patterns in this crowded bazaar. Hitting the barrel of the gun with my elbow a number of times and looking up startled into the cold eyes of Jats each time I distinctly remember hearing one of my friends mutter, "You can tell where all this unity in our country emanates from". Today as we talk about Kashmir – I remember the Seven Sisters I last saw in 1992. Anyone on this list been there recently? Warmly Tilak > From: S. Jabbar Date: 2008/9/3 > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmir-Tanks on busy market squares - Harsh > Mander > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, > > > Yes I agree he ought to have been careful but I think what he¹s referring > to here is what we call commensurate force or lack thereof. At the height > of militancy in the Œ90s this could have been understandable but I think > these things ought to be reviewed periodically and calibrated like troop > strength and the locations of bunkers. > > Do you really require armoured vehicles (bulletproof, mineproof, IED proof) > with LMGs mounted on top at street corners in the Valley when the levels of > incidents have dropped? I¹d feel pretty offended if one moved into my > neighbourhood. I¹ve objected to armed bodyguards that trail behind important > politicians in Lodi Park. I don¹t like the way guns have littered our > landscape and become part of it. We¹ve gotten so used to them now that > we¹ve almost forgotten what life looked like without them, when the > policeman wielded nothing deadlier than a stout staff and the army man a > bolt action three-naught-three. > > > > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul > Reply-To: > Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 07:31:08 -0700 (PDT) > To: Sarai , "S. Jabbar" > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmir-Tanks on busy market squares - Harsh > Mander > > No. > > But, if an idiot like me knows the difference, I would expect an IAS person > to be much more aware. > > All said.... A Tank, is a Tank, is a Tank, is a Tank ........ > > I am sure he would have seen pics of the 'Tank' in Tiananmen Square. Maybe > he was transposing from that to imagining Tanks in "busy market squares" > ....."even in the small towns" of Kashmir. > > > --- On Wed, 9/3/08, S. Jabbar wrote: > > From: S. Jabbar > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmir-Tanks on busy market squares - Harsh > Mander > > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, "Sarai" > > Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 7:45 PM > > > > !! Do you really think the ability to distinguish between weaponry should > > become a criterion in the administrative services? > > > > > > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul > > Reply-To: > > Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 06:52:05 -0700 (PDT) > > To: Sarai , "S. Jabbar" > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmir-Tanks on busy market squares - Harsh > Mander > > > > Well! Well! Well! > > > > Mander is Ex IAS. Doesn't speak well of IAS. > > > > Tanks have 'Tracks' and APCs (at least in India) are wheeled. The girth > and > > general size are distinctly different. > > > > I thought highly of Mander after his resigning from Govt service as a > protest > > against the 'Gujarat Riots". But now ..... > > > > > > --- On Wed, 9/3/08, S. Jabbar wrote: > >> From: S. Jabbar > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmir-Tanks on busy market squares - Harsh > >> Mander > >> To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, "Sarai" > >> Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 6:58 PM > >> > >> A common mistake that people make when they come across armoured > vehicles > >> with LMGs mounted on top. > >> > >> > >>> > From: Kshmendra Kaul > >>> > Reply-To: > >>> > Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 06:14:17 -0700 (PDT) > >>> > To: sarai list > >>> > Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmir-Tanks on busy market squares - Harsh > Mander > >>> > > >>> > The well known personality Harsh Mander is quoted as saying: > >> > >> """"""" Even in > >>> > small towns, you encounter even today bullet-proof tanks stationed on > busy > >>> > market squares ...... """"" > >> > >> Would someone please let me know if this is > >>> > true. Are there 'tanks' stationed on busy market squares even in > >> the small > >>> > towns of Kashmir? This is the first time I have heard of this. > >> > >> Ex IAS cadre > >>> > and current Director Action Aid India, Harsh Mander is not expected > to > >> speak > >>> > untruths. He is unlikely to mistake some other vehicle for being a > >>> > "tank". > >> > >> If it is true then it is shameful. > >> > >> If it is not true, then Harsh > >>> > Mander was being deliberately and deviously deceitful. "Tanks" > >> being stationed > >>> > at busy market squares 'even in small towns' presents quite a > >> damning > >>> > picture. > >> > >> The quote is from a Press Release (02/09/08) by 'Kashmiri American > >>> > Council' about a seminar in Columbus, Ohio, USA . It was at > >> a convention of > >>> > ISNA (Islamic Society of North America). > >> > >> Kshmendra > >> > >> > >> > >>> > > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion > >>> > list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an > >>> > email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > >>> > header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> > > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sun Sep 7 02:49:34 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 02:49:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Delhi University gets ABVP president after 8 years/ reader-list Digest, Vol 62, Issue 35. In-Reply-To: <98f331e00809061411t758f471cq8ba213c5ee2608c9@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00809061411t758f471cq8ba213c5ee2608c9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70809061419u4afae77yfefb2f36f721ebe8@mail.gmail.com> And Ray Sahib, What is your definition about Casteist ? And as far as Mr Adityaraj Kauls stand on communalism is concerned ,.I am happy that someone from youth section speaks his mind out at dangers which can engulf the whole country in times to come. Pawan Durani On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 2:41 AM, prakash ray wrote: > Dear Mr Aditya Raj Kaul, > > I am not at all surprised at your happiness on the victory of ABVP's > presidential candidate in DUSU elections 2008. An activist like you of a > casteist organization like United Students, a clone of Youth for Equality, > will be only happy if a communal organization wins an election. And your > position on communalism is known to the readers of the list. Those who have > not heard about the outfit called United Students, I want to tell them that > this anti-reservation entity was formed in 2006 alongwith notorious Youth > for Equality to oppose reservation in the educational institution. United > Students contested DUSU elections in 2006 and 2007 and for better, it does > not exist anymore. Mr Aditya Raj Kaul led a delegation of United Students > to > the President of India on May 4, 2006 to oppose the reservations. > Interestingly, he is elated at the ABVP's victory after contesting against > it for two years. I am sure that he and his fellow anti-reservationists > worked for ABVP this time which 'supported' reservations. Will Mr Kaul > explain the deal between these two outfits? As far as the DUSU results are > concerned, it is another issue to be talked seperately. > > Prakash > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pkray11 at gmail.com Sun Sep 7 03:11:25 2008 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 03:11:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Delhi University gets ABVP president after 8 years/ reader-list Digest, Vol 62, Issue 35. In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70809061419u4afae77yfefb2f36f721ebe8@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00809061411t758f471cq8ba213c5ee2608c9@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70809061419u4afae77yfefb2f36f721ebe8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <98f331e00809061441h51ad1444pe7a632e2f8d722e7@mail.gmail.com> Shri Durani, Please ask about what is a castiest to Mr Aditya Raj Kaul. I am sure that he will speak (also open and show) his mind to you despite the dangers of taking the brain out in open without medical/surgical support and supervision. As far as my definition is concerned, I am not bothering you by telling it to you. If I tell you this, you will waste your time in replying to it. If needed, I will bother you on another issue on another time. Prakash On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 2:49 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > And Ray Sahib, > What is your definition about Casteist ? And as far as Mr Adityaraj Kauls > stand on communalism is concerned ,.I am happy that someone from youth > section speaks his mind out at dangers which can engulf the whole country in > times to come. > > Pawan Durani > > On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 2:41 AM, prakash ray wrote: > >> Dear Mr Aditya Raj Kaul, >> >> I am not at all surprised at your happiness on the victory of ABVP's >> presidential candidate in DUSU elections 2008. An activist like you of a >> casteist organization like United Students, a clone of Youth for Equality, >> will be only happy if a communal organization wins an election. And your >> position on communalism is known to the readers of the list. Those who >> have >> not heard about the outfit called United Students, I want to tell them >> that >> this anti-reservation entity was formed in 2006 alongwith notorious Youth >> for Equality to oppose reservation in the educational institution. United >> Students contested DUSU elections in 2006 and 2007 and for better, it does >> not exist anymore. Mr Aditya Raj Kaul led a delegation of United Students >> to >> the President of India on May 4, 2006 to oppose the reservations. >> Interestingly, he is elated at the ABVP's victory after contesting against >> it for two years. I am sure that he and his fellow anti-reservationists >> worked for ABVP this time which 'supported' reservations. Will Mr Kaul >> explain the deal between these two outfits? As far as the DUSU results are >> concerned, it is another issue to be talked seperately. >> >> Prakash >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > -- Prakash K Ray 225, Sutlej, JNU, New Delhi-110067. cinemela.blogspot.com (0) 9873313315 From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sun Sep 7 03:15:31 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 03:15:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Delhi University gets ABVP president after 8 years/ reader-list Digest, Vol 62, Issue 35. In-Reply-To: <98f331e00809061441h51ad1444pe7a632e2f8d722e7@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00809061411t758f471cq8ba213c5ee2608c9@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70809061419u4afae77yfefb2f36f721ebe8@mail.gmail.com> <98f331e00809061441h51ad1444pe7a632e2f8d722e7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70809061445o3ca898b3g29ef85e24d212c18@mail.gmail.com> Wouldnt have expetcted anything better from where your address is !..........you know what I mean. On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 3:11 AM, prakash ray wrote: > Shri Durani, > > Please ask about what is a castiest to Mr Aditya Raj Kaul. I am sure that > he > will speak (also open and show) his mind to you despite the dangers of > taking the brain out in open without medical/surgical support and > supervision. As far as my definition is concerned, I am not bothering you > by > telling it to you. If I tell you this, you will waste your time in replying > to it. If needed, I will bother you on another issue on another time. > > Prakash > > On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 2:49 AM, Pawan Durani > wrote: > > > And Ray Sahib, > > What is your definition about Casteist ? And as far as Mr Adityaraj Kauls > > stand on communalism is concerned ,.I am happy that someone from youth > > section speaks his mind out at dangers which can engulf the whole country > in > > times to come. > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 2:41 AM, prakash ray wrote: > > > >> Dear Mr Aditya Raj Kaul, > >> > >> I am not at all surprised at your happiness on the victory of ABVP's > >> presidential candidate in DUSU elections 2008. An activist like you of a > >> casteist organization like United Students, a clone of Youth for > Equality, > >> will be only happy if a communal organization wins an election. And your > >> position on communalism is known to the readers of the list. Those who > >> have > >> not heard about the outfit called United Students, I want to tell them > >> that > >> this anti-reservation entity was formed in 2006 alongwith notorious > Youth > >> for Equality to oppose reservation in the educational institution. > United > >> Students contested DUSU elections in 2006 and 2007 and for better, it > does > >> not exist anymore. Mr Aditya Raj Kaul led a delegation of United > Students > >> to > >> the President of India on May 4, 2006 to oppose the reservations. > >> Interestingly, he is elated at the ABVP's victory after contesting > against > >> it for two years. I am sure that he and his fellow anti-reservationists > >> worked for ABVP this time which 'supported' reservations. Will Mr Kaul > >> explain the deal between these two outfits? As far as the DUSU results > are > >> concerned, it is another issue to be talked seperately. > >> > >> Prakash > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > -- > Prakash K Ray > 225, Sutlej, JNU, New Delhi-110067. > cinemela.blogspot.com > (0) 9873313315 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From taraprakash at gmail.com Sun Sep 7 03:54:21 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 18:24:21 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Delhi University gets ABVP president after 8years/ reader-list Digest, Vol 62, Issue 35. References: <98f331e00809061411t758f471cq8ba213c5ee2608c9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <004501c9106f$5896c560$6500a8c0@taraprakash> Interesting. This admonition is coming from a representative of a party that opposed Congress for ages, then very recently was elated with Congress's victories, supported it to form the government in the center and supported it to remain in power for four years. How about contacting Prabhat Patnaik for taking lessons in Messianic Moralism? I hope you don't forget this important lesson that those who have glass doors, don't throw stones at other peoples' houses. ----- Original Message ----- From: "prakash ray" To: Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2008 5:11 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Delhi University gets ABVP president after 8years/ reader-list Digest, Vol 62, Issue 35. > Dear Mr Aditya Raj Kaul, > > I am not at all surprised at your happiness on the victory of ABVP's > presidential candidate in DUSU elections 2008. An activist like you of a > casteist organization like United Students, a clone of Youth for Equality, > will be only happy if a communal organization wins an election. And your > position on communalism is known to the readers of the list. Those who > have > not heard about the outfit called United Students, I want to tell them > that > this anti-reservation entity was formed in 2006 alongwith notorious Youth > for Equality to oppose reservation in the educational institution. United > Students contested DUSU elections in 2006 and 2007 and for better, it does > not exist anymore. Mr Aditya Raj Kaul led a delegation of United Students > to > the President of India on May 4, 2006 to oppose the reservations. > Interestingly, he is elated at the ABVP's victory after contesting against > it for two years. I am sure that he and his fellow anti-reservationists > worked for ABVP this time which 'supported' reservations. Will Mr Kaul > explain the deal between these two outfits? As far as the DUSU results are > concerned, it is another issue to be talked seperately. > > Prakash > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From taraprakash at gmail.com Sun Sep 7 07:03:48 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 21:33:48 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmir: Is secession the answer? (Hindu) Message-ID: <003e01c91089$c9d54110$6500a8c0@taraprakash> Kashmir: is secession the answer? Kanti Bajpai It would be foolish to argue that the secession of a people is ruled out forever.It would be equally foolish to choose secession without a careful thought of the larger ramifications. The protests and violence in Jammu and Kashmir have once again raised the issue of the State’s secession from India. While the Amarnath shrine dispute is clearly the trigger for the secessionist calls in the Valley, the agitation there seems to be part of a deeper malaise. Recognising this, a body of opinion outside Kashmir argues that it is probably time to let the State go. A sense of fatigue over Kashmir and a feeling of discomfort over compelling people to stay within the Indian Union when they want to leave are evident in these arguments. This is understandable: it has been 20 long years of conflict and pain; and it is discomfiting to think that we are holding a people within a community when they are unhappy. However, secession is never simply a choice internal to the community seeking it because the consequences may well be felt in the larger community from which it is separating and in the international community which it seeks to join. This does not mean that secession is ruled out forever. There are times when it may well be necessary. Under what circumstances can (or should) a people secede? Political theorists argue that in the face of genocidal violence, a people has a right to secede. They also suggest that massive discrimination and denial of human rights are grounds for secession. But is Kashmir an instance of genocide, discrimination, and egregious human rights abuses? Have Indian actions in Kashmir amounted to genocidal violence? There has certainly been violence in the Valley, by both the militants and the agencies of the Indian state. While it is true that there has been provocation from the militants and, on occasion, from protesters, there is no avoiding the conclusion that innocents have been illegally detained, there have been rape and pillage, there has been torture, there are people missing, and there are those who have died in faked encounters. Does this amount, though, to genocide? The roll-call of abuses is a melancholic one, but it is not genocide — either in intent or in practice. The Indian government has not sought the extermination of the Kashmiri people whatever its motives and actions over the past 20 years. Can the government be accused of massively discriminating against them? It would be hard to show that this is the case. If anything, it is the opposite. Article 370 of the Constitution gives the State special rights and privileges. Kashmir has its own Constitution, the only State to have one. No Central law can apply there without the assent of the State legislature. Indians from other States cannot own property in Kashmir (there are other States in the Union where this is true). The Union government’s responsibilities are restricted to foreign policy, defence, and communications. It is true that New Delhi has fiddled with Article 370 or at least with the spirit of it, but it would be an exaggeration to say this amounts to a case for secession. Economically better placed Economically, Kashmir is better placed than most other States. It has amongst the lowest levels of poverty. It gets more per capita transfers from the Central government than virtually any other State. One might argue that it could have done better economically; but so could have many other States. The development problems of Kashmir — poverty, lack of education, bad infrastructure, not enough industrialisation and private investment, poor governance, and rampant corruption — are hardly unique to the State. These cannot be attributed to a policy of government vindictiveness. Human rights violations might be a ground for secession even if discrimination is not. Indian government agencies have a lot to answer for, as noted above. But are their actions a case for secession though? If the government made no attempt to improve its record and if it is true that the Indian political system is without resources and methods to improve its approach to Kashmir, then the case for secession would be strengthened. Once again, it would be hard to show that the Indian government has been unwilling to rein in its agencies and make restitution for earlier lapses and mistakes. It has prosecuted some members of the police and armed forces who committed human rights excesses. It has got rid of two draconian laws, TADA and POTA, which gave the authorities the power to detain and hold citizens preventively (although there are special powers in place that have not been dismantled). New Delhi has also tried to educate the army and para-military forces on human rights conduct. Crucially, despite its earlier electoral record of manipulation, the Indian government has held free and fair elections in the State, and the media continue to report on Kashmir, including the excesses of the government. This is not a brilliant record, but it does suggest that the system can be made more accountable. Even if the government’s record does not justify the case for secession, we might still support the separation if it is shown that those who claim to lead or might come to lead the independent state are representative and responsible agents who would make life better for Kashmiris. The All Parties Hurriyat Conference (APHC), which claims to represent Kashmiri opinion and which might lead an independent Kashmir, has never been tested electorally, principally because it has chosen not to contest. While it is a coalition of parties, there are parties which are members of the APHC and which do not necessarily support secession. The militants, who are fighting for secession, are even more unknown; evidently, they are more feared than loved. Finally, whatever support the APHC and the militants enjoy in the Valley, their base in Jammu and Ladakh is much smaller. How representative? How confidently can we say the APHC and the militants would be better than the present dispensation in giving Kashmir democracy and good governance? Would there be a constitutional government, elections, an independent judiciary, an active media, and public debate? Would religious and ethnic minorities be protected? The APHC has been remarkably coy about its political values and preferences, so it is hard to tell how respectful it is of democracy. It is ridden with internal conflicts and has displayed little coherence. Perhaps, as a result, it has failed to articulate a cogent view of politics in an independent Kashmir. As for the militants, they have attacked not only the agencies of the Indian government but also unarmed civilians, Muslim and Hindu, with great regularity. Violence against unarmed people is terrorism pure and simple and is surely not encouraging in terms of the political values of these groups. The rising influence of fundamentalist Islam in the Valley also does not augur well for a democratic, pluralist, and open Kashmir. Before we countenance secession, let us also ask whether or not the geopolitical setting of an independent state would be conducive to independence. Kashmir would be surrounded by three regional powers, two of which are mega states, India and China, and the third is Pakistan, the eighth biggest country in the world in population terms. All three will have claims to Kashmiri territory and allegiance, and will exert enormous pressures on the state in their own strategic interests. That Kashmir is landlocked will not help. Whatever the rights of landlocked states and upper riparians under the international law, Kashmir will be dependent on the goodwill of India and Pakistan, if not China. Secession is not simply a choice that a community makes of its own free will. Since the effects of secession may be felt far and wide, the international community has a right to bear on the issue. It has a right to ask if the new government will be stable and well organised and capable of preserving its independence. It must also ask whether the effects of secessionism are, on the whole, positive for those near and far. Secession from India could well have calamitous effects within India and Pakistan and on their mutual relations: the fragility of these states and their relationship makes it almost certain that the independence of Kashmir will lead to massive political convulsions. The effects of Kashmiri secession may not be restricted to South Asia. It may flame Islamic militants all over the world. And it could energise separatists well beyond the region. Kashmiris in the Valley and Indians outside the Valley must consider these issues before accepting the case for secession. It would be foolish to argue that the secession of a people is ruled out forever. It would be equally foolish to choose secession without a careful thought of the larger ramifications. (The author writes on foreign policy and security issues.) From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 7 08:36:33 2008 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 20:06:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions In-Reply-To: <47e122a70809060920y19776e93h255b15362bc1f835@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <247640.5529.qm@web51406.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dear Inder Please don't take that statement as mine. I said I'm not sure if I agree to it, and I quoted it from a friend to add to the existing debate. I am the last person on earth to condemn artists for having monopoly on liberalism. But to me, both sentiments (hurt as well as liberalism) can go into extremes that can be unacceptable for both parties. On this forum one of the things we had been discussing (especially with Rahul Asthana) is the possible alternatives to the current logjam. And as I and Rahul agreed, a communication or dialogue is essential between the two parties where they try to understand each other's hurt or liberalism. I know you will see this as too narrow an approach. But I would be happy to know if you have a better alternative. I think you too are making too sweeping statements about the people on this forum. Yousuf --- On Sat, 9/6/08, inder salim wrote: > From: inder salim > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Saturday, September 6, 2008, 9:50 PM > Dear Yousuf > this is too sweeping a statement by a well read person like > you. > > this also gives us a clue - how often well read people > quickly throw > reasoning to dust bins and join hands with those who boldy > declare > 'fundamentalsim' as their guiding light on the path > of spirituality. > if we condemn artists for having monoply on > 'liberalism' then how to > denounce entire majority of religous world who have mononly > on 'hurt' > ? Our sufi bhakti traditions were much liberal in their > ' ways of > living' than what you consider as offensive. > > this also teachs me that we are basically too small to > speak anything > truely about these overwhelming issues through these short > cut > discussions, > > Here, i think of paintings, poetry, music dance ( al > erotic, sacred > and profane ) and all the eccentric moods of our society, > even if ' > well read people' consider it just an entertainment for > artists > themselves, and couple of few others in the world. > > We are in a serious trouble. or only I ( artist ) feel it > ? > > love > is > > > > On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 7:10 PM, Yousuf > wrote: > > Dear Ishwar > > I can't decide whether I agree with you or not, > but a friend of mine (to whom I was telling about this > discussion) echoes your point. According to him, if the > religious people have a monopoly on "hurt", the > artists have a monopoly on "taking liberties". So > these two "rights" should balance out each other, > and no one should complain... > > > > Yousuf > > > > > > --- On Sat, 9/6/08, Ishwar > wrote: > > From: Ishwar > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and > Transgressions > > To: "Aarti Sethi" > , "inder salim" > , "Sarai Reader-list" > > > Date: Saturday, September 6, 2008, 6:07 PM > > > > Kudos to a well-written reply, andofcourse, to > TeadBeeDi too :) > > > > While we're at it, how about a little bit of > thought on this too? > > > > While questioning religious communities' monopoly > on "hurt", one > > must also take into consideration frameworks. > > Religious > > frameworks by their very nature have the concept of > blasphemy, to > > various degrees, be it 'kadavul kutram' > (blasphemous talk against the > > divine) from where I come, to blasphemy laws, > etc.wherein the concept > > of individual liberty is weighed down in front of a > higher divine. > > > > As > > liberals(or feminists or apathetists, or any ists), we > have > > chosen/adopted/devised our own framework which > channelises such hurt to > > productive means.The world has other frameworks too. > Taking this > > concept of channelising hurt to a different religious > framework and > > expecting it to be adopted/respected is as naive as, > say, a scientist > > expecting his/her ideas on non-existence of god, or > proof of evolution > > to be accepted by the religious community. > > > > That religious frameworks can change is a different > discussion altogether. > > > > > > Ishwar > > > > > > Just another resurrected Neozoic Archosaur comics. > > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/mojosaurus/sets/72157600257724083/ > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Aarti Sethi > > To: inder salim > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > Sent: Thursday, September 4, 2008 2:39:27 PM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and > Transgressions > > > > A few thoughts on an interesting discussion. > > > > One term I think that has remained unexamined in this > discussion is > > "hurt" > > or "sentiment". By this I mean not an > assessment of whether that hurt > > is > > justified, valid etc, who is to decide whether this > offends or not, whether > > this is offensive or not, the relative > self-sufficiency of value systems and > > speaking across them. But the inherent value of hurt > as a positive force in > > itself. Let me try and explain what I mean. > > > > Why is "hurt sentiment" a bad thing in > itself? Can having one's > > sentiments > > hurt, sometimes quite badly, not be a positive force? > Might it not impell me > > to re-think, or think, about my sentiments in a manner > that is creative? > > Maybe those sentiments are better discarded. Maybe my > outrage alerts me to a > > violence I have been commiting without realising it. > Maybe if more people's > > sentiments were outraged a little more forcefully, > then we would be living > > in a far more democratic and tolerant world. > > > > Further, I do not see why only religious communities > have a monopoly on > > sentiments which can then be hurt. As a feminist, my > sentiments are > > assaulted on a routine and regular basis. As someone > who believes in a > > version of social justice and equality, once > articulated by, but not only > > by, Marx for instance, my feelings are continually > trampled over. As someone > > who believes in a secular vision, the discussions on > this list offend me > > everyday. However i do not see this being taken very > seriously. And it > > needn't, that is the point. It is up to me to > alchemize this outrage, hurt, > > sadness in a manner that enables me to live and act in > the world. > > > > This is actually how we live our lives generally. My > mother, or father, or > > lover, or friend might say something that hurts me > terribly. Not always is > > this clarified, discussed, put in its right > perspective. All our lives are > > all littered with silent archives of hurts we have > never expressed. There is > > no heroic moment in which resolution is sought for > hurts. And no one can do > > this for anyone... > > > > The recent Vogue advertisements doing the rounds, > around which there has > > been some discussion on this list, have hurt the > sentiments of many people. > > A few years ago another set of advertisements for > brand equity in which two > > tribal women are shown discussing the tans they have > got in Monte Carlo to > > an accompanying snide and contemptous copy which said > something about how > > advertisers need to accurately reach their consumers, > also outraged many of > > us. Having thought about this, I realised that though > both the Vogue ads and > > the brand equity ads trouble me, they do so in > different ways. > > > > The Vogue ads can be read in one of many ways - that > it posits a horizon of > > desire that is unachievable for the people it uses for > the ad. In some sense > > then the frisson of the ad derives from the > discrepancy in what is desired > > and what is possible. Further it assumes that their > horizon of desire will > > follow the trajectory laid out by Vogue. But most > interesting to me is that > > both Vogue and the critics work with a fixed > definition of poverty in the > > first place, and certain trajectory of the direction > a life can take. > > > > The second set of ads function on precisely the > opposite principle. Rather > > than positing an eventual horizon of desire, they deem > a present life as > > failed, and urges us to recognise its failure. It > presumes and makes me > > complicit in a social consensus in which we can use > languages in a manner as > > if we are all agreed on the terms in operation. > > > > Can you see the difference in both ads? They both > trouble me deeply, but > > they trouble me in different ways. How is this at all > useful, or valuable? I > > think it is. I think to be able to carefully work > through how and why and in > > what ways something arrives to me and what it disturbs > is a critical thing, > > if we are to fashion any sort of language to deal with > the violence of the > > present. > > > > with regards > > Aarti > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > > the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From ishwarsridharan at yahoo.com Sun Sep 7 10:13:02 2008 From: ishwarsridharan at yahoo.com (Ishwar) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 21:43:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions Message-ID: <882235.3245.qm@web31812.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Guess I wasn't clear enough in what I intended to convey, and lack of clarity always invites misinterpretation. Inder, what made you come to the conclusion that understanding hurt sentiments in religious and other frameworks is tantamount to declaring support for fundamentalism? For that matter, when did understanding anything equated to supporting it? As an artist, can I assume that your work would not be received with enthusiasm from every section of the population? That being the case. I think it's vital to understand that the religious communities' hurt comes from something that's fundamental to their current framework, in the local context. Saying 'Dude, everybody gets hurt, so chill' is not quite the answer. After respecting the reasoning behind the hate, one might choose to work towards a conversation. I find the comment 'how to denounce entire majority of religous world who have mononly on 'hurt'"' rather strange. We aren't here to denounce viewpoints are we? I'd thought certain actions are to be denounced, not word views. If that's not the case, how is liberalism any different from religion, the very majority we seek to denounce? P.S: Pardon my ignorance of keywords to express ideas. Ishwar Just another resurrected Neozoic Archosaur comics. http://www.flickr.com/photos/mojosaurus/sets/72157600257724083/ ----- Original Message ---- From: inder salim To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Saturday, September 6, 2008 9:50:56 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions Dear Yousuf this is too sweeping a statement by a well read person like you. this also gives us a clue - how often well read people quickly throw reasoning to dust bins and join hands with those who boldy declare 'fundamentalsim' as their guiding light on the path of spirituality. if we condemn artists for having monoply on 'liberalism' then how to denounce entire majority of religous world who have mononly on 'hurt' ? Our sufi bhakti traditions were much liberal in their ' ways of living' than what you consider as offensive. this also teachs me that we are basically too small to speak anything truely about these overwhelming issues through these short cut discussions, Here, i think of paintings, poetry, music dance ( al erotic, sacred and profane ) and all the eccentric moods of our society, even if ' well read people' consider it just an entertainment for artists themselves, and couple of few others in the world. We are in a serious trouble. or only I ( artist ) feel it ? love is On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 7:10 PM, Yousuf wrote: > Dear Ishwar > I can't decide whether I agree with you or not, but a friend of mine (to whom I was telling about this discussion) echoes your point. According to him, if the religious people have a monopoly on "hurt", the artists have a monopoly on "taking liberties". So these two "rights" should balance out each other, and no one should complain... > > Yousuf > > > --- On Sat, 9/6/08, Ishwar wrote: > From: Ishwar > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions > To: "Aarti Sethi" , "inder salim" , "Sarai Reader-list" > Date: Saturday, September 6, 2008, 6:07 PM > > Kudos to a well-written reply, andofcourse, to TeadBeeDi too :) > > While we're at it, how about a little bit of thought on this too? > > While questioning religious communities' monopoly on "hurt", one > must also take into consideration frameworks. > Religious > frameworks by their very nature have the concept of blasphemy, to > various degrees, be it 'kadavul kutram' (blasphemous talk against the > divine) from where I come, to blasphemy laws, etc.wherein the concept > of individual liberty is weighed down in front of a higher divine. > > As > liberals(or feminists or apathetists, or any ists), we have > chosen/adopted/devised our own framework which channelises such hurt to > productive means.The world has other frameworks too. Taking this > concept of channelising hurt to a different religious framework and > expecting it to be adopted/respected is as naive as, say, a scientist > expecting his/her ideas on non-existence of god, or proof of evolution > to be accepted by the religious community. > > That religious frameworks can change is a different discussion altogether. > > > Ishwar > > > Just another resurrected Neozoic Archosaur comics. > http://www.flickr.com/photos/mojosaurus/sets/72157600257724083/ > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Aarti Sethi > To: inder salim > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Thursday, September 4, 2008 2:39:27 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions > > A few thoughts on an interesting discussion. > > One term I think that has remained unexamined in this discussion is > "hurt" > or "sentiment". By this I mean not an assessment of whether that hurt > is > justified, valid etc, who is to decide whether this offends or not, whether > this is offensive or not, the relative self-sufficiency of value systems and > speaking across them. But the inherent value of hurt as a positive force in > itself. Let me try and explain what I mean. > > Why is "hurt sentiment" a bad thing in itself? Can having one's > sentiments > hurt, sometimes quite badly, not be a positive force? Might it not impell me > to re-think, or think, about my sentiments in a manner that is creative? > Maybe those sentiments are better discarded. Maybe my outrage alerts me to a > violence I have been commiting without realising it. Maybe if more people's > sentiments were outraged a little more forcefully, then we would be living > in a far more democratic and tolerant world. > > Further, I do not see why only religious communities have a monopoly on > sentiments which can then be hurt. As a feminist, my sentiments are > assaulted on a routine and regular basis. As someone who believes in a > version of social justice and equality, once articulated by, but not only > by, Marx for instance, my feelings are continually trampled over. As someone > who believes in a secular vision, the discussions on this list offend me > everyday. However i do not see this being taken very seriously. And it > needn't, that is the point. It is up to me to alchemize this outrage, hurt, > sadness in a manner that enables me to live and act in the world. > > This is actually how we live our lives generally. My mother, or father, or > lover, or friend might say something that hurts me terribly. Not always is > this clarified, discussed, put in its right perspective. All our lives are > all littered with silent archives of hurts we have never expressed. There is > no heroic moment in which resolution is sought for hurts. And no one can do > this for anyone... > > The recent Vogue advertisements doing the rounds, around which there has > been some discussion on this list, have hurt the sentiments of many people. > A few years ago another set of advertisements for brand equity in which two > tribal women are shown discussing the tans they have got in Monte Carlo to > an accompanying snide and contemptous copy which said something about how > advertisers need to accurately reach their consumers, also outraged many of > us. Having thought about this, I realised that though both the Vogue ads and > the brand equity ads trouble me, they do so in different ways. > > The Vogue ads can be read in one of many ways - that it posits a horizon of > desire that is unachievable for the people it uses for the ad. In some sense > then the frisson of the ad derives from the discrepancy in what is desired > and what is possible. Further it assumes that their horizon of desire will > follow the trajectory laid out by Vogue. But most interesting to me is that > both Vogue and the critics work with a fixed definition of poverty in the > first place, and certain trajectory of the direction a life can take. > > The second set of ads function on precisely the opposite principle. Rather > than positing an eventual horizon of desire, they deem a present life as > failed, and urges us to recognise its failure. It presumes and makes me > complicit in a social consensus in which we can use languages in a manner as > if we are all agreed on the terms in operation. > > Can you see the difference in both ads? They both trouble me deeply, but > they trouble me in different ways. How is this at all useful, or valuable? I > think it is. I think to be able to carefully work through how and why and in > what ways something arrives to me and what it disturbs is a critical thing, > if we are to fashion any sort of language to deal with the violence of the > present. > > with regards > Aarti > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sun Sep 7 13:03:55 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 13:03:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Amarnath Accord - What A.G.Noorani did not tell you ! Message-ID: <6b79f1a70809070033g7b7a1fcbn5c276c8eb0aee757@mail.gmail.com> http://thekashmir.wordpress.com/2008/09/07/noorani/ Amarnath Accord - What A.G.Noorani did not tell you ! - Pawan Durani Much has been discussed and propagated by Pseudo Secularists and "Jhola Chaaps" about an article by right wing writer A.G.Noorani . Here I would like to share the points with the readers of how biased A.G.Noorani is when it comes to sharing the right facts. The accord ignores completely Kashmir where the land is to be given. Jammu alone was represented. - A.G.Noorani What Noorani has forgotten that Jammu & Kashmir is a one complete state and anyone in Jammu & Ladakh has an equal right over every single inch of land in the whole state. Also Noorani has completely ignored that Kashmiri Hindus who have been in the forefront of the agitation led by Sangarsh Samiti also represent Kashmir in particular. The authors seems to have probably bowed to the wishes of Kashmiri terrorists by erasing the thought of Kashmiri Hindus from even the memory. Even the controversial order nowhere used the word "exclusive" What Noorani does not either know or does not want to be known is that there is a order of High Court dated 15.04.2005 [ OWP No 732/2004 Rampal Bathonia Vs State ] in which the Hon Court Ordered " Since the Board intends to upgrade the infrastructure across the tracks and at different places, the state shall,immediately permit the use of Forest Land by the board,if not already allowed,to enable it to carry out the development activities for the benefit of the Yatris. I am informed that the Forest Department has already granted permisssion to the board for the purpose." The state Govt went in to appeal to the Division Bench of High Court. The division bench vide its interim directions on 17.5.2005 ordered as follows " The land to be allotted by the board would be *only* for the purpose of the user and would remain limited for the duration of Yatra. I wonder if Noorani has ever read the court orders, which I am sure he may not have , as it did not suit his own support to the fundamentalists in Kashmir and elsewhere.I wonder if Noorani understand the meaning of these judgements and the least he could is to understand the meaning of "only" in the above order. The Baltal route is a recent demand. It was regarded by the Army and Nitish Sengupta Report as dangerous.- A.G.Noorani Again,Noorani misses the finer points. Noorani does not care to share with his readers that out of 20 odd recommendations by Nitish Sen Gupta committee on Amaranth.,the prominent was activisation of shorter Baltal route to reduce the hardships via Chandanwari & SheshNaag route. This violates the citizen's fundamental right under Art. 19 (1) D to move freely throughout India.–A.G.Noorani Alas Noorani uses the fundamental rights to his own requirements. Wonder why Noorani does not support abrogation of Article 370 of Indian constitution. Of all the fundamental rights listed in our constitution the first one is "Right To Equality"….."The State shall not discriminate against any citizen on grounds only of religion, race, caste, sex, place of birth or any of them." Does Noorani not feel that 100 crore citizens of India are denied these rights as they do not equal the pampered state subject of Jammu & Kashmir. Why deny the right to buy land in Jammu & Kashmir to 100 crore Indians? Why is Noorani silent on this fundamental right ? namely "undertaking measures relating to … preservation of ecology" etc. Breach entails no fine… A.G.Noorani Even though the Amarnath Shrine Board has insisted that they would be taking measures to reduce any harm to ecology the concerns were largely raised when someone said that the "Thajiwaas" glacier is endangered. Again what Noorani does either not know or does not want to share with his reader is that in a report submitted by Chief Wild Life Warden , WLP/Tech/1971/07 dated 11.06.2007, after on spot inspection, the following information was shared "It was noticed that the proposed site for construction of Shri Amarnath Shrine Board Complex,falling in the compartment 63(s)/ Sindh/Kullan is located on the right side of Sindh rivulet.The proposed complex does not seems to have any significant impact on the ecology of "Thajwaas" Wild Life sanctuary. ……It is also given to underastand that the board is using pre-fabricated structures as such likely pollution due to discharge of muck and garbage should not be significant. The order of 26 May was rescinded on 1 July. The accord will require a fresh order to implement it. By itself the accord has no legal force. Section 2(a) of the J&K Forest (Conservation) Act 1997 says "the Government shall not, except on a resolution of the Council of Ministers based on the advice of the Advisory Committee" constituted under the Act "make any order directing that any forest land or any portion thereof may be used for any non-forest purpose…..A.G.Noorani The recommendations of the Forest department has already been heard by council of Ministers and a decision taken. The whole idea was to understand the feasibility of land for the board. Since the land was approved by Forest Committe and under order No 108-FST dated 17.03.2008 , it clarifies that the camping site and Thajiwaas wild life sanctuary are divided by Sindh river.The Forest committee recommended that SASB should take Safeguards for pollution control.It also agreed that land be used for pre-fabricated structures for camping of pilgrims . It was basis of the report of the committee constituted vide Govt. Order no 108/FST dated 17.03.2008 the Forest Minsiter cleared the file for diversion of file to the Shrine Board.The cabnit followed vide its decision No 94/7. One can understand the total partisan article coming from A.G.Noorani who always find anything related to Hindu rights as communal. He talks of Amarnath accord as "Gunah" , and that makes me believe that when it comes to even justice….a Muslim lawyer is a Muslim first and the "real" justice" comes as a second priority. And for me that is a real "Gunah" From b_a_r_u_k at yahoo.com Sun Sep 7 13:39:34 2008 From: b_a_r_u_k at yahoo.com (Baruk S. Jacob) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 01:09:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord (Nobody) In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70809061229n44e9f372i200d4250bf79a3ca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <362469.62587.qm@web54202.mail.re2.yahoo.com> pawan, there are a lot of us on this list who are "nobody" in the kashmir issue. if your discussion is confined to who you define as "somebody", maybe you could send THEM your mails. leave us nobodies out! ~baruk http://bottlebroke.blogspot.com --- On Sun, 9/7/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > From: Pawan Durani > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord > To: "Aarti Sethi" > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Sunday, September 7, 2008, 12:59 AM > Aarti, > Since you r NOBODY in Kashmir issue, you re irrelevant when > it comes to > discussing the issues and the personalities involved. > > And I wonder why Inder Ji does not respect himself by > suffixing Balasaheb or > Advani Ji with Sahib. > > I know Murtaza and Yasin Malik better than they know > themselves and to know > why I know so much about these liars ...you better know > me. > > Pawan > > > > On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 12:52 AM, Aarti Sethi > wrote: > > > Pawan, > > > > How is working with a brussel's based organisation > a statement about > > someone's credibility? Is a job being a "paid > agent'? Then we are all "paid > > agents" of someone or the other. The kashmir > affairs website says quite > > clearly that it is a non-funded organisation. If you > know something the rest > > of us don't, then maybe you should share it with > the list. Otherwise your > > attack on Murtaza makes no sense whatsoever. > > > > > > Aarti > > > >> > >> > >> > >> On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 9:18 PM, inder salim > wrote: > >> > >> > Dear Rashneek > >> > > >> > some times back Mr. Kshmendra said something > similar to me, > >> > > >> > " you deserve to be ignored " > >> > > >> > and now it is you who said it to Shuddha. > >> > > >> > I beleive, anybody who had developed a > dislike for a particular person > >> > may simply prese the botton ' delete' > >> > > >> > it is too easy. > >> > because to express the anger on the list is > worst than even 2+2=5. > >> > > >> > now, coming back to the basic question of > 'Land and Freedom in > >> > Kashmir' as seen in the present and > beyond: > >> > > >> > We all know what is the the stand of an > Nationlaist Indian. There is > >> > nothing new, What you are saying is no > differnt from Man Mohan Singh > >> > ji, our PM. > >> > > >> > But if the religion of all Kashmiris is > ' AZADI then how to convert > >> > them all into other religion which is Indian > Nationalism in this case. > >> > > >> > I think it is very simple. Army and police > and other reasoning has > >> > not helped us. > >> > I too would like to see a change of heart in > kashmir. but, after 1990 > >> > that possiblity looks now remote. Whatever > the reasons... > >> > > >> > Yes, Kashmiri pandits have a legal claim in > the valley, but that can > >> > be the part of a real discussion, as and when > it happens between the > >> > representatives of all the inhabitants of the > disputed territory. > >> > > >> > Now disturbes my personally, is that the fact > that the Hindu Right > >> > wing has politically appropriated the whole > intellectual worth of > >> > Kashmiri pandits. which is not different from > Jamat-i-Islami's effort > >> > to represent the whole of AZADI in kashmir. > Kashmiri pandits need to > >> > write about it boldly. And if there is none, > they one Advani-cum-Modi > >> > is enough to represent them. That will be > unfortunate. > >> > > >> > We all know how people in kahsmir are > handling this issue. Everything > >> > is hazy, but we have recently witnessed how > Geelani sahib had to > >> > retract from his claim of total > representation. So similarly you too > >> > need to think that every kashmniri pandit is > not necessarly a > >> > VHP/BJP/BajrangDal/ShivSanik lover. Let us > respect the possiblity. > >> > > >> > then that will amount to 2+2=4 > >> > > >> > with love > >> > is > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Just press the delete button, anything that > you consider > >> > On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 8:14 PM, Aditya Raj > Kaul < > >> kauladityaraj at gmail.com> > >> > wrote: > >> > > Dear Aarti, > >> > > > >> > > You are so right. We just can't > ignore Shuddha's posts on this forum. > >> He > >> > > needs to be corrected from time to time, > hence, we just can't remain > >> > silent. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Be careful Aarti.Disinformation spread > can be dangerous. > >> > > > >> > > Warm Regards, > >> > > Aditya Raj Kaul > >> > > > >> > > On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 12:31 PM, Aarti > Sethi > >> > wrote: > >> > > > >> > >> Really? Is that so? In which case > every post shuddha writes, rife > >> with > >> > >> inaccuracies and and ignorance, > should immediately get a response > >> from > >> > you > >> > >> setting the record straight. > Instead, what we witness is a deafening > >> > >> silence. Be careful and intelligent > about whom you choose as your > >> > >> adversaries Rashneek. And I think > you are well aware of whose posts > >> are > >> > >> generally ignored on this list and > it certainly isn't Shuddha. > >> > >> > >> > >> regards > >> > >> Aarti > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 11:19 AM, > rashneek kher > >> > wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>> All that notwithstanding, > Shuddha's knowledge and understanding of > >> > either > >> > >>> history or politics is of > Kashmir is so poor or so full of > >> inaccuries > >> > >>> (intentional as well ignorant) > that it is time we start ignoring his > >> > posts > >> > >>> on Kashmir. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Regards > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Rashneek > >> > >>> > >> > >>> On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 8:24 PM, > Aditya Raj Kaul < > >> > kauladityaraj at gmail.com > >> > >>> >wrote: > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > And, In a recent lecture in > Jamia University, he was no different. > >> > >>> > Advocating pan-Islamist > movement in Kashmir. > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > On 9/3/08, Lalit Ambardar > wrote: > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> > > It is not > surprising.AG Noorani is a known sympathiser of the > >> > Kashmiri > >> > >>> > pan > >> > >>> > > Islamists & their > cause. He ran a campaign series in support of > >> > the > >> > >>> > > separatists in HT for > years .The very fact that Noorani has > >> chosen > >> > to > >> > >>> > call > >> > >>> > > Jammuites as > 'communal forces' & 'parivar' & the > accord itself > >> as > >> > >>> > > 'gunah-e-bey > lazzat' & describe those who attempt to seek > "azadi > >> > -bara > >> > >>> -e > >> > >>> > > -Islam" as > 'victims' says it all. > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> > > Noorani once went > overboard in " don't be fence-sitters " (HT > >> New > >> > >>> > Delhi/May > >> > >>> > > 8, 2007) in his > appreciation of Sayad Sallahudin of HM & the > >> > >>> al-Qeada > >> > >>> > > affiliate LeT. In a > bizarre coincidence , the day LeT chief > >> > allegedly > >> > >>> > > assured some Gen. > Patankar of his willingness to come to India > >> for > >> > >>> talks > >> > >>> > > (...????....) as > claimed by Noorani in the article , that very > >> day > >> > >>> Hafeez > >> > >>> > > Sayad confessed to the > reporters in Islamabad about the > >> existence > >> > of > >> > >>> > > terrorist > infrastructure in Pakistan & declared his resolve to > >> > carry > >> > >>> on > >> > >>> > the > >> > >>> > > 'jihad' to its > logical conclusion (Ref. TNN/ Times of India, > >> > DEL/May8' > >> > >>> > 07/ > >> > >>> > > page no.13). > >> > >>> > > LA > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> > > > Date: Wed, 3 Sep > 2008 03:55:11 -0700> From: > >> > kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > To: > >> > >>> > > shuddha at sarai.net> > CC: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: > >> > >>> [Reader-list] > >> > >>> > > Noorani Reads the Fine > Print of the Amarnath Accord> > > > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > >> > > >> > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1 > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > > > > >> > >>> > > > > --- On Wed, > 9/3/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta < > >> shuddha at sarai.net> > >> > >>> > wrote:> > >> > >>> > > > From: > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Subject: > Re: > >> > >>> > > [Reader-list] Noorani > Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath > >> Accord> > >> > To: > >> > >>> > > "Shuddhabrata > Sengupta" > Cc: "Sarai > list" < > >> > >>> > > > reader-list at sarai.net>> Date: Wednesday, September 3, > 2008, > >> 4:07 > >> > PM> > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > > Dear all,> > The > link to the Noorani article in the Greater > >> Kashmir > >> > >>> > > Newspaper in > my > earlier post got inadvertently truncated. Here > >> is > >> > >>> the > >> > >>> > > correct link.> > > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp? > >> > > >> > >>> > > > Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> > Thanks, Tilak > Upadhyay for > >> > pointing > >> > >>> this > >> > >>> > > out.> > > best,> > Shuddha> > On 03-Sep-08, at 3:16 PM, > >> Shuddhabrata > >> > >>> > Sengupta > >> > >>> > > wrote: Dear all> > > > Dear All,> >> > An unusual intensity > of > >> hunger > >> > >>> for > >> > >>> > land > >> > >>> > > unites corporations, > state> > agencies and shrine boards in > >> India. > >> > >>> > Captains > >> > >>> > > of Industry,> > > politicians and land hungry divines seem to be > >> more > >> > >>> > > interested in> > > acrage than in anything else. The Mahabharata > >> > >>> mentions > >> > >>> > the > >> > >>> > > burning of> > > the Khandava forest to appease a hungry god, > >> > >>> inaugurating a > >> > >>> > > long> > history > of burnt and erased forests and commons. It > >> appears > >> > as > >> > >>> it > >> > >>> > > we> > are > surrounded now by 'hungry gods'. The Khandava-daha > >> > >>> continues.> > >> > >>> > >> > >> > >>> > > > Be it Chengara > (thanks, Anivar Aravind for keeping us updated > >> > about> > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > the > >> > >>> > > land struggle in > Kerala, where the ruling CPI(M) led Left Front> > >> > > >> > is > >> > >>> > intent > >> > >>> > > on displacing > indigenous communities from their land), or> > > >> Singur > >> > >>> > (where > >> > >>> > > again, the ruling > CPI(M) wants to gift land 'free'> to a> > > >> > gigantic > >> > >>> > > corporation or > Amarnath, - the issues - remain the same -> > to > >> do > >> > >>> with > >> > >>> > > state mediated > acquisition of land, and the sequestering> > of > >> > either > >> > >>> > > cultivator's land, > or a natural commons into some form of> > > >> > 'gated' > >> > >>> and > >> > >>> > > 'fenced' > land.> >> > There has been some premature media > spin > >> > around > >> > >>> the > >> > >>> > > 'accord' > that> has> > been reached with the Shree Amarnath > Yatra > >> > >>> > Sangharsh > >> > >>> > > Samiti based in> > > Jammu. On the face of it, the accord appears > >> to > >> > >>> grant > >> > >>> > a > >> > >>> > > limited usage> > > right to the Shree Amarnath Shrine Board. On > >> > closer > >> > >>> > reading > >> > >>> > > of the> > text > however, it becomes evident that the terms of > >> this > >> > >>> > 'accord'> > >> > >>> > > are> > actually > even more invasive than was the case with the > >> > >>> substance > >> > >>> > of> > >> > >>> > > > the original > gubernatorial 'land transfer' order in May.> > >> > > >> I > >> > am > >> > >>> > > enclosing below - an > article by A. G. Noorani, a well known> > > >> > legal > >> > >>> > > historian and > practitioner of constitutional law, titled> > 'An > >> > >>> Immoral > >> > >>> > and > >> > >>> > > Illegal Accord' > which was published in the Greater> > Kashmir > >> > >>> newspaper > >> > >>> > > today. It is available > on line at -> > > >> > >>> > > > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?> > > >> > >>> > > > Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> >> > > Noorani carefully reads the > >> > terms > >> > >>> of > >> > >>> > the > >> > >>> > > Amarnath Accord in > this> > article. As I had pointed out before > >> on > >> > >>> this > >> > >>> > list > >> > >>> > > (in my second post> > > (dated 15th August, 2008) in the thread - > >> > 'Gun > >> > >>> > Salutes > >> > >>> > > for August> > > 15' in response to Sonia Jabbar and Aditya Raj > >> Kaul - > >> > >>> the > >> > >>> > > anger in> > > Kashmir has a lot to do with the arbitrary > >> acquisition > >> > of > >> > >>> > land - > >> > >>> > > I> > had shown, > using state government figures, how the > >> equivalent > >> > of > >> > >>> > one> > > >> > >>> > > in ten fruit orchards > can be said to be under the occupation of > >> > the> > > >> > >>> > Armed > >> > >>> > > Forces. The > 'Amarnath Land Transfer' issue needs to be seen> > in> > >> > > >> > >>> this > >> > >>> > > context.> >> > > As long as that anger (regarding the alienation > >> of > >> > >>> land) > >> > >>> > is > >> > >>> > > not> > > addressed, the people of Kashmir will have no reason, in > >> my> > >> > > > >> > >>> > > estimation, to think > of themselves as anything but under a > >> brutal > >> > and> > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > > unrelenting > occupation. The current 'Amarnath Accord' in my > >> view,> > >> > > > >> > >>> > worsens > >> > >>> > > the situation, and can > alienate the people of Kashmir (for> > > >> the > >> > >>> reasons > >> > >>> > > that Noorani > underlines below) even more. As such, it can> > > >> only > >> > be > >> > >>> > viewed > >> > >>> > > as yet another > provocation, yet another disaster, in> > the long > >> > and > >> > >>> > > undistinguished record > of the Government of India's> > tragic > >> > >>> blundering > >> > >>> > on > >> > >>> > > Kashmir. It cannot but > prove to be divisive in a> > situation > >> that > >> > >>> > urgently > >> > >>> > > requires the > opposite.> >> > regards> >> > > Shuddha> >> > > >> > >>> > > > >> > > ====================================================================== > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> > > ==> > > =======================> >> > An Immoral and > Illegal > >> Accord> > >> > > > >> > >>> > Greater > >> > >>> > > Kashmir, September 03, > 2008> > A G NOORANI> >> > Srinagar, Sep > >> 2: > >> > The > >> > >>> > accord > >> > >>> > > between the Jammu and > Kashmir government> > and the Shri > >> Amarnath > >> > >>> Yatra > >> > >>> > > Sangharsh Samiti on 31 > August is far> > worse than the > >> government's > >> > >>> order > >> > >>> > > only three months > earlier on 26> > May. It grants the SAYSS > >> > >>> concessions > >> > >>> > >beyond what the May > order did.> > It is one-sided and marks an > >> > abject > >> > >>> > > surrender to violence, > blockade> > and to communal forces. The > >> > >>> > differences > >> > >>> > > between the order and > accord> > are glaring. Here is a list:> >> > >> > > >> > 1. > >> > >>> The > >> > >>> > > order was made > pursuant to a decision on 20 May by the cabinet> > >> > > >> > in > >> > >>> > which > >> > >>> > > both Jammu and Kashmir > were represented. The accord> > > >> completely > >> > >>> ignores > >> > >>> > > Kashmir where the land > is to be given. Jammu alone> > was > >> > represented. > >> > >>> A > >> > >>> > > week earlier, there > was a clampdown in the Valley> > and top > >> > leaders > >> > >>> were > >> > >>> > > arrested.> >> > > 2. Even the controversial order nowhere used the > >> > word > >> > >>> > > > "exclusive".> > The SAYSS felt so emboldened > as to demand it and > >> > >>> threaten > >> > >>> > to > >> > >>> > > wreck> > the > deal if it was not conceded. The government yielded > >> in > >> > >>> the > >> > >>> > > early> > hours > of 31 August. Para 6A says that the Government > >> > "shall > >> > >>> set > >> > >>> > > aside> > for use > by Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board exclusively the > >> > land > >> > >>> in> > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> > > Baltal and > Domail". This order unknown anywhere in the world > is> > >> > > >> > >>> > cloaked > >> > >>> > > under a lie by calling > it "traditionally under use for the> > > >> > annual > >> > >>> > yatra > >> > >>> > > purpose". The > traditional route for over a century is> > the > >> > Pahalgam > >> > >>> > route. > >> > >>> > > The Baltal route is a > recent demand. It was> > regarded by the > >> Army > >> > >>> and > >> > >>> > > Nitish Sengupta Report > as dangerous. It is> > also unnecessary > >> if > >> > the > >> > >>> > limit > >> > >>> > > of yatris set by the > Report (1 lakh) is> > observed.> >> > 3. > >> This > >> > >>> > violates > >> > >>> > > the citizen's > fundamental right under Art. 19 (1) D> > to move > >> > freely > >> > >>> > > throughout India. The > demand of exclusivity was not> > made even > >> in > >> > >>> May > >> > >>> > 2008 > >> > >>> > > or in decades earlier. > It is pure communal> > aggression using > >> the > >> > >>> yatra > >> > >>> > for > >> > >>> > > political > demonstration not religious> > piety.> >> > > 4. The > >> > duration > >> > >>> of > >> > >>> > use > >> > >>> > > is widened to cover > pre and post yatra period.> > Para 6 C first > >> > says > >> > >>> > that > >> > >>> > > the land will be used > "for the duration of> > the yatra" > >> including > >> > the > >> > >>> > > period of preparations > and winding up. But> > the very next para > >> > has > >> > >>> > these > >> > >>> > > sinister words: > "The aforesaid land> > shall be used according > >> to > >> > the > >> > >>> > > Board's > requirements from time to> > time, including for the > >> > >>> following". > >> > >>> > > There follow 9 > measures including> > construction, setting up of > >> > the > >> > >>> > sheds > >> > >>> > > and shops etc. These > can be> > done even beyond the yatra period > >> > "from > >> > >>> > time > >> > >>> > > to time" and > "according> > to the Board's > requirements"; may be > >> all > >> > >>> the > >> > >>> > year > >> > >>> > > around.> >> > > 5. Para 8 of the order insisted that the land > >> "shall > >> > >>> > return" > >> > >>> > > to the> > State. > This is dropped in the accord. This > >> accomplishes > >> > S.K. > >> > >>> > > Sinha's> > > objective— permanent use the year round.> >> > > 6. > >> Also > >> > >>> dropped > >> > >>> > > totally is Para 4 on > payment for user.> >> > 7. Dropped too is > >> Para > >> > 6. > >> > >>> An > >> > >>> > > undertaking of > "foolproof measures> > against water pollution > >> and > >> > Para > >> > >>> 7 > >> > >>> > on > >> > >>> > > payment of fine for > damage to> > the forest. There is a pious > >> > >>> provision > >> > >>> > in > >> > >>> > > accord Para 6 C (ix) > among> > the objectives of land user; > >> namely > >> > >>> > > "undertaking > measures relating to> > … preservation of > ecology" > >> > etc. > >> > >>> > Breach > >> > >>> > > entails no fine.> > >> > 8. The order of 26 May was rescinded on 1 > >> > July. > >> > >>> > The > >> > >>> > > accord will> > > require a fresh order to implement it. By itself > >> the > >> > >>> > accord > >> > >>> > > has no> > legal > force. Section 2(a) of the J&K Forest > >> > (Conservation) > >> > >>> Act > >> > >>> > > 1997> > says > "the Government shall not, except on a resolution > >> of > >> > the > >> > >>> > > Council> > of > Ministers based on the advice of the Advisory > >> > >>> Committee"> > > >> > >>> > > constituted under the > Act "make any order directing that any > >> > forest> > > >> > >>> > land > >> > >>> > > or any portion thereof > may be used for any non-forest purpose".> > >> > > >> > The > >> > >>> > > earlier phrase > "Council of ministers" merely was revised by > an> > >> > > >> > >>> > amendment > >> > >>> > > in 2001 and the Forest > Advisory Committee's advice was> > added > >> and > >> > >>> made > >> > >>> > > mandatory. > "Council of Ministers" is specific. It is> > > >> different > >> > from > >> > >>> > "J&K > >> > >>> > > Government" whose > powers vest now in the> governor> > alone. The > >> > law > >> > >>> > > intentionally provides > the resolution as a safeguard.> > This > >> > Council > >> > >>> can > >> > >>> > > come into existence > only after the next elections.> > In any > >> case > >> > the > >> > >>> > Forest > >> > >>> > > Advisory Committees > advice on 12 July 2007> > cannot apply to > >> this > >> > new > >> > >>> > > accord which must be > vetted afresh by that> > Committee. It was > >> > given > >> > >>> > before > >> > >>> > > the Supreme > Court's final judgment in> > the T M Godavarman > case > >> on > >> > 23 > >> > >>> > > November 2007 which > lays down the law> > and makes important > >> > >>> observations > >> > >>> > on > >> > >>> > > balancing development > with> > protection of environment. Failure > >> to > >> > >>> > consider > >> > >>> > > it vitiates the> > > decision. Precisely based on > >> misrepresentation > >> > of > >> > >>> > opinion > >> > >>> > > of the> > deputy > CM Muzaffar Hussain Beg and advocate general > >> Altaf > >> > >>> Naik > >> > >>> > > both> > of which > were given in entirely difference cases.> >> > > >> The > >> > >>> > accord > >> > >>> > > lacks legal efficacy > as well as moral and political> > > >> legitimacy. > >> > Any > >> > >>> > order > >> > >>> > > in its implementation > will be void in law. It> > is a pity that > >> the > >> > >>> state > >> > >>> > > should bend all rules > to buy peace with> > communal forces > >> > including > >> > >>> > promise > >> > >>> > > to consider > compensation for law-> > breakers. What of > >> compensation > >> > to > >> > >>> > the > >> > >>> > > Valley for the > blockade? The> > parivar in Jammu has already > >> begun > >> > >>> asking > >> > >>> > > for more. The > Government> > has not bought peace but trouble. It > >> is > >> > >>> > > gunah-e-bey lazzat > (sin> > without any taste.)> >> > If the > >> state > >> > can > >> > >>> > thus > >> > >>> > > bend its knees before > the Sangh parivar on an> > issue like > >> this, > >> > what > >> > >>> > hopes > >> > >>> > > of justice can > Kashmiris entertain when> > it comes to restoring > >> > the > >> > >>> > raped > >> > >>> > > Article 370 to a > status of worth and> > respect?> >> > > END> >> > > >> > >>> > > > >> > > ====================================================================== > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> > > ==> > > =======================> >> >> >> > > >> > >>> > > > _________________________________________> > > reader-list: an > >> open > >> > >>> > discussion > >> > >>> > > list on media and the > city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To > >> > >>> > subscribe: > >> > >>> > > send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > >> subscribe > >> > in > >> > >>> the > >> > >>> > > subject header.> > > To unsubscribe: > >> > >>> > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > List > >> > archive: > >> > >>> < > >> > >>> > > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > > Shuddhabrata > >> > >>> Sengupta> > >> > >>> > > The Sarai Programme at > CSDS> Raqs Media Collective> > >> > shuddha at sarai.net > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > > www.sarai.net> > www.raqsmediacollective.net> > > > >> > >>> > > > _________________________________________> reader-list: > an open > >> > >>> > discussion > >> > >>> > > list on media and the > city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To > >> > subscribe: > >> > >>> > send > >> > >>> > > an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in> > >> the > >> > >>> subject > >> > >>> > > header.> To > unsubscribe: > >> > >>> > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List > >> > archive: < > >> > >>> > > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > > > > > >> > >>> > > > _________________________________________> reader-list: > an open > >> > >>> > discussion > >> > >>> > > list on media and the > city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To > >> > subscribe: > >> > >>> > send > >> > >>> > > an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > >> > >>> subject > >> > >>> > > header.> To > unsubscribe: > >> > >>> > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List > >> > archive: < > >> > >>> > > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > >>> > > > >> > _________________________________________________________________ > >> > >>> > > Want to explore the > world? Visit MSN Travel for the best deals. > >> > >>> > > > http://in.msn.com/coxandkings > >> > >>> > > > _________________________________________ > >> > >>> > > reader-list: an open > discussion list on media and the city. > >> > >>> > > Critiques & > Collaborations > >> > >>> > > To subscribe: send an > email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > >> > >>> > > subscribe in the > subject header. > >> > >>> > > To unsubscribe: > >> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > >>> > > List archive: > > >> > >>> > > _________________________________________ > >> > >>> > reader-list: an open > discussion list on media and the city. > >> > >>> > Critiques & > Collaborations > >> > >>> > To subscribe: send an email > to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > >>> > subscribe in the subject > header. > >> > >>> > To unsubscribe: > >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > >>> > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> -- > >> > >>> Rashneek Kher > >> > >>> Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten > Human Tragedy > >> > >>> > http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com > >> > >>> > http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com > >> > >>> > _________________________________________ > >> > >>> reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city. > >> > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >> > >>> To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > >>> subscribe in the subject header. > >> > >>> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > >>> List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > _________________________________________ > >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on > media and the city. > >> > > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > > >> > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media > and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sun Sep 7 14:04:24 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 14:04:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord (Nobody) In-Reply-To: <362469.62587.qm@web54202.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <6b79f1a70809061229n44e9f372i200d4250bf79a3ca@mail.gmail.com> <362469.62587.qm@web54202.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70809070134k4be5778eg79f9a5c3b518d2b5@mail.gmail.com> Baruk, For "nobodies" like you I have written about Nooranis observation. Pls check http://thekashmir.wordpress.com/2008/09/07/noorani/ And if "nobodies" are no expert...they better not become"somebody" about Kashmir issue. And unfortuantely these nobody have as much understanding about Kashmir as I have of the pictures and poems on your blog. So i dont even comment on that. I hope this does make you understand ? Pawan On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 1:39 PM, Baruk S. Jacob wrote: > pawan, > > there are a lot of us on this list who are "nobody" in the kashmir issue. > if your discussion is confined to who you define as "somebody", maybe you > could send THEM your mails. leave us nobodies out! > > ~baruk > > http://bottlebroke.blogspot.com > > > --- On Sun, 9/7/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > From: Pawan Durani > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath > Accord > > To: "Aarti Sethi" > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > Date: Sunday, September 7, 2008, 12:59 AM > > Aarti, > > Since you r NOBODY in Kashmir issue, you re irrelevant when > > it comes to > > discussing the issues and the personalities involved. > > > > And I wonder why Inder Ji does not respect himself by > > suffixing Balasaheb or > > Advani Ji with Sahib. > > > > I know Murtaza and Yasin Malik better than they know > > themselves and to know > > why I know so much about these liars ...you better know > > me. > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 12:52 AM, Aarti Sethi > > wrote: > > > > > Pawan, > > > > > > How is working with a brussel's based organisation > > a statement about > > > someone's credibility? Is a job being a "paid > > agent'? Then we are all "paid > > > agents" of someone or the other. The kashmir > > affairs website says quite > > > clearly that it is a non-funded organisation. If you > > know something the rest > > > of us don't, then maybe you should share it with > > the list. Otherwise your > > > attack on Murtaza makes no sense whatsoever. > > > > > > > > > Aarti > > > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 9:18 PM, inder salim > > wrote: > > >> > > >> > Dear Rashneek > > >> > > > >> > some times back Mr. Kshmendra said something > > similar to me, > > >> > > > >> > " you deserve to be ignored " > > >> > > > >> > and now it is you who said it to Shuddha. > > >> > > > >> > I beleive, anybody who had developed a > > dislike for a particular person > > >> > may simply prese the botton ' delete' > > >> > > > >> > it is too easy. > > >> > because to express the anger on the list is > > worst than even 2+2=5. > > >> > > > >> > now, coming back to the basic question of > > 'Land and Freedom in > > >> > Kashmir' as seen in the present and > > beyond: > > >> > > > >> > We all know what is the the stand of an > > Nationlaist Indian. There is > > >> > nothing new, What you are saying is no > > differnt from Man Mohan Singh > > >> > ji, our PM. > > >> > > > >> > But if the religion of all Kashmiris is > > ' AZADI then how to convert > > >> > them all into other religion which is Indian > > Nationalism in this case. > > >> > > > >> > I think it is very simple. Army and police > > and other reasoning has > > >> > not helped us. > > >> > I too would like to see a change of heart in > > kashmir. but, after 1990 > > >> > that possiblity looks now remote. Whatever > > the reasons... > > >> > > > >> > Yes, Kashmiri pandits have a legal claim in > > the valley, but that can > > >> > be the part of a real discussion, as and when > > it happens between the > > >> > representatives of all the inhabitants of the > > disputed territory. > > >> > > > >> > Now disturbes my personally, is that the fact > > that the Hindu Right > > >> > wing has politically appropriated the whole > > intellectual worth of > > >> > Kashmiri pandits. which is not different from > > Jamat-i-Islami's effort > > >> > to represent the whole of AZADI in kashmir. > > Kashmiri pandits need to > > >> > write about it boldly. And if there is none, > > they one Advani-cum-Modi > > >> > is enough to represent them. That will be > > unfortunate. > > >> > > > >> > We all know how people in kahsmir are > > handling this issue. Everything > > >> > is hazy, but we have recently witnessed how > > Geelani sahib had to > > >> > retract from his claim of total > > representation. So similarly you too > > >> > need to think that every kashmniri pandit is > > not necessarly a > > >> > VHP/BJP/BajrangDal/ShivSanik lover. Let us > > respect the possiblity. > > >> > > > >> > then that will amount to 2+2=4 > > >> > > > >> > with love > > >> > is > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Just press the delete button, anything that > > you consider > > >> > On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 8:14 PM, Aditya Raj > > Kaul < > > >> kauladityaraj at gmail.com> > > >> > wrote: > > >> > > Dear Aarti, > > >> > > > > >> > > You are so right. We just can't > > ignore Shuddha's posts on this forum. > > >> He > > >> > > needs to be corrected from time to time, > > hence, we just can't remain > > >> > silent. > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > Be careful Aarti.Disinformation spread > > can be dangerous. > > >> > > > > >> > > Warm Regards, > > >> > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > >> > > > > >> > > On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 12:31 PM, Aarti > > Sethi > > >> > wrote: > > >> > > > > >> > >> Really? Is that so? In which case > > every post shuddha writes, rife > > >> with > > >> > >> inaccuracies and and ignorance, > > should immediately get a response > > >> from > > >> > you > > >> > >> setting the record straight. > > Instead, what we witness is a deafening > > >> > >> silence. Be careful and intelligent > > about whom you choose as your > > >> > >> adversaries Rashneek. And I think > > you are well aware of whose posts > > >> are > > >> > >> generally ignored on this list and > > it certainly isn't Shuddha. > > >> > >> > > >> > >> regards > > >> > >> Aarti > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 11:19 AM, > > rashneek kher > > >> > wrote: > > >> > >> > > >> > >>> All that notwithstanding, > > Shuddha's knowledge and understanding of > > >> > either > > >> > >>> history or politics is of > > Kashmir is so poor or so full of > > >> inaccuries > > >> > >>> (intentional as well ignorant) > > that it is time we start ignoring his > > >> > posts > > >> > >>> on Kashmir. > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> Regards > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> Rashneek > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 8:24 PM, > > Aditya Raj Kaul < > > >> > kauladityaraj at gmail.com > > >> > >>> >wrote: > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > And, In a recent lecture in > > Jamia University, he was no different. > > >> > >>> > Advocating pan-Islamist > > movement in Kashmir. > > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> > On 9/3/08, Lalit Ambardar > > wrote: > > >> > >>> > > > > >> > >>> > > It is not > > surprising.AG Noorani is a known sympathiser of the > > >> > Kashmiri > > >> > >>> > pan > > >> > >>> > > Islamists & their > > cause. He ran a campaign series in support of > > >> > the > > >> > >>> > > separatists in HT for > > years .The very fact that Noorani has > > >> chosen > > >> > to > > >> > >>> > call > > >> > >>> > > Jammuites as > > 'communal forces' & 'parivar' & the > > accord itself > > >> as > > >> > >>> > > 'gunah-e-bey > > lazzat' & describe those who attempt to seek > > "azadi > > >> > -bara > > >> > >>> -e > > >> > >>> > > -Islam" as > > 'victims' says it all. > > >> > >>> > > > > >> > >>> > > Noorani once went > > overboard in " don't be fence-sitters " (HT > > >> New > > >> > >>> > Delhi/May > > >> > >>> > > 8, 2007) in his > > appreciation of Sayad Sallahudin of HM & the > > >> > >>> al-Qeada > > >> > >>> > > affiliate LeT. In a > > bizarre coincidence , the day LeT chief > > >> > allegedly > > >> > >>> > > assured some Gen. > > Patankar of his willingness to come to India > > >> for > > >> > >>> talks > > >> > >>> > > (...????....) as > > claimed by Noorani in the article , that very > > >> day > > >> > >>> Hafeez > > >> > >>> > > Sayad confessed to the > > reporters in Islamabad about the > > >> existence > > >> > of > > >> > >>> > > terrorist > > infrastructure in Pakistan & declared his resolve to > > >> > carry > > >> > >>> on > > >> > >>> > the > > >> > >>> > > 'jihad' to its > > logical conclusion (Ref. TNN/ Times of India, > > >> > DEL/May8' > > >> > >>> > 07/ > > >> > >>> > > page no.13). > > >> > >>> > > LA > > >> > >>> > > > > >> > >>> > > > > >> > >>> > > > > >> > >>> > > > > >> > >>> > > > > >> > >>> > > > Date: Wed, 3 Sep > > 2008 03:55:11 -0700> From: > > >> > kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> > To: > > >> > >>> > > shuddha at sarai.net> > > CC: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: > > >> > >>> [Reader-list] > > >> > >>> > > Noorani Reads the Fine > > Print of the Amarnath Accord> > > > > >> > >>> > > > > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> > > >> > > > >> > > > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1 > > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> > > > > > >> > >>> > > > > --- On Wed, > > 9/3/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta < > > >> shuddha at sarai.net> > > >> > >>> > wrote:> > > >> > >>> > > > From: > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Subject: > > Re: > > >> > >>> > > [Reader-list] Noorani > > Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath > > >> Accord> > > >> > To: > > >> > >>> > > "Shuddhabrata > > Sengupta" > Cc: "Sarai > > list" < > > >> > >>> > > > > reader-list at sarai.net>> Date: Wednesday, September 3, > > 2008, > > >> 4:07 > > >> > PM> > > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> > > Dear all,> > The > > link to the Noorani article in the Greater > > >> Kashmir > > >> > >>> > > Newspaper in > my > > earlier post got inadvertently truncated. Here > > >> is > > >> > >>> the > > >> > >>> > > correct link.> > > > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp? > > >> > > > >> > >>> > > > > Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> > Thanks, Tilak > > Upadhyay for > > >> > pointing > > >> > >>> this > > >> > >>> > > out.> > > > best,> > Shuddha> > On 03-Sep-08, at 3:16 PM, > > >> Shuddhabrata > > >> > >>> > Sengupta > > >> > >>> > > wrote: Dear all> > > > > Dear All,> >> > An unusual intensity > > of > > >> hunger > > >> > >>> for > > >> > >>> > land > > >> > >>> > > unites corporations, > > state> > agencies and shrine boards in > > >> India. > > >> > >>> > Captains > > >> > >>> > > of Industry,> > > > politicians and land hungry divines seem to be > > >> more > > >> > >>> > > interested in> > > > acrage than in anything else. The Mahabharata > > >> > >>> mentions > > >> > >>> > the > > >> > >>> > > burning of> > > > the Khandava forest to appease a hungry god, > > >> > >>> inaugurating a > > >> > >>> > > long> > history > > of burnt and erased forests and commons. It > > >> appears > > >> > as > > >> > >>> it > > >> > >>> > > we> > are > > surrounded now by 'hungry gods'. The Khandava-daha > > >> > >>> continues.> > > >> > >>> > >> > > >> > >>> > > > Be it Chengara > > (thanks, Anivar Aravind for keeping us updated > > >> > about> > > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> > the > > >> > >>> > > land struggle in > > Kerala, where the ruling CPI(M) led Left Front> > > >> > > > >> > is > > >> > >>> > intent > > >> > >>> > > on displacing > > indigenous communities from their land), or> > > > >> Singur > > >> > >>> > (where > > >> > >>> > > again, the ruling > > CPI(M) wants to gift land 'free'> to a> > > > >> > gigantic > > >> > >>> > > corporation or > > Amarnath, - the issues - remain the same -> > to > > >> do > > >> > >>> with > > >> > >>> > > state mediated > > acquisition of land, and the sequestering> > of > > >> > either > > >> > >>> > > cultivator's land, > > or a natural commons into some form of> > > > >> > 'gated' > > >> > >>> and > > >> > >>> > > 'fenced' > > land.> >> > There has been some premature media > > spin > > >> > around > > >> > >>> the > > >> > >>> > > 'accord' > > that> has> > been reached with the Shree Amarnath > > Yatra > > >> > >>> > Sangharsh > > >> > >>> > > Samiti based in> > > > Jammu. On the face of it, the accord appears > > >> to > > >> > >>> grant > > >> > >>> > a > > >> > >>> > > limited usage> > > > right to the Shree Amarnath Shrine Board. On > > >> > closer > > >> > >>> > reading > > >> > >>> > > of the> > text > > however, it becomes evident that the terms of > > >> this > > >> > >>> > 'accord'> > > >> > >>> > > are> > actually > > even more invasive than was the case with the > > >> > >>> substance > > >> > >>> > of> > > >> > >>> > > > the original > > gubernatorial 'land transfer' order in May.> > > >> > > > >> I > > >> > am > > >> > >>> > > enclosing below - an > > article by A. G. Noorani, a well known> > > > >> > legal > > >> > >>> > > historian and > > practitioner of constitutional law, titled> > 'An > > >> > >>> Immoral > > >> > >>> > and > > >> > >>> > > Illegal Accord' > > which was published in the Greater> > Kashmir > > >> > >>> newspaper > > >> > >>> > > today. It is available > > on line at -> > > > >> > >>> > > > > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?> > > > >> > >>> > > > > Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> >> > > > Noorani carefully reads the > > >> > terms > > >> > >>> of > > >> > >>> > the > > >> > >>> > > Amarnath Accord in > > this> > article. As I had pointed out before > > >> on > > >> > >>> this > > >> > >>> > list > > >> > >>> > > (in my second post> > > > (dated 15th August, 2008) in the thread - > > >> > 'Gun > > >> > >>> > Salutes > > >> > >>> > > for August> > > > 15' in response to Sonia Jabbar and Aditya Raj > > >> Kaul - > > >> > >>> the > > >> > >>> > > anger in> > > > Kashmir has a lot to do with the arbitrary > > >> acquisition > > >> > of > > >> > >>> > land - > > >> > >>> > > I> > had shown, > > using state government figures, how the > > >> equivalent > > >> > of > > >> > >>> > one> > > > >> > >>> > > in ten fruit orchards > > can be said to be under the occupation of > > >> > the> > > > >> > >>> > Armed > > >> > >>> > > Forces. The > > 'Amarnath Land Transfer' issue needs to be seen> > > in> > > >> > > > >> > >>> this > > >> > >>> > > context.> >> > > > As long as that anger (regarding the alienation > > >> of > > >> > >>> land) > > >> > >>> > is > > >> > >>> > > not> > > > addressed, the people of Kashmir will have no reason, in > > >> my> > > >> > > > > >> > >>> > > estimation, to think > > of themselves as anything but under a > > >> brutal > > >> > and> > > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> > > unrelenting > > occupation. The current 'Amarnath Accord' in my > > >> view,> > > >> > > > > >> > >>> > worsens > > >> > >>> > > the situation, and can > > alienate the people of Kashmir (for> > > > >> the > > >> > >>> reasons > > >> > >>> > > that Noorani > > underlines below) even more. As such, it can> > > > >> only > > >> > be > > >> > >>> > viewed > > >> > >>> > > as yet another > > provocation, yet another disaster, in> > the long > > >> > and > > >> > >>> > > undistinguished record > > of the Government of India's> > tragic > > >> > >>> blundering > > >> > >>> > on > > >> > >>> > > Kashmir. It cannot but > > prove to be divisive in a> > situation > > >> that > > >> > >>> > urgently > > >> > >>> > > requires the > > opposite.> >> > regards> >> > > > Shuddha> >> > > > >> > >>> > > > > >> > > > ====================================================================== > > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> > > > > >> > >>> > > ==> > > > =======================> >> > An Immoral and > > Illegal > > >> Accord> > > >> > > > > >> > >>> > Greater > > >> > >>> > > Kashmir, September 03, > > 2008> > A G NOORANI> >> > Srinagar, Sep > > >> 2: > > >> > The > > >> > >>> > accord > > >> > >>> > > between the Jammu and > > Kashmir government> > and the Shri > > >> Amarnath > > >> > >>> Yatra > > >> > >>> > > Sangharsh Samiti on 31 > > August is far> > worse than the > > >> government's > > >> > >>> order > > >> > >>> > > only three months > > earlier on 26> > May. It grants the SAYSS > > >> > >>> concessions > > >> > >>> > > beyond what the May > > order did.> > It is one-sided and marks an > > >> > abject > > >> > >>> > > surrender to violence, > > blockade> > and to communal forces. The > > >> > >>> > differences > > >> > >>> > > between the order and > > accord> > are glaring. Here is a list:> >> > > >> > > > >> > 1. > > >> > >>> The > > >> > >>> > > order was made > > pursuant to a decision on 20 May by the cabinet> > > >> > > > >> > in > > >> > >>> > which > > >> > >>> > > both Jammu and Kashmir > > were represented. The accord> > > > >> completely > > >> > >>> ignores > > >> > >>> > > Kashmir where the land > > is to be given. Jammu alone> > was > > >> > represented. > > >> > >>> A > > >> > >>> > > week earlier, there > > was a clampdown in the Valley> > and top > > >> > leaders > > >> > >>> were > > >> > >>> > > arrested.> >> > > > 2. Even the controversial order nowhere used the > > >> > word > > >> > >>> > > > > "exclusive".> > The SAYSS felt so emboldened > > as to demand it and > > >> > >>> threaten > > >> > >>> > to > > >> > >>> > > wreck> > the > > deal if it was not conceded. The government yielded > > >> in > > >> > >>> the > > >> > >>> > > early> > hours > > of 31 August. Para 6A says that the Government > > >> > "shall > > >> > >>> set > > >> > >>> > > aside> > for use > > by Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board exclusively the > > >> > land > > >> > >>> in> > > >> > >>> > > > > >> > >>> > > Baltal and > > Domail". This order unknown anywhere in the world > > is> > > >> > > > >> > >>> > cloaked > > >> > >>> > > under a lie by calling > > it "traditionally under use for the> > > > >> > annual > > >> > >>> > yatra > > >> > >>> > > purpose". The > > traditional route for over a century is> > the > > >> > Pahalgam > > >> > >>> > route. > > >> > >>> > > The Baltal route is a > > recent demand. It was> > regarded by the > > >> Army > > >> > >>> and > > >> > >>> > > Nitish Sengupta Report > > as dangerous. It is> > also unnecessary > > >> if > > >> > the > > >> > >>> > limit > > >> > >>> > > of yatris set by the > > Report (1 lakh) is> > observed.> >> > 3. > > >> This > > >> > >>> > violates > > >> > >>> > > the citizen's > > fundamental right under Art. 19 (1) D> > to move > > >> > freely > > >> > >>> > > throughout India. The > > demand of exclusivity was not> > made even > > >> in > > >> > >>> May > > >> > >>> > 2008 > > >> > >>> > > or in decades earlier. > > It is pure communal> > aggression using > > >> the > > >> > >>> yatra > > >> > >>> > for > > >> > >>> > > political > > demonstration not religious> > piety.> >> > > > 4. The > > >> > duration > > >> > >>> of > > >> > >>> > use > > >> > >>> > > is widened to cover > > pre and post yatra period.> > Para 6 C first > > >> > says > > >> > >>> > that > > >> > >>> > > the land will be used > > "for the duration of> > the yatra" > > >> including > > >> > the > > >> > >>> > > period of preparations > > and winding up. But> > the very next para > > >> > has > > >> > >>> > these > > >> > >>> > > sinister words: > > "The aforesaid land> > shall be used according > > >> to > > >> > the > > >> > >>> > > Board's > > requirements from time to> > time, including for the > > >> > >>> following". > > >> > >>> > > There follow 9 > > measures including> > construction, setting up of > > >> > the > > >> > >>> > sheds > > >> > >>> > > and shops etc. These > > can be> > done even beyond the yatra period > > >> > "from > > >> > >>> > time > > >> > >>> > > to time" and > > "according> > to the Board's > > requirements"; may be > > >> all > > >> > >>> the > > >> > >>> > year > > >> > >>> > > around.> >> > > > 5. Para 8 of the order insisted that the land > > >> "shall > > >> > >>> > return" > > >> > >>> > > to the> > State. > > This is dropped in the accord. This > > >> accomplishes > > >> > S.K. > > >> > >>> > > Sinha's> > > > objective— permanent use the year round.> >> > > > 6. > > >> Also > > >> > >>> dropped > > >> > >>> > > totally is Para 4 on > > payment for user.> >> > 7. Dropped too is > > >> Para > > >> > 6. > > >> > >>> An > > >> > >>> > > undertaking of > > "foolproof measures> > against water pollution > > >> and > > >> > Para > > >> > >>> 7 > > >> > >>> > on > > >> > >>> > > payment of fine for > > damage to> > the forest. There is a pious > > >> > >>> provision > > >> > >>> > in > > >> > >>> > > accord Para 6 C (ix) > > among> > the objectives of land user; > > >> namely > > >> > >>> > > "undertaking > > measures relating to> > … preservation of > > ecology" > > >> > etc. > > >> > >>> > Breach > > >> > >>> > > entails no fine.> > > >> > 8. The order of 26 May was rescinded on 1 > > >> > July. > > >> > >>> > The > > >> > >>> > > accord will> > > > require a fresh order to implement it. By itself > > >> the > > >> > >>> > accord > > >> > >>> > > has no> > legal > > force. Section 2(a) of the J&K Forest > > >> > (Conservation) > > >> > >>> Act > > >> > >>> > > 1997> > says > > "the Government shall not, except on a resolution > > >> of > > >> > the > > >> > >>> > > Council> > of > > Ministers based on the advice of the Advisory > > >> > >>> Committee"> > > > >> > >>> > > constituted under the > > Act "make any order directing that any > > >> > forest> > > > >> > >>> > land > > >> > >>> > > or any portion thereof > > may be used for any non-forest purpose".> > > >> > > > >> > The > > >> > >>> > > earlier phrase > > "Council of ministers" merely was revised by > > an> > > >> > > > >> > >>> > amendment > > >> > >>> > > in 2001 and the Forest > > Advisory Committee's advice was> > added > > >> and > > >> > >>> made > > >> > >>> > > mandatory. > > "Council of Ministers" is specific. It is> > > > >> different > > >> > from > > >> > >>> > "J&K > > >> > >>> > > Government" whose > > powers vest now in the> governor> > alone. The > > >> > law > > >> > >>> > > intentionally provides > > the resolution as a safeguard.> > This > > >> > Council > > >> > >>> can > > >> > >>> > > come into existence > > only after the next elections.> > In any > > >> case > > >> > the > > >> > >>> > Forest > > >> > >>> > > Advisory Committees > > advice on 12 July 2007> > cannot apply to > > >> this > > >> > new > > >> > >>> > > accord which must be > > vetted afresh by that> > Committee. It was > > >> > given > > >> > >>> > before > > >> > >>> > > the Supreme > > Court's final judgment in> > the T M Godavarman > > case > > >> on > > >> > 23 > > >> > >>> > > November 2007 which > > lays down the law> > and makes important > > >> > >>> observations > > >> > >>> > on > > >> > >>> > > balancing development > > with> > protection of environment. Failure > > >> to > > >> > >>> > consider > > >> > >>> > > it vitiates the> > > > decision. Precisely based on > > >> misrepresentation > > >> > of > > >> > >>> > opinion > > >> > >>> > > of the> > deputy > > CM Muzaffar Hussain Beg and advocate general > > >> Altaf > > >> > >>> Naik > > >> > >>> > > both> > of which > > were given in entirely difference cases.> >> > > > >> The > > >> > >>> > accord > > >> > >>> > > lacks legal efficacy > > as well as moral and political> > > > >> legitimacy. > > >> > Any > > >> > >>> > order > > >> > >>> > > in its implementation > > will be void in law. It> > is a pity that > > >> the > > >> > >>> state > > >> > >>> > > should bend all rules > > to buy peace with> > communal forces > > >> > including > > >> > >>> > promise > > >> > >>> > > to consider > > compensation for law-> > breakers. What of > > >> compensation > > >> > to > > >> > >>> > the > > >> > >>> > > Valley for the > > blockade? The> > parivar in Jammu has already > > >> begun > > >> > >>> asking > > >> > >>> > > for more. The > > Government> > has not bought peace but trouble. It > > >> is > > >> > >>> > > gunah-e-bey lazzat > > (sin> > without any taste.)> >> > If the > > >> state > > >> > can > > >> > >>> > thus > > >> > >>> > > bend its knees before > > the Sangh parivar on an> > issue like > > >> this, > > >> > what > > >> > >>> > hopes > > >> > >>> > > of justice can > > Kashmiris entertain when> > it comes to restoring > > >> > the > > >> > >>> > raped > > >> > >>> > > Article 370 to a > > status of worth and> > respect?> >> > > > END> >> > > > >> > >>> > > > > >> > > > ====================================================================== > > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> > > > > >> > >>> > > ==> > > > =======================> >> >> >> > > > >> > >>> > > > > _________________________________________> > > > reader-list: an > > >> open > > >> > >>> > discussion > > >> > >>> > > list on media and the > > city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To > > >> > >>> > subscribe: > > >> > >>> > > send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > >> subscribe > > >> > in > > >> > >>> the > > >> > >>> > > subject header.> > > > To unsubscribe: > > >> > >>> > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > > List > > >> > archive: > > >> > >>> < > > >> > >>> > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > > > Shuddhabrata > > >> > >>> Sengupta> > > >> > >>> > > The Sarai Programme at > > CSDS> Raqs Media Collective> > > >> > shuddha at sarai.net > > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> > > www.sarai.net> > > www.raqsmediacollective.net> > > > > >> > >>> > > > > _________________________________________> reader-list: > > an open > > >> > >>> > discussion > > >> > >>> > > list on media and the > > city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To > > >> > subscribe: > > >> > >>> > send > > >> > >>> > > an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in> > > >> the > > >> > >>> subject > > >> > >>> > > header.> To > > unsubscribe: > > >> > >>> > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List > > >> > archive: < > > >> > >>> > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > > > > > > > >> > >>> > > > > _________________________________________> reader-list: > > an open > > >> > >>> > discussion > > >> > >>> > > list on media and the > > city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To > > >> > subscribe: > > >> > >>> > send > > >> > >>> > > an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > > >> > >>> subject > > >> > >>> > > header.> To > > unsubscribe: > > >> > >>> > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List > > >> > archive: < > > >> > >>> > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >> > >>> > > > > >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > > >> > >>> > > Want to explore the > > world? Visit MSN Travel for the best deals. > > >> > >>> > > > > http://in.msn.com/coxandkings > > >> > >>> > > > > _________________________________________ > > >> > >>> > > reader-list: an open > > discussion list on media and the city. > > >> > >>> > > Critiques & > > Collaborations > > >> > >>> > > To subscribe: send an > > email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > >> > >>> > > subscribe in the > > subject header. > > >> > >>> > > To unsubscribe: > > >> > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> > >>> > > List archive: > > > > >> > >>> > > > _________________________________________ > > >> > >>> > reader-list: an open > > discussion list on media and the city. > > >> > >>> > Critiques & > > Collaborations > > >> > >>> > To subscribe: send an email > > to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >> > >>> > subscribe in the subject > > header. > > >> > >>> > To unsubscribe: > > >> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> > >>> > List archive: > > > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> -- > > >> > >>> Rashneek Kher > > >> > >>> Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten > > Human Tragedy > > >> > >>> > > http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com > > >> > >>> > > http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com > > >> > >>> > > _________________________________________ > > >> > >>> reader-list: an open discussion > > list on media and the city. > > >> > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > > >> > >>> To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >> > >>> subscribe in the subject header. > > >> > >>> To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> > >>> List archive: > > > > >> > >>> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > > > > _________________________________________ > > >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on > > media and the city. > > >> > > Critiques & Collaborations > > >> > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > > >> > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> > > List archive: > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > -- > > >> > > > >> > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > >> > _________________________________________ > > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media > > and the city. > > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > > >> > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > > >> > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> > List archive: > > > > >> > > > >> _________________________________________ > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > the city. > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > >> To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > >> To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> List archive: > > > > >> > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > > header. > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > From indersalim at gmail.com Sun Sep 7 15:20:43 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 15:20:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions In-Reply-To: <882235.3245.qm@web31812.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <882235.3245.qm@web31812.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70809070250w4bf6132cy5a7d2bef410f7a54@mail.gmail.com> Dear Yousf, Let us keep it simple. I should have used the word ' unwittingly' instead 'boldly' and that might have saved you from writing " I am the last person on earth to condemn artists for having monopoly on liberalism ". I know you are not against artists, and I consider you too an artist in your own unique way. Now you are looking for an alternative, right, take a case like Babri Masjid. The Sang Parivar thought that their sentiments are 'hurt' because a king demolished a temple and constructed a mosque on the same spot. I am not speaking on behalf of Muslims, but on behalf of Liberals, ( as it is convenient to use ) that the mosque should not have been demolished. But the monopoly on 'hurt' scored and we witnessed a monumental tragedy. what was the alternative? There are hundreds of other such examples where this kind of 'hurt' scored and we are reduced to mute spectators. A government, based on a secular constitution should not have given in to this so called 'hurt'. That is my premise. Recently there was an attack on a very small exhibition of prints by Hussain organized by Sahmat. These are not simple hooligans but are from a strong political base with an agenda, to create a panic. They were so daring that they even called the TV channels to document their action. How to denounce that, May be Mr. Ishwar has an answer, People should be told simply that ' freedom of expression' is as important to life as water, food and sleep. Recently, an Italian museum rejected the Pope's desire to remove a frog- Christ sculpture from their display. There was no hue and cry from Christians world. We need to learn from those examples. What is so big about a cartoon. Cartoons are made to bring humour in our lives and not hate. We need to cultivate an accurate sense of 'hurt'. It is time we feel hurt because of immense environmental degradation on our planet. We should be ashamed of our acts against women. We should feel 'hurt' on seeing people begging on the streets. Any answer Mr. Iswar, why Taslima Nasreen was hounded out of Inidia. Both Hussain and Taslima are known for their inaccurate works, but have found a huge support from artists , poets writers and other such segments of our society. are we insane that we support a Taslima and a Hussain, a Chandra Mohan from time to time. We are, indeed a small segment of our society, and if we all don't support this minority within the minority then what we have is complete absence of alternative. Is that what you want for the sake of a ' majority'. Who is afraid of Artists, poets, and dancers? Hussain sahib was once a Rajya Sahba member, and all he did there was drawings of politicians arguing in the parliament. I wish he had drawn them masturbating during sessions. He is less courageous, we all know, but in any case, is he a threat to our society, or someone who announces monetary awards to behead the artist or a writer? Opposing 'freedom of expression' is not a 'view point' but a bully. Of course, artists and poets love audiences, without audiences there is not art and culture, but how come we oppose a change of taste even. Haven't people clapped to something fresh, new and radical, even on the stage when politicians play it out like actors on the stage. People want change, but 'some of well read persons' want to keep us unchanged. Even now we have very few women poets, let alone the past when there were little chances for them to come forward. Males of the family and society were often hurt as and when their daughters would come out in the open. Is it a view point ? We are all here for a change. Let us support the change. Prophets and saints too have been poets in their own unique ways who have always uttered verse with freshness of mood and change. But we simply become worshippers of that change, and obstruct the possibility of change 'unwittingly' Yes, millions go the Haridwar for a sacred dip. But, I guess the dip becomes a very small component of the journey to a pilgrimage . The spectacle of a concentrated human mass is what attracts the people. The urge to brush shoulders with others, new clothes, picnic and exchange of looks with strangers is what seduces the average Indian. that is true, because the pollution level in Ganga does not 'hurt' them in the first place, which proves they are not too serious about the holdy dip. Who is truly religious? The same applies to people who go to Haj. With love is On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 10:13 AM, Ishwar wrote: > Guess I wasn't clear enough in what I intended to convey, and lack of clarity always invites misinterpretation. > > Inder, what made you come to the conclusion that understanding hurt sentiments in religious and other frameworks is tantamount to declaring support for fundamentalism? For that matter, when did understanding anything equated to supporting it? > > As an artist, can I assume that your work would not be received with enthusiasm from every section of the population? That being the case. I think it's vital to understand that the religious communities' hurt comes from something that's fundamental to their current framework, in the local context. Saying 'Dude, everybody gets hurt, so chill' is not quite the answer. > > After respecting the reasoning behind the hate, one might choose to work towards a conversation. I find the comment 'how to > denounce entire majority of religous world who have mononly on 'hurt'"' rather strange. We aren't here to denounce viewpoints are we? I'd thought certain actions are to be denounced, not word views. If that's not the case, how is liberalism any different from religion, the very majority we seek to denounce? > > > P.S: Pardon my ignorance of keywords to express ideas. > > Ishwar > > > Just another resurrected Neozoic Archosaur comics. > http://www.flickr.com/photos/mojosaurus/sets/72157600257724083/ > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: inder salim > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Saturday, September 6, 2008 9:50:56 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions > > Dear Yousuf > this is too sweeping a statement by a well read person like you. > > this also gives us a clue - how often well read people quickly throw > reasoning to dust bins and join hands with those who boldy declare > 'fundamentalsim' as their guiding light on the path of spirituality. > if we condemn artists for having monoply on 'liberalism' then how to > denounce entire majority of religous world who have mononly on 'hurt' > ? Our sufi bhakti traditions were much liberal in their ' ways of > living' than what you consider as offensive. > > this also teachs me that we are basically too small to speak anything > truely about these overwhelming issues through these short cut > discussions, > > Here, i think of paintings, poetry, music dance ( al erotic, sacred > and profane ) and all the eccentric moods of our society, even if ' > well read people' consider it just an entertainment for artists > themselves, and couple of few others in the world. > > We are in a serious trouble. or only I ( artist ) feel it ? > > love > is > > > > On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 7:10 PM, Yousuf wrote: >> Dear Ishwar >> I can't decide whether I agree with you or not, but a friend of mine (to whom I was telling about this discussion) echoes your point. According to him, if the religious people have a monopoly on "hurt", the artists have a monopoly on "taking liberties". So these two "rights" should balance out each other, and no one should complain... >> >> Yousuf >> >> >> --- On Sat, 9/6/08, Ishwar wrote: >> From: Ishwar >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions >> To: "Aarti Sethi" , "inder salim" , "Sarai Reader-list" >> Date: Saturday, September 6, 2008, 6:07 PM >> >> Kudos to a well-written reply, andofcourse, to TeadBeeDi too :) >> >> While we're at it, how about a little bit of thought on this too? >> >> While questioning religious communities' monopoly on "hurt", one >> must also take into consideration frameworks. >> Religious >> frameworks by their very nature have the concept of blasphemy, to >> various degrees, be it 'kadavul kutram' (blasphemous talk against the >> divine) from where I come, to blasphemy laws, etc.wherein the concept >> of individual liberty is weighed down in front of a higher divine. >> >> As >> liberals(or feminists or apathetists, or any ists), we have >> chosen/adopted/devised our own framework which channelises such hurt to >> productive means.The world has other frameworks too. Taking this >> concept of channelising hurt to a different religious framework and >> expecting it to be adopted/respected is as naive as, say, a scientist >> expecting his/her ideas on non-existence of god, or proof of evolution >> to be accepted by the religious community. >> >> That religious frameworks can change is a different discussion altogether. >> >> >> Ishwar >> >> >> Just another resurrected Neozoic Archosaur comics. >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/mojosaurus/sets/72157600257724083/ >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: Aarti Sethi >> To: inder salim >> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >> Sent: Thursday, September 4, 2008 2:39:27 PM >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions >> >> A few thoughts on an interesting discussion. >> >> One term I think that has remained unexamined in this discussion is >> "hurt" >> or "sentiment". By this I mean not an assessment of whether that hurt >> is >> justified, valid etc, who is to decide whether this offends or not, whether >> this is offensive or not, the relative self-sufficiency of value systems and >> speaking across them. But the inherent value of hurt as a positive force in >> itself. Let me try and explain what I mean. >> >> Why is "hurt sentiment" a bad thing in itself? Can having one's >> sentiments >> hurt, sometimes quite badly, not be a positive force? Might it not impell me >> to re-think, or think, about my sentiments in a manner that is creative? >> Maybe those sentiments are better discarded. Maybe my outrage alerts me to a >> violence I have been commiting without realising it. Maybe if more people's >> sentiments were outraged a little more forcefully, then we would be living >> in a far more democratic and tolerant world. >> >> Further, I do not see why only religious communities have a monopoly on >> sentiments which can then be hurt. As a feminist, my sentiments are >> assaulted on a routine and regular basis. As someone who believes in a >> version of social justice and equality, once articulated by, but not only >> by, Marx for instance, my feelings are continually trampled over. As someone >> who believes in a secular vision, the discussions on this list offend me >> everyday. However i do not see this being taken very seriously. And it >> needn't, that is the point. It is up to me to alchemize this outrage, hurt, >> sadness in a manner that enables me to live and act in the world. >> >> This is actually how we live our lives generally. My mother, or father, or >> lover, or friend might say something that hurts me terribly. Not always is >> this clarified, discussed, put in its right perspective. All our lives are >> all littered with silent archives of hurts we have never expressed. There is >> no heroic moment in which resolution is sought for hurts. And no one can do >> this for anyone... >> >> The recent Vogue advertisements doing the rounds, around which there has >> been some discussion on this list, have hurt the sentiments of many people. >> A few years ago another set of advertisements for brand equity in which two >> tribal women are shown discussing the tans they have got in Monte Carlo to >> an accompanying snide and contemptous copy which said something about how >> advertisers need to accurately reach their consumers, also outraged many of >> us. Having thought about this, I realised that though both the Vogue ads and >> the brand equity ads trouble me, they do so in different ways. >> >> The Vogue ads can be read in one of many ways - that it posits a horizon of >> desire that is unachievable for the people it uses for the ad. In some sense >> then the frisson of the ad derives from the discrepancy in what is desired >> and what is possible. Further it assumes that their horizon of desire will >> follow the trajectory laid out by Vogue. But most interesting to me is that >> both Vogue and the critics work with a fixed definition of poverty in the >> first place, and certain trajectory of the direction a life can take. >> >> The second set of ads function on precisely the opposite principle. Rather >> than positing an eventual horizon of desire, they deem a present life as >> failed, and urges us to recognise its failure. It presumes and makes me >> complicit in a social consensus in which we can use languages in a manner as >> if we are all agreed on the terms in operation. >> >> Can you see the difference in both ads? They both trouble me deeply, but >> they trouble me in different ways. How is this at all useful, or valuable? I >> think it is. I think to be able to carefully work through how and why and in >> what ways something arrives to me and what it disturbs is a critical thing, >> if we are to fashion any sort of language to deal with the violence of the >> present. >> >> with regards >> Aarti >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in >> the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> >> >> >> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Sun Sep 7 15:14:34 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2008 14:44:34 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70809061341s2c2162f9s57c8eda7a71ba2f3@mail.gmail.com> References: <"6353c6908090307 54n46e01c85va5267b772467649f"@mail.gmail.com> <"13df7c120809052249j449f2d1ahdb f3c72236d07f8b"@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809060001o1e15116dkb2b0502462d8bd5f@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690809060744w1aab3fb8sa79fd383ca18f25a@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70809060848l9401fcdledbad1da01dfb823@mail.gmail.com> <"6b79f1a708090 61140n3f24f95cpf5ff5953a49217c"@mail.gmail.com> <"48c2916d0809061222r5ed5472bo bc8768f09ca08a4"@mail.gmail.com> <"6b79f1a70809061229n44e9f372i200d4250bf79a3c a"@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809061328w7dcbedf3v78bef0a75f987401@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70809061341s2c2162f9s57c8eda7a71ba2f3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: It is indeed sad that a debate, a healthy one gets so personal, that the thoughts of the debate are diluted totally and space is utilised to condemn the person than the debate on the thoughts expressed. If Shuddha, Kshemendra or Aditya or AArti express the thoughts differently, is there merit in condemning the person ? Is it not better to exchange thoughts rather than condemn the person who express the dissent on the thoughts. ? About the matter regarding kashmir, it is a matter of fact that Kasmir was ruled by a king who wanted to continue his rule, but for Pakistan entering the kingdom, and muslims went up to take up arms and indulged in violence just as the "secular" Nehru had no courage or the political will to complete the task of annexing the land once for all. Same was the case in Goa, and part of Travancore kingdom under the rule of Diwan, Sir, CP Ramaswamy Iyer. The issue is that India is made up of over 457 kingdoms and territories but all the individuals in these territories fought for freedom. Hyderabad Nizam did not want to give that freedom to his subjects, razakars were again muslims, who thought that their islamic rule of the king was panacea. But truth of the matter is any religion or faith in democratic rule is a failure, as democracy means rule of law, with equity and justice for all citizens, not based on their faith, without fear or favour to anyone. kasmir in India is better off than pak occupied Kashmir thanks to the better funds flow to keep the citizens well governed, but the darker underbelly is that in the guise of secular rule, the Congress has resorted to appeasement selectively from time to time, and thus all babus have become kings and the politicins of the state are the nizams in the state.! Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Pawan Durani Date: Sunday, September 7, 2008 2:12 am Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord To: Aarti Sethi Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Aarti, > Only those who dont have a control over their mind can not stop > laughing. It > is better you stop debating about Kashmir . > > Do you know the difference between "NavidYaar and ParvarDigaar" ? > And if you > dont...... it is better you send some tissue papers to > Noorani...he can use > them either way and leave the left over to ignorants like you and > Shuddha. > Don't teach me what Kashmir and the Muslims in Kashmir are. Dont > teach me > the secularism. I have seen my temples being destroyed. > > Dont teach me all the shit you read from fools like Gautam > Navlakha and Aran > Dhat Teri Ki Rai. I know how I had to jump out of my 2nd Floor to > escape the > terrorists. > > I know who burnt my house and today they claim to be secularist , > only to be > backed by ignorance and fools with half baked knowledge which is > destructive. > > > Pawan > > > > > > > On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 1:58 AM, Aarti Sethi > wrote: > > > Dear Pawan, > > > > I cannot stop laughing...why so glum chum? why so serious? > should we put a > > smile on your face?....oh dear dear me!...since I'm such a > nobody, i simply > > can't understand what riles you so much?...tell you what Pawan, > why don't > > you compile a list of people whom you think are authorized to > speak on > > Kashmir and circulate it....you can list criteria, level of > commitment,> idealogical, political, sexual affiliation, food and > beverage> preferences...and since you are so knowledgable, how > come the only people > > who pay you any attention on this list is your little echo- > chamber of three? > > > > my intellectualism is not "sawed on a machine' as you so > charmingly put it. > > I only asked what this had to do with brussels because in the > inimitable> style you have made your own in which non sequiters > are supposed to stand in > > for arguments, his association with kashmiraffairs was supposed > to indicate > > that what he says he nonsense. This is exactly the same tack you > adopted> with Noorani's article. Since you have nothing to say > about his analysis, > > you chose instead to call him a pan-islamist supporter, as if > this by > > itself, counteracts the substance of his piece. > > > > So be quiet Pawan. And don't be so quick to tell people what > they can and > > cannot speak about. Instead, pay more attention to what you say, > and maybe > > you will not spout the reams of rubbish we have all become so > used to > > deleting without a second's glance. > > > > best as always > > Aarti > > > > On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 12:59 AM, Pawan Durani > wrote:> > >> Aarti, > >> Since you r NOBODY in Kashmir issue, you re irrelevant when it > comes to > >> discussing the issues and the personalities involved. > >> > >> And I wonder why Inder Ji does not respect himself by suffixing > Balasaheb>> or Advani Ji with Sahib. > >> > >> I know Murtaza and Yasin Malik better than they know themselves > and to > >> know why I know so much about these liars ...you better know me. > >> > >> Pawan > >> > >> > >> > >> On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 12:52 AM, Aarti Sethi > wrote:>> > >>> Pawan, > >>> > >>> How is working with a brussel's based organisation a statement > about>>> someone's credibility? Is a job being a "paid agent'? > Then we are all "paid > >>> agents" of someone or the other. The kashmir affairs website > says quite > >>> clearly that it is a non-funded organisation. If you know > something the rest > >>> of us don't, then maybe you should share it with the list. > Otherwise your > >>> attack on Murtaza makes no sense whatsoever. > >>> > >>> > >>> Aarti > >>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 9:18 PM, inder salim > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > Dear Rashneek > >>>> > > >>>> > some times back Mr. Kshmendra said something similar to me, > >>>> > > >>>> > " you deserve to be ignored " > >>>> > > >>>> > and now it is you who said it to Shuddha. > >>>> > > >>>> > I beleive, anybody who had developed a dislike for a > particular person > >>>> > may simply prese the botton ' delete' > >>>> > > >>>> > it is too easy. > >>>> > because to express the anger on the list is worst than > even 2+2=5. > >>>> > > >>>> > now, coming back to the basic question of 'Land and Freedom in > >>>> > Kashmir' as seen in the present and beyond: > >>>> > > >>>> > We all know what is the the stand of an Nationlaist Indian. > There is > >>>> > nothing new, What you are saying is no differnt from Man > Mohan Singh > >>>> > ji, our PM. > >>>> > > >>>> > But if the religion of all Kashmiris is ' AZADI then how > to convert > >>>> > them all into other religion which is Indian Nationalism in > this case. > >>>> > > >>>> > I think it is very simple. Army and police and other > reasoning has > >>>> > not helped us. > >>>> > I too would like to see a change of heart in kashmir. but, > after 1990 > >>>> > that possiblity looks now remote. Whatever the reasons... > >>>> > > >>>> > Yes, Kashmiri pandits have a legal claim in the valley, > but that can > >>>> > be the part of a real discussion, as and when it happens > between the > >>>> > representatives of all the inhabitants of the disputed > territory.>>>> > > >>>> > Now disturbes my personally, is that the fact that the > Hindu Right > >>>> > wing has politically appropriated the whole intellectual > worth of > >>>> > Kashmiri pandits. which is not different from Jamat-i- > Islami's effort > >>>> > to represent the whole of AZADI in kashmir. Kashmiri > pandits need to > >>>> > write about it boldly. And if there is none, they one > Advani-cum-Modi > >>>> > is enough to represent them. That will be unfortunate. > >>>> > > >>>> > We all know how people in kahsmir are handling this issue. > Everything>>>> > is hazy, but we have recently witnessed how > Geelani sahib had to > >>>> > retract from his claim of total representation. So > similarly you too > >>>> > need to think that every kashmniri pandit is not necessarly a > >>>> > VHP/BJP/BajrangDal/ShivSanik lover. Let us respect the > possiblity.>>>> > > >>>> > then that will amount to 2+2=4 > >>>> > > >>>> > with love > >>>> > is > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > Just press the delete button, anything that you consider > >>>> > On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 8:14 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul < > >>>> kauladityaraj at gmail.com> > >>>> > wrote: > >>>> > > Dear Aarti, > >>>> > > > >>>> > > You are so right. We just can't ignore Shuddha's posts on > this>>>> forum. He > >>>> > > needs to be corrected from time to time, hence, we just > can't remain > >>>> > silent. > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > Be careful Aarti.Disinformation spread can be dangerous. > >>>> > > > >>>> > > Warm Regards, > >>>> > > Aditya Raj Kaul > >>>> > > > >>>> > > On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 12:31 PM, Aarti Sethi > >>> > > >>>> > wrote: > >>>> > > > >>>> > >> Really? Is that so? In which case every post shuddha > writes, rife > >>>> with > >>>> > >> inaccuracies and and ignorance, should immediately get a > response>>>> from > >>>> > you > >>>> > >> setting the record straight. Instead, what we witness is a > >>>> deafening > >>>> > >> silence. Be careful and intelligent about whom you > choose as your > >>>> > >> adversaries Rashneek. And I think you are well aware of > whose posts > >>>> are > >>>> > >> generally ignored on this list and it certainly isn't > Shuddha.>>>> > >> > >>>> > >> regards > >>>> > >> Aarti > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 11:19 AM, rashneek kher > >>> > > >>>> > wrote: > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >>> All that notwithstanding, Shuddha's knowledge and > understanding of > >>>> > either > >>>> > >>> history or politics is of Kashmir is so poor or so full of > >>>> inaccuries > >>>> > >>> (intentional as well ignorant) that it is time we start > ignoring>>>> his > >>>> > posts > >>>> > >>> on Kashmir. > >>>> > >>> > >>>> > >>> Regards > >>>> > >>> > >>>> > >>> Rashneek > >>>> > >>> > >>>> > >>> On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 8:24 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul < > >>>> > kauladityaraj at gmail.com > >>>> > >>> >wrote: > >>>> > >>> > >>>> > >>> > And, In a recent lecture in Jamia University, he was no > >>>> different. > >>>> > >>> > Advocating pan-Islamist movement in Kashmir. > >>>> > >>> > > >>>> > >>> > On 9/3/08, Lalit Ambardar > wrote:>>>> > >>> > > > >>>> > >>> > > It is not surprising.AG Noorani is a known > sympathiser of the > >>>> > Kashmiri > >>>> > >>> > pan > >>>> > >>> > > Islamists & their cause. He ran a campaign series > in support > >>>> of > >>>> > the > >>>> > >>> > > separatists in HT for years .The very fact that > Noorani has > >>>> chosen > >>>> > to > >>>> > >>> > call > >>>> > >>> > > Jammuites as 'communal forces' & 'parivar' & the > accord itself > >>>> as > >>>> > >>> > > 'gunah-e-bey lazzat' & describe those who attempt > to seek > >>>> "azadi > >>>> > -bara > >>>> > >>> -e > >>>> > >>> > > -Islam" as 'victims' says it all. > >>>> > >>> > > > >>>> > >>> > > Noorani once went overboard in " don't be fence- > sitters " (HT > >>>> New > >>>> > >>> > Delhi/May > >>>> > >>> > > 8, 2007) in his appreciation of Sayad Sallahudin > of HM & the > >>>> > >>> al-Qeada > >>>> > >>> > > affiliate LeT. In a bizarre coincidence , the day > LeT chief > >>>> > allegedly > >>>> > >>> > > assured some Gen. Patankar of his willingness to > come to India > >>>> for > >>>> > >>> talks > >>>> > >>> > > (...????....) as claimed by Noorani in the article > , that very > >>>> day > >>>> > >>> Hafeez > >>>> > >>> > > Sayad confessed to the reporters in Islamabad about the > >>>> existence > >>>> > of > >>>> > >>> > > terrorist infrastructure in Pakistan & declared his > resolve to > >>>> > carry > >>>> > >>> on > >>>> > >>> > the > >>>> > >>> > > 'jihad' to its logical conclusion (Ref. TNN/ Times > of India, > >>>> > DEL/May8' > >>>> > >>> > 07/ > >>>> > >>> > > page no.13). > >>>> > >>> > > LA > >>>> > >>> > > > >>>> > >>> > > > >>>> > >>> > > > >>>> > >>> > > > >>>> > >>> > > > >>>> > >>> > > > Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 03:55:11 -0700> From: > >>>> > kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > >>>> > >>> > > >>>> > >>> > To: > >>>> > >>> > > shuddha at sarai.net> CC: reader-list at sarai.net> > Subject: Re: > >>>> > >>> [Reader-list] > >>>> > >>> > > Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath > Accord> > > > >>>> > >>> > > > >>>> > >>> > > >>>> > >>> > >>>> > > >>>> > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1>>>> > >>> > > >>>> > >>> > > > > >>>> > >>> > > > > --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta < > >>>> shuddha at sarai.net> > >>>> > >>> > wrote:> > >>>> > >>> > > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > Subject:>>>> Re: > >>>> > >>> > > [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the > Amarnath>>>> Accord> > >>>> > To: > >>>> > >>> > > "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > Cc: > "Sarai list" > >>>> < > >>>> > >>> > > reader-list at sarai.net>> Date: Wednesday, September > 3, 2008, > >>>> 4:07 > >>>> > PM> > >>>> > >>> > > >>>> > >>> > > Dear all,> > The link to the Noorani article in the > Greater>>>> Kashmir > >>>> > >>> > > Newspaper in > my earlier post got inadvertently > truncated.>>>> Here is > >>>> > >>> the > >>>> > >>> > > correct link.> > > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?>>>> > > >>>> > >>> > > Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> > Thanks, Tilak > Upadhyay for > >>>> > pointing > >>>> > >>> this > >>>> > >>> > > out.> > best,> > Shuddha> > On 03-Sep-08, at 3:16 PM, > >>>> Shuddhabrata > >>>> > >>> > Sengupta > >>>> > >>> > > wrote: Dear all> > > Dear All,> >> > An unusual > intensity of > >>>> hunger > >>>> > >>> for > >>>> > >>> > land > >>>> > >>> > > unites corporations, state> > agencies and shrine > boards in > >>>> India. > >>>> > >>> > Captains > >>>> > >>> > > of Industry,> > politicians and land hungry divines > seem to be > >>>> more > >>>> > >>> > > interested in> > acrage than in anything else. The > Mahabharata>>>> > >>> mentions > >>>> > >>> > the > >>>> > >>> > > burning of> > the Khandava forest to appease a > hungry god, > >>>> > >>> inaugurating a > >>>> > >>> > > long> > history of burnt and erased forests and > commons. It > >>>> appears > >>>> > as > >>>> > >>> it > >>>> > >>> > > we> > are surrounded now by 'hungry gods'. The > Khandava-daha > >>>> > >>> continues.> > >>>> > >>> > >> > >>>> > >>> > > > Be it Chengara (thanks, Anivar Aravind for > keeping us > >>>> updated > >>>> > about> > >>>> > >>> > > >>>> > >>> > the > >>>> > >>> > > land struggle in Kerala, where the ruling CPI(M) > led Left > >>>> Front> > > >>>> > is > >>>> > >>> > intent > >>>> > >>> > > on displacing indigenous communities from their > land), or> > > >>>> Singur > >>>> > >>> > (where > >>>> > >>> > > again, the ruling CPI(M) wants to gift land 'free'> > to a> > > >>>> > gigantic > >>>> > >>> > > corporation or Amarnath, - the issues - remain the > same -> > > >>>> to do > >>>> > >>> with > >>>> > >>> > > state mediated acquisition of land, and the > sequestering> > of > >>>> > either > >>>> > >>> > > cultivator's land, or a natural commons into some > form of> > > >>>> > 'gated' > >>>> > >>> and > >>>> > >>> > > 'fenced' land.> >> > There has been some premature > media spin > >>>> > around > >>>> > >>> the > >>>> > >>> > > 'accord' that> has> > been reached with the Shree > Amarnath>>>> Yatra > >>>> > >>> > Sangharsh > >>>> > >>> > > Samiti based in> > Jammu. On the face of it, the accord > >>>> appears to > >>>> > >>> grant > >>>> > >>> > a > >>>> > >>> > > limited usage> > right to the Shree Amarnath Shrine > Board. On > >>>> > closer > >>>> > >>> > reading > >>>> > >>> > > of the> > text however, it becomes evident that the > terms of > >>>> this > >>>> > >>> > 'accord'> > >>>> > >>> > > are> > actually even more invasive than was the > case with the > >>>> > >>> substance > >>>> > >>>> of> > >>>> > >>> > > > the original gubernatorial 'land transfer' order > in May.> >> > >>>> > I > >>>> > am > >>>> > >>> > > enclosing below - an article by A. G. Noorani, a > well known> > > >>>> > legal > >>>> > >>> > > historian and practitioner of constitutional law, > titled> > > >>>> 'An > >>>> > >>> Immoral > >>>> > >>> > and > >>>> > >>> > > Illegal Accord' which was published in the Greater> > > Kashmir > >>>> > >>> newspaper > >>>> > >>> > > today. It is available on line at -> > > >>>> > >>> > > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?> > > >>>> > >>> > > Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> >> > Noorani > carefully reads > >>>> the > >>>> > terms > >>>> > >>> of > >>>> > >>> > the > >>>> > >>> > > Amarnath Accord in this> > article. As I had > pointed out > >>>> before on > >>>> > >>> this > >>>> > >>> > list > >>>> > >>> > > (in my second post> > (dated 15th August, 2008) in > the thread > >>>> - > >>>> > 'Gun > >>>> > >>> > Salutes > >>>> > >>> > > for August> > 15' in response to Sonia Jabbar and > Aditya Raj > >>>> Kaul - > >>>> > >>> the > >>>> > >>> > > anger in> > Kashmir has a lot to do with the arbitrary > >>>> acquisition > >>>> > of > >>>> > >>> > land - > >>>> > >>> > > I> > had shown, using state government figures, how the > >>>> equivalent > >>>> > of > >>>> > >>> > one> > > >>>> > >>> > > in ten fruit orchards can be said to be under the > occupation>>>> of > >>>> > the> > > >>>> > >>> > Armed > >>>> > >>> > > Forces. The 'Amarnath Land Transfer' issue needs to > be seen> > >>>> in> > > >>>> > >>> this > >>>> > >>> > > context.> >> > As long as that anger (regarding the > alienation>>>> of > >>>> > >>> land) > >>>> > >>> > is > >>>> > >>> > > not> > addressed, the people of Kashmir will have > no reason, > >>>> in my> > >>>> > > > >>>> > >>> > > estimation, to think of themselves as anything but > under a > >>>> brutal > >>>> > and> > >>>> > >>> > > >>>> > >>> > > unrelenting occupation. The current 'Amarnath > Accord' in my > >>>> view,> > >>>> > > > >>>> > >>> > worsens > >>>> > >>> > > the situation, and can alienate the people of > Kashmir (for> > > >>>> the > >>>> > >>> reasons > >>>> > >>> > > that Noorani underlines below) even more. As such, > it can> > > >>>> only > >>>> > be > >>>> > >>> > viewed > >>>> > >>> > > as yet another provocation, yet another disaster, > in> > the > >>>> long > >>>> > and > >>>> > >>> > > undistinguished record of the Government of > India's> > tragic > >>>> > >>> blundering > >>>> > >>> > on > >>>> > >>> > > Kashmir. It cannot but prove to be divisive in a> > > situation>>>> that > >>>> > >>> > urgently > >>>> > >>> > > requires the opposite.> >> > regards> >> > Shuddha> > >> > > >>>> > >>> > > > >>>> > > ======================================================================>>>> > >>> > > >>>> > >>> > > > >>>> > >>> > > ==> > =======================> >> > An Immoral and > Illegal>>>> Accord> > >>>> > > > >>>> > >>> > Greater > >>>> > >>> > > Kashmir, September 03, 2008> > A G NOORANI> >> > > Srinagar, Sep > >>>> 2: > >>>> > The > >>>> > >>> > accord > >>>> > >>> > > between the Jammu and Kashmir government> > and the > Shri>>>> Amarnath > >>>> > >>> Yatra > >>>> > >>> > > Sangharsh Samiti on 31 August is far> > worse than the > >>>> government's > >>>> > >>> order > >>>> > >>> > > only three months earlier on 26> > May. It grants > the SAYSS > >>>> > >>> concessions > >>>> > >>> > > beyond what the May order did.> > It is one-sided > and marks an > >>>> > abject > >>>> > >>> > > surrender to violence, blockade> > and to communal > forces. The > >>>> > >>> > differences > >>>> > >>> > > between the order and accord> > are glaring. Here > is a list:> > >>>> >> > > >>>> > 1. > >>>> > >>> The > >>>> > >>> > > order was made pursuant to a decision on 20 May by the > >>>> cabinet> > > >>>> > in > >>>> > >>> > which > >>>> > >>> > > both Jammu and Kashmir were represented. The > accord> > > >>>> completely > >>>> > >>> ignores > >>>> > >>> > > Kashmir where the land is to be given. Jammu alone> > > was > >>>> > represented. > >>>> > >>> A > >>>> > >>> > > week earlier, there was a clampdown in the Valley> > > and top > >>>> > leaders > >>>> > >>> were > >>>> > >>> > > arrested.> >> > 2. Even the controversial order > nowhere used > >>>> the > >>>> > word > >>>> > >>> > > "exclusive".> > The SAYSS felt so emboldened as to > demand it > >>>> and > >>>> > >>> threaten > >>>> > >>> > to > >>>> > >>> > > wreck> > the deal if it was not conceded. The > government>>>> yielded in > >>>> > >>> the > >>>> > >>> > > early> > hours of 31 August. Para 6A says that the > Government>>>> > "shall > >>>> > >>> set > >>>> > >>> > > aside> > for use by Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board > exclusively>>>> the > >>>> > land > >>>> > >>> in> > >>>> > >>> > > > >>>> > >>> > > Baltal and Domail". This order unknown anywhere in > the world > >>>> is> > > >>>> > >>> > cloaked > >>>> > >>> > > under a lie by calling it "traditionally under use > for the> > > >=3E>> > annual > >>>> > >>> > yatra > >>>> > >>> > > purpose". The traditional route for over a century > is> > the > >>>> > Pahalgam > >>>> > >>> > route. > >>>> > >>> > > The Baltal route is a recent demand. It was> > > regarded by the > >>>> Army > >>>> > >>> and > >>>> > >>> > > Nitish Sengupta Report as dangerous. It is> > also > unnecessary>>>> if > >>>> > the > >>>> > >>> > limit > >>>> > >>> > > of yatris set by the Report (1 lakh) is> > > observed.> >> > 3. > >>>> This > >>>> > >>> > violates > >>>> > >>> > > the citizen's fundamental right under Art. 19 (1) > D> > to move > >>>> > freely > >>>> > >>> > > throughout India. The demand of exclusivity was > not> > made > >>>> even in > >>>> > >>> May > >>>> > >>> > 2008 > >>>> > >>> > > or in decades earlier. It is pure communal> > > aggression using > >>>> the > >>>> > >>> yatra > >>>> > >>> > for > >>>> > >>> > > political demonstration not religious> > piety.> >> > > 4. The > >>>> > duration > >>>> > >>> of > >>>> > >>> > use > >>>> > >>> > > is widened to cover pre and post yatra period.> > > Para 6 C > >>>> first > >>>> > says > >>>> > >>> > that > >>>> > >>> > > the land will be used "for the duration of> > the > yatra">>>> including > >>>> > the > >>>> > >>> > > period of preparations and winding up. But> > the > very next > >>>> para > >>>> > has > >>>> > >>> > these > >>>> > >>> > > sinister words: "The aforesaid land> > shall be > used according > >>>> to > >>>> > the > >>>> > >>> > > Board's requirements from time to> > time, > including for the > >>>> > >>> following". > >>>> > >>> > > There follow 9 measures including> > construction, > setting up > >>>> of > >>>> > the > >>>> > >>> > sheds > >>>> > >>> > > and shops etc. These can be> > done even beyond the > yatra>>>> period > >>>> > "from > >>>> > >>> > time > >>>> > >>> > > to time" and "according> > to the Board's > requirements"; may > >>>> be all > >>>> > >>> the > >>>> > >>> > year > >>>> > >>> > > around.> >> > 5. Para 8 of the order insisted that > the land > >>>> "shall > >>>> > >>> > return" > >>>> > >>> > > to the> > State. This is dropped in the accord. This > >>>> accomplishes > >>>> > S.K. > >>>> > >>> > > Sinha's> > objective— permanent use the year > round.> >> > 6. > >>>> Also > >>>> > >>> dropped > >>>> > >>> > > totally is Para 4 on payment for user.> >> > 7. > Dropped too is > >>>> Para > >>>> > 6. > >>>> > >>> An > >>>> > >>> > > undertaking of "foolproof measures> > against water > pollution>>>> and > >>>> > Para > >>>> > >>> 7 > >>>> > >>> > on > >>>> > >>> > > payment of fine for damage to> > the forest. There > is a pious > >>>> > >>> provision > >>>> > >>> > in > >>>> > >>> > > accord Para 6 C (ix) among> > the objectives of > land user; > >>>> namely > >>>> > >>> > > "undertaking measures relating to> > … preservation of > >>>> ecology" > >>>> > etc. > >>>> > >>> > Breach > >>>> > >>> > > entails no fine.> >> > 8. The order of 26 May was > rescinded on > >>>> 1 > >>>> > July. > >>>> > >>> > The > >>>> > >>> > > accord will> > require a fresh order to implement > it. By > >>>> itself the > >>>> > >>> > accord > >>>> > >>> > > has no> > legal force. Section 2(a) of the J&K Forest > >>>> > (Conservation) > >>>> > >>> Act > >>>> > >>> > > 1997> > says "the Government shall not, except on a > resolution>>>> of > >>>> > the > >>>> > >>> > > Council> > of Ministers based on the advice of the > Advisory>>>> > >>> Committee"> > > >>>> > >>> > > constituted under the Act "make any order directing > that any > >>>> > forest> > > >>>> > >>> > land > >>>> > >>> > > or any portion thereof may be used for any non-forest > >>>> purpose".> > > >>>> > The > >>>> > >>> > > earlier phrase "Council of ministers" merely was > revised by > >>>> an> > > >>>> > >>> > amendment > >>>> > >>> > > in 2001 and the Forest Advisory Committee's advice > was> > > >>>> added and > >>>> > >>> made > >>>> > >>> > > mandatory. "Council of Ministers" is specific. It > is> > > >>>> different > >>>> > from > >>>> > >>> > "J&K > >>>> > >>> > > Government" whose powers vest now in the> governor> > > alone. > >>>> The > >>>> > law > >>>> > >>> > > intentionally provides the resolution as a > safeguard.> > This > >>>> > Council > >>>> > >>> can > >>>> > >>> > > come into existence only after the next elections.> > > In any > >>>> case > >>>> > the > >>>> > >>> > Forest > >>>> > >>> > > Advisory Committees advice on 12 July 2007> > > cannot apply to > >>>> this > >>>> > new > >>>> > >>> > > accord which must be vetted afresh by that> > > Committee. It > >>>> was > >>>> > given > >>>> > >>> > before > >>>> > >>> > > the Supreme Court's final judgment in> > the T M > Godavarman>>>> case on > >>>> > 23 > >>>> > >>> > > November 2007 which lays down the law> > and makes > important>>>> > >>> observations > >>>> > >>> > on > >>>> > >>> > > balancing development with> > protection of > environment.>>>> Failure to > >>>> > >>> > consider > >>>> > >>> > > it vitiates the> > decision. Precisely based on > >>>> misrepresentation > >>>> > of > >>>> > >>> > opinion > >>>> > >>> > > of the> > deputy CM Muzaffar Hussain Beg and > advocate general > >>>> Altaf > >>>> > >>> Naik > >>>> > >>> > > both> > of which were given in entirely difference > cases.> >> > >>>> > The > >>>> > >>> > accord > >>>> > >>> > > lacks legal efficacy as well as moral and > political> > > >>>> legitimacy. > >>>> > Any > >>>> > >>> > order > >>>> > >>> > > in its implementation will be void in law. It> > is > a pity > >>>> that the > >>>> > >>> state > >>>> > >>> > > should bend all rules to buy peace with> > communal > forces>>>> > including > >>>> > >>> > promise > >>>> > >>> > > to consider compensation for law-> > breakers. What of > >>>> compensation > >>>> > to > >>>> > >>> > the > >>>> > >>> > > Valley for the blockade? The> > parivar in Jammu > has already > >>>> begun > >>>> > >>> asking > >>>> > >>> > > for more. The Government> > has not bought peace > but trouble. > >>>> It is > >>>> > >>> > > gunah-e-bey lazzat (sin> > without any taste.)> >> > > If the > >>>> state > >>>> > can > >>>> > >>> > thus > >>>> > >>> > > bend its knees before the Sangh parivar on an> > > issue like > >>>> this, > >>>> > what > >>>> > >>> > hopes > >>>> > >>> > > of justice can Kashmiris entertain when> > it comes to > >>>> restoring > >>>> > the > >>>> > >>> > raped > >>>> > >>> > > Article 370 to a status of worth and> > respect?> > >> > END> >> > >>>> > > >>>> > >>> > > > >>>> > > ======================================================================>>>> > >>> > > >>>> > >>> > > > >>>> > >>> > > ==> > =======================> >> >> >> > > >>>> > >>> > > _________________________________________> > reader- > list: an > >>>> open > >>>> > >>> > discussion > >>>> > >>> > > list on media and the city.> > Critiques & > Collaborations> > > >>>> To > >>>> > >>> > subscribe: > >>>> > >>> > > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > >>>> subscribe > >>>> > in > >>>> > >>> the > >>>> > >>> > > subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > >>>> > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list> > List > >>>> > archive: > >>>> > >>> < > >>>> > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > > >>>> Shuddhabrata > >>>> > >>> Sengupta> > >>>> > >>> > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS> Raqs Media Collective> > >>>> > shuddha at sarai.net > >>>> > >>> > > >>>> > >>> > > www.sarai.net> www.raqsmediacollective.net> > > > >>>> > >>> > > _________________________________________> reader- > list: an > >>>> open > >>>> > >>> > discussion > >>>> > >>> > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & > Collaborations> To > >>>> > subscribe: > >>>> > >>> > send > >>>> > >>> > > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in> > >>>> the > >>>> > >>> subject > >>>> > >>> > > header.> To unsubscribe: > >>>> > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List > >>>> > archive: < > >>>> > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > > > > >>>> > >>> > > _________________________________________> reader- > list: an > >>>> open > >>>> > >>> > discussion > >>>> > >>> > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & > Collaborations> To > >>>> > subscribe: > >>>> > >>> > send > >>>> > >>> > > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > >>>> the > >>>> > >>> subject > >>>> > >>> > > header.> To unsubscribe: > >>>> > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List > >>>> > archive: < > >>>> > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>>> > >>> > > > >>>> _________________________________________________________________ > >>>> > >>> > > Want to explore the world? Visit MSN Travel for the > best>>>> deals. > >>>> > >>> > > http://in.msn.com/coxandkings > >>>> > >>> > > _________________________________________ > >>>> > >>> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > >>>> > >>> > > Critiques & Collaborations > >>>> > >>> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > request at sarai.netwith>>>> > >>> > > subscribe in the subject header. > >>>> > >>> > > To unsubscribe: > >>>> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>> > >>> > > List archive: > > >>>> > >>> > _________________________________________ > >>>> > >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city.>>>> > >>> > Critiques & Collaborations > >>>> > >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > request at sarai.netwith>>>> > >>> > subscribe in the subject header. > >>>> > >>> > To unsubscribe: > >>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>> > >>> > List archive: > >>>> > > >>>> > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>>> > >>> -- > >>>> > >>> Rashneek Kher > >>>> > >>> Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten Human Tragedy > >>>> > >>> http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com > >>>> > >>> http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com > >>>> > >>> _________________________________________ > >>>> > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>> > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>>> > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > request at sarai.net with > >>>> > >>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>>> > >>> To unsubscribe: > >>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>> > >>> List archive: list/>>>>> > >>> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > >> > >>>> > > _________________________________________ > >>>> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>> > > Critiques & Collaborations > >>>> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > request at sarai.net with > >>>> > subscribe in the subject header. > >>>> > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>> > > List archive: > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > -- > >>>> > > >>>> > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > >>>> > _________________________________________ > >>>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>> > Critiques & Collaborations > >>>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > request at sarai.net with > >>>> > subscribe in the subject header. > >>>> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>> > List archive: > >>>> > > >>>> _________________________________________ > >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>>> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>>> List archive: > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Sun Sep 7 15:21:52 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2008 14:51:52 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0809061328w7dcbedf3v78bef0a75f987401@mail.gmail.com> References: <"BAY117-W34914FF 12DC4D0985CD59EB95E0"@phx.gbl> <13df7c120809052249j449f2d1ahdbf3c72236d07f8b@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809060001o1e15116dkb2b0502462d8bd5f@mail.gmail.com> <"6353c69080906 0744w1aab3fb8sa79fd383ca18f25a"@mail.gmail.com> <"47e122a70809060848l9401fcdle dbad1da01dfb823"@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70809061140n3f24f95cpf5ff5953a49217c@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809061222r5ed5472bobc8768f09ca08a4@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70809061229n44e9f372i200d4250bf79a3ca@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809061328w7dcbedf3v78bef0a75f987401@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Aarti after few posts about the hurt sentiments, now that you are laughing, it is good sign, laughter is the best medicine for the mind, numbed by hurt sentiments to realise that in "secular " rule of law, oldest party has always used the slogans and hurt the sentiments of every citizen at all times to have divisive rule in the nation, dividing the hindus on caste equations, dividing muslims with appeasements selectively, to hindus and muslims so that a non entity ike a bartender of italian origin can rule the nation by proxy, extend the loot to her uncle Q using the sycophants and hangers on , be it vidharbha package or any scheme, it is contractors and sycophants and hangers on who have taken all the crores and the benefits have never reached to the needy. Now is the time to all citizens to realise the need of unity, be it on faith or on caste equations, as otherwise, divided polity looses good rule of laws, as caste which is well united gets all the benefits, others just fail to get any, as seen in free India, inspite of reservation and quoatas, these are always get lost to those powwerful, not to the needy. So keep laughing, wiser thoughts will emerge out of that. ?? ----- Original Message ----- From: Aarti Sethi Date: Sunday, September 7, 2008 1:59 am Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord To: Pawan Durani Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Dear Pawan, > > I cannot stop laughing...why so glum chum? why so serious? should > we put a > smile on your face?....oh dear dear me!...since I'm such a nobody, > i simply > can't understand what riles you so much?...tell you what Pawan, > why don't > you compile a list of people whom you think are authorized to > speak on > Kashmir and circulate it....you can list criteria, level of > commitment,idealogical, political, sexual affiliation, food and > beveragepreferences...and since you are so knowledgable, how come > the only people > who pay you any attention on this list is your little echo-chamber > of three? > > my intellectualism is not "sawed on a machine' as you so > charmingly put it. > I only asked what this had to do with brussels because in the > inimitablestyle you have made your own in which non sequiters are > supposed to stand in > for arguments, his association with kashmiraffairs was supposed to > indicatethat what he says he nonsense. This is exactly the same > tack you adopted > with Noorani's article. Since you have nothing to say about his > analysis,you chose instead to call him a pan-islamist supporter, > as if this by > itself, counteracts the substance of his piece. > > So be quiet Pawan. And don't be so quick to tell people what they > can and > cannot speak about. Instead, pay more attention to what you say, > and maybe > you will not spout the reams of rubbish we have all become so used to > deleting without a second's glance. > > best as always > Aarti > > On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 12:59 AM, Pawan Durani > wrote: > > Aarti, > > Since you r NOBODY in Kashmir issue, you re irrelevant when it > comes to > > discussing the issues and the personalities involved. > > > > And I wonder why Inder Ji does not respect himself by suffixing > Balasaheb> or Advani Ji with Sahib. > > > > I know Murtaza and Yasin Malik better than they know themselves > and to know > > why I know so much about these liars ...you better know me. > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 12:52 AM, Aarti Sethi > wrote:> > >> Pawan, > >> > >> How is working with a brussel's based organisation a statement > about>> someone's credibility? Is a job being a "paid agent'? Then > we are all "paid > >> agents" of someone or the other. The kashmir affairs website > says quite > >> clearly that it is a non-funded organisation. If you know > something the rest > >> of us don't, then maybe you should share it with the list. > Otherwise your > >> attack on Murtaza makes no sense whatsoever. > >> > >> > >> Aarti > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 9:18 PM, inder salim > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> > Dear Rashneek > >>> > > >>> > some times back Mr. Kshmendra said something similar to me, > >>> > > >>> > " you deserve to be ignored " > >>> > > >>> > and now it is you who said it to Shuddha. > >>> > > >>> > I beleive, anybody who had developed a dislike for a > particular person > >>> > may simply prese the botton ' delete' > >>> > > >>> > it is too easy. > >>> > because to express the anger on the list is worst than even > 2+2=5.>>> > > >>> > now, coming back to the basic question of 'Land and Freedom in > >>> > Kashmir' as seen in the present and beyond: > >>> > > >>> > We all know what is the the stand of an Nationlaist Indian. > There is > >>> > nothing new, What you are saying is no differnt from Man > Mohan Singh > >>> > ji, our PM. > >>> > > >>> > But if the religion of all Kashmiris is ' AZADI then how > to convert > >>> > them all into other religion which is Indian Nationalism in > this case. > >>> > > >>> > I think it is very simple. Army and police and other > reasoning has > >>> > not helped us. > >>> > I too would like to see a change of heart in kashmir. but, > after 1990 > >>> > that possiblity looks now remote. Whatever the reasons... > >>> > > >>> > Yes, Kashmiri pandits have a legal claim in the valley, but > that can > >>> > be the part of a real discussion, as and when it happens > between the > >>> > representatives of all the inhabitants of the disputed > territory.>>> > > >>> > Now disturbes my personally, is that the fact that the Hindu > Right>>> > wing has politically appropriated the whole > intellectual worth of > >>> > Kashmiri pandits. which is not different from Jamat-i- > Islami's effort > >>> > to represent the whole of AZADI in kashmir. Kashmiri pandits > need to > >>> > write about it boldly. And if there is none, they one Advani- > cum-Modi > >>> > is enough to represent them. That will be unfortunate. > >>> > > >>> > We all know how people in kahsmir are handling this issue. > Everything>>> > is hazy, but we have recently witnessed how > Geelani sahib had to > >>> > retract from his claim of total representation. So similarly > you too > >>> > need to think that every kashmniri pandit is not necessarly a > >>> > VHP/BJP/BajrangDal/ShivSanik lover. Let us respect the > possiblity.>>> > > >>> > then that will amount to 2+2=4 > >>> > > >>> > with love > >>> > is > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > Just press the delete button, anything that you consider > >>> > On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 8:14 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul < > >>> kauladityaraj at gmail.com> > >>> > wrote: > >>> > > Dear Aarti, > >>> > > > >>> > > You are so right. We just can't ignore Shuddha's posts on > this forum. > >>> He > >>> > > needs to be corrected from time to time, hence, we just > can't remain > >>> > silent. > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > Be careful Aarti.Disinformation spread can be dangerous. > >>> > > > >>> > > Warm Regards, > >>> > > Aditya Raj Kaul > >>> > > > >>> > > On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 12:31 PM, Aarti Sethi > >>> > wrote: > >>> > > > >>> > >> Really? Is that so? In which case every post shuddha > writes, rife > >>> with > >>> > >> inaccuracies and and ignorance, should immediately get a > response>>> from > >>> > you > >>> > >> setting the record straight. Instead, what we witness is > a deafening > >>> > >> silence. Be careful and intelligent about whom you choose > as your > >>> > >> adversaries Rashneek. And I think you are well aware of > whose posts > >>> are > >>> > >> generally ignored on this list and it certainly isn't > Shuddha.>>> > >> > >>> > >> regards > >>> > >> Aarti > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 11:19 AM, rashneek kher > >>> > wrote: > >>> > >> > >>> > >>> All that notwithstanding, Shuddha's knowledge and > understanding of > >>> > either > >>> > >>> history or politics is of Kashmir is so poor or so full of > >>> inaccuries > >>> > >>> (intentional as well ignorant) that it is time we start > ignoring>>> his > >>> > posts > >>> > >>> on Kashmir. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Regards > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Rashneek > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 8:24 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul < > >>> > kauladityaraj at gmail.com > >>> > >>> >wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > And, In a recent lecture in Jamia University, he was no > >>> different. > >>> > >>> > Advocating pan-Islamist movement in Kashmir. > >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > On 9/3/08, Lalit Ambardar > wrote:>>> > >>> > > > >>> > >>> > > It is not surprising.AG Noorani is a known > sympathiser of the > >>> > Kashmiri > >>> > >>> > pan > >>> > >>> > > Islamists & their cause. He ran a campaign series > in support > >>> of > >>> > the > >>> > >>> > > separatists in HT for years .The very fact that > Noorani has > >>> chosen > >>> > to > >>> > >>> > call > >>> > >>> > > Jammuites as 'communal forces' & 'parivar' & the > accord itself > >>> as > >>> > >>> > > 'gunah-e-bey lazzat' & describe those who attempt to > seek>>> "azadi > >>> > -bara > >>> > >>> -e > >>> > >>> > > -Islam" as 'victims' says it all. > >>> > >>> > > > >>> > >>> > > Noorani once went overboard in " don't be fence- > sitters " (HT > >>> New > >>> > >>> > Delhi/May > >>> > >>> > > 8, 2007) in his appreciation of Sayad Sallahudin > of HM & the > >>> > >>> al-Qeada > >>> > >>> > > affiliate LeT. In a bizarre coincidence , the day > LeT chief > >>> > allegedly > >>> > >>> > > assured some Gen. Patankar of his willingness to > come to India > >>> for > >>> > >>> talks > >>> > >>> > > (...????....) as claimed by Noorani in the article , > that very > >>> day > >>> > >>> Hafeez > >>> > >>> > > Sayad confessed to the reporters in Islamabad about the > >>> existence > >>> > of > >>> > >>> > > terrorist infrastructure in Pakistan & declared his > resolve to > >>> > carry > >>> > >>> on > >>> > >>> > the > >>> > >>> > > 'jihad' to its logical conclusion (Ref. TNN/ Times > of India, > >>> > DEL/May8' > >>> > >>> > 07/ > >>> > >>> > > page no.13). > >>> > >>> > > LA > >>> > >>> > > > >>> > >>> > > > >>> > >>> > > > >>> > >>> > > > >>> > >>> > > > >>> > >>> > > > Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 03:55:11 -0700> From: > >>> > kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > To: > >>> > >>> > > shuddha at sarai.net> CC: reader-list at sarai.net> > Subject: Re: > >>> > >>> [Reader-list] > >>> > >>> > > Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord> > > > > >>> > >>> > > > >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> > > >>> > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1>>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > > > >>> > >>> > > > > --- On Wed, 9/3/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta < > >>> shuddha at sarai.net> > >>> > >>> > wrote:> > >>> > >>> > > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > Subject:>>> Re: > >>> > >>> > > [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the > Amarnath>>> Accord> > >>> > To: > >>> > >>> > > "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > Cc: > "Sarai list" > >>> < > >>> > >>> > > reader-list at sarai.net>> Date: Wednesday, September > 3, 2008, > >>> 4:07 > >>> > PM> > >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > Dear all,> > The link to the Noorani article in the > Greater>>> Kashmir > >>> > >>> > > Newspaper in > my earlier post got inadvertently > truncated.>>> Here is > >>> > >>> the > >>> > >>> > > correct link.> > > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?>>> > > >>> > >>> > > Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> > Thanks, Tilak > Upadhyay for > >>> > pointing > >>> > >>> this > >>> > >>> > > out.> > best,> > Shuddha> > On 03-Sep-08, at 3:16 PM, > >>> Shuddhabrata > >>> > >>> > Sengupta > >>> > >>> > > wrote: Dear all> > > Dear All,> >> > An unusual > intensity of > >>> hunger > >>> > >>> for > >>> > >>> > land > >>> > >>> > > unites corporations, state> > agencies and shrine > boards in > >>> India. > >>> > >>> > Captains > >>> > >>> > > of Industry,> > politicians and land hungry divines > seem to be > >>> more > >>> > >>> > > interested in> > acrage than in anything else. The > Mahabharata>>> > >>> mentions > >>> > >>> > the > >>> > >>> > > burning of> > the Khandava forest to appease a > hungry god, > >>> > >>> inaugurating a > >>> > >>> > > long> > history of burnt and erased forests and > commons. It > >>> appears > >>> > as > >>> > >>> it > >>> > >>> > > we> > are surrounded now by 'hungry gods'. The > Khandava-daha > >>> > >>> continues.> > >>> > >>> > >> > >>> > >>> > > > Be it Chengara (thanks, Anivar Aravind for keeping > us updated > >>> > about> > >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > the > >>> > >>> > > land struggle in Kerala, where the ruling CPI(M) led > Left>>> Front> > > >>> > is > >>> > >>> > intent > >>> > >>> > > on displacing indigenous communities from their > land), or> > > >>> Singur > >>> > >>> > (where > >>> > >>> > > again, the ruling CPI(M) wants to gift land 'free'> > to a> > > >>> > gigantic > >>> > >>> > > corporation or Amarnath, - the issues - remain the > same -> > to > >>> do > >>> > >>> with > >>> > >>> > > state mediated acquisition of land, and the > sequestering> > of > >>> > either > >>> > >>> > > cultivator's land, or a natural commons into some > form of> > > >>> > 'gated' > >>> > >>> and > >>> > >>> > > 'fenced' land.> >> > There has been some premature > media spin > >>> > around > >>> > >>> the > >>> > >>> > > 'accord' that> has> > been reached with the Shree > Amarnath>>> Yatra > >>> > >>> > Sangharsh > >>> > >>> > > Samiti based in> > Jammu. On the face of it, the > accord appears > >>> to > >>> > >>> grant > >>> > >>> > a > >>> > >>> > > limited usage> > right to the Shree Amarnath Shrine > Board. On > >>> > closer > >>> > >>> > reading > >>> > >>> > > of the> > text however, it becomes evident that the > terms of > >>> this > >>> > >>> > 'accord'> > >>> > >>> > > are> > actually even more invasive than was the case > with the > >>> > >>> substance > >>> > >>> > of> > >>> > >>> > > > the original gubernatorial 'land transfer' order > in May.> >> > >>> > I > >>> > am > >>> > >>> > > enclosing below - an article by A. G. Noorani, a > well known> > > >>> > legal > >>> > >>> > > historian and practitioner of constitutional law, > titled> > 'An > >>> > >>> Immoral > >>> > >>> > and > >>> > >>> > > Illegal Accord' which was published in the Greater> > > Kashmir > >>> > >>> newspaper > >>> > >>> > > today. It is available on line at -> > > >>> > >>> > > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?> > > >>> > >>> > > Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> >> > Noorani > carefully reads the > >>> > terms > >>> > >>> of > >>> > >>> > the > >>> > >>> > > Amarnath Accord in this> > article. As I had pointed > out before > >>> on > >>> > >>> this > >>> > >>> > list > >>> > >>> > > (in my second post> > (dated 15th August, 2008) in > the thread - > >>> > 'Gun > >>> > >>> > Salutes > >>> > >>> > > for August> > 15' in response to Sonia Jabbar and > Aditya Raj > >>> Kaul - > >>> > >>> the > >>> > >>> > > anger in> > Kashmir has a lot to do with the arbitrary > >>> acquisition > >>> > of > >>> > >>> > land - > >>> > >>> > > I> > had shown, using state government figures, how the > >>> equivalent > >>> > of > >>> > >>> > one> > > >>> > >>> > > in ten fruit orchards can be said to be under the > occupation of > >>> > the> > > >>> > >>> > Armed > >>> > >>> > > Forces. The 'Amarnath Land Transfer' issue needs to > be seen> > >>> in> > > >>> > >>> this > >>> > >>> > > context.> >> > As long as that anger (regarding the > alienation>>> of > >>> > >>> land) > >>> > >>> > is > >>> > >>> > > not> > addressed, the people of Kashmir will have no > reason, in > >>> my> > >>> > > > >>> > >>> > > estimation, to think of themselves as anything but > under a > >>> brutal > >>> > and> > >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > unrelenting occupation. The current 'Amarnath > Accord' in my > >>> view,> > >>> > > > >>> > >>> > worsens > >>> > >>> > > the situation, and can alienate the people of > Kashmir (for> > > >>> the > >>> > >>> reasons > >>> > >>> > > that Noorani underlines below) even more. As such, > it can> > > >>> only > >>> > be > >>> > >>> > viewed > >>> > >>> > > as yet another provocation, yet another disaster, > in> > the > >>> long > >>> > and > >>> > >>> > > undistinguished record of the Government of India's> > > tragic > >>> > >>> blundering > >>> > >>> > on > >>> > >>> > > Kashmir. It cannot but prove to be divisive in a> > > situation>>> that > >>> > >>> > urgently > >>> > >>> > > requires the opposite.> >> > regards> >> > Shuddha> > >> > > >>> > >>> > > > >>> > > ======================================================================>>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > > >>> > >>> > > ==> > =======================> >> > An Immoral and > Illegal>>> Accord> > >>> > > > >>> > >>> > Greater > >>> > >>> > > Kashmir, September 03, 2008> > A G NOORANI> >> > > Srinagar, Sep > >>> 2: > >>> > The > >>> > >>> > accord > >>> > >>> > > between the Jammu and Kashmir government> > and the Shri > >>> Amarnath > >>> > >>> Yatra > >>> > >>> > > Sangharsh Samiti on 31 August is far> > worse than the > >>> government's > >>> > >>> order > >>> > >>> > > only three months earlier on 26> > May. It grants > the SAYSS > >>> > >>> concessions > >>> > >>> > > beyond what the May order did.> > It is one-sided > and marks an > >>> > abject > >>> > >>> > > surrender to violence, blockade> > and to communal > forces. The > >>> > >>> > differences > >>> > >>> > > between the order and accord> > are glaring. Here is > a list:> > >>> >> > > >>> > 1. > >>> > >>> The > >>> > >>> > > order was made pursuant to a decision on 20 May by > the cabinet> > >>> > > >>> > in > >>> > >>> > which > >>> > >>> > > both Jammu and Kashmir were represented. The accord> > > >>> completely > >>> > >>> ignores > >>> > >>> > > Kashmir where the land is to be given. Jammu alone> > > was > >>> > represented. > >>> > >>> A > >>> > >>> > > week earlier, there was a clampdown in the Valley> > > and top > >>> > leaders > >>> > >>> were > >>> > >>> > > arrested.> >> > 2. Even the controversial order > nowhere used > >>> the > >>> > word > >>> > >>> > > "exclusive".> > The SAYSS felt so emboldened as to > demand it > >>> and > >>> > >>> threaten > >>> > >>> > to > >>> > >>> > > wreck> > the deal if it was not conceded. The government > >>> yielded in > >>> > >>> the > >>> > >>> > > early> > hours of 31 August. Para 6A says that the > Government>>> > "shall > >>> > >>> set > >>> > >>> > > aside> > for use by Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board > exclusively>>> the > >>> > land > >>> > >>> in> > >>> > >>> > > > >>> > >>> > > Baltal and Domail". This order unknown anywhere in > the world > >>> is> > > >>> > >>> > cloaked > >>> > >>> > > under a lie by calling it "traditionally under use > for the> > > >>> > annual > >>> > >>> > yatra > >>> > >>> > > purpose". The traditional route for over a century > is> > the > >>> > Pahalgam > >>> > >>> > route. > >>> > >>> > > The Baltal route is a recent demand. It was> > > regarded by the > >>> Army > >>> > >>> and > >>> > >>> > > Nitish Sengupta Report as dangerous. It is> > also > unnecessary>>> if > >>> > the > >>> > >>> > limit > >>> > >>> > > of yatris set by the Report (1 lakh) is> > > observed.> >> > 3. > >>> This > >>> > >>> > violates > >>> > >>> > > the citizen's fundamental right under Art. 19 (1) D> > > to move > >>> > freely > >>> > >>> > > throughout India. The demand of exclusivity was not> > > made > >>> even in > >>> > >>> May > >>> > >>> > 2008 > >>> > >>> > > or in decades earlier. It is pure communal> > > aggression using > >>> the > >>> > >>> yatra > >>> > >>> > for > >>> > >>> > > political demonstration not religious> > piety.> >> > > 4. The > >>> > duration > >>> > >>> of > >>> > >>> > use > >>> > >>> > > is widened to cover pre and post yatra period.> > > Para 6 C > >>> first > >>> > says > >>> > >>> > that > >>> > >>> > > the land will be used "for the duration of> > the yatra" > >>> including > >>> > the > >>> > >>> > > period of preparations and winding up. But> > the > very next > >>> para > >>> > has > >>> > >>> > these > >>> > >>> > > sinister words: "The aforesaid land> > shall be used > according>>> to > >>> > the > >>> > >>> > > Board's requirements from time to> > time, including > for the > >>> > >>> following". > >>> > >>> > > There follow 9 measures including> > construction, > setting up > >>> of > >>> > the > >>> > >>> > sheds > >>> > >>> > > and shops etc. These can be> > done even beyond the > yatra>>> period > >>> > "from > >>> > >>> > time > >>> > >>> > > to time" and "according> > to the Board's > requirements"; may be > >>> all > >>> > >>> the > >>> > >>> > year > >>> > >>> > > around.> >> > 5. Para 8 of the order insisted that > the land > >>> "shall > >>> > >>> > return" > >>> > >>> > > to the> > State. This is dropped in the accord. This > >>> accomplishes > >>> > S.K. > >>> > >>> > > Sinha's> > objective— permanent use the year round.> > >> > 6. > >>> Also > >>> > >>> dropped > >>> > >>> > > totally is Para 4 on payment for user.> >> > 7. > Dropped too is > >>> Para > >>> > 6. > >>> > >>> An > >>> > >>> > > undertaking of "foolproof measures> > against water > pollution>>> and > >>> > Para > >>> > >>> 7 > >>> > >>> > on > >>> > >>> > > payment of fine for damage to> > the forest. There > is a pious > >>> > >>> provision > >>> > >>> > in > >>> > >>> > > accord Para 6 C (ix) among> > the objectives of land > user;>>> namely > >>> > >>> > > "undertaking measures relating to> > … preservation > of ecology" > >>> > etc. > >>> > >>> > Breach > >>> > >>> > > entails no fine.> >> > 8. The order of 26 May was > rescinded on > >>> 1 > >>> > July. > >>> > >>> > The > >>> > >>> > > accord will> > require a fresh order to implement > it. By itself > >>> the > >>> > >>> > accord > >>> > >>> > > has no> > legal force. Section 2(a) of the J&K Forest > >>> > (Conservation) > >>> > >>> Act > >>> > >>> > > 1997> > says "the Government shall not, except on a > resolution>>> of > >>> > the > >>> > >>> > > Council> > of Ministers based on the advice of the > Advisory>>> > >>> Committee"> > > >>> > >>> > > constituted under the Act "make any order directing > that any > >>> > forest> > > >>> > >>> > land > >>> > >>> > > or any portion thereof may be used for any non-forest > >>> purpose".> > > >>> > The > >>> > >>> > > earlier phrase "Council of ministers" merely was > revised by an> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > amendment > >>> > >>> > > in 2001 and the Forest Advisory Committee's advice > was> > added > >>> and > >>> > >>> made > >>> > >>> > > mandatory. "Council of Ministers" is specific. It > is> > > >>> different > >>> > from > >>> > >>> > "J&K > >>> > >>> > > Government" whose powers vest now in the> governor> > > alone. > >>> The > >>> > law > >>> > >>> > > intentionally provides the resolution as a > safeguard.> > This > >>> > Council > >>> > >>> can > >>> > >>> > > come into existence only after the next elections.> > > In any > >>> case > >>> > the > >>> > >>> > Forest > >>> > >>> > > Advisory Committees advice on 12 July 2007> > cannot > apply to > >>> this > >>> > new > >>> > >>> > > accord which must be vetted afresh by that> > > Committee. It was > >>> > given > >>> > >>> > before > >>> > >>> > > the Supreme Court's final judgment in> > the T M > Godavarman>>> case on > >>> > 23 > >>> > >>> > > November 2007 which lays down the law> > and makes > important>>> > >>> observations > >>> > >>> > on > >>> > >>> > > balancing development with> > protection of environment. > >>> Failure to > >>> > >>> > consider > >>> > >>> > > it vitiates the> > decision. Precisely based on > >>> misrepresentation > >>> > of > >>> > >>> > opinion > >>> > >>> > > of the> > deputy CM Muzaffar Hussain Beg and > advocate general > >>> Altaf > >>> > >>> Naik > >>> > >>> > > both> > of which were given in entirely difference > cases.> >> > > >>> The > >>> > >>> > accord > >>> > >>> > > lacks legal efficacy as well as moral and political> > > >>> legitimacy. > >>> > Any > >>> > >>> > order > >>> > >>> > > in its implementation will be void in law. It> > is > a pity that > >>> the > >>> > >>> state > >>> > >>> > > should bend all rules to buy peace with> > communal > forces>>> > including > >>> > >>> > promise > >>> > >>> > > to consider compensation for law-> > breakers. What of > >>> compensation > >>> > to > >>> > >>> > the > >>> > >>> > > Valley for the blockade? The> > parivar in Jammu has > already>>> begun > >>> > >>> asking > >>> > >>> > > for more. The Government> > has not bought peace but > trouble.>>> It is > >>> > >>> > > gunah-e-bey lazzat (sin> > without any taste.)> >> > > If the > >>> state > >>> > can > >>> > >>> > thus > >>> > >>> > > bend its knees before the Sangh parivar on an> > > issue like > >>> this, > >>> > what > >>> > >>> > hopes > >>> > >>> > > of justice can Kashmiris entertain when> > it comes to > >>> restoring > >>> > the > >>> > >>> > raped > >>> > >>> > > Article 370 to a status of worth and> > respect?> >> > > END> >> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > > >>> > > ======================================================================>>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > > >>> > >>> > > ==> > =======================> >> >> >> > > >>> > >>> > > _________________________________________> > reader- > list: an > >>> open > >>> > >>> > discussion > >>> > >>> > > list on media and the city.> > Critiques & > Collaborations> > To > >>> > >>> > subscribe: > >>> > >>> > > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > >>> subscribe > >>> > in > >>> > >>> the > >>> > >>> > > subject header.> > To unsubscribe: > >>> > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > List > >>> > archive: > >>> > >>> < > >>> > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > > Shuddhabrata>>> > >>> Sengupta> > >>> > >>> > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS> Raqs Media Collective> > >>> > shuddha at sarai.net > >>> > >>> > > >>> > >>> > > www.sarai.net> www.raqsmediacollective.net> > > > >>> > >>> > > _______________________________________=5F_> reader- > list: an open > >>> > >>> > discussion > >>> > >>> > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & > Collaborations> To > >>> > subscribe: > >>> > >>> > send > >>> > >>> > > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in> > >>> the > >>> > >>> subject > >>> > >>> > > header.> To unsubscribe: > >>> > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List > >>> > archive: < > >>> > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > > > > >>> > >>> > > _________________________________________> reader- > list: an open > >>> > >>> > discussion > >>> > >>> > > list on media and the city.> Critiques & > Collaborations> To > >>> > subscribe: > >>> > >>> > send > >>> > >>> > > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > >>> the > >>> > >>> subject > >>> > >>> > > header.> To unsubscribe: > >>> > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List > >>> > archive: < > >>> > >>> > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >>> > >>> > > > >>> _________________________________________________________________ > >>> > >>> > > Want to explore the world? Visit MSN Travel for the > best deals. > >>> > >>> > > http://in.msn.com/coxandkings > >>> > >>> > > _________________________________________ > >>> > >>> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > >>> > >>> > > Critiques & Collaborations > >>> > >>> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > request at sarai.netwith>>> > >>> > > subscribe in the subject header. > >>> > >>> > > To unsubscribe: > >>> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> > >>> > > List archive: > > >>> > >>> > _________________________________________ > >>> > >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city.>>> > >>> > Critiques & Collaborations > >>> > >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > request at sarai.netwith>>> > >>> > subscribe in the subject header. > >>> > >>> > To unsubscribe: > >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> > >>> > List archive: list/>>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> > >>> Rashneek Kher > >>> > >>> Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten Human Tragedy > >>> > >>> http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com > >>> > >>> http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com > >>> > >>> _________________________________________ > >>> > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > request at sarai.net with > >>> > >>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>> > >>> To unsubscribe: > >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> > >>> List archive: list/>>>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > > _________________________________________ > >>> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> > > Critiques & Collaborations > >>> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > request at sarai.net with > >>> > subscribe in the subject header. > >>> > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> > > List archive: > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > -- > >>> > > >>> > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > >>> > _________________________________________ > >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> > Critiques & Collaborations > >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with>>> > subscribe in the subject header. > >>> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >>> > List archive: > >>> > > >>> _________________________________________ > >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >>> Critiques & Collaborations > >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >>> subscribe in the subject header. > >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list>>> List archive: > >>> > >> > >> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From ishwarsridharan at yahoo.com Sat Sep 6 16:42:25 2008 From: ishwarsridharan at yahoo.com (Ishwar) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 04:12:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions Message-ID: <233411.85253.qm@web31811.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Kudos to a well-written reply, andofcourse, to TeadBeeDi too :) While we're at it, how about a little bit of thought on this too? While questioning religious communities' monopoly on "hurt", one must also take into consideration frameworks. Religious frameworks by their very nature have the concept of blasphemy, to various degrees, be it 'kadavul kutram' (blasphemous talk against the divine) from where I come, to blasphemy laws, etc.wherein the concept of individual liberty is weighed down in front of a higher divine. As liberals(or feminists or apathetists, or any ists), we have chosen/adopted/devised our own framework which channelises such hurt to productive means.The world has other frameworks too. Taking this concept of channelising hurt to a different religious framework and expecting it to be adopted/respected is as naive as, say, a scientist expecting his/her ideas on non-existence of god, or proof of evolution to be accepted by the religious community. That religious frameworks can change is a different discussion altogether. Ishwar Just another resurrected Neozoic Archosaur comics. http://www.flickr.com/photos/mojosaurus/sets/72157600257724083/ ----- Original Message ---- From: Aarti Sethi To: inder salim Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Thursday, September 4, 2008 2:39:27 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions A few thoughts on an interesting discussion. One term I think that has remained unexamined in this discussion is "hurt" or "sentiment". By this I mean not an assessment of whether that hurt is justified, valid etc, who is to decide whether this offends or not, whether this is offensive or not, the relative self-sufficiency of value systems and speaking across them. But the inherent value of hurt as a positive force in itself. Let me try and explain what I mean. Why is "hurt sentiment" a bad thing in itself? Can having one's sentiments hurt, sometimes quite badly, not be a positive force? Might it not impell me to re-think, or think, about my sentiments in a manner that is creative? Maybe those sentiments are better discarded. Maybe my outrage alerts me to a violence I have been commiting without realising it. Maybe if more people's sentiments were outraged a little more forcefully, then we would be living in a far more democratic and tolerant world. Further, I do not see why only religious communities have a monopoly on sentiments which can then be hurt. As a feminist, my sentiments are assaulted on a routine and regular basis. As someone who believes in a version of social justice and equality, once articulated by, but not only by, Marx for instance, my feelings are continually trampled over. As someone who believes in a secular vision, the discussions on this list offend me everyday. However i do not see this being taken very seriously. And it needn't, that is the point. It is up to me to alchemize this outrage, hurt, sadness in a manner that enables me to live and act in the world. This is actually how we live our lives generally. My mother, or father, or lover, or friend might say something that hurts me terribly. Not always is this clarified, discussed, put in its right perspective. All our lives are all littered with silent archives of hurts we have never expressed. There is no heroic moment in which resolution is sought for hurts. And no one can do this for anyone... The recent Vogue advertisements doing the rounds, around which there has been some discussion on this list, have hurt the sentiments of many people. A few years ago another set of advertisements for brand equity in which two tribal women are shown discussing the tans they have got in Monte Carlo to an accompanying snide and contemptous copy which said something about how advertisers need to accurately reach their consumers, also outraged many of us. Having thought about this, I realised that though both the Vogue ads and the brand equity ads trouble me, they do so in different ways. The Vogue ads can be read in one of many ways - that it posits a horizon of desire that is unachievable for the people it uses for the ad. In some sense then the frisson of the ad derives from the discrepancy in what is desired and what is possible. Further it assumes that their horizon of desire will follow the trajectory laid out by Vogue. But most interesting to me is that both Vogue and the critics work with a fixed definition of poverty in the first place, and certain trajectory of the direction a life can take. The second set of ads function on precisely the opposite principle. Rather than positing an eventual horizon of desire, they deem a present life as failed, and urges us to recognise its failure. It presumes and makes me complicit in a social consensus in which we can use languages in a manner as if we are all agreed on the terms in operation. Can you see the difference in both ads? They both trouble me deeply, but they trouble me in different ways. How is this at all useful, or valuable? I think it is. I think to be able to carefully work through how and why and in what ways something arrives to me and what it disturbs is a critical thing, if we are to fashion any sort of language to deal with the violence of the present. with regards Aarti On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 11:00 PM, inder salim wrote: > dear yousuf > > thanks for response. > > no i dont agree that people are killing each other because Hussain > painted this or that, People want to kill people and there is always > an excuse available. We will always not blame people for that because > people have ceased to be people with their existential choice to be ' > being-in-itself'. Prime symbols of our society have perhaps > cultivated bad tastes because of a deep bourgiouse-captilist-fascist > leanings. We are indeed in a deep mess. For example, Sudhir Kakkar > talks about how unresolved sexuality has a deep relationship with > violence. Now who is the culprit. At least Artists are trying to heal > themselves. let them, even if people are not healed... > > about what is good to society ? Stalin's USSR did this mistake and > killed lot of intellectuals poets and artists, Theortically what, > poets are artists were doing at time had little relevance to the times > ' of bolshivik ' but in the end we can see how wrong was that policy > of actually believing what is good for society and what is not. We > need to provide a space to everything for everybody. > > People like TV reality and other such heaps of trash....., how much > we can carry is seriously with us, you know better, at least i cant > take the popular bullshit of saas Bahu and bootnath serials. > > About market and art via ' conspiracy of art' we already know Hussain > sahib is not in a great spiritual health. But a fanatic has no right > to dislodge something which is already dislodged by the Tusnami of > sheer profitalbity of americansim.. > > > love > is > > > On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 8:34 PM, Yousuf wrote: > > Dear Salim > > You are right, an artist should never have to explain. But Picasso > probably never had people killing each others angered by his paintings. But > (as we have discussed earlier on this theme) if you are doing an art for > public, would you not be concerned if the public appreciates it? No one is > born appreciating high art - we acquire a tastes for everything. The point > is, whose responsibity is it to inculcate the appreciation of art in > society? If its a Madhubani painting done on the facade of my village house > by my mother, its very much there in my genes. But if it is a horse by > Hussain kept in a gallery to which I have no access, somebody has to do a > bit of explaining on why such art is distanced from social reality (which > actually is not, but the market has made it look so). > > > > Yousuf > > > > > > --- On Wed, 9/3/08, inder salim wrote: > > > >> From: inder salim > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions > >> To: reader-list at sarai.net > >> Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 7:14 PM > >> Picasso said, if it is possible to explian, it is futile to > >> paint. > >> > >> even if i we gnore picasso, who is an old hat in modern art > >> now, let > >> alone hussain sahib who is immensely supported by > >> investors, and 'post > >> colonialism' as theoritical justificaioin to do > >> whatever he or we > >> sometimes are doing which can pass as derivate at the > >> best. > >> > >> what is education or what is not , what is offensive or > >> what is not, > >> is difficult to explain, if one chases the text, and its > >> meaning > >> profoundly... > >> > >> what we forget also is the fact that what we see are > >> phtographs of the > >> the original > >> > >> .and is photogaphy representing real, if so then we have > >> truly > >> disappeared from the face of this earth. and it does not > >> matter if > >> there is hussain or not, > >> > >> there is book by Jean Baudilard ' conspiracy of > >> art' > >> which speaks the contemporary art practices , and that > >> makes us feel > >> that the whole world is in fact a piece of modern art work > >> , and we > >> are not there, simple not part of it. > >> > >> the question of relevance of hussain in our social > >> structures is open > >> to this sort of criticism, > >> > >> but not once it lands as amunition in the hands of > >> fanatics. > >> > >> love > >> is > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 7:39 AM, Rahul Asthana > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > OK, I think we are almost on the same page now.If by > >> educating you mean explaining;then I agree.Hussein might > >> explain why his painting was not meant to > >> offend,alternatively he may realize how and to what degree > >> its offensive, and he may decide its not worth it.It should > >> work both ways. > >> > I have no stake in whatever is decided,but as > >> Kshmendra has mentioned,the emphasis should be on > >> understanding and respecting the other,not educating them. > >> > > >> > --- On Tue, 9/2/08, Yousuf > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > > From: Yousuf > >> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and > >> Transgressions > >> > > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > >> , rahul_capri at yahoo.com > >> > > Cc: "Sarai list" > >> > >> > > Date: Tuesday, September 2, 2008, 11:03 AM > >> > > Dear Rahul > >> > > Why are you so scared of the word > >> "education", > >> > > and why are you seeing it in such limited terms. > >> If you look > >> > > at my last mail, I agreed that your solution #3 > >> is good and > >> > > I'd be happy if it works. But I emphasized > >> about > >> > > dialogue as part of the education. Don't you > >> think > >> > > dialogue and communication between the two > >> conflicting > >> > > parties would be an integral part of even your > >> solution? > >> > > > >> > > What would you have to say about a > >> counselor/psychiatrist > >> > > who tries to resolve conflicts say between two > >> spouses. > >> > > His/her main role is to (a) know each side's > >> story, and > >> > > then (b) inform each spouse about the other's > >> problem > >> > > which was actually missing between them due to > >> long gaps of > >> > > non-communication. Most conflicts in the family > >> or society > >> > > occur because of the distance we create between > >> two parties > >> > > - we fear each other, imagine all sorts of > >> strange notions > >> > > about each other and strengthenthe hatred about > >> each other. > >> > > If only we talked, we could have realized that > >> much of our > >> > > fears were baseless. > >> > > > >> > > Hence I am simply talking about creating bridges > >> between > >> > > two parties through communication. Why can't > >> we for > >> > > instance have a meeting/workshop between Hussain > >> and the > >> > > religious fanatics where they tell each > >> other's story > >> > > and try to explain why each party needs to be > >> sensitive to > >> > > others' feelings. I know this will not > >> entirely remove > >> > > either party's deep prejudices, and may lead > >> to further > >> > > flaring up, but some moderation may also happen. > >> But I would > >> > > again emphasize that those thoughts and ideas of > >> both sides > >> > > which are required for the dialogue should at > >> least be > >> > > available for everyone to see and understand. For > >> instance, > >> > > we only get to see a lot of hate-propaganda from > >> the > >> > > religious fanatics against the artist, but never > >> see any > >> > > effort from Hussain or the art fraternity to > >> explain what > >> > > this art is all about, and why he makes what he > >> makes. The > >> > > artist thinks that he/she doesn't need to > >> explain > >> > > anything. > >> > > > >> > > I am sorry, but I don't follow terms like > >> reductionism, > >> > > teleology, deontology, so maybe I am sounding a > >> bit rigid to > >> > > you. > >> > > > >> > > Yousuf > >> > > > >> > > --- On Tue, 9/2/08, Rahul Asthana > >> > > wrote: > >> > > > >> > > > From: Rahul Asthana > >> > >> > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and > >> > > Transgressions > >> > > > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > >> > > , ysaeed7 at yahoo.com > >> > > > Cc: "Sarai list" > >> > > > >> > > > Date: Tuesday, September 2, 2008, 2:01 AM > >> > > > Dear Yousuf, > >> > > > Your argument is what I call reductionist > >> (from > >> > > > dictionary.com=2.the practice of simplifying > >> a complex > >> > > idea, > >> > > > issue, condition, or the like, esp. to the > >> point of > >> > > > minimizing, obscuring, or distorting it.). > >> > > > When you talk about "millions of issues > >> in our > >> > > society > >> > > > which people used to take with orthodox > >> > > attitude",you > >> > > > are basically creating a straw man.Many > >> orthodox > >> > > practices > >> > > > have to be given up;we have no difference on > >> that. > >> > > > When two deontologies collide,we have to > >> present a > >> > > > teleological argument in favor of one or the > >> other.In > >> > > other > >> > > > words,when two value frameworks reach > >> conflicting > >> > > position > >> > > > on an issue,we have two ways we can approach > >> the > >> > > > conflict.The one who favors one value > >> framework should > >> > > > present a comparison of the two frameworks > >> in terms of > >> > > > social cost-benefit,or,The one who favors > >> one value > >> > > > framework tries to educate the other one to > >> their > >> > > system > >> > > > just because its "better".Do you > >> see the > >> > > > difference between the two? > >> > > > Now, in an engagement of two groups on > >> perceived > >> > > social > >> > > > cost-benefit,there will be conflicts.Its > >> hard to > >> > > imagine how > >> > > > two groups will have same perception of > >> social > >> > > > cost-benefit.But at least we would be trying > >> to > >> > > resolve > >> > > > issues within a teleological framework which > >> is a lot > >> > > better > >> > > > than "my way is better than your way > >> and you have > >> > > to be > >> > > > educated to my way". > >> > > > > >> > > > Regards > >> > > > Rahul > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > gate social cost-benefit,and not on the > >> basis of what > >> > > one > >> > > > group thinks is right. > >> > > > > >> > > > --- On Mon, 9/1/08, Yousuf > >> > >> > > wrote: > >> > > > > >> > > > > From: Yousuf > >> > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life > >> and > >> > > > Transgressions > >> > > > > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > >> > > > , > >> rahul_capri at yahoo.com > >> > > > > Cc: "Sarai list" > >> > > > > >> > > > > Date: Monday, September 1, 2008, 9:12 > >> AM > >> > > > > Dear Rahul > >> > > > > I understand your logic, but I think > >> your > >> > > alternative > >> > > > no.3 > >> > > > > is too idealized and utopian to > >> achieve, although > >> > > I > >> > > > would > >> > > > > love if it works. Also, it may apply > >> only to some > >> > > > > situations, not all. For instance, if a > >> group of > >> > > > people > >> > > > > thinks that women are inferior and > >> should remain > >> > > > inside > >> > > > > homes, or that we should ruin the > >> environment by > >> > > > cutting > >> > > > > trees, wasting water and fuel, would > >> you allow > >> > > them to > >> > > > > believe and act on this? You may call > >> it my > >> > > > condescending > >> > > > > attitude, but why is it that we have > >> managed to > >> > > bring > >> > > > an > >> > > > > awareness and "reform" today > >> about so > >> > > many > >> > > > > millions of issues in our society which > >> people > >> > > used to > >> > > > take > >> > > > > with orthodox attitude. I am talking > >> about gender > >> > > > equality, > >> > > > > environment, education, health issues > >> (although > >> > > it is > >> > > > still > >> > > > > not enough). Nobody is born with > >> politically > >> > > correct > >> > > > genes - > >> > > > > we all acquire things as we grow. So > >> what's > >> > > the > >> > > > big deal > >> > > > > for instance about having arts > >> appreciation as > >> > > part of > >> > > > the > >> > > > > school curriculum or TV programmes. > >> Should we > >> > > allow > >> > > > our > >> > > > > mainstream media to remain > >> condescending then? > >> > > Why is > >> > > > > television changing the attitude of > >> people - why > >> > > is > >> > > > our > >> > > > > society becoming more consumerist and > >> aggressive > >> > > and > >> > > > > prejudiced? > >> > > > > Look my condescending solution > >> doesn't > >> > > involve > >> > > > simply > >> > > > > education - I am talking about dialogue > >> and > >> > > awareness, > >> > > > and > >> > > > > not talking down somebody's throat > >> which the > >> > > TV > >> > > > does > >> > > > > today. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Yousuf > >> > > > > > >> > > > > --- On Sun, 8/31/08, Rahul Asthana > >> > > > > wrote: > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > From: Rahul Asthana > >> > > > >> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of > >> Life and > >> > > > > Transgressions > >> > > > > > To: "Shuddhabrata > >> Sengupta" > >> > > > > , > >> ysaeed7 at yahoo.com > >> > > > > > Cc: "Sarai list" > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Date: Sunday, August 31, 2008, > >> 11:54 PM > >> > > > > > Yousuf, > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > I think i failed in getting my > >> point > >> > > across.No > >> > > > amount > >> > > > > of > >> > > > > > "education" would make > >> > > Hussein's > >> > > > art > >> > > > > > appreciated by some,and those who > >> are > >> > > offended by > >> > > > > > Hussein's art are no less > >> > > > "educated" > >> > > > > than you > >> > > > > > or me. > >> > > > > > Unless you get rid of your > >> condescension > >> > > about > >> > > > > educating > >> > > > > > people about what they should or > >> > > shouldn't > >> > > > get > >> > > > > offended > >> > > > > > by,any discussion about solution > >> to > >> > > conflicts > >> > > > like > >> > > > > this is a > >> > > > > > non-starter. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > I am going to make one last try > >> though. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Say there are two groups A and > >> B,with > >> > > different > >> > > > value > >> > > > > > systems.A is offended by an act X > >> and B is > >> > > > > not,apparently > >> > > > > > due to their different value > >> systems. B > >> > > > encourages X > >> > > > > and > >> > > > > > this increases tensions in a > >> society where A > >> > > and > >> > > > B > >> > > > > live > >> > > > > > together.Lets see what are the > >> possible > >> > > > solutions. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > 1.Both A and B tell each other to > >> go take a > >> > > hike > >> > > > and > >> > > > > they > >> > > > > > would do according to how they > >> feel fit. > >> > > > > > 2.Both A and B are sure that their > >> value > >> > > systems > >> > > > are > >> > > > > > superior and they try to convert > >> each other > >> > > to > >> > > > their > >> > > > > own > >> > > > > > view points through dialog etc. > >> > > > > > 3.Both A and B recognize that > >> there are > >> > > > irreconcilable > >> > > > > > differences in their world > >> views.They also > >> > > > recognize > >> > > > > that > >> > > > > > they would respect the differences > >> and try > >> > > to > >> > > > honor > >> > > > > them to > >> > > > > > the extent possible while also > >> trying to > >> > > achieve > >> > > > their > >> > > > > own > >> > > > > > goals through whatever means > >> possible. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > If liberal fanatics like you will > >> keep on > >> > > > engaging in > >> > > > > > #2,(which in my opinion is even > >> worse than > >> > > #1 > >> > > > because > >> > > > > #1 > >>> > > > > does not involve condescension) > >> that you are > >> > > > doing > >> > > > > right > >> > > > > > now,you will always enable > >> religious > >> > > fanatics > >> > > > from the > >> > > > > other > >> > > > > > side who will try to convert you > >> to their > >> > > view > >> > > > > point.Why is > >> > > > > > their stand less valid than yours? > >> > > > > > If you engage in #3 ,you will > >> enable > >> > > moderates > >> > > > from > >> > > > > the > >> > > > > > other side who will listen to you > >> if you > >> > > listen > >> > > > to > >> > > > > them. > >> > > > > > The big leap of understanding that > >> you need > >> > > to > >> > > > make is > >> > > > > that > >> > > > > > there can be two internally > >> consistent value > >> > > > systems > >> > > > > which > >> > > > > > will lead to opposing positions on > >> many > >> > > > issues,and > >> > > > > both > >> > > > > > these value systems are equally > >> valid. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Regards > >> > > > > > Rahul > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > --- On Sun, 8/31/08, Yousuf > >> > > > > >> > > > > > wrote: > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > From: Yousuf > >> > >> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] > >> Ways of Life > >> > > and > >> > > > > > Transgressions > >> > > > > > > To: "Shuddhabrata > >> Sengupta" > >> > > > > > , > >> > > rahul_capri at yahoo.com > >> > > > > > > Cc: "Sarai list" > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Date: Sunday, August 31, > >> 2008, 9:40 AM > >> > > > > > > When I mention education, I > >> primarily > >> > > > include > >> > > > > media in > >> > > > > > it. > >> > > > > > > But the media is careless and > >> works > >> > > only on > >> > > > the > >> > > > > > diktats of > >> > > > > > > industry and politicians. So > >> the prime > >> > > > > responsibility > >> > > > > > (of > >> > > > > > > making sure that their art is > >> > > appreciated) > >> > > > falls > >> > > > > on > >> > > > > > the arts > >> > > > > > > fraternity itself. At least > >> until we > >> > > find a > >> > > > > better > >> > > > > > solution. > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > --- On Sat, 8/30/08, Rahul > >> Asthana > >> > > > > > > > >> wrote: > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > From: Rahul Asthana > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: > >> [Reader-list] Ways of > >> > > Life > >> > > > and > >> > > > > > > Transgressions > >> > > > > > > > To: "Shuddhabrata > >> > > Sengupta" > >> > > > > > > , > >> > > ysaeed7 at yahoo.com > >> > > > > > > > Cc: "Sarai > >> list" > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Date: Saturday, August > >> 30, 2008, > >> > > 9:58 > >> > > > PM > >> > > > > > > > "They have not been > >> educated > >> > > to > >> > > > > appreciate > >> > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > nuances > >> > > > > > > > of the medium or the > >> > > message." > >> > > > > > > > Yousuf, I am sorry but > >> that's > >> > > > > > condescending.By the > >> > > > > > > same > >> > > > > > > > token a religious person > >> can say > >> > > that > >> > > > the > >> > > > > artist > >> > > > > > has > >> > > > > > > not > >> > > > > > > > been taught the nuances > >> of > >> > > religious > >> > > > > > sensibilities.My > >> > > > > > > point > >> > > > > > > > is that if two groups > >> having > >> > > different > >> > > > > values > >> > > > > > have to > >> > > > > > > > coexist in a > >> society,they have to > >> > > be > >> > > > > tolerant > >> > > > > > towards > >> > > > > > > each > >> > > > > > > > other. > >> > > > > > > > I do not advocate any > >> limit to the > >> > > > freedom > >> > > > > of > >> > > > > > > > expression,but there > >> should not be > >> > > > complete > >> > > > > > > callousness > >> > > > > > > > towards the feelings of > >> > > groups.Painters > >> > > > like > >> > > > > > Hussein > >> > > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > > other heretics would > >> always keep > >> > > > producing > >> > > > > works > >> > > > > > that > >> > > > > > > would > >> > > > > > > > offend,and perhaps thats > >> necessary > >> > > > too;but > >> > > > > if > >> > > > > > some of > >> > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > people in the media,and > >> I do not > >> > > mean > >> > > > the > >> > > > > media > >> > > > > > which > >> > > > > > > > actually represents > >> these groups, > >> > > can > >> > > > > understand > >> > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > voice > >> > > > > > > > their feelings,then > >> emotions would > >> > > > probably > >> > > > > not > >> > > > > > flare > >> > > > > > > up to > >> > > > > > > > that extent. > >> > > > > > > > That is the middle way. > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 8/30/08, > >> Yousuf > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > wrote: > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > From: Yousuf > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: > >> [Reader-list] > >> > > Ways of > >> > > > Life > >> > > > > and > >> > > > > > > > Transgressions > >> > > > > > > > > To: > >> "Shuddhabrata > >> > > > Sengupta" > >> > > > > > > > > >> , > >> > > > > rahul_capri at yahoo.com > >> > > > > > > > > Cc: "Sarai > >> list" > >> > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > Date: Saturday, > >> August 30, > >> > > 2008, > >> > > > 9:31 > >> > > > > PM > >> > > > > > > > > Dear Rahul > >> > > > > > > > > I had difficulty > >> following > >> > > your > >> > > > first > >> > > > > > sentence > >> > > > > > > (and a > >> > > > > > > > few > >> > > > > > > > > others), but yes, > >> to put it > >> > > in > >> > > > simple > >> > > > > > language, > >> > > > > > > people > >> > > > > > > > have > >> > > > > > > > > been offended by > >> > > Hussain's > >> > > > > paintings, > >> > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > they are > >> > > > > > > > not > >> > > > > > > > > always at fault. > >> They have > >> > > not > >> > > > been > >> > > > > educated > >> > > > > > to > >> > > > > > > > appreciate > >> > > > > > > > > the nuances of the > >> medium or > >> > > the > >> > > > > message. > >> > > > > > And the > >> > > > > > > art > >> > > > > > > > > fraternity > >> doesn't have > >> > > the > >> > > > urge to > >> > > > > go > >> > > > > > to the > >> > > > > > > > people and > >> > > > > > > > > explain what they > >> do and why > >> > > they > >> > > > do. > >> > > > > The > >> > > > > > > politician > >> > > > > > > > of > >> > > > > > > > > course is too happy > >> to cash > >> > > in on > >> > > > the > >> > > > > > ignorance > >> > > > > > > of the > >> > > > > > > > > public. > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Incidentally, > >> countless > >> > > > > > provocative/blasphemous > >> > > > > > > art or > >> > > > > > > > > statements have > >> been made in > >> > > the > >> > > > past > >> > > > > but > >> > > > > > not all > >> > > > > > > of > >> > > > > > > > them > >> > > > > > > > > led to a public > >> outcry. > >> > > Almost all > >> > > > > known > >> > > > > > cases > >> > > > > > > where a > >> > > > > > > > piece > >> > > > > > > > > of art/literature > >> has led to > >> > > > violence, > >> > > > > are > >> > > > > > those > >> > > > > > > where > >> > > > > > > > > somebody (or some > >> political > >> > > party) > >> > > > used > >> > > > > them > >> > > > > > to > >> > > > > > > spread > >> > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > flames. In most > >> cases, the > >> > > > protesters > >> > > > > > haven't > >> > > > > > > seen > >> > > > > > > > or > >> > > > > > > > > read what they have > >> been > >> > > > protesting > >> > > > > against. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > So, should the > >> artists make > >> > > such > >> > > >> provocative > >> > > > > > > works > >> > > > > > > > only for > >> > > > > > > > > themselves or their > >> closest > >> > > > friends, > >> > > > > and > >> > > > > > never > >> > > > > > > allow > >> > > > > > > > them to > >> > > > > > > > > go public. Or > >> should they > >> > > (and > >> > > > their > >> > > > > > > institutions) > >> > > > > > > > create an > >> > > > > > > > > atmosphere of > >> awareness where > >>> > the > >> > > > > public can > >> > > > > > > > appreciate > >> > > > > > > > > their art and not > >> tear it > >> > > apart? I > >> > > > > don't > >> > > > > > find > >> > > > > > > a > >> > > > > > > > third > >> > > > > > > > > alternative. > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > Yousuf > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, > >> 8/30/08, Rahul > >> > > Asthana > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > wrote: > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > From: Rahul > >> Asthana > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: > >> > > [Reader-list] > >> > > > Ways of > >> > > > > Life > >> > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > > > Transgressions > >> > > > > > > > > > To: > >> ysaeed7 at yahoo.com, > >> > > > > > "Shuddhabrata > >> > > > > > > > > Sengupta" > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Cc: > >> "Sarai > >> > > list" > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > Date: > >> Saturday, August > >> > > 30, > >> > > > 2008, > >> > > > > 8:42 > >> > > > > > PM > >> > > > > > > > > > Dear Yousuf, > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > I think the > >> classic > >> > > liberal > >> > > > stand > >> > > > > of > >> > > > > > > reductionist > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> extrapolation,in which > >> > > one > >> > > > > develops > >> > > > > > certain > >> > > > > > > set > >> > > > > > > > of > >> > > > > > > > > canonical > >> > > > > > > > > > principles and > >> expects > >> > > them > >> > > > to > >> > > > > govern > >> > > > > > all > >> > > > > > > > discourse on > >> > > > > > > > > a > >> > > > > > > > > > certain topic, > >> is not > >> > > > necessarily > >> > > > > > > philosophically > >> > > > > > > > > incorrect > >> > > > > > > > > > from their > >> point of > >> > > view,but > >> > > > > > insufficient > >> > > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > > improper > >> > > > > > > > > if we > >> > > > > > > > > > want to live > >> in a > >> > > tolerant > >> > > > liberal > >> > > > > > society.I > >> > > > > > > will > >> > > > > > > > try > >> > > > > > > > > to > >> > > > > > > > > > elaborate: > >> > > > > > > > > > The point is > >> not that > >> > > Hussein > >> > > > as a > >> > > > > > Muslim > >> > > > > > > can > >> > > > > > > > paint > >> > > > > > > > > Hindu > >> > > > > > > > > > deities,nude > >> or > >> > > otherwise or > >> > > > > whether > >> > > > > > his > >> > > > > > > > intention was > >> > > > > > > > > to > >> > > > > > > > > > insult,or > >> not.The point > >> > > is > >> > > > also > >> > > > > not > >> > > > > > that the > >> > > > > > > his > >> > > > > > > > > paintings > >> > > > > > > > > > can be > >> artistic and > >> > > break new > >> > > > > grounds > >> > > > > > of > >> > > > > > > > expression > >> > > > > > > > > > etc.Neither is > >> it the > >> > > point > >> > > > that > >> > > > > he > >> > > > > > should > >> > > > > > > have > >> > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > freedom > >> > > > > > > > > > of expression > >> to paint > >> > > > whatever he > >> > > > > > wants.The > >> > > > > > > > point is > >> > > > > > > > > also > >> > > > > > > > > > not that the > >> people who > >> > > > attacked > >> > > > > him > >> > > > > > were > >> > > > > > > wrong. > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > The point that > >> I have > >> > > been > >> > > > trying > >> > > > > to > >> > > > > > make is > >> > > > > > > that > >> > > > > > > > all > >> > > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > above things > >> are > >> > > true;but > >> > > > still a > >> > > > > > painting > >> > > > > > > that > >> > > > > > > > he has > >> > > > > > > > > made > >> > > > > > > > > > can be > >> offensive to many > >> > > > > people.Now,the > >> > > > > > > classic > >> > > > > > > > > reductionist > >> > > > > > > > > > line here is > >> > > that,offense is > >> > > > > > > > subjective.Obviously,we > >> > > > > > > > > > can't be > >> bothered > >> > > about > >> > > > every > >> > > > > > person who > >> > > > > > > > takes > >> > > > > > > > > offense > >> > > > > > > > > > at any random > >> stuff, can > >> > > > we?To > >> > > > > that I > >> > > > > > would > >> > > > > > > say, > >> > > > > > > > using > >> > > > > > > > > our > >> > > > > > > > > > own personal > >> > > > judgment,depending > >> > > > > upon > >> > > > > > our > >> > > > > > > > interactions > >> > > > > > > > > with > >> > > > > > > > > > people, we can > >> make out > >> > > most > >> > > > of > >> > > > > the > >> > > > > > times > >> > > > > > > if > >> > > > > > > > > something is > >> > > > > > > > > > truly > >> offensive to a > >> > > large > >> > > > group > >> > > > > of > >> > > > > > people > >> > > > > > > or > >> > > > > > > > not.If > >> > > > > > > > > we > >> > > > > > > > > > can't,we > >> should talk > >> > > to > >> > > > > > people.IMHO,I > >> > > > > > > > don't > >> > > > > > > > > think I > >> > > > > > > > > > should take > >> the easy way > >> > > out > >> > > > of > >> > > > > hiding > >> > > > > > > behind the > >> > > > > > > > > principles > >> > > > > > > > > > of freedom of > >> expression > >> > > and > >> > > > > visual > >> > > > > > > metaphors > >> > > > > > > > etc.We > >> > > > > > > > > should > >> > > > > > > > > > always support > >> freedom > >> > > of > >> > > > > > expression,but if > >> > > > > > > we > >> > > > > > > > can > >> > > > > > > > > surmise > >> > > > > > > > > > that a > >> particular act of > >> > > art > >> > > > was > >> > > > > > done,when > >> > > > > > > it was > >> > > > > > > > > probably > >> > > > > > > > > > apparent that > >> it would > >> > > hurt > >> > > > the > >> > > > > > > sensibilities of > >> > > > > > > > a > >> > > > > > > > > large > >> > > > > > > > > > group of > >> people,we > >> > > should > >> > > > call it > >> > > > > for > >> > > > > > > "bad > >> > > > > > > > > taste". > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > If we have > >> respect for > >> > > and > >> > > > engage > >> > > > > in > >> > > > > > dialog > >> > > > > > > with > >> > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > moderates of > >> groups we > >> > > may > >> > > > not > >> > > > > have to > >> > > > > > deal > >> > > > > > > with > >> > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > extremists. > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Dear Shuddha, > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > I think you > >> mentioned > >> > > earlier > >> > > > how > >> > >> > > religious > >> > > > > > > > people > >> > > > > > > > > offend > >> > > > > > > > > > the > >> sensitivities of > >> > > > > atheists.Could you > >> > > > > > > please > >> > > > > > > > > elaborate? > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Thanks > >> > > > > > > > > > Rahul > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, > >> 8/30/08, > >> > > > Shuddhabrata > >> > > > > > Sengupta > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > wrote: > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > From: > >> Shuddhabrata > >> > > > Sengupta > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > Subject: > >> Re: > >> > > > [Reader-list] > >> > > > > Ways of > >> > > > > > Life > >> > > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > > > > Transgressions > >> > > > > > > > > > > To: > >> > > ysaeed7 at yahoo.com > >> > > > > > > > > > > Cc: > >> "Sarai > >> > > > list" > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > Date: > >> Saturday, > >> > > August > >> > > > 30, > >> > > > > 2008, > >> > > > > > 2:44 > >> > > > > > > AM > >> > > > > > > > > > > Dear > >> Yousuf, dear > >> > > all, > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > thank you > >> very > >> > > much, > >> > > > Yousuf > >> > > > > for > >> > > > > > your > >> > > > > > > mail. I > >> > > > > > > > > really > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> appreciate your > >> > > > > > > > > > > point of > >> drawing > >> > > > attention to > >> > > > > the > >> > > > > > > available > >> > > > > > > > > > vocabularies > >> of > >> > > > > > > > > > > visual > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> representation and > >> > > the > >> > > > way in > >> > > > > > which > >> > > > > > > they > >> > > > > > > > > determine or > >> > > > > > > > > > > influence > >> the > >> > > > > > > > > > > universe > >> of visual > >> > > > > > repsesentatiation, > >> > > > > > > if > >> > > > > > > > only to > >> > > > > > > > > > underline > >> > > > > > > > > > > the fact > >> > > > > > > > > > > that no > >> visual > >> > > artist is > >> > > > ever > >> > > > > > divorced > >> > > > > > > from > >> > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > context tat > >> > > > > > > > > > > they are > >> > > > > > > > > > > born > >> into. I have > >> > > > nowhere > >> > > > > written > >> > > > > > > about why > >> > > > > > > > > Husain > >> > > > > > > > > > does > >> > > > > > > > > > > not > >> choose > >> > > > > > > > > > > to > >> represent themes > >> > > from > >> > > > the > >> > > > > > Islamic > >> > > > > > > canon, > >> > > > > > > > and I > >> > > > > > > > > > totally > >> > > > > > > > > > > agree > >> with > >> > > > > > > > > > > you that > >> he does > >> > > not do > >> > > > so > >> > > > > because > >> > > > > > they > >> > > > > > > are > >> > > > > > > > not > >> > > > > > > > > > available > >> > > > > > > > > > > to him in > >> > > > > > > > > > > his > >> cultural miieu, > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > As for > >> apparently > >> > > > > transgressive > >> > > > > > cases > >> > > > > > > like > >> > > > > > > > > Husain or > >> > > > > > > > > > Dillu > >> > > > > > > > > > > Ram > >> > > > > > > > > > > Kausari, > >> I cannnot > >> > > see > >> > > > why > >> > > > > they > >> > > > > > should > >> > > > > > > not b > >> > > > > > > > > > celebrated. > >> > > > > > > > > > > Hindus > >> > > > > > > > > > > should > >> honour > >> > > Husain and > >> > > > > Muslims > >> > > > > > should > >> > > > > > > > honour > >> > > > > > > > > Dillu > >> > > > > > > > > > Ram. > >> > > > > > > > > > > In this > >> way > >> > > > > > > > > > > they > >> would ensure > >> > > that > >> > > > acts > >> > > > > of > >> > > > > > > 'road > >> > > > > > > > > crossing' > >> > > > > > > > > > need > >> > > > > > > > > > > not > >> necessarily > >> > > > > > > > > > > end in > >> lethal > >> > > accidents, > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > warm > >> regards, and > >> > > hoping > >> > > > for > >> > > > > many > >> > > > > > more > >> > > > > > > road > >> > > > > > > > > crossings, > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > Shuddha > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > On > >> 29-Aug-08, at > >> > > 8:25 > >> > > > PM, > >> > > > > Yousuf > >> > > > > > Saeed > >> > > > > > > > wrote: > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > Dear > >> Shuddha, > >> > > > others > >> > > > > > > > > > > > I > >> really > >> > > appreciate > >> > > > your > >> > > > > > > highlighting > >> > > > > > > > of the > >> > > > > > > > > fact > >> > > > > > > > > > that > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hussain's > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> intention may > >> > > not > >> > > > be of > >> > > > > > insulting > >> > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > Hindus > >> > > > > > > > > by > >> > > > > > > > > > > drawing > >> the deities > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > in > >> the nude or > >> > > > > otherwise. I > >> > > > > > am not > >> > > > > > > a > >> > > > > > > > > defender of > >> > > > > > > > > > > Hussain, > >> but would > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > like > >> to put > >> > > across > >> > > > a few > >> > > > > > points. > >> > > > > > > Many > >> > > > > > > > people > >> > > > > > > > > (on > >> > > > > > > > > > this > >> > > > > > > > > > > list and > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> elsewhere) > >> > > have > >> > > > pointed > >> > > > > out > >> > > > > > that > >> > > > > > > > Hussain > >> > > > > > > > > never > >> > > > > > > > > > drew > >> > > > > > > > > > > any > >> Muslim > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> character > >> > > (such as > >> > > > the > >> > > > > > Prophet) in > >> > > > > > > this > >> > > > > > > > > manner, > >> > > > > > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > > > > > therefore > >> his > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> intention must > >> > > be > >> > > > to > >> > > > > insult > >> > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > Hindus. > >> > > > > > > > They > >> > > > > > > > > also > >> > > > > > > > > > say > >> > > > > > > > > > > that such > >> an > >> > > > > > > > > > > > act > >> by any > >> > > artist > >> > > > in a > >> > > > > Muslim > >> > > > > > > country > >> > > > > > > > (like > >> > > > > > > > > Saudi > >> > > > > > > > > > > Arabia) > >> would > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> result in > >> > > death > >> > > > penalty, > >> > > > > and > >> > > > > > so > >> > > > > > > on. But > >> > > > > > > > > maybe > >> > > > > > > > > > Hussain > >> > > > > > > > > > > did not > >> draw > >> > > > > > > > > > > > an > >> Islamic > >> > > > character in > >> > > > > an > >> > > > > > > > > > >> "immodest" > >> > > > > > > > > > > posture > >> simply > >> > > because > >> > > > such > >> > > > > > > > > > > > an > >> image or > >> > > icon > >> > > > > doesn't > >> > > > > > exist > >> > > > > > > in the > >> > > > > > > > > > Islam's > >> > > > > > > > > > > visual > >> cultural > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> tradition. If > >> > > he > >> > > > does > >> > > > > it, > >> > > > > > then > >> > > > > > > that > >> > > > > > > > would be > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> deliberately > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> provocative > >> > > > (although I > >> > > > > am > >> > > > > > not > >> > > > > > > saying > >> > >> > > > > it > >> > > > > > > > > > shouldn't > >> > > > > > > > > > > be done). > >> But he > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> could draw a > >> > > Hindu > >> > > > deity > >> > > > > in > >> > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > nude > >> > > > > > > > because > >> > > > > > > > > such > >> > > > > > > > > > a > >> > > > > > > > > > > tradition > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> exists in our > >> > > > Indian > >> > > > > visual > >> > > > > > > culture. I > >> > > > > > > > doubt > >> > > > > > > > > if > >> > > > > > > > > > he > >> > > > > > > > > > > avoids > >> > > > > > > > > > > > the > >> depiction > >> > > of > >> > > > Muslim > >> > > > > > themes > >> > > > > > > because > >> > > > > > > > he > >> > > > > > > > > is > >> > > > > > > > > > scared > >> > > > > > > > > > > of the > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Islamists. > >> > > Maybe he > >> > > > > simply > >> > > > > > > can't > >> > > > > > > > relate > >> > > > > > > > > to it > >> > > > > > > > > > as > >> > > > > > > > > > > an > >> Indian. > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > If I > >> as an > >> > > artist > >> > > > cannot > >> > > > > > express > >> > > > > > > my > >> > > > > > > > certain > >> > > > > > > > > > feelings > >> > > > > > > > > > > in the > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> language that > >> > > has > >> > > > been > >> > > > > taught > >> > > > > > to > >> > > > > > > be me > >> > > > > > > > by my > >> > > > > > > > > > parents, > >> > > > > > > > > > > and I > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> suddenly > >> > > discover a > >> > > > new > >> > > > > > language > >> > > > > > > that > >> > > > > > > > allows > >> > > > > > > > > me > >> > > > > > > > > > to > >> > > > > > > > > > > express > >> that > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> peculiar > >> > > feeling in > >> > > > a > >> > > > > much > >> > > > > > better > >> > > > > > > way > >> > > > > > > > than > >> > > > > > > > > what > >> > > > > > > > > > my > >> > > > > > > > > > > mother > >> tongue > >> > > > > > > > > > > > did, > >> I would > >> > > be > >> > > > happy to > >> > > > > use > >> > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > new > >> > > > > > > > > language. > >> > > > > > > > > > There > >> > > > > > > > > > > are > >> thousands > >> > > > > > > > > > > > of > >> poets and > >> > > > artists who > >> > > > > > found a > >> > > > > > > new > >> > > > > > > > way of > >> > > > > > > > > > expression > >> > > > > > > > > > > in a > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> language which > >> > > > every one > >> > > > > in > >> > > > > > their > >> > > > > > > midst > >> > > > > > > > had > >> > > > > > > > > found > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > "inferior" – > >> > > > I am > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> talking for > >> > > example > >> > > > of > >> > > > > the > >> > > > > > > tradition of > >> > > > > > > > > Persian > >> > > > > > > > > > poets > >> > > > > > > > > > > of South > >> Asia > >> > > > > > > > > > > > who > >> also wrote > >> > > > verses in > >> > > > > > Hindi or > >> > > > > > > > Hinduvi. > >> > > > > > > > > While > >> > > > > > > > > > poets > >> > > > > > > > > > > such as > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Masud Sa'd > >> > > > Salman, > >> > > > > Amir > >> > > > > > > Khusrau, > >> > > > > > > > > Abdurrahim > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Khane-khana, > >> > > Ghalib, or > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Iqbal became > >> > > famous > >> > > > for > >> > > > > their > >> > > > > > > exquisite > >> > > > > > > > > verse in > >> > > > > > > > > > > Persian, > >> their > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> heart pours > >> > > out > >> > > > better > >> > > > > in > >> > > > > > their > >> > > > > > > > Hinduvi, > >> > > > > > > > > Urdu or > >> > > > > > > > > > Braj > >> > > > > > > > > > > poetry > >> where > >> > > > > > > > > > > > they > >> can come > >> > > down > >> > > > to > >> > > > > the > >> > > > > > earth > >> > > > > > > from > >> > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > lofty > >> > > > > > > > > > royal > >> > > > > > > > > > > palaces. > >> We > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> often say, > >> > > > "Unki > >> > > > > Hindi > >> > > > > > > shayeri > >> > > > > > > > mein > >> > > > > > > > > mitti ki > >> > > > > > > > > > > khushbu > >> aati > >> > > hai" > >> > > > (one > >> > > > > > > > > > > > can > >> smell the > >> > > earth > >> > > > in > >> > > > > their > >> > > > > > > vernacular > >> > > > > > > > > poetry). > >> > > > > > > > > > And I > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> think Hussain > >> > > is > >> > > > no > >> > > > > > different > >> > > > > > > from > >> > > > > > > > them. He > >> > > > > > > > > > cannot > >> > > > > > > > > > > draw an > >> Islamic > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> character in > >> > > the > >> > > > nude > >> > > > > because > >> > > > > > > it's > >> > > > > > > > > probably > >> > > > > > > > > > not in > >> > > > > > > > > > > his > >> palette, or > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> doesn't > >> > > touch > >> > > > his > >> > > > > heart. > >> > > > > > (And > >> > > > > > > we > >> > > > > > > > cannot > >> > > > > > > > > force > >> > > > > > > > > > him > >> > > > > > > > > > > to do it > >> to > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> become more > >> > > > politically > >> > > > > > correct). > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > You > >> may say > >> > > that a > >> > > > lot > >> > > > > of > >> > > > > > > > semi-pornographic > >> > > > > > > > > > scenes > >> > > > > > > > > > > have been > >> drawn > >> > > > > > > > > > > > in > >> Mughal or > >> > > > Persian > >> > > > > > miniatures, > >> > > > > > > and he > >> > > > > > > > > could > >> > > > > > > > > > have > >> > > > > > > > > > > followed > >> that. > >> > > > > > > > > > > > But > >> that's > >> > > not > >> > > > the > >> > > > > point. > >> > > > > > > Hindu > >> > > > > > > > deities > >> > > > > > > > > are > >> > > > > > > > > > > flexible > >> enough for > >> > > us > >> > > > > > > > > > > > to > >> turn them > >> > > around > >> > > > the > >> > > > > way > >> > > > > > we > >> > > > > > > wish, to > >> > > > > > > > > express a > >> > > > > > > > > > > certain > >> feeling > >> > > > > > > > > > > > that > >> cannot be > >> > > > expressed > >> > > > > any > >> > > > > > other > >> > > > > > > way. > >> > > > > > > > So > >> > > > > > > > > why > >> > > > > > > > > > not > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> appreciate and > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> celebrate that > >> > > > fact. (I > >> > > > > know > >> > > > > > such > >> > > > > > > a > >> > > > > > > > > statement > >> > > > > > > > > > from me > >> > > > > > > > > > > might > >> raise > >> > > > > > > > > > > > some > >> > > eyebrows). I > >> > > > maybe > >> > > > > a > >> > > > > > Muslim > >> > > > > > > but I > >> > > > > > > > > appreciate > >> > > > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > > fact that > >> you > >> > > > > > > > > > > > can > >> literally > >> > > play > >> > > > with > >> > > > > many > >> > > > > > Hindu > >> > > > > > > > deities. > >> > > > > > > > > Just > >> > > > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > > other day > >> I > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> heard Pandit > >> > > Jasraj > >> > > > sing > >> > > > > a > >> > > > > > khayal > >> > > > > > > in > >> > > > > > > > which > >> > > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > lyrics > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> repeatedly > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> referred to > >> > > Krishna > >> > > > as a > >> > > > > chor > >> > > > > > > (thief). > >> > > > > > > > Does > >> > > > > > > > > that > >> > > > > > > > > > > insult a > >> Hindu? Or > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> would it > >> > > insult a > >> > > > Hindu > >> > > > > if > >> > > > > > this > >> > > > > > > khayal > >> > > > > > > > was > >> > > > > > > > > sung > >> > > > > > > > > > by > >> > > > > > > > > > > Ustad > >> Amir Khan? > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> (Incidentally, > >> > > a > >> > > > large > >> > > > > number > >> > > > > > of > >> > > > > > > > traditional > >> > > > > > > > > > Hindu > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> devotional > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> lyrics sung in > >> > > > classical > >> > > > > > music > >> > > > > > > have > >> > > > > > > > reached > >> > > > > > > > > us > >> > > > > > > > > > via > >> > > > > > > > > > > Muslim > >> gharana > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> musicians, and > >> > > much > >> > > > of > >> > > > > > devotional > >> > > > > > > Hindu > >> > > > > > > > > visual > >> > > > > > > > > > > mythology > >> has come > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > to > >> us via > >> > > patwa > >> > > >artists > >> > > > > of > >> > > > > > Bengal > >> > > > > > > who > >> > > > > > > > are > >> > > > > > > > > > > > all > >> Muslim. > >> > > Can > >> > > > > M.F.Hussain > >> > > > > > be > >> > > > > > > > detached > >> > > > > > > > > from > >> > > > > > > > > > that > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> continuity?) > >> > > > > > > > > > > > Much > >> of the > >> > > popular > >> > > > > calendar > >> > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > poster > >> > > > > > > > art > >> > > > > > > > > of > >> > > > > > > > > > 20th > >> > > > > > > > > > > century > >> showing > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hindu deities > >> > > was > >> > > > drawn > >> > > > > by an > >> > > > > > > artist > >> > > > > > > > called > >> > > > > > > > > Hasan > >> > > > > > > > > > Raza > >> > > > > > > > > > > Raja of > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Meerut. And > >> > > the > >> > > > manner > >> > > > > in > >> > > > > > which > >> > > > > > > most > >> > > > > > > > Hindu > >> > > > > > > > > > deities are > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> visualized > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> today comes > >> > > from > >> > > > the > >> > > > > > pioneering > >> > > > > > > work of > >> > > > > > > > Raja > >> > > > > > > > > Ravi > >> > > > > > > > > > > Varma who > >> was > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> clearly > >> > > inspired by > >> > > > > western > >> > > > > > style > >> > > > > > > of > >> > > > > > > > art > >> > > > > > > > > where > >> > > > > > > > > > human > >> > > > > > > > > > > models > >> were > >> > > > > > > > > > > > used > >> to > >> > > visualize > >> > > > the > >> > > > > gods > >> > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > > goddesses. > >> > > > > > > > > So, > >> > > > > > > > > > does all > >> > > > > > > > > > > this > >> insult > >> > > > > > > > > > > > the > >> Hindus? > >> > > And > >> > > > what is > >> > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > >> "original" > >> > > > > > > > > > Hindu > >> > > > > > > > > > > way of > >> imagining > >> > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> deities any > >> > > way? > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > I > >> liked your > >> > > > quoting > >> > > > > from > >> > > > > > Kausari > >> > > > > > > who > >> > > > > > > > is > >> > > > > > > > > among > >> > > > > > > > > > many > >> > > > > > > > > > > Hindu > >> poets who > >> > > > > > > > > > > > have > >> > > > written/announced > >> > > > > their > >> > > > > > > emotive > >> > > > > > > > > affiliation > >> > > > > > > > > > with > >> > > > > > > > > > > Prophet > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Mohammad in > >> > > the > >> > > > same way > >> > > > > as > >> > > > > > say > >> > > > > > > with > >> > > > > > > > > Krishna. I > >> > > > > > > > > > doubt > >> > > > > > > > > > > if such > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> actions in the > >> > > past > >> > > > may > >> > > > > have > >> > > > > > met > >> > > > > > > with > >> > > > > > > > much > >> > > > > > > > > > resistance > >> > > > > > > > > > > (as you > >> have > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> mentioned) – > >> > > such > >> > > > > examples > >> > > > > > were > >> > > > > > > a > >> > > > > > > > norm. > >> > > > > > > > > There > >> > > > > > > > > > are > >> > > > > > > > > > > many > >> Hindu poets > >> > > > > > > > > > > > who > >> have > >> > > written > >> > > > > marsiyas > >> > > > > > full of > >> > > > > > > > pathos for > >> > > > > > > > > Imam > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hussain's > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> martyrdom, and > >> > > many > >> > > > > Muslim > >> > > > > > poets > >> > > > > > > who > >> > > > > > > > > composed > >> > > > > > > > > > adorable > >> > > > > > > > > > > songs for > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Krishna. I > >> > > > don't > >> > > > > think it > >> > > > > > was > >> > > > > > > too > >> > > > > > > > hard > >> > > > > > > > > to > >> > > > > > > > > > cross > >> > > > > > > > > > > the road > >> in those > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> days. So, why > >> > > are > >> > > > we > >> > > > > busy > >> > > > > > throwing > >> > > > > > > > stones > >> > > > > > > > > onto > >> > > > > > > > > > each > >> > > > > > > > > > > other > >> from the > >> > > > > > > > > > > > two > >> sides of a > >> > > > road? I > >> > > > > could > >> > > > > > > imagine > >> > > > > > > > that at > >> > > > > > > > > > least an > >> > > > > > > > > > > online > >> forum > >> > > > > > > > > > > > like > >> Sarai > >> > > could > >> > > > act > >> > > > > like a > >> > > > > > subway > >> > > > > > > or a > >> > > > > > > > > walk-over > >> > > > > > > > > > > bridge to > >> cross > >> > > > > > > > > > > > the > >> busy > >> > > highway. > >> > > > But > >> > > > > > currently it > >> > > > > > >> seems > >> > > > > > > > > more > >> > > > > > > > > > like a > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> road-block. > >> > > > > > > > > > > > And > >> we are all > >> > > > paying > >> > > > > the > >> > > > > > toll. > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Yousuf > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > --- > >> On Fri, > >> > > > 8/29/08, > >> > > > > > Shuddhabrata > >> > > > > > > > Sengupta > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > wrote: > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> From: > >> > > > Shuddhabrata > >> > > > > > Sengupta > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Subject: > >> > > > > [Reader-list] > >> > > > > > Ways of > >> > > > > > > Life > >> > > > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Transgressions > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> To: > >> > > "Sarai > >> > > > > > list" > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Date: > >> > > Friday, > >> > > > August > >> > > > > 29, > >> > > > > > 2008, > >> > > > > > > 1:31 > >> > > > > > > > PM > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Dear All, > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> I have > >> > > been > >> > > > > intrigued by > >> > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > exchange on > >> > > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > list >>> > > > > > > > > > > of late > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> that has > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> preferred > >> > > to > >> > > > > jettison the > >> > > > > > term > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> 'religion' > >> > > > > > > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> prefer in > >> > > its > >> > > > stead > >> > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > euphimistic > >> > > > phrase - > >> > > > > > 'ways > >> > > > > > > of > >> > > > > > > > > life'. > >> > > > > > > > > > I am > >> > > > > > > > > > > referring > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> to the > >> > > exchange > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> between > >> > > > Chanchal > >> > > > > Malviya > >> > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > > Jeebesh > >> > > > > > > > > Bagchi, > >> > > > > > > > > > > arising > >> out of > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> the > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> heated > >> > > > > correspondence on > >> > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > disruption > >> > > > > > > > > of a > >> > > > > > > > > > small > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> exhibition > >> > > > devoted > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> to > >> > > M.F.Husain. > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> i am quite > >> > > > convinced > >> > > > > that > >> > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > term > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> 'religion' > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> which > >> > > derives > >> > > > from > >> > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> latin root > >> > > of > >> > > > the > >> > > > > word > >> > > > > > religio > >> > > > > > > > (bond) > >> > > > > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > > > > religare > >> > > > > > > > > > > (the > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> verb form > >> > > of > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> 'to > >> > > > bind') > >> > > > > > remains for > >> > > > > > > me a > >> > > > > > > > > useful > >> > > > > > > > > > word to > >> > > > > > > > > > > name the > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> act of > >> > > > committing > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> oneself in > >> > > any > >> > > > form. > >> > > > > In > >> > > > > > this > >> > > > > > > sense, > >> > > > > > > > > atheists > >> > > > > > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > > > > > agnostics > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> are just > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> as > >> > > religious > >> > > > (in > >> > > > > their > >> > > > > > > commitment > >> > > > > > > > to > >> > > > > > > > > doubt) > >> > > > > > > > > > as are > >> > > > > > > > > > > those > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> blessed > >> > > with > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> faith. I > >> > > would > >> > > > > describe > >> > > > > > my > >> > > > > > > > religious > >> > > > > > > > > > commitment as > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > agnosticism - a > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> commitment > >> > > to > >> > > > doubt > >> > > > > > > everything, > >> > > > > > > > > (including > >> > > > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > > value of > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> doubt) and > >> > > a > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> certainty > >> > > that > >> > > > we > >> > > > > cannot > >> > > > > > speak > >> > > > > > > > certainly > >> > > > > > > > > of > >> > > > > > > > > > > anything > >> at > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> all, > >> > > because > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> there are > >> > > > always > >> > > > > > > counterfactuals, > >> > > > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > > > > hitherto > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> unimagined, > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> or unknown > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > possibilities, > >> > > > that > >> > > > > goad > >> > > > > > us on > >> > > > > > > to > >> > > > > > > > yet > >> > > > > > > > > newer > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> possibilities, > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> or to > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> return to > >> > > some > >> > > > very > >> > > > > old > >> > > > > > ones. > >> > > > > > > This > >> > > > > > > > is > >> > > > > > > > > just to > >> > > > > > > > > > say > >> > > > > > > > > > > that it > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> would be a > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> mistake to > >> > > > assume, > >> > > > > as is > >> > > > > > often > >> > > > > > > done > >> > > > > > > > with > >> > > > > > > > > some > >> > > > > > > > > > > arrogance > >> on > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> the part > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> of the > >> > > more > >> > > > > pronouncedly > >> > > > > > > > > 'faithful', > >> > > > > > > > > > that > >> > > > > > > > > > > atheists > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> and > >> > > agnostics > >> > > > have > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> no > >> > > > > 'spiritual' > >> > > > > > quests. > >> > > > > > > They > >> > > > > > > > do, > >> > > > > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > > > > they > >> > > > > > > > > > > dont, > >> just > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> as those > >> > > who > >> > > > are > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > ostentatiously > >> > > > > > > 'religious' > >> > > > > > > > do, > >> > > > > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > > > > dont, > >> > > > > > > > > > > or do > >> only > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> in as much > >> > > as > >> > > > it > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> allows > >> > > them to > >> > > > burn > >> > > > > a few > >> > > > > > > churches > >> > > > > > > > as > >> > > > > > > > > they go > >> > > > > > > > > > > questing. > >> If > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Hindu > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > fundamentalists > >> > > > have > >> > > > > > chosen to > >> > > > > > > > renounce > >> > > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > ties > >> > > > > > > > > > > that bind > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> (religio) > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> them to > >> > > life, > >> > > > who > >> > > > > would I > >> > > > > > be > >> > > > > > > to > >> > > > > > > > object, > >> > > > > > > > > > because, I > >> > > > > > > > > > > am not a > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Hindu. > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> But I have > >> > > no > >> > > > > quarrel > >> > > > > > with the > >> > > > > > > term > >> > > > > > > > > 'ways > >> > > > > > > > > > of > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> life'. > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> The more > >> > > words > >> > > > we > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> have, the > >> > > > better. > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> This > >> > > discussion > >> > > > > arose out > >> > > > > > of a > >> > > > > > > rage > >> > > > > > > > felt > >> > > > > > > > > by > >> > > > > > > > > > some > >> > > > > > > > > > > that a > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> group of > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> zealots > >> > > had > >> > > > broken > >> > > > > and > >> > > > > > > disrupted an > >> > > > > > > > > > exhibition > >> > > > > > > > > > > that > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> featured > >> > > some > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> images of > >> > > and > >> > > > by > >> > > > > Husain, > >> > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > counter > >> > > > > > > > > rage > >> > > > > > > > > > felt > >> > > > > > > > > > > by > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> others > >> > > that the > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> zealots > >> > > had no > >> > > > right > >> > > > > to > >> > > > > > be > >> > > > > > > > criticised > >> > > > > > > > > because > >> > > > > > > > > > they > >> > > > > > > > > > > were > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> acting to > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> protect > >> > > the > >> > > > honour > >> > > > > of the > >> > > > > > > Hindu > >> > > > > > > > deities > >> > > > > > > > > that > >> > > > > > > > > > they > >> > > > > > > > > > > felt > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Husain had > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> insulted. > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> The second > >> > > case > >> > > > is > >> > > > > as > >> > > > > > follows > >> > > > > > > - > >> > > > > > > > what > >> > > > > > > > > right > >> > > > > > > > > > has > >> > > > > > > > > > > Husain, a > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Muslim to > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> insult > >> > > Hindu > >> > > > deities > >> > > > > by > >> > > > > > > portraying > >> > > > > > > > them > >> > > > > > > > > in a > >> > > > > > > > > > > manner > >> that is > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> offensive > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> to the > >> > > > sentiments of > >> > > > > many > >> > > > > > > Hindus. > >> > > > > > > > > > (Husain's > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > motivations, or > >> > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> aesthetic > >> > > merit > >> > > > of > >> > > > > his > >> > > > > > images > >> > > > > > > are > >> > > > > > > > not > >> > > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > issue > >> > > > > > > > > > > here, > >> what > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> is at > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> issue is > >> > > the > >> > > > insult > >> > > > > seen > >> > > > > > to > >> > > > > > > have > >> > > > > > > > > occurred > >> > > > > > > > > > when a > >> > > > > > > > > > > non-Hindu > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > 'touches' > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> a sacred > >> > > Hindu > >> > > > icon > >> > > > > with > >> > > > > > his > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> 'insulting' > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > imagination. > >> > > > Those > >> > > > > so > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> enraged, > >> > > also > >> > > > throw > >> > > > > the > >> > > > > > > following > >> > > > > > > > > challenge, > >> > > > > > > > > > has > >> > > > > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> opposite > >> > > ever > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> occurred? > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> I am not > >> > > here > >> > > > to > >> > > > > make a > >> > > > > > case > >> > > > > > > for > >> > > > > > > > Husain. > >> > > > > > > > > (As > >> > > > > > > > > > I > >> > > > > >> > > > > have said > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> before I > >> > > do > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> not have a > >> > > very > >> > > > high > >> > > > > > opinion > >> > > > > > > of his > >> > > > > > > > work > >> > > > > > > > > as > >> > > > > > > > > > an > >> > > > > > > > > > > artist). > >> I > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> am here to > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> make a > >> > > case for > >> > > > what > >> > > > > is > >> > > > > > > considered > >> > > > > > > > to be > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> transgression. No > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> one can be > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> sure when > >> > > they > >> > > > have > >> > > > > > > transgressed. > >> > > > > > > > > Because > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> transgression can > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> be seen > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> to occur > >> > > even > >> > > > when > >> > > > > the > >> > > > > > motives > >> > > > > > > of > >> > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > person > >> > > > > > > > > > > concerned > >> are > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> far from > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > transgression. > >> > > > > Husain can > >> > > > > > say > >> > > > > > > in > >> > > > > > > > his > >> > > > > > > > > defence, > >> > > > > > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > > > > > indeed > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> has on > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> occasion > >> > > said > >> > > > that > >> > > > > his > >> > > > > > > paintings > >> > > > > > > > are an > >> > > > > > > > > index > >> > > > > > > > > > of > >> > > > > > > > > > > his > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > appreciation of > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Indic > >> > > culture > >> > > > and > >> > > > > its > >> > > > > > > diversity of > >> > > > > > > > > > expressions, > >> of > >> > > > > > > > > > > his > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> closeness > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> (since > >> > > early > >> > > > > childhood) > >> > > > > > to > >> > > > > > > forms of > >> > > > > > > > > iconic > >> > > > > > > > > > imagery > >> > > > > > > > > > > in > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> popular > >> > > > Hinduism. > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Here his > >> > > intent > >> > > > is > >> > > > > > clearly not > >> > > > > > > to > >> > > > > > > > > insult, on > >> > > > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > > contrary, > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> it is to > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> declare > >> > > his > >> > > > > appreciation > >> > > > > > for > >> > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > beauty > >> > > > > > > > > of > >> > > > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> iconography > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> of popular > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Hinduism, > >> > > a > >> > > > charge > >> > > > > for > >> > > > > > which > >> > > > > > > he > >> > > > > > > > would be > >> > > > > > > > > > equally > >> > > > > > > > > > > hated by > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> both Hindu > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> as well as > >> > > > Muslim > >> > > > > > > fundamentalists. > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> It has not > >> > > been > >> > > > > noticed > >> > > > > > that > >> > > > > > > no > >> > > > > > > > Muslim > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> fundamentalist or > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> even > >> > > Muslim > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> religious > >> > > > figure has > >> > > > > come > >> > > > > > out > >> > > > > > > in > >> > > > > > > > defence > >> > > > > > > > > of > >> > > > > > > > > > > Husain. > >> They > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> are in > >> > > fact > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> in tacit > >> > > > agreement > >> > > > > with > >> > > > > > their > >> > > > > > > Hindu > >> > > > > > > > > peers. A > >> > > > > > > > > > > Muslim > >> making > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> images, > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> and that > >> > > too of > >> > > > > Hindu > >> > > > > > > goddesses, > >> > > > > > > > because > >> > > > > > > > > he > >> > > > > > > > > > is > >> > > > > > > > > > > drawn to > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> them, can > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> only be > >> > > seen as > >> > > > > blasphemy > >> > > > > > in > >> > > > > > > their > >> > > > > > > > eyes. > >> > > > > > > > > On > >> > > > > > > > > > this, > >> > > > > > > > > > > like on > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> so many > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> other > >> > > issues, > >> > > > Hindu > >> > > > > and > >> > > > > > Muslim > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> fundamentalists are > >> > > > > > > > > > > in total > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> agreement. > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Let me > >> > > come now > >> > > > to > >> > > > > an > >> > > > > > > interesting > >> > > > > > > > > > counterfactual > >> > > > > > > > > > > argument. > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> I refer to > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> the life > >> > > an > >> > > > work of > >> > > > > a > >> > > > > > little > >> > > > > > > known > >> > > > > > > > late > >> > > > > > > > > > nineteenth > >> > > > > > > > > > > century > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> and early > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> twentieth > >> > > > century > >> > > > > Urdu > >> > > > > > poet of > >> > > > > > > > Delhi > >> > > > > > > > > called > >> > > > > > > > > > Dillu > >> > > > > > > > > > > Ram > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Kausari. > >> > > Now as > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> his name > >> > > > suggests, > >> > > > > Dillu > >> > > > > > Ram > >> > > > > > > was a > >> > > > > > > > > Hindu. The > >> > > > > > > > > > > trouble > >> is, > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> throughout > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> his life > >> > > he > >> > > > composed > >> > > > > > > deliriously > >> > > > > > > > > passionate > >> > > > > > > > > > > elegies > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > (na'at) to > >> > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Prophet > >> > > > Muhammad. > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> One of his > >> > > > quatrains > >> > > > > went > >> > > > > > as > >> > > > > > > > follows > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Kuch > >> > > 'ishq e > >> > > > > Muhammad > >> > > > > > mein > >> > > > > > > nahin > >> > > > > > > > shart > >> > > > > > > > > e > >> > > > > > > > > > > Musulman! > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Hai > >> > > Kausari > >> > > > Hindu > >> > > > > bhii > >> > > > > > > talabgaar e > >> > > > > > > > > Muhammad! > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Allah re! > >> > > kyaa > >> > > > > raunaq e > >> > > > > > bazaar > >> > > > > > > e > >> > > > > > > > > Muhammad > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Ke > >> > > Ma'bood e > >> > > > Jahan > >> > > > > bhi > >> > > > > > hai > >> > > > > > > > kharidaar e > >> > > > > > >> > > Muhammad! > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Being a > >> > > Muslim > >> > > > is > >> > > > > not a > >> > > > > > > condition > >> > > > > > > > for > >> > > > > > > > > loving > >> > > > > > > > > > > Muhammad! > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Kausari, > >> > > the > >> > > > Hindu, > >> > > > > is > >> > > > > > also a > >> > > > > > > > seeker of > >> > > > > > > > > > Muhammad! > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> By Allah! > >> > > How > >> > > > > delightful > >> > > > > > is > >> > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > bazaar > >> > > > >> > > > of > >> > > > > > > > > > Muhammad > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> For the > >> > > Lord of > >> > > > the > >> > > > > > Worlds is > >> > > > > > > also > >> > > > > > > > a > >> > > > > > > > > buyer of > >> > > > > > > > > > > Muhammad! > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> This kind > >> > > of > >> > > > > sentiment > >> > > > > > shocked > >> > > > > > > both > >> > > > > > > > > Hindus > >> > > > > > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > > > > > Muslims. > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Hindus, > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> because > >> > > how > >> > > > could a > >> > > > > Hindu > >> > > > > > sing > >> > > > > > > what > >> > > > > > > > > amounted > >> > > > > > > > > > to > >> > > > > > > > > > > love > >> songs > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> to a > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Muslim > >> > > prophet, > >> > > > and > >> > > > > > Muslims, > >> > > > > > > for > >> > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > same > >> > > > > > > > > > reason. > >> > > > > > > > > > > Both felt > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> slighted > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> and > >> > > insulted by > >> > > > the > >> > > > > > > transgressive > >> > > > > > > > way in > >> > > > > > > > > > which the > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > imagination of > >> > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> poet had > >> > > > > > 'touched' the > >> > > > > > > body > >> > > > > > > > of > >> > > > > > > > > what > >> > > > > > > > > > was > >> > > > > > > > > > > sacred > >> for > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> one, and > >> > > not, > >> > > > for > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> the other. > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Another > >> > > poem, > >> > > > which > >> > > > > > proved to > >> > > > > > > be > >> > > > > > > > even > >> > > > > > > > > more > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> controversial, > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> went like > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> this - > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > Rahmatulilalamin kay > >> > > > > > Hashar > >> > > > > > > mein > >> > > > > > > > > maana' > >> > > > > > > > > > khulay > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Khalq > >> > > saari > >> > > > Shaafa e > >> > > > > Roz > >> > > > > > e > >> > > > > > > Jaza kay > >> > > > > > > > > saath hai > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Laykay > >> > > Dillu > >> > > > Raam ko > >> > > > > > jannat > >> > > > > > > mein > >> > > > > > > > jab > >> > > > > > > > > Hazrat > >> > > > > > > > > > gaye > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Ma'loom > >> > > huwa > >> > > > kay > >> > > > > Hindu > >> > > > > > bhi > >> > > > > > > > Mahboob e > >> > > > > > > > > Khuda > >> > > > > > > > > > kay > >> > > > > > > > > > > saath > >> hai! > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> The > >> > > meaning of > >> > > > > "Mercy > >> > > > > > unto > >> > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > Worlds" > >> > > > > > > > > > became > >> > > > > > > > > > > apparent > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> on > >> > > Judgement > >> > > > Day: > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> The whole > >> > > > creation > >> > > > > is > >> > > > > > with the > >> > > > > > > > > Intercessor of > >> > > >> > > > > > The > >> > > > > > > > > > > Day of > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Acquittal > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> When the > >> > > > Prophet > >> > > > > took > >> > > > > > Dillu > >> > > > > > > Ram > >> > > > > > > > with him > >> > > > > > > > > into > >> > > > > > > > > > > Paradise > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> It was > >> > > known > >> > > > that > >> > > > > this > >> > > > > > Hindu > >> > > > > > > too is > >> > > > > > > > with > >> > > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > > Beloved > >> of > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> God! > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> This poem, > >> > > > > especially > >> > > > > > > scandalized > >> > > > > > > > Muslim > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> orthodoxy, because > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> it dared > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> to suggest > >> > > that > >> > > > the > >> > > > > > prophet > >> > > > > > > himself > >> > > > > > > > > would > >> > > > > > > > > > > intercede > >> on > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> behalf of > >> > > an > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> unbeliever > >> > > on > >> > > > the > >> > > > > day of > >> > > > > > > judgement. > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> It is > >> > > > interesting to > >> > > > > note > >> > > > > > that > >> > > > > > > > Dillu Ram > >> > > > > > > > > > never > >> > > > > > > > > > > became a > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Muslim, at > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> least not > >> > > in > >> > > > his > >> > > > > > lifetime. An > >> > > > > > > > article in > >> > > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> interesting > >> > > >> > > > > > > >> > >> web portal > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Chowk > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > http://www.chowk.com/articles/12692 by > >> > > > > > > > > > one > >> > > > > > > > > > > Asif > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Naqshbandi > >> > > says > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> "It > >> > > is > >> > > > also > >> > > > > said > >> > > > > > that > >> > > > > > > Dillu > >> > > > > > > > Ram, > >> > > > > > > > > > delirious > >> > > > > > > > > > > with his > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> love, > >> > > would > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> sometimes > >> > > stand > >> > > > in > >> > > > > the > >> > > > > > middle > >> > > > > > > of > >> > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > bazaar > >> > > > > > > > > > in > >> > > > > > > > > > > Delhi, > >> put > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> chains > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> around his > >> > > neck > >> > > > and > >> > > > > feet > >> > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > shout > >> > > > > > > > at > >> > > > > > > > > the top > >> > > > > > > > > > of > >> > > > > > > > > > > his voice > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> to all > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > passers-by, > >> > > > > "Muhammad! > >> > > > > > > Muhammad! > >> > > > > > > > > Muhammad! > >> > > > > > > > > > Yes! > >> > > > > > > > > > > Muhammad > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> is the > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Beloved of > >> > > God! > >> > > > > Muhammad > >> > > > > > is > >> > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > first > >> > > > > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > > > > only > >> > > > > > > > > > > Beloved > >> of > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> God! If > >> > > God > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> loves you, > >> > > He > >> > > > loves > >> > > > > you > >> > > > > > > because of > >> > > > > > > > His > >> > > > > > > > > > Beloved!" > >> > > > > > > > > > > Some > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> people > >> > > even > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> stoned him > >> > > and > >> > > > he > >> > > > > would > >> > > > > > often > >> > > > > > > come > >> > > > > > > > home > >> > > > > > > > > > covered in > >> > > > > > > > > > > blood > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> but he was > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> totally > >> > > lost in > >> > > > his > >> > > > > love > >> > > > > > of > >> > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > Prophet > >> > > > > > > > > > (peace and > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> blessings > >> > > be > >> > > > upon > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > him!)" > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> There is > >> > > an > >> > > > > apocryphal > >> > > > > > story > >> > > > > > > of how > >> > > > > > > > on > >> > > > > > > > > his > >> > > > > > > > > > > deathbed > >> Dillu > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Ram > >> > > Kausari > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> had a > >> > > vision of > >> > > > the > >> > > > > > Prophet > >> > > > > > > > himself, who > >> > > > > > > > > came > >> > > > > > > > > > to > >> > > > > > > > > > > him, and > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> that he > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> read the > >> > > Kalima > >> > > > with > >> > > > > him. > >> > > > > > But > >> > > > > > > as > >> > > > > > > > this > >> > > > > > > > > vision > >> > > > > > > > > > is > >> > > > > > > > > > > reported > >> to > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> have > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> appeared > >> > > only > >> > > > to > >> > > > > him, as > >> > > > > > he > >> > > > > > > lay > >> > > > > > > > dying, > >> > > > > > > > > and as > >> > > > > > > > > > he > >> > > > > > > > > > > is no > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> longer > >> > > with us > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> to either > >> > > > confirm or > >> > > > > deny > >> > > > > > this > >> > > > > > > > deathbed > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> conversion, we can > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> only > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> surmise > >> > > that it > >> > > > was > >> > > > > a > >> > > > > > > generous, but > >> > > > > > > > > somewhat > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> disingenuous > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> method of > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> having > >> > > Dillu > >> > > > > Ram's > >> > > > > > > somewhat > >> > > > > > > > > unorthodox > >> > > > > > > > > > Muslim > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> apologists > >> > > > claim him > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> for > >> > > themselves. > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> As far as > >> > > we > >> > > > are > >> > > > > > concerned, > >> > > > > > > Dillu > >> > > > > > > > Ram > >> > > > > > > > > > Kausari, > >> > > > > > > > > > > caused > >> grave > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> offence, > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> by his > >> > > love for > >> > > > the > >> > > > > > Prophet, > >> > > > > > > both > >> > > > > > > > to > >> > > > > > > > > Hindu as > >> > > > > > > > > > well > >> > > > > > > > > > > as to > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Muslim > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> zealots, > >> > > as > >> > > > long as > >> > > > > he > >> > > > > > lived. > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> If, the > >> > > things > >> > > > we > >> > > > > call > >> > > > > > > religions > >> > > > > > > > are > >> > > > > > > > > > 'ways of > >> > > > > > > > > > > life' > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> then we > >> > > can > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> always > >> > > > determine for > >> > > > > > ourselves > >> > > > > > > > whether > >> > > > > > > > > we > >> > > > > > > > > > want to > >> > > > > > > > > > > walk on a > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> one way > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> street > >> > > that > >> > > > runs > >> > > > > into a > >> > > > > > dead > >> > > > > > > end, > >> > > > > > > > or to > >> > > > > > > > > cross > >> > > > > > > > > > many > >> > > > > > > > > > > paths, > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> walking > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> down one > >> > > way, > >> > > > for > >> > > > > one > >> > > > > > purpose, > >> > > > > > > down > >> > > > > > > > > another > >> > > > > > > > > > way > >> > > > > > > > > > > for > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> another, > >> > > and > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> sometimes > >> > > just > >> > > > > standing > >> > > > > > in > >> > > > > > > between > >> > > > > > > > > paths, > >> > > > > > > > > > figuring > >> > > > > > > > > > > out our > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> journey, > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> as we go > >> > > about > >> > > > our > >> > > > > lives. > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> I find > >> > > cases > >> > > > like > >> > > > > Husain > >> > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > Dillu > >> > > > > > > > Ram > >> > > > > > > > > > Kausari > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> interesting > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> not > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> becauseof > >> > > what > >> > > > they > >> > > > > > paint of > >> > > > > > > what > >> > > > > > > > they > >> > > > > > > > > say, > >> > > > > > > > > > but > >> > > > > > > > > > > because > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> they seem > >> > > to > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> cause such > >> > > > prolonged > >> > > > > > traffic > >> > > > > > > jams > >> > > > > > > > on the > >> > > > > > > > > > 'ways > >> > > > > > > > > > > of > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> life'. > >> > > And > >> > > > all > >> > > > > they > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> were doing > >> > > was > >> > > > > crossing > >> > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > road. > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> thanks and > >> > > > regards, > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Shuddha > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> ----- > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > Shuddhabrata > >> > > > > Sengupta > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> _________________________________________ > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > reader-list: an > >> > > > open > >> > > > > > > discussion > >> > > > > > > > list on > >> > > > > > > > > media > >> > > > > > > > > > and > >> > > > > > > > > > > the city. > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> Critiques > >> > > & > >> > > > > > Collaborations > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> To > >> > > subscribe: > >> > > > send > >> > > > > an > >> > > > > > email to > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net > >> > > > > > > with > >> > > > > > > > > subscribe > >> > > > > > > > > > in > >> > > > > > > > > > > the > >> subject > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> header. > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> To > >> > > unsubscribe: > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> List > >> > > archive: > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > _________________________________________ > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> reader-list: > >> > > an > >> > > > open > >> > > > > > discussion > >> > > > > > > list on > >> > > > > > > > > media and > >> > > > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > > city. > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Critiques > >> > > & > >> > > > > > Collaborations > >> > > > > > > > > > > > To > >> subscribe: > >> > > send > >> > > > an > >> > > > > email > >> > > > > > to > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net > >> > > > > with > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> subscribe in > >> > > the > >> > > > subject > >> > > > > > header. > >> > > > > > > > > > > > To > >> > > unsubscribe: > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > > > > > > > > > > > List > >> archive: > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Shuddhabrata > >> > > Sengupta > >> > > > > > > > > > > The Sarai > >> Programme > >> > > at > >> > > > CSDS > >> > > > > > > > > > > Raqs > >> Media > >> > > Collective > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> shuddha at sarai.net > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> www.sarai.net > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > _________________________________________ > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> reader-list: an > >> > > open > >> > > > > discussion > >> > > > > > list on > >> > > > > > > > media and > >> > > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > city. > >> > > > > > > > > > > Critiques > >> & > >> > > > > Collaborations > >> > > > > > > > > > > To > >> subscribe: send > >> > > an > >> > > > email > >> > > > > to > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net > >> > > > > with > >> > > > > > > subscribe > >> > > > > > > > in > >> > > > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > > > > subject > >> > > > > > > > > > > header. > >> > > > > > > > > > > To > >> unsubscribe: > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > > > > > > > > > > List > >> archive: > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > >> city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to > >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > >> header. > >> > To unsubscribe: > >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to > >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > >> header. > >> To unsubscribe: > >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From tarajnu at hotmail.com Sun Sep 7 06:18:08 2008 From: tarajnu at hotmail.com (Tara Prakash) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 20:48:08 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmir: Is secession the answer? (Hindu) Message-ID: Kashmir: is secession the answer? Kanti Bajpai It would be foolish to argue that the secession of a people is ruled out forever.It would be equally foolish to choose secession without a careful thought of the larger ramifications. The protests and violence in Jammu and Kashmir have once again raised the issue of the State’s secession from India. While the Amarnath shrine dispute is clearly the trigger for the secessionist calls in the Valley, the agitation there seems to be part of a deeper malaise. Recognising this, a body of opinion outside Kashmir argues that it is probably time to let the State go. A sense of fatigue over Kashmir and a feeling of discomfort over compelling people to stay within the Indian Union when they want to leave are evident in these arguments. This is understandable: it has been 20 long years of conflict and pain; and it is discomfiting to think that we are holding a people within a community when they are unhappy. However, secession is never simply a choice internal to the community seeking it because the consequences may well be felt in the larger community from which it is separating and in the international community which it seeks to join. This does not mean that secession is ruled out forever. There are times when it may well be necessary. Under what circumstances can (or should) a people secede? Political theorists argue that in the face of genocidal violence, a people has a right to secede. They also suggest that massive discrimination and denial of human rights are grounds for secession. But is Kashmir an instance of genocide, discrimination, and egregious human rights abuses? Have Indian actions in Kashmir amounted to genocidal violence? There has certainly been violence in the Valley, by both the militants and the agencies of the Indian state. While it is true that there has been provocation from the militants and, on occasion, from protesters, there is no avoiding the conclusion that innocents have been illegally detained, there have been rape and pillage, there has been torture, there are people missing, and there are those who have died in faked encounters. Does this amount, though, to genocide? The roll-call of abuses is a melancholic one, but it is not genocide — either in intent or in practice. The Indian government has not sought the extermination of the Kashmiri people whatever its motives and actions over the past 20 years. Can the government be accused of massively discriminating against them? It would be hard to show that this is the case. If anything, it is the opposite. Article 370 of the Constitution gives the State special rights and privileges. Kashmir has its own Constitution, the only State to have one. No Central law can apply there without the assent of the State legislature. Indians from other States cannot own property in Kashmir (there are other States in the Union where this is true). The Union government’s responsibilities are restricted to foreign policy, defence, and communications. It is true that New Delhi has fiddled with Article 370 or at least with the spirit of it, but it would be an exaggeration to say this amounts to a case for secession. Economically better placed Economically, Kashmir is better placed than most other States. It has amongst the lowest levels of poverty. It gets more per capita transfers from the Central government than virtually any other State. One might argue that it could have done better economically; but so could have many other States. The development problems of Kashmir — poverty, lack of education, bad infrastructure, not enough industrialisation and private investment, poor governance, and rampant corruption — are hardly unique to the State. These cannot be attributed to a policy of government vindictiveness. Human rights violations might be a ground for secession even if discrimination is not. Indian government agencies have a lot to answer for, as noted above. But are their actions a case for secession though? If the government made no attempt to improve its record and if it is true that the Indian political system is without resources and methods to improve its approach to Kashmir, then the case for secession would be strengthened. Once again, it would be hard to show that the Indian government has been unwilling to rein in its agencies and make restitution for earlier lapses and mistakes. It has prosecuted some members of the police and armed forces who committed human rights excesses. It has got rid of two draconian laws, TADA and POTA, which gave the authorities the power to detain and hold citizens preventively (although there are special powers in place that have not been dismantled). New Delhi has also tried to educate the army and para-military forces on human rights conduct. Crucially, despite its earlier electoral record of manipulation, the Indian government has held free and fair elections in the State, and the media continue to report on Kashmir, including the excesses of the government. This is not a brilliant record, but it does suggest that the system can be made more accountable. Even if the government’s record does not justify the case for secession, we might still support the separation if it is shown that those who claim to lead or might come to lead the independent state are representative and responsible agents who would make life better for Kashmiris. The All Parties Hurriyat Conference (APHC), which claims to represent Kashmiri opinion and which might lead an independent Kashmir, has never been tested electorally, principally because it has chosen not to contest. While it is a coalition of parties, there are parties which are members of the APHC and which do not necessarily support secession. The militants, who are fighting for secession, are even more unknown; evidently, they are more feared than loved. Finally, whatever support the APHC and the militants enjoy in the Valley, their base in Jammu and Ladakh is much smaller. How representative? How confidently can we say the APHC and the militants would be better than the present dispensation in giving Kashmir democracy and good governance? Would there be a constitutional government, elections, an independent judiciary, an active media, and public debate? Would religious and ethnic minorities be protected? The APHC has been remarkably coy about its political values and preferences, so it is hard to tell how respectful it is of democracy. It is ridden with internal conflicts and has displayed little coherence. Perhaps, as a result, it has failed to articulate a cogent view of politics in an independent Kashmir. As for the militants, they have attacked not only the agencies of the Indian government but also unarmed civilians, Muslim and Hindu, with great regularity. Violence against unarmed people is terrorism pure and simple and is surely not encouraging in terms of the political values of these groups. The rising influence of fundamentalist Islam in the Valley also does not augur well for a democratic, pluralist, and open Kashmir. Before we countenance secession, let us also ask whether or not the geopolitical setting of an independent state would be conducive to independence. Kashmir would be surrounded by three regional powers, two of which are mega states, India and China, and the third is Pakistan, the eighth biggest country in the world in population terms. All three will have claims to Kashmiri territory and allegiance, and will exert enormous pressures on the state in their own strategic interests. That Kashmir is landlocked will not help. Whatever the rights of landlocked states and upper riparians under the international law, Kashmir will be dependent on the goodwill of India and Pakistan, if not China. Secession is not simply a choice that a community makes of its own free will. Since the effects of secession may be felt far and wide, the international community has a right to bear on the issue. It has a right to ask if the new government will be stable and well organised and capable of preserving its independence. It must also ask whether the effects of secessionism are, on the whole, positive for those near and far. Secession from India could well have calamitous effects within India and Pakistan and on their mutual relations: the fragility of these states and their relationship makes it almost certain that the independence of Kashmir will lead to massive political convulsions. The effects of Kashmiri secession may not be restricted to South Asia. It may flame Islamic militants all over the world. And it could energise separatists well beyond the region. Kashmiris in the Valley and Indians outside the Valley must consider these issues before accepting the case for secession. It would be foolish to argue that the secession of a people is ruled out forever. It would be equally foolish to choose secession without a careful thought of the larger ramifications. (The author writes on foreign policy and security issues.) From shuddha at sarai.net Sun Sep 7 18:13:09 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 18:13:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord (Nobody) In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70809070134k4be5778eg79f9a5c3b518d2b5@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70809061229n44e9f372i200d4250bf79a3ca@mail.gmail.com> <362469.62587.qm@web54202.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <6b79f1a70809070134k4be5778eg79f9a5c3b518d2b5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7D781005-3BAD-472B-B7D1-74D7D567E1CF@sarai.net> > Dear All, I welcome Pawan Durani's decision to do a detailed reading of A.G.Noorani's critique (which I had posted earlier) of the terms of the so-called 'Amarnath Accord' on this list and on his blog. I am ignoring for the moment the fact that this reading comes predictably prefaced and padded by invective, which in no way substantiates or contributes to Durani's argument. In the interests of the standards of a healthy debate, I will stick to engaging with arguments contained in Durani's counter-critique, not to the ad- hominem supplements addressed at Noorani, or the people he calls 'pseudo-secularists and jhola chaaps'. For conveniences sake, the posting is divided into five sections, reflecting what I believe are the most important points made by Pawan Durani, which are as follows - 1. The Question of Whether or Not an Agreement Made in Consultation solely with Jammu Based Bodies can be considered Representative 2. Do all Kashmiri Pandits speak in one voice? Have they been ignored by Noorani? 3. High Court Decisions and Clearances by the Forest Department 4. The Difference between the meanings of the words 'Only' and 'Exclusively' 5. The matter of Fundamental Rights to Movement, and Article 370 I apologize in advance for the length of this posting, as it requires me to do some amount of detailed work on Durani's objections to Noorani's reading of the so-called Amarnath accord. So, those who are not interested in following the intricacies of the Amarnath debate, would be best advised to skip it in entirety. regards Shuddha --------------------------------------------------- 1. The Question of Whether or Not an Agreement Made in Consultation solely with Jammu Based Bodies can be considered Representative Durani says - "What Noorani has forgotten that Jammu & Kashmir is a one complete state and anyone in Jammu & Ladakh has an equal right over every single inch of land in the whole state. Also Noorani has completely ignored that Kashmiri Hindus who have been in the forefront of the agitation led by Sangarsh Samiti also represent Kashmir in particular. The authors seems to have probably bowed to the wishes of Kashmiri terrorists by erasing the thought of Kashmiri Hindus from even the memory." There are several holes in the above statement. Let's go through each one of them. The Shree Amarnath Yatra Sangharsh Samiti represents the many organizations (almost all Jammu based) that have endorsed its platform. It is an organization formed to give voice to a particular set of demands, just as the Kashmir valley based Action Committe Against Land Transfer is an organization set up to give voice to another set of demands. None of these organizations can be said to have a 'representative' character that embraces the entirety of the present territory of the Indian held Jammu & Kashmir state. While one expresses a particular opinion that is dominant in Jammu, the other expresses a particular opinion that is popular in the Kashmir valley. For reasons of convenience and brevity, I will call them (unsatisfactorily) the Jammu Lobby and the Kashmir Lobby. The crucial issue is - the Jammu lobby wants something done in the hinterland of Kashmir, to which the Kashmir lobby objects. What principles can we use to determine the ethical validities of these claims? Lets take a hypothetical case in order to try and get to a reasonable answer. Assume that the Kashmir lobby wanted to ensure that the Mata Vaishno Devi compex (in Jammu) be dismantled, (let us say out of concern for the environmental damage that it thought it caused to the fragile ecology of the entire state) and took to the streets with a militant agitation to demand that this be done, which resulted in the Government of India (through the offices of the Governor of the state) negotiating a settlement with the Kashmir lobby that more or less acceded to their demands, then would we consider that a decision that was 'representative' of the popular will of the entire territory? I doubt that it would. The so called 'Amarnath Accord' cannot be considered 'representative' for the same reason. The Amarnath Land Transfer issue has ramifications that concern, first and foremost, the people who live in the vicinity of the land that is claimed by the SASB, and the requirements of the fragile ecology of the terrain, and, secondly, the pilgrims who visit the site. Any solution to the issue in order to be seen as fair, or 'representative', must take all these interests into account. Traditionally, the Baltal segment, over which the dispute has risen, does not lie on the scripturally sanctioned route. It entered the horizon of consideration, only when the Nitish Sengupta Committee mentioned it as a possible alternative route in order to relieve the stress on the traditional route following the avalanche of 1996. Here too, however, the Sengupta committee report strongly recommended (for reasons of health, safety and ecology) a restriction on the number of pilgrims to be allowed access to Amarnath. The extent of facilities envisaged by the SASB as a basis of staking its claim to the land in Baltal (regardless of what Nitish Sengupta himself may now be saying) nowhere approximates the limited number of pilgrims that the Sengupta Committee recommended. In fact, if we look at the details of its submissions before the Jammu and Kashmir high court on the issue we find that it made clear its plans - " - to raise resources to the tune of Rs 82 crore over the next five years for providing various facilities, including LoC type fencing [isolating the whole yatra area from rest of Kashmir], cable car from Sangam to cave, electrification around the cave areas, including construction of micro-hydel projects, accommodation, toilets/bathrooms, bunk beds, sanitation and road construction from Baltal to Sangam." [excerpted from the SASB submission before the J&K High Court, quoting minutes of its 8th Board Meeting] I am not for the moment going in detail into a consideration of the implications of some of the SASB's more absurd 'visions' which include (among other things) the biometric scanning of pilgrims to ensure that 'aliens' do not gain access to the route or the shrine, or getting the Defence Research and Development Organization to develope technological solutions to ensure that the Ice Lingam retains its tumescence despite the sharp rise in temperature that is occurring in the vicinity of Amarnath due to the pressure of alarmingly large number of pilgrims and helicopter sorties. But even if we do take into account the most significant points in the SASB's plan that I have pointed out above, it is clearly evident, that the the infrastructure mapped out in the 'Baltal' plan as outlined in the SASB's submission envisages the accommodation of a number far higher than the maximum number of 700 additional yatris recommended by the Nitish Sengupta committee. The argument is precisely about the fact as to whether or not - 'the transfer of land' - addresses the concerns of the traditional inhabitants of the land, the ecosystem of the terrain, and the pilgrims who pass through it. Is the creation of a fenced in 'territory within a territory' which is clearly designed to accommodate far more numbers than the stipulated 700 be considered the kind of burden that this terrain can accommodate? Can it considered to be 'representative' of the interests of the terrain, its inhabitants, even of pilgrims? . Even if we take Durani's argument that the that 'Jammu & Kashmir is a one complete state and anyone in Jammu & Ladakh has an equal right over every single inch of land in the whole state.' on face value, we still have to ask, how is this 'right' to be ascertained? In any representative form of government, this 'right' can be ascertained, only by the elected representatives of the people. Even if we theoretically assume that the legislature of the State of Jammu & Kashmir is a body made up of the freely elected representatives of the people of the state (an assertion with which I do not agree, but am willing to consdier, for the state of the argument) then too, neither the Shree Amarnath Ji Shrine Board, nor the Shree Amarnath Yatra Sangharsh Samiti, nor the office of the Governor is a body that can be said to be 'representative' in a legal sense, of anybody, let alone the 'people of Jammu and Ladakh'. Since the SASB is an act created by the decision of the state legislature, only the state legislature has the 'representative authority' to decide whether or not a transaction undertaken by the SASB is a reflection of the constitutionally verifiable will, or interests, of the people who constitute the electorate of the state of Jammu and Kashmir. 2. Do all Kashmiri Pandits speak in one voice? Have they been ignored by Noorani? Most importantly, Durani claims that "Noorani has completely ignored that Kashmiri Hindus who have been in the forefront of the agitation led by Sangarsh Samiti also represent Kashmir in particular." This is an interesting, but particularly pernicious assertion, and bears a detailed consideration. I am not for a moment denying the fact that some organizations that claim to speak on behalf of Kashmiri Pandits have been actively involved in the agitation led by the Sangharsh Samiti against the revocation of the land transfer. But does this fact automatically translate into veracity of their claim to 'represent Kashmir' or even 'representing all Kashmiri Pandits'. Let me quote below a report that appeared in the Rising Kashmir newspaper, as recently as a month ago. It bears reading, in its entirety. ---------------- "Handover control of Hindu properties to KPs Abid Bashir, Rising Kashmir Newspaper, August 8, 2008 Srinagar, Aug 06: Kashmiri Pandit Sangarsh Samiti (KPSS), an organisation of non-migrant Pandits on Monday said that the Amarnath Sangarsh Samiti (ASS) was in wrong hands and appealed Governor N N Vohra to hand over the control of all religious properties of Kashmiri Pandits (KPs) especially the Amarnath cave to KPs to end the present crisis. The ASS is being used as a tool by some elements in Jammu to fulfill their own interests. It is in the wrong hands. They should rethink what they are doing, KPSS President Sanjay Tickoo told Rising Kashmir. He appealed Governor N N Vohra to hand over all religious places of the Pandit community to the KPs who preferred to stay put in Kashmir when armed rebellion erupted in 1990. The Governor should hand over the charge of all religious places belonging to the Pandit community right from Karna to Srinagar to the KPs. The Amarnath cave and the charge of the yatra should also be given to us. We stayed back in hey days of armed resistance,” Tickoo said.The number of KPs residing in Kashmir is enough to take the charge of all our religious places including that of organising the Amarnath yatra. The KPSS blamed all former MLAs of National Conference (NC), Congress and Peoples Democratic Party for the deteriorating situation in Jammu and the recent land transfer controversy. We had requested the former governments to pass the temple and shrine bill in the assembly but due to their vested interests the bill was ignored. Resultantly, the situation took a violent turn in the form of land controversy and now Jammu crisis.Tickoo said. Had the bill been passed, the control of all religious places including Amarnath cave would have been in the hands of KPs and there would have been no controversy at all, he said. The KPSS president said that the Jammu crisis was a ploy of some vested interests aimed to divide the State into two provinces; Kashmir and Jammu. There are some vested interested politicians who are making the lives of the people of State miserable for their dirty political games, he said. Tickoo questioned the Governor saying if curfew was imposed in Jammu how come it was possible that the people were still coming out on the roads to disrupt the calm. Despite Army's help, situation in Jammu doesn't seem to be improving. We appeal our Pandit and Muslim brethren in Jammu to unite to defeat the unscrupulous elements who are triggering communal frenzy in Jammu,he said." -------- No doubt, Pawan Durani will jump to the gun and say that Sanjay Tickoo, and the Kashmiri Pandit Sangharsh Samiti, the organization that has continued to represent the interests of those Pandits who refused to leave the Kashmir valley, and who continued to share in the fortunes and misfortunes of their fellow Kashmiris (and about whom not much gets said by their 'migrant leadership' brethren) - are paid agents of anti-national forces. But saying that amounts exactly to the same as saying that those Kashmiri Pandit 'leaders' and their followers who participated so militantly in the Amarnath Sangharsh Samiti agitation, or those who are part of the Panun Kashmir hydra are paid agents of the Sangh Parivar (the Hindu Right) or the Intelligence Bureau. Neither assertion says anything about whether or not 'all' Kashmiri Pandits, let alone, 'Kashmir' itself is beholden to one or the other point of view. If anything, we would have to admit that there is a natural justice in the demand of the Kashmiri Pandit Sangharsh Samiti voiced by Sanjay Tickoo, that the religious institutions of Kashmiri Pandits and sites sacred to them (such as the Amarnath Shrine) in the Kashmir valley be looked after and maintained by those Kashmiri Pandits who have stayed on in the valley, because, they more than anyone else have a stake in their maintenance and upkeep. Were this to be done, as Tickoo points out, there would be no need for the State to interfere in the management of the religious affairs of the community through instruments such as the presently constituted SASB. In fact, as I have always maintained, the State has no business in being present in matters to do with the administration of religious endowments of any faith, and this principle should apply as much to Muslim Auqaf as it does to Hindu temple trusts, Sikh Gurdwaras and Christian churches. ------- 3. High Court Decisions and Clearances by the Forest Department Durani goes on to say - "What Noorani does not either know or does not want to be known is that there is a order of High Court dated 15.04.2005 [ OWP No 732/2004 Rampal Bathonia Vs State ] in which the Hon Court Ordered " Since the Board intends to upgrade the infrastructure across the tracks and at different places, the state shall,immediately permit the use of Forest Land by the board,if not already allowed,to enable it to carry out the development activities for the benefit of the Yatris. I am informed that the Forest Department has already granted permisssion to the board for the purpose." It has been pointed out before, that there has been strong reason to see that the clearances obtained from the Forest Department (including those that pertain to environmental questions) are clear instances of conflict of interest at work. The administrative head of the Forest Department, is, as is now public knowledge, none other than the wife of the erstwhile executive officer of the Shrine Board (under whose tenure the matter of the 'land transfer' was inititally passed, in undue haste) Morover, the High Court Judge who gave these decisions happened to have been formerely an advocate of the Shrine Board itself. Clearly, these decisions cannot be said to be free of prejudicial motivation, and invite substantial reasons for scrutiny in terms of whether or not they were made under the influence of personal gain or favour. Normally, when land is acquired, say for industrial purposes, or for any other public purpose by the Government of India, especially when it is land considered to be part of special environmentally vulnerable zone, a detailed environmental audit is done by boards that contain independent experts in the field. Forest departments, well known for their collusion with timber lobbies, poachers and other interested parties, are expressly not authorised to conduct 'environmental audits'. Clearly, no such measures were taken, or are even now being contemplated in this case. 4. The Difference between the meanings of the words 'Only' and 'Exclusively' Durani further says, - "The state Govt went in to appeal to the Division Bench of High Court. The division bench vide its interim directions on 17.5.2005 ordered as follows ” The land to be allotted by the board would be only (Emphasis, Durani) for the purpose of the user and would remain limited for the duration of Yatra." It is on the basis of the wording of this statement that Durani refutes Noorani's claim - "Even the controversial order nowhere used the word “exclusive”..." Now, there is a world of difference between the words 'only' and 'exclusive' In the text of the High Court order that Durani quotes, the word - 'only' can 'only' mean one thing, that the land would 'only' be used for the purpose of the user - facilitating pilgrimage - and would be limited for the duration of Yatra. The recent accord, however, by replacing the word 'only' with the word 'exclusive' undertakes a very significant shift in the meaning of what can be done with the land, and who can do whatever that can be done. The expression 'Only for the purpose of the user' - suggests that there is one and only one use, to which the user (here the SASB) is entitled. 'Exclusive' usage rights, however, means that there can only be one user. It does not limit usage, it limits who can be the user. In fact, it clearly suggests that the 'user' can do whatever it wants to, because it has the'exclusive' (it 'excludes' all other claims and claimants) rights over the land. The precise language of legal documents and agreements is a matter that requires a great deal of attention. Unfortunately, by conflating 'only' in the high courts order, with 'exclusively' in the recent accord, Durani does not give us reason to believe that he has paid the attention that this matter requires. This reveals, not the strength, but the shallowness of his argument. ----- 5. The matter of Fundamental Rights to Movement, and Article 370 Durani says - "Alas Noorani uses the fundamental rights to his own requirements. Wonder why Noorani does not support abrogation of Article 370 of Indian constitution. Of all the fundamental rights listed in our constitution the first one is "Right To Equality"….."The State shall not discriminate against any citizen on grounds only of religion, race, caste, sex, place of birth or any of them." Does Noorani not feel that 100 crore citizens of India are denied these rights as they do not equal the pampered state subject of Jammu & Kashmir. Why deny the right to buy land in Jammu & Kashmir to 100 crore Indians? Why is Noorani silent on this fundamental right ?" It needs to be pointed out, that Article 370, as it stands at present, does not restrict the right to movement of any Indian citizen in or out of Kashmir. It restricts the matter of ownership of land, and Article 370 is not alone in this regard. The Sixth Schedule of the Indian constitution applies restrictions on the ownership and right to alienate land in several areas, especially those traditionally inhabited by Scheduled Tribes, and in Forest areas. These apply in parts of Andhra Pradesh, Jharkhand, Himachal Pradesh and elsewhere. A state subject of J&K cannot buy land in these areas, in the same way as Indian citizens who are not the aboriginal inhabitants of the areas mentioned in the sixth schedule cannot. So, it is not true to state that Article 370 confers an 'exclusive' right of any kind to anybody. The new accord, by giving the SASB the exclusive right to manage access to the areas under its control for the duration of the pilgrimage, does, without any doubt, violate the fundamental right to movement guaranteed under Article 19 (A) of the Indian Constitution. This means, that if a shepherd were to want to graze his flock on the prescribed route from Baltal, the SASB would be legally entitled to prevent him from doing so, if it wished. This is what is meant by the violation of a fundamental right to movement. Unfortunately, Pawan Durani's effort to conflate two different rights - rights to own land, and the right to move freely within a terrain - in this instance, like all of his other arguments cannot but be seen, again, as misinterpretations (at best) and misinformation and disingenuousness (at worst) Which means, either he does not know what he is talking about, or, he knows but intends to deliberately mislead us all. I leave all the readers on this list to come to their conclusions regarding this matter, and decide whether Durani is a fool, or a charlatan. I have come to mine. regards, Shuddha From ishwarsridharan at yahoo.com Sun Sep 7 18:25:00 2008 From: ishwarsridharan at yahoo.com (Ishwar) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 05:55:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions Message-ID: <780263.77333.qm@web31809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Inder, Let me get this clear. I'm very strongly against ever-increasing cases of religious intolerance, and as an atheist, Hussain's or Nasreen's expressions do not offend me the least. My question was purely theoretical. I request you to note the differences between cause and effect - Hurt is the cause, and Babri Masjid demolition, Taslima Nasreen, Danish Cartoon, Hussain episodes are effects. What is it that you wish to decry? The cause? the effect? both? My initial reply to Aarti's mail was, from a theoretical standpoint, to her questioning the validity of the cause, the 'hurt', and I believe that, given the frameworks in consideration, particularly the differences, hurt is understandable, and the statement "Everybody gets hurt" doesn't quite apply because the religious frameworks clearly place divine rights over individual's rights. Is it your claim that all religious frameworks stop doing that? How does one react to such incidents, I have no clue. Protests, I'd guess. Attempts a dialogue to bridge the gaps, probably. The effects of this cause can be peaceful, a dialogue in an utopian world. Effects, like such incidents, however are something that every person who believes in individual's liberties must fight against. If you don't believe in this distinction between cause and effect, and understanding the reasons behind one, while rejecting the other, I withdraw my case. -- Regards, Ishwar Just another resurrected Neozoic Archosaur comics. http://www.flickr.com/photos/mojosaurus/sets/72157600257724083/ ----- Original Message ---- From: inder salim To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Sunday, September 7, 2008 3:20:43 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions Dear Yousf, Let us keep it simple. I should have used the word ' unwittingly' instead 'boldly' and that might have saved you from writing " I am the last person on earth to condemn artists for having monopoly on liberalism ". I know you are not against artists, and I consider you too an artist in your own unique way. Now you are looking for an alternative, right, take a case like Babri Masjid. The Sang Parivar thought that their sentiments are 'hurt' because a king demolished a temple and constructed a mosque on the same spot. I am not speaking on behalf of Muslims, but on behalf of Liberals, ( as it is convenient to use ) that the mosque should not have been demolished. But the monopoly on 'hurt' scored and we witnessed a monumental tragedy. what was the alternative? There are hundreds of other such examples where this kind of 'hurt' scored and we are reduced to mute spectators. A government, based on a secular constitution should not have given in to this so called 'hurt'. That is my premise. Recently there was an attack on a very small exhibition of prints by Hussain organized by Sahmat. These are not simple hooligans but are from a strong political base with an agenda, to create a panic. They were so daring that they even called the TV channels to document their action. How to denounce that, May be Mr. Ishwar has an answer, People should be told simply that ' freedom of expression' is as important to life as water, food and sleep. Recently, an Italian museum rejected the Pope's desire to remove a frog- Christ sculpture from their display. There was no hue and cry from Christians world. We need to learn from those examples. What is so big about a cartoon. Cartoons are made to bring humour in our lives and not hate. We need to cultivate an accurate sense of 'hurt'. It is time we feel hurt because of immense environmental degradation on our planet. We should be ashamed of our acts against women. We should feel 'hurt' on seeing people begging on the streets. Any answer Mr. Iswar, why Taslima Nasreen was hounded out of Inidia. Both Hussain and Taslima are known for their inaccurate works, but have found a huge support from artists , poets writers and other such segments of our society. are we insane that we support a Taslima and a Hussain, a Chandra Mohan from time to time. We are, indeed a small segment of our society, and if we all don't support this minority within the minority then what we have is complete absence of alternative. Is that what you want for the sake of a ' majority'. Who is afraid of Artists, poets, and dancers? Hussain sahib was once a Rajya Sahba member, and all he did there was drawings of politicians arguing in the parliament. I wish he had drawn them masturbating during sessions. He is less courageous, we all know, but in any case, is he a threat to our society, or someone who announces monetary awards to behead the artist or a writer? Opposing 'freedom of expression' is not a 'view point' but a bully. Of course, artists and poets love audiences, without audiences there is not art and culture, but how come we oppose a change of taste even. Haven't people clapped to something fresh, new and radical, even on the stage when politicians play it out like actors on the stage. People want change, but 'some of well read persons' want to keep us unchanged. Even now we have very few women poets, let alone the past when there were little chances for them to come forward. Males of the family and society were often hurt as and when their daughters would come out in the open. Is it a view point ? We are all here for a change. Let us support the change. Prophets and saints too have been poets in their own unique ways who have always uttered verse with freshness of mood and change. But we simply become worshippers of that change, and obstruct the possibility of change 'unwittingly' Yes, millions go the Haridwar for a sacred dip. But, I guess the dip becomes a very small component of the journey to a pilgrimage . The spectacle of a concentrated human mass is what attracts the people. The urge to brush shoulders with others, new clothes, picnic and exchange of looks with strangers is what seduces the average Indian. that is true, because the pollution level in Ganga does not 'hurt' them in the first place, which proves they are not too serious about the holdy dip. Who is truly religious? The same applies to people who go to Haj. With love is On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 10:13 AM, Ishwar wrote: > Guess I wasn't clear enough in what I intended to convey, and lack of clarity always invites misinterpretation. > > Inder, what made you come to the conclusion that understanding hurt sentiments in religious and other frameworks is tantamount to declaring support for fundamentalism? For that matter, when did understanding anything equated to supporting it? > > As an artist, can I assume that your work would not be received with enthusiasm from every section of the population? That being the case. I think it's vital to understand that the religious communities' hurt comes from something that's fundamental to their current framework, in the local context. Saying 'Dude, everybody gets hurt, so chill' is not quite the answer. > > After respecting the reasoning behind the hate, one might choose to work towards a conversation. I find the comment 'how to > denounce entire majority of religous world who have mononly on 'hurt'"' rather strange. We aren't here to denounce viewpoints are we? I'd thought certain actions are to be denounced, not word views. If that's not the case, how is liberalism any different from religion, the very majority we seek to denounce? > > > P.S: Pardon my ignorance of keywords to express ideas. > > Ishwar > > > Just another resurrected Neozoic Archosaur comics. > http://www.flickr.com/photos/mojosaurus/sets/72157600257724083/ > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: inder salim > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Saturday, September 6, 2008 9:50:56 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions > > Dear Yousuf > this is too sweeping a statement by a well read person like you. > > this also gives us a clue - how often well read people quickly throw > reasoning to dust bins and join hands with those who boldy declare > 'fundamentalsim' as their guiding light on the path of spirituality. > if we condemn artists for having monoply on 'liberalism' then how to > denounce entire majority of religous world who have mononly on 'hurt' > ? Our sufi bhakti traditions were much liberal in their ' ways of > living' than what you consider as offensive. > > this also teachs me that we are basically too small to speak anything > truely about these overwhelming issues through these short cut > discussions, > > Here, i think of paintings, poetry, music dance ( al erotic, sacred > and profane ) and all the eccentric moods of our society, even if ' > well read people' consider it just an entertainment for artists > themselves, and couple of few others in the world. > > We are in a serious trouble. or only I ( artist ) feel it ? > > love > is From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sun Sep 7 19:57:43 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 19:57:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 2-Amarnath Accord - What A.G.Noorani did not tell you ! Message-ID: <6b79f1a70809070727v421bbb52x2f060e1c747529fc@mail.gmail.com> Dear Shuddha, It is very obvious of what way you want the discussion to end up. Let me just share with readers some example. 1. Instead of replying to my post , Mr Shuddha changes the subject to :Noorani Reads the fine print on Amarnath Accord", while as the original subject line was "What A.G.Noorani did not tell you".This is the first impression to understand of how fair Shuddha would have been to understand my write up, and Shuddha lived upto his reputation for that ....perfectly. 2.When I say that every state subject has an equal right to every inch of land , that does not mean to buy a piece of land in Srinagar a Ladakhi would have to go to Assembly to get an order passed. Mr Shuddhas understanding of the sentence is very poor and childish. 3.Shuddha is not aware of who lives in Baltal ? His understanding of the area is based on his passionate reading of anti nationalist and Islamist newspaper like Greater Kashmir and Rising Kashmir. Incidentally rising Kashmir was inaugurated by Noorani himself. What a coincidence. 4.Shuddha again ignores the report of chief Wildlife warden on allotment of land and like a "parrot" repeats the Hurriyat language. And if this is how Shuddha loves to debate without even acknowledging the report of those who are in-charge of ecology and wildlife in the Baltal area , I wonder no one would be able to satisfy his brain,which seems to be locked for any reasoning. 5. What Nitish Sen Gupta had wanted on priority is that on high grounds the number of pilgrims should be restricted to 20000. 6. Shuddha quotes that KPSS or Sanjay Tikoo wanted his participation. What Shuddha does not share that Sanjay Tikoo, who happens to be a close friend, is no less a hostage to the separatists. He has to tow their line. I would not discuss this issue in detail as this may cause harm to my already scared community members in Kashmir. Issue like this needs a broader vision which morons like Shuddha and Gautam Navlakha can not understand. 7. When I was discussing the fundamental right , I wrote " The right to Equality " which Shuddha very cunningly altered to "Fundamental right to Movement" ... It was so clever of him to change the whole context and to ignore the expected discussion of how the 100 crore citizens of India are being denied the right to be equal as against the state subjects of J&K state. And let me remind to Mr Shuddha that neither is whole of J&K a tribal place nor a forest. 8. Shuddha gives a very childish and immature rhetoric statement that the Amarnath accord violate the fundamental right to movement guaranteed under Article 19 (A) of the Indian Constitution. Does that mean that trespassing is no word to exist. Does that mean that I can stroll on India gate lawns on night between 25th and 26th January. Does that mean I can stand right next to barbed wire fence on the border? Does that mean I can ride my bicycle on the runway of an airport. Shuddha has no understand of where the violation applies and where not ? 9.Mr Shuddha may call me a fool or a charlatan. It does not matter to me . I know where his heart lies and what the Neo convert believes in. Pawan Durani From b_a_r_u_k at yahoo.com Sun Sep 7 20:23:18 2008 From: b_a_r_u_k at yahoo.com (Baruk S. Jacob) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 07:53:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord (Nobody) In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70809070134k4be5778eg79f9a5c3b518d2b5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <645176.51078.qm@web54202.mail.re2.yahoo.com> pawan, what i DO understand is that any viewpoint that differs from yours doesn't matter, and belongs to a nobody. i think the point of this list is to discuss/debate issues, with various viewpoints coming in to enrich the mix. i myself have been helped a lot, and have begun to understand, for instance, how a kashmir 'solution' that leaves the pandits out is not fair. if your only aim on this list is to convert and/or belittle those who disagree with what you say, i, for one, find it objectionable. one may violently disagree with anothers views without having to resort to name-calling. ~baruk http://bottlebroke.blogspot.com --- On Sun, 9/7/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > From: Pawan Durani > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord (Nobody) > To: b_a_r_u_k at yahoo.com > Cc: "sarai list" > Date: Sunday, September 7, 2008, 2:04 PM > Baruk, > For "nobodies" like you I have written about > Nooranis observation. Pls > check > > http://thekashmir.wordpress.com/2008/09/07/noorani/ > > And if "nobodies" are no expert...they better not > become"somebody" about > Kashmir issue. > > And unfortuantely these nobody have as much understanding > about Kashmir as I > have of the pictures and poems on your blog. So i dont even > comment on that. > > I hope this does make you understand ? > > Pawan > > > > On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 1:39 PM, Baruk S. Jacob > wrote: > > > pawan, > > > > there are a lot of us on this list who are > "nobody" in the kashmir issue. > > if your discussion is confined to who you define as > "somebody", maybe you > > could send THEM your mails. leave us nobodies out! > > > > ~baruk > > > > http://bottlebroke.blogspot.com > > > > > > --- On Sun, 9/7/08, Pawan Durani > wrote: > > > > > From: Pawan Durani > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine > Print of the Amarnath > > Accord > > > To: "Aarti Sethi" > > > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Date: Sunday, September 7, 2008, 12:59 AM > > > Aarti, > > > Since you r NOBODY in Kashmir issue, you re > irrelevant when > > > it comes to > > > discussing the issues and the personalities > involved. > > > > > > And I wonder why Inder Ji does not respect > himself by > > > suffixing Balasaheb or > > > Advani Ji with Sahib. > > > > > > I know Murtaza and Yasin Malik better than they > know > > > themselves and to know > > > why I know so much about these liars ...you > better know > > > me. > > > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 12:52 AM, Aarti Sethi > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Pawan, > > > > > > > > How is working with a brussel's based > organisation > > > a statement about > > > > someone's credibility? Is a job being a > "paid > > > agent'? Then we are all "paid > > > > agents" of someone or the other. The > kashmir > > > affairs website says quite > > > > clearly that it is a non-funded > organisation. If you > > > know something the rest > > > > of us don't, then maybe you should share > it with > > > the list. Otherwise your > > > > attack on Murtaza makes no sense whatsoever. > > > > > > > > > > > > Aarti > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 9:18 PM, inder > salim > > > wrote: > > > >> > > > >> > Dear Rashneek > > > >> > > > > >> > some times back Mr. Kshmendra said > something > > > similar to me, > > > >> > > > > >> > " you deserve to be ignored > " > > > >> > > > > >> > and now it is you who said it to > Shuddha. > > > >> > > > > >> > I beleive, anybody who had > developed a > > > dislike for a particular person > > > >> > may simply prese the botton ' > delete' > > > >> > > > > >> > it is too easy. > > > >> > because to express the anger on > the list is > > > worst than even 2+2=5. > > > >> > > > > >> > now, coming back to the basic > question of > > > 'Land and Freedom in > > > >> > Kashmir' as seen in the present > and > > > beyond: > > > >> > > > > >> > We all know what is the the stand > of an > > > Nationlaist Indian. There is > > > >> > nothing new, What you are saying is > no > > > differnt from Man Mohan Singh > > > >> > ji, our PM. > > > >> > > > > >> > But if the religion of all > Kashmiris is > > > ' AZADI then how to convert > > > >> > them all into other religion which > is Indian > > > Nationalism in this case. > > > >> > > > > >> > I think it is very simple. Army and > police > > > and other reasoning has > > > >> > not helped us. > > > >> > I too would like to see a change > of heart in > > > kashmir. but, after 1990 > > > >> > that possiblity looks now remote. > Whatever > > > the reasons... > > > >> > > > > >> > Yes, Kashmiri pandits have a legal > claim in > > > the valley, but that can > > > >> > be the part of a real discussion, > as and when > > > it happens between the > > > >> > representatives of all the > inhabitants of the > > > disputed territory. > > > >> > > > > >> > Now disturbes my personally, is > that the fact > > > that the Hindu Right > > > >> > wing has politically appropriated > the whole > > > intellectual worth of > > > >> > Kashmiri pandits. which is not > different from > > > Jamat-i-Islami's effort > > > >> > to represent the whole of AZADI in > kashmir. > > > Kashmiri pandits need to > > > >> > write about it boldly. And if there > is none, > > > they one Advani-cum-Modi > > > >> > is enough to represent them. That > will be > > > unfortunate. > > > >> > > > > >> > We all know how people in kahsmir > are > > > handling this issue. Everything > > > >> > is hazy, but we have recently > witnessed how > > > Geelani sahib had to > > > >> > retract from his claim of total > > > representation. So similarly you too > > > >> > need to think that every kashmniri > pandit is > > > not necessarly a > > > >> > VHP/BJP/BajrangDal/ShivSanik lover. > Let us > > > respect the possiblity. > > > >> > > > > >> > then that will amount to 2+2=4 > > > >> > > > > >> > with love > > > >> > is > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > Just press the delete button, > anything that > > > you consider > > > >> > On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 8:14 PM, > Aditya Raj > > > Kaul < > > > >> kauladityaraj at gmail.com> > > > >> > wrote: > > > >> > > Dear Aarti, > > > >> > > > > > >> > > You are so right. We just > can't > > > ignore Shuddha's posts on this forum. > > > >> He > > > >> > > needs to be corrected from > time to time, > > > hence, we just can't remain > > > >> > silent. > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > Be careful > Aarti.Disinformation spread > > > can be dangerous. > > > >> > > > > > >> > > Warm Regards, > > > >> > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > >> > > > > > >> > > On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 12:31 > PM, Aarti > > > Sethi > > > >> > wrote: > > > >> > > > > > >> > >> Really? Is that so? In > which case > > > every post shuddha writes, rife > > > >> with > > > >> > >> inaccuracies and and > ignorance, > > > should immediately get a response > > > >> from > > > >> > you > > > >> > >> setting the record > straight. > > > Instead, what we witness is a deafening > > > >> > >> silence. Be careful and > intelligent > > > about whom you choose as your > > > >> > >> adversaries Rashneek. And > I think > > > you are well aware of whose posts > > > >> are > > > >> > >> generally ignored on this > list and > > > it certainly isn't Shuddha. > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> regards > > > >> > >> Aarti > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at > 11:19 AM, > > > rashneek kher > > > >> > wrote: > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >>> All that > notwithstanding, > > > Shuddha's knowledge and understanding of > > > >> > either > > > >> > >>> history or politics is > of > > > Kashmir is so poor or so full of > > > >> inaccuries > > > >> > >>> (intentional as well > ignorant) > > > that it is time we start ignoring his > > > >> > posts > > > >> > >>> on Kashmir. > > > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> Regards > > > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> Rashneek > > > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at > 8:24 PM, > > > Aditya Raj Kaul < > > > >> > kauladityaraj at gmail.com > > > >> > >>> >wrote: > > > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> > And, In a recent > lecture in > > > Jamia University, he was no different. > > > >> > >>> > Advocating > pan-Islamist > > > movement in Kashmir. > > > >> > >>> > > > > >> > >>> > On 9/3/08, Lalit > Ambardar > > > wrote: > > > >> > >>> > > > > > >> > >>> > > It is not > > > surprising.AG Noorani is a known sympathiser of > the > > > >> > Kashmiri > > > >> > >>> > pan > > > >> > >>> > > Islamists > & their > > > cause. He ran a campaign series in support of > > > >> > the > > > >> > >>> > > separatists > in HT for > > > years .The very fact that Noorani has > > > >> chosen > > > >> > to > > > >> > >>> > call > > > >> > >>> > > Jammuites as > > > 'communal forces' & 'parivar' > & the > > > accord itself > > > >> as > > > >> > >>> > > > 'gunah-e-bey > > > lazzat' & describe those who attempt to > seek > > > "azadi > > > >> > -bara > > > >> > >>> -e > > > >> > >>> > > -Islam" > as > > > 'victims' says it all. > > > >> > >>> > > > > > >> > >>> > > Noorani once > went > > > overboard in " don't be fence-sitters > " (HT > > > >> New > > > >> > >>> > Delhi/May > > > >> > >>> > > 8, 2007) in > his > > > appreciation of Sayad Sallahudin of HM & the > > > >> > >>> al-Qeada > > > >> > >>> > > affiliate > LeT. In a > > > bizarre coincidence , the day LeT chief > > > >> > allegedly > > > >> > >>> > > assured some > Gen. > > > Patankar of his willingness to come to India > > > >> for > > > >> > >>> talks > > > >> > >>> > > > (...????....) as > > > claimed by Noorani in the article , that very > > > >> day > > > >> > >>> Hafeez > > > >> > >>> > > Sayad > confessed to the > > > reporters in Islamabad about the > > > >> existence > > > >> > of > > > >> > >>> > > terrorist > > > infrastructure in Pakistan & declared his > resolve to > > > >> > carry > > > >> > >>> on > > > >> > >>> > the > > > >> > >>> > > > 'jihad' to its > > > logical conclusion (Ref. TNN/ Times of India, > > > >> > DEL/May8' > > > >> > >>> > 07/ > > > >> > >>> > > page no.13). > > > >> > >>> > > LA > > > >> > >>> > > > > > >> > >>> > > > > > >> > >>> > > > > > >> > >>> > > > > > >> > >>> > > > > > >> > >>> > > > Date: > Wed, 3 Sep > > > 2008 03:55:11 -0700> From: > > > >> > kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > > > >> > >>> > > > > >> > >>> > To: > > > >> > >>> > > > shuddha at sarai.net> > > > CC: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: > > > >> > >>> [Reader-list] > > > >> > >>> > > Noorani > Reads the Fine > > > Print of the Amarnath Accord> > > > > > >> > >>> > > > > > >> > >>> > > > > >> > >>> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1 > > > >> > >>> > > > > >> > >>> > > > > > > >> > >>> > > > > > --- On Wed, > > > 9/3/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta < > > > >> shuddha at sarai.net> > > > >> > >>> > wrote:> > > > >> > >>> > > > From: > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > Subject: > > > Re: > > > >> > >>> > > > [Reader-list] Noorani > > > Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath > > > >> Accord> > > > >> > To: > > > >> > >>> > > > "Shuddhabrata > > > Sengupta" > Cc: > "Sarai > > > list" < > > > >> > >>> > > > > > reader-list at sarai.net>> Date: Wednesday, > September 3, > > > 2008, > > > >> 4:07 > > > >> > PM> > > > >> > >>> > > > > >> > >>> > > Dear > all,> > The > > > link to the Noorani article in the Greater > > > >> Kashmir > > > >> > >>> > > Newspaper in > > my > > > earlier post got inadvertently truncated. Here > > > >> is > > > >> > >>> the > > > >> > >>> > > correct > link.> > > > > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp? > > > >> > > > > >> > >>> > > > > > Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> > > Thanks, Tilak > > > Upadhyay for > > > >> > pointing > > > >> > >>> this > > > >> > >>> > > out.> > > > > > best,> > Shuddha> > On 03-Sep-08, at > 3:16 PM, > > > >> Shuddhabrata > > > >> > >>> > Sengupta > > > >> > >>> > > wrote: Dear > all> > > > > > Dear All,> >> > An unusual > intensity > > > of > > > >> hunger > > > >> > >>> for > > > >> > >>> > land > > > >> > >>> > > unites > corporations, > > > state> > agencies and shrine boards in > > > >> India. > > > >> > >>> > Captains > > > >> > >>> > > of > Industry,> > > > > politicians and land hungry divines seem to be > > > >> more > > > >> > >>> > > interested > in> > > > > acrage than in anything else. The Mahabharata > > > >> > >>> mentions > > > >> > >>> > the > > > >> > >>> > > burning > of> > > > > the Khandava forest to appease a hungry god, > > > >> > >>> inaugurating a > > > >> > >>> > > long> > > history > > > of burnt and erased forests and commons. It > > > >> appears > > > >> > as > > > >> > >>> it > > > >> > >>> > > we> > > are > > > surrounded now by 'hungry gods'. The > Khandava-daha > > > >> > >>> continues.> > > > >> > >>> > >> > > > >> > >>> > > > Be it > Chengara > > > (thanks, Anivar Aravind for keeping us updated > > > >> > about> > > > >> > >>> > > > > >> > >>> > the > > > >> > >>> > > land > struggle in > > > Kerala, where the ruling CPI(M) led Left > Front> > > > >> > > > > >> > is > > > >> > >>> > intent > > > >> > >>> > > on > displacing > > > indigenous communities from their land), or> > > > > > >> Singur > > > >> > >>> > (where > > > >> > >>> > > again, the > ruling > > > CPI(M) wants to gift land 'free'> to > a> > > > > >> > gigantic > > > >> > >>> > > corporation > or > > > Amarnath, - the issues - remain the same -> > > to > > > >> do > > > >> > >>> with > > > >> > >>> > > state > mediated > > > acquisition of land, and the sequestering> > > of > > > >> > either > > > >> > >>> > > > cultivator's land, > > > or a natural commons into some form of> > > > > >> > 'gated' > > > >> > >>> and > > > >> > >>> > > > 'fenced' > > > land.> >> > There has been some > premature media > > > spin > > > >> > around > > > >> > >>> the > > > >> > >>> > > > 'accord' > > > that> has> > been reached with the Shree > Amarnath > > > Yatra > > > >> > >>> > Sangharsh > > > >> > >>> > > Samiti based > in> > > > > Jammu. On the face of it, the accord appears > > > >> to > > > >> > >>> grant > > > >> > >>> > a > > > >> > >>> > > limited > usage> > > > > right to the Shree Amarnath Shrine Board. On > > > >> > closer > > > >> > >>> > reading > > > >> > >>> > > of the> > > text > > > however, it becomes evident that the terms of > > > >> this > > > >> > >>> > > 'accord'> > > > >> > >>> > > are> > > actually > > > even more invasive than was the case with the > > > >> > >>> substance > > > >> > >>> > of> > > > >> > >>> > > > the > original > > > gubernatorial 'land transfer' order in > May.> > > > >> > > > > >> I > > > >> > am > > > >> > >>> > > enclosing > below - an > > > article by A. G. Noorani, a well known> > > > > >> > legal > > > >> > >>> > > historian > and > > > practitioner of constitutional law, titled> > > 'An > > > >> > >>> Immoral > > > >> > >>> > and > > > >> > >>> > > Illegal > Accord' > > > which was published in the Greater> > > Kashmir > > > >> > >>> newspaper > > > >> > >>> > > today. It is > available > > > on line at -> > > > > >> > >>> > > > > > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?> > > > > > >> > >>> > > > > > Date=3_9_2008&ItemID=26&cat=1> > >> > > > > Noorani carefully reads the > > > >> > terms > > > >> > >>> of > > > >> > >>> > the > > > >> > >>> > > Amarnath > Accord in > > > this> > article. As I had pointed out > before > > > >> on > > > >> > >>> this > > > >> > >>> > list > > > >> > >>> > > (in my > second post> > > > > (dated 15th August, 2008) in the thread - > > > >> > 'Gun > > > >> > >>> > Salutes > > > >> > >>> > > for > August> > > > > 15' in response to Sonia Jabbar and Aditya > Raj > > > >> Kaul - > > > >> > >>> the > > > >> > >>> > > anger in> > > > > > Kashmir has a lot to do with the arbitrary > > > >> acquisition > > > >> > of > > > >> > >>> > land - > > > >> > >>> > > I> > > had shown, > > > using state government figures, how the > > > >> equivalent > > > >> > of > > > >> > >>> > one> > > > > >> > >>> > > in ten fruit > orchards > > > can be said to be under the occupation of > > > >> > the> > > > > >> > >>> > Armed > > > >> > >>> > > Forces. The > > > 'Amarnath Land Transfer' issue needs to > be seen> > > > in> > > > >> > > > > >> > >>> this > > > >> > >>> > > context.> > >> > > > > As long as that anger (regarding the > alienation > > > >> of > > > >> > >>> land) > > > >> > >>> > is > > > >> > >>> > > not> > > > > addressed, the people of Kashmir will have no > reason, in > > > >> my> > > > >> > > > > > >> > >>> > > estimation, > to think > > > of themselves as anything but under a > > > >> brutal > > > >> > and> > > > >> > >>> > > > > >> > >>> > > unrelenting > > > occupation. The current 'Amarnath Accord' > in my > > > >> view,> > > > >> > > > > > >> > >>> > worsens > > > >> > >>> > > the > situation, and can > > > alienate the people of Kashmir (for> > > > > >> the > > > >> > >>> reasons > > > >> > >>> > > that Noorani > > > underlines below) even more. As such, it can> > > > > > >> only > > > >> > be > > > >> > >>> > viewed > > > >> > >>> > > as yet > another > > > provocation, yet another disaster, in> > > the long > > > >> > and > > > >> > >>> > > > undistinguished record > > > of the Government of India's> > tragic > > > >> > >>> blundering > > > >> > >>> > on > > > >> > >>> > > Kashmir. It > cannot but > > > prove to be divisive in a> > situation > > > >> that > > > >> > >>> > urgently > > > >> > >>> > > requires the > > > opposite.> >> > regards> >> > > > > > Shuddha> >> > > > > >> > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > > ====================================================================== > > > >> > >>> > > > > >> > >>> > > > > > >> > >>> > > ==> > > > > =======================> >> > An > Immoral and > > > Illegal > > > >> Accord> > > > >> > > > > > >> > >>> > Greater > > > >> > >>> > > Kashmir, > September 03, > > > 2008> > A G NOORANI> >> > > Srinagar, Sep > > > >> 2: > > > >> > The > > > >> > >>> > accord > > > >> > >>> > > between the > Jammu and > > > Kashmir government> > and the Shri > > > >> Amarnath > > > >> > >>> Yatra > > > >> > >>> > > Sangharsh > Samiti on 31 > > > August is far> > worse than the > > > >> government's > > > >> > >>> order > > > >> > >>> > > only three > months > > > earlier on 26> > May. It grants the SAYSS > > > >> > >>> concessions > > > >> > >>> > > beyond what > the May > > > order did.> > It is one-sided and marks an > > > >> > abject > > > >> > >>> > > surrender to > violence, > > > blockade> > and to communal forces. The > > > >> > >>> > differences > > > >> > >>> > > between the > order and > > > accord> > are glaring. Here is a list:> > >> > > > >> > > > > >> > 1. > > > >> > >>> The > > > >> > >>> > > order was > made > > > pursuant to a decision on 20 May by the > cabinet> > > > >> > > > > >> > in > > > >> > >>> > which > > > >> > >>> > > both Jammu > and Kashmir > > > were represented. The accord> > > > > >> completely > > > >> > >>> ignores > > > >> > >>> > > Kashmir > where the land > > > is to be given. Jammu alone> > was > > > >> > represented. > > > >> > >>> A > > > >> > >>> > > week > earlier, there > > > was a clampdown in the Valley> > and top > > > >> > leaders > > > >> > >>> were > > > >> > >>> > > > arrested.> >> > > > > 2. Even the controversial order nowhere used > the > > > >> > word > > > >> > >>> > > > > > "exclusive".> > The SAYSS felt so > emboldened > > > as to demand it and > > > >> > >>> threaten > > > >> > >>> > to > > > >> > >>> > > wreck> > > the > > > deal if it was not conceded. The government > yielded > > > >> in > > > >> > >>> the > > > >> > >>> > > early> > > hours > > > of 31 August. Para 6A says that the Government > > > >> > "shall > > > >> > >>> set > > > >> > >>> > > aside> > > for use > > > by Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board exclusively the > > > >> > land > > > >> > >>> in> > > > >> > >>> > > > > > >> > >>> > > Baltal and > > > Domail". This order unknown anywhere in the > world > > > is> > > > >> > > > > >> > >>> > cloaked > > > >> > >>> > > under a lie > by calling > > > it "traditionally under use for the> > > > > >> > annual > > > >> > >>> > yatra > > > >> > >>> > > > purpose". The > > > traditional route for over a century is> > > the > > > >> > Pahalgam > > > >> > >>> > route. > > > >> > >>> > > The Baltal > route is a > > > recent demand. It was> > regarded by the > > > >> Army > > > >> > >>> and > > > >> > >>> > > Nitish > Sengupta Report > > > as dangerous. It is> > also unnecessary > > > >> if > > > >> > the > > > >> > >>> > limit > > > >> > >>> > > of yatris > set by the > > > Report (1 lakh) is> > observed.> > >> > 3. > > > >> This > > > >> > >>> > violates > > > >> > >>> > > the > citizen's > > > fundamental right under Art. 19 (1) D> > to > move > > > >> > freely > > > >> > >>> > > throughout > India. The > > > demand of exclusivity was not> > made even > > > >> in > > > >> > >>> May > > > >> > >>> > 2008 > > > >> > >>> > > or in > decades earlier. > > > It is pure communal> > aggression using > > > >> the > > > >> > >>> yatra > > > >> > >>> > for > > > >> > >>> > > political > > > demonstration not religious> > piety.> > >> > > > > 4. The > > > >> > duration > > > >> > >>> of > > > >> > >>> > use > > > >> > >>> > > is widened > to cover > > > pre and post yatra period.> > Para 6 C > first > > > >> > says > > > >> > >>> > that > > > >> > >>> > > the land > will be used > > > "for the duration of> > the > yatra" > > > >> including > > > >> > the > > > >> > >>> > > period of > preparations > > > and winding up. But> > the very next para > > > >> > has > > > >> > >>> > these > > > >> > >>> > > sinister > words: > > > "The aforesaid land> > shall be used > according > > > >> to > > > >> > the > > > >> > >>> > > Board's > > > requirements from time to> > time, > including for the > > > >> > >>> following". > > > >> > >>> > > There follow > 9 > > > measures including> > construction, setting > up of > > > >> > the > > > >> > >>> > sheds > > > >> > >>> > > and shops > etc. These > > > can be> > done even beyond the yatra period > > > >> > "from > > > >> > >>> > time > > > >> > >>> > > to > time" and > > > "according> > to the Board's > > > requirements"; may be > > > >> all > > > >> > >>> the > > > >> > >>> > year > > > >> > >>> > > around.> > >> > > > > 5. Para 8 of the order insisted that the > land > > > >> "shall > > > >> > >>> > return" > > > >> > >>> > > to the> > > State. > > > This is dropped in the accord. This > > > >> accomplishes > > > >> > S.K. > > > >> > >>> > > > Sinha's> > > > > objective— permanent use the year round.> > >> > > > > 6. > > > >> Also > > > >> > >>> dropped > > > >> > >>> > > totally is > Para 4 on > > > payment for user.> >> > 7. Dropped > too is > > > >> Para > > > >> > 6. > > > >> > >>> An > > > >> > >>> > > undertaking > of > > > "foolproof measures> > against water > pollution > > > >> and > > > >> > Para > > > >> > >>> 7 > > > >> > >>> > on > > > >> > >>> > > payment of > fine for > > > damage to> > the forest. There is a pious > > > >> > >>> provision > > > >> > >>> > in > > > >> > >>> > > accord Para > 6 C (ix) > > > among> > the objectives of land user; > > > >> namely > > > >> > >>> > > > "undertaking > > > measures relating to> > … preservation of > > > ecology" > > > >> > etc. > > > >> > >>> > Breach > > > >> > >>> > > entails no > fine.> > > > >> > 8. The order of 26 May was > rescinded on 1 > > > >> > July. > > > >> > >>> > The > > > >> > >>> > > accord > will> > > > > require a fresh order to implement it. By itself > > > >> the > > > >> > >>> > accord > > > >> > >>> > > has no> > > legal > > > force. Section 2(a) of the J&K Forest > > > >> > (Conservation) > > > >> > >>> Act > > > >> > >>> > > 1997> > > says > > > "the Government shall not, except on a > resolution > > > >> of > > > >> > the > > > >> > >>> > > Council> > > of > > > Ministers based on the advice of the Advisory > > > >> > >>> Committee"> > > > > > >> > >>> > > constituted > under the > > > Act "make any order directing that any > > > >> > forest> > > > > >> > >>> > land > > > >> > >>> > > or any > portion thereof > > > may be used for any non-forest purpose".> > > > >> > > > > >> > The > > > >> > >>> > > earlier > phrase > > > "Council of ministers" merely was > revised by > > > an> > > > >> > > > > >> > >>> > amendment > > > >> > >>> > > in 2001 and > the Forest > > > Advisory Committee's advice was> > > added > > > >> and > > > >> > >>> made > > > >> > >>> > > mandatory. > > > "Council of Ministers" is specific. It > is> > > > > >> different > > > >> > from > > > >> > >>> > "J&K > > > >> > >>> > > > Government" whose > > > powers vest now in the> governor> > > alone. The > > > >> > law > > > >> > >>> > > > intentionally provides > > > the resolution as a safeguard.> > This > > > >> > Council > > > >> > >>> can > > > >> > >>> > > come into > existence > > > only after the next elections.> > In any > > > >> case > > > >> > the > > > >> > >>> > Forest > > > >> > >>> > > Advisory > Committees > > > advice on 12 July 2007> > cannot apply to > > > >> this > > > >> > new > > > >> > >>> > > accord which > must be > > > vetted afresh by that> > Committee. It was > > > >> > given > > > >> > >>> > before > > > >> > >>> > > the Supreme > > > Court's final judgment in> > the T M > Godavarman > > > case > > > >> on > > > >> > 23 > > > >> > >>> > > November > 2007 which > > > lays down the law> > and makes important > > > >> > >>> observations > > > >> > >>> > on > > > >> > >>> > > balancing > development > > > with> > protection of environment. Failure > > > >> to > > > >> > >>> > consider > > > >> > >>> > > it vitiates > the> > > > > decision. Precisely based on > > > >> misrepresentation > > > >> > of > > > >> > >>> > opinion > > > >> > >>> > > of the> > > deputy > > > CM Muzaffar Hussain Beg and advocate general > > > >> Altaf > > > >> > >>> Naik > > > >> > >>> > > both> > > of which > > > were given in entirely difference cases.> > >> > > > > >> The > > > >> > >>> > accord > > > >> > >>> > > lacks legal > efficacy > > > as well as moral and political> > > > > >> legitimacy. > > > >> > Any > > > >> > >>> > order > > > >> > >>> > > in its > implementation > > > will be void in law. It> > is a pity that > > > >> the > > > >> > >>> state > > > >> > >>> > > should bend > all rules > > > to buy peace with> > communal forces > > > >> > including > > > >> > >>> > promise > > > >> > >>> > > to consider > > > compensation for law-> > breakers. What of > > > >> compensation > > > >> > to > > > >> > >>> > the > > > >> > >>> > > Valley for > the > > > blockade? The> > parivar in Jammu has > already > > > >> begun > > > >> > >>> asking > > > >> > >>> > > for more. > The > > > Government> > has not bought peace but > trouble. It > > > >> is > > > >> > >>> > > gunah-e-bey > lazzat > > > (sin> > without any taste.)> >> > > If the > > > >> state > > > >> > can > > > >> > >>> > thus > > > >> > >>> > > bend its > knees before > > > the Sangh parivar on an> > issue like > > > >> this, > > > >> > what > > > >> > >>> > hopes > > > >> > >>> > > of justice > can > > > Kashmiris entertain when> > it comes to > restoring > > > >> > the > > > >> > >>> > raped > > > >> > >>> > > Article 370 > to a > > > status of worth and> > respect?> > >> > > > > END> >> > > > > >> > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > > ====================================================================== > > > >> > >>> > > > > >> > >>> > > > > > >> > >>> > > ==> > > > > =======================> >> >> > >> > > > > >> > >>> > > > > > _________________________________________> > > > > > reader-list: an > > > >> open > > > >> > >>> > discussion > > > >> > >>> > > list on > media and the > > > city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > > To > > > >> > >>> > subscribe: > > > >> > >>> > > send an > email to > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > >> subscribe > > > >> > in > > > >> > >>> the > > > >> > >>> > > subject > header.> > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > >> > >>> > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > > > List > > > >> > archive: > > > >> > >>> < > > > >> > >>> > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > > > > Shuddhabrata > > > >> > >>> Sengupta> > > > >> > >>> > > The Sarai > Programme at > > > CSDS> Raqs Media Collective> > > > >> > shuddha at sarai.net > > > >> > >>> > > > > >> > >>> > > > www.sarai.net> > > > www.raqsmediacollective.net> > > > > > >> > >>> > > > > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: > > > an open > > > >> > >>> > discussion > > > >> > >>> > > list on > media and the > > > city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To > > > >> > subscribe: > > > >> > >>> > send > > > >> > >>> > > an email to > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in> > > > >> the > > > >> > >>> subject > > > >> > >>> > > header.> > To > > > unsubscribe: > > > >> > >>> > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List > > > >> > archive: < > > > >> > >>> > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > > > > > > > > > >> > >>> > > > > > _________________________________________> > reader-list: > > > an open > > > >> > >>> > discussion > > > >> > >>> > > list on > media and the > > > city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To > > > >> > subscribe: > > > >> > >>> > send > > > >> > >>> > > an email to > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the > > > >> > >>> subject > > > >> > >>> > > header.> > To > > > unsubscribe: > > > >> > >>> > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List > > > >> > archive: < > > > >> > >>> > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > >> > >>> > > > > > >> > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > >> > >>> > > Want to > explore the > > > world? Visit MSN Travel for the best deals. > > > >> > >>> > > > > > http://in.msn.com/coxandkings > > > >> > >>> > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > >> > >>> > > reader-list: > an open > > > discussion list on media and the city. > > > >> > >>> > > Critiques > & > > > Collaborations > > > >> > >>> > > To > subscribe: send an > > > email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > >> > >>> > > subscribe in > the > > > subject header. > > > >> > >>> > > To > unsubscribe: > > > >> > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > >> > >>> > > List > archive: > > > > > > > >> > >>> > > > > _________________________________________ > > > >> > >>> > reader-list: an > open > > > discussion list on media and the city. > > > >> > >>> > Critiques & > > > Collaborations > > > >> > >>> > To subscribe: > send an email > > > to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > >> > >>> > subscribe in the > subject > > > header. > > > >> > >>> > To unsubscribe: > > > >> > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > >> > >>> > List archive: > > > > > > > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> -- > > > >> > >>> Rashneek Kher > > > >> > >>> Wandhama Massacre-The > Forgotten > > > Human Tragedy > > > >> > >>> > > > http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com > > > >> > >>> > > > http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com > > > >> > >>> > > > _________________________________________ > > > >> > >>> reader-list: an open > discussion > > > list on media and the city. > > > >> > >>> Critiques & > Collaborations > > > >> > >>> To subscribe: send an > email to > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > >> > >>> subscribe in the > subject header. > > > >> > >>> To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > >> > >>> List archive: > > > > > > > >> > >>> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > >> > > reader-list: an open > discussion list on > > > media and the city. > > > >> > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > >> > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > > > >> > > To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > >> > > List archive: > > > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > -- > > > >> > > > > >> > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > > >> > > _________________________________________ > > > >> > reader-list: an open discussion > list on media > > > and the city. > > > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > > > >> > To subscribe: send an email to > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > > > >> > To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > >> > List archive: > > > > > > > >> > > > > >> > _________________________________________ > > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on > media and > > > the city. > > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > > >> To subscribe: send an email to > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > > >> To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > >> List archive: > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject > > > header. > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > From tapasrayx at gmail.com Sun Sep 7 20:36:17 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2008 11:06:17 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord In-Reply-To: References: <"6353c6908090307 54n46e01c85va5267b772467649f"@mail.gmail.com> <"13df7c120809052249j449f2d1ahdb f3c72236d07f8b"@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809060001o1e15116dkb2b0502462d8bd5f@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690809060744w1aab3fb8sa79fd383ca18f25a@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70809060848l9401fcdledbad1da01dfb823@mail.gmail.com> <"6b79f1a708090 61140n3f24f95cpf5ff5953a49217c"@mail.gmail.com> <"48c2916d0809061222r5ed5472bo bc8768f09ca08a4"@mail.gmail.com> <"6b79f1a70809061229n44e9f372i200d4250bf79a3c a"@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809061328w7dcbedf3v78bef0a75f987401@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70809061341s2c2162f9s57c8eda7a71ba2f3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48C3EDE9.6030405@gmail.com> I agree. I am saving many posts of this debate to study later because they are rich in ideas, but there are others, too many of them, that make me sad. Let's not forget that we are talking about human tragedies here on both sides, not just conflicting ideologies. Just my two-bit. Tapas radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > It is indeed sad that a debate, a healthy one gets so personal, that the thoughts of the debate are diluted totally and space is utilised to condemn the person than the debate on the thoughts expressed. > > If Shuddha, Kshemendra or Aditya or AArti express the thoughts differently, is there merit in condemning the person ? Is it not better to exchange thoughts rather than condemn the person who express the dissent on the thoughts. ? > From shuddha at sarai.net Sun Sep 7 22:13:51 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 22:13:51 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 2-Amarnath Accord - What A.G.Noorani did not tell you ! In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70809070727v421bbb52x2f060e1c747529fc@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70809070727v421bbb52x2f060e1c747529fc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <867BED98-20C0-4F08-9E47-68537A194261@sarai.net> Dear Pawan Durani, dear all, I am grateful, Mr.Durani, for your post in response to my reply, and I am equally happy to conduct this discussion under any heading, be it, 'What A.G.Noorani Did Not Tell You' or 'What Pawan Durani Does Not Want Us to Talk About'. You underestimate my patience in terms of taking this issue through to its logical conclusion. I may add, that I have no pre-determined agenda insofar as the end of any discussion is concerned. I believe in letting a discussion proceed on the terms of a reasonable exchange of ideas and information, not on name-calling as a means to stone- wall a discussion and to terrorize its participants, or its audience or readership, into submission. I invite you to try and do the same for a change. Unfortunately for you, Mr.Durani, the issue is not about whether or not someone is 'buying' the land in Baltal. The SASB is not 'buying' the land. Its intent is to acquire the land through a state enforced fiat, on state enforced terms, at state enforced prices. You cannot call that 'buying'. You can buy the land if someone is willing to sell it, if there is a perfect equality in terms between the two parties involved in the transaction, and if their desires (to buy and sell) intersect and are co-eval. If people are unwilling to 'sell' then, the land cannot be 'bought'. In any case, here, the legal 'owner' of some of the land, happens to be an agency of the State Government, and the legal owners of the land in question happen to be several other private parties. The 800 kanals in question are a mix of Foret land, State Government owned land, and private property. (As Sonia Jabbar has pointed out before). If all the legal owners of the land are prepared to sell the land to the SASB, or to any other party, there cannot be any objection. Not even from me. That would be a straightforward and transparent transaction that is governed by the laws of how things (especially land) are bought and sold. And then your argument that the SASB's intention to get land is equivalent to the case of any citizen of Jammu or Ladakh buying land anywhere in J&K would have some basis. I am afraid, in the absence of sellers, or their consent, there cannot be a buyer, and certainly the SASB is not a 'buyer'. Since no 'purchase' of land is either occurring, or contemplated, your argument falls flat on its face. I might add, that It is the same issue that rears its head wherever else land acquisition by force or fraud comes up. In Singur, the Government of West Bengal, did not 'buy' the land from the people who owned the land, before passing it on the Tata Group. It 'acquired' it under the cover of a Land Acquisition Act enacted through the violence of colonial oppression in 1894. (The same act, incidentally, is used, by the Indian armed forces to 'acquire' land, including orchards and fields, in J&K), Today, the West Bengal Government it is being compelled to rethink its previously unwavering posture on the matter of land acquisition. I am sure that in J&K, the patently undemocratic act of 'acquisition' of land for the SASB is bound to backfire in time on the authorities responsible for this decision. It has already cost them a great deal, it will cost them more in future. I am very well aware of who lives in Baltal. Baltal was a small impermanent settlement generally used for transhumance by nomadic shepherds following the banks of the Sindh nullah or the Romashi rivulet on their way to Dras and beyond from the Kashmir valley through the Zoji-La Pass that has grown into a small settlement. It was traditionally never used for the Amarnath Pilgrimage and came into prominence only when the possibility of helicopter services from the area to the Amarnath site became feasible. Today, it comes to life during the 'pilgrimage' season, when many of the local nomadic Gujjars, and other more sedentary Kashmiris, generally Muslim by faith, act as guides and pilgrims to the Hindu pilgrims who use the 'new' Baltal route. They are joined by Tibetan refugee and Ladakhi seasonal wool and trinket traders, who do brisk business, and volunteers or 'sevadars' from the plains who assist the pilgrims. See - No sign of land row in Baltal by Shujaat Bukhari, in the Hindu of August 12, 2008, for more details about Baltal. http://www.thehindu.com/2008/08/12/stories/2008081254781100.htm (The Hindu's reports on Kashmir, especially those by Praveen Swami, are items that Mr. Durani and his friends particuarly relish offering to this list. So, I am sure that he would take this report with utmost seriousness) The trek from Baltal climbs steeply from Domail, (2 kms from the Baltal base camp) and the area is especially prone to storms and landslides, which is why there has always been an insistence on keeping the number of pilgrims low along this route. The 'overall' figure for pilgrims on the 'Baltal route' recommended by the Nitish Sengupta committee nowhere exceeds 700 pilgrims per day. This is what the committee recommended on the basis of what it thought was the possible infrastructure load that the area could accommodate, and keeping in mind reasons of health and safety of the pilgrims. Nitish Sengupta has now emerged as a voice in support of the SASB's current position of claims on the land, (though he continues to maintain that the number of pilgrims, and the duration of the pilgrimage need to be curtailed) but the one-man committee report presented by him is explicit in terms of the number of pilgrims that the Baltal region can take. Incidentally, the head priest of Dashnami Akhara Mahant Deependra Giri the traditional custodian of the 'Cchari Mubarak' (the holy mace) and who initiates the ritual processes that inaugurate the annual pilgrimage to the Amarnath Shrine, is also of the express view that the Baltal route should be avoided as it has no scriptural sanction whatsoever. Here is a report quoting the Mahant on his conclusion of the pilgrimage this year. Mahant: Reduce Yatra Period, Avoid Baltal Kashmir Observer, August 19, 2008 http://www.kashmirobserver.com/index.php? option=com_content&view=article&id=886:mahant-reduce-yatra-period- avoid-baltal&catid=50:localnews&Itemid=81 I quote from this report - "Mahant, who resigned from the SASB over the issue of extending the duration of the yatra, had urged pilgrims not to visit the cave before the 'Vyas Purnima' and prefer the traditional 46-km Pahalgam route to the shortest 12-km Baltal route for religious reasons." Clearly, Pawan Durani will tell us that the statements made in public fora by Kashmiri Pandits based in the valley and the Mahant of the Dashnami Akhara cannot be trusted, but we must take whatever he says on face value. Durani says that people like Sanjay Tickoo are 'hostage to the terrorists'. Now he will probably say that Mahant Deependra Giri is also a 'hostage to terrorists' . A statement of this nature is serious, and unless Tickoo corroborates what Durani says, must be treated as a malicious attempt at putting words by Durani into Tickoo's mouth. I could just as easily say that Durani and the entire Panun Kashmir-Roots in Kashmir archipelago are 'hostages to state terror' but I do not believe that arguments can be made, won, or lost by such utterly pointless exchanges. We must argue on the basis of publicly verifiable statements. And insofar as publicly verifiable statements are concerned, I am afraid that Durani & Co.s insistence that they speak on behalf of all Hindus in the Kashmir valley, or all Hindus in Jammu & Kashmir, or even all Hindus in India does not hold. It gives us a sense only of their exaggerated sense of their importance and their arrogance. Again, we cannot pretend, like Durani, that the right to acquire land is equal to the right to movement, Article 370 restricts transactions in land, not movement. The right to equality operates in situations when the same end is sought by two parties. If two parties seek movement, the right to equality would mean that both have the equal right to move. If two parties seek to purchase land then the right to equality would mean that both parties have the equal right to purchase land. You cannot counterpose the conditions attendant to the right to purchase land as an objection to to the conditions that apply to the right of movement, and then invoke the right to equality as a plea in favour of a decision one way or another. The right to equality applies when the conditions are such that the two entities s can be seen as capable of brought under considerations in terms of identity (I mean identity here in a logical sense, as in saying that an apple from Himachal Pradesh and an apple from Kashmir are both identically, apples, and must be considered as comparable units of the same class). To do otherwise is to offer an argument that confuses its apples for its oranges. And then says, why are apples not being considered equal to oranges. Finally, I find it interesting that Pawan Durani should use the term 'trespassing'. There is considerable literature on how traditional commons, became sequesterd and segregated through arbitrary invocation of 'trespassing', and how the word trespass was used to effect enclosures upon hitherto existing commons. The violence of the early history of Capitalism throughout the world, is full of usages of the word 'trespass'. If the people of Kashmir had said to the Amarnath pilgrims - "this land is 'ours' you cannot pass through it, and if you do, we shall consider you to be 'trespassers'...' or something to that effect, I would have been spoken as much against such a declaration, as I do today against the SASB and its partisans. In fact, the people of Kashmir, including those who have agitated against the land transfer, have reiterated time and again that they seek to maintain the highest standards of hospitality towards who pass through Kashmir on their way to Amarnath. It is only the protagonists of the SASB, such as our own Pawan Durani, who have no compunction in insulting that generosity by invoking the language of trespass. And no, I do not believe that the restrictions that limit movement on the night of 25th or the 26th of January are moral. I hold them to be deeply immoral. And I also do not believe that there should be borders, or barbed wire fences along borders. I guess that makes me a trespasser. But it makes me a trespasser who has the wherewithal to buttress my words and my beliefs with a sustainable argument. Like many of those who invoke the law of trespass against the passage of common people, Pawan Durani has no ethical, or reasoned argument, all he has behind him is the brutal and immoral might of the Indian state. I might be basing my arguments on the basis of reports on what Pawan Durani characterizes as "Anti-Nationalist and Islamist" newspapers such as Greater Kashmir and Rising Kashmir. (Incidentally, They are neither "Anti Nationalist", nor do I see in them any consistently "Islamist" traces. They are not "anti-nationalist" because they are clearly sympathetic to one or the other variety of Kashmiri Nationalism. I am no doubt, an anti-nationalist, because I believe that all forms of nationalism, including Kashmiri nationalism, are ultimately detrimental to human beings, but it would be unfair to confuse me with the sources I am quoting) But whatever be the case, the instances I am quoting involve quotes from Kashmiri Pandit and non-Muslim individuals who cannot on any grounds be considered either "Anit-Nationalist", or "Islamist" (They have not said they are either, and we cannot accuse people of holding political positions that they have themselves refrained from upholding). The statements that they have made, and which I have quoted, can be either disproven, which would be the case if it were shown that these people did not say these things, or they can be verified. They cannot be considered unacceptable merely because the newspaper that reported them is not of the same Ideological persuasion as Pawan Durani. In my last posting, I had offered the possibility of considering Pawan Durani either as a fool or as a charlatan, based on a my assessment of his demonstrated ability to hold a sustained argument. This meant, that in my opinion, he either did not have the intelligence to hold on to a sustained argument by reasonable means (hence, fool), or cared not to, and was intent on misleading us with his malafide postings (hence, charlatan). This reasoning was entirely based on the form and substance of his argument. I would like to known on what basis Mr.Durani has the impertinence to call me a 'neo- convert'. What dose he think I have 'converted' and that too, newly, to? How can he even think he knows what transpires in my conscience, or what he calls my 'heart' especially when, not a single argument offered by me is based on any question of faith, emotion or sentiment. I have revised my opinion about Pawan Durani, he is clearly not a fool. He is using what Tapas Ray has referred to in his recent post as - 'human tragedies' - for all that they are worth in order to buttress a morally, ethically, rationally weak position, with enough skill not to warrant being mistaken for a fool. That leaves only one possibility. regards Shuddha > Dear Shuddha, > It is very obvious of what way you want the discussion to end up. > Let me > just share with readers some example. > > 1. Instead of replying to my post , Mr Shuddha changes the subject to > :Noorani Reads the fine print on Amarnath Accord", while as the > original > subject line was "What A.G.Noorani did not tell you".This is the first > impression to understand of how fair Shuddha would have been to > understand > my write up, and Shuddha lived upto his reputation for > that ....perfectly. > > 2.When I say that every state subject has an equal right to every > inch of > land , that does not mean to buy a piece of land in Srinagar a > Ladakhi would > have to go to Assembly to get an order passed. Mr Shuddhas > understanding of > the sentence is very poor and childish. > > 3.Shuddha is not aware of who lives in Baltal ? His understanding > of the > area is based on his passionate reading of anti nationalist and > Islamist > newspaper like Greater Kashmir and Rising Kashmir. Incidentally rising > Kashmir was inaugurated by Noorani himself. What a coincidence. > > 4.Shuddha again ignores the report of chief Wildlife warden on > allotment of > land and like a "parrot" repeats the Hurriyat language. And if this > is how > Shuddha loves to debate without even acknowledging the report of > those who > are in-charge of ecology and wildlife in the Baltal area , I wonder > no one > would be able to satisfy his brain,which seems to be locked for any > reasoning. > > 5. What Nitish Sen Gupta had wanted on priority is that on high > grounds the > number of pilgrims should be restricted to 20000. > > 6. Shuddha quotes that KPSS or Sanjay Tikoo wanted his > participation. What > Shuddha does not share that Sanjay Tikoo, who happens to be a close > friend, > is no less a hostage to the separatists. He has to tow their line. > I would > not discuss this issue in detail as this may cause harm to my already > scared community members in Kashmir. Issue like this needs a > broader vision > which morons like Shuddha and Gautam Navlakha can not understand. > > 7. When I was discussing the fundamental right , I wrote " The > right to > Equality " which Shuddha very cunningly altered to "Fundamental > right to > Movement" ... It was so clever of him to change the whole context > and to > ignore the expected discussion of how the 100 crore citizens of > India are > being denied the right to be equal as against the state subjects of > J&K > state. And let me remind to Mr Shuddha that neither is whole of J&K > a tribal > place nor a forest. > > 8. Shuddha gives a very childish and immature rhetoric statement > that the > Amarnath accord violate the fundamental right to movement > guaranteed under > Article 19 (A) of the Indian Constitution. Does that mean > that trespassing is no word to exist. Does that mean that I can > stroll on > India gate lawns on night between 25th and 26th January. Does that > mean I > can stand right next to barbed wire fence on the border? Does that > mean I > can ride my bicycle on the runway of an airport. Shuddha has no > understand > of where the violation applies and where not ? > > 9.Mr Shuddha may call me a fool or a charlatan. It does not matter > to me . I > know where his heart lies and what the Neo convert believes in. > > Pawan Durani > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sun Sep 7 22:47:31 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 22:47:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 2-Amarnath Accord - What A.G.Noorani did not tell you ! In-Reply-To: <867BED98-20C0-4F08-9E47-68537A194261@sarai.net> References: <6b79f1a70809070727v421bbb52x2f060e1c747529fc@mail.gmail.com> <867BED98-20C0-4F08-9E47-68537A194261@sarai.net> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70809071017p30d03db7k1e7d4622fdac55a2@mail.gmail.com> Dear Shuddha / Dear All, I wish I should have stuck by Rashneek advise about ignoring your mails. He had summed up your knowledge about in just few words. I wish I should have. You consistently ignore the court ruling, the report of Wildlife warden and then you are not even happy with Nitish Sen Gupta. All because non of them suit your ideology. How you differentiate between Jammu & Kashmir is best known to you , as if Jammy people have no rights over land in Jammu . I requested you that the topic about Sanjay Tikoo may be avoided. I know the risk he and the rest of Hindu population carry. However you have your own ego to satisfy, even if it means risking someone .........................unless you use your good relation. You have chosen to ignore most of the facts I presented to the readers [ http://thekashmir.wordpress.com/2008/09/07/noorani/ ] and started off like a cassette which is on a auto rewind mode. I wonder what do I call you use the words like "immoral might of Indian State" for your own country. That speaks of your character and integrity. If you have choices to think of me as a fool or whatever ....i have narrowed down mine to just one for you. A Neo convert.......... I do not wish to write more on the subject as you have gained the characteristics of people from Zaina Kadal area of Kashmir. The best rumor mongers of the world.... Your cyber knowledge about Baltal is not enough. I have been visiting that place and higher ups since 1978. You would have even heard the name Baltal then. Bye.......as Rashneek said.....you deserve to be ignored as just are not ready to accept the facts as that hurts your ego. Pawan On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 10:13 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear Pawan Durani, dear all, > > I am grateful, Mr.Durani, for your post in response to my reply, and I am > equally happy to conduct this discussion under any heading, be it, 'What > A.G.Noorani Did Not Tell You' or 'What Pawan Durani Does Not Want Us to Talk > About'. > > You underestimate my patience in terms of taking this issue through to its > logical conclusion. I may add, that I have no pre-determined agenda insofar > as the end of any discussion is concerned. I believe in letting a discussion > proceed on the terms of a reasonable exchange of ideas and information, not > on name-calling as a means to stone-wall a discussion and to terrorize its > participants, or its audience or readership, into submission. I invite you > to try and do the same for a change. > > Unfortunately for you, Mr.Durani, the issue is not about whether or not > someone is 'buying' the land in Baltal. The SASB is not 'buying' the land. > Its intent is to acquire the land through a state enforced fiat, on state > enforced terms, at state enforced prices. You cannot call that 'buying'. > You can buy the land if someone is willing to sell it, if there is a > perfect equality in terms between the two parties involved in the > transaction, and if their desires (to buy and sell) intersect and are > co-eval. > > If people are unwilling to 'sell' then, the land cannot be 'bought'. In any > case, here, the legal 'owner' of some of the land, happens to be an agency > of the State Government, and the legal owners of the land in question happen > to be several other private parties. The 800 kanals in question are a mix of > Foret land, State Government owned land, and private property. (As Sonia > Jabbar has pointed out before). If all the legal owners of the land are > prepared to sell the land to the SASB, or to any other party, there cannot > be any objection. Not even from me. That would be a straightforward and > transparent transaction that is governed by the laws of how things > (especially land) are bought and sold. > > And then your argument that the SASB's intention to get land is equivalent > to the case of any citizen of Jammu or Ladakh buying land anywhere in J&K > would have some basis. I am afraid, in the absence of sellers, or their > consent, there cannot be a buyer, and certainly the SASB is not a 'buyer'. > Since no 'purchase' of land is either occurring, or contemplated, your > argument falls flat on its face. > > I might add, that It is the same issue that rears its head wherever else > land acquisition by force or fraud comes up. In Singur, the Government of > West Bengal, did not 'buy' the land from the people who owned the land, > before passing it on the Tata Group. It 'acquired' it under the cover of a > Land Acquisition Act enacted through the violence of colonial oppression in > 1894. (The same act, incidentally, is used, by the Indian armed forces to > 'acquire' land, including orchards and fields, in J&K), Today, the West > Bengal Government it is being compelled to rethink its previously unwavering > posture on the matter of land acquisition. I am sure that in J&K, the > patently undemocratic act of 'acquisition' of land for the SASB is bound to > backfire in time on the authorities responsible for this decision. It has > already cost them a great deal, it will cost them more in future. > > I am very well aware of who lives in Baltal. Baltal was a small impermanent > settlement generally used for transhumance by nomadic shepherds following > the banks of the Sindh nullah or the Romashi rivulet on their way to Dras > and beyond from the Kashmir valley through the Zoji-La Pass that has grown > into a small settlement. It was traditionally never used for the Amarnath > Pilgrimage and came into prominence only when the possibility of helicopter > services from the area to the Amarnath site became feasible. Today, it comes > to life during the 'pilgrimage' season, when many of the local nomadic > Gujjars, and other more sedentary Kashmiris, generally Muslim by faith, act > as guides and pilgrims to the Hindu pilgrims who use the 'new' Baltal route. > They are joined by Tibetan refugee and Ladakhi seasonal wool and trinket > traders, who do brisk business, and volunteers or 'sevadars' from the plains > who assist the pilgrims. > > See - No sign of land row in Baltal by Shujaat Bukhari, in the Hindu of > August 12, 2008, for more details about Baltal. > http://www.thehindu.com/2008/08/12/stories/2008081254781100.htm > (The Hindu's reports on Kashmir, especially those by Praveen Swami, are > items that Mr. Durani and his friends particuarly relish offering to this > list. So, I am sure that he would take this report with utmost seriousness) > > The trek from Baltal climbs steeply from Domail, (2 kms from the Baltal > base camp) and the area is especially prone to storms and landslides, which > is why there has always been an insistence on keeping the number of pilgrims > low along this route. The 'overall' figure for pilgrims on the 'Baltal > route' recommended by the Nitish Sengupta committee nowhere exceeds 700 > pilgrims per day. This is what the committee recommended on the basis of > what it thought was the possible infrastructure load that the area could > accommodate, and keeping in mind reasons of health and safety of the > pilgrims. Nitish Sengupta has now emerged as a voice in support of the > SASB's current position of claims on the land, (though he continues to > maintain that the number of pilgrims, and the duration of the pilgrimage > need to be curtailed) but the one-man committee report presented by him is > explicit in terms of the number of pilgrims that the Baltal region can take. > > Incidentally, the head priest of Dashnami Akhara Mahant Deependra Giri the > traditional custodian of the 'Cchari Mubarak' (the holy mace) and who > initiates the ritual processes that inaugurate the annual pilgrimage to the > Amarnath Shrine, is also of the express view that the Baltal route should be > avoided as it has no scriptural sanction whatsoever. > > Here is a report quoting the Mahant on his conclusion of the pilgrimage > this year. > > Mahant: Reduce Yatra Period, Avoid Baltal > Kashmir Observer, August 19, 2008 > http://www.kashmirobserver.com/index.php > ?option=com_content&view=article&id=886:mahant-reduce-yatra-period-avoid-baltal&catid=50:localnews&Itemid=81 > > I quote from this report - > "Mahant, who resigned from the SASB over the issue of extending the > duration of the yatra, had urged pilgrims not to visit the cave before the > 'Vyas Purnima' and prefer the traditional 46-km Pahalgam route to the > shortest 12-km Baltal route for religious reasons." > > Clearly, Pawan Durani will tell us that the statements made in public fora > by Kashmiri Pandits based in the valley and the Mahant of the Dashnami > Akhara cannot be trusted, but we must take whatever he says on face value. > Durani says that people like Sanjay Tickoo are 'hostage to the terrorists'. > Now he will probably say that Mahant Deependra Giri is also a 'hostage to > terrorists' . A statement of this nature is serious, and unless Tickoo > corroborates what Durani says, must be treated as a malicious attempt at > putting words by Durani into Tickoo's mouth. I could just as easily say that > Durani and the entire Panun Kashmir-Roots in Kashmir archipelago are > 'hostages to state terror' but I do not believe that arguments can be made, > won, or lost by such utterly pointless exchanges. We must argue on the basis > of publicly verifiable statements. And insofar as publicly verifiable > statements are concerned, I am afraid that Durani & Co.s insistence that > they speak on behalf of all Hindus in the Kashmir valley, or all Hindus in > Jammu & Kashmir, or even all Hindus in India does not hold. It gives us a > sense only of their exaggerated sense of their importance and their > arrogance. > > Again, we cannot pretend, like Durani, that the right to acquire land is > equal to the right to movement, Article 370 restricts transactions in land, > not movement. The right to equality operates in situations when the same end > is sought by two parties. If two parties seek movement, the right to > equality would mean that both have the equal right to move. If two parties > seek to purchase land then the right to equality would mean that both > parties have the equal right to purchase land. You cannot counterpose the > conditions attendant to the right to purchase land as an objection to to the > conditions that apply to the right of movement, and then invoke the right to > equality as a plea in favour of a decision one way or another. The right to > equality applies when the conditions are such that the two entities s can be > seen as capable of brought under considerations in terms of identity (I mean > identity here in a logical sense, as in saying that an apple from Himachal > Pradesh and an apple from Kashmir are both identically, apples, and must be > considered as comparable units of the same class). To do otherwise is to > offer an argument that confuses its apples for its oranges. And then says, > why are apples not being considered equal to oranges. > > Finally, I find it interesting that Pawan Durani should use the term > 'trespassing'. There is considerable literature on how traditional commons, > became sequesterd and segregated through arbitrary invocation of > 'trespassing', and how the word trespass was used to effect enclosures upon > hitherto existing commons. The violence of the early history of Capitalism > throughout the world, is full of usages of the word 'trespass'. > > If the people of Kashmir had said to the Amarnath pilgrims - "this land is > 'ours' you cannot pass through it, and if you do, we shall consider you to > be 'trespassers'...' or something to that effect, I would have been spoken > as much against such a declaration, as I do today against the SASB and its > partisans. In fact, the people of Kashmir, including those who have agitated > against the land transfer, have reiterated time and again that they seek to > maintain the highest standards of hospitality towards who pass through > Kashmir on their way to Amarnath. It is only the protagonists of the SASB, > such as our own Pawan Durani, who have no compunction in insulting that > generosity by invoking the language of trespass. > > And no, I do not believe that the restrictions that limit movement on the > night of 25th or the 26th of January are moral. I hold them to be deeply > immoral. And I also do not believe that there should be borders, or barbed > wire fences along borders. I guess that makes me a trespasser. But it makes > me a trespasser who has the wherewithal to buttress my words and my beliefs > with a sustainable argument. Like many of those who invoke the law of > trespass against the passage of common people, Pawan Durani has no ethical, > or reasoned argument, all he has behind him is the brutal and immoral might > of the Indian state. > > I might be basing my arguments on the basis of reports on what Pawan Durani > characterizes as "Anti-Nationalist and Islamist" newspapers such as Greater > Kashmir and Rising Kashmir. (Incidentally, They are neither "Anti > Nationalist", nor do I see in them any consistently "Islamist" traces. They > are not "anti-nationalist" because they are clearly sympathetic to one or > the other variety of Kashmiri Nationalism. I am no doubt, an > anti-nationalist, because I believe that all forms of nationalism, including > Kashmiri nationalism, are ultimately detrimental to human beings, but it > would be unfair to confuse me with the sources I am quoting) But whatever be > the case, the instances I am quoting involve quotes from Kashmiri Pandit > and non-Muslim individuals who cannot on any grounds be considered either > "Anit-Nationalist", or "Islamist" (They have not said they are either, and > we cannot accuse people of holding political positions that they have > themselves refrained from upholding). The statements that they have made, > and which I have quoted, can be either disproven, which would be the case if > it were shown that these people did not say these things, or they can be > verified. They cannot be considered unacceptable merely because the > newspaper that reported them is not of the same Ideological persuasion as > Pawan Durani. > > In my last posting, I had offered the possibility of considering Pawan > Durani either as a fool or as a charlatan, based on a my assessment of his > demonstrated ability to hold a sustained argument. This meant, that in my > opinion, he either did not have the intelligence to hold on to a sustained > argument by reasonable means (hence, fool), or cared not to, and was intent > on misleading us with his malafide postings (hence, charlatan). This > reasoning was entirely based on the form and substance of his argument. I > would like to known on what basis Mr.Durani has the impertinence to call me > a 'neo-convert'. What dose he think I have 'converted' and that too, newly, > to? How can he even think he knows what transpires in my conscience, or what > he calls my 'heart' especially when, not a single argument offered by me is > based on any question of faith, emotion or sentiment. > > I have revised my opinion about Pawan Durani, he is clearly not a fool. He > is using what Tapas Ray has referred to in his recent post as - 'human > tragedies' - for all that they are worth in order to buttress a morally, > ethically, rationally weak position, with enough skill not to warrant being > mistaken for a fool. That leaves only one possibility. > > regards > > Shuddha > > Dear Shuddha, >> It is very obvious of what way you want the discussion to end up. Let me >> just share with readers some example. >> >> 1. Instead of replying to my post , Mr Shuddha changes the subject to >> :Noorani Reads the fine print on Amarnath Accord", while as the original >> subject line was "What A.G.Noorani did not tell you".This is the first >> impression to understand of how fair Shuddha would have been to understand >> my write up, and Shuddha lived upto his reputation for that ....perfectly. >> >> 2.When I say that every state subject has an equal right to every inch of >> land , that does not mean to buy a piece of land in Srinagar a Ladakhi >> would >> have to go to Assembly to get an order passed. Mr Shuddhas understanding >> of >> the sentence is very poor and childish. >> >> 3.Shuddha is not aware of who lives in Baltal ? His understanding of the >> area is based on his passionate reading of anti nationalist and Islamist >> newspaper like Greater Kashmir and Rising Kashmir. Incidentally rising >> Kashmir was inaugurated by Noorani himself. What a coincidence. >> >> 4.Shuddha again ignores the report of chief Wildlife warden on allotment >> of >> land and like a "parrot" repeats the Hurriyat language. And if this is how >> Shuddha loves to debate without even acknowledging the report of those who >> are in-charge of ecology and wildlife in the Baltal area , I wonder no one >> would be able to satisfy his brain,which seems to be locked for any >> reasoning. >> >> 5. What Nitish Sen Gupta had wanted on priority is that on high grounds >> the >> number of pilgrims should be restricted to 20000. >> >> 6. Shuddha quotes that KPSS or Sanjay Tikoo wanted his participation. What >> Shuddha does not share that Sanjay Tikoo, who happens to be a close >> friend, >> is no less a hostage to the separatists. He has to tow their line. I would >> not discuss this issue in detail as this may cause harm to my already >> scared community members in Kashmir. Issue like this needs a broader >> vision >> which morons like Shuddha and Gautam Navlakha can not understand. >> >> 7. When I was discussing the fundamental right , I wrote " The right to >> Equality " which Shuddha very cunningly altered to "Fundamental right to >> Movement" ... It was so clever of him to change the whole context and to >> ignore the expected discussion of how the 100 crore citizens of India are >> being denied the right to be equal as against the state subjects of J&K >> state. And let me remind to Mr Shuddha that neither is whole of J&K a >> tribal >> place nor a forest. >> >> 8. Shuddha gives a very childish and immature rhetoric statement that the >> Amarnath accord violate the fundamental right to movement guaranteed under >> Article 19 (A) of the Indian Constitution. Does that mean >> that trespassing is no word to exist. Does that mean that I can stroll on >> India gate lawns on night between 25th and 26th January. Does that mean I >> can stand right next to barbed wire fence on the border? Does that mean I >> can ride my bicycle on the runway of an airport. Shuddha has no understand >> of where the violation applies and where not ? >> >> 9.Mr Shuddha may call me a fool or a charlatan. It does not matter to me . >> I >> know where his heart lies and what the Neo convert believes in. >> >> Pawan Durani >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > From shuddha at sarai.net Mon Sep 8 02:42:24 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 02:42:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Breakthrough in Singur Message-ID: <4FAB0460-19A7-4D6C-AA55-C4CE7FD7EAF4@sarai.net> Dear all, (apologies for cross posting on Kafila) This list has in the past discussed the debacle of Nandigram in West Bengal, and the efforts to ensure that the farmers of Singur were not forcibly alienated from their land (without their consent) for the sake of the Tata Motors factory that aims to produce the 'Nano' Car. We have also read a great deal of reports recently from the Chengara land struggle in Kerala. For the past several days, a peaceful agitation on the Durgapur expressway near the Tata Motors Factory site in Singur in West Bengal has protested against the West Bengal Industrial Development Corporation and the West Bengal Government's decision not to engage with the demands of the farmers and others who did not voluntarily accept the paltry compensation offered to them by the WBIDC for the loss of their land or their livelihoods. At the close of last night, the Governor of West Bengal, Gopal Krishna Gandhi announced that a solution acceptable to all (the protesting farmers at Singur and the Government of West Bengal) has been found, and that Ms. Mamata Bannerjee of the Trinamool Congress (one of the key protagonists of the Singur protest) would announce that the agitation at Singur would be suspended. This is good news, as it demonstrates that hitherto unwilling and insensitive governments that try to ride roughshod over people in the interests of capital can be made on occasion to listen to organized and peaceful expressions of peoples' dissent. The CPI(M) led Left Front Government of West Bengal seems to have learnt at least some lessons from the fallout of its earlier shameful and anti-democratic conduct in Nandigram. This is welcome. It can only be hoped that the CPI(M) leadership takes stock, learns to listen more to people, and indeed to many from amongst their own cadre who have been unhappy about the way in which their party brokered unfair land deals for Capital. The people of Nandigram had based their struggle on what they had learnt from the earlier phase of the Singur situation. It appears today that the people of Singur have benefited from the restraint shown by a government and ruling party chastened by its mismanagement of the situation in Nandigram. The people of Singur owe their current sense of respite to a great extent to the people of Nandigram and their struggle. Though it may be premature to call this 'breakthrough' a victory for peasants and working people, it is certainly reason to believe that not every struggle conducted by ordinary people over land, resources and livelihood is doomed to failure. This news should raise the hopes of all those committed to protest against unjust land alicquisition and transfer moves - be they in Orissa, Haryana, Kerala, Kashmir or elsewhere. I enclose below a PTI report in the Hindu that gives more details of the agreement. regards, Shuddha ----------------- Understanding on Singur reached, Mamata calls of agitation http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/000200809080326.htm Kolkata (PTI): The two-year-old Singur crisis was resolved late on Sunday night as a land-for-land agreement was reached at a face-to- face meeting between West Bengal Chief Minister Buddhadev Bhattacharjee and Trinamool Congress chief Mamata Banerjee here, capping three days of hard-nosed bargaining. As part of the agreement, the government would return the land of all those farmers who have not been compensated, most of which are within the premises of the Tata Motors Nano car factory in Singur, Governor Gopalkrishna Gandhi, who brokered the talks between the two sides, told mediapersons at Raj Bhawan. Mamata, in turn, announced the immediate withdrawal of her party's two-year-old agitation on the issue and the fortnight-long sit-in demonstration at the factory site. A committee would be set up to work out modalities of returning the land of the farmers who have not got the compensation within a week during which government ordered suspension of all construction work in the nearby ancillary units of the car factory, Gandhi said reading from a prepared text of the understanding reached between the two sides. The Governor announced the breakthrough in the impasse in the presence of the Chief Minister and the Trinamool Congress chief at the end of a series of of meetings including the first-ever talks between Bhattacharjee and Banerjee. The talks, marked by twists and turns, was salvaged from the verge of collapse this evening following a last-minute demand by Mamata, after a consensus was reached earlier, that land of all farmers acquired of vendors of ancillary units of the Tata Motors Nano car plant at Singur be returned to farmers. The sudden near-breakdown of talks was, however, resolved at the initiative of Governor Gopalkrishna Gandhi, who has been chairing the talks since Friday. After the understanding was reached, Mamata Banerjee claimed "total victory" for her party and said "this has brought to an end to the two-year-old agitation and 15-day dharna over Singur". Reading out the text of joint statement issued by both the chief minister and the Trinamool Congress supremo, the Governor said the state government had taken the decision to respond to demands of those farmers who have not received compensation by means of land to be provided to the maximum within the factory project area and rest in adjacent areas as early as possible. "Towards this, a committee will be constituted to ascertain the scope and settle the modalities within a period of one week," the governor said. During this time, the statement said, the government would urge the vendors not to make any construction. "Mamata Banerjee is making an announcement regarding the suspension of the agitation from Singur," he said. The government and those agitating on behalf of the farmers would cooperate with each other for the benefit of the industry, agriculture and ancillaries, he said. The Governor was flanked by the chief minister, the Trinamool Congress chief, Commerce and Industry Minister Nirupam Sen, Leader of the Opposition Partha Chatterjee and Trinamool leader Kalyan Banerjee. Mamata Banerjee claimed 300 acres would be returned to farmers and 100 acres adjacent to the ancillary units to them. The governor said, "I am happy to be able to read the text of an understanding which has been signed on behalf of the government by the honourable Minister for Industries and Commerce and on behalf of the agitating farmers by the honourable Leader of the Opposition. "I am particularly glad to be able to read this in the presence of the chief minister and Mamata Banerjee who has come from Singur to be present at this conclusive and concluding days of discussions between the Samity and its representatives and the government." From lalitambardar at hotmail.com Mon Sep 8 03:54:40 2008 From: lalitambardar at hotmail.com (Lalit Ambardar) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 22:24:40 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] 2-Amarnath Accord - What A.G.Noorani did not tell you ! In-Reply-To: <867BED98-20C0-4F08-9E47-68537A194261@sarai.net> References: <6b79f1a70809070727v421bbb52x2f060e1c747529fc@mail.gmail.com> <867BED98-20C0-4F08-9E47-68537A194261@sarai.net> Message-ID: In case the discussion is still on AG Noorani’s article consisting of baseless allegations that are only meant to mislead the Kashmiri Muslim masses then please note the following point wise rebuttal to Noorani’s rhetoric( did not check mail & missed Pawan Durani’s elaborate post while I had already prepared the note, therefore, would still like to share) : 1. The mass movement in Jammu was against the Govt. rescind order. Therefore, the accord had to be between the SASS & the govt. only .The Kashmiri Islamists who refuse to recognise the law of the land had rendered themselves redundant. In any case Govt. did not bother to consult people of Jammu either when the land transfer order was revoked under pressure from the Kashmiri Islamists. Jammu & Kashmir continues to be a single entity; therefore, Jammuites as state subjects have equal right on Kashmir province as well. Mischievous role of the Kashmiri Muslim leaders in spreading canards of cultural & demographic invasion to mislead the masses is ignored by Noorani. Why? 2. There is nothing wrong in the using the term ‘exclusive’ unless there is a sinister design behind the objection. The fact is that the land is to be used is for putting up the facilities along the Hindu pilgrimage route. Baltal route has been in use for years now. In any case why should any body object to a particular route to the shrine? There are portions along Pahalgam route also which are quite dangerous. Where else in the country has a limit been put on the number of pilgrims? Why pick on Amarnath yatra please? In any case the local service providers are always happy with the greater number as obviously it adds to their income. 3. How does article 19(1) D get violated by merely allotting the land ‘exclusively’ for the yatra? Unless there is a sinister desire to disrupt the yatra. It could be only a sick man’s idea to imagine misuse of yatra for ‘political’ & not ‘religious’ purposes. Politics at those uninhabitable heights??? The idea probably stems from the post Friday congregations in Kashmir where anti India venom is spewed routinely. 4. Arrangements are always made before & not during the event or pilgrimage. 5. Ownership of land doesn’t change. Hence article 370 isn’t violated. Aren’t Hindus of J& K entitled for equal rights in J&K.? 6. Payment for land use sounds like imposition of “jazia”. Otherwise who pays whom? How are Kashmniri Muslims affected by the waver? It is ironic that when the Kashmiri Islamists were up in the arms against the land transfer in Kashmir, Delhi CM laid the foundation stone of a multi billion dollar Haj House that is to be fitted with most advanced facilities in Dwarka & no questions are asked. 7. It is preposterous to propose fine against water pollution & against causing damage to the forests on the Hindu pilgrims in a secular India. Where else is this being done in India or abroad? Why is this assumed that Hindus are philistine? Sonia Jabber had earlier in HT also observed sarcastically that the pilgrims preferred “lota & woods”. I wonder what local Muslims do. Do they use mobile lavatories? And what did Sonia Jabber do on the treck? Why pick on Hindu pilgrims please? Why not talk about shrinking Dal Lake & Jehlum that is more pertinent. At least Kashmiri Hindus haven’t contributed any waste to the rivers & lakes fro the past almost two decades since their ethnic cleansing in the valley 19 years ago. 8. Why is there silence over the illegality of the rescind order which was issued after the PDP withdrawal. There is no arrangement like ‘minority govt’ in the J&K constitution. How can you on the one hand espouse openly the cause of Kashmiri pan Islamic separatists who do not believe in the law of the land & on the other talk of ‘legal efficacy’ as well as ‘moral political legitimacy’??? Why cry foul over aid to the Jammu protestors who fought for a just demand when the Govt. has also been giving aid to the families of terrorists besides giving compensation to the protestors in Kashmir as well. We did not hear AG Noorani scream when SAS Jillani who openly demands merger of Kashmir with Pakistan ( Azadi bara e Islam) was airlifted in a state owned aircraft from Ranchi jail to Mumbai for treatment a couple of years ago. LA ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > From: shuddha at sarai.net> Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 22:13:51 +0530> To: pawan.durani at gmail.com> CC: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 2-Amarnath Accord - What A.G.Noorani did not tell you !> > Dear Pawan Durani, dear all,> > I am grateful, Mr.Durani, for your post in response to my reply, > and I am equally happy to conduct this discussion under any heading, > be it, 'What A.G.Noorani Did Not Tell You' or 'What Pawan Durani > Does Not Want Us to Talk About'.> > You underestimate my patience in terms of taking this issue through > to its logical conclusion. I may add, that I have no pre-determined > agenda insofar as the end of any discussion is concerned. I believe > in letting a discussion proceed on the terms of a reasonable exchange > of ideas and information, not on name-calling as a means to stone- > wall a discussion and to terrorize its participants, or its audience > or readership, into submission. I invite you to try and do the same > for a change.> > Unfortunately for you, Mr.Durani, the issue is not about whether or > not someone is 'buying' the land in Baltal. The SASB is not 'buying' > the land. Its intent is to acquire the land through a state enforced > fiat, on state enforced terms, at state enforced prices. You cannot > call that 'buying'. You can buy the land if someone is willing to > sell it, if there is a perfect equality in terms between the two > parties involved in the transaction, and if their desires (to buy and > sell) intersect and are co-eval.> > If people are unwilling to 'sell' then, the land cannot be 'bought'. > In any case, here, the legal 'owner' of some of the land, happens to > be an agency of the State Government, and the legal owners of the > land in question happen to be several other private parties. The 800 > kanals in question are a mix of Foret land, State Government owned > land, and private property. (As Sonia Jabbar has pointed out > before). If all the legal owners of the land are prepared to sell the > land to the SASB, or to any other party, there cannot be any > objection. Not even from me. That would be a straightforward and > transparent transaction that is governed by the laws of how things > (especially land) are bought and sold.> > And then your argument that the SASB's intention to get land is > equivalent to the case of any citizen of Jammu or Ladakh buying land > anywhere in J&K would have some basis. I am afraid, in the absence of > sellers, or their consent, there cannot be a buyer, and certainly the > SASB is not a 'buyer'. Since no 'purchase' of land is either > occurring, or contemplated, your argument falls flat on its face.> > I might add, that It is the same issue that rears its head wherever > else land acquisition by force or fraud comes up. In Singur, the > Government of West Bengal, did not 'buy' the land from the people who > owned the land, before passing it on the Tata Group. It 'acquired' it > under the cover of a Land Acquisition Act enacted through the > violence of colonial oppression in 1894. (The same act, incidentally, > is used, by the Indian armed forces to 'acquire' land, including > orchards and fields, in J&K), Today, the West Bengal Government it > is being compelled to rethink its previously unwavering posture on > the matter of land acquisition. I am sure that in J&K, the patently > undemocratic act of 'acquisition' of land for the SASB is bound to > backfire in time on the authorities responsible for this decision. It > has already cost them a great deal, it will cost them more in future.> > I am very well aware of who lives in Baltal. Baltal was a small > impermanent settlement generally used for transhumance by nomadic > shepherds following the banks of the Sindh nullah or the Romashi > rivulet on their way to Dras and beyond from the Kashmir valley > through the Zoji-La Pass that has grown into a small settlement. It > was traditionally never used for the Amarnath Pilgrimage and came > into prominence only when the possibility of helicopter services from > the area to the Amarnath site became feasible. Today, it comes to > life during the 'pilgrimage' season, when many of the local nomadic > Gujjars, and other more sedentary Kashmiris, generally Muslim by > faith, act as guides and pilgrims to the Hindu pilgrims who use the > 'new' Baltal route. They are joined by Tibetan refugee and Ladakhi > seasonal wool and trinket traders, who do brisk business, and > volunteers or 'sevadars' from the plains who assist the pilgrims.> > See - No sign of land row in Baltal by Shujaat Bukhari, in the Hindu > of August 12, 2008, for more details about Baltal.> http://www.thehindu.com/2008/08/12/stories/2008081254781100.htm> (The Hindu's reports on Kashmir, especially those by Praveen Swami, > are items that Mr. Durani and his friends particuarly relish offering > to this list. So, I am sure that he would take this report with > utmost seriousness)> > The trek from Baltal climbs steeply from Domail, (2 kms from the > Baltal base camp) and the area is especially prone to storms and > landslides, which is why there has always been an insistence on > keeping the number of pilgrims low along this route. The 'overall' > figure for pilgrims on the 'Baltal route' recommended by the Nitish > Sengupta committee nowhere exceeds 700 pilgrims per day. This is what > the committee recommended on the basis of what it thought was the > possible infrastructure load that the area could accommodate, and > keeping in mind reasons of health and safety of the pilgrims. Nitish > Sengupta has now emerged as a voice in support of the SASB's current > position of claims on the land, (though he continues to maintain that > the number of pilgrims, and the duration of the pilgrimage need to be > curtailed) but the one-man committee report presented by him is > explicit in terms of the number of pilgrims that the Baltal region > can take.> > Incidentally, the head priest of Dashnami Akhara Mahant Deependra > Giri the traditional custodian of the 'Cchari Mubarak' (the holy > mace) and who initiates the ritual processes that inaugurate the > annual pilgrimage to the Amarnath Shrine, is also of the express view > that the Baltal route should be avoided as it has no scriptural > sanction whatsoever.> > Here is a report quoting the Mahant on his conclusion of the > pilgrimage this year.> > Mahant: Reduce Yatra Period, Avoid Baltal> Kashmir Observer, August 19, 2008> http://www.kashmirobserver.com/index.php? > option=com_content&view=article&id=886:mahant-reduce-yatra-period- > avoid-baltal&catid=50:localnews&Itemid=81> > I quote from this report -> "Mahant, who resigned from the SASB over the issue of extending the > duration of the yatra, had urged pilgrims not to visit the cave > before the 'Vyas Purnima' and prefer the traditional 46-km Pahalgam > route to the shortest 12-km Baltal route for religious reasons."> > Clearly, Pawan Durani will tell us that the statements made in public > fora by Kashmiri Pandits based in the valley and the Mahant of the > Dashnami Akhara cannot be trusted, but we must take whatever he says > on face value. Durani says that people like Sanjay Tickoo are > 'hostage to the terrorists'. Now he will probably say that Mahant > Deependra Giri is also a 'hostage to terrorists' . A statement of > this nature is serious, and unless Tickoo corroborates what Durani > says, must be treated as a malicious attempt at putting words by > Durani into Tickoo's mouth. I could just as easily say that Durani > and the entire Panun Kashmir-Roots in Kashmir archipelago are > 'hostages to state terror' but I do not believe that arguments can be > made, won, or lost by such utterly pointless exchanges. We must argue > on the basis of publicly verifiable statements. And insofar as > publicly verifiable statements are concerned, I am afraid that Durani > & Co.s insistence that they speak on behalf of all Hindus in the > Kashmir valley, or all Hindus in Jammu & Kashmir, or even all Hindus > in India does not hold. It gives us a sense only of their exaggerated > sense of their importance and their arrogance.> > Again, we cannot pretend, like Durani, that the right to acquire land > is equal to the right to movement, Article 370 restricts transactions > in land, not movement. The right to equality operates in situations > when the same end is sought by two parties. If two parties seek > movement, the right to equality would mean that both have the equal > right to move. If two parties seek to purchase land then the right to > equality would mean that both parties have the equal right to > purchase land. You cannot counterpose the conditions attendant to the > right to purchase land as an objection to to the conditions that > apply to the right of movement, and then invoke the right to equality > as a plea in favour of a decision one way or another. The right to > equality applies when the conditions are such that the two entities s > can be seen as capable of brought under considerations in terms of > identity (I mean identity here in a logical sense, as in saying that > an apple from Himachal Pradesh and an apple from Kashmir are both > identically, apples, and must be considered as comparable units of > the same class). To do otherwise is to offer an argument that > confuses its apples for its oranges. And then says, why are apples > not being considered equal to oranges.> > Finally, I find it interesting that Pawan Durani should use the term > 'trespassing'. There is considerable literature on how traditional > commons, became sequesterd and segregated through arbitrary > invocation of 'trespassing', and how the word trespass was used to > effect enclosures upon hitherto existing commons. The violence of the > early history of Capitalism throughout the world, is full of usages > of the word 'trespass'.> > If the people of Kashmir had said to the Amarnath pilgrims - "this > land is 'ours' you cannot pass through it, and if you do, we shall > consider you to be 'trespassers'...' or something to that effect, I > would have been spoken as much against such a declaration, as I do > today against the SASB and its partisans. In fact, the people of > Kashmir, including those who have agitated against the land transfer, > have reiterated time and again that they seek to maintain the highest > standards of hospitality towards who pass through Kashmir on their > way to Amarnath. It is only the protagonists of the SASB, such as our > own Pawan Durani, who have no compunction in insulting that > generosity by invoking the language of trespass.> > And no, I do not believe that the restrictions that limit movement on > the night of 25th or the 26th of January are moral. I hold them to be > deeply immoral. And I also do not believe that there should be > borders, or barbed wire fences along borders. I guess that makes me a > trespasser. But it makes me a trespasser who has the wherewithal to > buttress my words and my beliefs with a sustainable argument. Like > many of those who invoke the law of trespass against the passage of > common people, Pawan Durani has no ethical, or reasoned argument, all > he has behind him is the brutal and immoral might of the Indian state.> > I might be basing my arguments on the basis of reports on what Pawan > Durani characterizes as "Anti-Nationalist and Islamist" newspapers > such as Greater Kashmir and Rising Kashmir. (Incidentally, They are > neither "Anti Nationalist", nor do I see in them any consistently > "Islamist" traces. They are not "anti-nationalist" because they are > clearly sympathetic to one or the other variety of Kashmiri > Nationalism. I am no doubt, an anti-nationalist, because I believe > that all forms of nationalism, including Kashmiri nationalism, are > ultimately detrimental to human beings, but it would be unfair to > confuse me with the sources I am quoting) But whatever be the case, > the instances I am quoting involve quotes from Kashmiri Pandit and > non-Muslim individuals who cannot on any grounds be considered > either "Anit-Nationalist", or "Islamist" (They have not said they are > either, and we cannot accuse people of holding political positions > that they have themselves refrained from upholding). The statements > that they have made, and which I have quoted, can be either > disproven, which would be the case if it were shown that these people > did not say these things, or they can be verified. They cannot be > considered unacceptable merely because the newspaper that reported > them is not of the same Ideological persuasion as Pawan Durani.> > In my last posting, I had offered the possibility of considering > Pawan Durani either as a fool or as a charlatan, based on a my > assessment of his demonstrated ability to hold a sustained argument. > This meant, that in my opinion, he either did not have the > intelligence to hold on to a sustained argument by reasonable means > (hence, fool), or cared not to, and was intent on misleading us with > his malafide postings (hence, charlatan). This reasoning was entirely > based on the form and substance of his argument. I would like to > known on what basis Mr.Durani has the impertinence to call me a 'neo- > convert'. What dose he think I have 'converted' and that too, newly, > to? How can he even think he knows what transpires in my conscience, > or what he calls my 'heart' especially when, not a single argument > offered by me is based on any question of faith, emotion or sentiment.> > I have revised my opinion about Pawan Durani, he is clearly not a > fool. He is using what Tapas Ray has referred to in his recent post > as - 'human tragedies' - for all that they are worth in order to > buttress a morally, ethically, rationally weak position, with enough > skill not to warrant being mistaken for a fool. That leaves only one > possibility.> > regards> > Shuddha> > > Dear Shuddha,> > It is very obvious of what way you want the discussion to end up. > > Let me> > just share with readers some example.> >> > 1. Instead of replying to my post , Mr Shuddha changes the subject to> > :Noorani Reads the fine print on Amarnath Accord", while as the > > original> > subject line was "What A.G.Noorani did not tell you".This is the first> > impression to understand of how fair Shuddha would have been to > > understand> > my write up, and Shuddha lived upto his reputation for > > that ....perfectly.> >> > 2.When I say that every state subject has an equal right to every > > inch of> > land , that does not mean to buy a piece of land in Srinagar a > > Ladakhi would> > have to go to Assembly to get an order passed. Mr Shuddhas > > understanding of> > the sentence is very poor and childish.> >> > 3.Shuddha is not aware of who lives in Baltal ? His understanding > > of the> > area is based on his passionate reading of anti nationalist and > > Islamist> > newspaper like Greater Kashmir and Rising Kashmir. Incidentally rising> > Kashmir was inaugurated by Noorani himself. What a coincidence.> >> > 4.Shuddha again ignores the report of chief Wildlife warden on > > allotment of> > land and like a "parrot" repeats the Hurriyat language. And if this > > is how> > Shuddha loves to debate without even acknowledging the report of > > those who> > are in-charge of ecology and wildlife in the Baltal area , I wonder > > no one> > would be able to satisfy his brain,which seems to be locked for any> > reasoning.> >> > 5. What Nitish Sen Gupta had wanted on priority is that on high > > grounds the> > number of pilgrims should be restricted to 20000.> >> > 6. Shuddha quotes that KPSS or Sanjay Tikoo wanted his > > participation. What> > Shuddha does not share that Sanjay Tikoo, who happens to be a close > > friend,> > is no less a hostage to the separatists. He has to tow their line. > > I would> > not discuss this issue in detail as this may cause harm to my already> > scared community members in Kashmir. Issue like this needs a > > broader vision> > which morons like Shuddha and Gautam Navlakha can not understand.> >> > 7. When I was discussing the fundamental right , I wrote " The > > right to> > Equality " which Shuddha very cunningly altered to "Fundamental > > right to> > Movement" ... It was so clever of him to change the whole context > > and to> > ignore the expected discussion of how the 100 crore citizens of > > India are> > being denied the right to be equal as against the state subjects of > > J&K> > state. And let me remind to Mr Shuddha that neither is whole of J&K > > a tribal> > place nor a forest.> >> > 8. Shuddha gives a very childish and immature rhetoric statement > > that the> > Amarnath accord violate the fundamental right to movement > > guaranteed under> > Article 19 (A) of the Indian Constitution. Does that mean> > that trespassing is no word to exist. Does that mean that I can > > stroll on> > India gate lawns on night between 25th and 26th January. Does that > > mean I> > can stand right next to barbed wire fence on the border? Does that > > mean I> > can ride my bicycle on the runway of an airport. Shuddha has no > > understand> > of where the violation applies and where not ?> >> > 9.Mr Shuddha may call me a fool or a charlatan. It does not matter > > to me . I> > know where his heart lies and what the Neo convert believes in.> >> > Pawan Durani> > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Movies, sports & news! Get your daily entertainment fix, only on live.com http://www.live.com/?scope=video&form=MICOAL From rohitism at gmail.com Mon Sep 8 10:28:52 2008 From: rohitism at gmail.com (Rohit Shetti) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 10:28:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions In-Reply-To: <780263.77333.qm@web31809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <780263.77333.qm@web31809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Ishwar, If I understood Aarti's mail correctly, I do not think she was questioning the validity of the cause of hurt, she was infact acknowledging that there are various reasons of getting hurt and then giving some ideas of what we could do with it. Now, I would like to ask you whether you justify the effects to the causes that you are connecting it to? All these 'effects' are due to lack of wisdom and nobody but the fanatical can justify them. There is indeed distinction between cause and effect, but it is not rocket-science to understand what must be decried. Rohit On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 6:25 PM, Ishwar wrote: > Dear Inder, > > Let me get this clear. I'm very strongly against ever-increasing cases of > religious intolerance, and as an atheist, Hussain's or Nasreen's expressions > do not offend me the least. My question was purely theoretical. > > I request you to note the differences between cause and effect - Hurt is > the cause, and Babri Masjid demolition, Taslima Nasreen, Danish Cartoon, > Hussain episodes are effects. What is it that you wish to decry? The cause? > the effect? both? > > My initial reply to Aarti's mail was, from a theoretical standpoint, to her > questioning the validity of the cause, the 'hurt', and I believe that, given > the frameworks in consideration, particularly the differences, hurt is > understandable, and the statement "Everybody gets hurt" doesn't quite apply > because the religious frameworks clearly place divine rights over > individual's rights. Is it your claim that all religious frameworks stop > doing that? > > How does one react to such incidents, I have no clue. Protests, I'd guess. > Attempts a dialogue to bridge the gaps, probably. > > The effects of this cause can be peaceful, a dialogue in an utopian world. > Effects, like such incidents, however are something that every person who > believes in individual's liberties must fight against. If you don't believe > in this distinction between cause and effect, and understanding the reasons > behind one, while rejecting the other, I withdraw my case. > > > -- > Regards, > Ishwar > > > Just another resurrected Neozoic Archosaur comics. > http://www.flickr.com/photos/mojosaurus/sets/72157600257724083/ > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: inder salim > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Sunday, September 7, 2008 3:20:43 PM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions > > Dear Yousf, > > Let us keep it simple. > > I should have used the word ' unwittingly' instead 'boldly' and that > might have saved you from writing " I am the last person on earth to > condemn artists for having monopoly on liberalism ". I know you are > not against artists, and I consider you too an artist in your own > unique way. > > Now you are looking for an alternative, right, take a case like Babri > Masjid. The Sang Parivar thought that their sentiments are 'hurt' > because a king demolished a temple and constructed a mosque on the > same spot. I am not speaking on behalf of Muslims, but on behalf of > Liberals, ( as it is convenient to use ) that the mosque should not > have been demolished. But the monopoly on 'hurt' scored and we > witnessed a monumental tragedy. what was the alternative? > > There are hundreds of other such examples where this kind of 'hurt' > scored and we are reduced to mute spectators. A government, based on > a secular constitution should not have given in to this so called > 'hurt'. That is my premise. Recently there was an attack on a very > small exhibition of prints by Hussain organized by Sahmat. These are > not simple hooligans but are from a strong political base with an > agenda, to create a panic. They were so daring that they even called > the TV channels to document their action. How to denounce that, May be > Mr. Ishwar has an answer, People should be told simply that ' freedom > of expression' is as important to life as water, food and sleep. > Recently, an Italian museum rejected the Pope's desire to remove a > frog- Christ sculpture from their display. There was no hue and cry > from Christians world. We need to learn from those examples. What is > so big about a cartoon. Cartoons are made to bring humour in our lives > and not hate. We need to cultivate an accurate sense of 'hurt'. It is > time we feel hurt because of immense environmental degradation on our > planet. We should be ashamed of our acts against women. We should > feel 'hurt' on seeing people begging on the streets. > > Any answer Mr. Iswar, why Taslima Nasreen was hounded out of Inidia. > Both Hussain and Taslima are known for their inaccurate works, but > have found a huge support from artists , poets writers and other such > segments of our society. are we insane that we support a Taslima and > a Hussain, a Chandra Mohan from time to time. We are, indeed a small > segment of our society, and if we all don't support this minority > within the minority then what we have is complete absence of > alternative. Is that what you want for the sake of a ' majority'. > > Who is afraid of Artists, poets, and dancers? Hussain sahib was once > a Rajya Sahba member, and all he did there was drawings of politicians > arguing in the parliament. I wish he had drawn them masturbating > during sessions. He is less courageous, we all know, but in any > case, is he a threat to our society, or someone who announces monetary > awards to behead the artist or a writer? Opposing 'freedom of > expression' is not a 'view point' but a bully. > > Of course, artists and poets love audiences, without audiences there > is not art and culture, but how come we oppose a change of taste even. > Haven't people clapped to something fresh, new and radical, even on > the stage when politicians play it out like actors on the stage. > People want change, but 'some of well read persons' want to keep us > unchanged. Even now we have very few women poets, let alone the past > when there were little chances for them to come forward. Males of the > family and society were often hurt as and when their daughters would > come out in the open. Is it a view point ? We are all here for a > change. Let us support the change. Prophets and saints too have been > poets in their own unique ways who have always uttered verse with > freshness of mood and change. But we simply become worshippers of that > change, and obstruct the possibility of change 'unwittingly' > > Yes, millions go the Haridwar for a sacred dip. But, I guess the dip > becomes a very small component of the journey to a pilgrimage . The > spectacle of a concentrated human mass is what attracts the people. > The urge to brush shoulders with others, new clothes, picnic and > exchange of looks with strangers is what seduces the average Indian. > that is true, because the pollution level in Ganga does not 'hurt' > them in the first place, which proves they are not too serious about > the holdy dip. > Who is truly religious? The same applies to people who go to Haj. > > With love > is > > > > > > On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 10:13 AM, Ishwar wrote: > > Guess I wasn't clear enough in what I intended to convey, and lack of > clarity always invites misinterpretation. > > > > Inder, what made you come to the conclusion that understanding hurt > sentiments in religious and other frameworks is tantamount to declaring > support for fundamentalism? For that matter, when did understanding anything > equated to supporting it? > > > > As an artist, can I assume that your work would not be received with > enthusiasm from every section of the population? That being the case. I > think it's vital to understand that the religious communities' hurt comes > from something that's fundamental to their current framework, in the local > context. Saying 'Dude, everybody gets hurt, so chill' is not quite the > answer. > > > > After respecting the reasoning behind the hate, one might choose to work > towards a conversation. I find the comment 'how to > > denounce entire majority of religous world who have mononly on 'hurt'"' > rather strange. We aren't here to denounce viewpoints are we? I'd thought > certain actions are to be denounced, not word views. If that's not the case, > how is liberalism any different from religion, the very majority we seek to > denounce? > > > > > > P.S: Pardon my ignorance of keywords to express ideas. > > > > Ishwar > > > > > > Just another resurrected Neozoic Archosaur comics. > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/mojosaurus/sets/72157600257724083/ > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: inder salim > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > Sent: Saturday, September 6, 2008 9:50:56 PM > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions > > > > Dear Yousuf > > this is too sweeping a statement by a well read person like you. > > > > this also gives us a clue - how often well read people quickly throw > > reasoning to dust bins and join hands with those who boldy declare > > 'fundamentalsim' as their guiding light on the path of spirituality. > > if we condemn artists for having monoply on 'liberalism' then how to > > denounce entire majority of religous world who have mononly on 'hurt' > > ? Our sufi bhakti traditions were much liberal in their ' ways of > > living' than what you consider as offensive. > > > > this also teachs me that we are basically too small to speak anything > > truely about these overwhelming issues through these short cut > > discussions, > > > > Here, i think of paintings, poetry, music dance ( al erotic, sacred > > and profane ) and all the eccentric moods of our society, even if ' > > well read people' consider it just an entertainment for artists > > themselves, and couple of few others in the world. > > > > We are in a serious trouble. or only I ( artist ) feel it ? > > > > love > > is > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > From vivek at sarai.net Mon Sep 8 11:58:16 2008 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 11:58:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] information on lunatics of the border areas Message-ID: <48C4C600.2000108@sarai.net> Hi all, Going through some old notebooks this morning, I found that I had clipped this improbable story, almost certainly a plant, but a bizarre one, from The Hindu of June 2002. Of course, it reminded me of Manto's Toba Tek Singh. I was wondering if anyone on this list had heard anything more about this story, or about where it might have come from? Thanks Vivek http://www.hinduonnet.com/2002/06/03/stories/2002060301791200.htm Rise in number of 'lunatics'in border areas Sriganganagar (Rajasthan) June 2. A sudden increase in the number of lunatics in the border areas is causing concern to the district administration, which is keeping a close watch on the ``new phenomenon'' amid reports of Pakistani sleuths being drugged and pushed into India, a top official said. The District Collector, Ram Avtar, told reporters here today that ``there have been reports that Pakistani spies, injected with some kinds of drugs, are being pushed into India''. Under the influence of the drugs they behaved like lunatics for about a fortnight and did not arouse suspicion. After the effect of the drug wore out, they would mix with the local population to fulfil their assigned mission. He said orders had been issued to keep a strict vigil on lunatics being brought to hospitals in the border areas and ticketless travellers. The Collector said the administration had also taken several measures to meet any eventuality in the wake of heightened tensions on the border . — PTI From krititeam at bol.net.in Sat Sep 6 16:54:55 2008 From: krititeam at bol.net.in (kriti team (back up)) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 16:54:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Greetings from Kriti DOCUSHOP: September 2008 Message-ID: <009d01c91013$30700300$3700a8c0@space1> Apologies for cross-posting! Dear friends Greetings! Our monthly mailer comes to you with important dates for your calender, do share other dates that we may have missed so we can add those to our list: 8 International Literacy Day 21 International Peace Day 28 Shankar Guha Niyogi Martyrdom Day We share a selected list of information and communication resources with you in this mailer, details of which can be seen on the blog. Several other titles also available, write in with your orders! This month we have several events lined up from film screenings to a panel discussion and music, dance and martial arts festival titled 'Interpretations on Peace and Conflict', here in New Delhi. Do visit http://krititeam.blogspot.com for more! We welcome your requests and feedback, so that we can respond to make this process of sharing more useful. warm wishes for the month Kritians Books A Prophet Facing Forward By Meera Nanda / Critical Quest / New Delhi/ 2006 Contribution: Rs.20.00 Accords, peace processes and prospects of civil society peace initiatives By North East Peoples' Initiative /Guwahati / 2007 Contribution: Rs.100.00 Child slaves in modern India By Lee Tucker / Critical Quest / New Delhi/ 2006 Contribution: Rs.30.00 Free to be human By David Edwards /The Viveka Foundation/ New Delhi/ 2002 Contribution: Rs.200.00 1000 Peace Women Across the Globe By Ruth- Gaby Vermot- Mangold / KONTRAST book /Switzerland/ 2005 Contribution: Rs.1500.00 Manifestos for making another world possible! By CACIM / Vikas Adhanyan Kendra/ New Delhi/ 2004 Contribution: Rs.100.00 Nandigram- What Really Happened ? 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His latest work, "A Play of Flows" premiers on October 23, 2008 at the Galleria Mazzini in Genoa, Italy. Talman was awarded a Guggenheim Foundation Fellowship in Sound Art in 2006 and was a recipient of the New York Foundation for the Arts Award in Computer Arts in 2003. He currently resides in Manhattan. Due to the nature of his pieces, Talman does not provide sound samples on his website - the pieces are simply too site-specific to experience in any other way than first-hand. As such, we will only be providing photos and discussion with this interview. Peter Traub: Before you began creating sound installations in the mid 1990s, you were a more 'traditional' computer music composer and musician. Could you discuss how you made the transition into sound installation work? Was there a particular experience of a space or place that pushed you in this new direction? Jeff Talman: First, let me thank you very much for your interest in my work and this opportunity to go into your well-thought through questions. Many thanks also to Networked Music Review and Helen Thorington and Jo-Anne Green. I've found that interviews can really help tremendously because they put me as an artist outside of myself, so new or different slants to the work may become available. It's is a very welcome kind of refreshment. Read more: http://tinyurl.com/5hqygw In case you haven't visited the site recently, don't miss Peter Traub's interview with Karen Van Lengen (http://tinyurl.com/5rx4hc). All of the Networked_Music_Review Interviews can be found here: http://turbulence.org/networked_music_review/tags/interview/ Jo-Anne Green, Co-Director New Radio and Performing Arts, Inc.: http://new-radio.org New York: 917.548.7780 . Boston: 617.522.3856 Turbulence: http://turbulence.org Networked_Performance Blog: http://turbulence.org/blog Networked_Music_Review: http://turbulence.org/networked_music_review Upgrade! Boston: http://turbulence.org/upgrade New American Radio: http://somewhere.org _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From markcmarino at gmail.com Mon Sep 8 10:55:19 2008 From: markcmarino at gmail.com (Mark Marino) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 21:25:19 -0800 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?=5BAnnouncements=5D_Electronic_Lit?= =?windows-1252?q?erature_Collection=2C_Vol=2E_2_=97_Call_for_Work_?= =?windows-1252?q?=289/30/08=29?= Message-ID: <287213f30809072225n78d19d5ej22a4571011773023@mail.gmail.com> Resending this call as a reminder. Please help circulate! Best, Mark Electronic Literature Collection, Vol. 2 — Call for Work (9/30/08) The Electronic Literature Organization seeks submissions for the Electronic Literature Collection, volume 2. We invite the submission of literary works that take advantage of the capabilities and contexts provided by the computer. Works will be accepted from June 1 to September 30, 2008. Up to three works per author will be considered; previously published works will be considered. The Electronic Literature Collection is a biannual publication of current and older electronic literature in a form suitable for individual, public library, and classroom use. Volume 1, presently available both online (http://collection.eliterature.org) and as a packaged, cross-platform CD-ROM, has been used in dozens of courses at universities in the United States and internationally, and has been widely reviewed in the United States and Europe. It is also available as a CD-ROM insert with N. Katherine Hayles' full-length study, Electronic Literature: New Horizons for the Literary (University of Notre Dame Press, 2008). Volume 2, comprising approximately 50 works, will likewise be available online, and as a cross-platform DVD in a case appropriate for library processing, marking, and distribution. The contents of the Collection are offered under a Creative Commons license so that libraries and educational institutions will be allowed to duplicate and install works and individuals will be free to share the disc with others. The editorial collective for the second volume of the Electronic Literature Collection, to be published in 2009, is Laura Borràs Castanyer, Talan Memmott, Rita Raley and Brian Kim Stefans. This collective will review the submitted work and select pieces for the Collection. Literary quality will be the chief criterion for selection of works. Other aspects considered will include innovative use of electronic techniques, quality and navigability of interface, and adequate representation of the diverse forms of electronic literature in the collection as a whole. For volume 2, we are considering works of electronic literature in video. Works submitted should function on both Macintosh OS X (10.5) and Windows Vista. Works should function without requiring users to purchase or install additional software. Submissions may require software that is typically pre-installed on contemporary computers, such as a web browser, and are allowed to use the current versions of the most common plugins. To have a work considered, all the authors of the work must agree that if their work is published in the Collection, they will license it under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs 3.0 License, which will permit others to copy and freely redistribute the work, provided the work is attributed to its authors, that it is redistributed non-commercially, and that it is not used in the creation of derivative works. No other limitation is made regarding the author's use of any work submitted or accepted. To submit a work, prepare a plain text file with the following information: * The title of the work. * The names and email addresses of all authors and contributors of the work. * The URL where you are going to make your .zip file available for us to download. The editorial collective will not publish the address of this file. * A short description of the work — less than 200 words in length. * Any instructions required to operate the work. * The date the work was first distributed or published, or "unpublished" if it has not yet been made available to the public. Prepare a .zip archive including the work in its entirety. Include the text file at the top level of this archive, and name it "submisson.txt". Upload the .zip file to a web server so that it is available at the specified location. Place all of the text in the "submisson.txt" file in the body of an email and send it to elc2.elo at gmail.com with the name of the piece being submitted included in the subject line. The Electronic Literature Collection is supported by institutional partners including: Brown University, Literary Arts Program; Center for Program in Contemporary Writing at the University of Pennsylvania; Duke University, Program in Literature; Hermeneia at the Open University of Catalonia; Maryland Institute for Technology in the Humanities; Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Program in Writing and Humanistic Studies; nt2; Pomona College, Media Studies Program;UCSB, Department of English; University of Bergen, Department of Literary, Linguistic, and Aesthetic Studies, Program in Digital Culture; University of Dundee, School of Humanities. Institutional sponsorship opportunities are still available. If your organization or academic department is interested in more information, please contact Helen DeVinney, Managing Director of the ELO, at hdevinney at gmail.com. Mark Marino, ELO. Director of Communication http://eliterature.org _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From virtuallyme at gmail.com Mon Sep 8 12:37:00 2008 From: virtuallyme at gmail.com (Rohan DSouza) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 12:37:00 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?Cracking_down_on_=91violations_of_?= =?windows-1252?q?moral_code=92_in_Dakshina_Kannada?= Message-ID: <79e82f610809080007q1f894ef1xac7d81ed66c2decd@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, This particular article on the front page of yesterday's Bangalore edition of the Hindu, caught my attention. This was for various reasons, the main one being of complete disgust in the way in which people from different communities are being forced not to interact with each other in the Dakshina Kannada district of Karnataka. When reading the report carefully, one also notices with some intrigue, two of the bed fellows of this moral brigade, ie, the right wing militant Bajrang Dal and Social Action Committee, a Christian organisation. While the Bajrang Dal is known to specifically target members of the Christian community in other parts of India, (the recent attacks in Orissa come to mind), in the instances mentioned here there is an actual coming together of interests and corresponding action, of these organisations claiming to represent the two communities. While I subscribe to the fact that the Bajrang Dal and the Social Action Committee cannot be seen as sole representatives of Hindu and Christian interests, it will still be worth looking at the social situation in this region, which could tolerate something like this. The Mangalorean Christian (Roman Catholic) community have been supporters of the Sangh organisations, especially the BJP. This seems to stem from the notion of their Brahmanical past (pre-conversion by the Portugese) as well as present, within the Christian community set up. Casteist (Hindu & Chrisitian in this case) feelings and bonds based on this seem to have superceded differences of religion here! Incidentally, similar notions of Brahmanical ancestry and superiority can also observed among the Syrian Christian community in neighbouring Kerala. The coming together of the Hindu and the Chrisitian community, as far as aggressively expressing their political, social and moral preferences in this region, have ensured members of both communities dont interact with Muslims. This seeems to be designed to polarise and communalise the region (the Gujarat model, that CM Yediyurappa fawns over, in action?). The members (ex?) of the Islamic organisation, Karnataka Forum for Dignity, also seem to be playing along with this polarisation. The result of which will probably be a splintered social situation, with the Hindus and Christians on one side of the divide and the Muslims on the other. This has earlier led to riots in this region and one can surely expect more. Taking advantaged of sentiments, emotions, based on actions, reactions and counter actions, seems to be the modus operandi of the three organisations mentioned in the article. Being distant as well as close, geographically and genetically, to Dakshina Kannada, has made me want to comment on this. However, this may be an incomplete reading of the situation. Therefore would welcome comments, thoughts on this. Regards, Rohan http://www.hindu.com/2008/09/07/stories/2008090750160100.htm *Cracking down on 'violations of moral code' in Dakshina Kannada * Sudipto Mondal * In most cases, young men and women have been targeted * — file Photo: K.R. Deepak * Watched: Young people such as these have become victims of the vigorously enforced 'moral code' in Dakshina Kannada. * MANGALORE: Self-appointed vigilante groups are cracking down on those "violating the moral code" in Dakshina Kannada district. Records with the district police that *The Hindu *had access to show that since the third week of July there have been 10 instances of these groups punishing individuals whom they perceived as having violated the moral code. Hindutva organisations such as the Bajrang Dal, a Christian organisation Social Action Committee, as well as certain individuals who were formerly with the Karnataka Forum for Dignity (KFD), have been involved in these incidents. In most of the incidents the groups have targeted young men and women from different communities who were interacting with each other. In one case, a young woman was attacked because she went to the house of a young woman from a different community. The Bajrang Dal has claimed responsibility for seven of these incidents. *, *The district head of the organisation, Sudarshan Moodabidri, claimed that the outfit had "solved" over 200 cases in the last two months where Hindus were "caught" committing the "immoral" act of interacting with members of other communities. Mr. Moodabidri said, "Sometimes it becomes necessary to use force. Fear of such action should deter such misadventures. Girls reform themselves once they are thrashed and humiliated in public, but boys are tougher to control." The Social Action Committee carried out a "joint operation" with Bajrang Dal activists in the city in one instance. "We will carry out more such strikes," its president Deepak D'Mello told *The Hindu*. Former activists of the KFD have been linked to two such cases. The organisation's president Abdul Aziz said that the acts were committed by delinquent members and distanced KFD from the issue. He confirmed that the organisation was against inter-community relationships but was averse to using force. The latest incident occurred on September 2 at Vittla in Bantwal taluk where activists of the Bajrang Dal assaulted a couple, Roopashree and Vikhar Ahmed, and paraded them in public. The same afternoon, over 60 km away in Puttur taluk, Bajrang Dal activists stormed the house of Ayesha as her friend Divya was visiting her. On September 1, Sugandhi and her three friends, Raghav, Anil and Rasheed, were assaulted by Bajrang Dal activists when they were at a hotel in the heart of Mangalore city. On August 24, Deepa and her fiancé Abdul Waheed were dragged out of a bus at a junction in the city and assaulted by Bajrang Dal activists. On the afternoon of August 23, Bajrang Dal activists assaulted and abused classmates Julia, Robert, Waheed, Abdul and Sunil because they were found laughing and talking loudly in a public place. On August 22, activists of the Bajrang Dal and the Social Action Committee carried out the "joint operation" against Mohammed and his classmate Catherine. On August 18, activists claiming to be from the KFD assaulted Dinesh and his friend Afshan at a remote village 25 km from the city. They were assaulted because Dinesh had brought medicines for Afshan who was suffering from malaria. On August 8, activists of the Bajrang Dal assaulted Syed, Zulfikar and Ameen with soda bottles and hooks in a bus in the heart of the city because they had carried school bags belonging to a group of Hindu girls. On July 27, activists claiming to be from the KFD attacked Govind, an autorickshaw driver at a village over 25 km from Mangalore because he often ferried his neighbours Uzma and Shaheen in his auto. On July 16, Rehman was heard talking and laughing loudly at a public place with his two friends Uma and Bhavya. They were assaulted and abused by Bajrang Dal activists. Superintendent of Police N. Sateesh Kumar said, "This is a social issue. Resistance to such divisive forces should come from within the community. In cases where there have been assaults we have taken the necessary action." (Names of the victims have been changed to protect their identity) From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Mon Sep 8 12:47:24 2008 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 12:47:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] CHENGARA LAND STRUGGLE solidarity programme in Delhi Message-ID: <35f96d470809080017q2e829d78g3d87c8ff77f4702f@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: JAGAR Uttrakhand Zindabad!!! this is Video Docu.of the Kerala House protest on Chengara... http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZn-atXEd20 Regards, Prem Piram -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: message-footer.txt Url: http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/attachments/20080908/1da198ff/attachment.txt From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Mon Sep 8 13:09:22 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 13:39:22 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Migrant Workers: Narratives of Destination, Denial & Class Message-ID: http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2008/09/08/migrant-class/ Migrant Workers: Narratives of Destination, Denial & Class NEW AGE, September 8, 2008 There is very little that the government doesn't know about how the sector is run and there is very little that the powers that be have done in the past for the poor workers because they are the ones who are running the show. To reform the sector would mean going against the best interest of the ruling class, writes Afsan Chowdhury NOTHING describes better the nature of our state than the fact that while we crow over the high dollar reserve generated by our guest workers, we obstinately refuse to do anything serious about the conditions of the people working in great difficulties and pain while sending money home. It is strange that the three economic sectors that keep Bangladesh afloat have seen high levels of economic distress as far as the workers are concerned. The narrative of the garments sector is well known and for the last three decades it has made many rich and turned the workers into a drill machine working for unacceptable wages and benefits. The obligation to innovate lies largely with the owners who seem to have singularly failed to take the sector forward beyond sweatshop status and investment in workers is negligent because they are many and replaceable. The frozen food industry has one of the worst records of environmental hazard and its role in accentuating disasters including destruction of sweet-water sources have been documented extensively. More significantly, the sector has formalised the idea that it is OK to destroy nature if it brings money. The largest of course in Bangladesh is the remittance economy sector and this year in particular, it has exposed both the contribution of the workers and the sorry treatment they get from their employers abroad. The lack of will and ability of the authorities to act in their favour displays how disposable the workers have become. This inertia of the authorities is probably a statement of the position of the authorities. It is reaching a point where one must start conceiving plans for protection against government (in)actions and proximity to those who are responsible for their denial of rights. Narratives of destinations, denial and class Some of the facts about migrant workers are well known and easily forgotten. In the esteemed narrative of 1971, the migrant worker is now imagined as an outsider finding space through its contributions to the independence effort though without their support the international movement for Bangladesh would never have taken off. Historically, those who went away are thought of having done so after failing to reach their socio-economic goal. The stigma of migration is very strong in our society, especially when it comes to guest working in the Middle East, Malaysia and similar places. Migration is driven by economic ability, social connection and family condition. Hence, the broad use of the term may hide the social contradictions within. Almost everyone migrates in one form or the other in the interest of livelihood and other concerns. Possibly, the largest number of migrants crosses the next door border to India and become part of that country's bottom end of the underground economy. They generally join the domestic aide, rag picking and also prostitution among the several desperate professions they can enter. Those who go to India come from the poorest class and are brothers of the migrants from many devastated parts of Bangladesh who flock to Dhaka in a bid to survive. As this migration is the least costly, and the least economically lucrative, India attracts the poorest. As they don't compete in the Indian job market, they are left alone except in the troubled North East and Mumbai because they are thought to constitute a political disturbance or a threat. India has been actively fencing and patrolling the borders to shut this down though this cohort has still managed to go. One goes to India when there is no other place to go. The second destination of migrants is the Middle East and Malaysia. Here the social identity of the people choosing to go there splits into various classes, make this narrative more complex. The Middle East attracts both kinds of people, from the workers to the engineers, doctors and other professionals. The experiences vary widely. The workers lead a precarious existence, unable to negotiate their entry, their salaries, their security, benefits, etc from their employers and suffer hugely. The fact that most of them may have suffered a great deal at home just to reach here, in many cases cheated out of their family savings, threatening the fragile security of the family in general, points to a curious disconnect between the experiences of the workers and the professionals. There are hardly any references to the plight of the professionals who go there. It is true they are also hard pressed in several sectors and often face difficulties in migration, remittance and other areas but in the end, they have a much better life and their problems often mirror the issues they might have faced if they were at home. The situation in the Middle East and Malaysia are horror stories for the less endowed and both zones of guest working are destinations of severe denials of rights and access to normal compensation for work for the poor. The third destination is the West where the most resourced are moving to and many are also buying their socio-economic identity with money earned at home. This destination is generally shut for the poor class, and the middle and upper class migrants reach there. These places – the US, the UK, Canada, etc – have also become destinations for the second migration of the residential variety for many professionals in the Middle East and elsewhere. Hence their status and character are different from the working class migrants in the Middle East or Malaysia. However, since 9/11 many illegal middle and lesser class migrants in the US have started to flock to Canada where anti-Muslim bias is low and social pressure against racial profiling exists. Still, the traffic towards the US remains high and possibly the highest intake amongst the Western countries is still the US. The conclusion is inescapable that the present extreme and visible crisis is the result not just of incompetence and lethargy of the authorities which extend to all sectors but also expresses the class attitude of the state. There is very little that the government doesn't know about how the sector is run and there is very little that the powers that be have done in the past for the poor workers because they are the ones who are running the show. To reform the sector would mean going against the best interest of the ruling class. A contest of will and the need to challenge the status quo Bangladeshis in general suffer from a perplexing and paralytic love of all things which is often translated into their affection for political parties. It is no secret that that a major source of funding for politics comes from the manpower export and garments lobby and it is naïve to think there will be any significant intervention to regulate or regularise the sector as a whole. That literally leaves few options since the government control over the sector is total and between BAIRA, Bangladesh government and the many agents and sub-agents, the chances of a pro-working class set of decisions are remote when it comes to guest working. The only way out could really mean a new alliance that needs to be set up between the affected and intending migrants with strong political intent that are able to contest the existing status quo. This involves a new strategy where the state's monopoly in the sector needs to be challenged and the existing regime of manpower agents need to face competition, best if coming from migrants themselves. Is this possible? Even now, a large number of migrants flow down through family connections and reports suggest that they are the best off. A set of tasks that will enhance the capacity of intending migrants at home before departure and at their place of work abroad is the simple solution. Does seem like a simple solution. The economic strength of the guest working class is very high but that translates only into remittance data and not really advantage for the workers. Yet the figures are startling. According to the IMA Foundation, an activists group which has contested the government and the authorities in their recent work states, 'Contribution of Bangladeshi migrants in sending remittance is double than the dollar earned by readymade garments (RMGs), 5 (five) fold in FDI (foreign direct investment), 7 (seven) fold in overseas development assistance and 8.8 per cent in total GDP.' No economic sector can claim this kind of strength and no sector experiences this kind of denial either. It would seem that the socio-political perception of the workers is roughly the same people have towards the RMG workers who are seen as human mules of burden and work. It has reached a point in Bangladesh where the huge number of poor instead of shaming the establishment makes them more vulnerable to exploitation and their loss of economic opportunities mean they are easily replaceable. It is the face of Bangladesh we think we don't have. From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Mon Sep 8 13:46:05 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 13:46:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Delhi University gets ABVP president after 8 years/ reader-list Digest, Vol 62, Issue 35. In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70809061445o3ca898b3g29ef85e24d212c18@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00809061411t758f471cq8ba213c5ee2608c9@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70809061419u4afae77yfefb2f36f721ebe8@mail.gmail.com> <98f331e00809061441h51ad1444pe7a632e2f8d722e7@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70809061445o3ca898b3g29ef85e24d212c18@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690809080116q6d0c75c1vc3e2c2482a3e9775@mail.gmail.com> Pawan, Everybody knows that United Students contested the elections in 2006 and came out third with 4,300 votes after NSUI and ABVP. This surely does not make our communist brothers of SFI/AISA etc. happy. I don't understand why at all they fight elections as they hardly have any support in the campus. Anyways, I respect democracy. Prakash bhai, I don't understand why a news item made you scream at the top of your voice. Is something behind this ? Anyways, Yes United Students was formed in 2006 but only after we successfully campaigned for Jessica Lall and Priyadarshini Mattoo to get Justice. In April 2006, we were the first in India to speak out against Case Based Politics and caste based reservations. Now, if you support this; it goes on to show who actually is castiest Mr. Ray. We were strongly in favour of Affirmative Action. Our agitation reached every nook and corner of the country and soon the Doctors friends took over and formed Youth For Equality. This surely should pain only those, who are against, progress, against equality, fair justice and education for all. Mr. Ray, Your comments are unfortunate. For your kinf information, United Students still exists and it contested the elections in 2007 and as well this year. Tania Jain from SRCC Economics Hons. was our candidate who did fairly well even though she had no support from Congress, BJP or your CPI (M). Now, coming to your blind allegations. Nupur Sharma who is now the DUSU President is a good friend and an able leader. So, I thought of supporting her. I don't get why it pains you. United Students has been very active in Delhi University for past one year. We have been campaigning against sexual harassment. Its only because of the efforts of our activists that you see strong presence of Police on strategic locations across the University. We also campaigned for relaxation of rates for students who travel from the METRO. This demand is under consideration, but will take time for implementation because of the huge loan India has taken from Japan. I do understand why you are not aware of these silent developments in the university. You are busy instigationg people against few students groups on communal lines and spreading lies. Do you remember Nandigram ? Its very unfortunate. Don't loosen you frustration here this way. It won't result in anything positive. Love Aditya Raj Kaul On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 3:15 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Wouldnt have expetcted anything better from where your address is > !..........you know what I mean. > > On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 3:11 AM, prakash ray wrote: > > > Shri Durani, > > > > Please ask about what is a castiest to Mr Aditya Raj Kaul. I am sure that > > he > > will speak (also open and show) his mind to you despite the dangers of > > taking the brain out in open without medical/surgical support and > > supervision. As far as my definition is concerned, I am not bothering you > > by > > telling it to you. If I tell you this, you will waste your time in > replying > > to it. If needed, I will bother you on another issue on another time. > > > > Prakash > > > > On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 2:49 AM, Pawan Durani > > wrote: > > > > > And Ray Sahib, > > > What is your definition about Casteist ? And as far as Mr Adityaraj > Kauls > > > stand on communalism is concerned ,.I am happy that someone from youth > > > section speaks his mind out at dangers which can engulf the whole > country > > in > > > times to come. > > > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 2:41 AM, prakash ray wrote: > > > > > >> Dear Mr Aditya Raj Kaul, > > >> > > >> I am not at all surprised at your happiness on the victory of ABVP's > > >> presidential candidate in DUSU elections 2008. An activist like you of > a > > >> casteist organization like United Students, a clone of Youth for > > Equality, > > >> will be only happy if a communal organization wins an election. And > your > > >> position on communalism is known to the readers of the list. Those who > > >> have > > >> not heard about the outfit called United Students, I want to tell them > > >> that > > >> this anti-reservation entity was formed in 2006 alongwith notorious > > Youth > > >> for Equality to oppose reservation in the educational institution. > > United > > >> Students contested DUSU elections in 2006 and 2007 and for better, it > > does > > >> not exist anymore. Mr Aditya Raj Kaul led a delegation of United > > Students > > >> to > > >> the President of India on May 4, 2006 to oppose the reservations. > > >> Interestingly, he is elated at the ABVP's victory after contesting > > against > > >> it for two years. I am sure that he and his fellow > anti-reservationists > > >> worked for ABVP this time which 'supported' reservations. Will Mr Kaul > > >> explain the deal between these two outfits? As far as the DUSU results > > are > > >> concerned, it is another issue to be talked seperately. > > >> > > >> Prakash > > >> _________________________________________ > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Prakash K Ray > > 225, Sutlej, JNU, New Delhi-110067. > > cinemela.blogspot.com > > (0) 9873313315 > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Mon Sep 8 14:45:00 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 14:15:00 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?Cracking_down_on_=91violations_of_?= =?windows-1252?q?moral_code=92_in_Dakshina_Kannada?= In-Reply-To: <79e82f610809080007q1f894ef1xac7d81ed66c2decd@mail.gmail.com> References: <79e82f610809080007q1f894ef1xac7d81ed66c2decd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Rohan, your concern seems quite genuine that the yout in various faith groups are being targetted by moral police, but issue is more complex than one can imagine. rapid developments in the coastal area, the ob opportunities with good education, thanks to christian institutions and life styles of the youth have given rise to socially relaxed approach to "relationships." Unfortunately, the responsibilty to have a decent recent relationship ending in cohabitation or marriage has become mirage, and these relationships when end on sour note, the mushroomed "hospitals" have a big role in abortions in the cases is also to be noted, then girl married off to some distant plae is not uncommon. The moral values and ethics, to be inculcated by parents, then teachers and the society is in stark contrast, as youth is more exposed to tv serial culture of live-in and being modern seems to be in thing. The nett result of all this is , one more factor, the economic independence that has come with good job opportunities to the youth, who do not hesitate to use the economic freedom on moral license to be free, thus raising question marks of accepted social standards of life. ? Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Rohan DSouza Date: Monday, September 8, 2008 12:37 pm Subject: [Reader-list] Cracking down on ‘violations of moral code’ in Dakshina Kannada To: reader-list at sarai.net > Dear All, > > This particular article on the front page of yesterday's Bangalore > editionof the Hindu, caught my attention. This was for various > reasons, the main > one being of complete disgust in the way in which people from > differentcommunities are being forced not to interact with each > other in the Dakshina > Kannada district of Karnataka. > > When reading the report carefully, one also notices with some > intrigue, two > of the bed fellows of this moral brigade, ie, the right wing militant > Bajrang Dal and Social Action Committee, a Christian organisation. > While the > Bajrang Dal is known to specifically target members of the Christian > community in other parts of India, (the recent attacks in Orissa > come to > mind), in the instances mentioned here there is an actual coming > together of > interests and corresponding action, of these organisations > claiming to > represent the two communities. > > While I subscribe to the fact that the Bajrang Dal and the Social > ActionCommittee cannot be seen as sole representatives of Hindu > and Christian > interests, it will still be worth looking at the social situation > in this > region, which could tolerate something like this. The Mangalorean > Christian(Roman Catholic) community have been supporters of the > Sangh organisations, > especially the BJP. This seems to stem from the notion of their > Brahmanicalpast (pre-conversion by the Portugese) as well as > present, within the > Christian community set up. Casteist (Hindu & Chrisitian in this case) > feelings and bonds based on this seem to have superceded > differences of > religion here! Incidentally, similar notions of Brahmanical > ancestry and > superiority can also observed among the Syrian Christian community in > neighbouring Kerala. > > The coming together of the Hindu and the Chrisitian community, as > far as > aggressively expressing their political, social and moral > preferences in > this region, have ensured members of both communities dont > interact with > Muslims. This seeems to be designed to polarise and communalise > the region > (the Gujarat model, that CM Yediyurappa fawns over, in action?). > > The members (ex?) of the Islamic organisation, Karnataka Forum for > Dignity,also seem to be playing along with this polarisation. The > result of which > will probably be a splintered social situation, with the Hindus and > Christians on one side of the divide and the Muslims on the other. > This has > earlier led to riots in this region and one can surely expect more. > > Taking advantaged of sentiments, emotions, based on actions, > reactions and > counter actions, seems to be the modus operandi of the three > organisationsmentioned in the article. > > Being distant as well as close, geographically and genetically, to > DakshinaKannada, has made me want to comment on this. However, > this may be an > incomplete reading of the situation. Therefore would welcome comments, > thoughts on this. > > Regards, > Rohan > > http://www.hindu.com/2008/09/07/stories/2008090750160100.htm > > *Cracking down on 'violations of moral code' in Dakshina Kannada * > SudiptoMondal * In most cases, young men and women have been > targeted * — file > Photo: K.R. Deepak > > * Watched: Young people such as these have become victims of the > vigorouslyenforced 'moral code' in Dakshina Kannada. * > > MANGALORE: Self-appointed vigilante groups are cracking down on those > "violating the moral code" in Dakshina Kannada district. Records > with the > district police that *The Hindu *had access to show that since the > thirdweek of July there have been 10 instances of these groups > punishingindividuals whom they perceived as having violated the > moral code. > > Hindutva organisations such as the Bajrang Dal, a Christian > organisationSocial Action Committee, as well as certain > individuals who were formerly > with the Karnataka Forum for Dignity (KFD), have been involved in > theseincidents. > > In most of the incidents the groups have targeted young men and > women from > different communities who were interacting with each other. In one > case, a > young woman was attacked because she went to the house of a young > woman from > a different community. > > The Bajrang Dal has claimed responsibility for seven of these > incidents. *, > *The district head of the organisation, Sudarshan Moodabidri, > claimed that > the outfit had "solved" over 200 cases in the last two months > where Hindus > were "caught" committing the "immoral" act of interacting with > members of > other communities. > > Mr. Moodabidri said, "Sometimes it becomes necessary to use force. > Fear of > such action should deter such misadventures. Girls reform > themselves once > they are thrashed and humiliated in public, but boys are tougher to > control." > > The Social Action Committee carried out a "joint operation" with > Bajrang Dal > activists in the city in one instance. "We will carry out more such > strikes," its president Deepak D'Mello told *The Hindu*. > > Former activists of the KFD have been linked to two such cases. The > organisation's president Abdul Aziz said that the acts were > committed by > delinquent members and distanced KFD from the issue. He confirmed > that the > organisation was against inter-community relationships but was > averse to > using force. > > The latest incident occurred on September 2 at Vittla in Bantwal > taluk where > activists of the Bajrang Dal assaulted a couple, Roopashree and Vikhar > Ahmed, and paraded them in public. The same afternoon, over 60 km > away in > Puttur taluk, Bajrang Dal activists stormed the house of Ayesha as her > friend Divya was visiting her. > > On September 1, Sugandhi and her three friends, Raghav, Anil and > Rasheed,were assaulted by Bajrang Dal activists when they were at > a hotel in the > heart of Mangalore city. On August 24, Deepa and her fiancé Abdul > Waheedwere dragged out of a bus at a junction in the city and > assaulted by Bajrang > Dal activists. > > On the afternoon of August 23, Bajrang Dal activists assaulted and > abusedclassmates Julia, Robert, Waheed, Abdul and Sunil because > they were found > laughing and talking loudly in a public place. > > On August 22, activists of the Bajrang Dal and the Social Action > Committeecarried out the "joint operation" against Mohammed and > his classmate > Catherine. On August 18, activists claiming to be from the KFD > assaultedDinesh and his friend Afshan at a remote village 25 km > from the city. They > were assaulted because Dinesh had brought medicines for Afshan who was > suffering from malaria. > > On August 8, activists of the Bajrang Dal assaulted Syed, Zulfikar > and Ameen > with soda bottles and hooks in a bus in the heart of the city > because they > had carried school bags belonging to a group of Hindu girls. > > On July 27, activists claiming to be from the KFD attacked Govind, an > autorickshaw driver at a village over 25 km from Mangalore because > he often > ferried his neighbours Uzma and Shaheen in his auto. On July 16, > Rehman was > heard talking and laughing loudly at a public place with his two > friends Uma > and Bhavya. They were assaulted and abused by Bajrang Dal activists. > > Superintendent of Police N. Sateesh Kumar said, "This is a social > issue.Resistance to such divisive forces should come from within > the community. In > cases where there have been assaults we have taken the necessary > action." > (Names of the victims have been changed to protect their identity) > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From shuddha at sarai.net Mon Sep 8 15:11:05 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 15:11:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?Cracking_down_on_=91violations_of_?= =?windows-1252?q?moral_code=92_in_Dakshina_Kannada?= In-Reply-To: <79e82f610809080007q1f894ef1xac7d81ed66c2decd@mail.gmail.com> References: <79e82f610809080007q1f894ef1xac7d81ed66c2decd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Rohan, Many thanks for your post. It is no secret that the reactionaries of different denominations should see ground for natural alliances on limited issues. Self declared Christian fundamentalist outfits have actually often in the forefront of seeking bans on films and books in India, just as Muslim fundamentalists have been, and they tactfully decline to comment on Hindu fundamentalists when they do the same. There is a 'coalition of hurt sentiments' and 'prudery' that far outweighs the otherwise vitiated relationships between them. This is what causes the Islamist 'Dukhtaran-e-Millat' in Kashmir to occasionally mirror the rhetoric of their 'Durga Vahini' sisters in India. Incidentally, the disruption of the Graduation exhibition at the Faculty of Fine Arts at MS University Baroda, which was commented on this list, involved the active participation individuals aligned with the VHP and the Bajrang Dal in Gujarat as well as a Christian Pentecostalist Minister by the name of Immanuel Kant. regards Shuddha On 08-Sep-08, at 12:37 PM, Rohan DSouza wrote: > Dear All, > > This particular article on the front page of yesterday's Bangalore > edition > of the Hindu, caught my attention. This was for various reasons, > the main > one being of complete disgust in the way in which people from > different > communities are being forced not to interact with each other in the > Dakshina > Kannada district of Karnataka. > > When reading the report carefully, one also notices with some > intrigue, two > of the bed fellows of this moral brigade, ie, the right wing militant > Bajrang Dal and Social Action Committee, a Christian organisation. > While the > Bajrang Dal is known to specifically target members of the Christian > community in other parts of India, (the recent attacks in Orissa > come to > mind), in the instances mentioned here there is an actual coming > together of > interests and corresponding action, of these organisations claiming to > represent the two communities. > > While I subscribe to the fact that the Bajrang Dal and the Social > Action > Committee cannot be seen as sole representatives of Hindu and > Christian > interests, it will still be worth looking at the social situation > in this > region, which could tolerate something like this. The Mangalorean > Christian > (Roman Catholic) community have been supporters of the Sangh > organisations, > especially the BJP. This seems to stem from the notion of their > Brahmanical > past (pre-conversion by the Portugese) as well as present, within the > Christian community set up. Casteist (Hindu & Chrisitian in this case) > feelings and bonds based on this seem to have superceded > differences of > religion here! Incidentally, similar notions of Brahmanical > ancestry and > superiority can also observed among the Syrian Christian community in > neighbouring Kerala. > > The coming together of the Hindu and the Chrisitian community, as > far as > aggressively expressing their political, social and moral > preferences in > this region, have ensured members of both communities dont interact > with > Muslims. This seeems to be designed to polarise and communalise the > region > (the Gujarat model, that CM Yediyurappa fawns over, in action?). > > The members (ex?) of the Islamic organisation, Karnataka Forum for > Dignity, > also seem to be playing along with this polarisation. The result of > which > will probably be a splintered social situation, with the Hindus and > Christians on one side of the divide and the Muslims on the other. > This has > earlier led to riots in this region and one can surely expect more. > > Taking advantaged of sentiments, emotions, based on actions, > reactions and > counter actions, seems to be the modus operandi of the three > organisations > mentioned in the article. > > Being distant as well as close, geographically and genetically, to > Dakshina > Kannada, has made me want to comment on this. However, this may be an > incomplete reading of the situation. Therefore would welcome comments, > thoughts on this. > > Regards, > Rohan > > http://www.hindu.com/2008/09/07/stories/2008090750160100.htm > > *Cracking down on 'violations of moral code' in Dakshina Kannada * > Sudipto > Mondal * In most cases, young men and women have been targeted * — > file > Photo: K.R. Deepak > > * Watched: Young people such as these have become victims of the > vigorously > enforced 'moral code' in Dakshina Kannada. * > > MANGALORE: Self-appointed vigilante groups are cracking down on those > "violating the moral code" in Dakshina Kannada district. Records > with the > district police that *The Hindu *had access to show that since the > third > week of July there have been 10 instances of these groups punishing > individuals whom they perceived as having violated the moral code. > > Hindutva organisations such as the Bajrang Dal, a Christian > organisation > Social Action Committee, as well as certain individuals who were > formerly > with the Karnataka Forum for Dignity (KFD), have been involved in > these > incidents. > > In most of the incidents the groups have targeted young men and > women from > different communities who were interacting with each other. In one > case, a > young woman was attacked because she went to the house of a young > woman from > a different community. > > The Bajrang Dal has claimed responsibility for seven of these > incidents. *, > *The district head of the organisation, Sudarshan Moodabidri, > claimed that > the outfit had "solved" over 200 cases in the last two months where > Hindus > were "caught" committing the "immoral" act of interacting with > members of > other communities. > > Mr. Moodabidri said, "Sometimes it becomes necessary to use force. > Fear of > such action should deter such misadventures. Girls reform > themselves once > they are thrashed and humiliated in public, but boys are tougher to > control." > > The Social Action Committee carried out a "joint operation" with > Bajrang Dal > activists in the city in one instance. "We will carry out more such > strikes," its president Deepak D'Mello told *The Hindu*. > > Former activists of the KFD have been linked to two such cases. The > organisation's president Abdul Aziz said that the acts were > committed by > delinquent members and distanced KFD from the issue. He confirmed > that the > organisation was against inter-community relationships but was > averse to > using force. > > The latest incident occurred on September 2 at Vittla in Bantwal > taluk where > activists of the Bajrang Dal assaulted a couple, Roopashree and Vikhar > Ahmed, and paraded them in public. The same afternoon, over 60 km > away in > Puttur taluk, Bajrang Dal activists stormed the house of Ayesha as her > friend Divya was visiting her. > > On September 1, Sugandhi and her three friends, Raghav, Anil and > Rasheed, > were assaulted by Bajrang Dal activists when they were at a hotel > in the > heart of Mangalore city. On August 24, Deepa and her fiancé Abdul > Waheed > were dragged out of a bus at a junction in the city and assaulted > by Bajrang > Dal activists. > > On the afternoon of August 23, Bajrang Dal activists assaulted and > abused > classmates Julia, Robert, Waheed, Abdul and Sunil because they were > found > laughing and talking loudly in a public place. > > On August 22, activists of the Bajrang Dal and the Social Action > Committee > carried out the "joint operation" against Mohammed and his classmate > Catherine. On August 18, activists claiming to be from the KFD > assaulted > Dinesh and his friend Afshan at a remote village 25 km from the > city. They > were assaulted because Dinesh had brought medicines for Afshan who was > suffering from malaria. > > On August 8, activists of the Bajrang Dal assaulted Syed, Zulfikar > and Ameen > with soda bottles and hooks in a bus in the heart of the city > because they > had carried school bags belonging to a group of Hindu girls. > > On July 27, activists claiming to be from the KFD attacked Govind, an > autorickshaw driver at a village over 25 km from Mangalore because > he often > ferried his neighbours Uzma and Shaheen in his auto. On July 16, > Rehman was > heard talking and laughing loudly at a public place with his two > friends Uma > and Bhavya. They were assaulted and abused by Bajrang Dal activists. > > Superintendent of Police N. Sateesh Kumar said, "This is a social > issue. > Resistance to such divisive forces should come from within the > community. In > cases where there have been assaults we have taken the necessary > action." > > (Names of the victims have been changed to protect their identity) > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From shuddha at sarai.net Mon Sep 8 15:58:57 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 15:58:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 2-Amarnath Accord - What A.G.Noorani did not tell you ! In-Reply-To: References: <6b79f1a70809070727v421bbb52x2f060e1c747529fc@mail.gmail.com> <867BED98-20C0-4F08-9E47-68537A194261@sarai.net> Message-ID: <97035040-D0B2-4943-AE7C-6B4796E379A0@sarai.net> Dear Lalit Ambardar, Many thanks for your post in response to A.G.Noorani's reading of the Amarnath accord. I have addressed much of the substance inherent in the points raised by you in my recent exchange with Pawan Durani, so will not repeat myself here. There is one point that you make that does however need attention. You say - "Where else in the country has a limit been put on the number of pilgrims? Why pick on Amarnath yatra please?" There are very good ecological reasons to put limits on the number of pilgrims to Amarnath, and to restore the limited extent of pilgrim traffic, through the traditional (non-Baltal) route, as was always the case before the Government of India and several right wing Hindu formations decided to project that Amarnath Yatra as a 'national' cause in the 1990s. There also exist excellent precedents for this decision. Limits have in fact been put on the number of pilgrims in the case of the Gomukh Yatra in Uttarakhand, the source of the Ganga, considered to be one of the holiest pilgrimage sites in Hinduism, in order to protect the fragile high altitude ecology of the Gangotri-Gomukh Glacier Zone. I have walked to the Gomukh glacier, and I have seen with my own eyes the extent of damage caused by unlimited pilgrim traffic. here is a report on the Uttarakhand government's decision in the DNA Newspaper of May 24, 2008 http://news.indiainfo.com/ 2008/05/24/0805241136_uttarakhand_govt_sounds_red_alert_on_ganga.html The 'land hunger' of the Sabarimala Temple Board in Kerala (the Sabarimala Temple is located adjacent to a forest zone) has also come in for criticism from environmentalists. I had referred to this in my very first posting on the Amarnath Issue on this list, on the 30th of June, 2008. http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2008-June/013162.html In this posting, I had made an argument to try and see the Amarnath issue not as a Kashmir or a Faith Centric issue but in terms of a question of what happens when state endorsed agencies, sometimes under the garb of faith, attempt to arrogate land to themselves. I had deliberately talked of instances in Kerala, as a parallel to the situation in Kashmir, in order to show that at its core, the Amarnath 'Land Transfer' issue has more mundane engines than faith or questions of so called 'national integrity'. I enclose below a copy of two DNA Reports on the Uttarakhand Government's decision to prohibit pilgrim traffic, and allow only restricted trekking access to Gomukh for the next five years for your perusal. regards Shuddha ------------------------------------ Uttarakhand govt sounds red alert on Ganga Ashwin Aghor, DNA Mumbai, Saturday, May 24, 2008 Mumbai: Taking serious note of the warning by World Wide Fund for nature (WWF) about the Ganges being one of the most polluted and highly endangered rivers in the world, the Uttarakhand government has decided to take measures to save the river.To start with, the government has declared Gomukh, the origin of the Ganga, out of bounds for the general public. The Gangajal Nature Foundation, a city-based non governmental organisation (NGO) has been instrumental in conservation of the river and had undertaken various projects to identify risks to the holy river. "It is better late than never. The ban on entry of the general public to Gomukh is a good decision taken by the government of Uttarakahand," said Vijay Mudshingikar of the Foundation. The WWF released a report about the status of 10 major rivers in the world. The report, released on the occasion of World Water Day in 2007 came as a major blow to India as the Ganga and Indus rivers were listed among the 10 most endangered rivers in the world. "It was a shocking revelation as in the name of religion and faith, we have virtually ruined these rivers," Mudshingikar said. The Foundation began a survey of the Ganga from its origin to the point where it meets the Bay of Bengal in 2001. On the basis of the outcome of the survey that ended in 2006, the Foundation started a general awareness campaign all over the country. The NGO's efforts coupled with the WWF report led the government to ban the entry of the general public, including the Kavad Yatra to Gomukh, for the next five years. “We will implement the ban in total. A notice to this effect has been put up at the base camp. All trekking expeditions will also be allowed only with prior permission of the central government,” said JK Unial, incharge of the Gangotri National Park. He said that around 15 organisations are actively involved in organising treks to Gomukh and lakhs of people visit the place during the Kavad Yatra. But all this will be stopped within three months, Unial added. The biggest problem for the administration is Lalbaba Ashram situated at Bhojvasa. “An eviction notice has been served to the ashram,” Unial said. The state government has also closed all dhabas along the road to Gomukh. “People should support the government of Uttarakahand in its efforts to save Gomukh. It is now established that the glacier is receding at an alarming rate of 40 metres per year. If not checked in time, within a few decades, it will cross the China border,” Mudshingikar said. According to the survey conducted by Geological Survey of India, Lucknow, the glacier was receding at the rate of 10 metres per year between 1935 and 1956. But it increased to 27-30 metres per year between 1956 and 1990. Source : DNA ========== Unclean Ganga May 24, 2008 http://epaper.dnaindia.com India’s holiest river has shrunk. According to the Geological Survey of India, the Gomukh glacier, the mouth of the Ganga, is receding at the alarming rate of 40m a year. If it is not checked now, within a few decades the glacier would have crossed the Chinese border. Of course, the recession has been known since early last century, but the Uttarakhand government’s move to protect Gomukh is welcome, even if it is a little late. The state has decided to stop all pilgrimage and tourist traffic to the site for the next five years. Treks will also be monitored. The immediate catalyst for this move is a World Wide Fund for Nature warning that the Ganga is one of the most polluted and endangered rivers in the world. For centuries, many people and all Hindus have believed in the purity and power of the water of the river. Some scientists have tried to prove that a small microbe that lives in its waters kept it clean. Be that as it may, the river has not been able to withstand the onslaught of increasing waste, mineral and industrial being thrown into it. As the river flows from the mountains to the plains and all the way to the sea at Hooghly, it is the receptacle of flowers, human bodies and who knows what else. Popular mythology says the river managed to cure itself; science today puts the river under threat. The Uttarakhand government has taken a very wise if unpopular decision - the Gangotri Yatra is much sought-after by Hindu pilgrims and trekkers. The non-government organisation which has lobbied with the government to save the river is hopeful that people will appreciate and understand the need for the ban. This is not, of course, the first Save Ganga campaign that this country has seen, but it can only be hoped that it will be more successful than the others. Rajiv Gandhi’s ambitious plan to save the mighty river did not yield the results it was expected to. Rivers in India - all variously sacred - have also been routinely mistreated. Some, like the Brahmaputra, show their fury often. Others like the once-majestic Jamuna have become placid and therefore are vanishing. The Narmada is being parcelled out. Even the modest Mithi showed its anger at being turned into a drain in the Mumbai floods of 2005. They all need help. The reasons why are so important that they do not bear repeating. At the crux of human civilisation is riverine culture. Raj Kapoor’s film Ram Teri Ganga Maili was not about endangerment through pollution of this kind, but the title could well be a rallying cry for a country which has taken its rivers and its religion very seriously, but has long forgotten to give back what it has taken away. On 08-Sep-08, at 3:54 AM, Lalit Ambardar wrote: > In case the discussion is still on AG Noorani’s article consisting > of baseless allegations that are only meant to mislead the > Kashmiri Muslim masses then please note the following point wise > rebuttal to Noorani’s rhetoric( did not check mail & missed Pawan > Durani’s elaborate post while I had already prepared the note, > therefore, would still like to share) : > 1. The mass movement in Jammu was against the Govt. rescind order. > Therefore, the accord had to be between the SASS & the govt. > only .The Kashmiri Islamists who refuse to recognise the law of the > land had rendered themselves redundant. In any case Govt. did not > bother to consult people of Jammu either when the land transfer > order was revoked under pressure from the Kashmiri Islamists. Jammu > & Kashmir continues to be a single entity; therefore, Jammuites as > state subjects have equal right on Kashmir province as well. > Mischievous role of the Kashmiri Muslim leaders in spreading > canards of cultural & demographic invasion to mislead the masses is > ignored by Noorani. Why? > 2. There is nothing wrong in the using the term ‘exclusive’ unless > there is a sinister design behind the objection. The fact is that > the land is to be used is for putting up the facilities along the > Hindu pilgrimage route. > Baltal route has been in use for years now. In any case why should > any body object to a particular route to the shrine? There are > portions along Pahalgam route also which are quite dangerous. > Where else in the country has a limit been put on the number of > pilgrims? Why pick on Amarnath yatra please? In any case the local > service providers are always happy with the greater number as > obviously it adds to their income. > 3. How does article 19(1) D get violated by merely allotting the > land ‘exclusively’ for the yatra? Unless there is a sinister desire > to disrupt the yatra. It could be only a sick man’s idea to imagine > misuse of yatra for ‘political’ & not ‘religious’ purposes. > Politics at those uninhabitable heights??? The idea probably stems > from the post Friday congregations in Kashmir where anti India > venom is spewed routinely. > 4. Arrangements are always made before & not during the event or > pilgrimage. > 5. Ownership of land doesn’t change. Hence article 370 isn’t > violated. Aren’t Hindus of J& K entitled for equal rights in J&K.? > 6. Payment for land use sounds like imposition of “jazia”. > Otherwise who pays whom? How are Kashmniri Muslims affected by the > waver? It is ironic that when the Kashmiri Islamists were up in the > arms against the land transfer in Kashmir, Delhi CM laid the > foundation stone of a multi billion dollar Haj House that is to be > fitted with most advanced facilities in Dwarka & no questions are > asked. > 7. It is preposterous to propose fine against water pollution & > against causing damage to the forests on the Hindu pilgrims in a > secular India. Where else is this being done in India or abroad? > Why is this assumed that Hindus are philistine? Sonia Jabber had > earlier in HT also observed sarcastically that the pilgrims > preferred “lota & woods”. I wonder what local Muslims do. Do they > use mobile lavatories? And what did Sonia Jabber do on the treck? > Why pick on Hindu pilgrims please? > Why not talk about shrinking Dal Lake & Jehlum that is more > pertinent. At least Kashmiri Hindus haven’t contributed any waste > to the rivers & lakes fro the past almost two decades since their > ethnic cleansing in the valley 19 years ago. > 8. Why is there silence over the illegality of the rescind order > which was issued after the PDP withdrawal. There is no arrangement > like ‘minority govt’ in the J&K constitution. > How can you on the one hand espouse openly the cause of Kashmiri > pan Islamic separatists who do not believe in the law of the land & > on the other talk of ‘legal efficacy’ as well as ‘moral political > legitimacy’??? > Why cry foul over aid to the Jammu protestors who fought for a > just demand when the Govt. has also been giving aid to the families > of terrorists besides giving compensation to the protestors in > Kashmir as well. We did not hear AG Noorani scream when SAS Jillani > who openly demands merger of Kashmir with Pakistan ( Azadi bara e > Islam) was airlifted in a state owned aircraft from Ranchi jail to > Mumbai for treatment a couple of years ago. > LA > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------- > >> From: shuddha at sarai.net> Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 22:13:51 +0530> To: >> pawan.durani at gmail.com> CC: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: >> [Reader-list] 2-Amarnath Accord - What A.G.Noorani did not tell >> you !> > Dear Pawan Durani, dear all,> > I am grateful, Mr.Durani, >> for your post in response to my reply, > and I am equally happy to >> conduct this discussion under any heading, > be it, 'What >> A.G.Noorani Did Not Tell You' or 'What Pawan Durani > Does Not >> Want Us to Talk About'.> > You underestimate my patience in terms >> of taking this issue through > to its logical conclusion. I may >> add, that I have no pre-determined > agenda insofar as the end of >> any discussion is concerned. I believe > in letting a discussion >> proceed on the terms of a reasonable exchange > of ideas and >> information, not on name-calling as a means to stone- > wall a >> discussion and to terrorize its participants, or its audience > or >> readership, into submission. I invite you to try and do the same > >> for a change.> > Unfortunately for you, Mr.Durani, the issue is >> not about whether or > not someone is 'buying' the land in Baltal. >> The SASB is not 'buying' > the land. Its intent is to acquire the >> land through a state enforced > fiat, on state enforced terms, at >> state enforced prices. You cannot > call that 'buying'. You can >> buy the land if someone is willing to > sell it, if there is a >> perfect equality in terms between the two > parties involved in >> the transaction, and if their desires (to buy and > sell) >> intersect and are co-eval.> > If people are unwilling to 'sell' >> then, the land cannot be 'bought'. > In any case, here, the legal >> 'owner' of some of the land, happens to > be an agency of the >> State Government, and the legal owners of the > land in question >> happen to be several other private parties. The 800 > kanals in >> question are a mix of Foret land, State Government owned > land, >> and private property. (As Sonia Jabbar has pointed out > before). >> If all the legal owners of the land are prepared to sell the > >> land to the SASB, or to any other party, there cannot be any > >> objection. Not even from me. That would be a straightforward and > >> transparent transaction that is governed by the laws of how things >> > (especially land) are bought and sold.> > And then your argument >> that the SASB's intention to get land is > equivalent to the case >> of any citizen of Jammu or Ladakh buying land > anywhere in J&K >> would have some basis. I am afraid, in the absence of > sellers, >> or their consent, there cannot be a buyer, and certainly the > >> SASB is not a 'buyer'. Since no 'purchase' of land is either > >> occurring, or contemplated, your argument falls flat on its face.> >> > I might add, that It is the same issue that rears its head >> wherever > else land acquisition by force or fraud comes up. In >> Singur, the > Government of West Bengal, did not 'buy' the land >> from the people who > owned the land, before passing it on the >> Tata Group. It 'acquired' it > under the cover of a Land >> Acquisition Act enacted through the > violence of colonial >> oppression in 1894. (The same act, incidentally, > is used, by the >> Indian armed forces to 'acquire' land, including > orchards and >> fields, in J&K), Today, the West Bengal Government it > is being >> compelled to rethink its previously unwavering posture on > the >> matter of land acquisition. I am sure that in J&K, the patently > >> undemocratic act of 'acquisition' of land for the SASB is bound to >> > backfire in time on the authorities responsible for this >> decision. It > has already cost them a great deal, it will cost >> them more in future.> > I am very well aware of who lives in >> Baltal. Baltal was a small > impermanent settlement generally used >> for transhumance by nomadic > shepherds following the banks of the >> Sindh nullah or the Romashi > rivulet on their way to Dras and >> beyond from the Kashmir valley > through the Zoji-La Pass that has >> grown into a small settlement. It > was traditionally never used >> for the Amarnath Pilgrimage and came > into prominence only when >> the possibility of helicopter services from > the area to the >> Amarnath site became feasible. Today, it comes to > life during >> the 'pilgrimage' season, when many of the local nomadic > Gujjars, >> and other more sedentary Kashmiris, generally Muslim by > faith, >> act as guides and pilgrims to the Hindu pilgrims who use the > >> 'new' Baltal route. They are joined by Tibetan refugee and Ladakhi >> > seasonal wool and trinket traders, who do brisk business, and > >> volunteers or 'sevadars' from the plains who assist the pilgrims.> >> > See - No sign of land row in Baltal by Shujaat Bukhari, in the >> Hindu > of August 12, 2008, for more details about Baltal.> http:// >> www.thehindu.com/2008/08/12/stories/2008081254781100.htm> (The >> Hindu's reports on Kashmir, especially those by Praveen Swami, > >> are items that Mr. Durani and his friends particuarly relish >> offering > to this list. So, I am sure that he would take this >> report with > utmost seriousness)> > The trek from Baltal climbs >> steeply from Domail, (2 kms from the > Baltal base camp) and the >> area is especially prone to storms and > landslides, which is why >> there has always been an insistence on > keeping the number of >> pilgrims low along this route. The 'overall' > figure for pilgrims >> on the 'Baltal route' recommended by the Nitish > Sengupta >> committee nowhere exceeds 700 pilgrims per day. This is what > the >> committee recommended on the basis of what it thought was the > >> possible infrastructure load that the area could accommodate, and >> > keeping in mind reasons of health and safety of the pilgrims. >> Nitish > Sengupta has now emerged as a voice in support of the >> SASB's current > position of claims on the land, (though he >> continues to maintain that > the number of pilgrims, and the >> duration of the pilgrimage need to be > curtailed) but the one-man >> committee report presented by him is > explicit in terms of the >> number of pilgrims that the Baltal region > can take.> > >> Incidentally, the head priest of Dashnami Akhara Mahant Deependra >> > Giri the traditional custodian of the 'Cchari Mubarak' (the holy >> > mace) and who initiates the ritual processes that inaugurate the >> > annual pilgrimage to the Amarnath Shrine, is also of the express >> view > that the Baltal route should be avoided as it has no >> scriptural > sanction whatsoever.> > Here is a report quoting the >> Mahant on his conclusion of the > pilgrimage this year.> > Mahant: >> Reduce Yatra Period, Avoid Baltal> Kashmir Observer, August 19, >> 2008> http://www.kashmirobserver.com/index.php? > >> option=com_content&view=article&id=886:mahant-reduce-yatra-period- >> > avoid-baltal&catid=50:localnews&Itemid=81> > I quote from this >> report -> "Mahant, who resigned from the SASB over the issue of >> extending the > duration of the yatra, had urged pilgrims not to >> visit the cave > before the 'Vyas Purnima' and prefer the >> traditional 46-km Pahalgam > route to the shortest 12-km Baltal >> route for religious reasons."> > Clearly, Pawan Durani will tell >> us that the statements made in public > fora by Kashmiri Pandits >> based in the valley and the Mahant of the > Dashnami Akhara cannot >> be trusted, but we must take whatever he says > on face value. >> Durani says that people like Sanjay Tickoo are > 'hostage to the >> terrorists'. Now he will probably say that Mahant > Deependra Giri >> is also a 'hostage to terrorists' . A statement of > this nature >> is serious, and unless Tickoo corroborates what Durani > says, >> must be treated as a malicious attempt at putting words by > >> Durani into Tickoo's mouth. I could just as easily say that Durani >> > and the entire Panun Kashmir-Roots in Kashmir archipelago are > >> 'hostages to state terror' but I do not believe that arguments can >> be > made, won, or lost by such utterly pointless exchanges. We >> must argue > on the basis of publicly verifiable statements. And >> insofar as > publicly verifiable statements are concerned, I am >> afraid that Durani > & Co.s insistence that they speak on behalf >> of all Hindus in the > Kashmir valley, or all Hindus in Jammu & >> Kashmir, or even all Hindus > in India does not hold. It gives us >> a sense only of their exaggerated > sense of their importance and >> their arrogance.> > Again, we cannot pretend, like Durani, that >> the right to acquire land > is equal to the right to movement, >> Article 370 restricts transactions > in land, not movement. The >> right to equality operates in situations > when the same end is >> sought by two parties. If two parties seek > movement, the right >> to equality would mean that both have the equal > right to move. >> If two parties seek to purchase land then the right to > equality >> would mean that both parties have the equal right to > purchase >> land. You cannot counterpose the conditions attendant to the > >> right to purchase land as an objection to to the conditions that > >> apply to the right of movement, and then invoke the right to >> equality > as a plea in favour of a decision one way or another. >> The right to > equality applies when the conditions are such that >> the two entities s > can be seen as capable of brought under >> considerations in terms of > identity (I mean identity here in a >> logical sense, as in saying that > an apple from Himachal Pradesh >> and an apple from Kashmir are both > identically, apples, and must >> be considered as comparable units of > the same class). To do >> otherwise is to offer an argument that > confuses its apples for >> its oranges. And then says, why are apples > not being considered >> equal to oranges.> > Finally, I find it interesting that Pawan >> Durani should use the term > 'trespassing'. There is considerable >> literature on how traditional > commons, became sequesterd and >> segregated through arbitrary > invocation of 'trespassing', and >> how the word trespass was used to > effect enclosures upon >> hitherto existing commons. The violence of the > early history of >> Capitalism throughout the world, is full of usages > of the word >> 'trespass'.> > If the people of Kashmir had said to the Amarnath >> pilgrims - "this > land is 'ours' you cannot pass through it, and >> if you do, we shall > consider you to be 'trespassers'...' or >> something to that effect, I > would have been spoken as much >> against such a declaration, as I do > today against the SASB and >> its partisans. In fact, the people of > Kashmir, including those >> who have agitated against the land transfer, > have reiterated >> time and again that they seek to maintain the highest > standards >> of hospitality towards who pass through Kashmir on their > way to >> Amarnath. It is only the protagonists of the SASB, such as our > >> own Pawan Durani, who have no compunction in insulting that > >> generosity by invoking the language of trespass.> > And no, I do >> not believe that the restrictions that limit movement on > the >> night of 25th or the 26th of January are moral. I hold them to be >> > deeply immoral. And I also do not believe that there should be > >> borders, or barbed wire fences along borders. I guess that makes >> me a > trespasser. But it makes me a trespasser who has the >> wherewithal to > buttress my words and my beliefs with a >> sustainable argument. Like > many of those who invoke the law of >> trespass against the passage of > common people, Pawan Durani has >> no ethical, or reasoned argument, all > he has behind him is the >> brutal and immoral might of the Indian state.> > I might be basing >> my arguments on the basis of reports on what Pawan > Durani >> characterizes as "Anti-Nationalist and Islamist" newspapers > such >> as Greater Kashmir and Rising Kashmir. (Incidentally, They are > >> neither "Anti Nationalist", nor do I see in them any consistently >> > "Islamist" traces. They are not "anti-nationalist" because they >> are > clearly sympathetic to one or the other variety of Kashmiri >> > Nationalism. I am no doubt, an anti-nationalist, because I >> believe > that all forms of nationalism, including Kashmiri >> nationalism, are > ultimately detrimental to human beings, but it >> would be unfair to > confuse me with the sources I am quoting) But >> whatever be the case, > the instances I am quoting involve quotes >> from Kashmiri Pandit and > non-Muslim individuals who cannot on >> any grounds be considered > either "Anit-Nationalist", or >> "Islamist" (They have not said they are > either, and we cannot >> accuse people of holding political positions > that they have >> themselves refrained from upholding). The statements > that they >> have made, and which I have quoted, can be either > disproven, >> which would be the case if it were shown that these people > did >> not say these things, or they can be verified. They cannot be > >> considered unacceptable merely because the newspaper that reported >> > them is not of the same Ideological persuasion as Pawan Durani.> >> > In my last posting, I had offered the possibility of considering >> > Pawan Durani either as a fool or as a charlatan, based on a my > >> assessment of his demonstrated ability to hold a sustained >> argument. > This meant, that in my opinion, he either did not have >> the > intelligence to hold on to a sustained argument by >> reasonable means > (hence, fool), or cared not to, and was intent >> on misleading us with > his malafide postings (hence, charlatan). >> This reasoning was entirely > based on the form and substance of >> his argument. I would like to > known on what basis Mr.Durani has >> the impertinence to call me a 'neo- > convert'. What dose he think >> I have 'converted' and that too, newly, > to? How can he even >> think he knows what transpires in my conscience, > or what he >> calls my 'heart' especially when, not a single argument > offered >> by me is based on any question of faith, emotion or sentiment.> > >> I have revised my opinion about Pawan Durani, he is clearly not a >> > fool. He is using what Tapas Ray has referred to in his recent >> post > as - 'human tragedies' - for all that they are worth in >> order to > buttress a morally, ethically, rationally weak >> position, with enough > skill not to warrant being mistaken for a >> fool. That leaves only one > possibility.> > regards> > Shuddha> > >> > Dear Shuddha,> > It is very obvious of what way you want the >> discussion to end up. > > Let me> > just share with readers some >> example.> >> > 1. Instead of replying to my post , Mr Shuddha >> changes the subject to> > :Noorani Reads the fine print on >> Amarnath Accord", while as the > > original> > subject line was >> "What A.G.Noorani did not tell you".This is the first> > >> impression to understand of how fair Shuddha would have been to > >> > understand> > my write up, and Shuddha lived upto his reputation >> for > > that ....perfectly.> >> > 2.When I say that every state >> subject has an equal right to every > > inch of> > land , that >> does not mean to buy a piece of land in Srinagar a > > Ladakhi >> would> > have to go to Assembly to get an order passed. Mr >> Shuddhas > > understanding of> > the sentence is very poor and >> childish.> >> > 3.Shuddha is not aware of who lives in Baltal ? >> His understanding > > of the> > area is based on his passionate >> reading of anti nationalist and > > Islamist> > newspaper like >> Greater Kashmir and Rising Kashmir. Incidentally rising> > Kashmir >> was inaugurated by Noorani himself. What a coincidence.> >> > >> 4.Shuddha again ignores the report of chief Wildlife warden on > > >> allotment of> > land and like a "parrot" repeats the Hurriyat >> language. And if this > > is how> > Shuddha loves to debate >> without even acknowledging the report of > > those who> > are in- >> charge of ecology and wildlife in the Baltal area , I wonder > > >> no one> > would be able to satisfy his brain,which seems to be >> locked for any> > reasoning.> >> > 5. What Nitish Sen Gupta had >> wanted on priority is that on high > > grounds the> > number of >> pilgrims should be restricted to 20000.> >> > 6. Shuddha quotes >> that KPSS or Sanjay Tikoo wanted his > > participation. What> > >> Shuddha does not share that Sanjay Tikoo, who happens to be a >> close > > friend,> > is no less a hostage to the separatists. He >> has to tow their line. > > I would> > not discuss this issue in >> detail as this may cause harm to my already> > scared community >> members in Kashmir. Issue like this needs a > > broader vision> > >> which morons like Shuddha and Gautam Navlakha can not understand.> >> >> > 7. When I was discussing the fundamental right , I wrote " >> The > > right to> > Equality " which Shuddha very cunningly >> altered to "Fundamental > > right to> > Movement" ... It was so >> clever of him to change the whole context > > and to> > ignore the >> expected discussion of how the 100 crore citizens of > > India >> are> > being denied the right to be equal as against the state >> subjects of > > J&K> > state. And let me remind to Mr Shuddha that >> neither is whole of J&K > > a tribal> > place nor a forest.> >> > >> 8. Shuddha gives a very childish and immature rhetoric statement > >> > that the> > Amarnath accord violate the fundamental right to >> movement > > guaranteed under> > Article 19 (A) of the Indian >> Constitution. Does that mean> > that trespassing is no word to >> exist. Does that mean that I can > > stroll on> > India gate lawns >> on night between 25th and 26th January. Does that > > mean I> > >> can stand right next to barbed wire fence on the border? Does that >> > > mean I> > can ride my bicycle on the runway of an airport. >> Shuddha has no > > understand> > of where the violation applies >> and where not ?> >> > 9.Mr Shuddha may call me a fool or a >> charlatan. It does not matter > > to me . I> > know where his >> heart lies and what the Neo convert believes in.> >> > Pawan >> Durani> > _________________________________________> > reader- >> list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques >> & Collaborations> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- >> request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header.> > To >> unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ >> >> > _________________________________________> reader-list: an >> open discussion list on media and the city.> Critiques & >> Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- >> request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.> To >> unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________________________________ > Movies, sports & news! Get your daily entertainment fix, only on > live.com > http://www.live.com/?scope=video&form=MICOAL > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From shuddha at sarai.net Mon Sep 8 17:26:07 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 17:26:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70809061140n3f24f95cpf5ff5953a49217c@mail.gmail.com> References: <821912.19661.qm@web57211.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <6353c690809030754n46e01c85va5267b772467649f@mail.gmail.com> <13df7c120809052249j449f2d1ahdbf3c72236d07f8b@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809060001o1e15116dkb2b0502462d8bd5f@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690809060744w1aab3fb8sa79fd383ca18f25a@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70809060848l9401fcdledbad1da01dfb823@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70809061140n3f24f95cpf5ff5953a49217c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4E3DAA54-0ACB-4785-B207-48022E445E6E@sarai.net> Dear all, Here is another critique of Noorani's reading of the Amarnath Accord. And this text is definitely pro-Accord, which it sees as the best bet for peace in the current conditions in Jammu and Kashmir. I am not necessarily in agreement with what this writer says. But am forwarding it, because i think it represents a difference of opinion, reasonably expressed. And I am always willing to respect the reasonable, reasoned expression of an opinion that may be contrary to mine. Incidentally, it appeared today in the 'Greater Kashmir' newspaper, which has been roundly castigated in recent posts by Pawan Durani as an 'Islamist' mouthpiece. Surely an 'Islamist' propaganda sheet would be a little more circumspect than to publish a pro-Accord voice on its op-ed page. The 'Greater Kashmir' carried both Noorani's critique, and now, this critique of Noorani's critique. I think that this represents fair and balanced practice, as should be normal in any newspaper, and demonstrates that newspapers like 'Greater Kashmir' and indeed Kashmiri fora that are broadly sympathetic to the project of the withdrawal of Indian forces from the disputed territory, are far more accommodative of diversity and difference within them, than they are credited for being by their critics, including several strident voices on this list. I hope that the next time someone forwards something from 'Greater Kashmir' on this list, they will restrain their tiring knee jerk abusive responses. regards Shuddha ------------------------------------------ Let’s look at the Agreement with an open mind so that masses are not misled, writes B. L Koul. Greater Kashmir, Op-Ed, September 08, 2008 http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp? Date=8_9_2008&ItemID=5&cat=12 The recent agreement reached between the Jammu and Kashmir Government panel and the Shri Amarnath Yatra Sangarash Samiti on Shri Amarnath land row, has been path breaking in every sense of the word. The land row and the agitations that it sparked have unfortunately created a near regional and communal divide between Kashmir and Jammu regions, witnessed never before. While the common man appears to be by and large satisfied with the settlement, some debate has been seen in Kashmir media. In private talk many people in Kashmir candidly accept the deal as the best possible CBM in the situation. Some even sarcastically ask as to what jammuites actually got that unleashed celebrations there. But there is yet another extreme opinion calling the agreement as immoral and illegal and sought to create misgivings on the issue. Discussions are essence of a democracy and India, being a well bloomed democratic country guaranteed to its citizens the freedom of expression. A well known constitutional expert , Mr A G Noorani, has sought to raise certain issues with regard to its legality. The learned jurist has summarily dismissed the agreement as constitutionally invalid, saying that the transfer of land as per the agreement with the Samiti is contrary to the principles laid down by the Supreme Court of India in various judgments. The judgment of the Supreme Court reported in (2008) 2-SCC page 229, as mentioned by a constitutional expert while substantiating his claim about the agreement being unconstitutional, is not relevant to the present case. This judgment pertains to the case titled Union of India versus S R Dingra and others, dealing with a specific service matter. The learned expert perhaps means the judgment of Supreme Court in the case, T N Godavarman Thirumulpad versus Union of India and others reported in (2008) 2-SCC-Page 222. This case pertains to the division of forest land by the Orissa Government for non-forest use like setting up of an Alumina Refinery Project. The Supreme Court in this judgment has observed that the Court could consider granting of clearance to the project only if the parties including the State of Orissa jointly agree to comply with certain modalities aimed at rehabilitation package. In the case of land used by Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board (SASB), the land has neither been transferred or diverted. It has simply been set aside for use during the Yatra period for creating temporary facilities for the pilgrims. The title as well as the possession of the land continues with the State . Moreover, the use of the land by the SASB is not permanent but is restricted to Yatra period only. There is no tree on the said land which could be cleared. Therefore, the agreement between the Government and SAYSS does not in any way violate the Supreme Court judgment. Unfortunately, a legal luminary of the status of Mr Noorani, has gone to the extent of terming the agreement as an immoral and illegal accord, far worse than the impugned Government Order issued on May 26, 2008, diverting about 800 kanals of land to SASB for raising temporary infrastructure. To prove his point he refers to the absence of the condition for return of the land to the forest deptt as was the case in the May 26 order. What an argument? The learned author should care to understand that when the land is neither transferred nor diverted to the Shrine Board, and it continues to be with the State from where does the question arise for returning the land back to the Forest Department . In May 26 Order, the land was diverted. It appears that Mr Noorani is reading the clauses of the agreement in isolation. It is a well settled rule of interpretation that a document must be read as a whole in its context. Whenever the question arises as to the meaning of a certain provision or a clause in a document in its context- the context means the statute/document as a whole. As laid down by the Apex Court, “to ascertain the meaning of a clause in a statue, the Court must look at the whole statue, at what precedes and at what succeeds and not merely at the clause itself”. Therefore, the clauses of the agreement have to be read and interpreted as a whole and not in isolation or each other. It is a fact that the words ‘exclusively’ and ‘according to Board’s requirements from time to time’ appear in clause A and D of the agreement but these expressions have to be interpreted with clause C which emphatically declares that the Board shall use the aforesaid land for the duration of the Yatra andalso clause B which clearly stipulates that proprietary status/ownership/title of the land shall not undergo any change. It will be mischievous if some one talk about round the year yatra and try to find some expression in the agreement to prove it. I think the people of Kashmir knows very well, if not by Mr Noorani, that it is an annual pilgrimage starting on Vyas Poornima and concluding on the day of Sravana Poornina, which is Raksha Bandhan, hence it is always for a specific period. How the author presumes it to be a year long event is beyond anybody’s comprehension? Let’s try to examine the words ‘exclusive’ and ‘the use of the land according to Board’s requirements from time to time’ in their right perspective. In the agreement, it is stated that “the State Government shall set aside for the use by Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board, exclusively, the land in Baltal and Domail (Compartment No. 63/ S, Sindh Forest Division) comprising an area of 800 kanals…,” The word “set aside” and “exclusively” used in the Agreement underwrite and emphasise the commitment of the State Government to make 800 kanals of land available to the Shrine Board for Yatra purposes. This commitment relates to the period of Yatra only. Therefore, seen from another perspective, land use during the Yatra period has been left exclusively to the Board which is mandated with the over all responsibility of managing the Yatra. The term ‘Use of land according to Board’s requirements from time to time’ is again being misrepresented. It is unfortunate that misperception is sought to be created on two counts –first, that the Board shall be allowed to use the land through out the year; and secondly, that according to the Board’s requirements which may change from ‘time to time’ additional requirement of land may arise. Both these conclusions are totally ill founded. The relevant extract of the agreement is that “the aforesaid land shall be used according to the Board’s requirements, from time to time, including for the following……”. The plain reading of this extract, together with the preamble of the Agreement which clearly states that the entire framework of action for resolving the issues relating to use of land relates to the period of Yatra only, indicates that the use of land is restricted to 800 kanals only and it is only the utilization pattern (how much of land for what purpose) that could undergo a change according to the emerging requirements of the Board during the period of Yatra only. The public opinion is being misled by terming the agreement as ‘unilateral’. What is this unilateral? Agitation was in Jammu for 62 days and it had to be with people representing Jammu. Even then Governor had extensive discussions with the cross section of Kashmir’s civil society including the leaders of various political parties, social and religious groups, academicians, media persons and other sections of the society. This exercise was aimed at getting a precise idea of sensitivities and concerns of the Kashmir Valley. The idea was also to clear any lingering doubts and concerns of the people generated by the malicious propaganda about the land transfer issue. The agreement is the reiteration of the tradition in which the Yatra has been going on for the decades. It also takes into consideration the sensitivities and concerns of the people of both the regions. The agreement also allays all fears and apprehensions about any change in the title of land besides safeguarding the interests of local stakeholders like ponywallas, tentwallal, petty shopkeepers. What else could be the best deal for the people of both the regions than this? We should mislead the people and put them on agitational path as we already had enough of it. Lets look at the agreement with open mind rather than with tainted glasses. END From virtuallyme at gmail.com Mon Sep 8 17:32:17 2008 From: virtuallyme at gmail.com (Rohan DSouza) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 17:32:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?Cracking_down_on_=91violations_of_?= =?windows-1252?q?moral_code=92_in_Dakshina_Kannada?= In-Reply-To: References: <79e82f610809080007q1f894ef1xac7d81ed66c2decd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <79e82f610809080502t26a3dba1xcfc42813cebe89db@mail.gmail.com> Dear Shuddha, Radhika, Appreciate your responses. Agree with you Shuddha on the point that actions of reactionaries of different denominations, based on prudery/perceived hurt, outweighing other animosities. Taking this thought further, these coalitions of selective conveniences, are self appointed guardians/holders of mores, values and norms. However such moral police, despite being self-appointed can only act and even thrive in a society which allows them to. So, is what is being acted out in Dakshina Kannada, have the tacit approval of civil society in its various manifestations, over there? If so, what drives this approval? I would like to re look at the article in the context of one of the points you seem to be making, Radhika, which is the relationships being questioned and disrupted so violently are mostly of the romantic variety. I would like to point out some instances reported here, which include instances where friends of the same sex *("In one case, a young woman was attacked because she went to the house of a young woman from a different community")* being attacked for just meeting up with each other. I'm certainly not ruling out the possibility or commenting on the appropriateness of a same-sex romantic relationship, but in this context, seems like a friend from one community just visiting a friend from another community at her house. A mixed group of youngsters, in terms of sex, not being allowed to meet and even in one case not being allowed to talk loudly in public spaces! ("*Bajrang Dal activists assaulted and abused classmates Julia, Robert, Waheed, Abdul and Sunil because they were found laughing and talking loudly in a public place*"). Given this, I don't see this as the moral policing of the kind you seem to be alluding to, seemingly replacing or filling in a vaccum created by liberal education, indulgent parents, attractions of permissible cultures being beamed into houses and economic independence. It clearly seems to be polarisation of the worst kind. And of course, as has been debated on this list before (even in the recent MF Hussain related discussion), who is to decide what 'ideal' morals and values are and what 'acceptable' behaviour is and who is to decide on whether 'enforcement' is required? Regards, Rohan On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 3:11 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear Rohan, > > > Many thanks for your post. It is no secret that the reactionaries of > different denominations should see ground for natural alliances on limited > issues. Self declared Christian fundamentalist outfits have actually often > in the forefront of seeking bans on films and books in India, just as Muslim > fundamentalists have been, and they tactfully decline to comment on Hindu > fundamentalists when they do the same. There is a 'coalition of hurt > sentiments' and 'prudery' that far outweighs the otherwise vitiated > relationships between them. This is what causes the Islamist > 'Dukhtaran-e-Millat' in Kashmir to occasionally mirror the rhetoric of > their 'Durga Vahini' sisters in India. > > > Incidentally, the disruption of the Graduation exhibition at the Faculty of > Fine Arts at MS University Baroda, which was commented on this list, > involved the active participation individuals aligned with the VHP and the > Bajrang Dal in Gujarat as well as a Christian Pentecostalist Minister by the > name of Immanuel Kant. > > > regards > > > Shuddha > > > > > > On 08-Sep-08, at 12:37 PM, Rohan DSouza wrote: > > Dear All, > > > This particular article on the front page of yesterday's Bangalore edition > > of the Hindu, caught my attention. This was for various reasons, the main > > one being of complete disgust in the way in which people from different > > communities are being forced not to interact with each other in the > Dakshina > > Kannada district of Karnataka. > > > When reading the report carefully, one also notices with some intrigue, two > > of the bed fellows of this moral brigade, ie, the right wing militant > > Bajrang Dal and Social Action Committee, a Christian organisation. While > the > > Bajrang Dal is known to specifically target members of the Christian > > community in other parts of India, (the recent attacks in Orissa come to > > mind), in the instances mentioned here there is an actual coming together > of > > interests and corresponding action, of these organisations claiming to > > represent the two communities. > > > While I subscribe to the fact that the Bajrang Dal and the Social Action > > Committee cannot be seen as sole representatives of Hindu and Christian > > interests, it will still be worth looking at the social situation in this > > region, which could tolerate something like this. The Mangalorean > Christian > > (Roman Catholic) community have been supporters of the Sangh organisations, > > especially the BJP. This seems to stem from the notion of their Brahmanical > > past (pre-conversion by the Portugese) as well as present, within the > > Christian community set up. Casteist (Hindu & Chrisitian in this case) > > feelings and bonds based on this seem to have superceded differences of > > religion here! Incidentally, similar notions of Brahmanical ancestry and > > superiority can also observed among the Syrian Christian community in > > neighbouring Kerala. > > > The coming together of the Hindu and the Chrisitian community, as far as > > aggressively expressing their political, social and moral preferences in > > this region, have ensured members of both communities dont interact with > > Muslims. This seeems to be designed to polarise and communalise the region > > (the Gujarat model, that CM Yediyurappa fawns over, in action?). > > > The members (ex?) of the Islamic organisation, Karnataka Forum for Dignity, > > also seem to be playing along with this polarisation. The result of which > > will probably be a splintered social situation, with the Hindus and > > Christians on one side of the divide and the Muslims on the other. This has > > earlier led to riots in this region and one can surely expect more. > > > Taking advantaged of sentiments, emotions, based on actions, reactions and > > counter actions, seems to be the modus operandi of the three organisations > > mentioned in the article. > > > Being distant as well as close, geographically and genetically, to Dakshina > > Kannada, has made me want to comment on this. However, this may be an > > incomplete reading of the situation. Therefore would welcome comments, > > thoughts on this. > > > Regards, > > Rohan > > > http://www.hindu.com/2008/09/07/stories/2008090750160100.htm > > > *Cracking down on 'violations of moral code' in Dakshina Kannada * Sudipto > > Mondal * In most cases, young men and women have been targeted * — file > > Photo: K.R. Deepak > > > * Watched: Young people such as these have become victims of the vigorously > > enforced 'moral code' in Dakshina Kannada. * > > > MANGALORE: Self-appointed vigilante groups are cracking down on those > > "violating the moral code" in Dakshina Kannada district. Records with the > > district police that *The Hindu *had access to show that since the third > > week of July there have been 10 instances of these groups punishing > > individuals whom they perceived as having violated the moral code. > > > Hindutva organisations such as the Bajrang Dal, a Christian organisation > > Social Action Committee, as well as certain individuals who were formerly > > with the Karnataka Forum for Dignity (KFD), have been involved in these > > incidents. > > > In most of the incidents the groups have targeted young men and women from > > different communities who were interacting with each other. In one case, a > > young woman was attacked because she went to the house of a young woman > from > > a different community. > > > The Bajrang Dal has claimed responsibility for seven of these incidents. *, > > *The district head of the organisation, Sudarshan Moodabidri, claimed that > > the outfit had "solved" over 200 cases in the last two months where Hindus > > were "caught" committing the "immoral" act of interacting with members of > > other communities. > > > Mr. Moodabidri said, "Sometimes it becomes necessary to use force. Fear of > > such action should deter such misadventures. Girls reform themselves once > > they are thrashed and humiliated in public, but boys are tougher to > > control." > > > The Social Action Committee carried out a "joint operation" with Bajrang > Dal > > activists in the city in one instance. "We will carry out more such > > strikes," its president Deepak D'Mello told *The Hindu*. > > > Former activists of the KFD have been linked to two such cases. The > > organisation's president Abdul Aziz said that the acts were committed by > > delinquent members and distanced KFD from the issue. He confirmed that the > > organisation was against inter-community relationships but was averse to > > using force. > > > The latest incident occurred on September 2 at Vittla in Bantwal taluk > where > > activists of the Bajrang Dal assaulted a couple, Roopashree and Vikhar > > Ahmed, and paraded them in public. The same afternoon, over 60 km away in > > Puttur taluk, Bajrang Dal activists stormed the house of Ayesha as her > > friend Divya was visiting her. > > > On September 1, Sugandhi and her three friends, Raghav, Anil and Rasheed, > > were assaulted by Bajrang Dal activists when they were at a hotel in the > > heart of Mangalore city. On August 24, Deepa and her fiancé Abdul Waheed > > were dragged out of a bus at a junction in the city and assaulted by > Bajrang > > Dal activists. > > > On the afternoon of August 23, Bajrang Dal activists assaulted and abused > > classmates Julia, Robert, Waheed, Abdul and Sunil because they were found > > laughing and talking loudly in a public place. > > > On August 22, activists of the Bajrang Dal and the Social Action Committee > > carried out the "joint operation" against Mohammed and his classmate > > Catherine. On August 18, activists claiming to be from the KFD assaulted > > Dinesh and his friend Afshan at a remote village 25 km from the city. They > > were assaulted because Dinesh had brought medicines for Afshan who was > > suffering from malaria. > > > On August 8, activists of the Bajrang Dal assaulted Syed, Zulfikar and > Ameen > > with soda bottles and hooks in a bus in the heart of the city because they > > had carried school bags belonging to a group of Hindu girls. > > > On July 27, activists claiming to be from the KFD attacked Govind, an > > autorickshaw driver at a village over 25 km from Mangalore because he often > > ferried his neighbours Uzma and Shaheen in his auto. On July 16, Rehman was > > heard talking and laughing loudly at a public place with his two friends > Uma > > and Bhavya. They were assaulted and abused by Bajrang Dal activists. > > > Superintendent of Police N. Sateesh Kumar said, "This is a social issue. > > Resistance to such divisive forces should come from within the community. > In > > cases where there have been assaults we have taken the necessary action." > > > (Names of the victims have been changed to protect their identity) > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > Raqs Media Collective > > shuddha at sarai.net > > www.sarai.net > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > From mahmood.farooqui at gmail.com Mon Sep 8 17:58:40 2008 From: mahmood.farooqui at gmail.com (mahmood farooqui) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 17:58:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Book Launch: 'Indian Renaissance: India's Rise after a Thousand Years of Decline" Message-ID: This is to invite you to the launch of my book "The > Indian Renaissance: > India's Rise after a Thousand Years of Decline". > The event is at 6.15pm on > 18th Sept (Thu) at Crosswords, Kemps Corner. The book will > be released by > Shashi Tharoor. > > The formal invitation is attached below. > > Also, please feel free to forward to anyone who may be > interested. > > regards > > Sanjeev > From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 8 22:54:16 2008 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 10:24:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] SC refuses to take action against M F Husain Message-ID: <725407.94697.qm@web51410.mail.re2.yahoo.com> SC refuses to take action against M F Husain NEW DELHI: The Supreme Court refused to initiate criminal proceedings against noted painter M F Husain for allegedly hurting public sentiments through some of his paintings that were dubbed as obscene. "There are many such pictures, paintings and sculptures and some of them are in temples also," a bench headed by Chief Justice K G Balakrishnan said, dismissing one such petition. The bench, also comprising Justices P Sathasivam and J M Panchal, was not impressed with the argument that Hussain was taking advantage of his age and reputation to get away with the law by painting obscene pictures. One such creation of the painter, titled Bharat Mata, was brought before the apex court for its scrutiny. Maharashtra-based Dwaipayan Venkateshacharya Varkhedkar had challenged a Delhi High Court verdict quashing the criminal proceedings initiated against the eminent painter in Maharashtra, Madhya Pradesh and Gujarat. Husain's paintings,depicting Bharat Mata and Hindu gods and goddesses, had created a furore. Husain had started receiving threats from right-wing groups like the VHP and the Bajrang Dal. Husain is living in a self-imposed exile in Dubai now. The proceedings against the painter were initiated on the basis of complaints filed in Panderpur (Maharastra), Rajkot (Gujarat) and Indore (Madhya Pradesh) claiming that his paintings were obscene and that they hurt public sentiments. The criminal complaints filed in various places were shifted to the Patiala House district courts in the Capital after the artist had approached the apex court. After the transfer of cases, Husain, 90, had filed a petition in the Delhi High Court for quashing the complaints which was allowed on May 8 this year. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/SC_refuses_to_take_action_against_M_F_Husain/articleshow/3459623.cms From indersalim at gmail.com Mon Sep 8 23:17:48 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 23:17:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] A Ghazal Numa image ( on Kashmir ) Message-ID: <47e122a70809081047gfbe507dsbe5aeacb294c01c6@mail.gmail.com> Please click http://indersalim.livejournal.com to see, a ghazal numa image with love and regards to all inder salim From tapasrayx at gmail.com Tue Sep 9 06:56:56 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 21:26:56 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Breakthrough in Singur In-Reply-To: <4FAB0460-19A7-4D6C-AA55-C4CE7FD7EAF4@sarai.net> References: <4FAB0460-19A7-4D6C-AA55-C4CE7FD7EAF4@sarai.net> Message-ID: <48C5D0E0.5090307@gmail.com> Shuddha and others, Although this was definitely a victory for the people who had lost their land, I was wondering - as you (Shuddha) clearly were as well - whether the last word had been written. As they say, if it looks too good to be true, it probably is. That is what seems to be happening here. The state government shows a different face from the one Singur had seen until now, but as soon as the Tatas express their "distress" (according to the Telegraph), it "scurries to clear the air" with a clarification, which Mamata Banerjee quickly rejects as being contrary to the agreement. I do not know who is lying, but will watch to see where this goes. Incidentally, I have firsthand knowledge of an automobile plant in the USA, which makes SUVs. It occupies all of 300 acres, give or take, whereas just the *disputed land* in Singur at present measures 400 acres. And this is a scaled-back demand, which was for 1,000 acres initially. If one wonders why Nano needs so much land, I think the answer lies in two areas. One, for the Tatas' stated objective of cutting manufacturing costs to the minimum. And two - this is my guess, as I do not know any details of the project - they probably want to set up a self-sufficient township like Tatanagar (Jamshedpur), maybe smaller because of the proximity to Calcutta. By making sure that ancillaries are adjacent to the car plant, they cut transport costs and time to practically zero. In other words, the farmers of Singur are subsiding the dream car of India's middle class. If my guess about the township is correct, that will have some interesting consequences, too. I will share my thoughts on that here if I can ascertain the details. Tapas Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > At the close of last night, the Governor of West Bengal, Gopal > Krishna Gandhi announced that a solution acceptable to all (the > protesting farmers at Singur and the Government of West Bengal) has > been found, and that Ms. Mamata Bannerjee of the Trinamool Congress > (one of the key protagonists of the Singur protest) would announce > that the agitation at Singur would be suspended. > Though it may be premature to call this 'breakthrough' a victory for > peasants and working people, it is certainly reason to believe that > not every struggle conducted by ordinary people over land, resources > and livelihood is doomed to failure. This news should raise the hopes > of all those committed to protest against unjust land alicquisition > and transfer moves - be they in Orissa, Haryana, Kerala, Kashmir or > elsewhere. > > I enclose below a PTI report in the Hindu that gives more details of > the agreement. > > regards, > > Shuddha > From ishwarsridharan at yahoo.com Tue Sep 9 10:04:06 2008 From: ishwarsridharan at yahoo.com (Ishwar Sridharan) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2008 10:04:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] CERN's atom smasher, for those who're interested Message-ID: <48C5FCBE.8000507@yahoo.com> Something different from what's usually discussed in this mailing list, and something very momentous. http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/09/08/lhc.collider/index.html?eref=rss_latest A moment that scientists have been waiting for close to two decades, almost as momentous as when Majikthise and Vroomfondle ask the answer to the Life, the Universe and Everything. There's also going to be a live webcast, in case it interests you. http://www.engadget.com/2008/09/08/cerns-lhc-first-beam-to-be-broadcast-live-on-wednesday/ -- Cheers, Ishwar. From waliarifi3 at gmail.com Tue Sep 9 13:16:07 2008 From: waliarifi3 at gmail.com (Wali Arifi) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 13:16:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Land Deal in Kashmir Message-ID: <4fcaee300809090046t215608a9s5e2aaa79eaa95e@mail.gmail.com> 9TH September 2008 PRESS STATEMENT The Land Deal in Kashmir: A Dangerous Surrender to the Jammu Agitators We the undersigned academics, and others express grave concern at how the dispute over grant of land to the Amarnath Board in Kashmir is being handled by our political authorities. Over four weeks the agitators in Jammu were allowed by the administration to impose a blockade of Kashmir, which, despite official denials practically continued till the end of August. Those whom Mr LK Advani and others call "nationalists", committed crime, arson and mayhem in Jammu, while waving the national flag. They have themselves proved to the most effective separatists since they entirely separated Kashmir from the rest of the country, and tried to starve out the people of the very area they are never tired of pronouncing an integral part of India. By allowing them to do so and by making concession after concession to them the Government of India cannot escape the stigma of colluding with them. When on the other hand, driven to desperation, the people of Kashmir valley protested against the blockade, as many as forty persons were shot dead by the military, para-military and police forces. In the talks with the Jammu agitators through an all-party delegation headed by the Home Minister, the agitators secured the exclusion of the representatives of the Kashmir parties (PDP and NC) despite an invitation issued to them. No compensation for those killed and injured by army and police firings in the Kashmir valley has been so far announced, in contrast to what was done swiftly in Jammu. And now the final act of collusion with the Jammu agitators has taken place, by the revocation of the Governor's own order of 29 June and the re-allotment of the 800 kanals of land "exclusively" to the Amarnath Shrine Board. The agreement was announced at a "joint" press conference of the Governor's representative and the Jammu agitators on 31 August. The deal's details made it clear that limitation to "the duration of yatra" is a mere formality, since no power is given to the Government of Jammu and Kashmir over how the Shrine Board deals with the land "from time to time". It is also clear that the special concessions, under paras 9 and 10 of the agreement, about withdrawal of cases and compensation to agitators are confined to Jammu and not made applicable to the Kashmir Division. No persons sincerely interested in opposing the movement for Kashmir's secession can support this deal, which is naturally seen in Kashmir as an unjust and provocative act. If we wish to retain Kashmir as part of our country we should stop treating the Kashmiri people as aliens and let them decide what to do with their land. We therefore call upon all fellow-citizens to join us in demanding a revocation of the deal and the establishment of a proper rule of law in the whole State of Jammu and Kashmir. Professor R.S. Sharma (Patna) Professor Suvira Jaiswal (Hyderabad) Professor Keshavan Veluthat (Mangalore) Professor R.L. Shukla (Delhi) Professor Irfan Habib (Aligarh) Professor H.C. Satyarthi (Muzaffarpur) Professor Shireen Moo svi (Aligarh) Professor D.N. Jha (Delhi) Professor Pradeep Saxena (Aligarh) Professor Iqtidar Alam Khan (Aligarh) Dr Ramesh Rawat (Aligarh) Professor Sayera I. Habib (Aligarh) Dr Prabhat Shukla (New Delhi) Dr S. Ali Nadeem Rezavi (Aligarh) Professor Rajan Gurukkal (Mangalore) Dr Shamim Akhtar (Aligarh) Released by IRFAN HABIB Professor Emeritus, AMU From indersalim at gmail.com Tue Sep 9 13:34:17 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 13:34:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] a ghazal numa image ( on kashmir ) Message-ID: <47e122a70809090104y5303ca9dy10193ef0d6b73e77@mail.gmail.com> please click-- http://indersalim.livejournal.com to see A GHAZAL NUMA IMAGE ON KASHMIR with love and regards to all is From javedmasoo at gmail.com Tue Sep 9 23:04:11 2008 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (Javed) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 23:04:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] what they say about their new prez Message-ID: Below are some posts about Asif Zardari on Facebook by Pakistan's junta. ---- Afshan Aman (RWTH Aachen) wrote at 10:18pm I also hate ZARDARI, though I MUSHI bhai was no better in the end Rashid Ali wrote at 10:05pm Kahan Apna Raja bhoj (Pervez Musharraf) and kahan yeah Gangu Teli (Asif Zardari)... wah re ooper walle wah tu bhi kya chamtkaar karta hai!!!! Shaq Zee wrote at 8:53pm First speech after becoming President. Why the hell Afghan arrogant Karzai was sitting in the press conference? This Karzai should be given no respect as his previous statements on Pakistan were so arrogant. I call this First screw up by Zardari. What do you all think? Muhammad Abdullah Khan wrote at 8:28pm yo, did u all see the oath taking ceremony today ?? zardari ke tou daant andar hee nahee jaa rahe he, he was soooooo happy that now he can wreck havoc in the country. Saffi Ullah Ahmad (King's College London) wrote at 8:17pm If anyone here is interested, and from the UK- I am helping organize a major event at Kings college university- London (with press coverage), which will feature Imran Khan and possibly Aitzaz Ahsan later on this month. Zardari ki besti karengai, Please contact me if anyone wants details. Ali Muhammad wrote at 8:17pm i hate asif ali zardari Mishelle Raza wrote at 8:11pm jail se jilawatni ... jilawati se aiwan-e-sadr!! is that something to be proud of??? what a track record! :@ Derwesh Nusrat Naeem wrote at 6:46pm TOOOOO xynubbb...this is a hateclubbb man ...how cn u expect gud things 4rm zardari........cuz its zardari..... Awais Javed (Gandhi National School, Ancol) wrote at 5:51pm am in Jakarta,,,,it was so embarrasing to read a headline in Jakarta Post as follows: 'Pakistan: Zardari, Prison to President' what a shame more than that can be for a pakistani abroad or even in his own country!! ridiculous Nimz wrote at 4:09pm http://www.new.facebook.com/group.php?gid=9772842259 Please Join this fanclub of our new army chief Gen Ashfaq Kayani.... After Mr 10 percent has "attacked" Pakistan,we are all looking towards our beloved army. Plz jin this fanclub to stand behind Gen Kayani. Shahedah Ahmad wrote at 1:06pm american super hero mr. 100% Xynab wrote at 8:06am yeah ur right but i think acc to the present cond of our country v cant take risk of giving single CHANCE TO MR ZARDARII the president of Pakistan no doupt hez wise n smart but all his qualitiez r just 4 him not 4 country he cant be like ZULFIQAR BHUTTO N HER daughter he can do any thing 4 his benefit >>> may Allah bless our country >>>>>> Ahmer Ali (Pakistan) wrote at 8:05am Zardari is so stupid. He just limited his remianing life span to not more than 3 -4 years. Look at the History. How many Presidents who though they are all powerful left the President house alive and if lucky disgraced. Shaq Zee wrote at 5:52am Calm down all I am not fan of Asif Ali Zardari at all but now he is President of our country as a civilized Pakistani I must stand behind him, Praise him for good he does and criticize him if he is not in line with the interest of Pakistan. We also must give him full chance to do his jab and we must wait and see. You never know he might turn out to be good if not for himself but may be for his son. As he knows what he does today his son will pay for it tomorrow. Country can not afford hate for hate sake. PPP always gets screwed up by the people who kiss up to PPP leaders. I hope Zardari is smart to see who is his true friend and how is only kissing up to him for favors. These people who kiss up to him will keep him away from ground reality and this is what screwed up his father in Law Z A Bhutto. Jawad Rabbani wrote at 5:41am yeah abbas u r very rite...zulfi man forget about the number, think wat will happen to pk in the future....and u r still wondering whether there will be 10 million ppl in this grp or not....cum on man wake up..! ! ! Abbas Ali wrote at 4:44am @Zulfi Its take some time to awake Pakistani people you will soon find us reaching that number as well. Lakin aapki yeh woh misaal hay na kay khud kuch kerna nahee hay aur logoon ko batein kerni hay. If someone is doing something good than you should better appreciate their efforts than to discourage them. Ahmed Andrabi (Argentina) wrote at 2:52am Gen Zia ul Haq should have been successful in destroying the PPP, then we would not have seen this day when Zardari became president. PPP is the most corrupt party in Pakistan, almost all the members in the PPP are murderers and thieves, even during BBs time it was an incompetent party. Down with the PPP Zulfi Nazir (Pakistan) wrote at 1:40am what are u talking about?1,000,000,000 even cant find 10000 Muhammad Sarosh (Pakistan) wrote at 1:22am well put by Talha, the retards voted for PPP again...lol. i send my laanat on anyone so stupid Mohammad Ghufran (Lahore University of Management Sciences) wrote at 8:24pm yesterday Well... I bet i hate zardari more than anyone else... but i guess none of the admins realized that the target number of people is at-least ten times more than total users on Facebook! Khaqan Ali Khan (Lahore Grammar School) wrote at 8:00pm yesterday I don't like zardari or ppp or anyone else for that matter, but it really makes no difference to who ever is ruling. The entire system is corrupt. We shot our leaders, hanged them, and all it gave us was an excuse to let loose firing on the streets and kill innocents. So just live it with you're not in a position to change it all. Khaqan Ali Khan (Lahore Grammar School) wrote at 7:56pm yesterday Who will us be happy with? Atleast its a democracy now. :) take a chill pill, everyone's corrupt it ain't only zardari who else would you have prefered? Would he be completely honest? Call him a cmr but he has shown be the guy who got it all He rules pakistan now. Appreciate his ingenuity. Better learn to live with this democracy or gear up for another martial law. Your choice. give the guy a chance. Xynab wrote at 7:41pm yesterday ager main aik din kay liye super man bun jaoon to pehla waar ASIF ZARDARI PAY HO GA GO TO HELL U LOOSER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Talha Sulaiman (University of Karachi) wrote at 5:01pm yesterday Guy, what do you think would happen to Pakistan after being ruled by a Bloody CMR (Certified Mentally Retarded) Person? I really feel sorry to Pakistan & for the Stupid Nation of Pakistan who actually deserves this after reellecting the bloody PPP for the 3rd time. I think this is enough as its getting really hard to control my language while fasting. Sana Malik (Pakistan International School) wrote at 4:54pm yesterday Hate U ZarDari !!!!...........CorruPtor!!!!...See ur Face first...!!! Muhammad Sarosh (Pakistan) wrote at 4:43pm yesterday we hate him so much that we made him president.......lol sab ke moun kale hon :P Madiha Asghar (United Arab Emirates) wrote at 2:42pm yesterday yyyaaaa we hate zardari and we HATE HIM ALOT AND AND PRESIDENT PERVEZ MUSHHARRAF IS A LIVING LEGEND :p LOL Nauman Moghal (United Arab Emirates) wrote at 1:39pm yesterday Chor! This is what we get! Danish Waheed (Dr. Phillips High School) wrote at 1:02pm yesterday i hope he gets pregnant. Zee Kerani (Toronto, ON) wrote at 11:33am yesterday http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq4PFnl1S6Q The REAL Pakistan? Zee Kerani (Toronto, ON) wrote at 11:12am yesterday We should get him assassinated. Find some real vigilantes who'll get the job done? Tariq Butt (Pakistan) wrote at 10:29am yesterday I hope he dies a horrible death... Hamza Bilal Khan (Pakistan) wrote at 8:17am yesterday I wish PAKISTAN the very best in this grim situation...Allah meri dharti kou kaaim-o-daaim rakhna... Amin! Thieves get the key to my prcious homeland. Pactarya wrote at 8:15am yesterday Zerqa I agree with your sentiments but surely Zardari has been tried as well ? Until we have rule of law in the country nothing will go right Zerqa Ahmed (Hamilton, ON) wrote at 7:32am yesterday We Pakistanis have tried all dictators and politicians during the last sixty one years, no body could provide any of the necessity to the people because there were never any democratic institutions there. I bet you we can never have any solution for Pakistan without evolving stable institutions. You need to welcome the popular political leaders, if they go relatively wise support them. If they do blunders reject them. That practice needs a continuation not any interruption by any dictator. Fawad Ali wrote at 7:29am yesterday Choroon per DAKU musalat ker dya GYA!! Shahbaz Khan wrote at 3:50am yesterday na tera pakistan hai na mera pakistan hai ye us ka pakistan hai jo sadrey pakistan hai Sonu Peters wrote at 1:26am yesterday Awwww man....................... here comes corruption (again) (i hope he's not giving away Pakistan on e-bay) Rana Mohammad Azeem wrote at 12:15am yesterday jo khud ko insane kehtay hian ab wo pakistan sambhalain gay.... uffff.... God Bless our homeland..... Imran Ahmed (Pakistan) wrote at 11:51pm on September 7th, 2008 Is he going to honour his pledge viz the Fourteenth Amendment? Saad Tajwar wrote at 11:40pm on September 7th, 2008 hate him guys, cant salute him ! shitos Mustansir Shaherwala (Pakistan) wrote at 11:38pm on September 7th, 2008 An information to share with you guys that our leaders will now make trade of this project and get the money to fill in their bank accounts.! Estimated Thar Coal Reserves are around 850 Trillion Cubic Feet. Equal to 400 Billion Barrels of oil . Which is equal to oil reserves of Saudia Arabia and Iran Together. Investment Required is $4 Billion. By only using 2% of that coal reserves, Pakistan can generate 20,000 MW of Electricity for almost 40 years. Current government clims the project to fail coz we hav bin told that the coal reserves have excessive moisture. But infact new power generation technology needs coal with heavy moisture! Just think how they will rip our homeland and how they will fill up their accounts! sad! Muzammil Yaqoob wrote at 10:40pm on September 7th, 2008 aisai gndai president ko road khada kr k jotai marnai chiyai Hira Sohail (Pakistan) wrote at 10:35pm on September 7th, 2008 Ab ye chor chakar iss Mulk ko sambhalain gay :< Pakistan ka ab Allah hi Hafiz hai Saffi Ullah Ahmad (King's College London) wrote at 9:54pm on September 7th, 2008 Allah will help the people, once the people help themselves. The Pakistani Qaum puts animals Zardari in power... No ones going to help us now, we are finished. Mishelle Raza wrote at 9:50pm on September 7th, 2008 what can we do... as much as we hate him, this is all what the current situation has to offer us. lets just hope for the best. its the holy month of ramzan, please pray for our betterment brothers n sisters! Allah is mulk ko sambalay ga, we are the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, Allah will always protect us all InshAllah Samina Zafar wrote at 9:35pm on September 7th, 2008 when he smiles.. i feel like breaking his teeth Rizwan Asghar (United Arab Emirates) wrote at 9:04pm on September 7th, 2008 waqar thats really true..... http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/miscellaneous/story/2008/09/080907_baat_se_baat_zs.shtml Usama Ahmad wrote at 9:01pm on September 7th, 2008 HE SMILES LIKE A BITCH , HE EATS LIKE A BITCH , Actually he is a BITCH !! Usama Ahmad wrote at 9:00pm on September 7th, 2008 PLEASE GOD SAVE USS !! PLEASE GOD SAVE US FROM THIS EVIL FUCKING BITCH !!! Usama Ahmad wrote at 8:56pm on September 7th, 2008 All Eyes on Zardarii !! As he smiles the bitches gets attractive !! Usama Ahmad wrote at 8:54pm on September 7th, 2008 A corrupted person is here !!!! now the future of pakistan is goneeee !! Usama Ahmad wrote at 8:53pm on September 7th, 2008 That son of a bitch doesnt know when to die it looks like someone has to show him !! Sadia Gilani (St. Michael's Convent School) wrote at 8:03pm on September 7th, 2008 he cancelled a school Holiday. He must die. Asif Iqbal (Wesgreen Intl School) wrote at 6:04pm on September 7th, 2008 there arent even 1,000,000,000 ppl on FB LOL Khalid wrote at 5:34pm on September 7th, 2008 The truth of the matter remains that paki nation voted fr PPP and in turn Zardari. For those demanding democratic liberal rule in the country ...zardari comes wid the package. Call it illetracy, myopic vision or lack of wisdom paki people opted him. He has representation from all the federating units. wat suits the head of a state stature though is to clear his name from numerous allegations lawfully and rise above board as unbiased symbol of unity in federation. Zardari hasnt done so moreover strongly reflects bias by holding the position of chairman of a political party. Media trial of zardari ought to happen... sooner than later. Asim Ansari (McMaster) wrote at 5:11pm on September 7th, 2008 Pakistan elections: "all in favour, say aye, all against, please step outside, the firing squad is waiting for you." Waqar Ahmed Cheema (Spain) wrote at 4:35pm on September 7th, 2008 READ IT, AS ITS THE TRUTH: http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/miscellaneous/story/2008/09/080907_baat_se_baat_zs.shtml Mehak wrote at 4:24pm on September 7th, 2008 wonder where da hell iz pk leading to...first musharaff n now zaradaari.....musharaff se to peecha chhurwa liya......ab iss manhoos pagal se jan kaise churwaein??? n a source disclosed tht asifa (the youngest daughter of benazir) was an outcome of the rape that asif zardari did wen benazir went to meet him in jail.plus he used to beat her up n usually slap her in the middle of a meeting if she didnot pass any order that he wanted.n usually she had marks of brutality on her body.her best frend came infront of media only once when she declared k benazir never discussed her will wid her even though she discussed every oder petty matter.n after tht she kept silent n away.whts the reason?? duh obviously the jerk must have threatened her into doing so. how sick can a guy get...seriously asif zardari is one limit....wonder how to get rid of him Sakib Hameed (Sixth Form College, Solihull) wrote at 3:56pm on September 7th, 2008 hav u guys noticed that after the death of benazir bhutto Zardari had not only a glowing complexion but in his interviews he gave some weird answers. My personal favourite was when he said he didn't want her autopsy done because her body "belongs to God know." My question is when she was alive who did her body belong to before? Saad Ahsan Malik (International School of Islamabad) wrote at 3:47pm on September 7th, 2008 Lets all get ready to be raped by the new government. From oishiksircar at gmail.com Wed Sep 10 00:23:13 2008 From: oishiksircar at gmail.com (OISHIK SIRCAR) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 00:23:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Film: 'Being Osama', Sept 11 @ Oxford Bookstore, Park Street Message-ID: <62cba67a0809091153v71989ac6h6107a36ea6362c33@mail.gmail.com> *Open Space and Oxford Bookstore* *present* *Let's Talk* *a film series on human rights* *September 11* *6pm* *Oxford** Bookstore, Park Street, Kolkata* *'BEING OSAMA'* Dirs. Tim Schwaband Mahmoud Kaabour/2004/42 mins 'Being Osama' opens a window onto the lives of six Montréalers named Osama. Through an exploration of the interior and emotional lives of these subjects, the film connects the experiences of these individual Arab-Canadians to those of their own larger cultural community and to Canadian society as a whole, seen against the backdrop of continuing conflict and suspicion between the West and the Arab/Islamic world. By turns lyrical, observational, impressionistic, and factual, 'Being Osama' is an intimate exploration of six people highly diverse in their backgrounds, interests, and personalities, united by their first name and by their experience as Arabs living in Canada in the post-9/11 world. *The film will be introduced and a post-screening discussion moderated by Oishik Sircar, Scholar in Women's Rights, Faculty of Law, University of Toronto* -- OISHIK SIRCAR Scholar in Women's Rights Faculty of Law, University of Toronto oishiksircar at gmail.com oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca From alexanderaugust at gmail.com Wed Sep 10 11:22:03 2008 From: alexanderaugust at gmail.com (Alexander Keefe) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 11:22:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] SC refuses to take action against M F Husain In-Reply-To: <725407.94697.qm@web51410.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <725407.94697.qm@web51410.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Meanwhile, the "miscreants" are at it again, this time with a rather less exalted target. The public discourse on contemporary art in this country seems to oscillate between two equally mythological black-box entities: "the market" and "sentiment". I'm waiting for the article that brings them together: "The Economics of Having Your Art Show Trashed by Hooligans". Until then: http://www.thehindu.com/2008/09/10/stories/2008091061950300.htm *Paintings exhibition vandalised * NEW DELHI: A group of hooligans vandalised a paintings exhibition titled "Kamayani" by Manjit Singh at India Habitat Centre here on Tuesday. Over half-a-dozen persons donning saffron scarves stormed into the exhibition hall and smashed the paintings and raised slogans. They also manhandled Manjit Singh who had to be taken to the All-India Institute of Medical Sciences. The miscreants fled before the private security guards at India Habitat Centre could reach the spot. A senior police officer said: "It is difficult to say which organisation was behind the attack." According to Manjit Singh's son Jasvinder, a couple of visitors had made some adverse comments on the paintings in the visitors' book on Monday, saying the paintings were against Hindu culture. The four-day exhibition was to end on Tuesday. On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 10:54 PM, Yousuf wrote: > SC refuses to take action against M F Husain > > NEW DELHI: The Supreme Court refused to initiate criminal proceedings > against noted painter M F Husain for allegedly hurting public sentiments > through some of his paintings that were dubbed as obscene. > > "There are many such pictures, paintings and sculptures and some of them > are in temples also," a bench headed by Chief Justice K G Balakrishnan said, > dismissing one such petition. > > The bench, also comprising Justices P Sathasivam and J M Panchal, was not > impressed with the argument that Hussain was taking advantage of his age and > reputation to get away with the law by painting obscene pictures. > > One such creation of the painter, titled Bharat Mata, was brought before > the apex court for its scrutiny. > > Maharashtra-based Dwaipayan Venkateshacharya Varkhedkar had challenged a > Delhi High Court verdict quashing the criminal proceedings initiated against > the eminent painter in Maharashtra, Madhya Pradesh and Gujarat. > > Husain's paintings,depicting Bharat Mata and Hindu gods and goddesses, had > created a furore. Husain had started receiving threats from right-wing > groups like the VHP and the Bajrang Dal. Husain is living in a self-imposed > exile in Dubai now. > > The proceedings against the painter were initiated on the basis of > complaints filed in Panderpur (Maharastra), Rajkot (Gujarat) and Indore > (Madhya Pradesh) claiming that his paintings were obscene and that they hurt > public sentiments. > > The criminal complaints filed in various places were shifted to the Patiala > House district courts in the Capital after the artist had approached the > apex court. > > After the transfer of cases, Husain, 90, had filed a petition in the Delhi > High Court for quashing the complaints which was allowed on May 8 this year. > > > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/SC_refuses_to_take_action_against_M_F_Husain/articleshow/3459623.cms > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- jugaadoo.blogspot.com From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Sep 10 11:55:49 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 11:55:49 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 2-Amarnath Accord - What A.G.Noorani did not tell you ! In-Reply-To: <97035040-D0B2-4943-AE7C-6B4796E379A0@sarai.net> References: <6b79f1a70809070727v421bbb52x2f060e1c747529fc@mail.gmail.com> <867BED98-20C0-4F08-9E47-68537A194261@sarai.net> <97035040-D0B2-4943-AE7C-6B4796E379A0@sarai.net> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70809092325m36688c1aqa78eabd77fec1e59@mail.gmail.com> Dear Mr. Lalit Amabardar, You may discuss with people who would buy the argument of Hight Court or the Chief Warden in-charge of Wildlife and ecology. What do you do with those who ignore the both ? However you would helpless in case of those who would compare London with Lahore. Pawan On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 3:58 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear Lalit Ambardar, > > Many thanks for your post in response to A.G.Noorani's reading of the > Amarnath accord. I have addressed much of the substance inherent in > the points raised by you in my recent exchange with Pawan Durani, so > will not repeat myself here. > > There is one point that you make that does however need attention. > You say - > > "Where else in the country has a limit been put on the number of > pilgrims? Why pick on Amarnath yatra please?" > > There are very good ecological reasons to put limits on the number of > pilgrims to Amarnath, and to restore the limited extent of pilgrim > traffic, through the traditional (non-Baltal) route, as was always > the case before the Government of India and several right wing Hindu > formations decided to project that Amarnath Yatra as a 'national' > cause in the 1990s. There also exist excellent precedents for this > decision. > > Limits have in fact been put on the number of pilgrims in the case of > the Gomukh Yatra in Uttarakhand, the source of the Ganga, considered > to be one of the holiest pilgrimage sites in Hinduism, in order to > protect the fragile high altitude ecology of the Gangotri-Gomukh > Glacier Zone. I have walked to the Gomukh glacier, and I have seen > with my own eyes the extent of damage caused by unlimited pilgrim > traffic. > > here is a report on the Uttarakhand government's decision in the DNA > Newspaper of May 24, 2008 > http://news.indiainfo.com/ > 2008/05/24/0805241136_uttarakhand_govt_sounds_red_alert_on_ganga.html > > The 'land hunger' of the Sabarimala Temple Board in Kerala (the > Sabarimala Temple is located adjacent to a forest zone) has also come > in for criticism from environmentalists. I had referred to this in my > very first posting on the Amarnath Issue on this list, on the 30th of > June, 2008. > > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2008-June/013162.html > > In this posting, I had made an argument to try and see the Amarnath > issue not as a Kashmir or a Faith Centric issue but in terms of a > question of what happens when state endorsed agencies, sometimes > under the garb of faith, attempt to arrogate land to themselves. I > had deliberately talked of instances in Kerala, as a parallel to the > situation in Kashmir, in order to show that at its core, the Amarnath > 'Land Transfer' issue has more mundane engines than faith or > questions of so called 'national integrity'. > > I enclose below a copy of two DNA Reports on the Uttarakhand > Government's decision to prohibit pilgrim traffic, and allow only > restricted trekking access to Gomukh for the next five years for your > perusal. > > regards > > Shuddha > ------------------------------------ > Uttarakhand govt sounds red alert on Ganga > Ashwin Aghor, DNA Mumbai, Saturday, May 24, 2008 > > Mumbai: Taking serious note of the warning by World Wide Fund for > nature (WWF) about the Ganges being one of the most polluted and > highly endangered rivers in the world, the Uttarakhand government has > decided to take measures to save the river.To start with, the > government has declared Gomukh, the origin of the Ganga, out of > bounds for the general public. > > The Gangajal Nature Foundation, a city-based non governmental > organisation (NGO) has been instrumental in conservation of the river > and had undertaken various projects to identify risks to the holy river. > > "It is better late than never. The ban on entry of the general public > to Gomukh is a good decision taken by the government of > Uttarakahand," said Vijay Mudshingikar of the Foundation. > > The WWF released a report about the status of 10 major rivers in the > world. The report, released on the occasion of World Water Day in > 2007 came as a major blow to India as the Ganga and Indus rivers were > listed among the 10 most endangered rivers in the world. > > "It was a shocking revelation as in the name of religion and faith, > we have virtually ruined these rivers," Mudshingikar said. > > The Foundation began a survey of the Ganga from its origin to the > point where it meets the Bay of Bengal in 2001. On the basis of the > outcome of the survey that ended in 2006, the Foundation started a > general awareness campaign all over the country. The NGO's efforts > coupled with the WWF report led the government to ban the entry of > the general public, including the Kavad Yatra to Gomukh, for the next > five years. > > "We will implement the ban in total. A notice to this effect has been > put up at the base camp. All trekking expeditions will also be > allowed only with prior permission of the central government," said > JK Unial, incharge of the Gangotri National Park. > > He said that around 15 organisations are actively involved in > organising treks to Gomukh and lakhs of people visit the place during > the Kavad Yatra. But all this will be stopped within three months, > Unial added. > > The biggest problem for the administration is Lalbaba Ashram situated > at Bhojvasa. "An eviction notice has been served to the ashram," > Unial said. The state government has also closed all dhabas along the > road to Gomukh. > > "People should support the government of Uttarakahand in its efforts > to save Gomukh. It is now established that the glacier is receding at > an alarming rate of 40 metres per year. If not checked in time, > within a few decades, it will cross the China border," Mudshingikar > said. > > According to the survey conducted by Geological Survey of India, > Lucknow, the glacier was receding at the rate of 10 metres per year > between 1935 and 1956. But it increased to 27-30 metres per year > between 1956 and 1990. > > Source : DNA > > ========== > > Unclean Ganga > May 24, 2008 > http://epaper.dnaindia.com > > India's holiest river has shrunk. According to the Geological Survey > of India, the Gomukh glacier, the mouth of the Ganga, is receding at > the alarming rate of 40m a year. If it is not checked now, within a > few decades the glacier would have crossed the Chinese border. Of > course, the recession has been known since early last century, but > the Uttarakhand government's move to protect Gomukh is welcome, even > if it is a little late. The state has decided to stop all pilgrimage > and tourist traffic to the site for the next five years. Treks will > also be monitored. > > The immediate catalyst for this move is a World Wide Fund for Nature > warning that the Ganga is one of the most polluted and endangered > rivers in the world. For centuries, many people and all Hindus have > believed in the purity and power of the water of the river. Some > scientists have tried to prove that a small microbe that lives in its > waters kept it clean. Be that as it may, the river has not been able > to withstand the onslaught of increasing waste, mineral and > industrial being thrown into it. As the river flows from the > mountains to the plains and all the way to the sea at Hooghly, it is > the receptacle of flowers, human bodies and who knows what else. > Popular mythology says the river managed to cure itself; science > today puts the river under threat. > > The Uttarakhand government has taken a very wise if unpopular > decision - the Gangotri Yatra is much sought-after by Hindu pilgrims > and trekkers. The non-government organisation which has lobbied with > the government to save the river is hopeful that people will > appreciate and understand the need for the ban. > > This is not, of course, the first Save Ganga campaign that this > country has seen, but it can only be hoped that it will be more > successful than the others. Rajiv Gandhi's ambitious plan to save the > mighty river did not yield the results it was expected to. Rivers in > India - all variously sacred - have also been routinely mistreated. > Some, like the Brahmaputra, show their fury often. Others like the > once-majestic Jamuna have become placid and therefore are vanishing. > The Narmada is being parcelled out. Even the modest Mithi showed its > anger at being turned into a drain in the Mumbai floods of 2005. They > all need help. The reasons why are so important that they do not bear > repeating. At the crux of human civilisation is riverine culture. > > Raj Kapoor's film Ram Teri Ganga Maili was not about endangerment > through pollution of this kind, but the title could well be a > rallying cry for a country which has taken its rivers and its > religion very seriously, but has long forgotten to give back what it > has taken away. > > > > On 08-Sep-08, at 3:54 AM, Lalit Ambardar wrote: > > > In case the discussion is still on AG Noorani's article consisting > > of baseless allegations that are only meant to mislead the > > Kashmiri Muslim masses then please note the following point wise > > rebuttal to Noorani's rhetoric( did not check mail & missed Pawan > > Durani's elaborate post while I had already prepared the note, > > therefore, would still like to share) : > > 1. The mass movement in Jammu was against the Govt. rescind order. > > Therefore, the accord had to be between the SASS & the govt. > > only .The Kashmiri Islamists who refuse to recognise the law of the > > land had rendered themselves redundant. In any case Govt. did not > > bother to consult people of Jammu either when the land transfer > > order was revoked under pressure from the Kashmiri Islamists. Jammu > > & Kashmir continues to be a single entity; therefore, Jammuites as > > state subjects have equal right on Kashmir province as well. > > Mischievous role of the Kashmiri Muslim leaders in spreading > > canards of cultural & demographic invasion to mislead the masses is > > ignored by Noorani. Why? > > 2. There is nothing wrong in the using the term 'exclusive' unless > > there is a sinister design behind the objection. The fact is that > > the land is to be used is for putting up the facilities along the > > Hindu pilgrimage route. > > Baltal route has been in use for years now. In any case why should > > any body object to a particular route to the shrine? There are > > portions along Pahalgam route also which are quite dangerous. > > Where else in the country has a limit been put on the number of > > pilgrims? Why pick on Amarnath yatra please? In any case the local > > service providers are always happy with the greater number as > > obviously it adds to their income. > > 3. How does article 19(1) D get violated by merely allotting the > > land 'exclusively' for the yatra? Unless there is a sinister desire > > to disrupt the yatra. It could be only a sick man's idea to imagine > > misuse of yatra for 'political' & not 'religious' purposes. > > Politics at those uninhabitable heights??? The idea probably stems > > from the post Friday congregations in Kashmir where anti India > > venom is spewed routinely. > > 4. Arrangements are always made before & not during the event or > > pilgrimage. > > 5. Ownership of land doesn't change. Hence article 370 isn't > > violated. Aren't Hindus of J& K entitled for equal rights in J&K.? > > 6. Payment for land use sounds like imposition of "jazia". > > Otherwise who pays whom? How are Kashmniri Muslims affected by the > > waver? It is ironic that when the Kashmiri Islamists were up in the > > arms against the land transfer in Kashmir, Delhi CM laid the > > foundation stone of a multi billion dollar Haj House that is to be > > fitted with most advanced facilities in Dwarka & no questions are > > asked. > > 7. It is preposterous to propose fine against water pollution & > > against causing damage to the forests on the Hindu pilgrims in a > > secular India. Where else is this being done in India or abroad? > > Why is this assumed that Hindus are philistine? Sonia Jabber had > > earlier in HT also observed sarcastically that the pilgrims > > preferred "lota & woods". I wonder what local Muslims do. Do they > > use mobile lavatories? And what did Sonia Jabber do on the treck? > > Why pick on Hindu pilgrims please? > > Why not talk about shrinking Dal Lake & Jehlum that is more > > pertinent. At least Kashmiri Hindus haven't contributed any waste > > to the rivers & lakes fro the past almost two decades since their > > ethnic cleansing in the valley 19 years ago. > > 8. Why is there silence over the illegality of the rescind order > > which was issued after the PDP withdrawal. There is no arrangement > > like 'minority govt' in the J&K constitution. > > How can you on the one hand espouse openly the cause of Kashmiri > > pan Islamic separatists who do not believe in the law of the land & > > on the other talk of 'legal efficacy' as well as 'moral political > > legitimacy'??? > > Why cry foul over aid to the Jammu protestors who fought for a > > just demand when the Govt. has also been giving aid to the families > > of terrorists besides giving compensation to the protestors in > > Kashmir as well. We did not hear AG Noorani scream when SAS Jillani > > who openly demands merger of Kashmir with Pakistan ( Azadi bara e > > Islam) was airlifted in a state owned aircraft from Ranchi jail to > > Mumbai for treatment a couple of years ago. > > LA > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> From: shuddha at sarai.net> Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 22:13:51 +0530> To: > >> pawan.durani at gmail.com> CC: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: > >> [Reader-list] 2-Amarnath Accord - What A.G.Noorani did not tell > >> you !> > Dear Pawan Durani, dear all,> > I am grateful, Mr.Durani, > >> for your post in response to my reply, > and I am equally happy to > >> conduct this discussion under any heading, > be it, 'What > >> A.G.Noorani Did Not Tell You' or 'What Pawan Durani > Does Not > >> Want Us to Talk About'.> > You underestimate my patience in terms > >> of taking this issue through > to its logical conclusion. I may > >> add, that I have no pre-determined > agenda insofar as the end of > >> any discussion is concerned. I believe > in letting a discussion > >> proceed on the terms of a reasonable exchange > of ideas and > >> information, not on name-calling as a means to stone- > wall a > >> discussion and to terrorize its participants, or its audience > or > >> readership, into submission. I invite you to try and do the same > > >> for a change.> > Unfortunately for you, Mr.Durani, the issue is > >> not about whether or > not someone is 'buying' the land in Baltal. > >> The SASB is not 'buying' > the land. Its intent is to acquire the > >> land through a state enforced > fiat, on state enforced terms, at > >> state enforced prices. You cannot > call that 'buying'. You can > >> buy the land if someone is willing to > sell it, if there is a > >> perfect equality in terms between the two > parties involved in > >> the transaction, and if their desires (to buy and > sell) > >> intersect and are co-eval.> > If people are unwilling to 'sell' > >> then, the land cannot be 'bought'. > In any case, here, the legal > >> 'owner' of some of the land, happens to > be an agency of the > >> State Government, and the legal owners of the > land in question > >> happen to be several other private parties. The 800 > kanals in > >> question are a mix of Foret land, State Government owned > land, > >> and private property. (As Sonia Jabbar has pointed out > before). > >> If all the legal owners of the land are prepared to sell the > > >> land to the SASB, or to any other party, there cannot be any > > >> objection. Not even from me. That would be a straightforward and > > >> transparent transaction that is governed by the laws of how things > >> > (especially land) are bought and sold.> > And then your argument > >> that the SASB's intention to get land is > equivalent to the case > >> of any citizen of Jammu or Ladakh buying land > anywhere in J&K > >> would have some basis. I am afraid, in the absence of > sellers, > >> or their consent, there cannot be a buyer, and certainly the > > >> SASB is not a 'buyer'. Since no 'purchase' of land is either > > >> occurring, or contemplated, your argument falls flat on its face.> > >> > I might add, that It is the same issue that rears its head > >> wherever > else land acquisition by force or fraud comes up. In > >> Singur, the > Government of West Bengal, did not 'buy' the land > >> from the people who > owned the land, before passing it on the > >> Tata Group. It 'acquired' it > under the cover of a Land > >> Acquisition Act enacted through the > violence of colonial > >> oppression in 1894. (The same act, incidentally, > is used, by the > >> Indian armed forces to 'acquire' land, including > orchards and > >> fields, in J&K), Today, the West Bengal Government it > is being > >> compelled to rethink its previously unwavering posture on > the > >> matter of land acquisition. I am sure that in J&K, the patently > > >> undemocratic act of 'acquisition' of land for the SASB is bound to > >> > backfire in time on the authorities responsible for this > >> decision. It > has already cost them a great deal, it will cost > >> them more in future.> > I am very well aware of who lives in > >> Baltal. Baltal was a small > impermanent settlement generally used > >> for transhumance by nomadic > shepherds following the banks of the > >> Sindh nullah or the Romashi > rivulet on their way to Dras and > >> beyond from the Kashmir valley > through the Zoji-La Pass that has > >> grown into a small settlement. It > was traditionally never used > >> for the Amarnath Pilgrimage and came > into prominence only when > >> the possibility of helicopter services from > the area to the > >> Amarnath site became feasible. Today, it comes to > life during > >> the 'pilgrimage' season, when many of the local nomadic > Gujjars, > >> and other more sedentary Kashmiris, generally Muslim by > faith, > >> act as guides and pilgrims to the Hindu pilgrims who use the > > >> 'new' Baltal route. They are joined by Tibetan refugee and Ladakhi > >> > seasonal wool and trinket traders, who do brisk business, and > > >> volunteers or 'sevadars' from the plains who assist the pilgrims.> > >> > See - No sign of land row in Baltal by Shujaat Bukhari, in the > >> Hindu > of August 12, 2008, for more details about Baltal.> http:// > >> www.thehindu.com/2008/08/12/stories/2008081254781100.htm> (The > >> Hindu's reports on Kashmir, especially those by Praveen Swami, > > >> are items that Mr. Durani and his friends particuarly relish > >> offering > to this list. So, I am sure that he would take this > >> report with > utmost seriousness)> > The trek from Baltal climbs > >> steeply from Domail, (2 kms from the > Baltal base camp) and the > >> area is especially prone to storms and > landslides, which is why > >> there has always been an insistence on > keeping the number of > >> pilgrims low along this route. The 'overall' > figure for pilgrims > >> on the 'Baltal route' recommended by the Nitish > Sengupta > >> committee nowhere exceeds 700 pilgrims per day. This is what > the > >> committee recommended on the basis of what it thought was the > > >> possible infrastructure load that the area could accommodate, and > >> > keeping in mind reasons of health and safety of the pilgrims. > >> Nitish > Sengupta has now emerged as a voice in support of the > >> SASB's current > position of claims on the land, (though he > >> continues to maintain that > the number of pilgrims, and the > >> duration of the pilgrimage need to be > curtailed) but the one-man > >> committee report presented by him is > explicit in terms of the > >> number of pilgrims that the Baltal region > can take.> > > >> Incidentally, the head priest of Dashnami Akhara Mahant Deependra > >> > Giri the traditional custodian of the 'Cchari Mubarak' (the holy > >> > mace) and who initiates the ritual processes that inaugurate the > >> > annual pilgrimage to the Amarnath Shrine, is also of the express > >> view > that the Baltal route should be avoided as it has no > >> scriptural > sanction whatsoever.> > Here is a report quoting the > >> Mahant on his conclusion of the > pilgrimage this year.> > Mahant: > >> Reduce Yatra Period, Avoid Baltal> Kashmir Observer, August 19, > >> 2008> http://www.kashmirobserver.com/index.php? > > >> option=com_content&view=article&id=886:mahant-reduce-yatra-period- > >> > avoid-baltal&catid=50:localnews&Itemid=81> > I quote from this > >> report -> "Mahant, who resigned from the SASB over the issue of > >> extending the > duration of the yatra, had urged pilgrims not to > >> visit the cave > before the 'Vyas Purnima' and prefer the > >> traditional 46-km Pahalgam > route to the shortest 12-km Baltal > >> route for religious reasons."> > Clearly, Pawan Durani will tell > >> us that the statements made in public > fora by Kashmiri Pandits > >> based in the valley and the Mahant of the > Dashnami Akhara cannot > >> be trusted, but we must take whatever he says > on face value. > >> Durani says that people like Sanjay Tickoo are > 'hostage to the > >> terrorists'. Now he will probably say that Mahant > Deependra Giri > >> is also a 'hostage to terrorists' . A statement of > this nature > >> is serious, and unless Tickoo corroborates what Durani > says, > >> must be treated as a malicious attempt at putting words by > > >> Durani into Tickoo's mouth. I could just as easily say that Durani > >> > and the entire Panun Kashmir-Roots in Kashmir archipelago are > > >> 'hostages to state terror' but I do not believe that arguments can > >> be > made, won, or lost by such utterly pointless exchanges. We > >> must argue > on the basis of publicly verifiable statements. And > >> insofar as > publicly verifiable statements are concerned, I am > >> afraid that Durani > & Co.s insistence that they speak on behalf > >> of all Hindus in the > Kashmir valley, or all Hindus in Jammu & > >> Kashmir, or even all Hindus > in India does not hold. It gives us > >> a sense only of their exaggerated > sense of their importance and > >> their arrogance.> > Again, we cannot pretend, like Durani, that > >> the right to acquire land > is equal to the right to movement, > >> Article 370 restricts transactions > in land, not movement. The > >> right to equality operates in situations > when the same end is > >> sought by two parties. If two parties seek > movement, the right > >> to equality would mean that both have the equal > right to move. > >> If two parties seek to purchase land then the right to > equality > >> would mean that both parties have the equal right to > purchase > >> land. You cannot counterpose the conditions attendant to the > > >> right to purchase land as an objection to to the conditions that > > >> apply to the right of movement, and then invoke the right to > >> equality > as a plea in favour of a decision one way or another. > >> The right to > equality applies when the conditions are such that > >> the two entities s > can be seen as capable of brought under > >> considerations in terms of > identity (I mean identity here in a > >> logical sense, as in saying that > an apple from Himachal Pradesh > >> and an apple from Kashmir are both > identically, apples, and must > >> be considered as comparable units of > the same class). To do > >> otherwise is to offer an argument that > confuses its apples for > >> its oranges. And then says, why are apples > not being considered > >> equal to oranges.> > Finally, I find it interesting that Pawan > >> Durani should use the term > 'trespassing'. There is considerable > >> literature on how traditional > commons, became sequesterd and > >> segregated through arbitrary > invocation of 'trespassing', and > >> how the word trespass was used to > effect enclosures upon > >> hitherto existing commons. The violence of the > early history of > >> Capitalism throughout the world, is full of usages > of the word > >> 'trespass'.> > If the people of Kashmir had said to the Amarnath > >> pilgrims - "this > land is 'ours' you cannot pass through it, and > >> if you do, we shall > consider you to be 'trespassers'...' or > >> something to that effect, I > would have been spoken as much > >> against such a declaration, as I do > today against the SASB and > >> its partisans. In fact, the people of > Kashmir, including those > >> who have agitated against the land transfer, > have reiterated > >> time and again that they seek to maintain the highest > standards > >> of hospitality towards who pass through Kashmir on their > way to > >> Amarnath. It is only the protagonists of the SASB, such as our > > >> own Pawan Durani, who have no compunction in insulting that > > >> generosity by invoking the language of trespass.> > And no, I do > >> not believe that the restrictions that limit movement on > the > >> night of 25th or the 26th of January are moral. I hold them to be > >> > deeply immoral. And I also do not believe that there should be > > >> borders, or barbed wire fences along borders. I guess that makes > >> me a > trespasser. But it makes me a trespasser who has the > >> wherewithal to > buttress my words and my beliefs with a > >> sustainable argument. Like > many of those who invoke the law of > >> trespass against the passage of > common people, Pawan Durani has > >> no ethical, or reasoned argument, all > he has behind him is the > >> brutal and immoral might of the Indian state.> > I might be basing > >> my arguments on the basis of reports on what Pawan > Durani > >> characterizes as "Anti-Nationalist and Islamist" newspapers > such > >> as Greater Kashmir and Rising Kashmir. (Incidentally, They are > > >> neither "Anti Nationalist", nor do I see in them any consistently > >> > "Islamist" traces. They are not "anti-nationalist" because they > >> are > clearly sympathetic to one or the other variety of Kashmiri > >> > Nationalism. I am no doubt, an anti-nationalist, because I > >> believe > that all forms of nationalism, including Kashmiri > >> nationalism, are > ultimately detrimental to human beings, but it > >> would be unfair to > confuse me with the sources I am quoting) But > >> whatever be the case, > the instances I am quoting involve quotes > >> from Kashmiri Pandit and > non-Muslim individuals who cannot on > >> any grounds be considered > either "Anit-Nationalist", or > >> "Islamist" (They have not said they are > either, and we cannot > >> accuse people of holding political positions > that they have > >> themselves refrained from upholding). The statements > that they > >> have made, and which I have quoted, can be either > disproven, > >> which would be the case if it were shown that these people > did > >> not say these things, or they can be verified. They cannot be > > >> considered unacceptable merely because the newspaper that reported > >> > them is not of the same Ideological persuasion as Pawan Durani.> > >> > In my last posting, I had offered the possibility of considering > >> > Pawan Durani either as a fool or as a charlatan, based on a my > > >> assessment of his demonstrated ability to hold a sustained > >> argument. > This meant, that in my opinion, he either did not have > >> the > intelligence to hold on to a sustained argument by > >> reasonable means > (hence, fool), or cared not to, and was intent > >> on misleading us with > his malafide postings (hence, charlatan). > >> This reasoning was entirely > based on the form and substance of > >> his argument. I would like to > known on what basis Mr.Durani has > >> the impertinence to call me a 'neo- > convert'. What dose he think > >> I have 'converted' and that too, newly, > to? How can he even > >> think he knows what transpires in my conscience, > or what he > >> calls my 'heart' especially when, not a single argument > offered > >> by me is based on any question of faith, emotion or sentiment.> > > >> I have revised my opinion about Pawan Durani, he is clearly not a > >> > fool. He is using what Tapas Ray has referred to in his recent > >> post > as - 'human tragedies' - for all that they are worth in > >> order to > buttress a morally, ethically, rationally weak > >> position, with enough > skill not to warrant being mistaken for a > >> fool. That leaves only one > possibility.> > regards> > Shuddha> > > >> > Dear Shuddha,> > It is very obvious of what way you want the > >> discussion to end up. > > Let me> > just share with readers some > >> example.> >> > 1. Instead of replying to my post , Mr Shuddha > >> changes the subject to> > :Noorani Reads the fine print on > >> Amarnath Accord", while as the > > original> > subject line was > >> "What A.G.Noorani did not tell you".This is the first> > > >> impression to understand of how fair Shuddha would have been to > > >> > understand> > my write up, and Shuddha lived upto his reputation > >> for > > that ....perfectly.> >> > 2.When I say that every state > >> subject has an equal right to every > > inch of> > land , that > >> does not mean to buy a piece of land in Srinagar a > > Ladakhi > >> would> > have to go to Assembly to get an order passed. Mr > >> Shuddhas > > understanding of> > the sentence is very poor and > >> childish.> >> > 3.Shuddha is not aware of who lives in Baltal ? > >> His understanding > > of the> > area is based on his passionate > >> reading of anti nationalist and > > Islamist> > newspaper like > >> Greater Kashmir and Rising Kashmir. Incidentally rising> > Kashmir > >> was inaugurated by Noorani himself. What a coincidence.> >> > > >> 4.Shuddha again ignores the report of chief Wildlife warden on > > > >> allotment of> > land and like a "parrot" repeats the Hurriyat > >> language. And if this > > is how> > Shuddha loves to debate > >> without even acknowledging the report of > > those who> > are in- > >> charge of ecology and wildlife in the Baltal area , I wonder > > > >> no one> > would be able to satisfy his brain,which seems to be > >> locked for any> > reasoning.> >> > 5. What Nitish Sen Gupta had > >> wanted on priority is that on high > > grounds the> > number of > >> pilgrims should be restricted to 20000.> >> > 6. Shuddha quotes > >> that KPSS or Sanjay Tikoo wanted his > > participation. What> > > >> Shuddha does not share that Sanjay Tikoo, who happens to be a > >> close > > friend,> > is no less a hostage to the separatists. He > >> has to tow their line. > > I would> > not discuss this issue in > >> detail as this may cause harm to my already> > scared community > >> members in Kashmir. Issue like this needs a > > broader vision> > > >> which morons like Shuddha and Gautam Navlakha can not understand.> > >> >> > 7. When I was discussing the fundamental right , I wrote " > >> The > > right to> > Equality " which Shuddha very cunningly > >> altered to "Fundamental > > right to> > Movement" ... It was so > >> clever of him to change the whole context > > and to> > ignore the > >> expected discussion of how the 100 crore citizens of > > India > >> are> > being denied the right to be equal as against the state > >> subjects of > > J&K> > state. And let me remind to Mr Shuddha that > >> neither is whole of J&K > > a tribal> > place nor a forest.> >> > > >> 8. Shuddha gives a very childish and immature rhetoric statement > > >> > that the> > Amarnath accord violate the fundamental right to > >> movement > > guaranteed under> > Article 19 (A) of the Indian > >> Constitution. Does that mean> > that trespassing is no word to > >> exist. Does that mean that I can > > stroll on> > India gate lawns > >> on night between 25th and 26th January. Does that > > mean I> > > >> can stand right next to barbed wire fence on the border? Does that > >> > > mean I> > can ride my bicycle on the runway of an airport. > >> Shuddha has no > > understand> > of where the violation applies > >> and where not ?> >> > 9.Mr Shuddha may call me a fool or a > >> charlatan. It does not matter > > to me . I> > know where his > >> heart lies and what the Neo convert believes in.> >> > Pawan > >> Durani> > _________________________________________> > reader- > >> list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques > >> & Collaborations> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > >> request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header.> > To > >> unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/ > >> >> > _________________________________________> reader-list: an > >> open discussion list on media and the city.> Critiques & > >> Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > >> request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.> To > >> unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Movies, sports & news! Get your daily entertainment fix, only on > > live.com > > http://www.live.com/?scope=video&form=MICOAL > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Sep 10 11:57:07 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 11:57:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Noorani Reads the Fine Print of the Amarnath Accord In-Reply-To: <4E3DAA54-0ACB-4785-B207-48022E445E6E@sarai.net> References: <821912.19661.qm@web57211.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <6353c690809030754n46e01c85va5267b772467649f@mail.gmail.com> <13df7c120809052249j449f2d1ahdbf3c72236d07f8b@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809060001o1e15116dkb2b0502462d8bd5f@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690809060744w1aab3fb8sa79fd383ca18f25a@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70809060848l9401fcdledbad1da01dfb823@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70809061140n3f24f95cpf5ff5953a49217c@mail.gmail.com> <4E3DAA54-0ACB-4785-B207-48022E445E6E@sarai.net> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70809092327l373a9d02xf6e3446ea7d44c36@mail.gmail.com> Logic ignored ! On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 5:26 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear all, > > Here is another critique of Noorani's reading of the Amarnath Accord. > And this text is definitely pro-Accord, which it sees as the best bet > for peace in the current conditions in Jammu and Kashmir. I am not > necessarily in agreement with what this writer says. But am > forwarding it, because i think it represents a difference of opinion, > reasonably expressed. And I am always willing to respect the > reasonable, reasoned expression of an opinion that may be contrary to > mine. > > Incidentally, it appeared today in the 'Greater Kashmir' newspaper, > which has been roundly castigated in recent posts by Pawan Durani as > an 'Islamist' mouthpiece. Surely an 'Islamist' propaganda sheet would > be a little more circumspect than to publish a pro-Accord voice on > its op-ed page. > > The 'Greater Kashmir' carried both Noorani's critique, and now, this > critique of Noorani's critique. I think that this represents fair and > balanced practice, as should be normal in any newspaper, and > demonstrates that newspapers like 'Greater Kashmir' and indeed > Kashmiri fora that are broadly sympathetic to the project of the > withdrawal of Indian forces from the disputed territory, are far more > accommodative of diversity and difference within them, than they are > credited for being by their critics, including several strident > voices on this list. I hope that the next time someone forwards > something from 'Greater Kashmir' on this list, they will restrain > their tiring knee jerk abusive responses. > > regards > > Shuddha > ------------------------------------------ > > Let's look at the Agreement with an open mind so that masses are not > misled, writes B. L Koul. > Greater Kashmir, Op-Ed, September 08, 2008 > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp? > Date=8_9_2008&ItemID=5&cat=12 > > The recent agreement reached between the Jammu and Kashmir Government > panel and the Shri Amarnath Yatra Sangarash Samiti on Shri Amarnath > land row, has been path breaking in every sense of the word. The > land row and the agitations that it sparked have unfortunately > created a near regional and communal divide between Kashmir and Jammu > regions, witnessed never before. While the common man appears to be > by and large satisfied with the settlement, some debate has been seen > in Kashmir media. In private talk many people in Kashmir candidly > accept the deal as the best possible CBM in the situation. Some even > sarcastically ask as to what jammuites actually got that unleashed > celebrations there. But there is yet another extreme opinion calling > the agreement as immoral and illegal and sought to create misgivings > on the issue. Discussions are essence of a democracy and India, being > a well bloomed democratic country guaranteed to its citizens the > freedom of expression. > > A well known constitutional expert , Mr A G Noorani, has sought to > raise certain issues with regard to its legality. The learned jurist > has summarily dismissed the agreement as constitutionally invalid, > saying that the transfer of land as per the agreement with the Samiti > is contrary to the principles laid down by the Supreme Court of India > in various judgments. > > The judgment of the Supreme Court reported in (2008) 2-SCC page 229, > as mentioned by a constitutional expert while substantiating his > claim about the agreement being unconstitutional, is not relevant to > the present case. This judgment pertains to the case titled Union of > India versus S R Dingra and others, dealing with a specific service > matter. The learned expert perhaps means the judgment of Supreme > Court in the case, T N Godavarman Thirumulpad versus Union of India > and others reported in (2008) 2-SCC-Page 222. This case pertains to > the division of forest land by the Orissa Government for non-forest > use like setting up of an Alumina Refinery Project. The Supreme Court > in this judgment has observed that the Court could consider granting > of clearance to the project only if the parties including the State > of Orissa jointly agree to comply with certain modalities aimed at > rehabilitation package. In the case of land used by Shri Amarnathji > Shrine Board (SASB), the land has neither been transferred or > diverted. It has simply been set aside for use during the Yatra > period for creating temporary facilities for the pilgrims. The title > as well as the possession of the land continues with the State . > Moreover, the use of the land by the SASB is not permanent but is > restricted to Yatra period only. There is no tree on the said land > which could be cleared. Therefore, the agreement between the > Government and SAYSS does not in any way violate the Supreme Court > judgment. > > Unfortunately, a legal luminary of the status of Mr Noorani, has > gone to the extent of terming the agreement as an immoral and illegal > accord, far worse than the impugned Government Order issued on May > 26, 2008, diverting about 800 kanals of land to SASB for raising > temporary infrastructure. To prove his point he refers to the absence > of the condition for return of the land to the forest deptt as was > the case in the May 26 order. What an argument? The learned author > should care to understand that when the land is neither transferred > nor diverted to the Shrine Board, and it continues to be with the > State from where does the question arise for returning the land back > to the Forest Department . In May 26 Order, the land was diverted. It > appears that Mr Noorani is reading the clauses of the agreement in > isolation. It is a well settled rule of interpretation that a > document must be read as a whole in its context. Whenever the > question arises as to the meaning of a certain provision or a clause > in a document in its context- the context means the statute/document > as a whole. As laid down by the Apex Court, "to ascertain the meaning > of a clause in a statue, the Court must look at the whole statue, at > what precedes and at what succeeds and not merely at the clause > itself". Therefore, the clauses of the agreement have to be read and > interpreted as a whole and not in isolation or each other. It is a > fact that the words 'exclusively' and 'according to Board's > requirements from time to time' appear in clause A and D of the > agreement but these expressions have to be interpreted with clause C > which emphatically declares that the Board shall use the aforesaid > land for the duration of the Yatra andalso clause B which clearly > stipulates that proprietary status/ownership/title of the land shall > not undergo any change. > > It will be mischievous if some one talk about round the year yatra > and try to find some expression in the agreement to prove it. I think > the people of Kashmir knows very well, if not by Mr Noorani, that it > is an annual pilgrimage starting on Vyas Poornima and concluding on > the day of Sravana Poornina, which is Raksha Bandhan, hence it is > always for a specific period. How the author presumes it to be a > year long event is beyond anybody's comprehension? > > Let's try to examine the words 'exclusive' and 'the use of the land > according to Board's requirements from time to time' in their right > perspective. In the agreement, it is stated that "the State > Government shall set aside for the use by Shri Amarnathji Shrine > Board, exclusively, the land in Baltal and Domail (Compartment No. 63/ > S, Sindh Forest Division) comprising an area of 800 kanals…," The > word "set aside" and "exclusively" used in the Agreement underwrite > and emphasise the commitment of the State Government to make 800 > kanals of land available to the Shrine Board for Yatra purposes. > This commitment relates to the period of Yatra only. Therefore, seen > from another perspective, land use during the Yatra period has been > left exclusively to the Board which is mandated with the over all > responsibility of managing the Yatra. The term 'Use of > land according to Board's requirements from time to time' is again > being misrepresented. It is unfortunate that misperception is sought > to be created on two counts –first, that the Board shall be > allowed to use the land through out the year; and secondly, that > according to the Board's requirements which may change from 'time > to time' additional requirement of land may arise. Both these > conclusions are totally ill founded. The relevant extract of the > agreement is that "the aforesaid land shall be used according to the > Board's requirements, from time to time, including for the > following……". The plain reading of this extract, together with > the preamble of the Agreement which clearly states that the > entire framework of action for resolving the issues relating to use > of land relates to the period of Yatra only, indicates that the use > of land is restricted to 800 kanals only and it is only the > utilization pattern (how much of land for what purpose) that could > undergo a change according to the emerging requirements of the > Board during the period of Yatra only. > > The public opinion is being misled by terming the agreement as > 'unilateral'. What is this unilateral? Agitation was in Jammu for 62 > days and it had to be with people representing Jammu. Even then > Governor had extensive discussions with the cross section of > Kashmir's civil society including the leaders of various political > parties, social and religious groups, academicians, media persons and > other sections of the society. This exercise was aimed at getting a > precise idea of sensitivities and concerns of the Kashmir Valley. > The idea was also to clear any lingering doubts and concerns of the > people generated by the malicious propaganda about the land transfer > issue. The agreement is the reiteration of the tradition in which the > Yatra has been going on for the decades. It also takes into > consideration the sensitivities and concerns of the people of both > the regions. The agreement also allays all fears and apprehensions > about any change in the title of land besides safeguarding the > interests of local stakeholders like ponywallas, tentwallal, petty > shopkeepers. > What else could be the best deal for the people of both the regions > than this? We should mislead the people and put them on agitational > path as we already had enough of it. Lets look at the agreement with > open mind rather than with tainted glasses. > > END > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Sep 10 11:59:02 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 11:59:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?Cracking_down_on_=91violations_of_?= =?windows-1252?q?moral_code=92_in_Dakshina_Kannada?= In-Reply-To: References: <79e82f610809080007q1f894ef1xac7d81ed66c2decd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70809092329j5692a38od4949a26c64294af@mail.gmail.com> Using an article to somewhat justify Dukhtar - E- Millet..... Ignored ! On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 3:11 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear Rohan, > > Many thanks for your post. It is no secret that the reactionaries of > different denominations should see ground for natural alliances on > limited issues. Self declared Christian fundamentalist outfits have > actually often in the forefront of seeking bans on films and books in > India, just as Muslim fundamentalists have been, and they tactfully > decline to comment on Hindu fundamentalists when they do the same. > There is a 'coalition of hurt sentiments' and 'prudery' that far > outweighs the otherwise vitiated relationships between them. This is > what causes the Islamist 'Dukhtaran-e-Millat' in Kashmir to > occasionally mirror the rhetoric of their 'Durga Vahini' sisters in > India. > > Incidentally, the disruption of the Graduation exhibition at the > Faculty of Fine Arts at MS University Baroda, which was commented on > this list, involved the active participation individuals aligned with > the VHP and the Bajrang Dal in Gujarat as well as a Christian > Pentecostalist Minister by the name of Immanuel Kant. > > regards > > Shuddha > > > > > On 08-Sep-08, at 12:37 PM, Rohan DSouza wrote: > > > Dear All, > > > > This particular article on the front page of yesterday's Bangalore > > edition > > of the Hindu, caught my attention. This was for various reasons, > > the main > > one being of complete disgust in the way in which people from > > different > > communities are being forced not to interact with each other in the > > Dakshina > > Kannada district of Karnataka. > > > > When reading the report carefully, one also notices with some > > intrigue, two > > of the bed fellows of this moral brigade, ie, the right wing militant > > Bajrang Dal and Social Action Committee, a Christian organisation. > > While the > > Bajrang Dal is known to specifically target members of the Christian > > community in other parts of India, (the recent attacks in Orissa > > come to > > mind), in the instances mentioned here there is an actual coming > > together of > > interests and corresponding action, of these organisations claiming to > > represent the two communities. > > > > While I subscribe to the fact that the Bajrang Dal and the Social > > Action > > Committee cannot be seen as sole representatives of Hindu and > > Christian > > interests, it will still be worth looking at the social situation > > in this > > region, which could tolerate something like this. The Mangalorean > > Christian > > (Roman Catholic) community have been supporters of the Sangh > > organisations, > > especially the BJP. This seems to stem from the notion of their > > Brahmanical > > past (pre-conversion by the Portugese) as well as present, within the > > Christian community set up. Casteist (Hindu & Chrisitian in this case) > > feelings and bonds based on this seem to have superceded > > differences of > > religion here! Incidentally, similar notions of Brahmanical > > ancestry and > > superiority can also observed among the Syrian Christian community in > > neighbouring Kerala. > > > > The coming together of the Hindu and the Chrisitian community, as > > far as > > aggressively expressing their political, social and moral > > preferences in > > this region, have ensured members of both communities dont interact > > with > > Muslims. This seeems to be designed to polarise and communalise the > > region > > (the Gujarat model, that CM Yediyurappa fawns over, in action?). > > > > The members (ex?) of the Islamic organisation, Karnataka Forum for > > Dignity, > > also seem to be playing along with this polarisation. The result of > > which > > will probably be a splintered social situation, with the Hindus and > > Christians on one side of the divide and the Muslims on the other. > > This has > > earlier led to riots in this region and one can surely expect more. > > > > Taking advantaged of sentiments, emotions, based on actions, > > reactions and > > counter actions, seems to be the modus operandi of the three > > organisations > > mentioned in the article. > > > > Being distant as well as close, geographically and genetically, to > > Dakshina > > Kannada, has made me want to comment on this. However, this may be an > > incomplete reading of the situation. Therefore would welcome comments, > > thoughts on this. > > > > Regards, > > Rohan > > > > http://www.hindu.com/2008/09/07/stories/2008090750160100.htm > > > > *Cracking down on 'violations of moral code' in Dakshina Kannada * > > Sudipto > > Mondal * In most cases, young men and women have been targeted * — > > file > > Photo: K.R. Deepak > > > > * Watched: Young people such as these have become victims of the > > vigorously > > enforced 'moral code' in Dakshina Kannada. * > > > > MANGALORE: Self-appointed vigilante groups are cracking down on those > > "violating the moral code" in Dakshina Kannada district. Records > > with the > > district police that *The Hindu *had access to show that since the > > third > > week of July there have been 10 instances of these groups punishing > > individuals whom they perceived as having violated the moral code. > > > > Hindutva organisations such as the Bajrang Dal, a Christian > > organisation > > Social Action Committee, as well as certain individuals who were > > formerly > > with the Karnataka Forum for Dignity (KFD), have been involved in > > these > > incidents. > > > > In most of the incidents the groups have targeted young men and > > women from > > different communities who were interacting with each other. In one > > case, a > > young woman was attacked because she went to the house of a young > > woman from > > a different community. > > > > The Bajrang Dal has claimed responsibility for seven of these > > incidents. *, > > *The district head of the organisation, Sudarshan Moodabidri, > > claimed that > > the outfit had "solved" over 200 cases in the last two months where > > Hindus > > were "caught" committing the "immoral" act of interacting with > > members of > > other communities. > > > > Mr. Moodabidri said, "Sometimes it becomes necessary to use force. > > Fear of > > such action should deter such misadventures. Girls reform > > themselves once > > they are thrashed and humiliated in public, but boys are tougher to > > control." > > > > The Social Action Committee carried out a "joint operation" with > > Bajrang Dal > > activists in the city in one instance. "We will carry out more such > > strikes," its president Deepak D'Mello told *The Hindu*. > > > > Former activists of the KFD have been linked to two such cases. The > > organisation's president Abdul Aziz said that the acts were > > committed by > > delinquent members and distanced KFD from the issue. He confirmed > > that the > > organisation was against inter-community relationships but was > > averse to > > using force. > > > > The latest incident occurred on September 2 at Vittla in Bantwal > > taluk where > > activists of the Bajrang Dal assaulted a couple, Roopashree and Vikhar > > Ahmed, and paraded them in public. The same afternoon, over 60 km > > away in > > Puttur taluk, Bajrang Dal activists stormed the house of Ayesha as her > > friend Divya was visiting her. > > > > On September 1, Sugandhi and her three friends, Raghav, Anil and > > Rasheed, > > were assaulted by Bajrang Dal activists when they were at a hotel > > in the > > heart of Mangalore city. On August 24, Deepa and her fiancé Abdul > > Waheed > > were dragged out of a bus at a junction in the city and assaulted > > by Bajrang > > Dal activists. > > > > On the afternoon of August 23, Bajrang Dal activists assaulted and > > abused > > classmates Julia, Robert, Waheed, Abdul and Sunil because they were > > found > > laughing and talking loudly in a public place. > > > > On August 22, activists of the Bajrang Dal and the Social Action > > Committee > > carried out the "joint operation" against Mohammed and his classmate > > Catherine. On August 18, activists claiming to be from the KFD > > assaulted > > Dinesh and his friend Afshan at a remote village 25 km from the > > city. They > > were assaulted because Dinesh had brought medicines for Afshan who was > > suffering from malaria. > > > > On August 8, activists of the Bajrang Dal assaulted Syed, Zulfikar > > and Ameen > > with soda bottles and hooks in a bus in the heart of the city > > because they > > had carried school bags belonging to a group of Hindu girls. > > > > On July 27, activists claiming to be from the KFD attacked Govind, an > > autorickshaw driver at a village over 25 km from Mangalore because > > he often > > ferried his neighbours Uzma and Shaheen in his auto. On July 16, > > Rehman was > > heard talking and laughing loudly at a public place with his two > > friends Uma > > and Bhavya. They were assaulted and abused by Bajrang Dal activists. > > > > Superintendent of Police N. Sateesh Kumar said, "This is a social > > issue. > > Resistance to such divisive forces should come from within the > > community. In > > cases where there have been assaults we have taken the necessary > > action." > > > > (Names of the victims have been changed to protect their identity) > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From turbulence at turbulence.org Mon Sep 8 18:55:24 2008 From: turbulence at turbulence.org (Turbulence) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 09:25:24 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Turbulence Commission: "Wikireuse" by Julia Christensen Message-ID: <10f301c911b6$5c6c20c0$15446240$@org> September 8, 2008 Turbulence Commission: "Wikireuse" by Julia Christensen http://turbulence.org/works/wikireuse CALL FOR CONTRIBUTIONS For six years, Julia Christensen has been creating a body of work about how communities are reusing abandoned "big box" buildings -- the large, free-standing, warehouse-like buildings made prominent by one-stop-shopping corporations like Wal-Mart and Kmart. In 2004, she made a website about the project at www.bigboxreuse.com. "Wikireuse" both updates this website and invites users to participate in its development. Nodes on a map of the United States catalog big box reuse at geo-coded locations; users can add to the map by sending in information and/or documentation about a reused big box building near them. Articles about big box reuse are also cataloged on the website, so the user can read local accounts in local newspapers from across the country. "Wikireuse" is a 2007 commission of New Radio and Performing Arts, Inc., (aka Ether-Ore) for its Turbulence web site. It was made possible with funding from the Jerome Foundation." BIOGRAPHY Julia Christensen is an artist and writer whose work treads the fine line between art and research. She is the author of "Big Box Reuse", forthcoming from the MIT Press in November 2008. The book is a product of her ongoing investigation of how communities are renovating and reusing abandoned big box buildings. Curated by Astria Suparak, "Your Town Inc.", a solo show of Christensen's work, is at the Miller Gallery, Carnegie Mellon University until November 23, 2008. This fall, Christensen's photographs will also be on display at the Carnegie Museum of Fine Arts as a part of the show "Worlds Away: New Suburban Landscapes." Christensen also lectures widely. She holds the chair of Luce Visiting Professor of the Emerging Arts at Oberlin College, where she teaches in the Studio Arts and TIMARA (Technology in Music and Related Arts) Departments. For more Turbulence Commissions, please visit http://turbulence.org Jo-Anne Green, Co-Director New Radio and Performing Arts, Inc.: http://new-radio.org New York: 917.548.7780 . Boston: 617.522.3856 Turbulence: http://turbulence.org Networked_Performance Blog: http://turbulence.org/blog Networked_Music_Review: http://turbulence.org/networked_music_review Upgrade! Boston: http://turbulence.org/upgrade New American Radio: http://somewhere.org _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From nc-agricowi at netcologne.de Tue Sep 9 14:57:01 2008 From: nc-agricowi at netcologne.de (soundART) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2008 11:27:01 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-1?q?=5BAnnouncements=5D_call=3A_soundart?= =?iso-8859-1?q?_for_SoundLAB_IV?= Message-ID: <20080909112701.8FED544E.4993618B@192.168.0.2> SoundLAB - sonic art project environments http://soundlab.newmediafest.org informs: 1. Call: soundart for SoundLAB VI new extended deadline: 31 December 2008 2. SoundLAB V on Canariasmediafest 2008 ---------------------------------------------- 1. Call for entries: SoundLAB VI - "soundPOOL" - sound compositions - a challenge for imagination - SoundLAB is looking for its 6th edition to be launched in March 2009, sound compositions which represent a real challenge for human imagination All details, the complete call, the regulations and entry form can be found here http://www.nmartproject.net/netex/?p=242 ---------------------------------------------- 2. SoundLAB V - "soundSTORY - sound as a tool for storytelling" - launched in 2007 http://soundlab.newmediafest.org/blog/?page_id=135 50 soundSTORIES and additional soundart contributions from Spain curated by Ruben Garcia and South Africa curated by Julian Jonker will be presented on Canariasmediafest 2008 - in the section "mediaart" Las Palmas - Gran Canaria/Spain 28 October -1 November 2008 http://www.canariasmediafest.org ------------------------------------------------ SoundLAB - sonic art project environments http://soundlab.newmediafest.org corporate part of [NewMediaArtProjectNetwork]:||cologne http://www.nmartproject.net directed by Wilfried Agricola de Cologne Visit also SoundLAB I -V on - http://soundlab.newmediafest.org ----------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From info at karmayog.org Mon Sep 8 11:45:42 2008 From: info at karmayog.org (info at karmayog.org) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 11:45:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] CSR possibilities for corporates for Bihar floods Message-ID: <892BAB75C10545938190724F589CEE37@C20525105822> www.karmayog.org/biharfloods is now the most comprehensive single-point source of details of all organisations working for rescue, relief and rehabilitation in Bihar. Corporates can contact the organisations directly to understand the needs of materials and services on the ground. If your company desires to help or needs partners, do send us your plans or proposals, so as to add in this websection so that others can also help e.g. individuals. Have you seen your company's CSR rating at www.karmayog.org/csr ? From merel at mediamatic.net Mon Sep 8 19:12:01 2008 From: merel at mediamatic.net (Merel - Mediamatic) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 15:42:01 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] Mediamatic Travel BOARDING CALL 2009 Message-ID: <9270D9DE-63C0-4F33-8E60-2AA7D2168EB6@mediamatic.net> Mediamatic Travel BOARDING CALL 2009 In January 2009 Mediamatic Foundation, in collaboration with Partizan Publik, will open the very first Do It Yourself Travel Agency. Mediamatic Travel will facilitate trips to the contemporary cultural scene worldwide. Contemporary Culture is produced in many places where the general audience just imagines civil war, pyramids, famine or cheese. Mediamatic Travel will connect local operators in the arts to professional visitors from abroad and peers. The goal is to enhance visibility and promote collaboration. We’ll use 3 main channels: a global on line network, a shiny travel catalogue and an exhibition in Amsterdam, Mediamatics home base. Mediamatic Travel will be an art project itself: utilising embedded tourism to achieve a global sensory network for creative innovation. Among our first batch of destinations are Cairo, Damascus, Novosibirsk, Tbilisi, Beirut, Kabul, Durban, Dubai, Nairobi, Shenzhen, Shanghai, Mexico City, Gaza City, Istanbul, Tirana, Prague, Kyoto, Detroit and Rio de Janeiro. We are looking for key people around the world to work with us on this project. If you live in a city so exciting worth showing off, there are a number of different ways in which you can participate in Mediamatic Travel. Linking into the global cultural underground, with a climbing level of involvement, you could become a friend, an agent, a guide or operator: — Friends: Register to our site and make new friends using our social network tool. — Guides: Conjure up city tours in you city, show people your work and / or the work of people you value. — Agents: Advocate you and your city on the online network, make suggestions for people, places and venues to explore. — Operators: Organise complete full package trips to the cultural scene of your city and region. Obviously there are many more ways to collaborate and we would love to hear your input and suggestions. We want you to join the Mediamatic Travel network! Looking forward to hearing from you soon, Merel Mediamatic Travel For further information please visit www.mediamatic.net/travel or send an e-mail to travel at mediamatic.net --------------------------------------- Mediamatic --------------------------------------- Postbus 17490 --------------------------------------- 1001 JL Amsterdam -------------------------------------- The Netherlands -------------------------------------- visite: Vijzelstraat 72 --------------------------------------- t +31 (0)20 638 9901 -------------------------------------- f +31 (020) 638 7969 -------------------------------------- From info at karmayog.org Tue Sep 9 16:31:26 2008 From: info at karmayog.org (info at karmayog.org) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 16:31:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] What would be your suggestions for Shailesh Gandhi, CIC? Message-ID: <39CDE847DAFE4B479DC3FDEF4F1A239E@C20525105822> It is heartening that IITian Shailesh Gandhi has been appointed as the Chief Information Commissioner In our experience, whenever a new person takes charge of a senior post in Government, by the time that person understands the systems and how things work, their term is almost over. Hence, unless there is clarity of purpose at the start, there is a chance either of that person soon thinking from the government's point of view, and accepting the limitations of government, or of that person getting frustrated and opting to leave and work from outside the government. What would you suggest to Mr. Gandhi as targets and objectives for a year, and clear principles and non-negotiables that will help achieve these targets. Email your suggestions to him at shaileshgan at gmail.com with a copy to the group. An example is: Making public the replies to RTI applications which are not of a personal nature because any RTI application to government indicates that either that information is not easily available or that the process involved is frustrating. Hence, every government department should put up on its website, all the non-personal replies (e.g. details of open spaces in a ward, details of road repairs in a ward, etc.) that it issues, so that repeated RTI applications are not made on the same issue. Regards, Vinay www.karmayog.org -- putting together the Right Information PS: 1. If you have held public posts, do share your thoughts about his idea. 2. www.karmayog.org/biharfloods now lists 130+ initiatives. From shuddha at sarai.net Wed Sep 10 12:48:27 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 12:48:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?Cracking_down_on_=91violations_of_?= =?windows-1252?q?moral_code=92_in_Dakshina_Kannada?= In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70809092329j5692a38od4949a26c64294af@mail.gmail.com> References: <79e82f610809080007q1f894ef1xac7d81ed66c2decd@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70809092329j5692a38od4949a26c64294af@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8BCD21A0-DFEF-45BE-B371-C1EF2CC58DDC@sarai.net> Pawan, Clearly, when you WRITE, 'Ignored', and annotate your inscription with an completely meaningless note That says - > Using an article to somewhat justify Dukhtar - E- Millet..... > > You prove that you are not in fact ignoring the post. You are also demonstrating your inability, yet again, to read and understand what is unambiguous and crystal clear. I have by no means ever justified the Dukhtaran-e-Millat' , I stand clearly and unequivocally opposed to the Islamic Fundmentalism that organizations like the 'Dukhtaran-e-Millat' represent. In fact, my equating them with the 'Durga Vahini' in the context of the post below, suggests, clearly, that I find the positions and politics of both, repugnant. My point has always been that fundamentalists, no matter of which faith or persuasion, have to be criticised and confronted by anyone interested in building and maintaining a space conducive to liberty and plurality within society. If you think that by equating the Dukhtaran-e-Millat with the Durga Vahini, I am 'justifying' the Duktharan-e-Millat, I can surmise that you say so only because, to you, outfits like the 'Durga Vahini', which are self-declared enemies of cultural openness and liberty, are praiseworthy, simply because they are Hindus and Indian Nationalists, and thus, you cannot bear to have them equated with people you would consider to be politically 'untouchable' - ie Muslims and opposed to the Indian Nation State's control over Kashmir. I am opposed to the Indian states control over Kashmir, but I have absolutely no hesitation in condemning the agenda of organizations like the Dukhtaran e Millat, notwithstanding the fact that I and they, may both be interested in ending the Indian state's occupation of Kashmir, though from different ends, and for entierly different, in fact opposed, purposes. This shows that you make your judgements entirely based on a communal and secterian reading. Or, otherwise, it shows that you do not have the ability to take a consistent stand. And that your arguments actually have no ethical basis whatsoever. Please seek help, and please restrain yourself from subjecting this list to your glib one liners which demonstrate, again and again, how small and narrow the bandwidth of your intelligence and your imagination is. I remind you of the fact that by doing so, you only do yourself, and the cause that you represent, great damage. Shuddha On 10-Sep-08, at 11:59 AM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Using an article to somewhat justify Dukhtar - E- Millet..... > > > > Ignored ! > > > On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 3:11 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > wrote: > Dear Rohan, > > Many thanks for your post. It is no secret that the reactionaries of > different denominations should see ground for natural alliances on > limited issues. Self declared Christian fundamentalist outfits have > actually often in the forefront of seeking bans on films and books in > India, just as Muslim fundamentalists have been, and they tactfully > decline to comment on Hindu fundamentalists when they do the same. > There is a 'coalition of hurt sentiments' and 'prudery' that far > outweighs the otherwise vitiated relationships between them. This is > what causes the Islamist 'Dukhtaran-e-Millat' in Kashmir to > occasionally mirror the rhetoric of their 'Durga Vahini' sisters in > India. > > Incidentally, the disruption of the Graduation exhibition at the > Faculty of Fine Arts at MS University Baroda, which was commented on > this list, involved the active participation individuals aligned with > the VHP and the Bajrang Dal in Gujarat as well as a Christian > Pentecostalist Minister by the name of Immanuel Kant. > > regards > > Shuddha > > > > > > > On 08-Sep-08, at 12:37 PM, Rohan DSouza wrote: > > > Dear All, > > > > This particular article on the front page of yesterday's Bangalore > > edition > > of the Hindu, caught my attention. This was for various reasons, > > the main > > one being of complete disgust in the way in which people from > > different > > communities are being forced not to interact with each other in the > > Dakshina > > Kannada district of Karnataka. > > > > When reading the report carefully, one also notices with some > > intrigue, two > > of the bed fellows of this moral brigade, ie, the right wing > militant > > Bajrang Dal and Social Action Committee, a Christian organisation. > > While the > > Bajrang Dal is known to specifically target members of the Christian > > community in other parts of India, (the recent attacks in Orissa > > come to > > mind), in the instances mentioned here there is an actual coming > > together of > > interests and corresponding action, of these organisations > claiming to > > represent the two communities. > > > > While I subscribe to the fact that the Bajrang Dal and the Social > > Action > > Committee cannot be seen as sole representatives of Hindu and > > Christian > > interests, it will still be worth looking at the social situation > > in this > > region, which could tolerate something like this. The Mangalorean > > Christian > > (Roman Catholic) community have been supporters of the Sangh > > organisations, > > especially the BJP. This seems to stem from the notion of their > > Brahmanical > > past (pre-conversion by the Portugese) as well as present, within > the > > Christian community set up. Casteist (Hindu & Chrisitian in this > case) > > feelings and bonds based on this seem to have superceded > > differences of > > religion here! Incidentally, similar notions of Brahmanical > > ancestry and > > superiority can also observed among the Syrian Christian > community in > > neighbouring Kerala. > > > > The coming together of the Hindu and the Chrisitian community, as > > far as > > aggressively expressing their political, social and moral > > preferences in > > this region, have ensured members of both communities dont interact > > with > > Muslims. This seeems to be designed to polarise and communalise the > > region > > (the Gujarat model, that CM Yediyurappa fawns over, in action?). > > > > The members (ex?) of the Islamic organisation, Karnataka Forum for > > Dignity, > > also seem to be playing along with this polarisation. The result of > > which > > will probably be a splintered social situation, with the Hindus and > > Christians on one side of the divide and the Muslims on the other. > > This has > > earlier led to riots in this region and one can surely expect more. > > > > Taking advantaged of sentiments, emotions, based on actions, > > reactions and > > counter actions, seems to be the modus operandi of the three > > organisations > > mentioned in the article. > > > > Being distant as well as close, geographically and genetically, to > > Dakshina > > Kannada, has made me want to comment on this. However, this may > be an > > incomplete reading of the situation. Therefore would welcome > comments, > > thoughts on this. > > > > Regards, > > Rohan > > > > http://www.hindu.com/2008/09/07/stories/2008090750160100.htm > > > > *Cracking down on 'violations of moral code' in Dakshina Kannada * > > Sudipto > > Mondal * In most cases, young men and women have been targeted * — > > file > > Photo: K.R. Deepak > > > > * Watched: Young people such as these have become victims of the > > vigorously > > enforced 'moral code' in Dakshina Kannada. * > > > > MANGALORE: Self-appointed vigilante groups are cracking down on > those > > "violating the moral code" in Dakshina Kannada district. Records > > with the > > district police that *The Hindu *had access to show that since the > > third > > week of July there have been 10 instances of these groups punishing > > individuals whom they perceived as having violated the moral code. > > > > Hindutva organisations such as the Bajrang Dal, a Christian > > organisation > > Social Action Committee, as well as certain individuals who were > > formerly > > with the Karnataka Forum for Dignity (KFD), have been involved in > > these > > incidents. > > > > In most of the incidents the groups have targeted young men and > > women from > > different communities who were interacting with each other. In one > > case, a > > young woman was attacked because she went to the house of a young > > woman from > > a different community. > > > > The Bajrang Dal has claimed responsibility for seven of these > > incidents. *, > > *The district head of the organisation, Sudarshan Moodabidri, > > claimed that > > the outfit had "solved" over 200 cases in the last two months where > > Hindus > > were "caught" committing the "immoral" act of interacting with > > members of > > other communities. > > > > Mr. Moodabidri said, "Sometimes it becomes necessary to use force. > > Fear of > > such action should deter such misadventures. Girls reform > > themselves once > > they are thrashed and humiliated in public, but boys are tougher to > > control." > > > > The Social Action Committee carried out a "joint operation" with > > Bajrang Dal > > activists in the city in one instance. "We will carry out more such > > strikes," its president Deepak D'Mello told *The Hindu*. > > > > Former activists of the KFD have been linked to two such cases. The > > organisation's president Abdul Aziz said that the acts were > > committed by > > delinquent members and distanced KFD from the issue. He confirmed > > that the > > organisation was against inter-community relationships but was > > averse to > > using force. > > > > The latest incident occurred on September 2 at Vittla in Bantwal > > taluk where > > activists of the Bajrang Dal assaulted a couple, Roopashree and > Vikhar > > Ahmed, and paraded them in public. The same afternoon, over 60 km > > away in > > Puttur taluk, Bajrang Dal activists stormed the house of Ayesha > as her > > friend Divya was visiting her. > > > > On September 1, Sugandhi and her three friends, Raghav, Anil and > > Rasheed, > > were assaulted by Bajrang Dal activists when they were at a hotel > > in the > > heart of Mangalore city. On August 24, Deepa and her fiancé Abdul > > Waheed > > were dragged out of a bus at a junction in the city and assaulted > > by Bajrang > > Dal activists. > > > > On the afternoon of August 23, Bajrang Dal activists assaulted and > > abused > > classmates Julia, Robert, Waheed, Abdul and Sunil because they were > > found > > laughing and talking loudly in a public place. > > > > On August 22, activists of the Bajrang Dal and the Social Action > > Committee > > carried out the "joint operation" against Mohammed and his classmate > > Catherine. On August 18, activists claiming to be from the KFD > > assaulted > > Dinesh and his friend Afshan at a remote village 25 km from the > > city. They > > were assaulted because Dinesh had brought medicines for Afshan > who was > > suffering from malaria. > > > > On August 8, activists of the Bajrang Dal assaulted Syed, Zulfikar > > and Ameen > > with soda bottles and hooks in a bus in the heart of the city > > because they > > had carried school bags belonging to a group of Hindu girls. > > > > On July 27, activists claiming to be from the KFD attacked > Govind, an > > autorickshaw driver at a village over 25 km from Mangalore because > > he often > > ferried his neighbours Uzma and Shaheen in his auto. On July 16, > > Rehman was > > heard talking and laughing loudly at a public place with his two > > friends Uma > > and Bhavya. They were assaulted and abused by Bajrang Dal activists. > > > > Superintendent of Police N. Sateesh Kumar said, "This is a social > > issue. > > Resistance to such divisive forces should come from within the > > community. In > > cases where there have been assaults we have taken the necessary > > action." > > > > (Names of the victims have been changed to protect their identity) > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Wed Sep 10 13:20:27 2008 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 13:20:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Cholera is spreading in Chegara Message-ID: <35f96d470809100050s13a549ccue298969d7e303a8b@mail.gmail.com> cholera is spreading in Chegara struggle area. Cholera hit nearly 150 people yet. Pollution of water sources in heavy rain seems to be the reason for Cholera. The agitators are depending on Open wells in the plantation. The effort to admit 18 children in severe condition to hospital was blocked by Trade Unions on yesterday. CPI(M) has brought in their youth wing DYFI for the road blockade against the Chengara people. Today is the day of ultimatum from Trade Unions Malayalam Link Madhyamam Daily : http://www.madhyamamonline.in/news_details.asp?id=4&nid=199643&page=2 From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Wed Sep 10 13:29:35 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 13:29:35 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?Cracking_down_on_=91violations_of_?= =?windows-1252?q?moral_code=92_in_Dakshina_Kannada?= In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70809092329j5692a38od4949a26c64294af@mail.gmail.com> References: <79e82f610809080007q1f894ef1xac7d81ed66c2decd@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70809092329j5692a38od4949a26c64294af@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0809100059p6bb8199bx283ce64a2cedb9ff@mail.gmail.com> Dear Pawan, While you might exist in an Orwellian universe in which critique means justify, the rest of us do not. Shuddha is CRITIQUING the Dikhtar-e-Millat not justifying it. What is wrong with you bhai? Do you not even have the limited set of cognitive skills it requires to understand the syntaxical logic of a sentence? Thanks for posting this Rohan. Its shocking and sobering and saddeningly unsuprising. And how expectedly is the response of the police officer. The paternalistic authority of the state meets the paternalisms of community. And radhika raises some important issues. I actually think there might be something to draw hope from here, namely, that visible cracks in community and parental authority are always good. Hindi films are an excellent indication of the current fantasies that impell a generation. And the last 15 years have seen a nauseating cementing of the hindu undivided family on screen. Repression produces its own seepages, and is tripped up in its own logic. in miscegenation lies democracy and freedom:)! best Aarti On 9/10/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > > Using an article to somewhat justify Dukhtar - E- Millet..... > Ignored ! > > On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 3:11 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta >wrote: > > > Dear Rohan, > > > > Many thanks for your post. It is no secret that the reactionaries of > > different denominations should see ground for natural alliances on > > limited issues. Self declared Christian fundamentalist outfits have > > actually often in the forefront of seeking bans on films and books in > > India, just as Muslim fundamentalists have been, and they tactfully > > decline to comment on Hindu fundamentalists when they do the same. > > There is a 'coalition of hurt sentiments' and 'prudery' that far > > outweighs the otherwise vitiated relationships between them. This is > > what causes the Islamist 'Dukhtaran-e-Millat' in Kashmir to > > occasionally mirror the rhetoric of their 'Durga Vahini' sisters in > > India. > > > > Incidentally, the disruption of the Graduation exhibition at the > > Faculty of Fine Arts at MS University Baroda, which was commented on > > this list, involved the active participation individuals aligned with > > the VHP and the Bajrang Dal in Gujarat as well as a Christian > > Pentecostalist Minister by the name of Immanuel Kant. > > > > regards > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > On 08-Sep-08, at 12:37 PM, Rohan DSouza wrote: > > > > > Dear All, > > > > > > This particular article on the front page of yesterday's Bangalore > > > edition > > > of the Hindu, caught my attention. This was for various reasons, > > > the main > > > one being of complete disgust in the way in which people from > > > different > > > communities are being forced not to interact with each other in the > > > Dakshina > > > Kannada district of Karnataka. > > > > > > When reading the report carefully, one also notices with some > > > intrigue, two > > > of the bed fellows of this moral brigade, ie, the right wing militant > > > Bajrang Dal and Social Action Committee, a Christian organisation. > > > While the > > > Bajrang Dal is known to specifically target members of the Christian > > > community in other parts of India, (the recent attacks in Orissa > > > come to > > > mind), in the instances mentioned here there is an actual coming > > > together of > > > interests and corresponding action, of these organisations claiming to > > > represent the two communities. > > > > > > While I subscribe to the fact that the Bajrang Dal and the Social > > > Action > > > Committee cannot be seen as sole representatives of Hindu and > > > Christian > > > interests, it will still be worth looking at the social situation > > > in this > > > region, which could tolerate something like this. The Mangalorean > > > Christian > > > (Roman Catholic) community have been supporters of the Sangh > > > organisations, > > > especially the BJP. This seems to stem from the notion of their > > > Brahmanical > > > past (pre-conversion by the Portugese) as well as present, within the > > > Christian community set up. Casteist (Hindu & Chrisitian in this case) > > > feelings and bonds based on this seem to have superceded > > > differences of > > > religion here! Incidentally, similar notions of Brahmanical > > > ancestry and > > > superiority can also observed among the Syrian Christian community in > > > neighbouring Kerala. > > > > > > The coming together of the Hindu and the Chrisitian community, as > > > far as > > > aggressively expressing their political, social and moral > > > preferences in > > > this region, have ensured members of both communities dont interact > > > with > > > Muslims. This seeems to be designed to polarise and communalise the > > > region > > > (the Gujarat model, that CM Yediyurappa fawns over, in action?). > > > > > > The members (ex?) of the Islamic organisation, Karnataka Forum for > > > Dignity, > > > also seem to be playing along with this polarisation. The result of > > > which > > > will probably be a splintered social situation, with the Hindus and > > > Christians on one side of the divide and the Muslims on the other. > > > This has > > > earlier led to riots in this region and one can surely expect more. > > > > > > Taking advantaged of sentiments, emotions, based on actions, > > > reactions and > > > counter actions, seems to be the modus operandi of the three > > > organisations > > > mentioned in the article. > > > > > > Being distant as well as close, geographically and genetically, to > > > Dakshina > > > Kannada, has made me want to comment on this. However, this may be an > > > incomplete reading of the situation. Therefore would welcome comments, > > > thoughts on this. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Rohan > > > > > > http://www.hindu.com/2008/09/07/stories/2008090750160100.htm > > > > > > *Cracking down on 'violations of moral code' in Dakshina Kannada * > > > Sudipto > > > Mondal * In most cases, young men and women have been targeted * — > > > file > > > Photo: K.R. Deepak > > > > > > * Watched: Young people such as these have become victims of the > > > vigorously > > > enforced 'moral code' in Dakshina Kannada. * > > > > > > MANGALORE: Self-appointed vigilante groups are cracking down on those > > > "violating the moral code" in Dakshina Kannada district. Records > > > with the > > > district police that *The Hindu *had access to show that since the > > > third > > > week of July there have been 10 instances of these groups punishing > > > individuals whom they perceived as having violated the moral code. > > > > > > Hindutva organisations such as the Bajrang Dal, a Christian > > > organisation > > > Social Action Committee, as well as certain individuals who were > > > formerly > > > with the Karnataka Forum for Dignity (KFD), have been involved in > > > these > > > incidents. > > > > > > In most of the incidents the groups have targeted young men and > > > women from > > > different communities who were interacting with each other. In one > > > case, a > > > young woman was attacked because she went to the house of a young > > > woman from > > > a different community. > > > > > > The Bajrang Dal has claimed responsibility for seven of these > > > incidents. *, > > > *The district head of the organisation, Sudarshan Moodabidri, > > > claimed that > > > the outfit had "solved" over 200 cases in the last two months where > > > Hindus > > > were "caught" committing the "immoral" act of interacting with > > > members of > > > other communities. > > > > > > Mr. Moodabidri said, "Sometimes it becomes necessary to use force. > > > Fear of > > > such action should deter such misadventures. Girls reform > > > themselves once > > > they are thrashed and humiliated in public, but boys are tougher to > > > control." > > > > > > The Social Action Committee carried out a "joint operation" with > > > Bajrang Dal > > > activists in the city in one instance. "We will carry out more such > > > strikes," its president Deepak D'Mello told *The Hindu*. > > > > > > Former activists of the KFD have been linked to two such cases. The > > > organisation's president Abdul Aziz said that the acts were > > > committed by > > > delinquent members and distanced KFD from the issue. He confirmed > > > that the > > > organisation was against inter-community relationships but was > > > averse to > > > using force. > > > > > > The latest incident occurred on September 2 at Vittla in Bantwal > > > taluk where > > > activists of the Bajrang Dal assaulted a couple, Roopashree and Vikhar > > > Ahmed, and paraded them in public. The same afternoon, over 60 km > > > away in > > > Puttur taluk, Bajrang Dal activists stormed the house of Ayesha as her > > > friend Divya was visiting her. > > > > > > On September 1, Sugandhi and her three friends, Raghav, Anil and > > > Rasheed, > > > were assaulted by Bajrang Dal activists when they were at a hotel > > > in the > > > heart of Mangalore city. On August 24, Deepa and her fiancé Abdul > > > Waheed > > > were dragged out of a bus at a junction in the city and assaulted > > > by Bajrang > > > Dal activists. > > > > > > On the afternoon of August 23, Bajrang Dal activists assaulted and > > > abused > > > classmates Julia, Robert, Waheed, Abdul and Sunil because they were > > > found > > > laughing and talking loudly in a public place. > > > > > > On August 22, activists of the Bajrang Dal and the Social Action > > > Committee > > > carried out the "joint operation" against Mohammed and his classmate > > > Catherine. On August 18, activists claiming to be from the KFD > > > assaulted > > > Dinesh and his friend Afshan at a remote village 25 km from the > > > city. They > > > were assaulted because Dinesh had brought medicines for Afshan who was > > > suffering from malaria. > > > > > > On August 8, activists of the Bajrang Dal assaulted Syed, Zulfikar > > > and Ameen > > > with soda bottles and hooks in a bus in the heart of the city > > > because they > > > had carried school bags belonging to a group of Hindu girls. > > > > > > On July 27, activists claiming to be from the KFD attacked Govind, an > > > autorickshaw driver at a village over 25 km from Mangalore because > > > he often > > > ferried his neighbours Uzma and Shaheen in his auto. On July 16, > > > Rehman was > > > heard talking and laughing loudly at a public place with his two > > > friends Uma > > > and Bhavya. They were assaulted and abused by Bajrang Dal activists. > > > > > > Superintendent of Police N. Sateesh Kumar said, "This is a social > > > issue. > > > Resistance to such divisive forces should come from within the > > > community. In > > > cases where there have been assaults we have taken the necessary > > > action." > > > > > > (Names of the victims have been changed to protect their identity) > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > Raqs Media Collective > > shuddha at sarai.net > > www.sarai.net > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Wed Sep 10 13:31:09 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 13:01:09 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Breakthrough in Singur In-Reply-To: <48C5D0E0.5090307@gmail.com> References: <4FAB0460-19A7-4D6C-AA55-C4CE7FD7EAF4@sarai.net> <48C5D0E0.5090307@gmail.com> Message-ID: What went wrong in Singur and nandigram, is the basic question that needs immediate attention of all the citizens of the nation. Basically as I see it, the west bengal governance did not take the common man, farmer, farm worker in to confidence may be because it had so much more confidence on its "disciplined" cadres to do whatever it takes to oppress the opposers if they had the courage to oppose being landless. Secondly, governance did not take in to account that "compensation" fixed was adequate or otherwise was not pondered upon as the only means of livelihood of the small farners was being forcibly taken off under legal provision enacted in the days of british India. In democratic life, when we talk of freedom of right to live, the governance thought it fit to snatch lands from the most hapless and weak citizen to "industrialise" the state, and this courage of governance was further reinforced with cadres running freely the writ of the CPM with guns and bombs in the areas. Rape of a young woman to enforce that writ to forcibly enforce the taking over of the lands was a shock even to "intellect uals" of jola patti type who always talk of equality and justice. If at all, the Tatas had a better choice to take up barren lands instead of fertile lands little further down the road, but no, this zcar of modern India unlike his ancestors, who took barren lands at Mitapur or in jamshedpur has had other ideas, to make rich mans toy, small car at subsidised lands, later the price tag can be adjusted as seen in previous instance of poor mans rich car, Maruthi. When do we understand that free India, has to have inclusive growth and not exclusive growth as seen by all now. An Ambani building a home worth 20 billion with helipad, spa, swimming pool at shareholders cost, does not bother about the common man who can not even earn his meal a day, as this industrialist throws up lavish parties for the hangers on and political bosses, as the visual media covers his visit to Madam, for favours. ? Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Tapas Ray Date: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 11:39 am Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Breakthrough in Singur To: sarai list > Shuddha and others, > > Although this was definitely a victory for the people who had lost > their > land, I was wondering - as you (Shuddha) clearly were as well - > whether > the last word had been written. As they say, if it looks too good > to be > true, it probably is. That is what seems to be happening here. > > The state government shows a different face from the one Singur > had seen > until now, but as soon as the Tatas express their "distress" > (according > to the Telegraph), it "scurries to clear the air" with a > clarification, > which Mamata Banerjee quickly rejects as being contrary to the > agreement. > I do not know who is lying, but will watch to see where this goes. > > Incidentally, I have firsthand knowledge of an automobile plant in > the > USA, which makes SUVs. It occupies all of 300 acres, give or take, > whereas just the *disputed land* in Singur at present measures 400 > acres. And this is a scaled-back demand, which was for 1,000 acres > initially. > > If one wonders why Nano needs so much land, I think the answer > lies in > two areas. One, for the Tatas' stated objective of cutting > manufacturing > costs to the minimum. And two - this is my guess, as I do not know > any > details of the project - they probably want to set up a self- > sufficient > township like Tatanagar (Jamshedpur), maybe smaller because of the > proximity to Calcutta. > > By making sure that ancillaries are adjacent to the car plant, > they cut > transport costs and time to practically zero. In other words, the > farmers of Singur are subsiding the dream car of India's middle class. > > If my guess about the township is correct, that will have some > interesting consequences, too. I will share my thoughts on that > here if > I can ascertain the details. > > Tapas > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > > > > At the close of last night, the Governor of West Bengal, Gopal > > Krishna Gandhi announced that a solution acceptable to all (the > > protesting farmers at Singur and the Government of West Bengal) > has > > been found, and that Ms. Mamata Bannerjee of the Trinamool > Congress > > (one of the key protagonists of the Singur protest) would > announce > > that the agitation at Singur would be suspended. > > > > > Though it may be premature to call this 'breakthrough' a victory > for > > peasants and working people, it is certainly reason to believe > that > > not every struggle conducted by ordinary people over land, > resources > > and livelihood is doomed to failure. This news should raise the > hopes > > of all those committed to protest against unjust land > alicquisition > > and transfer moves - be they in Orissa, Haryana, Kerala, Kashmir > or > > elsewhere. > > > > I enclose below a PTI report in the Hindu that gives more > details of > > the agreement. > > > > regards, > > > > Shuddha > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From khurramparvez at yahoo.com Wed Sep 10 13:53:14 2008 From: khurramparvez at yahoo.com (Khurram Parvez) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 01:23:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Civil Society supports the Right of Self Determination of J&K people Message-ID: <701227.27749.qm@web31807.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Press Release   At a public meeting organized in Delhi by Janahastakshep, PUCL and PUDR on 9th September, speakers stressed that respecting the right of self-determination was the only way forward. It was the opinion of the speakers at the meeting that the agreement reached between the Jammu based agitation and the Indian government, through its Governor, is an appeasement of the Hindutva forces and singularly fails to follow the recommendations of the Nitish Sengupta Committee (1996) which had proposed curtailment of the Amarnath Yatra to 30 days and restricting the number of yatris to one lakh. This appeasement was compounded by the blood-letting in valley resulting in death of 50  and injury to more than 2000 persons. Moreover, repression is back in vogue with security forces singling out local leaders in the villages with arrests, beating, booking some under preventive detention act of J&K, Public Safety Act, and filing of more than 250 cases. In contrast, as part of the agreement with the agitators in Jammu persons charged with various violent acts have been allowed to go scot free and may in fact, as part of the deal struck,  be provided with compensation.  It was the considered opinion of almost all speakers that there was no basis to support Indian state's approach of military suppression accompanied by politics of manipulation and empty promises or though an election process which severely lacks credibility.   The meeting was held against the background of over two month long agitation and counter agitation in Kashmir and Jammu which  brought home Indian state's precarious hold over  J&K. In just four days on August 11-14  Indian security forces shot dead thirty two people  in Kashmir valley. The Valley saw lakhs of people coming out to protest against the blockade and for their inalienable right to exercise the right of self-determination. The people of the state groan under draconian laws like AFSPA, Disturbed Areas Act, PSA  etc and unarmed people are fired upon. Despite the unprecedented violence against the protestors in  Kashmir their quest for 'azadi' from Indian Union remained non-violent.   In contrast the agitation in Jammu, spearheaded by BJP and Congress, conducted what is essentially an anti-Muslim agitation. There was competition between the two leading parties in harnessing majority Hindu chauvinism. Their top leaders in Jammu  participated in blockade while the Congress led UPA went into a denial mode on the fact of blockade despite extensive proof of the same. The economic blockade which severely affected the life in the valley imperiled the right to life of people in the valley.  The message conveyed was that Indian State was unmindful of even the physical well-being of the people in Kashmir.   Speakers at the meeting stressed that erosion of Article 370 along with India and Pakistan resiling from their commitment to refer the matter to the people of J&K has been a major reason for the irresolution of the dispute for over 61 years. They also opined that massive and peaceful outpouring on the streets of Srinagar and elsewhere in Kashmir ought to be met with meaningful political dialogue. For this dialogue to be meaningful it ought to revolve around the right of self-determination of the people of J&K.                                                                The prominent speakers who spoke in the meeting were: Arundhati Roy, Prem Shankar Jha, Javeed Naqvi, Sanjay Kak, Dr. Aparna - CPI(ML) New Democracy, G.N. Saibaba - Revolutionary Democratic Front, Retd. Juctice Rajinder Sachar - People's Union for Civil Liberties, Gautam Navlakha - People's Union for Democratic Rights, S.A.R. Geelani - Commitee for Release of Political Prisoners    Janahastakshep, PUCL and PUDR (Delhi) 9th September, 2008 From iram at sarai.net Wed Sep 10 09:32:14 2008 From: iram at sarai.net (Iram Ghufran) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 09:32:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Fwd: Book Release: Medieval Indian Costume by the late Mrs. Roshen Alkazi Message-ID: <48C746C6.3050404@sarai.net> Subject: Book Release: Medieval Indian Costume by the late Mrs. Roshen Alkazi From: rahaab at acparchives.com To: announcements at sarai.net =================================================== Dear Friends, Please join us for the book release of the late Mrs. Alkazi's second volume on the costumes of India, entitled Medieval Indian Costume. The invitation is attached hereafter. Sincerely, Rahaab Allana Curator, Alkazi Foundation for the Arts. ==================================================== Book release of two volumes Ancient Indian Costume and Medieval Indian Costume by the late Mrs. Roshen Alkazi on Saturday 13th September 2008 at the Triveni Theatre 205 Tansen Marg at 5 pm accompanied by an Exhibition and a Talk by E Alkazi on 'The Stage Costumes of Roshen Alkazi' * Exhibition continues till 22nd August at Art Heritage 205 Tansen marg ND 1 artheritage at gmail.com _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From iram at sarai.net Wed Sep 10 09:35:47 2008 From: iram at sarai.net (Iram Ghufran) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 09:35:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Fwd: exhibition of Paintings & Sculptures Message-ID: <48C7479B.9060801@sarai.net> From: art maestros To: announcements at sarai.net ============================== art maestros Invites you to an exhibition of Paintings & Sculptures by various artists from 17th to 28th Sept. 2008 Time: 11 a.m. to 7 p.m. at D-3/3 Okhla Industrial Area Phase-II, New Delhi-110020 Kittu Arora #9313959671, #011-40503886 E-Mail Id: kittuarora65 at gmail.com ================================ _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From jha.srirang at gmail.com Wed Sep 10 14:42:56 2008 From: jha.srirang at gmail.com (srirang jha) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 14:42:56 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Rationale of Political Action in Singur Message-ID: *Rationale of Political Action in Singur* * * *Srirang Jha* So many columns and editorials in business dailies have been devoted to condemn the political action spearheaded by Trinamool Congress in Singur. Political action and farmers struggle are viewed as a nuisance for industrialization of West Bengal in particular and image of India in general. People tend to see the impact of Singur impass on the industry while ignoring the genuine concerns of the farmers. They also do not care to examine the underlying causes as to why there is always a strong opposition by the community in case of land acquisition by the State for industries or infrastructure development. Hence it is imperative to educate and sensitize the industrialists as well as the State governments hell bent on giving a fillip to industrial development rather than denigrating the local communities who are struggling for their livelihood and survival. First of all, let us understand the concept of political action, which comprises of all the tools to attain valued things. In the Singur case, land is the most valued thing that the people are struggling for. And Trinamool Congress as a political party is merely articulating and aggregating the interests of the peasants. By espousing the cause of the peasants, the party may get good number of seats in the forthcoming elections and may eventually wrest power in West Bengal from the Left Parties. So what is wrong with the policies of the Trinamool Congress? Being the leading opposition party, it has the moral obligation to struggle for the rights of the people and subsequently oust the existing government by democratic process. So the Trinamool Congress is doing nothing that can be defined as 'immoral', 'unethical' or 'anarchist'. Now the problem revolves around the rights of the people to hold land and right of the State to acquire land on the bases of the principles of eminent domain (the State has over-riding authority over its territory) and public good (the State can take harsh actions in the interest of larger good even if it amounts to hardship for a few). The rights of the people are further jeopardized by the Land Acquisition Act 1894, which vests absolute powers in the hands of the District Collectors (representing the State) so far as land acquisition and disbursement of compensation are concerned. Compensation is invariably based on discretionary powers of the District Collector who is not obliged to look at the going rate in settling the issue. The Land Acquisition Act 1894 does not provide for any rehabilitation or guarantee regarding restoration of lost source of livelihood. As a result, the victims cannot approach a court of law in case he is not satisfied with the resettlement package and compensation provided by the State. Moreover, the landless peasants are outside the ambit of any rehabilitation package, as they do not have any title of a landholding. Although the Government of India has announced a National Rehabilitation Policy for the victims of development-induced displacement or involuntary displacement, it fails to guarantee any entitlement of reconstruction of the source of livelihood. Non-implementation of the National Rehabilitation Policy can be challenged in the court of law. Hence there is an urgent need to amend the land acquisition law so as to make restoration of livelihood an entitlement. Moreover, social cost of development-induced displacement such as unemployment, disarticulation, morbidity, loss of commons, etc must also be compensated as entitlements to the project-affected people. Then probably the political action such as one spearheaded by Trinamool Congress would become irrelevant. So taking a view that politics is retarding development is absolutely out of sync in the context of Singur impasse. -- Srirang K Jha, Ph D Assistant Professor, Apeejay School of Management Dwarka, Sector 8 New Delhi 110075 From rashneek at gmail.com Wed Sep 10 15:26:47 2008 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 15:26:47 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Civil Society supports the Right of Self Determination of J&K peopl In-Reply-To: <701227.27749.qm@web31807.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <701227.27749.qm@web31807.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <13df7c120809100256x460a32c1ra8bdeb24ce956257@mail.gmail.com> Is that all they could come with up.Considering they can all cook and conjure imagination,shouldnt they have said more... On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 1:53 PM, Khurram Parvez wrote: > > > > > > Press Release > > At a public meeting organized in Delhi by Janahastakshep, PUCL and PUDR on > 9th September, speakers stressed that respecting the right of > self-determination was the only way forward. It was the opinion of the > speakers at the meeting that the agreement reached between the Jammu based > agitation and the Indian government, through its Governor, is an appeasement > of the Hindutva forces and singularly fails to follow the recommendations of > the Nitish Sengupta Committee (1996) which had proposed curtailment of the > Amarnath Yatra to 30 days and restricting the number of yatris to one lakh. > This appeasement was compounded by the blood-letting in valley resulting in > death of 50 and injury to more than 2000 persons. Moreover, repression is > back in vogue with security forces singling out local leaders in the > villages with arrests, beating, booking some under preventive detention act > of J&K, Public Safety Act, and filing of more than 250 cases. In contrast, > as part > of the agreement with the agitators in Jammu persons charged with various > violent acts have been allowed to go scot free and may in fact, as part of > the deal struck, be provided with compensation. It was the considered > opinion of almost all speakers that there was no basis to support Indian > state's approach of military suppression accompanied by politics of > manipulation and empty promises or though an election process which severely > lacks credibility. > > The meeting was held against the background of over two month long > agitation and counter agitation in Kashmir and Jammu which brought home > Indian state's precarious hold over J&K. In just four days on August 11-14 > Indian security forces shot dead thirty two people in Kashmir valley. The > Valley saw lakhs of people coming out to protest against the blockade and > for their inalienable right to exercise the right of self-determination. The > people of the state groan under draconian laws like AFSPA, Disturbed Areas > Act, PSA etc and unarmed people are fired upon. Despite the unprecedented > violence against the protestors in Kashmir their quest for 'azadi' from > Indian Union remained non-violent. > > In contrast the agitation in Jammu, spearheaded by BJP and Congress, > conducted what is essentially an anti-Muslim agitation. There was > competition between the two leading parties in harnessing majority Hindu > chauvinism. Their top leaders in Jammu participated in blockade while the > Congress led UPA went into a denial mode on the fact of blockade despite > extensive proof of the same. The economic blockade which severely affected > the life in the valley imperiled the right to life of people in the valley. > The message conveyed was that Indian State was unmindful of even the > physical well-being of the people in Kashmir. > > Speakers at the meeting stressed that erosion of Article 370 along with > India and Pakistan resiling from their commitment to refer the matter to the > people of J&K has been a major reason for the irresolution of the dispute > for over 61 years. They also opined that massive and peaceful outpouring on > the streets of Srinagar and elsewhere in Kashmir ought to be met with > meaningful political dialogue. For this dialogue to be meaningful it ought > to revolve around the right of self-determination of the people of J&K. > > The prominent speakers who spoke in the meeting were: > Arundhati Roy, Prem Shankar Jha, Javeed Naqvi, Sanjay Kak, Dr. Aparna - > CPI(ML) New Democracy, G.N. Saibaba - Revolutionary Democratic Front, Retd. > Juctice Rajinder Sachar - People's Union for Civil Liberties, Gautam > Navlakha - People's Union for Democratic Rights, S.A.R. Geelani - Commitee > for Release of Political Prisoners > > Janahastakshep, PUCL and PUDR (Delhi) > 9th September, 2008 > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- Rashneek Kher Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten Human Tragedy http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From khurramparvez at yahoo.com Wed Sep 10 19:05:01 2008 From: khurramparvez at yahoo.com (Khurram Parvez) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 06:35:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri journalists attacked Message-ID: <763206.48315.qm@web31812.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Press Release   In the aftermath of the Amarnath land controversy, members of press in Kashmir have been coming under serious attack by the personnel of CRPF and in some measure by the crowds. We have reasons to believe that the attacks happen by deliberate design of the State agencies. When the governor N N Vohra was informed about these attacks, he pleaded ignorance and, in presence of some members of press and the secretary information, instructed the Director General of Police not to let such attacks to continue.   However, to present just one instance, the attacks continued the next day, confirming our suspicion that the attacks are carried out by design. Journalists have faced irrational demands from CRPF personnel manning the streets like "you are not carrying a curfew pass for your camera." Such instances could tell volumes.   For reference, a list of journalists attacked by security forces personnel is attached. It is demanded that the process of intimidation of journalists is stopped to enable press to carry out its professional duties.   Annexure   July 05 - Raashid Wani of Sahara Samay was severely beaten by CRPF at near Jinab Sahib Shrine in Soura. The cameraman spent three days in the hospital.    August, 12 - Bashir Ahmad lone -CNN-IBN cameraman's car was fired at near Lasjan. Raashid Wani was also beaten up in the incident. PRO CRPF later exclaimed that he wonders why the guy is beaten up every time.   August, 13 - Javaid Ahmad Mir- Killed by a bullet from security forces near Bagh-e-Mehtab. He worked as a cameraman with a local cable TV channel.   August 19 - Photojournalist, Amman Farooq, of Greater Kashmir was beaten up and his arm broken by CRPF at Bypass near Qamarwari. His arm was broken.   August, 22 - Muzamil Rashid of IBN 7 was shooting at Habba Kadal when CRPF opened fire on protestors and then tried to snatch his camera. He ran away but was severely thrashed. Sheikh Umar of News 24 was also injured in the same incident.   August 24 - Bilal Bhat, Sahara Samay correspondent along with his team members stopped by CRPF at Rambagh. Even though he had a curfew pass, he was thrashed. Sustained a fracture in his rib. Team members- Jan Mohammad, Rashid Mir, Muzzaffar.   August, 24 - S. Fayaz of UNI was stopped near SMHS hospital. ``When I showed my curfew pass, the CRPF men said it is not valid anymore,'' he said. ``I turned my bike to go back but they started hitting him''.   August 24 - AFP photographer Touseef Mustafa was sent back from Lal Chowk even though he had a curfew pass. The CRPF asked him for Curfew pass of his camera and lens.   August, 24 - Jehangir Aziz of ETV and Khalid Hussain of IBN7 were beaten by CRPF near Rambagh.   August, 24 - Manoj Koul of ETV was also thrashed near Zero Bridge. He had called DIG operations, CRPF M P Nathanael, who told him that the previous curfew passes would be valid. But as he reached near old zero bridge, CRPF men thrashed him.   August 24 - Amin War of Tribune, Firdous Ahmad of News-X and Amin Bhat of NDTV were stopped near Bakshi stadium by the CRPF. The CRPF asked them to stuff their curfew passes back in their pockets and beat them up. ``The CRPF men told us that today, we will do whatever we want. No one can stop us,'' Amin War told The Indian Express.   August 25 - CRPF men patrolling the Tehsil Road in Baramulla smashed the front and back lights of the car of Mir Ehsan, correspondent Indian Express. "They had already smashed my car when they asked for the curfew pass. I had to run away to save myself."     August 24 – Umar Ganaie, a photojournalist of daily Kashmir Monitor, was thrashed by a Superintendent of Kashmir Police in SMHS hospital. The photojournalist tried to show his curfew pass but the SP tore it apart. He was also beaten up by CRPF outside when a police officer asked them to beat him.   August, 24 - The local news papers were not allowed to distribute their copies. Greater Kashmir staff came under assault when Zahoor Ahmad, Mohd. Iqbal, Ghulam Mohammad were stopped early morning at Rambagh and beaten up by CRPF men while they were carrying copies for distribution. Later in the afternoon, CRPF men thrashed three other employees of Greater Kashmir, Bashir Ahmad Dar, Mohammad Rafiq Margay and Farooq Ahmad Mir were going to their editor's place with curfew passes. In the evening, Majid Hyderi of Greater Kashmir was intimidated at Hyderpora after CRPF men checked his I-Card and curfew pass. "They abused me and did not allow me go to office," Majid said.   Rising Kashmir staff also came under assault at several places on the same day. Farooq Ahmad of distribution section of Rising Kashmir and the newspaper's system administrator, Rahil, were beaten at Batamaloo while the two were carrying newspapers for distribution.   August 25 - Asif Qureshi of Star News was stopped at Hyderpora by CRPF and beaten up. His car was also smashed while he was coming back from Airport.   August 28 - The Correspondent of Hindu in Kashmir, Shujaat Bukhari's home at Rawalpora, Srinagar was raided by security forces as they were looking for separatist leaders.   August 29 - Hakeem Irfan, Rising Kashmir correspondent, was beaten at Rainawari. "Press wale ho, isi liye maar padi (You were beaten only because you are a journalist," Irfan was told.   August 29 - The news editor of Daily Etalaat, Ishfaq Tantray was stopped near Radio Kashmir in Srinagar and beaten up. He was beaten up. "aap log hungama karte ho (you people are responsible for the problems)".   September 8: Police cops confiscated all the newspaper supply - Greater Khasmir, Etalaat, Raising Kahsmir, Kashmir Uzam etc - meant for north Kashmir at Narbal, some 15-kilometers from Srinagar. The cops also destroyed thje camera of Etalaat's photographer Sajad Raja and also threatened him. On the same day, around eight photojournalists were thrashed by J-K police and Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) in downtown city while covering a protest against the killing of a youth.    Others thrashed by CRPF   Syed Muzzaffar - Srinagar Times.   Mukhtar Ahmad - Srinagar Mail.   The mob attacks:   On August 13, the Srinagar Bureau Chief of Aaj Tak, Ashraf Wani was injured and his camera broken this morning when angry crowd attacked him inside the SMHS hospital, Srinagar.   An NDTV cameraman, Amir Bhat was also injured when people attacked his vehicle at SKIMS on August 13.   The correspondent of Daily News Analysis (DNA) Ishfaq-ul-Hassan was thrashed by people near Karan Nagar. He had earlier been stopped by police and was asked to give lift to one of their men. When people saw him carrying a policeman with him, they stopped him and started beating him.   Issued jointly by Srinagar based journalists From indersalim at gmail.com Wed Sep 10 21:59:15 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 21:59:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] SC refuses to take action against M F Husain In-Reply-To: References: <725407.94697.qm@web51410.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70809100929y50f4b282y5735bd6d199e5729@mail.gmail.com> Dear Alaxendra Thanks for reporting the sad news of Manjit Singh. The artist needs a full support from all of us. Here, by 'us' I means the saner part of the society, because those who vandalize shows in galleries on this pretext or that are finally possessing a sick mind. And those who support, or are silent about such actions are equally to be blamed. Now I visualize Bharat Mata ( untitled by artist ) Painting by MF Hussain, with a seal and stamp of Supreme Court. It is indeed an occasion to celebrate the product which has now ISI ( Indian standards institution ) mark on it. It is like a mosquito-repellent which is injurious to our lungs but it kills those insects who spread deadly disease like dengue and malaria. So, in short we need to support a Hussain, a Taslima, a Manjit Singh, a Chander Mohan in India. That is the need of hour. But how to keep the population of these right winged insects in check. Is our ('stagnant') way of living finally responsible for the growth of this fundamentalism? Or are we really stuck in some sort of rut? While voting, we, those who celebrate on SC judgment on Hussain, would vote either a congress or a Left. But isn't it true that not a single Congresswalla has ever come out boldly in support of Hussain . And we know how the The Left went terribly wrong with Taslima Nasreen's issue. Narender Modi kind of politicians are doing their business on expected lines. Now, who are these 'we' who love to call themselves 'saner' part of the society and want to be protected by Law? Are we really unwanted ? This time it is clear that the Judiciary is divided on the issue of Hussain. People in general will laugh, and the Hon arable Judges will issue orders to arrest me, if I publicly demand the immediate resignation of those High Court Judges who found 'Hussain' dangerous for our society. Because if they don't have an understanding of Art ( even if it is not art ) why do we expect some justice from them in some other cases even. Or, am I unnecessarily too worried about the rot in our Administration. We know how corrupt can be a Judge. And do we finally need a Judge to Judge a painting or a work of art ? The attack on Manjit Singh explains one thing very clearly that there are enough people in India who don't respect the Law of the Land. It is a paradox . On the list, regarding discussion on Kashmir, those who vehemently oppose the just cause of Kashmiri freedom struggle, often talk about the disrespect to the Law of Land by Kashmiri Muslims. It is interesting to note that those who strongly oppose ' Law of the Land' here criticize the other... So in this case, SC judgement on Hussain, do they have a comment on that ? With love Inder salim p.s. enjoyed to see your JUGAADOO.COM On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 11:22 AM, Alexander Keefe wrote: > > Meanwhile, the "miscreants" are at it again, this time with a rather less > exalted target. The public discourse on contemporary art in this country > seems to oscillate between two equally mythological black-box entities: "the > market" and "sentiment". I'm waiting for the article that brings them > together: "The Economics of Having Your Art Show Trashed by Hooligans". > Until then: > > http://www.thehindu.com/2008/09/10/stories/2008091061950300.htm > > *Paintings exhibition vandalised * > > NEW DELHI: A group of hooligans vandalised a paintings exhibition titled > "Kamayani" by Manjit Singh at India Habitat Centre here on Tuesday. > > Over half-a-dozen persons donning saffron scarves stormed into the > exhibition hall and smashed the paintings and raised slogans. They also > manhandled Manjit Singh who had to be taken to the All-India Institute of > Medical Sciences. The miscreants fled before the private security guards at > India Habitat Centre could reach the spot. > > A senior police officer said: "It is difficult to say which organisation was > behind the attack." > > According to Manjit Singh's son Jasvinder, a couple of visitors had made > some adverse comments on the paintings in the visitors' book on Monday, > saying the paintings were against Hindu culture. > > The four-day exhibition was to end on Tuesday. > > > On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 10:54 PM, Yousuf wrote: > > > SC refuses to take action against M F Husain > > > > NEW DELHI: The Supreme Court refused to initiate criminal proceedings > > against noted painter M F Husain for allegedly hurting public sentiments > > through some of his paintings that were dubbed as obscene. > > > > "There are many such pictures, paintings and sculptures and some of them > > are in temples also," a bench headed by Chief Justice K G Balakrishnan said, > > dismissing one such petition. > > > > The bench, also comprising Justices P Sathasivam and J M Panchal, was not > > impressed with the argument that Hussain was taking advantage of his age and > > reputation to get away with the law by painting obscene pictures. > > > > One such creation of the painter, titled Bharat Mata, was brought before > > the apex court for its scrutiny. > > > > Maharashtra-based Dwaipayan Venkateshacharya Varkhedkar had challenged a > > Delhi High Court verdict quashing the criminal proceedings initiated against > > the eminent painter in Maharashtra, Madhya Pradesh and Gujarat. > > > > Husain's paintings,depicting Bharat Mata and Hindu gods and goddesses, had > > created a furore. Husain had started receiving threats from right-wing > > groups like the VHP and the Bajrang Dal. Husain is living in a self-imposed > > exile in Dubai now. > > > > The proceedings against the painter were initiated on the basis of > > complaints filed in Panderpur (Maharastra), Rajkot (Gujarat) and Indore > > (Madhya Pradesh) claiming that his paintings were obscene and that they hurt > > public sentiments. > > > > The criminal complaints filed in various places were shifted to the Patiala > > House district courts in the Capital after the artist had approached the > > apex court. > > > > After the transfer of cases, Husain, 90, had filed a petition in the Delhi > > High Court for quashing the complaints which was allowed on May 8 this year. > > > > > > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/SC_refuses_to_take_action_against_M_F_Husain/articleshow/3459623.cms > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > -- > jugaadoo.blogspot.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From lalitambardar at hotmail.com Thu Sep 11 01:41:39 2008 From: lalitambardar at hotmail.com (Lalit Ambardar) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 20:11:39 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] 2-Amarnath Accord - What A.G.Noorani did not tell you ! In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70809092325m36688c1aqa78eabd77fec1e59@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70809070727v421bbb52x2f060e1c747529fc@mail.gmail.com> <867BED98-20C0-4F08-9E47-68537A194261@sarai.net> <97035040-D0B2-4943-AE7C-6B4796E379A0@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70809092325m36688c1aqa78eabd77fec1e59@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In the wake of the genuine concern being raised in this forum about the quality of discussions, I feel constrained in my response to an argument that is cleverly manipulated to suit a parochial mind set. The quality of discussion is bound to deteriorate when there is a propensity to manipulate & mislead. Mr. Shuddhabrata Sengupta, in response to my set of observations on AG Noorani’s rhetoric you have chosen to discuss only one regarding the limit on the ‘number’ of pilgrims. You have also cited ‘Gomukh' as an example. In the over all context of the hue & cry raised by Kashmiri pan Islamists over Amarnath land transfer on the propaganda of cultural & demographic invasion, the ‘pollution of Ganga’ is in no way related to Amarnath pilgrimage. The issues highlighted by WWF, (in that DNA report) if seen, as you appear to be suggesting, in a generalised form, then in that case these will also be applicable to Vaishno Devi , Hazratbal shrine or say Ajmer Sherife or to the holy City of Mecca or Vatican. Any type of large congregation is likely to be a burden on the eco system in one way or the other. A lake side shrine will add to the pollution of the lake & ferrying of large number of pilgrims consumes fuel energy that is responsible for carbon emissions etc. etc. Now if you are proposing measures to limit ‘pilgrim numbers’ to all these & other holy places too across the board & across the world then one could understand your concern about the endangered over all eco system of the mother Earth. In such a situation you could also demand a ban on eating poultry & other live stock consumption in the valley because you know it well how animal husbandry is also a huge burden on the eco system. Now I am sure you will be annoying SAS Jilliani who has also been quoting Gomukh out of context to justify his allergy to ‘Amarnath pilgrimage’ because it is seen as an impediment in his quest for ‘azadi- bara e- Islam’. You could also propose a ban on tourism or suggest a limit on the number of tourists to Kashmir to check the pollution levels in the valley. And that Gondola ride in Gulmarg heights? Why not propose a limit on the number of vehicles plying on the highway, as well. Now there is a risk- you could be accused of advocating economic blockade. All other points you have deliberately ignored by conveniently referring to your irrelevant response to Mr. Pawan Durani. It is quite difficult to be convincing when the baggage of allegiance becomes apparent in the argument. If there is a genuine concern for the general Kashmiri masses, let no one mislead them, please. They have already suffered enough at the hands of their own bunch of unscrupulous ‘so called leaders’ .Just imagine when the poor Kashmiri Muslims were provoked to be in the streets of Srinagar to oppose the Amarnath land transfer on the propaganda of cultural & demographic invasion first & economic blockade & killing of Muslims in Jammu later, these double speak Kashmiri pan Islamists managed to get themselves detained in their own respective homes. It is unfortunate that a section of the intellectual mind set has become a party to the continued suffering of ordinary Kashmiri masses. Regards all. LA PS: Response is also awaited on the quoted article of A.G.Noorani in my last post. It should not be difficult to trace the references in the archives. LA --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 11:55:49 +0530> From: pawan.durani at gmail.com> To: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] 2-Amarnath Accord - What A.G.Noorani did not tell you !> > Dear Mr. Lalit Ambardar,> You may discuss with people who would buy the argument of Hight Court or the> Chief Warden in-charge of Wildlife and ecology.> > What do you do with those who ignore the both ?> > However you would helpless in case of those who would compare London with> Lahore.> > Pawan> > On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 3:58 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote:> > > Dear Lalit Ambardar,> >> > Many thanks for your post in response to A.G.Noorani's reading of the> > Amarnath accord. I have addressed much of the substance inherent in> > the points raised by you in my recent exchange with Pawan Durani, so> > will not repeat myself here.> >> > There is one point that you make that does however need attention.> > You say -> >> > "Where else in the country has a limit been put on the number of> > pilgrims? Why pick on Amarnath yatra please?"> >> > There are very good ecological reasons to put limits on the number of> > pilgrims to Amarnath, and to restore the limited extent of pilgrim> > traffic, through the traditional (non-Baltal) route, as was always> > the case before the Government of India and several right wing Hindu> > formations decided to project that Amarnath Yatra as a 'national'> > cause in the 1990s. There also exist excellent precedents for this> > decision.> >> > Limits have in fact been put on the number of pilgrims in the case of> > the Gomukh Yatra in Uttarakhand, the source of the Ganga, considered> > to be one of the holiest pilgrimage sites in Hinduism, in order to> > protect the fragile high altitude ecology of the Gangotri-Gomukh> > Glacier Zone. I have walked to the Gomukh glacier, and I have seen> > with my own eyes the extent of damage caused by unlimited pilgrim> > traffic.> >> > here is a report on the Uttarakhand government's decision in the DNA> > Newspaper of May 24, 2008> > http://news.indiainfo.com/> > 2008/05/24/0805241136_uttarakhand_govt_sounds_red_alert_on_ganga.html> >> > The 'land hunger' of the Sabarimala Temple Board in Kerala (the> > Sabarimala Temple is located adjacent to a forest zone) has also come> > in for criticism from environmentalists. I had referred to this in my> > very first posting on the Amarnath Issue on this list, on the 30th of> > June, 2008.> >> > http://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/2008-June/013162.html> >> > In this posting, I had made an argument to try and see the Amarnath> > issue not as a Kashmir or a Faith Centric issue but in terms of a> > question of what happens when state endorsed agencies, sometimes> > under the garb of faith, attempt to arrogate land to themselves. I> > had deliberately talked of instances in Kerala, as a parallel to the> > situation in Kashmir, in order to show that at its core, the Amarnath> > 'Land Transfer' issue has more mundane engines than faith or> > questions of so called 'national integrity'.> >> > I enclose below a copy of two DNA Reports on the Uttarakhand> > Government's decision to prohibit pilgrim traffic, and allow only> > restricted trekking access to Gomukh for the next five years for your> > perusal.> >> > regards> >> > Shuddha> > ------------------------------------> > Uttarakhand govt sounds red alert on Ganga> > Ashwin Aghor, DNA Mumbai, Saturday, May 24, 2008> >> > Mumbai: Taking serious note of the warning by World Wide Fund for> > nature (WWF) about the Ganges being one of the most polluted and> > highly endangered rivers in the world, the Uttarakhand government has> > decided to take measures to save the river.To start with, the> > government has declared Gomukh, the origin of the Ganga, out of> > bounds for the general public.> >> > The Gangajal Nature Foundation, a city-based non governmental> > organisation (NGO) has been instrumental in conservation of the river> > and had undertaken various projects to identify risks to the holy river.> >> > "It is better late than never. The ban on entry of the general public> > to Gomukh is a good decision taken by the government of> > Uttarakahand," said Vijay Mudshingikar of the Foundation.> >> > The WWF released a report about the status of 10 major rivers in the> > world. The report, released on the occasion of World Water Day in> > 2007 came as a major blow to India as the Ganga and Indus rivers were> > listed among the 10 most endangered rivers in the world.> >> > "It was a shocking revelation as in the name of religion and faith,> > we have virtually ruined these rivers," Mudshingikar said.> >> > The Foundation began a survey of the Ganga from its origin to the> > point where it meets the Bay of Bengal in 2001. On the basis of the> > outcome of the survey that ended in 2006, the Foundation started a> > general awareness campaign all over the country. The NGO's efforts> > coupled with the WWF report led the government to ban the entry of> > the general public, including the Kavad Yatra to Gomukh, for the next> > five years.> >> > "We will implement the ban in total. A notice to this effect has been> > put up at the base camp. All trekking expeditions will also be> > allowed only with prior permission of the central government," said> > JK Unial, incharge of the Gangotri National Park.> >> > He said that around 15 organisations are actively involved in> > organising treks to Gomukh and lakhs of people visit the place during> > the Kavad Yatra. But all this will be stopped within three months,> > Unial added.> >> > The biggest problem for the administration is Lalbaba Ashram situated> > at Bhojvasa. "An eviction notice has been served to the ashram,"> > Unial said. The state government has also closed all dhabas along the> > road to Gomukh.> >> > "People should support the government of Uttarakahand in its efforts> > to save Gomukh. It is now established that the glacier is receding at> > an alarming rate of 40 metres per year. If not checked in time,> > within a few decades, it will cross the China border," Mudshingikar> > said.> >> > According to the survey conducted by Geological Survey of India,> > Lucknow, the glacier was receding at the rate of 10 metres per year> > between 1935 and 1956. But it increased to 27-30 metres per year> > between 1956 and 1990.> >> > Source : DNA> >> > ==========> >> > Unclean Ganga> > May 24, 2008> > http://epaper.dnaindia.com> >> > India's holiest river has shrunk. According to the Geological Survey> > of India, the Gomukh glacier, the mouth of the Ganga, is receding at> > the alarming rate of 40m a year. If it is not checked now, within a> > few decades the glacier would have crossed the Chinese border. Of> > course, the recession has been known since early last century, but> > the Uttarakhand government's move to protect Gomukh is welcome, even> > if it is a little late. The state has decided to stop all pilgrimage> > and tourist traffic to the site for the next five years. Treks will> > also be monitored.> >> > The immediate catalyst for this move is a World Wide Fund for Nature> > warning that the Ganga is one of the most polluted and endangered> > rivers in the world. For centuries, many people and all Hindus have> > believed in the purity and power of the water of the river. Some> > scientists have tried to prove that a small microbe that lives in its> > waters kept it clean. Be that as it may, the river has not been able> > to withstand the onslaught of increasing waste, mineral and> > industrial being thrown into it. As the river flows from the> > mountains to the plains and all the way to the sea at Hooghly, it is> > the receptacle of flowers, human bodies and who knows what else.> > Popular mythology says the river managed to cure itself; science> > today puts the river under threat.> >> > The Uttarakhand government has taken a very wise if unpopular> > decision - the Gangotri Yatra is much sought-after by Hindu pilgrims> > and trekkers. The non-government organisation which has lobbied with> > the government to save the river is hopeful that people will> > appreciate and understand the need for the ban.> >> > This is not, of course, the first Save Ganga campaign that this> > country has seen, but it can only be hoped that it will be more> > successful than the others. Rajiv Gandhi's ambitious plan to save the> > mighty river did not yield the results it was expected to. Rivers in> > India - all variously sacred - have also been routinely mistreated.> > Some, like the Brahmaputra, show their fury often. Others like the> > once-majestic Jamuna have become placid and therefore are vanishing.> > The Narmada is being parcelled out. Even the modest Mithi showed its> > anger at being turned into a drain in the Mumbai floods of 2005. They> > all need help. The reasons why are so important that they do not bear> > repeating. At the crux of human civilisation is riverine culture.> >> > Raj Kapoor's film Ram Teri Ganga Maili was not about endangerment> > through pollution of this kind, but the title could well be a> > rallying cry for a country which has taken its rivers and its> > religion very seriously, but has long forgotten to give back what it> > has taken away.> >> >> >> > On 08-Sep-08, at 3:54 AM, Lalit Ambardar wrote:> >> > > In case the discussion is still on AG Noorani's article consisting> > > of baseless allegations that are only meant to mislead the> > > Kashmiri Muslim masses then please note the following point wise> > > rebuttal to Noorani's rhetoric( did not check mail & missed Pawan> > > Durani's elaborate post while I had already prepared the note,> > > therefore, would still like to share) :> > > 1. The mass movement in Jammu was against the Govt. rescind order.> > > Therefore, the accord had to be between the SASS & the govt.> > > only .The Kashmiri Islamists who refuse to recognise the law of the> > > land had rendered themselves redundant. In any case Govt. did not> > > bother to consult people of Jammu either when the land transfer> > > order was revoked under pressure from the Kashmiri Islamists. Jammu> > > & Kashmir continues to be a single entity; therefore, Jammuites as> > > state subjects have equal right on Kashmir province as well.> > > Mischievous role of the Kashmiri Muslim leaders in spreading> > > canards of cultural & demographic invasion to mislead the masses is> > > ignored by Noorani. Why?> > > 2. There is nothing wrong in the using the term 'exclusive' unless> > > there is a sinister design behind the objection. The fact is that> > > the land is to be used is for putting up the facilities along the> > > Hindu pilgrimage route.> > > Baltal route has been in use for years now. In any case why should> > > any body object to a particular route to the shrine? There are> > > portions along Pahalgam route also which are quite dangerous.> > > Where else in the country has a limit been put on the number of> > > pilgrims? Why pick on Amarnath yatra please? In any case the local> > > service providers are always happy with the greater number as> > > obviously it adds to their income.> > > 3. How does article 19(1) D get violated by merely allotting the> > > land 'exclusively' for the yatra? Unless there is a sinister desire> > > to disrupt the yatra. It could be only a sick man's idea to imagine> > > misuse of yatra for 'political' & not 'religious' purposes.> > > Politics at those uninhabitable heights??? The idea probably stems> > > from the post Friday congregations in Kashmir where anti India> > > venom is spewed routinely.> > > 4. Arrangements are always made before & not during the event or> > > pilgrimage.> > > 5. Ownership of land doesn't change. Hence article 370 isn't> > > violated. Aren't Hindus of J& K entitled for equal rights in J&K.?> > > 6. Payment for land use sounds like imposition of "jazia".> > > Otherwise who pays whom? How are Kashmniri Muslims affected by the> > > waver? It is ironic that when the Kashmiri Islamists were up in the> > > arms against the land transfer in Kashmir, Delhi CM laid the> > > foundation stone of a multi billion dollar Haj House that is to be> > > fitted with most advanced facilities in Dwarka & no questions are> > > asked.> > > 7. It is preposterous to propose fine against water pollution &> > > against causing damage to the forests on the Hindu pilgrims in a> > > secular India. Where else is this being done in India or abroad?> > > Why is this assumed that Hindus are philistine? Sonia Jabber had> > > earlier in HT also observed sarcastically that the pilgrims> > > preferred "lota & woods". I wonder what local Muslims do. Do they> > > use mobile lavatories? And what did Sonia Jabber do on the treck?> > > Why pick on Hindu pilgrims please?> > > Why not talk about shrinking Dal Lake & Jehlum that is more> > > pertinent. At least Kashmiri Hindus haven't contributed any waste> > > to the rivers & lakes fro the past almost two decades since their> > > ethnic cleansing in the valley 19 years ago.> > > 8. Why is there silence over the illegality of the rescind order> > > which was issued after the PDP withdrawal. There is no arrangement> > > like 'minority govt' in the J&K constitution.> > > How can you on the one hand espouse openly the cause of Kashmiri> > > pan Islamic separatists who do not believe in the law of the land &> > > on the other talk of 'legal efficacy' as well as 'moral political> > > legitimacy'???> > > Why cry foul over aid to the Jammu protestors who fought for a> > > just demand when the Govt. has also been giving aid to the families> > > of terrorists besides giving compensation to the protestors in> > > Kashmir as well. We did not hear AG Noorani scream when SAS Jillani> > > who openly demands merger of Kashmir with Pakistan ( Azadi bara e> > > Islam) was airlifted in a state owned aircraft from Ranchi jail to> > > Mumbai for treatment a couple of years ago.> > > LA> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------> > > -------------------------------------------------------> > >> > >> From: shuddha at sarai.net> Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 22:13:51 +0530> To:> > >> pawan.durani at gmail.com> CC: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re:> > >> [Reader-list] 2-Amarnath Accord - What A.G.Noorani did not tell> > >> you !> > Dear Pawan Durani, dear all,> > I am grateful, Mr.Durani,> > >> for your post in response to my reply, > and I am equally happy to> > >> conduct this discussion under any heading, > be it, 'What> > >> A.G.Noorani Did Not Tell You' or 'What Pawan Durani > Does Not> > >> Want Us to Talk About'.> > You underestimate my patience in terms> > >> of taking this issue through > to its logical conclusion. I may> > >> add, that I have no pre-determined > agenda insofar as the end of> > >> any discussion is concerned. I believe > in letting a discussion> > >> proceed on the terms of a reasonable exchange > of ideas and> > >> information, not on name-calling as a means to stone- > wall a> > >> discussion and to terrorize its participants, or its audience > or> > >> readership, into submission. I invite you to try and do the same >> > >> for a change.> > Unfortunately for you, Mr.Durani, the issue is> > >> not about whether or > not someone is 'buying' the land in Baltal.> > >> The SASB is not 'buying' > the land. Its intent is to acquire the> > >> land through a state enforced > fiat, on state enforced terms, at> > >> state enforced prices. You cannot > call that 'buying'. You can> > >> buy the land if someone is willing to > sell it, if there is a> > >> perfect equality in terms between the two > parties involved in> > >> the transaction, and if their desires (to buy and > sell)> > >> intersect and are co-eval.> > If people are unwilling to 'sell'> > >> then, the land cannot be 'bought'. > In any case, here, the legal> > >> 'owner' of some of the land, happens to > be an agency of the> > >> State Government, and the legal owners of the > land in question> > >> happen to be several other private parties. The 800 > kanals in> > >> question are a mix of Foret land, State Government owned > land,> > >> and private property. (As Sonia Jabbar has pointed out > before).> > >> If all the legal owners of the land are prepared to sell the >> > >> land to the SASB, or to any other party, there cannot be any >> > >> objection. Not even from me. That would be a straightforward and >> > >> transparent transaction that is governed by the laws of how things> > >> > (especially land) are bought and sold.> > And then your argument> > >> that the SASB's intention to get land is > equivalent to the case> > >> of any citizen of Jammu or Ladakh buying land > anywhere in J&K> > >> would have some basis. I am afraid, in the absence of > sellers,> > >> or their consent, there cannot be a buyer, and certainly the >> > >> SASB is not a 'buyer'. Since no 'purchase' of land is either >> > >> occurring, or contemplated, your argument falls flat on its face.>> > >> > I might add, that It is the same issue that rears its head> > >> wherever > else land acquisition by force or fraud comes up. In> > >> Singur, the > Government of West Bengal, did not 'buy' the land> > >> from the people who > owned the land, before passing it on the> > >> Tata Group. It 'acquired' it > under the cover of a Land> > >> Acquisition Act enacted through the > violence of colonial> > >> oppression in 1894. (The same act, incidentally, > is used, by the> > >> Indian armed forces to 'acquire' land, including > orchards and> > >> fields, in J&K), Today, the West Bengal Government it > is being> > >> compelled to rethink its previously unwavering posture on > the> > >> matter of land acquisition. I am sure that in J&K, the patently >> > >> undemocratic act of 'acquisition' of land for the SASB is bound to> > >> > backfire in time on the authorities responsible for this> > >> decision. It > has already cost them a great deal, it will cost> > >> them more in future.> > I am very well aware of who lives in> > >> Baltal. Baltal was a small > impermanent settlement generally used> > >> for transhumance by nomadic > shepherds following the banks of the> > >> Sindh nullah or the Romashi > rivulet on their way to Dras and> > >> beyond from the Kashmir valley > through the Zoji-La Pass that has> > >> grown into a small settlement. It > was traditionally never used> > >> for the Amarnath Pilgrimage and came > into prominence only when> > >> the possibility of helicopter services from > the area to the> > >> Amarnath site became feasible. Today, it comes to > life during> > >> the 'pilgrimage' season, when many of the local nomadic > Gujjars,> > >> and other more sedentary Kashmiris, generally Muslim by > faith,> > >> act as guides and pilgrims to the Hindu pilgrims who use the >> > >> 'new' Baltal route. They are joined by Tibetan refugee and Ladakhi> > >> > seasonal wool and trinket traders, who do brisk business, and >> > >> volunteers or 'sevadars' from the plains who assist the pilgrims.>> > >> > See - No sign of land row in Baltal by Shujaat Bukhari, in the> > >> Hindu > of August 12, 2008, for more details about Baltal.> http://> > >> www.thehindu.com/2008/08/12/stories/2008081254781100.htm> (The> > >> Hindu's reports on Kashmir, especially those by Praveen Swami, >> > >> are items that Mr. Durani and his friends particuarly relish> > >> offering > to this list. So, I am sure that he would take this> > >> report with > utmost seriousness)> > The trek from Baltal climbs> > >> steeply from Domail, (2 kms from the > Baltal base camp) and the> > >> area is especially prone to storms and > landslides, which is why> > >> there has always been an insistence on > keeping the number of> > >> pilgrims low along this route. The 'overall' > figure for pilgrims> > >> on the 'Baltal route' recommended by the Nitish > Sengupta> > >> committee nowhere exceeds 700 pilgrims per day. This is what > the> > >> committee recommended on the basis of what it thought was the >> > >> possible infrastructure load that the area could accommodate, and> > >> > keeping in mind reasons of health and safety of the pilgrims.> > >> Nitish > Sengupta has now emerged as a voice in support of the> > >> SASB's current > position of claims on the land, (though he> > >> continues to maintain that > the number of pilgrims, and the> > >> duration of the pilgrimage need to be > curtailed) but the one-man> > >> committee report presented by him is > explicit in terms of the> > >> number of pilgrims that the Baltal region > can take.> >> > >> Incidentally, the head priest of Dashnami Akhara Mahant Deependra> > >> > Giri the traditional custodian of the 'Cchari Mubarak' (the holy> > >> > mace) and who initiates the ritual processes that inaugurate the> > >> > annual pilgrimage to the Amarnath Shrine, is also of the express> > >> view > that the Baltal route should be avoided as it has no> > >> scriptural > sanction whatsoever.> > Here is a report quoting the> > >> Mahant on his conclusion of the > pilgrimage this year.> > Mahant:> > >> Reduce Yatra Period, Avoid Baltal> Kashmir Observer, August 19,> > >> 2008> http://www.kashmirobserver.com/index.php? >> > >> option=com_content&view=article&id=886:mahant-reduce-yatra-period-> > >> > avoid-baltal&catid=50:localnews&Itemid=81> > I quote from this> > >> report -> "Mahant, who resigned from the SASB over the issue of> > >> extending the > duration of the yatra, had urged pilgrims not to> > >> visit the cave > before the 'Vyas Purnima' and prefer the> > >> traditional 46-km Pahalgam > route to the shortest 12-km Baltal> > >> route for religious reasons."> > Clearly, Pawan Durani will tell> > >> us that the statements made in public > fora by Kashmiri Pandits> > >> based in the valley and the Mahant of the > Dashnami Akhara cannot> > >> be trusted, but we must take whatever he says > on face value.> > >> Durani says that people like Sanjay Tickoo are > 'hostage to the> > >> terrorists'. Now he will probably say that Mahant > Deependra Giri> > >> is also a 'hostage to terrorists' . A statement of > this nature> > >> is serious, and unless Tickoo corroborates what Durani > says,> > >> must be treated as a malicious attempt at putting words by >> > >> Durani into Tickoo's mouth. I could just as easily say that Durani> > >> > and the entire Panun Kashmir-Roots in Kashmir archipelago are >> > >> 'hostages to state terror' but I do not believe that arguments can> > >> be > made, won, or lost by such utterly pointless exchanges. We> > >> must argue > on the basis of publicly verifiable statements. And> > >> insofar as > publicly verifiable statements are concerned, I am> > >> afraid that Durani > & Co.s insistence that they speak on behalf> > >> of all Hindus in the > Kashmir valley, or all Hindus in Jammu &> > >> Kashmir, or even all Hindus > in India does not hold. It gives us> > >> a sense only of their exaggerated > sense of their importance and> > >> their arrogance.> > Again, we cannot pretend, like Durani, that> > >> the right to acquire land > is equal to the right to movement,> > >> Article 370 restricts transactions > in land, not movement. The> > >> right to equality operates in situations > when the same end is> > >> sought by two parties. If two parties seek > movement, the right> > >> to equality would mean that both have the equal > right to move.> > >> If two parties seek to purchase land then the right to > equality> > >> would mean that both parties have the equal right to > purchase> > >> land. You cannot counterpose the conditions attendant to the >> > >> right to purchase land as an objection to to the conditions that >> > >> apply to the right of movement, and then invoke the right to> > >> equality > as a plea in favour of a decision one way or another.> > >> The right to > equality applies when the conditions are such that> > >> the two entities s > can be seen as capable of brought under> > >> considerations in terms of > identity (I mean identity here in a> > >> logical sense, as in saying that > an apple from Himachal Pradesh> > >> and an apple from Kashmir are both > identically, apples, and must> > >> be considered as comparable units of > the same class). To do> > >> otherwise is to offer an argument that > confuses its apples for> > >> its oranges. And then says, why are apples > not being considered> > >> equal to oranges.> > Finally, I find it interesting that Pawan> > >> Durani should use the term > 'trespassing'. There is considerable> > >> literature on how traditional > commons, became sequesterd and> > >> segregated through arbitrary > invocation of 'trespassing', and> > >> how the word trespass was used to > effect enclosures upon> > >> hitherto existing commons. The violence of the > early history of> > >> Capitalism throughout the world, is full of usages > of the word> > >> 'trespass'.> > If the people of Kashmir had said to the Amarnath> > >> pilgrims - "this > land is 'ours' you cannot pass through it, and> > >> if you do, we shall > consider you to be 'trespassers'...' or> > >> something to that effect, I > would have been spoken as much> > >> against such a declaration, as I do > today against the SASB and> > >> its partisans. In fact, the people of > Kashmir, including those> > >> who have agitated against the land transfer, > have reiterated> > >> time and again that they seek to maintain the highest > standards> > >> of hospitality towards who pass through Kashmir on their > way to> > >> Amarnath. It is only the protagonists of the SASB, such as our >> > >> own Pawan Durani, who have no compunction in insulting that >> > >> generosity by invoking the language of trespass.> > And no, I do> > >> not believe that the restrictions that limit movement on > the> > >> night of 25th or the 26th of January are moral. I hold them to be> > >> > deeply immoral. And I also do not believe that there should be >> > >> borders, or barbed wire fences along borders. I guess that makes> > >> me a > trespasser. But it makes me a trespasser who has the> > >> wherewithal to > buttress my words and my beliefs with a> > >> sustainable argument. Like > many of those who invoke the law of> > >> trespass against the passage of > common people, Pawan Durani has> > >> no ethical, or reasoned argument, all > he has behind him is the> > >> brutal and immoral might of the Indian state.> > I might be basing> > >> my arguments on the basis of reports on what Pawan > Durani> > >> characterizes as "Anti-Nationalist and Islamist" newspapers > such> > >> as Greater Kashmir and Rising Kashmir. (Incidentally, They are >> > >> neither "Anti Nationalist", nor do I see in them any consistently> > >> > "Islamist" traces. They are not "anti-nationalist" because they> > >> are > clearly sympathetic to one or the other variety of Kashmiri> > >> > Nationalism. I am no doubt, an anti-nationalist, because I> > >> believe > that all forms of nationalism, including Kashmiri> > >> nationalism, are > ultimately detrimental to human beings, but it> > >> would be unfair to > confuse me with the sources I am quoting) But> > >> whatever be the case, > the instances I am quoting involve quotes> > >> from Kashmiri Pandit and > non-Muslim individuals who cannot on> > >> any grounds be considered > either "Anit-Nationalist", or> > >> "Islamist" (They have not said they are > either, and we cannot> > >> accuse people of holding political positions > that they have> > >> themselves refrained from upholding). The statements > that they> > >> have made, and which I have quoted, can be either > disproven,> > >> which would be the case if it were shown that these people > did> > >> not say these things, or they can be verified. They cannot be >> > >> considered unacceptable merely because the newspaper that reported> > >> > them is not of the same Ideological persuasion as Pawan Durani.>> > >> > In my last posting, I had offered the possibility of considering> > >> > Pawan Durani either as a fool or as a charlatan, based on a my >> > >> assessment of his demonstrated ability to hold a sustained> > >> argument. > This meant, that in my opinion, he either did not have> > >> the > intelligence to hold on to a sustained argument by> > >> reasonable means > (hence, fool), or cared not to, and was intent> > >> on misleading us with > his malafide postings (hence, charlatan).> > >> This reasoning was entirely > based on the form and substance of> > >> his argument. I would like to > known on what basis Mr.Durani has> > >> the impertinence to call me a 'neo- > convert'. What dose he think> > >> I have 'converted' and that too, newly, > to? How can he even> > >> think he knows what transpires in my conscience, > or what he> > >> calls my 'heart' especially when, not a single argument > offered> > >> by me is based on any question of faith, emotion or sentiment.> >> > >> I have revised my opinion about Pawan Durani, he is clearly not a> > >> > fool. He is using what Tapas Ray has referred to in his recent> > >> post > as - 'human tragedies' - for all that they are worth in> > >> order to > buttress a morally, ethically, rationally weak> > >> position, with enough > skill not to warrant being mistaken for a> > >> fool. That leaves only one > possibility.> > regards> > Shuddha> >> > >> > Dear Shuddha,> > It is very obvious of what way you want the> > >> discussion to end up. > > Let me> > just share with readers some> > >> example.> >> > 1. Instead of replying to my post , Mr Shuddha> > >> changes the subject to> > :Noorani Reads the fine print on> > >> Amarnath Accord", while as the > > original> > subject line was> > >> "What A.G.Noorani did not tell you".This is the first> >> > >> impression to understand of how fair Shuddha would have been to >> > >> > understand> > my write up, and Shuddha lived upto his reputation> > >> for > > that ....perfectly.> >> > 2.When I say that every state> > >> subject has an equal right to every > > inch of> > land , that> > >> does not mean to buy a piece of land in Srinagar a > > Ladakhi> > >> would> > have to go to Assembly to get an order passed. Mr> > >> Shuddhas > > understanding of> > the sentence is very poor and> > >> childish.> >> > 3.Shuddha is not aware of who lives in Baltal ?> > >> His understanding > > of the> > area is based on his passionate> > >> reading of anti nationalist and > > Islamist> > newspaper like> > >> Greater Kashmir and Rising Kashmir. Incidentally rising> > Kashmir> > >> was inaugurated by Noorani himself. What a coincidence.> >> >> > >> 4.Shuddha again ignores the report of chief Wildlife warden on > >> > >> allotment of> > land and like a "parrot" repeats the Hurriyat> > >> language. And if this > > is how> > Shuddha loves to debate> > >> without even acknowledging the report of > > those who> > are in-> > >> charge of ecology and wildlife in the Baltal area , I wonder > >> > >> no one> > would be able to satisfy his brain,which seems to be> > >> locked for any> > reasoning.> >> > 5. What Nitish Sen Gupta had> > >> wanted on priority is that on high > > grounds the> > number of> > >> pilgrims should be restricted to 20000.> >> > 6. Shuddha quotes> > >> that KPSS or Sanjay Tikoo wanted his > > participation. What> >> > >> Shuddha does not share that Sanjay Tikoo, who happens to be a> > >> close > > friend,> > is no less a hostage to the separatists. He> > >> has to tow their line. > > I would> > not discuss this issue in> > >> detail as this may cause harm to my already> > scared community> > >> members in Kashmir. Issue like this needs a > > broader vision> >> > >> which morons like Shuddha and Gautam Navlakha can not understand.>> > >> >> > 7. When I was discussing the fundamental right , I wrote "> > >> The > > right to> > Equality " which Shuddha very cunningly> > >> altered to "Fundamental > > right to> > Movement" ... It was so> > >> clever of him to change the whole context > > and to> > ignore the> > >> expected discussion of how the 100 crore citizens of > > India> > >> are> > being denied the right to be equal as against the state> > >> subjects of > > J&K> > state. And let me remind to Mr Shuddha that> > >> neither is whole of J&K > > a tribal> > place nor a forest.> >> >> > >> 8. Shuddha gives a very childish and immature rhetoric statement >> > >> > that the> > Amarnath accord violate the fundamental right to> > >> movement > > guaranteed under> > Article 19 (A) of the Indian> > >> Constitution. Does that mean> > that trespassing is no word to> > >> exist. Does that mean that I can > > stroll on> > India gate lawns> > >> on night between 25th and 26th January. Does that > > mean I> >> > >> can stand right next to barbed wire fence on the border? Does that> > >> > > mean I> > can ride my bicycle on the runway of an airport.> > >> Shuddha has no > > understand> > of where the violation applies> > >> and where not ?> >> > 9.Mr Shuddha may call me a fool or a> > >> charlatan. It does not matter > > to me . I> > know where his> > >> heart lies and what the Neo convert believes in.> >> > Pawan> > >> Durani> > _________________________________________> > reader-> > >> list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques> > >> & Collaborations> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-> > >> request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header.> > To> > >> unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list>> > >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> >> > _________________________________________> reader-list: an> > >> open discussion list on media and the city.> Critiques &> > >> Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-> > >> request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.> To> > >> unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > > _________________________________________________________________> > > Movies, sports & news! Get your daily entertainment fix, only on> > > live.com> > > http://www.live.com/?scope=video&form=MICOAL> > > _________________________________________> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > > Critiques & Collaborations> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > subscribe in the subject header.> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> > Shuddhabrata Sengupta> > The Sarai Programme at CSDS> > Raqs Media Collective> > shuddha at sarai.net> > www.sarai.net> > www.raqsmediacollective.net> >> >> > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Want to explore the world? Visit MSN Travel for the best deals. http://in.msn.com/coxandkings From lalitambardar at hotmail.com Thu Sep 11 02:15:23 2008 From: lalitambardar at hotmail.com (Lalit Ambardar) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 20:45:23 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] The Land Deal in Kashmir In-Reply-To: <4fcaee300809090046t215608a9s5e2aaa79eaa95e@mail.gmail.com> References: <4fcaee300809090046t215608a9s5e2aaa79eaa95e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: It is very unfortunate that the learned professors & others have chosen to support the brazen intolerance that was exhibited in the streets of Srinagar over the propaganda of cultural invasion & demographic change to oppose the transfer of a mere 100 acres of land for the purpose of development of temporary facilities for the pilgrims along the arduous Amarnth pilgrimage route. J & K continues to be a single entity & Kashmiri Pandits though in 19th year of their forced exile from the valley & the people of jammu can not be denied justice to please & pamper those who believe & declare publicly 'azadi bara e Islam' . With due regards to all the professors & other signatories of the irresponsible statement LA ................................................................................................................................................................................ > Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 13:16:07 +0530> From: waliarifi3 at gmail.com> To: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: [Reader-list] The Land Deal in Kashmir> > 9TH September 2008> > > > PRESS STATEMENT> > The Land Deal in Kashmir:> > A Dangerous Surrender to the Jammu Agitators> > > > We the undersigned academics, and others express grave concern> at how the dispute over grant of land to the Amarnath Board in Kashmir is> being handled by our political authorities. Over four weeks the agitators in> Jammu were allowed by the administration to impose a blockade of Kashmir,> which, despite official denials practically continued till the end of> August. Those whom Mr LK Advani and others call "nationalists", committed> crime, arson and mayhem in Jammu, while waving the national flag. They have> themselves proved to the most effective separatists since they entirely> separated Kashmir from the rest of the country, and tried to starve out the> people of the very area they are never tired of pronouncing an integral part> of India. By allowing them to do so and by making concession after> concession to them the Government of India cannot escape the stigma of> colluding with them. When on the other hand, driven to desperation, the> people of Kashmir valley protested against the blockade, as many as forty> persons were shot dead by the military, para-military and police forces. In> the talks with the Jammu agitators through an all-party delegation headed by> the Home Minister, the agitators secured the exclusion of the> representatives of the Kashmir parties (PDP and NC) despite an invitation> issued to them. No compensation for those killed and injured by army and> police firings in the Kashmir valley has been so far announced, in contrast> to what was done swiftly in Jammu. And now the final act of collusion with> the Jammu agitators has taken place, by the revocation of the Governor's own> order of 29 June and the re-allotment of the 800 kanals of land> "exclusively" to the Amarnath Shrine Board. The agreement was announced at a> "joint" press conference of the Governor's representative and the Jammu> agitators on 31 August. The deal's details made it clear that limitation to> "the duration of yatra" is a mere formality, since no power is given to the> Government of Jammu and Kashmir over how the Shrine Board deals with the> land "from time to time". It is also clear that the special concessions,> under paras 9 and 10 of the agreement, about withdrawal of cases and> compensation to agitators are confined to Jammu and not made applicable to> the Kashmir Division.> > No persons sincerely interested in opposing the movement for Kashmir's> secession can support this deal, which is naturally seen in Kashmir as an> unjust and provocative act. If we wish to retain Kashmir as part of our> country we should stop treating the Kashmiri people as aliens and let them> decide what to do with their land. We therefore call upon all> fellow-citizens to join us in demanding a revocation of the deal and the> establishment of a proper rule of law in the whole State of Jammu and> Kashmir.> > Professor R.S. Sharma (Patna)> > Professor Suvira Jaiswal (Hyderabad)> > Professor Keshavan Veluthat (Mangalore)> > Professor R.L. Shukla (Delhi)> > Professor Irfan Habib (Aligarh)> > Professor H.C. Satyarthi (Muzaffarpur)> > Professor Shireen Moo svi (Aligarh)> > Professor D.N. Jha (Delhi)> > Professor Pradeep Saxena (Aligarh)> > Professor Iqtidar Alam Khan (Aligarh)> > Dr Ramesh Rawat (Aligarh)> > Professor Sayera I. Habib (Aligarh)> > Dr Prabhat Shukla (New Delhi)> > Dr S. Ali Nadeem Rezavi (Aligarh)> > Professor Rajan Gurukkal (Mangalore)> > Dr Shamim Akhtar (Aligarh)> > > > Released by> > > > IRFAN HABIB> > Professor Emeritus, AMU> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Movies, sports & news! Get your daily entertainment fix, only on live.com http://www.live.com/?scope=video&form=MICOAL From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Thu Sep 11 12:01:03 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 11:31:03 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Civil Society supports the Right of SelfDetermination of J&K people In-Reply-To: <701227.27749.qm@web31807.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <701227.27749.qm@web31807.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Khurram, what is it there to self determine about Jammu and Kasmir. ? For sixty one years the citizens of the state got best of both the worlds, being democratic, liberties and licenses to behave responsibly and irresponsibly, got all the development from democratic nation, that is India, and now you want to be islamic and want to join Pakistan, forgetting that these citizens in the state, were /have come to majority in numbers by chasing out others in the state. ! Sixty one years enough sacrifices have been made by the nation, its soldiers and its citizens from the national exchequer to keep the good health of separatists in the state. Now, if you want self determination, vacate Kashmir, go to pakistan, islamic state, you will know how mohajirs are treated there. ! ----- Original Message ----- From: Khurram Parvez Date: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 2:11 pm Subject: [Reader-list] Indian Civil Society supports the Right of SelfDetermination of J&K people To: SARAI > > > > > > Press Release >   > At a public meeting organized in Delhi by Janahastakshep, PUCL and > PUDR on 9th September, speakers stressed that respecting the right > of self-determination was the only way forward. It was the opinion > of the speakers at the meeting that the agreement reached between > the Jammu based agitation and the Indian government, through its > Governor, is an appeasement of the Hindutva forces and singularly > fails to follow the recommendations of the Nitish Sengupta > Committee (1996) which had proposed curtailment of the Amarnath > Yatra to 30 days and restricting the number of yatris to one lakh. > This appeasement was compounded by the blood-letting in valley > resulting in death of 50  and injury to more than 2000 persons. > Moreover, repression is back in vogue with security forces > singling out local leaders in the villages with arrests, beating, > booking some under preventive detention act of J&K, Public Safety > Act, and filing of more than 250 cases. In contrast, as part > of the agreement with the agitators in Jammu persons charged with > various violent acts have been allowed to go scot free and may in > fact, as part of the deal struck,  be provided with > compensation.  It was the considered opinion of almost all > speakers that there was no basis to support Indian state's > approach of military suppression accompanied by politics of > manipulation and empty promises or though an election process > which severely lacks credibility. >   > The meeting was held against the background of over two month long > agitation and counter agitation in Kashmir and Jammu which >  brought home Indian state's precarious hold over  J&K. In just > four days on August 11-14  Indian security forces shot dead thirty > two people  in Kashmir valley. The Valley saw lakhs of people > coming out to protest against the blockade and for their > inalienable right to exercise the right of self-determination. The > people of the state groan under draconian laws like AFSPA, > Disturbed Areas Act, PSA  etc and unarmed people are fired upon. > Despite the unprecedented violence against the protestors in  > Kashmir their quest for 'azadi' from Indian Union remained non- > violent. >   > In contrast the agitation in Jammu, spearheaded by BJP and > Congress, conducted what is essentially an anti-Muslim agitation. > There was competition between the two leading parties in > harnessing majority Hindu chauvinism. Their top leaders in Jammu >  participated in blockade while the Congress led UPA went into a > denial mode on the fact of blockade despite extensive proof of the > same. The economic blockade which severely affected the life in > the valley imperiled the right to life of people in the valley. >  The message conveyed was that Indian State was unmindful of even > the physical well-being of the people in Kashmir. >   > Speakers at the meeting stressed that erosion of Article 370 along > with India and Pakistan resiling from their commitment to refer > the matter to the people of J&K has been a major reason for the > irresolution of the dispute for over 61 years. They also opined > that massive and peaceful outpouring on the streets of Srinagar > and elsewhere in Kashmir ought to be met with meaningful political > dialogue. For this dialogue to be meaningful it ought to revolve > around the right of self-determination of the people of J&K. >                                                                > The prominent speakers who spoke in the meeting were: > Arundhati Roy, Prem Shankar Jha, Javeed Naqvi, Sanjay Kak, Dr. > Aparna - CPI(ML) New Democracy, G.N. Saibaba - Revolutionary > Democratic Front, Retd. Juctice Rajinder Sachar - People's Union > for Civil Liberties, Gautam Navlakha - People's Union for > Democratic Rights, S.A.R. Geelani - Commitee for Release of > Political Prisoners  >   > Janahastakshep, PUCL and PUDR (Delhi) > 9th September, 2008 > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From ambarien at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 11 08:10:35 2008 From: ambarien at yahoo.co.uk (ambarien qadar) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 02:40:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Conference on hate and violence Message-ID: <318354.44907.qm@web25501.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: ambarien al qadar Date: Sep 11, 2008 8:02 AM Subject: Fwd: Conference on hate and violence To: ambarien at gmail.com Dear Friends, You are cordially invited to a two-day conference on "Experience of Hate and Cultures of Violence" organized by the Centre for Psychoanalytic Studies, University of Delhi, on the 11th and 12th of September at India International Centre. Regards, Ashok Nagpal Director, CPS & Professor, Department of Psychology, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007, India _________________________________________________________________________ Conference Schedule THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 11, 2008. Registration: 9.30 am to 10.00 am Inaugural Session 10.00 am: Welcome and Opening remarks Mallika Akbar & Ashok Nagpal 10:05 am: Inaugural Address Pavan Verma 10:20 am: Keynote Address: Thoughts on Hate and Violence Sudhir Kakar First Session: Chair and Moderator: Richard Hertel 11: 00 am: Rage, Hate and Revenge: Individual and Group Perspectives Salman Akhtar 11:50 am: Discussion 12:00 pm: Tea Second Session: Chair and Moderator: Arup Ghoshal 12:15 pm: Destruction of Culture, Destruction of Meaning and Representation Leopold Nosek 1:05 pm: Discussion 1:15 pm: Lunch Third Session: Chair and Moderator: Salman Akhtar 2:15 pm: Panel Discussion: Hatred and Psychosocial Ramifications to 4.00 pm M.J.Akbar, Leopold Nosek, Shobna Sonpar, Monisha Nayar & Jane Warren FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 12, 2008 Fourth Session: Chair and Moderator: Monisha Nayar 10:00 am: The Making of a Terrorist: Some Psychosocial Speculations... Stuart Twemlow 10:50 am: Discussion Fifth Session: Chair and Moderator: Jane Warren 11:10 am: Unfolded Repetitive Cycle of Hatred, Violence and Hope: A Reflection on the Palestinian-Israeli Conflict. Adib Jarrar 12:00 pm: Discussion 12:15 pm: Lunch Final Session: Chair and Moderator: Sudhir Kakar 1:15 pm: Panel Discussion: Transformations of Hate in Clinical and Social Contexts Adib Jarrar, Honey Oberoi, Javed Alam, Salman Akhtar, Stuart Twemlow, Richard Hertel, 2:45 pm : Concluding Remarks by Chair _________________________________________________________________________ Biography of speakers: M.J. Akbar Mobashar Jawed (MJ) Akbar is an eminent journalist. He has been the editor-in-chief of several newspapers including The Asian Age, Deccan Chronicle, Sunday, and The Telegraph. His books include Blood Brothers, an exploration of the complex interface between Muslims and Hindus over the last 150 years, The Shade of Swords: Jihad and the Conflict between Islam & Christianity and a biography of Jawaharlal Nehru: The Making of a Nation. Other books include Behind the Vale, India: The Siege Within, Riot After Riot and a collection of his articles, Byline. Salman Akhtar Salman Akhtar, M.D., is Professor of Psychiatry at Jefferson Medical College and Training and Supervising Analyst at the Philadelphia Psychoanalytic Institute. Dr. Akhtar is the recipient of the Journal of the American Psychoanalytic Association's Award (1995) and the Margaret Mahler Literature Prize (1996), and was named the1998 Clinician of the Year by IPTAR, New York. Dr. Salman Akhtar is the author of numerous books, including New Clinical Realms: Pushing the envelope of Theory and Technique, The Three Faces of Mourning: Melancholia, Manic Defense, and Moving On, and Objects of Our Desire: Exploring Our Intimate Connections with the Things Around Us. He is also an author of Broken Structures: Severe Personality Disorders and Their Treatment (1992) and Quest for Answers: A Primer for Understanding and Treating Severe Personality Disorders (1995), as well as five volumes of poetry. His more than 130 scientific publications also include thirteen edited or co-edited books, and extensive journal editing credits. Javed Alam Professor Javed Alam is currently the Chair person of the Indian Council for Social Science Research. He has been a Professor of Political Science at Himachal University, a Senior Fellow at the Centre for the Study of Developing Societies and Centre for English and Foreign Languages, Hyderabad. He has worked extensively on Intergroup conflict from a perspective of Social Equity and Justice. Arup Ghoshal Arup Ghoshal is Professor & Head, Department of Applied Psychology, University of Calcutta and Secretary of the Indian Psycho-analytical Society. He is an active member of the Rehabilitation Council of India that regulates the training policies and programmes in the field of rehabilitation of persons with disabilities. Along with being faculty at the Calcutta University, he also works as a rehabilitation Psychologist. Richard K. Hertel Richard K. Hertel received his Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology from The University of Michigan. He is a graduate analyst of the Michigan Psychoanalytic Institute. He is on the faculty of the University of Michigan Psychiatry Department and the Michigan Psychoanalytic Institute and is in private practice in Ann Arbor. Since 2004 he has chaired a discussion group, "Trauma in the Transference" at the American Psychoanalytic Association Bi-Annual meetings. In 2005 he chaired an International Psychoanalytic Congress Panel entitled, "DID and Trauma". He has two ongoing local discussion groups, one concerning the psychotherapy process and one concerning "Trauma in the Transference". Dr. Hertel also chaired a panel of the recent International Psychoanalytic Congress meetings in Rio entitled "Trauma and Dissociative States". He presented a paper, "Visual Impairments and Emergent Character Defenses" at the Michigan State Foundation 140th Annual Scientific Meeting in Troy, Michigan in 2005. Adib Jarrar Adib Jarrar is a Palestinian independent organisational development consultant and clinical psychologist based in Paris and working internationally. Born and raised in Israel he pursued D.E.S.S. in clinical psychology and psychopathology from the Université de Franche Comté in Besançon, France. He is currently pursuing his Doctorate in psychoanalysis and management. He has special interest in the areas of conflict resolution, collective trauma work, the role and impact of collective memories of atrocities on the psyche and politics, identity and unresolved issues. He's associated with Tavistock Group Relations model in Europe, the USA, Cuba, the Caribbean, and Israel. For the last 3 years, Mr. Jarrar has divided his time between Paris and East Jerusalem, providing consultation work and training for Palestinian organisations. He is a Professional Associate both with the Tavistock Institute and the Grubb Institute, London, and is a member of the Board of Advisors for Treatment & Rehabilitation Center for Victims of Torture (TRC), Ramallah, Palestine. Sudhir Kakar Sudhir Kakar is a psychoanalyst and writer based in Goa, India. Dr. Sudhir Kakar is the author of numerous books, including the most recent, Mad and Divine: Spirit and Psyche in the Modern World, The Inner World, Shamans, Mystics, And Doctors, Tales of Love, Sex And Danger, Intimate Relations, The Colors Of Violence, The Analyst And The Mystic, The Indians and Culture And Psyche. Sudhir Kakar has been a visiting Professor at several international universities. He is currently Adjunct Professor of Leadership at INSEAD in Fontainbleau, France and has received several distinguished honours at both the national and international levels. Monisha Nayar Monisha Nayar, Ph.D. trained at Michigan Psychoanalytic Institute and now practices in Philadelphia. She is presently the faculty member at Psychoanalytic Center of Philadelphia. She is interested in issues of cultural diversity, psychic trauma, neuropsychoanalysis and transformations of play during child therapy and analysis. Dr. Nayar works with individuals, couples and families and specializes in rehabilitation of the neurologically impaired and trauma work. She has written and presented on additional topics from a psychoanalytic perspective, including the role of religious icons and mythological figures as used within the context of traumatic experiences. Leopold Nosek Leopold Nosek, MD is a psychiatrist and psychoanalyst in Sao Paulo, Brazil.. He has served as the President of the Brazilian Psychoanalytic Society of Sao Paulo and as the President of the Brazilian Psychoanalytic Federation. He has been active in the IPA (International Psychoanalytical Association) and was a Member of its House of Delegates. He was also the Editor of the IPA Newsletter, and of the IDE Magazine of the Sao Paulo Psychoanalytical Society and of several FEPAL publications. His papers have appeared in books and journals in Portugese, English, and Spanish. He organized the exhibit Freud: Conflict and Culture in Sao Paulo and Rio de Janeiro and was the Curator of the exhibits Psychoanalysis and Modernism in Brazil and Freud and Judaism in these two cities. Dr. Nosek was a political prisoner for 10 months in 1971 during the Brazilian military dictatorship Among his recent publications is Terror in everyday life: re-visiting Mr. Kurtz (2003). Honey Oberoi Honey Oberoi is a Reader in Psychology at the University of Delhi. Her Phd on Lives in Exile: Tibetan Refugees and Their Inner World is to be published shortly by Routledge. Her interests include Psychoanalysis, Buddhism and Engaged Social Activism. She is particularly interested in the development of a low cost psychodynamic psychotherapy for India. Shobna Sonpar Shobna Sonpar has been a practicing clinical psychologist in Delhi. She received her Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology (India) and did her post-doctoral internship in counseling from University of California. She was a lecturer in Clinical Psychology, Department of Psychiatry, Tribhuvan University Teaching Hospital, Kathmandu, Nepal. She has recently published Violent Activism: A Psychosocial study of ex Militants in Jammu and Kashmir. Pavan K. Varma Pavan K. Varma, the eminent writer and diplomat, is currently the Director General of the Indian Council for Cultural Relations, New Delhi. In addition to his diplomatic assignments in various countries, including USA and Russia, he has also been High Commissioner of India to Cyprus as well as Director of the Nehru Centre in London. Pavan K. Varma has established a name for himself as a writer of depth and insight. His first book was the highly successful and critically applauded biography of the Urdu poet Mirza Ghalib, Ghalib: The Man, The Times. His other books include the much-discussed Havelis of Old Delhi, Krishna: The Playful Divine a book on India 's most popular deity, and an epic poem on two of the central characters of the Mahabharata, Yudhishtar and Draupadi. His first book on a contemporary subject was the path-breaking The Great Indian Middle Class. Translated into several Indian languages, the book was an instant bestseller, and remains the focus of discussion and debate even today. This book was followed by another successful book Being Indian: The Truth About Why the 21st Century Will Be India's. The Japanese, Spanish and French translations of this book were very well-received, and a Portuguese version is on the way. Being Indian has also had extremely successful runs in its Hindi and Urdu editions; the book is currently being translated into Bengali. 2004 also saw the release of Love and Lust: An Anthology of Erotic Literature from Ancient and Medieval India. Stuart W. Twemlow Dr. Stuart W. Twemlow is Professor of Psychiatry, Menninger Dept. Psychiatry, Baylor School of Medicine, Houston, Texas and a faculty member of the Houston-Galveston Psychoanalytic Institute. He is the Medical Director of the HOPE unit for Treatment Refractory Adults at the Menninger Clinic. He has co-edited a collection of articles on analytic work with violence in the community: Analysts in the Trenches: Streets, Schools & War Zones, and another entitled The Future of Prejudice: Applications of Psychoanalytic Understanding toward its Prevention. His latest book with Frank Sacco is entitled Why School Antibullying Programs Don't Work Well. He is a founding editor and Editor-in-Chief with Nadia Ramzy, PhD., of The International Journal of Applied Psychoanalytic Studies, and is President of The International Association for Applied Psychoanalytic Studies. He has also co-authored a book on out-of-body and near-death experiences entitled, With the Eyes of the Mind. Dr. Twemlow has practiced meditation and the martial arts for over 40 years. He practices and teaches meditation and black ink brush painting and has exhibited, sold and published his brush paintings. best, Ambarien From ambarien at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 11 08:33:29 2008 From: ambarien at yahoo.co.uk (ambarien qadar) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 03:03:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Fw: [vikalp] Fwd: [Fwd: H-ASIA: Mumbai issues fellowship, Urban Design Research Institute] Message-ID: <472447.34243.qm@web25504.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> --------- Forwarded message ---------- Urban Design Research Institute Research Fellowship on contemporary urban issues and concerns of Mumbai ************ ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ********* ****** From: udri researchfellowship The Urban Design Research Institute (UDRI), announces a new Research Fellowship Programme to provide young scholars, researchers and independent practitioners the opportunity to do research on contemporary urban issues and concerns of Mumbai. This programme is supported by the Sir Ratan Tata Trust (SRTT) grant. Research Fellows shall be given a monthly stipend and professional allowance of Rs. 20000. They shall also be provided with working space and requisite infrastructure at the UDRI studio. In addition UDRI will facilitate discussions with relevant resource persons in the field and assist in the publication of research findings. Support will also be available to the fellows for post-research advocacy. The research period can vary between 6 to18 months depending on the project scope and deliverables. Applicants shall demonstrate the relevance of the proposed research to the city of Mumbai/Mumbai Metropolitan Region and the feasibility of accompanying the research goal within the stipulated period. *Suggested Areas of research:* *Alternative Histories and Conceptualizations: * Research on Alternative histories that encompass the Economy of the City, Governance and Administration, Housing in the City, Actors, organizations and Development Practice, Architecture of the City and New City Concepts conceptualizing Urban infrastructure, the Urban Informal Sector, Urban Peripheries, the Global City Landscapes, etc. *Urban Projects:* Research related to review of one or more important urban project / project type with various details of its development. Suggested themes could include Mill Land Redevelopments, New Townships, Waterfronts Redevelopment, Heritage Conservation, Urban Conservation, Public Space Conservation, Environmental Conservation, Urban Infrastructure, Slum Resettlement and Redevelopment, Special Economic Zones, Multiplexes, Shopping Malls, Call Centres, etc. *Urban Practices:* Research related to elaborations on one or more actor / agency, their contexts, their strategies/tactics, their actions, their impacts etc on the development processes of the city. Suggested topics include practices of Local Government, State, Politicians, Media, Community Based Organizations, NGOs dealing with the Environment, with Poverty and other NGOs, Academia, Financial Institutions, Judiciary, Private Architectural and Planning Practices, Multinational Agencies, etc. *Policy Review:* Research related to elaborations on one or more policy that has significantly shaped the city. Possible topics may include the Regional Plan, Development Plan, Development Control Regulations, Housing Policy, Rent Control Act, Heritage Conservation Guidelines, Urban Land Ceiling Act, Floor Space Index, Slum Resettlement and Redevelopment, Slum Rehabilitation Act, Transferable Development Rights mechanism, CESS, etc. *City Geographies: * Research related to documentation of one or more geographical or institutional area within the city, which among others, could cover areas of City Administration, Public Spaces, Open spaces and Environmentally Sensitive Areas, Industrial City and Old Suburbs, Fort and Native City, Railway Stations and Markets, BEST, WR & CR, Slums, City Peripheries, the New Suburbs, etc. *Dates* Last date for receipt of application | 15.10.08 Tentative date of interview | 15.12.08 *Eligibility Requirements* · Applicants should have a bachelors/masters degree in architecture or planning, and equivalent published work (or) Masters degree in geography or social sciences and equivalent published work · High proficiency in English language and preferably Hindi and Marathi - Should be eligible for leave of absence, if employed. Applications shall be addressed to the Executive Director, UDRI submitted by email at researchfellowship@ udri.org with a covering letter, a full CV, two letters of reference and a research proposal of approximately ten pages in A4 size (double spaced). For further details contact: Urban Design Research Institute 43 Dr V.B. Gandhi Marg, Kala Ghoda, Fort, Mumbai 400 023 Tel. +91-22-6573- 5773, +91-22-22822924 Fax +91-22-2288- 5972 Email: udriresearchfellows hip at gmail. com, researchfellowship@ udri.org olumbia University 212-854-8547 - -- Paromita Vohra DEVI PICTURES D404,Trans Apartments Mahakali Caves Road Andheri (E) Bombay 400093 Tel:91.22.28377960 Cel: 91.9819377960 ~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~ "The Emperor has no clothes" __._,_.___ From logos.theword at gmail.com Thu Sep 11 11:37:11 2008 From: logos.theword at gmail.com (Logos Theatre) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 11:37:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Solo Performance Tomorrow - Necropolis: rehearsing Koltes in such times Message-ID: <33bc2ee60809102307r3e1880e6l185dd2ca7c83f1f8@mail.gmail.com> *Maya Gallery of Contemporary Art and Logos Theatre present:* ** *Necropolis: rehearsing Koltes in such times* ** A play by Best of Kolkata Campus Direction dramaturgy and performance: Parnab Mukherjee Inspired from In the Solitude of Cottonfields by Bernard Marie Koltes Additional text: Thangjam Ibopishak, Rajkumar Bhubonsana, Bhaskar Chakraborty, Rabindranath Tagore and Mishing proverbs Collaboration: Gautam Bajoria *At: Maya Gallery of Contemporary Art, 59, Nandidurga Road (Behind the airtel office)* ** *Tomorrow (September 12th), at 18:30* ** *Duration: One hour* ** *Non-ticketed, pay-as-you-wish.* ** *Audience limited to twenty* ** *Call: 9880966313, or mail contact at logostheatreindia.org* *Synopsis:* Necropolis is a part of a three part repertoire called The Trilogy of Unrest, the first two being Hamletmachine: Images of Shakespeare-in-us and an installation performance called This room is not my room. The repertoire has toured the north-east, Siliguri, Kolkata, Pune and Mumbai. The touring performance will culminate in the release of a special commemorative edition of Five Issues on Indian theatre and subversions-dedicated to Badal Sircar, Vijay Tendulkar, Bishnu Rabha and Arambam Samarendra *Summary: * Two men meet on the street. They have to make a deal. Or rather they want to make a deal. One has something to sell and the other needs something to buy. The Dealer is unsure what to peddle or would he want to peddle anything in the first place. The Client knows what he has to buy but does not know exactly what to. A cat and mouse game begins between these nameless, faceless, shapeshifters who have to make a transaction which they are not sure why would make. For the next chunk of minutes they indulge in selling and buying of concepts without transacting anything. But they did make a deal. What are they selling? Or rather who is buying? Are technology, displacement, memories of a genocide the new road-map of the new universe. Are we such theoritical creatures that we have lost the power to engage with real issues and provide a balm to the displaced, destitute, fried, barbecued, roasted human-folk.? More often than not we are groping for words to describe routine violence. Routine cases of racial profiling. Of exclusion. Grappling with stereotypes. Cliches. Biases on the basis of human rights. Unethical treatment of animals who become globalised pharma companies? experimental guinea pigs. Biases on the basis of sexual orientation. We are looking at images and we think either they supplement the words or complement them. Is image only a memory tool? Is it just a visual metaphor? Is it just to learn things by heart? By rote? What is a performance? Merely a text or an improvisation or?a series?of theatre exercises which are prescribed as typical workshop methods? The performance probes into the image -word relationship?gets into the rationale of images... What images are we looking at? Nelllie-Morichjhaanpi, Malom, Mokokchung, Arrest of Vinayak Sen in Chattishgarh...What was the process of transforming the "us" into "them".....How are "they" celebrating diversity and "their" culturalness in these times? The performance negotiates these terrains. By the time the performance ends nobody has bought, nobody has sold?yet those two individuals have transformed themselves enough to be probably up for sale if the next set of clients gatecrash into the narrative. *About the Director/ Performer:* An independent media analyst and a performance consultant by profession, Mr. Parnab Mukherjee is one of the leading alternative theatre directors' of the country. He divides his time between Kolkata, Imphal and the Darjeeling hills. Currently, a consultant with a human rights initiative, he has earlier worked for a sports fortnightly, an English daily and a Bengali daily. He is an acclaimed authority on Badal Sircar's theatre and specialises in theatre-for-conflict-resolution and theatre-of-the-campus. He is considered as a leading light in alternative theatre in the country having directed more than 50 productions of performance texts including three international collaborations. He has also performed 12 full length solos which include an acclaimed series of plays on trafficking, HIV and segregation called the River series, and *Foot Hills to Hills, *a?series of plays?with Darjeeling as the living inspiration. Parnab has created a personal idiom of using spaces for theatre exploration. He has extensively worked on a range of human rights issues which include specific theatre projects on anti-uranium project struggles in Jadugoda and Turamdihi, Save Tenzin campaign, rehabilitation after industrial shutdowns, shelter issue of the de-notified tribes, a widely acclaimed cycle of?nine plays against Gujarat genocide, and a range of issues on north-east with special reference to Armed Forces Special Powers Act, 1958. Four of his major workshop modules:* Freedomspeak*, *The Otherness of the Body*, *Conflict* *as a Text *and *The Elastic Body *have been conducted with major theatre groups and campuses all over the country. He has written five books on theatre *Best of Kolkata Campus: * Best of Kolkata Campus, a non-profit performance company, has completed 15 years of doing dedicated theatre in found spaces and public arena. It has produced a number of young theatre workers who are active in the cultural and audio-visual training arena. It is a loosely formed collective of?individuals who believe that theatre is an important an independent tool of dissent outside the ambit of party politics. Some of the most memorable productions of the group include *Hamletmachine*, *Antigone*, *Raktakarabi-an urban sound opera*, *Bhul Rasta*, *Kasper-dipped and shredded*, *They Also Work*, *River Monologues*, *Dead-Talk series,?Coversations with the dead, Crisis of Civilisation, Shakespeare shorts, Man to Man talk, Inviting Ibsen for a Dinner with Ibsen*?and *And the Dead Tree Gives no Shelter.*? The group also works in the field of installation performances and theatre-of-conflict-resolution and peace studies. It has travelled extensively all over the country doing shows, giving workshops and exploring alternative performance idioms. -- Logos Theatre In the beginning was the word No. 126, 3rd Main Road, Jayamahal Extension, Bangalore 560046 -------------------------------------------------------- If it be now, 'tis not to come; if it be not to come, it will be now; if it be not now, yet it will come: the readiness is all. Since no man has aught of what he leaves, what is't to leave betimes? Let be. -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Thu Sep 11 15:29:01 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 15:29:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Delhi University gets ABVP president after 8 years/ reader-list Digest, Vol 62, Issue 35. In-Reply-To: <6353c690809080116q6d0c75c1vc3e2c2482a3e9775@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00809061411t758f471cq8ba213c5ee2608c9@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70809061419u4afae77yfefb2f36f721ebe8@mail.gmail.com> <98f331e00809061441h51ad1444pe7a632e2f8d722e7@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70809061445o3ca898b3g29ef85e24d212c18@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690809080116q6d0c75c1vc3e2c2482a3e9775@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0809110259ta19c1n2d4e8a15b5cd4300@mail.gmail.com> Dear Aditya, Clearly the law of this land and the Supreme Court do not agree with your idiotic definition of "caste-based" reservations for which we can only be grateful. Nor did the political process pay any heed eventually to the "movement" launched by privileged doctors to protect upper-caste privilege. Your "movement" having reached every corner of this country is complete nonsense. Exactly what proportion of this country actually counts for anything in your scheme of things is utterly obvious from the position you take on caste. If you want to begin a debate here on the debacle that was your "movement" everyone is more than willing. Especially how your line kept changing as you realised that the elite with whom you threw in your lot were,wonders of wonders, out of their depth. And so finally, after the court spoke in favour of reservations, from "no reservations" you finally went to "not more than 50% reservations" and now youre barking on about "we were strongly in favour of affirmative action". Many of those conservations are archived on this list in fact aditya, so again, be careful before you try and squirm your way out of your own dissimulations... What lessons should you draw from this? That, finally, people such are yourself are utterly irrelevant to larger politics. A sobering thought is it not? best Aarti On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 1:46 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Pawan, > > Everybody knows that United Students contested the elections in 2006 and > came out third with 4,300 votes after NSUI and ABVP. This surely does not > make our communist brothers of SFI/AISA etc. happy. I don't understand why > at all they fight elections as they hardly have any support in the campus. > Anyways, I respect democracy. > > Prakash bhai, I don't understand why a news item made you scream at the top > of your voice. Is something behind this ? Anyways, Yes United Students was > formed in 2006 but only after we successfully campaigned for Jessica Lall > and Priyadarshini Mattoo to get Justice. In April 2006, we were the first > in > India to speak out against Case Based Politics and caste based > reservations. > Now, if you support this; it goes on to show who actually is castiest Mr. > Ray. We were strongly in favour of Affirmative Action. Our agitation > reached > every nook and corner of the country and soon the Doctors friends took over > and formed Youth For Equality. This surely should pain only those, who are > against, progress, against equality, fair justice and education for all. > > Mr. Ray, Your comments are unfortunate. For your kinf information, United > Students still exists and it contested the elections in 2007 and as well > this year. Tania Jain from SRCC Economics Hons. was our candidate who did > fairly well even though she had no support from Congress, BJP or your CPI > (M). > > Now, coming to your blind allegations. Nupur Sharma who is now the DUSU > President is a good friend and an able leader. So, I thought of supporting > her. I don't get why it pains you. > > United Students has been very active in Delhi University for past one year. > We have been campaigning against sexual harassment. Its only because of the > efforts of our activists that you see strong presence of Police on > strategic > locations across the University. We also campaigned for relaxation of rates > for students who travel from the METRO. This demand is under consideration, > but will take time for implementation because of the huge loan India has > taken from Japan. > > I do understand why you are not aware of these silent developments in the > university. You are busy instigationg people against few students groups on > communal lines and spreading lies. Do you remember Nandigram ? Its very > unfortunate. > > Don't loosen you frustration here this way. It won't result in anything > positive. > > > Love > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 3:15 AM, Pawan Durani > wrote: > > > Wouldnt have expetcted anything better from where your address is > > !..........you know what I mean. > > > > On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 3:11 AM, prakash ray wrote: > > > > > Shri Durani, > > > > > > Please ask about what is a castiest to Mr Aditya Raj Kaul. I am sure > that > > > he > > > will speak (also open and show) his mind to you despite the dangers of > > > taking the brain out in open without medical/surgical support and > > > supervision. As far as my definition is concerned, I am not bothering > you > > > by > > > telling it to you. If I tell you this, you will waste your time in > > replying > > > to it. If needed, I will bother you on another issue on another time. > > > > > > Prakash > > > > > > On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 2:49 AM, Pawan Durani > > > wrote: > > > > > > > And Ray Sahib, > > > > What is your definition about Casteist ? And as far as Mr Adityaraj > > Kauls > > > > stand on communalism is concerned ,.I am happy that someone from > youth > > > > section speaks his mind out at dangers which can engulf the whole > > country > > > in > > > > times to come. > > > > > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > > > On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 2:41 AM, prakash ray > wrote: > > > > > > > >> Dear Mr Aditya Raj Kaul, > > > >> > > > >> I am not at all surprised at your happiness on the victory of ABVP's > > > >> presidential candidate in DUSU elections 2008. An activist like you > of > > a > > > >> casteist organization like United Students, a clone of Youth for > > > Equality, > > > >> will be only happy if a communal organization wins an election. And > > your > > > >> position on communalism is known to the readers of the list. Those > who > > > >> have > > > >> not heard about the outfit called United Students, I want to tell > them > > > >> that > > > >> this anti-reservation entity was formed in 2006 alongwith notorious > > > Youth > > > >> for Equality to oppose reservation in the educational institution. > > > United > > > >> Students contested DUSU elections in 2006 and 2007 and for better, > it > > > does > > > >> not exist anymore. Mr Aditya Raj Kaul led a delegation of United > > > Students > > > >> to > > > >> the President of India on May 4, 2006 to oppose the reservations. > > > >> Interestingly, he is elated at the ABVP's victory after contesting > > > against > > > >> it for two years. I am sure that he and his fellow > > anti-reservationists > > > >> worked for ABVP this time which 'supported' reservations. Will Mr > Kaul > > > >> explain the deal between these two outfits? As far as the DUSU > results > > > are > > > >> concerned, it is another issue to be talked seperately. > > > >> > > > >> Prakash > > > >> _________________________________________ > > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Prakash K Ray > > > 225, Sutlej, JNU, New Delhi-110067. > > > cinemela.blogspot.com > > > (0) 9873313315 > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Thu Sep 11 16:01:01 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 03:31:01 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] Delhi University gets ABVP president after 8 years/ reader-list Digest, Vol 62, Issue 35. In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0809110259ta19c1n2d4e8a15b5cd4300@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00809061411t758f471cq8ba213c5ee2608c9@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70809061419u4afae77yfefb2f36f721ebe8@mail.gmail.com> <98f331e00809061441h51ad1444pe7a632e2f8d722e7@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70809061445o3ca898b3g29ef85e24d212c18@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690809080116q6d0c75c1vc3e2c2482a3e9775@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809110259ta19c1n2d4e8a15b5cd4300@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690809110331qe97abf3l7e95034247d4c836@mail.gmail.com> Dear Aarti, I'm not here to reply to nonsense. We did what was right and even Supreme Court backed us. Even you know how the reserved seats remain empty in all central and other universities and colleges. For any help, understanding etc. of our campaign you may like to visit and get enligtened at www.unitedstudentsindia.com You might as well utilise your time for a chage to read the formula recommended by Sh. Purshotam Agrwal of JNU, that we had as well backed. The world knows why the caste based reservations still exist; only because of the Politicians; looking at their vote bank. The easiest way out is to fool the majority. Don't bark but discuss. I know it pains you that how our campaign met success in such a short span of time even though their were such large hurdles in-between. And, it isn't over yet...the first phase though is. Love Aditya Raj Kaul On 9/11/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: > > Dear Aditya, > > Clearly the law of this land and the Supreme Court do not agree with your > idiotic definition of "caste-based" reservations for which we can only be > grateful. Nor did the political process pay any heed eventually to the > "movement" launched by privileged doctors to protect upper-caste privilege. > Your "movement" having reached every corner of this country is complete > nonsense. Exactly what proportion of this country actually counts for > anything in your scheme of things is utterly obvious from the position you > take on caste. If you want to begin a debate here on the debacle that was > your "movement" everyone is more than willing. Especially how your line kept > changing as you realised that the elite with whom you threw in your lot > were,wonders of wonders, out of their depth. And so finally, after the court > spoke in favour of reservations, from "no reservations" you finally went to > "not more than 50% reservations" and now youre barking on about "we were > strongly in favour of affirmative action". Many of those conservations are > archived on this list in fact aditya, so again, be careful before you try > and squirm your way out of your own dissimulations... > > What lessons should you draw from this? That, finally, people such are > yourself are utterly irrelevant to larger politics. A sobering thought is it > not? > > best > Aarti > > On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 1:46 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > >> Pawan, >> >> Everybody knows that United Students contested the elections in 2006 and >> came out third with 4,300 votes after NSUI and ABVP. This surely does not >> make our communist brothers of SFI/AISA etc. happy. I don't understand why >> at all they fight elections as they hardly have any support in the campus. >> Anyways, I respect democracy. >> >> Prakash bhai, I don't understand why a news item made you scream at the >> top >> of your voice. Is something behind this ? Anyways, Yes United Students was >> formed in 2006 but only after we successfully campaigned for Jessica Lall >> and Priyadarshini Mattoo to get Justice. In April 2006, we were the first >> in >> India to speak out against Case Based Politics and caste based >> reservations. >> Now, if you support this; it goes on to show who actually is castiest Mr. >> Ray. We were strongly in favour of Affirmative Action. Our agitation >> reached >> every nook and corner of the country and soon the Doctors friends took >> over >> and formed Youth For Equality. This surely should pain only those, who are >> against, progress, against equality, fair justice and education for all. >> >> Mr. Ray, Your comments are unfortunate. For your kinf information, United >> Students still exists and it contested the elections in 2007 and as well >> this year. Tania Jain from SRCC Economics Hons. was our candidate who did >> fairly well even though she had no support from Congress, BJP or your CPI >> (M). >> >> Now, coming to your blind allegations. Nupur Sharma who is now the DUSU >> President is a good friend and an able leader. So, I thought of supporting >> her. I don't get why it pains you. >> >> United Students has been very active in Delhi University for past one >> year. >> We have been campaigning against sexual harassment. Its only because of >> the >> efforts of our activists that you see strong presence of Police on >> strategic >> locations across the University. We also campaigned for relaxation of >> rates >> for students who travel from the METRO. This demand is under >> consideration, >> but will take time for implementation because of the huge loan India has >> taken from Japan. >> >> I do understand why you are not aware of these silent developments in the >> university. You are busy instigationg people against few students groups >> on >> communal lines and spreading lies. Do you remember Nandigram ? Its very >> unfortunate. >> >> Don't loosen you frustration here this way. It won't result in anything >> positive. >> >> >> Love >> >> Aditya Raj Kaul >> >> >> On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 3:15 AM, Pawan Durani >> wrote: >> >> > Wouldnt have expetcted anything better from where your address is >> > !..........you know what I mean. >> > >> > On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 3:11 AM, prakash ray wrote: >> > >> > > Shri Durani, >> > > >> > > Please ask about what is a castiest to Mr Aditya Raj Kaul. I am sure >> that >> > > he >> > > will speak (also open and show) his mind to you despite the dangers of >> > > taking the brain out in open without medical/surgical support and >> > > supervision. As far as my definition is concerned, I am not bothering >> you >> > > by >> > > telling it to you. If I tell you this, you will waste your time in >> > replying >> > > to it. If needed, I will bother you on another issue on another time. >> > > >> > > Prakash >> > > >> > > On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 2:49 AM, Pawan Durani >> > > wrote: >> > > >> > > > And Ray Sahib, >> > > > What is your definition about Casteist ? And as far as Mr Adityaraj >> > Kauls >> > > > stand on communalism is concerned ,.I am happy that someone from >> youth >> > > > section speaks his mind out at dangers which can engulf the whole >> > country >> > > in >> > > > times to come. >> > > > >> > > > Pawan Durani >> > > > >> > > > On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 2:41 AM, prakash ray >> wrote: >> > > > >> > > >> Dear Mr Aditya Raj Kaul, >> > > >> >> > > >> I am not at all surprised at your happiness on the victory of >> ABVP's >> > > >> presidential candidate in DUSU elections 2008. An activist like you >> of >> > a >> > > >> casteist organization like United Students, a clone of Youth for >> > > Equality, >> > > >> will be only happy if a communal organization wins an election. And >> > your >> > > >> position on communalism is known to the readers of the list. Those >> who >> > > >> have >> > > >> not heard about the outfit called United Students, I want to tell >> them >> > > >> that >> > > >> this anti-reservation entity was formed in 2006 alongwith notorious >> > > Youth >> > > >> for Equality to oppose reservation in the educational institution. >> > > United >> > > >> Students contested DUSU elections in 2006 and 2007 and for better, >> it >> > > does >> > > >> not exist anymore. Mr Aditya Raj Kaul led a delegation of United >> > > Students >> > > >> to >> > > >> the President of India on May 4, 2006 to oppose the reservations. >> > > >> Interestingly, he is elated at the ABVP's victory after contesting >> > > against >> > > >> it for two years. I am sure that he and his fellow >> > anti-reservationists >> > > >> worked for ABVP this time which 'supported' reservations. Will Mr >> Kaul >> > > >> explain the deal between these two outfits? As far as the DUSU >> results >> > > are >> > > >> concerned, it is another issue to be talked seperately. >> > > >> >> > > >> Prakash >> > > >> _________________________________________ >> > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > > >> Critiques & Collaborations >> > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > > >> subscribe in the subject header. >> > > >> To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > -- >> > > Prakash K Ray >> > > 225, Sutlej, JNU, New Delhi-110067. >> > > cinemela.blogspot.com >> > > (0) 9873313315 >> > > _________________________________________ >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > > subscribe in the subject header. >> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > From db at dannybutt.net Thu Sep 11 16:13:39 2008 From: db at dannybutt.net (Danny Butt) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 22:43:39 +1200 Subject: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions In-Reply-To: <47e122a70809050748m2404fb8dh9ce65637678f1579@mail.gmail.com> References: <47e122a70809030644g483a5b2en985bbcd466c44c9b@mail.gmail.com> <319517.61062.qm@web51407.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <47e122a70809031030l8c80ad2p2699cebbeb999893@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809040209x36039c0fjde7275560b7eb74a@mail.gmail.com> <4B78567A-0D07-4FC3-98FF-8A26707FF690@dannybutt.net> <47e122a70809050748m2404fb8dh9ce65637678f1579@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <309273B0-39DF-46BF-8DBF-A3164B27168A@dannybutt.net> Dear Inder, all My sincere apologies for the delay in responding. I've been suffering my own "hurt" of an entirely different kind (flu virus). It is, of course, completely incommensurable with the scale of hurt that accrues when a culture puts in place ideologies to move others to the less than human. Nevertheless, it is a very useful space for someone like myself (white, male, native English-speaking - a kind of unofficially anointed inheritor of this "global" a previous generation created) to consider the question of a hurt which arises from an external force, which is then somehow internalised. That's not to say that I've been colonised by the virus, but my own agency is sort of productively hobbled :). I really can't comment too much on Husain, but I would like to acknowledge your statement (also acknowledged by Aarti) that "The question of 'hurt' is truly democratic." Increasingly, I see the questions you and Aarti raise as critical ones to address in the question of democracy and the public sphere. Without the ability to acknowledge the hurt, pleasure, freedom, unfreedom of others (regardless of one's own situation), democracy is always tenuous. The various attempts to embed a level of respect for the rights of others in the rule of law is certainly an important enterprise. But as Gayatri Chakravorty Spivak ("Righting Wrongs", 2004) approvingly quotes Ronald Dworkin ["Taking Rights Seriously", 1978]: "the right to concern and respect is fundamental among rights in a different way, because it shows how the idea of a collective goal may itself be derived from that fundamental right. If so, then concern and respect is a right so fundamental that it is not captured by the general characterization of rights as trumps over collective goals, except as a limiting case, because it is the source both of the general authority of collective goals and of the special limitations on their authority that justify more particular rights. That promise of unity in political theory is indistinct in these essays, however. It must be defended, if at all, elsewhere.'" A slightly abstract description, but as Spivak notes: "To take his statement here as a final solution to the entire problem is to ''confuse the force of his [argument] for its range,''.... Where I find Ronald Dworkin altogether inspiring is in his insistence on principle rather than policy in hard cases. The range of this insistence has an elasticity that can accommodate the force of my plea to the dominant." Perhaps here we sense the need for a kind of openness or indeterminacy to be held between principle, policy, and affect. (This is the kind of indeterminacy I felt Aarti was surfacing in her post). It is certainly a space which holds increasing importance in my own work. All the best, Danny -- http://www.dannybutt.net On 6/09/2008, at 2:48 AM, inder salim wrote: > Dear Danny Butt, > > Here in India we are made to believe that M.F. Huaain's paintings have > angered Hindus. If so, we are merely gulping down the throat what is > being offered to us. I believe, people on the List and elsewhere, > need to express their emancipated views while dealing with > subjectivities which are exclusively aesthetic in nature. It quickly > lapses into communsalism and hate. > > how ' this causes this' gets inverted with the passage of time is too > interesting to read. It could be seen even then , but needs a > 'creative eye' . Picasso is just a example, of knowing how European > colonialism of Africa might have caused, let us say a Gurenica, to > happen much earlier before the world war 2nd which made picasso to see > Civil war in Spain and other such things. Here, this also will be > interesting to note that Picasso was 'high jacked' by the market, and > the subject 'death' danced a la aesthetic. Here, it is also note > worthy that Picasso also worked his compositions from the war > photographs in the press and also from the African masks. Picasso > himself says, that he does not know whether he is a good artist or > not, but he is a good craftsman. I think he was clear to a large > extent, and he had to courage to abandon his successful style at the > stage of a career when very few artists dare to do so. > > On the contrary Hussain had little choice when he began to kiss ' the > modern' That was OUR fate, and we continue to reel under the impact > of that 'modern' which was promoted as global as the same time. So > post colonial, which has its own dynamics, depth and relevance, like > Bollywood is not merely a derivate of Hollywood, Indian modern > paintings too are not simply Western, but something which we can own, > even in the absence of a coherence. Hussain has indeed worked overtime > to bring that Indian into the form which was seen purely as modern. > That truly is, and nothing more. > > Even if we enter a new phase of post-modern / art-now kind of Indian > art scene, we cannot simply can not say that Indian modern art, > (painting and sculpture) does not exist. Because any representation > of India, even with some pretension of the modern, offends the Hindu > nationalists, The paintings which have caused this anger in some > fanatic hindus can be seen through this perspective. This is also > speaks the darker side of democracy in a post colonial free India. > This anger is part of the process that brought down a 400 year old > mosque by these hindu fanatics, jut to come to power in the centre. > They managed it, and are not out of race this time again. So defending > Hussain is so urgent for a modern democratic and secular citizen > living in India. > > That is that. Your response, with passage from Lauran Bernat to > Aarti's question on HURT is really profound and demands a sincere > discourse. Please forward his complete article. > > The question of 'hurt' is truly democratic. This is how Aarti puts it > lucidly "that it posits a horizon of desire that is unachievable for > the people it uses for the ad" . Our progress in the modern has no > space for hurt, perhaps because it posits its being in the machine > exclusively. This modern machine thing has simultaneously given > monopoly over ' the hurt' to religious believers only. That is > indeed undemocratic. To expand the definition of 'hurt' we need to > enter a word like 'environment'. A tree, a river, a simple identity, > a simple dignity of the individual can be seen as environmental, only > if there is some challenge to the value judgment unleashed by the > capitalists. How else "we are to fashion any sort of language to > deal with the violence of the present". I quote Aarti again. > > So, Art that is overwhelmingly part of the capitalist investment, and > is bereft of that urge to challenge the horizon of desire that has no > space for the people that it uses it, and no space for the earth that > uses it. To quote Tee Bee Di "Hmm.. Who is not an artist? " I feel > everybody, only if there is a radical thought in place. > > The question of 'hurt' is therefore, political, and can not be seen > only in the so called acts of profanation of the sacred. It is quite > ironical that how people are so close to the realities of mythologies > which are so distant, and so distant to the realities that is > intimate. > > How has all this happened? > > With love > inder salim > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 3:43 PM, Danny Butt wrote: >> Kia ora all >> >> I've also been learning a lot from the recent discussion, as I try to >> map these conversations back onto the very different cultural >> histories (though equally fragmented perhaps, if less recently as >> bloody) here in Aotearoa New Zealand. >> >> Having seen a huge retrospective of Picasso's work (and collection) >> close to my hometown recently, I couldn't help but be struck by the >> fact that while it might be true that, as Yousuf says, "Picasso >> probably never had people killing each others angered by his >> paintings", it is nevertheless equally true that his work is >> unthinkable without the death that accompanied the European >> colonisation of Africa and the Pacific. The works in his collection >> acquired from those regions seem to take on additional significance >> when read in light of that history. So perhaps the question of time, >> where we sequence events and consequences to say "this causes this", >> becomes inverted and displaced in situations where the affect seems >> to >> precede the event of production. In some respects, when hurt is >> experienced, the potential of that hurt seems to have been structured >> in advance. >> >> This was just one of the thoughts brought to mind by Aarti's very >> productive questions. While I am not really fluent enough in the >> specific issues which prompted this discussion to comment more >> specifically, I would like to share a quote from a writer that I have >> learnt a lot from about the issues Aarti raises, which I think does >> speak to the recent discussions on the list. >> >> "The exposed traumas of workers in ongoing extreme conditions do not >> generally induce more than mourning on the part of the state and the >> public culture to whose feeling-based opinions the state is said to >> respond. Mourning is what happens when a grounding object is lost, is >> dead, no longer living (to you). Mourning is an experience of >> irreducible boundedness: I am here, I am living. He is dead, I am >> mourning. It is a beautiful, not sublime, experience of emancipation: >> mourning supplies the subject the definitional perfection of a being >> no longer in flux. It takes place over a distance: even if the object >> who induces the feeling of loss and helplessness is neither dead nor >> at any great distance from where you are. In other words, mourning >> can >> also be an act of aggression, of social deathmaking: it can perform >> the evacuation of significance from actually-existing subjects. Even >> when liberals do it, one might say, "others" are ghosted for a good >> cause. The sorrow songs of scandal that sing of the exploitation that >> is always "elsewhere" (even a few blocks away) are in this sense >> aggressively songs of mourning. Play them backward, and the military >> march of capitalist triumphalism (The Trans-Nationale) can be heard. >> Its lyric, currently crooned by every organ of record in the United >> States, is about necessity. It exhorts citizens to understand that >> the >> "bottom line" of national life is neither utopia nor freedom but >> survival, which can only be achieved by a citizenry that eats its >> anger, makes no unreasonable claims on resources or control over >> value, and uses its most creative energy to cultivate intimate >> spheres >> while scrapping a life together flexibly in response to the market >> world's caprice." >> >> Lauren Berlant, "The Subject of True Feeling: Pain, Privacy, and >> Politics", in Austin Sarat and Thomas R. Kearns (eds.) Cultural >> Pluralism, Identity Politics, and the Law. Ann Arbor: University of >> Michigan Press. 1999. >> >> (In the notes for this paragraph Berlant references Douglas Crimp and >> the politics of AIDS in the US: "Crimp is especially astute on the >> necessary articulation of sentimentality and politics: because >> processes of legitimation cannot do without the production of >> consent, >> and empathetic misrecognition is one tactic for creating it. The >> question is how, and at what cost, different kinds of subjects and >> contexts of empathy are imagined in the struggle for radical social >> transformation.") >> >> I'd be happy to forward a PDF of Berlant's article to anyone who is >> interested in these questions of subjectivity, affect, and public >> recognition. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Danny >> >> -- >> http://www.dannybutt.net >> >> On 4/09/2008, at 9:09 PM, Aarti Sethi wrote: >> >>> A few thoughts on an interesting discussion. >>> >>> One term I think that has remained unexamined in this discussion is >>> "hurt" >>> or "sentiment". By this I mean not an assessment of whether that >>> hurt is >>> justified, valid etc, who is to decide whether this offends or not, >>> whether >>> this is offensive or not, the relative self-sufficiency of value >>> systems and >>> speaking across them. But the inherent value of hurt as a positive >>> force in >>> itself. Let me try and explain what I mean. >>> >>> Why is "hurt sentiment" a bad thing in itself? Can having one's >>> sentiments >>> hurt, sometimes quite badly, not be a positive force? Might it not >>> impell me >>> to re-think, or think, about my sentiments in a manner that is >>> creative? >>> Maybe those sentiments are better discarded. Maybe my outrage alerts >>> me to a >>> violence I have been commiting without realising it. Maybe if more >>> people's >>> sentiments were outraged a little more forcefully, then we would be >>> living >>> in a far more democratic and tolerant world. >>> >>> Further, I do not see why only religious communities have a monopoly >>> on >>> sentiments which can then be hurt. As a feminist, my sentiments are >>> assaulted on a routine and regular basis. As someone who believes >>> in a >>> version of social justice and equality, once articulated by, but not >>> only >>> by, Marx for instance, my feelings are continually trampled over. As >>> someone >>> who believes in a secular vision, the discussions on this list >>> offend me >>> everyday. However i do not see this being taken very seriously. >>> And it >>> needn't, that is the point. It is up to me to alchemize this >>> outrage, hurt, >>> sadness in a manner that enables me to live and act in the world. >>> >>> This is actually how we live our lives generally. My mother, or >>> father, or >>> lover, or friend might say something that hurts me terribly. Not >>> always is >>> this clarified, discussed, put in its right perspective. All our >>> lives are >>> all littered with silent archives of hurts we have never expressed. >>> There is >>> no heroic moment in which resolution is sought for hurts. And no one >>> can do >>> this for anyone... >>> >>> The recent Vogue advertisements doing the rounds, around which there >>> has >>> been some discussion on this list, have hurt the sentiments of many >>> people. >>> A few years ago another set of advertisements for brand equity in >>> which two >>> tribal women are shown discussing the tans they have got in Monte >>> Carlo to >>> an accompanying snide and contemptous copy which said something >>> about how >>> advertisers need to accurately reach their consumers, also outraged >>> many of >>> us. Having thought about this, I realised that though both the Vogue >>> ads and >>> the brand equity ads trouble me, they do so in different ways. >>> >>> The Vogue ads can be read in one of many ways - that it posits a >>> horizon of >>> desire that is unachievable for the people it uses for the ad. In >>> some sense >>> then the frisson of the ad derives from the discrepancy in what is >>> desired >>> and what is possible. Further it assumes that their horizon of >>> desire will >>> follow the trajectory laid out by Vogue. But most interesting to me >>> is that >>> both Vogue and the critics work with a fixed definition of poverty >>> in the >>> first place, and certain trajectory of the direction a life can >>> take. >>> >>> The second set of ads function on precisely the opposite principle. >>> Rather >>> than positing an eventual horizon of desire, they deem a present >>> life as >>> failed, and urges us to recognise its failure. It presumes and makes >>> me >>> complicit in a social consensus in which we can use languages in a >>> manner as >>> if we are all agreed on the terms in operation. >>> >>> Can you see the difference in both ads? They both trouble me deeply, >>> but >>> they trouble me in different ways. How is this at all useful, or >>> valuable? I >>> think it is. I think to be able to carefully work through how and >>> why and in >>> what ways something arrives to me and what it disturbs is a critical >>> thing, >>> if we are to fashion any sort of language to deal with the violence >>> of the >>> present. >>> >>> with regards >>> Aarti >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 11:00 PM, inder salim >>> wrote: >>> >>>> dear yousuf >>>> >>>> thanks for response. >>>> >>>> no i dont agree that people are killing each other because Hussain >>>> painted this or that, People want to kill people and there is >>>> always >>>> an excuse available. We will always not blame people for that >>>> because >>>> people have ceased to be people with their existential choice to >>>> be ' >>>> being-in-itself'. Prime symbols of our society have perhaps >>>> cultivated bad tastes because of a deep bourgiouse-captilist- >>>> fascist >>>> leanings. We are indeed in a deep mess. For example, Sudhir Kakkar >>>> talks about how unresolved sexuality has a deep relationship with >>>> violence. Now who is the culprit. At least Artists are trying to >>>> heal >>>> themselves. let them, even if people are not healed... >>>> >>>> about what is good to society ? Stalin's USSR did this mistake and >>>> killed lot of intellectuals poets and artists, Theortically what, >>>> poets are artists were doing at time had little relevance to the >>>> times >>>> ' of bolshivik ' but in the end we can see how wrong was that >>>> policy >>>> of actually believing what is good for society and what is not. We >>>> need to provide a space to everything for everybody. >>>> >>>> People like TV reality and other such heaps of trash....., how >>>> much >>>> we can carry is seriously with us, you know better, at least i cant >>>> take the popular bullshit of saas Bahu and bootnath serials. >>>> >>>> About market and art via ' conspiracy of art' we already know >>>> Hussain >>>> sahib is not in a great spiritual health. But a fanatic has no >>>> right >>>> to dislodge something which is already dislodged by the Tusnami of >>>> sheer profitalbity of americansim.. >>>> >>>> >>>> love >>>> is >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 8:34 PM, Yousuf wrote: >>>>> Dear Salim >>>>> You are right, an artist should never have to explain. But Picasso >>>> probably never had people killing each others angered by his >>>> paintings. But >>>> (as we have discussed earlier on this theme) if you are doing an >>>> art for >>>> public, would you not be concerned if the public appreciates it? No >>>> one is >>>> born appreciating high art - we acquire a tastes for everything. >>>> The point >>>> is, whose responsibity is it to inculcate the appreciation of art >>>> in >>>> society? If its a Madhubani painting done on the facade of my >>>> village house >>>> by my mother, its very much there in my genes. But if it is a horse >>>> by >>>> Hussain kept in a gallery to which I have no access, somebody has >>>> to do a >>>> bit of explaining on why such art is distanced from social reality >>>> (which >>>> actually is not, but the market has made it look so). >>>>> >>>>> Yousuf >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --- On Wed, 9/3/08, inder salim wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> From: inder salim >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions >>>>>> To: reader-list at sarai.net >>>>>> Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 7:14 PM >>>>>> Picasso said, if it is possible to explian, it is futile to >>>>>> paint. >>>>>> >>>>>> even if i we gnore picasso, who is an old hat in modern art >>>>>> now, let >>>>>> alone hussain sahib who is immensely supported by >>>>>> investors, and 'post >>>>>> colonialism' as theoritical justificaioin to do >>>>>> whatever he or we >>>>>> sometimes are doing which can pass as derivate at the >>>>>> best. >>>>>> >>>>>> what is education or what is not , what is offensive or >>>>>> what is not, >>>>>> is difficult to explain, if one chases the text, and its >>>>>> meaning >>>>>> profoundly... >>>>>> >>>>>> what we forget also is the fact that what we see are >>>>>> phtographs of the >>>>>> the original >>>>>> >>>>>> .and is photogaphy representing real, if so then we have >>>>>> truly >>>>>> disappeared from the face of this earth. and it does not >>>>>> matter if >>>>>> there is hussain or not, >>>>>> >>>>>> there is book by Jean Baudilard ' conspiracy of >>>>>> art' >>>>>> which speaks the contemporary art practices , and that >>>>>> makes us feel >>>>>> that the whole world is in fact a piece of modern art work >>>>>> , and we >>>>>> are not there, simple not part of it. >>>>>> >>>>>> the question of relevance of hussain in our social >>>>>> structures is open >>>>>> to this sort of criticism, >>>>>> >>>>>> but not once it lands as amunition in the hands of >>>>>> fanatics. >>>>>> >>>>>> love >>>>>> is >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >> >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Thu Sep 11 17:14:33 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 16:44:33 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Delhi University gets ABVP president after 8 years/reader-list Digest, Vol 62, Issue 35. In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0809110259ta19c1n2d4e8a15b5cd4300@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00809061411t758f471cq8ba213c5ee2608c9@mail.gmail.com> <"6b 79f1a70809061419u4afae77yfefb2f36f721ebe8"@mail.gmail.com> <"98f331e0080906144 1h51ad1444pe7a632e2f8d722e7"@mail.gmail.com> <"6b79f1a70809061445o3ca898b3g29e f85e24d212c18"@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690809080116q6d0c75c1vc3e2c2482a3e9775@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809110259ta19c1n2d4e8a15b5cd4300@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Arti, it is indeed sad that for arguments and thoughts on the issue is idiotic. ? Issue that has escaped all in the nation is more basic and fundamental, in democratic rule of law, each and every citizen, his progeny needs good governance without fear or favour. The school of thought which propagated in 1947 onwards, that a section of the society has remained oppressed, so special quota for those oppressed is idiotic because of the simple fact that, when in democratic rule of laws, every one irrespective of the caste or faith has to be facilitated to have education, healthcare and basic essentials, and there should not be any section of the society that is discriminated because of the caste or faith. But the reservation that was brought in for just ten years, did another bigger wrong to the society in bad governance, by creating another section of OTHER Backward Caste group, which actually is the section which was always privileged class in kingdoms as the rulers executives i n the kingdoms, with the result that these sections of society led by the fuedal lords of the olden days again gained control of the votebanks, thus those who are organised unitedly are getting all the privileges of the system, others irrespective of the caste or faith are in for bad governance in the system. As all of us are part of the system, we keep blaming the system, but none are willing to take the responsibilty for obivious reasons so that vote banks are not disturbed. ? Be it a caste hindu of lower caste, or upper caste or other backward caste, be it a muslim or any other faith, in the last 61 years of free india, the benefits of fair and equitable benefits have reached any of them, as it is siphoned off in between and the results are there to see, the young educated for want of opportunities turning rebels, naxals and all anti societal movements in the society. The solution to this issue is the reservation should be for funds, national exchequer, to be reserved for more productive issues of education, basic education, vocation training, imparting skill sets in the changing needs of the time. This should reach all the citizens irrespective of caste, faith or region. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Aarti Sethi Date: Thursday, September 11, 2008 3:29 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Delhi University gets ABVP president after 8 years/reader-list Digest, Vol 62, Issue 35. To: Aditya Raj Kaul Cc: sarai list > Dear Aditya, > > Clearly the law of this land and the Supreme Court do not agree > with your > idiotic definition of "caste-based" reservations for which we can > only be > grateful. Nor did the political process pay any heed eventually to the > "movement" launched by privileged doctors to protect upper-caste > privilege.Your "movement" having reached every corner of this > country is complete > nonsense. Exactly what proportion of this country actually counts for > anything in your scheme of things is utterly obvious from the > position you > take on caste. If you want to begin a debate here on the debacle > that was > your "movement" everyone is more than willing. Especially how your > line kept > changing as you realised that the elite with whom you threw in > your lot > were,wonders of wonders, out of their depth. And so finally, after > the court > spoke in favour of reservations, from "no reservations" you > finally went to > "not more than 50% reservations" and now youre barking on about > "we were > strongly in favour of affirmative action". Many of those > conservations are > archived on this list in fact aditya, so again, be careful before > you try > and squirm your way out of your own dissimulations... > > What lessons should you draw from this? That, finally, people such are > yourself are utterly irrelevant to larger politics. A sobering > thought is it > not? > > best > Aarti > > On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 1:46 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: > > Pawan, > > > > Everybody knows that United Students contested the elections in > 2006 and > > came out third with 4,300 votes after NSUI and ABVP. This surely > does not > > make our communist brothers of SFI/AISA etc. happy. I don't > understand why > > at all they fight elections as they hardly have any support in > the campus. > > Anyways, I respect democracy. > > > > Prakash bhai, I don't understand why a news item made you scream > at the top > > of your voice. Is something behind this ? Anyways, Yes United > Students was > > formed in 2006 but only after we successfully campaigned for > Jessica Lall > > and Priyadarshini Mattoo to get Justice. In April 2006, we were > the first > > in > > India to speak out against Case Based Politics and caste based > > reservations. > > Now, if you support this; it goes on to show who actually is > castiest Mr. > > Ray. We were strongly in favour of Affirmative Action. Our agitation > > reached > > every nook and corner of the country and soon the Doctors > friends took over > > and formed Youth For Equality. This surely should pain only > those, who are > > against, progress, against equality, fair justice and education > for all. > > > > Mr. Ray, Your comments are unfortunate. For your kinf > information, United > > Students still exists and it contested the elections in 2007 and > as well > > this year. Tania Jain from SRCC Economics Hons. was our > candidate who did > > fairly well even though she had no support from Congress, BJP or > your CPI > > (M). > > > > Now, coming to your blind allegations. Nupur Sharma who is now > the DUSU > > President is a good friend and an able leader. So, I thought of > supporting> her. I don't get why it pains you. > > > > United Students has been very active in Delhi University for > past one year. > > We have been campaigning against sexual harassment. Its only > because of the > > efforts of our activists that you see strong presence of Police on > > strategic > > locations across the University. We also campaigned for > relaxation of rates > > for students who travel from the METRO. This demand is under > consideration,> but will take time for implementation because of > the huge loan India has > > taken from Japan. > > > > I do understand why you are not aware of these silent > developments in the > > university. You are busy instigationg people against few > students groups on > > communal lines and spreading lies. Do you remember Nandigram ? > Its very > > unfortunate. > > > > Don't loosen you frustration here this way. It won't result in > anything> positive. > > > > > > Love > > > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > > > On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 3:15 AM, Pawan Durani > > wrote: > > > > > Wouldnt have expetcted anything better from where your address is > > > !..........you know what I mean. > > > > > > On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 3:11 AM, prakash ray > wrote: > > > > > > > Shri Durani, > > > > > > > > Please ask about what is a castiest to Mr Aditya Raj Kaul. I > am sure > > that > > > > he > > > > will speak (also open and show) his mind to you despite the > dangers of > > > > taking the brain out in open without medical/surgical > support and > > > > supervision. As far as my definition is concerned, I am not > bothering> you > > > > by > > > > telling it to you. If I tell you this, you will waste your > time in > > > replying > > > > to it. If needed, I will bother you on another issue on > another time. > > > > > > > > Prakash > > > > > > > > On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 2:49 AM, Pawan Durani > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > And Ray Sahib, > > > > > What is your definition about Casteist ? And as far as Mr > Adityaraj> > Kauls > > > > > stand on communalism is concerned ,.I am happy that > someone from > > youth > > > > > section speaks his mind out at dangers which can engulf > the whole > > > country > > > > in > > > > > times to come. > > > > > > > > > > Pawan Durani > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 2:41 AM, prakash ray > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> Dear Mr Aditya Raj Kaul, > > > > >> > > > > >> I am not at all surprised at your happiness on the > victory of ABVP's > > > > >> presidential candidate in DUSU elections 2008. An > activist like you > > of > > > a > > > > >> casteist organization like United Students, a clone of > Youth for > > > > Equality, > > > > >> will be only happy if a communal organization wins an > election. And > > > your > > > > >> position on communalism is known to the readers of the > list. Those > > who > > > > >> have > > > > >> not heard about the outfit called United Students, I want > to tell > > them > > > > >> that > > > > >> this anti-reservation entity was formed in 2006 alongwith > notorious> > > Youth > > > > >> for Equality to oppose reservation in the educational > institution.> > > United > > > > >> Students contested DUSU elections in 2006 and 2007 and > for better, > > it > > > > does > > > > >> not exist anymore. Mr Aditya Raj Kaul led a delegation of > United> > > Students > > > > >> to > > > > >> the President of India on May 4, 2006 to oppose the > reservations.> > > >> Interestingly, he is elated at the ABVP's > victory after contesting > > > > against > > > > >> it for two years. I am sure that he and his fellow > > > anti-reservationists > > > > >> worked for ABVP this time which 'supported' reservations. > Will Mr > > Kaul > > > > >> explain the deal between these two outfits? As far as the > DUSU> results > > > > are > > > > >> concerned, it is another issue to be talked seperately. > > > > >> > > > > >> Prakash > > > > >> _________________________________________ > > > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > request at sarai.net with > > > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > > > >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > >> List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Prakash K Ray > > > > 225, Sutlej, JNU, New Delhi-110067. > > > > cinemela.blogspot.com > > > > (0) 9873313315 > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with> > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list> > List archive: > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Thu Sep 11 17:47:40 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 17:17:40 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] SC refuses to take action against M F Husain In-Reply-To: <47e122a70809100929y50f4b282y5735bd6d199e5729@mail.gmail.com> References: <725407.94697.qm@web51410.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <47e122a70809100929y50f4b282y5735bd6d199e5729@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Inder, let us not forget that the judges are also from the same society and the system that we live in, till now we are not keen to confront the judiciary and media as in any democracy these are the only two institutions which are relatively "clean" but alas, that euphoria is also waning in society as we get informed by the media that sitting and retired judges have siphoned off in crores from the pf accounts of judiciary. Sons of a retired SC chief justice avail 600 crores sitting in the official residence of the judge. A Supreme court judge has fudged his birth certificate to get extra time on the bench, a sitting judge of the high court has taken 36 lakhs as his personal funds as a receiver, "criminal" lawyers have inflienced for big money the outcome of many judgements, judges of high court get courier service delivering 15 lakhs and some buy lands in states where they are not entitled to buy. But blacksheep in media who become spin doctors to a political party, judges who ke ep quiet when crores are defreezed in London without the knowledge of the court, the act being carried out by the law minister and the solicitor general does not augur well for the confidence that society implies on both the media and judiciary. CBI, premier investigation agency purring like cat for the rich and powerful has lost credibilty along with some blacksheep in judiciary and media personnel who are selective even in "journalism. Lots of love and regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: inder salim Date: Thursday, September 11, 2008 12:56 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] SC refuses to take action against M F Husain To: reader-list at sarai.net > Dear Alaxendra > > > Thanks for reporting the sad news of Manjit Singh. The artist > needs a > full support from all of us. Here, by 'us' I means the saner part of > the society, because those who vandalize shows in galleries on this > pretext or that are finally possessing a sick mind. And those who > support, or are silent about such actions are equally to be blamed. > > > Now I visualize Bharat Mata ( untitled by artist ) Painting by MF > Hussain, with a seal and stamp of Supreme Court. It is indeed an > occasion to celebrate the product which has now ISI ( Indian > standards institution ) mark on it. It is like a mosquito-repellent > which is injurious to our lungs but it kills those insects who spread > deadly disease like dengue and malaria. > > > So, in short we need to support a Hussain, a Taslima, a Manjit Singh, > a Chander Mohan in India. That is the need of hour. But how to keep > the population of these right winged insects in check. Is our > ('stagnant') way of living finally responsible for the growth of this > fundamentalism? Or are we really stuck in some sort of rut? > > > While voting, we, those who celebrate on SC judgment on Hussain, would > vote either a congress or a Left. But isn't it true that not a > single Congresswalla has ever come out boldly in support of > Hussain . > And we know how the The Left went terribly wrong with Taslima > Nasreen's issue. Narender Modi kind of politicians are doing their > business on expected lines. Now, who are these 'we' who love to call > themselves 'saner' part of the society and want to be protected by > Law? Are we really unwanted ? > > > This time it is clear that the Judiciary is divided on the issue of > Hussain. People in general will laugh, and the Hon arable Judges will > issue orders to arrest me, if I publicly demand the immediate > resignation of those High Court Judges who found 'Hussain' dangerous > for our society. Because if they don't have an understanding of > Art ( > even if it is not art ) why do we expect some justice from them in > some other cases even. Or, am I unnecessarily too worried about the > rot in our Administration. We know how corrupt can be a Judge. And > do we finally need a Judge to Judge a painting or a work of art ? > > > The attack on Manjit Singh explains one thing very clearly that there > are enough people in India who don't respect the Law of the Land. It > is a paradox . > > On the list, regarding discussion on Kashmir, those who vehemently > oppose the just cause of Kashmiri freedom struggle, often talk about > the disrespect to the Law of Land by Kashmiri Muslims. > > It is interesting to note that those who strongly oppose ' Law of the > Land' here criticize the other... > > So in this case, SC judgement on Hussain, do they have a comment > on that ? > > > > With love > > Inder salim > > > > p.s. enjoyed to see your JUGAADOO.COM > > > > On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 11:22 AM, Alexander Keefe > wrote: > > > > Meanwhile, the "miscreants" are at it again, this time with a > rather less > > exalted target. The public discourse on contemporary art in > this country > > seems to oscillate between two equally mythological black-box > entities: "the > > market" and "sentiment". I'm waiting for the article that > brings them > > together: "The Economics of Having Your Art Show Trashed by > Hooligans".> Until then: > > > > http://www.thehindu.com/2008/09/10/stories/2008091061950300.htm > > > > *Paintings exhibition vandalised * > > > > NEW DELHI: A group of hooligans vandalised a paintings > exhibition titled > > "Kamayani" by Manjit Singh at India Habitat Centre here on Tuesday. > > > > Over half-a-dozen persons donning saffron scarves stormed into the > > exhibition hall and smashed the paintings and raised slogans. > They also > > manhandled Manjit Singh who had to be taken to the All-India > Institute of > > Medical Sciences. The miscreants fled before the private > security guards at > > India Habitat Centre could reach the spot. > > > > A senior police officer said: "It is difficult to say which > organisation was > > behind the attack." > > > > According to Manjit Singh's son Jasvinder, a couple of visitors > had made > > some adverse comments on the paintings in the visitors' book on > Monday,> saying the paintings were against Hindu culture. > > > > The four-day exhibition was to end on Tuesday. > > > > > > On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 10:54 PM, Yousuf wrote: > > > > > SC refuses to take action against M F Husain > > > > > > NEW DELHI: The Supreme Court refused to initiate criminal > proceedings> > against noted painter M F Husain for allegedly > hurting public sentiments > > > through some of his paintings that were dubbed as obscene. > > > > > > "There are many such pictures, paintings and sculptures and > some of them > > > are in temples also," a bench headed by Chief Justice K G > Balakrishnan said, > > > dismissing one such petition. > > > > > > The bench, also comprising Justices P Sathasivam and J M > Panchal, was not > > > impressed with the argument that Hussain was taking advantage > of his age and > > > reputation to get away with the law by painting obscene pictures. > > > > > > One such creation of the painter, titled Bharat Mata, was > brought before > > > the apex court for its scrutiny. > > > > > > Maharashtra-based Dwaipayan Venkateshacharya Varkhedkar had > challenged a > > > Delhi High Court verdict quashing the criminal proceedings > initiated against > > > the eminent painter in Maharashtra, Madhya Pradesh and Gujarat. > > > > > > Husain's paintings,depicting Bharat Mata and Hindu gods and > goddesses, had > > > created a furore. Husain had started receiving threats from > right-wing > > > groups like the VHP and the Bajrang Dal. Husain is living in a > self-imposed > > > exile in Dubai now. > > > > > > The proceedings against the painter were initiated on the > basis of > > > complaints filed in Panderpur (Maharastra), Rajkot (Gujarat) > and Indore > > > (Madhya Pradesh) claiming that his paintings were obscene and > that they hurt > > > public sentiments. > > > > > > The criminal complaints filed in various places were shifted > to the Patiala > > > House district courts in the Capital after the artist had > approached the > > > apex court. > > > > > > After the transfer of cases, Husain, 90, had filed a petition > in the Delhi > > > High Court for quashing the complaints which was allowed on > May 8 this year. > > > > > > > > > > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/SC_refuses_to_take_action_against_M_F_Husain/articleshow/3459623.cms> > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list> > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > -- > > jugaadoo.blogspot.com > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From jeebesh at sarai.net Thu Sep 11 19:35:11 2008 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 19:35:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] A post-national space opens. Message-ID: <8031BA28-E559-4475-8A1E-CB1754B59060@sarai.net> http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20080904&fname=umair&sid=1 The Azadi We Need The azadi demanded by the Kashmiri movement, and used by Roy as a rallying cry, is not the answer. The freedom we need is azadi from the mindset that thinks of peoples and communities only in terms of nation- states; and equally, an azadi that demands that the Indian state honour its promise, to itself and to us. Umair Ahmed Muhajir From jeebesh at sarai.net Thu Sep 11 19:50:40 2008 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 19:50:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Full text... Message-ID: http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20080904&fname=umair&sid=1 The Azadi We Need The azadi demanded by the Kashmiri movement, and used by Roy as a rallying cry, is not the answer. The freedom we need is azadi from the mindset that thinks of peoples and communities only in terms of nation- states; and equally, an azadi that demands that the Indian state honour its promise, to itself and to us. Umair Ahmed Muhajir Towards the end of her impassioned piece calling for azadi for Kashmir, Arundhati Roy pauses to reflect on what might follow azadi in Kashmir, wondering what an independent Kashmir might mean, including what the independence demanded by the state's Muslim majority might mean for the state's religious or other minorities. She does well not to linger, because the thought experiment illustrates precisely what is most problematic about "national movements", namely that they are unable to think the political except through the prism of nation-states. National movements, that is to say, see themselves as nation-states-in- waiting, and do not see any political horizon beyond that of the nation-state. So was it with the Indian national movement, and its inability to think the difference that might have been capacious enough to house the country's Muslim-majority regions; so it definitely was with the Muslim League and its two-nation theory, even more wedded to the siren song of European-style nationalism transplanted to a colonial setting; and so it is with the "copycat" nationalisms that have followed, be it Kashmir, or Punjab, or Nagaland. The failure to imagine a nation-state different from the traditional European model, the shoe-horning of Indian communitarian identities, into models conceived with the likes of Germany and England in mind, paved the way for the catastrophes of partition. The "belated" nationalisms of the post-partition sub-continent demonstrate the truth of Marx's depressing observation, namely that we learn from history that we do not learn from history. The point is worth making given Roy's trenchant critiques of the Indian state (in the context of Kashmir, but not only of Kashmir; her essay on the Indian state and dams, The Greater Common Good, is astonishingly powerful). That is, much of Roy's critique -- of the Indian state's indifference, its callousness, its inhumanity, its cruelty -- is (or certainly ought to be) animated not by her target's Indianness, but by the fact that it is a nation-state, and as such, does what nation-states do: in the final analysis, sacrifice humanity in the service of a larger political project. The distinction is an important one, because nothing in the Kashmiri independence movement suggests that it will throw up anything different; indeed given that the movement aims at a traditional nation-state just like all the others, I submit that it cannot yield a different result. Minority rights? Justice for different communities, and between genders? The outcomes will be better than they are now, we are told by the movement, not because the aims are different from those of the existing Indian state, but because the movement will simply do a better job. I am skeptical, and not because of the identity (religious or otherwise) of those who comprise the Kashmiri independence movement; I am skeptical because the aim of that movement is congenitally incapable of producing a result that is "better" in some cosmic sense -- at most the identities of those disadvantaged will shift, as new disfavoured minorities, new "outsiders", new "insiders", and new identity policemen are created. Roy is too sophisticated not to see this, but doesn't bother to delve into it, pretending that this is merely a question of the Kashmiri separatists not having spelled out their agenda in greater detail as yet. It is not: over half a century ago, Hannah Arendt wrote (in The Origins of Totalitarianism) of the masses of refugees and victims that seemed to accompany the birth of every new nation-state, and nothing has changed, not in the age of South Ossetia, Kosovo, Rwanda, ad nauseum. Certainly, those of us from the sub-continent should be especially wary of political projects that promise us clean solutions to intractable political problems: we live with the legacies of the bloodbaths of the 1940s, not to mention innumerable later, "lesser" massacres. By all accounts, the leaders of the new nation-states of India and Pakistan were caught by surprise by the scale of the violence in 1947; they had evidently internalized the logic of colonialism, pursuant to which communitarian difference presents a political "problem" that may be solved by means of creative cartography and judicious population transfers. Conceptual neatness is one of the hallmarks of the colonial mindset (thinking of Cyril Radcliffe, who could doubt it?). Unfortunately, reality is anything but, and the sub-continent's leaders -- and, even more importantly, its people -- should have learned long ago that partitions are not the solution to people's inability to live together; rather, the mindset that vests its faith in drawing easily-policed borders is a mindset that demands enemies. It is a mindset that, in the final analysis, demands that facts on the ground correspond to the political project of the nation-state (and not the other way around). A nation-state for Muslims thus becomes a state virtually free of non-Muslims; a sub-national state where Hindu pride is honoured above all else becomes a state where non-Hindus must know their place. Why would one ever hope for anything different from a nation-state for Kashmiris, as far as those who don't fit the bill are concerned? Certainly the region is not short of candidates for stigmatisation (some of this is because India is fantastically diverse; some of it is because nation-states are rather gifted at manufacturing "problematic" identities): Buddhists; Shiites; Gujjars; perhaps even Sunni Muslims who will be deemed insufficiently supportive of the independence movement (the last is hardly far-fetched, as even a casual glance at the history of Algeria or the Khalistan movement, or Kashmir itself during the 1990s, makes clear). Indeed, several hundred thousand Kashmiri Pandits have already been driven off, and it is hard not to see in them a harbinger of more to come. The above might seem like an odd place from which to maintain a defense of India vis-à-vis Kashmir. It is, on the contrary, a natural vantage point: the idea of an independent Kashmir for Kashmiris must be resisted precisely because, as the experience of the once-colonised has amply illustrated, nation-states are appallingly inhuman. Equally, however, they are not all inhuman in precisely the same way; nor are they all equally inhuman, by which I simply mean that they are not all equally incapable of accommodating human difference, whether communitarian or otherwise. The Germany of 2008 is manifestly not the Germany of 1938; but nor does the Germany of 2008 accommodate ethnic minorities as comfortably as the United States does. None of this relieves any state of moral responsibility for the horrors it perpetrates; but in order to agitate against horrors, one must first understand what they are. And within the range of nation-states on offer -- all of them problematic, all of them complicit in cruelty -- it is apparent to me that those premised on explicit notions of religion, language, ethnicity, blood in some sense, are more problematic, more complicit, than those with far more modest litmus tests. The contemporary United States, Brazil, South Africa, and, yes, India, are among the latter group of nation-states; Germany, Switzerland, Italy, Pakistan, and, based on the logic of the movements, the would-be nation-states of Kashmir or Khalistan, are not. Theoretically, one does not need to be other than "wholly Bengali", "wholly Tamil", or "wholly Muslim" in order to be utterly Indian; one cannot say the same of Pakistan and its Hindus citizens, and the religious colour of the Kashmiri movement means it is almost inconceivable that this won't be true of an independent Kashmir as well (even leaving aside the obvious ethnic dimension). Indeed, even if one were to take the likes of Yasin Malik at their word, they promise no more than Jawaharlal Nehru did, that is to say a secular state where all who live in Kashmir, of whatever ethnicity or religious persuasion, will be equal in the eyes of the state; why and how could such a project -- essentially the same Nehruvian show on a smaller stage -- yield a better result? On the contrary, all the signs are that an independent Kashmir would be more like Pakistan than India: not because both are Muslim majority (that is irrelevant to the point I am making), but because both movements are explicitly predicated on a favoured community that is less than everyone who lives within the state's borders. Why does any of this matter? Because nation-states where "second- class" citizenship is implicit -- think the United States prior to de- segregation; I assume Roy would include India; but really one could argue some are always more equal than others in all nation-states -- can be called out on their failures. Such nation-states are guilty of hypocrisy, but hypocrisy is not the worst sin; indeed hypocrisy, by opening up a gap between theory and practice, between promise and reality, makes it possible to hold a mirror up to the state, to try and compel it to honour its own promise to itself; and enables us to argue that the nation-state is only imperfectly itself until it takes a good long look in that mirror. In short, the point is that while the Jim Crow South is unforgiveable, the civil rights movement and Martin Luther King's "I Have a Dream" moment are possible in a USA where actual practice made a mockery of the nation-state's constitutional guarantees of equal protection under the laws; they would not be possible in the face of apartheid South Africa, which could not be reformed, simply destroyed. It is far more difficult, perhaps insurmountably so, to call the nation-state to task where it has promised and can promise nothing different than what it offers (one can rebel and try and dismantle the state, but one can't make it see the problem): beyond a point, a "Pakistan for Pakistanis", that is to say for Pakistanis of all religious persuasions, would make no sense, and would undermine the national idea (substitute "ethnicities" for "religious communities" and the idea of Pakistan becomes more flexible; it should come as no surprise that the movement for ethnic justice, greater federalism, and rights for smaller provinces, has far more legs in Pakistan than any movement for the rights of religious minorities; ethnicity illustrates the potential flexibility, but also the limits, of the idea of Pakistan; and even with respect to ethnicity, the difference of even a Bengali Muslim identity that was deemed "too Hindu" could not be accommodated within the state). A "Kashmir for Kashmiris" is far closer to the idea of Pakistan than to the Nehru's India, and perhaps closest of all to Bangladesh, seeking to compress both 1947 and 1971 in one secessionist moment. Roy would do well to remember the "Biharis" stranded in refugee camps in Bangladesh since 1971, Muslim but not Bangladeshi enough; and she herself mentions the 1971 genocide of Bengalis by the Pakistani army, who were not Muslim enough. The promise of the Kashmiri movement combines both of these nightmares. None of this is about the decency or lack thereof of Mirwaiz Farooq, or Yasin Malik, or anyone else. The question isn't whether these are or are not upstanding politicians who genuinely believe that Kashmir belongs to all Kashmiris, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, or Sikh, or not; the more important question concerns the logic of what they let loose in the world (more accurately, the logic that they and would-be nationalists of all stripes have attempted to replicate for decades). The azadi demanded by the Kashmiri movement, and used by Roy as a rallying cry, is not the answer to that question; the freedom we need is azadi from the mindset that thinks of peoples and communities only in terms of nation-states; and equally, an azadi that demands that the Indian state honour its promise, to itself and to us. The nation-state as political Alpha and Omega was problematic in its European birthplaces to begin with; to continue to cling to it as the last best hope of ethnic or religious minorities in milieus like India's (or Africa's, or the Balkans'; pick your poison), in the wake of the man-made disasters that have befallen us over the last century, is nothing short of bankrupt. Umair Ahmed Muhajir is based in New York City. When not blogging at qalandari.blogspot.com or contributing to naachgaana.com, he makes a living as a lawyer. From indersalim at gmail.com Thu Sep 11 22:33:06 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 22:33:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] SC refuses to take action against M F Husain In-Reply-To: References: <725407.94697.qm@web51410.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <47e122a70809100929y50f4b282y5735bd6d199e5729@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70809111003h4cc23a0fmb71f3aad7e99ab7f@mail.gmail.com> dear radhikarajan i want you to see the other side of moon as well. after writing a full para on corrupt judges, i expect you to appreicate the SC judgement on Hussain, and condemn the political goons who vandalise the exhibition in galleries. is On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 5:47 PM, wrote: > Inder, > > let us not forget that the judges are also from the same society and the system that we live in, till now we are not keen to confront the judiciary and media as in any democracy these are the only two institutions which are relatively "clean" but alas, that euphoria is also waning in society as we get informed by the media that sitting and retired judges have siphoned off in crores from the pf accounts of judiciary. Sons of a retired SC chief justice avail 600 crores sitting in the official residence of the judge. A Supreme court judge has fudged his birth certificate to get extra time on the bench, a sitting judge of the high court has taken 36 lakhs as his personal funds as a receiver, "criminal" lawyers have inflienced for big money the outcome of many judgements, judges of high court get courier service delivering 15 lakhs and some buy lands in states where they are not entitled to buy. But blacksheep in media who become spin doctors to a political party, judges who ke > ep quiet when crores are defreezed in London without the knowledge of the court, the act being carried out by the law minister and the solicitor general does not augur well for the confidence that society implies on both the media and judiciary. CBI, premier investigation agency purring like cat for the rich and powerful has lost credibilty along with some blacksheep in judiciary and media personnel who are selective even in "journalism. > > Lots of love and regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: inder salim > Date: Thursday, September 11, 2008 12:56 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] SC refuses to take action against M F Husain > To: reader-list at sarai.net > >> Dear Alaxendra >> >> >> Thanks for reporting the sad news of Manjit Singh. The artist >> needs a >> full support from all of us. Here, by 'us' I means the saner part of >> the society, because those who vandalize shows in galleries on this >> pretext or that are finally possessing a sick mind. And those who >> support, or are silent about such actions are equally to be blamed. >> >> >> Now I visualize Bharat Mata ( untitled by artist ) Painting by MF >> Hussain, with a seal and stamp of Supreme Court. It is indeed an >> occasion to celebrate the product which has now ISI ( Indian >> standards institution ) mark on it. It is like a mosquito-repellent >> which is injurious to our lungs but it kills those insects who spread >> deadly disease like dengue and malaria. >> >> >> So, in short we need to support a Hussain, a Taslima, a Manjit Singh, >> a Chander Mohan in India. That is the need of hour. But how to keep >> the population of these right winged insects in check. Is our >> ('stagnant') way of living finally responsible for the growth of this >> fundamentalism? Or are we really stuck in some sort of rut? >> >> >> While voting, we, those who celebrate on SC judgment on Hussain, would >> vote either a congress or a Left. But isn't it true that not a >> single Congresswalla has ever come out boldly in support of >> Hussain . >> And we know how the The Left went terribly wrong with Taslima >> Nasreen's issue. Narender Modi kind of politicians are doing their >> business on expected lines. Now, who are these 'we' who love to call >> themselves 'saner' part of the society and want to be protected by >> Law? Are we really unwanted ? >> >> >> This time it is clear that the Judiciary is divided on the issue of >> Hussain. People in general will laugh, and the Hon arable Judges will >> issue orders to arrest me, if I publicly demand the immediate >> resignation of those High Court Judges who found 'Hussain' dangerous >> for our society. Because if they don't have an understanding of >> Art ( >> even if it is not art ) why do we expect some justice from them in >> some other cases even. Or, am I unnecessarily too worried about the >> rot in our Administration. We know how corrupt can be a Judge. And >> do we finally need a Judge to Judge a painting or a work of art ? >> >> >> The attack on Manjit Singh explains one thing very clearly that there >> are enough people in India who don't respect the Law of the Land. It >> is a paradox . >> >> On the list, regarding discussion on Kashmir, those who vehemently >> oppose the just cause of Kashmiri freedom struggle, often talk about >> the disrespect to the Law of Land by Kashmiri Muslims. >> >> It is interesting to note that those who strongly oppose ' Law of the >> Land' here criticize the other... >> >> So in this case, SC judgement on Hussain, do they have a comment >> on that ? >> >> >> >> With love >> >> Inder salim >> >> >> >> p.s. enjoyed to see your JUGAADOO.COM >> >> >> >> On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 11:22 AM, Alexander Keefe >> wrote: >> > >> > Meanwhile, the "miscreants" are at it again, this time with a >> rather less >> > exalted target. The public discourse on contemporary art in >> this country >> > seems to oscillate between two equally mythological black-box >> entities: "the >> > market" and "sentiment". I'm waiting for the article that >> brings them >> > together: "The Economics of Having Your Art Show Trashed by >> Hooligans".> Until then: >> > >> > http://www.thehindu.com/2008/09/10/stories/2008091061950300.htm >> > >> > *Paintings exhibition vandalised * >> > >> > NEW DELHI: A group of hooligans vandalised a paintings >> exhibition titled >> > "Kamayani" by Manjit Singh at India Habitat Centre here on Tuesday. >> > >> > Over half-a-dozen persons donning saffron scarves stormed into the >> > exhibition hall and smashed the paintings and raised slogans. >> They also >> > manhandled Manjit Singh who had to be taken to the All-India >> Institute of >> > Medical Sciences. The miscreants fled before the private >> security guards at >> > India Habitat Centre could reach the spot. >> > >> > A senior police officer said: "It is difficult to say which >> organisation was >> > behind the attack." >> > >> > According to Manjit Singh's son Jasvinder, a couple of visitors >> had made >> > some adverse comments on the paintings in the visitors' book on >> Monday,> saying the paintings were against Hindu culture. >> > >> > The four-day exhibition was to end on Tuesday. >> > >> > >> > On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 10:54 PM, Yousuf wrote: >> > >> > > SC refuses to take action against M F Husain >> > > >> > > NEW DELHI: The Supreme Court refused to initiate criminal >> proceedings> > against noted painter M F Husain for allegedly >> hurting public sentiments >> > > through some of his paintings that were dubbed as obscene. >> > > >> > > "There are many such pictures, paintings and sculptures and >> some of them >> > > are in temples also," a bench headed by Chief Justice K G >> Balakrishnan said, >> > > dismissing one such petition. >> > > >> > > The bench, also comprising Justices P Sathasivam and J M >> Panchal, was not >> > > impressed with the argument that Hussain was taking advantage >> of his age and >> > > reputation to get away with the law by painting obscene pictures. >> > > >> > > One such creation of the painter, titled Bharat Mata, was >> brought before >> > > the apex court for its scrutiny. >> > > >> > > Maharashtra-based Dwaipayan Venkateshacharya Varkhedkar had >> challenged a >> > > Delhi High Court verdict quashing the criminal proceedings >> initiated against >> > > the eminent painter in Maharashtra, Madhya Pradesh and Gujarat. >> > > >> > > Husain's paintings,depicting Bharat Mata and Hindu gods and >> goddesses, had >> > > created a furore. Husain had started receiving threats from >> right-wing >> > > groups like the VHP and the Bajrang Dal. Husain is living in a >> self-imposed >> > > exile in Dubai now. >> > > >> > > The proceedings against the painter were initiated on the >> basis of >> > > complaints filed in Panderpur (Maharastra), Rajkot (Gujarat) >> and Indore >> > > (Madhya Pradesh) claiming that his paintings were obscene and >> that they hurt >> > > public sentiments. >> > > >> > > The criminal complaints filed in various places were shifted >> to the Patiala >> > > House district courts in the Capital after the artist had >> approached the >> > > apex court. >> > > >> > > After the transfer of cases, Husain, 90, had filed a petition >> in the Delhi >> > > High Court for quashing the complaints which was allowed on >> May 8 this year. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/SC_refuses_to_take_action_against_M_F_Husain/articleshow/3459623.cms> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > _________________________________________ >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > > subscribe in the subject header. >> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >> list> > List archive: >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > jugaadoo.blogspot.com >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> with subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: >> >> >> -- >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >> list >> List archive: > > > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From indersalim at gmail.com Thu Sep 11 23:29:39 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 23:29:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions In-Reply-To: <309273B0-39DF-46BF-8DBF-A3164B27168A@dannybutt.net> References: <47e122a70809030644g483a5b2en985bbcd466c44c9b@mail.gmail.com> <319517.61062.qm@web51407.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <47e122a70809031030l8c80ad2p2699cebbeb999893@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809040209x36039c0fjde7275560b7eb74a@mail.gmail.com> <4B78567A-0D07-4FC3-98FF-8A26707FF690@dannybutt.net> <47e122a70809050748m2404fb8dh9ce65637678f1579@mail.gmail.com> <309273B0-39DF-46BF-8DBF-A3164B27168A@dannybutt.net> Message-ID: <47e122a70809111059j8520ee4qa97a04c1adc3977b@mail.gmail.com> Dear Danny thanks for this wonderful reflection. you have brought a freshness to the debate, and you are not late. there is nothing to apologise. AND yes, you can comment on M.F.Hussain. if you are interstested in anything that is debated as post-colonial , here and in the west even. Also because i feel i can talk aboiut Picasso as smoothly as a westerner would, so can you on Hussain, in spite of the fact that Hussain is not a great artists as Picasso is, but Hussain isa post-colonial aritst, and denying him absolutely would tantamount to 'hurt' of some other kind. in many senses that one we are truly global, so we understand each other, appriciate each other, and even the form, even the style is similar in many cases than one. The diffrence is disappearing. We are unfortunately creating a difference through a range of 'hurt' inflicted on the other. That way the situation is quite complex as 'we are caught in the labyrinth of paradoxes', i quote Micheal Focualt. i have not read ' righting wrongs' by Spivak , but the title itself speaks about the sadness of our times. But what is intersting for all of us perhaps, is the fact that we we live, and we keep on living in whatever society there is available. we make a culture to tick, a song that speaks about a memory, a generation that changes,but at the same times drags on with the strange porridge of a past. what we are ? i love life, in spite of the terrible state of affairs around the world. a world full of pain and mess, in spite of the fact that our personal and private problems often push mars our forward thrust, but we emerge, and for that reason alone we need to know the other, and realize the self. enough for the day love is On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 4:13 PM, Danny Butt wrote: > Dear Inder, all > > My sincere apologies for the delay in responding. I've been suffering > my own "hurt" of an entirely different kind (flu virus). It is, of > course, completely incommensurable with the scale of hurt that accrues > when a culture puts in place ideologies to move others to the less > than human. Nevertheless, it is a very useful space for someone like > myself (white, male, native English-speaking - a kind of unofficially > anointed inheritor of this "global" a previous generation created) to > consider the question of a hurt which arises from an external force, > which is then somehow internalised. That's not to say that I've been > colonised by the virus, but my own agency is sort of productively > hobbled :). > > I really can't comment too much on Husain, but I would like to > acknowledge your statement (also acknowledged by Aarti) that "The > question of 'hurt' is truly democratic." Increasingly, I see the > questions you and Aarti raise as critical ones to address in the > question of democracy and the public sphere. Without the ability to > acknowledge the hurt, pleasure, freedom, unfreedom of others > (regardless of one's own situation), democracy is always tenuous. The > various attempts to embed a level of respect for the rights of others > in the rule of law is certainly an important enterprise. But as > Gayatri Chakravorty Spivak ("Righting Wrongs", 2004) approvingly > quotes Ronald Dworkin ["Taking Rights Seriously", 1978]: > > "the right to concern and respect is fundamental among rights in a > different way, because it shows how the idea of a collective goal may > itself be derived from that fundamental right. If so, then concern and > respect is a right so fundamental that it is not captured by the > general characterization of rights as trumps over collective goals, > except as a limiting case, because it is the source both of the > general authority of collective goals and of the special limitations > on their authority that justify more particular rights. That promise > of unity in political theory is indistinct in these essays, however. > It must be defended, if at all, elsewhere.'" > > A slightly abstract description, but as Spivak notes: "To take his > statement here as a final solution to the entire problem is to > ''confuse the force of his [argument] for its range,''.... Where I > find Ronald Dworkin altogether inspiring is in his insistence on > principle rather than policy in hard cases. The range of this > insistence has an elasticity that can accommodate the force of my plea > to the dominant." > > Perhaps here we sense the need for a kind of openness or indeterminacy > to be held between principle, policy, and affect. (This is the kind of > indeterminacy I felt Aarti was surfacing in her post). It is certainly > a space which holds increasing importance in my own work. > > All the best, > > Danny > > -- > http://www.dannybutt.net > > > > > On 6/09/2008, at 2:48 AM, inder salim wrote: > >> Dear Danny Butt, >> >> Here in India we are made to believe that M.F. Huaain's paintings have >> angered Hindus. If so, we are merely gulping down the throat what is >> being offered to us. I believe, people on the List and elsewhere, >> need to express their emancipated views while dealing with >> subjectivities which are exclusively aesthetic in nature. It quickly >> lapses into communsalism and hate. >> >> how ' this causes this' gets inverted with the passage of time is too >> interesting to read. It could be seen even then , but needs a >> 'creative eye' . Picasso is just a example, of knowing how European >> colonialism of Africa might have caused, let us say a Gurenica, to >> happen much earlier before the world war 2nd which made picasso to see >> Civil war in Spain and other such things. Here, this also will be >> interesting to note that Picasso was 'high jacked' by the market, and >> the subject 'death' danced a la aesthetic. Here, it is also note >> worthy that Picasso also worked his compositions from the war >> photographs in the press and also from the African masks. Picasso >> himself says, that he does not know whether he is a good artist or >> not, but he is a good craftsman. I think he was clear to a large >> extent, and he had to courage to abandon his successful style at the >> stage of a career when very few artists dare to do so. >> >> On the contrary Hussain had little choice when he began to kiss ' the >> modern' That was OUR fate, and we continue to reel under the impact >> of that 'modern' which was promoted as global as the same time. So >> post colonial, which has its own dynamics, depth and relevance, like >> Bollywood is not merely a derivate of Hollywood, Indian modern >> paintings too are not simply Western, but something which we can own, >> even in the absence of a coherence. Hussain has indeed worked overtime >> to bring that Indian into the form which was seen purely as modern. >> That truly is, and nothing more. >> >> Even if we enter a new phase of post-modern / art-now kind of Indian >> art scene, we cannot simply can not say that Indian modern art, >> (painting and sculpture) does not exist. Because any representation >> of India, even with some pretension of the modern, offends the Hindu >> nationalists, The paintings which have caused this anger in some >> fanatic hindus can be seen through this perspective. This is also >> speaks the darker side of democracy in a post colonial free India. >> This anger is part of the process that brought down a 400 year old >> mosque by these hindu fanatics, jut to come to power in the centre. >> They managed it, and are not out of race this time again. So defending >> Hussain is so urgent for a modern democratic and secular citizen >> living in India. >> >> That is that. Your response, with passage from Lauran Bernat to >> Aarti's question on HURT is really profound and demands a sincere >> discourse. Please forward his complete article. >> >> The question of 'hurt' is truly democratic. This is how Aarti puts it >> lucidly "that it posits a horizon of desire that is unachievable for >> the people it uses for the ad" . Our progress in the modern has no >> space for hurt, perhaps because it posits its being in the machine >> exclusively. This modern machine thing has simultaneously given >> monopoly over ' the hurt' to religious believers only. That is >> indeed undemocratic. To expand the definition of 'hurt' we need to >> enter a word like 'environment'. A tree, a river, a simple identity, >> a simple dignity of the individual can be seen as environmental, only >> if there is some challenge to the value judgment unleashed by the >> capitalists. How else "we are to fashion any sort of language to >> deal with the violence of the present". I quote Aarti again. >> >> So, Art that is overwhelmingly part of the capitalist investment, and >> is bereft of that urge to challenge the horizon of desire that has no >> space for the people that it uses it, and no space for the earth that >> uses it. To quote Tee Bee Di "Hmm.. Who is not an artist? " I feel >> everybody, only if there is a radical thought in place. >> >> The question of 'hurt' is therefore, political, and can not be seen >> only in the so called acts of profanation of the sacred. It is quite >> ironical that how people are so close to the realities of mythologies >> which are so distant, and so distant to the realities that is >> intimate. >> >> How has all this happened? >> >> With love >> inder salim >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 3:43 PM, Danny Butt wrote: >>> Kia ora all >>> >>> I've also been learning a lot from the recent discussion, as I try to >>> map these conversations back onto the very different cultural >>> histories (though equally fragmented perhaps, if less recently as >>> bloody) here in Aotearoa New Zealand. >>> >>> Having seen a huge retrospective of Picasso's work (and collection) >>> close to my hometown recently, I couldn't help but be struck by the >>> fact that while it might be true that, as Yousuf says, "Picasso >>> probably never had people killing each others angered by his >>> paintings", it is nevertheless equally true that his work is >>> unthinkable without the death that accompanied the European >>> colonisation of Africa and the Pacific. The works in his collection >>> acquired from those regions seem to take on additional significance >>> when read in light of that history. So perhaps the question of time, >>> where we sequence events and consequences to say "this causes this", >>> becomes inverted and displaced in situations where the affect seems >>> to >>> precede the event of production. In some respects, when hurt is >>> experienced, the potential of that hurt seems to have been structured >>> in advance. >>> >>> This was just one of the thoughts brought to mind by Aarti's very >>> productive questions. While I am not really fluent enough in the >>> specific issues which prompted this discussion to comment more >>> specifically, I would like to share a quote from a writer that I have >>> learnt a lot from about the issues Aarti raises, which I think does >>> speak to the recent discussions on the list. >>> >>> "The exposed traumas of workers in ongoing extreme conditions do not >>> generally induce more than mourning on the part of the state and the >>> public culture to whose feeling-based opinions the state is said to >>> respond. Mourning is what happens when a grounding object is lost, is >>> dead, no longer living (to you). Mourning is an experience of >>> irreducible boundedness: I am here, I am living. He is dead, I am >>> mourning. It is a beautiful, not sublime, experience of emancipation: >>> mourning supplies the subject the definitional perfection of a being >>> no longer in flux. It takes place over a distance: even if the object >>> who induces the feeling of loss and helplessness is neither dead nor >>> at any great distance from where you are. In other words, mourning >>> can >>> also be an act of aggression, of social deathmaking: it can perform >>> the evacuation of significance from actually-existing subjects. Even >>> when liberals do it, one might say, "others" are ghosted for a good >>> cause. The sorrow songs of scandal that sing of the exploitation that >>> is always "elsewhere" (even a few blocks away) are in this sense >>> aggressively songs of mourning. Play them backward, and the military >>> march of capitalist triumphalism (The Trans-Nationale) can be heard. >>> Its lyric, currently crooned by every organ of record in the United >>> States, is about necessity. It exhorts citizens to understand that >>> the >>> "bottom line" of national life is neither utopia nor freedom but >>> survival, which can only be achieved by a citizenry that eats its >>> anger, makes no unreasonable claims on resources or control over >>> value, and uses its most creative energy to cultivate intimate >>> spheres >>> while scrapping a life together flexibly in response to the market >>> world's caprice." >>> >>> Lauren Berlant, "The Subject of True Feeling: Pain, Privacy, and >>> Politics", in Austin Sarat and Thomas R. Kearns (eds.) Cultural >>> Pluralism, Identity Politics, and the Law. Ann Arbor: University of >>> Michigan Press. 1999. >>> >>> (In the notes for this paragraph Berlant references Douglas Crimp and >>> the politics of AIDS in the US: "Crimp is especially astute on the >>> necessary articulation of sentimentality and politics: because >>> processes of legitimation cannot do without the production of >>> consent, >>> and empathetic misrecognition is one tactic for creating it. The >>> question is how, and at what cost, different kinds of subjects and >>> contexts of empathy are imagined in the struggle for radical social >>> transformation.") >>> >>> I'd be happy to forward a PDF of Berlant's article to anyone who is >>> interested in these questions of subjectivity, affect, and public >>> recognition. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Danny >>> >>> -- >>> http://www.dannybutt.net >>> >>> On 4/09/2008, at 9:09 PM, Aarti Sethi wrote: >>> >>>> A few thoughts on an interesting discussion. >>>> >>>> One term I think that has remained unexamined in this discussion is >>>> "hurt" >>>> or "sentiment". By this I mean not an assessment of whether that >>>> hurt is >>>> justified, valid etc, who is to decide whether this offends or not, >>>> whether >>>> this is offensive or not, the relative self-sufficiency of value >>>> systems and >>>> speaking across them. But the inherent value of hurt as a positive >>>> force in >>>> itself. Let me try and explain what I mean. >>>> >>>> Why is "hurt sentiment" a bad thing in itself? Can having one's >>>> sentiments >>>> hurt, sometimes quite badly, not be a positive force? Might it not >>>> impell me >>>> to re-think, or think, about my sentiments in a manner that is >>>> creative? >>>> Maybe those sentiments are better discarded. Maybe my outrage alerts >>>> me to a >>>> violence I have been commiting without realising it. Maybe if more >>>> people's >>>> sentiments were outraged a little more forcefully, then we would be >>>> living >>>> in a far more democratic and tolerant world. >>>> >>>> Further, I do not see why only religious communities have a monopoly >>>> on >>>> sentiments which can then be hurt. As a feminist, my sentiments are >>>> assaulted on a routine and regular basis. As someone who believes >>>> in a >>>> version of social justice and equality, once articulated by, but not >>>> only >>>> by, Marx for instance, my feelings are continually trampled over. As >>>> someone >>>> who believes in a secular vision, the discussions on this list >>>> offend me >>>> everyday. However i do not see this being taken very seriously. >>>> And it >>>> needn't, that is the point. It is up to me to alchemize this >>>> outrage, hurt, >>>> sadness in a manner that enables me to live and act in the world. >>>> >>>> This is actually how we live our lives generally. My mother, or >>>> father, or >>>> lover, or friend might say something that hurts me terribly. Not >>>> always is >>>> this clarified, discussed, put in its right perspective. All our >>>> lives are >>>> all littered with silent archives of hurts we have never expressed. >>>> There is >>>> no heroic moment in which resolution is sought for hurts. And no one >>>> can do >>>> this for anyone... >>>> >>>> The recent Vogue advertisements doing the rounds, around which there >>>> has >>>> been some discussion on this list, have hurt the sentiments of many >>>> people. >>>> A few years ago another set of advertisements for brand equity in >>>> which two >>>> tribal women are shown discussing the tans they have got in Monte >>>> Carlo to >>>> an accompanying snide and contemptous copy which said something >>>> about how >>>> advertisers need to accurately reach their consumers, also outraged >>>> many of >>>> us. Having thought about this, I realised that though both the Vogue >>>> ads and >>>> the brand equity ads trouble me, they do so in different ways. >>>> >>>> The Vogue ads can be read in one of many ways - that it posits a >>>> horizon of >>>> desire that is unachievable for the people it uses for the ad. In >>>> some sense >>>> then the frisson of the ad derives from the discrepancy in what is >>>> desired >>>> and what is possible. Further it assumes that their horizon of >>>> desire will >>>> follow the trajectory laid out by Vogue. But most interesting to me >>>> is that >>>> both Vogue and the critics work with a fixed definition of poverty >>>> in the >>>> first place, and certain trajectory of the direction a life can >>>> take. >>>> >>>> The second set of ads function on precisely the opposite principle. >>>> Rather >>>> than positing an eventual horizon of desire, they deem a present >>>> life as >>>> failed, and urges us to recognise its failure. It presumes and makes >>>> me >>>> complicit in a social consensus in which we can use languages in a >>>> manner as >>>> if we are all agreed on the terms in operation. >>>> >>>> Can you see the difference in both ads? They both trouble me deeply, >>>> but >>>> they trouble me in different ways. How is this at all useful, or >>>> valuable? I >>>> think it is. I think to be able to carefully work through how and >>>> why and in >>>> what ways something arrives to me and what it disturbs is a critical >>>> thing, >>>> if we are to fashion any sort of language to deal with the violence >>>> of the >>>> present. >>>> >>>> with regards >>>> Aarti >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 11:00 PM, inder salim >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> dear yousuf >>>>> >>>>> thanks for response. >>>>> >>>>> no i dont agree that people are killing each other because Hussain >>>>> painted this or that, People want to kill people and there is >>>>> always >>>>> an excuse available. We will always not blame people for that >>>>> because >>>>> people have ceased to be people with their existential choice to >>>>> be ' >>>>> being-in-itself'. Prime symbols of our society have perhaps >>>>> cultivated bad tastes because of a deep bourgiouse-captilist- >>>>> fascist >>>>> leanings. We are indeed in a deep mess. For example, Sudhir Kakkar >>>>> talks about how unresolved sexuality has a deep relationship with >>>>> violence. Now who is the culprit. At least Artists are trying to >>>>> heal >>>>> themselves. let them, even if people are not healed... >>>>> >>>>> about what is good to society ? Stalin's USSR did this mistake and >>>>> killed lot of intellectuals poets and artists, Theortically what, >>>>> poets are artists were doing at time had little relevance to the >>>>> times >>>>> ' of bolshivik ' but in the end we can see how wrong was that >>>>> policy >>>>> of actually believing what is good for society and what is not. We >>>>> need to provide a space to everything for everybody. >>>>> >>>>> People like TV reality and other such heaps of trash....., how >>>>> much >>>>> we can carry is seriously with us, you know better, at least i cant >>>>> take the popular bullshit of saas Bahu and bootnath serials. >>>>> >>>>> About market and art via ' conspiracy of art' we already know >>>>> Hussain >>>>> sahib is not in a great spiritual health. But a fanatic has no >>>>> right >>>>> to dislodge something which is already dislodged by the Tusnami of >>>>> sheer profitalbity of americansim.. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> love >>>>> is >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 8:34 PM, Yousuf wrote: >>>>>> Dear Salim >>>>>> You are right, an artist should never have to explain. But Picasso >>>>> probably never had people killing each others angered by his >>>>> paintings. But >>>>> (as we have discussed earlier on this theme) if you are doing an >>>>> art for >>>>> public, would you not be concerned if the public appreciates it? No >>>>> one is >>>>> born appreciating high art - we acquire a tastes for everything. >>>>> The point >>>>> is, whose responsibity is it to inculcate the appreciation of art >>>>> in >>>>> society? If its a Madhubani painting done on the facade of my >>>>> village house >>>>> by my mother, its very much there in my genes. But if it is a horse >>>>> by >>>>> Hussain kept in a gallery to which I have no access, somebody has >>>>> to do a >>>>> bit of explaining on why such art is distanced from social reality >>>>> (which >>>>> actually is not, but the market has made it look so). >>>>>> >>>>>> Yousuf >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> --- On Wed, 9/3/08, inder salim wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> From: inder salim >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions >>>>>>> To: reader-list at sarai.net >>>>>>> Date: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 7:14 PM >>>>>>> Picasso said, if it is possible to explian, it is futile to >>>>>>> paint. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> even if i we gnore picasso, who is an old hat in modern art >>>>>>> now, let >>>>>>> alone hussain sahib who is immensely supported by >>>>>>> investors, and 'post >>>>>>> colonialism' as theoritical justificaioin to do >>>>>>> whatever he or we >>>>>>> sometimes are doing which can pass as derivate at the >>>>>>> best. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> what is education or what is not , what is offensive or >>>>>>> what is not, >>>>>>> is difficult to explain, if one chases the text, and its >>>>>>> meaning >>>>>>> profoundly... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> what we forget also is the fact that what we see are >>>>>>> phtographs of the >>>>>>> the original >>>>>>> >>>>>>> .and is photogaphy representing real, if so then we have >>>>>>> truly >>>>>>> disappeared from the face of this earth. and it does not >>>>>>> matter if >>>>>>> there is hussain or not, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> there is book by Jean Baudilard ' conspiracy of >>>>>>> art' >>>>>>> which speaks the contemporary art practices , and that >>>>>>> makes us feel >>>>>>> that the whole world is in fact a piece of modern art work >>>>>>> , and we >>>>>>> are not there, simple not part of it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> the question of relevance of hussain in our social >>>>>>> structures is open >>>>>>> to this sort of criticism, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> but not once it lands as amunition in the hands of >>>>>>> fanatics. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> love >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From pkray11 at gmail.com Fri Sep 12 01:24:18 2008 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 01:24:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Delhi University gets ABVP president after 8 years/reader-list Digest, Vol 62, Issue 35 Message-ID: <98f331e00809111254w4ffe9d25paa76634256c3d4c1@mail.gmail.com> Mr Kaul, Before you oppose reservations, I suggest you must demand for equal distribution of property, land, and opportunities, and above all, the equality of dignity and respect for each and every one. We always raise a slogan against the Youth for Equality- 'Baap ki daulat chhod ke bolo tum equality'. You have written that since Nupur Sharma is your friend, so you supported her in the elections. it shows that your personal relations matter more than the issue you are 'fighting' for. By supporting her you have betrayed the United Students, the organization you formed. In a report published in The Hindu on September 4, 2006, you have said- "We believe that a new direction must be given to the students movement. Traditional student unions are overly politicised and have become symptomatic of the maladies of our present political class. They are no longer about us, but about their political masters. Our manifesto is a reflection of what we want to see in our campuses and colleges - and in this great institution called Delhi University." Now, you support such an organization. what should I reply or say!! Regards, Prakash K Ray From tbd.lists at gmail.com Fri Sep 12 07:08:27 2008 From: tbd.lists at gmail.com (Tea BeeDi) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 07:08:27 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions In-Reply-To: <47e122a70809111059j8520ee4qa97a04c1adc3977b@mail.gmail.com> References: <47e122a70809030644g483a5b2en985bbcd466c44c9b@mail.gmail.com> <319517.61062.qm@web51407.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <47e122a70809031030l8c80ad2p2699cebbeb999893@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809040209x36039c0fjde7275560b7eb74a@mail.gmail.com> <4B78567A-0D07-4FC3-98FF-8A26707FF690@dannybutt.net> <47e122a70809050748m2404fb8dh9ce65637678f1579@mail.gmail.com> <309273B0-39DF-46BF-8DBF-A3164B27168A@dannybutt.net> <47e122a70809111059j8520ee4qa97a04c1adc3977b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4573cd0e0809111838p6af2650fg8c485ea92139189a@mail.gmail.com> > i have not read ' righting wrongs' ... > what we are ? > i love life, in spite of the terrible state of affairs around the > world. a world full of pain and mess, in spite of the fact that our > personal and private problems often push mars our forward thrust, but > we emerge, and for that reason alone we need to know the other, and > realize the self. i am reading "writing wrongs" here ?s/in spite/because From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Fri Sep 12 09:24:01 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 20:54:01 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri Hindus' march to PM residence on Sept 14 Message-ID: <6353c690809112054h5e4a8261gca373be7251c2e3f@mail.gmail.com> *Kashmiri Hindus' march to PM residence on Sept 14* Excelsior Correspondent *Jammu, Sept 10: *Kashmiri Hindus under the banner of Panun Kashmir will be marching to Prime Minister's residence to impress upon the nation that time has come to grant Homeland to Kashmiri Hindus .This is the proper homage to all those martyr,s who laid down their lives defending the National sovereignty and integrity in Jammu and Kashmir. "We are in the midst of the preperations for the proposed march which will be the main programme in the country in observing KASHMIRI PANDIT BALIDAN DIVAS'' the Kashmiri Hindus said adding Kashmiris is from different areas of National capital Region of Delhi will assemble at Jantar Mantar and then march to PM Residence. "14 th September (Kashmiri pandit balidan divas ) reminds us of our forced exile from the Kashmir valley and symbolises our struggle for back home movement. The recent upsurge in Kashmir valley has once again reaffirmed the resolve of the community to have their own union terrority carved out in Kashmir valley.'' they said. "We are not alone in this struggle .The whole nation is behind us which was amply demonstrated by the people of Jammu in recent Shri Amarnath land row agitation.Panun Kashmir struggle is the struggle for strengthening the nationalist forces and institutions in Kashmir valley,'' they added. The march will be led by Dr. Ajay Chrungoo, Chairman and Kuldeep Raina -General Secretary Panun Kashmir. -- visit at www.panunkashmir.in and www.panunkashmir.org From iram at sarai.net Fri Sep 12 09:37:13 2008 From: iram at sarai.net (Iram Ghufran) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 09:37:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Digital Fringe 2008 - opportunity for international screenings of new media Message-ID: <48C9EAF1.50203@sarai.net> Fwd: ============================= Subject: Digital Fringe 2008 - opportunity for international screenings of new media From: e.circlesquare at gmail.com Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 09:29:54 +1000 To: reader-list at sarai.net ============================= Hi all, Please submit your new media works for an international multi-screen festival of audio visual work. Submissions accepted all year around, but deadline for 2008 screening is Friday 19th September 2008. ============================= Digital Fringe 08 Call for submissions *Digital Fringe* is now accepting entries (video, stills or audio). Ferret around your hard drives, dig out those gems and have your work seen on hundreds of public screens. Uploaded content will play on an extensive network of screens around the world: from retail television display walls to huge urban screens, hospitality venues, galleries, libraries and many other public nooks and crannys. Visit www.digitalfringe.com.au to submit your works, and for more festival info. Artist retain full copyright of their works and have the option of utilising the Creative Commons licensing scheme. Digital Fringe is also chasing *more screening venues* - so if you know of any idle screens in need of interesting art content in your area (in bars, shops, ....wherever) put them in touch with us or let us know at: people [at] digitalfringe [dot] com [dot] au Digital Fringe is produced by *Horse Bazaar* as part of the Melbourne Fringe Festival (September 24 - October 12) Digital Fringe 08 Screen call out The Digital Fringe festival is seeking all sorts of Screens! Do you have a screen, projector, TV or old computer monitor that you would like to play free digital art on? Digital Fringe is seeking all sorts of public screening venues to participate in 2008 - galleries, shopping centres, bars, cafes, pubs, retail venues, libraries and large public screens are all taking part. Help us to bring cutting edge digital artworks by local and international artists to the Victorian general public. No screen is too large or small - it may be in a back corner of a library on a computer monitor, part of a shop's window display, a wall of TV's in JB Hifi, a projector in a foyer, or a huge public screen. We simply want to get this artistic content into as many nooks and crannies of public space as possible. As part of The Age 2008 Melbourne Fringe Festival, Digital Fringe will be broadcasting a curated playlist of digital art on public screens across Victoria. This playlist - the General Stream - consists of digital artwork that is submitted from around the world in response to a massive public callout. It is an eclectic mix of quality screen based digital art including animations, video, short film and stills. All artworks are G rated and do not required audio. Screen Venues that sign up to broadcast Digital Fringe entries can play the content whenever they like during the festival (24 September - 12 October). Screening can be continuous, event focused, fitted in around your normal programming, or be used if your screen has downtime where nothing is playing. All locations taking part in broadcasting the Digital Fringe General Stream will be promoted on the Digital Fringe website, which will feature a list of screening venues with links to partner websites and provision for logo placement, as well as be featured on a Google Map of Digital Fringe Screen locations. Last year we had over 40,000 visits to the Digital Fringe website, and the main Fringe website had 76,000 visits during the 17 days of the festival. We hope to double that this year! Screens locations may also feature in press releases. Any screen playing Digital Fringe artworks during the festival will be helping to support artists and the promotion of digital art in local communities across Victoria. Not to mention providing free entertainment to punters, customers, and your wider community. To register your interest, or for more information on how you can get involved contact people at digitalfringe.com.au Check out www.digitalfringe.com.au for more festival information & for example art works From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Fri Sep 12 09:44:02 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 21:14:02 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] Delhi University gets ABVP president after 8 years/reader-list Digest, Vol 62, Issue 35 In-Reply-To: <98f331e00809111254w4ffe9d25paa76634256c3d4c1@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00809111254w4ffe9d25paa76634256c3d4c1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690809112114y44394608h13082b6c0110dd4b@mail.gmail.com> Dear Prakash bhai, I was honest in my previous mail and will remain so; and it would have been a positive change if you would have respected my honesty. I oppose caste based reservations and will remain firm with my stand. Also, I'm no one from 'Youth For Equality' to answer your queries. So, Kindly visit any of YFE Chapters and ask them there itself. Just to enligten you a bit, it wasn't just general category students but hundreds of SC ST and OBC who used to take part in protests with us. I personally know so many of them from IIT, NSIT, DU, IP etc. who used to lead our protests. You sure are unaware to this fact, 'why so?' that only you may be able to answer. "Who do you think was an able candidate for the position of President in the recently concluded elections of DUSU ?" - If you answer this, it would simplyfy your confusion. I didn't support Nupur Sharma because she was from ABVP, but because she had the capacity to lead and was able enough to become the DUSU President. Others in the fray, were more so a confused lot. I met them, SFI-AISA etc were struggling to make space in the elections. NSUI, even though had free flow of money from Congress, couldn't choose a better candidate then Sonia Sapra. I met almost all candidates and finally concluded on Nupur being the only positive choice. You may like to differ forgetting the individuals and considering only the party line, but unfortunately or fortunately, for me, individuals and parties are both equally important. I didn't betray United Students, as you may have liked, but have supported a change in the making. I still stand by that 'Hindu' statement. Some Individuals who don't waste time puting across allegations on others, do work for the students silently in the DU Campus. P.S. Even in the DU Elections; officially it isn't a party or a group contesting, it is actually the individuals. The parties have no authority or right given by the DU. Hope your sonfusion has been solved. Its better you shift your focus towards something constructive. Love Aditya Raj Kaul On 9/11/08, prakash ray wrote: > > Mr Kaul, > > Before you oppose reservations, I suggest you must demand for equal > distribution of property, land, and opportunities, and above all, the > equality of dignity and respect for each and every one. We always raise a > slogan against the Youth for Equality- 'Baap ki daulat chhod ke bolo tum > equality'. You have written that since Nupur Sharma is your friend, so you > supported her in the elections. it shows that your personal relations > matter > more than the issue you are 'fighting' for. By supporting her you have > betrayed the United Students, the organization you formed. In a report > published in The Hindu on September 4, 2006, you have said- "We believe > that > a new direction must be given to the students movement. Traditional student > unions are overly politicised and have become symptomatic of the maladies > of > our present political class. They are no longer about us, but about their > political masters. Our manifesto is a reflection of what we want to see in > our campuses and colleges - and in this great institution called Delhi > University." Now, you support such an organization. > > what should I reply or say!! > > Regards, > > Prakash K Ray > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rahulpandita at yahoo.com Fri Sep 12 13:11:58 2008 From: rahulpandita at yahoo.com (Rahul Pandita) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 00:41:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri journalists attacked In-Reply-To: <763206.48315.qm@web31812.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <441296.29176.qm@web30507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The situation is really bad in Kashmir. And not even a fraction of what is happening there gets reported by the national media. I was there on September 6, in downtown Nawhatta, when a young taxi driver, Javed Iqbal Bhat, was shot at by the police. He died on the spot. Javed had not even been a part of the protestors. He had just stepped out to buy toffees for his two-year-old nephew. The police falsely claimed that the protestors had been using petrol bombs. I was there: nothing beyond stones was used. Both TOI and HT reported the next day that "a protestor was killed in clashes." This is absurd. If MK Narayanan thinks that he can bring down protests by the use of brutal force, he is mistaken. Making an executive engineer frog jump (in Jawahar Nagar) in front of his two sons is not helping India. It will further alienate the ordinary Kashmiri. Rahul Pandita www.sanitysucks.blogspot.com Mobile: 9818088664 --- On Wed, 10/9/08, Khurram Parvez wrote: > From: Khurram Parvez > Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri journalists attacked > To: "SARAI" > Date: Wednesday, 10 September, 2008, 7:05 PM > Press Release >   > In the aftermath of the Amarnath land controversy, members > of press in Kashmir have been coming under serious attack by > the personnel of CRPF and in some measure by the crowds. We > have reasons to believe that the attacks happen by > deliberate design of the State agencies. When the governor N > N Vohra was informed about these attacks, he pleaded > ignorance and, in presence of some members of press and the > secretary information, instructed the Director General of > Police not to let such attacks to continue. >   > However, to present just one instance, the attacks > continued the next day, confirming our suspicion that the > attacks are carried out by design. Journalists have faced > irrational demands from CRPF personnel manning the streets > like "you are not carrying a curfew pass for your > camera." Such instances could tell volumes. >   > For reference, a list of journalists attacked by security > forces personnel is attached. It is demanded that the > process of intimidation of journalists is stopped to enable > press to carry out its professional duties. >   > Annexure >   > July 05 - Raashid Wani of Sahara Samay was severely beaten > by CRPF at near Jinab Sahib Shrine in Soura. The cameraman > spent three days in the hospital.  >   > August, 12 - Bashir Ahmad lone -CNN-IBN cameraman's car > was fired at near Lasjan. Raashid Wani was also beaten up in > the incident. PRO CRPF later exclaimed that he wonders why > the guy is beaten up every time. >   > August, 13 - Javaid Ahmad Mir- Killed by a bullet from > security forces near Bagh-e-Mehtab. He worked as a cameraman > with a local cable TV channel. >   > August 19 - Photojournalist, Amman Farooq, of Greater > Kashmir was beaten up and his arm broken by CRPF at Bypass > near Qamarwari. His arm was broken. >   > August, 22 - Muzamil Rashid of IBN 7 was shooting at Habba > Kadal when CRPF opened fire on protestors and then tried to > snatch his camera. He ran away but was severely thrashed. > Sheikh Umar of News 24 was also injured in the same > incident. >   > August 24 - Bilal Bhat, Sahara Samay correspondent along > with his team members stopped by CRPF at Rambagh. Even > though he had a curfew pass, he was thrashed. Sustained a > fracture in his rib. Team members- Jan Mohammad, Rashid Mir, > Muzzaffar. >   > August, 24 - S. Fayaz of UNI was stopped near SMHS > hospital. ``When I showed my curfew pass, the CRPF men said > it is not valid anymore,'' he said. ``I turned my > bike to go back but they started hitting him''. >   > August 24 - AFP photographer Touseef Mustafa was sent back > from Lal Chowk even though he had a curfew pass. The CRPF > asked him for Curfew pass of his camera and lens. >   > August, 24 - Jehangir Aziz of ETV and Khalid Hussain of > IBN7 were beaten by CRPF near Rambagh. >   > August, 24 - Manoj Koul of ETV was also thrashed near Zero > Bridge. He had called DIG operations, CRPF M P Nathanael, > who told him that the previous curfew passes would be valid. > But as he reached near old zero bridge, CRPF men thrashed > him. >   > August 24 - Amin War of Tribune, Firdous Ahmad of News-X > and Amin Bhat of NDTV were stopped near Bakshi stadium by > the CRPF. The CRPF asked them to stuff their curfew passes > back in their pockets and beat them up. ``The CRPF men told > us that today, we will do whatever we want. No one can stop > us,'' Amin War told The Indian Express. >   > August 25 - CRPF men patrolling the Tehsil Road in > Baramulla smashed the front and back lights of the car of > Mir Ehsan, correspondent Indian Express. "They had > already smashed my car when they asked for the curfew pass. > I had to run away to save myself."   >   > August 24 – Umar Ganaie, a photojournalist of daily > Kashmir Monitor, was thrashed by a Superintendent of Kashmir > Police in SMHS hospital. The photojournalist tried to show > his curfew pass but the SP tore it apart. He was also beaten > up by CRPF outside when a police officer asked them to beat > him. >   > August, 24 - The local news papers were not allowed to > distribute their copies. Greater Kashmir staff came under > assault when Zahoor Ahmad, Mohd. Iqbal, Ghulam Mohammad were > stopped early morning at Rambagh and beaten up by CRPF men > while they were carrying copies for distribution. > Later in the afternoon, CRPF men thrashed three other > employees of Greater Kashmir, Bashir Ahmad Dar, Mohammad > Rafiq Margay and Farooq Ahmad Mir were going to their > editor's place with curfew passes. > In the evening, Majid Hyderi of Greater Kashmir was > intimidated at Hyderpora after CRPF men checked his I-Card > and curfew pass. "They abused me and did not allow me > go to office," Majid said. >   > Rising Kashmir staff also came under assault at several > places on the same day. Farooq Ahmad of distribution section > of Rising Kashmir and the newspaper's system > administrator, Rahil, were beaten at Batamaloo while the two > were carrying newspapers for distribution. >   > August 25 - Asif Qureshi of Star News was stopped at > Hyderpora by CRPF and beaten up. His car was also smashed > while he was coming back from Airport. >   > August 28 - The Correspondent of Hindu in Kashmir, Shujaat > Bukhari's home at Rawalpora, Srinagar was raided by > security forces as they were looking for separatist leaders. > >   > August 29 - Hakeem Irfan, Rising Kashmir correspondent, was > beaten at Rainawari. "Press wale ho, isi liye maar padi > (You were beaten only because you are a journalist," > Irfan was told. >   > August 29 - The news editor of Daily Etalaat, Ishfaq > Tantray was stopped near Radio Kashmir in Srinagar and > beaten up. He was beaten up. "aap log hungama karte ho > (you people are responsible for the problems)". >   > September 8: Police cops confiscated all the newspaper > supply - Greater Khasmir, Etalaat, Raising Kahsmir, Kashmir > Uzam etc - meant for north Kashmir at Narbal, some > 15-kilometers from Srinagar. The cops also destroyed thje > camera of Etalaat's photographer Sajad Raja and also > threatened him. On the same day, around eight > photojournalists were thrashed by J-K police and Central > Reserve Police Force (CRPF) in downtown city while covering > a protest against the killing of a youth.  >   > Others thrashed by CRPF >   > Syed Muzzaffar - Srinagar Times. >   > Mukhtar Ahmad - Srinagar Mail. >   > The mob attacks: >   > On August 13, the Srinagar Bureau Chief of Aaj Tak, Ashraf > Wani was injured and his camera broken this morning when > angry crowd attacked him inside the SMHS hospital, Srinagar. > >   > An NDTV cameraman, Amir Bhat was also injured when people > attacked his vehicle at SKIMS on August 13. >   > The correspondent of Daily News Analysis (DNA) > Ishfaq-ul-Hassan was thrashed by people near Karan Nagar. He > had earlier been stopped by police and was asked to give > lift to one of their men. When people saw him carrying a > policeman with him, they stopped him and started beating > him. >   > Issued jointly by Srinagar based journalists > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Fri Sep 12 13:34:23 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 13:04:23 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] SC refuses to take action against M F Husain In-Reply-To: <47e122a70809111003h4cc23a0fmb71f3aad7e99ab7f@mail.gmail.com> References: <725407.94697.qm@web51410.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <"e9c6799a0809092252 mf9f85eex7b8fd7058c4cb0a7"@mail.gmail.com> <"47e122a70809100929y50f4b282y5735b d6d199e5729"@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70809111003h4cc23a0fmb71f3aad7e99ab7f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Inder, vandalism, violence to show dissent is not my cup of tea. As to judgement about Hussains' paintings, I wish the judges were more introspewctive of the notings that they have made, as I feel, no right of an individual is absolute if he does not understand his duties to the society that he/she lives in. Hussain has right to paint his imagination, but his duty is not to exploit the hurt feelings of others in society, just as Da Vinci Code film is appreciated as a movie, but none has right to disturb the movie being shown, similarly, danish cartoonist has his right to have cartoons of his choice, but friday prayers are for prayers not for running riot in the nation destruction of public property and hurt and injuries to innocent on the roads as protest to the cartoon in some corner of the world. Hope my stand is clear. ? Lots of love and regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: inder salim Date: Thursday, September 11, 2008 10:33 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] SC refuses to take action against M F Husain To: reader-list at sarai.net > dear radhikarajan > > i want you to see the other side of moon as well. > after writing a full para on corrupt judges, i expect you to > appreicate the SC judgement on Hussain, > and condemn the political goons who vandalise the exhibition in > galleries. > is > > On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 5:47 PM, wrote: > > Inder, > > > > let us not forget that the judges are also from the same > society and the system that we live in, till now we are not keen > to confront the judiciary and media as in any democracy these are > the only two institutions which are relatively "clean" but alas, > that euphoria is also waning in society as we get informed by the > media that sitting and retired judges have siphoned off in crores > from the pf accounts of judiciary. Sons of a retired SC chief > justice avail 600 crores sitting in the official residence of the > judge. A Supreme court judge has fudged his birth certificate to > get extra time on the bench, a sitting judge of the high court has > taken 36 lakhs as his personal funds as a receiver, "criminal" > lawyers have inflienced for big money the outcome of many > judgements, judges of high court get courier service delivering 15 > lakhs and some buy lands in states where they are not entitled to > buy. But blacksheep in media who become spin doctors to a > political party, judges who ke > > ep quiet when crores are defreezed in London without the > knowledge of the court, the act being carried out by the law > minister and the solicitor general does not augur well for the > confidence that society implies on both the media and judiciary. > CBI, premier investigation agency purring like cat for the rich > and powerful has lost credibilty along with some blacksheep in > judiciary and media personnel who are selective even in "journalism. > > > > Lots of love and regards. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: inder salim > > Date: Thursday, September 11, 2008 12:56 pm > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] SC refuses to take action against M F > Husain> To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > >> Dear Alaxendra > >> > >> > >> Thanks for reporting the sad news of Manjit Singh. The artist > >> needs a > >> full support from all of us. Here, by 'us' I means the saner > part of > >> the society, because those who vandalize shows in galleries on this > >> pretext or that are finally possessing a sick mind. And those who > >> support, or are silent about such actions are equally to be blamed. > >> > >> > >> Now I visualize Bharat Mata ( untitled by artist ) Painting by MF > >> Hussain, with a seal and stamp of Supreme Court. It is indeed an > >> occasion to celebrate the product which has now ISI ( Indian > >> standards institution ) mark on it. It is like a mosquito- > repellent>> which is injurious to our lungs but it kills those > insects who spread > >> deadly disease like dengue and malaria. > >> > >> > >> So, in short we need to support a Hussain, a Taslima, a Manjit > Singh,>> a Chander Mohan in India. That is the need of hour. But > how to keep > >> the population of these right winged insects in check. Is our > >> ('stagnant') way of living finally responsible for the growth > of this > >> fundamentalism? Or are we really stuck in some sort of rut? > >> > >> > >> While voting, we, those who celebrate on SC judgment on > Hussain, would > >> vote either a congress or a Left. But isn't it true that not a > >> single Congresswalla has ever come out boldly in support of > >> Hussain . > >> And we know how the The Left went terribly wrong with Taslima > >> Nasreen's issue. Narender Modi kind of politicians are doing their > >> business on expected lines. Now, who are these 'we' who love to > call>> themselves 'saner' part of the society and want to be > protected by > >> Law? Are we really unwanted ? > >> > >> > >> This time it is clear that the Judiciary is divided on the > issue of > >> Hussain. People in general will laugh, and the Hon arable > Judges will > >> issue orders to arrest me, if I publicly demand the immediate > >> resignation of those High Court Judges who found 'Hussain' > dangerous>> for our society. Because if they don't have an > understanding of > >> Art ( > >> even if it is not art ) why do we expect some justice from > them in > >> some other cases even. Or, am I unnecessarily too worried > about the > >> rot in our Administration. We know how corrupt can be a Judge. > And > >> do we finally need a Judge to Judge a painting or a work of art ? > >> > >> > >> The attack on Manjit Singh explains one thing very clearly that > there>> are enough people in India who don't respect the Law of > the Land. It > >> is a paradox . > >> > >> On the list, regarding discussion on Kashmir, those who vehemently > >> oppose the just cause of Kashmiri freedom struggle, often talk > about>> the disrespect to the Law of Land by Kashmiri Muslims. > >> > >> It is interesting to note that those who strongly oppose ' Law > of the > >> Land' here criticize the other... > >> > >> So in this case, SC judgement on Hussain, do they have a comment > >> on that ? > >> > >> > >> > >> With love > >> > >> Inder salim > >> > >> > >> > >> p.s. enjoyed to see your JUGAADOO.COM > >> > >> > >> > >> On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 11:22 AM, Alexander Keefe > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > Meanwhile, the "miscreants" are at it again, this time with a > >> rather less > >> > exalted target. The public discourse on contemporary art in > >> this country > >> > seems to oscillate between two equally mythological black-box > >> entities: "the > >> > market" and "sentiment". I'm waiting for the article that > >> brings them > >> > together: "The Economics of Having Your Art Show Trashed by > >> Hooligans".> Until then: > >> > > >> > http://www.thehindu.com/2008/09/10/stories/2008091061950300.htm > >> > > >> > *Paintings exhibition vandalised * > >> > > >> > NEW DELHI: A group of hooligans vandalised a paintings > >> exhibition titled > >> > "Kamayani" by Manjit Singh at India Habitat Centre here on > Tuesday.>> > > >> > Over half-a-dozen persons donning saffron scarves stormed > into the > >> > exhibition hall and smashed the paintings and raised slogans. > >> They also > >> > manhandled Manjit Singh who had to be taken to the All-India > >> Institute of > >> > Medical Sciences. The miscreants fled before the private > >> security guards at > >> > India Habitat Centre could reach the spot. > >> > > >> > A senior police officer said: "It is difficult to say which > >> organisation was > >> > behind the attack." > >> > > >> > According to Manjit Singh's son Jasvinder, a couple of visitors > >> had made > >> > some adverse comments on the paintings in the visitors' book on > >> Monday,> saying the paintings were against Hindu culture. > >> > > >> > The four-day exhibition was to end on Tuesday. > >> > > >> > > >> > On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 10:54 PM, Yousuf > wrote:>> > > >> > > SC refuses to take action against M F Husain > >> > > > >> > > NEW DELHI: The Supreme Court refused to initiate criminal > >> proceedings> > against noted painter M F Husain for allegedly > >> hurting public sentiments > >> > > through some of his paintings that were dubbed as obscene. > >> > > > >> > > "There are many such pictures, paintings and sculptures and > >> some of them > >> > > are in temples also," a bench headed by Chief Justice K G > >> Balakrishnan said, > >> > > dismissing one such petition. > >> > > > >> > > The bench, also comprising Justices P Sathasivam and J M > >> Panchal, was not > >> > > impressed with the argument that Hussain was taking advantage > >> of his age and > >> > > reputation to get away with the law by painting obscene > pictures.>> > > > >> > > One such creation of the painter, titled Bharat Mata, was > >> brought before > >> > > the apex court for its scrutiny. > >> > > > >> > > Maharashtra-based Dwaipayan Venkateshacharya Varkhedkar had > >> challenged a > >> > > Delhi High Court verdict quashing the criminal proceedings > >> initiated against > >> > > the eminent painter in Maharashtra, Madhya Pradesh and Gujarat. > >> > > > >> > > Husain's paintings,depicting Bharat Mata and Hindu gods and > >> goddesses, had > >> > > created a furore. Husain had started receiving threats from > >> right-wing > >> > > groups like the VHP and the Bajrang Dal. Husain is living > in a > >> self-imposed > >> > > exile in Dubai now. > >> > > > >> > > The proceedings against the painter were initiated on the > >> basis of > >> > > complaints filed in Panderpur (Maharastra), Rajkot (Gujarat) > >> and Indore > >> > > (Madhya Pradesh) claiming that his paintings were obscene and > >> that they hurt > >> > > public sentiments. > >> > > > >> > > The criminal complaints filed in various places were shifted > >> to the Patiala > >> > > House district courts in the Capital after the artist had > >> approached the > >> > > apex court. > >> > > > >> > > After the transfer of cases, Husain, 90, had filed a petition > >> in the Delhi > >> > > High Court for quashing the complaints which was allowed on > >> May 8 this year. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/SC_refuses_to_take_action_against_M_F_Husain/articleshow/3459623.cms> > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > _________________________________________ > >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > request at sarai.net with > >> > > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > >> list> > List archive: list/>>> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > jugaadoo.blogspot.com > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > >> with subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > >> list > >> List archive: > > > > > > > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From rohitism at gmail.com Fri Sep 12 13:56:11 2008 From: rohitism at gmail.com (Rohit Shetti) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 13:56:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] SC refuses to take action against M F Husain In-Reply-To: References: <725407.94697.qm@web51410.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <47e122a70809111003h4cc23a0fmb71f3aad7e99ab7f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Radhika, I'm not sure if I've clearly understood your mail, especially the rights and duties part. While I agree that any action by anybody should take into account people's sentiments to the extent possible, but its all subjective after a point. Yet, there is no justification for vandalism. Who is to tell vandals that Hussain or the Danish cartoonist or the maker of Da Vinci code, or the many Chanders and Manjits for that matter, that they are hurting the artists' sentiments? Rohit On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 1:34 PM, wrote: > Inder, > vandalism, violence to show dissent is not my cup of tea. As to judgement > about Hussains' paintings, I wish the judges were more introspewctive of the > notings that they have made, as I feel, no right of an individual is > absolute if he does not understand his duties to the society that he/she > lives in. Hussain has right to paint his imagination, but his duty is not to > exploit the hurt feelings of others in society, just as Da Vinci Code film > is appreciated as a movie, but none has right to disturb the movie being > shown, similarly, danish cartoonist has his right to have cartoons of his > choice, but friday prayers are for prayers not for running riot in the > nation destruction of public property and hurt and injuries to innocent on > the roads as protest to the cartoon in some corner of the world. Hope my > stand is clear. ? > > Lots of love and regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: inder salim > Date: Thursday, September 11, 2008 10:33 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] SC refuses to take action against M F Husain > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > dear radhikarajan > > > > i want you to see the other side of moon as well. > > after writing a full para on corrupt judges, i expect you to > > appreicate the SC judgement on Hussain, > > and condemn the political goons who vandalise the exhibition in > > galleries. > > is > > > > On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 5:47 PM, wrote: > > > Inder, > > > > > > let us not forget that the judges are also from the same > > society and the system that we live in, till now we are not keen > > to confront the judiciary and media as in any democracy these are > > the only two institutions which are relatively "clean" but alas, > > that euphoria is also waning in society as we get informed by the > > media that sitting and retired judges have siphoned off in crores > > from the pf accounts of judiciary. Sons of a retired SC chief > > justice avail 600 crores sitting in the official residence of the > > judge. A Supreme court judge has fudged his birth certificate to > > get extra time on the bench, a sitting judge of the high court has > > taken 36 lakhs as his personal funds as a receiver, "criminal" > > lawyers have inflienced for big money the outcome of many > > judgements, judges of high court get courier service delivering 15 > > lakhs and some buy lands in states where they are not entitled to > > buy. But blacksheep in media who become spin doctors to a > > political party, judges who ke > > > ep quiet when crores are defreezed in London without the > > knowledge of the court, the act being carried out by the law > > minister and the solicitor general does not augur well for the > > confidence that society implies on both the media and judiciary. > > CBI, premier investigation agency purring like cat for the rich > > and powerful has lost credibilty along with some blacksheep in > > judiciary and media personnel who are selective even in "journalism. > > > > > > Lots of love and regards. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: inder salim > > > Date: Thursday, September 11, 2008 12:56 pm > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] SC refuses to take action against M F > > Husain> To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > >> Dear Alaxendra > > >> > > >> > > >> Thanks for reporting the sad news of Manjit Singh. The artist > > >> needs a > > >> full support from all of us. Here, by 'us' I means the saner > > part of > > >> the society, because those who vandalize shows in galleries on this > > >> pretext or that are finally possessing a sick mind. And those who > > >> support, or are silent about such actions are equally to be blamed. > > >> > > >> > > >> Now I visualize Bharat Mata ( untitled by artist ) Painting by MF > > >> Hussain, with a seal and stamp of Supreme Court. It is indeed an > > >> occasion to celebrate the product which has now ISI ( Indian > > >> standards institution ) mark on it. It is like a mosquito- > > repellent>> which is injurious to our lungs but it kills those > > insects who spread > > >> deadly disease like dengue and malaria. > > >> > > >> > > >> So, in short we need to support a Hussain, a Taslima, a Manjit > > Singh,>> a Chander Mohan in India. That is the need of hour. But > > how to keep > > >> the population of these right winged insects in check. Is our > > >> ('stagnant') way of living finally responsible for the growth > > of this > > >> fundamentalism? Or are we really stuck in some sort of rut? > > >> > > >> > > >> While voting, we, those who celebrate on SC judgment on > > Hussain, would > > >> vote either a congress or a Left. But isn't it true that not a > > >> single Congresswalla has ever come out boldly in support of > > >> Hussain . > > >> And we know how the The Left went terribly wrong with Taslima > > >> Nasreen's issue. Narender Modi kind of politicians are doing their > > >> business on expected lines. Now, who are these 'we' who love to > > call>> themselves 'saner' part of the society and want to be > > protected by > > >> Law? Are we really unwanted ? > > >> > > >> > > >> This time it is clear that the Judiciary is divided on the > > issue of > > >> Hussain. People in general will laugh, and the Hon arable > > Judges will > > >> issue orders to arrest me, if I publicly demand the immediate > > >> resignation of those High Court Judges who found 'Hussain' > > dangerous>> for our society. Because if they don't have an > > understanding of > > >> Art ( > > >> even if it is not art ) why do we expect some justice from > > them in > > >> some other cases even. Or, am I unnecessarily too worried > > about the > > >> rot in our Administration. We know how corrupt can be a Judge. > > And > > >> do we finally need a Judge to Judge a painting or a work of art ? > > >> > > >> > > >> The attack on Manjit Singh explains one thing very clearly that > > there>> are enough people in India who don't respect the Law of > > the Land. It > > >> is a paradox . > > >> > > >> On the list, regarding discussion on Kashmir, those who vehemently > > >> oppose the just cause of Kashmiri freedom struggle, often talk > > about>> the disrespect to the Law of Land by Kashmiri Muslims. > > >> > > >> It is interesting to note that those who strongly oppose ' Law > > of the > > >> Land' here criticize the other... > > >> > > >> So in this case, SC judgement on Hussain, do they have a comment > > >> on that ? > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> With love > > >> > > >> Inder salim > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> p.s. enjoyed to see your JUGAADOO.COM > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 11:22 AM, Alexander Keefe > > >> wrote: > > >> > > > >> > Meanwhile, the "miscreants" are at it again, this time with a > > >> rather less > > >> > exalted target. The public discourse on contemporary art in > > >> this country > > >> > seems to oscillate between two equally mythological black-box > > >> entities: "the > > >> > market" and "sentiment". I'm waiting for the article that > > >> brings them > > >> > together: "The Economics of Having Your Art Show Trashed by > > >> Hooligans".> Until then: > > >> > > > >> > http://www.thehindu.com/2008/09/10/stories/2008091061950300.htm > > >> > > > >> > *Paintings exhibition vandalised * > > >> > > > >> > NEW DELHI: A group of hooligans vandalised a paintings > > >> exhibition titled > > >> > "Kamayani" by Manjit Singh at India Habitat Centre here on > > Tuesday.>> > > > >> > Over half-a-dozen persons donning saffron scarves stormed > > into the > > >> > exhibition hall and smashed the paintings and raised slogans. > > >> They also > > >> > manhandled Manjit Singh who had to be taken to the All-India > > >> Institute of > > >> > Medical Sciences. The miscreants fled before the private > > >> security guards at > > >> > India Habitat Centre could reach the spot. > > >> > > > >> > A senior police officer said: "It is difficult to say which > > >> organisation was > > >> > behind the attack." > > >> > > > >> > According to Manjit Singh's son Jasvinder, a couple of visitors > > >> had made > > >> > some adverse comments on the paintings in the visitors' book on > > >> Monday,> saying the paintings were against Hindu culture. > > >> > > > >> > The four-day exhibition was to end on Tuesday. > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 10:54 PM, Yousuf > > wrote:>> > > > >> > > SC refuses to take action against M F Husain > > >> > > > > >> > > NEW DELHI: The Supreme Court refused to initiate criminal > > >> proceedings> > against noted painter M F Husain for allegedly > > >> hurting public sentiments > > >> > > through some of his paintings that were dubbed as obscene. > > >> > > > > >> > > "There are many such pictures, paintings and sculptures and > > >> some of them > > >> > > are in temples also," a bench headed by Chief Justice K G > > >> Balakrishnan said, > > >> > > dismissing one such petition. > > >> > > > > >> > > The bench, also comprising Justices P Sathasivam and J M > > >> Panchal, was not > > >> > > impressed with the argument that Hussain was taking advantage > > >> of his age and > > >> > > reputation to get away with the law by painting obscene > > pictures.>> > > > > >> > > One such creation of the painter, titled Bharat Mata, was > > >> brought before > > >> > > the apex court for its scrutiny. > > >> > > > > >> > > Maharashtra-based Dwaipayan Venkateshacharya Varkhedkar had > > >> challenged a > > >> > > Delhi High Court verdict quashing the criminal proceedings > > >> initiated against > > >> > > the eminent painter in Maharashtra, Madhya Pradesh and Gujarat. > > >> > > > > >> > > Husain's paintings,depicting Bharat Mata and Hindu gods and > > >> goddesses, had > > >> > > created a furore. Husain had started receiving threats from > > >> right-wing > > >> > > groups like the VHP and the Bajrang Dal. Husain is living > > in a > > >> self-imposed > > >> > > exile in Dubai now. > > >> > > > > >> > > The proceedings against the painter were initiated on the > > >> basis of > > >> > > complaints filed in Panderpur (Maharastra), Rajkot (Gujarat) > > >> and Indore > > >> > > (Madhya Pradesh) claiming that his paintings were obscene and > > >> that they hurt > > >> > > public sentiments. > > >> > > > > >> > > The criminal complaints filed in various places were shifted > > >> to the Patiala > > >> > > House district courts in the Capital after the artist had > > >> approached the > > >> > > apex court. > > >> > > > > >> > > After the transfer of cases, Husain, 90, had filed a petition > > >> in the Delhi > > >> > > High Court for quashing the complaints which was allowed on > > >> May 8 this year. > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/SC_refuses_to_take_action_against_M_F_Husain/articleshow/3459623.cms> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > _________________________________________ > > >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> > > Critiques & Collaborations > > >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > > request at sarai.net with > > >> > > subscribe in the subject header. > > >> > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > >> list> > List archive: > list/>>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > -- > > >> > jugaadoo.blogspot.com > > >> > _________________________________________ > > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > >> with subscribe in the subject header. > > >> > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> > List archive: > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> > > >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > >> _________________________________________ > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > >> list > > >> List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From rashneek at gmail.com Fri Sep 12 15:29:03 2008 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 15:29:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri journalists attacked In-Reply-To: <441296.29176.qm@web30507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <763206.48315.qm@web31812.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <441296.29176.qm@web30507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <13df7c120809120259t2b8c73e2qa9c2fc416d5ea239@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rahul, you are right.the situation in kashmir is really bad.The national media does not report what is happening there.It never did and when it did it either underplayed facts or made stereotypes stronger.It was the media that made us believe that things are OK in the valley,some 4 months back.They went gaga over Santosh Trophy ,Shame Gurukul and Golf tournaments..They misread calm for peace.You are yourself a journalist and therefore would acknowledge how little do most of the journalists covering Kashmir know or understand about it.Anyone who spends a week in A shikara comes back as a Kashmir Expert.To expect good reportage from them is asking for the sunshine in Siberia.I have personally met a lot of journalists,who write on Kashmir, without even having a basic understanding of Kashmir.It is them who never report the truth and beat drums of non existenet or hyped Kashmiriyat when none exists.Some of them sit in the most influential positions in media houses.So Media has always played a rather dubious role in reporting from or about Kashmir or Kashmiiris.It is media that did not make any noise when Bitta Karate was released.So they are and have been as much a culprit as the government or separtists have been in this mess. On the present crisis-Who can disagree that government has mishandled the situation first by giving too much of rope and now putting too many curbs.Curfew should have been imposed on day one when people came out against the land trasfer order.We would have saved many innocent lives. Well I also request you to be more careful in your choice of words...an ordinary Kashmiri should read ordinary Kashmiri Muslims.As far as I know most Pandits sans people like me are still Indians.We also need to go back to the days and places where you and me lived without a policeman in even 10 kms radius.Violence begets violence.I am not condoning what you claim that the police is doing but genesis of the problem lies in the armed insurgency which brought all this upon us the Kashmiris(not Kashmiri Muslims Alone). If MK Narayaan thinks what he is thinking now, he is actually aping people like Salaudhin,Yasin Malik and others who though they would beat India with guns.Brutal force is no answer.It has taken separtists 18 years to understand that maybe Govt will also understand in sometime. Regards Rashneek Kher On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 1:11 PM, Rahul Pandita wrote: > The situation is really bad in Kashmir. And not even a fraction of what is > happening there gets reported by the national media. I was there on > September 6, in downtown Nawhatta, when a young taxi driver, Javed Iqbal > Bhat, was shot at by the police. He died on the spot. Javed had not even > been a part of the protestors. He had just stepped out to buy toffees for > his two-year-old nephew. The police falsely claimed that the protestors had > been using petrol bombs. I was there: nothing beyond stones was used. > > Both TOI and HT reported the next day that "a protestor was killed in > clashes." This is absurd. If MK Narayanan thinks that he can bring down > protests by the use of brutal force, he is mistaken. Making an executive > engineer frog jump (in Jawahar Nagar) in front of his two sons is not > helping India. It will further alienate the ordinary Kashmiri. > > Rahul Pandita www.sanitysucks.blogspot.com Mobile: 9818088664 > > > --- On Wed, 10/9/08, Khurram Parvez wrote: > > > From: Khurram Parvez > > Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri journalists attacked > > To: "SARAI" > > Date: Wednesday, 10 September, 2008, 7:05 PM > > Press Release > > > > In the aftermath of the Amarnath land controversy, members > > of press in Kashmir have been coming under serious attack by > > the personnel of CRPF and in some measure by the crowds. We > > have reasons to believe that the attacks happen by > > deliberate design of the State agencies. When the governor N > > N Vohra was informed about these attacks, he pleaded > > ignorance and, in presence of some members of press and the > > secretary information, instructed the Director General of > > Police not to let such attacks to continue. > > > > However, to present just one instance, the attacks > > continued the next day, confirming our suspicion that the > > attacks are carried out by design. Journalists have faced > > irrational demands from CRPF personnel manning the streets > > like "you are not carrying a curfew pass for your > > camera." Such instances could tell volumes. > > > > For reference, a list of journalists attacked by security > > forces personnel is attached. It is demanded that the > > process of intimidation of journalists is stopped to enable > > press to carry out its professional duties. > > > > Annexure > > > > July 05 - Raashid Wani of Sahara Samay was severely beaten > > by CRPF at near Jinab Sahib Shrine in Soura. The cameraman > > spent three days in the hospital. > > > > August, 12 - Bashir Ahmad lone -CNN-IBN cameraman's car > > was fired at near Lasjan. Raashid Wani was also beaten up in > > the incident. PRO CRPF later exclaimed that he wonders why > > the guy is beaten up every time. > > > > August, 13 - Javaid Ahmad Mir- Killed by a bullet from > > security forces near Bagh-e-Mehtab. He worked as a cameraman > > with a local cable TV channel. > > > > August 19 - Photojournalist, Amman Farooq, of Greater > > Kashmir was beaten up and his arm broken by CRPF at Bypass > > near Qamarwari. His arm was broken. > > > > August, 22 - Muzamil Rashid of IBN 7 was shooting at Habba > > Kadal when CRPF opened fire on protestors and then tried to > > snatch his camera. He ran away but was severely thrashed. > > Sheikh Umar of News 24 was also injured in the same > > incident. > > > > August 24 - Bilal Bhat, Sahara Samay correspondent along > > with his team members stopped by CRPF at Rambagh. Even > > though he had a curfew pass, he was thrashed. Sustained a > > fracture in his rib. Team members- Jan Mohammad, Rashid Mir, > > Muzzaffar. > > > > August, 24 - S. Fayaz of UNI was stopped near SMHS > > hospital. ``When I showed my curfew pass, the CRPF men said > > it is not valid anymore,'' he said. ``I turned my > > bike to go back but they started hitting him''. > > > > August 24 - AFP photographer Touseef Mustafa was sent back > > from Lal Chowk even though he had a curfew pass. The CRPF > > asked him for Curfew pass of his camera and lens. > > > > August, 24 - Jehangir Aziz of ETV and Khalid Hussain of > > IBN7 were beaten by CRPF near Rambagh. > > > > August, 24 - Manoj Koul of ETV was also thrashed near Zero > > Bridge. He had called DIG operations, CRPF M P Nathanael, > > who told him that the previous curfew passes would be valid. > > But as he reached near old zero bridge, CRPF men thrashed > > him. > > > > August 24 - Amin War of Tribune, Firdous Ahmad of News-X > > and Amin Bhat of NDTV were stopped near Bakshi stadium by > > the CRPF. The CRPF asked them to stuff their curfew passes > > back in their pockets and beat them up. ``The CRPF men told > > us that today, we will do whatever we want. No one can stop > > us,'' Amin War told The Indian Express. > > > > August 25 - CRPF men patrolling the Tehsil Road in > > Baramulla smashed the front and back lights of the car of > > Mir Ehsan, correspondent Indian Express. "They had > > already smashed my car when they asked for the curfew pass. > > I had to run away to save myself." > > > > August 24 – Umar Ganaie, a photojournalist of daily > > Kashmir Monitor, was thrashed by a Superintendent of Kashmir > > Police in SMHS hospital. The photojournalist tried to show > > his curfew pass but the SP tore it apart. He was also beaten > > up by CRPF outside when a police officer asked them to beat > > him. > > > > August, 24 - The local news papers were not allowed to > > distribute their copies. Greater Kashmir staff came under > > assault when Zahoor Ahmad, Mohd. Iqbal, Ghulam Mohammad were > > stopped early morning at Rambagh and beaten up by CRPF men > > while they were carrying copies for distribution. > > Later in the afternoon, CRPF men thrashed three other > > employees of Greater Kashmir, Bashir Ahmad Dar, Mohammad > > Rafiq Margay and Farooq Ahmad Mir were going to their > > editor's place with curfew passes. > > In the evening, Majid Hyderi of Greater Kashmir was > > intimidated at Hyderpora after CRPF men checked his I-Card > > and curfew pass. "They abused me and did not allow me > > go to office," Majid said. > > > > Rising Kashmir staff also came under assault at several > > places on the same day. Farooq Ahmad of distribution section > > of Rising Kashmir and the newspaper's system > > administrator, Rahil, were beaten at Batamaloo while the two > > were carrying newspapers for distribution. > > > > August 25 - Asif Qureshi of Star News was stopped at > > Hyderpora by CRPF and beaten up. His car was also smashed > > while he was coming back from Airport. > > > > August 28 - The Correspondent of Hindu in Kashmir, Shujaat > > Bukhari's home at Rawalpora, Srinagar was raided by > > security forces as they were looking for separatist leaders. > > > > > > August 29 - Hakeem Irfan, Rising Kashmir correspondent, was > > beaten at Rainawari. "Press wale ho, isi liye maar padi > > (You were beaten only because you are a journalist," > > Irfan was told. > > > > August 29 - The news editor of Daily Etalaat, Ishfaq > > Tantray was stopped near Radio Kashmir in Srinagar and > > beaten up. He was beaten up. "aap log hungama karte ho > > (you people are responsible for the problems)". > > > > September 8: Police cops confiscated all the newspaper > > supply - Greater Khasmir, Etalaat, Raising Kahsmir, Kashmir > > Uzam etc - meant for north Kashmir at Narbal, some > > 15-kilometers from Srinagar. The cops also destroyed thje > > camera of Etalaat's photographer Sajad Raja and also > > threatened him. On the same day, around eight > > photojournalists were thrashed by J-K police and Central > > Reserve Police Force (CRPF) in downtown city while covering > > a protest against the killing of a youth. > > > > Others thrashed by CRPF > > > > Syed Muzzaffar - Srinagar Times. > > > > Mukhtar Ahmad - Srinagar Mail. > > > > The mob attacks: > > > > On August 13, the Srinagar Bureau Chief of Aaj Tak, Ashraf > > Wani was injured and his camera broken this morning when > > angry crowd attacked him inside the SMHS hospital, Srinagar. > > > > > > An NDTV cameraman, Amir Bhat was also injured when people > > attacked his vehicle at SKIMS on August 13. > > > > The correspondent of Daily News Analysis (DNA) > > Ishfaq-ul-Hassan was thrashed by people near Karan Nagar. He > > had earlier been stopped by police and was asked to give > > lift to one of their men. When people saw him carrying a > > policeman with him, they stopped him and started beating > > him. > > > > Issued jointly by Srinagar based journalists > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > > header. > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- Rashneek Kher Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten Human Tragedy http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From rahulpandita at yahoo.com Fri Sep 12 16:11:08 2008 From: rahulpandita at yahoo.com (Rahul Pandita) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 03:41:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri journalists attacked In-Reply-To: <13df7c120809120259t2b8c73e2qa9c2fc416d5ea239@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <499274.54676.qm@web30507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Rashneek Many thanks for your response. As for your request of choice of words, I think I would personally stick to ordinary Kashmiris instead of categorising them into Hindus and Muslims. As a journalist, I believe ordinariness is a category in itself which does not take religion into account. It were ordinary Kashmiris who fell victims to Bitta Karate's bullets. And if you follow the events of the past two months, it's only ordinary people who have died - of self immolation, poisoning, terrorist attack or SHO Nawhatta's bullet. A handshake in thoughts r Rahul Pandita www.sanitysucks.blogspot.com Mobile: 9818088664 --- On Fri, 12/9/08, rashneek kher wrote: > From: rashneek kher > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri journalists attacked > To: rahulpandita at yahoo.com > Cc: "SARAI" , khurramparvez at yahoo.com > Date: Friday, 12 September, 2008, 3:29 PM > Dear Rahul, > > you are right.the situation in kashmir is really bad.The > national media does > not report what is happening there.It never did and when it > did it either > underplayed facts or made stereotypes stronger.It was the > media that made us > believe that things are OK in the valley,some 4 months > back.They went gaga > over Santosh Trophy ,Shame Gurukul and Golf > tournaments..They misread calm > for peace.You are yourself a journalist and therefore would > acknowledge how > little do most of the journalists covering Kashmir know or > understand about > it.Anyone who spends a week in A shikara comes back as a > Kashmir Expert.To > expect good reportage from them is asking for the sunshine > in Siberia.I have > personally met a lot of journalists,who write on Kashmir, > without even > having a basic understanding of Kashmir.It is them who > never report the > truth and beat drums of non existenet or hyped Kashmiriyat > when none > exists.Some of them sit in the most influential positions > in media houses.So > Media has always played a rather dubious role in reporting > from or about > Kashmir or Kashmiiris.It is media that did not make any > noise when Bitta > Karate was released.So they are and have been as much a > culprit as the > government or separtists have been in this mess. > On the present crisis-Who can disagree that government has > mishandled the > situation first by giving too much of rope and now putting > too many > curbs.Curfew should have been imposed on day one when > people came out > against the land trasfer order.We would have saved many > innocent lives. > Well I also request you to be more careful in your choice > of words...an > ordinary Kashmiri should read ordinary Kashmiri Muslims.As > far as I know > most Pandits sans people like me are still Indians.We also > need to go back > to the days and places where you and me lived without a > policeman in even 10 > kms radius.Violence begets violence.I am not condoning what > you claim > that the police is doing but genesis of the problem lies in > the armed > insurgency which brought all this upon us the Kashmiris(not > Kashmiri Muslims > Alone). > If MK Narayaan thinks what he is thinking now, he is > actually aping people > like Salaudhin,Yasin Malik and others who though they would > beat India with > guns.Brutal force is no answer.It has taken separtists 18 > years to > understand that maybe Govt will also understand in > sometime. > > Regards > > Rashneek Kher > > > > On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 1:11 PM, Rahul Pandita > wrote: > > > The situation is really bad in Kashmir. And not even a > fraction of what is > > happening there gets reported by the national media. I > was there on > > September 6, in downtown Nawhatta, when a young taxi > driver, Javed Iqbal > > Bhat, was shot at by the police. He died on the spot. > Javed had not even > > been a part of the protestors. He had just stepped out > to buy toffees for > > his two-year-old nephew. The police falsely claimed > that the protestors had > > been using petrol bombs. I was there: nothing beyond > stones was used. > > > > Both TOI and HT reported the next day that "a > protestor was killed in > > clashes." This is absurd. If MK Narayanan thinks > that he can bring down > > protests by the use of brutal force, he is mistaken. > Making an executive > > engineer frog jump (in Jawahar Nagar) in front of his > two sons is not > > helping India. It will further alienate the ordinary > Kashmiri. > > > > Rahul Pandita www.sanitysucks.blogspot.com Mobile: > 9818088664 > > > > > > --- On Wed, 10/9/08, Khurram Parvez > wrote: > > > > > From: Khurram Parvez > > > > Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri journalists > attacked > > > To: "SARAI" > > > > Date: Wednesday, 10 September, 2008, 7:05 PM > > > Press Release > > > > > > In the aftermath of the Amarnath land > controversy, members > > > of press in Kashmir have been coming under > serious attack by > > > the personnel of CRPF and in some measure by the > crowds. We > > > have reasons to believe that the attacks happen > by > > > deliberate design of the State agencies. When the > governor N > > > N Vohra was informed about these attacks, he > pleaded > > > ignorance and, in presence of some members of > press and the > > > secretary information, instructed the Director > General of > > > Police not to let such attacks to continue. > > > > > > However, to present just one instance, the > attacks > > > continued the next day, confirming our suspicion > that the > > > attacks are carried out by design. Journalists > have faced > > > irrational demands from CRPF personnel manning > the streets > > > like "you are not carrying a curfew pass for > your > > > camera." Such instances could tell volumes. > > > > > > For reference, a list of journalists attacked by > security > > > forces personnel is attached. It is demanded that > the > > > process of intimidation of journalists is stopped > to enable > > > press to carry out its professional duties. > > > > > > Annexure > > > > > > July 05 - Raashid Wani of Sahara Samay was > severely beaten > > > by CRPF at near Jinab Sahib Shrine in Soura. The > cameraman > > > spent three days in the hospital. > > > > > > August, 12 - Bashir Ahmad lone -CNN-IBN > cameraman's car > > > was fired at near Lasjan. Raashid Wani was also > beaten up in > > > the incident. PRO CRPF later exclaimed that he > wonders why > > > the guy is beaten up every time. > > > > > > August, 13 - Javaid Ahmad Mir- Killed by a bullet > from > > > security forces near Bagh-e-Mehtab. He worked as > a cameraman > > > with a local cable TV channel. > > > > > > August 19 - Photojournalist, Amman Farooq, of > Greater > > > Kashmir was beaten up and his arm broken by CRPF > at Bypass > > > near Qamarwari. His arm was broken. > > > > > > August, 22 - Muzamil Rashid of IBN 7 was shooting > at Habba > > > Kadal when CRPF opened fire on protestors and > then tried to > > > snatch his camera. He ran away but was severely > thrashed. > > > Sheikh Umar of News 24 was also injured in the > same > > > incident. > > > > > > August 24 - Bilal Bhat, Sahara Samay > correspondent along > > > with his team members stopped by CRPF at Rambagh. > Even > > > though he had a curfew pass, he was thrashed. > Sustained a > > > fracture in his rib. Team members- Jan Mohammad, > Rashid Mir, > > > Muzzaffar. > > > > > > August, 24 - S. Fayaz of UNI was stopped near > SMHS > > > hospital. ``When I showed my curfew pass, the > CRPF men said > > > it is not valid anymore,'' he said. ``I > turned my > > > bike to go back but they started hitting > him''. > > > > > > August 24 - AFP photographer Touseef Mustafa was > sent back > > > from Lal Chowk even though he had a curfew pass. > The CRPF > > > asked him for Curfew pass of his camera and lens. > > > > > > August, 24 - Jehangir Aziz of ETV and Khalid > Hussain of > > > IBN7 were beaten by CRPF near Rambagh. > > > > > > August, 24 - Manoj Koul of ETV was also thrashed > near Zero > > > Bridge. He had called DIG operations, CRPF M P > Nathanael, > > > who told him that the previous curfew passes > would be valid. > > > But as he reached near old zero bridge, CRPF men > thrashed > > > him. > > > > > > August 24 - Amin War of Tribune, Firdous Ahmad of > News-X > > > and Amin Bhat of NDTV were stopped near Bakshi > stadium by > > > the CRPF. The CRPF asked them to stuff their > curfew passes > > > back in their pockets and beat them up. ``The > CRPF men told > > > us that today, we will do whatever we want. No > one can stop > > > us,'' Amin War told The Indian Express. > > > > > > August 25 - CRPF men patrolling the Tehsil Road > in > > > Baramulla smashed the front and back lights of > the car of > > > Mir Ehsan, correspondent Indian Express. > "They had > > > already smashed my car when they asked for the > curfew pass. > > > I had to run away to save myself." > > > > > > August 24 – Umar Ganaie, a photojournalist of > daily > > > Kashmir Monitor, was thrashed by a Superintendent > of Kashmir > > > Police in SMHS hospital. The photojournalist > tried to show > > > his curfew pass but the SP tore it apart. He was > also beaten > > > up by CRPF outside when a police officer asked > them to beat > > > him. > > > > > > August, 24 - The local news papers were not > allowed to > > > distribute their copies. Greater Kashmir staff > came under > > > assault when Zahoor Ahmad, Mohd. Iqbal, Ghulam > Mohammad were > > > stopped early morning at Rambagh and beaten up by > CRPF men > > > while they were carrying copies for distribution. > > > Later in the afternoon, CRPF men thrashed three > other > > > employees of Greater Kashmir, Bashir Ahmad Dar, > Mohammad > > > Rafiq Margay and Farooq Ahmad Mir were going to > their > > > editor's place with curfew passes. > > > In the evening, Majid Hyderi of Greater Kashmir > was > > > intimidated at Hyderpora after CRPF men checked > his I-Card > > > and curfew pass. "They abused me and did not > allow me > > > go to office," Majid said. > > > > > > Rising Kashmir staff also came under assault at > several > > > places on the same day. Farooq Ahmad of > distribution section > > > of Rising Kashmir and the newspaper's system > > > administrator, Rahil, were beaten at Batamaloo > while the two > > > were carrying newspapers for distribution. > > > > > > August 25 - Asif Qureshi of Star News was stopped > at > > > Hyderpora by CRPF and beaten up. His car was also > smashed > > > while he was coming back from Airport. > > > > > > August 28 - The Correspondent of Hindu in > Kashmir, Shujaat > > > Bukhari's home at Rawalpora, Srinagar was > raided by > > > security forces as they were looking for > separatist leaders. > > > > > > > > > August 29 - Hakeem Irfan, Rising Kashmir > correspondent, was > > > beaten at Rainawari. "Press wale ho, isi > liye maar padi > > > (You were beaten only because you are a > journalist," > > > Irfan was told. > > > > > > August 29 - The news editor of Daily Etalaat, > Ishfaq > > > Tantray was stopped near Radio Kashmir in > Srinagar and > > > beaten up. He was beaten up. "aap log > hungama karte ho > > > (you people are responsible for the > problems)". > > > > > > September 8: Police cops confiscated all the > newspaper > > > supply - Greater Khasmir, Etalaat, Raising > Kahsmir, Kashmir > > > Uzam etc - meant for north Kashmir at Narbal, > some > > > 15-kilometers from Srinagar. The cops also > destroyed thje > > > camera of Etalaat's photographer Sajad Raja > and also > > > threatened him. On the same day, around eight > > > photojournalists were thrashed by J-K police and > Central > > > Reserve Police Force (CRPF) in downtown city > while covering > > > a protest against the killing of a youth. > > > > > > Others thrashed by CRPF > > > > > > Syed Muzzaffar - Srinagar Times. > > > > > > Mukhtar Ahmad - Srinagar Mail. > > > > > > The mob attacks: > > > > > > On August 13, the Srinagar Bureau Chief of Aaj > Tak, Ashraf > > > Wani was injured and his camera broken this > morning when > > > angry crowd attacked him inside the SMHS > hospital, Srinagar. > > > > > > > > > An NDTV cameraman, Amir Bhat was also injured > when people > > > attacked his vehicle at SKIMS on August 13. > > > > > > The correspondent of Daily News Analysis (DNA) > > > Ishfaq-ul-Hassan was thrashed by people near > Karan Nagar. He > > > had earlier been stopped by police and was asked > to give > > > lift to one of their men. When people saw him > carrying a > > > policeman with him, they stopped him and started > beating > > > him. > > > > > > Issued jointly by Srinagar based journalists > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject > > > header. > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > -- > Rashneek Kher > Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten Human Tragedy > http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com > http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Fri Sep 12 19:40:37 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 19:40:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Delhi University gets ABVP president after 8 years/reader-list Digest, Vol 62, Issue 35 In-Reply-To: <6353c690809112114y44394608h13082b6c0110dd4b@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00809111254w4ffe9d25paa76634256c3d4c1@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690809112114y44394608h13082b6c0110dd4b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0809120710u33e485dcjb405e1d3662c7be4@mail.gmail.com> Dear Aditya, I appreciate your honesty, and I am not entering this conversation with a view to being antagonistic for no reason. But I think here are very serious issues at stake here and therefore we should discuss and approach them in that spirit. I have no interest in whom you choose to support for DUSU president. That is your personal political choice, and unless it has some bearing on what we are discussing here, i don't see why it should enter this conversation. However you have raised some serious questions on caste-based reservations in this and previous mails which I think need to be addressed. First, on the nature of the "movement" launched by you, supported by "doctor friends": I am sure, for instance, you know that one "mode of protest" that was adopted by your 'doctor friends" in AIIMS was sweeping the streets. I am not sure who thought this up, and I certainly hope it was not you, but I hope the deep symbolic violence of this action is not lost on you. I am sure you also know that dalit and OBC students face very severe discrimination in medical colleges, including AIIMS. Such as separate hostels, and till recently, eating on separate tables. Further while the upper-caste media went to town covering the "relay-hunger strike" against the reservations in which students fasted between breakfast and lunch, lying on dhurries with coolers and fans for company, the OPD departements which had been completely abandoned by these "doctors" was run by dalit and OBC students. They also went on hunger-strike, but they did not abandon their primary commitment to patients. I think this says a lot for the kind of commitment they actually have for their career as doctors don't you? The only people who can afford to ignore caste are upper-caste Hindus who have had an informal reservation in their favour for centuries in this country. Interestingly, when after independence there was a move to abolish caste as part of the census questionaiire, who favoured this? The upper-castes of course. Why? Because when an axis of inequality works in your favour, you can afford to be outside it. And like other inequalities, caste-based ineqaulity interpellates everyone. The fiction of the "unmarked citizen" who enters the public sphere solely on merit is an illusion that is underwritten by caste, class, race, gender and religion. Any attempt to unmask this is immediately met by furious gestures of being "casteist". What does this mean? It means that when one accurately locates the source of discrimination and inequality, one is accused of being casteist because we can no longer pretend that caste doesn't exist. And so powerful is this rhetoric of "merit", as if "merit" itself is produced out of thin air, or as if it is some essence to be found innately in human beings, that people are considered to be less worthy human beings if they do not fall in line with its dogmas. So don't cite the presence of obc and dalit students as part of your "movement" as some sort of affirmation. It is not. It is falls within the same logic as when beyonce knowles or oprah winfrey deny that race is an axis of discrimination in America, that there is no racial discrimination. It tells us how powerful is this rhetoric of merit, how powerful is the illusion of "choice' of "universal citizenship". Please realise what you are arguing for when you argue against caste-based reservations. You are essentially arguing for a continuation of upper-case privelege, thinly disguised as "merit". regards Aarti On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 9:44 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Dear Prakash bhai, > > I was honest in my previous mail and will remain so; and it would have > been a positive change if you would have respected my honesty. > > I oppose caste based reservations and will remain firm with my stand. Also, > I'm no one from 'Youth For Equality' to answer your queries. So, Kindly > visit any of YFE Chapters and ask them there itself. Just to enligten you a > bit, it wasn't just general category students but hundreds of SC ST and OBC > who used to take part in protests with us. I personally know so many of > them > from IIT, NSIT, DU, IP etc. who used to lead our protests. You sure are > unaware to this fact, 'why so?' that only you may be able to answer. > > "Who do you think was an able candidate for the position of President in > the > recently concluded elections of DUSU ?" - If you answer this, it would > simplyfy your confusion. I didn't support Nupur Sharma because she was from > ABVP, but because she had the capacity to lead and was able enough to > become > the DUSU President. Others in the fray, were more so a confused lot. I met > them, SFI-AISA etc were struggling to make space in the elections. NSUI, > even though had free flow of money from Congress, couldn't choose a better > candidate then Sonia Sapra. I met almost all candidates and finally > concluded on Nupur being the only positive choice. You may like to differ > forgetting the individuals and considering only the party line, but > unfortunately or fortunately, for me, individuals and parties are both > equally important. > > I didn't betray United Students, as you may have liked, but have supported > a > change in the making. I still stand by that 'Hindu' statement. Some > Individuals who don't waste time puting across allegations on others, do > work for the students silently in the DU Campus. > > P.S. Even in the DU Elections; officially it isn't a party or a group > contesting, it is actually the individuals. The parties have no authority > or > right given by the DU. > > Hope your sonfusion has been solved. Its better you shift your focus > towards > something constructive. > > Love > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > On 9/11/08, prakash ray wrote: > > > > Mr Kaul, > > > > Before you oppose reservations, I suggest you must demand for equal > > distribution of property, land, and opportunities, and above all, the > > equality of dignity and respect for each and every one. We always raise a > > slogan against the Youth for Equality- 'Baap ki daulat chhod ke bolo tum > > equality'. You have written that since Nupur Sharma is your friend, so > you > > supported her in the elections. it shows that your personal relations > > matter > > more than the issue you are 'fighting' for. By supporting her you have > > betrayed the United Students, the organization you formed. In a report > > published in The Hindu on September 4, 2006, you have said- "We believe > > that > > a new direction must be given to the students movement. Traditional > student > > unions are overly politicised and have become symptomatic of the maladies > > of > > our present political class. They are no longer about us, but about their > > political masters. Our manifesto is a reflection of what we want to see > in > > our campuses and colleges - and in this great institution called Delhi > > University." Now, you support such an organization. > > > > what should I reply or say!! > > > > Regards, > > > > Prakash K Ray > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From tapasrayx at gmail.com Fri Sep 12 19:52:55 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 10:22:55 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Delhi University gets ABVP president after 8 years/reader-list Digest, Vol 62, Issue 35 In-Reply-To: <6353c690809112114y44394608h13082b6c0110dd4b@mail.gmail.com> References: <98f331e00809111254w4ffe9d25paa76634256c3d4c1@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690809112114y44394608h13082b6c0110dd4b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Just a thought. Is this list meant for sparring over Delhi University student union elections? That's not the idea I got from the list description. If we talk about DUSU, what about the other hundreds of college and university SU's in India, and similar numbers in other countries? 2008/9/12 Aditya Raj Kaul : > Dear Prakash bhai, > > I was honest in my previous mail and will remain so; and it would have > been a positive change if you would have respected my honesty. > > I oppose caste based reservations and will remain firm with my stand. Also, > I'm no one from 'Youth For Equality' to answer your queries. So, Kindly > visit any of YFE Chapters and ask them there itself. Just to enligten you a > bit, it wasn't just general category students but hundreds of SC ST and OBC > who used to take part in protests with us. I personally know so many of them > from IIT, NSIT, DU, IP etc. who used to lead our protests. You sure are > unaware to this fact, 'why so?' that only you may be able to answer. > > "Who do you think was an able candidate for the position of President in the > recently concluded elections of DUSU ?" - If you answer this, it would > simplyfy your confusion. I didn't support Nupur Sharma because she was from > ABVP, but because she had the capacity to lead and was able enough to become > the DUSU President. Others in the fray, were more so a confused lot. I met > them, SFI-AISA etc were struggling to make space in the elections. NSUI, > even though had free flow of money from Congress, couldn't choose a better > candidate then Sonia Sapra. I met almost all candidates and finally > concluded on Nupur being the only positive choice. You may like to differ > forgetting the individuals and considering only the party line, but > unfortunately or fortunately, for me, individuals and parties are both > equally important. > > I didn't betray United Students, as you may have liked, but have supported a > change in the making. I still stand by that 'Hindu' statement. Some > Individuals who don't waste time puting across allegations on others, do > work for the students silently in the DU Campus. > > P.S. Even in the DU Elections; officially it isn't a party or a group > contesting, it is actually the individuals. The parties have no authority or > right given by the DU. > > Hope your sonfusion has been solved. Its better you shift your focus towards > something constructive. > > Love > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > On 9/11/08, prakash ray wrote: >> >> Mr Kaul, >> >> Before you oppose reservations, I suggest you must demand for equal >> distribution of property, land, and opportunities, and above all, the >> equality of dignity and respect for each and every one. We always raise a >> slogan against the Youth for Equality- 'Baap ki daulat chhod ke bolo tum >> equality'. You have written that since Nupur Sharma is your friend, so you >> supported her in the elections. it shows that your personal relations >> matter >> more than the issue you are 'fighting' for. By supporting her you have >> betrayed the United Students, the organization you formed. In a report >> published in The Hindu on September 4, 2006, you have said- "We believe >> that >> a new direction must be given to the students movement. Traditional student >> unions are overly politicised and have become symptomatic of the maladies >> of >> our present political class. They are no longer about us, but about their >> political masters. Our manifesto is a reflection of what we want to see in >> our campuses and colleges - and in this great institution called Delhi >> University." Now, you support such an organization. >> >> what should I reply or say!! >> >> Regards, >> >> Prakash K Ray >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Fri Sep 12 20:26:38 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 20:26:38 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Delhi University gets ABVP president after 8 years/reader-list Digest, Vol 62, Issue 35 In-Reply-To: References: <98f331e00809111254w4ffe9d25paa76634256c3d4c1@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690809112114y44394608h13082b6c0110dd4b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0809120756k3a343c83g69a67431c04031c1@mail.gmail.com> Well, I think there is no consensus on what this list is meant for, so I'm not sure why Delhi University student elections cannot be a topic for discussion, as can student unions anywhere else if people choose to talk about them. Having said that I agree that sometimes the list descends into a parochialism where it seems that only india, in that delhi, is the locus of all conversation, and as far as possible its best to avoid discussions of this nature. Unless of course a particular discussion is meant to open out a larger set of issues. So nandigram panchayat elections have been discussed on this list, for good reason I would think. Which is why I thought that I was referring to a larger issue of caste-based reservations in general, which certainly do not apply only to Delhi University. regards A On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 7:52 PM, Tapas Ray wrote: > Just a thought. Is this list meant for sparring over Delhi University > student union elections? That's not the idea I got from the list > description. If we talk about DUSU, what about the other hundreds of > college and university SU's in India, and similar numbers in other > countries? > > > > 2008/9/12 Aditya Raj Kaul : > > Dear Prakash bhai, > > > > I was honest in my previous mail and will remain so; and it would have > > been a positive change if you would have respected my honesty. > > > > I oppose caste based reservations and will remain firm with my stand. > Also, > > I'm no one from 'Youth For Equality' to answer your queries. So, Kindly > > visit any of YFE Chapters and ask them there itself. Just to enligten you > a > > bit, it wasn't just general category students but hundreds of SC ST and > OBC > > who used to take part in protests with us. I personally know so many of > them > > from IIT, NSIT, DU, IP etc. who used to lead our protests. You sure are > > unaware to this fact, 'why so?' that only you may be able to answer. > > > > "Who do you think was an able candidate for the position of President in > the > > recently concluded elections of DUSU ?" - If you answer this, it would > > simplyfy your confusion. I didn't support Nupur Sharma because she was > from > > ABVP, but because she had the capacity to lead and was able enough to > become > > the DUSU President. Others in the fray, were more so a confused lot. I > met > > them, SFI-AISA etc were struggling to make space in the elections. NSUI, > > even though had free flow of money from Congress, couldn't choose a > better > > candidate then Sonia Sapra. I met almost all candidates and finally > > concluded on Nupur being the only positive choice. You may like to differ > > forgetting the individuals and considering only the party line, but > > unfortunately or fortunately, for me, individuals and parties are both > > equally important. > > > > I didn't betray United Students, as you may have liked, but have > supported a > > change in the making. I still stand by that 'Hindu' statement. Some > > Individuals who don't waste time puting across allegations on others, do > > work for the students silently in the DU Campus. > > > > P.S. Even in the DU Elections; officially it isn't a party or a group > > contesting, it is actually the individuals. The parties have no authority > or > > right given by the DU. > > > > Hope your sonfusion has been solved. Its better you shift your focus > towards > > something constructive. > > > > Love > > > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > On 9/11/08, prakash ray wrote: > >> > >> Mr Kaul, > >> > >> Before you oppose reservations, I suggest you must demand for equal > >> distribution of property, land, and opportunities, and above all, the > >> equality of dignity and respect for each and every one. We always raise > a > >> slogan against the Youth for Equality- 'Baap ki daulat chhod ke bolo tum > >> equality'. You have written that since Nupur Sharma is your friend, so > you > >> supported her in the elections. it shows that your personal relations > >> matter > >> more than the issue you are 'fighting' for. By supporting her you have > >> betrayed the United Students, the organization you formed. In a report > >> published in The Hindu on September 4, 2006, you have said- "We believe > >> that > >> a new direction must be given to the students movement. Traditional > student > >> unions are overly politicised and have become symptomatic of the > maladies > >> of > >> our present political class. They are no longer about us, but about > their > >> political masters. Our manifesto is a reflection of what we want to see > in > >> our campuses and colleges - and in this great institution called Delhi > >> University." Now, you support such an organization. > >> > >> what should I reply or say!! > >> > >> Regards, > >> > >> Prakash K Ray > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From indersalim at gmail.com Fri Sep 12 20:55:09 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 20:55:09 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: some humour Message-ID: <47e122a70809120825m78148736ie6d89e6436c80348@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Ana gonzalez Date: Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 7:28 AM Subject: FW: proper diet To: The smaller crocodile turned to the bigger one & said, 'I can'tunderstand how you can be so much bigger than me. We're the same age;we were the same size as kids. I just don't get it.' 'Well,' said the big Croc, 'what have you been eating?' 'Politicians, same as you,' replied the small Croc. 'Hmm. Well, where do you catch them?' 'Down the other side of the swamp near the parking lot by the Capitol.' 'Same here. Hmm. How do you catch them?' 'Well, I crawl up under one of their Lexus cars & wait for one tounlock the car door. Then I jump out, grab them by the leg, shake theshit out of them & eat 'em!' 'Ah!' says the big Crocodile, 'I think I see your problem. You're notgetting any real nourishment. See, by the time you finish shaking theshit out of a politician, there's nothing left but an asshole and abriefcase.' From chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com Fri Sep 12 21:53:31 2008 From: chanchal_malviya at yahoo.com (chanchal malviya) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 09:23:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Raj vs. Hussain Message-ID: <106214.63848.qm@web90401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Raj Tahackerey vs M. F. Hussain Mrs. Jaya Bachchan says something for Hindi speaking people (to be noted: she did not abuse Marathi) and not only she but also her husband is made to apologize within no time. And the apology is ‘If we have hurt the sentiments of even a single Maharashtrian, we apologize as our intention was not to do so’. M. F. Hussain paints not only Hindu Deities nude, but also makes our Bharat mata nude. No doubt, it hurt the sentiments of millions of Hindus. There is not voice in media that could demand a statement declaring: ‘If I have hurt the sentiments of people of India, I apologize, though my intention was not so’. It is so simple to apologize, if your intentions are not wrong, as was done by Bachchan family. India might be a secular country, but isn’t it the message clear from the painting of M. F. Hussain that Bharat Mata is only for Hindus and hence she has to strip. The message is out there – anything that is Hindu would be at least stripped, not to say at most what. There is no doubt that Mr. Raj Thackerey has made us realize that holding to our mother tongue is also a crime. One can speak English, if not Marathi, but not Hindi, so what Marathi was born out of Hindi only. Hindi or Hindu, both are made to be stripped. Apology is the minimum that they have to do for now. God knows what lies ahead. It is secularism to get converted from Hindu to Christian or Islam, but the other way round is pure communalism. Sorry, you are not allowed to convert back to Hindu. And if you attempt, there is sure death for you – case of Swami Laminananda is the message if you attempted it. Mr. Raj Thackerey do not have an issue even if Marathi Hindus are attacked and not allowed to perform Durga Puja in very Maharashtra (at Achalpur) so long as the people who attacked are not ‘Bhaiyas’ (attackers were none other than Muslims). Bhaiyas have to leave the land of Mr. Raj Thackerey, so what if they are not blasting the Nation, like Islamic brother of Mr. Thackerey. If someone goes and talks to the parents about Hinduism, they immediately protect their children. So what they participate in the Bandh called for the protection and proliferation of Christians by Missionary schools. Kashmiri Hindus were thrown out of their own homeland and their land, property and women occupied by Muslims. But they had room to move down in India (not up or westwards towards Pakistan). Where will we Hindus go if we have more Kashmirs around? Mr. Raj Thackerey must start thinking about where Marathis will go the day Maharashtra will turn to another Kashmir. Already we have more than a Crore Bangladeshi existing in Maharashtra alone illegally. We are sure to meet a situation, where M. F. Hussain would do no more exercise of painting his imaginations. Artists like him, will get enough options to do such paintings live. We are sure to meet a situation, where Mr. Raj Thackerey would not hear any more apologies, as he will have only two options left with him – either get painted by Hussain or change under secular umbrella to facilitate Hussain painting. It is unfortunate for this country that the nation is painted nude and is being sold out and the people of this country are discussing about rights of a painter. It is unfortunate for the mothers of this nation who are producing child who cannot protect their own mother against such shameful attack. It is unfortunate that so much chemical fertilizers have been mixed in the soil of India, that it is not able to produce any more Shivaji. Ah who cares for Savarkar. The only hero of the nation is one who taught us to let our enemy beat us. Khilafat and killing of Hindus was not material for him, protection of his own fake idea of ‘Sarva Dharma Sambhav’ was more precious. History could not teach him nor could his own personal experience. It is an unfortunate for the people of the nation who are still following the same scrap of the party who do not feel ashamed to put the Son as the Father of his own Motherland. If Mahatma Gandhi would have been great, he would have come out of his grave and called upon the Nehru and Congressmen – What are you doing? India is my mother and you are making me her father. This is a murder of sense of patriotism, and children are taught this in the name of patriotism. British used exactly this policy throughout, and Congress is successfully continuing it. How silly that the people of this nation do not even oppose this? Why do you pay Road Tax or money at Tolls? Because, if roads are not maintained you cannot travel on it for long. You need to pay tax to run the country. How do you think that the basic culture of this country will remain alive, if you do not pay tax towards it also? If you think that you donate to temples and your job is done – sorry – all rich temples are in acquisition of Government and not the priests whom you abuse. Why people of India are so dead that they cannot even see what is happening before their own eyes? Surely, they all are sleeping in their own selfish shell of individualism. If they keep sleeping like this, the long sleep is the only fate their children will get in gift from them. Awake now for your mother (motherland is in problem) or Your Children will Sleep Forever. Join hands with groups that are pure Hindus, for Hinduism is the mother of this nation and this nation remains secular as long as Hindus are in majority. But Hindus also must understand a simple thing: Even God will not help them, if they do not help themselves. Lord Krishna didn’t choose any idiot and selfish person to fight the battle of Mahabharat. He supported the strong Arjuna. If Hindus fail to show their unity, strength and liveliness, even Lord Krishna will have to tell some Arjuna – ‘See these people are already dead, and there is no harm in killing them just for sake’. Who will take the side of the dead? Swami Vivekananda is still calling on you: Awake Hindu! Awake! From pkray11 at gmail.com Sat Sep 13 01:25:45 2008 From: pkray11 at gmail.com (prakash ray) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 01:25:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Ajai T G in Mumbai Message-ID: <98f331e00809121255u74377b1fm10e4fd86861e6a0b@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, As you all are aware that the Raipur-based documentary film maker, Ajay T G, is out of jail on bail for some weeks. A public meeting is being organised in Mumbai where Ajay will be speaking along with Anand Patwardhan and others on his arrest and detention, and the present situation in Chhattisgarh. A few of Ajay's films will also be screened on the occasion. If you are in Mumbai, please attend this meeting and kindly tell others about it. Date of public meeting : Friday, 19th September, 2008 Time : 6 pm. Venue : Bhupesh Gupta Bhawan, 3rd floor, Sayani Road, (near Ravindra Natya Mandir), Prabhadevi, Mumbai. Regards, Prakash From machleetank at gmail.com Sat Sep 13 03:15:56 2008 From: machleetank at gmail.com (Jasmeen Patheja) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 17:45:56 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Moments of a Long Pause In-Reply-To: <89a917f70809111403j6e3b974fsfb062bc665673999@mail.gmail.com> References: <277f58b70809111012q62710252g537c85d20dc42e6d@mail.gmail.com> <277f58b70809111013t115f65eagd142ff2b8c2935da@mail.gmail.com> <89a917f70809111018u7f1e6eaaqf283281ecd1030f@mail.gmail.com> <89a917f70809111403j6e3b974fsfb062bc665673999@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello! * Blank Noise *is participating in *Street Art ,Street Life at the Bronx Museum of Arts*. Blank Noise is presenting *Moments of a Long Pause*, a video installation based on interviews with many men and women across five cities in India. The 2 channel video attempts to understand how both men and women approach eve teasing and street sexual violence in their daily lives. The show begins on *Sept 14th from noon to 6 pm* *and is on until the 25th of January.* You could also confirm on facebook: http://www.new.facebook.com/editevent.php?picture&eid=24312104661&new&m=1#/event.php?eid=24312104661 We hope to see you there! *Blank Noise Team * > * We thank the Bronx Museum for their support towards the making of this work. **We also thank Akademie Schloss Solitude and Ashoka Innovators for Public.* * * From machleetank at gmail.com Sat Sep 13 03:16:21 2008 From: machleetank at gmail.com (Jasmeen Patheja) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 17:46:21 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Moments of a Long Pause In-Reply-To: References: <277f58b70809111012q62710252g537c85d20dc42e6d@mail.gmail.com> <277f58b70809111013t115f65eagd142ff2b8c2935da@mail.gmail.com> <89a917f70809111018u7f1e6eaaqf283281ecd1030f@mail.gmail.com> <89a917f70809111403j6e3b974fsfb062bc665673999@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello! * Blank Noise *is participating in *Street Art ,Street Life at the Bronx Museum of Arts*. Blank Noise is presenting *Moments of a Long Pause*, a video installation based on interviews with many men and women across five cities in India. The 2 channel video attempts to understand how both men and women approach eve teasing and street sexual violence in their daily lives. The show begins on *Sept 14th from noon to 6 pm* *and is on until the 25th of January.* You could also confirm on facebook: http://www.new.facebook.com/editevent.php?picture&eid=24312104661&new&m=1#/event.php?eid=24312104661 We hope to see you there! *Blank Noise Team * > * We thank the Bronx Museum for their support towards the making of this work. **We also thank Akademie Schloss Solitude and Ashoka Innovators for Public.* * * -- http:blog.blanknoise.org http:blanknoiseactionheroes.blogspot.com mob: 0091 98868 40612 From tapasrayx at gmail.com Sat Sep 13 04:50:11 2008 From: tapasrayx at gmail.com (Tapas Ray) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 19:20:11 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Delhi University gets ABVP president after 8 years/reader-list Digest, Vol 62, Issue 35 In-Reply-To: References: <98f331e00809111254w4ffe9d25paa76634256c3d4c1@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690809112114y44394608h13082b6c0110dd4b@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809120756k3a343c83g69a67431c04031c1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Sorry, I hit reply again, instead of reply all. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Aarti, Before sending my post, I had missed your last one, in which you gave the discussion a broader scope than it had until then. The discussion had been not only very local in content but also full of ad hominem attacks as far as I could tell from running my eyes over them. I must confess that I did not read them, and probably would not have read them even if I could. Anyway, the point is that I was not referring to that particular post of yours. I am a little confused about the consensus issue. When CSDS people started this list, they posted a precise statement of its purpose on the web site. At that point there could have been no question of a consensus among list members other than themselves, simply because there were none. If a consensus is needed now, a separate thread can be started to discuss and decide - within a reasonable time frame - what the purpose should be. Whatever is decided, should be stated clearly and some kind of regular moderating introduced so that discussions are not all over the place and abusive. At present they have nothing to do with the stated purpose. This goes for the ones I have participated in, as well as others. I agree that local issues can and should be discussed if they open up larger questions. However, I think that if they are to be brought up, that should be done to present them as instances of larger processes. That is not how this particular discussion started, as far as I can see. It started when Aditya Raj Kaul pasted an Economic Times story on the ABVP victory in DUSU elections. We should remember that many - probably most - discussions here may not be of much interest to those who live outside particular areas, such as West Bengal or Kashmir or Delhi, not to speak of India. Yes, you can delete the posts you do not want to read, but that only takes care of a part of the problem. I think a bigger issue is that these endless charges and counter-charges leave little room for discussions on substantive issues that are of interest at least to a large minority of members if not a majority. Just my two-bit. Tapas 2008/9/12 Aarti Sethi : > Well, I think there is no consensus on what this list is meant for, so I'm > not sure why Delhi University student elections cannot be a topic for > discussion, as can student unions anywhere else if people choose to talk > about them. Having said that I agree that sometimes the list descends into a > parochialism where it seems that only india, in that delhi, is the locus of > all conversation, and as far as possible its best to avoid discussions of > this nature. Unless of course a particular discussion is meant to open out a > larger set of issues. So nandigram panchayat elections have been discussed > on this list, for good reason I would think. > > Which is why I thought that I was referring to a larger issue of caste-based > reservations in general, which certainly do not apply only to Delhi > University. > > regards > A > > On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 7:52 PM, Tapas Ray wrote: >> >> Just a thought. Is this list meant for sparring over Delhi University >> student union elections? That's not the idea I got from the list >> description. If we talk about DUSU, what about the other hundreds of >> college and university SU's in India, and similar numbers in other >> countries? >> >> >> >> 2008/9/12 Aditya Raj Kaul : >> > Dear Prakash bhai, >> > >> > I was honest in my previous mail and will remain so; and it would >> > have >> > been a positive change if you would have respected my honesty. >> > >> > I oppose caste based reservations and will remain firm with my stand. >> > Also, >> > I'm no one from 'Youth For Equality' to answer your queries. So, Kindly >> > visit any of YFE Chapters and ask them there itself. Just to enligten >> > you a >> > bit, it wasn't just general category students but hundreds of SC ST and >> > OBC >> > who used to take part in protests with us. I personally know so many of >> > them >> > from IIT, NSIT, DU, IP etc. who used to lead our protests. You sure are >> > unaware to this fact, 'why so?' that only you may be able to answer. >> > >> > "Who do you think was an able candidate for the position of President in >> > the >> > recently concluded elections of DUSU ?" - If you answer this, it would >> > simplyfy your confusion. I didn't support Nupur Sharma because she was >> > from >> > ABVP, but because she had the capacity to lead and was able enough to >> > become >> > the DUSU President. Others in the fray, were more so a confused lot. I >> > met >> > them, SFI-AISA etc were struggling to make space in the elections. NSUI, >> > even though had free flow of money from Congress, couldn't choose a >> > better >> > candidate then Sonia Sapra. I met almost all candidates and finally >> > concluded on Nupur being the only positive choice. You may like to >> > differ >> > forgetting the individuals and considering only the party line, but >> > unfortunately or fortunately, for me, individuals and parties are both >> > equally important. >> > >> > I didn't betray United Students, as you may have liked, but have >> > supported a >> > change in the making. I still stand by that 'Hindu' statement. Some >> > Individuals who don't waste time puting across allegations on others, do >> > work for the students silently in the DU Campus. >> > >> > P.S. Even in the DU Elections; officially it isn't a party or a group >> > contesting, it is actually the individuals. The parties have no >> > authority or >> > right given by the DU. >> > >> > Hope your sonfusion has been solved. Its better you shift your focus >> > towards >> > something constructive. >> > >> > Love >> > >> > Aditya Raj Kaul >> > >> > On 9/11/08, prakash ray wrote: >> >> >> >> Mr Kaul, >> >> >> >> Before you oppose reservations, I suggest you must demand for equal >> >> distribution of property, land, and opportunities, and above all, the >> >> equality of dignity and respect for each and every one. We always raise >> >> a >> >> slogan against the Youth for Equality- 'Baap ki daulat chhod ke bolo >> >> tum >> >> equality'. You have written that since Nupur Sharma is your friend, so >> >> you >> >> supported her in the elections. it shows that your personal relations >> >> matter >> >> more than the issue you are 'fighting' for. By supporting her you have >> >> betrayed the United Students, the organization you formed. In a report >> >> published in The Hindu on September 4, 2006, you have said- "We believe >> >> that >> >> a new direction must be given to the students movement. Traditional >> >> student >> >> unions are overly politicised and have become symptomatic of the >> >> maladies >> >> of >> >> our present political class. They are no longer about us, but about >> >> their >> >> political masters. Our manifesto is a reflection of what we want to see >> >> in >> >> our campuses and colleges - and in this great institution called Delhi >> >> University." Now, you support such an organization. >> >> >> >> what should I reply or say!! >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> >> >> Prakash K Ray >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From difusion at medialab-prado.es Fri Sep 12 18:38:02 2008 From: difusion at medialab-prado.es (Difusion Medialab-Prado) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 15:08:02 +0200 Subject: [Reader-list] Open Call for projects and papers> VISUALIZAR'08: DATABASE CITY Message-ID: <48CA69B2.1030705@medialab-prado.es> VISUALIZAR'08: DATABASE CITY International Project Development Workshop-Seminar November 3 - 18, 2008 at Medialab-Prado, Madrid (Spain) Projects and Papers submission deadline: October 5 Open and participatory workshop-seminar around the theory, tools and visualization strategies applied to the urban context. The selected projects must be open to the participation of other interested collaborators, who will be able to contribute to the production of the pieces during the development of the workshop. Directed by José Luis de Vicente. Call for Projects: http://medialab-prado.es/article/visualizar08_database_city_-_convocatoria_para_proyectos Call for Papers: http://medialab-prado.es/article/visualizar08_database_city_-_convocatoria_para_comunicaciones In collaboration with FECYT Contact: visualizar at medialab-prado.es -- Nerea García Garmendia Medialab-Prado Área de Las Artes, Ayuntamiento de Madrid Plaza de las Letras Alameda, 15 28014 Madrid Tfno. +34 914 202 754 difusion at medialab-prado.es www.medialab-prado.es From machleetank at gmail.com Sat Sep 13 03:16:21 2008 From: machleetank at gmail.com (Jasmeen Patheja) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 17:46:21 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Moments of a Long Pause In-Reply-To: References: <277f58b70809111012q62710252g537c85d20dc42e6d@mail.gmail.com> <277f58b70809111013t115f65eagd142ff2b8c2935da@mail.gmail.com> <89a917f70809111018u7f1e6eaaqf283281ecd1030f@mail.gmail.com> <89a917f70809111403j6e3b974fsfb062bc665673999@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello! * Blank Noise *is participating in *Street Art ,Street Life at the Bronx Museum of Arts*. Blank Noise is presenting *Moments of a Long Pause*, a video installation based on interviews with many men and women across five cities in India. The 2 channel video attempts to understand how both men and women approach eve teasing and street sexual violence in their daily lives. The show begins on *Sept 14th from noon to 6 pm* *and is on until the 25th of January.* You could also confirm on facebook: http://www.new.facebook.com/editevent.php?picture&eid=24312104661&new&m=1#/event.php?eid=24312104661 We hope to see you there! *Blank Noise Team * > * We thank the Bronx Museum for their support towards the making of this work. **We also thank Akademie Schloss Solitude and Ashoka Innovators for Public.* * * -- http:blog.blanknoise.org http:blanknoiseactionheroes.blogspot.com mob: 0091 98868 40612 -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From iram at sarai.net Sat Sep 13 11:07:12 2008 From: iram at sarai.net (Iram Ghufran) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 11:07:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Fwd: September 26: Critical Mass Cycling Event in Delhi Message-ID: <48CB5188.2000308@sarai.net> Fwd: ============================================== Subject: September 26: Critical Mass Cycling Event in Delhi From: vivek at sarai.net To: announcements at sarai.net For those who will be in Delhi-- please support and make this as diverse and wide-ranging as possible... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_Mass Friday, September 26, 2008 Time: 6:00pm - 7:00pm Location: Vijay Chowk Street: Near the Parliament House City/Town: New Delhi, India "Please join the first ever Delhi Critical Mass cycling event. We will assemble at Vijay Chowk between 6:00 and 6:30 and ride through streets of Delhi for about 45 minutes. The idea is to make a statement that cyclists should be given their due respect by other road users. Critical Mass is an event held in almost all major cities of the world, usually on the last Friday of every month, wherein a mass of cyclists ride through the streets of the city. The peak hour bicycle ride gives the subtle message to our fellow road users that we too exist. Please give this event the maximum publicity and lets make it a success by ensuring maximum participation. Let us show the city that cyclists of Delhi will demand their rightful place on the streets of Delhi. Let us celebrate cycling!" ================================================== _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From santhosh.kanipayur at gmail.com Fri Sep 12 11:02:38 2008 From: santhosh.kanipayur at gmail.com (Santhosh Kumar) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 11:02:38 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] ViBGYOR 2009 announcement Message-ID: <19d498870809112232k12334643o2aa8f3a3479a9456@mail.gmail.com> Mazhavilmela 4th ViBGYOR International Film Festival Thrissur, February 4-8, 2009 Regional Theatre Campus, Thrissur *celebrating identities and diversity*** We are most happy to announce the 4th Edition of *ViBGYOR Short and Documentary Film Festival*, which will be held from February 4th to 8th, 2009 in Thrissur, Kerala, India. It is a non-competitive film festival held every year in Kerala for the past three years. Documentary, Short Films, Music Videos, Animation, Spots and Experimental films are screened in the Festival. Films of following categories screened there. * * *ViBGYOR Theme Packages* ' Gender and Sexuality ' Dalit Reality ' Indigenous People ' Globalisation ' Nation State ' Fundamentalism v/s Diversity ' Region Focus –*Pakistan* * * *Every year there is a theme as Focus of the year on which a National seminar is conducted and a substantial number of films are screened. This year, * * * *Focus of the Year: Food** * The 5-day Festival is not just a treat of brilliant films on social, political, development and environmental issues, but a meeting place for filmmakers, social activists, film buffs and media students and a campaign space for people's movements as well. It is *an initiative of* the *ViBGYOR Film Collective*, which is an open coalition of various networks and groups, representing indigenous people, dalits, youth, and sexual minorities and addressing issues of war, conflict and peace, human rights, environment and development, culture and media and globalization. * * *ViBGYOR is organized by* Chetana Media Institute, Nottam Traveling Film Festival, Navachitra Film Society, CenSE, GAIA, Moving Republic, Visual Search and others For more information, log on www.vibgyorfilm.com Or contact 9447000830/9446529991/0487-2330830, Email: vibgyorfilmfest at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From iram at sarai.net Sat Sep 13 11:10:40 2008 From: iram at sarai.net (Iram Ghufran) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 11:10:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Fwd: 3rd International Film Water Film Festival In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48CB5258.4070703@sarai.net> FWD: > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: > "Water Journeys" > Date: > 12 Sep 2008 15:02:46 -0000 > To: > "waterjourneys" > > To: > "waterjourneys" > > > > > The first wave of the seven > > is the by far the most graceful of them all, > > somewhere between a giggle and a puddle, > > gliding a smile, breaking softly at her toe.(just beneath the hemlines > of her Navajo skirt) > > The first wave of the seven, > > Beguiles me so, > > After the lash of the mighty seventh, > > it channels the moon and proclaims itself, the infinite eight. > > and Splash, it goes. (just beneath the hemlines of her Navajo skirt) > > - Brand Grange (Sand in my Pockets) > > > > > > Voices from the Waters 2008 > > 3rd International Film Water Film Festival > > 13th to 18th September, 2008 > > Jnana Jyothi Auditorium, Central College Campus, Palac e Rd, > > Near Mysore Bank Circle, Bangalore- 560 001. > > > > BANGALORE FILM SOCIETY (BFS), ARGHYAM, SVARAJ - Society for Voluntary > Action Revitalization and Justice, BANGALORE UNIVERSITY, The Alliance > Française de Bangalore, The Goethe-Institut / Max Mueller Bhavan > Bangalore, MOUNTAINFILM IN TELLURIDE, WATER JOURNEYS, Charter of Human > Responsibilities, IRCSA - International Rainwater Catchment Systems > Association, and Finger Lakes Environmental Film Festival at Ithaca > College (FLEFF) > > INVITE YOU TO > > > THE GRAND INAUGURAL > > 13th September 2008 > > 5.00om onwards.... > > > > Invocation: > > > > Raga of River Narmada > > Dir: Rajendra Janglay > > Inauguration: > > Floating of the Lamps by- > > > > Shekhar Kapoor > > Kavitha Lankesh > > > > Inaugural Film > > The Rising Wave > > Dir: Shweta Kishore & Yask Desai > > > > For all further details contact: > > www.voicesfromthewaters.com (schedule, synopsis, history & precise > geography) > > bangalorefilmsociety at gmail.com > > Tel: 9886213516/ 25493705 > > Admission is free. > (Audience is encouraged to break all boundaries, roles, spaces and > most importantly, rules. Like ol’ Brad Grange, troubadour & arch mr. > mischief puts it so well - Splash, it goes.) > > Campaign for the fundamental right to water, > C/o No.33/1-9, Thyagaraj Layout, > Jai Bharath Nagar, > Maruthisevanagar P.O, > Bangalore-560 033. > > "If there is magic on this planet, it is contained in water" - Loran > Eisley > > > > > _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From taraprakash at gmail.com Sat Sep 13 20:35:31 2008 From: taraprakash at gmail.com (TaraPrakash) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 11:05:31 -0400 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?The_hunt_for_the_Indian_Mujahideen?= =?windows-1252?q?=92s_=91al-Arbi=92?= Message-ID: The prophetic last line of this article published in Hindu on Saturday did not take time to materialize. The organization concerned, according to a mail received by several tv channels just before blasts in Delhi, punished us for our sins again that very evening. The hunt for the Indian Mujahideen’s ‘al-Arbi’ Praveen Swami -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A profile of the top bomb-maker Abdul Subhan Qureshi. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Less than forty eight hours before over thirty bombs tore Ahmedabad apart in July, Abdul Subhan Usman Qureshi caught an overnight train to Mumbai — and disappeared. Police forces across India, backed by the Intelligence Bureau, have made the hunt for the short, thin built man who the Ahmedabad bombers knew by the code-name ‘Kasim’, their top priority. Based on the interrogation of Shahbaz Husain, a Lucknow businessman alleged to have led the cell responsible for a string of urban bombings carried out by a Students Islamic Movement of India front organisation calling itself the Indian Mujahideen, investigators are now certain that Qureshi trained the bomb-makers who fabricated the bombs used in the terror offensive. Qureshi, police believe, was also the “al-Arbi” who signed e-mail manifestos issued by the Indian Mujahideen after each bombing — a finding supported by forensic detectives, who have determined that the rounded-‘A’ which “al-Arabi” used to sign the documents matches the rendering of the same character in his personal correspondence. Against the grain The story of SIMI’s top bomb-maker sits ill with the narrative often used to explain why Islamist terrorism has grown in India. Qureshi studied at a secular school, not a seminary. He, unlike many inner-city Muslims, enjoyed access to both education and economic opportunity. Most important, Qureshi’s political radicalisation seems not to have been connected to the win poles that marked the growth the jihad in India, the demolition of the Babri Masjid and the 2002 communal pogrom in Gujarat. Like many first-generation working-class migrants to Mumbai, Qureshi’s parents—who hailed from Rampur in Uttar Pradesh—took education seriously. Qureshi graduated from the Antonio DeSouza High School, a church-run institution which caters to children from all major religious communities in 1988, securing a more-than-reasonable secondary school certificate average of 76.6 per cent. Interestingly, Qureshi’s parents offered all their children access to educational opportunity — not just, as is common among religious conservatives, the boys. Qureshi’s sisters, Asma and Safia, have Masters of Arts degrees; none of his three brothers, who also well-educated, appear to have been drawn to SIMI or other Islamist groups. In the autumn of 1992 — months before Mumbai was hit by a murderous Shiv Sena-led communal pogrom which followed the demolition of the Babri Masjid — Qureshi began studies at the Bharatiya Vidyapeeth in Navi Mumbai. Neither the communal pogrom, nor the serial bombings which followed them, appear to have directly touched Qureshi’s life. In 1995, he obtained a diploma in industrial electronics, and landed a part-time job at String Computers in Mazgaon. Later, in 1996, he went on to earn a specialised software maintenance qualification from the CMS Institute in Marol. Armed with these qualifications, Qureshi had little difficulty finding work. He joined Radical Solutions, an independent computer firm operating out of the upmarket Fort area in south Mumbai in November, 1996, on a starting salary of Rs. 2,450 per month. By the accounts of his co-workers, Qureshi was an exceptional worker — an assessment that is borne out by his resume. Just three years into his professional life, Qureshi succeeded in quadrupling his pay. He handled several major independent projects, including an intranet implementation for Bharat Petro-Chemicals carried out by Wipro in 1999, and then landed a job with computer major Datamatics. But then, Qureshi suddenly decided to leave in his job. In his March 26, 2001, letter, he offered the firm only “I wish to inform you,” the letter read, “that I have decided to devote one complete year to pursue religious and spiritual matters.” Qureshi’s friends and family claim to have no knowledge of what led him to make the decision. His family claims not to have met since SIMI was proscribed later that year. This seems improbable: Qureshi’s youngest child, with his wife Aafia, is, after all, just two and a half years old. A career in terror Mumbai police investigators have begun to reconstruct Qureshi’s career in terror. No one is certain just how he was recruited, but by 1998, Qureshi appears to have been a committed SIMI activist. He was charged, that year, with defacing public property, by pasting SIMI posters. Later, he went on to edit one of SIMI’s house-magazines, Islamic Voice, from New Delhi. Police sources told The Hindu that Qureshi participated in the October, 1999, SIMI conference in October, 1999. Sheikh Yasin, the head of the Palestinian Hamas and the Pakistan Jamaat-e-Islamic chief Qazi Husain Ahmad, were among those who delivered speeches, through telephone links. Seven-year-old Gulrez Siddiqui was reported to have been trotted out in front of the estimated 20,000-strong crowd to read out this couplet: “Islam ka ghazi, butshikan, Mera sher, Osama bin Laden” (Warrior for Islam, destroyer of idols / My lion, Osama bin Laden)”. SIMI’s growing links with the global jihadist movement became increasingly clear in the months and years that followed. In January, 2000, for example, police in West Bengal arrested Chinese national Abdul Rahman just after he crossed the Bahirhat border with Bangaldesh. Investigators learned that Rahman, who had escaped from a prison in China’s Xinjiang region where he had been serving time for the murder of a police officer, had been brought to India to train Lashkar-e-Taiba operatives. His handlers Aziz-ul-Haq and Nazrul Islam were both SIMI members. Later, in May, 2001, eight SIMI members involved in an abortive plot to bomb the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh’s headquarters in Nagpur were found to have trained with the Hizb ul-Mujahideen in Jammu and Kashmir. By the time of SIMI’s 1999 Aurangabad convention, which Qureshi is believed to have helped organise, many of the speeches delivered by delegates were frankly inflammatory. “Islam is our nation, not India,” thundered Mohammad Amir Shakeel Ahmad, one of over a dozen SIMI-linked Lashkar operatives arrested in 2005 for smuggling in military-grade explosives and assault rifles for a planned series of attacks in Gujarat. Among those listening to the speech was Mohammad Azam Ghauri, one of the co-founders of the Lashkar’s India operations. Ghauri, some SIMI members present in Aurangabad say, was offered SIMI’s leadership, but refused. Qureshi was, investigators say, one of the principal organisers of SIMI’s last public conference in 2001. SIMI leaders told the estimated 25,000 followers who attended the conference that the time had come for Indian Muslims to launch an armed jihad which would have the establishment of a caliphate at its final aim. In the wake of the attack on the World Trade Centre in New York in September, 2001, SIMI activists organised demonstrations attacking the United States of America for being an “enemy of Islam.” SIMI literature hailed Osama as a “true mujahid [Islamic warrior]” and celebrated the demolition of the Bamiyan Buddhas by the Taliban. Muslims were exhorted to “trample the infidels.” Finding Qureshi — as well as figures like Qayamuddin Kapadia, the missing Vadodara based computer-graphics artist who police believe led the SIMI cell which targeted Surat — could prove key to preventing the next big terror bombings. But the threat will not end with his arrest. Investigations of other SIMI-linked terror cells have thrown up evidence which suggests Qureshi trained several hundred recent recruits to the Islamist group’s terror cells, at camps held across India from 2007 onwards. India, it seems probable, will be compelled to live with this threat for many years to come. From kaksanjay at gmail.com Sat Sep 13 23:13:46 2008 From: kaksanjay at gmail.com (Sanjay Kak) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 23:13:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Azadi We Need Message-ID: <5c5369880809131043i178f0b7aida91ec46b2ee3e62@mail.gmail.com> Thanks, Jeebesh, for posting Umair Ahmed Muhajir's piece "The Azadi We Need" http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20080904&fname=umair&sid=1 The Sarai list has robustly reflected the recent revival of interest in the idea of Kashmir's Azadi, and I think many of us would be in synch with the despair reflected in Muhajir's understanding of the monstrous contours of the modern nation state, especially as it has unfolded in our part of the world–India, Pakistan, Bangladesh... What I do not share is the certainity with which he–like many writers in recent weeks both here and in other public forums in India–have visualised a possible Azad Kashmir. Perhaps because few in Kashmir have been able to spell out their vision, our assumptions have flooded in and filled the space. One of these is that Azadi necessarily means an Islamic Nation. Certainly there are pointers from some of the political leaders of the movement that this may be the idea. Syed Ali Shah Geelani has spoken of the centrality of Islam in his vision, and no doubt there are other elements in the Hurriyat that would concur. (Although even here it is an open question what their Islamic role model is: Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Malaysia, Syria, Qatar? Or another: Kashmir,) But surely it cannot be the case that what Geelani says, or what elements of the Hurriyat hint at can be taken as conclusive in our understanding of the aspirations for Azadi? (Especially when most people who draw these conclusions are also the first to question the representative character of Geelani or the Hurriyat!) Our discussions of where Kashmir is headed is already moving so giddily ahead of the state of play, that sometimes I get the sensation that these are not really conversations about Kashmir, and the abominable situation there, but really about our anxieties about ourselves. (Here I use "our" for those of whose of us who do not see ourselves as Kashmiris–so Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, whoever.) Let us for a moment ignore the hardliners in the public discourse, the G Parthasarathy, K Subrahmanyam, Harish Khare (and for comic relief, Jaitirath Rao) line on Kashmir. (In a nutshell: fry them). Let's turn to the liberal discourse, where however sophisticated the language, and however much sympathy for the "ordinary Kashmiri" is evoked, the main preoccupation seems to be around what a possible Azad Kashmir–one which wears it Muslim majority and its Islamic character on its sleeve–will do to the idea of Indian secularism, to Indian democracy, and to India's Muslims. In India, for example, the failure to fulfill the aspirations of a Secular, Socialist, Democratic Republic that We The People were promised, seem to hinge entirely on whether or not Kashmir continues to be part of India... How fragile is this notion of the Secular Socialist Democracy that it hinges entirely on a part of the map that has never enthusiastically embraced the geographical entity that bounds that ideal! So too in Muhajir's otherwise excellent discussion of the Nation State, Kashmir is only the peg upon which the larger anxiety hangs. I tended to read his piece as a lament about the failure of our nations to meet the aspirations of our decolonising imaginations. About what he calls the Azadi We Need. To say, as Muhajir does, that "the idea of an independent Kashmir for Kashmiris must be resisted precisely because, as the experience of the once-colonised has amply illustrated, nation-states are appallingly inhuman" is a suggestion of some casual brutality. And when he says that "nothing in the Kashmiri independence movement suggests that it will throw up anything different; indeed given that the movement aims at a traditional nation-state just like all the others, I submit that it cannot yield a different result", I can only wonder at his certainity of what the movement aims at. He is asking us not just to doubt, or raise a red-flag of warning, but to "resist" because he believes that an Independent Kashmir may turn into the monster with the big floppy ears and the sharp tusks? Remember the Six Blind Men of Hindustan, and the Elephant? Because in the absence of democracy, in the absence of free and fearless politics, and in the presence of a quite monstrous apparatus of occupation, none of us can as yet lay claim to saying that we know what the movement aims at. The discomfort with the Nation State is a valid one. If indeed there are those within the movement who casually think of such an entity, then they would do well to make themselves familiar with the arguments Mohajir assembles against it. But for the vast majority of people in the valley, the idea of Azadi does not as yet have such elaborate contours. It still means removing the Army, bringing back some elementary dignity into everyday life. We can lay the charge at the door of the Separatist leadership that they have failed to start that conversation about what Kashmir could be like. But before we "resist" the idea of Azadi we–and here I speak of Indians–must also take on board our complicity in a system that has not allowed any form of genuine democratic process to emerge in Kashmir, not just since 1989 when the armed conflict broke out, but for at least three decades before that. And what if, in the absence of another workable alternative that they can come up with, or indeed we can offer them, they still choose the tattered and torn robes of the Nation State? Will we say to them that their struggle is meaningless, their suffering inconsequential, the repression they have dealt with somehow appropriate? Because they don't understand the perils of the Nation State they must cease to resist? In recent weeks, one can see the furry edges of the Establishment fluffing up in defence of old atrophied positions. Forget the Intelligence Bureau plants and the Home Ministry hand-outs. Academics Sumit Ganguly and Kanti Bajpai, separately and together, placed a series of articles all over the national and international media that set up a sort of Qualifying Standard to Permit Secession. Minimally you are required to say Yes to the following: Genocide? Ethnic flooding? Major human rights violations? Since India has fallen short on all counts, they aver, with only 70,000 dead, and No Major human rights violations, the Standard is not met . Sorry then. No case for Azadi. Who set up this Gold Standard, and who calibrates it? While it is not my intention to place Muhajir's arguments on the same shelf as the Hawks and the Hawks-in-Dove-feathers, I bring them together because collectively they serve the same end-result: "This may not end up the way WE want it, so lets just wait and watch". That was the position that British Liberals could well have taken in the years before Independence: hand over India to the Hindu Mahasabha? The Muslim League? To Gandhi?. Better a part of Empire than to allow India to destroy itself under the weight of its own contradictions. That has been the position of liberal Indians for at least twenty–if not sixty–years. Frozen in a rigor mortis of wilful ignorance, political correctness, and theoretical purity. This may not be The Azadi They Need. Sanjay Kak From shuddha at sarai.net Sun Sep 14 03:18:17 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 03:18:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] From Delhi after Bombings Message-ID: <7C6074A3-C3E5-41AB-AC2E-F09BDED017A3@sarai.net> Driving through the city of New Delhi after midnight, in the early hours of the 13th of September, one could mistake the eerie calm in the broad avenues that skirt the hollow centre of Lutyens Delhi as the lull of a city tranquil and asleep to itself and the world. Normally, when I drive late, I am stopped at least twice, by gentlemen of the Delhi police, ('With us, for us, always') with torches, who peer into my face, and sometimes ask to see some ID. Tonight, a few hours after 5 bombs ripped through New Delhi's crowded markets and public spaces, claiming (at the last count) 30 lives, while the city, and indeed the country, was placed on 'Red Alert', the police barricades did not obstruct my night journey. A few police cars crawled a few curbs, cruising, idling. There was nothing more eerie than this strange lull after the storm. Perhaps they were at the city's borders. Perhaps they were at hospitals and bomb sites, perhaps they were kicking down a few doors, finding a few men to exhibit for the morning edition of the newspapers. Perhaps they were doing nothing. I was left alone to find may way home, through a strangely silent city, and that solitude and silence produced a random strand of thoughts that I would like to share with you all today. Terror has a strange banality. It strikes at its victims without discrimination. It snuffs out lives, dismembers limbs, breaks bones and punch through the face of everyday without thought or care. Terror does not care whether you are a patriot or a renegade, a traitor or a loyalist, a bomb has no way of knowing which way your heart inclines in the matter of fealty to the state. It simply kills, without favour, without prejudice, without qualms. Remote terror has a greater, even more chilling banality. And the remotest terror of all is the kind that gets exercised by mandarins who dictate the agendas that footsoldiers execute, often without a clear sense of who it is that directs the hand that primes the timer that sets off the bomb. Sometimes, in this shadow play, the state and the 'would be state' meld into a strange non-entity, a non-person who disappears into shadows, only to find a biography or a precociously premature obituary in the column inches of a journalist who also doubles up as a counter insurgent. (I think that the apparently 'oracular' piece written by Praveen Swami this morning in the Hindu that was forwarded to this list by is a very interesting instance of the above) What makes terrorism, which is only a sub-branch of modern warfare particularly lethal is the distance between the bomber and his or her victims (including the paradoxical distance and intimacy of the suicide bomber, who embraces as well as obliterates his or her victim) This distance creates an ethical parallax error - a blurring of the kind of distinction that makes us value the the particularity of each life - such that lives cease to matter and all that begins to matter is a kind of pornography of the quantity of casualties, with twenty dead producing the paradox of a more acute numbness and arousal than sixteen would. This is what makes a great deal of news television the kind of pornography that I actually find degrading. Far more degrading than the honest and often wholesome tittilation offered by the erotic acrobats of porn. We will see a lot of news-porn in the days to come. Arousals will be offered on the cheap by patriotic politicians ranting against terror. Narendra Modi's skin will glow with the shine that only an 'I told you so' can bring on. Bal Gangadhar Tilak, (after whom avenues and bridges are named in our beloved Capital city) patriot, steadfast Indian nationalist, and erudite aficionado of the bomb, loved the Bhagavad Gita, and particularly its exhortation to give effect to a 'dispassionate violence', one that unites the slayer and the slain in a single stroke of moral equivalence for a higher purpose - na hanyate, hanyamane sharire (there is no slayer, there is no slain) - because for him, it brought about a fine tuned karmic resolution of the messy details of whether or not life was lost for the sake of a cause. To him, like to many nationalists, the cult of the bomb, was not simply a means to an end, it was the end because it produced the circumstances for a blooding, a sacrifice, in a manner conducive to the purposes of the nation, or the nation-in-waiting. Blood irrigated the nation. It continues to do so. It is easy for those who today rail against terrorism to forget that some of their heroes in fact championed terrorism. There is something inevitable about the fact that yesterday's 'terrorist' always ends up as tomorrow's 'freedom fighter'. Tilak writes, - (I am grateful to a citation of this remarkable passage from his works in a recent lecture delivered by Christopher Pinney on the iconography of Indian Nationalism at the School of Arts and Aesthetics at JNU) "The Bomb is not a thing like Muskets or Guns, it is a simple sport of science. Muskets or guns may be taken away from the subjects by the means of the 'Arms Act', and the manufacture, too of guns and muskets without the permission of the government may be stopped, but is it possible to stop or do away with the bomb by means of laws or the supervision of officials or the busy swarming of the detective police? The bomb has more the form of a knowledge, it is a (kind of) witchcraft, it is a charm, an amulet. It has not much the features of a visible object manufactured in a big factory. Big factories are necessary for the bombs required by the military forces of Government. But not much in the way of materials is necessary to prepare for five or ten bombs required by violent turn-headed persons. Virendra's big factory of bombs (was stored) in one or two jars and five or ten bottles." [ From - 'These Remedies are Not Lasting' by Bal Gangadhar Tilak, published in The Kesari, Poona, 9th June 1908, cited in "Full and Authentic Report of the Tilak Trial (1908) being the only Authorized Verbatim Account of the Whole Proceedings with Introduction and Character Sketh of Bal Gangadhar Tilak together with Press Opinion" by N.C. Kelkar, (Poona, 1908) ] The bomb is a peculiar form of arcane urban knowledge. it is made by those who know how. It is placed by people who have secret agendas, lead illegible lives, and often operate within the zones of ambiguity where there are neither friend nor enemies, only assets and liabilities. This simple sport of science, which can be played with a few jars of the right chemicals, has only one goal. Whosoever plays, there is only one winner, and that is the state. Every time a bomb goes off, the repressive apparatus of the state gets another big rush of adrenalin. Terror and State Terror need and feed each other. Sometimes, they are each other. As this city that I live in and love and hate crosses the turbulence of a night still acrid with the smell of ammonium nitrate and cordite, I can only hope that the days to come will offer us a few rationed portions of respite. Each time an anonymous purveyor of terror closes a deal, he (and its mainly he isn't it) spreads out a doormat welcoming state-terror to come and claim its victory. Whosoever plants bombs in dustbins, in busy market places, whatsoever be their motive, their cause, their sick and hollow dream of heaven, all that they do is to make the state stronger, more repulsive, more bloated. The terrorist is the best footsoldier that the state can ever have. And the most terrible thing is, not every footsoldier is a mercenary. Sometimes, knowingly or unknowingly, a 'freedom fighter' is the best asset that his antagonist can ever hope to possess. And that is why terror, in whatever form, for whatever reason, is pathetic, sad, and really ugly. it leaves us restless at night and listless by day. It excites our fear and enervates our hope. It leaves us empty, hollow and full of dread. It eats into and corrupts the simplest of conversations about freedom, leaving ugly scars of suspicion. Terror requires only one response - total rejection, especially from those interested in fighting the daily depredations of the state. From supreet.sethi at gmail.com Sun Sep 14 09:46:31 2008 From: supreet.sethi at gmail.com (s|s) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 09:46:31 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Delhi University gets ABVP president after 8 years/reader-list Digest, Vol 62, Issue 35 In-Reply-To: References: <98f331e00809111254w4ffe9d25paa76634256c3d4c1@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690809112114y44394608h13082b6c0110dd4b@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809120756k3a343c83g69a67431c04031c1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: A government given largess of reservation is not going change society. It will not, I am sorry to say, change the way we think. I distinctly remember doing this oil/water experiment. Where we use different colored fluids and try to mix by shaking or turning container around. What we do through reservation is possibly that? Finally tremors will come to rest. May be what was up, comes down and visa versa. But two liquids remain separate. Merit or no merit, reservation has created more fissures in social terrain than mending any. More voilence is perpetrated because of perceived favoritism while the reservation itself does not create enough economic traction to uplift the deprived. We have been seeing that for 30 years. The whole Gujjar, Meena affair is a case in point. I am not against reservation, but the way government is going about it is unique and unprecedented. Its ability to change society questionable. It might win them an election. But from my point of view, this is clearly subversion of democracy. Mockery of everything we stand for as republican a democracy. As affirmative actions what we really, I hope, want to provide young individual of every caste is social mobility. That will not come about by giving that individual a job as a clerk in some government office and 10,570 Rs. a month to take home to his Dalit family. Maybe they fetch more, in case they get into AIIMS, even more in case they pass through IAS. But the label still remains, stuck from a generation to another. The stratified society, in my opinion changes by inter-caste marriages. If there are bonds of love between castes, you will feel pain if something happens to your relative. Otherwise one part of society could disappear and nobody will lament. Oh some PhD proposals might become unfashionable but thats about it. -- ~preet~ From nandini.c.sen at gmail.com Sun Sep 14 10:38:01 2008 From: nandini.c.sen at gmail.com (Nandini Sen) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 10:38:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?The_hunt_for_the_Indian_Mujahideen?= =?windows-1252?q?=92s_=91al-Arbi=92?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6581f1af0809132208x417d50fcycc1d1e805e6061c0@mail.gmail.com> It's the most unfortunate incident ever. Even an incredibly peace loving person like me is feeling cheated at being forced to live a life where terrorism and our acceptance of it has become a part of our lives. I saw the Naseeruddin Shah starrer "A Wednesday". Is it time for the common man to take the law in his own hands? It's a scary thought but if the terror activities don't cease, it might well become a reality. Regards, Nandini On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 8:35 PM, TaraPrakash wrote: > The prophetic last line of this article published in Hindu on Saturday did > not take time to materialize. The organization concerned, according to a > mail received by several tv channels just before blasts in Delhi, punished > us for our sins again that very evening. > > > > > > The hunt for the Indian Mujahideen's 'al-Arbi' > > > > Praveen Swami > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > A profile of the top bomb-maker Abdul Subhan Qureshi. > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Less than forty eight hours before over thirty bombs tore Ahmedabad apart > in July, Abdul Subhan Usman Qureshi caught an overnight train to Mumbai — > and > disappeared. > > > > Police forces across India, backed by the Intelligence Bureau, have made > the hunt for the short, thin built man who the Ahmedabad bombers knew by the > code-name > 'Kasim', their top priority. > > > > Based on the interrogation of Shahbaz Husain, a Lucknow businessman alleged > to have led the cell responsible for a string of urban bombings carried out > by a Students Islamic Movement of India front organisation calling itself > the Indian Mujahideen, investigators are now certain that Qureshi trained > the > bomb-makers who fabricated the bombs used in the terror offensive. > > > > Qureshi, police believe, was also the "al-Arbi" who signed e-mail > manifestos issued by the Indian Mujahideen after each bombing — a finding > supported by > forensic detectives, who have determined that the rounded-'A' which > "al-Arabi" used to sign the documents matches the rendering of the same > character in > his personal correspondence. > > > > Against the grain > > > > The story of SIMI's top bomb-maker sits ill with the narrative often used > to explain why Islamist terrorism has grown in India. > > > > Qureshi studied at a secular school, not a seminary. He, unlike many > inner-city Muslims, enjoyed access to both education and economic > opportunity. Most > important, Qureshi's political radicalisation seems not to have been > connected to the win poles that marked the growth the jihad in India, the > demolition > of the Babri Masjid and the 2002 communal pogrom in Gujarat. > > > > Like many first-generation working-class migrants to Mumbai, Qureshi's > parents—who hailed from Rampur in Uttar Pradesh—took education seriously. > > > > Qureshi graduated from the Antonio DeSouza High School, a church-run > institution which caters to children from all major religious communities in > 1988, > securing a more-than-reasonable secondary school certificate average of > 76.6 per cent. Interestingly, Qureshi's parents offered all their children > access > to educational opportunity — not just, as is common among religious > conservatives, the boys. Qureshi's sisters, Asma and Safia, have Masters of > Arts degrees; > none of his three brothers, who also well-educated, appear to have been > drawn to SIMI or other Islamist groups. > > > > In the autumn of 1992 — months before Mumbai was hit by a murderous Shiv > Sena-led communal pogrom which followed the demolition of the Babri Masjid — > Qureshi > began studies at the Bharatiya Vidyapeeth in Navi Mumbai. Neither the > communal pogrom, nor the serial bombings which followed them, appear to have > directly > touched Qureshi's life. In 1995, he obtained a diploma in industrial > electronics, and landed a part-time job at String Computers in Mazgaon. > Later, in > 1996, he went on to earn a specialised software maintenance qualification > from the CMS Institute in Marol. > > > > Armed with these qualifications, Qureshi had little difficulty finding > work. He joined Radical Solutions, an independent computer firm operating > out of > the upmarket Fort area in south Mumbai in November, 1996, on a starting > salary of Rs. 2,450 per month. By the accounts of his co-workers, Qureshi > was an > exceptional worker — an assessment that is borne out by his resume. Just > three years into his professional life, Qureshi succeeded in quadrupling his > pay. > He handled several major independent projects, including an intranet > implementation for Bharat Petro-Chemicals carried out by Wipro in 1999, and > then landed > a job with computer major Datamatics. > > > > But then, Qureshi suddenly decided to leave in his job. In his March 26, > 2001, letter, he offered the firm only "I wish to inform you," the letter > read, > "that I have decided to devote one complete year to pursue religious and > spiritual matters." > > > > Qureshi's friends and family claim to have no knowledge of what led him to > make the decision. His family claims not to have met since SIMI was > proscribed > later that year. This seems improbable: Qureshi's youngest child, with his > wife Aafia, is, after all, just two and a half years old. > > > > A career in terror > > > > Mumbai police investigators have begun to reconstruct Qureshi's career in > terror. No one is certain just how he was recruited, but by 1998, Qureshi > appears > to have been a committed SIMI activist. He was charged, that year, with > defacing public property, by pasting SIMI posters. Later, he went on to edit > one > of SIMI's house-magazines, Islamic Voice, from New Delhi. > > > > Police sources told The Hindu that Qureshi participated in the October, > 1999, SIMI conference in October, 1999. Sheikh Yasin, the head of the > Palestinian > Hamas and the Pakistan Jamaat-e-Islamic chief Qazi Husain Ahmad, were among > those who delivered speeches, through telephone links. Seven-year-old Gulrez > Siddiqui was reported to have been trotted out in front of the estimated > 20,000-strong crowd to read out this couplet: "Islam ka ghazi, butshikan, > Mera > sher, Osama bin Laden" (Warrior for Islam, destroyer of idols / My lion, > Osama bin Laden)". > > > > SIMI's growing links with the global jihadist movement became increasingly > clear in the months and years that followed. In January, 2000, for example, > police > in West Bengal arrested Chinese national Abdul Rahman just after he crossed > the Bahirhat border with Bangaldesh. Investigators learned that Rahman, who > had escaped from a prison in China's Xinjiang region where he had been > serving time for the murder of a police officer, had been brought to India > to train > Lashkar-e-Taiba operatives. His handlers Aziz-ul-Haq and Nazrul Islam were > both SIMI members. Later, in May, 2001, eight SIMI members involved in an > abortive > plot to bomb the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh's headquarters in Nagpur were > found to have trained with the Hizb ul-Mujahideen in Jammu and Kashmir. > > > > By the time of SIMI's 1999 Aurangabad convention, which Qureshi is believed > to have helped organise, many of the speeches delivered by delegates were > frankly > inflammatory. "Islam is our nation, not India," thundered Mohammad Amir > Shakeel Ahmad, one of over a dozen SIMI-linked Lashkar operatives arrested > in 2005 > for smuggling in military-grade explosives and assault rifles for a planned > series of attacks in Gujarat. Among those listening to the speech was > Mohammad > Azam Ghauri, one of the co-founders of the Lashkar's India operations. > Ghauri, some SIMI members present in Aurangabad say, was offered SIMI's > leadership, > but refused. > > > > Qureshi was, investigators say, one of the principal organisers of SIMI's > last public conference in 2001. SIMI leaders told the estimated 25,000 > followers > who attended the conference that the time had come for Indian Muslims to > launch an armed jihad which would have the establishment of a caliphate at > its > final aim. > > > > In the wake of the attack on the World Trade Centre in New York in > September, 2001, SIMI activists organised demonstrations attacking the > United States > of America for being an "enemy of Islam." SIMI literature hailed Osama as a > "true mujahid [Islamic warrior]" and celebrated the demolition of the > Bamiyan > Buddhas by the Taliban. Muslims were exhorted to "trample the infidels." > > > > Finding Qureshi — as well as figures like Qayamuddin Kapadia, the missing > Vadodara based computer-graphics artist who police believe led the SIMI cell > which > targeted Surat — could prove key to preventing the next big terror > bombings. But the threat will not end with his arrest. Investigations of > other SIMI-linked > terror cells have thrown up evidence which suggests Qureshi trained several > hundred recent recruits to the Islamist group's terror cells, at camps held > across India from 2007 onwards. > > > > India, it seems probable, will be compelled to live with this threat for > many years to come. > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Nandini C.Sen Senior Lecturer, Dept. of English. Bharati College. Delhi University. From shuddha at sarai.net Sun Sep 14 11:29:06 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 11:29:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] From Delhi after Bombings In-Reply-To: <7C6074A3-C3E5-41AB-AC2E-F09BDED017A3@sarai.net> References: <7C6074A3-C3E5-41AB-AC2E-F09BDED017A3@sarai.net> Message-ID: <27C6FBD6-DD18-482C-834C-6F243A8291EF@sarai.net> Dear all, Thanks to all those who have begun responding off list and on list to this post. In my bleary eyed early morning sleeplessness, I made a mistake about today's date in the body of the posting. The fragment that reads - 'in the early hours of the 13th of September' should obviously read, 'in the early hours of the 14th of September.' I think we should also remind ourselves that many precious lives were saved by the alertness of what the morning's newspapers chose to call 'rag-pickers'. These itinerant informal entrepreneurs of waste and residue (often so-called 'illegal' emigrants from Bangladesh) when they escape anonymity, are usually vilified as a shadowy, quasi- criminal, underclass who sniff glue, act as scouts for criminals and terrorists, and harbour all sorts of malingerers. The police regularly thrashes them, extorts money from them, and occasionally, a pious NGO or two will dignify those amongst them with a slightly firmer entitlement to 'legality' with 'Identity Cards' , so that the thrashings of the police can be a little softened from time to time. This only means that those with precarious claims to Indian citizenship, (those with an obviously east Bengali sibilance to their speech) get thrashed harder, setting off a mini civil war between the 'deserving' and the 'un-deserving' poor born of a triangulation of the enigma of Indian citizenship, NGO activism and the blunt edge of a regulation Delhi Police lathi. So here is a salute to all those called 'rag pickers' in Delhi, regardless of whether or not they can be decorated with the fig leaf of Indian citizenship. In the end, they have proved at least in this instance, that as far as saving lives are concerned, they do a better job than the police. regards, Shuddha On 14-Sep-08, at 3:18 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Driving through the city of New Delhi after midnight, in the early > hours of the 13th of September, one could mistake the eerie calm in > the broad avenues that skirt the hollow centre of Lutyens Delhi as > the lull of a city tranquil and asleep to itself and the world. > > From indersalim at gmail.com Sun Sep 14 13:20:57 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 13:20:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Azadi We Need In-Reply-To: <5c5369880809131043i178f0b7aida91ec46b2ee3e62@mail.gmail.com> References: <5c5369880809131043i178f0b7aida91ec46b2ee3e62@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70809140050m4c6c7171i8c5eca57459e2143@mail.gmail.com> History is a strange past. If Nepal was under British rule, Sardar Patel might have loved to begin the formation of Indian Union from there itself; and by now it might have been part of Uttaranchal, or just another state by the name Nepal District; with its erestwhile princes and kings drinking French wine at IIC. It is just a matter of chance that that did not happen. Instead of that we have a wonderful beginning in Nepal under a new leadership. India has no hesitation to recognise it, although the fact remains that Maoist ways of achieving it have been criticized by MEA in no other terms but Terrorism. J&K too was not part of British Rule in 1947. It is just a matter of chance that Kashmir could not achieve the status of a Free Nation that time. ( I know the word 'Nation' sounds shitty ). It had all the ingredients which Nepal had. The only difference, here is that Nepal had Hindus and Kashmir had Muslims. No one has an answer, what ruined the dream of Sheikh Modh. Abudlah, as Mr. Kak said that even now, "none of us can as yet lay claim to saying that we know what the movement aims at no one can say" . But still we don't know why Nepal is a free country and why Kashmir is not. We know dreams, after a while get blurred and the priorities shift. New things emerge, while history keeps on mocking at us, which intrigues me, sometimes very funnily. So, it is indeed difficult to write on Kashmir. It is, perhaps easy for those who a single line of action to offer, mainly those who are overtly nationalistic. After reading, Roy, Muhajir and then Sanjay, I feel that Kashmir is really a strange land. Something is surreal about the land. Its people, its past and history makes it unique. If one looks at the recent poetry of Kashmir in kashmiri, one can feel that its unique past is still reverberating in its veins, which is quite different from what is being written in urdu or in English. It is simply different. I imagine the constitution of a Free New Kashmir in Kashmiri. The language will itself oust the hardliners. The terrible face of Nation State too might soften. But as we know, fortunately or unfortunately, we are wedded to History which is known to all of us. But that is not all, most of us know that, but cant do much about that. History is the puzzle which we are actually trying to solve. The muslim character is Kashmir is simple a matter of fact and nothing beyond. And as Ronald Barthes writes, there is nothing which is called a matter of fact. SAS Geelani will disagree, but deep down, people in Kashmir want to celebrate life, not fundamentalism. People in Nepal too finally don't need a King or a declaration that Nepal is a Hindu State. Kashmir too can refurbish its true credentials. But as Shuddha, too said that fundamentalism and its terror tactics only strengthen the State. "The only winner is state". So paradoxically, our too much of attention on Muslim factor in Kashmir is making things worst for the core meaning of Kashmiriyat ( the word, prostituted by the State Machinery over the years, but I still use it, although there can be a Kashmiri equivalent to it, but let us preserve that for the proposed constitution, here, I hope, 'kashmirityat' would suffice ). But, the British ways of implementing partition made it impossible for us to see something other than a Hindu or a Muslim reality. We have a history, which is quite painful. And for the abscess of those inflicted wounds , we are still looking for British ( western ) anti-biotics, which heals but without a guarantee to heal it at the core. Kashmiris still have a chance to throw up an agenda which can be based on a simple understanding of its own poets and saints. They might succeeded where a great Hero like Sheikh Mohd Abudullh failed. If there is a movement, in Kashmir beyond the basic demand for removal of Security forces from Kashmir and restoration of dignity in the daily life, then it has to be based on some thought of civil society where people can talk, express freely and sit seriously to talk about the future of humanity on this earth. A simple aversion of Indian Tri colour will not lead to some long lasting results, as Ms. Roy also highlighted 'Doubt ' in her text on Azadi in Kashmir "Liberty has no refuge in the jurisprudence of doubt" I don't remember who said it, but it does speak about the necessity of doubt in the present, even if it means a delay for those who march on path of ' safray azadi'. To unravel the unpredictable of the present we have no other chance but to ' wait and watch' as Sanjay hinted. All calculations might collapse. I just am trying to emancipate myself more on the subject : Kahseer With love On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 11:13 PM, Sanjay Kak wrote: > Thanks, Jeebesh, for posting Umair Ahmed Muhajir's piece "The Azadi We Need" > http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20080904&fname=umair&sid=1 > > The Sarai list has robustly reflected the recent revival of interest in the > idea of Kashmir's Azadi, and I think many of us would be in synch with the > despair reflected in Muhajir's understanding of the monstrous contours of > the modern nation state, especially as it has unfolded in our part of the > world–India, Pakistan, Bangladesh... > > What I do not share is the certainity with which he–like many writers in > recent weeks both here and in other public forums in India–have visualised a > possible Azad Kashmir. Perhaps because few in Kashmir have been able to > spell out their vision, our assumptions have flooded in and filled the > space. One of these is that Azadi necessarily means an Islamic Nation. > Certainly there are pointers from some of the political leaders of the > movement that this may be the idea. Syed Ali Shah Geelani has spoken of the > centrality of Islam in his vision, and no doubt there are other elements in > the Hurriyat that would concur. (Although even here it is an open question > whattheir Islamic role model is: Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Malaysia, Syria, > Qatar? Or another: Kashmir,) But surely it cannot be the case that what > Geelani says, or what elements of the Hurriyat hint at can be taken as > conclusive in our understanding of the aspirations for Azadi? (Especially > when most people who draw these conclusions are also the first to question > the representative character of Geelani or the Hurriyat!) > > Our discussions of where Kashmir is headed is already moving so giddily > ahead of the state of play, that sometimes I get the sensation that these > are not really conversations about Kashmir, and the abominable situation > there, but really about our anxieties about ourselves. (Here I use "our" for > those of whose of us who do not see ourselves as Kashmiris–so Indians, > Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, whoever.) > > Let us for a moment ignore the hardliners in the public discourse, the G > Parthasarathy, K Subrahmanyam, Harish Khare (and for comic relief, Jaitirath > Rao) line on Kashmir. (In a nutshell: fry them). > Let's turn to the liberal discourse, where however sophisticated the > language, and however much sympathy for the "ordinary Kashmiri" is evoked, > the main preoccupation seems to be around what a possible Azad Kashmir–one > which wears it Muslim majority and its Islamic character on its sleeve–will > do to the idea of Indian secularism, to Indian democracy, and to India's > Muslims. In India, for example, the failure to fulfill the aspirations of a > Secular, Socialist, Democratic Republic that We The People were promised, > seem to hinge entirely on whether or not Kashmir continues to be part of > India... How fragile is this notion of the Secular Socialist Democracy that > it hinges entirely on a part of the map that has never enthusiastically > embraced the geographical entity that bounds that ideal! > > So too in Muhajir's otherwise excellent discussion of the Nation State, > Kashmir is only the peg upon which the larger anxiety hangs. I tended to > read his piece as a lament about the failure of our nations to meet the > aspirations of our decolonising imaginations. About what he calls the Azadi > We Need. > > To say, as Muhajir does, that "the idea of an independent Kashmir for > Kashmiris must be resisted precisely because, as the experience of the > once-colonised has amply illustrated, nation-states are appallingly inhuman" > is a suggestion of some casual brutality. And when he says that "nothing in > the Kashmiri independence movement suggests that it will throw up anything > different; indeed given that the movement aims at a traditional nation-state > just like all the others, I submit that it cannot yield a different result", > I can only wonder at his certainity of what the movement aims at. He is > asking us not just to doubt, or raise a red-flag of warning, but to "resist" > because he believes that an Independent Kashmir may turn into the monster > with the big floppy ears and the sharp tusks? Remember the Six Blind Men of > Hindustan, and the Elephant? > > Because in the absence of democracy, in the absence of free and fearless > politics, and in the presence of a quite monstrous apparatus of occupation, > none of us can as yet lay claim to saying that we know what the movement > aims at. > > The discomfort with the Nation State is a valid one. If indeed there are > those within the movement who casually think of such an entity, then they > would do well to make themselves familiar with the arguments Mohajir > assembles against it. But for the vast majority of people in the valley, the > idea of Azadi does not as yet have such elaborate contours. It still means > removing the Army, bringing back some elementary dignity into everyday life. > We can lay the charge at the door of the Separatist leadership that they > have failed to start that conversation about what Kashmir could be like. But > before we "resist" the idea of Azadi we–and here I speak of Indians–must > also take on board our complicity in a system that has not allowed any form > of genuine democratic process to emerge in Kashmir, not just since 1989 when > the armed conflict broke out, but for at least three decades before that. > > And what if, in the absence of another workable alternative that they can > come up with, or indeed we can offer them, they still choose the tattered > and torn robes of the Nation State? Will we say to them that their struggle > is meaningless, their suffering inconsequential, the repression they have > dealt with somehow appropriate? Because they don't understand the perils of > the Nation State they must cease to resist? > > In recent weeks, one can see the furry edges of the Establishment fluffing > up in defence of old atrophied positions. Forget the Intelligence Bureau > plants and the Home Ministry hand-outs. Academics Sumit Ganguly and Kanti > Bajpai, separately and together, placed a series of articles all over the > national and international media that set up a sort of Qualifying Standard > to Permit Secession. Minimally you are required to say Yes to the following: > Genocide? Ethnic flooding? Major human rights violations? Since India has > fallen short on all counts, they aver, with only 70,000 dead, and No Major > human rights violations, the Standard is not met . Sorry then. No case for > Azadi. > Who set up this Gold Standard, and who calibrates it? > > While it is not my intention to place Muhajir's arguments on the same shelf > as the Hawks and the Hawks-in-Dove-feathers, I bring them together because > collectively they serve the same end-result: "This may not end up the way WE > want it, so lets just wait and watch". > > That was the position that British Liberals could well have taken in the > years before Independence: hand over India to the Hindu Mahasabha? The > Muslim League? To Gandhi?. > Better a part of Empire than to allow India to destroy itself under the > weight of its own contradictions. > > That has been the position of liberal Indians for at least twenty–if not > sixty–years. Frozen in a rigor mortis of wilful ignorance, political > correctness, and theoretical purity. > > This may not be The Azadi They Need. > > Sanjay Kak > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From mahmood.farooqui at gmail.com Sun Sep 14 13:59:50 2008 From: mahmood.farooqui at gmail.com (mahmood farooqui) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 13:59:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Azadi We Need In-Reply-To: <5c5369880809131043i178f0b7aida91ec46b2ee3e62@mail.gmail.com> References: <5c5369880809131043i178f0b7aida91ec46b2ee3e62@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Sanjay, I share your concern about Umair's casal disengagement with the oppression in kashmir and with the liberationist impulse implicit in the kasmiri uprising. Yes, Azadi may take a form that we cannot anticipate. But as Mukul Kesavan pointed out to Shuddha we have to extrapolate on the outcomes from the gamut of the existing pointers. And it is the Azadi seekers who need to deliberate more on what they are going to do. Not just that we will do it better. We have heard his before from Jinnah--we will protect our minorities (better). 2008/9/13 Sanjay Kak > Thanks, Jeebesh, for posting Umair Ahmed Muhajir's piece "The Azadi We > Need" > http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20080904&fname=umair&sid=1 > > The Sarai list has robustly reflected the recent revival of interest in the > idea of Kashmir's Azadi, and I think many of us would be in synch with the > despair reflected in Muhajir's understanding of the monstrous contours of > the modern nation state, especially as it has unfolded in our part of the > world–India, Pakistan, Bangladesh... > > What I do not share is the certainity with which he–like many writers in > recent weeks both here and in other public forums in India–have visualised > a > possible Azad Kashmir. Perhaps because few in Kashmir have been able to > spell out their vision, our assumptions have flooded in and filled the > space. One of these is that Azadi necessarily means an Islamic Nation. > Certainly there are pointers from some of the political leaders of the > movement that this may be the idea. Syed Ali Shah Geelani has spoken of the > centrality of Islam in his vision, and no doubt there are other elements in > the Hurriyat that would concur. (Although even here it is an open question > what their Islamic role model is: Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Malaysia, Syria, > Qatar? Or another: Kashmir,) But surely it cannot be the case that what > Geelani says, or what elements of the Hurriyat hint at can be taken as > conclusive in our understanding of the aspirations for Azadi? (Especially > when most people who draw these conclusions are also the first to question > the representative character of Geelani or the Hurriyat!) > > Our discussions of where Kashmir is headed is already moving so giddily > ahead of the state of play, that sometimes I get the sensation that these > are not really conversations about Kashmir, and the abominable situation > there, but really about our anxieties about ourselves. (Here I use "our" > for > those of whose of us who do not see ourselves as Kashmiris–so Indians, > Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, whoever.) > > Let us for a moment ignore the hardliners in the public discourse, the G > Parthasarathy, K Subrahmanyam, Harish Khare (and for comic relief, > Jaitirath > Rao) line on Kashmir. (In a nutshell: fry them). > Let's turn to the liberal discourse, where however sophisticated the > language, and however much sympathy for the "ordinary Kashmiri" is evoked, > the main preoccupation seems to be around what a possible Azad Kashmir–one > which wears it Muslim majority and its Islamic character on its sleeve–will > do to the idea of Indian secularism, to Indian democracy, and to India's > Muslims. In India, for example, the failure to fulfill the aspirations of a > Secular, Socialist, Democratic Republic that We The People were promised, > seem to hinge entirely on whether or not Kashmir continues to be part of > India... How fragile is this notion of the Secular Socialist Democracy that > it hinges entirely on a part of the map that has never enthusiastically > embraced the geographical entity that bounds that ideal! > > So too in Muhajir's otherwise excellent discussion of the Nation State, > Kashmir is only the peg upon which the larger anxiety hangs. I tended to > read his piece as a lament about the failure of our nations to meet the > aspirations of our decolonising imaginations. About what he calls the Azadi > We Need. > > To say, as Muhajir does, that "the idea of an independent Kashmir for > Kashmiris must be resisted precisely because, as the experience of the > once-colonised has amply illustrated, nation-states are appallingly > inhuman" > is a suggestion of some casual brutality. And when he says that "nothing in > the Kashmiri independence movement suggests that it will throw up anything > different; indeed given that the movement aims at a traditional > nation-state > just like all the others, I submit that it cannot yield a different > result", > I can only wonder at his certainity of what the movement aims at. He is > asking us not just to doubt, or raise a red-flag of warning, but to > "resist" > because he believes that an Independent Kashmir may turn into the monster > with the big floppy ears and the sharp tusks? Remember the Six Blind Men of > Hindustan, and the Elephant? > > Because in the absence of democracy, in the absence of free and fearless > politics, and in the presence of a quite monstrous apparatus of occupation, > none of us can as yet lay claim to saying that we know what the movement > aims at. > > The discomfort with the Nation State is a valid one. If indeed there are > those within the movement who casually think of such an entity, then they > would do well to make themselves familiar with the arguments Mohajir > assembles against it. But for the vast majority of people in the valley, > the > idea of Azadi does not as yet have such elaborate contours. It still means > removing the Army, bringing back some elementary dignity into everyday > life. > We can lay the charge at the door of the Separatist leadership that they > have failed to start that conversation about what Kashmir could be like. > But > before we "resist" the idea of Azadi we–and here I speak of Indians–must > also take on board our complicity in a system that has not allowed any form > of genuine democratic process to emerge in Kashmir, not just since 1989 > when > the armed conflict broke out, but for at least three decades before that. > > And what if, in the absence of another workable alternative that they can > come up with, or indeed we can offer them, they still choose the tattered > and torn robes of the Nation State? Will we say to them that their struggle > is meaningless, their suffering inconsequential, the repression they have > dealt with somehow appropriate? Because they don't understand the perils of > the Nation State they must cease to resist? > > In recent weeks, one can see the furry edges of the Establishment fluffing > up in defence of old atrophied positions. Forget the Intelligence Bureau > plants and the Home Ministry hand-outs. Academics Sumit Ganguly and Kanti > Bajpai, separately and together, placed a series of articles all over the > national and international media that set up a sort of Qualifying Standard > to Permit Secession. Minimally you are required to say Yes to the > following: > Genocide? Ethnic flooding? Major human rights violations? Since India has > fallen short on all counts, they aver, with only 70,000 dead, and No Major > human rights violations, the Standard is not met . Sorry then. No case for > Azadi. > Who set up this Gold Standard, and who calibrates it? > > While it is not my intention to place Muhajir's arguments on the same shelf > as the Hawks and the Hawks-in-Dove-feathers, I bring them together because > collectively they serve the same end-result: "This may not end up the way > WE > want it, so lets just wait and watch". > > That was the position that British Liberals could well have taken in the > years before Independence: hand over India to the Hindu Mahasabha? The > Muslim League? To Gandhi?. > Better a part of Empire than to allow India to destroy itself under the > weight of its own contradictions. > > That has been the position of liberal Indians for at least twenty–if not > sixty–years. Frozen in a rigor mortis of wilful ignorance, political > correctness, and theoretical purity. > > This may not be The Azadi They Need. > > Sanjay Kak > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From senpriya at gmail.com Sun Sep 14 15:18:22 2008 From: senpriya at gmail.com (Priya Sen) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 15:18:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi Message-ID: <8c9003440809140248m276832c9g3bbac9520926ebfe@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, India Gate, September 13th, 6:20 or so in the evening. I had decided to walk from Triveni Academy towards Khan Market, determined to buy a bicycle and thinking, it's getting dark and maybe I should wait until Monday and I shouldn't tell my mother about my biking plans and even though I plan to ride early mornings I need to ride it back home now and so on and so forth. India Gate was as India Gate is on a weekend evening. Walking through it made me think of other times I had been there, a few specific memories and a general sense of being in Delhi - of familiarity and ease from having been here for as long as I have, and of curiousity, the kind that comes from knowing that places are never the same - making mental notes for no one really about the Kwality Walls ice cream cart that had a board saying 'Old Vendor, India Gate since 1956', and the astrologer who sits in the same place always, and people with video cameras filming the gate who always make me wonder at what they think when they play it back later. It took 15 minutes to cross over to Shah Jahan Road. Me, a couple of young men, and a papad seller who the policeman who was also waiting for the lights to change, generally swore at, and I laughed at how swearing is so integral to ones day in Delhi. Later I heard there were a couple of bombs that were defused, one at Regal Cinema and one at India Gate. I realized how many stories there are now. Of yesterday. Of where we were when.. . Of places we know so well. Of our lives up until the moment life changed for so many people in our city. Of the things that make our days what they are and will continue to. Everyone will have a story because everyone needs to claim something from moments like these. And everyone (in this city) must because this moment was about Delhi. It's happened before. Here, in other places, it will happen again and again and these will be 'the times according to people who live in these times'. And all we can really do is to embrace our lives a little harder. The last time I mourned for this city, a little like this, is when I watched Nanglamachi being demolished and people gathering their lives into bundles and tempos and going wherever. The ruthlessness was overwhelming. Not to make analogies here. Although nothing wrong with analogies and other things that make us feel what we feel. No rules for that! Think, feel whatever - it's all part of the way we make sense of things on day 2. It was like watching the news right after the blasts happened, when the reporters were as bewildered as everyone else. Somehow in their floundering the news channels were credible for a moment. Before the information started coming in and before they started interpreting it, that is. We know what they do and do well. Nothing is surprising, just a bit defeating and then you think why. Maybe we're defeated by the way we think, are told to think, don't think. Maybe sometimes it has nothing to do with how we live. Delhi feels quiet today, but that's also from where I am. Also it's Sunday. It will probably not seem very different when I go out later in the afternoon. But my sister called me this morning and was in tears and saying she couldn't sleep because of all this and is feeling restless because lakhs of people are going to be out on the streets today for Ganapati visarjan in Bombay. For her it's about Bombay as well, the place where she has her life. When public places become vulnerable it means having to make decisions about things one doesn't necessarily think about. It's about everything outside of us that is essential to how we construct our lives. It's about everyday decisions, small things, immediate concerns. About being able to imagine, and dream and lose ourselves in places. For a few days we will be excruciatingly aware of how we move around the city. There will be remorse and anxiety and conversation. We will share a common grief, in degrees, and it will bring us together more intensely. We will count and blame and speculate. And then we will thankfully, move on. Right now though, I would rather not. Not for today. I just want to be with what this city means to me. Aside from its symbols, its creation of itself, its skewed power dynamics and unbearable inequalities. A friend and I are convinced that "Delhi steps in when we really need something to.". Like the wisdom of places. Not to get melodramatic! I'm glad I was here when this happened and not somewhere else. Regards, Priya -- Priya Sen Sarai-CSDS 29, Rajpur Road, Civil Lines Delhi - 110054 priya at sarai.net From vivek at sarai.net Sun Sep 14 15:26:29 2008 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 15:26:29 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The kind of Azadi we need but cannot imagine In-Reply-To: References: <5c5369880809131043i178f0b7aida91ec46b2ee3e62@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48CCDFCD.7010301@sarai.net> Umair Muhajir mentions Rwanda, a state not explicitly premised on any ethnic or religious identity in its constitution, but does not mention South Africa. I'm thinking about the intense (though taboo) paranoia that gripped liberal intellectuals inside and outside South Africa right up to 1994 elections, even afterwards. What no one predicted, in the midst of worries about majorities and minorities, was that the target would be found elsewhere, that South Africa would establish itself as a liberal state with its own entirely homegrown anti-immigration discourse... But that is all besides the point. What I find really tragic is how all of us-- liberals and radicals, pro- and anti- Kashmiri Azadi alike-- yearn to think and articulate answers beyond the nation state but seem completely unable to. Isn't it a profound failure of the imagination, the machiavellian sense that things cannot be otherwise? I was thrilled to read Mujahir's opening paragraphs, but when I began to see where it was all going-- a strange argument about more and less reasonable, more and less preferable nation states, and a celebration, it would appear, of American democracy-- I felt a sickening sense of disappointment. To a person in a middle class home in Delhi or Chennai or New York, it might make sense to see the Indian state or the American state as reasonable, tractable, open to change, secular-- but, to echo Sanjay's point, I don't think that's what the daily experience of life in Srinagar or Baghdad is like. Vivek mahmood farooqui wrote: > Sanjay, I share your concern about Umair's casal disengagement with the > oppression in kashmir and with the liberationist impulse implicit in the > kasmiri uprising. > > Yes, Azadi may take a form that we cannot anticipate. But as Mukul Kesavan > pointed out to Shuddha we have to extrapolate on the outcomes from the gamut > of the existing pointers. And it is the Azadi seekers who need to deliberate > more on what they are going to do. Not just that we will do it better. > > We have heard his before from Jinnah--we will protect our minorities > (better). > > 2008/9/13 Sanjay Kak > > >> Thanks, Jeebesh, for posting Umair Ahmed Muhajir's piece "The Azadi We >> Need" >> http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20080904&fname=umair&sid=1 >> >> The Sarai list has robustly reflected the recent revival of interest in the >> idea of Kashmir's Azadi, and I think many of us would be in synch with the >> despair reflected in Muhajir's understanding of the monstrous contours of >> the modern nation state, especially as it has unfolded in our part of the >> world–India, Pakistan, Bangladesh... >> >> What I do not share is the certainity with which he–like many writers in >> recent weeks both here and in other public forums in India–have visualised >> a >> possible Azad Kashmir. Perhaps because few in Kashmir have been able to >> spell out their vision, our assumptions have flooded in and filled the >> space. One of these is that Azadi necessarily means an Islamic Nation. >> Certainly there are pointers from some of the political leaders of the >> movement that this may be the idea. Syed Ali Shah Geelani has spoken of the >> centrality of Islam in his vision, and no doubt there are other elements in >> the Hurriyat that would concur. (Although even here it is an open question >> what their Islamic role model is: Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Malaysia, Syria, >> Qatar? Or another: Kashmir,) But surely it cannot be the case that what >> Geelani says, or what elements of the Hurriyat hint at can be taken as >> conclusive in our understanding of the aspirations for Azadi? (Especially >> when most people who draw these conclusions are also the first to question >> the representative character of Geelani or the Hurriyat!) >> >> Our discussions of where Kashmir is headed is already moving so giddily >> ahead of the state of play, that sometimes I get the sensation that these >> are not really conversations about Kashmir, and the abominable situation >> there, but really about our anxieties about ourselves. (Here I use "our" >> for >> those of whose of us who do not see ourselves as Kashmiris–so Indians, >> Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, whoever.) >> >> Let us for a moment ignore the hardliners in the public discourse, the G >> Parthasarathy, K Subrahmanyam, Harish Khare (and for comic relief, >> Jaitirath >> Rao) line on Kashmir. (In a nutshell: fry them). >> Let's turn to the liberal discourse, where however sophisticated the >> language, and however much sympathy for the "ordinary Kashmiri" is evoked, >> the main preoccupation seems to be around what a possible Azad Kashmir–one >> which wears it Muslim majority and its Islamic character on its sleeve–will >> do to the idea of Indian secularism, to Indian democracy, and to India's >> Muslims. In India, for example, the failure to fulfill the aspirations of a >> Secular, Socialist, Democratic Republic that We The People were promised, >> seem to hinge entirely on whether or not Kashmir continues to be part of >> India... How fragile is this notion of the Secular Socialist Democracy that >> it hinges entirely on a part of the map that has never enthusiastically >> embraced the geographical entity that bounds that ideal! >> >> So too in Muhajir's otherwise excellent discussion of the Nation State, >> Kashmir is only the peg upon which the larger anxiety hangs. I tended to >> read his piece as a lament about the failure of our nations to meet the >> aspirations of our decolonising imaginations. About what he calls the Azadi >> We Need. >> >> To say, as Muhajir does, that "the idea of an independent Kashmir for >> Kashmiris must be resisted precisely because, as the experience of the >> once-colonised has amply illustrated, nation-states are appallingly >> inhuman" >> is a suggestion of some casual brutality. And when he says that "nothing in >> the Kashmiri independence movement suggests that it will throw up anything >> different; indeed given that the movement aims at a traditional >> nation-state >> just like all the others, I submit that it cannot yield a different >> result", >> I can only wonder at his certainity of what the movement aims at. He is >> asking us not just to doubt, or raise a red-flag of warning, but to >> "resist" >> because he believes that an Independent Kashmir may turn into the monster >> with the big floppy ears and the sharp tusks? Remember the Six Blind Men of >> Hindustan, and the Elephant? >> >> Because in the absence of democracy, in the absence of free and fearless >> politics, and in the presence of a quite monstrous apparatus of occupation, >> none of us can as yet lay claim to saying that we know what the movement >> aims at. >> >> The discomfort with the Nation State is a valid one. If indeed there are >> those within the movement who casually think of such an entity, then they >> would do well to make themselves familiar with the arguments Mohajir >> assembles against it. But for the vast majority of people in the valley, >> the >> idea of Azadi does not as yet have such elaborate contours. It still means >> removing the Army, bringing back some elementary dignity into everyday >> life. >> We can lay the charge at the door of the Separatist leadership that they >> have failed to start that conversation about what Kashmir could be like. >> But >> before we "resist" the idea of Azadi we–and here I speak of Indians–must >> also take on board our complicity in a system that has not allowed any form >> of genuine democratic process to emerge in Kashmir, not just since 1989 >> when >> the armed conflict broke out, but for at least three decades before that. >> >> And what if, in the absence of another workable alternative that they can >> come up with, or indeed we can offer them, they still choose the tattered >> and torn robes of the Nation State? Will we say to them that their struggle >> is meaningless, their suffering inconsequential, the repression they have >> dealt with somehow appropriate? Because they don't understand the perils of >> the Nation State they must cease to resist? >> >> In recent weeks, one can see the furry edges of the Establishment fluffing >> up in defence of old atrophied positions. Forget the Intelligence Bureau >> plants and the Home Ministry hand-outs. Academics Sumit Ganguly and Kanti >> Bajpai, separately and together, placed a series of articles all over the >> national and international media that set up a sort of Qualifying Standard >> to Permit Secession. Minimally you are required to say Yes to the >> following: >> Genocide? Ethnic flooding? Major human rights violations? Since India has >> fallen short on all counts, they aver, with only 70,000 dead, and No Major >> human rights violations, the Standard is not met . Sorry then. No case for >> Azadi. >> Who set up this Gold Standard, and who calibrates it? >> >> While it is not my intention to place Muhajir's arguments on the same shelf >> as the Hawks and the Hawks-in-Dove-feathers, I bring them together because >> collectively they serve the same end-result: "This may not end up the way >> WE >> want it, so lets just wait and watch". >> >> That was the position that British Liberals could well have taken in the >> years before Independence: hand over India to the Hindu Mahasabha? The >> Muslim League? To Gandhi?. >> Better a part of Empire than to allow India to destroy itself under the >> weight of its own contradictions. >> >> That has been the position of liberal Indians for at least twenty–if not >> sixty–years. Frozen in a rigor mortis of wilful ignorance, political >> correctness, and theoretical purity. >> >> This may not be The Azadi They Need. >> >> Sanjay Kak >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From partha.dasgupta at eliteinfomachine.com Sun Sep 14 15:41:42 2008 From: partha.dasgupta at eliteinfomachine.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 15:41:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Azadi We Need In-Reply-To: <47e122a70809140050m4c6c7171i8c5eca57459e2143@mail.gmail.com> References: <5c5369880809131043i178f0b7aida91ec46b2ee3e62@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70809140050m4c6c7171i8c5eca57459e2143@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990809140311o423da0d7sbed921eb0a2bfce6@mail.gmail.com> Hi, There are a lot of 'strange pasts' from Bangladesh to Tibet and others. We could go back to 'British Rule' or other points in history, which won't make a difference. Today is here and now with a burning Kashmir and a burning Jammu at odds with each other. Let us not talk of 'nationalism' as most of us pay taxes (and can't recourse to creative accountants as we can't afford it) which a large part of goes into sustenance of J&K where the Hindu's have had to flee from. What is gone can't be brought back. Let's look at now and what can be done. Even the inhospitable Tibet has been annexed by China and a 'free' Kashmir will never be free - especially so when Pakistan is torn apart by the militancy as well as lack of free governance. As a case in point, 'Azad Kashmir' is far more repressed that the 'Indian Occupied Kashmir'. Look at Pakistan's acceptance of US armed attacks. So let's take a clear eyed look at what is and what can be done. I have many dear friends (and they are friends - not because they are Muslim or Christian or... but because they are friends), many who called yesterday to ask if I was safe after the blast - irrespective of the fact that some were Muslims. This sinking into a haze of 'we poor Muslims' is defeat and if that's what you want to do, then no one can stop you. I debate with Pawan & others on the same factors. Look ahead and look at what can be done for peace & life instead of hate and defeat. Look at the militancy in Kashmir as well as the blasts in Delhi. I certainly want the police checks in Delhi so that my children can go safely. Sure, I had a number of stops and was slowed down, but would rather have that than my family's life being endangered. What's your case? You ask for 'Liberty'. So do I - from this fear that I may one day come back home to children torn up in a blast of 'freedom fighters' as ridiculous as the 'pro-lifers' who kill to prove their point. All I'm saying is that fanaticism in any form is dangerous and if we do not raise our voice against it today, then our silence will be taken as agreement just as it was accepted that 'Hindus' agreed with the breaking of Babri Masjid, and now that 'Muslims' support the terrorist blasts. It's time we move beyond this mass grouping and make up our own minds as to what we want to say instead of being a part of the herd. Rgds, Partha ..................... On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 1:20 PM, inder salim wrote: > History is a strange past. If Nepal was under British rule, Sardar > Patel might have loved to begin the formation of Indian Union from > there itself; and by now it might have been part of Uttaranchal, or > just another state by the name Nepal District; with its erestwhile > princes and kings drinking French wine at IIC. It is just a matter of > chance that that did not happen. Instead of that we have a wonderful > beginning in Nepal under a new leadership. India has no hesitation to > recognise it, although the fact remains that Maoist ways of achieving > it have been criticized by MEA in no other terms but Terrorism. > > J&K too was not part of British Rule in 1947. It is just a matter of > chance that Kashmir could not achieve the status of a Free Nation that > time. ( I know the word 'Nation' sounds shitty ). It had all the > ingredients which Nepal had. The only difference, here is that Nepal > had Hindus and Kashmir had Muslims. No one has an answer, what ruined > the dream of Sheikh Modh. Abudlah, as Mr. Kak said that even now, > "none of us can as yet lay claim to saying that we know what the > movement aims at no one can say" . But still we don't know why Nepal > is a free country and why Kashmir is not. We know dreams, after a > while get blurred and the priorities shift. New things emerge, while > history keeps on mocking at us, which intrigues me, sometimes very > funnily. > > So, it is indeed difficult to write on Kashmir. It is, perhaps easy > for those who a single line of action to offer, mainly those who are > overtly nationalistic. After reading, Roy, Muhajir and then Sanjay, I > feel that Kashmir is really a strange land. Something is surreal about > the land. Its people, its past and history makes it unique. If one > looks at the recent poetry of Kashmir in kashmiri, one can feel that > its unique past is still reverberating in its veins, which is quite > different from what is being written in urdu or in English. It is > simply different. I imagine the constitution of a Free New Kashmir in > Kashmiri. The language will itself oust the hardliners. The terrible > face of Nation State too might soften. But as we know, fortunately or > unfortunately, we are wedded to History which is known to all of us. > But that is not all, most of us know that, but cant do much about > that. History is the puzzle which we are actually trying to solve. > > The muslim character is Kashmir is simple a matter of fact and nothing > beyond. And as Ronald Barthes writes, there is nothing which is > called a matter of fact. SAS Geelani will disagree, but deep down, > people in Kashmir want to celebrate life, not fundamentalism. People > in Nepal too finally don't need a King or a declaration that Nepal is > a Hindu State. Kashmir too can refurbish its true credentials. But as > Shuddha, too said that fundamentalism and its terror tactics only > strengthen the State. "The only winner is state". So paradoxically, > our too much of attention on Muslim factor in Kashmir is making things > worst for the core meaning of Kashmiriyat ( the word, prostituted by > the State Machinery over the years, but I still use it, although > there can be a Kashmiri equivalent to it, but let us preserve that for > the proposed constitution, here, I hope, 'kashmirityat' would suffice > ). But, the British ways of implementing partition made it impossible > for us to see something other than a Hindu or a Muslim reality. We > have a history, which is quite painful. And for the abscess of those > inflicted wounds , we are still looking for British ( western ) > anti-biotics, which heals but without a guarantee to heal it at the > core. Kashmiris still have a chance to throw up an agenda which can be > based on a simple understanding of its own poets and saints. They > might succeeded where a great Hero like Sheikh Mohd Abudullh failed. > > If there is a movement, in Kashmir beyond the basic demand for removal > of Security forces from Kashmir and restoration of dignity in the > daily life, then it has to be based on some thought of civil society > where people can talk, express freely and sit seriously to talk about > the future of humanity on this earth. A simple aversion of Indian Tri > colour will not lead to some long lasting results, as Ms. Roy also > highlighted 'Doubt ' in her text on Azadi in Kashmir > > "Liberty has no refuge in the jurisprudence of doubt" I don't remember > who said it, but it does speak about the necessity of doubt in the > present, even if it means a delay for those who march on path of ' > safray azadi'. To unravel the unpredictable of the present we have no > other chance but to ' wait and watch' as Sanjay hinted. All > calculations might collapse. I just am trying to emancipate myself > more on the subject : Kahseer > > With love > > > On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 11:13 PM, Sanjay Kak wrote: > > Thanks, Jeebesh, for posting Umair Ahmed Muhajir's piece "The Azadi We > Need" > > http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20080904&fname=umair&sid=1 > > > > The Sarai list has robustly reflected the recent revival of interest in > the > > idea of Kashmir's Azadi, and I think many of us would be in synch with > the > > despair reflected in Muhajir's understanding of the monstrous contours of > > the modern nation state, especially as it has unfolded in our part of the > > world–India, Pakistan, Bangladesh... > > > > What I do not share is the certainity with which he–like many writers in > > recent weeks both here and in other public forums in India–have > visualised a > > possible Azad Kashmir. Perhaps because few in Kashmir have been able to > > spell out their vision, our assumptions have flooded in and filled the > > space. One of these is that Azadi necessarily means an Islamic Nation. > > Certainly there are pointers from some of the political leaders of the > > movement that this may be the idea. Syed Ali Shah Geelani has spoken of > the > > centrality of Islam in his vision, and no doubt there are other elements > in > > the Hurriyat that would concur. (Although even here it is an open > question > > whattheir Islamic role model is: Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Malaysia, Syria, > > Qatar? Or another: Kashmir,) But surely it cannot be the case that what > > Geelani says, or what elements of the Hurriyat hint at can be taken as > > conclusive in our understanding of the aspirations for Azadi? (Especially > > when most people who draw these conclusions are also the first to > question > > the representative character of Geelani or the Hurriyat!) > > > > Our discussions of where Kashmir is headed is already moving so giddily > > ahead of the state of play, that sometimes I get the sensation that these > > are not really conversations about Kashmir, and the abominable situation > > there, but really about our anxieties about ourselves. (Here I use "our" > for > > those of whose of us who do not see ourselves as Kashmiris–so Indians, > > Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, whoever.) > > > > Let us for a moment ignore the hardliners in the public discourse, the G > > Parthasarathy, K Subrahmanyam, Harish Khare (and for comic relief, > Jaitirath > > Rao) line on Kashmir. (In a nutshell: fry them). > > Let's turn to the liberal discourse, where however sophisticated the > > language, and however much sympathy for the "ordinary Kashmiri" is > evoked, > > the main preoccupation seems to be around what a possible Azad > Kashmir–one > > which wears it Muslim majority and its Islamic character on its > sleeve–will > > do to the idea of Indian secularism, to Indian democracy, and to India's > > Muslims. In India, for example, the failure to fulfill the aspirations of > a > > Secular, Socialist, Democratic Republic that We The People were promised, > > seem to hinge entirely on whether or not Kashmir continues to be part of > > India... How fragile is this notion of the Secular Socialist Democracy > that > > it hinges entirely on a part of the map that has never enthusiastically > > embraced the geographical entity that bounds that ideal! > > > > So too in Muhajir's otherwise excellent discussion of the Nation State, > > Kashmir is only the peg upon which the larger anxiety hangs. I tended to > > read his piece as a lament about the failure of our nations to meet the > > aspirations of our decolonising imaginations. About what he calls the > Azadi > > We Need. > > > > To say, as Muhajir does, that "the idea of an independent Kashmir for > > Kashmiris must be resisted precisely because, as the experience of the > > once-colonised has amply illustrated, nation-states are appallingly > inhuman" > > is a suggestion of some casual brutality. And when he says that "nothing > in > > the Kashmiri independence movement suggests that it will throw up > anything > > different; indeed given that the movement aims at a traditional > nation-state > > just like all the others, I submit that it cannot yield a different > result", > > I can only wonder at his certainity of what the movement aims at. He is > > asking us not just to doubt, or raise a red-flag of warning, but to > "resist" > > because he believes that an Independent Kashmir may turn into the monster > > with the big floppy ears and the sharp tusks? Remember the Six Blind Men > of > > Hindustan, and the Elephant? > > > > Because in the absence of democracy, in the absence of free and fearless > > politics, and in the presence of a quite monstrous apparatus of > occupation, > > none of us can as yet lay claim to saying that we know what the movement > > aims at. > > > > The discomfort with the Nation State is a valid one. If indeed there are > > those within the movement who casually think of such an entity, then they > > would do well to make themselves familiar with the arguments Mohajir > > assembles against it. But for the vast majority of people in the valley, > the > > idea of Azadi does not as yet have such elaborate contours. It still > means > > removing the Army, bringing back some elementary dignity into everyday > life. > > We can lay the charge at the door of the Separatist leadership that they > > have failed to start that conversation about what Kashmir could be like. > But > > before we "resist" the idea of Azadi we–and here I speak of Indians–must > > also take on board our complicity in a system that has not allowed any > form > > of genuine democratic process to emerge in Kashmir, not just since 1989 > when > > the armed conflict broke out, but for at least three decades before that. > > > > And what if, in the absence of another workable alternative that they can > > come up with, or indeed we can offer them, they still choose the tattered > > and torn robes of the Nation State? Will we say to them that their > struggle > > is meaningless, their suffering inconsequential, the repression they have > > dealt with somehow appropriate? Because they don't understand the perils > of > > the Nation State they must cease to resist? > > > > In recent weeks, one can see the furry edges of the Establishment > fluffing > > up in defence of old atrophied positions. Forget the Intelligence Bureau > > plants and the Home Ministry hand-outs. Academics Sumit Ganguly and Kanti > > Bajpai, separately and together, placed a series of articles all over the > > national and international media that set up a sort of Qualifying > Standard > > to Permit Secession. Minimally you are required to say Yes to the > following: > > Genocide? Ethnic flooding? Major human rights violations? Since India has > > fallen short on all counts, they aver, with only 70,000 dead, and No > Major > > human rights violations, the Standard is not met . Sorry then. No case > for > > Azadi. > > Who set up this Gold Standard, and who calibrates it? > > > > While it is not my intention to place Muhajir's arguments on the same > shelf > > as the Hawks and the Hawks-in-Dove-feathers, I bring them together > because > > collectively they serve the same end-result: "This may not end up the way > WE > > want it, so lets just wait and watch". > > > > That was the position that British Liberals could well have taken in the > > years before Independence: hand over India to the Hindu Mahasabha? The > > Muslim League? To Gandhi?. > > Better a part of Empire than to allow India to destroy itself under the > > weight of its own contradictions. > > > > That has been the position of liberal Indians for at least twenty–if not > > sixty–years. Frozen in a rigor mortis of wilful ignorance, political > > correctness, and theoretical purity. > > > > This may not be The Azadi They Need. > > > > Sanjay Kak > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 14 15:54:13 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 03:24:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Who Rules India - by Aakar Patel in THE NEWS Message-ID: <151298.86724.qm@web57203.mail.re3.yahoo.com>   Who rules India? Sunday, September 14, 2008 Aakar Patel Political power in India has shifted from the three upper castes to the fourth 'middle' caste through elections since 1952. A parallel cultural process has blurred identities within that fourth caste and it no longer sees itself as defined in Hindu doctrine. Hindu doctrine defines four castes: Brahmin, Kshtriya (warrior) and Vaishya (merchant) are the upper castes, which are twice-born. The fourth, Shudra, is the peasant caste, banned from learning, but not untouchable. Everyone who is not of these specific castes (Dalits, Muslims, Christians) is outside the caste system and an untouchable, by doctrine. In 1950, the Constitution of India abolished doctrinal Hinduism, under Articles 15 and 17. Article 15 opens up free access for all citizens to all public places, including "wells, tanks, bathing ghats...". Article 17 abolishes untouchability. The Supreme Court of India ruled that it was not necessary to be Brahmin to officiate at temples, ending a 3500 year monopoly. In terms of population, about 50 per cent of all Indians would be Shudra, but a cultural process known as Sankritization has led to Hindus, especially Shudras, rejecting their lower caste and defining themselves in terms of Jati or sub-caste, through which they claim higher status. India's Constitution was finished on November 26, 1949 and adopted on January 26, 1950, Republic Day. After India's first general election in 1952, the structure of power was not dissimilar to what came before it. However, over decades of elections, the structure has changed; one could say it has inverted itself. In the years after Independence, the most populous states of India were ruled by upper caste chief ministers, who were in power in 13 out of these 15 states. Ten of these chief ministers were Brahmin. At the centre, India had a Brahmin prime minister (Nehru) and a Brahmin president (Dr Rajendra Prasad). The man considered the nation's leader, Gandhi, was of the merchant caste. In Uttar Pradesh, India's largest state, the chief minister was Pandit Govind Ballabh Pant (Brahmin). Today the state of UP, with a population of 190 million, is headed by a Dalit woman, Mayawati. It is possible she will become prime minister after the next elections, the first untouchable to hold that position. Politics in Maharashtra, India's second biggest state with 97 million people, is dominated by Marathas, a peasant caste that claimed martial ancestry through enlistment in the Muslim armies of the Deccan, and then through ruling large parts of India after the collapse of the Mughals. The state's first chief minister (YB Chavan) and current one (Vilasrao Deshmukh) are both Marathas. Bihar's first chief minister was from the warrior caste, Sri Kumar Sinha. India's third biggest state with a population of 83 million, it is ruled today by a leader of the Other Backward Classes (OBC) Nitish Kumar, who is a Kurmi peasant. India's fourth biggest state is West Bengal, with 81 million people. Its current chief minister is Budhdhadeb Bhattacharya of the CPM. He is a Brahmin, the only one on this list, though being Communist he denies caste. The first chief minister of his state was PC Ghosh, from a caste that defines itself by its sub-caste, Kayastha but is actually part of the peasantry. The fifth biggest state in India is Andhra Pradesh, with a population of 78 million. Its first chief minister was VN Menon, a Brahmin. Its current chief minister is a Christian from an OBC caste, YSR Reddy. Next is Tamil Nadu with 68 million people. Its leader is the fiery Dravidian leader Karunanidhi, whose party's identity rose from an anti-Brahmin, anti-Aryan movement. Tamil Nadu's first chief minister, founder of the Dravidian political movement, was CN Annadurai, who came from a caste of weavers. Madhya Pradesh's first chief minister was Pandit Ravishankar Shukla, a Brahmin. Today its leader is the BJP's Shivraj Chouhan, of the warrior caste. The state's population is 62 million. The first chief minister of Rajasthan, home of the Rajputs and with a population of 58 million, was HL Shastri, a Brahmin. Today the chief minister is a woman, and a Maratha, the BJP's Vasundhara Raje Scindia. Martial Rajputs accept her because she is from a family of Marathas that ruled over large parts of central India. Her patronymic 'Raje' is from Raja, and Scindia is a corruption of the Marathi name Shinde. Gujarat has a population of 55 million and its first chief minister was Dr Jivraj Mehta, from the merchant caste and married to a Brahmin. Narendra Modi, its current leader, is from an OBC caste of oil pressers, called Ghanchi in Gujarati. Despite coming from an OBC caste, and one that is not populous, Modi has retained his power by owning a Gujarati identity rather than a caste-based one. The dominant caste in Gujarat is the peasant community of Patels. Karnataka with 54 million people also has a BJP government, with BS Yeddyurappa of the Lingayat community as its current chief minister. The Lingayats are followers of a 12th century saint who preached ecumenical Hinduism, and the group rejects caste. In India, naturally, they are The-caste-that-rejects-caste. The first chief minister of Karnataka was also Lingayat, K Hanumanthaiah. The eastern state of Orissa with 38 million people was headed first by a Brahmin, Hare Krushna Mahtab, and now by Naveen Patnaik of the caste of merchants. Kerala in the south has 32 million people and its first chief minister was the Brahmin EMS Namboodiripad, a Communist. The current chief minister is also Communist, VS Achuthanandan of the OBC caste of Ezhavas. Assam in the north-east has 27 million people. Its first chief minister was Gopinath Bordoloi, a Brahmin. It is headed currently by Tarun Kumar Gogoi, from an OBC caste. Punjab has 26 million people and its first chief minister was Dr Gopi Chand Bhargava, a Brahmin. Since the mid-60s it has been ruled by the Sikhs, most of the peasant caste of Jats including the incumbent, Parkash Singh Badal. Haryana has 21 million people. Its first chief minister was a Brahmin, Pandit Bhagwat Dayal Sharma. Since the 70s (the state was formed when East Punjab was divided in 1966) the state has been ruled mostly by Jats of the peasant caste. The present chief minister is Bhupinder Singh Hooda, also a Jat. The oligarchy of Nehruvian India has come to an end, and the bottom caste has seized power. Even the BJP, India's party of Hindu high culture, has been forced to shift its position. Its ideologues and founders were Brahmins from SP Mookerjee to Vajpayee. The RSS is entirely Brahmin from its ideologues - Savarkar, Hedgewar, Golwalkar, Upadhyaya - to all its chiefs, except one. But the BJP has been forced from within to cede power to middle and lower caste leaders because religion is not an identity for Hindus as much as first sub-caste and then language are. English-speaking Indians, most of whom would be from upper castes, have removed themselves from politics. They first lost their position as the middle and low castes pressed their democratic advantage through elections. Then, as the economy changed, they exited politics fully because they did not need to depend on the state any longer. In India, the state offers protection and employment, the two promises politicians hold out to their supporters. Upper-caste, English-speaking Indians are not vulnerable to India's mindless violence and do not depend on the state for employment. Political discourse in India is emotional and cannot deliver itself in English. But the language of governance is English. The writer is a former newspaper editor. He lives in Bombay. Email: aakar @hillroadmedia.com   http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=135625         From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Sun Sep 14 16:03:20 2008 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 16:03:20 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Documentary on chengara: Dying for Land: The Ultimate Sacrifice Message-ID: <35f96d470809140333t68e74920l929753bc87ff6c0e@mail.gmail.com> see http://sudeepsdiary.blogspot.com/2008/09/onam-release.html Youtube links http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuGM6txIRWo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVhgu9DNG8M http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdbVDsXLVV8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNhw5KD2_dU Copy right left and center!! From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Sun Sep 14 15:57:32 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 15:27:32 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] The Azadi We Need In-Reply-To: <32144e990809140311o423da0d7sbed921eb0a2bfce6@mail.gmail.com> References: <5c5369880809131043i178f0b7aida91ec46b2ee3e62@mail.gmail.com> <"47 e122a70809140050m4c6c7171i8c5eca57459e2143"@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990809140311o423da0d7sbed921eb0a2bfce6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Really good thoughts, but the likes of Inder salim with hidden agenda of their faith do not understand, nor do they have the will to appreciate the way of life, insaniyath, of which they talk and earn wealth out such glib talks.! ----- Original Message ----- From: Partha Dasgupta Date: Sunday, September 14, 2008 3:42 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Azadi We Need To: inder salim Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Hi, > > There are a lot of 'strange pasts' from Bangladesh to Tibet and > others. > We could go back to 'British Rule' or other points in history, > which won't > make a difference. Today is here and now with a burning Kashmir > and a > burning Jammu at odds with each other. > > Let us not talk of 'nationalism' as most of us pay taxes (and > can't recourse > to creative accountants as we can't afford it) which a large part > of goes > into sustenance of J&K where the Hindu's have had to flee from. > > What is gone can't be brought back. Let's look at now and what can > be done. > > Even the inhospitable Tibet has been annexed by China and a 'free' > Kashmirwill never be free - especially so when Pakistan is torn > apart by the > militancy as well as lack of free governance. As a case in point, > 'AzadKashmir' is far more repressed that the 'Indian Occupied > Kashmir'. Look at > Pakistan's acceptance of US armed attacks. > > So let's take a clear eyed look at what is and what can be done. > > I have many dear friends (and they are friends - not because they > are Muslim > or Christian or... but because they are friends), many who called > yesterdayto ask if I was safe after the blast - irrespective of > the fact that some > were Muslims. > > This sinking into a haze of 'we poor Muslims' is defeat and if > that's what > you want to do, then no one can stop you. I debate with Pawan & > others on > the same factors. Look ahead and look at what can be done for > peace & life > instead of hate and defeat. > > Look at the militancy in Kashmir as well as the blasts in Delhi. I > certainlywant the police checks in Delhi so that my children can > go safely. Sure, I > had a number of stops and was slowed down, but would rather have > that than > my family's life being endangered. > > What's your case? > > You ask for 'Liberty'. So do I - from this fear that I may one day > come back > home to children torn up in a blast of 'freedom fighters' as > ridiculous as > the 'pro-lifers' who kill to prove their point. > > All I'm saying is that fanaticism in any form is dangerous and if > we do not > raise our voice against it today, then our silence will be taken as > agreement just as it was accepted that 'Hindus' agreed with the > breaking of > Babri Masjid, and now that 'Muslims' support the terrorist blasts. > > It's time we move beyond this mass grouping and make up our own > minds as to > what we want to say instead of being a part of the herd. > > Rgds, Partha > ..................... > > On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 1:20 PM, inder salim > wrote: > > > History is a strange past. If Nepal was under British rule, Sardar > > Patel might have loved to begin the formation of Indian Union from > > there itself; and by now it might have been part of Uttaranchal, or > > just another state by the name Nepal District; with its erestwhile > > princes and kings drinking French wine at IIC. It is just a > matter of > > chance that that did not happen. Instead of that we have a wonderful > > beginning in Nepal under a new leadership. India has no > hesitation to > > recognise it, although the fact remains that Maoist ways of > achieving> it have been criticized by MEA in no other terms but > Terrorism.> > > J&K too was not part of British Rule in 1947. It is just a > matter of > > chance that Kashmir could not achieve the status of a Free > Nation that > > time. ( I know the word 'Nation' sounds shitty ). It had all the > > ingredients which Nepal had. The only difference, here is that Nepal > > had Hindus and Kashmir had Muslims. No one has an answer, what > ruined> the dream of Sheikh Modh. Abudlah, as Mr. Kak said that > even now, > > "none of us can as yet lay claim to saying that we know what the > > movement aims at no one can say" . But still we don't know why Nepal > > is a free country and why Kashmir is not. We know dreams, > after a > > while get blurred and the priorities shift. New things emerge, while > > history keeps on mocking at us, which intrigues me, sometimes very > > funnily. > > > > So, it is indeed difficult to write on Kashmir. It is, perhaps easy > > for those who a single line of action to offer, mainly those who are > > overtly nationalistic. After reading, Roy, Muhajir and then > Sanjay, I > > feel that Kashmir is really a strange land. Something is surreal > about> the land. Its people, its past and history makes it unique. > If one > > looks at the recent poetry of Kashmir in kashmiri, one can feel that > > its unique past is still reverberating in its veins, which is quite > > different from what is being written in urdu or in English. It is > > simply different. I imagine the constitution of a Free New > Kashmir in > > Kashmiri. The language will itself oust the hardliners. The > terrible> face of Nation State too might soften. But as we know, > fortunately or > > unfortunately, we are wedded to History which is known to all > of us. > > But that is not all, most of us know that, but cant do much about > > that. History is the puzzle which we are actually trying to solve. > > > > The muslim character is Kashmir is simple a matter of fact and > nothing> beyond. And as Ronald Barthes writes, there is nothing > which is > > called a matter of fact. SAS Geelani will disagree, but deep down, > > people in Kashmir want to celebrate life, not fundamentalism. People > > in Nepal too finally don't need a King or a declaration that > Nepal is > > a Hindu State. Kashmir too can refurbish its true credentials. > But as > > Shuddha, too said that fundamentalism and its terror tactics only > > strengthen the State. "The only winner is state". So paradoxically, > > our too much of attention on Muslim factor in Kashmir is making > things> worst for the core meaning of Kashmiriyat ( the word, > prostituted by > > the State Machinery over the years, but I still use it, although > > there can be a Kashmiri equivalent to it, but let us preserve > that for > > the proposed constitution, here, I hope, 'kashmirityat' would > suffice> ). But, the British ways of implementing partition made > it impossible > > for us to see something other than a Hindu or a Muslim reality. We > > have a history, which is quite painful. And for the abscess of those > > inflicted wounds , we are still looking for British ( western ) > > anti-biotics, which heals but without a guarantee to heal it at the > > core. Kashmiris still have a chance to throw up an agenda which > can be > > based on a simple understanding of its own poets and saints. They > > might succeeded where a great Hero like Sheikh Mohd Abudullh failed. > > > > If there is a movement, in Kashmir beyond the basic demand for > removal> of Security forces from Kashmir and restoration of > dignity in the > > daily life, then it has to be based on some thought of civil society > > where people can talk, express freely and sit seriously to talk > about> the future of humanity on this earth. A simple aversion of > Indian Tri > > colour will not lead to some long lasting results, as Ms. Roy also > > highlighted 'Doubt ' in her text on Azadi in Kashmir > > > > "Liberty has no refuge in the jurisprudence of doubt" I don't > remember> who said it, but it does speak about the necessity of > doubt in the > > present, even if it means a delay for those who march on path of ' > > safray azadi'. To unravel the unpredictable of the present we > have no > > other chance but to ' wait and watch' as Sanjay hinted. All > > calculations might collapse. I just am trying to emancipate > myself> more on the subject : Kahseer > > > > With love > > > > > > On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 11:13 PM, Sanjay Kak > wrote: > > > Thanks, Jeebesh, for posting Umair Ahmed Muhajir's piece "The > Azadi We > > Need" > > > > http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20080904&fname=umair&sid=1> > > > > The Sarai list has robustly reflected the recent revival of > interest in > > the > > > idea of Kashmir's Azadi, and I think many of us would be in > synch with > > the > > > despair reflected in Muhajir's understanding of the monstrous > contours of > > > the modern nation state, especially as it has unfolded in our > part of the > > > world–India, Pakistan, Bangladesh... > > > > > > What I do not share is the certainity with which he–like many > writers in > > > recent weeks both here and in other public forums in India–have > > visualised a > > > possible Azad Kashmir. Perhaps because few in Kashmir have > been able to > > > spell out their vision, our assumptions have flooded in and > filled the > > > space. One of these is that Azadi necessarily means an Islamic > Nation.> > Certainly there are pointers from some of the political > leaders of the > > > movement that this may be the idea. Syed Ali Shah Geelani has > spoken of > > the > > > centrality of Islam in his vision, and no doubt there are > other elements > > in > > > the Hurriyat that would concur. (Although even here it is an open > > question > > > whattheir Islamic role model is: Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, > Malaysia, Syria, > > > Qatar? Or another: Kashmir,) But surely it cannot be the case > that what > > > Geelani says, or what elements of the Hurriyat hint at can be > taken as > > > conclusive in our understanding of the aspirations for Azadi? > (Especially> > when most people who draw these conclusions are > also the first to > > question > > > the representative character of Geelani or the Hurriyat!) > > > > > > Our discussions of where Kashmir is headed is already moving > so giddily > > > ahead of the state of play, that sometimes I get the sensation > that these > > > are not really conversations about Kashmir, and the abominable > situation> > there, but really about our anxieties about > ourselves. (Here I use "our" > > for > > > those of whose of us who do not see ourselves as Kashmiris–so > Indians,> > Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, whoever.) > > > > > > Let us for a moment ignore the hardliners in the public > discourse, the G > > > Parthasarathy, K Subrahmanyam, Harish Khare (and for comic relief, > > Jaitirath > > > Rao) line on Kashmir. (In a nutshell: fry them). > > > Let's turn to the liberal discourse, where however > sophisticated the > > > language, and however much sympathy for the "ordinary > Kashmiri" is > > evoked, > > > the main preoccupation seems to be around what a possible Azad > > Kashmir–one > > > which wears it Muslim majority and its Islamic character on its > > sleeve–will > > > do to the idea of Indian secularism, to Indian democracy, and > to India's > > > Muslims. In India, for example, the failure to fulfill the > aspirations of > > a > > > Secular, Socialist, Democratic Republic that We The People > were promised, > > > seem to hinge entirely on whether or not Kashmir continues to > be part of > > > India... How fragile is this notion of the Secular Socialist > Democracy> that > > > it hinges entirely on a part of the map that has never > enthusiastically> > embraced the geographical entity that bounds > that ideal! > > > > > > So too in Muhajir's otherwise excellent discussion of the > Nation State, > > > Kashmir is only the peg upon which the larger anxiety hangs. I > tended to > > > read his piece as a lament about the failure of our nations to > meet the > > > aspirations of our decolonising imaginations. About what he > calls the > > Azadi > > > We Need. > > > > > > To say, as Muhajir does, that "the idea of an independent > Kashmir for > > > Kashmiris must be resisted precisely because, as the > experience of the > > > once-colonised has amply illustrated, nation-states are > appallingly> inhuman" > > > is a suggestion of some casual brutality. And when he says > that "nothing > > in > > > the Kashmiri independence movement suggests that it will throw up > > anything > > > different; indeed given that the movement aims at a traditional > > nation-state > > > just like all the others, I submit that it cannot yield a > different> result", > > > I can only wonder at his certainity of what the movement aims > at. He is > > > asking us not just to doubt, or raise a red-flag of warning, > but to > > "resist" > > > because he believes that an Independent Kashmir may turn into > the monster > > > with the big floppy ears and the sharp tusks? Remember the Six > Blind Men > > of > > > Hindustan, and the Elephant? > > > > > > Because in the absence of democracy, in the absence of free > and fearless > > > politics, and in the presence of a quite monstrous apparatus of > > occupation, > > > none of us can as yet lay claim to saying that we know what > the movement > > > aims at. > > > > > > The discomfort with the Nation State is a valid one. If indeed > there are > > > those within the movement who casually think of such an > entity, then they > > > would do well to make themselves familiar with the arguments > Mohajir> > assembles against it. But for the vast majority of > people in the valley, > > the > > > idea of Azadi does not as yet have such elaborate contours. It > still> means > > > removing the Army, bringing back some elementary dignity into > everyday> life. > > > We can lay the charge at the door of the Separatist leadership > that they > > > have failed to start that conversation about what Kashmir > could be like. > > But > > > before we "resist" the idea of Azadi we–and here I speak of > Indians–must> > also take on board our complicity in a system that > has not allowed any > > form > > > of genuine democratic process to emerge in Kashmir, not just > since 1989 > > when > > > the armed conflict broke out, but for at least three decades > before that. > > > > > > And what if, in the absence of another workable alternative > that they can > > > come up with, or indeed we can offer them, they still choose > the tattered > > > and torn robes of the Nation State? Will we say to them that their > > struggle > > > is meaningless, their suffering inconsequential, the > repression they have > > > dealt with somehow appropriate? Because they don't understand > the perils > > of > > > the Nation State they must cease to resist? > > > > > > In recent weeks, one can see the furry edges of the Establishment > > fluffing > > > up in defence of old atrophied positions. Forget the > Intelligence Bureau > > > plants and the Home Ministry hand-outs. Academics Sumit > Ganguly and Kanti > > > Bajpai, separately and together, placed a series of articles > all over the > > > national and international media that set up a sort of Qualifying > > Standard > > > to Permit Secession. Minimally you are required to say Yes to the > > following: > > > Genocide? Ethnic flooding? Major human rights violations? > Since India has > > > fallen short on all counts, they aver, with only 70,000 dead, > and No > > Major > > > human rights violations, the Standard is not met . Sorry then. > No case > > for > > > Azadi. > > > Who set up this Gold Standard, and who calibrates it? > > > > > > While it is not my intention to place Muhajir's arguments on > the same > > shelf > > > as the Hawks and the Hawks-in-Dove-feathers, I bring them together > > because > > > collectively they serve the same end-result: "This may not end > up the way > > WE > > > want it, so lets just wait and watch". > > > > > > That was the position that British Liberals could well have > taken in the > > > years before Independence: hand over India to the Hindu > Mahasabha? The > > > Muslim League? To Gandhi?. > > > Better a part of Empire than to allow India to destroy itself > under the > > > weight of its own contradictions. > > > > > > That has been the position of liberal Indians for at least > twenty–if not > > > sixty–years. Frozen in a rigor mortis of wilful ignorance, > political> > correctness, and theoretical purity. > > > > > > This may not be The Azadi They Need. > > > > > > Sanjay Kak > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list> > List archive: > > > > > > > > -- > > > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > +919811047132 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Sun Sep 14 16:05:46 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 15:35:46 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi In-Reply-To: <8c9003440809140248m276832c9g3bbac9520926ebfe@mail.gmail.com> References: <8c9003440809140248m276832c9g3bbac9520926ebfe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Without getting in to blame games, the need of the moment is the chairperson of UPA who is now proxy governor of the nation should have good introspection of the events and see if her Home Minister who was once speaker, but discarded by the electorate, got into rajya sabha by nomination and then is the Home minister, is he capable of any action. A dummy like Prime minister, again diitto to the governance who has no incentive to perform as Prime minister being discard beaucrat, has been of yester years, can not make up his mind to take tough action for fear of votebank getting "hurt". By this inaction, in actual practise muslims are getting branded as terrorists for the simple reason, they are not willing to be ready to identify, isolate and give up those who indulge in terror activities. It is sad scene indeed. Wheras the hindus do not want violence and bhajrang dal gets no sympathy for its acts of violence, muslims by floating NGOs to defend the accused are helping the ter ror accused, sheltoring the accused for plain and simple lots of money in the trade of defending the terror. regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Priya Sen Date: Sunday, September 14, 2008 3:18 pm Subject: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi To: reader-list at sarai.net > Dear All, > > India Gate, September 13th, 6:20 or so in the evening. I had > decided to walk > from Triveni Academy towards Khan Market, determined to buy a > bicycle and > thinking, it's getting dark and maybe I should wait until Monday > and I > shouldn't tell my mother about my biking plans and even though I > plan to > ride early mornings I need to ride it back home now and so on and > so forth. > India Gate was as India Gate is on a weekend evening. Walking > through it > made me think of other times I had been there, a few specific > memories and a > general sense of being in Delhi - of familiarity and ease from > having been > here for as long as I have, and of curiousity, the kind that comes > fromknowing that places are never the same - making mental notes > for no one > really about the Kwality Walls ice cream cart that had a board > saying 'Old > Vendor, India Gate since 1956', and the astrologer who sits in the > sameplace always, and people with video cameras filming the gate > who always make > me wonder at what they think when they play it back later. It > took 15 > minutes to cross over to Shah Jahan Road. Me, a couple of young > men, and a > papad seller who the policeman who was also waiting for the lights to > change, generally swore at, and I laughed at how swearing is so > integral to > ones day in Delhi. > > > Later I heard there were a couple of bombs that were defused, one > at Regal > Cinema and one at India Gate. I realized how many stories there > are now. Of > yesterday. Of where we were when.. . Of places we know so well. Of > our lives > up until the moment life changed for so many people in our city. > Of the > things that make our days what they are and will continue to. > Everyone will > have a story because everyone needs to claim something from > moments like > these. And everyone (in this city) must because this moment was > about Delhi. > It's happened before. Here, in other places, it will happen again > and again > and these will be 'the times according to people who live in these > times'.And all we can really do is to embrace our lives a little > harder. > > The last time I mourned for this city, a little like this, is when > I watched > Nanglamachi being demolished and people gathering their lives into > bundlesand tempos and going wherever. The ruthlessness was > overwhelming. Not to > make analogies here. Although nothing wrong with analogies and > other things > that make us feel what we feel. No rules for that! Think, feel > whatever - > it's all part of the way we make sense of things on day 2. It was like > watching the news right after the blasts happened, when the > reporters were > as bewildered as everyone else. Somehow in their floundering the news > channels were credible for a moment. Before the information > started coming > in and before they started interpreting it, that is. We know what > they do > and do well. Nothing is surprising, just a bit defeating and then > you think > why. Maybe we're defeated by the way we think, are told to think, > don'tthink. Maybe sometimes it has nothing to do with how we live. > > > Delhi feels quiet today, but that's also from where I am. Also > it's Sunday. > It will probably not seem very different when I go out later in the > afternoon. But my sister called me this morning and was in tears > and saying > she couldn't sleep because of all this and is feeling restless > because lakhs > of people are going to be out on the streets today for Ganapati > visarjan in > Bombay. For her it's about Bombay as well, the place where she has > her life. > When public places become vulnerable it means having to make > decisions about > things one doesn't necessarily think about. It's about everything > outside of > us that is essential to how we construct our lives. It's about > everydaydecisions, small things, immediate concerns. About being > able to imagine, > and dream and lose ourselves in places. For a few days we will be > excruciatingly aware of how we move around the city. There will be > remorseand anxiety and conversation. We will share a common grief, > in degrees, and > it will bring us together more intensely. We will count and blame and > speculate. And then we will thankfully, move on. > > > Right now though, I would rather not. Not for today. I just want > to be with > what this city means to me. Aside from its symbols, its creation > of itself, > its skewed power dynamics and unbearable inequalities. A friend > and I are > convinced that "Delhi steps in when we really need something to.". > Like the > wisdom of places. Not to get melodramatic! I'm glad I was here > when this > happened and not somewhere else. > > > Regards, > > > Priya > > -- > Priya Sen > Sarai-CSDS > 29, Rajpur Road, Civil Lines > Delhi - 110054 > priya at sarai.net > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From partha.dasgupta at eliteinfomachine.com Sun Sep 14 16:17:45 2008 From: partha.dasgupta at eliteinfomachine.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 16:17:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Azadi We Need In-Reply-To: References: <5c5369880809131043i178f0b7aida91ec46b2ee3e62@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990809140311o423da0d7sbed921eb0a2bfce6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990809140347y541aba78pa6112ebf99bab79c@mail.gmail.com> Dear Radhika Rajen, I will not talk about 'insaniyaat' and other such concepts as I have learnt over time that my views & that of others do not match. I also do not think that Inder is earning any 'wealth' out of this list or talks thereof. Even if he is, it is certainly not off mails on this list. In any case, that still leaves us back to the questions I asked. If you have any response on that, please do respond. However, such vague responses not only obfuscate the issue but also lead to a complete chaos. Would request you to stick to the issue at hand and make responses when you actually have something relevant to say. Rgds, Partha .................................... On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 3:57 PM, wrote: > Really good thoughts, but the likes of Inder salim with hidden agenda of > their faith do not understand, nor do they have the will to appreciate the > way of life, insaniyath, of which they talk and earn wealth out such glib > talks.! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Partha Dasgupta > Date: Sunday, September 14, 2008 3:42 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Azadi We Need > To: inder salim > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Hi, > > > > There are a lot of 'strange pasts' from Bangladesh to Tibet and > > others. > > We could go back to 'British Rule' or other points in history, > > which won't > > make a difference. Today is here and now with a burning Kashmir > > and a > > burning Jammu at odds with each other. > > > > Let us not talk of 'nationalism' as most of us pay taxes (and > > can't recourse > > to creative accountants as we can't afford it) which a large part > > of goes > > into sustenance of J&K where the Hindu's have had to flee from. > > > > What is gone can't be brought back. Let's look at now and what can > > be done. > > > > Even the inhospitable Tibet has been annexed by China and a 'free' > > Kashmirwill never be free - especially so when Pakistan is torn > > apart by the > > militancy as well as lack of free governance. As a case in point, > > 'AzadKashmir' is far more repressed that the 'Indian Occupied > > Kashmir'. Look at > > Pakistan's acceptance of US armed attacks. > > > > So let's take a clear eyed look at what is and what can be done. > > > > I have many dear friends (and they are friends - not because they > > are Muslim > > or Christian or... but because they are friends), many who called > > yesterdayto ask if I was safe after the blast - irrespective of > > the fact that some > > were Muslims. > > > > This sinking into a haze of 'we poor Muslims' is defeat and if > > that's what > > you want to do, then no one can stop you. I debate with Pawan & > > others on > > the same factors. Look ahead and look at what can be done for > > peace & life > > instead of hate and defeat. > > > > Look at the militancy in Kashmir as well as the blasts in Delhi. I > > certainlywant the police checks in Delhi so that my children can > > go safely. Sure, I > > had a number of stops and was slowed down, but would rather have > > that than > > my family's life being endangered. > > > > What's your case? > > > > You ask for 'Liberty'. So do I - from this fear that I may one day > > come back > > home to children torn up in a blast of 'freedom fighters' as > > ridiculous as > > the 'pro-lifers' who kill to prove their point. > > > > All I'm saying is that fanaticism in any form is dangerous and if > > we do not > > raise our voice against it today, then our silence will be taken as > > agreement just as it was accepted that 'Hindus' agreed with the > > breaking of > > Babri Masjid, and now that 'Muslims' support the terrorist blasts. > > > > It's time we move beyond this mass grouping and make up our own > > minds as to > > what we want to say instead of being a part of the herd. > > > > Rgds, Partha > > ..................... > > > > On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 1:20 PM, inder salim > > wrote: > > > > > History is a strange past. If Nepal was under British rule, Sardar > > > Patel might have loved to begin the formation of Indian Union from > > > there itself; and by now it might have been part of Uttaranchal, or > > > just another state by the name Nepal District; with its erestwhile > > > princes and kings drinking French wine at IIC. It is just a > > matter of > > > chance that that did not happen. Instead of that we have a wonderful > > > beginning in Nepal under a new leadership. India has no > > hesitation to > > > recognise it, although the fact remains that Maoist ways of > > achieving> it have been criticized by MEA in no other terms but > > Terrorism.> > > > J&K too was not part of British Rule in 1947. It is just a > > matter of > > > chance that Kashmir could not achieve the status of a Free > > Nation that > > > time. ( I know the word 'Nation' sounds shitty ). It had all the > > > ingredients which Nepal had. The only difference, here is that Nepal > > > had Hindus and Kashmir had Muslims. No one has an answer, what > > ruined> the dream of Sheikh Modh. Abudlah, as Mr. Kak said that > > even now, > > > "none of us can as yet lay claim to saying that we know what the > > > movement aims at no one can say" . But still we don't know why Nepal > > > is a free country and why Kashmir is not. We know dreams, > > after a > > > while get blurred and the priorities shift. New things emerge, while > > > history keeps on mocking at us, which intrigues me, sometimes very > > > funnily. > > > > > > So, it is indeed difficult to write on Kashmir. It is, perhaps easy > > > for those who a single line of action to offer, mainly those who are > > > overtly nationalistic. After reading, Roy, Muhajir and then > > Sanjay, I > > > feel that Kashmir is really a strange land. Something is surreal > > about> the land. Its people, its past and history makes it unique. > > If one > > > looks at the recent poetry of Kashmir in kashmiri, one can feel that > > > its unique past is still reverberating in its veins, which is quite > > > different from what is being written in urdu or in English. It is > > > simply different. I imagine the constitution of a Free New > > Kashmir in > > > Kashmiri. The language will itself oust the hardliners. The > > terrible> face of Nation State too might soften. But as we know, > > fortunately or > > > unfortunately, we are wedded to History which is known to all > > of us. > > > But that is not all, most of us know that, but cant do much about > > > that. History is the puzzle which we are actually trying to solve. > > > > > > The muslim character is Kashmir is simple a matter of fact and > > nothing> beyond. And as Ronald Barthes writes, there is nothing > > which is > > > called a matter of fact. SAS Geelani will disagree, but deep down, > > > people in Kashmir want to celebrate life, not fundamentalism. People > > > in Nepal too finally don't need a King or a declaration that > > Nepal is > > > a Hindu State. Kashmir too can refurbish its true credentials. > > But as > > > Shuddha, too said that fundamentalism and its terror tactics only > > > strengthen the State. "The only winner is state". So paradoxically, > > > our too much of attention on Muslim factor in Kashmir is making > > things> worst for the core meaning of Kashmiriyat ( the word, > > prostituted by > > > the State Machinery over the years, but I still use it, although > > > there can be a Kashmiri equivalent to it, but let us preserve > > that for > > > the proposed constitution, here, I hope, 'kashmirityat' would > > suffice> ). But, the British ways of implementing partition made > > it impossible > > > for us to see something other than a Hindu or a Muslim reality. We > > > have a history, which is quite painful. And for the abscess of those > > > inflicted wounds , we are still looking for British ( western ) > > > anti-biotics, which heals but without a guarantee to heal it at the > > > core. Kashmiris still have a chance to throw up an agenda which > > can be > > > based on a simple understanding of its own poets and saints. They > > > might succeeded where a great Hero like Sheikh Mohd Abudullh failed. > > > > > > If there is a movement, in Kashmir beyond the basic demand for > > removal> of Security forces from Kashmir and restoration of > > dignity in the > > > daily life, then it has to be based on some thought of civil society > > > where people can talk, express freely and sit seriously to talk > > about> the future of humanity on this earth. A simple aversion of > > Indian Tri > > > colour will not lead to some long lasting results, as Ms. Roy also > > > highlighted 'Doubt ' in her text on Azadi in Kashmir > > > > > > "Liberty has no refuge in the jurisprudence of doubt" I don't > > remember> who said it, but it does speak about the necessity of > > doubt in the > > > present, even if it means a delay for those who march on path of ' > > > safray azadi'. To unravel the unpredictable of the present we > > have no > > > other chance but to ' wait and watch' as Sanjay hinted. All > > > calculations might collapse. I just am trying to emancipate > > myself> more on the subject : Kahseer > > > > > > With love > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 11:13 PM, Sanjay Kak > > wrote: > > > > Thanks, Jeebesh, for posting Umair Ahmed Muhajir's piece "The > > Azadi We > > > Need" > > > > > > http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20080904&fname=umair&sid=1> > > > > > > The Sarai list has robustly reflected the recent revival of > > interest in > > > the > > > > idea of Kashmir's Azadi, and I think many of us would be in > > synch with > > > the > > > > despair reflected in Muhajir's understanding of the monstrous > > contours of > > > > the modern nation state, especially as it has unfolded in our > > part of the > > > > world–India, Pakistan, Bangladesh... > > > > > > > > What I do not share is the certainity with which he–like many > > writers in > > > > recent weeks both here and in other public forums in India–have > > > visualised a > > > > possible Azad Kashmir. Perhaps because few in Kashmir have > > been able to > > > > spell out their vision, our assumptions have flooded in and > > filled the > > > > space. One of these is that Azadi necessarily means an Islamic > > Nation.> > Certainly there are pointers from some of the political > > leaders of the > > > > movement that this may be the idea. Syed Ali Shah Geelani has > > spoken of > > > the > > > > centrality of Islam in his vision, and no doubt there are > > other elements > > > in > > > > the Hurriyat that would concur. (Although even here it is an open > > > question > > > > whattheir Islamic role model is: Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, > > Malaysia, Syria, > > > > Qatar? Or another: Kashmir,) But surely it cannot be the case > > that what > > > > Geelani says, or what elements of the Hurriyat hint at can be > > taken as > > > > conclusive in our understanding of the aspirations for Azadi? > > (Especially> > when most people who draw these conclusions are > > also the first to > > > question > > > > the representative character of Geelani or the Hurriyat!) > > > > > > > > Our discussions of where Kashmir is headed is already moving > > so giddily > > > > ahead of the state of play, that sometimes I get the sensation > > that these > > > > are not really conversations about Kashmir, and the abominable > > situation> > there, but really about our anxieties about > > ourselves. (Here I use "our" > > > for > > > > those of whose of us who do not see ourselves as Kashmiris–so > > Indians,> > Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, whoever.) > > > > > > > > Let us for a moment ignore the hardliners in the public > > discourse, the G > > > > Parthasarathy, K Subrahmanyam, Harish Khare (and for comic relief, > > > Jaitirath > > > > Rao) line on Kashmir. (In a nutshell: fry them). > > > > Let's turn to the liberal discourse, where however > > sophisticated the > > > > language, and however much sympathy for the "ordinary > > Kashmiri" is > > > evoked, > > > > the main preoccupation seems to be around what a possible Azad > > > Kashmir–one > > > > which wears it Muslim majority and its Islamic character on its > > > sleeve–will > > > > do to the idea of Indian secularism, to Indian democracy, and > > to India's > > > > Muslims. In India, for example, the failure to fulfill the > > aspirations of > > > a > > > > Secular, Socialist, Democratic Republic that We The People > > were promised, > > > > seem to hinge entirely on whether or not Kashmir continues to > > be part of > > > > India... How fragile is this notion of the Secular Socialist > > Democracy> that > > > > it hinges entirely on a part of the map that has never > > enthusiastically> > embraced the geographical entity that bounds > > that ideal! > > > > > > > > So too in Muhajir's otherwise excellent discussion of the > > Nation State, > > > > Kashmir is only the peg upon which the larger anxiety hangs. I > > tended to > > > > read his piece as a lament about the failure of our nations to > > meet the > > > > aspirations of our decolonising imaginations. About what he > > calls the > > > Azadi > > > > We Need. > > > > > > > > To say, as Muhajir does, that "the idea of an independent > > Kashmir for > > > > Kashmiris must be resisted precisely because, as the > > experience of the > > > > once-colonised has amply illustrated, nation-states are > > appallingly> inhuman" > > > > is a suggestion of some casual brutality. And when he says > > that "nothing > > > in > > > > the Kashmiri independence movement suggests that it will throw up > > > anything > > > > different; indeed given that the movement aims at a traditional > > > nation-state > > > > just like all the others, I submit that it cannot yield a > > different> result", > > > > I can only wonder at his certainity of what the movement aims > > at. He is > > > > asking us not just to doubt, or raise a red-flag of warning, > > but to > > > "resist" > > > > because he believes that an Independent Kashmir may turn into > > the monster > > > > with the big floppy ears and the sharp tusks? Remember the Six > > Blind Men > > > of > > > > Hindustan, and the Elephant? > > > > > > > > Because in the absence of democracy, in the absence of free > > and fearless > > > > politics, and in the presence of a quite monstrous apparatus of > > > occupation, > > > > none of us can as yet lay claim to saying that we know what > > the movement > > > > aims at. > > > > > > > > The discomfort with the Nation State is a valid one. If indeed > > there are > > > > those within the movement who casually think of such an > > entity, then they > > > > would do well to make themselves familiar with the arguments > > Mohajir> > assembles against it. But for the vast majority of > > people in the valley, > > > the > > > > idea of Azadi does not as yet have such elaborate contours. It > > still> means > > > > removing the Army, bringing back some elementary dignity into > > everyday> life. > > > > We can lay the charge at the door of the Separatist leadership > > that they > > > > have failed to start that conversation about what Kashmir > > could be like. > > > But > > > > before we "resist" the idea of Azadi we–and here I speak of > > Indians–must> > also take on board our complicity in a system that > > has not allowed any > > > form > > > > of genuine democratic process to emerge in Kashmir, not just > > since 1989 > > > when > > > > the armed conflict broke out, but for at least three decades > > before that. > > > > > > > > And what if, in the absence of another workable alternative > > that they can > > > > come up with, or indeed we can offer them, they still choose > > the tattered > > > > and torn robes of the Nation State? Will we say to them that their > > > struggle > > > > is meaningless, their suffering inconsequential, the > > repression they have > > > > dealt with somehow appropriate? Because they don't understand > > the perils > > > of > > > > the Nation State they must cease to resist? > > > > > > > > In recent weeks, one can see the furry edges of the Establishment > > > fluffing > > > > up in defence of old atrophied positions. Forget the > > Intelligence Bureau > > > > plants and the Home Ministry hand-outs. Academics Sumit > > Ganguly and Kanti > > > > Bajpai, separately and together, placed a series of articles > > all over the > > > > national and international media that set up a sort of Qualifying > > > Standard > > > > to Permit Secession. Minimally you are required to say Yes to the > > > following: > > > > Genocide? Ethnic flooding? Major human rights violations? > > Since India has > > > > fallen short on all counts, they aver, with only 70,000 dead, > > and No > > > Major > > > > human rights violations, the Standard is not met . Sorry then. > > No case > > > for > > > > Azadi. > > > > Who set up this Gold Standard, and who calibrates it? > > > > > > > > While it is not my intention to place Muhajir's arguments on > > the same > > > shelf > > > > as the Hawks and the Hawks-in-Dove-feathers, I bring them together > > > because > > > > collectively they serve the same end-result: "This may not end > > up the way > > > WE > > > > want it, so lets just wait and watch". > > > > > > > > That was the position that British Liberals could well have > > taken in the > > > > years before Independence: hand over India to the Hindu > > Mahasabha? The > > > > Muslim League? To Gandhi?. > > > > Better a part of Empire than to allow India to destroy itself > > under the > > > > weight of its own contradictions. > > > > > > > > That has been the position of liberal Indians for at least > > twenty–if not > > > > sixty–years. Frozen in a rigor mortis of wilful ignorance, > > political> > correctness, and theoretical purity. > > > > > > > > This may not be The Azadi They Need. > > > > > > > > Sanjay Kak > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list> > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Partha Dasgupta > > +919811047132 > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From partha.dasgupta at eliteinfomachine.com Sun Sep 14 16:28:53 2008 From: partha.dasgupta at eliteinfomachine.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 16:28:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi In-Reply-To: References: <8c9003440809140248m276832c9g3bbac9520926ebfe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990809140358x2189752aya57fec0c2203f959@mail.gmail.com> Dear Radhika Rajen, In may mails on this list you have pointed out how the elected representative is only a beneficiary divided caste votes and not a true representative. Now you jump to another point altogether and talk about the UPA chairperson and the eloctorate. Please stick to a viewpoint as it is hard to trace what your viewpoint is. If you have changed your viewpoint, then please denote so. In any case, saw the killings (directly and first hand in Delhi) during the Sikh militancy days and have seen communal riots in Baroda, Gujarat; and all I can say is that when herd mentality takes over the common sense is lost. Also, from Babri Masjid to the incapable idiots who got blown up some time back, we have seen Hindu militancy. Either we can agree that militancy in all forms is wrong or we can quibble about shades of right or wrong. So, where do you stand: a) Militancy & armed conflict is wrong OR b) Hindu's are allowed to have a conflict as they have been repressed as a majority and that cases like Godhra, Sikh killings in Delhi and Babri Masjid are justified. Rgds, Partha PS: I do note that when you talk of terror, you never refer to the LTTE (Hindu & Indian) which is considered as one of the most dangerous terrorist organisations and has killed a Prime Minister of India (and is not Muslim or Christian) or the killing of Indira Gandi - or is it that since they were not BJP/RSS that you do not consider them a loss? ..................................................... On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 4:05 PM, wrote: > Without getting in to blame games, the need of the moment is the > chairperson of UPA who is now proxy governor of the nation should have good > introspection of the events and see if her Home Minister who was once > speaker, but discarded by the electorate, got into rajya sabha by nomination > and then is the Home minister, is he capable of any action. A dummy like > Prime minister, again diitto to the governance who has no incentive to > perform as Prime minister being discard beaucrat, has been of yester years, > can not make up his mind to take tough action for fear of votebank getting > "hurt". By this inaction, in actual practise muslims are getting branded as > terrorists for the simple reason, they are not willing to be ready to > identify, isolate and give up those who indulge in terror activities. It is > sad scene indeed. Wheras the hindus do not want violence and bhajrang dal > gets no sympathy for its acts of violence, muslims by floating NGOs to > defend the accused are helping the ter > ror accused, sheltoring the accused for plain and simple lots of money in > the trade of defending the terror. > > regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Priya Sen > Date: Sunday, September 14, 2008 3:18 pm > Subject: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Dear All, > > > > India Gate, September 13th, 6:20 or so in the evening. I had > > decided to walk > > from Triveni Academy towards Khan Market, determined to buy a > > bicycle and > > thinking, it's getting dark and maybe I should wait until Monday > > and I > > shouldn't tell my mother about my biking plans and even though I > > plan to > > ride early mornings I need to ride it back home now and so on and > > so forth. > > India Gate was as India Gate is on a weekend evening. Walking > > through it > > made me think of other times I had been there, a few specific > > memories and a > > general sense of being in Delhi - of familiarity and ease from > > having been > > here for as long as I have, and of curiousity, the kind that comes > > fromknowing that places are never the same - making mental notes > > for no one > > really about the Kwality Walls ice cream cart that had a board > > saying 'Old > > Vendor, India Gate since 1956', and the astrologer who sits in the > > sameplace always, and people with video cameras filming the gate > > who always make > > me wonder at what they think when they play it back later. It > > took 15 > > minutes to cross over to Shah Jahan Road. Me, a couple of young > > men, and a > > papad seller who the policeman who was also waiting for the lights to > > change, generally swore at, and I laughed at how swearing is so > > integral to > > ones day in Delhi. > > > > > > Later I heard there were a couple of bombs that were defused, one > > at Regal > > Cinema and one at India Gate. I realized how many stories there > > are now. Of > > yesterday. Of where we were when.. . Of places we know so well. Of > > our lives > > up until the moment life changed for so many people in our city. > > Of the > > things that make our days what they are and will continue to. > > Everyone will > > have a story because everyone needs to claim something from > > moments like > > these. And everyone (in this city) must because this moment was > > about Delhi. > > It's happened before. Here, in other places, it will happen again > > and again > > and these will be 'the times according to people who live in these > > times'.And all we can really do is to embrace our lives a little > > harder. > > > > The last time I mourned for this city, a little like this, is when > > I watched > > Nanglamachi being demolished and people gathering their lives into > > bundlesand tempos and going wherever. The ruthlessness was > > overwhelming. Not to > > make analogies here. Although nothing wrong with analogies and > > other things > > that make us feel what we feel. No rules for that! Think, feel > > whatever - > > it's all part of the way we make sense of things on day 2. It was like > > watching the news right after the blasts happened, when the > > reporters were > > as bewildered as everyone else. Somehow in their floundering the news > > channels were credible for a moment. Before the information > > started coming > > in and before they started interpreting it, that is. We know what > > they do > > and do well. Nothing is surprising, just a bit defeating and then > > you think > > why. Maybe we're defeated by the way we think, are told to think, > > don'tthink. Maybe sometimes it has nothing to do with how we live. > > > > > > Delhi feels quiet today, but that's also from where I am. Also > > it's Sunday. > > It will probably not seem very different when I go out later in the > > afternoon. But my sister called me this morning and was in tears > > and saying > > she couldn't sleep because of all this and is feeling restless > > because lakhs > > of people are going to be out on the streets today for Ganapati > > visarjan in > > Bombay. For her it's about Bombay as well, the place where she has > > her life. > > When public places become vulnerable it means having to make > > decisions about > > things one doesn't necessarily think about. It's about everything > > outside of > > us that is essential to how we construct our lives. It's about > > everydaydecisions, small things, immediate concerns. About being > > able to imagine, > > and dream and lose ourselves in places. For a few days we will be > > excruciatingly aware of how we move around the city. There will be > > remorseand anxiety and conversation. We will share a common grief, > > in degrees, and > > it will bring us together more intensely. We will count and blame and > > speculate. And then we will thankfully, move on. > > > > > > Right now though, I would rather not. Not for today. I just want > > to be with > > what this city means to me. Aside from its symbols, its creation > > of itself, > > its skewed power dynamics and unbearable inequalities. A friend > > and I are > > convinced that "Delhi steps in when we really need something to.". > > Like the > > wisdom of places. Not to get melodramatic! I'm glad I was here > > when this > > happened and not somewhere else. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Priya > > > > -- > > Priya Sen > > Sarai-CSDS > > 29, Rajpur Road, Civil Lines > > Delhi - 110054 > > priya at sarai.net > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Sun Sep 14 16:50:05 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 16:50:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Azadi We Need In-Reply-To: References: <5c5369880809131043i178f0b7aida91ec46b2ee3e62@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990809140311o423da0d7sbed921eb0a2bfce6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0809140420o13ef4fcle36179e1e6dc133a@mail.gmail.com> Dear radhika, If there is anyone on this list who has consistently demonstrated exactly how much he invests in insaniyat it is Inder Salim. I would urge you to desist from commenting on his faith and beliefs because I do not think you have the capacity or desire to engage the complexity of how he defines either. Finally, I think it is ridiculous to even make a statement like earning wealth. How silly and stupid can you be? How dare you launch a personal attack on someone you don't know except through his writing? really, grow up A On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 3:57 PM, wrote: > Really good thoughts, but the likes of Inder salim with hidden agenda of > their faith do not understand, nor do they have the will to appreciate the > way of life, insaniyath, of which they talk and earn wealth out such glib > talks.! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Partha Dasgupta > Date: Sunday, September 14, 2008 3:42 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Azadi We Need > To: inder salim > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Hi, > > > > There are a lot of 'strange pasts' from Bangladesh to Tibet and > > others. > > We could go back to 'British Rule' or other points in history, > > which won't > > make a difference. Today is here and now with a burning Kashmir > > and a > > burning Jammu at odds with each other. > > > > Let us not talk of 'nationalism' as most of us pay taxes (and > > can't recourse > > to creative accountants as we can't afford it) which a large part > > of goes > > into sustenance of J&K where the Hindu's have had to flee from. > > > > What is gone can't be brought back. Let's look at now and what can > > be done. > > > > Even the inhospitable Tibet has been annexed by China and a 'free' > > Kashmirwill never be free - especially so when Pakistan is torn > > apart by the > > militancy as well as lack of free governance. As a case in point, > > 'AzadKashmir' is far more repressed that the 'Indian Occupied > > Kashmir'. Look at > > Pakistan's acceptance of US armed attacks. > > > > So let's take a clear eyed look at what is and what can be done. > > > > I have many dear friends (and they are friends - not because they > > are Muslim > > or Christian or... but because they are friends), many who called > > yesterdayto ask if I was safe after the blast - irrespective of > > the fact that some > > were Muslims. > > > > This sinking into a haze of 'we poor Muslims' is defeat and if > > that's what > > you want to do, then no one can stop you. I debate with Pawan & > > others on > > the same factors. Look ahead and look at what can be done for > > peace & life > > instead of hate and defeat. > > > > Look at the militancy in Kashmir as well as the blasts in Delhi. I > > certainlywant the police checks in Delhi so that my children can > > go safely. Sure, I > > had a number of stops and was slowed down, but would rather have > > that than > > my family's life being endangered. > > > > What's your case? > > > > You ask for 'Liberty'. So do I - from this fear that I may one day > > come back > > home to children torn up in a blast of 'freedom fighters' as > > ridiculous as > > the 'pro-lifers' who kill to prove their point. > > > > All I'm saying is that fanaticism in any form is dangerous and if > > we do not > > raise our voice against it today, then our silence will be taken as > > agreement just as it was accepted that 'Hindus' agreed with the > > breaking of > > Babri Masjid, and now that 'Muslims' support the terrorist blasts. > > > > It's time we move beyond this mass grouping and make up our own > > minds as to > > what we want to say instead of being a part of the herd. > > > > Rgds, Partha > > ..................... > > > > On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 1:20 PM, inder salim > > wrote: > > > > > History is a strange past. If Nepal was under British rule, Sardar > > > Patel might have loved to begin the formation of Indian Union from > > > there itself; and by now it might have been part of Uttaranchal, or > > > just another state by the name Nepal District; with its erestwhile > > > princes and kings drinking French wine at IIC. It is just a > > matter of > > > chance that that did not happen. Instead of that we have a wonderful > > > beginning in Nepal under a new leadership. India has no > > hesitation to > > > recognise it, although the fact remains that Maoist ways of > > achieving> it have been criticized by MEA in no other terms but > > Terrorism.> > > > J&K too was not part of British Rule in 1947. It is just a > > matter of > > > chance that Kashmir could not achieve the status of a Free > > Nation that > > > time. ( I know the word 'Nation' sounds shitty ). It had all the > > > ingredients which Nepal had. The only difference, here is that Nepal > > > had Hindus and Kashmir had Muslims. No one has an answer, what > > ruined> the dream of Sheikh Modh. Abudlah, as Mr. Kak said that > > even now, > > > "none of us can as yet lay claim to saying that we know what the > > > movement aims at no one can say" . But still we don't know why Nepal > > > is a free country and why Kashmir is not. We know dreams, > > after a > > > while get blurred and the priorities shift. New things emerge, while > > > history keeps on mocking at us, which intrigues me, sometimes very > > > funnily. > > > > > > So, it is indeed difficult to write on Kashmir. It is, perhaps easy > > > for those who a single line of action to offer, mainly those who are > > > overtly nationalistic. After reading, Roy, Muhajir and then > > Sanjay, I > > > feel that Kashmir is really a strange land. Something is surreal > > about> the land. Its people, its past and history makes it unique. > > If one > > > looks at the recent poetry of Kashmir in kashmiri, one can feel that > > > its unique past is still reverberating in its veins, which is quite > > > different from what is being written in urdu or in English. It is > > > simply different. I imagine the constitution of a Free New > > Kashmir in > > > Kashmiri. The language will itself oust the hardliners. The > > terrible> face of Nation State too might soften. But as we know, > > fortunately or > > > unfortunately, we are wedded to History which is known to all > > of us. > > > But that is not all, most of us know that, but cant do much about > > > that. History is the puzzle which we are actually trying to solve. > > > > > > The muslim character is Kashmir is simple a matter of fact and > > nothing> beyond. And as Ronald Barthes writes, there is nothing > > which is > > > called a matter of fact. SAS Geelani will disagree, but deep down, > > > people in Kashmir want to celebrate life, not fundamentalism. People > > > in Nepal too finally don't need a King or a declaration that > > Nepal is > > > a Hindu State. Kashmir too can refurbish its true credentials. > > But as > > > Shuddha, too said that fundamentalism and its terror tactics only > > > strengthen the State. "The only winner is state". So paradoxically, > > > our too much of attention on Muslim factor in Kashmir is making > > things> worst for the core meaning of Kashmiriyat ( the word, > > prostituted by > > > the State Machinery over the years, but I still use it, although > > > there can be a Kashmiri equivalent to it, but let us preserve > > that for > > > the proposed constitution, here, I hope, 'kashmirityat' would > > suffice> ). But, the British ways of implementing partition made > > it impossible > > > for us to see something other than a Hindu or a Muslim reality. We > > > have a history, which is quite painful. And for the abscess of those > > > inflicted wounds , we are still looking for British ( western ) > > > anti-biotics, which heals but without a guarantee to heal it at the > > > core. Kashmiris still have a chance to throw up an agenda which > > can be > > > based on a simple understanding of its own poets and saints. They > > > might succeeded where a great Hero like Sheikh Mohd Abudullh failed. > > > > > > If there is a movement, in Kashmir beyond the basic demand for > > removal> of Security forces from Kashmir and restoration of > > dignity in the > > > daily life, then it has to be based on some thought of civil society > > > where people can talk, express freely and sit seriously to talk > > about> the future of humanity on this earth. A simple aversion of > > Indian Tri > > > colour will not lead to some long lasting results, as Ms. Roy also > > > highlighted 'Doubt ' in her text on Azadi in Kashmir > > > > > > "Liberty has no refuge in the jurisprudence of doubt" I don't > > remember> who said it, but it does speak about the necessity of > > doubt in the > > > present, even if it means a delay for those who march on path of ' > > > safray azadi'. To unravel the unpredictable of the present we > > have no > > > other chance but to ' wait and watch' as Sanjay hinted. All > > > calculations might collapse. I just am trying to emancipate > > myself> more on the subject : Kahseer > > > > > > With love > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 11:13 PM, Sanjay Kak > > wrote: > > > > Thanks, Jeebesh, for posting Umair Ahmed Muhajir's piece "The > > Azadi We > > > Need" > > > > > > http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20080904&fname=umair&sid=1> > > > > > > The Sarai list has robustly reflected the recent revival of > > interest in > > > the > > > > idea of Kashmir's Azadi, and I think many of us would be in > > synch with > > > the > > > > despair reflected in Muhajir's understanding of the monstrous > > contours of > > > > the modern nation state, especially as it has unfolded in our > > part of the > > > > world–India, Pakistan, Bangladesh... > > > > > > > > What I do not share is the certainity with which he–like many > > writers in > > > > recent weeks both here and in other public forums in India–have > > > visualised a > > > > possible Azad Kashmir. Perhaps because few in Kashmir have > > been able to > > > > spell out their vision, our assumptions have flooded in and > > filled the > > > > space. One of these is that Azadi necessarily means an Islamic > > Nation.> > Certainly there are pointers from some of the political > > leaders of the > > > > movement that this may be the idea. Syed Ali Shah Geelani has > > spoken of > > > the > > > > centrality of Islam in his vision, and no doubt there are > > other elements > > > in > > > > the Hurriyat that would concur. (Although even here it is an open > > > question > > > > whattheir Islamic role model is: Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, > > Malaysia, Syria, > > > > Qatar? Or another: Kashmir,) But surely it cannot be the case > > that what > > > > Geelani says, or what elements of the Hurriyat hint at can be > > taken as > > > > conclusive in our understanding of the aspirations for Azadi? > > (Especially> > when most people who draw these conclusions are > > also the first to > > > question > > > > the representative character of Geelani or the Hurriyat!) > > > > > > > > Our discussions of where Kashmir is headed is already moving > > so giddily > > > > ahead of the state of play, that sometimes I get the sensation > > that these > > > > are not really conversations about Kashmir, and the abominable > > situation> > there, but really about our anxieties about > > ourselves. (Here I use "our" > > > for > > > > those of whose of us who do not see ourselves as Kashmiris–so > > Indians,> > Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, whoever.) > > > > > > > > Let us for a moment ignore the hardliners in the public > > discourse, the G > > > > Parthasarathy, K Subrahmanyam, Harish Khare (and for comic relief, > > > Jaitirath > > > > Rao) line on Kashmir. (In a nutshell: fry them). > > > > Let's turn to the liberal discourse, where however > > sophisticated the > > > > language, and however much sympathy for the "ordinary > > Kashmiri" is > > > evoked, > > > > the main preoccupation seems to be around what a possible Azad > > > Kashmir–one > > > > which wears it Muslim majority and its Islamic character on its > > > sleeve–will > > > > do to the idea of Indian secularism, to Indian democracy, and > > to India's > > > > Muslims. In India, for example, the failure to fulfill the > > aspirations of > > > a > > > > Secular, Socialist, Democratic Republic that We The People > > were promised, > > > > seem to hinge entirely on whether or not Kashmir continues to > > be part of > > > > India... How fragile is this notion of the Secular Socialist > > Democracy> that > > > > it hinges entirely on a part of the map that has never > > enthusiastically> > embraced the geographical entity that bounds > > that ideal! > > > > > > > > So too in Muhajir's otherwise excellent discussion of the > > Nation State, > > > > Kashmir is only the peg upon which the larger anxiety hangs. I > > tended to > > > > read his piece as a lament about the failure of our nations to > > meet the > > > > aspirations of our decolonising imaginations. About what he > > calls the > > > Azadi > > > > We Need. > > > > > > > > To say, as Muhajir does, that "the idea of an independent > > Kashmir for > > > > Kashmiris must be resisted precisely because, as the > > experience of the > > > > once-colonised has amply illustrated, nation-states are > > appallingly> inhuman" > > > > is a suggestion of some casual brutality. And when he says > > that "nothing > > > in > > > > the Kashmiri independence movement suggests that it will throw up > > > anything > > > > different; indeed given that the movement aims at a traditional > > > nation-state > > > > just like all the others, I submit that it cannot yield a > > different> result", > > > > I can only wonder at his certainity of what the movement aims > > at. He is > > > > asking us not just to doubt, or raise a red-flag of warning, > > but to > > > "resist" > > > > because he believes that an Independent Kashmir may turn into > > the monster > > > > with the big floppy ears and the sharp tusks? Remember the Six > > Blind Men > > > of > > > > Hindustan, and the Elephant? > > > > > > > > Because in the absence of democracy, in the absence of free > > and fearless > > > > politics, and in the presence of a quite monstrous apparatus of > > > occupation, > > > > none of us can as yet lay claim to saying that we know what > > the movement > > > > aims at. > > > > > > > > The discomfort with the Nation State is a valid one. If indeed > > there are > > > > those within the movement who casually think of such an > > entity, then they > > > > would do well to make themselves familiar with the arguments > > Mohajir> > assembles against it. But for the vast majority of > > people in the valley, > > > the > > > > idea of Azadi does not as yet have such elaborate contours. It > > still> means > > > > removing the Army, bringing back some elementary dignity into > > everyday> life. > > > > We can lay the charge at the door of the Separatist leadership > > that they > > > > have failed to start that conversation about what Kashmir > > could be like. > > > But > > > > before we "resist" the idea of Azadi we–and here I speak of > > Indians–must> > also take on board our complicity in a system that > > has not allowed any > > > form > > > > of genuine democratic process to emerge in Kashmir, not just > > since 1989 > > > when > > > > the armed conflict broke out, but for at least three decades > > before that. > > > > > > > > And what if, in the absence of another workable alternative > > that they can > > > > come up with, or indeed we can offer them, they still choose > > the tattered > > > > and torn robes of the Nation State? Will we say to them that their > > > struggle > > > > is meaningless, their suffering inconsequential, the > > repression they have > > > > dealt with somehow appropriate? Because they don't understand > > the perils > > > of > > > > the Nation State they must cease to resist? > > > > > > > > In recent weeks, one can see the furry edges of the Establishment > > > fluffing > > > > up in defence of old atrophied positions. Forget the > > Intelligence Bureau > > > > plants and the Home Ministry hand-outs. Academics Sumit > > Ganguly and Kanti > > > > Bajpai, separately and together, placed a series of articles > > all over the > > > > national and international media that set up a sort of Qualifying > > > Standard > > > > to Permit Secession. Minimally you are required to say Yes to the > > > following: > > > > Genocide? Ethnic flooding? Major human rights violations? > > Since India has > > > > fallen short on all counts, they aver, with only 70,000 dead, > > and No > > > Major > > > > human rights violations, the Standard is not met . Sorry then. > > No case > > > for > > > > Azadi. > > > > Who set up this Gold Standard, and who calibrates it? > > > > > > > > While it is not my intention to place Muhajir's arguments on > > the same > > > shelf > > > > as the Hawks and the Hawks-in-Dove-feathers, I bring them together > > > because > > > > collectively they serve the same end-result: "This may not end > > up the way > > > WE > > > > want it, so lets just wait and watch". > > > > > > > > That was the position that British Liberals could well have > > taken in the > > > > years before Independence: hand over India to the Hindu > > Mahasabha? The > > > > Muslim League? To Gandhi?. > > > > Better a part of Empire than to allow India to destroy itself > > under the > > > > weight of its own contradictions. > > > > > > > > That has been the position of liberal Indians for at least > > twenty–if not > > > > sixty–years. Frozen in a rigor mortis of wilful ignorance, > > political> > correctness, and theoretical purity. > > > > > > > > This may not be The Azadi They Need. > > > > > > > > Sanjay Kak > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list> > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Partha Dasgupta > > +919811047132 > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Sun Sep 14 19:08:15 2008 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 06:38:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions Message-ID: <823363.14484.qm@web53612.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Aarti, Thanks for bringing up some interesting points. You say, > Why is "hurt sentiment" a bad thing in itself? > Can having one's sentiments > hurt, sometimes quite badly, not be a positive force? Might > it not impell me > to re-think, or think, about my sentiments in a manner that > is creative? Normative statements like "positive force" are either meaningless or at the very least have different meanings across value frameworks.So, for example, a religious person might actually be channelizing a "positive force", when he or she protests against Hussein or Mohammed's cartoons.I am not arguing in favor of,or against the feeling of hurt or the actions resulting thereof;just pointing out that many a times there can be no ethical argument against,just because there could be two different sets of ethics. Neither does this so called "positive force" need have an inner locus of control.Without drawing any analogies,I would say that the case for any particular locus of control,internal or external,by an individual or collective,can't stand by itself.There has to be some other consequationalist argument made,for or against it. Furthermore,a point has been made by you and many others about the "monopoly of hurt" by religious people.To put it simply,this is just not true! Are you aware that those European nations, the newspapers of which were busy publishing Mohammed's cartoons actually have laws against people who question the holocaust? One can go to jail if you,for example,one makes a claim that the number of deaths reported in the holocaust were not realistic,and in fact ,some people are serving term on this account. I,as an atheist,can recount several instances in India which offend me.For example,I have heard the tape of some inflammatory speeches by Sadhvi Ritambhara.I am glad that it is classified as hate speech and she is not allowed to do her thing overtly,on media.There are several other examples.Consider a situation when we have hate speech in visual and print media against homosexuals,other religions etc.Can an atheist and\or liberal be insensitive to that kind of discourse? Just to restate my opinion,this issue is more political than ethical,in terms of how two groups with opposing value systems negotiate,coexist and achieve their collective and individual goals in a society.Again,in my opinion,groups should learn to reason with each other,and give and take.Each group may have to compromise some so called freedoms,which they take as given within their group,specially,when in this case,the fabric of the ethical system of a group lies on the very foundation the other group wants to abuse. regards Rahul --- On Thu, 9/4/08, Aarti Sethi wrote: > From: Aarti Sethi > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Ways of Life and Transgressions > To: "inder salim" > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Thursday, September 4, 2008, 2:42 PM > A few thoughts on an interesting discussion. > > One term I think that has remained unexamined in this > discussion is "hurt" > or "sentiment". By this I mean not an assessment > of whether that hurt is > justified, valid etc, who is to decide whether this offends > or not, whether > this is offensive or not, the relative self-sufficiency of > value systems and > speaking across them. But the inherent value of hurt as a > positive force in > itself. Let me try and explain what I mean. > > Why is "hurt sentiment" a bad thing in itself? > Can having one's sentiments > hurt, sometimes quite badly, not be a positive force? Might > it not impell me > to re-think, or think, about my sentiments in a manner that > is creative? > Maybe those sentiments are better discarded. Maybe my > outrage alerts me to a > violence I have been commiting without realising it. Maybe > if more people's > sentiments were outraged a little more forcefully, then we > would be living > in a far more democratic and tolerant world. > > Further, I do not see why only religious communities have a > monopoly on > sentiments which can then be hurt. As a feminist, my > sentiments are > assaulted on a routine and regular basis. As someone who > believes in a > version of social justice and equality, once articulated > by, but not only > by, Marx for instance, my feelings are continually trampled > over. As someone > who believes in a secular vision, the discussions on this > list offend me > everyday. However i do not see this being taken very > seriously. And it > needn't, that is the point. It is up to me to alchemize > this outrage, hurt, > sadness in a manner that enables me to live and act in the > world. > > This is actually how we live our lives generally. My > mother, or father, or > lover, or friend might say something that hurts me > terribly. Not always is > this clarified, discussed, put in its right perspective. > All our lives are > all littered with silent archives of hurts we have never > expressed. There is > no heroic moment in which resolution is sought for hurts. > And no one can do > this for anyone... > > The recent Vogue advertisements doing the rounds, around > which there has > been some discussion on this list, have hurt the sentiments > of many people. > A few years ago another set of advertisements for brand > equity in which two > tribal women are shown discussing the tans they have got in > Monte Carlo to > an accompanying snide and contemptous copy which said > something about how > advertisers need to accurately reach their consumers, also > outraged many of > us. Having thought about this, I realised that though both > the Vogue ads and > the brand equity ads trouble me, they do so in different > ways. > > The Vogue ads can be read in one of many ways - that it > posits a horizon of > desire that is unachievable for the people it uses for the > ad. In some sense > then the frisson of the ad derives from the discrepancy in > what is desired > and what is possible. Further it assumes that their horizon > of desire will > follow the trajectory laid out by Vogue. But most > interesting to me is that > both Vogue and the critics work with a fixed definition of > poverty in the > first place, and certain trajectory of the direction a > life can take. > > The second set of ads function on precisely the opposite > principle. Rather > than positing an eventual horizon of desire, they deem a > present life as > failed, and urges us to recognise its failure. It presumes > and makes me > complicit in a social consensus in which we can use > languages in a manner as > if we are all agreed on the terms in operation. > > Can you see the difference in both ads? They both trouble > me deeply, but > they trouble me in different ways. How is this at all > useful, or valuable? I > think it is. I think to be able to carefully work through > how and why and in > what ways something arrives to me and what it disturbs is a > critical thing, > if we are to fashion any sort of language to deal with the > violence of the > present. > > with regards > Aarti > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From indersalim at gmail.com Sun Sep 14 19:11:38 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 19:11:38 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] From Delhi after Bombings In-Reply-To: <27C6FBD6-DD18-482C-834C-6F243A8291EF@sarai.net> References: <7C6074A3-C3E5-41AB-AC2E-F09BDED017A3@sarai.net> <27C6FBD6-DD18-482C-834C-6F243A8291EF@sarai.net> Message-ID: <47e122a70809140641m730760c4i4225fab9b778bad4@mail.gmail.com> Dear Shuddha, all It is my third occasion when I was very close to a Bomb Blast. First in Batmaloo Kashmir- I was meters away from the Blast in 1990. The second one happened in Delhi. I was doing a performance in Tranvancore Hosue, K.G. Marg, which was about an idea to blast a fire cracker . I had to wrap myself entirely with recent and old newspapers, to be circular form and look like a sac. And after that I had to lit the fire cracker for a blast, almost in my hands. The idea was that I will phone to different friends and ask a question immediately after a blast. The replied text would be displayed immediately on paper through written word. Now, just after I blasted the fire cracker, which had some impact on me, I could not immediately connect my mobile with friends to complete the performance. That time obviously I could not think why. I tried and tried again, but finally one or two calls matured. But the whole performance frustrated me because of my mobile displaying ' busy network' .It was only after the performance that we came to know about the Blasts which happened almost at the same time - the previous serial blasts in Delhi. That time, I forgot about the whole performance itself, let alone its failure. In a strange way, I was closer to a Bomb blast in Delhi than I was in Kashmir. And today, when I was in Mandi House the Bomb blast happened on Barakhamba Road, one Metro stop away from the tragic scene. Just before the blast I met a friend who told me that Keshav Malik ( Art critic ) wanted to meet me in connection with some exhibition on Kashmir. Now, after knowing about the blast, I phoned Keshav Malik who told me that he is just returning from an Art Opening in which he was talking about violence, moments before the blasts happened. We concluded the conversation on phone with 'unfortunate and sad'. The life goes on. Those who died are not alive, and those who are injured are being treated in places like 'hospitals' and after couple of days we will forget it and resume our business as normal. That is how we say ' life goes on. Public is already going through 'the spectacle of media'. Every known figure will gets her/his two minutes in front of the camera. The actors and their directors who performed it are content, and those who are on the opposite side of the fence too will discover contentment though their well crafted statements. That is why I ask myself. ' Do I know what 'sadness' means in actuality of thought? Well, there are different kinds of deaths, but I want to know what is death, philosophically, politically and poetically? For example, I don't know why we have been experiencing 'Wars' since thousands of years if life is so beautiful in the first place. Have those hostile conditions disappeared which were responsible for those sequel of 'fights' between clans and then tribes, regions and then between countries. Have those insecurities disappeared which made two individuals fight for survival, and continuity of race. I guess in many ways we are going though a series of crises which in essence are not different from those which prevailed thousands of years ago. We often talk about Guerrilla Wars. I believe, these animals have an instinct to attack the enemy from behind, not in front of eyes, with an aim to achieve the results without much loss to their own life. In fact every war has adopted this technique. We have spies, we have diplomats who do it peacefully. Finally it comes to treaties, exchange of ideas, trade and commerce etc for a civil society. I feel strange. Now this civil society is supposed to take care of its citizenry, which it finds an impossible a task, to commit itself to the cause of uplifting each and every individual that contributes to the functioning of the structures of the very civil society. Mathematically and otherwise, we find it difficult to implement equality as we understand through a constitution, and therefore, a ready-made uncertainty for all of us. A representative body does construct a road, offers health facilities, and even arrange charities. But everything is just sustaining itself through a continuous exploitation of natural resources, and a simultaneous mismanagement of it. These resources usually come from the areas which are quite busy either in the process of perfecting their systems or are reeling under the bad impact of erstwhile colonial rules, or are unwittingly taken in by the seduction of the so called development. In any case these systems will finally demand a constant supply of resources to sustain the structures which they espouse for the continuity of life as we see it. But meanwhile a lot of vital gets brushed under the carpet. To keep that ' brushed under the carpet' under the thumb, or the oppressed rebels who bounce back, and follow their footsteps, whatever the case, we do have a history of countless exploitation of labour from poor countries, whipping out of entire civilizations from particular areas, and what not. Least but not the last, we need to steal oil from the fields of the others to maintain the charm of our cities. So the war keep on going, like life keeps on going. Sometimes, it is just a word 'sad' that gives me a clue to feel the metaphysical nature of wars on this earth. I remember Ghalib. Bas ki duswar hai har kaam ka assan hona, aadmi ko bi moyasar nahin insaan hona. The rough translation : ( impossible it is to resolve the conflict, to be a become human being is not available to a homo sapien even.) Love is p.s these poor homeless children sometimes had to hide their money in the ( homeless ) shit, which is often a Rs.10 or 20 currency note .because they don't know when police or someone within their own world will take away that money on this pretext or that On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 11:29 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear all, > > Thanks to all those who have begun responding off list and on list to > this post. In my bleary eyed early morning sleeplessness, I made a > mistake about today's date in the body of the posting. The fragment > that reads - 'in the early hours of the 13th of September' should > obviously read, 'in the early hours of the 14th of September.' > > I think we should also remind ourselves that many precious lives were > saved by the alertness of what the morning's newspapers chose to call > 'rag-pickers'. These itinerant informal entrepreneurs of waste and > residue (often so-called 'illegal' emigrants from Bangladesh) when > they escape anonymity, are usually vilified as a shadowy, quasi- > criminal, underclass who sniff glue, act as scouts for criminals and > terrorists, and harbour all sorts of malingerers. The police > regularly thrashes them, extorts money from them, and occasionally, a > pious NGO or two will dignify those amongst them with a slightly > firmer entitlement to 'legality' with 'Identity Cards' , so that the > thrashings of the police can be a little softened from time to time. > This only means that those with precarious claims to Indian > citizenship, (those with an obviously east Bengali sibilance to their > speech) get thrashed harder, setting off a mini civil war between the > 'deserving' and the 'un-deserving' poor born of a triangulation of > the enigma of Indian citizenship, NGO activism and the blunt edge of > a regulation Delhi Police lathi. > > So here is a salute to all those called 'rag pickers' in Delhi, > regardless of whether or not they can be decorated with the fig leaf > of Indian citizenship. In the end, they have proved at least in this > instance, that as far as saving lives are concerned, they do a better > job than the police. > > regards, > > Shuddha > > > On 14-Sep-08, at 3:18 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > >> Driving through the city of New Delhi after midnight, in the early >> hours of the 13th of September, one could mistake the eerie calm in >> the broad avenues that skirt the hollow centre of Lutyens Delhi as >> the lull of a city tranquil and asleep to itself and the world. >> >> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com Sun Sep 14 20:39:53 2008 From: prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com (Prabhakar Singh) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 08:09:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The Azadi We Need Message-ID: <759205.41464.qm@web31503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> We should not forget that we are Indians first ! Religion comes much later.Separatism and violence in the name of religion should be rejected by the society very strongly.But I see most of the so-called intellectuals of this group are taking pride in creating a feeling of separatism which is a criminal anti-national activity.Such people are resposible for creating hatred and violence.Should we not be sincerely concerned about the precios lives lost of innocent people in Delhi blast yesterday? Is it enough to shed our crocodile tear every time such blast occurs and follow the same path of creating a divide to ensure the next blast and continued loss of innocent people? We all are resposible for all that is happening. Prabhakar ----- Original Message ---- From: "radhikarajen at vsnl.net" To: Partha Dasgupta Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Sunday, 14 September, 2008 3:57:32 PM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Azadi We Need Really good thoughts, but the likes of Inder salim with hidden agenda of their faith do not understand, nor do they have the will to appreciate the way of life, insaniyath, of which they talk and earn wealth out such glib talks.! ----- Original Message ----- From: Partha Dasgupta Date: Sunday, September 14, 2008 3:42 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Azadi We Need To: inder salim Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Hi, > > There are a lot of 'strange pasts' from Bangladesh to Tibet and > others. > We could go back to 'British Rule' or other points in history, > which won't > make a difference. Today is here and now with a burning Kashmir > and a > burning Jammu at odds with each other. > > Let us not talk of 'nationalism' as most of us pay taxes (and > can't recourse > to creative accountants as we can't afford it) which a large part > of goes > into sustenance of J&K where the Hindu's have had to flee from. > > What is gone can't be brought back. Let's look at now and what can > be done. > > Even the inhospitable Tibet has been annexed by China and a 'free' > Kashmirwill never be free - especially so when Pakistan is torn > apart by the > militancy as well as lack of free governance. As a case in point, > 'AzadKashmir' is far more repressed that the 'Indian Occupied > Kashmir'. Look at > Pakistan's acceptance of US armed attacks. > > So let's take a clear eyed look at what is and what can be done. > > I have many dear friends (and they are friends - not because they > are Muslim > or Christian or... but because they are friends), many who called > yesterdayto ask if I was safe after the blast - irrespective of > the fact that some > were Muslims. > > This sinking into a haze of 'we poor Muslims' is defeat and if > that's what > you want to do, then no one can stop you. I debate with Pawan & > others on > the same factors. Look ahead and look at what can be done for > peace & life > instead of hate and defeat. > > Look at the militancy in Kashmir as well as the blasts in Delhi. I > certainlywant the police checks in Delhi so that my children can > go safely. Sure, I > had a number of stops and was slowed down, but would rather have > that than > my family's life being endangered. > > What's your case? > > You ask for 'Liberty'. So do I - from this fear that I may one day > come back > home to children torn up in a blast of 'freedom fighters' as > ridiculous as > the 'pro-lifers' who kill to prove their point. > > All I'm saying is that fanaticism in any form is dangerous and if > we do not > raise our voice against it today, then our silence will be taken as > agreement just as it was accepted that 'Hindus' agreed with the > breaking of > Babri Masjid, and now that 'Muslims' support the terrorist blasts. > > It's time we move beyond this mass grouping and make up our own > minds as to > what we want to say instead of being a part of the herd. > > Rgds, Partha > ..................... > > On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 1:20 PM, inder salim > wrote: > > > History is a strange past. If  Nepal was under British rule,  Sardar > > Patel might have loved to begin the formation of Indian Union from > > there itself; and by now it might have been part of Uttaranchal, or > > just another state by the name Nepal District;  with its erestwhile > > princes and kings drinking French wine at IIC. It is just a > matter of > > chance that that did not happen. Instead of that we have a wonderful > > beginning in Nepal under a new leadership. India has no > hesitation to > > recognise it, although the fact remains that Maoist ways of > achieving> it have been criticized by MEA in no other terms but > Terrorism.> > > J&K too was not part of British Rule in 1947. It is just a > matter of > > chance that Kashmir could not achieve the status of a Free > Nation that > > time. ( I know the word 'Nation' sounds shitty ).  It had all the > > ingredients which Nepal had. The only difference, here is that Nepal > > had Hindus and Kashmir had Muslims.  No one has an answer, what > ruined> the dream of Sheikh Modh. Abudlah, as Mr. Kak said that > even now, > > "none of us can as yet lay claim to saying that we know what the > > movement aims at no one can say" . But still we don't know why Nepal > > is a free country and why  Kashmir is not.  We know dreams, > after a > > while get blurred and the priorities shift. New things emerge, while > > history keeps on mocking at us, which intrigues me, sometimes very > > funnily. > > > > So, it is indeed difficult to write on Kashmir. It is, perhaps easy > > for those who a single line of action to offer, mainly those who are > > overtly nationalistic. After reading, Roy, Muhajir and then > Sanjay, I > > feel that Kashmir is really a strange land. Something is surreal > about> the land. Its people, its past and history makes it unique. > If one > > looks at the recent poetry of Kashmir in kashmiri, one can feel that > > its unique past is still reverberating in its veins, which is quite > > different from what is being written in urdu or in English.  It is > > simply different. I imagine the constitution of a Free New > Kashmir in > > Kashmiri.  The language will itself oust the hardliners. The > terrible> face of Nation State too might soften. But as we know, > fortunately or > > unfortunately, we are wedded to  History which is known to all > of us. > > But that is not all, most of us know that,  but cant do much about > > that. History is the puzzle which we are actually trying to solve. > > > > The muslim character is Kashmir is simple a matter of fact and > nothing> beyond.  And as Ronald Barthes  writes, there is nothing > which is > > called a matter of fact. SAS Geelani will disagree,  but deep down, > > people in Kashmir want to celebrate life, not fundamentalism. People > > in Nepal too finally don't need a King or a declaration that > Nepal is > > a Hindu State. Kashmir too can refurbish its true credentials. > But as > > Shuddha, too said that fundamentalism and its terror tactics only > > strengthen the State. "The only winner is state". So paradoxically, > > our too much of attention on Muslim factor in Kashmir is making > things> worst for the core meaning of  Kashmiriyat ( the word, > prostituted by > > the  State Machinery over the years, but I still use it, although > > there can be a Kashmiri equivalent to it, but let us preserve > that for > > the proposed constitution, here, I hope, 'kashmirityat' would > suffice> ). But, the British ways of implementing partition made > it impossible > > for us to see something other than a Hindu or a Muslim reality. We > > have a history, which is quite painful. And for the abscess of those > > inflicted wounds , we are still looking for British ( western ) > > anti-biotics, which heals but without a guarantee to heal it at the > > core. Kashmiris still have a chance to throw up an agenda which > can be > > based on a simple understanding of its own poets and saints. They > > might succeeded where a great Hero like Sheikh Mohd Abudullh failed. > > > > If there is a movement, in Kashmir beyond the basic demand for > removal> of Security forces from Kashmir and restoration of > dignity in the > > daily life, then it has to be based on some thought of civil society > > where people can talk, express freely and sit seriously to talk > about> the future of humanity on this earth. A simple aversion of > Indian Tri > > colour will not lead to some long lasting results, as Ms. Roy also > > highlighted 'Doubt ' in her text on Azadi in Kashmir > > > > "Liberty has no refuge in the jurisprudence of doubt" I don't > remember> who said it, but it does speak about the necessity of > doubt in the > > present, even if it means a delay for those who march on path of ' > > safray azadi'.  To unravel the unpredictable of the present we > have no > > other chance but to ' wait and watch' as Sanjay hinted. All > > calculations might collapse.  I  just am trying to emancipate > myself> more on the subject : Kahseer > > > > With love > > > > > > On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 11:13 PM, Sanjay Kak > wrote: > > > Thanks, Jeebesh, for posting Umair Ahmed Muhajir's piece "The > Azadi We > > Need" > > > > http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20080904&fname=umair&sid=1> > > > > The Sarai list has robustly reflected the recent revival of > interest in > > the > > > idea of Kashmir's Azadi, and I think many of us would be in > synch with > > the > > > despair reflected in Muhajir's understanding of the monstrous > contours of > > > the modern nation state, especially as it has unfolded in our > part of the > > > world–India, Pakistan, Bangladesh... > > > > > > What I do not share is the certainity with which he–like many > writers in > > > recent weeks both here and in other public forums in India–have > > visualised a > > > possible Azad Kashmir. Perhaps because few in Kashmir have > been able to > > > spell out their vision, our assumptions have flooded in and > filled the > > > space. One of these is that Azadi necessarily means an Islamic > Nation.> > Certainly there are pointers from some of the political > leaders of the > > > movement that this may be the idea. Syed Ali Shah Geelani has > spoken of > > the > > > centrality of Islam in his vision, and no doubt there are > other elements > > in > > > the Hurriyat that would concur. (Although even here it is an open > > question > > > whattheir Islamic role model is: Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, > Malaysia, Syria, > > > Qatar? Or another: Kashmir,) But surely it cannot be the case > that what > > > Geelani says, or what elements of the Hurriyat hint at can be > taken as > > > conclusive in our understanding of the aspirations for Azadi? > (Especially> > when most people who draw these conclusions are > also the first to > > question > > > the representative character of Geelani or the Hurriyat!) > > > > > > Our discussions of where Kashmir is headed is already moving > so giddily > > > ahead of the state of play, that sometimes I get the sensation > that these > > > are not really conversations about Kashmir, and the abominable > situation> > there, but really about our anxieties about > ourselves. (Here I use "our" > > for > > > those of whose of us who do not see ourselves as Kashmiris–so > Indians,> > Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, whoever.) > > > > > > Let us for a moment ignore the hardliners in the public > discourse, the G > > > Parthasarathy, K Subrahmanyam, Harish Khare (and for comic relief, > > Jaitirath > > > Rao) line on Kashmir. (In a nutshell: fry them). > > > Let's turn to the liberal discourse, where however > sophisticated the > > > language, and however much sympathy for the "ordinary > Kashmiri" is > > evoked, > > > the main preoccupation seems to be around what a possible Azad > > Kashmir–one > > > which wears it Muslim majority and its Islamic character on its > > sleeve–will > > > do to the idea of Indian secularism, to Indian democracy, and > to India's > > > Muslims. In India, for example, the failure to fulfill the > aspirations of > > a > > > Secular, Socialist, Democratic Republic that We The People > were promised, > > > seem to hinge entirely on whether or not Kashmir continues to > be part of > > > India... How fragile is this notion of the Secular Socialist > Democracy> that > > > it hinges entirely on a part of the map that has never > enthusiastically> > embraced the geographical entity that bounds > that ideal! > > > > > > So too in Muhajir's otherwise excellent discussion of the > Nation State, > > > Kashmir is only the peg upon which the larger anxiety hangs. I > tended to > > > read his piece as a lament about the failure of our nations to > meet the > > > aspirations of our decolonising imaginations. About what he > calls the > > Azadi > > > We Need. > > > > > > To say, as Muhajir does, that "the idea of an independent > Kashmir for > > > Kashmiris must be resisted precisely because, as the > experience of the > > > once-colonised has amply illustrated, nation-states are > appallingly> inhuman" > > > is a suggestion of some casual brutality. And when he says > that "nothing > > in > > > the Kashmiri independence movement suggests that it will throw up > > anything > > > different; indeed given that the movement aims at a traditional > > nation-state > > > just like all the others, I submit that it cannot yield a > different> result", > > > I can only wonder at his certainity of whatthe movement aims > at. He is > > > asking us not just to doubt, or raise a red-flag of warning, > but to > > "resist" > > > because he believes that an Independent Kashmir may turn into > the monster > > > with the big floppy ears and the sharp tusks? Remember the Six > Blind Men > > of > > > Hindustan, and the Elephant? > > > > > > Because in the absence of democracy, in the absence of free > and fearless > > > politics, and in the presence of a quite monstrous apparatus of > > occupation, > > > none of us can as yet lay claim to saying that we know what > the movement > > > aims at. > > > > > > The discomfort with the Nation State is a valid one. If indeed > there are > > > those within the movement who casually think of such an > entity, then they > > > would do well to make themselves familiar with the arguments > Mohajir> > assembles against it. But for the vast majority of > people in the valley, > > the > > > idea of Azadi does not as yet have such elaborate contours. It > still> means > > > removing the Army, bringing back some elementary dignity into > everyday> life. > > > We can lay the charge at the door of the Separatist leadership > that they > > > have failed to start that conversation about what Kashmir > could be like. > > But > > > before we "resist" the idea of Azadi we–and here I speak of > Indians–must> > also take on board our complicity in a system that > has not allowed any > > form > > > of genuine democratic process to emerge in Kashmir, not just > since 1989 > > when > > > the armed conflict broke out, but for at least three decades > before that. > > > > > > And what if, in the absence of another workable alternative > that they can > > > come up with, or indeed we can offer them, they still choose > the tattered > > > and torn robes of the Nation State? Will we say to them that their > > struggle > > > is meaningless, their suffering inconsequential, the > repression they have > > > dealt with somehow appropriate? Because they don't understand > the perils > > of > > > the Nation State they must cease to resist? > > > > > > In recent weeks, one can see the furry edges of the Establishment > > fluffing > > > up in defence of old atrophied positions. Forget the > Intelligence Bureau > > > plants and the Home Ministry hand-outs. Academics Sumit > Ganguly and Kanti > > > Bajpai, separately and together, placed a series of articles > all over the > > > national and international media that set up a sort of Qualifying > > Standard > > > to Permit Secession. Minimally you are required to say Yes to the > > following: > > > Genocide? Ethnic flooding? Major human rights violations? > Since India has > > > fallen short on all counts, they aver, with only 70,000 dead, > and No > > Major > > > human rights violations, the Standard is not met . Sorry then. > No case > > for > > > Azadi. > > > Who set up this Gold Standard, and who calibrates it? > > > > > > While it is not my intention to place Muhajir's arguments on > the same > > shelf > > > as the Hawks and the Hawks-in-Dove-feathers, I bring them together > > because > > > collectively they serve the same end-result: "This may not end > up the way > > WE > > > want it, so lets just wait and watch". > > > > > > That was the position that British Liberals could well have > taken in the > > > years before Independence: hand over India to the Hindu > Mahasabha? The > > > Muslim League? To Gandhi?. > > > Better a part of Empire than to allow India to destroy itself > under the > > > weight of its own contradictions. > > > > > > That has been the position of liberal Indians for at least > twenty–if not > > > sixty–years. Frozen in a rigor mortis of wilful ignorance, > political> > correctness, and theoretical purity. > > > > > > This may not be The Azadi They Need. > > > > > > Sanjay Kak > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list> > List archive: > > > > > > > > -- > > > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > +919811047132 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Download prohibited? No problem. CHAT from any browser, without download. Go to http://in.webmessenger.yahoo.com/ From indersalim at gmail.com Sun Sep 14 20:42:53 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 20:42:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Azadi We Need In-Reply-To: References: <5c5369880809131043i178f0b7aida91ec46b2ee3e62@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70809140812h15537ba7oc832f9986b1fd8a4@mail.gmail.com> Yes, Mahmood Bhai When you mention , Jinnah, I think of Dastangoi, What a wonderful and thought provoking performance that was. I wish I had recorded that for friends in Kashmir. But there are Jinnah lovers in Kashmir, still. So physically, your performance might not be such a welcome move in Kashmir, right now at least. Sheikh Mohd Abdullah was called as Qaid-a-Sani which mean second to the first. The First was indeed Qaid-a-Azam, Jinnah himself. But, I guess Sheik was truly the first. He was truly a hero, in real sense, a towering personality, full of courage. He succeeded where Gandhi and Jinnah failed. If there was no blood on the streets in 1947, it was Kashmir. Rest of it, as we know was just a horror. Sheikh Mohd Abdullah was truly interested in a new Kashmir. He was a great friend of India. Remember, in 1947, it was quite impossible for any one to think beyond India and Pakistan. It was just about a Hindu or a Muslim. But Sheikh had a foresight. And 1971 proved that he was right. But what failed him is the coterie around him, and friends who betrayed. Sheikh Mohd Abudulah is not a respected leader in Kashmir any more, which is sad. If Nehru had the courage to declare a free Kashmir ( with or without Jammu ) and provided protection to it from Jinnah's Pakistan, history might have been different. Alas ! Love is On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 1:59 PM, mahmood farooqui wrote: > Sanjay, I share your concern about Umair's casal disengagement with the > oppression in kashmir and with the liberationist impulse implicit in the > kasmiri uprising. > > Yes, Azadi may take a form that we cannot anticipate. But as Mukul Kesavan > pointed out to Shuddha we have to extrapolate on the outcomes from the gamut > of the existing pointers. And it is the Azadi seekers who need to deliberate > more on what they are going to do. Not just that we will do it better. > > We have heard his before from Jinnah--we will protect our minorities > (better). > > 2008/9/13 Sanjay Kak > >> Thanks, Jeebesh, for posting Umair Ahmed Muhajir's piece "The Azadi We >> Need" >> http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20080904&fname=umair&sid=1 >> >> The Sarai list has robustly reflected the recent revival of interest in the >> idea of Kashmir's Azadi, and I think many of us would be in synch with the >> despair reflected in Muhajir's understanding of the monstrous contours of >> the modern nation state, especially as it has unfolded in our part of the >> world–India, Pakistan, Bangladesh... >> >> What I do not share is the certainity with which he–like many writers in >> recent weeks both here and in other public forums in India–have visualised >> a >> possible Azad Kashmir. Perhaps because few in Kashmir have been able to >> spell out their vision, our assumptions have flooded in and filled the >> space. One of these is that Azadi necessarily means an Islamic Nation. >> Certainly there are pointers from some of the political leaders of the >> movement that this may be the idea. Syed Ali Shah Geelani has spoken of the >> centrality of Islam in his vision, and no doubt there are other elements in >> the Hurriyat that would concur. (Although even here it is an open question >> what their Islamic role model is: Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Malaysia, Syria, >> Qatar? Or another: Kashmir,) But surely it cannot be the case that what >> Geelani says, or what elements of the Hurriyat hint at can be taken as >> conclusive in our understanding of the aspirations for Azadi? (Especially >> when most people who draw these conclusions are also the first to question >> the representative character of Geelani or the Hurriyat!) >> >> Our discussions of where Kashmir is headed is already moving so giddily >> ahead of the state of play, that sometimes I get the sensation that these >> are not really conversations about Kashmir, and the abominable situation >> there, but really about our anxieties about ourselves. (Here I use "our" >> for >> those of whose of us who do not see ourselves as Kashmiris–so Indians, >> Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, whoever.) >> >> Let us for a moment ignore the hardliners in the public discourse, the G >> Parthasarathy, K Subrahmanyam, Harish Khare (and for comic relief, >> Jaitirath >> Rao) line on Kashmir. (In a nutshell: fry them). >> Let's turn to the liberal discourse, where however sophisticated the >> language, and however much sympathy for the "ordinary Kashmiri" is evoked, >> the main preoccupation seems to be around what a possible Azad Kashmir–one >> which wears it Muslim majority and its Islamic character on its sleeve–will >> do to the idea of Indian secularism, to Indian democracy, and to India's >> Muslims. In India, for example, the failure to fulfill the aspirations of a >> Secular, Socialist, Democratic Republic that We The People were promised, >> seem to hinge entirely on whether or not Kashmir continues to be part of >> India... How fragile is this notion of the Secular Socialist Democracy that >> it hinges entirely on a part of the map that has never enthusiastically >> embraced the geographical entity that bounds that ideal! >> >> So too in Muhajir's otherwise excellent discussion of the Nation State, >> Kashmir is only the peg upon which the larger anxiety hangs. I tended to >> read his piece as a lament about the failure of our nations to meet the >> aspirations of our decolonising imaginations. About what he calls the Azadi >> We Need. >> >> To say, as Muhajir does, that "the idea of an independent Kashmir for >> Kashmiris must be resisted precisely because, as the experience of the >> once-colonised has amply illustrated, nation-states are appallingly >> inhuman" >> is a suggestion of some casual brutality. And when he says that "nothing in >> the Kashmiri independence movement suggests that it will throw up anything >> different; indeed given that the movement aims at a traditional >> nation-state >> just like all the others, I submit that it cannot yield a different >> result", >> I can only wonder at his certainity of what the movement aims at. He is >> asking us not just to doubt, or raise a red-flag of warning, but to >> "resist" >> because he believes that an Independent Kashmir may turn into the monster >> with the big floppy ears and the sharp tusks? Remember the Six Blind Men of >> Hindustan, and the Elephant? >> >> Because in the absence of democracy, in the absence of free and fearless >> politics, and in the presence of a quite monstrous apparatus of occupation, >> none of us can as yet lay claim to saying that we know what the movement >> aims at. >> >> The discomfort with the Nation State is a valid one. If indeed there are >> those within the movement who casually think of such an entity, then they >> would do well to make themselves familiar with the arguments Mohajir >> assembles against it. But for the vast majority of people in the valley, >> the >> idea of Azadi does not as yet have such elaborate contours. It still means >> removing the Army, bringing back some elementary dignity into everyday >> life. >> We can lay the charge at the door of the Separatist leadership that they >> have failed to start that conversation about what Kashmir could be like. >> But >> before we "resist" the idea of Azadi we–and here I speak of Indians–must >> also take on board our complicity in a system that has not allowed any form >> of genuine democratic process to emerge in Kashmir, not just since 1989 >> when >> the armed conflict broke out, but for at least three decades before that. >> >> And what if, in the absence of another workable alternative that they can >> come up with, or indeed we can offer them, they still choose the tattered >> and torn robes of the Nation State? Will we say to them that their struggle >> is meaningless, their suffering inconsequential, the repression they have >> dealt with somehow appropriate? Because they don't understand the perils of >> the Nation State they must cease to resist? >> >> In recent weeks, one can see the furry edges of the Establishment fluffing >> up in defence of old atrophied positions. Forget the Intelligence Bureau >> plants and the Home Ministry hand-outs. Academics Sumit Ganguly and Kanti >> Bajpai, separately and together, placed a series of articles all over the >> national and international media that set up a sort of Qualifying Standard >> to Permit Secession. Minimally you are required to say Yes to the >> following: >> Genocide? Ethnic flooding? Major human rights violations? Since India has >> fallen short on all counts, they aver, with only 70,000 dead, and No Major >> human rights violations, the Standard is not met . Sorry then. No case for >> Azadi. >> Who set up this Gold Standard, and who calibrates it? >> >> While it is not my intention to place Muhajir's arguments on the same shelf >> as the Hawks and the Hawks-in-Dove-feathers, I bring them together because >> collectively they serve the same end-result: "This may not end up the way >> WE >> want it, so lets just wait and watch". >> >> That was the position that British Liberals could well have taken in the >> years before Independence: hand over India to the Hindu Mahasabha? The >> Muslim League? To Gandhi?. >> Better a part of Empire than to allow India to destroy itself under the >> weight of its own contradictions. >> >> That has been the position of liberal Indians for at least twenty–if not >> sixty–years. Frozen in a rigor mortis of wilful ignorance, political >> correctness, and theoretical purity. >> >> This may not be The Azadi They Need. >> >> Sanjay Kak >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 14 20:46:40 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 08:16:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The Azadi We Need In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <499855.73164.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> I look forward to reflections that will be posted about “The Azadi We Need” by Umair Ahmed Muhajir (UAM). Thank you Jeebesh for posting the article.   On this List there are many people in whom one can see a confluence of what are two basically contradictory positions. They are dismissive of the “Nation State” and “Nationalism” and at the same time are supportive of the Kashmir “Azadi”. There is an inherent hypocrisy in this because all that they are doing is seeking to reject Indian Nationalism and favouring Kashmir Nationalism even as they elsewhere constantly proclaim that they are ‘against’ Nationalism and ‘against’ the concept of Nation States.   In his very competently written piece, UAM dismisses the “Azadi” call in Kashmir since he sees it as an attempt to carve out another “Nation State” out of the existing Indian “Nation State”.   UAM’s repugnance is for a Nation State of any hue. His dismissal of Kashmir “Azadi” (and of Arundhati Roy’s “rallying cry” in its support) is based on questioning what, in the the name of “Azadi,” is being sought to be “let loose on the world” and questioning “the logic that they and would-be nationalists of all stripes have attempted to replicate for decades”.   In UAM’s view, all of this Kashmir “Azadi” movement(s), if successful, would only lead to yet another “Nation State” and so he finds no merit in it. The “Azadi” that UAM is looking for is described by him as  “the freedom we need is azadi from the mindset that thinks of peoples and communities only in terms of nation-states”.   On a personal note - in UAM’s favoured recognition of “Azadi” I too subscribe to the expansiveness of attitude that one should not think of “peoples and communities” ONLY in terms of Nation States. I say that to and for myself, as one who subscribes to and fervently argues in support of Nation States since I see them as (currently at least) the only credible practically functional system for organized societies. Without any qualification, I completely share UAM’s desire for “an azadi that demands that the Indian state honour its promise, to itself and to us.”   UAM does not contest Arundhati Roy’s “critique -- of the Indian state's indifference, its callousness, its inhumanity, its cruelty” since UAM recognizes that India as a Nation State “does what nation-states do: in the final analysis, sacrifice humanity in the service of a larger political project.”   At the same time UAM says with confidence that  “nothing in the Kashmiri independence movement suggests that it will throw up anything different; indeed given that the movement aims at a traditional nation-state just like all the others, I submit that it cannot yield a different result.”   Giving examples of “Minority rights? Justice for different communities, and between genders?” UAM does not see any difference in the aims of the (Azadi) ‘movement’ and those of the “existing Indian state”.   UAM rather sarcastically tells Arundhati Roy that she did “well not to linger” over her “thought experiment”  where she wondered “what the independence demanded by the state's Muslim majority might mean for the state's religious or other minorities”. UAM suggests that “”””identities of those disadvantaged will shift, as new disfavoured minorities, new "outsiders", new "insiders", and new identity policemen””””””   UAM finds disingenuous any sidelining of such concerns with any excuse that it was “merely a question of the Kashmiri separatists not having spelled out their agenda in greater detail as yet”. UAM asks “Why would one ever hope for anything different from a nation-state for Kashmiris, as far as those who don't fit the bill are concerned?”   Even as UAM sees little hope for Kashmir “Azadi” not resulting in “refugees” and “victims”, he argues against the Kashmir “Azadi” by saying “people -- should have learned long ago that partitions are not the solution to people's inability to live together; rather, the mindset that vests its faith in drawing easily-policed borders is a mindset that demands enemies. ……..A nation-state for Muslims thus becomes a state virtually free of non-Muslims; a sub-national state where Hindu pride is honoured above all else becomes a state where non-Hindus must know their place.”    UAM does not place any trust in the “outcomes” from the Kashmir “Azadi” being any better than the situations in the “existing Indian state” just on the the basis of “being told by the movement” that the “movement will simply do a better job.”  Sounding skeptical about the “secular” drumbeats of the “likes of Yasin Malik” he sees them, even if accepted, as being no different from the “Nehruvian show on a smaller stage” and sees no reason for believing that they would “yield a better result”   UAM reckons that a "Kashmir for Kashmiris" is in fact further away from Nehru’s India  and more like the idea of Pakistan and Bangladesh. He fears that “The promise of the Kashmiri movement combines both of these nightmares.” (The killings, displacements and creation of disadvantaged groups).   I just could not put my finger on it. UAM makes an intriguing statement that both the Kashmir and Pakistan movements are “explicitly predicated on a favoured community that is less than everyone who lives within the state's borders.” This has many possible interpretations but UAM makes it clear that “Muslim majority” is not what he is talking about.   UAM sees “second class citizenship” implicit in the Kashmir “Azadi” and sees that as hypocritical when compared to (taken from his Blog and is not included in the Outlook article) “nation-states where “second-class” citizenship is explicit, where it is part of the very logic of the state.”   UAM brings about a fascinating distinction between Nation States where some are better than the others although he considers them all accountable in the “moral responsibility for the horrors it perpetrates” and “all of them problematic, all of them complicit in cruelty”   UAM finds more complicit and more problematic the group of Nation States like  “Germany, Switzerland, Italy, Pakistan, and, based on the logic of the movements, the would-be nation-states of Kashmir or Khalistan”  since they are “premised on explicit notions of religion, language, ethnicity”   Against them he finds better the group of Nation States like “the contemporary United States, Brazil, South Africa, and, yes, India”. As UAM puts it  “Theoretically, one does not need to be other than "wholly Bengali", "wholly Tamil", or "wholly Muslim" in order to be utterly Indian; one cannot say the same of Pakistan and its Hindus citizens, and the religious colour of the Kashmiri movement means it is almost inconceivable that this won't be true of an independent Kashmir as well (even leaving aside the obvious ethnic dimension).”   I have reproduced much of what was written by UAM. My purpose was to lay down a structure (hopefully without misrepresenting what UAM said/meant) that would lead to the asking of some questions which I think are important in connection with the “Kashmir Azadi” and for which I invite serious and sober comments/answers:   1. When “Azadi” is spoken about in connection with Kashmir, what is the geography of that “Kashmir”?   2. The ‘contours of the movement’ and ‘elements of Azadi‘  in Indian Controlled Kashmir are fairly well know even if not well understood. If the “geography” of the Kashmir “Azadi” covers the ‘erstwhile Princely State of Jammu and Kashmir as it stood Pre-1947-Partition’ then what are the ‘contours of the movement’ and the ‘elements of Azadi’ in Pakistan Controlled Kashmir? What are the synergies between the two? When and How will the two merge?   3. If the Kashmir “Azadi” does not cover Pakistan Controlled Kashmir, Why not?   4. Will the Kashmir “Azadi” lead to a “New Country”?   5. How will this New Nation State be better than the Indian Nation State as far as Indian Controlled Kashmir is concerned? What will make it better?   6. What will the Constitution (briefly) of this New Country be?   7. On what specific points will the Constitution of this New Country be different from the Constitution of India? In what specific aspects will the Constitution of this New Country be better than the Constitution of India?     Kshmendra Kaul   --- On Thu, 9/11/08, Jeebesh wrote: From: Jeebesh Subject: [Reader-list] The Full text... To: "Sarai Reader-list" Date: Thursday, September 11, 2008, 7:50 PM http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20080904&fname=umair&sid=1 The Azadi We Need The azadi demanded by the Kashmiri movement, and used by Roy as a rallying cry, is not the answer. The freedom we need is azadi from the mindset that thinks of peoples and communities only in terms of nation- states; and equally, an azadi that demands that the Indian state honour its promise, to itself and to us. Umair Ahmed Muhajir Towards the end of her impassioned piece calling for azadi for Kashmir, Arundhati Roy pauses to reflect on what might follow azadi in Kashmir, wondering what an independent Kashmir might mean, including what the independence demanded by the state's Muslim majority might mean for the state's religious or other minorities. She does well not to linger, because the thought experiment illustrates precisely what is most problematic about "national movements", namely that they are unable to think the political except through the prism of nation-states. National movements, that is to say, see themselves as nation-states-in- waiting, and do not see any political horizon beyond that of the nation-state. So was it with the Indian national movement, and its inability to think the difference that might have been capacious enough to house the country's Muslim-majority regions; so it definitely was with the Muslim League and its two-nation theory, even more wedded to the siren song of European-style nationalism transplanted to a colonial setting; and so it is with the "copycat" nationalisms that have followed, be it Kashmir, or Punjab, or Nagaland. The failure to imagine a nation-state different from the traditional European model, the shoe-horning of Indian communitarian identities, into models conceived with the likes of Germany and England in mind, paved the way for the catastrophes of partition. The "belated" nationalisms of the post-partition sub-continent demonstrate the truth of Marx's depressing observation, namely that we learn from history that we do not learn from history. The point is worth making given Roy's trenchant critiques of the Indian state (in the context of Kashmir, but not only of Kashmir; her essay on the Indian state and dams, The Greater Common Good, is astonishingly powerful). That is, much of Roy's critique -- of the Indian state's indifference, its callousness, its inhumanity, its cruelty -- is (or certainly ought to be) animated not by her target's Indianness, but by the fact that it is a nation-state, and as such, does what nation-states do: in the final analysis, sacrifice humanity in the service of a larger political project. The distinction is an important one, because nothing in the Kashmiri independence movement suggests that it will throw up anything different; indeed given that the movement aims at a traditional nation-state just like all the others, I submit that it cannot yield a different result. Minority rights? Justice for different communities, and between genders? The outcomes will be better than they are now, we are told by the movement, not because the aims are different from those of the existing Indian state, but because the movement will simply do a better job. I am skeptical, and not because of the identity (religious or otherwise) of those who comprise the Kashmiri independence movement; I am skeptical because the aim of that movement is congenitally incapable of producing a result that is "better" in some cosmic sense -- at most the identities of those disadvantaged will shift, as new disfavoured minorities, new "outsiders", new "insiders", and new identity policemen are created. Roy is too sophisticated not to see this, but doesn't bother to delve into it, pretending that this is merely a question of the Kashmiri separatists not having spelled out their agenda in greater detail as yet. It is not: over half a century ago, Hannah Arendt wrote (in The Origins of Totalitarianism) of the masses of refugees and victims that seemed to accompany the birth of every new nation-state, and nothing has changed, not in the age of South Ossetia, Kosovo, Rwanda, ad nauseum. Certainly, those of us from the sub-continent should be especially wary of political projects that promise us clean solutions to intractable political problems: we live with the legacies of the bloodbaths of the 1940s, not to mention innumerable later, "lesser" massacres. By all accounts, the leaders of the new nation-states of India and Pakistan were caught by surprise by the scale of the violence in 1947; they had evidently internalized the logic of colonialism, pursuant to which communitarian difference presents a political "problem" that may be solved by means of creative cartography and judicious population transfers. Conceptual neatness is one of the hallmarks of the colonial mindset (thinking of Cyril Radcliffe, who could doubt it?). Unfortunately, reality is anything but, and the sub-continent's leaders -- and, even more importantly, its people -- should have learned long ago that partitions are not the solution to people's inability to live together; rather, the mindset that vests its faith in drawing easily-policed borders is a mindset that demands enemies. It is a mindset that, in the final analysis, demands that facts on the ground correspond to the political project of the nation-state (and not the other way around). A nation-state for Muslims thus becomes a state virtually free of non-Muslims; a sub-national state where Hindu pride is honoured above all else becomes a state where non-Hindus must know their place. Why would one ever hope for anything different from a nation-state for Kashmiris, as far as those who don't fit the bill are concerned? Certainly the region is not short of candidates for stigmatisation (some of this is because India is fantastically diverse; some of it is because nation-states are rather gifted at manufacturing "problematic" identities): Buddhists; Shiites; Gujjars; perhaps even Sunni Muslims who will be deemed insufficiently supportive of the independence movement (the last is hardly far-fetched, as even a casual glance at the history of Algeria or the Khalistan movement, or Kashmir itself during the 1990s, makes clear). Indeed, several hundred thousand Kashmiri Pandits have already been driven off, and it is hard not to see in them a harbinger of more to come. The above might seem like an odd place from which to maintain a defense of India vis-à-vis Kashmir. It is, on the contrary, a natural vantage point: the idea of an independent Kashmir for Kashmiris must be resisted precisely because, as the experience of the once-colonised has amply illustrated, nation-states are appallingly inhuman. Equally, however, they are not all inhuman in precisely the same way; nor are they all equally inhuman, by which I simply mean that they are not all equally incapable of accommodating human difference, whether communitarian or otherwise. The Germany of 2008 is manifestly not the Germany of 1938; but nor does the Germany of 2008 accommodate ethnic minorities as comfortably as the United States does. None of this relieves any state of moral responsibility for the horrors it perpetrates; but in order to agitate against horrors, one must first understand what they are. And within the range of nation-states on offer -- all of them problematic, all of them complicit in cruelty -- it is apparent to me that those premised on explicit notions of religion, language, ethnicity, blood in some sense, are more problematic, more complicit, than those with far more modest litmus tests. The contemporary United States, Brazil, South Africa, and, yes, India, are among the latter group of nation-states; Germany, Switzerland, Italy, Pakistan, and, based on the logic of the movements, the would-be nation-states of Kashmir or Khalistan, are not. Theoretically, one does not need to be other than "wholly Bengali", "wholly Tamil", or "wholly Muslim" in order to be utterly Indian; one cannot say the same of Pakistan and its Hindus citizens, and the religious colour of the Kashmiri movement means it is almost inconceivable that this won't be true of an independent Kashmir as well (even leaving aside the obvious ethnic dimension). Indeed, even if one were to take the likes of Yasin Malik at their word, they promise no more than Jawaharlal Nehru did, that is to say a secular state where all who live in Kashmir, of whatever ethnicity or religious persuasion, will be equal in the eyes of the state; why and how could such a project -- essentially the same Nehruvian show on a smaller stage -- yield a better result? On the contrary, all the signs are that an independent Kashmir would be more like Pakistan than India: not because both are Muslim majority (that is irrelevant to the point I am making), but because both movements are explicitly predicated on a favoured community that is less than everyone who lives within the state's borders. Why does any of this matter? Because nation-states where "second- class" citizenship is implicit -- think the United States prior to de- segregation; I assume Roy would include India; but really one could argue some are always more equal than others in all nation-states -- can be called out on their failures. Such nation-states are guilty of hypocrisy, but hypocrisy is not the worst sin; indeed hypocrisy, by opening up a gap between theory and practice, between promise and reality, makes it possible to hold a mirror up to the state, to try and compel it to honour its own promise to itself; and enables us to argue that the nation-state is only imperfectly itself until it takes a good long look in that mirror. In short, the point is that while the Jim Crow South is unforgiveable, the civil rights movement and Martin Luther King's "I Have a Dream" moment are possible in a USA where actual practice made a mockery of the nation-state's constitutional guarantees of equal protection under the laws; they would not be possible in the face of apartheid South Africa, which could not be reformed, simply destroyed. It is far more difficult, perhaps insurmountably so, to call the nation-state to task where it has promised and can promise nothing different than what it offers (one can rebel and try and dismantle the state, but one can't make it see the problem): beyond a point, a "Pakistan for Pakistanis", that is to say for Pakistanis of all religious persuasions, would make no sense, and would undermine the national idea (substitute "ethnicities" for "religious communities" and the idea of Pakistan becomes more flexible; it should come as no surprise that the movement for ethnic justice, greater federalism, and rights for smaller provinces, has far more legs in Pakistan than any movement for the rights of religious minorities; ethnicity illustrates the potential flexibility, but also the limits, of the idea of Pakistan; and even with respect to ethnicity, the difference of even a Bengali Muslim identity that was deemed "too Hindu" could not be accommodated within the state). A "Kashmir for Kashmiris" is far closer to the idea of Pakistan than to the Nehru's India, and perhaps closest of all to Bangladesh, seeking to compress both 1947 and 1971 in one secessionist moment. Roy would do well to remember the "Biharis" stranded in refugee camps in Bangladesh since 1971, Muslim but not Bangladeshi enough; and she herself mentions the 1971 genocide of Bengalis by the Pakistani army, who were not Muslim enough. The promise of the Kashmiri movement combines both of these nightmares. None of this is about the decency or lack thereof of Mirwaiz Farooq, or Yasin Malik, or anyone else. The question isn't whether these are or are not upstanding politicians who genuinely believe that Kashmir belongs to all Kashmiris, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, or Sikh, or not; the more important question concerns the logic of what they let loose in the world (more accurately, the logic that they and would-be nationalists of all stripes have attempted to replicate for decades). The azadi demanded by the Kashmiri movement, and used by Roy as a rallying cry, is not the answer to that question; the freedom we need is azadi from the mindset that thinks of peoples and communities only in terms of nation-states; and equally, an azadi that demands that the Indian state honour its promise, to itself and to us. The nation-state as political Alpha and Omega was problematic in its European birthplaces to begin with; to continue to cling to it as the last best hope of ethnic or religious minorities in milieus like India's (or Africa's, or the Balkans'; pick your poison), in the wake of the man-made disasters that have befallen us over the last century, is nothing short of bankrupt. Umair Ahmed Muhajir is based in New York City. When not blogging at qalandari.blogspot.com or contributing to naachgaana.com, he makes a living as a lawyer. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From mahmood.farooqui at gmail.com Sun Sep 14 21:13:42 2008 From: mahmood.farooqui at gmail.com (mahmood farooqui) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 21:13:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Azadi We Need In-Reply-To: <47e122a70809140812h15537ba7oc832f9986b1fd8a4@mail.gmail.com> References: <5c5369880809131043i178f0b7aida91ec46b2ee3e62@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70809140812h15537ba7oc832f9986b1fd8a4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks Inder. But my brother has lately been asking me--is it possible for us to condone Jinnah for the demons that he could not have but known he was unleashing when he, tacitly, conceded that a fight for Muslims could be played as a fight for Islam. 2008/9/14 inder salim > Yes, Mahmood Bhai > > When you mention , Jinnah, I think of Dastangoi, What a wonderful and > thought provoking performance that was. I wish I had recorded that > for friends in Kashmir. But there are Jinnah lovers in Kashmir, > still. So physically, your performance might not be such a welcome > move in Kashmir, right now at least. > > Sheikh Mohd Abdullah was called as Qaid-a-Sani which mean second to > the first. The First was indeed Qaid-a-Azam, Jinnah himself. But, I > guess Sheik was truly the first. > > He was truly a hero, in real sense, a towering personality, full of > courage. He succeeded where Gandhi and Jinnah failed. If there was no > blood on the streets in 1947, it was Kashmir. Rest of it, as we know > was just a horror. > > Sheikh Mohd Abdullah was truly interested in a new Kashmir. He was a > great friend of India. Remember, in 1947, it was quite impossible for > any one to think beyond India and Pakistan. It was just about a Hindu > or a Muslim. But Sheikh had a foresight. And 1971 proved that he was > right. But what failed him is the coterie around him, and friends who > betrayed. > > Sheikh Mohd Abudulah is not a respected leader in Kashmir any more, > which is sad. If Nehru had the courage to declare a free Kashmir ( > with or without Jammu ) and provided protection to it from Jinnah's > Pakistan, history might have been different. Alas ! > > Love > is > > > On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 1:59 PM, mahmood farooqui > wrote: > > Sanjay, I share your concern about Umair's casal disengagement with the > > oppression in kashmir and with the liberationist impulse implicit in the > > kasmiri uprising. > > > > Yes, Azadi may take a form that we cannot anticipate. But as Mukul > Kesavan > > pointed out to Shuddha we have to extrapolate on the outcomes from the > gamut > > of the existing pointers. And it is the Azadi seekers who need to > deliberate > > more on what they are going to do. Not just that we will do it better. > > > > We have heard his before from Jinnah--we will protect our minorities > > (better). > > > > 2008/9/13 Sanjay Kak > > > >> Thanks, Jeebesh, for posting Umair Ahmed Muhajir's piece "The Azadi We > >> Need" > >> http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20080904&fname=umair&sid=1 > >> > >> The Sarai list has robustly reflected the recent revival of interest in > the > >> idea of Kashmir's Azadi, and I think many of us would be in synch with > the > >> despair reflected in Muhajir's understanding of the monstrous contours > of > >> the modern nation state, especially as it has unfolded in our part of > the > >> world–India, Pakistan, Bangladesh... > >> > >> What I do not share is the certainity with which he–like many writers in > >> recent weeks both here and in other public forums in India–have > visualised > >> a > >> possible Azad Kashmir. Perhaps because few in Kashmir have been able to > >> spell out their vision, our assumptions have flooded in and filled the > >> space. One of these is that Azadi necessarily means an Islamic Nation. > >> Certainly there are pointers from some of the political leaders of the > >> movement that this may be the idea. Syed Ali Shah Geelani has spoken of > the > >> centrality of Islam in his vision, and no doubt there are other elements > in > >> the Hurriyat that would concur. (Although even here it is an open > question > >> what their Islamic role model is: Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Malaysia, > Syria, > >> Qatar? Or another: Kashmir,) But surely it cannot be the case that what > >> Geelani says, or what elements of the Hurriyat hint at can be taken as > >> conclusive in our understanding of the aspirations for Azadi? > (Especially > >> when most people who draw these conclusions are also the first to > question > >> the representative character of Geelani or the Hurriyat!) > >> > >> Our discussions of where Kashmir is headed is already moving so giddily > >> ahead of the state of play, that sometimes I get the sensation that > these > >> are not really conversations about Kashmir, and the abominable situation > >> there, but really about our anxieties about ourselves. (Here I use "our" > >> for > >> those of whose of us who do not see ourselves as Kashmiris–so Indians, > >> Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, whoever.) > >> > >> Let us for a moment ignore the hardliners in the public discourse, the G > >> Parthasarathy, K Subrahmanyam, Harish Khare (and for comic relief, > >> Jaitirath > >> Rao) line on Kashmir. (In a nutshell: fry them). > >> Let's turn to the liberal discourse, where however sophisticated the > >> language, and however much sympathy for the "ordinary Kashmiri" is > evoked, > >> the main preoccupation seems to be around what a possible Azad > Kashmir–one > >> which wears it Muslim majority and its Islamic character on its > sleeve–will > >> do to the idea of Indian secularism, to Indian democracy, and to India's > >> Muslims. In India, for example, the failure to fulfill the aspirations > of a > >> Secular, Socialist, Democratic Republic that We The People were > promised, > >> seem to hinge entirely on whether or not Kashmir continues to be part of > >> India... How fragile is this notion of the Secular Socialist Democracy > that > >> it hinges entirely on a part of the map that has never enthusiastically > >> embraced the geographical entity that bounds that ideal! > >> > >> So too in Muhajir's otherwise excellent discussion of the Nation State, > >> Kashmir is only the peg upon which the larger anxiety hangs. I tended to > >> read his piece as a lament about the failure of our nations to meet the > >> aspirations of our decolonising imaginations. About what he calls the > Azadi > >> We Need. > >> > >> To say, as Muhajir does, that "the idea of an independent Kashmir for > >> Kashmiris must be resisted precisely because, as the experience of the > >> once-colonised has amply illustrated, nation-states are appallingly > >> inhuman" > >> is a suggestion of some casual brutality. And when he says that "nothing > in > >> the Kashmiri independence movement suggests that it will throw up > anything > >> different; indeed given that the movement aims at a traditional > >> nation-state > >> just like all the others, I submit that it cannot yield a different > >> result", > >> I can only wonder at his certainity of what the movement aims at. He is > >> asking us not just to doubt, or raise a red-flag of warning, but to > >> "resist" > >> because he believes that an Independent Kashmir may turn into the > monster > >> with the big floppy ears and the sharp tusks? Remember the Six Blind Men > of > >> Hindustan, and the Elephant? > >> > >> Because in the absence of democracy, in the absence of free and fearless > >> politics, and in the presence of a quite monstrous apparatus of > occupation, > >> none of us can as yet lay claim to saying that we know what the movement > >> aims at. > >> > >> The discomfort with the Nation State is a valid one. If indeed there are > >> those within the movement who casually think of such an entity, then > they > >> would do well to make themselves familiar with the arguments Mohajir > >> assembles against it. But for the vast majority of people in the valley, > >> the > >> idea of Azadi does not as yet have such elaborate contours. It still > means > >> removing the Army, bringing back some elementary dignity into everyday > >> life. > >> We can lay the charge at the door of the Separatist leadership that they > >> have failed to start that conversation about what Kashmir could be like. > >> But > >> before we "resist" the idea of Azadi we–and here I speak of Indians–must > >> also take on board our complicity in a system that has not allowed any > form > >> of genuine democratic process to emerge in Kashmir, not just since 1989 > >> when > >> the armed conflict broke out, but for at least three decades before > that. > >> > >> And what if, in the absence of another workable alternative that they > can > >> come up with, or indeed we can offer them, they still choose the > tattered > >> and torn robes of the Nation State? Will we say to them that their > struggle > >> is meaningless, their suffering inconsequential, the repression they > have > >> dealt with somehow appropriate? Because they don't understand the perils > of > >> the Nation State they must cease to resist? > >> > >> In recent weeks, one can see the furry edges of the Establishment > fluffing > >> up in defence of old atrophied positions. Forget the Intelligence Bureau > >> plants and the Home Ministry hand-outs. Academics Sumit Ganguly and > Kanti > >> Bajpai, separately and together, placed a series of articles all over > the > >> national and international media that set up a sort of Qualifying > Standard > >> to Permit Secession. Minimally you are required to say Yes to the > >> following: > >> Genocide? Ethnic flooding? Major human rights violations? Since India > has > >> fallen short on all counts, they aver, with only 70,000 dead, and No > Major > >> human rights violations, the Standard is not met . Sorry then. No case > for > >> Azadi. > >> Who set up this Gold Standard, and who calibrates it? > >> > >> While it is not my intention to place Muhajir's arguments on the same > shelf > >> as the Hawks and the Hawks-in-Dove-feathers, I bring them together > because > >> collectively they serve the same end-result: "This may not end up the > way > >> WE > >> want it, so lets just wait and watch". > >> > >> That was the position that British Liberals could well have taken in the > >> years before Independence: hand over India to the Hindu Mahasabha? The > >> Muslim League? To Gandhi?. > >> Better a part of Empire than to allow India to destroy itself under the > >> weight of its own contradictions. > >> > >> That has been the position of liberal Indians for at least twenty–if not > >> sixty–years. Frozen in a rigor mortis of wilful ignorance, political > >> correctness, and theoretical purity. > >> > >> This may not be The Azadi They Need. > >> > >> Sanjay Kak > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From indersalim at gmail.com Sun Sep 14 21:30:37 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 21:30:37 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Azadi We Need In-Reply-To: <499855.73164.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <499855.73164.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70809140900u730dc808j5508e98f48fdc607@mail.gmail.com> dear kshmendra your you are likely to get a long passionate reflection on your passionalte reflection on UAM's article which has already been passionnately reflected by Sanjay Kak, Vivek... I quote Sanjay, Because in the absence of democracy, in the absence of free and fearless politics, and in the presence of a quite monstrous apparatus of occupation, none of us can as yet lay claim to saying that we know what the movement aims at. Now if you see hypocrrisy in what is being talked about on kashmir, then you suggest, what are alternative ways of talking kashmir. One is to maintain Status Quo, the other the questioning. And we are all passionately questioning, and of course we all are outsiders to Kashmir conflict. We all are living in India and that is normal. But that does not mean we should not question. To be secptic is not such a bad idea after all. Jean paul Sartre questioned the occupation of Algeria by France, and lot of other Nationalists intyellcetuals criticized him for taking a stand against the country of which he was proud citizen, But history proved him right. The Nation State has failed on many accounts. So why no question that even. Why not to provide more and more autonomy to all the States in Indian union. 10 Janpath is not where God need to be. about question of a free Kashmir and the need to know its would be Geography is a valid one. But we dont know, no one has an answer, but absence of an answer does not mean that there is no question. regards and love is On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 8:46 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > I look forward to reflections that will be posted about "The Azadi We Need" by Umair Ahmed Muhajir (UAM). Thank you Jeebesh for posting the article. > > On this List there are many people in whom one can see a confluence of what are two basically contradictory positions. They are dismissive of the "Nation State" and "Nationalism" and at the same time are supportive of the Kashmir "Azadi". There is an inherent hypocrisy in this because all that they are doing is seeking to reject Indian Nationalism and favouring Kashmir Nationalism even as they elsewhere constantly proclaim that they are 'against' Nationalism and 'against' the concept of Nation States. > > In his very competently written piece, UAM dismisses the "Azadi" call in Kashmir since he sees it as an attempt to carve out another "Nation State" out of the existing Indian "Nation State". > > UAM's repugnance is for a Nation State of any hue. His dismissal of Kashmir "Azadi" (and of Arundhati Roy's "rallying cry" in its support) is based on questioning what, in the the name of "Azadi," is being sought to be "let loose on the world" and questioning "the logic that they and would-be nationalists of all stripes have attempted to replicate for decades". > > In UAM's view, all of this Kashmir "Azadi" movement(s), if successful, would only lead to yet another "Nation State" and so he finds no merit in it. The "Azadi" that UAM is looking for is described by him as "the freedom we need is azadi from the mindset that thinks of peoples and communities only in terms of nation-states". > > On a personal note - in UAM's favoured recognition of "Azadi" I too subscribe to the expansiveness of attitude that one should not think of "peoples and communities" ONLY in terms of Nation States. I say that to and for myself, as one who subscribes to and fervently argues in support of Nation States since I see them as (currently at least) the only credible practically functional system for organized societies. Without any qualification, I completely share UAM's desire for "an azadi that demands that the Indian state honour its promise, to itself and to us." > > UAM does not contest Arundhati Roy's "critique -- of the Indian state's indifference, its callousness, its inhumanity, its cruelty" since UAM recognizes that India as a Nation State "does what nation-states do: in the final analysis, sacrifice humanity in the service of a larger political project." > > At the same time UAM says with confidence that "nothing in the Kashmiri independence movement suggests that it will throw up anything different; indeed given that the movement aims at a traditional nation-state just like all the others, I submit that it cannot yield a different result." > > Giving examples of "Minority rights? Justice for different communities, and between genders?" UAM does not see any difference in the aims of the (Azadi) 'movement' and those of the "existing Indian state". > > UAM rather sarcastically tells Arundhati Roy that she did "well not to linger" over her "thought experiment" where she wondered "what the independence demanded by the state's Muslim majority might mean for the state's religious or other minorities". UAM suggests that """"identities of those disadvantaged will shift, as new disfavoured minorities, new "outsiders", new "insiders", and new identity policemen"""""" > > UAM finds disingenuous any sidelining of such concerns with any excuse that it was "merely a question of the Kashmiri separatists not having spelled out their agenda in greater detail as yet". UAM asks "Why would one ever hope for anything different from a nation-state for Kashmiris, as far as those who don't fit the bill are concerned?" > > Even as UAM sees little hope for Kashmir "Azadi" not resulting in "refugees" and "victims", he argues against the Kashmir "Azadi" by saying "people -- should have learned long ago that partitions are not the solution to people's inability to live together; rather, the mindset that vests its faith in drawing easily-policed borders is a mindset that demands enemies. ……..A nation-state for Muslims thus becomes a state virtually free of non-Muslims; a sub-national state where Hindu pride is honoured above all else becomes a state where non-Hindus must know their place." > > UAM does not place any trust in the "outcomes" from the Kashmir "Azadi" being any better than the situations in the "existing Indian state" just on the the basis of "being told by the movement" that the "movement will simply do a better job." Sounding skeptical about the "secular" drumbeats of the "likes of Yasin Malik" he sees them, even if accepted, as being no different from the "Nehruvian show on a smaller stage" and sees no reason for believing that they would "yield a better result" > > UAM reckons that a "Kashmir for Kashmiris" is in fact further away from Nehru's India and more like the idea of Pakistan and Bangladesh. He fears that "The promise of the Kashmiri movement combines both of these nightmares." (The killings, displacements and creation of disadvantaged groups). > > I just could not put my finger on it. UAM makes an intriguing statement that both the Kashmir and Pakistan movements are "explicitly predicated on a favoured community that is less than everyone who lives within the state's borders." This has many possible interpretations but UAM makes it clear that "Muslim majority" is not what he is talking about. > > UAM sees "second class citizenship" implicit in the Kashmir "Azadi" and sees that as hypocritical when compared to (taken from his Blog and is not included in the Outlook article) "nation-states where "second-class" citizenship is explicit, where it is part of the very logic of the state." > > UAM brings about a fascinating distinction between Nation States where some are better than the others although he considers them all accountable in the "moral responsibility for the horrors it perpetrates" and "all of them problematic, all of them complicit in cruelty" > > UAM finds more complicit and more problematic the group of Nation States like "Germany, Switzerland, Italy, Pakistan, and, based on the logic of the movements, the would-be nation-states of Kashmir or Khalistan" since they are "premised on explicit notions of religion, language, ethnicity" > > Against them he finds better the group of Nation States like "the contemporary United States, Brazil, South Africa, and, yes, India". As UAM puts it "Theoretically, one does not need to be other than "wholly Bengali", "wholly Tamil", or "wholly Muslim" in order to be utterly Indian; one cannot say the same of Pakistan and its Hindus citizens, and the religious colour of the Kashmiri movement means it is almost inconceivable that this won't be true of an independent Kashmir as well (even leaving aside the obvious ethnic dimension)." > > I have reproduced much of what was written by UAM. My purpose was to lay down a structure (hopefully without misrepresenting what UAM said/meant) that would lead to the asking of some questions which I think are important in connection with the "Kashmir Azadi" and for which I invite serious and sober comments/answers: > > 1. When "Azadi" is spoken about in connection with Kashmir, what is the geography of that "Kashmir"? > > 2. The 'contours of the movement' and 'elements of Azadi' in Indian Controlled Kashmir are fairly well know even if not well understood. If the "geography" of the Kashmir "Azadi" covers the 'erstwhile Princely State of Jammu and Kashmir as it stood Pre-1947-Partition' then what are the 'contours of the movement' and the 'elements of Azadi' in Pakistan Controlled Kashmir? What are the synergies between the two? When and How will the two merge? > > 3. If the Kashmir "Azadi" does not cover Pakistan Controlled Kashmir, Why not? > > 4. Will the Kashmir "Azadi" lead to a "New Country"? > > 5. How will this New Nation State be better than the Indian Nation State as far as Indian Controlled Kashmir is concerned? What will make it better? > > 6. What will the Constitution (briefly) of this New Country be? > > 7. On what specific points will the Constitution of this New Country be different from the Constitution of India? In what specific aspects will the Constitution of this New Country be better than the Constitution of India? > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > --- On Thu, 9/11/08, Jeebesh wrote: > > From: Jeebesh > Subject: [Reader-list] The Full text... > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > Date: Thursday, September 11, 2008, 7:50 PM > > http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20080904&fname=umair&sid=1 > > > The Azadi We Need > > The azadi demanded by the Kashmiri movement, and used by Roy as a > rallying cry, is not the answer. The freedom we need is azadi from the > mindset that thinks of peoples and communities only in terms of nation- > states; and equally, an azadi that demands that the Indian state > honour its promise, to itself and to us. > > Umair Ahmed Muhajir > > Towards the end of her impassioned piece calling for azadi for > Kashmir, Arundhati Roy pauses to reflect on what might follow azadi in > Kashmir, wondering what an independent Kashmir might mean, including > what the independence demanded by the state's Muslim majority might > mean for the state's religious or other minorities. She does well not > to linger, because the thought experiment illustrates precisely what > is most problematic about "national movements", namely that they are > > unable to think the political except through the prism of nation-states. > National movements, that is to say, see themselves as nation-states-in- > waiting, and do not see any political horizon beyond that of the > nation-state. So was it with the Indian national movement, and its > inability to think the difference that might have been capacious > enough to house the country's Muslim-majority regions; so it > definitely was with the Muslim League and its two-nation theory, even > more wedded to the siren song of European-style nationalism > transplanted to a colonial setting; and so it is with the "copycat" > nationalisms that have followed, be it Kashmir, or Punjab, or > Nagaland. The failure to imagine a nation-state different from the > traditional European model, the shoe-horning of Indian communitarian > identities, into models conceived with the likes of Germany and > England in mind, paved the way for the catastrophes of partition. The > "belated" nationalisms of the post-partition sub-continent > demonstrate > the truth of Marx's depressing observation, namely that we learn from > history that we do not learn from history. > The point is worth making given Roy's trenchant critiques of the > Indian state (in the context of Kashmir, but not only of Kashmir; her > essay on the Indian state and dams, The Greater Common Good, is > astonishingly powerful). That is, much of Roy's critique -- of the > Indian state's indifference, its callousness, its inhumanity, its > cruelty -- is (or certainly ought to be) animated not by her target's > Indianness, but by the fact that it is a nation-state, and as such, > does what nation-states do: in the final analysis, sacrifice humanity > in the service of a larger political project. The distinction is an > important one, because nothing in the Kashmiri independence movement > suggests that it will throw up anything different; indeed given that > the movement aims at a traditional nation-state just like all the > others, I submit that it cannot yield a different result. Minority > rights? Justice for different communities, and between genders? The > outcomes will be better than they are now, we are told by the > movement, not because the aims are different from those of the > existing Indian state, but because the movement will simply do a > better job. > > I am skeptical, and not because of the identity (religious or > otherwise) of those who comprise the Kashmiri independence movement; I > am skeptical because the aim of that movement is congenitally > incapable of producing a result that is "better" in some cosmic sense > > -- at most the identities of those disadvantaged will shift, as new > disfavoured minorities, new "outsiders", new "insiders", > and new > identity policemen are created. Roy is too sophisticated not to see > this, butdoesn't bother to delve into it, pretending that this is > merely a question of the Kashmiri separatists not having spelled out > their agenda in greater detail as yet. > > > It is not: over half a century ago, Hannah Arendt wrote (in The > Origins of Totalitarianism) of the masses of refugees and victims that > seemed to accompany the birth of every new nation-state, and nothing > has changed, not in the age of South Ossetia, Kosovo, Rwanda, ad > nauseum. > > > Certainly, those of us from the sub-continent should be especially > wary of political projects that promise us clean solutions to > intractable political problems: we live with the legacies of the > bloodbaths of the 1940s, not to mention innumerable later, "lesser" > massacres. By all accounts, the leaders of the new nation-states of > India and Pakistan were caught by surprise by the scale of the > violence in 1947; they had evidently internalized the logic of > colonialism, pursuant to which communitarian difference presents a > political "problem" that may be solved by means of creative > cartography and judicious population transfers. Conceptual neatness is > one of the hallmarks of the colonial mindset (thinking of Cyril > Radcliffe, who could doubt it?). > Unfortunately, reality is anything but, and the sub-continent's > leaders -- and, even more importantly, its people -- should have > learned long ago that partitions are not the solution to people's > inability to live together; rather, the mindset that vests its faith > in drawing easily-policed borders is a mindset that demands enemies. > It is a mindset that, in the final analysis, demands that facts on the > ground correspond to the political project of the nation-state (and > not the other way around). A nation-state for Muslims thus becomes a > state virtually free of non-Muslims; a sub-national state where Hindu > pride is honoured above all else becomes a state where non-Hindus must > know their place. > > Why would one ever hope for anything different from a nation-state for > Kashmiris, as far as those who don't fit the bill are concerned? > Certainly the region is not short of candidates for stigmatisation > (some of this is because India is fantastically diverse; some of it is > because nation-states are rather gifted at manufacturing > "problematic" > identities): Buddhists; Shiites; Gujjars; perhaps even Sunni Muslims > who will be deemed insufficiently supportive of the independence > movement (the last is hardly far-fetched, as even a casual glance at > the history of Algeria or the Khalistan movement, or Kashmir itself > during the 1990s, makes clear). Indeed, several hundred thousand > Kashmiri Pandits have already been driven off, and it is hard not to > see in them a harbinger of more to come. > > The above might seem like an odd place from which to maintain a > defense of India vis-à-vis Kashmir. It is, on the contrary, a natural > vantage point: the idea of an independent Kashmir for Kashmiris must > be resisted precisely because, as the experience of the once-colonised > has amply illustrated, nation-states are appallingly inhuman. Equally, > however, they are not all inhuman in precisely the same way; nor are > they all equally inhuman, by which I simply mean that they are not all > equally incapable of accommodating human difference, whether > communitarian or otherwise. The Germany of 2008 is manifestly not the > Germany of 1938; but nor does the Germany of 2008 accommodate ethnic > minorities as comfortably as the United States does. > None of this relieves any state of moral responsibility for the > horrors it perpetrates; but in order to agitate against horrors, one > must first understand what they are. > > > > > And within the range of nation-states on offer -- all of them > problematic, all of them complicit in cruelty -- it is apparent to me > that those premised on explicit notions of religion, language, > ethnicity, blood in some sense, are more problematic, more complicit, > than those with far more modest litmus tests. The contemporary United > States, Brazil, South Africa, and, yes, India, are among the latter > group of nation-states; Germany, Switzerland, Italy, Pakistan, and, > based on the logic of the movements, the would-be nation-states of > Kashmir or Khalistan, are not. Theoretically, one does not need to be > other than "wholly Bengali", "wholly Tamil", or > "wholly Muslim" in > order to be utterly Indian; one cannot say the same of Pakistan and > its Hindus citizens, and the religious colour of the Kashmiri movement > means it is almost inconceivable that this won't be true of an > independent Kashmir as well (even leaving aside the obvious ethnic > dimension). > > > Indeed, even if one were to take the likes of Yasin Malik at their > word, they promise no more than Jawaharlal Nehru did, that is to say a > secular state where all who live in Kashmir, of whatever ethnicity or > religious persuasion, will be equal in the eyes of the state; why and > how could such a project -- essentially the same Nehruvian show on a > smaller stage -- yield a better result? On the contrary, all the signs > are that an independent Kashmir would be more like Pakistan than > India: not because both are Muslim majority (that is irrelevant to the > point I am making), but because both movements are explicitly > predicated on a favoured community that is less than everyone who > lives within the state's borders. > > Why does any of this matter? Because nation-states where "second- > class" citizenship is implicit -- think the United States prior to de- > segregation; I assume Roy would include India; but really one could > argue some are always more equal than others in all nation-states -- > can be called out on their failures. Such nation-states are guilty of > hypocrisy, but hypocrisy is not the worst sin; indeed hypocrisy, by > opening up a gap between theory and practice, between promise and > reality, makes it possible to hold a mirror up to the state, to try > and compel it to honour its own promise to itself; and enables us to > argue that the nation-state is only imperfectly itself until it takes > a good long look in that mirror. > In short, the point is that while the Jim Crow South is unforgiveable, > the civil rights movement and Martin Luther King's "I Have a > Dream" > moment are possible in a USA where actual practice made a mockery of > the nation-state's constitutional guarantees of equal protection under > the laws; they would not be possible in the face of apartheid South > Africa, which could not be reformed, simply destroyed. It is far more > difficult, perhaps insurmountably so, to call the nation-state to task > where it has promised and can promise nothing different than what it > offers (one can rebel and try and dismantle the state, but one can't > make it see the problem): beyond a point, a "Pakistan for > Pakistanis", > that is to say for Pakistanis of all religious persuasions, would make > no sense, and would undermine the national idea (substitute > "ethnicities" for "religious communities" and the idea of > Pakistan > becomes more flexible; it should come as no surprise that the movement > for ethnic justice, greater federalism, and rights for smaller > provinces, has far more legs in Pakistan than any movement for the > rights of religious minorities; ethnicity illustrates the potential > flexibility, but also the limits, of the idea of Pakistan; and even > with respect to ethnicity, the difference of even a Bengali Muslim > identity that was deemed "too Hindu" could not be accommodated within > > the state). > > > A "Kashmir for Kashmiris" is far closer to the idea of Pakistan than > > to the Nehru's India, and perhaps closest of all to Bangladesh, > seeking to compress both 1947 and 1971 in one secessionist moment. Roy > would do well to remember the "Biharis" stranded in refugee camps in > > Bangladesh since 1971, Muslim but not Bangladeshi enough; and she > herself mentions the 1971 genocide of Bengalis by the Pakistani army, > who were not Muslim enough. The promise of the Kashmiri movement > combines both of these nightmares. > > None of this is aboutthe decency or lack thereof of Mirwaiz Farooq, > or Yasin Malik, or anyone else. The question isn't whether these are > or are not upstanding politicians who genuinely believe that Kashmir > belongs to all Kashmiris, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, or Sikh, or not; > the more important question concerns the logic of what they let loose > in the world (more accurately, the logic that they and would-be > nationalists of all stripes have attempted to replicate for decades). > The azadi demanded by the Kashmiri movement, and used by Roy as a > rallying cry, is not the answer to that question; the freedom we need > is azadi from the mindset that thinks of peoples and communities only > in terms of nation-states; and equally, an azadi that demands that the > Indian state honour its promise, to itself and to us. > The nation-state as political Alpha and Omega was problematic in its > European birthplaces to begin with; to continue to cling to it as the > last best hope of ethnic or religious minorities in milieus like > India's (or Africa's, or the Balkans'; pick your poison), in the > wake > of the man-made disasters that have befallen us over the last century, > is nothing short of bankrupt. > > > > > > Umair Ahmed Muhajir is based in New York City. When not blogging at > qalandari.blogspot.com or contributing to naachgaana.com, he makes a > living as a lawyer. > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From indersalim at gmail.com Sun Sep 14 21:43:42 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 21:43:42 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Azadi We Need In-Reply-To: References: <5c5369880809131043i178f0b7aida91ec46b2ee3e62@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70809140812h15537ba7oc832f9986b1fd8a4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70809140913k3dfcd635p443b7d14d08dc421@mail.gmail.com> Thanks my dear Histroy is such a bitchy subject, that we end up talking only about a Gandhi or a Jinnah. But there are hundreds of other doors to enter. It is a quagumire, but at least we free ourselves from a short cut to history which is to see Jinnah from India and Gandhi from Paskitan. Both can yeild wrong results. That is why i mentioned Sheikh, who can be restored to a true status when we are talking about towering personalities of 1947. incorporating so many others like Shiekh in the understaing of struggle for free India and creation of India and Pakistan, acutually might help us to understand a Jinnah and a Nehru i better than what we are doing now. I agree that Jinnah could not visualized the demon that partition unleashed. But that is preceisely how, these politicians who feel so confident while negotiating the destiney of millions fails when thing go out of control. People are still suffering from that methodology.# Dastangoi was indeed the most wonderful door to understand History. We need more such doors love and best of wishes to Danish as well is On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 9:13 PM, mahmood farooqui wrote: > Thanks Inder. But my brother has lately been asking me--is it possible for > us to condone Jinnah for the demons that he could not have but known he was > unleashing when he, tacitly, conceded that a fight for Muslims could be > played as a fight for Islam. > > 2008/9/14 inder salim >> >> Yes, Mahmood Bhai >> >> When you mention , Jinnah, I think of Dastangoi, What a wonderful and >> thought provoking performance that was. I wish I had recorded that >> for friends in Kashmir. But there are Jinnah lovers in Kashmir, >> still. So physically, your performance might not be such a welcome >> move in Kashmir, right now at least. >> >> Sheikh Mohd Abdullah was called as Qaid-a-Sani which mean second to >> the first. The First was indeed Qaid-a-Azam, Jinnah himself. But, I >> guess Sheik was truly the first. >> >> He was truly a hero, in real sense, a towering personality, full of >> courage. He succeeded where Gandhi and Jinnah failed. If there was no >> blood on the streets in 1947, it was Kashmir. Rest of it, as we know >> was just a horror. >> >> Sheikh Mohd Abdullah was truly interested in a new Kashmir. He was a >> great friend of India. Remember, in 1947, it was quite impossible for >> any one to think beyond India and Pakistan. It was just about a Hindu >> or a Muslim. But Sheikh had a foresight. And 1971 proved that he was >> right. But what failed him is the coterie around him, and friends who >> betrayed. >> >> Sheikh Mohd Abudulah is not a respected leader in Kashmir any more, >> which is sad. If Nehru had the courage to declare a free Kashmir ( >> with or without Jammu ) and provided protection to it from Jinnah's >> Pakistan, history might have been different. Alas ! >> >> Love >> is >> >> >> On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 1:59 PM, mahmood farooqui >> wrote: >> > Sanjay, I share your concern about Umair's casal disengagement with the >> > oppression in kashmir and with the liberationist impulse implicit in the >> > kasmiri uprising. >> > >> > Yes, Azadi may take a form that we cannot anticipate. But as Mukul >> > Kesavan >> > pointed out to Shuddha we have to extrapolate on the outcomes from the >> > gamut >> > of the existing pointers. And it is the Azadi seekers who need to >> > deliberate >> > more on what they are going to do. Not just that we will do it better. >> > >> > We have heard his before from Jinnah--we will protect our minorities >> > (better). >> > >> > 2008/9/13 Sanjay Kak >> > >> >> Thanks, Jeebesh, for posting Umair Ahmed Muhajir's piece "The Azadi We >> >> Need" >> >> http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20080904&fname=umair&sid=1 >> >> >> >> The Sarai list has robustly reflected the recent revival of interest in >> >> the >> >> idea of Kashmir's Azadi, and I think many of us would be in synch with >> >> the >> >> despair reflected in Muhajir's understanding of the monstrous contours >> >> of >> >> the modern nation state, especially as it has unfolded in our part of >> >> the >> >> world–India, Pakistan, Bangladesh... >> >> >> >> What I do not share is the certainity with which he–like many writers >> >> in >> >> recent weeks both here and in other public forums in India–have >> >> visualised >> >> a >> >> possible Azad Kashmir. Perhaps because few in Kashmir have been able to >> >> spell out their vision, our assumptions have flooded in and filled the >> >> space. One of these is that Azadi necessarily means an Islamic Nation. >> >> Certainly there are pointers from some of the political leaders of the >> >> movement that this may be the idea. Syed Ali Shah Geelani has spoken of >> >> the >> >> centrality of Islam in his vision, and no doubt there are other >> >> elements in >> >> the Hurriyat that would concur. (Although even here it is an open >> >> question >> >> what their Islamic role model is: Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Malaysia, >> >> Syria, >> >> Qatar? Or another: Kashmir,) But surely it cannot be the case that what >> >> Geelani says, or what elements of the Hurriyat hint at can be taken as >> >> conclusive in our understanding of the aspirations for Azadi? >> >> (Especially >> >> when most people who draw these conclusions are also the first to >> >> question >> >> the representative character of Geelani or the Hurriyat!) >> >> >> >> Our discussions of where Kashmir is headed is already moving so giddily >> >> ahead of the state of play, that sometimes I get the sensation that >> >> these >> >> are not really conversations about Kashmir, and the abominable >> >> situation >> >> there, but really about our anxieties about ourselves. (Here I use >> >> "our" >> >> for >> >> those of whose of us who do not see ourselves as Kashmiris–so Indians, >> >> Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, whoever.) >> >> >> >> Let us for a moment ignore the hardliners in the public discourse, the >> >> G >> >> Parthasarathy, K Subrahmanyam, Harish Khare (and for comic relief, >> >> Jaitirath >> >> Rao) line on Kashmir. (In a nutshell: fry them). >> >> Let's turn to the liberal discourse, where however sophisticated the >> >> language, and however much sympathy for the "ordinary Kashmiri" is >> >> evoked, >> >> the main preoccupation seems to be around what a possible Azad >> >> Kashmir–one >> >> which wears it Muslim majority and its Islamic character on its >> >> sleeve–will >> >> do to the idea of Indian secularism, to Indian democracy, and to >> >> India's >> >> Muslims. In India, for example, the failure to fulfill the aspirations >> >> of a >> >> Secular, Socialist, Democratic Republic that We The People were >> >> promised, >> >> seem to hinge entirely on whether or not Kashmir continues to be part >> >> of >> >> India... How fragile is this notion of the Secular Socialist Democracy >> >> that >> >> it hinges entirely on a part of the map that has never enthusiastically >> >> embraced the geographical entity that bounds that ideal! >> >> >> >> So too in Muhajir's otherwise excellent discussion of the Nation State, >> >> Kashmir is only the peg upon which the larger anxiety hangs. I tended >> >> to >> >> read his piece as a lament about the failure of our nations to meet the >> >> aspirations of our decolonising imaginations. About what he calls the >> >> Azadi >> >> We Need. >> >> >> >> To say, as Muhajir does, that "the idea of an independent Kashmir for >> >> Kashmiris must be resisted precisely because, as the experience of the >> >> once-colonised has amply illustrated, nation-states are appallingly >> >> inhuman" >> >> is a suggestion of some casual brutality. And when he says that >> >> "nothing in >> >> the Kashmiri independence movement suggests that it will throw up >> >> anything >> >> different; indeed given that the movement aims at a traditional >> >> nation-state >> >> just like all the others, I submit that it cannot yield a different >> >> result", >> >> I can only wonder at his certainity of what the movement aims at. He is >> >> asking us not just to doubt, or raise a red-flag of warning, but to >> >> "resist" >> >> because he believes that an Independent Kashmir may turn into the >> >> monster >> >> with the big floppy ears and the sharp tusks? Remember the Six Blind >> >> Men of >> >> Hindustan, and the Elephant? >> >> >> >> Because in the absence of democracy, in the absence of free and >> >> fearless >> >> politics, and in the presence of a quite monstrous apparatus of >> >> occupation, >> >> none of us can as yet lay claim to saying that we know what the >> >> movement >> >> aims at. >> >> >> >> The discomfort with the Nation State is a valid one. If indeed there >> >> are >> >> those within the movement who casually think of such an entity, then >> >> they >> >> would do well to make themselves familiar with the arguments Mohajir >> >> assembles against it. But for the vast majority of people in the >> >> valley, >> >> the >> >> idea of Azadi does not as yet have such elaborate contours. It still >> >> means >> >> removing the Army, bringing back some elementary dignity into everyday >> >> life. >> >> We can lay the charge at the door of the Separatist leadership that >> >> they >> >> have failed to start that conversation about what Kashmir could be >> >> like. >> >> But >> >> before we "resist" the idea of Azadi we–and here I speak of >> >> Indians–must >> >> also take on board our complicity in a system that has not allowed any >> >> form >> >> of genuine democratic process to emerge in Kashmir, not just since 1989 >> >> when >> >> the armed conflict broke out, but for at least three decades before >> >> that. >> >> >> >> And what if, in the absence of another workable alternative that they >> >> can >> >> come up with, or indeed we can offer them, they still choose the >> >> tattered >> >> and torn robes of the Nation State? Will we say to them that their >> >> struggle >> >> is meaningless, their suffering inconsequential, the repression they >> >> have >> >> dealt with somehow appropriate? Because they don't understand the >> >> perils of >> >> the Nation State they must cease to resist? >> >> >> >> In recent weeks, one can see the furry edges of the Establishment >> >> fluffing >> >> up in defence of old atrophied positions. Forget the Intelligence >> >> Bureau >> >> plants and the Home Ministry hand-outs. Academics Sumit Ganguly and >> >> Kanti >> >> Bajpai, separately and together, placed a series of articles all over >> >> the >> >> national and international media that set up a sort of Qualifying >> >> Standard >> >> to Permit Secession. Minimally you are required to say Yes to the >> >> following: >> >> Genocide? Ethnic flooding? Major human rights violations? Since India >> >> has >> >> fallen short on all counts, they aver, with only 70,000 dead, and No >> >> Major >> >> human rights violations, the Standard is not met . Sorry then. No case >> >> for >> >> Azadi. >> >> Who set up this Gold Standard, and who calibrates it? >> >> >> >> While it is not my intention to place Muhajir's arguments on the same >> >> shelf >> >> as the Hawks and the Hawks-in-Dove-feathers, I bring them together >> >> because >> >> collectively they serve the same end-result: "This may not end up the >> >> way >> >> WE >> >> want it, so lets just wait and watch". >> >> >> >> That was the position that British Liberals could well have taken in >> >> the >> >> years before Independence: hand over India to the Hindu Mahasabha? The >> >> Muslim League? To Gandhi?. >> >> Better a part of Empire than to allow India to destroy itself under the >> >> weight of its own contradictions. >> >> >> >> That has been the position of liberal Indians for at least twenty–if >> >> not >> >> sixty–years. Frozen in a rigor mortis of wilful ignorance, political >> >> correctness, and theoretical purity. >> >> >> >> This may not be The Azadi They Need. >> >> >> >> Sanjay Kak >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From indersalim at gmail.com Sun Sep 14 21:44:26 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 21:44:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Delhi blasts - hope all is well In-Reply-To: <4d47f9660809140904y1402043dt7818ca1ba83fc887@mail.gmail.com> References: <4d47f9660809140904y1402043dt7818ca1ba83fc887@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70809140914j3b7985cm27d86b095e911efb@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 9:34 PM, Raza Rumi wrote: > I was travelling when I heard about the blasts yesterday. What a horrible > thing to have happened and that too in the heart of wondrous Delhi. I just > hope that you and your family are safe. > This is a shameful act of terrorists - we in Pakistan are also suffering at > their hands. > Just to let you know that an overwhelming majority of Pakistanis condemn > this barbarity and sympathise with their neighbours. > best > Raza > > > > -- > www.razarumi.com > www.pakteahouse.wordpress.com > www.lahorenama.wordpress.com > www.taraqee.wordpress.com > > http://www.saatchi-gallery.co.uk/yourgallery/artist_profile//37094.html > > "..society is now one polished horde, > formed of two mighty tribes, the bores and bored." > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Sun Sep 14 23:17:13 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 23:17:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Azadi We Need In-Reply-To: <47e122a70809140913k3dfcd635p443b7d14d08dc421@mail.gmail.com> References: <5c5369880809131043i178f0b7aida91ec46b2ee3e62@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70809140812h15537ba7oc832f9986b1fd8a4@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70809140913k3dfcd635p443b7d14d08dc421@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0809141047i55045643o14d548d6ad1d02f3@mail.gmail.com> Dear Prabhakar, Thank you. You are absolutely right we are all responsible for what has happened in Delhi. Let me spell out some of the ways in which we are responsible. We are responsible for the fact that there has been continous violence against Christians in Kandhamal in Orissa for over 15 days with churches, houses and institutions being attacked and set on fire every day and still not one person has been arrested. Christians form 2.5 percent of the population in Orissa and today morning carries a statement by mr Narendra Modi saying that because conversion activity is changing the demographic profile there is violence. Praveen Togadia has been making incendiary speech singling institutions and persons out for attack and he's walking around. Why is this situation being allowed to continue, how can Modi make these statements and get away with it? How is it that while the state is quick to ban SIMI, on the scantiest of evidence, the Bajrang Dal and the VHP are not banned, when it has been proved that they are behind and involved in the attacks on Christians. We are responsible because till now the killers of thousands of Muslims in Gujarat are scot free, and in power. There have been convictions in only 2 cases : Best bakery, and everyone knows what was done to Zaheera in the course of this, and Bilqis Bano. Over 4000 people were killed. Why has nothing been done? We should be asking this question every day. Tehelka carried a chilling report last year where a journalist went underground and spoke to fucntionaries in the BJP and RSS who are on tape claiming they killed people, and has the court taken sou moto notice? NO. I am not justifyng terrorism. As we have seen terror does not choose its target. In that it is chillingly and ruthlessly democratic. There are no administrative solutions to terror. Can the state's eyes be everywhere? No. Do we want this? No. There are only political solutions. Rather than asking that more anti-terror legilation be enacted which only means that the state is armed with still more weapons with which to target communities, we should instead be asking that if the state takes seriously its commitment to wiping out terrorism then it address seriosuly the reasons why communities and groups feel increasingly insecure and alienated. There is no such thing as being "soft on terror". There is such a thing however as being soft on the known pepretrators of crimes against humanity such as Mr Narendra Modi. This morning, in a report in the TOI, Mr. Advani and other luminaries claimed that not hanging Afzal Guru is yet another instance of the reluctance to tackle terror. And what is the connection? And what will hanging Afsal Guru achieve? Another report in the TOI claimed that the police are especially suspicious of "neo-Dalit" converts to Islam as they are most likely to be behind such activities. What does this even mean? How can this sort of profiling be allowed? Let us not forget that one of the first instances of terrorism in this country occured actually in Mizoram, after the failure of the government to assuage severe famine conditions. This happend almost 50 years ago now when the flowering of bambo lead to a deluge of rats which ate up all the food. When the Mizoram National famine front was formed and an agitation began the Indian airforce was called in to carpet bomb Aizwal. And for the next 20 years there was an insurgency till the peace accord was signed in 1989. What happened in Delhi yesterday like what hapened 3 years ago, like what happened in Ahemadabad, Bangalore, Jaipur and Bombay is terrible and saddening. It makes all our lives insecure and fraught. But please please please, let us not use this moment to ask for greater terror as a response. Please let us not ask for Gujcoca or Pota or Poto or whatever new technique of coersion the government might devise. It is not a solution, it will not make anyone safer. It will only mean that more people can be shut away for less and less for longer and longer. What kind of soicety do we want to live in? Tomorrow we could all have a policeman with us at all times day and night, every street corner can have 50 surveillance cameras, why, we can even have pre-crime like in Minority Report - lets arrest people before the crime is even committed. We would all be utterly safe and utterly dead as a people. Yes things are in a crises, but please lets recognise what the terms of this crises are. in solidarity and in sadness Aarti On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 9:43 PM, inder salim wrote: > Thanks my dear > Histroy is such a bitchy subject, that we end up talking only about a > Gandhi or a Jinnah. But there are hundreds of other doors to enter. It > is a quagumire, but at least we free ourselves from a short cut to > history which is to see Jinnah from India and Gandhi from Paskitan. > Both can yeild wrong results. That is why i mentioned Sheikh, who can > be restored to a true status when we are talking about towering > personalities of 1947. incorporating so many others like Shiekh in the > understaing of struggle for free India and creation of India and > Pakistan, acutually might help us to understand a Jinnah and a Nehru i > better than what we are doing now. I agree that Jinnah could not > visualized the demon that partition unleashed. But that is preceisely > how, these politicians who feel so confident while negotiating the > destiney of millions fails when thing go out of control. People are > still suffering from that methodology.# > > Dastangoi was indeed the most wonderful door to understand History. > We need more such doors > > love and best of wishes to Danish as well > is > > On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 9:13 PM, mahmood farooqui > wrote: > > Thanks Inder. But my brother has lately been asking me--is it possible > for > > us to condone Jinnah for the demons that he could not have but known he > was > > unleashing when he, tacitly, conceded that a fight for Muslims could be > > played as a fight for Islam. > > > > 2008/9/14 inder salim > >> > >> Yes, Mahmood Bhai > >> > >> When you mention , Jinnah, I think of Dastangoi, What a wonderful and > >> thought provoking performance that was. I wish I had recorded that > >> for friends in Kashmir. But there are Jinnah lovers in Kashmir, > >> still. So physically, your performance might not be such a welcome > >> move in Kashmir, right now at least. > >> > >> Sheikh Mohd Abdullah was called as Qaid-a-Sani which mean second to > >> the first. The First was indeed Qaid-a-Azam, Jinnah himself. But, I > >> guess Sheik was truly the first. > >> > >> He was truly a hero, in real sense, a towering personality, full of > >> courage. He succeeded where Gandhi and Jinnah failed. If there was no > >> blood on the streets in 1947, it was Kashmir. Rest of it, as we know > >> was just a horror. > >> > >> Sheikh Mohd Abdullah was truly interested in a new Kashmir. He was a > >> great friend of India. Remember, in 1947, it was quite impossible for > >> any one to think beyond India and Pakistan. It was just about a Hindu > >> or a Muslim. But Sheikh had a foresight. And 1971 proved that he was > >> right. But what failed him is the coterie around him, and friends who > >> betrayed. > >> > >> Sheikh Mohd Abudulah is not a respected leader in Kashmir any more, > >> which is sad. If Nehru had the courage to declare a free Kashmir ( > >> with or without Jammu ) and provided protection to it from Jinnah's > >> Pakistan, history might have been different. Alas ! > >> > >> Love > >> is > >> > >> > >> On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 1:59 PM, mahmood farooqui > >> wrote: > >> > Sanjay, I share your concern about Umair's casal disengagement with > the > >> > oppression in kashmir and with the liberationist impulse implicit in > the > >> > kasmiri uprising. > >> > > >> > Yes, Azadi may take a form that we cannot anticipate. But as Mukul > >> > Kesavan > >> > pointed out to Shuddha we have to extrapolate on the outcomes from the > >> > gamut > >> > of the existing pointers. And it is the Azadi seekers who need to > >> > deliberate > >> > more on what they are going to do. Not just that we will do it better. > >> > > >> > We have heard his before from Jinnah--we will protect our minorities > >> > (better). > >> > > >> > 2008/9/13 Sanjay Kak > >> > > >> >> Thanks, Jeebesh, for posting Umair Ahmed Muhajir's piece "The Azadi > We > >> >> Need" > >> >> > http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20080904&fname=umair&sid=1 > >> >> > >> >> The Sarai list has robustly reflected the recent revival of interest > in > >> >> the > >> >> idea of Kashmir's Azadi, and I think many of us would be in synch > with > >> >> the > >> >> despair reflected in Muhajir's understanding of the monstrous > contours > >> >> of > >> >> the modern nation state, especially as it has unfolded in our part of > >> >> the > >> >> world–India, Pakistan, Bangladesh... > >> >> > >> >> What I do not share is the certainity with which he–like many writers > >> >> in > >> >> recent weeks both here and in other public forums in India–have > >> >> visualised > >> >> a > >> >> possible Azad Kashmir. Perhaps because few in Kashmir have been able > to > >> >> spell out their vision, our assumptions have flooded in and filled > the > >> >> space. One of these is that Azadi necessarily means an Islamic > Nation. > >> >> Certainly there are pointers from some of the political leaders of > the > >> >> movement that this may be the idea. Syed Ali Shah Geelani has spoken > of > >> >> the > >> >> centrality of Islam in his vision, and no doubt there are other > >> >> elements in > >> >> the Hurriyat that would concur. (Although even here it is an open > >> >> question > >> >> what their Islamic role model is: Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Malaysia, > >> >> Syria, > >> >> Qatar? Or another: Kashmir,) But surely it cannot be the case that > what > >> >> Geelani says, or what elements of the Hurriyat hint at can be taken > as > >> >> conclusive in our understanding of the aspirations for Azadi? > >> >> (Especially > >> >> when most people who draw these conclusions are also the first to > >> >> question > >> >> the representative character of Geelani or the Hurriyat!) > >> >> > >> >> Our discussions of where Kashmir is headed is already moving so > giddily > >> >> ahead of the state of play, that sometimes I get the sensation that > >> >> these > >> >> are not really conversations about Kashmir, and the abominable > >> >> situation > >> >> there, but really about our anxieties about ourselves. (Here I use > >> >> "our" > >> >> for > >> >> those of whose of us who do not see ourselves as Kashmiris–so > Indians, > >> >> Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, whoever.) > >> >> > >> >> Let us for a moment ignore the hardliners in the public discourse, > the > >> >> G > >> >> Parthasarathy, K Subrahmanyam, Harish Khare (and for comic relief, > >> >> Jaitirath > >> >> Rao) line on Kashmir. (In a nutshell: fry them). > >> >> Let's turn to the liberal discourse, where however sophisticated the > >> >> language, and however much sympathy for the "ordinary Kashmiri" is > >> >> evoked, > >> >> the main preoccupation seems to be around what a possible Azad > >> >> Kashmir–one > >> >> which wears it Muslim majority and its Islamic character on its > >> >> sleeve–will > >> >> do to the idea of Indian secularism, to Indian democracy, and to > >> >> India's > >> >> Muslims. In India, for example, the failure to fulfill the > aspirations > >> >> of a > >> >> Secular, Socialist, Democratic Republic that We The People were > >> >> promised, > >> >> seem to hinge entirely on whether or not Kashmir continues to be part > >> >> of > >> >> India... How fragile is this notion of the Secular Socialist > Democracy > >> >> that > >> >> it hinges entirely on a part of the map that has never > enthusiastically > >> >> embraced the geographical entity that bounds that ideal! > >> >> > >> >> So too in Muhajir's otherwise excellent discussion of the Nation > State, > >> >> Kashmir is only the peg upon which the larger anxiety hangs. I tended > >> >> to > >> >> read his piece as a lament about the failure of our nations to meet > the > >> >> aspirations of our decolonising imaginations. About what he calls the > >> >> Azadi > >> >> We Need. > >> >> > >> >> To say, as Muhajir does, that "the idea of an independent Kashmir for > >> >> Kashmiris must be resisted precisely because, as the experience of > the > >> >> once-colonised has amply illustrated, nation-states are appallingly > >> >> inhuman" > >> >> is a suggestion of some casual brutality. And when he says that > >> >> "nothing in > >> >> the Kashmiri independence movement suggests that it will throw up > >> >> anything > >> >> different; indeed given that the movement aims at a traditional > >> >> nation-state > >> >> just like all the others, I submit that it cannot yield a different > >> >> result", > >> >> I can only wonder at his certainity of what the movement aims at. He > is > >> >> asking us not just to doubt, or raise a red-flag of warning, but to > >> >> "resist" > >> >> because he believes that an Independent Kashmir may turn into the > >> >> monster > >> >> with the big floppy ears and the sharp tusks? Remember the Six Blind > >> >> Men of > >> >> Hindustan, and the Elephant? > >> >> > >> >> Because in the absence of democracy, in the absence of free and > >> >> fearless > >> >> politics, and in the presence of a quite monstrous apparatus of > >> >> occupation, > >> >> none of us can as yet lay claim to saying that we know what the > >> >> movement > >> >> aims at. > >> >> > >> >> The discomfort with the Nation State is a valid one. If indeed there > >> >> are > >> >> those within the movement who casually think of such an entity, then > >> >> they > >> >> would do well to make themselves familiar with the arguments Mohajir > >> >> assembles against it. But for the vast majority of people in the > >> >> valley, > >> >> the > >> >> idea of Azadi does not as yet have such elaborate contours. It still > >> >> means > >> >> removing the Army, bringing back some elementary dignity into > everyday > >> >> life. > >> >> We can lay the charge at the door of the Separatist leadership that > >> >> they > >> >> have failed to start that conversation about what Kashmir could be > >> >> like. > >> >> But > >> >> before we "resist" the idea of Azadi we–and here I speak of > >> >> Indians–must > >> >> also take on board our complicity in a system that has not allowed > any > >> >> form > >> >> of genuine democratic process to emerge in Kashmir, not just since > 1989 > >> >> when > >> >> the armed conflict broke out, but for at least three decades before > >> >> that. > >> >> > >> >> And what if, in the absence of another workable alternative that they > >> >> can > >> >> come up with, or indeed we can offer them, they still choose the > >> >> tattered > >> >> and torn robes of the Nation State? Will we say to them that their > >> >> struggle > >> >> is meaningless, their suffering inconsequential, the repression they > >> >> have > >> >> dealt with somehow appropriate? Because they don't understand the > >> >> perils of > >> >> the Nation State they must cease to resist? > >> >> > >> >> In recent weeks, one can see the furry edges of the Establishment > >> >> fluffing > >> >> up in defence of old atrophied positions. Forget the Intelligence > >> >> Bureau > >> >> plants and the Home Ministry hand-outs. Academics Sumit Ganguly and > >> >> Kanti > >> >> Bajpai, separately and together, placed a series of articles all over > >> >> the > >> >> national and international media that set up a sort of Qualifying > >> >> Standard > >> >> to Permit Secession. Minimally you are required to say Yes to the > >> >> following: > >> >> Genocide? Ethnic flooding? Major human rights violations? Since India > >> >> has > >> >> fallen short on all counts, they aver, with only 70,000 dead, and No > >> >> Major > >> >> human rights violations, the Standard is not met . Sorry then. No > case > >> >> for > >> >> Azadi. > >> >> Who set up this Gold Standard, and who calibrates it? > >> >> > >> >> While it is not my intention to place Muhajir's arguments on the same > >> >> shelf > >> >> as the Hawks and the Hawks-in-Dove-feathers, I bring them together > >> >> because > >> >> collectively they serve the same end-result: "This may not end up the > >> >> way > >> >> WE > >> >> want it, so lets just wait and watch". > >> >> > >> >> That was the position that British Liberals could well have taken in > >> >> the > >> >> years before Independence: hand over India to the Hindu Mahasabha? > The > >> >> Muslim League? To Gandhi?. > >> >> Better a part of Empire than to allow India to destroy itself under > the > >> >> weight of its own contradictions. > >> >> > >> >> That has been the position of liberal Indians for at least twenty–if > >> >> not > >> >> sixty–years. Frozen in a rigor mortis of wilful ignorance, political > >> >> correctness, and theoretical purity. > >> >> > >> >> This may not be The Azadi They Need. > >> >> > >> >> Sanjay Kak > >> >> _________________________________________ > >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From ambarien at yahoo.co.uk Sun Sep 14 09:35:27 2008 From: ambarien at yahoo.co.uk (ambarien qadar) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 04:05:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] Four Women and a Room: The Open Frame 2008 Message-ID: <885407.35178.qm@web25503.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Dear All, Apologies for cross-posting. I'd be happy if you could come for the screening of my new film 'Four Women and a Room' (DVCAM, 42 Minutes, English, Hindi with English subtitles) on Wednesday, 17th September at 4.30 pm at The Stein Auditorium, India Habitat Center, New Delhi. About the film: 'Four Women and a Room' unfolds as a story of four women and the diverse relationships they have with notions of nurturing and being mothers. Late into pregnancy, MILI is confounded with the unknown. Having gone through endless rituals of matchmaking, LATIKA is wondering about her desire to be a biological mother. The dreamscape of the FILMMAKER throws up images and associations of a hospital visited sometime back and reminds her of meeting KALPANA; an UNKNOWN WOMAN; who undergoes a sex selective abortion. The film is set against a backdrop of the emergence of 'choice' based New Reproductive Technologies and the history of how abortion came to be'legalised' in India. As against popular perception, The Medical Termination of Pregnancy Act 1971 originated from the population control imperatives of Indian State, not from pro-choice arguments of feminist politics. Under a government aided programme, abortion of female foetuses became the preferred method of population control between 1970-80s. Despite the initial ban imposed on the use of sex selection technologies in 1978, the 2001 Census indicated that the girl child was more unwanted than ever. In a bid to fix the ‘problem’ pro-life arguments began slipping into the language of advocacy , policy and activism. In the midst of all this, no thought was given to how women would negotiate agency and choice in a culture that ceaselessly tries to fix their role as producers; a culture that obsesses around the production of a male child despite its apparent hypocrisy. 'Four Women and a Room' sets out to explore some of these questions. Crew: Direction, Script and Editing: Ambarien Al Qadar Cinematography: Shakeb Ahmed, Sound : Girijashanker Vohra Producer: The Public Service Broadcasting Trust, New Delhi 2008. Thanks Ambarien Al Qadar From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Mon Sep 15 02:22:43 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 02:22:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Azadi We Need In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0809141047i55045643o14d548d6ad1d02f3@mail.gmail.com> References: <5c5369880809131043i178f0b7aida91ec46b2ee3e62@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70809140812h15537ba7oc832f9986b1fd8a4@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70809140913k3dfcd635p443b7d14d08dc421@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809141047i55045643o14d548d6ad1d02f3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0809141352h1285ca0fwd82f51671a44cc9e@mail.gmail.com> And as a corollary, India is one of the few countries in the world where laws allowing Preventive Detention enjoy constitutional validity even during peacetime. It is incredible that the state can use laws such as TADA, MISA, POTA etc against its own citizens. Nor has the indian parliament ratified the international convention against torture, of which India is a signatory. Devinder Singh, of the dreaded Special task force, is shown on television boasting about the horrific torture that a man was made to undergo and no one even asks why the courts have not taken sou moto notice of this. In a recent survey by worldpublicopion India had the dubious distinction of being one of the countries in which a majority of people (59%) supported the use of torture by state agencies to extract information. When terror is generalized through the social body as it is in India then we are pretty much on the way to a general brutalization of life. We must not and cannot allow this to happen to us. Terror in all its forms must be called that - terror. Only then can we actually develop ethical vocabularies to combat terrorism. Otherwise terrorism and state terror stand in a relationship of murky mimicry. It is timely to remember at this juncture what Micheal Taussig says about the terror unleashed by the Spanish conquistadores on the native Indians in the Putumayo during the early twentieth century. By deeming the Indians wild savages who were brutal cannibals, the Spanish unleashed a regime of terror and torture which actually only transposed the savagery of colonialism onto the bodies of Indians. The colonizers produced Indians in their own image - as savages - and so the Indian body became the cipher upon which the fantasies of violence that colonialism entailed could be enacted. The images we produce become real and haunt us. Lets please not ask that these images of violence come to pass. I do not think we can suffer the torment to watch our visages tranform into the faces of those we fear. in solidarity Aarti On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 11:17 PM, Aarti Sethi wrote: > Dear Prabhakar, > > Thank you. You are absolutely right we are all responsible for what has > happened in Delhi. Let me spell out some of the ways in which we are > responsible. > > We are responsible for the fact that there has been continous violence > against Christians in Kandhamal in Orissa for over 15 days with churches, > houses and institutions being attacked and set on fire every day and still > not one person has been arrested. Christians form 2.5 percent of the > population in Orissa and today morning carries a statement by mr Narendra > Modi saying that because conversion activity is changing the demographic > profile there is violence. Praveen Togadia has been making incendiary speech > singling institutions and persons out for attack and he's walking around. > Why is this situation being allowed to continue, how can Modi make these > statements and get away with it? How is it that while the state is quick to > ban SIMI, on the scantiest of evidence, the Bajrang Dal and the VHP are not > banned, when it has been proved that they are behind and involved in the > attacks on Christians. > > We are responsible because till now the killers of thousands of Muslims in > Gujarat are scot free, and in power. There have been convictions in only 2 > cases : Best bakery, and everyone knows what was done to Zaheera in the > course of this, and Bilqis Bano. Over 4000 people were killed. Why has > nothing been done? We should be asking this question every day. Tehelka > carried a chilling report last year where a journalist went underground and > spoke to fucntionaries in the BJP and RSS who are on tape claiming they > killed people, and has the court taken sou moto notice? NO. > > I am not justifyng terrorism. As we have seen terror does not choose its > target. In that it is chillingly and ruthlessly democratic. There are no > administrative solutions to terror. Can the state's eyes be everywhere? No. > Do we want this? No. There are only political solutions. Rather than asking > that more anti-terror legilation be enacted which only means that the state > is armed with still more weapons with which to target communities, we should > instead be asking that if the state takes seriously its commitment to wiping > out terrorism then it address seriosuly the reasons why communities and > groups feel increasingly insecure and alienated. > > There is no such thing as being "soft on terror". There is such a thing > however as being soft on the known pepretrators of crimes against humanity > such as Mr Narendra Modi. This morning, in a report in the TOI, Mr. Advani > and other luminaries claimed that not hanging Afzal Guru is yet another > instance of the reluctance to tackle terror. And what is the connection? And > what will hanging Afsal Guru achieve? Another report in the TOI claimed that > the police are especially suspicious of "neo-Dalit" converts to Islam as > they are most likely to be behind such activities. What does this even mean? > How can this sort of profiling be allowed? > > Let us not forget that one of the first instances of terrorism in this > country occured actually in Mizoram, after the failure of the government to > assuage severe famine conditions. This happend almost 50 years ago now when > the flowering of bambo lead to a deluge of rats which ate up all the food. > When the Mizoram National famine front was formed and an agitation began the > Indian airforce was called in to carpet bomb Aizwal. And for the next 20 > years there was an insurgency till the peace accord was signed in 1989. > > What happened in Delhi yesterday like what hapened 3 years ago, like what > happened in Ahemadabad, Bangalore, Jaipur and Bombay is terrible and > saddening. It makes all our lives insecure and fraught. But please please > please, let us not use this moment to ask for greater terror as a response. > Please let us not ask for Gujcoca or Pota or Poto or whatever new technique > of coersion the government might devise. It is not a solution, it will not > make anyone safer. It will only mean that more people can be shut away for > less and less for longer and longer. > > What kind of soicety do we want to live in? Tomorrow we could all have a > policeman with us at all times day and night, every street corner can have > 50 surveillance cameras, why, we can even have pre-crime like in Minority > Report - lets arrest people before the crime is even committed. We would all > be utterly safe and utterly dead as a people. > > > Yes things are in a crises, but please lets recognise what the terms of > this crises are. > > in solidarity and in sadness > > Aarti > > > > > On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 9:43 PM, inder salim wrote: > >> Thanks my dear >> Histroy is such a bitchy subject, that we end up talking only about a >> Gandhi or a Jinnah. But there are hundreds of other doors to enter. It >> is a quagumire, but at least we free ourselves from a short cut to >> history which is to see Jinnah from India and Gandhi from Paskitan. >> Both can yeild wrong results. That is why i mentioned Sheikh, who can >> be restored to a true status when we are talking about towering >> personalities of 1947. incorporating so many others like Shiekh in the >> understaing of struggle for free India and creation of India and >> Pakistan, acutually might help us to understand a Jinnah and a Nehru i >> better than what we are doing now. I agree that Jinnah could not >> visualized the demon that partition unleashed. But that is preceisely >> how, these politicians who feel so confident while negotiating the >> destiney of millions fails when thing go out of control. People are >> still suffering from that methodology.# >> >> Dastangoi was indeed the most wonderful door to understand History. >> We need more such doors >> >> love and best of wishes to Danish as well >> is >> >> On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 9:13 PM, mahmood farooqui >> wrote: >> > Thanks Inder. But my brother has lately been asking me--is it possible >> for >> > us to condone Jinnah for the demons that he could not have but known he >> was >> > unleashing when he, tacitly, conceded that a fight for Muslims could be >> > played as a fight for Islam. >> > >> > 2008/9/14 inder salim >> >> >> >> Yes, Mahmood Bhai >> >> >> >> When you mention , Jinnah, I think of Dastangoi, What a wonderful and >> >> thought provoking performance that was. I wish I had recorded that >> >> for friends in Kashmir. But there are Jinnah lovers in Kashmir, >> >> still. So physically, your performance might not be such a welcome >> >> move in Kashmir, right now at least. >> >> >> >> Sheikh Mohd Abdullah was called as Qaid-a-Sani which mean second to >> >> the first. The First was indeed Qaid-a-Azam, Jinnah himself. But, I >> >> guess Sheik was truly the first. >> >> >> >> He was truly a hero, in real sense, a towering personality, full of >> >> courage. He succeeded where Gandhi and Jinnah failed. If there was no >> >> blood on the streets in 1947, it was Kashmir. Rest of it, as we know >> >> was just a horror. >> >> >> >> Sheikh Mohd Abdullah was truly interested in a new Kashmir. He was a >> >> great friend of India. Remember, in 1947, it was quite impossible for >> >> any one to think beyond India and Pakistan. It was just about a Hindu >> >> or a Muslim. But Sheikh had a foresight. And 1971 proved that he was >> >> right. But what failed him is the coterie around him, and friends who >> >> betrayed. >> >> >> >> Sheikh Mohd Abudulah is not a respected leader in Kashmir any more, >> >> which is sad. If Nehru had the courage to declare a free Kashmir ( >> >> with or without Jammu ) and provided protection to it from Jinnah's >> >> Pakistan, history might have been different. Alas ! >> >> >> >> Love >> >> is >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 1:59 PM, mahmood farooqui >> >> wrote: >> >> > Sanjay, I share your concern about Umair's casal disengagement with >> the >> >> > oppression in kashmir and with the liberationist impulse implicit in >> the >> >> > kasmiri uprising. >> >> > >> >> > Yes, Azadi may take a form that we cannot anticipate. But as Mukul >> >> > Kesavan >> >> > pointed out to Shuddha we have to extrapolate on the outcomes from >> the >> >> > gamut >> >> > of the existing pointers. And it is the Azadi seekers who need to >> >> > deliberate >> >> > more on what they are going to do. Not just that we will do it >> better. >> >> > >> >> > We have heard his before from Jinnah--we will protect our minorities >> >> > (better). >> >> > >> >> > 2008/9/13 Sanjay Kak >> >> > >> >> >> Thanks, Jeebesh, for posting Umair Ahmed Muhajir's piece "The Azadi >> We >> >> >> Need" >> >> >> >> http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20080904&fname=umair&sid=1 >> >> >> >> >> >> The Sarai list has robustly reflected the recent revival of interest >> in >> >> >> the >> >> >> idea of Kashmir's Azadi, and I think many of us would be in synch >> with >> >> >> the >> >> >> despair reflected in Muhajir's understanding of the monstrous >> contours >> >> >> of >> >> >> the modern nation state, especially as it has unfolded in our part >> of >> >> >> the >> >> >> world–India, Pakistan, Bangladesh... >> >> >> >> >> >> What I do not share is the certainity with which he–like many >> writers >> >> >> in >> >> >> recent weeks both here and in other public forums in India–have >> >> >> visualised >> >> >> a >> >> >> possible Azad Kashmir. Perhaps because few in Kashmir have been able >> to >> >> >> spell out their vision, our assumptions have flooded in and filled >> the >> >> >> space. One of these is that Azadi necessarily means an Islamic >> Nation. >> >> >> Certainly there are pointers from some of the political leaders of >> the >> >> >> movement that this may be the idea. Syed Ali Shah Geelani has spoken >> of >> >> >> the >> >> >> centrality of Islam in his vision, and no doubt there are other >> >> >> elements in >> >> >> the Hurriyat that would concur. (Although even here it is an open >> >> >> question >> >> >> what their Islamic role model is: Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Malaysia, >> >> >> Syria, >> >> >> Qatar? Or another: Kashmir,) But surely it cannot be the case that >> what >> >> >> Geelani says, or what elements of the Hurriyat hint at can be taken >> as >> >> >> conclusive in our understanding of the aspirations for Azadi? >> >> >> (Especially >> >> >> when most people who draw these conclusions are also the first to >> >> >> question >> >> >> the representative character of Geelani or the Hurriyat!) >> >> >> >> >> >> Our discussions of where Kashmir is headed is already moving so >> giddily >> >> >> ahead of the state of play, that sometimes I get the sensation that >> >> >> these >> >> >> are not really conversations about Kashmir, and the abominable >> >> >> situation >> >> >> there, but really about our anxieties about ourselves. (Here I use >> >> >> "our" >> >> >> for >> >> >> those of whose of us who do not see ourselves as Kashmiris–so >> Indians, >> >> >> Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, whoever.) >> >> >> >> >> >> Let us for a moment ignore the hardliners in the public discourse, >> the >> >> >> G >> >> >> Parthasarathy, K Subrahmanyam, Harish Khare (and for comic relief, >> >> >> Jaitirath >> >> >> Rao) line on Kashmir. (In a nutshell: fry them). >> >> >> Let's turn to the liberal discourse, where however sophisticated the >> >> >> language, and however much sympathy for the "ordinary Kashmiri" is >> >> >> evoked, >> >> >> the main preoccupation seems to be around what a possible Azad >> >> >> Kashmir–one >> >> >> which wears it Muslim majority and its Islamic character on its >> >> >> sleeve–will >> >> >> do to the idea of Indian secularism, to Indian democracy, and to >> >> >> India's >> >> >> Muslims. In India, for example, the failure to fulfill the >> aspirations >> >> >> of a >> >> >> Secular, Socialist, Democratic Republic that We The People were >> >> >> promised, >> >> >> seem to hinge entirely on whether or not Kashmir continues to be >> part >> >> >> of >> >> >> India... How fragile is this notion of the Secular Socialist >> Democracy >> >> >> that >> >> >> it hinges entirely on a part of the map that has never >> enthusiastically >> >> >> embraced the geographical entity that bounds that ideal! >> >> >> >> >> >> So too in Muhajir's otherwise excellent discussion of the Nation >> State, >> >> >> Kashmir is only the peg upon which the larger anxiety hangs. I >> tended >> >> >> to >> >> >> read his piece as a lament about the failure of our nations to meet >> the >> >> >> aspirations of our decolonising imaginations. About what he calls >> the >> >> >> Azadi >> >> >> We Need. >> >> >> >> >> >> To say, as Muhajir does, that "the idea of an independent Kashmir >> for >> >> >> Kashmiris must be resisted precisely because, as the experience of >> the >> >> >> once-colonised has amply illustrated, nation-states are appallingly >> >> >> inhuman" >> >> >> is a suggestion of some casual brutality. And when he says that >> >> >> "nothing in >> >> >> the Kashmiri independence movement suggests that it will throw up >> >> >> anything >> >> >> different; indeed given that the movement aims at a traditional >> >> >> nation-state >> >> >> just like all the others, I submit that it cannot yield a different >> >> >> result", >> >> >> I can only wonder at his certainity of what the movement aims at. He >> is >> >> >> asking us not just to doubt, or raise a red-flag of warning, but to >> >> >> "resist" >> >> >> because he believes that an Independent Kashmir may turn into the >> >> >> monster >> >> >> with the big floppy ears and the sharp tusks? Remember the Six Blind >> >> >> Men of >> >> >> Hindustan, and the Elephant? >> >> >> >> >> >> Because in the absence of democracy, in the absence of free and >> >> >> fearless >> >> >> politics, and in the presence of a quite monstrous apparatus of >> >> >> occupation, >> >> >> none of us can as yet lay claim to saying that we know what the >> >> >> movement >> >> >> aims at. >> >> >> >> >> >> The discomfort with the Nation State is a valid one. If indeed there >> >> >> are >> >> >> those within the movement who casually think of such an entity, then >> >> >> they >> >> >> would do well to make themselves familiar with the arguments Mohajir >> >> >> assembles against it. But for the vast majority of people in the >> >> >> valley, >> >> >> the >> >> >> idea of Azadi does not as yet have such elaborate contours. It still >> >> >> means >> >> >> removing the Army, bringing back some elementary dignity into >> everyday >> >> >> life. >> >> >> We can lay the charge at the door of the Separatist leadership that >> >> >> they >> >> >> have failed to start that conversation about what Kashmir could be >> >> >> like. >> >> >> But >> >> >> before we "resist" the idea of Azadi we–and here I speak of >> >> >> Indians–must >> >> >> also take on board our complicity in a system that has not allowed >> any >> >> >> form >> >> >> of genuine democratic process to emerge in Kashmir, not just since >> 1989 >> >> >> when >> >> >> the armed conflict broke out, but for at least three decades before >> >> >> that. >> >> >> >> >> >> And what if, in the absence of another workable alternative that >> they >> >> >> can >> >> >> come up with, or indeed we can offer them, they still choose the >> >> >> tattered >> >> >> and torn robes of the Nation State? Will we say to them that their >> >> >> struggle >> >> >> is meaningless, their suffering inconsequential, the repression they >> >> >> have >> >> >> dealt with somehow appropriate? Because they don't understand the >> >> >> perils of >> >> >> the Nation State they must cease to resist? >> >> >> >> >> >> In recent weeks, one can see the furry edges of the Establishment >> >> >> fluffing >> >> >> up in defence of old atrophied positions. Forget the Intelligence >> >> >> Bureau >> >> >> plants and the Home Ministry hand-outs. Academics Sumit Ganguly and >> >> >> Kanti >> >> >> Bajpai, separately and together, placed a series of articles all >> over >> >> >> the >> >> >> national and international media that set up a sort of Qualifying >> >> >> Standard >> >> >> to Permit Secession. Minimally you are required to say Yes to the >> >> >> following: >> >> >> Genocide? Ethnic flooding? Major human rights violations? Since >> India >> >> >> has >> >> >> fallen short on all counts, they aver, with only 70,000 dead, and No >> >> >> Major >> >> >> human rights violations, the Standard is not met . Sorry then. No >> case >> >> >> for >> >> >> Azadi. >> >> >> Who set up this Gold Standard, and who calibrates it? >> >> >> >> >> >> While it is not my intention to place Muhajir's arguments on the >> same >> >> >> shelf >> >> >> as the Hawks and the Hawks-in-Dove-feathers, I bring them together >> >> >> because >> >> >> collectively they serve the same end-result: "This may not end up >> the >> >> >> way >> >> >> WE >> >> >> want it, so lets just wait and watch". >> >> >> >> >> >> That was the position that British Liberals could well have taken in >> >> >> the >> >> >> years before Independence: hand over India to the Hindu Mahasabha? >> The >> >> >> Muslim League? To Gandhi?. >> >> >> Better a part of Empire than to allow India to destroy itself under >> the >> >> >> weight of its own contradictions. >> >> >> >> >> >> That has been the position of liberal Indians for at least twenty–if >> >> >> not >> >> >> sixty–years. Frozen in a rigor mortis of wilful ignorance, political >> >> >> correctness, and theoretical purity. >> >> >> >> >> >> This may not be The Azadi They Need. >> >> >> >> >> >> Sanjay Kak >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> > _________________________________________ >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > From indersalim at gmail.com Mon Sep 15 08:47:05 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 08:47:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] in the name of Art Message-ID: <47e122a70809142017l7f17b005n49593512b7ec4780@mail.gmail.com> Dear All How mongoose are killed for fine art. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYRTuZeUgMM The news form Meerut ( 2 hour bus journey from Delhi ) that 7000 Art Brushes have been seized by police which have been made from 3500 forest Mongoose. A massacre of animals for art. I am sure there are artist who go out to paint a mongoose in the park next with a brush made from the dead mongoose hair itself. Is it art? We have Artists who draws animals on living animals. Is it Art? Black on the surface of a white horse, White on the surface of a dark green Tortoise. In the name of art by Gullimero vergas , Artist from Costa Rica, who tied a dog in the gallery space for the spectacle of his slow death. Forget animal rights violation, but is it Art? India has its own brand of Gullimero Vergas who kill a Goat for her skin to make a ' mashq' ( traditional water container) . The skin is already available in the market, if one is dying to get a piece. To exhibit the video recording of the killing of a goat as work of art is highly disturbing. I wish teachers in Art colleges , art students and those who write on art take some time to think about this disturbing aspect of our Art Practice in India. Do we need brushes which come from death to the animals ? ARTIST can make a brush from their own hair to paint whatever, or do whatever, but not at the cost of animals. Let us think of earth first and then Art. Love Inder salim -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From indersalim at gmail.com Mon Sep 15 09:15:04 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 09:15:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] my past my present, ( 1 minute video ) Message-ID: <47e122a70809142045m1a59a0fejb9f022f79285113b@mail.gmail.com> please press http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhACZfgqWQA to see my past my present, MY PAST HAS A KASHMIR IN IT, AND MY PRESENT HAS A DELHI... -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From vivek at sarai.net Mon Sep 15 10:26:35 2008 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 10:26:35 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Police Patrol Indian Dutty Riddim Message-ID: <48CDEB03.8020500@sarai.net> Ragga style by Delhi-based Delhi Sultanate and Sukhee: http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=KEdvGwRz4N4 Finally, some rap music out of India that actually has something to say! Helpfully subtitled; do watch to the end... Vivek From indersalim at gmail.com Mon Sep 15 01:07:39 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 01:07:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] in the name of Art Message-ID: <47e122a70809141237v1d86879fl29c8815cf27e1966@mail.gmail.com> Dear All How mongoose are killed for fine art. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYRTuZeUgMM The news form Meerut ( 2 hour bus journey from Delhi ) that 7000 Art Brushes have been seized by police which have been made from 3500 forest Mongoose. A massacre of animals for art. I am sure there are artist who go out to paint a mongoose in the park with a brush made from the dead mongoose hair itself. Is it art? We have Artists who draws animals on living animals. Is it Art? Black on the surface of a white living horse, White on the surface of a living dark green Tortoise. In the name of art by Gullimero vergas , Artist from Costa Rica, who tied a dog in the gallery space for the spectacle of his slow death. Forget animal rights violation, but is it Art? India has its own brand of Gullimero Vergas who kill a Goat for her skin to make a ' mashq' ( traditional water container) . The skin is already available in the market, if one is dying to get a piece. To exhibit the video recording of the killing of a goat as work of art is highly disturbing. Are we so insensitive to the other ? I wish teachers in Art colleges , art students and those who write on art take some time to think about this disturbing aspect of our Art Practice in India. Do we need brushes which come from death to the animals ? ARTIST can make a brush from their own hair to paint whatever, or do whatever, but not at the cost of animals. Let us think of earth first and then Art. Love Inder salim-- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From rashneek at gmail.com Mon Sep 15 14:35:32 2008 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 14:35:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri journalists attacked In-Reply-To: <499274.54676.qm@web30507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <13df7c120809120259t2b8c73e2qa9c2fc416d5ea239@mail.gmail.com> <499274.54676.qm@web30507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <13df7c120809150205p6fc35732j714405eee1690a92@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rahul, I would apprecaited your moral pdestal and political correctness had it been even naivete but in this case it was it wasnt so.When as a journalist you write" Kashmiris will be further alienated" ,I would like to know which Kashmiris because there are many who havent been or wouldnt be.By Pandits and Muslims I meant more as ethnicities rather than their religious connotations.That notwithstanding do you disagree that the insurgency in Kashmir isnt religious in nature. I agree it is ordinary people who have died but do remember when any group as Kashmiri Muslims or Gujarati Hindus(not all but a sizeable portion) have overtly or covertly supported violence against their minority counterparts either by giving rousing welcome to the killers of minorities or choosing (or even electing) them as their leaders then destiny leads us to a time when more innocents from the majority community will also face the wrath of some other Modi or Malik.Although two wrongs dont make a right but unfortunately vsupporting violence in the first place will suck one into into it somehow or another ,whether you are innocent or not,whether ordinary or not. Regards We can agree to disgaree, Rashneek On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 4:11 PM, Rahul Pandita wrote: > Dear Rashneek > > Many thanks for your response. As for your request of choice of words, I > think I would personally stick to ordinary Kashmiris instead of categorising > them into Hindus and Muslims. As a journalist, I believe ordinariness is a > category in itself which does not take religion into account. It were > ordinary Kashmiris who fell victims to Bitta Karate's bullets. And if you > follow the events of the past two months, it's only ordinary people who have > died - of self immolation, poisoning, terrorist attack or SHO Nawhatta's > bullet. > > A handshake in thoughts > r > > Rahul Pandita www.sanitysucks.blogspot.com Mobile: 9818088664 > > > --- On Fri, 12/9/08, rashneek kher wrote: > > > From: rashneek kher > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Kashmiri journalists attacked > > To: rahulpandita at yahoo.com > > Cc: "SARAI" , khurramparvez at yahoo.com > > Date: Friday, 12 September, 2008, 3:29 PM > > Dear Rahul, > > > > you are right.the situation in kashmir is really bad.The > > national media does > > not report what is happening there.It never did and when it > > did it either > > underplayed facts or made stereotypes stronger.It was the > > media that made us > > believe that things are OK in the valley,some 4 months > > back.They went gaga > > over Santosh Trophy ,Shame Gurukul and Golf > > tournaments..They misread calm > > for peace.You are yourself a journalist and therefore would > > acknowledge how > > little do most of the journalists covering Kashmir know or > > understand about > > it.Anyone who spends a week in A shikara comes back as a > > Kashmir Expert.To > > expect good reportage from them is asking for the sunshine > > in Siberia.I have > > personally met a lot of journalists,who write on Kashmir, > > without even > > having a basic understanding of Kashmir.It is them who > > never report the > > truth and beat drums of non existenet or hyped Kashmiriyat > > when none > > exists.Some of them sit in the most influential positions > > in media houses.So > > Media has always played a rather dubious role in reporting > > from or about > > Kashmir or Kashmiiris.It is media that did not make any > > noise when Bitta > > Karate was released.So they are and have been as much a > > culprit as the > > government or separtists have been in this mess. > > On the present crisis-Who can disagree that government has > > mishandled the > > situation first by giving too much of rope and now putting > > too many > > curbs.Curfew should have been imposed on day one when > > people came out > > against the land trasfer order.We would have saved many > > innocent lives. > > Well I also request you to be more careful in your choice > > of words...an > > ordinary Kashmiri should read ordinary Kashmiri Muslims.As > > far as I know > > most Pandits sans people like me are still Indians.We also > > need to go back > > to the days and places where you and me lived without a > > policeman in even 10 > > kms radius.Violence begets violence.I am not condoning what > > you claim > > that the police is doing but genesis of the problem lies in > > the armed > > insurgency which brought all this upon us the Kashmiris(not > > Kashmiri Muslims > > Alone). > > If MK Narayaan thinks what he is thinking now, he is > > actually aping people > > like Salaudhin,Yasin Malik and others who though they would > > beat India with > > guns.Brutal force is no answer.It has taken separtists 18 > > years to > > understand that maybe Govt will also understand in > > sometime. > > > > Regards > > > > Rashneek Kher > > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 1:11 PM, Rahul Pandita > > wrote: > > > > > The situation is really bad in Kashmir. And not even a > > fraction of what is > > > happening there gets reported by the national media. I > > was there on > > > September 6, in downtown Nawhatta, when a young taxi > > driver, Javed Iqbal > > > Bhat, was shot at by the police. He died on the spot. > > Javed had not even > > > been a part of the protestors. He had just stepped out > > to buy toffees for > > > his two-year-old nephew. The police falsely claimed > > that the protestors had > > > been using petrol bombs. I was there: nothing beyond > > stones was used. > > > > > > Both TOI and HT reported the next day that "a > > protestor was killed in > > > clashes." This is absurd. If MK Narayanan thinks > > that he can bring down > > > protests by the use of brutal force, he is mistaken. > > Making an executive > > > engineer frog jump (in Jawahar Nagar) in front of his > > two sons is not > > > helping India. It will further alienate the ordinary > > Kashmiri. > > > > > > Rahul Pandita www.sanitysucks.blogspot.com Mobile: > > 9818088664 > > > > > > > > > --- On Wed, 10/9/08, Khurram Parvez > > wrote: > > > > > > > From: Khurram Parvez > > > > > > Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiri journalists > > attacked > > > > To: "SARAI" > > > > > > Date: Wednesday, 10 September, 2008, 7:05 PM > > > > Press Release > > > > > > > > In the aftermath of the Amarnath land > > controversy, members > > > > of press in Kashmir have been coming under > > serious attack by > > > > the personnel of CRPF and in some measure by the > > crowds. We > > > > have reasons to believe that the attacks happen > > by > > > > deliberate design of the State agencies. When the > > governor N > > > > N Vohra was informed about these attacks, he > > pleaded > > > > ignorance and, in presence of some members of > > press and the > > > > secretary information, instructed the Director > > General of > > > > Police not to let such attacks to continue. > > > > > > > > However, to present just one instance, the > > attacks > > > > continued the next day, confirming our suspicion > > that the > > > > attacks are carried out by design. Journalists > > have faced > > > > irrational demands from CRPF personnel manning > > the streets > > > > like "you are not carrying a curfew pass for > > your > > > > camera." Such instances could tell volumes. > > > > > > > > For reference, a list of journalists attacked by > > security > > > > forces personnel is attached. It is demanded that > > the > > > > process of intimidation of journalists is stopped > > to enable > > > > press to carry out its professional duties. > > > > > > > > Annexure > > > > > > > > July 05 - Raashid Wani of Sahara Samay was > > severely beaten > > > > by CRPF at near Jinab Sahib Shrine in Soura. The > > cameraman > > > > spent three days in the hospital. > > > > > > > > August, 12 - Bashir Ahmad lone -CNN-IBN > > cameraman's car > > > > was fired at near Lasjan. Raashid Wani was also > > beaten up in > > > > the incident. PRO CRPF later exclaimed that he > > wonders why > > > > the guy is beaten up every time. > > > > > > > > August, 13 - Javaid Ahmad Mir- Killed by a bullet > > from > > > > security forces near Bagh-e-Mehtab. He worked as > > a cameraman > > > > with a local cable TV channel. > > > > > > > > August 19 - Photojournalist, Amman Farooq, of > > Greater > > > > Kashmir was beaten up and his arm broken by CRPF > > at Bypass > > > > near Qamarwari. His arm was broken. > > > > > > > > August, 22 - Muzamil Rashid of IBN 7 was shooting > > at Habba > > > > Kadal when CRPF opened fire on protestors and > > then tried to > > > > snatch his camera. He ran away but was severely > > thrashed. > > > > Sheikh Umar of News 24 was also injured in the > > same > > > > incident. > > > > > > > > August 24 - Bilal Bhat, Sahara Samay > > correspondent along > > > > with his team members stopped by CRPF at Rambagh. > > Even > > > > though he had a curfew pass, he was thrashed. > > Sustained a > > > > fracture in his rib. Team members- Jan Mohammad, > > Rashid Mir, > > > > Muzzaffar. > > > > > > > > August, 24 - S. Fayaz of UNI was stopped near > > SMHS > > > > hospital. ``When I showed my curfew pass, the > > CRPF men said > > > > it is not valid anymore,'' he said. ``I > > turned my > > > > bike to go back but they started hitting > > him''. > > > > > > > > August 24 - AFP photographer Touseef Mustafa was > > sent back > > > > from Lal Chowk even though he had a curfew pass. > > The CRPF > > > > asked him for Curfew pass of his camera and lens. > > > > > > > > August, 24 - Jehangir Aziz of ETV and Khalid > > Hussain of > > > > IBN7 were beaten by CRPF near Rambagh. > > > > > > > > August, 24 - Manoj Koul of ETV was also thrashed > > near Zero > > > > Bridge. He had called DIG operations, CRPF M P > > Nathanael, > > > > who told him that the previous curfew passes > > would be valid. > > > > But as he reached near old zero bridge, CRPF men > > thrashed > > > > him. > > > > > > > > August 24 - Amin War of Tribune, Firdous Ahmad of > > News-X > > > > and Amin Bhat of NDTV were stopped near Bakshi > > stadium by > > > > the CRPF. The CRPF asked them to stuff their > > curfew passes > > > > back in their pockets and beat them up. ``The > > CRPF men told > > > > us that today, we will do whatever we want. No > > one can stop > > > > us,'' Amin War told The Indian Express. > > > > > > > > August 25 - CRPF men patrolling the Tehsil Road > > in > > > > Baramulla smashed the front and back lights of > > the car of > > > > Mir Ehsan, correspondent Indian Express. > > "They had > > > > already smashed my car when they asked for the > > curfew pass. > > > > I had to run away to save myself." > > > > > > > > August 24 – Umar Ganaie, a photojournalist of > > daily > > > > Kashmir Monitor, was thrashed by a Superintendent > > of Kashmir > > > > Police in SMHS hospital. The photojournalist > > tried to show > > > > his curfew pass but the SP tore it apart. He was > > also beaten > > > > up by CRPF outside when a police officer asked > > them to beat > > > > him. > > > > > > > > August, 24 - The local news papers were not > > allowed to > > > > distribute their copies. Greater Kashmir staff > > came under > > > > assault when Zahoor Ahmad, Mohd. Iqbal, Ghulam > > Mohammad were > > > > stopped early morning at Rambagh and beaten up by > > CRPF men > > > > while they were carrying copies for distribution. > > > > Later in the afternoon, CRPF men thrashed three > > other > > > > employees of Greater Kashmir, Bashir Ahmad Dar, > > Mohammad > > > > Rafiq Margay and Farooq Ahmad Mir were going to > > their > > > > editor's place with curfew passes. > > > > In the evening, Majid Hyderi of Greater Kashmir > > was > > > > intimidated at Hyderpora after CRPF men checked > > his I-Card > > > > and curfew pass. "They abused me and did not > > allow me > > > > go to office," Majid said. > > > > > > > > Rising Kashmir staff also came under assault at > > several > > > > places on the same day. Farooq Ahmad of > > distribution section > > > > of Rising Kashmir and the newspaper's system > > > > administrator, Rahil, were beaten at Batamaloo > > while the two > > > > were carrying newspapers for distribution. > > > > > > > > August 25 - Asif Qureshi of Star News was stopped > > at > > > > Hyderpora by CRPF and beaten up. His car was also > > smashed > > > > while he was coming back from Airport. > > > > > > > > August 28 - The Correspondent of Hindu in > > Kashmir, Shujaat > > > > Bukhari's home at Rawalpora, Srinagar was > > raided by > > > > security forces as they were looking for > > separatist leaders. > > > > > > > > > > > > August 29 - Hakeem Irfan, Rising Kashmir > > correspondent, was > > > > beaten at Rainawari. "Press wale ho, isi > > liye maar padi > > > > (You were beaten only because you are a > > journalist," > > > > Irfan was told. > > > > > > > > August 29 - The news editor of Daily Etalaat, > > Ishfaq > > > > Tantray was stopped near Radio Kashmir in > > Srinagar and > > > > beaten up. He was beaten up. "aap log > > hungama karte ho > > > > (you people are responsible for the > > problems)". > > > > > > > > September 8: Police cops confiscated all the > > newspaper > > > > supply - Greater Khasmir, Etalaat, Raising > > Kahsmir, Kashmir > > > > Uzam etc - meant for north Kashmir at Narbal, > > some > > > > 15-kilometers from Srinagar. The cops also > > destroyed thje > > > > camera of Etalaat's photographer Sajad Raja > > and also > > > > threatened him. On the same day, around eight > > > > photojournalists were thrashed by J-K police and > > Central > > > > Reserve Police Force (CRPF) in downtown city > > while covering > > > > a protest against the killing of a youth. > > > > > > > > Others thrashed by CRPF > > > > > > > > Syed Muzzaffar - Srinagar Times. > > > > > > > > Mukhtar Ahmad - Srinagar Mail. > > > > > > > > The mob attacks: > > > > > > > > On August 13, the Srinagar Bureau Chief of Aaj > > Tak, Ashraf > > > > Wani was injured and his camera broken this > > morning when > > > > angry crowd attacked him inside the SMHS > > hospital, Srinagar. > > > > > > > > > > > > An NDTV cameraman, Amir Bhat was also injured > > when people > > > > attacked his vehicle at SKIMS on August 13. > > > > > > > > The correspondent of Daily News Analysis (DNA) > > > > Ishfaq-ul-Hassan was thrashed by people near > > Karan Nagar. He > > > > had earlier been stopped by police and was asked > > to give > > > > lift to one of their men. When people saw him > > carrying a > > > > policeman with him, they stopped him and started > > beating > > > > him. > > > > > > > > Issued jointly by Srinagar based journalists > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > > the subject > > > > header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Rashneek Kher > > Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten Human Tragedy > > http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com > > http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com > > > > -- Rashneek Kher Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten Human Tragedy http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From iram at sarai.net Mon Sep 15 14:06:10 2008 From: iram at sarai.net (Iram Ghufran) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 14:06:10 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Fwd: A new journal: Art&Research Message-ID: <48CE1E7A.9040101@sarai.net> Subject: [Announcements] A New Journal: From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 12:15:46 +0530 To: announcements at sarai.net Dear All, I am forwarding below an announcement for a new journal 'ART & RESEARCH' that was posted recently by Geert Lovink on the Spectre Mailing List, in the belief that it may be of interest to many people on this list. The contents of the journal are freely accessible and downloadable as pdf files.This volume focuses on Ranciere's work on Aesthetics. regards Shuddha ------------------------------------------- ART&RESEARCH A Journal of Ideas, Contexts and Methods Volume 2. No. 1. Summer 2008 (ISSN 1752 6388) http://www.artandresearch.org.uk Art and Research is an artist-led, internationally peer-assessed e-journal of Research in Fine Art Practice, focused upon questions, contexts and methodologies of artistic research and practice. Art & Research aims to serve professional artists and academics, curators and critics, artistic researchers, postgraduate and doctoral research students and undergraduates, and to inform current pedagogical thought in a global context. This issue is focused on the work of French philosopher Jacques Rancière and includes papers from the two-day conference Aesthetics and Politics: With and Around Jacques Rancière co-organized by Sophie Berrebi and Marie-Aude Baronian at the University of Amsterdam on 20 and 21 June 2006. It includes the previously unpublished text of Rancière_s plenary lecture delivered at the conference and a new interview with the philosopher; it also includes a transcript of an exchange with Rancière which followed the papers presented by Stephen Wright and Jonathan Lahey Dronsfield which also appear here. Contents Editorial: Jacques Rancière and The (Re)Distribution of the Sensible:( Five Lessons in Artistic Research With and Around Jacques Rancière Sophie Berrebi: Everything you wanted to know about Jacques Rancière but were afraid to ask&.. Jacques Rancière: Aesthetic Separation, Aesthetic Community: Scenes from the Aesthetic Regime of Art Stephen Wright: Behind Police Lines: Art Visible and Invisible Jonathan Lahey Dronsfield: Nowhere is aesthetics contra ethics: (Rancière the other side of Lyotard An Exchange with Jacques Rancière Jacques Rancière and Indisciplinarity, translated by Gregory Elliott Sophie Berrebi: Jacques Rancière: Aesthetics is Politics Audron_ Žukauskait_: Imaginary Identities In Contemporary Lithuanian Art Sean Snyder: Optics. Compression. Propaganda. Michael Rakowitz: The invisible enemy should not exist All of a Sudden: Things that Matter in Contemporary Art: An Interview with Jörg Heiser Dan Kidner: Chris Evans: Socially Awkward Chris Evans: The Freedom of Negative Expression The Phenomenology of Olfactory Perception:( An interview with Clara Ursitti Clara Ursitti: Oxford/Rome Micro Gestures For a New Co-Efficiency in Art: An interview with Andrew Sunley Smith Andrew Sunley Smith: Micro Gestures Brian O'Connell: Ghostly Media: What Would an Invoking Medium Look Like? Sarah-Neel Smith: Nightcomers at the 2007 Istanbul Biennial:( revolution or counter-revolution? Art and Research is published by: Studio 55: Centre for Research in Fine Art Practice Glasgow School of Art 167 Renfrew Street Glasgow, G3 6RQ http://www.studio55.org.uk _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From jeebesh at sarai.net Mon Sep 15 15:40:25 2008 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 15:40:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Lehman Brothers Announces It Will File Chapter 11 Bankruptcy Message-ID: <7E51547D-CF09-446D-8B81-37D2AC8CB831@sarai.net> If Lehman Brothers are bankrupt, then the world is definitely in for some really hard shocks. Euphoria now may get gently replaced by various versions of catastrophe:) best jeebesh Lehman Brothers Announces It Will File Chapter 11 Bankruptcy Lehman Brothers, the storied Wall Street securities firm, announced on its Web site early Monday that it will file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection. Read More: http://www.nytimes.com/?emc=na From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 15 17:04:35 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 04:34:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The Azadi We Need In-Reply-To: <47e122a70809140900u730dc808j5508e98f48fdc607@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <137654.60176.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Inder Salim   Sanjay Kak's (SK's) comment that you have quoted is a ridiculous one coming as it does from someone who through various forms of expression has "identified" himself closely with the Kashmir "Azadi".   If the likes of SK, who are ever so ready to speak for and on behalf of the Kashmir "Azadi" have no idea "what the movement aims at" then the least that they are guilty of is intellectual dishonesty. In fact they bear moral, ethical and criminal responsibilty for furthering the circles of violence that engulf and permeate through Kashmir and ever so often spiral out with tragic consequences.   That holds true for you too Inder Salim since you parrot SK's comment.    In "The Azadi We Need", Umair Muhajir addresses precisely this kind of glibness while chiding Arundhati Roy for the pretense that could be used an an excuse for ignorance about such matters. The excuse being that it was "merely a question of the Kashmiri separatists not having spelled out their agenda in greater detail as yet."   There are some questions I have asked in my post. Answer those questions Inder Salim. I will not every single time indulge your arrogance in asking questions when you are not bothered to answer those asked. If you do not have the answers to the questions, then seek their answers.   Your confused comments (or slick attempts at trying to confuse) do not interest me. For your benefit I am reproducing the questions. The answers to them will also serve well to bring some clarity to your confusions:   1. When “Azadi” is spoken about in connection with Kashmir, what is the geography of that “Kashmir”?   2. The ‘contours of the movement’ and ‘elements of Azadi‘  in Indian Controlled Kashmir are fairly well know even if not well understood. If the “geography” of the Kashmir “Azadi” covers the ‘erstwhile Princely State of Jammu and Kashmir as it stood Pre-1947-Partition’ then what are the ‘contours of the movement’ and the ‘elements of Azadi’ in Pakistan Controlled Kashmir? What are the synergies between the two? When and How will the two merge?   3. If the Kashmir “Azadi” does not cover Pakistan Controlled Kashmir, Why not?   4. Will the Kashmir “Azadi” lead to a “New Country”?   5. How will this New Nation State be better than the Indian Nation State as far as Indian Controlled Kashmir is concerned? What will make it better?   6. What will the Constitution (briefly) of this New Country be?   7. On what specific points will the Constitution of this New Country be different from the Constitution of India? In what specific aspects will the Constitution of this New Country be better than the Constitution of India?     Kshmendra   --- On Sun, 9/14/08, inder salim wrote: From: inder salim Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Azadi We Need To: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Sunday, September 14, 2008, 9:30 PM dear kshmendra your you are likely to get a long passionate reflection on your passionalte reflection on UAM's article which has already been passionnately reflected by Sanjay Kak, Vivek... I quote Sanjay, Because in the absence of democracy, in the absence of free and fearless politics, and in the presence of a quite monstrous apparatus of occupation, none of us can as yet lay claim to saying that we know what the movement aims at. Now if you see hypocrrisy in what is being talked about on kashmir, then you suggest, what are alternative ways of talking kashmir. One is to maintain Status Quo, the other the questioning. And we are all passionately questioning, and of course we all are outsiders to Kashmir conflict. We all are living in India and that is normal. But that does not mean we should not question. To be secptic is not such a bad idea after all. Jean paul Sartre questioned the occupation of Algeria by France, and lot of other Nationalists intyellcetuals criticized him for taking a stand against the country of which he was proud citizen, But history proved him right. The Nation State has failed on many accounts. So why no question that even. Why not to provide more and more autonomy to all the States in Indian union. 10 Janpath is not where God need to be. about question of a free Kashmir and the need to know its would be Geography is a valid one. But we dont know, no one has an answer, but absence of an answer does not mean that there is no question. regards and love is On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 8:46 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > I look forward to reflections that will be posted about "The Azadi We Need" by Umair Ahmed Muhajir (UAM). Thank you Jeebesh for posting the article. > > On this List there are many people in whom one can see a confluence of what are two basically contradictory positions. They are dismissive of the "Nation State" and "Nationalism" and at the same time are supportive of the Kashmir "Azadi". There is an inherent hypocrisy in this because all that they are doing is seeking to reject Indian Nationalism and favouring Kashmir Nationalism even as they elsewhere constantly proclaim that they are 'against' Nationalism and 'against' the concept of Nation States. > > In his very competently written piece, UAM dismisses the "Azadi" call in Kashmir since he sees it as an attempt to carve out another "Nation State" out of the existing Indian "Nation State". > > UAM's repugnance is for a Nation State of any hue. His dismissal of Kashmir "Azadi" (and of Arundhati Roy's "rallying cry" in its support) is based on questioning what, in the the name of "Azadi," is being sought to be "let loose on the world" and questioning "the logic that they and would-be nationalists of all stripes have attempted to replicate for decades". > > In UAM's view, all of this Kashmir "Azadi" movement(s), if successful, would only lead to yet another "Nation State" and so he finds no merit in it. The "Azadi" that UAM is looking for is described by him as "the freedom we need is azadi from the mindset that thinks of peoples and communities only in terms of nation-states". > > On a personal note - in UAM's favoured recognition of "Azadi" I too subscribe to the expansiveness of attitude that one should not think of "peoples and communities" ONLY in terms of Nation States. I say that to and for myself, as one who subscribes to and fervently argues in support of Nation States since I see them as (currently at least) the only credible practically functional system for organized societies. Without any qualification, I completely share UAM's desire for "an azadi that demands that the Indian state honour its promise, to itself and to us." > > UAM does not contest Arundhati Roy's "critique -- of the Indian state's indifference, its callousness, its inhumanity, its cruelty" since UAM recognizes that India as a Nation State "does what nation-states do: in the final analysis, sacrifice humanity in the service of a larger political project." > > At the same time UAM says with confidence that "nothing in the Kashmiri independence movement suggests that it will throw up anything different; indeed given that the movement aims at a traditional nation-state just like all the others, I submit that it cannot yield a different result." > > Giving examples of "Minority rights? Justice for different communities, and between genders?" UAM does not see any difference in the aims of the (Azadi) 'movement' and those of the "existing Indian state". > > UAM rather sarcastically tells Arundhati Roy that she did "well not to linger" over her "thought experiment" where she wondered "what the independence demanded by the state's Muslim majority might mean for the state's religious or other minorities". UAM suggests that """"identities of those disadvantaged will shift, as new disfavoured minorities, new "outsiders", new "insiders", and new identity policemen"""""" > > UAM finds disingenuous any sidelining of such concerns with any excuse that it was "merely a question of the Kashmiri separatists not having spelled out their agenda in greater detail as yet". UAM asks "Why would one ever hope for anything different from a nation-state for Kashmiris, as far as those who don't fit the bill are concerned?" > > Even as UAM sees little hope for Kashmir "Azadi" not resulting in "refugees" and "victims", he argues against the Kashmir "Azadi" by saying "people -- should have learned long ago that partitions are not the solution to people's inability to live together; rather, the mindset that vests its faith in drawing easily-policed borders is a mindset that demands enemies. ……..A nation-state for Muslims thus becomes a state virtually free of non-Muslims; a sub-national state where Hindu pride is honoured above all else becomes a state where non-Hindus must know their place." > > UAM does not place any trust in the "outcomes" from the Kashmir "Azadi" being any better than the situations in the "existing Indian state" just on the the basis of "being told by the movement" that the "movement will simply do a better job." Sounding skeptical about the "secular" drumbeats of the "likes of Yasin Malik" he sees them, even if accepted, as being no different from the "Nehruvian show on a smaller stage" and sees no reason for believing that they would "yield a better result" > > UAM reckons that a "Kashmir for Kashmiris" is in fact further away from Nehru's India and more like the idea of Pakistan and Bangladesh. He fears that "The promise of the Kashmiri movement combines both of these nightmares." (The killings, displacements and creation of disadvantaged groups). > > I just could not put my finger on it. UAM makes an intriguing statement that both the Kashmir and Pakistan movements are "explicitly predicated on a favoured community that is less than everyone who lives within the state's borders." This has many possible interpretations but UAM makes it clear that "Muslim majority" is not what he is talking about. > > UAM sees "second class citizenship" implicit in the Kashmir "Azadi" and sees that as hypocritical when compared to (taken from his Blog and is not included in the Outlook article) "nation-states where "second-class" citizenship is explicit, where it is part of the very logic of the state." > > UAM brings about a fascinating distinction between Nation States where some are better than the others although he considers them all accountable in the "moral responsibility for the horrors it perpetrates" and "all of them problematic, all of them complicit in cruelty" > > UAM finds more complicit and more problematic the group of Nation States like "Germany, Switzerland, Italy, Pakistan, and, based on the logic of the movements, the would-be nation-states of Kashmir or Khalistan" since they are "premised on explicit notions of religion, language, ethnicity" > > Against them he finds better the group of Nation States like "the contemporary United States, Brazil, South Africa, and, yes, India". As UAM puts it "Theoretically, one does not need to be other than "wholly Bengali", "wholly Tamil", or "wholly Muslim" in order to be utterly Indian; one cannot say the same of Pakistan and its Hindus citizens, and the religious colour of the Kashmiri movement means it is almost inconceivable that this won't be true of an independent Kashmir as well (even leaving aside the obvious ethnic dimension)." > > I have reproduced much of what was written by UAM. My purpose was to lay down a structure (hopefully without misrepresenting what UAM said/meant) that would lead to the asking of some questions which I think are important in connection with the "Kashmir Azadi" and for which I invite serious and sober comments/answers: > > 1. When "Azadi" is spoken about in connection with Kashmir, what is the geography of that "Kashmir"? > > 2. The 'contours of the movement' and 'elements of Azadi' in Indian Controlled Kashmir are fairly well know even if not well understood. If the "geography" of the Kashmir "Azadi" covers the 'erstwhile Princely State of Jammu and Kashmir as it stood Pre-1947-Partition' then what are the 'contours of the movement' and the 'elements of Azadi' in Pakistan Controlled Kashmir? What are the synergies between the two? When and How will the two merge? > > 3. If the Kashmir "Azadi" does not cover Pakistan Controlled Kashmir, Why not? > > 4. Will the Kashmir "Azadi" lead to a "New Country"? > > 5. How will this New Nation State be better than the Indian Nation State as far as Indian Controlled Kashmir is concerned? What will make it better? > > 6. What will the Constitution (briefly) of this New Country be? > > 7. On what specific points will the Constitution of this New Country be different from the Constitution of India? In what specific aspects will the Constitution of this New Country be better than the Constitution of India? > > > Kshmendra Kaul > > > --- On Thu, 9/11/08, Jeebesh wrote: > > From: Jeebesh > Subject: [Reader-list] The Full text... > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > Date: Thursday, September 11, 2008, 7:50 PM > > http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20080904&fname=umair&sid=1 > > > The Azadi We Need > > The azadi demanded by the Kashmiri movement, and used by Roy as a > rallying cry, is not the answer. The freedom we need is azadi from the > mindset that thinks of peoples and communities only in terms of nation- > states; and equally, an azadi that demands that the Indian state > honour its promise, to itself and to us. > > Umair Ahmed Muhajir > > Towards the end of her impassioned piece calling for azadi for > Kashmir, Arundhati Roy pauses to reflect on what might follow azadi in > Kashmir, wondering what an independent Kashmir might mean, including > what the independence demanded by the state's Muslim majority might > mean for the state's religious or other minorities. She does well not > to linger, because the thought experiment illustrates precisely what > is most problematic about "national movements", namely that they are > > unable to think the political except through the prism of nation-states. > National movements, that is to say, see themselves as nation-states-in- > waiting, and do not see any political horizon beyond that of the > nation-state. So was it with the Indian national movement, and its > inability to think the difference that might have been capacious > enough to house the country's Muslim-majority regions; so it > definitely was with the Muslim League and its two-nation theory, even > more wedded to the siren song of European-style nationalism > transplanted to a colonial setting; and so it is with the "copycat" > nationalisms that have followed, be it Kashmir, or Punjab, or > Nagaland. The failure to imagine a nation-state different from the > traditional European model, the shoe-horning of Indian communitarian > identities, into models conceived with the likes of Germany and > England in mind, paved the way for the catastrophes of partition. The > "belated" nationalisms of the post-partition sub-continent > demonstrate > the truth of Marx's depressing observation, namely that we learn from > history that we do not learn from history. > The point is worth making given Roy's trenchant critiques of the > Indian state (in the context of Kashmir, but not only of Kashmir; her > essay on the Indian state and dams, The Greater Common Good, is > astonishingly powerful). That is, much of Roy's critique -- of the > Indian state's indifference, its callousness, its inhumanity, its > cruelty -- is (or certainly ought to be) animated not by her target's > Indianness, but by the fact that it is a nation-state, and as such, > does what nation-states do: in the final analysis, sacrifice humanity > in the service of a larger political project. The distinction is an > important one, because nothing in the Kashmiri independence movement > suggests that it will throw up anything different; indeed given that > the movement aims at a traditional nation-state just like all the > others, I submit that it cannot yield a different result. Minority > rights? Justice for different communities, and between genders? The > outcomes will be better than they are now, we are told by the > movement, not because the aims are different from those of the > existing Indian state, but because the movement will simply do a > better job. > > I am skeptical, and not because of the identity (religious or > otherwise) of those who comprise the Kashmiri independence movement; I > am skeptical because the aim of that movement is congenitally > incapable of producing a result that is "better" in some cosmic sense > > -- at most the identities of those disadvantaged will shift, as new > disfavoured minorities, new "outsiders", new "insiders", > and new > identity policemen are created. Roy is too sophisticated not to see > this, butdoesn't bother to delve into it, pretending that this is > merely a question of the Kashmiri separatists not having spelled out > their agenda in greater detail as yet. > > > It is not: over half a century ago, Hannah Arendt wrote (in The > Origins of Totalitarianism) of the masses of refugees and victims that > seemed to accompany the birth of every new nation-state, and nothing > has changed, not in the age of South Ossetia, Kosovo, Rwanda, ad > nauseum. > > > Certainly, those of us from the sub-continent should be especially > wary of political projects that promise us clean solutions to > intractable political problems: we live with the legacies of the > bloodbaths of the 1940s, not to mention innumerable later, "lesser" > massacres. By all accounts, the leaders of the new nation-states of > India and Pakistan were caught by surprise by the scale of the > violence in 1947; they had evidently internalized the logic of > colonialism, pursuant to which communitarian difference presents a > political "problem" that may be solved by means of creative > cartography and judicious population transfers. Conceptual neatness is > one of the hallmarks of the colonial mindset (thinking of Cyril > Radcliffe, who could doubt it?). > Unfortunately, reality is anything but, and the sub-continent's > leaders -- and, even more importantly, its people -- should have > learned long ago that partitions are not the solution to people's > inability to live together; rather, the mindset that vests its faith > in drawing easily-policed borders is a mindset that demands enemies. > It is a mindset that, in the final analysis, demands that facts on the > ground correspond to the political project of the nation-state (and > not the other way around). A nation-state for Muslims thus becomes a > state virtually free of non-Muslims; a sub-national state where Hindu > pride is honoured above all else becomes a state where non-Hindus must > know their place. > > Why would one ever hope for anything different from a nation-state for > Kashmiris, as far as those who don't fit the bill are concerned? > Certainly the region is not short of candidates for stigmatisation > (some of this is because India is fantastically diverse; some of it is > because nation-states are rather gifted at manufacturing > "problematic" > identities): Buddhists; Shiites; Gujjars; perhaps even Sunni Muslims > who will be deemed insufficiently supportive of the independence > movement (the last is hardly far-fetched, as even a casual glance at > the history of Algeria or the Khalistan movement, or Kashmir itself > during the 1990s, makes clear). Indeed, several hundred thousand > Kashmiri Pandits have already been driven off, and it is hard not to > see in them a harbinger of more to come. > > The above might seem like an odd place from which to maintain a > defense of India vis-à-vis Kashmir. It is, on the contrary, a natural > vantage point: the idea of an independent Kashmir for Kashmiris must > be resisted precisely because, as the experience of the once-colonised > has amply illustrated, nation-states are appallingly inhuman. Equally, > however, they are not all inhuman in precisely the same way; nor are > they all equally inhuman, by which I simply mean that they are not all > equally incapable of accommodating human difference, whether > communitarian or otherwise. The Germany of 2008 is manifestly not the > Germany of 1938; but nor does the Germany of 2008 accommodate ethnic > minorities as comfortably as the United States does. > None of this relieves any state of moral responsibility for the > horrors it perpetrates; but in order to agitate against horrors, one > must first understand what they are. > > > > > And within the range of nation-states on offer -- all of them > problematic, all of them complicit in cruelty -- it is apparent to me > that those premised on explicit notions of religion, language, > ethnicity, blood in some sense, are more problematic, more complicit, > than those with far more modest litmus tests. The contemporary United > States, Brazil, South Africa, and, yes, India, are among the latter > group of nation-states; Germany, Switzerland, Italy, Pakistan, and, > based on the logic of the movements, the would-be nation-states of > Kashmir or Khalistan, are not. Theoretically, one does not need to be > other than "wholly Bengali", "wholly Tamil", or > "wholly Muslim" in > order to be utterly Indian; one cannot say the same of Pakistan and > its Hindus citizens, and the religious colour of the Kashmiri movement > means it is almost inconceivable that this won't be true of an > independent Kashmir as well (even leaving aside the obvious ethnic > dimension). > > > Indeed, even if one were to take the likes of Yasin Malik at their > word, they promise no more than Jawaharlal Nehru did, that is to say a > secular state where all who live in Kashmir, of whatever ethnicity or > religious persuasion, will be equal in the eyes of the state; why and > how could such a project -- essentially the same Nehruvian show on a > smaller stage -- yield a better result? On the contrary, all the signs > are that an independent Kashmir would be more like Pakistan than > India: not because both are Muslim majority (that is irrelevant to the > point I am making), but because both movements are explicitly > predicated on a favoured community that is less than everyone who > lives within the state's borders. > > Why does any of this matter? Because nation-states where "second- > class" citizenship is implicit -- think the United States prior to de- > segregation; I assume Roy would include India; but really one could > argue some are always more equal than others in all nation-states -- > can be called out on their failures. Such nation-states are guilty of > hypocrisy, but hypocrisy is not the worst sin; indeed hypocrisy, by > opening up a gap between theory and practice, between promise and > reality, makes it possible to hold a mirror up to the state, to try > and compel it to honour its own promise to itself; and enables us to > argue that the nation-state is only imperfectly itself until it takes > a good long look in that mirror. > In short, the point is that while the Jim Crow South is unforgiveable, > the civil rights movement and Martin Luther King's "I Have a > Dream" > moment are possible in a USA where actual practice made a mockery of > the nation-state's constitutional guarantees of equal protection under > the laws; they would not be possible in the face of apartheid South > Africa, which could not be reformed, simply destroyed. It is far more > difficult, perhaps insurmountably so, to call the nation-state to task > where it has promised and can promise nothing different than what it > offers (one can rebel and try and dismantle the state, but one can't > make it see the problem): beyond a point, a "Pakistan for > Pakistanis", > that is to say for Pakistanis of all religious persuasions, would make > no sense, and would undermine the national idea (substitute > "ethnicities" for "religious communities" and the idea of > Pakistan > becomes more flexible; it should come as no surprise that the movement > for ethnic justice, greater federalism, and rights for smaller > provinces, has far more legs in Pakistan than any movement for the > rights of religious minorities; ethnicity illustrates the potential > flexibility, but also the limits, of the idea of Pakistan; and even > with respect to ethnicity, the difference of even a Bengali Muslim > identity that was deemed "too Hindu" could not be accommodated within > > the state). > > > A "Kashmir for Kashmiris" is far closer to the idea of Pakistan than > > to the Nehru's India, and perhaps closest of all to Bangladesh, > seeking to compress both 1947 and 1971 in one secessionist moment. Roy > would do well to remember the "Biharis" stranded in refugee camps in > > Bangladesh since 1971, Muslim but not Bangladeshi enough; and she > herself mentions the 1971 genocide of Bengalis by the Pakistani army, > who were not Muslim enough. The promise of the Kashmiri movement > combines both of these nightmares. > > None of this is aboutthe decency or lack thereof of Mirwaiz Farooq, > or Yasin Malik, or anyone else. The question isn't whether these are > or are not upstanding politicians who genuinely believe that Kashmir > belongs to all Kashmiris, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, or Sikh, or not; > the more important question concerns the logic of what they let loose > in the world (more accurately, the logic that they and would-be > nationalists of all stripes have attempted to replicate for decades). > The azadi demanded by the Kashmiri movement, and used by Roy as a > rallying cry, is not the answer to that question; the freedom we need > is azadi from the mindset that thinks of peoples and communities only > in terms of nation-states; and equally, an azadi that demands that the > Indian state honour its promise, to itself and to us. > The nation-state as political Alpha and Omega was problematic in its > European birthplaces to begin with; to continue to cling to it as the > last best hope of ethnic or religious minorities in milieus like > India's (or Africa's, or the Balkans'; pick your poison), in the > wake > of the man-made disasters that have befallen us over the last century, > is nothing short of bankrupt. > > > > > > Umair Ahmed Muhajir is based in New York City. When not blogging at > qalandari.blogspot.com or contributing to naachgaana.com, he makes a > living as a lawyer. > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From Jeebesh at sarai.net Mon Sep 15 17:14:02 2008 From: Jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 17:14:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] An Essay from the archive Message-ID: Fredy Perlman 1984 The Continuing Appeal of Nationalism First published: in the Winter, 1984 Fifth Estate http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/perlman-fredy/1984/nationalism.htm Nationalism was proclaimed dead several times during the present century: after the first world war, when the last empires of Europe, the Austrian and the Turkish, were broken up into self-determined nations, and no deprived nationalists remained, except the Zionists; after the Bolshevik coup d’etat, when it was said that the bourgeoisie’s struggles for self-determination were henceforth superseded by struggles of workingmen, who had no country; after the military defeat of Fascist Italy and National Socialist Germany, when the genocidal corollaries of nationalism had been exhibited for all to see, when it was thought that nationalism as creed and as practice was permanently discredited. Yet forty years after the military defeat of Fascists and National Socialists, we can see that nationalism did not only survive but was born again, underwent a revival. Nationalism has been revived not only by the so-called right, but also and primarily by the so- called left. After the national socialist war, nationalism ceased to be confined to conservatives, became the creed and practice of revolutionaries, and proved itself to be the only revolutionary creed that actually worked. Leftist or revolutionary nationalists insist that their nationalism has nothing in common with the nationalism of fascists and national socialists, that theirs is a nationalism of the oppressed, that it offers personal as well as cultural liberation. The claims of the revolutionary nationalists have been broadcast to the world by the two oldest continuing hierarchic institutions surviving into our times: the Chinese State and, more recently, the Catholic Church. Currently nationalism is being touted as a strategy, science and theology of liberation, as a fulfilment of the Enlightenment’s dictum that knowledge is power, as a proven answer to the question “What Is to be Done?” To challenge these claims, and to see them in a context, I have to ask what nationalism is – not only the new revolutionary nationalism but also the old conservative one. I cannot start by defining the term, because nationalism is not a word with a static definition: it is a term that covers a sequence of different historical experiences. I’ll start by giving a brief sketch of some of those experiences. According to a common (and manipulable) misconception, imperialism is relatively recent, consists of the colonization of the entire world, and is the last stage of capitalism. This diagnosis points to a specific cure: nationalism is offered as the antidote to imperialism: wars of national liberation are said to break up the capitalist empire. This diagnosis serves a purpose, but it does not describe any event or situation. We come closer to the truth when we stand this conception on its head and say that imperialism was the first stage of capitalism, that the world was subsequently colonized by nation- states, and that nationalism is the dominant, the current, and (hopefully) the last stage of capitalism. The facts of the case were not discovered yesterday; they are as familiar as the misconception that denies them. It has been convenient, for various good reasons, to forget that, until recent centuries, the dominant powers of Eurasia were not nation- states but empires. A Celestial Empire ruled by the Ming dynasty, an Islamic Empire ruled by the Ottoman dynasty and a Catholic Empire ruled by the Hapsburg dynasty vied with each other for possession of the known world. Of the three, the Catholics were not the first imperialists but the last. The Celestial Empire of the Mings ruled over most of eastern Asia and had dispatched vast commercial fleets overseas a century before sea-borne Catholics invaded Mexico. The celebrants of the Catholic feat forget that, between 1420 and 1430, Chinese imperial bureaucrat Cheng Ho commanded naval expeditions of 70,000 men and sailed, not only to nearby Malaya, Indonesia and Ceylon, but as far from home ports as the Persian Gulf, the Red Sea and Africa. The celebrants of Catholic conquistadors also belittle the imperial feats of the Ottomans, who conquered all but the westernmost provinces of the former Roman Empire, ruled over North Africa, Arabia, the Middle East and half of Europe, controlled the Mediterranean and hammered on the gates of Vienna. The imperial Catholics set out westward, beyond the boundaries of the known world, in order to escape from encirclement. Nevertheless, it was the imperial Catholics who “discovered America,” and their genocidal destruction and plunder of their “discovery” changed the balance of forces among Eurasia’s empires. Would imperial Chinese or Turks have been less lethal had they “discovered America”? All three empires regarded aliens as less than human and therefore as legitimate prey. The Chinese considered others barbarians; the Muslims and Catholics considered others unbelievers. The term unbeliever is not as brutal as the term barbarian, since an unbeliever ceases to be legitimate prey and becomes a full-fledged human being by the simple act of converting to the true faith, whereas a barbarian remains prey until she or he is made over by the civilizer. The term unbeliever, and the morality behind it, conflicted with the practice of the Catholic invaders. The contradiction between professions and acts was spotted by a very early critic, a priest called Las Casas, who noted that the conversion ceremonies were pretexts for separating and exterminating the unconverted, and that the converts themselves were not treated as fellow Catholics but as slaves. The critiques of Las Casas did little more than embarrass the Catholic Church and Emperor. Laws were passed and investigators were dispatched, but to little effect, because the two aims of the Catholic expeditions, conversion and plunder, were contradictory. Most churchmen reconciled themselves to saving the gold and damning the souls. The Catholic Emperor increasingly depended on the plundered wealth to pay for the imperial household, army, and for the fleets that carried the plunder. Plunder continued to take precedence over conversion, but the Catholics continued to be embarrassed. Their ideology was not altogether suited to their practice. The Catholics made much of their conquests of Aztecs and Incas, whom they described as empires with institutions similar to those of the Hapsburg Empire and the religious practices as demonic as those of the official enemy, the heathen empire of the Ottoman Turks. But the Catholics did not make much of the wars of extermination against communities that had neither emperors nor standing armies. Such feats, although perpetrated regularly, conflicted with the ideology and were less than heroic. The contradiction between the invaders’ professions and their acts was not resolved by the imperial Catholics. It was resolved by harbingers of a new social form, the nation-state. Two harbingers appeared during the same year, 1561, when one of the Emperor’s overseas adventures proclaimed his independence from the empire, and several of the Emperor’s bankers and provisioners launched a war of independence. The overseas adventurer, Lope de Aguirre, failed to mobilize support and was executed. The Emperor’s bankers and provisioners mobilized the inhabitants of several imperial provinces and succeeded in severing the provinces from the empire (provinces which were later called Holland). These two events were not yet struggles of national liberation. They were harbingers of things to come. They were also reminders of things past. In the bygone Roman Empire, Praetorian guards had been engaged to protect the Emperor; the guards had assumed ever more of the Emperor’s functions and had eventually wielded the imperial power instead of the Emperor. In the Arabic Islamic Empire, the Caliph had engaged Turkish bodyguards to protect his person; the Turkish guards, like the earlier Praetorians, had assumed ever more of the Caliph’s functions and had eventually taken over the imperial palace as well as the imperial office. Lope de Aguirre and the Dutch grandees were not the Hapsburg monarch’s bodyguards, but the Andean colonial adventurer and the Dutch commercial and financial houses did wield important imperial functions. These rebels, like the earlier Roman and Turkish guards, wanted to free themselves of the spiritual indignity and material burden of serving the Emperor; they already wielded the Emperor’s powers; the Emperor was nothing more to them than a parasite. Colonial adventurer Aguirre was apparently inept as a rebel; his time had not yet come. The Dutch grandees were not inept, and their time had come. They did not overthrow the empire; they rationalized it. The Dutch commercial and financial houses already possessed much of the New World’s wealth; they had received it as payment for provisioning the Emperor’s fleets, armies and household. They now set out to plunder colonies in their own name and for their own benefit, unshackled by a parasitic overlord. And since they were not Catholics but Calvinist Protestants, they were not embarrassed by any contradiction between professions and acts. They made no profession of saving souls. Their Calvinism told them that an inscrutable God had saved or damned all souls at the beginning of Time and no Dutch priest could alter God’s plan. The Dutch were not crusaders; they confined themselves to unheroic, humorless, and businesslike plunder, calculated and regularized; the plundering fleets departed and returned on schedule. The fact that the plundered aliens were unbelievers became less important than the fact that they were not Dutchmen. West Eurasian forerunners of nationalism coined the term savages. This term was a synonym for the east Eurasian Celestial Empire’s term barbarians. Both terms designated human beings as legitimate prey. During the following two centuries, the invasions, subjugations and expropriations initiated by the Hapsburgs were imitated by other European royal houses. Seen through the lenses of nationalist historians, the initial colonizers as well as their later imitators look like nations: Spain, Holland, England, France. But seen from a vantage point in the past, the colonizing powers are Hapsburgs, Tudors, Stuarts, Bourbons, Oranges – namely dynasties identical to the dynastic families that had been feuding for wealth and power ever since the fall of the western Roman empire. The invaders can be seen from both vantage points because a transition was taking place. The entities were no longer mere feudal estates, but they were not yet full-fledged nations; they already possessed some, but not yet all, the attributes of a nation- state. The most notable missing element was the national army. Tudors and Bourbons already manipulated the Englishness or Frenchness of their subjects, especially during wars against another monarch’s subjects. But neither Scots and Irishmen, not Corsicans and Provencals, were recruited to fight and die for “the love of their country.” War was an onerous feudal burden, a corvée; the only patriots were patriots of Eldorado. The tenets of what was going to become the nationalist creed did not appeal to the ruling dynasts, who clung to their own tried and tested tenets. The new tenets appealed to the dynast’s higher servants, his money-lenders, spice-vendors, military suppliers and colony- plunderers. These people, like Lope de Aguirre and the Dutch grandees, like earlier Roman and Turkish guards, wielded key functions yet remained servants. Many if not most of them burned to shake off the indignity and the burden, to rid themselves of the parasitic overlord, to carry on the exploitation of countrymen and the plunder of colonials in their own name and for their own benefit. Later known as the bourgeoisie or the middle class, these people had become rich and powerful since the days of the first westward- bound fleets. A portion of their wealth had come from the plundered colonies, as payment for the services they had sold to the Emperor; this sum of wealth would later be called a primitive accumulation of capital. Another portion of their wealth had come from the plunder of their own local countrymen and neighbors by a method later known as capitalism; the method was not altogether new, but it became very widespread after the middle classes got their hands on the New World’s silver and gold. These middle classes wielded important powers, but they were not yet experienced in wielding the central political power. In England they overthrew a monarch and proclaimed a commonwealth but, fearing that the popular energies they had mobilized against the upper class could turn against the middle class, they soon restored another monarch of the same dynastic house. Nationalism did not really come into its own until the late 1700s when two explosions, thirteen years apart, reversed the relative standing of the two upper classes and permanently changed the political geography of the globe. In 1776, colonial merchants and adventurers re- enacted Aguirre’s feat of proclaiming their independence from the ruling overseas dynast, outdid their predecessor by mobilizing their fellow-settlers, and succeeded in severing themselves from the Hanoverian British Empire. And in 1789, enlightened merchants and scribes outdid their Dutch forerunners by mobilizing, not a few outlying provinces, but the entire subject population, by overthrowing and slaying the ruling Bourbon monarch, and by remaking all feudal bonds into national bonds. These two events marked the end of an era. Henceforth even the surviving dynasts hastily or gradually became nationalists, and the remaining royal estates took on ever more of the attributes of nation-states. The two eighteenth century revolutions were very different, and they contributed different and even conflicting elements to the creed and practice of nationalism. I do not intend to analyze these events here, but only to remind the reader of some of the elements. Both rebellions successfully broke the bonds of fealty to a monarchic house, and both ended with the establishment of capitalist nation- states, but between the first act and the last they had little in common. The main animators of both revolts were familiar with the rationalistic doctrines of the Enlightenment, but the self-styled Americans confined themselves to political problems, largely to the problem of establishing a state machinery that could take up where King George left off. Many of the French went much further; they posed the problem of restructuring not only the state but all of society; they challenged not only the bond of subject to monarch, but also the bond of slave to master, a bond that remained sacred to the Americans. Both groups were undoubtedly familiar with Jean-Jacques Rousseau’s observation that human beings were born free, yet everywhere were bound in chains, but the French understood the chains more profoundly and made a greater effort to break them. As influenced by rationalistic doctrines as Rousseau himself had been, French revolutionaries tried to apply social reason to the human environment in the same way that natural reason, or science, was starting to be applied to the natural environment. Rousseau had worked at his desk; he had tried to establish social justice on paper, by entrusting human affairs to an entity that embodied the general will. The revolutionaries agitated to establish social justice not only on paper, but in the midst of mobilized and armed human beings, many of them enraged, most of them poor. Rousseau’s abstract entity took the concrete form of a Committee of Public Safety (or Public Health), a police organization that considered itself the embodiment of the general will. The virtuous committee members conscientiously applied the findings of reason to human affairs. They considered themselves the nation’s surgeons. They carved their personal obsessions into society by means of the state’s razor blade. The application of science to the environment took the form of systematic terror. The instrument of Reason and Justice was the guillotine. The Terror decapitated the former rulers and then turned on the revolutionaries. Fear stimulated a reaction that swept away the Terror as well as the Justice. The mobilized energy of bloodthirsty patriots was sent abroad, to impose enlightenment on foreigners by force, to expand the nation into an empire. The provisioning of national armies was far more lucrative than the provisioning of feudal armies ever had been, and former revolutionaries became rich and powerful members of the middle class, which was now the top class, the ruling class. The terror as well as the wars bequeathed a fateful legacy to the creed and practice of later nationalisms. The legacy of the American revolution was of an altogether different kind. The Americans were less concerned with justice, more concerned with property. The settler-invaders on the northern continent’s eastern shore needed George of Hanover no more urgently then Lope de Aguirre had needed Philip of Hapsburg. Or rather, the rich and powerful among the settlers needed King George’s apparatus to protect their wealth, but not to gain it. If they could organize a repressive apparatus on their own, they would not need King George at all. Confident of their ability to launch an apparatus of their own, the colonial slave-holders, land-speculators, produce-exporters and bankers found the King’s taxes and acts intolerable. The most intolerable of the King’s acts was the act that temporarily banned unauthorized incursions into the lands of the continent’s original inhabitants; the King’s advisers had their eyes on the animal furs supplied by indigenous hunters; the revolutionary land-speculators had theirs on the hunters’ lands. Unlike Aguirre, the federated colonizers of the north succeeded in establishing their own independent repressive apparatus, and they did this by stirring up a minimum of cravings for justice; their aim was to overthrow the King’s power, not their own. Rather than rely excessively on their less fortunate fellow-settlers or backwoods squatters, not to speak of their slaves, these revolutionaries relied on mercenaries and on indispensable aid from the Bourbon monarch who would be overthrown a few years later by more virtuous revolutionaries. The North American colonizers broke the traditional bonds of fealty and feudal obligation but, unlike the French, they only gradually replaced the traditional bonds with bonds of patriotism and nationhood. They were not quite a nation; their reluctant mobilization of the colonial countryside had not fused them into one, and the multi- lingual, multi-cultural and socially divided underlying population resisted such a fusion. The new repressive apparatus was not tried and tested, and it did not command the undivided loyalty of the underlying population, which was not yet patriotic. Something else was needed. Slave-masters who had overthrown their king feared that their slaves could similarly overthrow the masters; the insurrection in Haiti made this fear less than hypothetical. And although they no longer feared being pushed into the sea by the continent’s indigenous inhabitants, the traders and speculators worried about their ability to thrust further into the continent’s interior. The American settler-invaders had recourse to an instrument that was not, like the guillotine, a new invention, but that was just as lethal. This instrument would later be called Racism, and it would become embedded in nationalist practice. Racism, like later products of practical Americans, was a pragmatic principle; its content was not important; what mattered was the fact that it worked. Human beings were mobilized in terms of their lowest and most superficial common denominator, and they responded. People who had abandoned their villages and families, who were forgetting their languages and losing their cultures, who were all but depleted of their sociability, were manipulated into considering their skin color a substitute for all they had lost. They were made proud of something that was neither a personal feat nor even, like language, a personal acquisition. They were fused into a nation of white men. (White women and children existed only as scalped victims, as proofs of the bestiality of the hunted prey.) The extent of the depletion is revealed by the nonentities the white men shared with each other: white blood, white thoughts, and membership in a white race. Debtors, squatters and servants, as white men, had everything in common with bankers, land speculators and plantation owners, nothing in common with Redskins, Blackskins or Yellowskins. Fused by such a principle, they could also be mobilized by it, turned into white mobs. Lynch mobs, “Indian fighters.” Racism had initially been one among several methods of mobilizing colonial armies, and although it was exploited more fully in America than it ever had been before, it did not supplant the other methods but rather supplemented them. The victims of the invading pioneers were still described as unbelievers, as heathen. But the pioneers, like the earlier Dutch, were largely Protestant Christians, and they regarded heathenism as something to be punished, not remedied. The victims also continued to be designated as savages, cannibals and primitives, but these terms, too, ceased to be diagnoses of conditions that could be remedied, and tended to become synonyms of non-white, a condition that could not be remedied. Racism was an ideology perfectly suited to a practice of enslavement and extermination. The lynch-mob approach, the ganging-up on victims defined as inferior, appealed to bullies whose humanity was stunted and who lacked any notion of fair play. But this approach did not appeal to everyone. American businessmen, part hustlers and part confidence men, always had something for everyone. For the numerous Saint Georges with some notion of honor and great thirst for heroism, the enemy was depicted somewhat differently; for them there were nations as rich and powerful as their own in the transmontane woodlands and on the shores of the Great Lakes. The celebrants of the heroic feats of imperial Spaniards had found empires in central Mexico and on top of the Andes. The celebrants of nationalist American heroes found nations; they transformed desperate resistances of anarchic villagers into international conspiracies masterminded by military archons such as General Pontiac and General Tecumseh; they peopled the woodlands with formidable national leaders, efficient general staffs, and armies of uncountable patriotic troops; they projected their own repressive structures into the unknown; they saw an exact copy of themselves, with all the colors reversed – something like a photographic negative. The enemy thus became an equal in terms of structure, power and aims. War against such an enemy was not only fair play; it was a dire necessity, a matter of life and death. The enemy’s other attributes – the heathenism, the savagery, the cannibalism – made the tasks of expropriating, enslaving and exterminating all the more urgent, made these feats all the more heroic. The repertory of the nationalist program was now more or less complete. This statement might baffle a reader who cannot yet see any “real nations” in the field. The United States was still a collection of multilingual, multi-religious and multi-cultural “ethnicities,” and the French nation had overflowed its boundaries and turned itself into a Napoleonic empire. The reader might be trying to apply a definition of a nation as an organized territory consisting of people who share a common language, religion and customs, or at least one of the three. Such a definition, clear, pat and static, is not a description of the phenomenon but an apology for it, a justification. The phenomenon was not a static definition but a dynamic process. The common language, religion and customs, like the white blood of the American colonizers, were mere pretexts, instruments for mobilizing armies. The culmination of the process was not an enshrinement of the commonalities, but a depletion, a total loss of language, religion and customs; the inhabitants of a nation spoke the language of capital, worshipped on the altar of the state and confined their customs to those permitted by the national police. Nationalism is the opposite of imperialism only in the realm of definitions. In practice, nationalism was a methodology for conducting the empire of capital. The continual increase of capital, often referred to as material progress, economic development or industrialization, was the main activity of the middle classes, the so-called bourgeoisie, because capital was what they owned, it was their property; the upper classes owned estates. The discovery of new worlds of wealth had enormously enriched these middle classes, but had also made them vulnerable. The kings and nobles who initially gathered the new world’s plundered wealth resented losing all but a few trophies to their middle class merchants. This could not be helped. The wealth did not arrive in usable forms; the merchants supplied the king with things he could use, in exchange for the plundered treasures. Even so, monarchs who saw themselves grow poor while their merchants grew rich were not above using their armed retainers to plunder the wealthy merchants. Consequently the middle classes suffered continual injuries under the old regime – injuries to their property. The king’s army and police were not reliable protectors of middle class property, and the powerful merchants, who already operated the business of the empire, took measures to put an end to the instability; they took the politics in hand as well. They could have hired private armies, and they often did. But as soon as instruments for mobilizing national armies and national police forces appeared on the horizon, the injured businessmen had recourse to them. The main virtue of a national armed force is that it guarantees that a patriotic servant will war alongside his own boss against an enemy boss’s servant. The stability assured by a national repressive apparatus gave the owners something like a hothouse in which their capital could grow, increase, multiply. The term “grow” and its corollaries come from the capitalists’ own vocabulary. These people think of a unit of capital as a grain or seed which they invest in fertile soil. In spring they see a plant grow from each seed. In summer they harvest so many seeds from each plant that, after paying for the soil, sunshine and rain, they still have more seeds than they had initially. The following year they enlarge their field, and gradually the whole countryside becomes improved. In reality, the initial “grains” are money; the sunshine and rain are the expended energies of laborers; the plants are factories, workshops and mines, the harvested fruits are commodities, bits of processed world; and the excess or additional grains, the profits, are emoluments which the capitalist keeps for himself instead of dividing them up among the workers. The process as a whole consisted of the processing of natural substances into saleable items or commodities, and of the incarceration of wage workers in the processing plants. The marriage of Capital with Science was responsible for the great leap forward into what we live in today. Pure scientists discovered the components into which the natural environment could be decomposed; investors placed their bets on the various methods of decomposition; applied scientists or managers saw to it that the wage workers in their charge carried the project through. Social scientists sought ways to make the workers less human, more efficient and machine-like. Thanks to science, capitalists were able to transform much of the natural environment into a processed world, an artifice, and to reduce most human beings into efficient tenders of the artifice. The process of capitalist production was analyzed and criticized by many philosophers and poets, most notably by Karl Marx [1], whose critiques animated, and continue to animate, militant social movements. Marx had a significant blind spot; most of his disciples, and many militants who were not his disciples, built their platforms on that blind spot. Marx was an enthusiastic supporter of the bourgeoisie’s struggle for liberation from feudal bonds. Who was not an enthusiast in those days? He, who observed that the ruling ideas of an epoch were the ideas of the ruling class, shared many of the ideas of the newly empowered middle class. He was an enthusiast of the Enlightenment, of rationalism, of material progress. It was Marx who insightfully pointed out that every time a worker reproduced his labor power, every minute he devoted to his assigned task, he enlarged the material and social apparatus that dehumanized him. Yet the same Marx was an enthusiast for the application of science to production. Marx made a thorough analysis of the production process as an exploitation of labor, but he made only cursory and reluctant comments about the prerequisite for capitalist production, and the initial capital that made the process possible. [2] Without the initial capital, there could have been no investments, no production, no great leap forward. This prerequisite was analyzed by the early Soviet Russian marxist Preobrazhensky, who borrowed several insights from the Polish marxist Rosa Luxemburg to formulate his theory of primitive accumulation. [3] By primitive, Preobrazhensky meant the basement of the capitalist edifice, the foundation, the prerequisite. This prerequisite cannot emerge from the capitalist production process itself, if that process is not yet under way. It must, and does, come from outside the production process. It comes from the plundered colonies. It comes from the expropriated and exterminated populations of the colonies. In earlier days, when there were no overseas colonies, the first capital, the prerequisite for capitalist production, had been squeezed out of internal colonies, out of plundered peasants whose lands were enclosed and crops requisitioned, out of expelled Jews and Muslims whose possessions were expropriated. The primitive or preliminary accumulation of capital is not something that happened once, in the distant past, and never after. It is something that continues to accompany the capitalist production process, and is an integral part of it. The process described by Marx is responsible for the regular profits are periodically destroyed by crises endemic to the system; new injections of preliminary capital are the only known cure to the crises. Without an ongoing primitive accumulation of capital, the production process would stop; each crisis would tend to become permanent. Genocide, the rationally calculated extermination of human populations designated as legitimate prey, has not been an aberration in an otherwise peaceful march of progress. Genocide has been a prerequisite of that progress. This is why national armed forces were indispensable to the wielders of capital. These forces did not only protect the owners of capital from the insurrectionary wrath of their own exploited wage workers. These forces also captured the holy grail, the magic lantern, the preliminary capital, by battering the gates of resisting or unresisting outsiders, by looting, deporting and murdering. The footprints of the national armies are the traces of the march of progress. These patriotic armies were, and still are, the seventh wonder of the world. In them, the wolf lay alongside the lamb, the spider alongside the fly. In them, exploited workers were the chums of exploiters, indebted peasants the chums of creditors, suckers the chums of hustlers in a companionship stimulated not by love but by hatred – hatred of potential sources of preliminary capital designated as unbelievers, savages, inferior races. Human communities as variegated in their ways and beliefs as birds are in feathers were invaded, despoiled and at last exterminated beyond imagination’s grasp. The clothes and artefacts of the vanished communities were gathered up as trophies and displayed in museums as additional traces of the march of progress; the extinct beliefs and ways became the curiosities of yet another of the invaders’ many sciences. The expropriated fields, forests and animals were garnered as bonanzas, as preliminary capital, as the precondition for the production process that was to turn the fields into farms, the trees into lumber, the animals into hats, the minerals into munitions, the human survivors into cheap labor. Genocide was, and still is, the precondition, the cornerstone and ground work of the military- industrial complexes, of the processed environments, of the worlds of offices and parking lots. Nationalism was so perfectly suited to its double task, the domestication of workers and the despoliation of aliens, that it appealed to everyone – everyone, that is, who wielded or aspired to wield a portion of capital. During the nineteenth century, especially during its second half, every owner of investable capital discovered that he had roots among the mobilizable countryfolk who spoke his mother’s tongue and worshipped his father’s gods. The fervor of such a nationalist was transparently cynical, since he was the countryman who no longer had roots among his mother’s or father’s kin: he found his salvation in his savings, prayed to his investments and spoke the language of cost accounting. But he had learned, from Americans and Frenchmen, that although he could not mobilize the countryfolk as loyal servants, clients and customers, he could mobilize them as loyal fellow- Catholics, Orthodox or Protestants. Languages, religions and customs became welding materials for the construction of nation-states. The welding materials were means, not ends. The purpose of the national entities was not to develop languages, religions or customs, but to develop national economies, to turn the countryfolk into workers and soldiers, to turn the motherland into mines and factories, to turn dynastic estates into capitalist enterprises. Without the capital, there could be no munitions or supplies, no national army, no nation. Savings and investments, market research and cost accounting, the obsessions of the rationalistic former middle classes, became the ruling obsessions. These rationalistic obsessions became not only sovereign but also exclusive. Individuals who enacted other obsessions, irrational ones, were put away in madhouses, asylums. The nations usually were but need no longer have been monotheistic; the former god or gods had lost their importance except as welding materials. The nations were mono-obsessive, and if monotheism served the ruling obsession, then it too was mobilized. World War I marked the end of one phase of the nationalizing process, the phase that had begun with the American and French revolutions, the phase that had been announced much earlier by the declaration of Aguirre and the revolt of the Dutch grandees. The conflicting claims of old and newly-constituted nations were in fact the causes of that war. Germany, Italy and Japan, as well as Greece, Serbia and colonial Latin America, had already taken on most of the attributes of their nationalistic predecessors, had become national empires, monarchies and republics, and the more powerful of the new arrivals aspired to take on the main missing attribute, the colonial empire. During that war, all the mobilizable components of the two remaining dynastic empires, the Ottoman and the Hapsburg, constituted themselves into nations. When bourgeoisies with different languages and religions, such as Turks and Armenians, claimed the same territory, the weaker were treated like so-called American Indians; they were exterminated. National Sovereignty and Genocide were – and still are – corollaries. Common language and religion appear to be corollaries of nationhood, but only because of an optical illusion. As welding materials, languages and religions were used when they served their purpose, discarded when they did not. Neither multi-lingual Switzerland nor multi-religious Yugoslavia were banned from the family of nations. The shapes of noses and the color of hair could also have been used to mobilize patriots – and later were. The shared heritages, roots and commonalities had to satisfy only one criterion, the criterion of American-style pragmatic reason: did they work? Whatever worked was used. The shared traits were important, not because of their cultural, historical or philosophical content, but because they were useful for organizing a police to protect the national property and for mobilizing an army to plunder the colonies. Once a nation was constituted, human beings who lived on the national territory but did not possess the national traits could be transformed into internal colonies, namely into sources of preliminary capital. Without preliminary capital, no nation could become a great nation, and nations that aspired to greatness but lacked adequate overseas colonies could resort to plundering, exterminating and expropriating those of their countrymen who did not possess the national traits. The establishment of nation-states was greeted with euphoric enthusiasm by poets as well as peasants who thought their muses or their gods had at last descended to earth. The main wet blankets amidst the waving banners and flying confetti were the former rulers, the colonized, and the disciples of Karl Marx. The overthrown and the colonized were unenthusiastic for obvious reasons. The disciples of Marx were unenthusiastic because they had learned from the master that national liberation meant national exploitation, that the national government was the executive committee of the national capitalist class, that the nation had nothing for workingmen but chains. These strategists for the workingmen, who were not themselves workingmen but were as bourgeois as the ruling capitalists, proclaimed that the workingmen had no country and organized themselves into an International. This International split into three, and each International moved increasingly into the field of Marx’s blind spot. The First International was carried off by Marx’s one-time Russian translator and then antagonist Bakunin, an inveterate rebel who had been a fervent nationalist until he’d learned about exploitation from Marx. Bakunin and his companions, rebels against all authorities, also rebelled against the authority of Marx; they suspected Marx of trying to turn the International into a state as repressive as the feudal and national combined. Bakunin and his followers were unambiguous in their rejection of all states, but they were ambiguous about capitalist enterprise. Even more than Marx, they glorified science, celebrated material progress and hailed industrialization. Being rebels, they considered every fight a good fight, but the best of all was the fight against the bourgeoisie’s former enemies, the fight against feudal landlords and the Catholic Church. Thus the Bakuninist International flourished in places like Spain, where the bourgeoisie had not completed its struggle for independence but had, instead, allied itself with feudal barons and the Church for protection from insurgent workers and peasants. The Bakuninists fought to complete the bourgeois revolution without and against the bourgeoisie. They called themselves anarchists and disdained all states, but did not begin to explain how they would procure the preliminary or the subsequent industry, progress and science, namely the capital, without an army and a police. They were never given a real chance to resolve their contradiction in practice, and present day Bakuninists have still not resolved it, have not even become aware that there is a contradiction between anarchy and industry. The Second International, less rebellious than the first, quickly came to terms with capital as well as the state. Solidly entrenched in Marx’s blind spot, the professors of this organization did not become enmeshed in any Bakuninist contradiction. It was obvious to them that the exploitation and the plunder were necessary conditions for the material progress, and they realistically reconciled themselves to what could not be helped. All they asked for was a greater share of the benefits for the workingmen, and offices in the political establishment for themselves, as the workingmen’s representatives. Like the good unionists who preceded and followed them, the socialist professors were embarrassed by “the colonial question,” but their embarrassment, like Philip Hapsburg’s, merely gave them bad consciences. In time, imperial German socialists, royal Danish socialists and republican French socialists even ceased to be internationalists. The Third International did not only come to terms with capital and the state; it made them its goal. This international was not formed by rebellious or dissenting intellectuals; it was created by a state, the Russian state, after the Bolshevik Party installed itself in that state’s offices. The main activity of this international was to advertise the feats of the revamped Russian state, of its ruling party, and of the party’s founder, a man who called himself Lenin. The feats of that party and founder were indeed momentous, but the advertisers did their best to hide what was most momentous about them. The first world war had left two vast empires in a quandary. The Celestial Empire of China, the oldest continuous state in the world, and the Empire of the Tsars, a much more recent operation, hovered shakily between the prospect of turning themselves into nation-states and the prospect of decomposing into smaller units, like their Ottoman and Hapsburg counterparts had done. Lenin resolved this quandary for Russia. Is such a thing possible? Marx had observed that a single individual could not change circumstances; he could only avail himself of them. Marx was probably right. Lenin’s feat was not to change circumstances, but to avail himself of them in an extraordinary manner. The feat was monumental in its opportunism. Lenin was a Russian bourgeois who cursed the weakness and ineptitude of the Russian bourgeoisie. [4] An enthusiast for capitalist development, an ardent admirer of American-style progress, he did not make common cause with those he cursed, but rather with their enemies, with the Anti-capitalist disciples of Marx. He availed himself of Marx’s blind spot to transform Marx’s critique of the capitalist production process into a manual for developing capital, a “how-to-do- it” guide. Marx’s studies of exploitation and immiseration became food for the famished, a cornucopia, a virtual horn of plenty. American businessmen had already marketed urine as spring water, but no American confidence man had yet managed an inversion of such magnitude. No circumstances were changed. Every step of the inversion was carried out with available circumstances, with tried and tested methods. Russian countryfolk could not be mobilized in terms of their Russianness or orthodoxy or whiteness, but they could be, and were, mobilized in terms of their exploitation, their oppression, their ages of suffering under the despotism of the Tsars. Oppression and exploitation became welding materials. The long sufferings under the Tsars were used in the same way and for the same purpose as the scalpings of white women and children had been used by Americans; they were used to organize people into fighting units, into embryos of the national army and the national police. The presentation of the dictator and of the Party’s central committee as a dictatorship of the liberated proletariat seemed to be something new, but even this was new only in the words that were used. This was something as old as the Pharaohs and Lugals of ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia, who had been chosen by the god to lead the people, who had embodied the people in their dialogues with the god. This was a tried and tested gimmick of rulers. Even if the ancient precedents were temporarily forgotten, a more recent precedent had been provided by the French Committee of Public Health, which had presented itself as the embodiment of the nation’s general will. The goal, communism, the overthrow and supersession of capitalism, also seemed something new, seemed to be a change of circumstances. But only the word was new. the goal of the dictator of the proletariat was still American-style progress, capitalist development, electrification, rapid mass transportation, science, the processing of the natural environment. The goal was the capitalism that the weak and inept Russian bourgeoisie had failed to develop. With Marx’s Capital as their light and guide, the dictator and his Party would develop capitalism in Russia; they would serve as a substitute bourgeoisie, and they would use the power of the state not only to police the process, but to launch and manage it as well. Lenin did not live long enough to demonstrate his virtuosity as general manager of Russian capital, but his successor Stalin amply demonstrated the powers of the founder’s machine. The fist step was the primitive accumulation of capital. If Marx had not been very clear about this, Preobrazhensky had been very clear. Preobrazhensky was jailed, but his description of the tried and tested methods of procuring preliminary capital was applied to vast Russia. The preliminary capital of English, American, Belgian and other capitalists had come from plundered overseas colonies. Russia had no overseas colonies. This lack was no obstacle. The entire Russian countryside was transformed into a colony. The first sources of preliminary capital were Kulaks, peasants who had something worth plundering. This drive was so successful that it was applied to the remaining peasants as well, with the rational expectation that small amounts plundered from many people would yield a substantial hoard. The peasants were not the only colonials. The former ruling class had already been thoroughly expropriated of all its wealth and property, but yet other sources of preliminary capital were found. With the totality of state power concentrated in their hands, the dictators soon discovered that they could manufacture sources of primitive accumulation. Successful entrepreneurs, dissatisfied workers and peasants, militants of competing organizations, even disillusioned Party Members, could be designated as counter- revolutionaries, rounded up, expropriated and shipped off to labor camps. All the deportations, mass executions and expropriations of earlier colonizers were re-enacted in Russia. Earlier colonizers, being pioneers, had resorted to trial and error. The Russian dictators did not have to resort to trial and error. By their time, all the methods of procuring preliminary capital had been tried and tested, and could be scientifically applied. Russian capital developed in a totally controlled environment, a hothouse; every lever, every variable, was controlled by the national police. Functions which had been left to chance or to other bodies in less controlled environments fell to the police in the Russian hothouse. The fact that the colonials were not abroad but within, and therefore subject not to conquest but to arrest, further increased the role and size of the police. In time the omnipotent and omnipresent police became the visible emanation and embodiment of the proletariat, and communism became a synonym of total police organization and control. Lenin’s expectations were not, however, fully realized by the Russian hothouse. The police-as-capitalist worked wonders in procuring preliminary capital from expropriated counter- revolutionaries, but did not do nearly as well in managing the capitalist production process. It may still be too early to tell for sure, but to date this police bureaucracy had been at least as inept in this role as the bourgeoisie Lenin had cursed; its ability to discover ever new sources of preliminary capital seems to be all that has kept it afloat. Nor has the appeal of this apparatus been on a level with Lenin’s expectations. The Leninist police apparatus has not appealed to businessmen or to established politicians; it has not recommended itself as a superior method of managing the production process. It has appealed to a somewhat different social class, a class I will briefly try to describe, and it has recommended itself to this class primarily as a method of seizing national power and secondarily as a method of primitive accumulation of capital. The heirs of Lenin and Stalin have not been actual Praetorian guards, actual wielders of economic and political power in the name and for the benefit of a superfluous monarch; they have been understudy Praetorians, students of economic and political power who despaired of ever reaching even intermediate levels of power. The Leninist model has offered such people the prospect of leaping over the intermediate levels directly into the central palace. The heirs of Lenin were clerks and minor officials, people like Mussolini, Mao Zedong and Hitler, people who, like Lenin himself, cursed their weak and inept bourgeoisies for having failed to establish their nation’s greatness. (I do not include the Zionists among the heirs of Lenin because they belong to an earlier generation. They were Lenin’s contemporaries who had, perhaps independently, discovered the power of persecution and suffering as welding materials for the mobilization of a national army and police. The Zionists made other contributions of their own. Their treatment of a dispersed religious population as a nation, their imposition of the capitalist nation-state as that population’s end-all and be-all, and their reduction of a religious heritage to a racial heritage, contributed significant elements to the nationalist methodology, and would have fateful consequences when they were applied on a population of Jews, not all of them Zionists, by a population welded together as a “German race.”) Mussolini, Mao Zedong and Hitler cut through the curtain of slogans and saw Lenin’s and Stalin’s feats for what they were: successful methods of seizing and maintaining state power. All three trimmed the methodology down to its essentials. The first step was to join up with likeminded students of power and to form the nucleus of the police organization, an outfit called, after Lenin’s, the Party. The next step was to recruit the mass base, the available troops and troop suppliers. The third step was to seize the apparatus of the state, to install the theoretician in the office of Duce, Chairman or Fuehrer, to apportion police and managerial functions among the elite or cadre, and to put the mass base to work. The fourth step was to secure the preliminary capital needed to repair or launch a military-industrial complex capable of supporting the national leader and cadre, the police and army, the industrial managers; without this capital there could be no weapons, no power, no nation. The heirs of Lenin and Stalin further trimmed the methodology, in their recruiting drives, by minimizing capitalist exploitation and by concentrating on national oppression. Talk of exploitation no longer served a purpose, and had in fact become embarrassing, since it was obvious to all, especially to wage workers, that successful revolutionaries had not put an end to wage labor, but had extended its domain. Being as pragmatic as American businessmen, the new revolutionaries did not speak of liberation from wage labor, but of national liberation. [5] This type of liberation was not a dream of romantic utopians; it was precisely what was possible, and all that was possible, in the existing world, one needed only to avail oneself of already existing circumstances to make it happen. National liberation consisted of the liberation of the national chairman and the national police from the chains of powerlessness; the investiture of the chairman and the establishment of the police were not pipe dreams but components of a tried and tested strategy, a science. Fascist and National Socialist Parties were the first to prove that the strategy worked, that the Bolshevik Party’s feat could actually be repeated. The national chairmen and their staffs installed themselves in power and set out to procure the preliminary capital needed for national greatness. The Fascists thrust themselves into one of the last uninvaded regions of Africa and gouged it as earlier industrializers had gouged their colonial empires. The National Socialists targeted Jews, an inner population that had been members of a “unified Germany” as long as other Germans, as their first source of primitive accumulation because many of the Jews, like many of Stalin’s Kulaks, had things worth plundering. Zionists had already preceded the National Socialists in reducing a religion to a race, and National Socialists could look back to American pioneers for ways to use the instrument of racism. Hitler’s elite needed only to translate the corpus of American racist research to equip their scientific institutes with large libraries. The National Socialists dealt with Jews much the same way as the Americans had earlier dealt with the indigenous population of North America, except that the National Socialists applied a later and much more powerful technology to the task of deporting, expropriating and exterminating human beings. But in this the later exterminators were not innovators; they merely availed themselves of the circumstances within their reach. The Fascists and National Socialists were joined by Japanese empire- builders who feared that the decomposing Celestial Empire would become a source of preliminary capital for Russian or revolutionary Chinese industrializers. Forming an Axis, the three set out to turn the world’s continents into sources of primitive accumulation of capital. They were not bothered by other nations until they started to encroach on the colonies and homelands of established capitalist powers. The reduction of already established capitalists to colonized prey could be practised internally, where it was always legal since the nation’s rulers make its laws – and had already been practised internally by Leninists and Stalinists. But such a practice would have amounted to a change of circumstances, and it could not be carried abroad without provoking a world war. The Axis powers overreached themselves and lost. After the war, many reasonable people would speak of the aims of the Axis as irrational and of Hitler as a lunatic. Yet the same reasonable people would consider men like George Washington and Thomas Jefferson sane and rational, even though these men envisioned and began to enact the conquest of a vast continent, the deportation and extermination of the continent’s population, at a time when such a project was much less feasible than the project of the Axis. [6] It is true that the technologies as well as the physical, chemical, biological and social sciences applied by Washington and Jefferson were quite different from those applied by the National Socialists. But if knowledge is power, if it was rational for the earlier pioneers to maim and kill with gunpowder in the age of horse-drawn carriages, why was it irrational for National Socialists to maim and kill with high explosives, gas and chemical agents in the age of rockets, submarines and “freeways”? The Nazis were, if anything, yet more scientifically-oriented than the Americans. In their time, they were a synonym for scientific efficiency to much of the world. They kept files on everything, tabulated and cross tabulated their findings, published their tabulations in scientific journals. Among them, even racism was not the property of frontier rabble-rousers, but of well-endowed institutes. Many reasonable people seem to equate lunacy with failure. This would not be the first time. Many called Napoleon a lunatic when he was in prison or in exile, but when Napoleon re-emerged as the Emperor, the same people spoke of him with respect, even reverence. Incarceration and exile are not only regarded as remedies for lunacy, but also as its symptoms. Failure is foolishness. Mao Zedong, the third pioneering national socialist (or national communist; the second word no longer matters, since it is nothing but a historical relic; the expression “left-wing fascist” would serve as well, but it conveys even less meaning than the nationalist expressions) succeeded in doing for the Celestial Empire what Lenin had done for the Empire of the Tsars. The oldest bureaucratic apparatus in the world did not decompose into smaller units nor into colonies of other industrializers; it re-emerged, greatly changed, as a People’s Republic, as a beacon to “oppressed nations.” The Chairman and his Cadre followed the footsteps of a long line of predecessors and transformed the Celestial Empire into a vast source of preliminary capital, complete with purges, persecutions and their consequent great leaps forward. The next stage, the launching of the capitalist production process, was carried out on the Russian model, namely by the national police. This did not work in China any better than it had in Russia. Apparently the entrepreneurial function was to be entrusted to confidence men or hustlers who are able to take other people in, and cops do not usually inspire the required confidence. But this was less important to Maoists than it had been to Leninists. The capitalist production process remains important, at least as important as the regularized drives for primitive accumulation, since without the capital there is no power, no nation. But the Maoists make few, and ever fewer, claims for their model as a superior method of industrialization, and in this they are more modest than the Russians and less disappointed by the results of their industrial police. The Maoist model offers itself to security guards and students the world over as a tried and tested methodology of power, as a scientific strategy of national liberation. Generally known as Mao- Zedong- Thought [7], this science offers aspiring chairmen and cadres the prospect of unprecedented power over living beings, human activities and even thoughts. The pope and priests of the Catholic Church, with all their inquisitions and confessions, never had such power, not because they would have rejected it, but because they lacked the instruments made available by modern science and technology. The liberation of the nation is the last stage in the elimination of parasites. Capitalism and already earlier cleared nature of parasites and reduced most of the rest of nature to raw materials for processing industries. Modern national socialism or social nationalism holds out the prospect of eliminating parasites from human society as well. The human parasites are usually sources of preliminary capital, but the capital is not always “material”; it can also be cultural or “spiritual.” The ways, myths, poetry and music of the people are liquidated as a matter of course; some of the music and costumes of the former “folk culture” subsequently reappear, processed and packaged, as elements of the national spectacle, as decorations for the national accumulation drives; the ways and myths become raw materials for processing by one or several of the “human sciences.” Even the useless resentment of workers toward their alienated wage labor is liquidated. When the nation is liberated, wage labor ceases to be an onerous burden and becomes a national obligation, to be carried out with joy. The inmates of a totally liberated nation read Orwell’s 1984 as an anthropological study, a description of an earlier age. It is no longer possible to satirize this state of affairs. Every satire risks becoming a bible for yet another national liberation front. [8] Every satirist risks becoming the founder of a new religion, a Buddha, Zarathustra, Jesus, Muhammad or Marx. Every exposure of the ravages of the dominant system, every critique of the system’s functioning, becomes fodder for the horses of liberators, welding materials for builders of armies. Mao-Zedong- Thought in its numerous versions and revisions is a total science as well as a total theology; it is social physics as well as cosmic metaphysics. The French Committee of National Health claimed to embody the general will of only the French nation. The revisions of Mao-Zedong-Thought claim to embody the general will of all the world’s oppressed. The constant revisions of this Thought are necessary because its initial formulations were not applicable to all, or in fact to any, of the world’s colonized populations. None of the world’s colonized shared the Chinese heritage of having supported a state apparatus for the past two thousand years. Few of the world’s oppressed had possessed any of the attributes of a nation in the recent or distant past. The Thought had to be adapted to people whose ancestors had lived without national chairmen, armies or police, without capitalist production processes and therefore without the need for preliminary capital. These revisions were accomplished by enriching the initial Thought with borrowings from Mussolini, Hitler and the Zionist state of Israel. Mussolini’s theory of the fulfilment of the nation in the state was a central tenet. All groups of people, whether small or large, industrial or non-industrial, concentrated or dispersed, were seen as nations, not in terms of their past, but in terms of their aura, their potentiality, a potentiality embedded in their national liberation fronts. Hitler’s (and the Zionists’) treatment of the nation as a racial entity was another central tenet. The cadres were recruited from among people depleted of their ancestors’ kinships and customs, and consequently the liberators were not distinguishable from the oppressors in terms of language, beliefs, customs or weapons; the only welding material that held them to each other and to their mass base was the welding material that had held white servants to white bosses on the American frontier; the “racial bond” gave identities to those without identity, kinship to those who had no kin, community to those who had lost their community; it was the last bond of the culturally depleted. The revised thought could now be applied to Africans as well as Navahos, Apaches as well as Palestinians. [9] The borrowings from Mussolini, Hitler and the Zionists are judiciously covered up, because Mussolini and Hitler failed to hold on to their seized power, and because the successful Zionists have turned their state into the world’s policeman against all other national liberation fronts. Lenin, Stalin and Mao Zedong must be given even more credit than they deserve. The revised and universally applicable models work much the same as the originals, but more smoothly; national liberation has become an applied science; the apparatus has been frequently tested; the numerous kinks in the originals have by now been straightened out. All that is needed to make the contraption run is a driver, a transmission belt, and fuel. The driver is of course the theoretician himself, or his closest disciple. The transmission belt is the general staff, the organization, also called the Party or the communist party. This communist party with a small c is exactly what it is popularly understood to be. It is the nucleus of the police organization that does the purging and that will itself be purged once the leader becomes National Leader and needs to re-revise the invariant Thought while adapting himself to the family of nations, or at least to the family bankers, munitions suppliers and investors. And the fuel: the oppressed nation, the suffering masses, the liberated people are and will continue to be the fuel. The leader and the general staff are not flown in from abroad; they are not foreign agitators. They are integral products of the capitalist production process. This production process has invariably been accompanied by racism. Racism is not a necessary component of production, but racism (in some form) has been a necessary component of the process of primitive accumulation of capital, and it has almost always leaked into the production process. Industrialized nations have procured their preliminary capital by expropriating, deporting, persecuting and segregating, if not always by exterminating, people designated as legitimate prey. Kinships were broken, environments were destroyed, cultural orientations and ways were extirpated. Descendants of survivors of such onslaughts are lucky if they preserve the merest relics, the most fleeting shadows of their ancestors’ cultures. Many of the descendants do not retain even shadows; they are totally depleted; they go to work; they further enlarge the apparatus that destroyed their ancestors’ culture. And in the world of work they are relegated to the margins, to the most unpleasant and least highly paid jobs. This makes them mad. A supermarket packer, for example, may know more about the stocks and the ordering than the manager, may know that racism is the only reason he is not manager and the manager not a packer. A security guard may know racism is the only reason he’s not chief of police. It is among people who have lost all their roots, who dream themselves supermarket managers and chiefs of police, that the national liberation front takes root; this is where the leader and general staff are formed. Nationalism continues to appeal to the depleted because other prospects appear bleaker. The culture of the ancestors was destroyed; therefore, by pragmatic standard, it failed; the only ancestors who survived were those who accommodated themselves to the invader’s system, and they survived on the outskirts of garbage dumps. The varied utopias of poets and dreamers and the numerous “mythologies of the proletariat” have also failed; they have not proven themselves in practice; they have been nothing but hot air, pipe dreams, pies in the sky; the actual proletariat has been as racist as the bosses and the police. The packer and the security guard have lost contact with the ancient culture; pipe dreams and utopias don’t interest them, are in fact dismissed with the practical businessman’s contempt toward poets, drifters and dreamers. Nationalism offers them something concrete, something that’s been tried and tested and is known to work. There’s no earthly reason for the descendants of the persecuted to remain persecuted when nationalism offers them the prospect of becoming persecutors. Near and distant relatives of victims can become a racist nation-state; they can themselves herd other people into concentration camps, push other people around at will, perpetrate genocidal war against them, procure preliminary capital by expropriating them. And if “racial relatives” of Hitler’s victims can do it, so can the near and distant relatives of the victims of a Washington, Jackson, Reagan or Begin. Every oppressed population can become a nation, a photographic negative of the oppressor nation, a place where the former packer is the supermarket’s manager, where the former security guard is the chief of police. By applying the corrected strategy, every security guard can follow the precedent of ancient Rome’s Praetorian guards. The security police of a foreign mining trust can proclaim itself a republic, liberate the people, and go on liberating them until they have nothing left but to pray for liberation to end. Even before the seizure of power, a gang can call itself a Front and offer heavily taxed and constantly policed poor people something they still lack: a tribute-gathering organization and a hit-squad, namely supplementary tax farmers and police, the people’s own. In these ways, people can be liberated of the traits of their victimized ancestors; all the relics that still survive from pre-industrial times and non-capitalist cultures can at last be permanently extirpated. The idea that an understanding of the genocide, that a memory of the holocausts, can only lead people to want to dismantle the system, is erroneous. The continuing appeal of nationalism suggests that the opposite is truer, namely that an understanding of genocide has led people to mobilize genocidal armies, that the memory of holocausts has led people to perpetrate holocausts. The sensitive poets who remembered the loss, the researchers who documented it, have been like the pure scientists who discovered the structure of the atom. Applied scientists used the discovery to split the atom’s nucleus, to produce weapons which can split every atom’s nucleus; Nationalists used the poetry to split and fuse human populations, to mobilize genocidal armies, to perpetrate new holocausts. The pure scientist, poets and researchers consider themselves innocent of the devastated countrysides and charred bodies. Are they innocent? It seems to me that at least one of Marx’s observations is true: every minute devoted to the capitalist production process, every thought contributed to the industrial system, further enlarges a power that is inimical to nature, to culture, to life. Applied science is not something alien; it is an integral part of the capitalist production process. Nationalism is not flown in from abroad. It is a product of the capitalist production process, like the chemical agents poisoning the lakes, air, animals and people, like the nuclear plants radioactivating micro-environments in preparation for the radioactivation of the macro-environment. As a postscript I’d like to answer a question before it is asked. The question is: “Don’t you think a descendant of oppressed people is better off as a supermarket manager or police chief?” My answer is another question: What concentration camp manager, national executioner or torturer is not a descendant of oppressed people? Notes 1. The subtitle of the first volume of Capital is A Critique of Political Economy: The Process of Capitalist Production (published by Charles H. Kerr & Co., 1906; republished by Random House, New York). 2. In Ibid., pp.784-850: Part VIII: “The So-Called Primitive Accumulation.” 3. E. Preobrazhensky, The New Economics (Moscow, 1926; English translation published by Clarendon Press, Oxford, 1965), a book which announced the fateful “law of primitive socialist accumulation.” 4. See V.I. Lenin, The Development of Capitalism in Russia (Moscow: Progress Publishers, 1964; first published in 1899). I quote from page 599: “if...we compare the present rapidity of development with that which could be achieved with the general level of technique and culture as it is today, the present rate of development of capitalism in Russia really must be considered as slow. And it cannot but be slow, for in no single capitalist country has there been such an abundant survival of ancient institutions that are incompatible with capitalism, retard its development, and immeasurably worsen the condition of the producers...” 5. Or the liberation of the state: “Our myth is the nation, our myth is the greatness of the nation”; “It is the state which creates the nation, conferring volition and therefore real life on a people made aware of their moral unity”; “Always the maximum of liberty coincides with the maximum force of the state”; “Everything for the state; nothing against the state; nothing outside the state.” From Che cosa A il fascismo and La dottrina del fascismo, quoted by G.H. Sabine, A History of Political Theory (New York, 1955), pp.872-878. 6. “... the gradual extension of our settlements will as certainly cause the savage, as the wolf, to retire; both being beast of prey, tho’ they differ in shape” (G. Washington in 1783). “... if ever we are constrained to lift the hatchet against any tribe, we will never lay it down till that tribe is exterminated, or driven beyond...” (T. Jefferson in 1807). “... the cruel massacres they have committed on the women and children of our frontiers taken by surprise, will oblige us now to pursue them to extermination, or drive them to new seats beyond our reach” (T. Jefferson in 1813). Quoted by Richard Drinnon inFacing West: The Metaphysics of Indian-Hating and Empire Building (New York: New American Library, 1980), pp.65, 96, 98. 7. Readily available in paper back as Quotations from Chairman Mao (Peking: Political Department of the people’s Liberation Army, 1966). 8. Black & Red tried to satirize this situation over ten years ago with the publication of a fake Manual for Revolutionary Leaders, a “how-to-do-it guide” whose author, Michael Velli, offered to do for the modern revolutionary prince what Machiavelli had offered the feudal prince. This phoney Manualfused Mao-Zedong-Thought with the Thought of Lenin, Stalin, Mussolini, Hitler and their modern followers, and offered grizzly recipes for the preparation of revolutionary organizations and the seizure of total power. Disconcertingly, at least half of the requests for this Manual came from aspiring national liberators, and it is possible that some of the current versions of the nationalist metaphysic contain recipes offered by Michael Velli. 9. I am not exaggerating. I have before me a book-length pamphlet titled The Mythology of the White Proletariat: A Short Course for Understanding Babylon by J. Sakai (Chicago: Morningstar Press, 1983). As an application of Mao-Zedong-Thought to American history, it is the most sensitive Maoist work I’ve seen. The author documents and describes, sometimes vividly, the oppression of America’s enslaved Africans, the deportations and exterminations of the American continent’s indigenous inhabitants, the racist exploitation of Chinese, the incarceration of Japanese- Americans in concentration camps. The author mobilizes all these experiences of unmitigated terror, not to look for ways to supersede the system that perpetrated them, but to urge the victims to reproduce the same system among themselves. Sprinkled with pictures and quotations of chairmen Lenin, Stalin, Mao Zedong and Ho-chi Minh, this work makes no attempt to hide or disguise its repressive aims; it urges Africans as well as Navahos, Apaches as well as Palestinians, to organize a party, seize state power, and liquidate parasites. From jeebesh at sarai.net Mon Sep 15 18:20:38 2008 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 18:20:38 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions Message-ID: <6E13F210-BAAD-4C44-A5CE-865D9F289FC0@sarai.net> dear All, Recently some friends were talking about different way of thinking about Kashmir. The context: The present situation is becoming hardened day by day and dominant nationalism is going to press for all kind of repression. Nationalism has always been spectral. It is in crisis or in resistance that it hardens itself. This "bleeding" politics will take a huge toll. The gigantic USSR conglomeration collapsed under this "bleeding" politics. The policy makers in India will quieten world opinion through a fear of a possible failed state in Kashmir if India withdraws. But the cost of this form of thinking and convincing will be enormous. Possible ways: 1) Creation of a De-militarised Zone. A small UN force stationed. This force could be constituted by men and women from all over the world. The cost of this force is borne by the border countries. 2) Free Trade Agreements with the new State with neighboring countries to facilitate movement of goods. 3) Mobility of people from Kashmir to go India, Pakistan and China without visa. Travel to Kashmir applies for visa. 4) All people having historical links with Kashmir rehabilitated with compensation. 5) A tribunal that looks into all the atrocities with proper trails. 6) Dal Lake, Hazratbal and Amarnath declared world heritage site and protected ETC Being tormented by militarized nationalisms by so many years, the people in Kashmir may come up with amazing social organizations that does not need surveillance and policing as a way of controlling citizens and it's other. Many such suggestions was being given. Did not look that un- realizable. Or is it way of the mark :) warmly jeebesh From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Mon Sep 15 18:37:30 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 18:07:30 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions In-Reply-To: <6E13F210-BAAD-4C44-A5CE-865D9F289FC0@sarai.net> References: <6E13F210-BAAD-4C44-A5CE-865D9F289FC0@sarai.net> Message-ID: Here are my two pennies- : ) To start, this being the holy month of Ramzan, for this month let us start with islamic criminal jurisprudence in Kashmir. The leaders in Kashmir are the first to take advantage of freedom of expression, rights of the individuals assured and guaranteed by indian constitution, but do not accept the duties under the constitution. Worst, they do not respect the indian constitution itself, but want the best of both worlds, that is rights of democracy and islamic state in kashmir. Uniform civil code is not acceptable to these leaders, so let us start with islamic sharia laws for the guilty. Judiciary as per the constitution is taking long to adjudicate the crimes, so for this holy month of Ramzan, let Kashmir be ruled by islamic laws. My imagination is failing me to think of all the consequences that may follow out of this one decision. To start with in sharia all those who ar e against the state are traitors, so the punishment is beheading.! All those who kill others have to pay blood money, and have to be pardoned as otherwise they have to face death. All those who steal, their hands have to be chopped off. So, now the separatist leaders who have been instrumental in getting innocents killed, without any prolonged trials under the constitutional provisions , be tried under sharia, suitable punishment be given. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeebesh Date: Monday, September 15, 2008 6:19 pm Subject: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions To: Sarai Reader-list > dear All, > > Recently some friends were talking about different way of thinking > > about Kashmir. > > The context: The present situation is becoming hardened day by day > and > dominant nationalism is going to press for all kind of repression. > > Nationalism has always been spectral. It is in crisis or in > resistance > that it hardens itself. This "bleeding" politics will take a huge > toll. The gigantic USSR conglomeration collapsed under this > "bleeding" > politics. The policy makers in India will quieten world opinion > through a fear of a possible failed state in Kashmir if India > withdraws. But the cost of this form of thinking and convincing > will > be enormous. > > Possible ways: > > 1) Creation of a De-militarised Zone. A small UN force stationed. > This > force could be constituted by men and women from all over the > world. > The cost of this force is borne by the border countries. > > 2) Free Trade Agreements with the new State with neighboring > countries > to facilitate movement of goods. > > 3) Mobility of people from Kashmir to go India, Pakistan and China > > without visa. Travel to Kashmir applies for visa. > > 4) All people having historical links with Kashmir rehabilitated > with > compensation. > > 5) A tribunal that looks into all the atrocities with proper trails. > > 6) Dal Lake, Hazratbal and Amarnath declared world heritage site > and > protected > > ETC > > Being tormented by militarized nationalisms by so many years, the > people in Kashmir may come up with amazing social organizations > that > does not need surveillance and policing as a way of controlling > citizens and it's other. > > Many such suggestions was being given. Did not look that un- > realizable. Or is it way of the mark :) > > warmly > jeebesh > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 15 18:54:18 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 06:24:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions In-Reply-To: <6E13F210-BAAD-4C44-A5CE-865D9F289FC0@sarai.net> Message-ID: <97563.48544.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Jeebesh   Would you please specify the Borders of this "Demilitarized Zone"   Kshmendra --- On Mon, 9/15/08, Jeebesh wrote: From: Jeebesh Subject: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions To: "Sarai Reader-list" Date: Monday, September 15, 2008, 6:20 PM dear All, Recently some friends were talking about different way of thinking about Kashmir. The context: The present situation is becoming hardened day by day and dominant nationalism is going to press for all kind of repression. Nationalism has always been spectral. It is in crisis or in resistance that it hardens itself. This "bleeding" politics will take a huge toll. The gigantic USSR conglomeration collapsed under this "bleeding" politics. The policy makers in India will quieten world opinion through a fear of a possible failed state in Kashmir if India withdraws. But the cost of this form of thinking and convincing will be enormous. Possible ways: 1) Creation of a De-militarised Zone. A small UN force stationed. This force could be constituted by men and women from all over the world. The cost of this force is borne by the border countries. 2) Free Trade Agreements with the new State with neighboring countries to facilitate movement of goods. 3) Mobility of people from Kashmir to go India, Pakistan and China without visa. Travel to Kashmir applies for visa. 4) All people having historical links with Kashmir rehabilitated with compensation. 5) A tribunal that looks into all the atrocities with proper trails. 6) Dal Lake, Hazratbal and Amarnath declared world heritage site and protected ETC Being tormented by militarized nationalisms by so many years, the people in Kashmir may come up with amazing social organizations that does not need surveillance and policing as a way of controlling citizens and it's other. Many such suggestions was being given. Did not look that un- realizable. Or is it way of the mark :) warmly jeebesh _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 15 19:17:01 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 06:47:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi In-Reply-To: <32144e990809140358x2189752aya57fec0c2203f959@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <366609.29091.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Partha   Do not mean to butt in.   Just wondering whether any 'acts of terrorrising' by the LTTE can be designated as 'acts of terrorising' by Hindus.   Would it not be more apt to link 'acts of terror' with a religious identity when such 'acts of terror' are carried out in the name a particular religion or are solely based on the religious identity?   There are many instances of 'acts of terror by Hindus' which can be so designated because they are carried out in the name of Hinduism or are solely based upon and connected to the Hindu identity of the perpetrators.   Just wondering.   Kshmendra --- On Sun, 9/14/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: From: Partha Dasgupta Subject: Re: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Sunday, September 14, 2008, 4:28 PM Dear Radhika Rajen, In may mails on this list you have pointed out how the elected representative is only a beneficiary divided caste votes and not a true representative. Now you jump to another point altogether and talk about the UPA chairperson and the eloctorate. Please stick to a viewpoint as it is hard to trace what your viewpoint is. If you have changed your viewpoint, then please denote so. In any case, saw the killings (directly and first hand in Delhi) during the Sikh militancy days and have seen communal riots in Baroda, Gujarat; and all I can say is that when herd mentality takes over the common sense is lost. Also, from Babri Masjid to the incapable idiots who got blown up some time back, we have seen Hindu militancy. Either we can agree that militancy in all forms is wrong or we can quibble about shades of right or wrong. So, where do you stand: a) Militancy & armed conflict is wrong OR b) Hindu's are allowed to have a conflict as they have been repressed as a majority and that cases like Godhra, Sikh killings in Delhi and Babri Masjid are justified. Rgds, Partha PS: I do note that when you talk of terror, you never refer to the LTTE (Hindu & Indian) which is considered as one of the most dangerous terrorist organisations and has killed a Prime Minister of India (and is not Muslim or Christian) or the killing of Indira Gandi - or is it that since they were not BJP/RSS that you do not consider them a loss? ..................................................... On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 4:05 PM, wrote: > Without getting in to blame games, the need of the moment is the > chairperson of UPA who is now proxy governor of the nation should have good > introspection of the events and see if her Home Minister who was once > speaker, but discarded by the electorate, got into rajya sabha by nomination > and then is the Home minister, is he capable of any action. A dummy like > Prime minister, again diitto to the governance who has no incentive to > perform as Prime minister being discard beaucrat, has been of yester years, > can not make up his mind to take tough action for fear of votebank getting > "hurt". By this inaction, in actual practise muslims are getting branded as > terrorists for the simple reason, they are not willing to be ready to > identify, isolate and give up those who indulge in terror activities. It is > sad scene indeed. Wheras the hindus do not want violence and bhajrang dal > gets no sympathy for its acts of violence, muslims by floating NGOs to > defend the accused are helping the ter > ror accused, sheltoring the accused for plain and simple lots of money in > the trade of defending the terror. > > regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Priya Sen > Date: Sunday, September 14, 2008 3:18 pm > Subject: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Dear All, > > > > India Gate, September 13th, 6:20 or so in the evening. I had > > decided to walk > > from Triveni Academy towards Khan Market, determined to buy a > > bicycle and > > thinking, it's getting dark and maybe I should wait until Monday > > and I > > shouldn't tell my mother about my biking plans and even though I > > plan to > > ride early mornings I need to ride it back home now and so on and > > so forth. > > India Gate was as India Gate is on a weekend evening. Walking > > through it > > made me think of other times I had been there, a few specific > > memories and a > > general sense of being in Delhi - of familiarity and ease from > > having been > > here for as long as I have, and of curiousity, the kind that comes > > fromknowing that places are never the same - making mental notes > > for no one > > really about the Kwality Walls ice cream cart that had a board > > saying 'Old > > Vendor, India Gate since 1956', and the astrologer who sits in the > > sameplace always, and people with video cameras filming the gate > > who always make > > me wonder at what they think when they play it back later. It > > took 15 > > minutes to cross over to Shah Jahan Road. Me, a couple of young > > men, and a > > papad seller who the policeman who was also waiting for the lights to > > change, generally swore at, and I laughed at how swearing is so > > integral to > > ones day in Delhi. > > > > > > Later I heard there were a couple of bombs that were defused, one > > at Regal > > Cinema and one at India Gate. I realized how many stories there > > are now. Of > > yesterday. Of where we were when.. . Of places we know so well. Of > > our lives > > up until the moment life changed for so many people in our city. > > Of the > > things that make our days what they are and will continue to. > > Everyone will > > have a story because everyone needs to claim something from > > moments like > > these. And everyone (in this city) must because this moment was > > about Delhi. > > It's happened before. Here, in other places, it will happen again > > and again > > and these will be 'the times according to people who live in these > > times'.And all we can really do is to embrace our lives a little > > harder. > > > > The last time I mourned for this city, a little like this, is when > > I watched > > Nanglamachi being demolished and people gathering their lives into > > bundlesand tempos and going wherever. The ruthlessness was > > overwhelming. Not to > > make analogies here. Although nothing wrong with analogies and > > other things > > that make us feel what we feel. No rules for that! Think, feel > > whatever - > > it's all part of the way we make sense of things on day 2. It was like > > watching the news right after the blasts happened, when the > > reporters were > > as bewildered as everyone else. Somehow in their floundering the news > > channels were credible for a moment. Before the information > > started coming > > in and before they started interpreting it, that is. We know what > > they do > > and do well. Nothing is surprising, just a bit defeating and then > > you think > > why. Maybe we're defeated by the way we think, are told to think, > > don'tthink. Maybe sometimes it has nothing to do with how we live. > > > > > > Delhi feels quiet today, but that's also from where I am. Also > > it's Sunday. > > It will probably not seem very different when I go out later in the > > afternoon. But my sister called me this morning and was in tears > > and saying > > she couldn't sleep because of all this and is feeling restless > > because lakhs > > of people are going to be out on the streets today for Ganapati > > visarjan in > > Bombay. For her it's about Bombay as well, the place where she has > > her life. > > When public places become vulnerable it means having to make > > decisions about > > things one doesn't necessarily think about. It's about everything > > outside of > > us that is essential to how we construct our lives. It's about > > everydaydecisions, small things, immediate concerns. About being > > able to imagine, > > and dream and lose ourselves in places. For a few days we will be > > excruciatingly aware of how we move around the city. There will be > > remorseand anxiety and conversation. We will share a common grief, > > in degrees, and > > it will bring us together more intensely. We will count and blame and > > speculate. And then we will thankfully, move on. > > > > > > Right now though, I would rather not. Not for today. I just want > > to be with > > what this city means to me. Aside from its symbols, its creation > > of itself, > > its skewed power dynamics and unbearable inequalities. A friend > > and I are > > convinced that "Delhi steps in when we really need something to.". > > Like the > > wisdom of places. Not to get melodramatic! I'm glad I was here > > when this > > happened and not somewhere else. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Priya > > > > -- > > Priya Sen > > Sarai-CSDS > > 29, Rajpur Road, Civil Lines > > Delhi - 110054 > > priya at sarai.net > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From shuddha at sarai.net Mon Sep 15 22:51:34 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 22:51:34 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Delhi Critical Mass Ride Message-ID: Delhi Critical Mass Ride Friday, September 26, 2008 6:00pm - 7:00pm Vijay Chowk, Near Parliament House, New Delhi Dear All, (Especially those who live in Delhi) Please join the first ever Delhi Critical Mass cycling event. 'Critical Mass' Cyclists will assemble at Vijay Chowk ( between 6:00 and 6:30 and ride through streets of Delhi for about 45 minutes. The idea is to make a statement that cyclists should be given their due respect by other road users. Critical Mass is an event held in almost all major cities of the world, usually on the last Friday of every month, wherein a mass of cyclists ride through the streets of the city. The peak hour bicycle ride gives the subtle message to fellow road users that cyclists too exist. Please give this event the maximum publicity and make it a success by ensuring maximum participation. Show the city that cyclists of Delhi will demand their rightful place on the streets of Delhi. Celebrate cycling! For More Details - See - http://www.new.facebook.com/home.php#/event.php?eid=38702900238&ref=nf ------------- From gautam.bhan at gmail.com Mon Sep 15 23:16:02 2008 From: gautam.bhan at gmail.com (gautam bhan) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 10:46:02 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] Delhi Critical Mass Ride In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear All, While I think its great to have Critical Mass in Delhi, as someone who currently finds himself in a city where it has a long tradition [San Francisco], a few thoughts. In the US, critical mass has become, I would argue, an elite practice, for one, and an event rather than a movement. This is partly because cycling in the US has a very different user profile than in a city like Delhi -- a lot of bikes cost a lot of money, and the bike lobby tends to represent middle class and higher riders and users, many of them white and male. This couldn't be further from the reality of Delhi where riding a cycle is a question of necessity for the vast majority of daily users, and is heavily gendered. My intention in writing today is simple: It would be wonderful if we could think about how to incorporate both cyclists who are commuters and those who are leisure users. There are those who will read this email and hence would be the handful of those wanting to expand cycling space in the city while not needing to commute long distances on their cycles everyday. But how can Critical Mass find ways to bring in the needs of daily commuters, who are dominantly the working poor of the city, not on this e-list [though not necessarily not online]? How will they relate to critical mass? Will their needs as commuter-cyclists and not leisure-cyclists be part of the Critical Mass movement? Will they be part of organising, of forming Critical Mass as a space? Critical Mass began as a political movement in the US. I have to say that it has lost some of that here in the US. I would love for it, in India, to return to that moment of origin and to critically look at its own so that it becomes, or at least tries to be, inclusive, challenging, and political. One simple example: post the car owners screaming in the early days of the BRT in Delhi, the government has already said that it will not have a separate cycle lane in the new BRT corridors coming up -- this is ridiculous and it represents a perfect case where the needs of cyclists on the corridor were sacrificed in an instant when car owners made their voices loud, and without any debate. Organising around the need for a separate lane on the corridor is a practical, tangible and excellent point around which to organise cycle users that are both commuters and leisure cyclists. Could this become part of the Critical Mass agenda? I wish I could be part of it and wasn't so far away. - gautam On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 10:21 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > > Delhi Critical Mass Ride > Friday, September 26, 2008 > 6:00pm - 7:00pm > Vijay Chowk, Near Parliament House, New Delhi > > Dear All, (Especially those who live in Delhi) > > Please join the first ever Delhi Critical Mass cycling event. > 'Critical Mass' Cyclists will assemble at Vijay Chowk ( between 6:00 > and 6:30 and ride through streets of Delhi for about 45 minutes. The > idea is to make a statement that cyclists should be given their due > respect by other road users. > > Critical Mass is an event held in almost all major cities of the > world, usually on the last Friday of every month, wherein a mass of > cyclists ride through the streets of the city. The peak hour bicycle > ride gives the subtle message to fellow road users that cyclists too > exist. > > Please give this event the maximum publicity and make it a success by > ensuring maximum participation. Show the city that cyclists of Delhi > will demand their rightful place on the streets of Delhi. > > Celebrate cycling! > > For More Details - See - > http://www.new.facebook.com/home.php#/event.php?eid=38702900238&ref=nf > > ------------- > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- ___________ I write at: www.kafila.org. From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Mon Sep 15 23:33:48 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 00:03:48 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions Message-ID: > From: Jeebesh > > 1) Creation of a De-militarised Zone. A small UN force stationed. The two biggest suppliers of soldiers to the UN are Bangladesh & Pakistan. BD has been frequently cited as a possible candidate to lead a multi-nation UN peacekeeping force in Iraq. UN peacekeeping has also had an impact on domestic politics http://www.economist.com/world/asia/displaystory.cfm?story_id=8730316 http://www.economist.com/world/asia/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9867423 But I think a BD led UN peacekeeping force in Kashmir would not fly. From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Tue Sep 16 00:23:14 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 11:53:14 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] Vacant OBC seats to go to General Category: SC Message-ID: <6353c690809151153j7ff634b1xaa03791ba7dd5c3b@mail.gmail.com> Vacant OBC seats to go to General Category: SC New Delhi, Sep 15 (PTI) The Supreme Court today said that seats remaining vacant after the implementation of 27 per cent OBC quota in central educational institutions like IITs and IIMs will go to general category candidates and it would be "desirable" not to have huge difference in cut-off marks. A five-judge Constitution Bench headed by Chief Justice K G Balakrishnan, which on April 10 had upheld the validity of the controversial law providing quota, was unanimous that there was no confusion on the issue as the three judges had clearly stated that no seats would go vacant. The anti-quota petitioners drew the attention of the bench that even after the implementation of the law -- the Central Educational Institution (Reservation in admission) -- seats have remained vacant and there was a confusion over it. Senior advocate K K Venugopal referred to the two judgements, one written by Justices Arijit Pasayat and C K Thakker and another by Justice Dalveer Bhandari, to buttress the stand that the seats added in the 27 per cent OBC quota which remained vacant after implementation of the Act cannot go waste. "What is the confusion. It was clarified in the judgement itself that the seats remaining vacant will go to the General Category," Justice Pasayat said. "Both the judgements clearly said that such vacant seats will go to the general category," added Justice Bhandari. At the outset when Venugopal said there was a need for clarification on the aspect of vacant seats, Justice Pasayat said, "This (wasting of seats) cannot be allowed. It will go back to the general category". PTI From parthaekka at gmail.com Tue Sep 16 09:37:54 2008 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 09:37:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi In-Reply-To: <366609.29091.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <32144e990809140358x2189752aya57fec0c2203f959@mail.gmail.com> <366609.29091.qm@web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <32144e990809152107x37ed3edbg37b9e07e13a5869b@mail.gmail.com> Dear Kshmendra, Studied in Baroda / Vadodra and saw communal rights flare up on the weirdest of reasons. Have seen a close friend who wouldn't kill cockroaches try to burn a bus in the frenzy of a mob. As for defining the LTTE as Hindu - my point is different, and is something I have mentioned earlier. The terrorist may belong to any religion or caste or place or whatever - however, lumping all the people of that religion or caste or place as terrorists because one or some people from that group performed 'acts of terrorism' is not justifiable. In short, am against the mass generalization wherein we identify an entire group a 'terrorists'. To put it the other way around, am a Hindu, but do not identify with the demolition of the Babri Masjid or the attacks on Christians that is happening. Just a personal belief, but if any person is converting to another faith for benefits accrued then obviously his faith wasn't strong in the first place & s/he won't be much of a loss. Rgds, Partha ....................................... On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 7:17 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Partha > > Do not mean to butt in. > > Just wondering whether any 'acts of terrorrising' by the LTTE can be > designated as 'acts of terrorising' by Hindus. > > Would it not be more apt to link 'acts of terror' with a religious identity > when such 'acts of terror' are carried out in the name a particular religion > or are solely based on the religious identity? > > There are many instances of 'acts of terror by Hindus' which can be so > designated because they are carried out in the name of Hinduism or are > solely based upon and connected to the Hindu identity of the perpetrators. > > Just wondering. > > Kshmendra > > --- On Sun, 9/14/08, Partha Dasgupta > wrote: > > From: Partha Dasgupta > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi > To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Sunday, September 14, 2008, 4:28 PM > > Dear Radhika Rajen, > > In may mails on this list you have pointed out how the elected > representative is only a beneficiary divided caste votes and not a true > representative. > > Now you jump to another point altogether and talk about the UPA chairperson > and the eloctorate. > > Please stick to a viewpoint as it is hard to trace what your viewpoint is. > If you have changed your viewpoint, then please denote so. > > In any case, saw the killings (directly and first hand in Delhi) during the > Sikh militancy days and have seen communal riots in Baroda, Gujarat; and > all > I can say is that when herd mentality takes over the common sense is lost. > > Also, from Babri Masjid to the incapable idiots who got blown up some time > back, we have seen Hindu militancy. > > Either we can agree that militancy in all forms is wrong or we can quibble > about shades of right or wrong. > > So, where do you stand: > > a) Militancy & armed conflict is wrong > > OR > > b) Hindu's are allowed to have a conflict as they have been repressed as > a > majority > and that cases like Godhra, Sikh killings in Delhi and Babri Masjid > are justified. > > Rgds, Partha > > PS: I do note that when you talk of terror, you never refer to the LTTE > (Hindu & Indian) which is considered as one of the most dangerous terrorist > organisations and has killed a Prime Minister of India (and is not Muslim > or > Christian) or the killing of Indira Gandi - or is it that since they were > not BJP/RSS that you do not consider them a loss? > ..................................................... > > On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 4:05 PM, wrote: > > > Without getting in to blame games, the need of the moment is the > > chairperson of UPA who is now proxy governor of the nation should have > good > > introspection of the events and see if her Home Minister who was once > > speaker, but discarded by the electorate, got into rajya sabha by > nomination > > and then is the Home minister, is he capable of any action. A dummy like > > Prime minister, again diitto to the governance who has no incentive to > > perform as Prime minister being discard beaucrat, has been of yester > years, > > can not make up his mind to take tough action for fear of votebank > getting > > "hurt". By this inaction, in actual practise muslims are getting > branded as > > terrorists for the simple reason, they are not willing to be ready to > > identify, isolate and give up those who indulge in terror activities. It > is > > sad scene indeed. Wheras the hindus do not want violence and bhajrang dal > > gets no sympathy for its acts of violence, muslims by floating NGOs to > > defend the accused are helping the ter > > ror accused, sheltoring the accused for plain and simple lots of money in > > the trade of defending the terror. > > > > regards. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Priya Sen > > Date: Sunday, September 14, 2008 3:18 pm > > Subject: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > Dear All, > > > > > > India Gate, September 13th, 6:20 or so in the evening. I had > > > decided to walk > > > from Triveni Academy towards Khan Market, determined to buy a > > > bicycle and > > > thinking, it's getting dark and maybe I should wait until Monday > > > and I > > > shouldn't tell my mother about my biking plans and even though I > > > plan to > > > ride early mornings I need to ride it back home now and so on and > > > so forth. > > > India Gate was as India Gate is on a weekend evening. Walking > > > through it > > > made me think of other times I had been there, a few specific > > > memories and a > > > general sense of being in Delhi - of familiarity and ease from > > > having been > > > here for as long as I have, and of curiousity, the kind that comes > > > fromknowing that places are never the same - making mental notes > > > for no one > > > really about the Kwality Walls ice cream cart that had a board > > > saying 'Old > > > Vendor, India Gate since 1956', and the astrologer who sits in > the > > > sameplace always, and people with video cameras filming the gate > > > who always make > > > me wonder at what they think when they play it back later. It > > > took 15 > > > minutes to cross over to Shah Jahan Road. Me, a couple of young > > > men, and a > > > papad seller who the policeman who was also waiting for the lights to > > > change, generally swore at, and I laughed at how swearing is so > > > integral to > > > ones day in Delhi. > > > > > > > > > Later I heard there were a couple of bombs that were defused, one > > > at Regal > > > Cinema and one at India Gate. I realized how many stories there > > > are now. Of > > > yesterday. Of where we were when.. . Of places we know so well. Of > > > our lives > > > up until the moment life changed for so many people in our city. > > > Of the > > > things that make our days what they are and will continue to. > > > Everyone will > > > have a story because everyone needs to claim something from > > > moments like > > > these. And everyone (in this city) must because this moment was > > > about Delhi. > > > It's happened before. Here, in other places, it will happen again > > > and again > > > and these will be 'the times according to people who live in > these > > > times'.And all we can really do is to embrace our lives a little > > > harder. > > > > > > The last time I mourned for this city, a little like this, is when > > > I watched > > > Nanglamachi being demolished and people gathering their lives into > > > bundlesand tempos and going wherever. The ruthlessness was > > > overwhelming. Not to > > > make analogies here. Although nothing wrong with analogies and > > > other things > > > that make us feel what we feel. No rules for that! Think, feel > > > whatever - > > > it's all part of the way we make sense of things on day 2. It was > like > > > watching the news right after the blasts happened, when the > > > reporters were > > > as bewildered as everyone else. Somehow in their floundering the news > > > channels were credible for a moment. Before the information > > > started coming > > > in and before they started interpreting it, that is. We know what > > > they do > > > and do well. Nothing is surprising, just a bit defeating and then > > > you think > > > why. Maybe we're defeated by the way we think, are told to think, > > > don'tthink. Maybe sometimes it has nothing to do with how we > live. > > > > > > > > > Delhi feels quiet today, but that's also from where I am. Also > > > it's Sunday. > > > It will probably not seem very different when I go out later in the > > > afternoon. But my sister called me this morning and was in tears > > > and saying > > > she couldn't sleep because of all this and is feeling restless > > > because lakhs > > > of people are going to be out on the streets today for Ganapati > > > visarjan in > > > Bombay. For her it's about Bombay as well, the place where she > has > > > her life. > > > When public places become vulnerable it means having to make > > > decisions about > > > things one doesn't necessarily think about. It's about > everything > > > outside of > > > us that is essential to how we construct our lives. It's about > > > everydaydecisions, small things, immediate concerns. About being > > > able to imagine, > > > and dream and lose ourselves in places. For a few days we will be > > > excruciatingly aware of how we move around the city. There will be > > > remorseand anxiety and conversation. We will share a common grief, > > > in degrees, and > > > it will bring us together more intensely. We will count and blame and > > > speculate. And then we will thankfully, move on. > > > > > > > > > Right now though, I would rather not. Not for today. I just want > > > to be with > > > what this city means to me. Aside from its symbols, its creation > > > of itself, > > > its skewed power dynamics and unbearable inequalities. A friend > > > and I are > > > convinced that "Delhi steps in when we really need something > to.". > > > Like the > > > wisdom of places. Not to get melodramatic! I'm glad I was here > > > when this > > > happened and not somewhere else. > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > Priya > > > > > > -- > > > Priya Sen > > > Sarai-CSDS > > > 29, Rajpur Road, Civil Lines > > > Delhi - 110054 > > > priya at sarai.net > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > list > > > List archive: > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > +919811047132 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From javedmasoo at gmail.com Tue Sep 16 10:18:16 2008 From: javedmasoo at gmail.com (Javed) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 10:18:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] real people behind terror attacks Message-ID: Please look at some of the frightening facts in this letter: ----- AN OPEN LETTER TO THE PRIME MINISTER OF INDIA September 15, 2008 New Delhi Dear Dr. Manmohan Singh, The blasts in Delhi (September 12, 2008) are another in the series of tragic blasts in which scores of people have been killed. We strongly condemn the blasts and demand a proper, unbiased investigation into the same. We demand that the guilty be punished. At the same time it seems that our investigating agencies are ignoring some thing very crucial in the matters of investigating the acts of terror. The acts of terror have been occurring and Home Ministry is watching helplessly. While the current investigation is totally focused around SIMI, many an alleged culprits have been put behind the bars, despite which now some unknown entity Indian Mujahideen seems to have been projected as being responsible for the current ones. At the same time another stark truth is being deliberately sidelined and undermined. And that relates to the blasts done by Bajrang Dal and Hindu Jagran Samiti. We fail to understand as to why the investigation authorities are turning a blind eye to some of the well established facts. 1. In a serious case of blasts in Nanded in April 2006 two Bajarang Dal workers died when making bombs. Similar incidents of bomb blasts were witnessed in many places around that time, Parabhani, Jalna and Aurangabad in Maharashtra. Most of these were in front of the mosques. The Nanded investigation 'leads' were not followed. On the contrary the investigation in that direction was not pursued at all. The attitude of police in this investigation has been totally lax. Social activists made the complaint about this to Human Rights commission. The commission summoned the Superintendent of police, Nanded, in its hearing held on 17th June. The SP failed to turn up for hearing! There seems to be a deliberate cover up of this important finding of Maharashtra Anti terrorist Squad. ATS did investigate the links of the dead with Bajrang Dal, an RSS affiliate. At the same time the injured were visited in the hospital by the top brass of local BJP and associates. Local BJP MP told the police not to harass those related to the culprits in the wake of the Bajrang Dal involvement in the bomb making. In Nanded, ATS also found fake moustache and pajama kurta, the idea being that the culprits will dress like a Muslim while doing these black deeds. 2. A bomb blast took place at the RSS office at Tenkasi, in the Tirunelveli District of Tamil Nadu on January 24. After a thorough investigation, the Tamilnadu Police had arrested 7 persons belonging to Sangh Parivar outfits. They had confessed that they indulged in this terror act to instigate the local Hindu population against the Muslims. On further investigation, the Tamilnadu Police arrested Siva Alias Sivanandam, who is the General Secretary of Hindu Munnani at Kadayanallur, a neighbouring town of Tenkasi. Formed in 1980, Hindu Munnani is a frontal organisation of Sangh Parivar operating in Tamilnadu. Siva, who has earlier worked in quarries in the neighboring state of Kerala had supplied the ammonium nitrate and other raw materials for preparing the bombs. 3. The bombs which exploded in Gadkari Rangayatan on 4th June 2008 injured seven people. Again Maharashtra Anti Terrorist Squad succeeded in nabbing the culprits. The culprits were part of Hindu Janjagaran Samiti (HJS), an outfit of Sanatana Ashram in Panvel. These culprits were also involved in other blasts, in Vashi, Panvel and Ratnagiri. We have not heard anything about the further tracing of this very important lead. 4. On 24th August, in Kanpur two Bajrang Dal workers died while making bombs. Rajiv alias Piyush Mishra and Bhupinder Singh were killed while making crude bombs on Sunday afternoon. On 25th August, Monday, police recovered some crude hand grenades, lead oxide, red lead, potassium nitrate, bomb pins, timers and batteries from the spot, inside a hostel in Kalyanpur area of Kanpur, about 80 km from Lucknow. No further investigation, why? Every time there is a bomb blast immediately the agencies and the media declare that it is done by some Muslim organization without any proof. Hundreds of innocent young boys are picked up, what follows are illegal detentions, torture, arrests, harassment of families, forcing the families and victims to sign blank papers. For years these helpless victims are tortured in jails, denied legal aid, even lawyers who try and fight their cases are attacked openly in courts. Their images tarnished for life time. If they are lucky they get let off after years as neither the agencies or the police have any proof against them. The cacophony of stricter laws rises so that a police can extract a confession by third degree torture and present that as evidence. Through this systematic vilification campaign the process of demonization of minorities continued unabated. If we look at the timing of the terror attacks it is very clear that one and only one political outfit is gaining from it and that is Sangh. With their eyes on the central government their agenda of polarizing the voter is going ahead successfully. On the other hand there are constant attacks on minorities on one pretext or another. Orissa thousands of Christians have been attacked, rendered homeless, their homes ransacked and looted and burnt down, churches attacked and even orphanages are not left alone. Karnataka a similar picture is emerging. We have personally briefed very senior people in the government and the Congress party about the Karnataka situation and that it might explode but nothing was done and we have seen what has happened yesterday. While we write to you now, the police are firing at Muslims in Yakutpura in Vadodara. Yesterday during the Ganpati procession a local dargah was broken down and shops of Muslims looted and ransacked. Already one boy has died and many are injured. Last few days the only Muslim village Nandepeda in the Dangs, Gujarat has been attacked, ransacked. Villagers have been beaten up brutally including women and children. All men have fled to the jungles. The police not only took away all the goods but before going they poured kerosene into the eatable good so that they could not eat anything too. A proposed VHP rally today was stopped after spending 4 hours on the phone and pressuring various police departments. UPA had formed the National Integration Council under tremendous pressure. The first agenda papers which were prepared, if you remember, were highly communal and objectionable. A number of us had raised it during the meeting and the Home Minister had replied' treat them as scrap' in your presence. Probably the Home Minister realized that people like us were too uncomfortable to have in the NIC, who would raise these questions. The NIC was never convened again. It was supposed to meet every six months. The country unfortunately has been given on a platter to the Sangh and the government looks helplessly in providing security to ordinary citizens whether they are victims of terror attacks or victims of the constant attacks by the Sangh Parivar's various outfits. We hope you will intervene and question why are such clear cases of involvement of RSS affiliates in terror attacks being ignored. It seems the investigating authorities deliberately want to cover up the role of RSS affiliates in these acts of terror. Can the real truth behind the dastardly acts come out without properly investigating these incidents, where the culprits' involvement is very clear? We urge upon you to instruct the investigating authorities to pursue the investigation in an unbiased, honest and professional manner. The life of innocent citizens is at stake and such irresponsible cover will definitely prevent the real truth from coming out. For the sake of fairness, honesty and the values of our constitution, we need to pursue these cases in their logical direction. Can we look forward to you, Mr. Prime Minister to make your Government to rise above partisan attitude and unravel the truth behind the blasts which are rocking the country in a painful way? Sincerely Shabnam Hashmi, Member, National Integration Council Ram Puniyani, Social Activist, and writer From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Sep 16 10:47:24 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 10:47:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Pak says no to Kashmir fruit Message-ID: <6b79f1a70809152217j6be58f5ei2f7767d72e0f3cc@mail.gmail.com> "We are shocked to learn that fruits have been excluded from the list. Over 60 Kashmiris have laid down their lives for opening of cross-LoC trade. We are ready to offer more sacrifices for export of fruit. It is not merely a matter of business but our self-respect and identity," president of Kashmir Fruit Growers Association, Ghulam Rasool Bhat" http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=16_9_2008&ItemID=41&cat=1 Srinagar, Sep 15: A day after fruit growers expressed dismay over the non-inclusion of Kashmir fruit in the list of items finalized for the cross-LoC trade, officials of the Jammu and Kashmir government put the ball in Pakistan's court on Monday saying that the other side had approved only a few items and fresh fruits are not included in the final list. A top official of the Industry and Commerce department, wishing anonymity, told *Greater Kashmir*, " It seems that Pakistan has approved only a few items and they have refused to accept fresh fruit from Kashmir." The official said that Pakistan's refusal has not been made public so far. "We are waiting for official communiqué from the union ministry," he added. Sources said that state government had forwarded a list of 26 items to Pakistan for approval. The items included carpets, wall hangings, papier machie, shawls, crewel embroidery, Kashmiri woolen products, cricket bats, silk, Kashmiri dry fruits, Kashmiri wazwan (special food delicacies), basmati rice, fresh fruits, black mushroom, red kidney beans and green tea besides other items. "We are in touch with the officials from other side and are trying to ascertain why they are refusing to include other items proposed by us. So far we haven't received any communiqué from their side," said another official. He said that excluding fresh fruit from the list could hamper the prospects of opening this road for trade. President of Federation Chamber of Industries Kashmir, Shakeel Qalandar said, "We had sent a list of 65 items from our side, but we were told that Pakistan may consider importing only 23 items from this side." Qalanadar said that if Pakistan government approves only a few items then opening of Srinagar- Muzaffarabad Road for trade won't serve any purpose. "It will be then just a symbolic gesture." Meanwhile, an official spokesman today said that the list of items forwarded by India to Pakistan includes fruits, both fresh and dry. List is awaiting approval from Pakistan. The spokesman said that the lists of items for cross-LoC trade had since been exchanged between India and Pakistan. However, the approval of the Government of Pakistan was awaited, he added. Fruit growers in the Kashmir Valley suffered huge loses this year due to the economic blockade over land row. The growers were first to demand opening of Srinagar-Muzaffarabad Road for trade as most of their yield turned into a rot this year. "We are shocked to learn that fruits have been excluded from the list. Over 60 Kashmiris have laid down their lives for opening of cross-LoC trade. We are ready to offer more sacrifices for export of fruit. It is not merely a matter of business but our self-respect and identity," president of Kashmir Fruit Growers Association, Ghulam Rasool Bhat, had told *Greater Kashmir *on Sunday From mail at shivamvij.com Tue Sep 16 12:12:40 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 12:12:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Pak says no to Kashmir fruit In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70809152217j6be58f5ei2f7767d72e0f3cc@mail.gmail.com> References: <6b79f1a70809152217j6be58f5ei2f7767d72e0f3cc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9c06aab30809152342h3eaf2eadu979bbcff439cd4a4@mail.gmail.com> This is really funny. Someone out there is scripting a comedy. The Valley of Kashmir is but a stage. Manto would have been proud of all of us. On 9/16/08, Pawan Durani wrote: > "We are shocked to learn that fruits have been excluded from the list. Over > 60 Kashmiris have laid down their lives for opening of cross-LoC trade. We > are ready to offer more sacrifices for export of fruit. It is not merely a > matter of business but our self-respect and identity," president of Kashmir > Fruit Growers Association, Ghulam Rasool Bhat" > http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=16_9_2008&ItemID=41&cat=1 > > Srinagar, Sep 15: A day after fruit growers expressed dismay over the > non-inclusion of Kashmir fruit in the list of items finalized for the > cross-LoC trade, officials of the Jammu and Kashmir government put the ball > in Pakistan's court on Monday saying that the other side had approved only a > few items and fresh fruits are not included in the final list. > A top official of the Industry and Commerce department, wishing anonymity, > told *Greater Kashmir*, " It seems that Pakistan has approved only a few > items and they have refused to accept fresh fruit from Kashmir." > The official said that Pakistan's refusal has not been made public so far. > "We are waiting for official communiqué from the union ministry," he added. > Sources said that state government had forwarded a list of 26 items to > Pakistan for approval. The items included carpets, wall hangings, papier > machie, shawls, crewel embroidery, Kashmiri woolen products, cricket bats, > silk, Kashmiri dry fruits, Kashmiri wazwan (special food delicacies), > basmati rice, fresh fruits, black mushroom, red kidney beans and green tea > besides other items. > "We are in touch with the officials from other side and are trying to > ascertain why they are refusing to include other items proposed by us. So > far we haven't received any communiqué from their side," said another > official. > He said that excluding fresh fruit from the list could hamper the prospects > of opening this road for trade. > President of Federation Chamber of Industries Kashmir, Shakeel Qalandar > said, "We had sent a list of 65 items from our side, but we were told that > Pakistan may consider importing only 23 items from this side." > Qalanadar said that if Pakistan government approves only a few items then > opening of Srinagar- Muzaffarabad Road for trade won't serve any purpose. > "It will be then just a symbolic gesture." > Meanwhile, an official spokesman today said that the list of items > forwarded by India to Pakistan includes fruits, both fresh and dry. List is > awaiting approval from Pakistan. > The spokesman said that the lists of items for cross-LoC trade had since > been exchanged between India and Pakistan. However, the approval of the > Government of Pakistan was awaited, he added. > Fruit growers in the Kashmir Valley suffered huge loses this year due to > the economic blockade over land row. The growers were first to demand > opening of Srinagar-Muzaffarabad Road for trade as most of their yield > turned into a rot this year. > "We are shocked to learn that fruits have been excluded from the list. Over > 60 Kashmiris have laid down their lives for opening of cross-LoC trade. We > are ready to offer more sacrifices for export of fruit. It is not merely a > matter of business but our self-respect and identity," president of Kashmir > Fruit Growers Association, Ghulam Rasool Bhat, had told *Greater Kashmir *on > Sunday > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- National Highway - http://shivamvij.com/ From krishnanrr at rediffmail.com Tue Sep 16 12:26:30 2008 From: krishnanrr at rediffmail.com (Radhakrishnan) Date: 16 Sep 2008 06:56:30 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] On religious identity of terrorists Message-ID: <20080916065630.45172.qmail@f4mail-235-231.rediffmail.com> LTTE is a fascist organisation in terms of its core beliefs and structure but when it comes to its religious composition it invokes ancient gods and godesses apart from seeking support from the Church. The role and presence of many Christian cadre and leaders are well known. Secondly people who come with such wonderful idear of having sharia and Hindu laws should also introspect the terms and conditions of nation building and the constitution in India. Militarized nationalism, if it refers to presence of the Indian Army, then its quite possible that use of similar yardstick might be sought study the situation i Northeast and areas where anti Naxal operations are being carried out. Lets accept that nationalism, jingoism or terrorism always benefits the upper class in every religion to the detriment of women and other marginalized sections. Radhakrishnan   On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 reader-list-request at sarai.net wrote : >Send reader-list mailing list submissions to > reader-list at sarai.net > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > reader-list-request at sarai.net > >You can reach the person managing the list at > reader-list-owner at sarai.net > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. Some Points from discussions (Jeebesh) > 2. Re: Some Points from discussions (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) > 3. Re: Some Points from discussions (Kshmendra Kaul) > 4. Re: after yesterday in Delhi (Kshmendra Kaul) > 5. Delhi Critical Mass Ride (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) > 6. Re: Delhi Critical Mass Ride (gautam bhan) > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Message: 1 >Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 18:20:38 +0530 > From: Jeebesh >Subject: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions >To: Sarai Reader-list >Message-ID: <6E13F210-BAAD-4C44-A5CE-865D9F289FC0 at sarai.net> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; format=flowed; delsp=yes > >dear All, > >Recently some friends were talking about different way of thinking >about Kashmir. > >The context: The present situation is becoming hardened day by day and >dominant nationalism is going to press for all kind of repression. >Nationalism has always been spectral. It is in crisis or in resistance >that it hardens itself. This "bleeding" politics will take a huge >toll. The gigantic USSR conglomeration collapsed under this "bleeding" >politics. The policy makers in India will quieten world opinion >through a fear of a possible failed state in Kashmir if India >withdraws. But the cost of this form of thinking and convincing will >be enormous. > >Possible ways: > >1) Creation of a De-militarised Zone. A small UN force stationed. This >force could be constituted by men and women from all over the world. >The cost of this force is borne by the border countries. > >2) Free Trade Agreements with the new State with neighboring countries >to facilitate movement of goods. > >3) Mobility of people from Kashmir to go India, Pakistan and China >without visa. Travel to Kashmir applies for visa. > >4) All people having historical links with Kashmir rehabilitated with >compensation. > >5) A tribunal that looks into all the atrocities with proper trails. > >6) Dal Lake, Hazratbal and Amarnath declared world heritage site and >protected > >ETC > >Being tormented by militarized nationalisms by so many years, the >people in Kashmir may come up with amazing social organizations that >does not need surveillance and policing as a way of controlling >citizens and it's other. > >Many such suggestions was being given. Did not look that un- >realizable. Or is it way of the mark :) > >warmly >jeebesh > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 2 >Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 18:07:30 +0500 > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions >To: Jeebesh >Cc: Sarai Reader-list >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >Here are my two pennies- : ) > > To start, this being the holy month of Ramzan, for this month let us start with islamic criminal jurisprudence in Kashmir. The leaders in Kashmir are the first to take advantage of freedom of expression, rights of the individuals assured and guaranteed by indian constitution, but do not accept the duties under the constitution. Worst, they do not respect the indian constitution itself, but want the best of both worlds, that is rights of democracy and islamic state in kashmir. > > Uniform civil code is not acceptable to these leaders, so let us start with islamic sharia laws for the guilty. Judiciary as per the constitution is taking long to adjudicate the crimes, so for this holy month of Ramzan, let Kashmir be ruled by islamic laws. > > My imagination is failing me to think of all the consequences that may follow out of this one decision. To start with in sharia all those who ar e against the state are traitors, so the punishment is beheading.! All those who kill others have to pay blood money, and have to be pardoned as otherwise they have to face death. All those who steal, their hands have to be chopped off. > > So, now the separatist leaders who have been instrumental in getting innocents killed, without any prolonged trials under the constitutional provisions , be tried under sharia, suitable punishment be given. > > Regards. > >----- Original Message ----- > From: Jeebesh >Date: Monday, September 15, 2008 6:19 pm >Subject: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions >To: Sarai Reader-list > > > dear All, > > > > Recently some friends were talking about different way of thinking > > > > about Kashmir. > > > > The context: The present situation is becoming hardened day by day > > and > > dominant nationalism is going to press for all kind of repression. > > > > Nationalism has always been spectral. It is in crisis or in > > resistance > > that it hardens itself. This "bleeding" politics will take a huge > > toll. The gigantic USSR conglomeration collapsed under this > > "bleeding" > > politics. The policy makers in India will quieten world opinion > > through a fear of a possible failed state in Kashmir if India > > withdraws. But the cost of this form of thinking and convincing > > will > > be enormous. > > > > Possible ways: > > > > 1) Creation of a De-militarised Zone. A small UN force stationed. > > This > > force could be constituted by men and women from all over the > > world. > > The cost of this force is borne by the border countries. > > > > 2) Free Trade Agreements with the new State with neighboring > > countries > > to facilitate movement of goods. > > > > 3) Mobility of people from Kashmir to go India, Pakistan and China > > > > without visa. Travel to Kashmir applies for visa. > > > > 4) All people having historical links with Kashmir rehabilitated > > with > > compensation. > > > > 5) A tribunal that looks into all the atrocities with proper trails. > > > > 6) Dal Lake, Hazratbal and Amarnath declared world heritage site > > and > > protected > > > > ETC > > > > Being tormented by militarized nationalisms by so many years, the > > people in Kashmir may come up with amazing social organizations > > that > > does not need surveillance and policing as a way of controlling > > citizens and it's other. > > > > Many such suggestions was being given. Did not look that un- > > realizable. Or is it way of the mark :) > > > > warmly > > jeebesh > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 3 >Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 06:24:18 -0700 (PDT) > From: Kshmendra Kaul >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions >To: Sarai Reader-list , Jeebesh > >Message-ID: <97563.48544.qm at web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > >Dear Jeebesh > >Would you please specify the Borders of this "Demilitarized Zone" > >Kshmendra > >--- On Mon, 9/15/08, Jeebesh wrote: > > From: Jeebesh >Subject: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions >To: "Sarai Reader-list" >Date: Monday, September 15, 2008, 6:20 PM > >dear All, > >Recently some friends were talking about different way of thinking >about Kashmir. > >The context: The present situation is becoming hardened day by day and >dominant nationalism is going to press for all kind of repression. >Nationalism has always been spectral. It is in crisis or in resistance >that it hardens itself. This "bleeding" politics will take a huge >toll. The gigantic USSR conglomeration collapsed under this >"bleeding" >politics. The policy makers in India will quieten world opinion >through a fear of a possible failed state in Kashmir if India >withdraws. But the cost of this form of thinking and convincing will >be enormous. > >Possible ways: > >1) Creation of a De-militarised Zone. A small UN force stationed. This >force could be constituted by men and women from all over the world. >The cost of this force is borne by the border countries. > >2) Free Trade Agreements with the new State with neighboring countries >to facilitate movement of goods. > >3) Mobility of people from Kashmir to go India, Pakistan and China >without visa. Travel to Kashmir applies for visa. > >4) All people having historical links with Kashmir rehabilitated with >compensation. > >5) A tribunal that looks into all the atrocities with proper trails. > >6) Dal Lake, Hazratbal and Amarnath declared world heritage site and >protected > >ETC > >Being tormented by militarized nationalisms by so many years, the >people in Kashmir may come up with amazing social organizations that >does not need surveillance and policing as a way of controlling >citizens and it's other. > >Many such suggestions was being given. Did not look that un- >realizable. Or is it way of the mark :) > >warmly >jeebesh >_________________________________________ >reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >Critiques & Collaborations >To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in >the subject header. >To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >List archive: > > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 4 >Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 06:47:01 -0700 (PDT) > From: Kshmendra Kaul >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi >To: Partha Dasgupta >Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >Message-ID: <366609.29091.qm at web57202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > >Dear Partha > >Do not mean to butt in. > >Just wondering whether any 'acts of terrorrising' by the LTTE can be designated as 'acts of terrorising' by Hindus. > >Would it not be more apt to link 'acts of terror' with a religious identity when such 'acts of terror' are carried out in the name a particular religion or are solely based on the religious identity? > >There are many instances of 'acts of terror by Hindus' which can be so designated because they are carried out in the name of Hinduism or are solely based upon and connected to the Hindu identity of the perpetrators. > >Just wondering. > >Kshmendra > >--- On Sun, 9/14/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > From: Partha Dasgupta >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi >To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net >Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >Date: Sunday, September 14, 2008, 4:28 PM > >Dear Radhika Rajen, > >In may mails on this list you have pointed out how the elected >representative is only a beneficiary divided caste votes and not a true >representative. > >Now you jump to another point altogether and talk about the UPA chairperson >and the eloctorate. > >Please stick to a viewpoint as it is hard to trace what your viewpoint is. >If you have changed your viewpoint, then please denote so. > >In any case, saw the killings (directly and first hand in Delhi) during the >Sikh militancy days and have seen communal riots in Baroda, Gujarat; and all >I can say is that when herd mentality takes over the common sense is lost. > >Also, from Babri Masjid to the incapable idiots who got blown up some time >back, we have seen Hindu militancy. > >Either we can agree that militancy in all forms is wrong or we can quibble >about shades of right or wrong. > >So, where do you stand: > >a) Militancy & armed conflict is wrong > >OR > >b) Hindu's are allowed to have a conflict as they have been repressed as >a >majority > and that cases like Godhra, Sikh killings in Delhi and Babri Masjid >are justified. > >Rgds, Partha > >PS: I do note that when you talk of terror, you never refer to the LTTE >(Hindu & Indian) which is considered as one of the most dangerous terrorist >organisations and has killed a Prime Minister of India (and is not Muslim or >Christian) or the killing of Indira Gandi - or is it that since they were >not BJP/RSS that you do not consider them a loss? >..................................................... > >On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 4:05 PM, wrote: > > > Without getting in to blame games, the need of the moment is the > > chairperson of UPA who is now proxy governor of the nation should have >good > > introspection of the events and see if her Home Minister who was once > > speaker, but discarded by the electorate, got into rajya sabha by >nomination > > and then is the Home minister, is he capable of any action. A dummy like > > Prime minister, again diitto to the governance who has no incentive to > > perform as Prime minister being discard beaucrat, has been of yester >years, > > can not make up his mind to take tough action for fear of votebank getting > > "hurt". By this inaction, in actual practise muslims are getting >branded as > > terrorists for the simple reason, they are not willing to be ready to > > identify, isolate and give up those who indulge in terror activities. It >is > > sad scene indeed. Wheras the hindus do not want violence and bhajrang dal > > gets no sympathy for its acts of violence, muslims by floating NGOs to > > defend the accused are helping the ter > > ror accused, sheltoring the accused for plain and simple lots of money in > > the trade of defending the terror. > > > > regards. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Priya Sen > > Date: Sunday, September 14, 2008 3:18 pm > > Subject: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > Dear All, > > > > > > India Gate, September 13th, 6:20 or so in the evening. I had > > > decided to walk > > > from Triveni Academy towards Khan Market, determined to buy a > > > bicycle and > > > thinking, it's getting dark and maybe I should wait until Monday > > > and I > > > shouldn't tell my mother about my biking plans and even though I > > > plan to > > > ride early mornings I need to ride it back home now and so on and > > > so forth. > > > India Gate was as India Gate is on a weekend evening. Walking > > > through it > > > made me think of other times I had been there, a few specific > > > memories and a > > > general sense of being in Delhi - of familiarity and ease from > > > having been > > > here for as long as I have, and of curiousity, the kind that comes > > > fromknowing that places are never the same - making mental notes > > > for no one > > > really about the Kwality Walls ice cream cart that had a board > > > saying 'Old > > > Vendor, India Gate since 1956', and the astrologer who sits in >the > > > sameplace always, and people with video cameras filming the gate > > > who always make > > > me wonder at what they think when they play it back later. It > > > took 15 > > > minutes to cross over to Shah Jahan Road. Me, a couple of young > > > men, and a > > > papad seller who the policeman who was also waiting for the lights to > > > change, generally swore at, and I laughed at how swearing is so > > > integral to > > > ones day in Delhi. > > > > > > > > > Later I heard there were a couple of bombs that were defused, one > > > at Regal > > > Cinema and one at India Gate. I realized how many stories there > > > are now. Of > > > yesterday. Of where we were when.. . Of places we know so well. Of > > > our lives > > > up until the moment life changed for so many people in our city. > > > Of the > > > things that make our days what they are and will continue to. > > > Everyone will > > > have a story because everyone needs to claim something from > > > moments like > > > these. And everyone (in this city) must because this moment was > > > about Delhi. > > > It's happened before. Here, in other places, it will happen again > > > and again > > > and these will be 'the times according to people who live in >these > > > times'.And all we can really do is to embrace our lives a little > > > harder. > > > > > > The last time I mourned for this city, a little like this, is when > > > I watched > > > Nanglamachi being demolished and people gathering their lives into > > > bundlesand tempos and going wherever. The ruthlessness was > > > overwhelming. Not to > > > make analogies here. Although nothing wrong with analogies and > > > other things > > > that make us feel what we feel. No rules for that! Think, feel > > > whatever - > > > it's all part of the way we make sense of things on day 2. It was >like > > > watching the news right after the blasts happened, when the > > > reporters were > > > as bewildered as everyone else. Somehow in their floundering the news > > > channels were credible for a moment. Before the information > > > started coming > > > in and before they started interpreting it, that is. We know what > > > they do > > > and do well. Nothing is surprising, just a bit defeating and then > > > you think > > > why. Maybe we're defeated by the way we think, are told to think, > > > don'tthink. Maybe sometimes it has nothing to do with how we >live. > > > > > > > > > Delhi feels quiet today, but that's also from where I am. Also > > > it's Sunday. > > > It will probably not seem very different when I go out later in the > > > afternoon. But my sister called me this morning and was in tears > > > and saying > > > she couldn't sleep because of all this and is feeling restless > > > because lakhs > > > of people are going to be out on the streets today for Ganapati > > > visarjan in > > > Bombay. For her it's about Bombay as well, the place where she >has > > > her life. > > > When public places become vulnerable it means having to make > > > decisions about > > > things one doesn't necessarily think about. It's about >everything > > > outside of > > > us that is essential to how we construct our lives. It's about > > > everydaydecisions, small things, immediate concerns. About being > > > able to imagine, > > > and dream and lose ourselves in places. For a few days we will be > > > excruciatingly aware of how we move around the city. There will be > > > remorseand anxiety and conversation. We will share a common grief, > > > in degrees, and > > > it will bring us together more intensely. We will count and blame and > > > speculate. And then we will thankfully, move on. > > > > > > > > > Right now though, I would rather not. Not for today. I just want > > > to be with > > > what this city means to me. Aside from its symbols, its creation > > > of itself, > > > its skewed power dynamics and unbearable inequalities. A friend > > > and I are > > > convinced that "Delhi steps in when we really need something >to.". > > > Like the > > > wisdom of places. Not to get melodramatic! I'm glad I was here > > > when this > > > happened and not somewhere else. > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > Priya > > > > > > -- > > > Priya Sen > > > Sarai-CSDS > > > 29, Rajpur Road, Civil Lines > > > Delhi - 110054 > > > priya at sarai.net > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > list > > > List archive: > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > >-- >Partha Dasgupta >+919811047132 >_________________________________________ >reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >Critiques & Collaborations >To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in >the subject header. >To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >List archive: > > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 5 >Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 22:51:34 +0530 > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta >Subject: [Reader-list] Delhi Critical Mass Ride >To: sarai list >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > >Delhi Critical Mass Ride >Friday, September 26, 2008 >6:00pm - 7:00pm >Vijay Chowk, Near Parliament House, New Delhi > >Dear All, (Especially those who live in Delhi) > >Please join the first ever Delhi Critical Mass cycling event. >'Critical Mass' Cyclists will assemble at Vijay Chowk ( between 6:00 >and 6:30 and ride through streets of Delhi for about 45 minutes. The >idea is to make a statement that cyclists should be given their due >respect by other road users. > >Critical Mass is an event held in almost all major cities of the >world, usually on the last Friday of every month, wherein a mass of >cyclists ride through the streets of the city. The peak hour bicycle >ride gives the subtle message to fellow road users that cyclists too >exist. > >Please give this event the maximum publicity and make it a success by >ensuring maximum participation. Show the city that cyclists of Delhi >will demand their rightful place on the streets of Delhi. > >Celebrate cycling! > >For More Details - See - >http://www.new.facebook.com/home.php#/event.php?eid=38702900238&ref=nf > >------------- > > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 6 >Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 10:46:02 -0700 > From: "gautam bhan" >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Delhi Critical Mass Ride >To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" >Cc: sarai list >Message-ID: > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > >Dear All, > > While I think its great to have Critical Mass in Delhi, as someone who >currently >finds himself in a city where it has a long tradition [San Francisco], a few >thoughts. > > In the US, critical mass has become, I would argue, an elite practice, for >one, and an >event rather than a movement. This is partly because cycling in the US has a >very different >user profile than in a city like Delhi -- a lot of bikes cost a lot of >money, and the bike lobby >tends to represent middle class and higher riders and users, many of them >white and male. >This couldn't be further from the reality of Delhi where riding a cycle is a >question of necessity >for the vast majority of daily users, and is heavily gendered. > > My intention in writing today is simple: It would be wonderful if we could >think about how to >incorporate both cyclists who are commuters and those who are leisure users. > >There are those who will read this email and hence would be the handful of >those >wanting to expand cycling space in the city while not needing to commute >long distances >on their cycles everyday. But how can Critical Mass find ways to bring in >the needs of daily commuters, who >are dominantly the working poor of the city, not on this e-list [though not >necessarily not online]? >How will they relate to critical mass? Will their needs as commuter-cyclists >and not leisure-cyclists >be part of the Critical Mass movement? Will they be part of organising, of >forming Critical Mass as >a space? > > Critical Mass began as a political movement in the US. I have to say that >it has lost some >of that here in the US. I would love for it, in India, to return to that >moment of origin and to >critically look at its own so that it becomes, or at least tries to be, >inclusive, challenging, >and political. > > One simple example: post the car owners screaming in the early days of the >BRT in Delhi, the >government has already said that it will not have a separate cycle lane in >the new BRT >corridors coming up -- this is ridiculous and it represents a perfect case >where the needs >of cyclists on the corridor were sacrificed in an instant when car owners >made their voices >loud, and without any debate. Organising around the need for a separate lane >on the corridor is a practical, tangible >and excellent point around which to organise cycle users that are both >commuters and >leisure cyclists. Could this become part of the Critical Mass agenda? > > I wish I could be part of it and wasn't so far away. > > - gautam > >On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 10:21 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta >wrote: > > > > > Delhi Critical Mass Ride > > Friday, September 26, 2008 > > 6:00pm - 7:00pm > > Vijay Chowk, Near Parliament House, New Delhi > > > > Dear All, (Especially those who live in Delhi) > > > > Please join the first ever Delhi Critical Mass cycling event. > > 'Critical Mass' Cyclists will assemble at Vijay Chowk ( between 6:00 > > and 6:30 and ride through streets of Delhi for about 45 minutes. The > > idea is to make a statement that cyclists should be given their due > > respect by other road users. > > > > Critical Mass is an event held in almost all major cities of the > > world, usually on the last Friday of every month, wherein a mass of > > cyclists ride through the streets of the city. The peak hour bicycle > > ride gives the subtle message to fellow road users that cyclists too > > exist. > > > > Please give this event the maximum publicity and make it a success by > > ensuring maximum participation. Show the city that cyclists of Delhi > > will demand their rightful place on the streets of Delhi. > > > > Celebrate cycling! > > > > For More Details - See - > > http://www.new.facebook.com/home.php#/event.php?eid=38702900238&ref=nf > > > > ------------- > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > >-- >___________ > >I write at: www.kafila.org. > > >------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >reader-list mailing list >reader-list at sarai.net >https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >End of reader-list Digest, Vol 62, Issue 86 >******************************************* From jeebesh at sarai.net Tue Sep 16 13:15:32 2008 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 13:15:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9E60FE5C-9188-4DC2-9171-1EDC7CA79CC3@sarai.net> On 15-Sep-08, at 11:33 PM, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > But I think a BD led UN peacekeeping force in Kashmir would not fly. Why not? :) It will be South Asia in a complex entangle. And Kshmendra, borders are always a contested lines. You could suggest what it could be. From rohitism at gmail.com Tue Sep 16 14:05:03 2008 From: rohitism at gmail.com (Rohit Shetti) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 14:05:03 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Vacant OBC seats to go to General Category: SC In-Reply-To: <6353c690809151153j7ff634b1xaa03791ba7dd5c3b@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690809151153j7ff634b1xaa03791ba7dd5c3b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: The last line is intriguing. "It will go back to general category". What does 'back' imply? Or am I reading too much. Rohit On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 12:23 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Vacant OBC seats to go to General Category: SC > New Delhi, Sep 15 (PTI) The Supreme Court today said that seats > remaining vacant after the implementation of 27 per cent OBC quota in > central educational institutions like IITs and IIMs will go to general > category candidates and it would be "desirable" not to have huge difference > in cut-off marks. > > A five-judge Constitution Bench headed by Chief Justice K G Balakrishnan, > which on April 10 had upheld the validity of the controversial law > providing > quota, was unanimous that there was no confusion on the issue as the three > judges had clearly stated that no seats would go vacant. > > The anti-quota petitioners drew the attention of the bench that even after > the implementation of the law -- the Central Educational Institution > (Reservation in admission) -- seats have remained vacant and there was a > confusion over it. > > Senior advocate K K Venugopal referred to the two judgements, one written > by > Justices Arijit Pasayat and C K Thakker and another by Justice Dalveer > Bhandari, to buttress the stand that the seats added in the 27 per cent OBC > quota which remained vacant after implementation of the Act cannot go > waste. > > "What is the confusion. It was clarified in the judgement itself that the > seats remaining vacant will go to the General Category," Justice Pasayat > said. > > "Both the judgements clearly said that such vacant seats will go to the > general category," added Justice Bhandari. > > At the outset when Venugopal said there was a need for clarification on the > aspect of vacant seats, Justice Pasayat said, "This (wasting of seats) > cannot be allowed. It will go back to the general category". PTI > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From partha.dasgupta at eliteinfomachine.com Tue Sep 16 14:11:22 2008 From: partha.dasgupta at eliteinfomachine.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 14:11:22 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Vacant OBC seats to go to General Category: SC In-Reply-To: References: <6353c690809151153j7ff634b1xaa03791ba7dd5c3b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990809160141x6c909114pf760152205c20a61@mail.gmail.com> Hi, As per the papers (and am clarifying that as the information I have is gleaned off the dailies) what the precis is that once the SC/ST and OBC percentage is decided, they will not drop the percentage any lower - and that any balance seats will be moved to the General Quota so that any applicants who fulfill the criteria will be admitted. However, as we all know, there is 'many a slip between the cup and the lip' as far as the government is concerned, so we'll just have to wait for implementation to see how this ruling is translated. Rgds, Partha ......................... On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 2:05 PM, Rohit Shetti wrote: > The last line is intriguing. "It will go back to general category". What > does 'back' imply? Or am I reading too much. > > Rohit > > On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 12:23 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: > > > Vacant OBC seats to go to General Category: SC > > New Delhi, Sep 15 (PTI) The Supreme Court today said that seats > > remaining vacant after the implementation of 27 per cent OBC quota in > > central educational institutions like IITs and IIMs will go to general > > category candidates and it would be "desirable" not to have huge > difference > > in cut-off marks. > > > > A five-judge Constitution Bench headed by Chief Justice K G Balakrishnan, > > which on April 10 had upheld the validity of the controversial law > > providing > > quota, was unanimous that there was no confusion on the issue as the > three > > judges had clearly stated that no seats would go vacant. > > > > The anti-quota petitioners drew the attention of the bench that even > after > > the implementation of the law -- the Central Educational Institution > > (Reservation in admission) -- seats have remained vacant and there was a > > confusion over it. > > > > Senior advocate K K Venugopal referred to the two judgements, one written > > by > > Justices Arijit Pasayat and C K Thakker and another by Justice Dalveer > > Bhandari, to buttress the stand that the seats added in the 27 per cent > OBC > > quota which remained vacant after implementation of the Act cannot go > > waste. > > > > "What is the confusion. It was clarified in the judgement itself that the > > seats remaining vacant will go to the General Category," Justice Pasayat > > said. > > > > "Both the judgements clearly said that such vacant seats will go to the > > general category," added Justice Bhandari. > > > > At the outset when Venugopal said there was a need for clarification on > the > > aspect of vacant seats, Justice Pasayat said, "This (wasting of seats) > > cannot be allowed. It will go back to the general category". PTI > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 16 15:38:02 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 03:08:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions In-Reply-To: <9E60FE5C-9188-4DC2-9171-1EDC7CA79CC3@sarai.net> Message-ID: <340858.69890.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Jeebesh   The "Demilitarized Zone" is your proposal and not mine. You should be the one to specify its borders. Unless, as is more than likely and is apparent, you have done very little thinking over the idea you have floated.      Kshmendra --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Jeebesh wrote: From: Jeebesh Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions To: "Sarai Reader-list" Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 1:15 PM On 15-Sep-08, at 11:33 PM, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > But I think a BD led UN peacekeeping force in Kashmir would not fly. Why not? :) It will be South Asia in a complex entangle. And Kshmendra, borders are always a contested lines. You could suggest what it could be. _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From jeebesh at sarai.net Tue Sep 16 16:14:25 2008 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 16:14:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions In-Reply-To: <340858.69890.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <340858.69890.qm@web57206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <03AC047D-2F40-457A-9FA4-B2715A5B2D86@sarai.net> Another Floater :) For a serious referendum to happen a very wide area has to be demilitarized on both side of the present border. There can be a popular suffrage to mark the border and hopefully something better than the present situation may emerge. But my floater was not so much about the real-politic of border making. It was about thinking a side ways to get out of this "bleeding" politics and use all the various available international institutions and instruments to arrive at some new arrangements. warmly Jeebesh On 16-Sep-08, at 3:38 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Jeebesh > > > > The "Demilitarized Zone" is your proposal and not mine. You should > be the one to specify its borders. Unless, as is more than likely > and is apparent, you have done very little thinking over the idea > you have floated. > > > > > > Kshmendra > > --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Jeebesh wrote: > > From: Jeebesh > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 1:15 PM > > On 15-Sep-08, at 11:33 PM, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > > > But I think a BD led UN peacekeeping force in Kashmir would not fly. > > Why not? :) It will be South Asia in a complex entangle. > > And Kshmendra, borders are always a contested lines. You could suggest > what it could be. > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From asitredsalute at gmail.com Tue Sep 16 16:25:59 2008 From: asitredsalute at gmail.com (Asit asitreds) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 16:25:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] AN OPEN LETTER TO THE PRIME MINISTER OF INDIA Message-ID: * * *Please Endorse this letter* *Regards* *Asit * *AN OPEN LETTER TO THE PRIME MINISTER OF INDIA* September 15, 2008 New Delhi Dear Dr. Manmohan Singh, The blasts in Delhi (September 12, 2008) are another in the series of tragic blasts in which scores of people have been killed. We strongly condemn the blasts and demand a proper, unbiased investigation into the same. We demand that the guilty be punished. At the same time it seems that our investigating agencies are ignoring some thing very crucial in the matters of investigating the acts of terror. The acts of terror have been occurring and Home Ministry is watching helplessly. While the current investigation is totally focused around SIMI, many an alleged culprits have been put behind the bars, despite which now some unknown entity Indian Mujahideen seems to have been projected as being responsible for the current ones. At the same time another stark truth is being deliberately sidelined and undermined. And that relates to the blasts done by Bajrang Dal and Hindu Jagran Samiti. We fail to understand as to why the investigation authorities are turning a blind eye to some of the well established facts. 1. In a serious case of blasts in Nanded in April 2006 two Bajarang Dal workers died when making bombs. Similar incidents of bomb blasts were witnessed in many places around that time, Parabhani, Jalna and Aurangabad in Maharashtra. Most of these were in front of the mosques. The Nanded investigation 'leads' were not followed. On the contrary the investigation in that direction was not pursued at all. The attitude of police in this investigation has been totally lax. Social activists made the complaint about this to Human Rights commission. The commission summoned the Superintendent of police, Nanded, in its hearing held on 17th June. The SP failed to turn up for hearing! There seems to be a deliberate cover up of this important finding of Maharashtra Anti terrorist Squad. ATS did investigate the links of the dead with Bajrang Dal, an RSS affiliate. At the same time the injured were visited in the hospital by the top brass of local BJP and associates. Local BJP MP told the police not to harass those related to the culprits in the wake of the Bajrang Dal involvement in the bomb making. In Nanded, ATS also found fake moustache and pajama kurta, the idea being that the culprits will dress like a Muslim while doing these black deeds. 2. A bomb blast took place at the RSS office at Tenkasi, in the Tirunelveli District of Tamil Nadu on January 24. After a thorough investigation, the Tamilnadu Police had arrested 7 persons belonging to Sangh Parivar outfits. They had confessed that they indulged in this terror act to instigate the local Hindu population against the Muslims. On further investigation, the Tamilnadu Police arrested Siva Alias Sivanandam, who is the General Secretary of Hindu Munnani at Kadayanallur, a neighbouring town of Tenkasi. Formed in 1980, Hindu Munnani is a frontal organisation of Sangh Parivar operating in Tamilnadu. Siva, who has earlier worked in quarries in the neighboring state of Kerala had supplied the ammonium nitrate and other raw materials for preparing the bombs. 3. The bombs which exploded in Gadkari Rangayatan on 4th June 2008 injured seven people. Again Maharashtra Anti Terrorist Squad succeeded in nabbing the culprits. The culprits were part of Hindu Janjagaran Samiti (HJS), an outfit of Sanatana Ashram in Panvel. These culprits were also involved in other blasts, in Vashi, Panvel and Ratnagiri. We have not heard anything about the further tracing of this very important lead. 4. On 24th August, in Kanpur two Bajrang Dal workers died while making bombs. Rajiv alias Piyush Mishra and Bhupinder Singh were killed while making crude bombs on Sunday afternoon. On 25th August, Monday, police recovered some crude hand grenades, lead oxide, red lead, potassium nitrate, bomb pins, timers and batteries from the spot, inside a hostel in Kalyanpur area of Kanpur, about 80 km from Lucknow. No further investigation, why? Every time there is a bomb blast immediately the agencies and the media declare that it is done by some Muslim organization without any proof. Hundreds of innocent young boys are picked up, what follows are illegal detentions, torture, arrests, harassment of families, forcing the families and victims to sign blank papers. For years these helpless victims are tortured in jails, denied legal aid, even lawyers who try and fight their cases are attacked openly in courts. Their images tarnished for life time. If they are lucky they get let off after years as neither the agencies or the police have any proof against them. The cacophony of stricter laws rises so that a police can extract a confession by third degree torture and present that as evidence. Through this systematic vilification campaign the process of demonization of minorities continued unabated. If we look at the timing of the terror attacks it is very clear that one and only one political outfit is gaining from it and that is Sangh. With their eyes on the central government their agenda of polarizing the voter is going ahead successfully. On the other hand there are constant attacks on minorities on one pretext or another. Orissa thousands of Christians have been attacked, rendered homeless, their homes ransacked and looted and burnt down, churches attacked and even orphanages are not left alone. Karnataka a similar picture is emerging. We have personally briefed very senior people in the government and the Congress party about the Karnataka situation and that it might explode but nothing was done and we have seen what has happened yesterday. While we write to you now, the police are firing at Muslims in Yakutpura in Vadodara. Yesterday during the Ganpati procession a local dargah was broken down and shops of Muslims looted and ransacked. Already one boy has died and many are injured. Last few days the only Muslim village Nandepeda in the Dangs, Gujarat has been attacked, ransacked. Villagers have been beaten up brutally including women and children. All men have fled to the jungles. The police not only took away all the goods but before going they poured kerosene into the eatable good so that they could not eat anything too. A proposed VHP rally today was stopped after spending 4 hours on the phone and pressuring various police departments. UPA had formed the National Integration Council under tremendous pressure. The first agenda papers which were prepared, if you remember, were highly communal and objectionable. A number of us had raised it during the meeting and the Home Minister had replied' treat them as scrap' in your presence. Probably the Home Minister realized that people like us were too uncomfortable to have in the NIC, who would raise these questions. The NIC was never convened again. It was supposed to meet every six months. The country unfortunately has been given on a platter to the Sangh and the government looks helplessly in providing security to ordinary citizens whether they are victims of terror attacks or victims of the constant attacks by the Sangh Parivar's various outfits. We hope you will intervene and question why are such clear cases of involvement of RSS affiliates in terror attacks being ignored. It seems the investigating authorities deliberately want to cover up the role of RSS affiliates in these acts of terror. Can the real truth behind the dastardly acts come out without properly investigating these incidents, where the culprits' involvement is very clear? We urge upon you to instruct the investigating authorities to pursue the investigation in an unbiased, honest and professional manner. The life of innocent citizens is at stake and such irresponsible cover will definitely prevent the real truth from coming out. For the sake of fairness, honesty and the values of our constitution, we need to pursue these cases in their logical direction. Can we look forward to you, Mr. Prime Minister to make your Government to rise above partisan attitude and unravel the truth behind the blasts which are rocking the country in a painful way? Sincerely Shabnam Hashmi, Member, National Integration Council Ram Puniyani, Social Activist, and writer Parimal Maya Sudhakar, ex-Vice President, JNUSU Asit, Researcher & Social Activist From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 16 16:50:28 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 04:20:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions In-Reply-To: <03AC047D-2F40-457A-9FA4-B2715A5B2D86@sarai.net> Message-ID: <956559.62329.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Jeebesh   You are overstepping yourself. We are still on Point 1 of  your "possible ways" arising from your "some friends were talking about different way of thinking about Kashmir."   "Referendum" was not in the menu of "possible ways" you floated. Let us get back to your "Demilitarized Zone"   You say that a "wide area" has to be De-militarized. That is a meaningless generality. Specify that "wide area" if you can. You will not be able to do it if you have not thought over the "possible ways" you have floated. Do some thinking first.   You suggest a "popular suffrage" to mark the "border". Over what "area" do you propose that this "popular suffrage" will take place? In that "area" who will participate?   Obviously the "suffrage" cannot take place specifically in any proposed "wide area" on "both sides of  the border" which you seek to De-militarize because the very purpose of the "suffrage" is to demarcate precisely that "wide area".   Kshmendra   --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Jeebesh wrote: From: Jeebesh Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions To: "Sarai Reader-list" Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 4:14 PM Another Floater :) For a serious referendum to happen a very wide area has to be demilitarized on both side of the present border. There can be a popular suffrage to mark the border and hopefully something better than the present situation may emerge. But my floater was not so much about the real-politic of border making. It was about thinking a side ways to get out of this "bleeding" politics and use all the various available international institutions and instruments to arrive at some new arrangements. warmly Jeebesh On 16-Sep-08, at 3:38 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Jeebesh > > > > The "Demilitarized Zone" is your proposal and not mine. You should > be the one to specify its borders. Unless, as is more than likely > and is apparent, you have done very little thinking over the idea > you have floated. > > > > > > Kshmendra > > --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Jeebesh wrote: > > From: Jeebesh > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 1:15 PM > > On 15-Sep-08, at 11:33 PM, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > > > But I think a BD led UN peacekeeping force in Kashmir would not fly. > > Why not? :) It will be South Asia in a complex entangle. > > And Kshmendra, borders are always a contested lines. You could suggest > what it could be. > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 16 17:07:34 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 04:37:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi In-Reply-To: <32144e990809152107x37ed3edbg37b9e07e13a5869b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <555100.70334.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Partha   My questioning of the LTTE being called Hindu was to help me in my discussions with my own self.   I am still struggling in my mind over 'what is terror'; 'who is a terrorist'; 'when should an organisation (or a system) be called a terrorist one' and 'when should an act of terror, or a terrorist, or a terrorist organisation be identified with an ideology/religion/place/societal group'.   There is total agreement with your words:   """""" The terrorist may belong to any religion or caste or place or whatever - however, lumping all the people of that religion or caste or place as terrorists because one or some people from that group performed 'acts of terrorism' is not justifiable."""""""   Kshmendra       --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: From: Partha Dasgupta Subject: Re: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 9:37 AM Dear Kshmendra, Studied in Baroda / Vadodra and saw communal rights flare up on the weirdest of reasons. Have seen a close friend who wouldn't kill cockroaches try to burn a bus in the frenzy of a mob. As for defining the LTTE as Hindu - my point is different, and is something I have mentioned earlier. The terrorist may belong to any religion or caste or place or whatever - however, lumping all the people of that religion or caste or place as terrorists because one or some people from that group performed 'acts of terrorism' is not justifiable. In short, am against the mass generalization wherein we identify an entire group a 'terrorists'. To put it the other way around, am a Hindu, but do not identify with the demolition of the Babri Masjid or the attacks on Christians that is happening. Just a personal belief, but if any person is converting to another faith for benefits accrued then obviously his faith wasn't strong in the first place & s/he won't be much of a loss. Rgds, Partha ....................................... On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 7:17 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: Dear Partha   Do not mean to butt in.   Just wondering whether any 'acts of terrorrising' by the LTTE can be designated as 'acts of terrorising' by Hindus.   Would it not be more apt to link 'acts of terror' with a religious identity when such 'acts of terror' are carried out in the name a particular religion or are solely based on the religious identity?   There are many instances of 'acts of terror by Hindus' which can be so designated because they are carried out in the name of Hinduism or are solely based upon and connected to the Hindu identity of the perpetrators.   Just wondering.   Kshmendra --- On Sun, 9/14/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: From: Partha Dasgupta Subject: Re: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Sunday, September 14, 2008, 4:28 PM Dear Radhika Rajen, In may mails on this list you have pointed out how the elected representative is only a beneficiary divided caste votes and not a true representative. Now you jump to another point altogether and talk about the UPA chairperson and the eloctorate. Please  stick to a viewpoint as it is hard to trace what your viewpoint is. If you have changed your viewpoint, then please denote so. In any case, saw the killings (directly and first hand in Delhi) during the Sikh militancy days and have seen communal riots in Baroda, Gujarat; and all I can say is that when herd mentality takes over the common sense is lost. Also, from Babri Masjid to the incapable idiots who got blown up some time back, we have seen Hindu militancy. Either we can agree that militancy in all forms is wrong or we can quibble about shades of right or wrong. So, where do you stand: a)   Militancy & armed conflict is wrong OR b)   Hindu's are allowed to have a conflict as they have been repressed as a majority      and that cases like Godhra, Sikh killings in Delhi and Babri Masjid are justified. Rgds, Partha PS: I do note that when you talk of terror, you never refer to the LTTE (Hindu & Indian) which is considered as one of the most dangerous terrorist organisations and has killed a Prime Minister of India (and is not Muslim or Christian) or the killing of Indira Gandi - or is it that since they were not BJP/RSS that you do not consider them a loss? ..................................................... On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 4:05 PM, wrote: > Without getting in to blame games, the need of the moment is the > chairperson of UPA who is now proxy governor of the nation should have good > introspection of the events and see if her Home Minister who was once > speaker, but discarded by the electorate, got into rajya sabha by nomination >  and then is the Home minister, is he capable of any action. A dummy like > Prime minister, again diitto to the governance who has no incentive to > perform as Prime minister being discard beaucrat, has been  of yester years, > can not make up his mind to take tough action for fear of votebank getting > "hurt". By this inaction, in actual practise muslims are getting branded as > terrorists for the simple reason, they are not willing to be ready to > identify, isolate and give up those who indulge in terror activities. It is > sad scene indeed. Wheras the hindus do not want violence and bhajrang dal > gets no sympathy for its acts of violence, muslims by floating NGOs to > defend the accused are helping the ter > ror accused, sheltoring the accused for plain and simple lots of money in > the trade of defending the terror. > > regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Priya Sen > Date: Sunday, September 14, 2008 3:18 pm > Subject: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Dear All, > > > > India Gate, September 13th, 6:20 or so in the evening. I had > > decided to walk > > from Triveni Academy towards Khan Market, determined to buy a > > bicycle and > > thinking, it's getting dark and maybe I should wait until Monday > > and I > > shouldn't tell my mother about my biking plans and even though I > > plan to > > ride early mornings I need to ride it back home now and so on and > > so forth. > > India Gate was as India Gate is on a weekend evening. Walking > > through it > > made me think of other times I had been there, a few specific > > memories and a > > general sense of being in Delhi - of familiarity and ease from > > having been > > here for as long as I have, and of curiousity, the kind that comes > > fromknowing that places are never the same - making mental notes > > for no one > > really about the Kwality Walls ice cream cart that had a board > > saying 'Old > > Vendor, India Gate since 1956', and the astrologer who sits in the > > sameplace always, and people with video cameras filming the gate > > who always make > > me wonder at what they think  when they play it back later. It > > took 15 > > minutes to cross over to Shah Jahan Road. Me, a couple of young > > men, and a > > papad seller who the policeman who was also waiting for the lights to > > change, generally swore at, and I laughed at how swearing is so > > integral to > > ones day in Delhi. > > > > > > Later I heard there were a couple of bombs that were defused, one > > at Regal > > Cinema and one at India Gate. I realized how many stories there > > are now. Of > > yesterday. Of where we were when.. . Of places we know so well. Of > > our lives > > up until the moment life changed for so many people in our city. > > Of the > > things that make our days what they are and will continue to. > > Everyone will > > have a story because everyone needs to claim something from > > moments like > > these. And everyone (in this city) must because this moment was > > about Delhi. > > It's happened before. Here, in other places, it will happen again > > and again > > and these will be 'the times according to people who live in these > > times'.And all we can really do is to embrace our lives a little > > harder. > > > > The last time I mourned for this city, a little like this, is when > > I watched > > Nanglamachi being demolished and people gathering their lives into > > bundlesand tempos and going wherever. The ruthlessness was > > overwhelming. Not to > > make analogies here. Although nothing wrong with analogies and > > other things > > that make us feel what we feel. No rules for that! Think, feel > > whatever - > > it's all part of the way we make sense of things on day 2. It was like > > watching the news right after the blasts happened, when the > > reporters were > > as bewildered as everyone else. Somehow in their floundering the news > > channels were credible for a moment. Before the information > > started coming > > in and before they started interpreting it, that is. We know what > > they do > > and do well. Nothing is surprising, just a bit defeating and then > > you think > > why. Maybe we're defeated by the way we think, are told to think, > > don'tthink. Maybe sometimes it has nothing to do with how we live. > > > > > > Delhi feels quiet today, but that's also from where I am. Also > > it's Sunday. > > It will probably not seem very different when I go out later in the > > afternoon. But my sister called me this morning and was in tears > > and saying > > she couldn't sleep because of all this and is feeling restless > > because lakhs > > of people are going to be out on the streets today for Ganapati > > visarjan in > > Bombay. For her it's about Bombay as well, the place where she has > > her life. > > When public places become vulnerable it means having to make > > decisions about > > things one doesn't necessarily think about. It's about everything > > outside of > > us that is essential to how we construct our lives. It's about > > everydaydecisions, small things, immediate concerns. About being > > able to imagine, > > and dream and lose ourselves in places. For a few days we will be > > excruciatingly aware of how we move around the city. There will be > > remorseand anxiety and conversation. We will share a common grief, > > in degrees, and > > it will bring us together more intensely. We will count and blame and > > speculate. And then we will thankfully, move on. > > > > > > Right now though, I would rather not. Not for today. I just want > > to be with > > what this city means to me. Aside from its symbols, its creation > > of itself, > > its skewed power dynamics and unbearable inequalities. A friend > > and I are > > convinced that "Delhi steps in when we really need something to.". > > Like the > > wisdom of places. Not to get melodramatic! I'm glad I was here > > when this > > happened and not somewhere else. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Priya > > > > -- > > Priya Sen > > Sarai-CSDS > > 29, Rajpur Road, Civil Lines > > Delhi - 110054 > > priya at sarai.net > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From jeebesh at sarai.net Tue Sep 16 17:44:50 2008 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 17:44:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions In-Reply-To: <956559.62329.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <956559.62329.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Is it so difficult as you make it out to be? enclosed is the UN resolution in 1951. Surely many maps and documents about border was submitted. It can be ascertained and worked out. warmly jeebesh http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/kashun91.htm Resolution 91 (1951) Concerning the India-Pakistan question submitted by the Representatives of United Kingdom and United States and adopted by the Security Council on March 30, 1951. (Document No. S/2017/Rev. 1, dated the 30th March, 1951). THE SECURITY COUNCIL, Having received and noted the report of Sir Owen Dixon, the United Nations Representative for India and Pakistan on his mission initiated by the Security Council resolution 80 (1950) of March 14, 1950. Observing that the Governments of India and Pakistan have accepted the provisions of the United Nations Commission for India and Pakistan resolutions of 13 August, 1948, and 5 January, 1949, and have re-affirmed their desire that the future of the State of Jammu and Kashmir shall be decided through the democratic method of a free and impartial plebiscite conducted under the auspices of the United Nations. Observing that on 27 October, 1950, the General Council of the "All Jammu and Kashmir National Conference" adopted a resolution recommending the convening of a Constituent Assembly for the purpose of determining the "future shape and affiliations of the State of Jammu and Kashmir"; observing further from statements of responsible authorities that action is proposed to convene such a Constituent Assembly and that the area from which such a Constituent Assembly would be elected is only a part of the whole territory of Jammu and Kashmir. Reminding the Governments and authorities concerned of the principle embodied in its resolutions 47 (1948) of 21 April 1948, 51(1948) of 3 June, 1948 and 80 (1950) of 14 March, 1950 and the United Nations Commission for India and Pakistan resolutions of 13 August, 1948, and 5 January, 1949, that the final disposition of the State of Jammu and Kashmir will be made in accordance with the will of the people expressed through the democratic method of a free and impartial plebiscite conducted under the auspices of the United Nations. Affirming that the convening of a Constituent Assembly as recommended by the General Council of the "All Jammu and Kashmir National Conference" and any action that Assembly might attempt to take to determine the future shape and affiliation of the entire State or any part thereof would not constitute a disposition of the State in accordance with the above principle. Declaring its belief that it is the duty of the Security Council in carrying out its primary responsibility for the maintenance of international peace and security to aid the parties to reach an amicable solution of the Kashmir dispute and that a prompt settlement of this dispute is of vital importance to the maintenance of international peace and security. Observing from Sir Owen Dixon's report that the main points of difference preventing agreement between the parties were: (a) The procedure for and the extent of demilitarisation of the State preparatory to the holding of a plebiscite, and (b) The degree of control over the exercise of the functions of Government in the State necessary to ensure a free and fair plebiscite. (1) Accepts, in compliance with his request, Sir Owen Dixon's resignation and expresses its gratitude to Sir Owen Dixon's resignation and expresses its gratitude to Sir Owen for the great ability and devotion with which he carried out his mission; (2) Decides to appoint a United Nations Representative for India and Pakistan in succession to Sir Owen Dixon; (3) Instructs the United Nations Representative to proceed to the sub- continent and, after consultation with the Governments of India and Pakistan, to effect the demilitarisation of the State of Jammu and Kashmir on the basis of the United Nations Commission for India and Pakistan resolutions of 13 August, 1948, and, 5 January, 1949; (4) Calls upon the parties to co-operate with the United Nations Representative to the fullest degree in effecting the demilitarisation of the State of Jammu and Kashmir; (5) Instructs the United Nations Representatives to report to the Security Council within three months from the date of his arrival on the sub-continent; if at the time of this report, he has not effected demilitarisation in accordance with paragraph three above, or obtained the agreement of the parties to a plan for effecting such demilitarisation, the United Nations Representative shall report to the Security Council those points of difference between the parties in regard to the interpretation and execution of the agreed resolutions of 13 August, 1948, and 5 January, 1949, which he considers must be resolved to enable such demilitarisation to be carried out; (6) Calls upon the parties, in the event of their discussions with the United Nations Representative failing in his opinion to result in full agreement, to accept arbitration upon all outstanding points of difference reported by the United Nations representative in accordance with paragraph five above. Such arbitration to be carried 'out by an arbitrator, or a panel of arbitrators, to be appointed by the President of the International Court of Justice after consultation with the parties; (7) Decides that the Military Observer Group shall continue to supervise the cease-fire in the State; (8) Requests the Governments of India and Pakistan to ensure that their cement regarding the cease-fire shall continue to be faithfully observed and calls them to take all possible measures to ensure the creation and maintenance of an atmosphere favourable to the promotion of further negotiations and to refrain from any likely to prejudice a just and peaceful settlement; (9) Requests the Secretary-General to provide the United Nations Representative for India and Pakistan with such services and facilities as may be necessary in carrying out the terms of this resolution. The Security Council voted on this Resolution on 30-3-51 with the following result: In favour: Brazil, China, Ecuador, France, Netherlands, Turkey, U.K. and U.S.A. Against: None Abstaining: India, U.S.S.R. and Yugoslavia. On 16-Sep-08, at 4:50 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Jeebesh > > You are overstepping yourself. We are still on Point 1 of your > "possible ways" arising from your "some friends were talking about > different way of thinking about Kashmir." > > "Referendum" was not in the menu of "possible ways" you floated. Let > us get back to your "Demilitarized Zone" > > You say that a "wide area" has to be De-militarized. That is a > meaningless generality. Specify that "wide area" if you can. You > will not be able to do it if you have not thought over the "possible > ways" you have floated. Do some thinking first. > > You suggest a "popular suffrage" to mark the "border". Over what > "area" do you propose that this "popular suffrage" will take place? > In that "area" who will participate? > > Obviously the "suffrage" cannot take place specifically in any > proposed "wide area" on "both sides of the border" which you seek > to De-militarize because the very purpose of the "suffrage" is to > demarcate precisely that "wide area". > > Kshmendra > > > > --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Jeebesh wrote: > > From: Jeebesh > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 4:14 PM > > Another Floater :) > > For a serious referendum to happen a very wide area has to be > demilitarized on both side of the present border. There can be a > popular suffrage to mark the border and hopefully something better > than the present situation may emerge. > > But my floater was not so much about the real-politic of border > making. It was about thinking a side ways to get out of this > "bleeding" politics and use all the various available international > institutions and instruments to arrive at some new arrangements. > > warmly > Jeebesh > > > On 16-Sep-08, at 3:38 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > >> Dear Jeebesh >> >> >> >> The "Demilitarized Zone" is your proposal and not mine. You > should >> be the one to specify its borders. Unless, as is more than likely >> and is apparent, you have done very little thinking over the idea >> you have floated. >> >> >> >> >> >> Kshmendra >> >> --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Jeebesh wrote: >> >> From: Jeebesh >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions >> To: "Sarai Reader-list" >> Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 1:15 PM >> >> On 15-Sep-08, at 11:33 PM, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: >> >>> But I think a BD led UN peacekeeping force in Kashmir would not fly. >> >> Why not? :) It will be South Asia in a complex entangle. >> >> And Kshmendra, borders are always a contested lines. You could >> suggest >> what it could be. >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in >> the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From vivek at sarai.net Tue Sep 16 18:21:19 2008 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 18:21:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions In-Reply-To: <956559.62329.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <956559.62329.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48CFABC7.40008@sarai.net> Kshemendra, I understand from your comments below that you think that any possible "post-national" solution to the question of Kashmir is hogwash, dreamy, silly, unthinkable-- in the same way that the idea of a nation-state with a democratic polity was completely unthinkable a few hundred years ago? After all, it is not the specifics of one plan or another that you are objecting to, it is the very idea itself, correct? Fine-- but my question is, what is your solution? Do you think violently assertive forcible Indian military occupation, objected to by the majority of the Kashmiri population, with all kinds of ripple effects including (possibly) the steadily increasing militancy and radicalisation of the population, the increasing bitterness that reduces the chances of reconcilliation and peace day by day, and only increasingly so, should and can continue until kingdom come? Or do you have any other ideas and possibilities in mind? I ask this as an earnest question, out of curiousity, not as a polemical point. Vivek Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Jeebesh > > You are overstepping yourself. We are still on Point 1 of your "possible ways" arising from your "some friends were talking about different way of thinking about Kashmir." > > "Referendum" was not in the menu of "possible ways" you floated. Let us get back to your "Demilitarized Zone" > > You say that a "wide area" has to be De-militarized. That is a meaningless generality. Specify that "wide area" if you can. You will not be able to do it if you have not thought over the "possible ways" you have floated. Do some thinking first. > > You suggest a "popular suffrage" to mark the "border". Over what "area" do you propose that this "popular suffrage" will take place? In that "area" who will participate? > > Obviously the "suffrage" cannot take place specifically in any proposed "wide area" on "both sides of the border" which you seek to De-militarize because the very purpose of the "suffrage" is to demarcate precisely that "wide area". > > Kshmendra > > > > --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Jeebesh wrote: > > From: Jeebesh > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 4:14 PM > > Another Floater :) > > For a serious referendum to happen a very wide area has to be > demilitarized on both side of the present border. There can be a > popular suffrage to mark the border and hopefully something better > than the present situation may emerge. > > But my floater was not so much about the real-politic of border > making. It was about thinking a side ways to get out of this > "bleeding" politics and use all the various available international > institutions and instruments to arrive at some new arrangements. > > warmly > Jeebesh > > > On 16-Sep-08, at 3:38 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > >> Dear Jeebesh >> >> >> >> The "Demilitarized Zone" is your proposal and not mine. You >> > should > >> be the one to specify its borders. Unless, as is more than likely >> and is apparent, you have done very little thinking over the idea >> you have floated. >> >> >> >> >> >> Kshmendra >> >> --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Jeebesh wrote: >> >> From: Jeebesh >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions >> To: "Sarai Reader-list" >> Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 1:15 PM >> >> On 15-Sep-08, at 11:33 PM, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: >> >> >>> But I think a BD led UN peacekeeping force in Kashmir would not fly. >>> >> Why not? :) It will be South Asia in a complex entangle. >> >> And Kshmendra, borders are always a contested lines. You could suggest >> what it could be. >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in >> the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From parthaekka at gmail.com Tue Sep 16 18:25:14 2008 From: parthaekka at gmail.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 18:25:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi In-Reply-To: <555100.70334.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <32144e990809152107x37ed3edbg37b9e07e13a5869b@mail.gmail.com> <555100.70334.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <32144e990809160555l1ddc587dm6b0af067ccaa323d@mail.gmail.com> Dear Kshmendra, The questions you have asked about 'what is terror', etc is something I would not like to elaborate on as each has his/her own interpretation. Bhagat Singh is a freedom fighter as far as we Indians are concerned, but for the govt of the day he was a terrorist. There is no 'standard' definition of what a terrorist is and each person / entity would translate the word in their own way. As for defining LTTE as Hindu terrorists - guess that question is wide open depending upon what we use as the pointer. If the primary factor is what religion / group do they belong to, then we'd have a ready answer. If, however, we look beyond and try to identify the aim / purpose behind the conflict, there'd be another answer all together - some of them not very clear. Even if a 'terrorist' follows a ideology/religion/place/societal group - that's a personal root that s/he has. It does not follow that all people of the ideology/religion/place/societal group follow the same radical conclusion. Guess we could go on and on - fact is that we'll all equate the phrase 'terrorist' from our personal point of view and experiences. Apologies for sounding vague, but you started a line of thought that I'd never really looked at before. Rgds, Partha ................................. On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 5:07 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Partha > > My questioning of the LTTE being called Hindu was to help me in my > discussions with my own self. > > I am still struggling in my mind over 'what is terror'; 'who is a > terrorist'; 'when should an organisation (or a system) be called a terrorist > one' and 'when should an act of terror, or a terrorist, or a terrorist > organisation be identified with an ideology/religion/place/societal group'. > > There is total agreement with your words: > > """""" The terrorist may belong to any religion or caste or place or > whatever - however, lumping all the people of that religion or caste or > place as terrorists because one or some people from that group performed > 'acts of terrorism' is not justifiable.""""""" > > Kshmendra > > > > > > --- On *Tue, 9/16/08, Partha Dasgupta * wrote: > > From: Partha Dasgupta > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 9:37 AM > > > Dear Kshmendra, > Studied in Baroda / Vadodra and saw communal rights flare up on > the weirdest of reasons. Have seen a close friend who wouldn't kill > cockroaches try to burn a bus in the frenzy of a mob. > > As for defining the LTTE as Hindu - my point is different, and is something > I have mentioned earlier. The terrorist may belong to any religion or caste > or place or whatever - however, lumping all the people of that religion or > caste or place as terrorists because one or some people from that group > performed 'acts of terrorism' is not justifiable. > > In short, am against the mass generalization wherein we identify an entire > group a 'terrorists'. > > To put it the other way around, am a Hindu, but do not identify with the > demolition of the Babri Masjid or the attacks on Christians that is > happening. Just a personal belief, but if any person is converting to > another faith for benefits accrued then obviously his faith wasn't strong in > the first place & s/he won't be much of a loss. > > Rgds, Partha > ....................................... > > On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 7:17 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > >> Dear Partha >> >> Do not mean to butt in. >> >> Just wondering whether any 'acts of terrorrising' by the LTTE can be >> designated as 'acts of terrorising' by Hindus. >> >> Would it not be more apt to link 'acts of terror' with a religious >> identity when such 'acts of terror' are carried out in the name a particular >> religion or are solely based on the religious identity? >> >> There are many instances of 'acts of terror by Hindus' which can be so >> designated because they are carried out in the name of Hinduism or are >> solely based upon and connected to the Hindu identity of the perpetrators. >> >> Just wondering. >> >> Kshmendra >> >> --- On Sun, 9/14/08, Partha Dasgupta < >> partha.dasgupta at eliteinfomachine.com> wrote: >> >> From: Partha Dasgupta >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi >> To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net >> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >> Date: Sunday, September 14, 2008, 4:28 PM >> >> Dear Radhika Rajen, >> >> In may mails on this list you have pointed out how the elected >> representative is only a beneficiary divided caste votes and not a true >> representative. >> >> Now you jump to another point altogether and talk about the UPA >> chairperson >> and the eloctorate. >> >> Please stick to a viewpoint as it is hard to trace what your viewpoint >> is. >> If you have changed your viewpoint, then please denote so. >> >> In any case, saw the killings (directly and first hand in Delhi) during >> the >> Sikh militancy days and have seen communal riots in Baroda, Gujarat; and >> all >> I can say is that when herd mentality takes over the common sense is lost. >> >> Also, from Babri Masjid to the incapable idiots who got blown up some time >> back, we have seen Hindu militancy. >> >> Either we can agree that militancy in all forms is wrong or we can quibble >> about shades of right or wrong. >> >> So, where do you stand: >> >> a) Militancy & armed conflict is wrong >> >> OR >> >> b) Hindu's are allowed to have a conflict as they have been repressed as >> a >> majority >> and that cases like Godhra, Sikh killings in Delhi and Babri Masjid >> are justified. >> >> Rgds, Partha >> >> PS: I do note that when you talk of terror, you never refer to the LTTE >> (Hindu & Indian) which is considered as one of the most dangerous >> terrorist >> organisations and has killed a Prime Minister of India (and is not Muslim >> or >> Christian) or the killing of Indira Gandi - or is it that since they were >> not BJP/RSS that you do not consider them a loss? >> ..................................................... >> >> On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 4:05 PM, wrote: >> >> > Without getting in to blame games, the need of the moment is the >> > chairperson of UPA who is now proxy governor of the nation should have >> good >> > introspection of the events and see if her Home Minister who was once >> > speaker, but discarded by the electorate, got into rajya sabha by >> nomination >> > and then is the Home minister, is he capable of any action. A dummy >> like >> > Prime minister, again diitto to the governance who has no incentive to >> > perform as Prime minister being discard beaucrat, has been of yester >> years, >> > can not make up his mind to take tough action for fear of votebank >> getting >> > "hurt". By this inaction, in actual practise muslims are getting >> branded as >> > terrorists for the simple reason, they are not willing to be ready to >> > identify, isolate and give up those who indulge in terror activities. It >> is >> > sad scene indeed. Wheras the hindus do not want violence and bhajrang >> dal >> > gets no sympathy for its acts of violence, muslims by floating NGOs to >> > defend the accused are helping the ter >> > ror accused, sheltoring the accused for plain and simple lots of money >> in >> > the trade of defending the terror. >> > >> > regards. >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: Priya Sen >> > Date: Sunday, September 14, 2008 3:18 pm >> > Subject: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi >> > To: reader-list at sarai.net >> > >> > > Dear All, >> > > >> > > India Gate, September 13th, 6:20 or so in the evening. I had >> > > decided to walk >> > > from Triveni Academy towards Khan Market, determined to buy a >> > > bicycle and >> > > thinking, it's getting dark and maybe I should wait until Monday >> > > and I >> > > shouldn't tell my mother about my biking plans and even though I >> > > plan to >> > > ride early mornings I need to ride it back home now and so on and >> > > so forth. >> > > India Gate was as India Gate is on a weekend evening. Walking >> > > through it >> > > made me think of other times I had been there, a few specific >> > > memories and a >> > > general sense of being in Delhi - of familiarity and ease from >> > > having been >> > > here for as long as I have, and of curiousity, the kind that comes >> > > fromknowing that places are never the same - making mental notes >> > > for no one >> > > really about the Kwality Walls ice cream cart that had a board >> > > saying 'Old >> > > Vendor, India Gate since 1956', and the astrologer who sits in >> the >> > > sameplace always, and people with video cameras filming the gate >> > > who always make >> > > me wonder at what they think when they play it back later. It >> > > took 15 >> > > minutes to cross over to Shah Jahan Road. Me, a couple of young >> > > men, and a >> > > papad seller who the policeman who was also waiting for the lights to >> > > change, generally swore at, and I laughed at how swearing is so >> > > integral to >> > > ones day in Delhi. >> > > >> > > >> > > Later I heard there were a couple of bombs that were defused, one >> > > at Regal >> > > Cinema and one at India Gate. I realized how many stories there >> > > are now. Of >> > > yesterday. Of where we were when.. . Of places we know so well. Of >> > > our lives >> > > up until the moment life changed for so many people in our city. >> > > Of the >> > > things that make our days what they are and will continue to. >> > > Everyone will >> > > have a story because everyone needs to claim something from >> > > moments like >> > > these. And everyone (in this city) must because this moment was >> > > about Delhi. >> > > It's happened before. Here, in other places, it will happen again >> > > and again >> > > and these will be 'the times according to people who live in >> these >> > > times'.And all we can really do is to embrace our lives a little >> > > harder. >> > > >> > > The last time I mourned for this city, a little like this, is when >> > > I watched >> > > Nanglamachi being demolished and people gathering their lives into >> > > bundlesand tempos and going wherever. The ruthlessness was >> > > overwhelming. Not to >> > > make analogies here. Although nothing wrong with analogies and >> > > other things >> > > that make us feel what we feel. No rules for that! Think, feel >> > > whatever - >> > > it's all part of the way we make sense of things on day 2. It was >> like >> > > watching the news right after the blasts happened, when the >> > > reporters were >> > > as bewildered as everyone else. Somehow in their floundering the news >> > > channels were credible for a moment. Before the information >> > > started coming >> > > in and before they started interpreting it, that is. We know what >> > > they do >> > > and do well. Nothing is surprising, just a bit defeating and then >> > > you think >> > > why. Maybe we're defeated by the way we think, are told to think, >> > > don'tthink. Maybe sometimes it has nothing to do with how we >> live. >> > > >> > > >> > > Delhi feels quiet today, but that's also from where I am. Also >> > > it's Sunday. >> > > It will probably not seem very different when I go out later in the >> > > afternoon. But my sister called me this morning and was in tears >> > > and saying >> > > she couldn't sleep because of all this and is feeling restless >> > > because lakhs >> > > of people are going to be out on the streets today for Ganapati >> > > visarjan in >> > > Bombay. For her it's about Bombay as well, the place where she >> has >> > > her life. >> > > When public places become vulnerable it means having to make >> > > decisions about >> > > things one doesn't necessarily think about. It's about >> everything >> > > outside of >> > > us that is essential to how we construct our lives. It's about >> > > everydaydecisions, small things, immediate concerns. About being >> > > able to imagine, >> > > and dream and lose ourselves in places. For a few days we will be >> > > excruciatingly aware of how we move around the city. There will be >> > > remorseand anxiety and conversation. We will share a common grief, >> > > in degrees, and >> > > it will bring us together more intensely. We will count and blame and >> > > speculate. And then we will thankfully, move on. >> > > >> > > >> > > Right now though, I would rather not. Not for today. I just want >> > > to be with >> > > what this city means to me. Aside from its symbols, its creation >> > > of itself, >> > > its skewed power dynamics and unbearable inequalities. A friend >> > > and I are >> > > convinced that "Delhi steps in when we really need something >> to.". >> > > Like the >> > > wisdom of places. Not to get melodramatic! I'm glad I was here >> > > when this >> > > happened and not somewhere else. >> > > >> > > >> > > Regards, >> > > >> > > >> > > Priya >> > > >> > > -- >> > > Priya Sen >> > > Sarai-CSDS >> > > 29, Rajpur Road, Civil Lines >> > > Delhi - 110054 >> > > priya at sarai.net >> > > _________________________________________ >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > > subscribe in the subject header. >> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >> > > list >> > > List archive: >> > >> > >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Partha Dasgupta >> +919811047132 >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in >> the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > +919811047132 > > > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 16 18:37:25 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 06:07:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <719830.18029.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Jeebesh   Do I understand correctly that the specificity you have now given to the "wide area" on "both sides of the border" for which you propose De-militarization is "The State of Jammu and Kashmir" that became a matter of dispute between India and Pakistan in 1948?   What was so difficult about that Jeebesh.   Yes Maps do exist in 'record' about that erstwhile Princely State of Jammu & Kashmir.   Interesting how you discarded it and we will not have to suffer breaking our heads over your "popular suffrage" idea.   Let us now come to the De-militarization.   For the De-militarization, we have  to ensure that India, Pakistan and China withdraw their respective "Militaries" to the borders of "the erstwhile Princely State of Jammu & Kashmir". That you would agree is quite easily said and would be more than difficult to do.   How do we bring that about? What are your proposals for that?     I am quite certain that you would not and would be horrified if you did cite UN Resolution 91 of 30th Mar 1951 to serve as a guideline.   Kshmendra   --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Jeebesh wrote: From: Jeebesh Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions To: "Sarai Reader-list" Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 5:44 PM Is it so difficult as you make it out to be? enclosed is the UN resolution in 1951. Surely many maps and documents about border was submitted. It can be ascertained and worked out. warmly jeebesh http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/kashun91.htm Resolution 91 (1951) Concerning the India-Pakistan question submitted by the Representatives of United Kingdom and United States and adopted by the Security Council on March 30, 1951. (Document No. S/2017/Rev. 1, dated the 30th March, 1951). THE SECURITY COUNCIL, Having received and noted the report of Sir Owen Dixon, the United Nations Representative for India and Pakistan on his mission initiated by the Security Council resolution 80 (1950) of March 14, 1950. Observing that the Governments of India and Pakistan have accepted the provisions of the United Nations Commission for India and Pakistan resolutions of 13 August, 1948, and 5 January, 1949, and have re-affirmed their desire that the future of the State of Jammu and Kashmir shall be decided through the democratic method of a free and impartial plebiscite conducted under the auspices of the United Nations. Observing that on 27 October, 1950, the General Council of the "All Jammu and Kashmir National Conference" adopted a resolution recommending the convening of a Constituent Assembly for the purpose of determining the "future shape and affiliations of the State of Jammu and Kashmir"; observing further from statements of responsible authorities that action is proposed to convene such a Constituent Assembly and that the area from which such a Constituent Assembly would be elected is only a part of the whole territory of Jammu and Kashmir. Reminding the Governments and authorities concerned of the principle embodied in its resolutions 47 (1948) of 21 April 1948, 51(1948) of 3 June, 1948 and 80 (1950) of 14 March, 1950 and the United Nations Commission for India and Pakistan resolutions of 13 August, 1948, and 5 January, 1949, that the final disposition of the State of Jammu and Kashmir will be made in accordance with the will of the people expressed through the democratic method of a free and impartial plebiscite conducted under the auspices of the United Nations. Affirming that the convening of a Constituent Assembly as recommended by the General Council of the "All Jammu and Kashmir National Conference" and any action that Assembly might attempt to take to determine the future shape and affiliation of the entire State or any part thereof would not constitute a disposition of the State in accordance with the above principle. Declaring its belief that it is the duty of the Security Council in carrying out its primary responsibility for the maintenance of international peace and security to aid the parties to reach an amicable solution of the Kashmir dispute and that a prompt settlement of this dispute is of vital importance to the maintenance of international peace and security. Observing from Sir Owen Dixon's report that the main points of difference preventing agreement between the parties were: (a) The procedure for and the extent of demilitarisation of the State preparatory to the holding of a plebiscite, and (b) The degree of control over the exercise of the functions of Government in the State necessary to ensure a free and fair plebiscite. (1) Accepts, in compliance with his request, Sir Owen Dixon's resignation and expresses its gratitude to Sir Owen Dixon's resignation and expresses its gratitude to Sir Owen for the great ability and devotion with which he carried out his mission; (2) Decides to appoint a United Nations Representative for India and Pakistan in succession to Sir Owen Dixon; (3) Instructs the United Nations Representative to proceed to the sub- continent and, after consultation with the Governments of India and Pakistan, to effect the demilitarisation of the State of Jammu and Kashmir on the basis of the United Nations Commission for India and Pakistan resolutions of 13 August, 1948, and, 5 January, 1949; (4) Calls upon the parties to co-operate with the United Nations Representative to the fullest degree in effecting the demilitarisation of the State of Jammu and Kashmir; (5) Instructs the United Nations Representatives to report to the Security Council within three months from the date of his arrival on the sub-continent; if at the time of this report, he has not effected demilitarisation in accordance with paragraph three above, or obtained the agreement of the parties to a plan for effecting such demilitarisation, the United Nations Representative shall report to the Security Council those points of difference between the parties in regard to the interpretation and execution of the agreed resolutions of 13 August, 1948, and 5 January, 1949, which he considers must be resolved to enable such demilitarisation to be carried out; (6) Calls upon the parties, in the event of their discussions with the United Nations Representative failing in his opinion to result in full agreement, to accept arbitration upon all outstanding points of difference reported by the United Nations representative in accordance with paragraph five above. Such arbitration to be carried 'out by an arbitrator, or a panel of arbitrators, to be appointed by the President of the International Court of Justice after consultation with the parties; (7) Decides that the Military Observer Group shall continue to supervise the cease-fire in the State; (8) Requests the Governments of India and Pakistan to ensure that their cement regarding the cease-fire shall continue to be faithfully observed and calls them to take all possible measures to ensure the creation and maintenance of an atmosphere favourable to the promotion of further negotiations and to refrain from any likely to prejudice a just and peaceful settlement; (9) Requests the Secretary-General to provide the United Nations Representative for India and Pakistan with such services and facilities as may be necessary in carrying out the terms of this resolution. The Security Council voted on this Resolution on 30-3-51 with the following result: In favour: Brazil, China, Ecuador, France, Netherlands, Turkey, U.K. and U.S.A. Against: None Abstaining: India, U.S.S.R. and Yugoslavia. On 16-Sep-08, at 4:50 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Jeebesh > > You are overstepping yourself. We are still on Point 1 of your > "possible ways" arising from your "some friends were talking about > different way of thinking about Kashmir." > > "Referendum" was not in the menu of "possible ways" you floated. Let > us get back to your "Demilitarized Zone" > > You say that a "wide area" has to be De-militarized. That is a > meaningless generality. Specify that "wide area" if you can. You > will not be able to do it if you have not thought over the "possible > ways" you have floated. Do some thinking first. > > You suggest a "popular suffrage" to mark the "border". Over what > "area" do you propose that this "popular suffrage" will take place? > In that "area" who will participate? > > Obviously the "suffrage" cannot take place specifically in any > proposed "wide area" on "both sides of the border" which you seek > to De-militarize because the very purpose of the "suffrage" is to > demarcate precisely that "wide area". > > Kshmendra > > > > --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Jeebesh wrote: > > From: Jeebesh > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 4:14 PM > > Another Floater :) > > For a serious referendum to happen a very wide area has to be > demilitarized on both side of the present border. There can be a > popular suffrage to mark the border and hopefully something better > than the present situation may emerge. > > But my floater was not so much about the real-politic of border > making. It was about thinking a side ways to get out of this > "bleeding" politics and use all the various available international > institutions and instruments to arrive at some new arrangements. > > warmly > Jeebesh > > > On 16-Sep-08, at 3:38 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > >> Dear Jeebesh >> >> >> >> The "Demilitarized Zone" is your proposal and not mine. You > should >> be the one to specify its borders. Unless, as is more than likely >> and is apparent, you have done very little thinking over the idea >> you have floated. >> >> >> >> >> >> Kshmendra >> >> --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Jeebesh wrote: >> >> From: Jeebesh >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions >> To: "Sarai Reader-list" >> Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 1:15 PM >> >> On 15-Sep-08, at 11:33 PM, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: >> >>> But I think a BD led UN peacekeeping force in Kashmir would not fly. >> >> Why not? :) It will be South Asia in a complex entangle. >> >> And Kshmendra, borders are always a contested lines. You could >> suggest >> what it could be. >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in >> the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Sep 16 18:57:01 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 18:57:01 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions In-Reply-To: <48CFABC7.40008@sarai.net> References: <956559.62329.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <48CFABC7.40008@sarai.net> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70809160627n4c6f81abka34d47c0164fcfc0@mail.gmail.com> The only solution is "abolishing Article 370". It would help Kashmir & Kashmiris integrate completely into India. On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Vivek Narayanan wrote: > Kshemendra, > > I understand from your comments below that you think that any possible > "post-national" solution to the question of Kashmir is hogwash, dreamy, > silly, unthinkable-- in the same way that the idea of a nation-state > with a democratic polity was completely unthinkable a few hundred years > ago? After all, it is not the specifics of one plan or another that you > are objecting to, it is the very idea itself, correct? > > Fine-- but my question is, what is your solution? Do you think > violently assertive forcible Indian military occupation, objected to by > the majority of the Kashmiri population, with all kinds of ripple > effects including (possibly) the steadily increasing militancy and > radicalisation of the population, the increasing bitterness that reduces > the chances of reconcilliation and peace day by day, and only > increasingly so, should and can continue until kingdom come? Or do you > have any other ideas and possibilities in mind? > > I ask this as an earnest question, out of curiousity, not as a polemical > point. > > Vivek > > Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Dear Jeebesh > > > > You are overstepping yourself. We are still on Point 1 of your "possible > ways" arising from your "some friends were talking about different way of > thinking about Kashmir." > > > > "Referendum" was not in the menu of "possible ways" you floated. Let us > get back to your "Demilitarized Zone" > > > > You say that a "wide area" has to be De-militarized. That is a > meaningless generality. Specify that "wide area" if you can. You will not be > able to do it if you have not thought over the "possible ways" you have > floated. Do some thinking first. > > > > You suggest a "popular suffrage" to mark the "border". Over what "area" > do you propose that this "popular suffrage" will take place? In that "area" > who will participate? > > > > Obviously the "suffrage" cannot take place specifically in any proposed > "wide area" on "both sides of the border" which you seek to De-militarize > because the very purpose of the "suffrage" is to demarcate precisely that > "wide area". > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Jeebesh wrote: > > > > From: Jeebesh > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions > > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > > Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 4:14 PM > > > > Another Floater :) > > > > For a serious referendum to happen a very wide area has to be > > demilitarized on both side of the present border. There can be a > > popular suffrage to mark the border and hopefully something better > > than the present situation may emerge. > > > > But my floater was not so much about the real-politic of border > > making. It was about thinking a side ways to get out of this > > "bleeding" politics and use all the various available international > > institutions and instruments to arrive at some new arrangements. > > > > warmly > > Jeebesh > > > > > > On 16-Sep-08, at 3:38 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > > > >> Dear Jeebesh > >> > >> > >> > >> The "Demilitarized Zone" is your proposal and not mine. You > >> > > should > > > >> be the one to specify its borders. Unless, as is more than likely > >> and is apparent, you have done very little thinking over the idea > >> you have floated. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Kshmendra > >> > >> --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Jeebesh wrote: > >> > >> From: Jeebesh > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions > >> To: "Sarai Reader-list" > >> Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 1:15 PM > >> > >> On 15-Sep-08, at 11:33 PM, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > >> > >> > >>> But I think a BD led UN peacekeeping force in Kashmir would not fly. > >>> > >> Why not? :) It will be South Asia in a complex entangle. > >> > >> And Kshmendra, borders are always a contested lines. You could suggest > >> what it could be. > >> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in > >> the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > >> > >> > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > > the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From partha.dasgupta at eliteinfomachine.com Tue Sep 16 19:08:36 2008 From: partha.dasgupta at eliteinfomachine.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 19:08:36 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70809160627n4c6f81abka34d47c0164fcfc0@mail.gmail.com> References: <956559.62329.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <48CFABC7.40008@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70809160627n4c6f81abka34d47c0164fcfc0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990809160638j37cefbf9xc0cc737765712c31@mail.gmail.com> Dear Pawan, Won't claim to know how Article 370 is affecting J&K since I don't know. However, am aware that Article 370 is also affected for Himachal Pradesh and some other states where it is not causing an issue. Am not disagreeing with what you are saying. Merely trying to understand what you are trying to say. Rgds, Partha .......................... On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 6:57 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > The only solution is "abolishing Article 370". It would help Kashmir & > Kashmiris integrate completely into India. > > On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Vivek Narayanan wrote: > > > Kshemendra, > > > > I understand from your comments below that you think that any possible > > "post-national" solution to the question of Kashmir is hogwash, dreamy, > > silly, unthinkable-- in the same way that the idea of a nation-state > > with a democratic polity was completely unthinkable a few hundred years > > ago? After all, it is not the specifics of one plan or another that you > > are objecting to, it is the very idea itself, correct? > > > > Fine-- but my question is, what is your solution? Do you think > > violently assertive forcible Indian military occupation, objected to by > > the majority of the Kashmiri population, with all kinds of ripple > > effects including (possibly) the steadily increasing militancy and > > radicalisation of the population, the increasing bitterness that reduces > > the chances of reconcilliation and peace day by day, and only > > increasingly so, should and can continue until kingdom come? Or do you > > have any other ideas and possibilities in mind? > > > > I ask this as an earnest question, out of curiousity, not as a polemical > > point. > > > > Vivek > > > > Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > Dear Jeebesh > > > > > > You are overstepping yourself. We are still on Point 1 of your > "possible > > ways" arising from your "some friends were talking about different way of > > thinking about Kashmir." > > > > > > "Referendum" was not in the menu of "possible ways" you floated. Let us > > get back to your "Demilitarized Zone" > > > > > > You say that a "wide area" has to be De-militarized. That is a > > meaningless generality. Specify that "wide area" if you can. You will not > be > > able to do it if you have not thought over the "possible ways" you have > > floated. Do some thinking first. > > > > > > You suggest a "popular suffrage" to mark the "border". Over what "area" > > do you propose that this "popular suffrage" will take place? In that > "area" > > who will participate? > > > > > > Obviously the "suffrage" cannot take place specifically in any proposed > > "wide area" on "both sides of the border" which you seek to > De-militarize > > because the very purpose of the "suffrage" is to demarcate precisely that > > "wide area". > > > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Jeebesh wrote: > > > > > > From: Jeebesh > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions > > > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > > > Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 4:14 PM > > > > > > Another Floater :) > > > > > > For a serious referendum to happen a very wide area has to be > > > demilitarized on both side of the present border. There can be a > > > popular suffrage to mark the border and hopefully something better > > > than the present situation may emerge. > > > > > > But my floater was not so much about the real-politic of border > > > making. It was about thinking a side ways to get out of this > > > "bleeding" politics and use all the various available international > > > institutions and instruments to arrive at some new arrangements. > > > > > > warmly > > > Jeebesh > > > > > > > > > On 16-Sep-08, at 3:38 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > > > > > > >> Dear Jeebesh > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> The "Demilitarized Zone" is your proposal and not mine. You > > >> > > > should > > > > > >> be the one to specify its borders. Unless, as is more than likely > > >> and is apparent, you have done very little thinking over the idea > > >> you have floated. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Kshmendra > > >> > > >> --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Jeebesh wrote: > > >> > > >> From: Jeebesh > > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions > > >> To: "Sarai Reader-list" > > >> Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 1:15 PM > > >> > > >> On 15-Sep-08, at 11:33 PM, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >>> But I think a BD led UN peacekeeping force in Kashmir would not fly. > > >>> > > >> Why not? :) It will be South Asia in a complex entangle. > > >> > > >> And Kshmendra, borders are always a contested lines. You could suggest > > >> what it could be. > > >> > > >> _________________________________________ > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >> subscribe in > > >> the subject header. > > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in > > > the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Sep 16 19:11:00 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 19:11:00 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions In-Reply-To: <32144e990809160638j37cefbf9xc0cc737765712c31@mail.gmail.com> References: <956559.62329.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <48CFABC7.40008@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70809160627n4c6f81abka34d47c0164fcfc0@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990809160638j37cefbf9xc0cc737765712c31@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70809160641y1f546489n1aa28ae34730ac45@mail.gmail.com> The reason may be that people in that region do not want extra favors in the name of religion. Also Govt does give approval from time to time for people from outside to buy land in HP. On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 7:08 PM, Partha Dasgupta < partha.dasgupta at eliteinfomachine.com> wrote: > Dear Pawan, > Won't claim to know how Article 370 is affecting J&K since I don't know. > > However, am aware that Article 370 is also affected for Himachal Pradesh > and some other states where it is not causing an issue. > > Am not disagreeing with what you are saying. Merely trying to understand > what you are trying to say. > > Rgds, Partha > .......................... > > > On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 6:57 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> The only solution is "abolishing Article 370". It would help Kashmir & >> Kashmiris integrate completely into India. >> >> On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Vivek Narayanan wrote: >> >> > Kshemendra, >> > >> > I understand from your comments below that you think that any possible >> > "post-national" solution to the question of Kashmir is hogwash, dreamy, >> > silly, unthinkable-- in the same way that the idea of a nation-state >> > with a democratic polity was completely unthinkable a few hundred years >> > ago? After all, it is not the specifics of one plan or another that you >> > are objecting to, it is the very idea itself, correct? >> > >> > Fine-- but my question is, what is your solution? Do you think >> > violently assertive forcible Indian military occupation, objected to by >> > the majority of the Kashmiri population, with all kinds of ripple >> > effects including (possibly) the steadily increasing militancy and >> > radicalisation of the population, the increasing bitterness that reduces >> > the chances of reconcilliation and peace day by day, and only >> > increasingly so, should and can continue until kingdom come? Or do you >> > have any other ideas and possibilities in mind? >> > >> > I ask this as an earnest question, out of curiousity, not as a polemical >> > point. >> > >> > Vivek >> > >> > Kshmendra Kaul wrote: >> > > Dear Jeebesh >> > > >> > > You are overstepping yourself. We are still on Point 1 of your >> "possible >> > ways" arising from your "some friends were talking about different way >> of >> > thinking about Kashmir." >> > > >> > > "Referendum" was not in the menu of "possible ways" you floated. Let >> us >> > get back to your "Demilitarized Zone" >> > > >> > > You say that a "wide area" has to be De-militarized. That is a >> > meaningless generality. Specify that "wide area" if you can. You will >> not be >> > able to do it if you have not thought over the "possible ways" you have >> > floated. Do some thinking first. >> > > >> > > You suggest a "popular suffrage" to mark the "border". Over what >> "area" >> > do you propose that this "popular suffrage" will take place? In that >> "area" >> > who will participate? >> > > >> > > Obviously the "suffrage" cannot take place specifically in any >> proposed >> > "wide area" on "both sides of the border" which you seek to >> De-militarize >> > because the very purpose of the "suffrage" is to demarcate precisely >> that >> > "wide area". >> > > >> > > Kshmendra >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Jeebesh wrote: >> > > >> > > From: Jeebesh >> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions >> > > To: "Sarai Reader-list" >> > > Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 4:14 PM >> > > >> > > Another Floater :) >> > > >> > > For a serious referendum to happen a very wide area has to be >> > > demilitarized on both side of the present border. There can be a >> > > popular suffrage to mark the border and hopefully something better >> > > than the present situation may emerge. >> > > >> > > But my floater was not so much about the real-politic of border >> > > making. It was about thinking a side ways to get out of this >> > > "bleeding" politics and use all the various available international >> > > institutions and instruments to arrive at some new arrangements. >> > > >> > > warmly >> > > Jeebesh >> > > >> > > >> > > On 16-Sep-08, at 3:38 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: >> > > >> > > >> > >> Dear Jeebesh >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> The "Demilitarized Zone" is your proposal and not mine. You >> > >> >> > > should >> > > >> > >> be the one to specify its borders. Unless, as is more than likely >> > >> and is apparent, you have done very little thinking over the idea >> > >> you have floated. >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> Kshmendra >> > >> >> > >> --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Jeebesh wrote: >> > >> >> > >> From: Jeebesh >> > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions >> > >> To: "Sarai Reader-list" >> > >> Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 1:15 PM >> > >> >> > >> On 15-Sep-08, at 11:33 PM, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: >> > >> >> > >> >> > >>> But I think a BD led UN peacekeeping force in Kashmir would not fly. >> > >>> >> > >> Why not? :) It will be South Asia in a complex entangle. >> > >> >> > >> And Kshmendra, borders are always a contested lines. You could >> suggest >> > >> what it could be. >> > >> >> > >> _________________________________________ >> > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > >> Critiques & Collaborations >> > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > >> subscribe in >> > >> the subject header. >> > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> >> > >> >> > > >> > > _________________________________________ >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in >> > > the subject header. >> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > _________________________________________ >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > +919811047132 > From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 16 19:13:33 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 06:43:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi In-Reply-To: <32144e990809160555l1ddc587dm6b0af067ccaa323d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <724206.64798.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Partha   Not much difference in how you and I see it as far as this topic is concerned. You have only added worthwhile elements to my discussions with my own self.   You have been quite clear in stating how you view things and also in stating what you are uncertain about. So, no apologies needed.    When it comes to conviction of certainities, I am attitudinally an agnostic. I love and feed off intelligent vagueness. It provides the spark, the catalyst and the drive for the "search".  In that is the hope that one will understand a bit more, discover a bit more.   Kshmendra   --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: From: Partha Dasgupta Subject: Re: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 6:25 PM Dear Kshmendra, The questions you have asked about 'what is terror', etc is something I would not like to elaborate on as each has his/her own interpretation. Bhagat Singh is a freedom fighter as far as we Indians are concerned, but for the govt of the day he was a terrorist. There is no 'standard' definition of what a terrorist is and each person / entity would translate the word in their own way. As for defining LTTE as Hindu terrorists - guess that question is wide open depending upon what we use as the pointer. If the primary factor is what religion / group do they belong to, then we'd have a ready answer. If, however, we look beyond and try to identify the aim / purpose behind the conflict, there'd be another answer all together - some of them not very clear. Even if a 'terrorist' follows a ideology/religion/place/societal group - that's a personal root that s/he has. It does not follow that all people of the ideology/religion/place/societal group follow the same radical conclusion. Guess we could go on and on - fact is that we'll all equate the phrase 'terrorist' from our personal point of view and experiences. Apologies for sounding vague, but you started a line of thought that I'd never really looked at before. Rgds, Partha ................................. On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 5:07 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: Dear Partha   My questioning of the LTTE being called Hindu was to help me in my discussions with my own self.   I am still struggling in my mind over 'what is terror'; 'who is a terrorist'; 'when should an organisation (or a system) be called a terrorist one' and 'when should an act of terror, or a terrorist, or a terrorist organisation be identified with an ideology/religion/place/societal group'.   There is total agreement with your words:   """""" The terrorist may belong to any religion or caste or place or whatever - however, lumping all the people of that religion or caste or place as terrorists because one or some people from that group performed 'acts of terrorism' is not justifiable."""""""   Kshmendra       --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: From: Partha Dasgupta Subject: Re: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 9:37 AM Dear Kshmendra, Studied in Baroda / Vadodra and saw communal rights flare up on the weirdest of reasons. Have seen a close friend who wouldn't kill cockroaches try to burn a bus in the frenzy of a mob. As for defining the LTTE as Hindu - my point is different, and is something I have mentioned earlier. The terrorist may belong to any religion or caste or place or whatever - however, lumping all the people of that religion or caste or place as terrorists because one or some people from that group performed 'acts of terrorism' is not justifiable. In short, am against the mass generalization wherein we identify an entire group a 'terrorists'. To put it the other way around, am a Hindu, but do not identify with the demolition of the Babri Masjid or the attacks on Christians that is happening. Just a personal belief, but if any person is converting to another faith for benefits accrued then obviously his faith wasn't strong in the first place & s/he won't be much of a loss. Rgds, Partha ....................................... On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 7:17 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: Dear Partha   Do not mean to butt in.   Just wondering whether any 'acts of terrorrising' by the LTTE can be designated as 'acts of terrorising' by Hindus.   Would it not be more apt to link 'acts of terror' with a religious identity when such 'acts of terror' are carried out in the name a particular religion or are solely based on the religious identity?   There are many instances of 'acts of terror by Hindus' which can be so designated because they are carried out in the name of Hinduism or are solely based upon and connected to the Hindu identity of the perpetrators.   Just wondering.   Kshmendra --- On Sun, 9/14/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: From: Partha Dasgupta Subject: Re: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net Cc: reader-list at sarai.net Date: Sunday, September 14, 2008, 4:28 PM Dear Radhika Rajen, In may mails on this list you have pointed out how the elected representative is only a beneficiary divided caste votes and not a true representative. Now you jump to another point altogether and talk about the UPA chairperson and the eloctorate. Please  stick to a viewpoint as it is hard to trace what your viewpoint is. If you have changed your viewpoint, then please denote so. In any case, saw the killings (directly and first hand in Delhi) during the Sikh militancy days and have seen communal riots in Baroda, Gujarat; and all I can say is that when herd mentality takes over the common sense is lost. Also, from Babri Masjid to the incapable idiots who got blown up some time back, we have seen Hindu militancy. Either we can agree that militancy in all forms is wrong or we can quibble about shades of right or wrong. So, where do you stand: a)   Militancy & armed conflict is wrong OR b)   Hindu's are allowed to have a conflict as they have been repressed as a majority      and that cases like Godhra, Sikh killings in Delhi and Babri Masjid are justified. Rgds, Partha PS: I do note that when you talk of terror, you never refer to the LTTE (Hindu & Indian) which is considered as one of the most dangerous terrorist organisations and has killed a Prime Minister of India (and is not Muslim or Christian) or the killing of Indira Gandi - or is it that since they were not BJP/RSS that you do not consider them a loss? ..................................................... On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 4:05 PM, wrote: > Without getting in to blame games, the need of the moment is the > chairperson of UPA who is now proxy governor of the nation should have good > introspection of the events and see if her Home Minister who was once > speaker, but discarded by the electorate, got into rajya sabha by nomination >  and then is the Home minister, is he capable of any action. A dummy like > Prime minister, again diitto to the governance who has no incentive to > perform as Prime minister being discard beaucrat, has been  of yester years, > can not make up his mind to take tough action for fear of votebank getting > "hurt". By this inaction, in actual practise muslims are getting branded as > terrorists for the simple reason, they are not willing to be ready to > identify, isolate and give up those who indulge in terror activities. It is > sad scene indeed. Wheras the hindus do not want violence and bhajrang dal > gets no sympathy for its acts of violence, muslims by floating NGOs to > defend the accused are helping the ter > ror accused, sheltoring the accused for plain and simple lots of money in > the trade of defending the terror. > > regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Priya Sen > Date: Sunday, September 14, 2008 3:18 pm > Subject: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Dear All, > > > > India Gate, September 13th, 6:20 or so in the evening. I had > > decided to walk > > from Triveni Academy towards Khan Market, determined to buy a > > bicycle and > > thinking, it's getting dark and maybe I should wait until Monday > > and I > > shouldn't tell my mother about my biking plans and even though I > > plan to > > ride early mornings I need to ride it back home now and so on and > > so forth. > > India Gate was as India Gate is on a weekend evening. Walking > > through it > > made me think of other times I had been there, a few specific > > memories and a > > general sense of being in Delhi - of familiarity and ease from > > having been > > here for as long as I have, and of curiousity, the kind that comes > > fromknowing that places are never the same - making mental notes > > for no one > > really about the Kwality Walls ice cream cart that had a board > > saying 'Old > > Vendor, India Gate since 1956', and the astrologer who sits in the > > sameplace always, and people with video cameras filming the gate > > who always make > > me wonder at what they think  when they play it back later. It > > took 15 > > minutes to cross over to Shah Jahan Road. Me, a couple of young > > men, and a > > papad seller who the policeman who was also waiting for the lights to > > change, generally swore at, and I laughed at how swearing is so > > integral to > > ones day in Delhi. > > > > > > Later I heard there were a couple of bombs that were defused, one > > at Regal > > Cinema and one at India Gate. I realized how many stories there > > are now. Of > > yesterday. Of where we were when.. . Of places we know so well. Of > > our lives > > up until the moment life changed for so many people in our city. > > Of the > > things that make our days what they are and will continue to. > > Everyone will > > have a story because everyone needs to claim something from > > moments like > > these. And everyone (in this city) must because this moment was > > about Delhi. > > It's happened before. Here, in other places, it will happen again > > and again > > and these will be 'the times according to people who live in these > > times'.And all we can really do is to embrace our lives a little > > harder. > > > > The last time I mourned for this city, a little like this, is when > > I watched > > Nanglamachi being demolished and people gathering their lives into > > bundlesand tempos and going wherever. The ruthlessness was > > overwhelming. Not to > > make analogies here. Although nothing wrong with analogies and > > other things > > that make us feel what we feel. No rules for that! Think, feel > > whatever - > > it's all part of the way we make sense of things on day 2. It was like > > watching the news right after the blasts happened, when the > > reporters were > > as bewildered as everyone else. Somehow in their floundering the news > > channels were credible for a moment. Before the information > > started coming > > in and before they started interpreting it, that is. We know what > > they do > > and do well. Nothing is surprising, just a bit defeating and then > > you think > > why. Maybe we're defeated by the way we think, are told to think, > > don'tthink. Maybe sometimes it has nothing to do with how we live. > > > > > > Delhi feels quiet today, but that's also from where I am. Also > > it's Sunday. > > It will probably not seem very different when I go out later in the > > afternoon. But my sister called me this morning and was in tears > > and saying > > she couldn't sleep because of all this and is feeling restless > > because lakhs > > of people are going to be out on the streets today for Ganapati > > visarjan in > > Bombay. For her it's about Bombay as well, the place where she has > > her life. > > When public places become vulnerable it means having to make > > decisions about > > things one doesn't necessarily think about. It's about everything > > outside of > > us that is essential to how we construct our lives. It's about > > everydaydecisions, small things, immediate concerns. About being > > able to imagine, > > and dream and lose ourselves in places. For a few days we will be > > excruciatingly aware of how we move around the city. There will be > > remorseand anxiety and conversation. We will share a common grief, > > in degrees, and > > it will bring us together more intensely. We will count and blame and > > speculate. And then we will thankfully, move on. > > > > > > Right now though, I would rather not. Not for today. I just want > > to be with > > what this city means to me. Aside from its symbols, its creation > > of itself, > > its skewed power dynamics and unbearable inequalities. A friend > > and I are > > convinced that "Delhi steps in when we really need something to.". > > Like the > > wisdom of places. Not to get melodramatic! I'm glad I was here > > when this > > happened and not somewhere else. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Priya > > > > -- > > Priya Sen > > Sarai-CSDS > > 29, Rajpur Road, Civil Lines > > Delhi - 110054 > > priya at sarai.net > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From the.solipsist at gmail.com Tue Sep 16 19:17:32 2008 From: the.solipsist at gmail.com (Pranesh Prakash) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 19:17:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Wired-ness and Improvisation Message-ID: <4785f1e20809160647u512137aem1abe07970a4cc448@mail.gmail.com> Bangkok wires: http://www.polarinertia.com/aug07/bangkok01.htm Improvisation in Thailand: http://www.kk.org/streetuse/archives/2008/07/improvisation_in_thailand.php via: Neatorama (http://www.neatorama.com/2008/09/14/bangkok-wires-by-photographer-thomas-kalak/) >From the first website: Bangkok, totally wired. Cable clutter everywhere. Like electric monsters they hang over the junction. Sometimes like art-installations close to the sidewalk. Easy to reach out and touch for kids. But this special picture [visit the Polar Inertia link to see the photograph] is as vanishing as the shown technology at the beginning of the new millennium. It will disapear soon. As so many things in Bangkok, wires are another symbol for this chaotic city. It seems to be unsystematic and dysfunctional. But as the traffic, always close to the collapse, it works, somehow. In everyday Bangkok, western ideas of order and system have no place at all. What happens here is instead very much dominated by ordinary people and a philosophy of relaxed co-existence which permits seemingly irreconcilable contradictions. Everywhere, one finds a good-natured willingness to take life as it is, with all of its tensions and scurrilous variety, and enjoy it as well! Thomas Kalak From partha.dasgupta at eliteinfomachine.com Tue Sep 16 19:18:12 2008 From: partha.dasgupta at eliteinfomachine.com (Partha Dasgupta) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 19:18:12 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70809160641y1f546489n1aa28ae34730ac45@mail.gmail.com> References: <956559.62329.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <48CFABC7.40008@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70809160627n4c6f81abka34d47c0164fcfc0@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990809160638j37cefbf9xc0cc737765712c31@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70809160641y1f546489n1aa28ae34730ac45@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32144e990809160648r74cd1882xa8470fb344c0a6af@mail.gmail.com> Dear Pawan, Even if the Govt gives intermittent approval to people from outside to buy land in J&K, don't think anyone would buy it in the present situation. Certainly not for commercial development. Also, what's 'extra favors in the name of religion' got to do with Article 370 ? Rgds, Partha ........................... On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 7:11 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > The reason may be that people in that region do not want extra favors in > the name of religion. > Also Govt does give approval from time to time for people from outside to > buy land in HP. > > > > On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 7:08 PM, Partha Dasgupta < > partha.dasgupta at eliteinfomachine.com> wrote: > >> Dear Pawan, >> Won't claim to know how Article 370 is affecting J&K since I don't know. >> >> However, am aware that Article 370 is also affected for Himachal Pradesh >> and some other states where it is not causing an issue. >> >> Am not disagreeing with what you are saying. Merely trying to understand >> what you are trying to say. >> >> Rgds, Partha >> .......................... >> >> >> On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 6:57 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: >> >>> The only solution is "abolishing Article 370". It would help Kashmir & >>> Kashmiris integrate completely into India. >>> >>> On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Vivek Narayanan >>> wrote: >>> >>> > Kshemendra, >>> > >>> > I understand from your comments below that you think that any possible >>> > "post-national" solution to the question of Kashmir is hogwash, dreamy, >>> > silly, unthinkable-- in the same way that the idea of a nation-state >>> > with a democratic polity was completely unthinkable a few hundred years >>> > ago? After all, it is not the specifics of one plan or another that >>> you >>> > are objecting to, it is the very idea itself, correct? >>> > >>> > Fine-- but my question is, what is your solution? Do you think >>> > violently assertive forcible Indian military occupation, objected to by >>> > the majority of the Kashmiri population, with all kinds of ripple >>> > effects including (possibly) the steadily increasing militancy and >>> > radicalisation of the population, the increasing bitterness that >>> reduces >>> > the chances of reconcilliation and peace day by day, and only >>> > increasingly so, should and can continue until kingdom come? Or do you >>> > have any other ideas and possibilities in mind? >>> > >>> > I ask this as an earnest question, out of curiousity, not as a >>> polemical >>> > point. >>> > >>> > Vivek >>> > >>> > Kshmendra Kaul wrote: >>> > > Dear Jeebesh >>> > > >>> > > You are overstepping yourself. We are still on Point 1 of your >>> "possible >>> > ways" arising from your "some friends were talking about different way >>> of >>> > thinking about Kashmir." >>> > > >>> > > "Referendum" was not in the menu of "possible ways" you floated. Let >>> us >>> > get back to your "Demilitarized Zone" >>> > > >>> > > You say that a "wide area" has to be De-militarized. That is a >>> > meaningless generality. Specify that "wide area" if you can. You will >>> not be >>> > able to do it if you have not thought over the "possible ways" you have >>> > floated. Do some thinking first. >>> > > >>> > > You suggest a "popular suffrage" to mark the "border". Over what >>> "area" >>> > do you propose that this "popular suffrage" will take place? In that >>> "area" >>> > who will participate? >>> > > >>> > > Obviously the "suffrage" cannot take place specifically in any >>> proposed >>> > "wide area" on "both sides of the border" which you seek to >>> De-militarize >>> > because the very purpose of the "suffrage" is to demarcate precisely >>> that >>> > "wide area". >>> > > >>> > > Kshmendra >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Jeebesh wrote: >>> > > >>> > > From: Jeebesh >>> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions >>> > > To: "Sarai Reader-list" >>> > > Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 4:14 PM >>> > > >>> > > Another Floater :) >>> > > >>> > > For a serious referendum to happen a very wide area has to be >>> > > demilitarized on both side of the present border. There can be a >>> > > popular suffrage to mark the border and hopefully something better >>> > > than the present situation may emerge. >>> > > >>> > > But my floater was not so much about the real-politic of border >>> > > making. It was about thinking a side ways to get out of this >>> > > "bleeding" politics and use all the various available international >>> > > institutions and instruments to arrive at some new arrangements. >>> > > >>> > > warmly >>> > > Jeebesh >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > On 16-Sep-08, at 3:38 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >> Dear Jeebesh >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> The "Demilitarized Zone" is your proposal and not mine. You >>> > >> >>> > > should >>> > > >>> > >> be the one to specify its borders. Unless, as is more than likely >>> > >> and is apparent, you have done very little thinking over the idea >>> > >> you have floated. >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> Kshmendra >>> > >> >>> > >> --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Jeebesh wrote: >>> > >> >>> > >> From: Jeebesh >>> > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions >>> > >> To: "Sarai Reader-list" >>> > >> Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 1:15 PM >>> > >> >>> > >> On 15-Sep-08, at 11:33 PM, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >>> But I think a BD led UN peacekeeping force in Kashmir would not >>> fly. >>> > >>> >>> > >> Why not? :) It will be South Asia in a complex entangle. >>> > >> >>> > >> And Kshmendra, borders are always a contested lines. You could >>> suggest >>> > >> what it could be. >>> > >> >>> > >> _________________________________________ >>> > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> > >> Critiques & Collaborations >>> > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> > >> subscribe in >>> > >> the subject header. >>> > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > > >>> > > _________________________________________ >>> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> > > Critiques & Collaborations >>> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> > subscribe in >>> > > the subject header. >>> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > _________________________________________ >>> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> > > Critiques & Collaborations >>> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> > >>> > _________________________________________ >>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Partha Dasgupta >> +919811047132 >> > > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Tue Sep 16 19:20:18 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 18:50:18 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions In-Reply-To: <32144e990809160638j37cefbf9xc0cc737765712c31@mail.gmail.com> References: <956559.62329.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <48CFABC7.40008@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70809160627n4c6f81abka34d47c0164fcfc0@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990809160638j37cefbf9xc0cc737765712c31@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690809160650j67873f19ldd8b04a6014068ea@mail.gmail.com> * Living under the shadow of Article 370 **Sunil Fotedar, Subodh Atal and Lalit Koul* Link - http://www.kashmirherald.com/featuredarticle/article370.html There have been numerous suggestions that the Indian government needs to grant 'special powers' to the state of Jammu and Kashmir to defuse the 'nuclear flashpoint'. What 'special powers' are left to be doled out to the state government? It already has sufficient autonomy under Article 370 to run roughshod over minority rights and keep them segregated from the rest of India five decades after Partition. The RSS has recently demanded abrogation of Article 370. So what is this Article 370? A detailed analysis is necessary as a new debate heats up about the status of the state within the Indian nation. *In the Beginning: Article 370 Lays the Roots* Article 370 is a special clause in Indian Constitution, a prize that was extracted out of India in 1950 by Sheikh Mohammed Abdullah for throwing his lot with India, after lengthy negotiations with Indian leaders. Article 370 made Jammu and Kashmir a country within a country, with its own flag, emblem, constitution and Sadr-i-Riyasat (Prime Minister). The architect of the Indian Constitution, Dr. Ambedkar, opposed granting Article 370 but it was on India's first Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru's insistence and personal guarantee that it was granted to the state. This Article specified that except for Defence, Foreign Affairs and Communications, the Indian Parliament needed the State Government's concurrence for applying such laws to Jammu and Kashmir as did not fall under the heads of Defence, Foreign Affairs and Communications. Parliamentary laws pertaining to these three subjects required consultation with the J&K State Government. Over the years, this procedure was followed to bring the state under the purview of Article 356, the Supreme Court, the Election Commission, the Comptroller and Auditor General, thus providing some level of order in the state. However, much else was left to the whim of the state rulers. Thus the state's residents lived under a separate set of laws, including those related to citizenship, ownership of property, and fundamental rights, as compared to other Indians. An interim arrangement, the Constituent Assembly, had been convened to run the state while considering the ratification of the Instrument of Accession and framing the constitution. That Article 370 was a temporary arrangement is evident from its wording, which allows its abrogation by the President of India in consultation with the now long-defunct Constituent Assembly. The Constituent Assembly was dissolved in 1957 prior to the first State Assembly elections and after it ratified the state's accession to India and framed the state's constitution adopted on 17th November and coming into full force from 26th January 1957. The trouble began even before as Article 370 was promulgated, and the omens that were seen in 1951 presaged the damage half a century of Article 370 would do. The Kashmiri Muslim-dominated National Conference opposed the extension of India's citizenship laws, fundamental rights and related legal rights to the state. They also began to question the finality of the accession of the state to India. Hindus in Jammu rose up in protest in a movement known as the Praja Parishad agitation. The Praja Parishad movement strongly opposed any moves towards independence of the state. Its slogan was 'Ek Vidhan, Ek Nishan, Ek Pradhan' (One Constitution, One flag, and One President). The National Conference led by Sheikh Abdullah used the leeway granted to it by India to grab all the seats of the Constituent Assembly, squeezing out representatives of Jammu and Ladakh, and those of Kashmiri Hindus and Sikhs. The Praja Parishad candidates in Jammu found their election papers rejected before the election, and appealed to Indian leaders including Nehru to set up an enquiry into the election conduct and to prevent the state administration from openly aiding the National Conference candidates. The Indian leadership, perhaps mindful of the unstable situation in the state, sided with the National Conference. The already narrow base of the National Conference among minorities was further eroded due to the manner in which the elections were conducted to the Constituent Assembly. The conditions set the stage for the intensification of the Praja Parishad agitation and the open communalization of the state. In the end the misgivings of non-Muslims and residents of Jammu and Ladakh were ignored. Thus Article 370 and other crucial constitutional issues were effectively negotiated ignoring the wishes of nearly half of the state's population which was non-Muslim, or from outside the valley. Article 370 was designed to maintain the separate character of valley Muslims at the expense of all other groups in the state, and at the expense of the stability and future of the subcontinent. *The Fruits of Article 370: Political and Socio-Economic Discrimination against Hindus* Religious oppression of Kashmiri Hindus (also known as Kashmiri Pandits and embodying a distinct character, culture and historic tradition), and forced conversions, had already dwindled the number of these original inhabitants of Kashmir valley to about 800,000 by 1947. After 1947, while the rest of India enjoyed the fruits of secular independence and religious equality, Kashmir valley was gradually and steadily converted into a hotbed of Islamic fundamentalism, a mini-Afghanistan. The Kashmiri Hindus, the largest minority in the valley and its original heirs, were clearly an impediment to this transformation of the valley. Every possible mean was employed by the outwardly secular National Conference to exclude Hindus from society, politics and the economy, and the primary tool used was Article 370. With constitutional protections of India for minorities not applicable or constrained due to Article 370, Hindus were eliminated from the economic organization of the State, its government and administration, and relegated to a condition of abject servitude within a year after the exit of Maharajah Hari Singh. After 1957, when the Constituent Assembly gave way to the state legislative assembly, the National Conference government perpetually gerrymandered electoral districting to ensure a heavy weightage in favor of Kashmir versus Jammu and Ladakh. Within Kashmir, pockets of Hindu majority were combined with Muslim majority districts so that no Kashmiri Hindu was ever elected to the assembly. The political hegemony quickly filtered down to the administrative level. The rapid process of summary removal of the Hindus from the State services was initiated on the pretext of communal imbalances in the services. The admissions of Kashmiri Hindus to various academic institutions, were restricted to a negligible 2-8 percent of the total admissions made every year. In effect, an unprecedented and unfair affirmative action program was instituted for the majority in the state. The total domination of Kashmiri Muslims extended to the media, with over 95% of the outlets controlled by them and used heavily for propagation of fundamentalism and secessionism. Again, due to the umbrella of Article 370, the Kashmiri Muslims could dominate all spheres of life in the state with impunity. The minorities had no recourse to many fundamental rights to equality and due process available in the rest of India. In fact in its latest demand of autonomy passed in a resolution by the state assembly in 2000, the state's Muslim leaders have again asked for a different set of fundamental rights in what may be a renewed attempt to perpetuate discrimination and oppression of the state's minorities. *The Fruits of Article 370: The State Subject Law* Taking full advantage of Article 370, the National Conference government, first led by Sheikh Abdullah, then by others, perpetuated the archaic, exclusionary and highly discriminatory rule known as the State Subject law. In 1890, the then Maharajah had instituted a law disallowing outsiders from owning land and property in the state. This law was further strengthened in 1927. The law made sense in those days, since it was meant to prevent the colonial British from establishing their presence in the state. In 1947 and later, however, this rule has been used with surgical precision by the National Conference governments to gradually and decisively eradicate the Kashmiri Hindu population. Many of this community had already moved out in the decades and centuries before 1947, and now with full religious and political freedom and opportunities in the rest of India contrasting with severe oppression in the valley, many Kashmiri Hindus, especially young men, started moving out of the valley. The State Subject law has a unique feature to it that acted as a double pincer in squeezing out a majority of the Pandit population. Women who marry men (including those who are Kashmiri Hindus) domiciled outside the state, automatically lose their right as a 'State Subject'. Even if their children are born in the state, those children have no rights and are destined to live elsewhere in India. As a result, generation after generation of Kashmiri Hindus started losing rights to their ancestral homeland. And no more than 400,000 of them were left in 1989 in the valley out of the over 800,000 at Partition, while the Kashmiri Muslim population grew steadily. Compounding the injustice was the denial of rights to the hundreds of thousands of Hindus who fled from areas in Pakistan soon during the 1947 Partition and settled in the state. Not only the minorities of the state, but the entire state's economic progress has been adversely affected by this uniquely retrogressive law. The same law that has dispossessed hundreds of thousands of Kashmiri Hindus of their ancestral homeland has also acted as a hindrance to the entry of industry and technological advancement into the state from the rest of India. It wasn't the militancy alone, but the same State Subject law applicable under Article 370, that prevented the revival of the Indian economy to filter into the state. And without the influence of the rest of India, the fundamentalist malaise has grown unabated in parallel with the situation in Pakistan and Afghanistan. *The Fruits of Article 370: The `Kashmiriyat' Red Herring* With the help of some intellectuals within the community, Kashmiri Muslims invented the word `Kashmiriyat', which was ostensibly an attempt to preserve unique Kashmiri identity and focus on common culture of the Hindus and Muslims over centuries of co-existence, and mutual respect for each other's traditions and religious practices. In reality `Kashmiriyat' was coined successfully to fool the rest of the world, especially the media. The rest of India slumbered on for four centuries up to 1947, content in its belief that the state represented true religious coexistence. In the meanwhile, the communalists worked behind the curtain of Kashmiriyat to systematically eradicate minority rights and establish a Talibanic system long before Afghanistan was turned into a medieval wasteland by the group of that name. If Kashmiriyat had existed, it would certainly have prevented the National Conference from eroding the rights of Hindus in the state. The unsuspecting media as well as so-called foreign 'experts' devour the term 'Kashmiriyat' today, as they did in the past, without asking questions. It has even been used as the basis for offering some untenable and dangerous solutions such as those offered by the Kashmir Study Group. *Is Abrogation of Article 370 Possible?* If Article 370 has created so much havoc, the question is how can it be removed. While some have tied the existence of Article 370 to the state's accession to India, Kashmir experts like ex-Governor Jagmohan and state constitutional expert M. K. Teng have opined that the article can be abrogated without any constitutional hurdles. The article stipulated that India's President needed to consult with the state's Constituent Assembly before abrogating it. However, this by itself points to the Article's temporary nature. As noted above, the Constituent Assembly was a temporary arrangement with its main task being the ratification of the Instrument of Accession. It was disbanded in 1957, thus invalidating this clause. The President can use Article 368 to remove the defunct provision of taking the Constituent Assembly's consent. After this deletion is carried out, the President can then abrogate the Article forthwith. *The Politics of Article 370 *If abrogation of Article 370 is a readily available solution, why hasn't any Indian government taken the step to alleviate the oppression of Kashmiri minorities and help the state integrate with India? The answer is that it's the politics, stupid. The Congress governments, heavily dependent on a solid block of Indian Muslim vote, never even considered the step that might have alienated any of them. The BJP, in its 1998 election plank, declared that abrogation of Article 370 would be one of its goals. However, using the excuse of coalition politics, it immediately abandoned this item from its agenda, thus betraying the Kashmiri Hindu refugees who had supported it en masse due to this promise. Now the current state chief minister Farooq Abdullah is demanding even more autonomy, cloaking it in the guise of 'honor' for Kashmiris. One needs to ask Dr. Abdullah what more honor do they need, and indeed why do they need anything beyond the current level of autonomy which has been enough to deprive Hindus, Sikhs, Jammu Dogras and Ladakhis of their rights, as well as to create a mini-Pakistan within India? But in a repeat of history, and to its own detriment, the Indian government is again succumbing to such thinly disguised secessionist demands. * Beyond Article 370* Abrogation of Article 370 would be a first step in solving the Kashmir imbroglio, but by no means enough. The damage done is too deep and wide that this step would have little effect on the restoration of minority rights and the defeat of fundamentalist elements in the state. The control of Kashmiri Muslims over society, religion, politics, administration and the economy is so complete that returning valley minorities, and people from Jammu and Ladakh would find it impossible to gain back any lost ground. In order to permanently and justly settle the issue of Kashmir, abrogation of Article 370 should be immediately followed by re-organization of the state into four distinct entities, Jammu, Ladakh, Panun Kashmir and Kashmir. Panun Kashmir, as noted in the Homeland Resolution of 1991, would comprise regions of the valley to the east and north of Jhelum River, and would allow the return of all 700,000 Kashmiri Pandits to their rightful homeland. The territory would also be converted into an economic zone attracting the best of Indian industrial talent, especially high technology. Kashmiri language, culture and traditions would be preserved within this territory, which would integrate with the rest of secular India at a much faster pace than the remaining portion of the valley. It would be the only effective means for India to regain the foothold it lost decades ago in the valley. On 9/16/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > Dear Pawan, > Won't claim to know how Article 370 is affecting J&K since I don't know. > > However, am aware that Article 370 is also affected for Himachal Pradesh > and > some other states where it is not causing an issue. > > Am not disagreeing with what you are saying. Merely trying to understand > what you are trying to say. > > Rgds, Partha > .......................... > > On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 6:57 PM, Pawan Durani >wrote: > > > > The only solution is "abolishing Article 370". It would help Kashmir & > > Kashmiris integrate completely into India. > > > > On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Vivek Narayanan > wrote: > > > > > Kshemendra, > > > > > > I understand from your comments below that you think that any possible > > > "post-national" solution to the question of Kashmir is hogwash, dreamy, > > > silly, unthinkable-- in the same way that the idea of a nation-state > > > with a democratic polity was completely unthinkable a few hundred years > > > ago? After all, it is not the specifics of one plan or another that > you > > > are objecting to, it is the very idea itself, correct? > > > > > > Fine-- but my question is, what is your solution? Do you think > > > violently assertive forcible Indian military occupation, objected to by > > > the majority of the Kashmiri population, with all kinds of ripple > > > effects including (possibly) the steadily increasing militancy and > > > radicalisation of the population, the increasing bitterness that > reduces > > > the chances of reconcilliation and peace day by day, and only > > > increasingly so, should and can continue until kingdom come? Or do you > > > have any other ideas and possibilities in mind? > > > > > > I ask this as an earnest question, out of curiousity, not as a > polemical > > > point. > > > > > > Vivek > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > > Dear Jeebesh > > > > > > > > You are overstepping yourself. We are still on Point 1 of your > > "possible > > > ways" arising from your "some friends were talking about different way > of > > > thinking about Kashmir." > > > > > > > > "Referendum" was not in the menu of "possible ways" you floated. Let > us > > > get back to your "Demilitarized Zone" > > > > > > > > You say that a "wide area" has to be De-militarized. That is a > > > meaningless generality. Specify that "wide area" if you can. You will > not > > be > > > able to do it if you have not thought over the "possible ways" you have > > > floated. Do some thinking first. > > > > > > > > You suggest a "popular suffrage" to mark the "border". Over what > "area" > > > do you propose that this "popular suffrage" will take place? In that > > "area" > > > who will participate? > > > > > > > > Obviously the "suffrage" cannot take place specifically in any > proposed > > > "wide area" on "both sides of the border" which you seek to > > De-militarize > > > because the very purpose of the "suffrage" is to demarcate precisely > that > > > "wide area". > > > > > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Jeebesh wrote: > > > > > > > > From: Jeebesh > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions > > > > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > > > > Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 4:14 PM > > > > > > > > Another Floater :) > > > > > > > > For a serious referendum to happen a very wide area has to be > > > > demilitarized on both side of the present border. There can be a > > > > popular suffrage to mark the border and hopefully something better > > > > than the present situation may emerge. > > > > > > > > But my floater was not so much about the real-politic of border > > > > making. It was about thinking a side ways to get out of this > > > > "bleeding" politics and use all the various available international > > > > institutions and instruments to arrive at some new arrangements. > > > > > > > > warmly > > > > Jeebesh > > > > > > > > > > > > On 16-Sep-08, at 3:38 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> Dear Jeebesh > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> The "Demilitarized Zone" is your proposal and not mine. You > > > >> > > > > should > > > > > > > >> be the one to specify its borders. Unless, as is more than likely > > > >> and is apparent, you have done very little thinking over the idea > > > >> you have floated. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Kshmendra > > > >> > > > >> --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Jeebesh wrote: > > > >> > > > >> From: Jeebesh > > > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions > > > >> To: "Sarai Reader-list" > > > >> Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 1:15 PM > > > >> > > > >> On 15-Sep-08, at 11:33 PM, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>> But I think a BD led UN peacekeeping force in Kashmir would not > fly. > > > >>> > > > >> Why not? :) It will be South Asia in a complex entangle. > > > >> > > > >> And Kshmendra, borders are always a contested lines. You could > suggest > > > >> what it could be. > > > >> > > > >> _________________________________________ > > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > >> subscribe in > > > >> the subject header. > > > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in > > > > the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > +919811047132 > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From pawan.durani at gmail.com Tue Sep 16 19:24:33 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 19:24:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions In-Reply-To: <32144e990809160648r74cd1882xa8470fb344c0a6af@mail.gmail.com> References: <956559.62329.qm@web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <48CFABC7.40008@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70809160627n4c6f81abka34d47c0164fcfc0@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990809160638j37cefbf9xc0cc737765712c31@mail.gmail.com> <6b79f1a70809160641y1f546489n1aa28ae34730ac45@mail.gmail.com> <32144e990809160648r74cd1882xa8470fb344c0a6af@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70809160654g1763c5a2x72709a693384dabe@mail.gmail.com> Dear Partha, You re mistaken. Jammu & Kashmir is not Srinagar only. People would surely buy and invest. Article 370 is a curtain which gives a sense of being different or elevated. Pawan On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 7:18 PM, Partha Dasgupta < partha.dasgupta at eliteinfomachine.com> wrote: > Dear Pawan, > > Even if the Govt gives intermittent approval to people from outside to buy > land in J&K, don't think anyone would buy it in the present situation. > Certainly not for commercial development. > > Also, what's 'extra favors in the name of religion' got to do with Article > 370 ? > > Rgds, Partha > ........................... > > > On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 7:11 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> The reason may be that people in that region do not want extra favors in >> the name of religion. >> Also Govt does give approval from time to time for people from outside to >> buy land in HP. >> >> >> >> On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 7:08 PM, Partha Dasgupta < >> partha.dasgupta at eliteinfomachine.com> wrote: >> >>> Dear Pawan, >>> Won't claim to know how Article 370 is affecting J&K since I don't know. >>> >>> However, am aware that Article 370 is also affected for Himachal Pradesh >>> and some other states where it is not causing an issue. >>> >>> Am not disagreeing with what you are saying. Merely trying to understand >>> what you are trying to say. >>> >>> Rgds, Partha >>> .......................... >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 6:57 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: >>> >>>> The only solution is "abolishing Article 370". It would help Kashmir & >>>> Kashmiris integrate completely into India. >>>> >>>> On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Vivek Narayanan >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> > Kshemendra, >>>> > >>>> > I understand from your comments below that you think that any possible >>>> > "post-national" solution to the question of Kashmir is hogwash, >>>> dreamy, >>>> > silly, unthinkable-- in the same way that the idea of a nation-state >>>> > with a democratic polity was completely unthinkable a few hundred >>>> years >>>> > ago? After all, it is not the specifics of one plan or another that >>>> you >>>> > are objecting to, it is the very idea itself, correct? >>>> > >>>> > Fine-- but my question is, what is your solution? Do you think >>>> > violently assertive forcible Indian military occupation, objected to >>>> by >>>> > the majority of the Kashmiri population, with all kinds of ripple >>>> > effects including (possibly) the steadily increasing militancy and >>>> > radicalisation of the population, the increasing bitterness that >>>> reduces >>>> > the chances of reconcilliation and peace day by day, and only >>>> > increasingly so, should and can continue until kingdom come? Or do >>>> you >>>> > have any other ideas and possibilities in mind? >>>> > >>>> > I ask this as an earnest question, out of curiousity, not as a >>>> polemical >>>> > point. >>>> > >>>> > Vivek >>>> > >>>> > Kshmendra Kaul wrote: >>>> > > Dear Jeebesh >>>> > > >>>> > > You are overstepping yourself. We are still on Point 1 of your >>>> "possible >>>> > ways" arising from your "some friends were talking about different way >>>> of >>>> > thinking about Kashmir." >>>> > > >>>> > > "Referendum" was not in the menu of "possible ways" you floated. Let >>>> us >>>> > get back to your "Demilitarized Zone" >>>> > > >>>> > > You say that a "wide area" has to be De-militarized. That is a >>>> > meaningless generality. Specify that "wide area" if you can. You will >>>> not be >>>> > able to do it if you have not thought over the "possible ways" you >>>> have >>>> > floated. Do some thinking first. >>>> > > >>>> > > You suggest a "popular suffrage" to mark the "border". Over what >>>> "area" >>>> > do you propose that this "popular suffrage" will take place? In that >>>> "area" >>>> > who will participate? >>>> > > >>>> > > Obviously the "suffrage" cannot take place specifically in any >>>> proposed >>>> > "wide area" on "both sides of the border" which you seek to >>>> De-militarize >>>> > because the very purpose of the "suffrage" is to demarcate precisely >>>> that >>>> > "wide area". >>>> > > >>>> > > Kshmendra >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Jeebesh wrote: >>>> > > >>>> > > From: Jeebesh >>>> > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions >>>> > > To: "Sarai Reader-list" >>>> > > Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 4:14 PM >>>> > > >>>> > > Another Floater :) >>>> > > >>>> > > For a serious referendum to happen a very wide area has to be >>>> > > demilitarized on both side of the present border. There can be a >>>> > > popular suffrage to mark the border and hopefully something better >>>> > > than the present situation may emerge. >>>> > > >>>> > > But my floater was not so much about the real-politic of border >>>> > > making. It was about thinking a side ways to get out of this >>>> > > "bleeding" politics and use all the various available international >>>> > > institutions and instruments to arrive at some new arrangements. >>>> > > >>>> > > warmly >>>> > > Jeebesh >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > On 16-Sep-08, at 3:38 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > >> Dear Jeebesh >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> The "Demilitarized Zone" is your proposal and not mine. You >>>> > >> >>>> > > should >>>> > > >>>> > >> be the one to specify its borders. Unless, as is more than likely >>>> > >> and is apparent, you have done very little thinking over the idea >>>> > >> you have floated. >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> Kshmendra >>>> > >> >>>> > >> --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Jeebesh wrote: >>>> > >> >>>> > >> From: Jeebesh >>>> > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions >>>> > >> To: "Sarai Reader-list" >>>> > >> Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 1:15 PM >>>> > >> >>>> > >> On 15-Sep-08, at 11:33 PM, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >>> But I think a BD led UN peacekeeping force in Kashmir would not >>>> fly. >>>> > >>> >>>> > >> Why not? :) It will be South Asia in a complex entangle. >>>> > >> >>>> > >> And Kshmendra, borders are always a contested lines. You could >>>> suggest >>>> > >> what it could be. >>>> > >> >>>> > >> _________________________________________ >>>> > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> > >> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> > >> subscribe in >>>> > >> the subject header. >>>> > >> To unsubscribe: >>>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > > >>>> > > _________________________________________ >>>> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> > > Critiques & Collaborations >>>> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> > subscribe in >>>> > > the subject header. >>>> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > _________________________________________ >>>> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> > > Critiques & Collaborations >>>> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>>> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> > >>>> > _________________________________________ >>>> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> > Critiques & Collaborations >>>> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> > subscribe in the subject header. >>>> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Partha Dasgupta >>> +919811047132 >>> >> >> > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > +919811047132 > From kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 16 19:29:07 2008 From: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com (Kshmendra Kaul) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 06:59:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions In-Reply-To: <48CFABC7.40008@sarai.net> Message-ID: <757933.31206.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear Vivek   Either I did not know what I was writing or you chose not understand. Either way that is unfortunate. You would not want that happening with you. Would you?   Where in this particular thread have I mentioned or suggested that :   """"  any possible "post-national" solution to the question of Kashmir is hogwash, dreamy, silly, unthinkable"""""   Once you answer that, I could (perhaps tomorrow) address rest of what you have written.   Kshmendra --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Vivek Narayanan wrote: From: Vivek Narayanan Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, "sarai list" Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 6:21 PM Kshemendra, I understand from your comments below that you think that any possible "post-national" solution to the question of Kashmir is hogwash, dreamy, silly, unthinkable-- in the same way that the idea of a nation-state with a democratic polity was completely unthinkable a few hundred years ago? After all, it is not the specifics of one plan or another that you are objecting to, it is the very idea itself, correct? Fine-- but my question is, what is your solution? Do you think violently assertive forcible Indian military occupation, objected to by the majority of the Kashmiri population, with all kinds of ripple effects including (possibly) the steadily increasing militancy and radicalisation of the population, the increasing bitterness that reduces the chances of reconcilliation and peace day by day, and only increasingly so, should and can continue until kingdom come? Or do you have any other ideas and possibilities in mind? I ask this as an earnest question, out of curiousity, not as a polemical point. Vivek Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Jeebesh > > You are overstepping yourself. We are still on Point 1 of your "possible ways" arising from your "some friends were talking about different way of thinking about Kashmir." > > "Referendum" was not in the menu of "possible ways" you floated. Let us get back to your "Demilitarized Zone" > > You say that a "wide area" has to be De-militarized. That is a meaningless generality. Specify that "wide area" if you can. You will not be able to do it if you have not thought over the "possible ways" you have floated. Do some thinking first. > > You suggest a "popular suffrage" to mark the "border". Over what "area" do you propose that this "popular suffrage" will take place? In that "area" who will participate? > > Obviously the "suffrage" cannot take place specifically in any proposed "wide area" on "both sides of the border" which you seek to De-militarize because the very purpose of the "suffrage" is to demarcate precisely that "wide area". > > Kshmendra > > > > --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Jeebesh wrote: > > From: Jeebesh > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 4:14 PM > > Another Floater :) > > For a serious referendum to happen a very wide area has to be > demilitarized on both side of the present border. There can be a > popular suffrage to mark the border and hopefully something better > than the present situation may emerge. > > But my floater was not so much about the real-politic of border > making. It was about thinking a side ways to get out of this > "bleeding" politics and use all the various available international > institutions and instruments to arrive at some new arrangements. > > warmly > Jeebesh > > > On 16-Sep-08, at 3:38 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > >> Dear Jeebesh >> >> >> >> The "Demilitarized Zone" is your proposal and not mine. You >> > should > >> be the one to specify its borders. Unless, as is more than likely >> and is apparent, you have done very little thinking over the idea >> you have floated. >> >> >> >> >> >> Kshmendra >> >> --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Jeebesh wrote: >> >> From: Jeebesh >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions >> To: "Sarai Reader-list" >> Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 1:15 PM >> >> On 15-Sep-08, at 11:33 PM, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: >> >> >>> But I think a BD led UN peacekeeping force in Kashmir would not fly. >>> >> Why not? :) It will be South Asia in a complex entangle. >> >> And Kshmendra, borders are always a contested lines. You could suggest >> what it could be. >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in >> the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From vivek at sarai.net Tue Sep 16 19:41:20 2008 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 19:41:20 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Pan African Space Station Radio Message-ID: <48CFBE88.2040309@sarai.net> Pan African Space Station (PASS) is a 30 day "musical intervention" on radio, internet & live venues around Cape Town, South Africa. Very sadly for those not in Cape Town, the live events line up a truly remarkable set of acts -- http://www.panafricanspacestation.org.za/artists.php -- including Madala Kunene -- http://www.panafricanspacestation.org.za/artist.php?artist=kunene -- one of the most amazing musicians I have ever seen perform (when playing solo voice + "Zulu guitar")-- BUT... ...we can listen to streaming radio from Space: http://www.panafricanspacestation.org.za/index.php ! Vivek From vivek at sarai.net Tue Sep 16 19:55:02 2008 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 19:55:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions In-Reply-To: <757933.31206.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <757933.31206.qm@web57205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48CFC1BE.9070103@sarai.net> I did not say you wrote that Kshmendra, I said that I was given to understand it that way from what you were saying. Hence, the question mark in my note below. Perhaps you are being a little too intelligently vague. In any case, if you do think there are possibilities here beyond the nation state, including beyond occupation by and assertion and domination of the Indian nation state, I'd be very glad to hear of them. Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Dear Vivek > > > > Either I did not know what I was writing or you chose not understand. > Either way that is unfortunate. You would not want that happening with > you. Would you? > > > > Where in this particular thread have I mentioned or suggested that : > > > > """" any possible "post-national" solution to the question of Kashmir > is hogwash, > dreamy, silly, unthinkable""""" > > > > Once you answer that, I could (perhaps tomorrow) address rest of what > you have written. > > > > Kshmendra > > From krishnanrr at rediffmail.com Tue Sep 16 22:56:08 2008 From: krishnanrr at rediffmail.com (Radhakrishnan) Date: 16 Sep 2008 17:26:08 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] LTTE Message-ID: <20080916172608.49466.qmail@f4mail-235-244.rediffmail.com> The LTTE is not an Indian Organisation, similarly SIMI is not an arabian or pakistani organisation. The conflict is on ethno-religious lines. So please don't drag LTTE-a fascist organisation in scoring brownie points here in India. The context and causes are qualitatively different in Srilanka. We have our own quota of Hindu,Muslim, Christian (NSCN, pentacoatal) fundamentalism and groups of bigots in India so there is no need to look outside. Radhakrishnan   On Tue, 16 Sep 2008 reader-list-request at sarai.net wrote : >Send reader-list mailing list submissions to > reader-list at sarai.net > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > reader-list-request at sarai.net > >You can reach the person managing the list at > reader-list-owner at sarai.net > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: after yesterday in Delhi (Kshmendra Kaul) > 2. Re: Some Points from discussions (Jeebesh) > 3. Re: Some Points from discussions (Vivek Narayanan) > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Message: 1 >Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 04:37:34 -0700 (PDT) > From: Kshmendra Kaul >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi >To: Partha Dasgupta >Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >Message-ID: <555100.70334.qm at web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > >Dear Partha > >My questioning of the LTTE being called Hindu was to help me in my discussions with my own self. > >I am still struggling in my mind over 'what is terror'; 'who is a terrorist'; 'when should an organisation (or a system) be called a terrorist one' and 'when should an act of terror, or a terrorist, or a terrorist organisation be identified with an ideology/religion/place/societal group'. > >There is total agreement with your words: > >"""""" The terrorist may belong to any religion or caste or place or whatever - however, lumping all the people of that religion or caste or place as terrorists because one or some people from that group performed 'acts of terrorism' is not justifiable.""""""" > >Kshmendra > > > > > >--- On Tue, 9/16/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > From: Partha Dasgupta >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi >To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com >Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 9:37 AM > > > >Dear Kshmendra, > > >Studied in Baroda / Vadodra and saw communal rights flare up on the weirdest of reasons. Have seen a close friend who wouldn't kill cockroaches try to burn a bus in the frenzy of a mob. > > >As for defining the LTTE as Hindu - my point is different, and is something I have mentioned earlier. The terrorist may belong to any religion or caste or place or whatever - however, lumping all the people of that religion or caste or place as terrorists because one or some people from that group performed 'acts of terrorism' is not justifiable. > > >In short, am against the mass generalization wherein we identify an entire group a 'terrorists'. > > >To put it the other way around, am a Hindu, but do not identify with the demolition of the Babri Masjid or the attacks on Christians that is happening. Just a personal belief, but if any person is converting to another faith for benefits accrued then obviously his faith wasn't strong in the first place & s/he won't be much of a loss. > > >Rgds, Partha >....................................... > > >On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 7:17 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > >Dear Partha > >Do not mean to butt in. > >Just wondering whether any 'acts of terrorrising' by the LTTE can be designated as 'acts of terrorising' by Hindus. > >Would it not be more apt to link 'acts of terror' with a religious identity when such 'acts of terror' are carried out in the name a particular religion or are solely based on the religious identity? > >There are many instances of 'acts of terror by Hindus' which can be so designated because they are carried out in the name of Hinduism or are solely based upon and connected to the Hindu identity of the perpetrators. > >Just wondering. > >Kshmendra > > >--- On Sun, 9/14/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > From: Partha Dasgupta >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi >To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net >Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >Date: Sunday, September 14, 2008, 4:28 PM > > > > >Dear Radhika Rajen, > >In may mails on this list you have pointed out how the elected >representative is only a beneficiary divided caste votes and not a true >representative. > >Now you jump to another point altogether and talk about the UPA chairperson >and the eloctorate. > >Please  stick to a viewpoint as it is hard to trace what your viewpoint is. >If you have changed your viewpoint, then please denote so. > >In any case, saw the killings (directly and first hand in Delhi) during the >Sikh militancy days and have seen communal riots in Baroda, Gujarat; and all >I can say is that when herd mentality takes over the common sense is lost. > >Also, from Babri Masjid to the incapable idiots who got blown up some time >back, we have seen Hindu militancy. > >Either we can agree that militancy in all forms is wrong or we can quibble >about shades of right or wrong. > >So, where do you stand: > >a)   Militancy & armed conflict is wrong > >OR > >b)   Hindu's are allowed to have a conflict as they have been repressed as >a >majority >     and that cases like Godhra, Sikh killings in Delhi and Babri Masjid >are justified. > >Rgds, Partha > >PS: I do note that when you talk of terror, you never refer to the LTTE >(Hindu & Indian) which is considered as one of the most dangerous terrorist >organisations and has killed a Prime Minister of India (and is not Muslim or >Christian) or the killing of Indira Gandi - or is it that since they were >not BJP/RSS that you do not consider them a loss? >..................................................... > >On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 4:05 PM, wrote: > > > Without getting in to blame games, the need of the moment is the > > chairperson of UPA who is now proxy governor of the nation should have >good > > introspection of the events and see if her Home Minister who was once > > speaker, but discarded by the electorate, got into rajya sabha by >nomination > >  and then is the Home minister, is he capable of any action. A dummy like > > Prime minister, again diitto to the governance who has no incentive to > > perform as Prime minister being discard beaucrat, has been  of yester >years, > > can not make up his mind to take tough action for fear of votebank getting > > "hurt". By this inaction, in actual practise muslims are getting >branded as > > terrorists for the simple reason, they are not willing to be ready to > > identify, isolate and give up those who indulge in terror activities. It >is > > sad scene indeed. Wheras the hindus do not want violence and bhajrang dal > > gets no sympathy for its acts of violence, muslims by floating NGOs to > > defend the accused are helping the ter > > ror accused, sheltoring the accused for plain and simple lots of money in > > the trade of defending the terror. > > > > regards. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Priya Sen > > Date: Sunday, September 14, 2008 3:18 pm > > Subject: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > Dear All, > > > > > > India Gate, September 13th, 6:20 or so in the evening. I had > > > decided to walk > > > from Triveni Academy towards Khan Market, determined to buy a > > > bicycle and > > > thinking, it's getting dark and maybe I should wait until Monday > > > and I > > > shouldn't tell my mother about my biking plans and even though I > > > plan to > > > ride early mornings I need to ride it back home now and so on and > > > so forth. > > > India Gate was as India Gate is on a weekend evening. Walking > > > through it > > > made me think of other times I had been there, a few specific > > > memories and a > > > general sense of being in Delhi - of familiarity and ease from > > > having been > > > here for as long as I have, and of curiousity, the kind that comes > > > fromknowing that places are never the same - making mental notes > > > for no one > > > really about the Kwality Walls ice cream cart that had a board > > > saying 'Old > > > Vendor, India Gate since 1956', and the astrologer who sits in >the > > > sameplace always, and people with video cameras filming the gate > > > who always make > > > me wonder at what they think  when they play it back later. It > > > took 15 > > > minutes to cross over to Shah Jahan Road. Me, a couple of young > > > men, and a > > > papad seller who the policeman who was also waiting for the lights to > > > change, generally swore at, and I laughed at how swearing is so > > > integral to > > > ones day in Delhi. > > > > > > > > > Later I heard there were a couple of bombs that were defused, one > > > at Regal > > > Cinema and one at India Gate. I realized how many stories there > > > are now. Of > > > yesterday. Of where we were when.. . Of places we know so well. Of > > > our lives > > > up until the moment life changed for so many people in our city. > > > Of the > > > things that make our days what they are and will continue to. > > > Everyone will > > > have a story because everyone needs to claim something from > > > moments like > > > these. And everyone (in this city) must because this moment was > > > about Delhi. > > > It's happened before. Here, in other places, it will happen again > > > and again > > > and these will be 'the times according to people who live in >these > > > times'.And all we can really do is to embrace our lives a little > > > harder. > > > > > > The last time I mourned for this city, a little like this, is when > > > I watched > > > Nanglamachi being demolished and people gathering their lives into > > > bundlesand tempos and going wherever. The ruthlessness was > > > overwhelming. Not to > > > make analogies here. Although nothing wrong with analogies and > > > other things > > > that make us feel what we feel. No rules for that! Think, feel > > > whatever - > > > it's all part of the way we make sense of things on day 2. It was >like > > > watching the news right after the blasts happened, when the > > > reporters were > > > as bewildered as everyone else. Somehow in their floundering the news > > > channels were credible for a moment. Before the information > > > started coming > > > in and before they started interpreting it, that is. We know what > > > they do > > > and do well. Nothing is surprising, just a bit defeating and then > > > you think > > > why. Maybe we're defeated by the way we think, are told to think, > > > don'tthink. Maybe sometimes it has nothing to do with how we >live. > > > > > > > > > Delhi feels quiet today, but that's also from where I am. Also > > > it's Sunday. > > > It will probably not seem very different when I go out later in the > > > afternoon. But my sister called me this morning and was in tears > > > and saying > > > she couldn't sleep because of all this and is feeling restless > > > because lakhs > > > of people are going to be out on the streets today for Ganapati > > > visarjan in > > > Bombay. For her it's about Bombay as well, the place where she >has > > > her life. > > > When public places become vulnerable it means having to make > > > decisions about > > > things one doesn't necessarily think about. It's about >everything > > > outside of > > > us that is essential to how we construct our lives. It's about > > > everydaydecisions, small things, immediate concerns. About being > > > able to imagine, > > > and dream and lose ourselves in places. For a few days we will be > > > excruciatingly aware of how we move around the city. There will be > > > remorseand anxiety and conversation. We will share a common grief, > > > in degrees, and > > > it will bring us together more intensely. We will count and blame and > > > speculate. And then we will thankfully, move on. > > > > > > > > > Right now though, I would rather not. Not for today. I just want > > > to be with > > > what this city means to me. Aside from its symbols, its creation > > > of itself, > > > its skewed power dynamics and unbearable inequalities. A friend > > > and I are > > > convinced that "Delhi steps in when we really need something >to.". > > > Like the > > > wisdom of places. Not to get melodramatic! I'm glad I was here > > > when this > > > happened and not somewhere else. > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > Priya > > > > > > -- > > > Priya Sen > > > Sarai-CSDS > > > 29, Rajpur Road, Civil Lines > > > Delhi - 110054 > > > priya at sarai.net > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > list > > > List archive: > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > >-- >Partha Dasgupta >+919811047132 > > > >_________________________________________ >reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >Critiques & Collaborations >To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in >the subject header. >To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >List archive: > > > >_________________________________________ >reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >Critiques & Collaborations >To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >List archive: > > >-- >Partha Dasgupta >+919811047132 > > > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 2 >Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 17:44:50 +0530 > From: Jeebesh >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions >To: Sarai Reader-list >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; format=flowed; delsp=yes > >Is it so difficult as you make it out to be? > >enclosed is the UN resolution in 1951. Surely many maps and documents >about border was submitted. It can be ascertained and worked out. > >warmly >jeebesh > >http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/kashun91.htm >Resolution 91 (1951) >Concerning the India-Pakistan question submitted by the >Representatives of >United Kingdom and United States and adopted by the Security Council on >March 30, 1951. >(Document No. S/2017/Rev. 1, dated the 30th March, 1951). > >THE SECURITY COUNCIL, >Having received and noted the report of Sir Owen Dixon, the United >Nations Representative for >India and Pakistan on his mission initiated by the Security Council >resolution 80 (1950) of March >14, 1950. > >Observing that the Governments of India and Pakistan have accepted the >provisions of the United >Nations Commission for India and Pakistan resolutions of 13 August, >1948, and 5 January, 1949, >and have re-affirmed their desire that the future of the State of >Jammu and Kashmir shall be decided >through the democratic method of a free and impartial plebiscite >conducted under the auspices of the >United Nations. > >Observing that on 27 October, 1950, the General Council of the "All >Jammu and Kashmir National >Conference" adopted a resolution recommending the convening of a >Constituent Assembly for the >purpose of determining the "future shape and affiliations of the State >of Jammu and Kashmir"; >observing further from statements of responsible authorities that >action is proposed to convene such >a Constituent Assembly and that the area from which such a Constituent >Assembly would be elected >is only a part of the whole territory of Jammu and Kashmir. > >Reminding the Governments and authorities concerned of the principle >embodied in its resolutions 47 >(1948) of 21 April 1948, 51(1948) of 3 June, 1948 and 80 (1950) of 14 >March, 1950 and the >United Nations Commission for India and Pakistan resolutions of 13 >August, 1948, and 5 January, >1949, that the final disposition of the State of Jammu and Kashmir >will be made in accordance with >the will of the people expressed through the democratic method of a >free and impartial plebiscite >conducted under the auspices of the United Nations. > >Affirming that the convening of a Constituent Assembly as recommended >by the General Council of >the "All Jammu and Kashmir National Conference" and any action that >Assembly might attempt to >take to determine the future shape and affiliation of the entire State >or any part thereof would not >constitute a disposition of the State in accordance with the above >principle. > >Declaring its belief that it is the duty of the Security Council in >carrying out its primary responsibility >for the maintenance of international peace and security to aid the >parties to reach an amicable >solution of the Kashmir dispute and that a prompt settlement of this >dispute is of vital importance to >the maintenance of international peace and security. > >Observing from Sir Owen Dixon's report that the main points of >difference preventing agreement >between the parties were: > >(a) The procedure for and the extent of demilitarisation of the State >preparatory to the holding >of a plebiscite, and > >(b) The degree of control over the exercise of the functions of >Government in the State >necessary to ensure a free and fair plebiscite. > >(1) Accepts, in compliance with his request, Sir Owen Dixon's >resignation and expresses its >gratitude to Sir Owen Dixon's resignation and expresses its gratitude >to Sir Owen for the great ability >and devotion with which he carried out his mission; > >(2) Decides to appoint a United Nations Representative for India and >Pakistan in succession to Sir >Owen Dixon; > >(3) Instructs the United Nations Representative to proceed to the sub- >continent and, after >consultation with the Governments of India and Pakistan, to effect the >demilitarisation of the State of >Jammu and Kashmir on the basis of the United Nations Commission for >India and Pakistan >resolutions of 13 August, 1948, and, 5 January, 1949; > >(4) Calls upon the parties to co-operate with the United Nations >Representative to the fullest degree >in effecting the demilitarisation of the State of Jammu and Kashmir; > >(5) Instructs the United Nations Representatives to report to the >Security Council within three >months from the date of his arrival on the sub-continent; if at the >time of this report, he has not >effected demilitarisation in accordance with paragraph three above, or >obtained the agreement of the >parties to a plan for effecting such demilitarisation, the United >Nations Representative shall report to >the Security Council those points of difference between the parties in >regard to the interpretation and >execution of the agreed resolutions of 13 August, 1948, and 5 January, >1949, which he considers >must be resolved to enable such demilitarisation to be carried out; > >(6) Calls upon the parties, in the event of their discussions with the >United Nations Representative >failing in his opinion to result in full agreement, to accept >arbitration upon all outstanding points of >difference reported by the United Nations representative in accordance >with paragraph five above. >Such arbitration to be carried 'out by an arbitrator, or a panel of >arbitrators, to be appointed by the >President of the International Court of Justice after consultation >with the parties; > >(7) Decides that the Military Observer Group shall continue to >supervise the cease-fire in the State; > >(8) Requests the Governments of India and Pakistan to ensure that >their cement regarding the >cease-fire shall continue to be faithfully observed and calls them to >take all possible measures to >ensure the creation and maintenance of an atmosphere favourable to the >promotion of further >negotiations and to refrain from any likely to prejudice a just and >peaceful settlement; > >(9) Requests the Secretary-General to provide the United Nations >Representative for India and >Pakistan with such services and facilities as may be necessary in >carrying out the terms of this >resolution. > >The Security Council voted on this Resolution on 30-3-51 with the >following result: >In favour: Brazil, China, Ecuador, France, Netherlands, Turkey, U.K. >and U.S.A. >Against: None >Abstaining: India, U.S.S.R. and Yugoslavia. > >On 16-Sep-08, at 4:50 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > Dear Jeebesh > > > > You are overstepping yourself. We are still on Point 1 of your > > "possible ways" arising from your "some friends were talking about > > different way of thinking about Kashmir." > > > > "Referendum" was not in the menu of "possible ways" you floated. Let > > us get back to your "Demilitarized Zone" > > > > You say that a "wide area" has to be De-militarized. That is a > > meaningless generality. Specify that "wide area" if you can. You > > will not be able to do it if you have not thought over the "possible > > ways" you have floated. Do some thinking first. > > > > You suggest a "popular suffrage" to mark the "border". Over what > > "area" do you propose that this "popular suffrage" will take place? > > In that "area" who will participate? > > > > Obviously the "suffrage" cannot take place specifically in any > > proposed "wide area" on "both sides of the border" which you seek > > to De-militarize because the very purpose of the "suffrage" is to > > demarcate precisely that "wide area". > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Jeebesh wrote: > > > > From: Jeebesh > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions > > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > > Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 4:14 PM > > > > Another Floater :) > > > > For a serious referendum to happen a very wide area has to be > > demilitarized on both side of the present border. There can be a > > popular suffrage to mark the border and hopefully something better > > than the present situation may emerge. > > > > But my floater was not so much about the real-politic of border > > making. It was about thinking a side ways to get out of this > > "bleeding" politics and use all the various available international > > institutions and instruments to arrive at some new arrangements. > > > > warmly > > Jeebesh > > > > > > On 16-Sep-08, at 3:38 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > >> Dear Jeebesh > >> > >> > >> > >> The "Demilitarized Zone" is your proposal and not mine. You > > should > >> be the one to specify its borders. Unless, as is more than likely > >> and is apparent, you have done very little thinking over the idea > >> you have floated. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Kshmendra > >> > >> --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Jeebesh wrote: > >> > >> From: Jeebesh > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions > >> To: "Sarai Reader-list" > >> Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 1:15 PM > >> > >> On 15-Sep-08, at 11:33 PM, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > >> > >>> But I think a BD led UN peacekeeping force in Kashmir would not fly. > >> > >> Why not? :) It will be South Asia in a complex entangle. > >> > >> And Kshmendra, borders are always a contested lines. You could > >> suggest > >> what it could be. > >> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in > >> the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > >> > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in > > the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 3 >Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 18:21:19 +0530 > From: Vivek Narayanan >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions >To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, sarai list >Message-ID: <48CFABC7.40008 at sarai.net> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed > >Kshemendra, > >I understand from your comments below that you think that any possible >"post-national" solution to the question of Kashmir is hogwash, dreamy, >silly, unthinkable-- in the same way that the idea of a nation-state >with a democratic polity was completely unthinkable a few hundred years >ago? After all, it is not the specifics of one plan or another that you >are objecting to, it is the very idea itself, correct? > >Fine-- but my question is, what is your solution? Do you think >violently assertive forcible Indian military occupation, objected to by >the majority of the Kashmiri population, with all kinds of ripple >effects including (possibly) the steadily increasing militancy and >radicalisation of the population, the increasing bitterness that reduces >the chances of reconcilliation and peace day by day, and only >increasingly so, should and can continue until kingdom come? Or do you >have any other ideas and possibilities in mind? > >I ask this as an earnest question, out of curiousity, not as a polemical >point. > >Vivek > >Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > Dear Jeebesh > > > > You are overstepping yourself. We are still on Point 1 of your "possible ways" arising from your "some friends were talking about different way of thinking about Kashmir." > > > > "Referendum" was not in the menu of "possible ways" you floated. Let us get back to your "Demilitarized Zone" > > > > You say that a "wide area" has to be De-militarized. That is a meaningless generality. Specify that "wide area" if you can. You will not be able to do it if you have not thought over the "possible ways" you have floated. Do some thinking first. > > > > You suggest a "popular suffrage" to mark the "border". Over what "area" do you propose that this "popular suffrage" will take place? In that "area" who will participate? > > > > Obviously the "suffrage" cannot take place specifically in any proposed "wide area" on "both sides of the border" which you seek to De-militarize because the very purpose of the "suffrage" is to demarcate precisely that "wide area". > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Jeebesh wrote: > > > > From: Jeebesh > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions > > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > > Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 4:14 PM > > > > Another Floater :) > > > > For a serious referendum to happen a very wide area has to be > > demilitarized on both side of the present border. There can be a > > popular suffrage to mark the border and hopefully something better > > than the present situation may emerge. > > > > But my floater was not so much about the real-politic of border > > making. It was about thinking a side ways to get out of this > > "bleeding" politics and use all the various available international > > institutions and instruments to arrive at some new arrangements. > > > > warmly > > Jeebesh > > > > > > On 16-Sep-08, at 3:38 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > > > >> Dear Jeebesh > >> > >> > >> > >> The "Demilitarized Zone" is your proposal and not mine. You > >> > > should > > > >> be the one to specify its borders. Unless, as is more than likely > >> and is apparent, you have done very little thinking over the idea > >> you have floated. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Kshmendra > >> > >> --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Jeebesh wrote: > >> > >> From: Jeebesh > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions > >> To: "Sarai Reader-list" > >> Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 1:15 PM > >> > >> On 15-Sep-08, at 11:33 PM, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > >> > >> > >>> But I think a BD led UN peacekeeping force in Kashmir would not fly. > >>> > >> Why not? :) It will be South Asia in a complex entangle. > >> > >> And Kshmendra, borders are always a contested lines. You could suggest > >> what it could be. > >> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in > >> the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > >> > >> > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > > the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > >------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >reader-list mailing list >reader-list at sarai.net >https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >End of reader-list Digest, Vol 62, Issue 90 >******************************************* From indersalim at gmail.com Wed Sep 17 00:38:16 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 00:38:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The Azadi We Need In-Reply-To: <137654.60176.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <47e122a70809140900u730dc808j5508e98f48fdc607@mail.gmail.com> <137654.60176.qm@web57204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70809161208kb63210dhe8df08b5f9c39250@mail.gmail.com> Dear Kshmendra, How to think geography of a would be nation, when we have lost Earth, collectively. ( almost ) Poignantly, I thought of verse while writing uni(vers)al but as you see, one alphabet is short. I am looking for it, and might discover it in an(other) language, an(other) word, an(other) performance, an(other) thought. May be we have lost it permanently so there is no chance to restore the uni(vers)al, but I have no other option but to try. The verse, I believe is most vital part of anything that qualifies for universal. Here, I am acutely thinking about culture ( more as oral than written ) as ancient way of living. Even what we tentatively believe as ancient may not qualify what I am thinking about 'ancient'. I am obviously vague, but not out of place. So, universal words like beauty, compassion and truth are embedded in verse, in the form of it. The moment we isolate the meaning from thought, here verse , all we get is dogma. So religion is a dogma, you may agree or not. So a Nation State too, once it is based on religion, race, colour, caste gender automatically lapses into some other sort of dogmatic practice. It banishes the 'verse' of it, and simply replaces it with something worse. Remember, even Plato is known for his difficulties with poets. But, Socrates , questioning was not far from some poetics in continuity of thought. He could unnerve a politician as well as a poet, but a poet could have never sentenced him to death, so they could have lived all along, even though debating this or that, endlessly. That is what I like. I am certainly not talking about poetry, but something else, and since I already exposed my inability to write that in absence of an alphabet, metaphorically even, necessary for the completion of thought. But alas! We chased meaning ruthlessly, even in poetry, and compelled the verse to hide itself in aesthetic designs only. Be it some arabesque, a design in stone, a thoughtful image, a sculpture, a piece of music or an act. All we have is Nation States who have aesthetic designs called State Collections, State poets who sing songs in praise of Nationhood, directly and in disguise, and music which is based on hierarchy and state like discipline. There must be a sincere form of 'verse' in music, in image, in thought and in love still around. I am optimistic. Don't we know that Armed forces too have a design, an aesthetic sense. They too are religious and know how to sing and write a poem. About corporate- culture, the less said the better- they are the most privileged of Nation State. You will feel that I am delaying the topic :Kashmir, but I am talking about it as well. I am not interested in naked politics, be it Kashmir or else where. The life, as in the present is wrapped in black humour, and multiples of losses registered in our singular and layered memory patterns. There is a no-mans land in the life of each one of us, and that is why there is a word 'angst' which perhaps translates as existential loneliness. But these things quickly lapse into literature, or poetics. So we want hard politics, and for that we can go to any extent. Time and again, I tried to inset the word ' environmental' in the on going political uncertainty in Kashmir. As we know that geography is part of any discourse on anything environmental but not whole, because environmental is also about way of living. It is again vague, but not out of place. That is why, the constitution of any would be nation can not be without the acute consideration of environment, and urgent subjects like Feminism. A new way of living can emerge, a new sociology can emerge, for example in Kashmir if it is given a chance to become a free economic zone between the countries that encircle it- China, India and Pakistan, then it might throw a fresh example. Let them have their own currency, so what. But I am not in support of a Kashmiri Army with guns on its boarders. That is indeed utopian, yes, but that is how we can talk about something New in international politics. Satus Quos are dead. Yes, in the present form, the Indian constitution is not a bad one to be copied for a new would be nation, as India has done is already under the apt leadership of Baba Ambedkar. The Queen of England too could have argued that if you are lifting from British laws to run a new country what is the harm if we continue to rule. All they needed was a proper implementation of the law. But no, we needed a free country, even when they could have provided a better administration, a better railway network and better health system. About constitution- do we merge all those Nations whose constitutions are similar in content and thought. True we can't specify what that new free constitution would look like, but that is not the excuse to occupy endlessly. India too begun with a new country in 1947, but see what we got. Cheap American model of a capitalist state, which is neither fish nor fowl, so we can question this too. Tomorrow Kashmir can become a worst case than what India is at the moment, we can question that too, what is the fear. But at the moment, is India justified to hold on in Kashmir with not a single soul ready to sing Vandhey Mataram, Yes, Muslim character of Muslims in Kashmir cant be simply wished away, but that does not mean all the muslims of the world need to live under a single roof. this blood spilling on the roads in Kashmir may come to end sooner than possible, one only wishes. We are all concerned. We may blame ISI or even America even for that. And if India has truly some national compulsion to hold on Kashmir, then at least they can declare, yes we need slaves as long as we are not confident of ourselves. with love is On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 5:04 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Inder Salim > > Sanjay Kak's (SK's) comment that you have quoted is a ridiculous one coming > as it does from someone who through various forms of expression has > "identified" himself closely with the Kashmir "Azadi". > > If the likes of SK, who are ever so ready to speak for and on behalf of the > Kashmir "Azadi" have no idea "what the movement aims at" then the least that > they are guilty of is intellectual dishonesty. In fact they bear moral, > ethical and criminal responsibilty for furthering the circles of violence > that engulf and permeate through Kashmir and ever so often spiral out with > tragic consequences. > > That holds true for you too Inder Salim since you parrot SK's comment. > > In "The Azadi We Need", Umair Muhajir addresses precisely this kind of > glibness while chiding Arundhati Roy for the pretense that could be used an > an excuse for ignorance about such matters. The excuse being that it > was "merely a question of the Kashmiri separatists not having spelled out > their agenda in greater detail as yet." > > There are some questions I have asked in my post. Answer those questions > Inder Salim. I will not every single time indulge your arrogance in asking > questions when you are not bothered to answer those asked. If you do not > have the answers to the questions, then seek their answers. > > Your confused comments (or slick attempts at trying to confuse) do not > interest me. > For your benefit I am reproducing the questions. The answers to them will > also serve well to bring some clarity to your confusions: > > 1. When "Azadi" is spoken about in connection with Kashmir, what is the > geography of that "Kashmir"? > > 2. The 'contours of the movement' and 'elements of Azadi' in Indian > Controlled Kashmir are fairly well know even if not well understood. If the > "geography" of the Kashmir "Azadi" covers the 'erstwhile Princely State of > Jammu and Kashmir as it stood Pre-1947-Partition' then what are the > 'contours of the movement' and the 'elements of Azadi' in Pakistan > Controlled Kashmir? What are the synergies between the two? When and How > will the two merge? > > 3. If the Kashmir "Azadi" does not cover Pakistan Controlled Kashmir, Why > not? > > 4. Will the Kashmir "Azadi" lead to a "New Country"? > > 5. How will this New Nation State be better than the Indian Nation State as > far as Indian Controlled Kashmir is concerned? What will make it better? > > 6. What will the Constitution (briefly) of this New Country be? > > 7. On what specific points will the Constitution of this New Country be > different from the Constitution of India? In what specific aspects will the > Constitution of this New Country be better than the Constitution of India? > > > Kshmendra > > > --- On Sun, 9/14/08, inder salim wrote: > > From: inder salim > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The Azadi We Need > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Sunday, September 14, 2008, 9:30 PM > > dear kshmendra > > your you are likely to get a long passionate reflection on your > passionalte reflection on UAM's article which has already been > passionnately reflected by Sanjay Kak, Vivek... > > I quote Sanjay, > > Because in the absence of democracy, in the absence of free and fearless > politics, and in the presence of a quite monstrous apparatus of occupation, > none of us can as yet lay claim to saying that we know what the movement > aims at. > > Now if you see hypocrrisy in what is being talked about on kashmir, > then you suggest, what are alternative ways of talking kashmir. One is > to maintain Status Quo, the other the questioning. And we are all > passionately questioning, and of course we all are outsiders to > Kashmir conflict. We all are living in India and that is normal. But > that does not mean we should not question. To be secptic is not such a > bad idea after all. Jean paul Sartre questioned the occupation of > Algeria by France, and lot of other Nationalists intyellcetuals > criticized him for taking a stand against the country of which he was > proud citizen, But history proved him right. > > The Nation State has failed on many accounts. So why no question that > even. Why not to provide more and more autonomy to all the States in > Indian union. 10 Janpath is not where God need to be. > > about question of a free Kashmir and the need to know its would be > Geography is a valid one. But we dont know, no one has an answer, > > > but absence of an answer does not mean that there is no question. > > regards and love > is > > > > > > On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 8:46 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: >> I look forward to reflections that will be posted about "The Azadi We > Need" by Umair Ahmed Muhajir (UAM). Thank you Jeebesh for posting the > article. >> >> On this List there are many people in whom one can see a confluence of > what are two basically contradictory positions. They are dismissive of the > "Nation State" and "Nationalism" and at the same time are > supportive of the Kashmir "Azadi". There is an inherent hypocrisy in > this because all that they are doing is seeking to reject Indian Nationalism > and > favouring Kashmir Nationalism even as they elsewhere constantly proclaim > that > they are 'against' Nationalism and 'against' the concept of > Nation States. >> >> In his very competently written piece, UAM dismisses the "Azadi" > call in Kashmir since he sees it as an attempt to carve out another "Nation > State" out of the existing Indian "Nation State". >> >> UAM's repugnance is for a Nation State of any hue. His dismissal of > Kashmir "Azadi" (and of Arundhati Roy's "rallying cry" > in its support) is based on questioning what, in the the name of > "Azadi," is being sought to be "let loose on the world" and > questioning "the logic that they and would-be nationalists of all stripes > have attempted to replicate for decades". >> >> In UAM's view, all of this Kashmir "Azadi" movement(s), if > successful, would only lead to yet another "Nation State" and so he > finds no merit in it. The "Azadi" that UAM is looking for is described > by him as "the freedom we need is azadi from the mindset that thinks of > peoples and communities only in terms of nation-states". >> >> On a personal note - in UAM's favoured recognition of > "Azadi" I too subscribe to the expansiveness of attitude that one > should not think of "peoples and communities" ONLY in terms of Nation > States. I say that to and for myself, as one who subscribes to and fervently > argues in support of Nation States since I see them as (currently at least) > the > only credible practically functional system for organized societies. Without > any > qualification, I completely share UAM's desire for "an azadi that > demands that the Indian state honour its promise, to itself and to us." >> >> UAM does not contest Arundhati Roy's "critique -- of the Indian > state's indifference, its callousness, its inhumanity, its cruelty" > since UAM recognizes that India as a Nation State "does what nation-states > do: in the final analysis, sacrifice humanity in the service of a larger > political project." >> >> At the same time UAM says with confidence that "nothing in the > Kashmiri independence movement suggests that it will throw up anything > different; indeed given that the movement aims at a traditional nation-state > just like all the others, I submit that it cannot yield a different > result." >> >> Giving examples of "Minority rights? Justice for different > communities, and between genders?" UAM does not see any difference in the > aims of the (Azadi) 'movement' and those of the "existing Indian > state". >> >> UAM rather sarcastically tells Arundhati Roy that she did "well not > to linger" over her "thought experiment" where she wondered > "what the independence demanded by the state's Muslim majority might > mean for the state's religious or other minorities". UAM suggests that > """"identities of those disadvantaged will shift, as new > disfavoured minorities, new "outsiders", new "insiders", and > new identity policemen"""""" >> >> UAM finds disingenuous any sidelining of such concerns with any excuse > that it was "merely a question of the Kashmiri separatists not having > spelled out their agenda in greater detail as yet". UAM asks "Why > would one ever hope for anything different from a nation-state for > Kashmiris, as > far as those who don't fit the bill are concerned?" >> >> Even as UAM sees little hope for Kashmir "Azadi" not resulting > in "refugees" and "victims", he argues against the Kashmir > "Azadi" by saying "people -- should have learned long ago that > partitions are not the solution to people's inability to live together; > rather, the mindset that vests its faith in drawing easily-policed borders > is a > mindset that demands enemies. ……..A nation-state for Muslims thus becomes a > state virtually free of non-Muslims; a sub-national state where Hindu pride > is > honoured above all else becomes a state where non-Hindus must know their > place." >> >> UAM does not place any trust in the "outcomes" from the Kashmir > "Azadi" being any better than the situations in the "existing > Indian state" just on the the basis of "being told by the > movement" that the "movement will simply do a better job." > Sounding skeptical about the "secular" drumbeats of the "likes of > Yasin Malik" he sees them, even if accepted, as being no different from the > "Nehruvian show on a smaller stage" and sees no reason for believing > that they would "yield a better result" >> >> UAM reckons that a "Kashmir for Kashmiris" is in fact further > away from Nehru's India and more like the idea of Pakistan and Bangladesh. > He fears that "The promise of the Kashmiri movement combines both of these > nightmares." (The killings, displacements and creation of disadvantaged > groups). >> >> I just could not put my finger on it. UAM makes an intriguing statement > that both the Kashmir and Pakistan movements are "explicitly predicated on > a favoured community that is less than everyone who lives within the state's > borders." This has many possible interpretations but UAM makes it clear > that "Muslim majority" is not what he is talking about. >> >> UAM sees "second class citizenship" implicit in the Kashmir > "Azadi" and sees that as hypocritical when compared to (taken from his > Blog and is not included in the Outlook article) "nation-states where > "second-class" citizenship is explicit, where it is part of the very > logic of the state." >> >> UAM brings about a fascinating distinction between Nation States where > some are better than the others although he considers them all accountable > in > the "moral responsibility for the horrors it perpetrates" and > "all of them problematic, all of them complicit in cruelty" >> >> UAM finds more complicit and more problematic the group of Nation States > like "Germany, Switzerland, Italy, Pakistan, and, based on the logic of > the movements, the would-be nation-states of Kashmir or Khalistan" since > they are "premised on explicit notions of religion, language, > ethnicity" >> >> Against them he finds better the group of Nation States like "the > contemporary United States, Brazil, South Africa, and, yes, India". As UAM > puts it "Theoretically, one does not need to be other than "wholly > Bengali", "wholly Tamil", or "wholly Muslim" in order > to be utterly Indian; one cannot say the same of Pakistan and its Hindus > citizens, and the religious colour of the Kashmiri movement means it is > almost > inconceivable that this won't be true of an independent Kashmir as well > (even leaving aside the obvious ethnic dimension)." >> >> I have reproduced much of what was written by UAM. My purpose was to lay > down a structure (hopefully without misrepresenting what UAM said/meant) > that > would lead to the asking of some questions which I think are important in > connection with the "Kashmir Azadi" and for which I invite serious and > sober comments/answers: >> >> 1. When "Azadi" is spoken about in connection with Kashmir, what > is the geography of that "Kashmir"? >> >> 2. The 'contours of the movement' and 'elements of Azadi' > in Indian Controlled Kashmir are fairly well know even if not well > understood. > If the "geography" of the Kashmir "Azadi" covers the > 'erstwhile Princely State of Jammu and Kashmir as it stood > Pre-1947-Partition' then what are the 'contours of the movement' and > the 'elements of Azadi' in Pakistan Controlled Kashmir? What are the > synergies between the two? When and How will the two merge? >> >> 3. If the Kashmir "Azadi" does not cover Pakistan Controlled > Kashmir, Why not? >> >> 4. Will the Kashmir "Azadi" lead to a "New Country"? >> >> 5. How will this New Nation State be better than the Indian Nation State > as far as Indian Controlled Kashmir is concerned? What will make it better? >> >> 6. What will the Constitution (briefly) of this New Country be? >> >> 7. On what specific points will the Constitution of this New Country be > different from the Constitution of India? In what specific aspects will the > Constitution of this New Country be better than the Constitution of India? >> >> >> Kshmendra Kaul >> >> >> --- On Thu, 9/11/08, Jeebesh wrote: >> >> From: Jeebesh >> Subject: [Reader-list] The Full text... >> To: "Sarai Reader-list" >> Date: Thursday, September 11, 2008, 7:50 PM >> >> > http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20080904&fname=umair&sid=1 >> >> >> The Azadi We Need >> >> The azadi demanded by the Kashmiri movement, and used by Roy as a >> rallying cry, is not the answer. The freedom we need is azadi from the >> mindset that thinks of peoples and communities only in terms of nation- >> states; and equally, an azadi that demands that the Indian state >> honour its promise, to itself and to us. >> >> Umair Ahmed Muhajir >> >> Towards the end of her impassioned piece calling for azadi for >> Kashmir, Arundhati Roy pauses to reflect on what might follow azadi in >> Kashmir, wondering what an independent Kashmir might mean, including >> what the independence demanded by the state's Muslim majority might >> mean for the state's religious or other minorities. She does well not >> to linger, because the thought experiment illustrates precisely what >> is most problematic about "national movements", namely that they > are >> >> unable to think the political except through the prism of nation-states. >> National movements, that is to say, see themselves as nation-states-in- >> waiting, and do not see any political horizon beyond that of the >> nation-state. So was it with the Indian national movement, and its >> inability to think the difference that might have been capacious >> enough to house the country's Muslim-majority regions; so it >> definitely was with the Muslim League and its two-nation theory, even >> more wedded to the siren song of European-style nationalism >> transplanted to a colonial setting; and so it is with the > "copycat" >> nationalisms that have followed, be it Kashmir, or Punjab, or >> Nagaland. The failure to imagine a nation-state different from the >> traditional European model, the shoe-horning of Indian communitarian >> identities, into models conceived with the likes of Germany and >> England in mind, paved the way for the catastrophes of partition. The >> "belated" nationalisms of the post-partition sub-continent >> demonstrate >> the truth of Marx's depressing observation, namely that we learn from >> history that we do not learn from history. >> The point is worth making given Roy's trenchant critiques of the >> Indian state (in the context of Kashmir, but not only of Kashmir; her >> essay on the Indian state and dams, The Greater Common Good, is >> astonishingly powerful). That is, much of Roy's critique -- of the >> Indian state's indifference, its callousness, its inhumanity, its >> cruelty -- is (or certainly ought to be) animated not by her target's >> Indianness, but by the fact that it is a nation-state, and as such, >> does what nation-states do: in the final analysis, sacrifice humanity >> in the service of a larger political project. The distinction is an >> important one, because nothing in the Kashmiri independence movement >> suggests that it will throw up anything different; indeed given that >> the movement aims at a traditional nation-state just like all the >> others, I submit that it cannot yield a different result. Minority >> rights? Justice for different communities, and between genders? The >> outcomes will be better than they are now, we are told by the >> movement, not because the aims are different from those of the >> existing Indian state, but because the movement will simply do a >> better job. >> >> I am skeptical, and not because of the identity (religious or >> otherwise) of those who comprise the Kashmiri independence movement; I >> am skeptical because the aim of that movement is congenitally >> incapable of producing a result that is "better" in some cosmic > sense >> >> -- at most the identities of those disadvantaged will shift, as new >> disfavoured minorities, new "outsiders", new > "insiders", >> and new >> identity policemen are created. Roy is too sophisticated not to see >> this, butdoesn't bother to delve into it, pretending that this is >> merely a question of the Kashmiri separatists not having spelled out >> their agenda in greater detail as yet. >> >> >> It is not: over half a century ago, Hannah Arendt wrote (in The >> Origins of Totalitarianism) of the masses of refugees and victims that >> seemed to accompany the birth of every new nation-state, and nothing >> has changed, not in the age of South Ossetia, Kosovo, Rwanda, ad >> nauseum. >> >> >> Certainly, those of us from the sub-continent should be especially >> wary of political projects that promise us clean solutions to >> intractable political problems: we live with the legacies of the >> bloodbaths of the 1940s, not to mention innumerable later, > "lesser" >> massacres. By all accounts, the leaders of the new nation-states of >> India and Pakistan were caught by surprise by the scale of the >> violence in 1947; they had evidently internalized the logic of >> colonialism, pursuant to which communitarian difference presents a >> political "problem" that may be solved by means of creative >> cartography and judicious population transfers. Conceptual neatness is >> one of the hallmarks of the colonial mindset (thinking of Cyril >> Radcliffe, who could doubt it?). >> Unfortunately, reality is anything but, and the sub-continent's >> leaders -- and, even more importantly, its people -- should have >> learned long ago that partitions are not the solution to people's >> inability to live together; rather, the mindset that vests its faith >> in drawing easily-policed borders is a mindset that demands enemies. >> It is a mindset that, in the final analysis, demands that facts on the >> ground correspond to the political project of the nation-state (and >> not the other way around). A nation-state for Muslims thus becomes a >> state virtually free of non-Muslims; a sub-national state where Hindu >> pride is honoured above all else becomes a state where non-Hindus must >> know their place. >> >> Why would one ever hope for anything different from a nation-state for >> Kashmiris, as far as those who don't fit the bill are concerned? >> Certainly the region is not short of candidates for stigmatisation >> (some of this is because India is fantastically diverse; some of it is >> because nation-states are rather gifted at manufacturing >> "problematic" >> identities): Buddhists; Shiites; Gujjars; perhaps even Sunni Muslims >> who will be deemed insufficiently supportive of the independence >> movement (the last is hardly far-fetched, as even a casual glance at >> the history of Algeria or the Khalistan movement, or Kashmir itself >> during the 1990s, makes clear). Indeed, several hundred thousand >> Kashmiri Pandits have already been driven off, and it is hard not to >> see in them a harbinger of more to come. >> >> The above might seem like an odd place from which to maintain a >> defense of India vis-à-vis Kashmir. It is, on the contrary, a natural >> vantage point: the idea of an independent Kashmir for Kashmiris must >> be resisted precisely because, as the experience of the once-colonised >> has amply illustrated, nation-states are appallingly inhuman. Equally, >> however, they are not all inhuman in precisely the same way; nor are >> they all equally inhuman, by which I simply mean that they are not all >> equally incapable of accommodating human difference, whether >> communitarian or otherwise. The Germany of 2008 is manifestly not the >> Germany of 1938; but nor does the Germany of 2008 accommodate ethnic >> minorities as comfortably as the United States does. >> None of this relieves any state of moral responsibility for the >> horrors it perpetrates; but in order to agitate against horrors, one >> must first understand what they are. >> >> >> >> >> And within the range of nation-states on offer -- all of them >> problematic, all of them complicit in cruelty -- it is apparent to me >> that those premised on explicit notions of religion, language, >> ethnicity, blood in some sense, are more problematic, more complicit, >> than those with far more modest litmus tests. The contemporary United >> States, Brazil, South Africa, and, yes, India, are among the latter >> group of nation-states; Germany, Switzerland, Italy, Pakistan, and, >> based on the logic of the movements, the would-be nation-states of >> Kashmir or Khalistan, are not. Theoretically, one does not need to be >> other than "wholly Bengali", "wholly Tamil", or >> "wholly Muslim" in >> order to be utterly Indian; one cannot say the same of Pakistan and >> its Hindus citizens, and the religious colour of the Kashmiri movement >> means it is almost inconceivable that this won't be true of an >> independent Kashmir as well (even leaving aside the obvious ethnic >> dimension). >> >> >> Indeed, even if one were to take the likes of Yasin Malik at their >> word, they promise no more than Jawaharlal Nehru did, that is to say a >> secular state where all who live in Kashmir, of whatever ethnicity or >> religious persuasion, will be equal in the eyes of the state; why and >> how could such a project -- essentially the same Nehruvian show on a >> smaller stage -- yield a better result? On the contrary, all the signs >> are that an independent Kashmir would be more like Pakistan than >> India: not because both are Muslim majority (that is irrelevant to the >> point I am making), but because both movements are explicitly >> predicated on a favoured community that is less than everyone who >> lives within the state's borders. >> >> Why does any of this matter? Because nation-states where "second- >> class" citizenship is implicit -- think the United States prior to > de- >> segregation; I assume Roy would include India; but really one could >> argue some are always more equal than others in all nation-states -- >> can be called out on their failures. Such nation-states are guilty of >> hypocrisy, but hypocrisy is not the worst sin; indeed hypocrisy, by >> opening up a gap between theory and practice, between promise and >> reality, makes it possible to hold a mirror up to the state, to try >> and compel it to honour its own promise to itself; and enables us to >> argue that the nation-state is only imperfectly itself until it takes >> a good long look in that mirror. >> In short, the point is that while the Jim Crow South is unforgiveable, >> the civil rights movement and Martin Luther King's "I Have a >> Dream" >> moment are possible in a USA where actual practice made a mockery of >> the nation-state's constitutional guarantees of equal protection under >> the laws; they would not be possible in the face of apartheid South >> Africa, which could not be reformed, simply destroyed. It is far more >> difficult, perhaps insurmountably so, to call the nation-state to task >> where it has promised and can promise nothing different than what it >> offers (one can rebel and try and dismantle the state, but one can't >> make it see the problem): beyond a point, a "Pakistan for >> Pakistanis", >> that is to say for Pakistanis of all religious persuasions, would make >> no sense, and would undermine the national idea (substitute >> "ethnicities" for "religious communities" and the idea > of >> Pakistan >> becomes more flexible; it should come as no surprise that the movement >> for ethnic justice, greater federalism, and rights for smaller >> provinces, has far more legs in Pakistan than any movement for the >> rights of religious minorities; ethnicity illustrates the potential >> flexibility, but also the limits, of the idea of Pakistan; and even >> with respect to ethnicity, the difference of even a Bengali Muslim >> identity that was deemed "too Hindu" could not be accommodated > within >> >> the state). >> >> >> A "Kashmir for Kashmiris" is far closer to the idea of Pakistan > than >> >> to the Nehru's India, and perhaps closest of all to Bangladesh, >> seeking to compress both 1947 and 1971 in one secessionist moment. Roy >> would do well to remember the "Biharis" stranded in refugee > camps in >> >> Bangladesh since 1971, Muslim but not Bangladeshi enough; and she >> herself mentions the 1971 genocide of Bengalis by the Pakistani army, >> who were not Muslim enough. The promise of the Kashmiri movement >> combines both of these nightmares. >> >> None of this is aboutthe decency or lack thereof of Mirwaiz Farooq, >> or Yasin Malik, or anyone else. The question isn't whether these are >> or are not upstanding politicians who genuinely believe that Kashmir >> belongs to all Kashmiris, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, or Sikh, or not; >> the more important question concerns the logic of what they let loose >> in the world (more accurately, the logic that they and would-be >> nationalists of all stripes have attempted to replicate for decades). >> The azadi demanded by the Kashmiri movement, and used by Roy as a >> rallying cry, is not the answer to that question; the freedom we need >> is azadi from the mindset that thinks of peoples and communities only >> in terms of nation-states; and equally, an azadi that demands that the >> Indian state honour its promise, to itself and to us. >> The nation-state as political Alpha and Omega was problematic in its >> European birthplaces to begin with; to continue to cling to it as the >> last best hope of ethnic or religious minorities in milieus like >> India's (or Africa's, or the Balkans'; pick your poison), in > the >> wake >> of the man-made disasters that have befallen us over the last century, >> is nothing short of bankrupt. >> >> >> >> >> >> Umair Ahmed Muhajir is based in New York City. When not blogging at >> qalandari.blogspot.com or contributing to naachgaana.com, he makes a >> living as a lawyer. >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in >> the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From indersalim at gmail.com Wed Sep 17 00:49:52 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 00:49:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] An Essay from the archive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47e122a70809161219t58e94d30yd1ab4e0db5a99023@mail.gmail.com> when i started reading the essay, i did not realize where i was, but sooner i saw myself in a plane leaving, let us say London, and i kept on seeing the whole of europe, its land, sea and history from above. When it touched Marx , the plane was already over an unknown territory with only spectacle of lights visible below. It exposed poets even who are consumed in Nation Sate machine, like i was tied with my safety belt, no where to go. but it indeed when the palne landed in Delhi, i had a poem like thing in my hand , which i will never forget "Don't you think a descendant of oppressed people is better off as a supermarket manager or police chief?" My answer is another question: What concentration camp manager, national executioner or torturer is not a descendant of oppressed people? thanks a lot for this essay, it was really urgent, i wish a copy of it is given to all the student in all the college to read at least once. love is On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 5:14 PM, Jeebesh wrote: > Fredy Perlman 1984 > The Continuing Appeal of Nationalism > > First published: in the Winter, 1984 Fifth Estate > http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/perlman-fredy/1984/nationalism.htm > > > > Nationalism was proclaimed dead several times during the present > century: > > > after the first world war, when the last empires of Europe, the > Austrian and the Turkish, were broken up into self-determined nations, > and no deprived nationalists remained, except the Zionists; > after the Bolshevik coup d'etat, when it was said that the > bourgeoisie's struggles for self-determination were henceforth > superseded by struggles of workingmen, who had no country; > after the military defeat of Fascist Italy and National Socialist > Germany, when the genocidal corollaries of nationalism had been > exhibited for all to see, when it was thought that nationalism as > creed and as practice was permanently discredited. > Yet forty years after the military defeat of Fascists and National > Socialists, we can see that nationalism did not only survive but was > born again, underwent a revival. Nationalism has been revived not only > by the so-called right, but also and primarily by the so- called left. > After the national socialist war, nationalism ceased to be confined to > conservatives, became the creed and practice of revolutionaries, and > proved itself to be the only revolutionary creed that actually worked. > > Leftist or revolutionary nationalists insist that their nationalism > has nothing in common with the nationalism of fascists and national > socialists, that theirs is a nationalism of the oppressed, that it > offers personal as well as cultural liberation. The claims of the > revolutionary nationalists have been broadcast to the world by the two > oldest continuing hierarchic institutions surviving into our times: > the Chinese State and, more recently, the Catholic Church. Currently > nationalism is being touted as a strategy, science and theology of > liberation, as a fulfilment of the Enlightenment's dictum that > knowledge is power, as a proven answer to the question "What Is to be > Done?" > > To challenge these claims, and to see them in a context, I have to ask > what nationalism is – not only the new revolutionary nationalism but > also the old conservative one. I cannot start by defining the term, > because nationalism is not a word with a static definition: it is a > term that covers a sequence of different historical experiences. I'll > start by giving a brief sketch of some of those experiences. > > According to a common (and manipulable) misconception, imperialism is > relatively recent, consists of the colonization of the entire world, > and is the last stage of capitalism. This diagnosis points to a > specific cure: nationalism is offered as the antidote to imperialism: > wars of national liberation are said to break up the capitalist empire. > > This diagnosis serves a purpose, but it does not describe any event or > situation. We come closer to the truth when we stand this conception > on its head and say that imperialism was the first stage of > capitalism, that the world was subsequently colonized by nation- > states, and that nationalism is the dominant, the current, and > (hopefully) the last stage of capitalism. The facts of the case were > not discovered yesterday; they are as familiar as the misconception > that denies them. > > It has been convenient, for various good reasons, to forget that, > until recent centuries, the dominant powers of Eurasia were not nation- > states but empires. A Celestial Empire ruled by the Ming dynasty, an > Islamic Empire ruled by the Ottoman dynasty and a Catholic Empire > ruled by the Hapsburg dynasty vied with each other for possession of > the known world. Of the three, the Catholics were not the first > imperialists but the last. The Celestial Empire of the Mings ruled > over most of eastern Asia and had dispatched vast commercial fleets > overseas a century before sea-borne Catholics invaded Mexico. > > The celebrants of the Catholic feat forget that, between 1420 and > 1430, Chinese imperial bureaucrat Cheng Ho commanded naval expeditions > of 70,000 men and sailed, not only to nearby Malaya, Indonesia and > Ceylon, but as far from home ports as the Persian Gulf, the Red Sea > and Africa. The celebrants of Catholic conquistadors also belittle the > imperial feats of the Ottomans, who conquered all but the westernmost > provinces of the former Roman Empire, ruled over North Africa, Arabia, > the Middle East and half of Europe, controlled the Mediterranean and > hammered on the gates of Vienna. The imperial Catholics set out > westward, beyond the boundaries of the known world, in order to escape > from encirclement. > > Nevertheless, it was the imperial Catholics who "discovered America," > and their genocidal destruction and plunder of their "discovery" > changed the balance of forces among Eurasia's empires. > > Would imperial Chinese or Turks have been less lethal had they > "discovered America"? All three empires regarded aliens as less than > human and therefore as legitimate prey. The Chinese considered others > barbarians; the Muslims and Catholics considered others unbelievers. > The term unbeliever is not as brutal as the term barbarian, since an > unbeliever ceases to be legitimate prey and becomes a full-fledged > human being by the simple act of converting to the true faith, whereas > a barbarian remains prey until she or he is made over by the civilizer. > > The term unbeliever, and the morality behind it, conflicted with the > practice of the Catholic invaders. The contradiction between > professions and acts was spotted by a very early critic, a priest > called Las Casas, who noted that the conversion ceremonies were > pretexts for separating and exterminating the unconverted, and that > the converts themselves were not treated as fellow Catholics but as > slaves. > > The critiques of Las Casas did little more than embarrass the Catholic > Church and Emperor. Laws were passed and investigators were > dispatched, but to little effect, because the two aims of the Catholic > expeditions, conversion and plunder, were contradictory. Most > churchmen reconciled themselves to saving the gold and damning the > souls. The Catholic Emperor increasingly depended on the plundered > wealth to pay for the imperial household, army, and for the fleets > that carried the plunder. > > Plunder continued to take precedence over conversion, but the > Catholics continued to be embarrassed. Their ideology was not > altogether suited to their practice. The Catholics made much of their > conquests of Aztecs and Incas, whom they described as empires with > institutions similar to those of the Hapsburg Empire and the religious > practices as demonic as those of the official enemy, the heathen > empire of the Ottoman Turks. But the Catholics did not make much of > the wars of extermination against communities that had neither > emperors nor standing armies. Such feats, although perpetrated > regularly, conflicted with the ideology and were less than heroic. > > The contradiction between the invaders' professions and their acts was > not resolved by the imperial Catholics. It was resolved by harbingers > of a new social form, the nation-state. Two harbingers appeared during > the same year, 1561, when one of the Emperor's overseas adventures > proclaimed his independence from the empire, and several of the > Emperor's bankers and provisioners launched a war of independence. > > The overseas adventurer, Lope de Aguirre, failed to mobilize support > and was executed. > > The Emperor's bankers and provisioners mobilized the inhabitants of > several imperial provinces and succeeded in severing the provinces > from the empire (provinces which were later called Holland). > > These two events were not yet struggles of national liberation. They > were harbingers of things to come. They were also reminders of things > past. In the bygone Roman Empire, Praetorian guards had been engaged > to protect the Emperor; the guards had assumed ever more of the > Emperor's functions and had eventually wielded the imperial power > instead of the Emperor. In the Arabic Islamic Empire, the Caliph had > engaged Turkish bodyguards to protect his person; the Turkish guards, > like the earlier Praetorians, had assumed ever more of the Caliph's > functions and had eventually taken over the imperial palace as well as > the imperial office. > > Lope de Aguirre and the Dutch grandees were not the Hapsburg monarch's > bodyguards, but the Andean colonial adventurer and the Dutch > commercial and financial houses did wield important imperial > functions. These rebels, like the earlier Roman and Turkish guards, > wanted to free themselves of the spiritual indignity and material > burden of serving the Emperor; they already wielded the Emperor's > powers; the Emperor was nothing more to them than a parasite. > > Colonial adventurer Aguirre was apparently inept as a rebel; his time > had not yet come. > > The Dutch grandees were not inept, and their time had come. They did > not overthrow the empire; they rationalized it. The Dutch commercial > and financial houses already possessed much of the New World's wealth; > they had received it as payment for provisioning the Emperor's fleets, > armies and household. They now set out to plunder colonies in their > own name and for their own benefit, unshackled by a parasitic > overlord. And since they were not Catholics but Calvinist Protestants, > they were not embarrassed by any contradiction between professions and > acts. They made no profession of saving souls. Their Calvinism told > them that an inscrutable God had saved or damned all souls at the > beginning of Time and no Dutch priest could alter God's plan. > > The Dutch were not crusaders; they confined themselves to unheroic, > humorless, and businesslike plunder, calculated and regularized; the > plundering fleets departed and returned on schedule. The fact that the > plundered aliens were unbelievers became less important than the fact > that they were not Dutchmen. > > West Eurasian forerunners of nationalism coined the term savages. This > term was a synonym for the east Eurasian Celestial Empire's term > barbarians. Both terms designated human beings as legitimate prey. > > During the following two centuries, the invasions, subjugations and > expropriations initiated by the Hapsburgs were imitated by other > European royal houses. > > Seen through the lenses of nationalist historians, the initial > colonizers as well as their later imitators look like nations: Spain, > Holland, England, France. But seen from a vantage point in the past, > the colonizing powers are Hapsburgs, Tudors, Stuarts, Bourbons, > Oranges – namely dynasties identical to the dynastic families that had > been feuding for wealth and power ever since the fall of the western > Roman empire. The invaders can be seen from both vantage points > because a transition was taking place. The entities were no longer > mere feudal estates, but they were not yet full-fledged nations; they > already possessed some, but not yet all, the attributes of a nation- > state. The most notable missing element was the national army. Tudors > and Bourbons already manipulated the Englishness or Frenchness of > their subjects, especially during wars against another monarch's > subjects. But neither Scots and Irishmen, not Corsicans and > Provencals, were recruited to fight and die for "the love of their > country." War was an onerous feudal burden, a corvée; the only > patriots were patriots of Eldorado. > > The tenets of what was going to become the nationalist creed did not > appeal to the ruling dynasts, who clung to their own tried and tested > tenets. The new tenets appealed to the dynast's higher servants, his > money-lenders, spice-vendors, military suppliers and colony- > plunderers. These people, like Lope de Aguirre and the Dutch grandees, > like earlier Roman and Turkish guards, wielded key functions yet > remained servants. Many if not most of them burned to shake off the > indignity and the burden, to rid themselves of the parasitic overlord, > to carry on the exploitation of countrymen and the plunder of > colonials in their own name and for their own benefit. > > Later known as the bourgeoisie or the middle class, these people had > become rich and powerful since the days of the first westward- bound > fleets. A portion of their wealth had come from the plundered > colonies, as payment for the services they had sold to the Emperor; > this sum of wealth would later be called a primitive accumulation of > capital. Another portion of their wealth had come from the plunder of > their own local countrymen and neighbors by a method later known as > capitalism; the method was not altogether new, but it became very > widespread after the middle classes got their hands on the New World's > silver and gold. > > These middle classes wielded important powers, but they were not yet > experienced in wielding the central political power. In England they > overthrew a monarch and proclaimed a commonwealth but, fearing that > the popular energies they had mobilized against the upper class could > turn against the middle class, they soon restored another monarch of > the same dynastic house. > > Nationalism did not really come into its own until the late 1700s when > two explosions, thirteen years apart, reversed the relative standing > of the two upper classes and permanently changed the political > geography of the globe. In 1776, colonial merchants and adventurers re- > enacted Aguirre's feat of proclaiming their independence from the > ruling overseas dynast, outdid their predecessor by mobilizing their > fellow-settlers, and succeeded in severing themselves from the > Hanoverian British Empire. And in 1789, enlightened merchants and > scribes outdid their Dutch forerunners by mobilizing, not a few > outlying provinces, but the entire subject population, by overthrowing > and slaying the ruling Bourbon monarch, and by remaking all feudal > bonds into national bonds. These two events marked the end of an era. > Henceforth even the surviving dynasts hastily or gradually became > nationalists, and the remaining royal estates took on ever more of the > attributes of nation-states. > > The two eighteenth century revolutions were very different, and they > contributed different and even conflicting elements to the creed and > practice of nationalism. I do not intend to analyze these events here, > but only to remind the reader of some of the elements. > > Both rebellions successfully broke the bonds of fealty to a monarchic > house, and both ended with the establishment of capitalist nation- > states, but between the first act and the last they had little in > common. The main animators of both revolts were familiar with the > rationalistic doctrines of the Enlightenment, but the self-styled > Americans confined themselves to political problems, largely to the > problem of establishing a state machinery that could take up where > King George left off. Many of the French went much further; they posed > the problem of restructuring not only the state but all of society; > they challenged not only the bond of subject to monarch, but also the > bond of slave to master, a bond that remained sacred to the Americans. > Both groups were undoubtedly familiar with Jean-Jacques Rousseau's > observation that human beings were born free, yet everywhere were > bound in chains, but the French understood the chains more profoundly > and made a greater effort to break them. > > As influenced by rationalistic doctrines as Rousseau himself had been, > French revolutionaries tried to apply social reason to the human > environment in the same way that natural reason, or science, was > starting to be applied to the natural environment. Rousseau had worked > at his desk; he had tried to establish social justice on paper, by > entrusting human affairs to an entity that embodied the general will. > The revolutionaries agitated to establish social justice not only on > paper, but in the midst of mobilized and armed human beings, many of > them enraged, most of them poor. > > Rousseau's abstract entity took the concrete form of a Committee of > Public Safety (or Public Health), a police organization that > considered itself the embodiment of the general will. The virtuous > committee members conscientiously applied the findings of reason to > human affairs. They considered themselves the nation's surgeons. They > carved their personal obsessions into society by means of the state's > razor blade. > > The application of science to the environment took the form of > systematic terror. The instrument of Reason and Justice was the > guillotine. > > The Terror decapitated the former rulers and then turned on the > revolutionaries. > > Fear stimulated a reaction that swept away the Terror as well as the > Justice. The mobilized energy of bloodthirsty patriots was sent > abroad, to impose enlightenment on foreigners by force, to expand the > nation into an empire. The provisioning of national armies was far > more lucrative than the provisioning of feudal armies ever had been, > and former revolutionaries became rich and powerful members of the > middle class, which was now the top class, the ruling class. The > terror as well as the wars bequeathed a fateful legacy to the creed > and practice of later nationalisms. > > The legacy of the American revolution was of an altogether different > kind. The Americans were less concerned with justice, more concerned > with property. > > The settler-invaders on the northern continent's eastern shore needed > George of Hanover no more urgently then Lope de Aguirre had needed > Philip of Hapsburg. Or rather, the rich and powerful among the > settlers needed King George's apparatus to protect their wealth, but > not to gain it. If they could organize a repressive apparatus on their > own, they would not need King George at all. > > Confident of their ability to launch an apparatus of their own, the > colonial slave-holders, land-speculators, produce-exporters and > bankers found the King's taxes and acts intolerable. The most > intolerable of the King's acts was the act that temporarily banned > unauthorized incursions into the lands of the continent's original > inhabitants; the King's advisers had their eyes on the animal furs > supplied by indigenous hunters; the revolutionary land-speculators had > theirs on the hunters' lands. > > Unlike Aguirre, the federated colonizers of the north succeeded in > establishing their own independent repressive apparatus, and they did > this by stirring up a minimum of cravings for justice; their aim was > to overthrow the King's power, not their own. Rather than rely > excessively on their less fortunate fellow-settlers or backwoods > squatters, not to speak of their slaves, these revolutionaries relied > on mercenaries and on indispensable aid from the Bourbon monarch who > would be overthrown a few years later by more virtuous revolutionaries. > > The North American colonizers broke the traditional bonds of fealty > and feudal obligation but, unlike the French, they only gradually > replaced the traditional bonds with bonds of patriotism and > nationhood. They were not quite a nation; their reluctant mobilization > of the colonial countryside had not fused them into one, and the multi- > lingual, multi-cultural and socially divided underlying population > resisted such a fusion. The new repressive apparatus was not tried and > tested, and it did not command the undivided loyalty of the underlying > population, which was not yet patriotic. Something else was needed. > Slave-masters who had overthrown their king feared that their slaves > could similarly overthrow the masters; the insurrection in Haiti made > this fear less than hypothetical. And although they no longer feared > being pushed into the sea by the continent's indigenous inhabitants, > the traders and speculators worried about their ability to thrust > further into the continent's interior. > > The American settler-invaders had recourse to an instrument that was > not, like the guillotine, a new invention, but that was just as > lethal. This instrument would later be called Racism, and it would > become embedded in nationalist practice. Racism, like later products > of practical Americans, was a pragmatic principle; its content was not > important; what mattered was the fact that it worked. > > Human beings were mobilized in terms of their lowest and most > superficial common denominator, and they responded. People who had > abandoned their villages and families, who were forgetting their > languages and losing their cultures, who were all but depleted of > their sociability, were manipulated into considering their skin color > a substitute for all they had lost. They were made proud of something > that was neither a personal feat nor even, like language, a personal > acquisition. They were fused into a nation of white men. (White women > and children existed only as scalped victims, as proofs of the > bestiality of the hunted prey.) The extent of the depletion is > revealed by the nonentities the white men shared with each other: > white blood, white thoughts, and membership in a white race. Debtors, > squatters and servants, as white men, had everything in common with > bankers, land speculators and plantation owners, nothing in common > with Redskins, Blackskins or Yellowskins. Fused by such a principle, > they could also be mobilized by it, turned into white mobs. Lynch > mobs, "Indian fighters." > > Racism had initially been one among several methods of mobilizing > colonial armies, and although it was exploited more fully in America > than it ever had been before, it did not supplant the other methods > but rather supplemented them. The victims of the invading pioneers > were still described as unbelievers, as heathen. But the pioneers, > like the earlier Dutch, were largely Protestant Christians, and they > regarded heathenism as something to be punished, not remedied. The > victims also continued to be designated as savages, cannibals and > primitives, but these terms, too, ceased to be diagnoses of conditions > that could be remedied, and tended to become synonyms of non-white, a > condition that could not be remedied. Racism was an ideology perfectly > suited to a practice of enslavement and extermination. > > The lynch-mob approach, the ganging-up on victims defined as inferior, > appealed to bullies whose humanity was stunted and who lacked any > notion of fair play. But this approach did not appeal to everyone. > American businessmen, part hustlers and part confidence men, always > had something for everyone. For the numerous Saint Georges with some > notion of honor and great thirst for heroism, the enemy was depicted > somewhat differently; for them there were nations as rich and powerful > as their own in the transmontane woodlands and on the shores of the > Great Lakes. > > The celebrants of the heroic feats of imperial Spaniards had found > empires in central Mexico and on top of the Andes. The celebrants of > nationalist American heroes found nations; they transformed desperate > resistances of anarchic villagers into international conspiracies > masterminded by military archons such as General Pontiac and General > Tecumseh; they peopled the woodlands with formidable national leaders, > efficient general staffs, and armies of uncountable patriotic troops; > they projected their own repressive structures into the unknown; they > saw an exact copy of themselves, with all the colors reversed – > something like a photographic negative. The enemy thus became an equal > in terms of structure, power and aims. War against such an enemy was > not only fair play; it was a dire necessity, a matter of life and > death. The enemy's other attributes – the heathenism, the savagery, > the cannibalism – made the tasks of expropriating, enslaving and > exterminating all the more urgent, made these feats all the more heroic. > > The repertory of the nationalist program was now more or less > complete. This statement might baffle a reader who cannot yet see any > "real nations" in the field. The United States was still a collection > of multilingual, multi-religious and multi-cultural "ethnicities," and > the French nation had overflowed its boundaries and turned itself into > a Napoleonic empire. The reader might be trying to apply a definition > of a nation as an organized territory consisting of people who share a > common language, religion and customs, or at least one of the three. > Such a definition, clear, pat and static, is not a description of the > phenomenon but an apology for it, a justification. The phenomenon was > not a static definition but a dynamic process. The common language, > religion and customs, like the white blood of the American colonizers, > were mere pretexts, instruments for mobilizing armies. The culmination > of the process was not an enshrinement of the commonalities, but a > depletion, a total loss of language, religion and customs; the > inhabitants of a nation spoke the language of capital, worshipped on > the altar of the state and confined their customs to those permitted > by the national police. > > Nationalism is the opposite of imperialism only in the realm of > definitions. In practice, nationalism was a methodology for conducting > the empire of capital. > > The continual increase of capital, often referred to as material > progress, economic development or industrialization, was the main > activity of the middle classes, the so-called bourgeoisie, because > capital was what they owned, it was their property; the upper classes > owned estates. > > The discovery of new worlds of wealth had enormously enriched these > middle classes, but had also made them vulnerable. The kings and > nobles who initially gathered the new world's plundered wealth > resented losing all but a few trophies to their middle class > merchants. This could not be helped. The wealth did not arrive in > usable forms; the merchants supplied the king with things he could > use, in exchange for the plundered treasures. Even so, monarchs who > saw themselves grow poor while their merchants grew rich were not > above using their armed retainers to plunder the wealthy merchants. > Consequently the middle classes suffered continual injuries under the > old regime – injuries to their property. The king's army and police > were not reliable protectors of middle class property, and the > powerful merchants, who already operated the business of the empire, > took measures to put an end to the instability; they took the politics > in hand as well. They could have hired private armies, and they often > did. But as soon as instruments for mobilizing national armies and > national police forces appeared on the horizon, the injured > businessmen had recourse to them. The main virtue of a national armed > force is that it guarantees that a patriotic servant will war > alongside his own boss against an enemy boss's servant. > > The stability assured by a national repressive apparatus gave the > owners something like a hothouse in which their capital could grow, > increase, multiply. The term "grow" and its corollaries come from the > capitalists' own vocabulary. These people think of a unit of capital > as a grain or seed which they invest in fertile soil. In spring they > see a plant grow from each seed. In summer they harvest so many seeds > from each plant that, after paying for the soil, sunshine and rain, > they still have more seeds than they had initially. The following year > they enlarge their field, and gradually the whole countryside becomes > improved. In reality, the initial "grains" are money; the sunshine and > rain are the expended energies of laborers; the plants are factories, > workshops and mines, the harvested fruits are commodities, bits of > processed world; and the excess or additional grains, the profits, are > emoluments which the capitalist keeps for himself instead of dividing > them up among the workers. > > The process as a whole consisted of the processing of natural > substances into saleable items or commodities, and of the > incarceration of wage workers in the processing plants. > > The marriage of Capital with Science was responsible for the great > leap forward into what we live in today. Pure scientists discovered > the components into which the natural environment could be decomposed; > investors placed their bets on the various methods of decomposition; > applied scientists or managers saw to it that the wage workers in > their charge carried the project through. Social scientists sought > ways to make the workers less human, more efficient and machine-like. > Thanks to science, capitalists were able to transform much of the > natural environment into a processed world, an artifice, and to reduce > most human beings into efficient tenders of the artifice. > > The process of capitalist production was analyzed and criticized by > many philosophers and poets, most notably by Karl Marx [1], whose > critiques animated, and continue to animate, militant social > movements. Marx had a significant blind spot; most of his disciples, > and many militants who were not his disciples,built their platforms > on that blind spot. Marx was an enthusiastic supporter of the > bourgeoisie's struggle for liberation from feudal bonds. Who was not > an enthusiast in those days? He, who observed that the ruling ideas of > an epoch were the ideas of the ruling class, shared many of the ideas > of the newly empowered middle class. He was an enthusiast of the > Enlightenment, of rationalism, of material progress. It was Marx who > insightfully pointed out that every time a worker reproduced his labor > power, every minute he devoted to his assigned task, he enlarged the > material and social apparatus that dehumanized him. Yet the same Marx > was an enthusiast for the application of science to production. > > Marx made a thorough analysis of the production process as an > exploitation of labor, but he made only cursory and reluctant comments > about the prerequisite for capitalist production, and the initial > capital that made the process possible. [2] Without the initial > capital, there could have been no investments, no production, no great > leap forward. This prerequisite was analyzed by the early Soviet > Russian marxist Preobrazhensky, who borrowed several insights from the > Polish marxist Rosa Luxemburg to formulate his theory of primitive > accumulation. [3] By primitive, Preobrazhensky meant the basement of > the capitalist edifice, the foundation, the prerequisite. This > prerequisite cannot emerge from the capitalist production process > itself, if that process is not yet under way. It must, and does, come > from outside the production process. It comes from the plundered > colonies. It comes from the expropriated and exterminated populations > of the colonies. In earlier days, when there were no overseas > colonies, the first capital, the prerequisite for capitalist > production, had been squeezed out of internal colonies, out of > plundered peasants whose lands were enclosed and crops requisitioned, > out of expelled Jews and Muslims whose possessions were expropriated. > > The primitive or preliminary accumulation of capital is not something > that happened once, in the distant past, and never after. It is > something that continues to accompany the capitalist production > process, and is an integral part of it. The process described by Marx > is responsible for the regular profits are periodically destroyed by > crises endemic to the system; new injections of preliminary capital > are the only known cure to the crises. Without an ongoing primitive > accumulation of capital, the production process would stop; each > crisis would tend to become permanent. > > Genocide, the rationally calculated extermination of human populations > designated as legitimate prey, has not been an aberration in an > otherwise peaceful march of progress. Genocide has been a prerequisite > of that progress. This is why national armed forces were indispensable > to the wielders of capital. These forces did not only protect the > owners of capital from the insurrectionary wrath of their own > exploited wage workers. These forces also captured the holy grail, the > magic lantern, the preliminary capital, by battering the gates of > resisting or unresisting outsiders, by looting, deporting and murdering. > > The footprints of the national armies are the traces of the march of > progress. These patriotic armies were, and still are, the seventh > wonder of the world. In them, the wolf lay alongside the lamb, the > spider alongside the fly. In them, exploited workers were the chums of > exploiters, indebted peasants the chums of creditors, suckers the > chums of hustlers in a companionship stimulated not by love but by > hatred – hatred of potential sources of preliminary capital designated > as unbelievers, savages, inferior races. > > Human communities as variegated in their ways and beliefs as birds are > in feathers were invaded, despoiled and at last exterminated beyond > imagination's grasp. The clothes and artefacts of the vanished > communities were gathered up as trophies and displayed in museums as > additional traces of the march of progress; the extinct beliefs and > ways became the curiosities of yet another of the invaders' many > sciences. The expropriated fields, forests and animals were garnered > as bonanzas, as preliminary capital, as the precondition for the > production process that was to turn the fields into farms, the trees > into lumber, the animals into hats, the minerals into munitions, the > human survivors into cheap labor. Genocide was, and still is, the > precondition, the cornerstone and ground work of the military- > industrial complexes, of the processed environments, of the worlds of > offices and parking lots. > > Nationalism was so perfectly suited to its double task, the > domestication of workers and the despoliation of aliens, that it > appealed to everyone – everyone, that is, who wielded or aspired to > wield a portion of capital. > > During the nineteenth century, especially during its second half, > every owner of investable capital discovered that he had roots among > the mobilizable countryfolk who spoke his mother's tongue and > worshipped his father's gods. The fervor of such a nationalist was > transparently cynical, since he was the countryman who no longer had > roots among his mother's or father's kin: he found his salvation in > his savings, prayed to his investments and spoke the language of cost > accounting. But he had learned, from Americans and Frenchmen, that > although he could not mobilize the countryfolk as loyal servants, > clients and customers, he could mobilize them as loyal fellow- > Catholics, Orthodox or Protestants. Languages, religions and customs > became welding materials for the construction of nation-states. > > The welding materials were means, not ends. The purpose of the > national entities was not to develop languages, religions or customs, > but to develop national economies, to turn the countryfolk into > workers and soldiers, to turn the motherland into mines and factories, > to turn dynastic estates into capitalist enterprises. Without the > capital, there could be no munitions or supplies, no national army, no > nation. > > Savings and investments, market research and cost accounting, the > obsessions of the rationalistic former middle classes, became the > ruling obsessions. These rationalistic obsessions became not only > sovereign but also exclusive. Individuals who enacted other > obsessions, irrational ones, were put away in madhouses, asylums. > > The nations usually were but need no longer have been monotheistic; > the former god or gods had lost their importance except as welding > materials. The nations were mono-obsessive, and if monotheism served > the ruling obsession, then it too was mobilized. > > World War I marked the end of one phase of the nationalizing process, > the phase that had begun with the American and French revolutions, the > phase that had been announced much earlier by the declaration of > Aguirre and the revolt of the Dutch grandees. The conflicting claims > of old and newly-constituted nations were in fact the causes of that > war. Germany, Italy and Japan, as well as Greece, Serbia and colonial > Latin America, had already taken on most of the attributes of their > nationalistic predecessors, had become national empires, monarchies > and republics, and the more powerful of the new arrivals aspired to > take on the main missing attribute, the colonial empire. During that > war, all the mobilizable components of the two remaining dynastic > empires, the Ottoman and the Hapsburg, constituted themselves into > nations. When bourgeoisies with different languages and religions, > such as Turks and Armenians, claimed the same territory, the weaker > were treated like so-called American Indians; they were exterminated. > National Sovereignty and Genocide were – and still are – corollaries. > > Common language and religion appear to be corollaries of nationhood, > but only because of an optical illusion. As welding materials, > languages and religions were used when they served their purpose, > discarded when they did not. Neither multi-lingual Switzerland nor > multi-religious Yugoslavia were banned from the family of nations. The > shapes of noses and the color of hair could also have been used to > mobilize patriots – and later were. The shared heritages, roots and > commonalities had to satisfy only one criterion, the criterion of > American-style pragmatic reason: did they work? Whatever worked was > used. The shared traits were important, not because of their cultural, > historical or philosophical content, but because they were useful for > organizing a police to protect the national property and for > mobilizing an army to plunder the colonies. > > Once a nation was constituted, human beings who lived on the national > territory but did not possess the national traits could be transformed > into internal colonies, namely into sources of preliminary capital. > Without preliminary capital, no nation could become a great nation, > and nations that aspired to greatness but lacked adequate overseas > colonies could resort to plundering, exterminating and expropriating > those of their countrymen who did not possess the national traits. > > The establishment of nation-states was greeted with euphoric > enthusiasm by poets as well as peasants who thought their muses or > their gods had at last descended to earth. The main wet blankets > amidst the waving banners and flying confetti were the former rulers, > the colonized, and the disciples of Karl Marx. > > The overthrown and the colonized were unenthusiastic for obvious > reasons. > > The disciples of Marx were unenthusiastic because they had learned > from the master that national liberation meant national exploitation, > that the national government was the executive committee of the > national capitalist class, that the nation had nothing for workingmen > but chains. These strategists for the workingmen, who were not > themselves workingmen but were as bourgeois as the ruling capitalists, > proclaimed that the workingmen had no country and organized themselves > into an International. This International split into three, and each > International moved increasingly into the field of Marx's blind spot. > > The First International was carried off by Marx's one-time Russian > translator and then antagonist Bakunin, an inveterate rebel who had > been a fervent nationalist until he'd learned about exploitation from > Marx. Bakunin and his companions, rebels against all authorities, also > rebelled against the authority of Marx; they suspected Marx of trying > to turn the International into a state as repressive as the feudal and > national combined. Bakunin and his followers were unambiguous in their > rejection of all states, but they were ambiguous about capitalist > enterprise. Even more than Marx, they glorified science, celebrated > material progress and hailed industrialization. Being rebels, they > considered every fight a good fight, but the best of all was the fight > against the bourgeoisie's former enemies, the fight against feudal > landlords and the Catholic Church. Thus the Bakuninist International > flourished in places like Spain, where the bourgeoisie had not > completed its struggle for independence but had, instead, allied > itself with feudal barons and the Church for protection from insurgent > workers and peasants. The Bakuninists fought to complete the bourgeois > revolution without and against the bourgeoisie. They called themselves > anarchists and disdained all states, but did not begin to explain how > they would procure the preliminary or the subsequent industry, > progress and science, namely the capital, without an army and a > police. They were never given a real chance to resolve their > contradiction in practice, and present day Bakuninists have still not > resolved it, have not even become aware that there is a contradiction > between anarchy and industry. > > The Second International, less rebellious than the first, quickly came > to terms with capital as well as the state. Solidly entrenched in > Marx's blind spot, the professors of this organization did not become > enmeshed in any Bakuninist contradiction. It was obvious to them that > the exploitation and the plunder were necessary conditions for the > material progress, and they realistically reconciled themselves to > what could not be helped. All they asked for was a greater share of > the benefits for the workingmen, and offices in the political > establishment for themselves, as the workingmen's representatives. > Like the good unionists who preceded and followed them, the socialist > professors were embarrassed by "the colonial question," but their > embarrassment, like Philip Hapsburg's, merely gave them bad > consciences. In time, imperial German socialists, royal Danish > socialists and republican French socialists even ceased to be > internationalists. > > The Third International did not only come to terms with capital and > the state; it made them its goal. This international was not formed by > rebellious or dissenting intellectuals; it was created by a state, the > Russian state, after the Bolshevik Party installed itself in that > state's offices. The main activity of this international was to > advertise the feats of the revamped Russian state, of its ruling > party, and of the party's founder, a man who called himself Lenin. The > feats of that party and founder were indeed momentous, but the > advertisers did their best to hide what was most momentous about them. > > The first world war had left two vast empires in a quandary. The > Celestial Empire of China, the oldest continuous state in the world, > and the Empire of the Tsars, a much more recent operation, hovered > shakily between the prospect of turning themselves into nation-states > and the prospect of decomposing into smaller units, like their Ottoman > and Hapsburg counterparts had done. > > Lenin resolved this quandary for Russia. Is such a thing possible? > Marx had observed that a single individual could not change > circumstances; he could only avail himself of them. Marx was probably > right. Lenin's feat was not to change circumstances, but to avail > himself of them in an extraordinary manner. The feat was monumental in > its opportunism. > > Lenin was a Russian bourgeois who cursed the weakness and ineptitude > of the Russian bourgeoisie. [4] An enthusiast for capitalist > development, an ardent admirer of American-style progress, he did not > make common cause with those he cursed, but rather with their enemies, > with the Anti-capitalist disciples of Marx. He availed himself of > Marx's blind spot to transform Marx's critique of the capitalist > production process into a manual for developing capital, a "how-to-do- > it" guide. Marx's studies of exploitation and immiseration became food > for the famished, a cornucopia, a virtual horn of plenty. American > businessmen had already marketed urine as spring water, but no > American confidence man had yet managed an inversion of such magnitude. > > No circumstances were changed. Every step of the inversion was carried > out with available circumstances, with tried and tested methods. > Russian countryfolk could not be mobilized in terms of their > Russianness or orthodoxy or whiteness, but they could be, and were, > mobilized in terms of their exploitation, their oppression, their ages > of suffering under the despotism of the Tsars. Oppression and > exploitation became welding materials. The long sufferings under the > Tsars were used in the same way and for the same purpose as the > scalpings of white women and children had been used by Americans; they > were used to organize people into fighting units, into embryos of the > national army and the national police. > > The presentation of the dictator and of the Party's central committee > as a dictatorship of the liberated proletariat seemed to be something > new, but even this was new only in the words that were used. This was > something as old as the Pharaohs and Lugals of ancient Egypt and > Mesopotamia, who had been chosen by the god to lead the people, who > had embodied the people in their dialogues with the god. This was a > tried and tested gimmick of rulers. Even if the ancient precedents > were temporarily forgotten, a more recent precedent had been provided > by the French Committee of Public Health, which had presented itself > as the embodiment of the nation's general will. > > The goal, communism, the overthrow and supersession of capitalism, > also seemed something new, seemed to be a change of circumstances. But > only the word was new. the goal of the dictator of the proletariat was > still American-style progress, capitalist development, > electrification, rapid mass transportation, science, the processing of > the natural environment. The goal was the capitalism that the weak and > inept Russian bourgeoisie had failed to develop. With Marx's Capital > as their light and guide, the dictator and his Party would develop > capitalism in Russia; they would serve as a substitute bourgeoisie, > and they would use the power of the state not only to police the > process, but to launch and manage it as well. > > Lenin did not live long enough to demonstrate his virtuosity as > general manager of Russian capital, but his successor Stalin amply > demonstrated the powers of the founder's machine. The fist step was > the primitive accumulation of capital. If Marx had not been very clear > about this, Preobrazhensky had been very clear. Preobrazhensky was > jailed, but his description of the tried and tested methods of > procuring preliminary capital was applied to vast Russia. The > preliminary capital of English, American, Belgian and other > capitalists had come from plundered overseas colonies. Russia had no > overseas colonies. This lack was no obstacle. The entire Russian > countryside was transformed into a colony. > > The first sources of preliminary capital were Kulaks, peasants who had > something worth plundering. This drive was so successful that it was > applied to the remaining peasants as well, with the rational > expectation that small amounts plundered from many people would yield > a substantial hoard. > > The peasants were not the only colonials. The former ruling class had > already been thoroughly expropriated of all its wealth and property, > but yet other sources of preliminary capital were found. With the > totality of state power concentrated in their hands, the dictators > soon discovered that they could manufacture sources of primitive > accumulation. Successful entrepreneurs, dissatisfied workers and > peasants, militants of competing organizations, even disillusioned > Party Members, could be designated as counter- revolutionaries, > rounded up, expropriated and shipped off to labor camps. All the > deportations, mass executions and expropriations of earlier colonizers > were re-enacted in Russia. > > Earlier colonizers, being pioneers, had resorted to trial and error. > The Russian dictators did not have to resort to trial and error. By > their time, all the methods of procuring preliminary capital had been > tried and tested, and could be scientifically applied. Russian capital > developed in a totally controlled environment, a hothouse; every > lever, every variable, was controlled by the national police. > Functions which had been left to chance or to other bodies in less > controlled environments fell to the police in the Russian hothouse. > The fact that the colonials were not abroad but within, and therefore > subject not to conquest but to arrest, further increased the role and > size of the police. In time the omnipotent and omnipresent police > became the visible emanation and embodiment of the proletariat, and > communism became a synonym of total police organization and control. > > Lenin's expectations were not, however, fully realized by the Russian > hothouse. The police-as-capitalist worked wonders in procuring > preliminary capital from expropriated counter- revolutionaries, but > did not do nearly as well in managing the capitalist production > process. It may still be too early to tell for sure, but to date this > police bureaucracy had been at least as inept in this role as the > bourgeoisie Lenin had cursed; its ability to discover ever new sources > of preliminary capital seems to be all that has kept it afloat. > > Nor has the appeal of this apparatus been on a level with Lenin's > expectations. The Leninist police apparatus has not appealed to > businessmen or to established politicians; it has not recommended > itself as a superior method of managing the production process. It has > appealed to a somewhat different social class, a class I will briefly > try to describe, and it has recommended itself to this class primarily > as a method of seizing national power and secondarily as a method of > primitive accumulation of capital. > > The heirs of Lenin and Stalin have not been actual Praetorian guards, > actual wielders of economic and political power in the name and for > the benefit of a superfluous monarch; they have been understudy > Praetorians, students of economic and political power who despaired of > ever reaching even intermediate levels of power. The Leninist model > has offered such people the prospect of leaping over the intermediate > levels directly into the central palace. > > The heirs of Lenin were clerks and minor officials, people like > Mussolini, Mao Zedong and Hitler, people who, like Lenin himself, > cursed their weak and inept bourgeoisies for having failed to > establish their nation's greatness. > > (I do not include the Zionists among the heirs of Lenin because they > belong to an earlier generation. They were Lenin's contemporaries who > had, perhaps independently, discovered the power of persecution and > suffering as welding materials for the mobilization of a national army > and police. The Zionists made other contributions of their own. Their > treatment of a dispersed religious population as a nation, their > imposition of the capitalist nation-state as that population's end-all > and be-all, and their reduction of a religious heritage to a racial > heritage, contributed significant elements to the nationalist > methodology, and would have fateful consequences when they were > applied on a population of Jews, not all of them Zionists, by a > population welded together as a "German race.") > > Mussolini, Mao Zedong and Hitler cut through the curtain of slogans > and saw Lenin's and Stalin's feats for what they were: successful > methods of seizing and maintaining state power. All three trimmed the > methodology down to its essentials. The first step was to join up with > likeminded students of power and to form the nucleus of the police > organization, an outfit called, after Lenin's, the Party. The next > step was to recruit the mass base, the available troops and troop > suppliers. The third step was to seize the apparatus of the state, to > install the theoretician in the office of Duce, Chairman or Fuehrer, > to apportion police and managerial functions among the elite or cadre, > and to put the mass base to work. The fourth step was to secure the > preliminary capital needed to repair or launch a military-industrial > complex capable of supporting the national leader and cadre, the > police and army, the industrial managers; without this capital there > could be no weapons, no power, no nation. > > The heirs of Lenin and Stalin further trimmed the methodology, in > their recruiting drives, by minimizing capitalist exploitation and by > concentrating on national oppression. Talk of exploitation no longer > served a purpose, and had in fact become embarrassing, since it was > obvious to all, especially to wage workers, that successful > revolutionaries had not put an end to wage labor, but had extended its > domain. > > Being as pragmatic as American businessmen, the new revolutionaries > did not speak of liberation from wage labor, but of national > liberation. [5] This type of liberation was not a dream of romantic > utopians; it was precisely what was possible, and all that was > possible, in the existing world, one needed only to avail oneself of > already existing circumstances to make it happen. National liberation > consisted of the liberation of the national chairman and the national > police from the chains of powerlessness; the investiture of the > chairman and the establishment of the police were not pipe dreams but > components of a tried and tested strategy, a science. > > Fascist and National Socialist Parties were the first to prove that > the strategy worked, that the Bolshevik Party's feat could actually be > repeated. The national chairmen and their staffs installed themselves > in power and set out to procure the preliminary capital needed for > national greatness. The Fascists thrust themselves into one of the > last uninvaded regions of Africa and gouged it as earlier > industrializers had gouged their colonial empires. The National > Socialists targeted Jews, an inner population that had been members of > a "unified Germany" as long as other Germans, as their first source of > primitive accumulation because many of the Jews, like many of Stalin's > Kulaks, had things worth plundering. > > Zionists had already preceded the National Socialists in reducing a > religion to a race, and National Socialists could look back to > American pioneers for ways to use the instrument of racism. Hitler's > elite needed only to translate the corpus of American racist research > to equip their scientific institutes with large libraries. The > National Socialists dealt with Jews much the same way as the Americans > had earlier dealt with the indigenous population of North America, > except that the National Socialists applied a later and much more > powerful technology to the task of deporting, expropriating and > exterminating human beings. But in this the later exterminators were > not innovators; they merely availed themselves of the circumstances > within their reach. > > The Fascists and National Socialists were joined by Japanese empire- > builders who feared that the decomposing Celestial Empire would become > a source of preliminary capital for Russian or revolutionary Chinese > industrializers. Forming an Axis, the three set out to turn the > world's continents into sources of primitive accumulation of capital. > They were not bothered by other nations until they started to encroach > on the colonies and homelands of established capitalist powers. The > reduction of already established capitalists to colonized prey could > be practised internally, where it was always legal since the nation's > rulers make its laws – and had already been practised internally by > Leninists and Stalinists. But such a practice would have amounted to a > change of circumstances, and it could not be carried abroad without > provoking a world war. The Axis powers overreached themselves and lost. > > After the war, many reasonable people would speak of the aims of the > Axis as irrational and of Hitler as a lunatic. Yet the same reasonable > people would consider men like George Washington and Thomas Jefferson > sane and rational, even though these men envisioned and began to enact > the conquest of a vast continent, the deportation and extermination of > the continent's population, at a time when such a project was much > less feasible than the project of the Axis. [6] It is true that the > technologies as well as the physical, chemical, biological and social > sciences applied by Washington and Jefferson were quite different from > those applied by the National Socialists. But if knowledge is power, > if it was rational for the earlier pioneers to maim and kill with > gunpowder in the age of horse-drawn carriages, why was it irrational > for National Socialists to maim and kill with high explosives, gas and > chemical agents in the age of rockets, submarines and "freeways"? > > The Nazis were, if anything, yet more scientifically-oriented than the > Americans. In their time, they were a synonym for scientific > efficiency to much of the world. They kept files on everything, > tabulated and cross tabulated their findings, published their > tabulations in scientific journals. Among them, even racism was not > the property of frontier rabble-rousers, but of well-endowed institutes. > > Many reasonable people seem to equate lunacy with failure. This would > not be the first time. Many called Napoleon a lunatic when he was in > prison or in exile, but when Napoleon re-emerged as the Emperor, the > same people spoke of him with respect, even reverence. Incarceration > and exile are not only regarded as remedies for lunacy, but also as > its symptoms. Failure is foolishness. > > Mao Zedong, the third pioneering national socialist (or national > communist; the second word no longer matters, since it is nothing but > a historical relic; the expression "left-wing fascist" would serve as > well, but it conveys even less meaning than the nationalist > expressions) succeeded in doing for the Celestial Empire what Lenin > had done for the Empire of the Tsars. The oldest bureaucratic > apparatus in the world did not decompose into smaller units nor into > colonies of other industrializers; it re-emerged, greatly changed, as > a People's Republic, as a beacon to "oppressed nations." > > The Chairman and his Cadre followed the footsteps of a long line of > predecessors and transformed the Celestial Empire into a vast source > of preliminary capital, complete with purges, persecutions and their > consequent great leaps forward. > > The next stage, the launching of the capitalist production process, > was carried out on the Russian model, namely by the national police. > This did not work in China any better than it had in Russia. > Apparently the entrepreneurial function was to be entrusted to > confidence men or hustlers who are able to take other people in, and > cops do not usually inspire the required confidence. But this was less > important to Maoists than it had been to Leninists. The capitalist > production process remains important, at least as important as the > regularized drives for primitive accumulation, since without the > capital there is no power, no nation. But the Maoists make few, and > ever fewer, claims for their model as a superior method of > industrialization, and in this they are more modest than the Russians > and less disappointed by the results of their industrial police. > > The Maoist model offers itself to security guards and students the > world over as a tried and tested methodology of power, as a scientific > strategy of national liberation. Generally known as Mao- Zedong- > Thought [7], this science offers aspiring chairmen and cadres the > prospect of unprecedented power over living beings, human activities > and even thoughts. The pope and priests of the Catholic Church, with > all their inquisitions and confessions, never had such power, not > because they would have rejected it, but because they lacked the > instruments made available by modern science and technology. > > The liberation of the nation is the last stage in the elimination of > parasites. Capitalism and already earlier cleared nature of parasites > and reduced most of the rest of nature to raw materials for processing > industries. Modern national socialism or social nationalism holds out > the prospect of eliminating parasites from human society as well. The > human parasites are usually sources of preliminary capital, but the > capital is not always "material"; it can also be cultural or > "spiritual." The ways, myths, poetry and music of the people are > liquidated as a matter of course; some of the music and costumes of > the former "folk culture" subsequently reappear, processed and > packaged, as elements of the national spectacle, as decorations for > the national accumulation drives; the ways and myths become raw > materials for processing by one or several of the "human sciences." > Even the useless resentment of workers toward their alienated wage > labor is liquidated. When the nation is liberated, wage labor ceases > to be an onerous burden and becomes a national obligation, to be > carried out with joy. The inmates of a totally liberated nation read > Orwell's 1984 as an anthropological study, a description of an earlier > age. > > It is no longer possible to satirize this state of affairs. Every > satire risks becoming a bible for yet another national liberation > front. [8] Every satirist risks becoming the founder of a new > religion, a Buddha, Zarathustra, Jesus, Muhammad or Marx. Every > exposure of the ravages of the dominant system, every critique of the > system's functioning, becomes fodder for the horses of liberators, > welding materials for builders of armies. Mao-Zedong- Thought in its > numerous versions and revisions is a total science as well as a total > theology; it is social physics as well as cosmic metaphysics. The > French Committee of National Health claimed to embody the general will > of only the French nation. The revisions of Mao-Zedong-Thought claim > to embody the general will of all the world's oppressed. > > The constant revisions of this Thought are necessary because its > initial formulations were not applicable to all, or in fact to any, of > the world's colonized populations. None of the world's colonized > shared the Chinese heritage of having supported a state apparatus for > the past two thousand years. Few of the world's oppressed had > possessed any of the attributes of a nation in the recent or distant > past. The Thought had to be adapted to people whose ancestors had > lived without national chairmen, armies or police, without capitalist > production processes and therefore without the need for preliminary > capital. > > These revisions were accomplished by enriching the initial Thought > with borrowings from Mussolini, Hitler and the Zionist state of > Israel. Mussolini's theory of the fulfilment of the nation in the > state was a central tenet. All groups of people, whether small or > large, industrial or non-industrial, concentrated or dispersed, were > seen as nations, not in terms of their past, but in terms of their > aura, their potentiality, a potentiality embedded in their national > liberation fronts. Hitler's (and the Zionists') treatment of the > nation as a racial entity was another central tenet. The cadres were > recruited from among people depleted of their ancestors' kinships and > customs, and consequently the liberators were not distinguishable from > the oppressors in terms of language, beliefs, customs or weapons; the > only welding material that held them to each other and to their mass > base was the welding material that had held white servants to white > bosses on the American frontier; the "racial bond" gave identities to > those without identity, kinship to those who had no kin, community to > those who had lost their community; it was the last bond of the > culturally depleted. > > The revised thought could now be applied to Africans as well as > Navahos, Apaches as well as Palestinians. [9] The borrowings from > Mussolini, Hitler and the Zionists are judiciously covered up, because > Mussolini and Hitler failed to hold on to their seized power, and > because the successful Zionists have turned their state into the > world's policeman against all other national liberation fronts. Lenin, > Stalin and Mao Zedong must be given even more credit than they deserve. > > The revised and universally applicable models work much the same as > the originals, but more smoothly; national liberation has become an > applied science; the apparatus has been frequently tested; the > numerous kinks in the originals have by now been straightened out. All > that is needed to make the contraption run is a driver, a transmission > belt, and fuel. > > The driver is of course the theoretician himself, or his closest > disciple. The transmission belt is the general staff, the > organization, also called the Party or the communist party. This > communist party with a small c is exactly what it is popularly > understood to be. It is the nucleus of the police organization that > does the purging and that will itself be purged once the leader > becomes National Leader and needs to re-revise the invariant Thought > while adapting himself to the family of nations, or at least to the > family bankers, munitions suppliers and investors. And the fuel: the > oppressed nation, the suffering masses, the liberated people are and > will continue to be the fuel. > > The leader and the general staff are not flown in from abroad; they > are not foreign agitators. They are integral products of the > capitalist production process. This production process has invariably > been accompanied by racism. Racism is not a necessary component of > production, but racism (in some form) has been a necessary component > of the process of primitive accumulation of capital, and it has almost > always leaked into the production process. > > Industrialized nations have procured their preliminary capital by > expropriating, deporting, persecuting and segregating, if not always > by exterminating, people designated as legitimate prey. Kinships were > broken, environments were destroyed, cultural orientations and ways > were extirpated. > > Descendants of survivors of such onslaughts are lucky if they preserve > the merest relics, the most fleeting shadows of their ancestors' > cultures. Many of the descendants do not retain even shadows; they are > totally depleted; they go to work; they further enlarge the apparatus > that destroyed their ancestors' culture. And in the world of work they > are relegated to the margins, to the most unpleasant and least highly > paid jobs. This makes them mad. A supermarket packer, for example, may > know more about the stocks and the ordering than the manager, may know > that racism is the only reason he is not manager and the manager not a > packer. A security guard may know racism is the only reason he's not > chief of police. It is among people who have lost all their roots, who > dream themselves supermarket managers and chiefs of police, that the > national liberation front takes root; this is where the leader and > general staff are formed. > > Nationalism continues to appeal to the depleted because other > prospects appear bleaker. The culture of the ancestors was destroyed; > therefore, by pragmatic standard, it failed; the only ancestors who > survived were those who accommodated themselves to the invader's > system, and they survived on the outskirts of garbage dumps. The > varied utopias of poets and dreamers and the numerous "mythologies of > the proletariat" have also failed; they have not proven themselves in > practice; they have been nothing but hot air, pipe dreams, pies in the > sky; the actual proletariat has been as racist as the bosses and the > police. > > The packer and the security guard have lost contact with the ancient > culture; pipe dreams and utopias don't interest them, are in fact > dismissed with the practical businessman's contempt toward poets, > drifters and dreamers. Nationalism offers them something concrete, > something that's been tried and tested and is known to work. There's > no earthly reason for the descendants of the persecuted to remain > persecuted when nationalism offers them the prospect of becoming > persecutors. Near and distant relatives of victims can become a racist > nation-state; they can themselves herd other people into concentration > camps, push other people around at will, perpetrate genocidal war > against them, procure preliminary capital by expropriating them. And > if "racial relatives" of Hitler's victims can do it, so can the near > and distant relatives of the victims of a Washington, Jackson, Reagan > or Begin. > > Every oppressed population can become a nation, a photographic > negative of the oppressor nation, a place where the former packer is > the supermarket's manager, where the former security guard is the > chief of police. By applying the corrected strategy, every security > guard can follow the precedent of ancient Rome's Praetorian guards. > The security police of a foreign mining trust can proclaim itself a > republic, liberate the people, and go on liberating them until they > have nothing left but to pray for liberation to end. Even before the > seizure of power, a gang can call itself a Front and offer heavily > taxed and constantly policed poor people something they still lack: a > tribute-gathering organization and a hit-squad, namely supplementary > tax farmers and police, the people's own. In these ways, people can be > liberated of the traits of their victimized ancestors; all the relics > that still survive from pre-industrial times and non-capitalist > cultures can at last be permanently extirpated. > > The idea that an understanding of the genocide, that a memory of the > holocausts, can only lead people to want to dismantle the system, is > erroneous. The continuing appeal of nationalism suggests that the > opposite is truer, namely that an understanding of genocide has led > people to mobilize genocidal armies, that the memory of holocausts has > led people to perpetrate holocausts. The sensitive poets who > remembered the loss, the researchers who documented it, have been like > the pure scientists who discovered the structure of the atom. Applied > scientists used the discovery to split the atom's nucleus, to produce > weapons which can split every atom's nucleus; Nationalists used the > poetry to split and fuse human populations, to mobilize genocidal > armies, to perpetrate new holocausts. > > The pure scientist, poets and researchers consider themselves innocent > of the devastated countrysides and charred bodies. Are they innocent? > > It seems to me that at least one of Marx's observations is true: every > minute devoted to the capitalist production process, every thought > contributed to the industrial system, further enlarges a power that is > inimical to nature, to culture, to life. Applied science is not > something alien; it is an integral part of the capitalist production > process. Nationalism is not flown in from abroad. It is a product of > the capitalist production process, like the chemical agents poisoning > the lakes, air, animals and people, like the nuclear plants > radioactivating micro-environments in preparation for the > radioactivation of the macro-environment. > > As a postscript I'd like to answer a question before it is asked. The > question is: "Don't you think a descendant of oppressed people is > better off as a supermarket manager or police chief?" My answer is > another question: What concentration camp manager, national > executioner or torturer is not a descendant of oppressed people? > > Notes > > 1. The subtitle of the first volume of Capital is A Critique of > Political Economy: The Process of Capitalist Production (published by > Charles H. Kerr & Co., 1906; republished by Random House, New York). > > 2. In Ibid., pp.784-850: Part VIII: "The So-Called Primitive > Accumulation." > > 3. E. Preobrazhensky, The New Economics (Moscow, 1926; English > translation published by Clarendon Press, Oxford, 1965), a book which > announced the fateful "law of primitive socialist accumulation." > > 4. See V.I. Lenin, The Development of Capitalism in Russia (Moscow: > Progress Publishers, 1964; first published in 1899). I quote from page > 599: "if...we compare the present rapidity of development with that > which could be achieved with the general level of technique and > culture as it is today, the present rate of development of capitalism > in Russia really must be considered as slow. And it cannot but be > slow, for in no single capitalist country has there been such an > abundant survival of ancient institutions that are incompatible with > capitalism, retard its development, and immeasurably worsen the > condition of the producers..." > > 5. Or the liberation of the state: "Our myth is the nation, our myth > is the greatness of the nation"; "It is the state which creates the > nation, conferring volition and therefore real life on a people made > aware of their moral unity"; "Always the maximum of liberty coincides > with the maximum force of the state"; "Everything for the state; > nothing against the state; nothing outside the state." From Che cosa A > il fascismo and La dottrina del fascismo, quoted by G.H. Sabine, A > History of Political Theory (New York, 1955), pp.872-878. > > 6. "... the gradual extension of our settlements will as certainly > cause the savage, as the wolf, to retire; both being beast of prey, > tho' they differ in shape" (G. Washington in 1783). "... if ever we > are constrained to lift the hatchet against any tribe, we will never > lay it down till that tribe is exterminated, or driven beyond..." (T. > Jefferson in 1807). "... the cruel massacres they have committed on > the women and children of our frontiers taken by surprise, will oblige > us now to pursue them to extermination, or drive them to new seats > beyond our reach" (T. Jefferson in 1813). Quoted by Richard Drinnon > inFacing West: The Metaphysics of Indian-Hating and Empire Building > (New York: New American Library, 1980), pp.65, 96, 98. > > 7. Readily available in paper back as Quotations from Chairman Mao > (Peking: Political Department of the people's Liberation Army, 1966). > > 8. Black & Red tried to satirize this situation over ten years ago > with the publication of a fake Manual for Revolutionary Leaders, a > "how-to-do-it guide" whose author, Michael Velli, offered to do for > the modern revolutionary prince what Machiavelli had offered the > feudal prince. This phoney Manualfused Mao-Zedong-Thought with the > Thought of Lenin, Stalin, Mussolini, Hitler and their modern > followers, and offered grizzly recipes for the preparation of > revolutionary organizations and the seizure of total power. > Disconcertingly, at least half of the requests for this Manual came > from aspiring national liberators, and it is possible that some of the > current versions of the nationalist metaphysic contain recipes offered > by Michael Velli. > > 9. I am not exaggerating. I have before me a book-length pamphlet > titled The Mythology of the White Proletariat: A Short Course for > Understanding Babylon by J. Sakai (Chicago: Morningstar Press, 1983). > As an application of Mao-Zedong-Thought to American history, it is the > most sensitive Maoist work I've seen. The author documents and > describes, sometimes vividly, the oppression of America's enslaved > Africans, the deportations and exterminations of the American > continent's indigenous inhabitants, the racist exploitation of > Chinese, the incarceration of Japanese- Americans in concentration > camps. The author mobilizes all these experiences of unmitigated > terror, not to look for ways to supersede the system that perpetrated > them, but to urge the victims to reproduce the same system among > themselves. Sprinkled with pictures and quotations of chairmen Lenin, > Stalin, Mao Zedong and Ho-chi Minh, this work makes no attempt to hide > or disguise its repressive aims; it urges Africans as well as Navahos, > Apaches as well as Palestinians, to organize a party, seize state > power, and liquidate parasites. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From indersalim at gmail.com Wed Sep 17 08:32:52 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 08:32:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] kashmiriyat by Meena Arora Nayak Message-ID: <47e122a70809162002t2a8f480bnbf83ced01f9a9006@mail.gmail.com> http://www.worldviewmagazine.com/issues/article.cfm?id=106&issue=25 KASHMIRIYAT An embracing spirit languishes like the dying chinar tree by Meena Arora Nayak Lal Chowk surprised me. Instead of crumbling stores, I saw in them merchandise piled high. Instead of the evidence of battles, I saw vendors and vehicles competing for street space. Instead of fear-stricken people, I saw a crowded marketplace, brimming with activity. When I expressed my surprise to Arshad, my escort, he told me that the state officials repaired all damages almost overnight-a ruse to convince the people or, perhaps, themselves that the situation was just as repairable. As for the people in the market, he said, "Life goes on. In fact, within 20 minutes of an incident every thing goes back to normal. We have become so used to it." We bought the cheese and as we strolled through the crowds, we heard a crash-thunderous-and the earth trembled under our feet. Within a minute, everything changed. Bustling streets became fear-filled confusion. Storekeepers pulled down shutters; vendors and vehicles became entangled in flight; people ran in all directions, pushing against each other, stumbling over wares laid out on sidewalks. As I stood rooted to the ground, suspended in this surreal dimension, a young woman ran past us, her bright yellow duppatta, which a minute ago had probably covered her head in modesty, flying off her shoulder in a trail of fire. Arshad and I began walking towards the site, shouldering our way past people fleeing in the opposite direction. "What do you think it was?" I asked Arshad. "A police encounter? A terrorist's grenade?" "Not an encounter," he said. "No shots." He paused. "No screams. There were no screams." As we turned the corner, a small crowd of men gathered around an embankment. Leaving Arshad's side, I elbowed my way into the crowd, determined to see the blatant tragedy of Kashmir. And there it was: a chinar tree 20-some meters in height and 12-some meters in girth, felled to the ground. Chinar is a Persian word meaning "what a fire." In late autumn, the chinar bursts into flames, its palm-sized leaves smoldering in colors from passionate purple to blazing red. In 1596, the great Mughal Emperor of India, Akbar, planted the first grove of chinars in a garden in Srinagar, the summer capital of Jammu and Kashmir. Since then, the chinar in Kashmir has become a dominant feature of the landscape, and its connotations have become an idiom both artistic and dialectic. This is the story of Kashmir-the story of a dying civilization. According to a Hindu legend, Kashmir was once a vast lake called Satisar, inhabited by the Nagas, the snake people. Once upon a time, a demon, Jaladeo, began terrorizing the Nagas, so they beseeched their father, Sage Kashyap, to help. Kashyap, deciding to evoke the gods, performed such severe penance that the heavens shook. Finally, Shiva descended from Mount Kailash, his abode in the Himalayas, and rented the mountainside with his mighty trident. All the water of Lake Satisar drained out. Then Vishnu's consort, the goddess Laxmi (called Sharda in Kashmir), took the shape of a hari or a mynah bird and dropped on the demon's head a pebble, which penetrated his body and grew to the size of a hill, encasing him in the rock. Thus, the hill came to be known as Hari Parbat (Hari's Mount). In gratitude to Kashyap, the site was called Kashyap Mir or Kashyap Mountain, which has gradually corrupted to Kashmir. Over the years, the slopes of the hill became enshrined with Hindu, Muslim and Sikh places of worship. In the 16th century, Akbar constructed the Hari Parbat fort along the top of the hill, enclosing the city of Srinagar in a citadel. Even before Akbar built his fort, Srinagar and the whole Kashmir valley was already a citadel. Nestled securely between the lofty Himalayan range in the north and the Pir Panjal in the south, the 134-kilometer by 40-kilometer oval plane with its meandering rivers and rippling lakes, rolling greens and flower-fragrant paths was a citadel of Eden, a citadel for a way of life which the world would never comprehend. Kashmiris call it Kashmiriyat. Kashmiriyat, when experienced as a culture, is so syncretic that it inspires an epitomizing co-existence: man's oneness with man; man's oneness with nature. Kashmiriyat, when perceived as a faith, is an amalgamation of four great traditions: the aborigines' Shaivism, a Hindu Monistic philosophy, and the disseminated wisdoms of Quran's Erfan, Buddhism's Nirvana and Sikhism's Ek Onkar. Aside from being a fertile ground for missioners, Kashmir, being on the Silk Route, was also an easy target for invaders who were sometimes benevolent but often tyrannical. This constant shift in allegiance taught Kashmiris the attitude of Kashmiriyat. No matter who or what the monarch, the people of Kashmir knew survival could only be through seamless co-existence. One of the reasons for such integration was Kashmir's insular geography, which buffered most disruptive influences. However, when the modern world's demarcation made Kashmir a strategic vantage point, the permeation of outside antagonisms in Kashmir's society was inevitable. In 1947, the year of India's partition, Kashmir emerged from the shifting tides of international politics as the invidious prize for both India and Pakistan. At that time, Kashmir was ruled by a Hindu king, but the majority of its population was Muslim. According to the precepts of the British two-nation theory, Kashmir belonged to Pakistan. However, Kashmir's Sufi Islam was hardly the Sunna- and Sharia-based Islam of Pakistan, so the Raja entered a stand-still agreement with both countries. Pakistan grew impatient and sent its troops and warlords into Kashmir, forcing the hand of the Raja, who appointed Sheikh Abdullah-a popular and trusted leader of the Kashmiris-to negotiate the treaty of Kashmir's accession to India. Thus it was that Kashmir became a part of India-but with reservation. Article 370 of the Instrument of Accession gave Kashmir semi-autonomous status within India's constitutional framework and promised the people of Kashmir a plebiscite. The article guaranteed the survival of Kashmiriyat in Kashmir, but it also became Kashmir's albatross. Imbued with this special status, Kashmir jealously protected its autonomy. Consequently, the central government in Delhi pumped into the region special food and resource subsidies but otherwise felt no real need to be actively involved in the region's affairs. The government of India did very little to monitor the state's administrative and legislative machinery. With money pouring in through the subsidies, the highly profitable tourism industry and the farming of such cash crops as fruits, walnuts and saffron, corruption was a natural result. Bribery took root early in Sheikh Abdullah's 20-year administration and burgeoned into a full-fledged orgy when the regime of his son, Farukh Abdullah, began in the mid-1980s. Civil lawlessness now reigns supreme in Kashmir. Investments, development contracts, higher education and employment are all privileges of the venal, while the ordinary Kashmiri is brick-walled. Who is held responsible for the failed system? The situation. Terrorism. A disillusioned young rickshaw driver revealed the Sophoclean irony of this inverted truth to me on my way to Chirar-I-Sharif, the shrine of the Sufi saint Nur-ud-din Wali. He was a first-class graduate of Srinagar's college of agriculture. "When I couldn't get a job, militancy became the only option. Everyone knows how much they (Pakistan's intelligence service) pay for young recruits. I tried going to the other side, but my guide abandoned me in the mountains and I returned home. I have a widowed mother and two sisters. Although I can barely feed them with this job, I consider myself lucky. If I had joined militancy…" Kashmir's reversal of fate was sealed in 1987 when various Muslim groups with an affinitive bias toward the Islamization of Pakistan's military dictator Zia-ul-Haque formed a coalition called the Muslim United Front. Haque's orthodoxy, drawing its inspiration from the Ayatollah's experiments in Iran, promised a lawful land practicing Quranic principles of governance and personal ethics. The frustrated youth of Kashmir were ready and willing to surrender Kashmiriyat to law and polity, even if it meant living in a polarized society. Muslim United Front drew such unprecedented support from the people of Kashmir that Farukh Abdullah feared defeat in that year's elections, so he formed a coalition with India's ruling Congress party. Doubtful of the coalition's victory, Farukh and Delhi orchestrated guarantees. The election was blatantly rigged. Members of the Muslim United Front watched as election booths were vandalized, votes were miscounted and polling agents were beaten and jailed. Kashmir erupted in riots and a wayward spirit entered the hearts of people. It was the spirit of revolution. The former pleas for plebiscite- Hum kya chahte hai? Rai shumari!-turned to chants for azadi or freedom. Mothers urged their sons to beckon to the call; schoolteachers stopped teaching math and history, and began talking to their students about freedom and liberty. And Pakistan-with its tantalizing promises of money and training camps-became the much needed "helping hand" or, as India liked to call it, the "foreign hand." Young Muslim men from all over the valley openly crossed the Line of Control in throngs: Local bus drivers announcing two towns-"Sopur, Kapur"-defiantly added "Upper" to indicate their destination was on the other side of the mountains. Of those 18 Muslim United Front polling agents, five joined the Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front, 12 joined the Hizb ul Mujahideen and one enlisted with the Islamic Student's Federation. The gun had entered the valley. Its first victim: Kashmiriyat. Bashir Ahmad, a third generation weaver of pashmina shawls, is a witness. Most of Bashir's business used to come directly from tourists and merchants in Jammu. The tourists stopped visiting and the shawls stopped selling. "Today, even if we can sell them in Jammu, it is at the cost of our pride. They don't trust us any more." He told me how a few years ago, he sent a shipment of pure pashmina shawls to a Jammu dealer he knew well, but when he went to collect the payment, he only received half of what was owed him. The dealer accused him of mixing wool yarn with pashmina thread. "Weaving is an ibadat," Bashir told me, "an act of worship. Weavers have a patron Sufi saint who demands honesty in ibadat. Believe me, in this business, if you are not honest, you will not be able to survive for more than a few years. We have been weavers for over 100 years. This situation has made my ancestors cheats." This mistrust has soured not just business relationships, but also relationships of the heart. Shahid sahib, my host, shared his pain with me one afternoon. Before the Kashmiri Hindus, or Pundits, as they are called, fled the valley, fearing the fanatic implications of the Islamic insurgency, Shahid sahib used to have a very close Hindu friend in his neighborhood. "Kaul and I used to play chess in the evening. His board used to sit in my living room. We would play in my house and, most evenings, go to his house for dinner. His mother was an excellent cook. I loved her like a mother. Then rumors of a Muslim militancy began to spread. But there was no real incident. However, I was worried about my friend and his family, so I told them that if anything happened, they could count on me. A couple of days later, Kaul came to ask for his chessboard and the following morning they were gone. The next thing we know, the media is splashed with atrocities the Muslims had supposedly committed against their Hindu neighbors-women raped, men tortured and killed, children brutally murdered, houses looted. These were stories that included my neighborhood. Right here where I live. How is it that I didn't see anything?" When I asked him if he still believed in Kashmiriyat, his eyes filled with tears. "No one talks about Kashmiriyat any more. Maybe it was always a myth, an illusion we had mistaken as truth." "But do you believe in it?" I insisted. "If anything had happened, I would have protected Kaul and his family with my life." Whether the grievances of the Muslims are real or imagined, whether the Pundits fled due to a situation that was real or imagined, hardly seems the point now. The fact is that the ordinary Kashmiri Muslim saw the Pundits' leaving as a betrayal of Kashmiriyat. While I talked to Shahid sahib, his seven-year-old grandson came into the room. I dug out two candy bars from my bag to give to him. When Burhan saw his grandfather's tears, he emphatically stated that Kashmir should become a part of Pakistan. "Why?" I asked him. "Because we are Musalmaan." "But do you know that India has many many Musalmaan?" "Yes, but there are also Hindus. I don't like Hindus." "Why?" "They're not nice. They tell lies." I asked him what he thought of me-whether I was nice or not. "Very nice," he said, biting into his chocolate. "So, do you think I am a Hindu or a Musalmaan?" Without hesitation, he said, "Musalmaan." I couldn't resist telling the little boy that I was a Hindu, but I regretted the impulse almost immediately, because Burhan looked at his grandfather with bewilderment and his own sense of betrayal. In fact, betrayal is the theme song of Kashmir's tragedy. Ever since 1947, the Kashmiris have been suffering one betrayal after another. The promise of the plebiscite was never fulfilled. Waiting for its realization, the people of Kashmir never identified with India and, thus, remained bereft of a national identity. Compounding this estrangement was Delhi's repeated condoning of corruption in the guise of secularism and democracy. When embittered Kashmiris turned to Pakistan after the 1987 elections fraud, Pakistan's intelligence service gathered the Kashmiris in an embrace of pretended sympathy. For a while, Kashmiris saw the Pakistani agents as fellow Muslims ready to fight for their brethren, and freedom in the Kashmiri psyche became synonymous with the fanatic elements of that agency. However, within a few years the people of Kashmir realized that Pakistan had invoked insurgency in Kashmir not for the Kashmiris' right for self-determination but for the establishment of an Islamic world-order. Their cause for freedom had been sabotaged and turned murderously against their own people. What was worse was that Kashmir's grassroots revolutionaries became indistinguishable from the terrorists of foreign nations. This fight had become a free-for-all-Afghanis, Pakistanis, Sudanese, jihadis, freedom fighters, bounty hunters. However, by then it was too late. India had already raised its flag of nationalism against Kashmir's separatist movement. India began to send in its security forces who, under the Armed Forces Special Power Act, started their own reign of terror, interrogating civilians at gunpoint and torturing and killing others on mere suspicion. The cause that had begun as a freedom movement turned into a fractured war against military occupation. Even if Kashmir is not fighting a conventional war, it is a war zone. There are approximately 700,000 Indian military personnel from five different brigades posted in Kashmir at all times. Not only is the border lined thickly with Indian and Pakistani armies, but the towns look like combat zones. Gun-toting soldiers are everywhere-patrolling gardens, parks, lakesides, and even places of worship. Traffic in the streets is often stalled to allow the lumbering, armored vehicles of war to make their rounds. In Srinagar, there is a military bunker every 200 meters, complete with sandbags, chains and soldiers flashing AK-47s. Roadside checks have become routine. Anywhere, anytime, public busses and private cars can be stopped and thoroughly inspected, and the passengers rigorously questioned. There is no official curfew in Srinagar, but after eight in the evening, the city becomes a shadowy ghost town of stray dogs and security guards. Every corner is a nucleus of suspicion and every military bunker an interrogation cell. If you are not able to provide identification, or if you resist in any manner, may God help you. "What can they do to you?" I asked Arshad one evening when we were caught in this nightmare. "Young men disappear in Kashmir every day. Sometimes people find their bodies-in lakes or on river banks; other times they just vanish." I remembered a wailing mother in Hazrat Bal, the mosque where a strand of Prophet Mohammed's hair is enshrined. She had been circumambulating the sanctum sanctorum, kissing every latticed window, leaving a trail of tears all along the marble walls. Upon my asking, she had told me her son had disappeared. Dr. G.Q. Allaquabad, a leading Kashmiri psychiatrist, says today Kashmir's entire population suffers from depression. And it isn't just the Kashmiris who are susceptible; the soldiers posted in Kashmir are also weary and homesick. In Zaina Kadal, a riot-prone neighborhood, I talked to a soldier standing beside a bunker with Mera Bharat Mahan (My India is Great) written on its side in large red letters. The soldier was a little wary but willing to talk. He told me he was from a village near Bombay and that he had been stationed in Kashmir for five years. "My son was born in my absence," he said with a sadness in his eyes. "I see him when I go home on leave, but I miss him." I asked him if he was afraid for his life, since military units were the terrorists' main targets. "There's always a fear, but I'm a soldier. I go wherever my country needs me." I asked him then if he was aware that the people of Kashmir were sick of India and it military's presence. His manner changed suddenly. "We are here for their protection," he said in a tone of a programmed machine. According to the people of Kashmir, they never needed military protection against their own militants. No Kashmiri blamed them for taking up the gun. Besides, they believe that all Kashmiris who were alleged terrorists are either dead or reformed. There are certainly foreign nationals still operating in the valley, and no amount of security seems to prevent their infiltration across the border. The Kashmiris say that is because the real terrorists have always been and still are India and Pakistan, and they don't want the conflict to end. When Kashmir's trouble began, the governments of both India and Pakistan exploited communal sentiments by feeding the public rumors of ethnic cleansing. Aside from engaging domestic public opinion, both governments realized that they could use Kashmir to clean their image in the world's view. Pakistan surmised it could ﾑcry wolf' and acquire large amounts foreign aid to keep its military well-equipped against its warring neighbor, India; and the Indian politicians discovered they could absolve themselves of all sins, including going nuclear, by citing victimization by Pakistan-sponsored terrorism. The Kashmir conflict has become such a raison d'￪tre for their hostility that one wonders what both countries will use as a stratagem if the Kashmir question were diplomatically settled. "It'll never be resolved as long as we are caught between their quarrels. The only solution is for India to cut us loose and for Pakistan to stop interfering in our bid for freedom," Shahid sahib told me, echoing the sentiment of many Kashmiris. A free Kashmir? The most poignant tragedy of this elusive desire is that Kashmir is almost incapable of survival as an independent nation. The people of Kashmir are aware of this, yet they crave it. For most of its post-1947 life, Kashmir has lived on subsidies from India. Over the years, the agriculture department replaced the farming of staple crops like rice and wheat with revenue-generating cash crops like saffron and fruits and walnuts. Consequently, Kashmir today imports most of its rice, wheat and vegetables from other Indian states. It would take Kashmir years to restructure its agriculture in order to feed its people. The tourism industry, which used to be the backbone of Kashmir's economy, is non-existent today. Freedom for Kashmir would also mean a constant threat from its powerful neighbors, India, Pakistan, China and Russia. For the simple Kashmiri, however, freedom merely means the return of Kashmiriyat and a simple faith in God's benevolence. Sitting in the verdant green lawns of the Jama Masjid, enjoying the afternoon sun, four young friends who make a living by spinning pashmina thread, talked to me about azadi and what it meant to them. Irshada, one of the women said, "It is the right to live our lives like ordinary people." When I asked her what her definition of an ordinary life was, she blushed and looked at her friends. Her friend, Sumaira, who, incidentally, is the sister of the man Irshada hopes to marry, said, "she wants to marry the man of her choice." "And have a family and enough money to live a comfortable life," Irshada shyly added. "Azadi means no violence, no Indian presence, no Pakistani presence. Just us. Kashmiris," Sumaira said. "And no Pundits?" I asked. "They will come back once we have azadi. This is their Kashmir, too. We want them to come back." "And there would be no trouble between the communities after all that has happened?" "Have you heard about Kashmir's Kashmiriyat?" Irfana, the unsmiling one asked me. I told her I had, but I wanted to hear her version of it. "We used to have a Musalmaan ruler a long time ago-hundreds of years ago-whose governor was so cruel he used to tie up Hindus in gunny sacks and drown them in the Dal Lake. Most Hindus fled from Kashmir at that time. Then another Musalmaan ruler came to rule Kashmir. His name was Zain-al-Abdin. He invited the Hindus back and appointed them to high positions in his kingdom. He helped them rebuild their temples and celebrated their festivals with them. The Kashmiris learnt so much from him, they called him Budshah (great king). He taught us all to love our land-our Kashmir-and to live together as Kashmiris. That is Kashmiriyat." "It's still there," Irfana added. "Kashmiriyat is still there. "It's hard to see it these days, because of the violence, but it's there-in the hearts of all the Kashmiris." Irshada smiled at me and said with a faith so firm I envied her, "We'll be fine when we get azadi. Allah tallah will look after all of us." I came to Kashmir as a Hindu to reaffirm my faith before an image of Shiva which is found in a cave near Srinagar. Instead, I tied threads of hope on the lattice work of Makhdoom Sahib and Dastgir Sahib mosques, rubbed my nose in the dirt of Chhati Padshahi Gurudwara and rang bells of peace at the Chos Khor Buddhist monastery. I had become a pilgrim who questioned the silence of these silent guardians of Kashmiriyat. Irshada's simple faith restored my hope for Kashmiriyat's survival, so I decided to spend my last day in Kashmir as I would have back in the days when Kashmiriyat was not just in the hearts of the people but roamed free in the streets. I rented a houseboat for the evening to watch the sun rise on the Dal Lake. Sitting on the deck that evening, watching the long twilight linger on the Dal, I heard shots in the distance. "An encounter?" I asked Aslam, the houseboat owner. "No, no. Only some tourists playing with firecrackers. Don't let it worry you. You enjoy your evening." But I knew he lied. I asked him what he thought of the situation. "Death," he said, lighting his 10th cigarette of the evening. "We will die, either from a terrorist's gun or from being caught in the crossfire. If not that, then from a heart attack brought on by the tension of a failing business." "Whom do you blame?' I asked. He shook his head. "Kashmir has been touched by an evil eye." I remembered the chinar I had seen on my first day in Srinagar. A tree removal team from the garden and parks department had felled it. It was dying. Nobody really knew the cause. "It was the heavy traffic. The pollution," a bystander had told me. "Some bug was eating away at its insides," another one said. "It's greed," a dapper young man dressed impeccably in khaki trousers and a bright white shirt had stated. "They need the space for more business construction." The chinar was obviously dying. I remembered seeing the peeling scabs on its once-smooth bark and fissures in the circular age lines in the massive hollow trunk. Some of its branches, dry and brittle, had snapped when it had crashed to the ground and were strewn around it like hacked-off limbs. I had been told that only a week ago one of its dead branches had broken loose in a storm and struck a little girl of five, killing her. I remembered the old doll seller, who had stood beside me, holding a pole against his shoulder on which hollow plastic dolls with painted faces had hung from strings. His gray beard had been filled with dirt; wrinkles reached into his eyes. "It was touched by the evil eye," he told me in a hushed voice. At dawn, the following morning, as I stood on the deck of the houseboat, watching the sun rise, the Dal became ethereal, silver with drops of golden sunlight twinkling along its still water. The first rays of the sun streaked the sky behind Hari Parbat. Then the sound of the first azan arose from a mosque on the hill. It was soon joined by the sound of the first ardas from a Gurudwara also on the hill. Filled with a sense of divine unity, I wondered if the prayer generated from this elemental euphony would be powerful enough to one day negate the touch of the evil eye. Meena Nayak is writing a childrenﾒs book about Indian historical legends which will be published by Penguin India. Steve McCurry's photographs of have appeared in magazines and books including his own South Southeast, published by Phaidon. StatCounter - Free Web Tracker and Counter -- From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Wed Sep 17 09:17:40 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 08:47:40 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] kashmiriyat by Meena Arora Nayak In-Reply-To: <47e122a70809162002t2a8f480bnbf83ced01f9a9006@mail.gmail.com> References: <47e122a70809162002t2a8f480bnbf83ced01f9a9006@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690809162047o3b123a40jf504307b11f086f4@mail.gmail.com> Notion of Azadi and Kashmiriyat 01-09-2008 U Mahesh Prabhu Link - http://blogs.expressindia.com/showblogdetails.php?contentid=355989 Much is being written about the current state of affairs in Kashmir. The 'Azadi' of Kashmir and independence to 'Kashmiriyat', is being spoken of. But what Azadi are they dreaming about? And which Kashmiriyat are they talking of? Have Hindus no share of that Kashmiriyat, on the basis of which separatists are demanding an 'independent' state for themselves? Which Kashmiriyat are they talking about—is it 500 or 5,000 years old? That was the time when everyone in Kashmir was a Hindu. The separatists in the valley today, tend to forget, and are even motivated to forget, the fact that they are descendants of Hindu ancestors. In Kashmir, like in the rest of the country, Hindus and Muslims have the same ancestors, share the same history, the same culture, and the same land. Therefore, nationalism is also the same. If that be so, then, how can ancestors change with change in religion and mode of worship? Can it be construed that wherever Muslims are in majority they will have their separate nationalism and get delinked from India? I assume it to be so. This is the bitter truth about history and it has to be accepted. The history of the world is replete with events illustrating that whenever Muslims are in majority, fundamentalism has raised its head—giving birth to separatist ideas. According to political pundits and philosophers all over the world, national unity and separatism are two different and completely opposing elements. Paucity in the outlook of nationalism breeds regionalism which gives birth to separatism. A powerful feeling of nationalism is the right weapon for ending separatism. The reason the poison of separatism has spread over many regions in India is due to the lack of a feeling of oneness—of being one nation. In reality, when India achieved independence, the lawmakers should have framed the constitution on the basis of the nation and its culture. But the thought hardly crossed anyone's mind. The result was that national outlook was eclipsed because educational and economic policies remained divided in many social and political groups. Blind imitation of the western pattern remained the base of our policies. Everything related to British imperialism was considered supreme and we even visualized and understood the nation and nationalism through the eyes of the west. Deliberately, British historians presented, in a twisted form, our national history, national culture, and national outlook, for their selfish political interest and in becoming victims of their conspiracy we relinquished our ancient glory. The result was that community, region, sect, and language, pushed back nationalism. The problems of not just Kashmir, but also Assam, are its products. Nationalism cannot be born without understanding national culture. Right from the beginning, India has remained as one nation, one people and one culture. According to Indian philosophy, nation is a cultural unit which can be only developed—not constructed. In the west, however, nation has been merged with the Government which has been considered a political unit. Culture unites people and politics disintegrates them. Therefore, so long as the nation remained linked with culture, this country stayed united; but when western political influence became dominant, it gave birth to the country's disintegration. This is also a misfortune of Kashmir. As long as the high ideals of nation and national culture remained dominant, religious activities remained linked with the Indian nation. But when religion was brought into politics and the concept of an ethnic state developed, it paved the way for separatism in Kashmir. The modes of worship born and developed in Kashmir—which include snake worship, Shaivism, Buddhism, and Vaishnavism—never came into conflict with one another because they remained linked with Indian nationalism. Even foreign rulers like Kanishka and Mihir, who belonged to the Kushan and Hun sects respectively, had accepted Buddhism and Shaivism and while Indianising their sect had merged into the Indian national mainstream. The advent of Islam in Kashmir, on the other hand, gave birth to inter-sectarian conflict, religious conversion, and separatism. The reason was clear—because fundamental Islam does not permit its follower to get linked with any country and its national culture. Whenever there is Muslim majority, there should be an Islamic state. Pakistan too, is the result of this opinion. The forcible religious conversion of Hindus in Kashmir and then their mass exodus are the offshoots of this anti-national trend thriving in the valley. The Muslims in the valley should understand that by joining Pakistan or by remaining independent, they will neither remain safe nor can they protect their idea of Kashmiriyat. Their Islamic principles too will remain safe in the Kashmiriyat based on the culture of their ancestors. The amount of religious freedom that exists in Indian culture is found nowhere. The dream of an independent Kashmir, too, is unrealistic and Pakistan would never tolerate this. It will not give any military or economic aid. What do they have to give? Hitherto, several thousand crores of rupees have been spent on development of Kashmir by India and all this will be stopped with de-accession. Kashmir's tourism industry, economic development, and geographical security, are secure because of India, and not due to Pakistan. Let's not forget that fact. The only solution, I foresee, to the Kashmir problem is if our Kashmiri Muslim brothers link themselves, like other Indians, with the national mainstream. The Government of India needs to adopt solid steps for resolving the problem after accepting it as a national issue and realization of its earlier mistakes. But the misfortune of this country is that the politics of vote come in the way of acceptance of mistakes. It is because of this that the history of mistakes and foolishness keeps on repeating itself in this land. There is a need for national consensus on protection of Kashmir which is possible only if all political parties give up their selfish goals. But national consensus is not possible because of paucity of national outlook. When instead of the nation, eyes are fixed on power and vote banks, how can national outlook grow? Author is Fellow of Royal Asiatic Society of Great Britain and Ireland, London (UK). On 9/17/08, inder salim wrote: > > http://www.worldviewmagazine.com/issues/article.cfm?id=106&issue=25 > > KASHMIRIYAT > > An embracing spirit languishes like the dying chinar tree > > by Meena Arora Nayak > > Lal Chowk surprised me. Instead of crumbling stores, I saw in them > merchandise piled high. Instead of the evidence of battles, I saw > vendors and vehicles competing for street space. Instead of > fear-stricken people, I saw a crowded marketplace, brimming with > activity. When I expressed my surprise to Arshad, my escort, he told > me that the state officials repaired all damages almost overnight-a > ruse to convince the people or, perhaps, themselves that the situation > was just as repairable. As for the people in the market, he said, > "Life goes on. In fact, within 20 minutes of an incident every thing > goes back to normal. We have become so used to it." > > We bought the cheese and as we strolled through the crowds, we heard a > crash-thunderous-and the earth trembled under our feet. Within a > minute, everything changed. Bustling streets became fear-filled > confusion. Storekeepers pulled down shutters; vendors and vehicles > became entangled in flight; people ran in all directions, pushing > against each other, stumbling over wares laid out on sidewalks. As I > stood rooted to the ground, suspended in this surreal dimension, a > young woman ran past us, her bright yellow duppatta, which a minute > ago had probably covered her head in modesty, flying off her shoulder > in a trail of fire. > > Arshad and I began walking towards the site, shouldering our way past > people fleeing in the opposite direction. "What do you think it was?" > I asked Arshad. "A police encounter? A terrorist's grenade?" > > "Not an encounter," he said. "No shots." He paused. "No screams. There > were no screams." > > As we turned the corner, a small crowd of men gathered around an > embankment. Leaving Arshad's side, I elbowed my way into the crowd, > determined to see the blatant tragedy of Kashmir. And there it was: a > chinar tree 20-some meters in height and 12-some meters in girth, > felled to the ground. Chinar is a Persian word meaning "what a fire." > In late autumn, the chinar bursts into flames, its palm-sized leaves > smoldering in colors from passionate purple to blazing red. In 1596, > the great Mughal Emperor of India, Akbar, planted the first grove of > chinars in a garden in Srinagar, the summer capital of Jammu and > Kashmir. Since then, the chinar in Kashmir has become a dominant > feature of the landscape, and its connotations have become an idiom > both artistic and dialectic. > > This is the story of Kashmir-the story of a dying civilization. > According to a Hindu legend, Kashmir was once a vast lake called > Satisar, inhabited by the Nagas, the snake people. Once upon a time, a > demon, Jaladeo, began terrorizing the Nagas, so they beseeched their > father, Sage Kashyap, to help. Kashyap, deciding to evoke the gods, > performed such severe penance that the heavens shook. Finally, Shiva > descended from Mount Kailash, his abode in the Himalayas, and rented > the mountainside with his mighty trident. All the water of Lake > Satisar drained out. Then Vishnu's consort, the goddess Laxmi (called > Sharda in Kashmir), took the shape of a hari or a mynah bird and > dropped on the demon's head a pebble, which penetrated his body and > grew to the size of a hill, encasing him in the rock. Thus, the hill > came to be known as Hari Parbat (Hari's Mount). In gratitude to > Kashyap, the site was called Kashyap Mir or Kashyap Mountain, which > has gradually corrupted to Kashmir. Over the years, the slopes of the > hill became enshrined with Hindu, Muslim and Sikh places of worship. > In the 16th century, Akbar constructed the Hari Parbat fort along the > top of the hill, enclosing the city of Srinagar in a citadel. > > Even before Akbar built his fort, Srinagar and the whole Kashmir > valley was already a citadel. Nestled securely between the lofty > Himalayan range in the north and the Pir Panjal in the south, the > 134-kilometer by 40-kilometer oval plane with its meandering rivers > and rippling lakes, rolling greens and flower-fragrant paths was a > citadel of Eden, a citadel for a way of life which the world would > never comprehend. Kashmiris call it Kashmiriyat. > > Kashmiriyat, when experienced as a culture, is so syncretic that it > inspires an epitomizing co-existence: man's oneness with man; man's > oneness with nature. Kashmiriyat, when perceived as a faith, is an > amalgamation of four great traditions: the aborigines' Shaivism, a > Hindu Monistic philosophy, and the disseminated wisdoms of Quran's > Erfan, Buddhism's Nirvana and Sikhism's Ek Onkar. > > Aside from being a fertile ground for missioners, Kashmir, being on > the Silk Route, was also an easy target for invaders who were > sometimes benevolent but often tyrannical. This constant shift in > allegiance taught Kashmiris the attitude of Kashmiriyat. No matter who > or what the monarch, the people of Kashmir knew survival could only be > through seamless co-existence. One of the reasons for such integration > was Kashmir's insular geography, which buffered most disruptive > influences. However, when the modern world's demarcation made Kashmir > a strategic vantage point, the permeation of outside antagonisms in > Kashmir's society was inevitable. > > In 1947, the year of India's partition, Kashmir emerged from the > shifting tides of international politics as the invidious prize for > both India and Pakistan. At that time, Kashmir was ruled by a Hindu > king, but the majority of its population was Muslim. According to the > precepts of the British two-nation theory, Kashmir belonged to > Pakistan. However, Kashmir's Sufi Islam was hardly the Sunna- and > Sharia-based Islam of Pakistan, so the Raja entered a stand-still > agreement with both countries. Pakistan grew impatient and sent its > troops and warlords into Kashmir, forcing the hand of the Raja, who > appointed Sheikh Abdullah-a popular and trusted leader of the > Kashmiris-to negotiate the treaty of Kashmir's accession to India. > Thus it was that Kashmir became a part of India-but with reservation. > Article 370 of the Instrument of Accession gave Kashmir > semi-autonomous status within India's constitutional framework and > promised the people of Kashmir a plebiscite. The article guaranteed > the survival of Kashmiriyat in Kashmir, but it also became Kashmir's > albatross. > > Imbued with this special status, Kashmir jealously protected its > autonomy. Consequently, the central government in Delhi pumped into > the region special food and resource subsidies but otherwise felt no > real need to be actively involved in the region's affairs. The > government of India did very little to monitor the state's > administrative and legislative machinery. With money pouring in > through the subsidies, the highly profitable tourism industry and the > farming of such cash crops as fruits, walnuts and saffron, corruption > was a natural result. Bribery took root early in Sheikh Abdullah's > 20-year administration and burgeoned into a full-fledged orgy when the > regime of his son, Farukh Abdullah, began in the mid-1980s. > > Civil lawlessness now reigns supreme in Kashmir. Investments, > development contracts, higher education and employment are all > privileges of the venal, while the ordinary Kashmiri is brick-walled. > Who is held responsible for the failed system? The situation. > Terrorism. > > A disillusioned young rickshaw driver revealed the Sophoclean irony of > this inverted truth to me on my way to Chirar-I-Sharif, the shrine of > the Sufi saint Nur-ud-din Wali. He was a first-class graduate of > Srinagar's college of agriculture. "When I couldn't get a job, > militancy became the only option. Everyone knows how much they > (Pakistan's intelligence service) pay for young recruits. I tried > going to the other side, but my guide abandoned me in the mountains > and I returned home. I have a widowed mother and two sisters. Although > I can barely feed them with this job, I consider myself lucky. If I > had joined militancy…" > > Kashmir's reversal of fate was sealed in 1987 when various Muslim > groups with an affinitive bias toward the Islamization of Pakistan's > military dictator Zia-ul-Haque formed a coalition called the Muslim > United Front. Haque's orthodoxy, drawing its inspiration from the > Ayatollah's experiments in Iran, promised a lawful land practicing > Quranic principles of governance and personal ethics. The frustrated > youth of Kashmir were ready and willing to surrender Kashmiriyat to > law and polity, even if it meant living in a polarized society. Muslim > United Front drew such unprecedented support from the people of > Kashmir that Farukh Abdullah feared defeat in that year's elections, > so he formed a coalition with India's ruling Congress party. Doubtful > of the coalition's victory, Farukh and Delhi orchestrated guarantees. > The election was blatantly rigged. Members of the Muslim United Front > watched as election booths were vandalized, votes were miscounted and > polling agents were beaten and jailed. > > Kashmir erupted in riots and a wayward spirit entered the hearts of > people. It was the spirit of revolution. The former pleas for > plebiscite- Hum kya chahte hai? Rai shumari!-turned to chants for > azadi or freedom. Mothers urged their sons to beckon to the call; > schoolteachers stopped teaching math and history, and began talking to > their students about freedom and liberty. And Pakistan-with its > tantalizing promises of money and training camps-became the much > needed "helping hand" or, as India liked to call it, the "foreign > hand." Young Muslim men from all over the valley openly crossed the > Line of Control in throngs: Local bus drivers announcing two > towns-"Sopur, Kapur"-defiantly added "Upper" to indicate their > destination was on the other side of the mountains. > > Of those 18 Muslim United Front polling agents, five joined the Jammu > and Kashmir Liberation Front, 12 joined the Hizb ul Mujahideen and one > enlisted with the Islamic Student's Federation. The gun had entered > the valley. Its first victim: Kashmiriyat. > > Bashir Ahmad, a third generation weaver of pashmina shawls, is a > witness. Most of Bashir's business used to come directly from tourists > and merchants in Jammu. The tourists stopped visiting and the shawls > stopped selling. "Today, even if we can sell them in Jammu, it is at > the cost of our pride. They don't trust us any more." He told me how a > few years ago, he sent a shipment of pure pashmina shawls to a Jammu > dealer he knew well, but when he went to collect the payment, he only > received half of what was owed him. The dealer accused him of mixing > wool yarn with pashmina thread. > > "Weaving is an ibadat," Bashir told me, "an act of worship. Weavers > have a patron Sufi saint who demands honesty in ibadat. Believe me, in > this business, if you are not honest, you will not be able to survive > for more than a few years. We have been weavers for over 100 years. > This situation has made my ancestors cheats." > > This mistrust has soured not just business relationships, but also > relationships of the heart. > > Shahid sahib, my host, shared his pain with me one afternoon. Before > the Kashmiri Hindus, or Pundits, as they are called, fled the valley, > fearing the fanatic implications of the Islamic insurgency, Shahid > sahib used to have a very close Hindu friend in his neighborhood. > > "Kaul and I used to play chess in the evening. His board used to sit > in my living room. We would play in my house and, most evenings, go to > his house for dinner. His mother was an excellent cook. I loved her > like a mother. Then rumors of a Muslim militancy began to spread. But > there was no real incident. However, I was worried about my friend and > his family, so I told them that if anything happened, they could count > on me. A couple of days later, Kaul came to ask for his chessboard and > the following morning they were gone. The next thing we know, the > media is splashed with atrocities the Muslims had supposedly committed > against their Hindu neighbors-women raped, men tortured and killed, > children brutally murdered, houses looted. These were stories that > included my neighborhood. Right here where I live. How is it that I > didn't see anything?" > > When I asked him if he still believed in Kashmiriyat, his eyes filled > with tears. "No one talks about Kashmiriyat any more. Maybe it was > always a myth, an illusion we had mistaken as truth." > > "But do you believe in it?" I insisted. > > "If anything had happened, I would have protected Kaul and his family > with my life." > > Whether the grievances of the Muslims are real or imagined, whether > the Pundits fled due to a situation that was real or imagined, hardly > seems the point now. The fact is that the ordinary Kashmiri Muslim saw > the Pundits' leaving as a betrayal of Kashmiriyat. > > While I talked to Shahid sahib, his seven-year-old grandson came into > the room. I dug out two candy bars from my bag to give to him. When > Burhan saw his grandfather's tears, he emphatically stated that > Kashmir should become a part of Pakistan. > > "Why?" I asked him. > > "Because we are Musalmaan." > > "But do you know that India has many many Musalmaan?" > > "Yes, but there are also Hindus. I don't like Hindus." > > "Why?" > > "They're not nice. They tell lies." > > I asked him what he thought of me-whether I was nice or not. > > "Very nice," he said, biting into his chocolate. > > "So, do you think I am a Hindu or a Musalmaan?" > > Without hesitation, he said, "Musalmaan." > > I couldn't resist telling the little boy that I was a Hindu, but I > regretted the impulse almost immediately, because Burhan looked at his > grandfather with bewilderment and his own sense of betrayal. > > In fact, betrayal is the theme song of Kashmir's tragedy. Ever since > 1947, the Kashmiris have been suffering one betrayal after another. > The promise of the plebiscite was never fulfilled. Waiting for its > realization, the people of Kashmir never identified with India and, > thus, remained bereft of a national identity. Compounding this > estrangement was Delhi's repeated condoning of corruption in the guise > of secularism and democracy. > > When embittered Kashmiris turned to Pakistan after the 1987 elections > fraud, Pakistan's intelligence service gathered the Kashmiris in an > embrace of pretended sympathy. For a while, Kashmiris saw the > Pakistani agents as fellow Muslims ready to fight for their brethren, > and freedom in the Kashmiri psyche became synonymous with the fanatic > elements of that agency. > > However, within a few years the people of Kashmir realized that > Pakistan had invoked insurgency in Kashmir not for the Kashmiris' > right for self-determination but for the establishment of an Islamic > world-order. Their cause for freedom had been sabotaged and turned > murderously against their own people. What was worse was that > Kashmir's grassroots revolutionaries became indistinguishable from the > terrorists of foreign nations. This fight had become a > free-for-all-Afghanis, Pakistanis, Sudanese, jihadis, freedom > fighters, bounty hunters. However, by then it was too late. India had > already raised its flag of nationalism against Kashmir's separatist > movement. India began to send in its security forces who, under the > Armed Forces Special Power Act, started their own reign of terror, > interrogating civilians at gunpoint and torturing and killing others > on mere suspicion. The cause that had begun as a freedom movement > turned into a fractured war against military occupation. > > Even if Kashmir is not fighting a conventional war, it is a war zone. > There are approximately 700,000 Indian military personnel from five > different brigades posted in Kashmir at all times. Not only is the > border lined thickly with Indian and Pakistani armies, but the towns > look like combat zones. Gun-toting soldiers are everywhere-patrolling > gardens, parks, lakesides, and even places of worship. Traffic in the > streets is often stalled to allow the lumbering, armored vehicles of > war to make their rounds. In Srinagar, there is a military bunker > every 200 meters, complete with sandbags, chains and soldiers flashing > AK-47s. Roadside checks have become routine. Anywhere, anytime, public > busses and private cars can be stopped and thoroughly inspected, and > the passengers rigorously questioned. There is no official curfew in > Srinagar, but after eight in the evening, the city becomes a shadowy > ghost town of stray dogs and security guards. Every corner is a > nucleus of suspicion and every military bunker an interrogation cell. > If you are not able to provide identification, or if you resist in any > manner, may God help you. > > "What can they do to you?" I asked Arshad one evening when we were > caught in this nightmare. > > "Young men disappear in Kashmir every day. Sometimes people find their > bodies-in lakes or on river banks; other times they just vanish." > > I remembered a wailing mother in Hazrat Bal, the mosque where a strand > of Prophet Mohammed's hair is enshrined. She had been circumambulating > the sanctum sanctorum, kissing every latticed window, leaving a trail > of tears all along the marble walls. Upon my asking, she had told me > her son had disappeared. > > Dr. G.Q. Allaquabad, a leading Kashmiri psychiatrist, says today > Kashmir's entire population suffers from depression. And it isn't just > the Kashmiris who are susceptible; the soldiers posted in Kashmir are > also weary and homesick. In Zaina Kadal, a riot-prone neighborhood, I > talked to a soldier standing beside a bunker with Mera Bharat Mahan > (My India is Great) written on its side in large red letters. The > soldier was a little wary but willing to talk. He told me he was from > a village near Bombay and that he had been stationed in Kashmir for > five years. "My son was born in my absence," he said with a sadness in > his eyes. "I see him when I go home on leave, but I miss him." I asked > him if he was afraid for his life, since military units were the > terrorists' main targets. "There's always a fear, but I'm a soldier. I > go wherever my country needs me." I asked him then if he was aware > that the people of Kashmir were sick of India and it military's > presence. His manner changed suddenly. "We are here for their > protection," he said in a tone of a programmed machine. > > According to the people of Kashmir, they never needed military > protection against their own militants. No Kashmiri blamed them for > taking up the gun. Besides, they believe that all Kashmiris who were > alleged terrorists are either dead or reformed. There are certainly > foreign nationals still operating in the valley, and no amount of > security seems to prevent their infiltration across the border. The > Kashmiris say that is because the real terrorists have always been and > still are India and Pakistan, and they don't want the conflict to end. > > When Kashmir's trouble began, the governments of both India and > Pakistan exploited communal sentiments by feeding the public rumors of > ethnic cleansing. Aside from engaging domestic public opinion, both > governments realized that they could use Kashmir to clean their image > in the world's view. Pakistan surmised it could ﾑcry wolf' and acquire > large amounts foreign aid to keep its military well-equipped against > its warring neighbor, India; and the Indian politicians discovered > they could absolve themselves of all sins, including going nuclear, by > citing victimization by Pakistan-sponsored terrorism. The Kashmir > conflict has become such a raison d'￪tre for their hostility that one > wonders what both countries will use as a stratagem if the Kashmir > question were diplomatically settled. > > "It'll never be resolved as long as we are caught between their > quarrels. The only solution is for India to cut us loose and for > Pakistan to stop interfering in our bid for freedom," Shahid sahib > told me, echoing the sentiment of many Kashmiris. > > A free Kashmir? The most poignant tragedy of this elusive desire is > that Kashmir is almost incapable of survival as an independent nation. > The people of Kashmir are aware of this, yet they crave it. For most > of its post-1947 life, Kashmir has lived on subsidies from India. Over > the years, the agriculture department replaced the farming of staple > crops like rice and wheat with revenue-generating cash crops like > saffron and fruits and walnuts. Consequently, Kashmir today imports > most of its rice, wheat and vegetables from other Indian states. It > would take Kashmir years to restructure its agriculture in order to > feed its people. The tourism industry, which used to be the backbone > of Kashmir's economy, is non-existent today. Freedom for Kashmir would > also mean a constant threat from its powerful neighbors, India, > Pakistan, China and Russia. For the simple Kashmiri, however, freedom > merely means the return of Kashmiriyat and a simple faith in God's > benevolence. > Sitting in the verdant green lawns of the Jama Masjid, enjoying the > afternoon sun, four young friends who make a living by spinning > pashmina thread, talked to me about azadi and what it meant to them. > Irshada, one of the women said, "It is the right to live our lives > like ordinary people." > > When I asked her what her definition of an ordinary life was, she > blushed and looked at her friends. Her friend, Sumaira, who, > incidentally, is the sister of the man Irshada hopes to marry, said, > "she wants to marry the man of her choice." > > "And have a family and enough money to live a comfortable life," > Irshada shyly added. > > "Azadi means no violence, no Indian presence, no Pakistani presence. > Just us. Kashmiris," Sumaira said. > > "And no Pundits?" I asked. > > "They will come back once we have azadi. This is their Kashmir, too. > We want them to come back." > > "And there would be no trouble between the communities after all that > has happened?" > > "Have you heard about Kashmir's Kashmiriyat?" Irfana, the unsmiling > one asked me. > > I told her I had, but I wanted to hear her version of it. > > "We used to have a Musalmaan ruler a long time ago-hundreds of years > ago-whose governor was so cruel he used to tie up Hindus in gunny > sacks and drown them in the Dal Lake. Most Hindus fled from Kashmir at > that time. Then another Musalmaan ruler came to rule Kashmir. His name > was Zain-al-Abdin. He invited the Hindus back and appointed them to > high positions in his kingdom. He helped them rebuild their temples > and celebrated their festivals with them. The Kashmiris learnt so much > from him, they called him Budshah (great king). He taught us all to > love our land-our Kashmir-and to live together as Kashmiris. That is > Kashmiriyat." > > "It's still there," Irfana added. "Kashmiriyat is still there. "It's > hard to see it these days, because of the violence, but it's there-in > the hearts of all the Kashmiris." > > Irshada smiled at me and said with a faith so firm I envied her, > "We'll be fine when we get azadi. Allah tallah will look after all of > us." > > I came to Kashmir as a Hindu to reaffirm my faith before an image of > Shiva which is found in a cave near Srinagar. Instead, I tied threads > of hope on the lattice work of Makhdoom Sahib and Dastgir Sahib > mosques, rubbed my nose in the dirt of Chhati Padshahi Gurudwara and > rang bells of peace at the Chos Khor Buddhist monastery. I had become > a pilgrim who questioned the silence of these silent guardians of > Kashmiriyat. Irshada's simple faith restored my hope for Kashmiriyat's > survival, so I decided to spend my last day in Kashmir as I would have > back in the days when Kashmiriyat was not just in the hearts of the > people but roamed free in the streets. I rented a houseboat for the > evening to watch the sun rise on the Dal Lake. > > Sitting on the deck that evening, watching the long twilight linger on > the Dal, I heard shots in the distance. > > "An encounter?" I asked Aslam, the houseboat owner. > > "No, no. Only some tourists playing with firecrackers. Don't let it > worry you. You enjoy your evening." But I knew he lied. I asked him > what he thought of the situation. > > "Death," he said, lighting his 10th cigarette of the evening. "We will > die, either from a terrorist's gun or from being caught in the > crossfire. If not that, then from a heart attack brought on by the > tension of a failing business." > > "Whom do you blame?' I asked. > > He shook his head. "Kashmir has been touched by an evil eye." > > I remembered the chinar I had seen on my first day in Srinagar. A tree > removal team from the garden and parks department had felled it. It > was dying. Nobody really knew the cause. "It was the heavy traffic. > The pollution," a bystander had told me. "Some bug was eating away at > its insides," another one said. "It's greed," a dapper young man > dressed impeccably in khaki trousers and a bright white shirt had > stated. "They need the space for more business construction." The > chinar was obviously dying. I remembered seeing the peeling scabs on > its once-smooth bark and fissures in the circular age lines in the > massive hollow trunk. Some of its branches, dry and brittle, had > snapped when it had crashed to the ground and were strewn around it > like hacked-off limbs. I had been told that only a week ago one of its > dead branches had broken loose in a storm and struck a little girl of > five, killing her. I remembered the old doll seller, who had stood > beside me, holding a pole against his shoulder on which hollow plastic > dolls with painted faces had hung from strings. His gray beard had > been filled with dirt; wrinkles reached into his eyes. > > "It was touched by the evil eye," he told me in a hushed voice. > > At dawn, the following morning, as I stood on the deck of the > houseboat, watching the sun rise, the Dal became ethereal, silver with > drops of golden sunlight twinkling along its still water. The first > rays of the sun streaked the sky behind Hari Parbat. Then the sound of > the first azan arose from a mosque on the hill. It was soon joined by > the sound of the first ardas from a Gurudwara also on the hill. Filled > with a sense of divine unity, I wondered if the prayer generated from > this elemental euphony would be powerful enough to one day negate the > touch of the evil eye. > > Meena Nayak is writing a childrenﾒs book about Indian historical > legends which will be published by Penguin India. Steve McCurry's > photographs of have appeared in magazines and books including his own > South Southeast, published by Phaidon. StatCounter - Free Web Tracker > and Counter > > > -- > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Wed Sep 17 09:20:00 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 08:50:00 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Kashmiriyat minus Kashmiri Pandits Message-ID: <6353c690809162050x43904f10n920baa73a326a4a6@mail.gmail.com> Kashmiriyat minus Kashmiri Pandits by Autar Krishan Lidhoo Link - http://www.merinews.com/catFull.jsp?articleID=134756 THE ABORIGINES of Kashmir - the community of Kashmiri Pandits (KPs), it is said, had a glorious past with a rich history of over 5000 years. However, during the past 18 years, the community stands nowhere on the Kashmir soil. It has become rootless and its rich history now appears to be almost lost, with the new generation of Kashmiri Muslims even unaware of a community called Kashmiri Pandits. Is this the concept of Kashmiriyat, which President Pratibha Patil talked about as a living legend during her just concluded visit to the Valley? About two decades back, this was not the case. The multi-ethnic culture was what Kashmir was known for but now it is the other way around. It is the ugly side of Kashmir. There is unfortunately no one amongst the old lot mustering courage to tell the new generation of Kashmiri Muslims as to, who the KPs - locally known as 'Battas'- were and how they talked, moved, studied and tutored fellow Kashmiris. Now the new generation of both the communities are faced with a cultural and generational gap. It could be possibly because of this reason that an Institute of Kashmir Studies (IKS) was inaugurated in the Kashmir University by President Patil on May 26. In the inaugural address, she talked highly about the amalgam of pristine beauty, enchanting landscape, rich culture, and seat of learning and a melting pot of ideas. She said, Kashmir has lived as the finest centre of learning. She talked about cultural cohesion and contributions of various spiritual and philosophical saints and seers to Kashmiriyat. But Patil seems to have forgotten the hard fact that the Pandits, who were once an important component of the legacy of Kashmiriyat, are now nowhere on the canvas of Kashmir. Is this the concept of Kashmiriyat (minus Kashmiri Pandits) she was referring to? A big contradiction. The President was absolutely right when she recalled the contributions of great Kashmiris of yesteryears like Charaka, Bhartrihari, Bilhana and Kalhana and all those saints and sages, who lived in Kashmir, the 'Reshiwari' - an abode of sages. But then that was the concept of Kashmiriyat of yesteryear. Now this concept seems to have changed for the moment. It is now Kashmir minus the KPs. One has to accept this reality. The IKS will recall and work on the dead but what about those, who are dying every day away from Kashmir? The circumstances have forced the Kashmiri Pandits to get scattered, forget the roots and everything linked with Kashmir. The irony is that the future generation cannot speak and understand their own mother-tongue. The reason being that in culturally alien places, there is no one to teach them Kashmiri, which they want to speak. They are forced to live in exile and go for intercaste marriages. The elders and middle-aged community members, who want to go back are told that situation is not yet ripe for their so-called honourable return. Isnt it a genocide and annihilation of the culture and the community? Where is then the concept of Kashmiriyat everybody talks about? The new generation of Kashmiri Muslims, brought up during the past 20 years in a society sans KPs, is unfortunately unaware of the ethos and culture of the Pandits. They are not to be blamed for it. So is the case with the exiled KP generation, whose young ones have unwillingly got amalgamated with other cultures. Then what is this legacy of the so-called Kashmiriyat? Kashmiriyat now needs to be redefined since it misses the important component - KPs. Now there are no sages and saints in Kashmir. No Charaka or Bilhana or, for that matter, Kalhana to write a new chapter of Rajtarangni. From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Wed Sep 17 09:24:23 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 08:54:23 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?The_construct_of_=91Kashmiriyat=92?= =?windows-1252?q?_It_is_a_mix_of_two_ideologies_which_makes_it_to_?= =?windows-1252?q?stand_somewhere_outside_Islam=2C_analyses_Suhail_?= =?windows-1252?q?Showkeen_=93Kashmiriyat=94_is_a_word_in_vogue=2E_?= =?windows-1252?q?Letters_and_articles_are_written_regarding_it=2E_?= =?windows-1252?q?Books_and_magazines_are_published?= Message-ID: <6353c690809162054q2f7d9edaia6ccfb3b5b5aa0dc@mail.gmail.com> *The construct of 'Kashmiriyat'* It is a mix of two ideologies which makes it to stand somewhere outside Islam, analyses Suhail Showkeen "Kashmiriyat" is a word in vogue. Letters and articles are written regarding it. Books and magazines are published for its promotion and propagation and media is also used to disseminate the theory of "Kashmiriyat". A number of articles have appeared and are still appearing in this newspaper by different authors giving different definitions of this term. But one thing which is common in all these definitions is that the very term "Kashmiriyat consists of the inevitable elements–secularism and nationalism and without these two constituent elements the "concept of Kashmiriyat" cannot be conceived. In other words, "Kashmiriyat" is nothing but a hotchpotch of these two ideologies. As Muslims it is obligatory on us to judge both of these ideologies with true Islamic perspective so that we may be in a position to accept or reject the same. So in order to form any opinion regarding "Kashmiriyat", it is necessary that the above-mentioned two ideologies should be dealt with in detail. First comes the ideology of "Secularism". In simple words, secularism is a principle of separation of religion from politics and this separation is one of the greatest tragedies in human life. It has reduced religion to become a private affair between an individual and God. It has also deprived man of the invaluable guidance of religion in social and collective affairs. It made ruthless inroads into religion. It gainsays all the moral values and declares them to be only relative in character. By virtue of this "Ism", the man lost the real hold of things and began to shape his own career with complete disregard to the divine guidance and thus, became an objective slave of his own passions and desires. Renaissance brought in its wake this concept of "secularism". What was done actually is that a line of demarcation was drawn arbitrarily by the men at the helm of renaissance forces, cynically allotting to Christianity merely a tiny niche of human life in the shape of Sunday service in the Church and of the rites of birth and marriage and of burial on death. This new concept of "secularism" was liberal enough to allow Christianity only a peripheral existence, and too a din, pale and divorced existence from the storm and stress of life. Consequently, Christianity lost its hold and grip for the political and collective affairs of man and was left merely as a dogma and a ritual. On the contrary Islam as a complete divine way of life i.e. "Ad-Deen" demands full and complete subservience on part of its followers. It strongly negates rather condemns this so-called separation of religion from politics. It demands complete implementation in every aspect of life whether private, collective, social, economic or political. As Allah (SWT) says: "The religion before Allah is only Islam" (Al-Qur'an, 3:19). "If anyone desires a Deen other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him; and in the hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost" (Al-Qur'an, 3:85). "O you who believe! Enter into Islam wholeheartedly; and do not follow the footsteps of the evil one" (AL-Baqarah, 2:208). "This day I have perfected your Deen for you, completed my favour upon you and have chosen for you Islam as your Deen". (Al-Maidah, 5:3). Allama Iqbal (RA) has rightly said: "I behold the politics of secularism, the maid of evil, of low nature an dead conscience". The great scholar and jurist of contemporary times Dr. Allama Yousuf-Al Qardawi regards belief in secularism as blasphemy (Fatawa, Vol: 1, page No. 70). The second fundamental element of this "Kashmiriyat" is nationalism. Nationalism, in simple words is a social attitude, which makes nation and nationality the over-mastering, centripetal force, to which must gravitate the whole fabric of society. In nationalism, nation is the master of the people. Sovereignty vests in nation. The greatest virtue is to sacrifice for the nation and the greatest crime is to go against it. The expression "my nation, right or wrong" is redolent of a nationalist mind. This redolence we can clearly see in the following sayings – Mazzini, the protagonist of romantic or liberal nationalism, could not refrain from asserting that "the destinies of Italy are the destinies of the world". Fichte went much further about Germany and said: "It is first of all the Germans who are called upon to begin the new era as pioneers and models for the rest of mankind." (Freedom and Organization by Bertrand Russell, pp 405). He further says: "to have character and to be German undoubtedly mean one and the some thing". (Ibid, pp 407). Now every sane person can assess what sort of disaster this type of biased and fanatic ideology can bring to the humanity, as it did in the past. This concept of nationalism proved a deathblow to the moral code and humanitarian view in one's individual and collective affairs. The idea of the unity of man was completely exploded. Humanity was divided into innumerable units and groups on the basis of homeland, language, colour, caste, race, class and community. This helped to create a number of prejudices. To quote Hans Kohan: "For nationalism represents "vested interests", not only political and economic but also intellectual and emotional, of an intensity and extent shown by no previous idea. In the face of the omnipotence of nationality, humanity seems a distant idea, a pale theory or a poetic dream through which the red blood of life does not pulsate". (The idea of nationalism, pp 21-22). Now, a far as the two systems – Islam and nationalism are concerned they stand poles apart. The idea of oneness of man is foreign to the modern society engulfed by nationalism. It has divided mankind into innumerable tiny compartments of nation, caste, colour, race etc. on the other hand Islam strongly believes in the oneness of man. According to Islam all men are the children of the same parents, Adam and Eve and hence, they are all brothers. The whole humanity is one family and the whole world is one home. The artificial walls erected by nationalism between man and man must therefore be razed to the ground and man must be freed from the tyrannies of division. Islam frees man from the bondage of his own passions and desires, from the tradition and customs and from the clutches of other men, nation or other demigods. In short it frees man from the bondage of man. Allah (SWT) says: "O mankind! Be careful to your duty to your lord who created you from a single soul and from it created its mate and from them twain hath spread abroad a multitude of men and women." (An-Nisa 4:1) "And He it is who hath produced you from a single being, and (hath given you) a habitation and repository." (Al An'aam 6:98) say (O Muhammad): O mankind! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah to you all". (Al-Aa'raf 7:158). "O mankind! Lo! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. Lo! The noblest of you, in the sight of Allah, is the best in conduct. (Al-Hujrat 49:13). In word and deed, our most respected and beloved Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was the perfect embodiment of the Qur'an and the final guide to the whole humanity (Kaafatan Naas). His sermon on the occasion of the last pilgrimage was a remarkable epitome of his ceaseless and indefatigable endeavour. He reminded the mammoth gathering before him that all human beings were born of Adam and Adam was born of dust, that the Arab and vice versa and that white people had no superiority over black people and vice-versa. He commissioned the concourse present there to convey this message to those who where not there. It was an address to humanity at large and it constituted the first and finest character of liberty, equality and freedom of man. May blessing of Allah and peace be upon Muhammad (SAW) – the real benefactor of humanity? It must be clear by now beyond any shadow of doubt that Islam stands of humanity, super-nationalism, internationalism and nationalism and categorically negates and opposes this "new European god" of Nationalism whether it is Racial, Linguistic, Roman, Democratic, Totalitarian or of any other type. Allama Iqbal (RA) is cent percent right when he says: "The greatest among fresh Gods is country, its apparel is the shroud of religion." (Bang-e-Dara). I have taken pains to discuss extensively these two modern ideologies so that we may be able to form an opinion about "Kashmiriyat" which is the hotch-potch of both these ideologies and is being foisted upon the minds of Kashmiri Muslims through electronic and print media. It is now proved beyond any doubt that this "Kashmiriyat" is an alien concept and it undoubtedly undermines the basic concepts of Islam on the one hand and on the other hand it is this tool of "Kashmiriyat" which has been used to sabotage the concept of unity among Muslims of the sub-continent. As "Kashmiryat" is undoubtedly an un-Islamic rather anti-Islamic ideology, so it is very strange on part of those "Muslims" who have devoted and are utilizing their capabilities in promotion and dissemination of this alien "secular and nationalistic" idea. I would like to conclude with the excerpt taken from the prophetic and pathetic speech delivered by Moulana Muhammad Ali Jauhar (RA) at the Round Table Conference in London in 1930, just a few days before death so that it may serve as an eye-opener for all the secular and nationalists of the world: "Many people in England ask us why this question of Hindu and Muslim comes into politics and what it has to do with these things. I reply, it is a wrong conception of religion that you have, it you exclude politics from it. It is not dogma, it is not ritual! Religion, to my mind, means the interpretation of life". I have a culture, a polity, an outlook on life – a complete synthesis which is Islam. Where God commands. I am a Muslim first, a Muslim second, and a Muslim last, and nothing but a Muslim… we are not nationalists but super-nationalists, and I as a Muslim say that "God made man and the devil made the nation." Nationalism divides, our religion binds. No religious wars, no crusades, have been such holocausts and have been so cruel as your last war, and that was a war of your nationalism and not my Jehad" (Pakistan Movement Historic Documents by G Allama 1968 Edition, Pages 81-832) Seeing Kashmiriyat through this perspective will not mislead us any further. From rohitism at gmail.com Wed Sep 17 09:26:21 2008 From: rohitism at gmail.com (Rohit Shetti) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 09:26:21 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi In-Reply-To: <724206.64798.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <32144e990809160555l1ddc587dm6b0af067ccaa323d@mail.gmail.com> <724206.64798.qm@web57201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I think definitions of terror and violence do need greater discussion and it would be great to have common and deeper understandings. Though I totally condemn violence in the forms of killings, bombings, etc .. there is a lot of other violence which we see in the world which are not direct, but could have lasting effects. Isn't industrialisation violence? Isn't the dominant paradigm of development violence? Aren't dams and road-widening projects and embankements on rivers violence? Isn't dumping of plastic or wastage of water violence? What is the impact of these violences or excesses? And finally is there any hierarchy of violence? These questions make me mad... and I wonder if it will go to the extent of making me numb one day. R On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 7:13 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Partha > > Not much difference in how you and I see it as far as this topic is > concerned. You have only added worthwhile elements to my discussions with my > own self. > > You have been quite clear in stating how you view things and also in > stating what you are uncertain about. So, no apologies needed. > > When it comes to conviction of certainities, I am attitudinally an > agnostic. I love and feed off intelligent vagueness. It provides the spark, > the catalyst and the drive for the "search". In that is the hope that one > will understand a bit more, discover a bit more. > > Kshmendra > > --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > From: Partha Dasgupta > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 6:25 PM > > > > Dear Kshmendra, > > > The questions you have asked about 'what is terror', etc is something I > would not like to elaborate on as each has his/her own interpretation. > > > Bhagat Singh is a freedom fighter as far as we Indians are concerned, but > for the govt of the day he was a terrorist. There is no 'standard' > definition of what a terrorist is and each person / entity would translate > the word in their own way. > > > As for defining LTTE as Hindu terrorists - guess that question is wide open > depending upon what we use as the pointer. If the primary factor is what > religion / group do they belong to, then we'd have a ready answer. > > > If, however, we look beyond and try to identify the aim / purpose behind > the conflict, there'd be another answer all together - some of them not very > clear. > > > Even if a 'terrorist' follows a ideology/religion/place/societal group - > that's a personal root that s/he has. It does not follow that all people of > the ideology/religion/place/societal group follow the same radical > conclusion. > > > Guess we could go on and on - fact is that we'll all equate the phrase > 'terrorist' from our personal point of view and experiences. > > > Apologies for sounding vague, but you started a line of thought that I'd > never really looked at before. > > > Rgds, Partha > ................................. > > > On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 5:07 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: > > > > > > > Dear Partha > > My questioning of the LTTE being called Hindu was to help me in my > discussions with my own self. > > I am still struggling in my mind over 'what is terror'; 'who is a > terrorist'; 'when should an organisation (or a system) be called a terrorist > one' and 'when should an act of terror, or a terrorist, or a terrorist > organisation be identified with an ideology/religion/place/societal group'. > > There is total agreement with your words: > > > """""" The terrorist may belong to any religion or caste or place or > whatever - however, lumping all the people of that religion or caste or > place as terrorists because one or some people from that group performed > 'acts of terrorism' is not justifiable.""""""" > > Kshmendra > > > > > > --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > From: Partha Dasgupta > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 9:37 AM > > > > > > > Dear Kshmendra, > > > Studied in Baroda / Vadodra and saw communal rights flare up on > the weirdest of reasons. Have seen a close friend who wouldn't kill > cockroaches try to burn a bus in the frenzy of a mob. > > > As for defining the LTTE as Hindu - my point is different, and is something > I have mentioned earlier. The terrorist may belong to any religion or caste > or place or whatever - however, lumping all the people of that religion or > caste or place as terrorists because one or some people from that group > performed 'acts of terrorism' is not justifiable. > > > In short, am against the mass generalization wherein we identify an entire > group a 'terrorists'. > > > To put it the other way around, am a Hindu, but do not identify with the > demolition of the Babri Masjid or the attacks on Christians that is > happening. Just a personal belief, but if any person is converting to > another faith for benefits accrued then obviously his faith wasn't strong in > the first place & s/he won't be much of a loss. > > > Rgds, Partha > ....................................... > > > On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 7:17 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: > > Dear Partha > > Do not mean to butt in. > > Just wondering whether any 'acts of terrorrising' by the LTTE can be > designated as 'acts of terrorising' by Hindus. > > Would it not be more apt to link 'acts of terror' with a religious identity > when such 'acts of terror' are carried out in the name a particular religion > or are solely based on the religious identity? > > There are many instances of 'acts of terror by Hindus' which can be so > designated because they are carried out in the name of Hinduism or are > solely based upon and connected to the Hindu identity of the perpetrators. > > Just wondering. > > Kshmendra > > > --- On Sun, 9/14/08, Partha Dasgupta > wrote: > > From: Partha Dasgupta > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi > To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Sunday, September 14, 2008, 4:28 PM > > > > > Dear Radhika Rajen, > > In may mails on this list you have pointed out how the elected > representative is only a beneficiary divided caste votes and not a true > representative. > > Now you jump to another point altogether and talk about the UPA chairperson > and the eloctorate. > > Please stick to a viewpoint as it is hard to trace what your viewpoint is. > If you have changed your viewpoint, then please denote so. > > In any case, saw the killings (directly and first hand in Delhi) during the > Sikh militancy days and have seen communal riots in Baroda, Gujarat; and > all > I can say is that when herd mentality takes over the common sense is lost. > > Also, from Babri Masjid to the incapable idiots who got blown up some time > back, we have seen Hindu militancy. > > Either we can agree that militancy in all forms is wrong or we can quibble > about shades of right or wrong. > > So, where do you stand: > > a) Militancy & armed conflict is wrong > > OR > > b) Hindu's are allowed to have a conflict as they have been repressed as > a > majority > and that cases like Godhra, Sikh killings in Delhi and Babri Masjid > are justified. > > Rgds, Partha > > PS: I do note that when you talk of terror, you never refer to the LTTE > (Hindu & Indian) which is considered as one of the most dangerous terrorist > organisations and has killed a Prime Minister of India (and is not Muslim > or > Christian) or the killing of Indira Gandi - or is it that since they were > not BJP/RSS that you do not consider them a loss? > ..................................................... > > On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 4:05 PM, wrote: > > > Without getting in to blame games, the need of the moment is the > > chairperson of UPA who is now proxy governor of the nation should have > good > > introspection of the events and see if her Home Minister who was once > > speaker, but discarded by the electorate, got into rajya sabha by > nomination > > and then is the Home minister, is he capable of any action. A dummy like > > Prime minister, again diitto to the governance who has no incentive to > > perform as Prime minister being discard beaucrat, has been of yester > years, > > can not make up his mind to take tough action for fear of votebank > getting > > "hurt". By this inaction, in actual practise muslims are getting > branded as > > terrorists for the simple reason, they are not willing to be ready to > > identify, isolate and give up those who indulge in terror activities. It > is > > sad scene indeed. Wheras the hindus do not want violence and bhajrang dal > > gets no sympathy for its acts of violence, muslims by floating NGOs to > > defend the accused are helping the ter > > ror accused, sheltoring the accused for plain and simple lots of money in > > the trade of defending the terror. > > > > regards. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Priya Sen > > Date: Sunday, September 14, 2008 3:18 pm > > Subject: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > Dear All, > > > > > > India Gate, September 13th, 6:20 or so in the evening. I had > > > decided to walk > > > from Triveni Academy towards Khan Market, determined to buy a > > > bicycle and > > > thinking, it's getting dark and maybe I should wait until Monday > > > and I > > > shouldn't tell my mother about my biking plans and even though I > > > plan to > > > ride early mornings I need to ride it back home now and so on and > > > so forth. > > > India Gate was as India Gate is on a weekend evening. Walking > > > through it > > > made me think of other times I had been there, a few specific > > > memories and a > > > general sense of being in Delhi - of familiarity and ease from > > > having been > > > here for as long as I have, and of curiousity, the kind that comes > > > fromknowing that places are never the same - making mental notes > > > for no one > > > really about the Kwality Walls ice cream cart that had a board > > > saying 'Old > > > Vendor, India Gate since 1956', and the astrologer who sits in > the > > > sameplace always, and people with video cameras filming the gate > > > who always make > > > me wonder at what they think when they play it back later. It > > > took 15 > > > minutes to cross over to Shah Jahan Road. Me, a couple of young > > > men, and a > > > papad seller who the policeman who was also waiting for the lights to > > > change, generally swore at, and I laughed at how swearing is so > > > integral to > > > ones day in Delhi. > > > > > > > > > Later I heard there were a couple of bombs that were defused, one > > > at Regal > > > Cinema and one at India Gate. I realized how many stories there > > > are now. Of > > > yesterday. Of where we were when.. . Of places we know so well. Of > > > our lives > > > up until the moment life changed for so many people in our city. > > > Of the > > > things that make our days what they are and will continue to. > > > Everyone will > > > have a story because everyone needs to claim something from > > > moments like > > > these. And everyone (in this city) must because this moment was > > > about Delhi. > > > It's happened before. Here, in other places, it will happen again > > > and again > > > and these will be 'the times according to people who live in > these > > > times'.And all we can really do is to embrace our lives a little > > > harder. > > > > > > The last time I mourned for this city, a little like this, is when > > > I watched > > > Nanglamachi being demolished and people gathering their lives into > > > bundlesand tempos and going wherever. The ruthlessness was > > > overwhelming. Not to > > > make analogies here. Although nothing wrong with analogies and > > > other things > > > that make us feel what we feel. No rules for that! Think, feel > > > whatever - > > > it's all part of the way we make sense of things on day 2. It was > like > > > watching the news right after the blasts happened, when the > > > reporters were > > > as bewildered as everyone else. Somehow in their floundering the news > > > channels were credible for a moment. Before the information > > > started coming > > > in and before they started interpreting it, that is. We know what > > > they do > > > and do well. Nothing is surprising, just a bit defeating and then > > > you think > > > why. Maybe we're defeated by the way we think, are told to think, > > > don'tthink. Maybe sometimes it has nothing to do with how we > live. > > > > > > > > > Delhi feels quiet today, but that's also from where I am. Also > > > it's Sunday. > > > It will probably not seem very different when I go out later in the > > > afternoon. But my sister called me this morning and was in tears > > > and saying > > > she couldn't sleep because of all this and is feeling restless > > > because lakhs > > > of people are going to be out on the streets today for Ganapati > > > visarjan in > > > Bombay. For her it's about Bombay as well, the place where she > has > > > her life. > > > When public places become vulnerable it means having to make > > > decisions about > > > things one doesn't necessarily think about. It's about > everything > > > outside of > > > us that is essential to how we construct our lives. It's about > > > everydaydecisions, small things, immediate concerns. About being > > > able to imagine, > > > and dream and lose ourselves in places. For a few days we will be > > > excruciatingly aware of how we move around the city. There will be > > > remorseand anxiety and conversation. We will share a common grief, > > > in degrees, and > > > it will bring us together more intensely. We will count and blame and > > > speculate. And then we will thankfully, move on. > > > > > > > > > Right now though, I would rather not. Not for today. I just want > > > to be with > > > what this city means to me. Aside from its symbols, its creation > > > of itself, > > > its skewed power dynamics and unbearable inequalities. A friend > > > and I are > > > convinced that "Delhi steps in when we really need something > to.". > > > Like the > > > wisdom of places. Not to get melodramatic! I'm glad I was here > > > when this > > > happened and not somewhere else. > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > Priya > > > > > > -- > > > Priya Sen > > > Sarai-CSDS > > > 29, Rajpur Road, Civil Lines > > > Delhi - 110054 > > > priya at sarai.net > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > list > > > List archive: > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > +919811047132 > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > +919811047132 > > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > +919811047132 > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > From rashneek at gmail.com Wed Sep 17 09:31:25 2008 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 09:31:25 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] kashmiriyat by Meena Arora Nayak In-Reply-To: <47e122a70809162002t2a8f480bnbf83ced01f9a9006@mail.gmail.com> References: <47e122a70809162002t2a8f480bnbf83ced01f9a9006@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <13df7c120809162101g3afed5fcnadab70916284865f@mail.gmail.com> Dear Friends, That this author calls Hari Parbat,(Hari's mount) is itself a testament to how little she knows. One more Kashmir Expert. Regards rashneek On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 8:32 AM, inder salim wrote: > http://www.worldviewmagazine.com/issues/article.cfm?id=106&issue=25 > > KASHMIRIYAT > > An embracing spirit languishes like the dying chinar tree > > by Meena Arora Nayak > > Lal Chowk surprised me. Instead of crumbling stores, I saw in them > merchandise piled high. Instead of the evidence of battles, I saw > vendors and vehicles competing for street space. Instead of > fear-stricken people, I saw a crowded marketplace, brimming with > activity. When I expressed my surprise to Arshad, my escort, he told > me that the state officials repaired all damages almost overnight-a > ruse to convince the people or, perhaps, themselves that the situation > was just as repairable. As for the people in the market, he said, > "Life goes on. In fact, within 20 minutes of an incident every thing > goes back to normal. We have become so used to it." > > We bought the cheese and as we strolled through the crowds, we heard a > crash-thunderous-and the earth trembled under our feet. Within a > minute, everything changed. Bustling streets became fear-filled > confusion. Storekeepers pulled down shutters; vendors and vehicles > became entangled in flight; people ran in all directions, pushing > against each other, stumbling over wares laid out on sidewalks. As I > stood rooted to the ground, suspended in this surreal dimension, a > young woman ran past us, her bright yellow duppatta, which a minute > ago had probably covered her head in modesty, flying off her shoulder > in a trail of fire. > > Arshad and I began walking towards the site, shouldering our way past > people fleeing in the opposite direction. "What do you think it was?" > I asked Arshad. "A police encounter? A terrorist's grenade?" > > "Not an encounter," he said. "No shots." He paused. "No screams. There > were no screams." > > As we turned the corner, a small crowd of men gathered around an > embankment. Leaving Arshad's side, I elbowed my way into the crowd, > determined to see the blatant tragedy of Kashmir. And there it was: a > chinar tree 20-some meters in height and 12-some meters in girth, > felled to the ground. Chinar is a Persian word meaning "what a fire." > In late autumn, the chinar bursts into flames, its palm-sized leaves > smoldering in colors from passionate purple to blazing red. In 1596, > the great Mughal Emperor of India, Akbar, planted the first grove of > chinars in a garden in Srinagar, the summer capital of Jammu and > Kashmir. Since then, the chinar in Kashmir has become a dominant > feature of the landscape, and its connotations have become an idiom > both artistic and dialectic. > > This is the story of Kashmir-the story of a dying civilization. > According to a Hindu legend, Kashmir was once a vast lake called > Satisar, inhabited by the Nagas, the snake people. Once upon a time, a > demon, Jaladeo, began terrorizing the Nagas, so they beseeched their > father, Sage Kashyap, to help. Kashyap, deciding to evoke the gods, > performed such severe penance that the heavens shook. Finally, Shiva > descended from Mount Kailash, his abode in the Himalayas, and rented > the mountainside with his mighty trident. All the water of Lake > Satisar drained out. Then Vishnu's consort, the goddess Laxmi (called > Sharda in Kashmir), took the shape of a hari or a mynah bird and > dropped on the demon's head a pebble, which penetrated his body and > grew to the size of a hill, encasing him in the rock. Thus, the hill > came to be known as Hari Parbat (Hari's Mount). In gratitude to > Kashyap, the site was called Kashyap Mir or Kashyap Mountain, which > has gradually corrupted to Kashmir. Over the years, the slopes of the > hill became enshrined with Hindu, Muslim and Sikh places of worship. > In the 16th century, Akbar constructed the Hari Parbat fort along the > top of the hill, enclosing the city of Srinagar in a citadel. > > Even before Akbar built his fort, Srinagar and the whole Kashmir > valley was already a citadel. Nestled securely between the lofty > Himalayan range in the north and the Pir Panjal in the south, the > 134-kilometer by 40-kilometer oval plane with its meandering rivers > and rippling lakes, rolling greens and flower-fragrant paths was a > citadel of Eden, a citadel for a way of life which the world would > never comprehend. Kashmiris call it Kashmiriyat. > > Kashmiriyat, when experienced as a culture, is so syncretic that it > inspires an epitomizing co-existence: man's oneness with man; man's > oneness with nature. Kashmiriyat, when perceived as a faith, is an > amalgamation of four great traditions: the aborigines' Shaivism, a > Hindu Monistic philosophy, and the disseminated wisdoms of Quran's > Erfan, Buddhism's Nirvana and Sikhism's Ek Onkar. > > Aside from being a fertile ground for missioners, Kashmir, being on > the Silk Route, was also an easy target for invaders who were > sometimes benevolent but often tyrannical. This constant shift in > allegiance taught Kashmiris the attitude of Kashmiriyat. No matter who > or what the monarch, the people of Kashmir knew survival could only be > through seamless co-existence. One of the reasons for such integration > was Kashmir's insular geography, which buffered most disruptive > influences. However, when the modern world's demarcation made Kashmir > a strategic vantage point, the permeation of outside antagonisms in > Kashmir's society was inevitable. > > In 1947, the year of India's partition, Kashmir emerged from the > shifting tides of international politics as the invidious prize for > both India and Pakistan. At that time, Kashmir was ruled by a Hindu > king, but the majority of its population was Muslim. According to the > precepts of the British two-nation theory, Kashmir belonged to > Pakistan. However, Kashmir's Sufi Islam was hardly the Sunna- and > Sharia-based Islam of Pakistan, so the Raja entered a stand-still > agreement with both countries. Pakistan grew impatient and sent its > troops and warlords into Kashmir, forcing the hand of the Raja, who > appointed Sheikh Abdullah-a popular and trusted leader of the > Kashmiris-to negotiate the treaty of Kashmir's accession to India. > Thus it was that Kashmir became a part of India-but with reservation. > Article 370 of the Instrument of Accession gave Kashmir > semi-autonomous status within India's constitutional framework and > promised the people of Kashmir a plebiscite. The article guaranteed > the survival of Kashmiriyat in Kashmir, but it also became Kashmir's > albatross. > > Imbued with this special status, Kashmir jealously protected its > autonomy. Consequently, the central government in Delhi pumped into > the region special food and resource subsidies but otherwise felt no > real need to be actively involved in the region's affairs. The > government of India did very little to monitor the state's > administrative and legislative machinery. With money pouring in > through the subsidies, the highly profitable tourism industry and the > farming of such cash crops as fruits, walnuts and saffron, corruption > was a natural result. Bribery took root early in Sheikh Abdullah's > 20-year administration and burgeoned into a full-fledged orgy when the > regime of his son, Farukh Abdullah, began in the mid-1980s. > > Civil lawlessness now reigns supreme in Kashmir. Investments, > development contracts, higher education and employment are all > privileges of the venal, while the ordinary Kashmiri is brick-walled. > Who is held responsible for the failed system? The situation. > Terrorism. > > A disillusioned young rickshaw driver revealed the Sophoclean irony of > this inverted truth to me on my way to Chirar-I-Sharif, the shrine of > the Sufi saint Nur-ud-din Wali. He was a first-class graduate of > Srinagar's college of agriculture. "When I couldn't get a job, > militancy became the only option. Everyone knows how much they > (Pakistan's intelligence service) pay for young recruits. I tried > going to the other side, but my guide abandoned me in the mountains > and I returned home. I have a widowed mother and two sisters. Although > I can barely feed them with this job, I consider myself lucky. If I > had joined militancy…" > > Kashmir's reversal of fate was sealed in 1987 when various Muslim > groups with an affinitive bias toward the Islamization of Pakistan's > military dictator Zia-ul-Haque formed a coalition called the Muslim > United Front. Haque's orthodoxy, drawing its inspiration from the > Ayatollah's experiments in Iran, promised a lawful land practicing > Quranic principles of governance and personal ethics. The frustrated > youth of Kashmir were ready and willing to surrender Kashmiriyat to > law and polity, even if it meant living in a polarized society. Muslim > United Front drew such unprecedented support from the people of > Kashmir that Farukh Abdullah feared defeat in that year's elections, > so he formed a coalition with India's ruling Congress party. Doubtful > of the coalition's victory, Farukh and Delhi orchestrated guarantees. > The election was blatantly rigged. Members of the Muslim United Front > watched as election booths were vandalized, votes were miscounted and > polling agents were beaten and jailed. > > Kashmir erupted in riots and a wayward spirit entered the hearts of > people. It was the spirit of revolution. The former pleas for > plebiscite- Hum kya chahte hai? Rai shumari!-turned to chants for > azadi or freedom. Mothers urged their sons to beckon to the call; > schoolteachers stopped teaching math and history, and began talking to > their students about freedom and liberty. And Pakistan-with its > tantalizing promises of money and training camps-became the much > needed "helping hand" or, as India liked to call it, the "foreign > hand." Young Muslim men from all over the valley openly crossed the > Line of Control in throngs: Local bus drivers announcing two > towns-"Sopur, Kapur"-defiantly added "Upper" to indicate their > destination was on the other side of the mountains. > > Of those 18 Muslim United Front polling agents, five joined the Jammu > and Kashmir Liberation Front, 12 joined the Hizb ul Mujahideen and one > enlisted with the Islamic Student's Federation. The gun had entered > the valley. Its first victim: Kashmiriyat. > > Bashir Ahmad, a third generation weaver of pashmina shawls, is a > witness. Most of Bashir's business used to come directly from tourists > and merchants in Jammu. The tourists stopped visiting and the shawls > stopped selling. "Today, even if we can sell them in Jammu, it is at > the cost of our pride. They don't trust us any more." He told me how a > few years ago, he sent a shipment of pure pashmina shawls to a Jammu > dealer he knew well, but when he went to collect the payment, he only > received half of what was owed him. The dealer accused him of mixing > wool yarn with pashmina thread. > > "Weaving is an ibadat," Bashir told me, "an act of worship. Weavers > have a patron Sufi saint who demands honesty in ibadat. Believe me, in > this business, if you are not honest, you will not be able to survive > for more than a few years. We have been weavers for over 100 years. > This situation has made my ancestors cheats." > > This mistrust has soured not just business relationships, but also > relationships of the heart. > > Shahid sahib, my host, shared his pain with me one afternoon. Before > the Kashmiri Hindus, or Pundits, as they are called, fled the valley, > fearing the fanatic implications of the Islamic insurgency, Shahid > sahib used to have a very close Hindu friend in his neighborhood. > > "Kaul and I used to play chess in the evening. His board used to sit > in my living room. We would play in my house and, most evenings, go to > his house for dinner. His mother was an excellent cook. I loved her > like a mother. Then rumors of a Muslim militancy began to spread. But > there was no real incident. However, I was worried about my friend and > his family, so I told them that if anything happened, they could count > on me. A couple of days later, Kaul came to ask for his chessboard and > the following morning they were gone. The next thing we know, the > media is splashed with atrocities the Muslims had supposedly committed > against their Hindu neighbors-women raped, men tortured and killed, > children brutally murdered, houses looted. These were stories that > included my neighborhood. Right here where I live. How is it that I > didn't see anything?" > > When I asked him if he still believed in Kashmiriyat, his eyes filled > with tears. "No one talks about Kashmiriyat any more. Maybe it was > always a myth, an illusion we had mistaken as truth." > > "But do you believe in it?" I insisted. > > "If anything had happened, I would have protected Kaul and his family > with my life." > > Whether the grievances of the Muslims are real or imagined, whether > the Pundits fled due to a situation that was real or imagined, hardly > seems the point now. The fact is that the ordinary Kashmiri Muslim saw > the Pundits' leaving as a betrayal of Kashmiriyat. > > While I talked to Shahid sahib, his seven-year-old grandson came into > the room. I dug out two candy bars from my bag to give to him. When > Burhan saw his grandfather's tears, he emphatically stated that > Kashmir should become a part of Pakistan. > > "Why?" I asked him. > > "Because we are Musalmaan." > > "But do you know that India has many many Musalmaan?" > > "Yes, but there are also Hindus. I don't like Hindus." > > "Why?" > > "They're not nice. They tell lies." > > I asked him what he thought of me-whether I was nice or not. > > "Very nice," he said, biting into his chocolate. > > "So, do you think I am a Hindu or a Musalmaan?" > > Without hesitation, he said, "Musalmaan." > > I couldn't resist telling the little boy that I was a Hindu, but I > regretted the impulse almost immediately, because Burhan looked at his > grandfather with bewilderment and his own sense of betrayal. > > In fact, betrayal is the theme song of Kashmir's tragedy. Ever since > 1947, the Kashmiris have been suffering one betrayal after another. > The promise of the plebiscite was never fulfilled. Waiting for its > realization, the people of Kashmir never identified with India and, > thus, remained bereft of a national identity. Compounding this > estrangement was Delhi's repeated condoning of corruption in the guise > of secularism and democracy. > > When embittered Kashmiris turned to Pakistan after the 1987 elections > fraud, Pakistan's intelligence service gathered the Kashmiris in an > embrace of pretended sympathy. For a while, Kashmiris saw the > Pakistani agents as fellow Muslims ready to fight for their brethren, > and freedom in the Kashmiri psyche became synonymous with the fanatic > elements of that agency. > > However, within a few years the people of Kashmir realized that > Pakistan had invoked insurgency in Kashmir not for the Kashmiris' > right for self-determination but for the establishment of an Islamic > world-order. Their cause for freedom had been sabotaged and turned > murderously against their own people. What was worse was that > Kashmir's grassroots revolutionaries became indistinguishable from the > terrorists of foreign nations. This fight had become a > free-for-all-Afghanis, Pakistanis, Sudanese, jihadis, freedom > fighters, bounty hunters. However, by then it was too late. India had > already raised its flag of nationalism against Kashmir's separatist > movement. India began to send in its security forces who, under the > Armed Forces Special Power Act, started their own reign of terror, > interrogating civilians at gunpoint and torturing and killing others > on mere suspicion. The cause that had begun as a freedom movement > turned into a fractured war against military occupation. > > Even if Kashmir is not fighting a conventional war, it is a war zone. > There are approximately 700,000 Indian military personnel from five > different brigades posted in Kashmir at all times. Not only is the > border lined thickly with Indian and Pakistani armies, but the towns > look like combat zones. Gun-toting soldiers are everywhere-patrolling > gardens, parks, lakesides, and even places of worship. Traffic in the > streets is often stalled to allow the lumbering, armored vehicles of > war to make their rounds. In Srinagar, there is a military bunker > every 200 meters, complete with sandbags, chains and soldiers flashing > AK-47s. Roadside checks have become routine. Anywhere, anytime, public > busses and private cars can be stopped and thoroughly inspected, and > the passengers rigorously questioned. There is no official curfew in > Srinagar, but after eight in the evening, the city becomes a shadowy > ghost town of stray dogs and security guards. Every corner is a > nucleus of suspicion and every military bunker an interrogation cell. > If you are not able to provide identification, or if you resist in any > manner, may God help you. > > "What can they do to you?" I asked Arshad one evening when we were > caught in this nightmare. > > "Young men disappear in Kashmir every day. Sometimes people find their > bodies-in lakes or on river banks; other times they just vanish." > > I remembered a wailing mother in Hazrat Bal, the mosque where a strand > of Prophet Mohammed's hair is enshrined. She had been circumambulating > the sanctum sanctorum, kissing every latticed window, leaving a trail > of tears all along the marble walls. Upon my asking, she had told me > her son had disappeared. > > Dr. G.Q. Allaquabad, a leading Kashmiri psychiatrist, says today > Kashmir's entire population suffers from depression. And it isn't just > the Kashmiris who are susceptible; the soldiers posted in Kashmir are > also weary and homesick. In Zaina Kadal, a riot-prone neighborhood, I > talked to a soldier standing beside a bunker with Mera Bharat Mahan > (My India is Great) written on its side in large red letters. The > soldier was a little wary but willing to talk. He told me he was from > a village near Bombay and that he had been stationed in Kashmir for > five years. "My son was born in my absence," he said with a sadness in > his eyes. "I see him when I go home on leave, but I miss him." I asked > him if he was afraid for his life, since military units were the > terrorists' main targets. "There's always a fear, but I'm a soldier. I > go wherever my country needs me." I asked him then if he was aware > that the people of Kashmir were sick of India and it military's > presence. His manner changed suddenly. "We are here for their > protection," he said in a tone of a programmed machine. > > According to the people of Kashmir, they never needed military > protection against their own militants. No Kashmiri blamed them for > taking up the gun. Besides, they believe that all Kashmiris who were > alleged terrorists are either dead or reformed. There are certainly > foreign nationals still operating in the valley, and no amount of > security seems to prevent their infiltration across the border. The > Kashmiris say that is because the real terrorists have always been and > still are India and Pakistan, and they don't want the conflict to end. > > When Kashmir's trouble began, the governments of both India and > Pakistan exploited communal sentiments by feeding the public rumors of > ethnic cleansing. Aside from engaging domestic public opinion, both > governments realized that they could use Kashmir to clean their image > in the world's view. Pakistan surmised it could ﾑcry wolf' and acquire > large amounts foreign aid to keep its military well-equipped against > its warring neighbor, India; and the Indian politicians discovered > they could absolve themselves of all sins, including going nuclear, by > citing victimization by Pakistan-sponsored terrorism. The Kashmir > conflict has become such a raison d'￪tre for their hostility that one > wonders what both countries will use as a stratagem if the Kashmir > question were diplomatically settled. > > "It'll never be resolved as long as we are caught between their > quarrels. The only solution is for India to cut us loose and for > Pakistan to stop interfering in our bid for freedom," Shahid sahib > told me, echoing the sentiment of many Kashmiris. > > A free Kashmir? The most poignant tragedy of this elusive desire is > that Kashmir is almost incapable of survival as an independent nation. > The people of Kashmir are aware of this, yet they crave it. For most > of its post-1947 life, Kashmir has lived on subsidies from India. Over > the years, the agriculture department replaced the farming of staple > crops like rice and wheat with revenue-generating cash crops like > saffron and fruits and walnuts. Consequently, Kashmir today imports > most of its rice, wheat and vegetables from other Indian states. It > would take Kashmir years to restructure its agriculture in order to > feed its people. The tourism industry, which used to be the backbone > of Kashmir's economy, is non-existent today. Freedom for Kashmir would > also mean a constant threat from its powerful neighbors, India, > Pakistan, China and Russia. For the simple Kashmiri, however, freedom > merely means the return of Kashmiriyat and a simple faith in God's > benevolence. > Sitting in the verdant green lawns of the Jama Masjid, enjoying the > afternoon sun, four young friends who make a living by spinning > pashmina thread, talked to me about azadi and what it meant to them. > Irshada, one of the women said, "It is the right to live our lives > like ordinary people." > > When I asked her what her definition of an ordinary life was, she > blushed and looked at her friends. Her friend, Sumaira, who, > incidentally, is the sister of the man Irshada hopes to marry, said, > "she wants to marry the man of her choice." > > "And have a family and enough money to live a comfortable life," > Irshada shyly added. > > "Azadi means no violence, no Indian presence, no Pakistani presence. > Just us. Kashmiris," Sumaira said. > > "And no Pundits?" I asked. > > "They will come back once we have azadi. This is their Kashmir, too. > We want them to come back." > > "And there would be no trouble between the communities after all that > has happened?" > > "Have you heard about Kashmir's Kashmiriyat?" Irfana, the unsmiling > one asked me. > > I told her I had, but I wanted to hear her version of it. > > "We used to have a Musalmaan ruler a long time ago-hundreds of years > ago-whose governor was so cruel he used to tie up Hindus in gunny > sacks and drown them in the Dal Lake. Most Hindus fled from Kashmir at > that time. Then another Musalmaan ruler came to rule Kashmir. His name > was Zain-al-Abdin. He invited the Hindus back and appointed them to > high positions in his kingdom. He helped them rebuild their temples > and celebrated their festivals with them. The Kashmiris learnt so much > from him, they called him Budshah (great king). He taught us all to > love our land-our Kashmir-and to live together as Kashmiris. That is > Kashmiriyat." > > "It's still there," Irfana added. "Kashmiriyat is still there. "It's > hard to see it these days, because of the violence, but it's there-in > the hearts of all the Kashmiris." > > Irshada smiled at me and said with a faith so firm I envied her, > "We'll be fine when we get azadi. Allah tallah will look after all of > us." > > I came to Kashmir as a Hindu to reaffirm my faith before an image of > Shiva which is found in a cave near Srinagar. Instead, I tied threads > of hope on the lattice work of Makhdoom Sahib and Dastgir Sahib > mosques, rubbed my nose in the dirt of Chhati Padshahi Gurudwara and > rang bells of peace at the Chos Khor Buddhist monastery. I had become > a pilgrim who questioned the silence of these silent guardians of > Kashmiriyat. Irshada's simple faith restored my hope for Kashmiriyat's > survival, so I decided to spend my last day in Kashmir as I would have > back in the days when Kashmiriyat was not just in the hearts of the > people but roamed free in the streets. I rented a houseboat for the > evening to watch the sun rise on the Dal Lake. > > Sitting on the deck that evening, watching the long twilight linger on > the Dal, I heard shots in the distance. > > "An encounter?" I asked Aslam, the houseboat owner. > > "No, no. Only some tourists playing with firecrackers. Don't let it > worry you. You enjoy your evening." But I knew he lied. I asked him > what he thought of the situation. > > "Death," he said, lighting his 10th cigarette of the evening. "We will > die, either from a terrorist's gun or from being caught in the > crossfire. If not that, then from a heart attack brought on by the > tension of a failing business." > > "Whom do you blame?' I asked. > > He shook his head. "Kashmir has been touched by an evil eye." > > I remembered the chinar I had seen on my first day in Srinagar. A tree > removal team from the garden and parks department had felled it. It > was dying. Nobody really knew the cause. "It was the heavy traffic. > The pollution," a bystander had told me. "Some bug was eating away at > its insides," another one said. "It's greed," a dapper young man > dressed impeccably in khaki trousers and a bright white shirt had > stated. "They need the space for more business construction." The > chinar was obviously dying. I remembered seeing the peeling scabs on > its once-smooth bark and fissures in the circular age lines in the > massive hollow trunk. Some of its branches, dry and brittle, had > snapped when it had crashed to the ground and were strewn around it > like hacked-off limbs. I had been told that only a week ago one of its > dead branches had broken loose in a storm and struck a little girl of > five, killing her. I remembered the old doll seller, who had stood > beside me, holding a pole against his shoulder on which hollow plastic > dolls with painted faces had hung from strings. His gray beard had > been filled with dirt; wrinkles reached into his eyes. > > "It was touched by the evil eye," he told me in a hushed voice. > > At dawn, the following morning, as I stood on the deck of the > houseboat, watching the sun rise, the Dal became ethereal, silver with > drops of golden sunlight twinkling along its still water. The first > rays of the sun streaked the sky behind Hari Parbat. Then the sound of > the first azan arose from a mosque on the hill. It was soon joined by > the sound of the first ardas from a Gurudwara also on the hill. Filled > with a sense of divine unity, I wondered if the prayer generated from > this elemental euphony would be powerful enough to one day negate the > touch of the evil eye. > > Meena Nayak is writing a childrenﾒs book about Indian historical > legends which will be published by Penguin India. Steve McCurry's > photographs of have appeared in magazines and books including his own > South Southeast, published by Phaidon. StatCounter - Free Web Tracker > and Counter > > -- > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Rashneek Kher Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten Human Tragedy http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From monica at sarai.net Tue Sep 16 21:48:40 2008 From: monica at sarai.net (Monica Narula) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 21:48:40 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] green unplugged Festival Message-ID: <9B319812-B8E7-42CE-AE39-1E3CCC764B6A@sarai.net> FYI --------------------------------------- green unplugged Share your vision, your spirit, your film. Reach audiences across borders with your voice, your consciousness. ABOUT FESTIVAL : Culture Unplugged Studios will be launching 'Green Unplugged' - the festival where we unite to share our voices, not only as film-makers but culture-makers. The festival will facilitate contemplation, connection & celebration of life, culture & nature through cinema. We invite your green & socially conscious films that bring to light nature's demand to wake us to our future - an integrated individual and the human society. Share stories that reveal where we come from, our collective journey leading to our present and contemplating the path beyond. With this, Culture Unplugged wishes to create a global community of conscious creatives and their audiences, to reflect on issues and life experiences in contemporary world – creatives/storytellers wishing to express and exchange primarily through language of film (visual/aural communication), framing the spirit in motion. FESTIVAL DATE : 2008-2009 FESTIVAL PARTNERS : Barrie Osborne (Producer, New Zealand, 7 times - Oscar winner) Michael Pyser (Producer, USA, Several Oscar Nomination) Shekhar Kapoor (Film-maker/Director, India, Oscar Nominated 2007) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------- Last date for receiving of the film 1st week of Novemeber, 2008 If you participate in the festival, you will be contacted shortly prior to the launch of this festival. Post festival, we will be launching a permanent venue with the film archive with intention to promote transformative films and its film-makers on global level. With this venue we intend to create an open & transparent system for film-makers and facilitate dialogue among them, their audiences and other professionals to fertilize social consciousness. For participation kindly fill the online form and send us the film/ DVD . Multiple entries are welcome. Fill the individual form for each film. To submit the form, please visit: www.cultureunplugged.com/submit/ call.html Monica Narula Raqs Sarai-CSDS 29 Rajpur Road Delhi 110 054 www.raqsmediacollective.net www.sarai.net _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From anivar.aravind at gmail.com Wed Sep 17 10:47:43 2008 From: anivar.aravind at gmail.com (Anivar Aravind) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 10:47:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Caste and Landlessness in Kerala: Signals from Chengara : KT Rammohan Message-ID: <35f96d470809162217n5910bb3bxc91e89c54440140b@mail.gmail.com> >From current EPW issue Caste and Landlessness in Kerala: Signals from Chengara K T Rammohan The persistence of colonial patterns of ownership of plantations in Kerala remains one of the enduring weaknesses of the land reforms programme of the 1970s in the state. The case of Chengara's landless dalits underlines the necessity to address the issue of land reforms once again. Read the full article http://www.epw.in/uploads/articles/12642.pdf Anivar From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Wed Sep 17 10:51:16 2008 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 22:21:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions In-Reply-To: <48CFC1BE.9070103@sarai.net> Message-ID: <792548.85529.qm@web53602.mail.re2.yahoo.com> How about a Hong Kong like solution,with autonomy in all areas except defense and foreign affairs? IK can stay with India and PK with Pak,for the purpose of defense and foreign affairs.IK and PK can have a fluid border with each other,but India and Pak can apply their immigration policy on the border of Kashmir with the rest of the country.The situation can be reviewed by India , Pak and Kashmir after 5 years. --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Vivek Narayanan wrote: > From: Vivek Narayanan > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, "sarai list" > Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 7:55 PM > I did not say you wrote that Kshmendra, I said that I was > given to > understand it that way from what you were saying. Hence, > the question > mark in my note below. Perhaps you are being a little too > intelligently > vague. In any case, if you do think there are possibilities > here beyond > the nation state, including beyond occupation by and > assertion and > domination of the Indian nation state, I'd be very glad > to hear of them. > > Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > > Dear Vivek > > > > > > > > Either I did not know what I was writing or you chose > not understand. > > Either way that is unfortunate. You would not want > that happening with > > you. Would you? > > > > > > > > Where in this particular thread have I mentioned or > suggested that : > > > > > > > > """" any possible > "post-national" solution to the question of > Kashmir > > is hogwash, > > dreamy, silly, > unthinkable""""" > > > > > > > > Once you answer that, I could (perhaps tomorrow) > address rest of what > > you have written. > > > > > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From getsim2222 at yahoo.co.in Wed Sep 17 12:15:07 2008 From: getsim2222 at yahoo.co.in (simran chadha) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 12:15:07 +0530 (IST) Subject: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi In-Reply-To: <32144e990809160555l1ddc587dm6b0af067ccaa323d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <533939.66567.qm@web8705.mail.in.yahoo.com> Hey Partha and Kshmendra!   was just curious as to how you called the LTTE a Hindu organisation and later ofcourse corrected it by referred to the strong christian elements. Sorry, but religion has never played a determining role in the LTTE and certainly not Hinduism. The Kovils may have been used as hiding places, incidentally, or even for visting on festive occasions or distribution of prasad - its a guerilla warfare after all so the terraine is as much a part of the mise-en-scene; but never never was religion co-mingled with the carrying out of a terrorist act. Rather the complete absence of God and religion is what makes the LTTE so different from any other terrorist outfit, in south asia or japan or ireland. Check out their marching song! or the matyrs day celebration - no recourse to any higher form of authority than the human. yes, charles anthony - prabhakaran's son, who heads the LTTE airforce bears a christian name but no belssing of any saint are sort before or after. my question still remains and i would be glad to be informed, where did u get the religious connection from - the manifesto, the documents by the Balasingham's where? simran --- On Tue, 16/9/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: From: Partha Dasgupta Subject: Re: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com Cc: Date: Tuesday, 16 September, 2008, 6:25 PM Dear Kshmendra, The questions you have asked about 'what is terror', etc is something I would not like to elaborate on as each has his/her own interpretation. Bhagat Singh is a freedom fighter as far as we Indians are concerned, but for the govt of the day he was a terrorist. There is no 'standard' definition of what a terrorist is and each person / entity would translate the word in their own way. As for defining LTTE as Hindu terrorists - guess that question is wide open depending upon what we use as the pointer. If the primary factor is what religion / group do they belong to, then we'd have a ready answer. If, however, we look beyond and try to identify the aim / purpose behind the conflict, there'd be another answer all together - some of them not very clear. Even if a 'terrorist' follows a ideology/religion/place/societal group - that's a personal root that s/he has. It does not follow that all people of the ideology/religion/place/societal group follow the same radical conclusion. Guess we could go on and on - fact is that we'll all equate the phrase 'terrorist' from our personal point of view and experiences. Apologies for sounding vague, but you started a line of thought that I'd never really looked at before. Rgds, Partha ................................. On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 5:07 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > Dear Partha > > My questioning of the LTTE being called Hindu was to help me in my > discussions with my own self. > > I am still struggling in my mind over 'what is terror'; 'who is a > terrorist'; 'when should an organisation (or a system) be called a terrorist > one' and 'when should an act of terror, or a terrorist, or a terrorist > organisation be identified with an ideology/religion/place/societal group'. > > There is total agreement with your words: > > """""" The terrorist may belong to any religion or caste or place or > whatever - however, lumping all the people of that religion or caste or > place as terrorists because one or some people from that group performed > 'acts of terrorism' is not justifiable.""""""" > > Kshmendra > > > > > > --- On *Tue, 9/16/08, Partha Dasgupta * wrote: > > From: Partha Dasgupta > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 9:37 AM > > > Dear Kshmendra, > Studied in Baroda / Vadodra and saw communal rights flare up on > the weirdest of reasons. Have seen a close friend who wouldn't kill > cockroaches try to burn a bus in the frenzy of a mob. > > As for defining the LTTE as Hindu - my point is different, and is something > I have mentioned earlier. The terrorist may belong to any religion or caste > or place or whatever - however, lumping all the people of that religion or > caste or place as terrorists because one or some people from that group > performed 'acts of terrorism' is not justifiable. > > In short, am against the mass generalization wherein we identify an entire > group a 'terrorists'. > > To put it the other way around, am a Hindu, but do not identify with the > demolition of the Babri Masjid or the attacks on Christians that is > happening. Just a personal belief, but if any person is converting to > another faith for benefits accrued then obviously his faith wasn't strong in > the first place & s/he won't be much of a loss. > > Rgds, Partha > ....................................... > > On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 7:17 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > >> Dear Partha >> >> Do not mean to butt in. >> >> Just wondering whether any 'acts of terrorrising' by the LTTE can be >> designated as 'acts of terrorising' by Hindus. >> >> Would it not be more apt to link 'acts of terror' with a religious >> identity when such 'acts of terror' are carried out in the name a particular >> religion or are solely based on the religious identity? >> >> There are many instances of 'acts of terror by Hindus' which can be so >> designated because they are carried out in the name of Hinduism or are >> solely based upon and connected to the Hindu identity of the perpetrators. >> >> Just wondering. >> >> Kshmendra >> >> --- On Sun, 9/14/08, Partha Dasgupta < >> partha.dasgupta at eliteinfomachine.com> wrote: >> >> From: Partha Dasgupta >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi >> To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net >> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >> Date: Sunday, September 14, 2008, 4:28 PM >> >> Dear Radhika Rajen, >> >> In may mails on this list you have pointed out how the elected >> representative is only a beneficiary divided caste votes and not a true >> representative. >> >> Now you jump to another point altogether and talk about the UPA >> chairperson >> and the eloctorate. >> >> Please stick to a viewpoint as it is hard to trace what your viewpoint >> is. >> If you have changed your viewpoint, then please denote so. >> >> In any case, saw the killings (directly and first hand in Delhi) during >> the >> Sikh militancy days and have seen communal riots in Baroda, Gujarat; and >> all >> I can say is that when herd mentality takes over the common sense is lost. >> >> Also, from Babri Masjid to the incapable idiots who got blown up some time >> back, we have seen Hindu militancy. >> >> Either we can agree that militancy in all forms is wrong or we can quibble >> about shades of right or wrong. >> >> So, where do you stand: >> >> a) Militancy & armed conflict is wrong >> >> OR >> >> b) Hindu's are allowed to have a conflict as they have been repressed as >> a >> majority >> and that cases like Godhra, Sikh killings in Delhi and Babri Masjid >> are justified. >> >> Rgds, Partha >> >> PS: I do note that when you talk of terror, you never refer to the LTTE >> (Hindu & Indian) which is considered as one of the most dangerous >> terrorist >> organisations and has killed a Prime Minister of India (and is not Muslim >> or >> Christian) or the killing of Indira Gandi - or is it that since they were >> not BJP/RSS that you do not consider them a loss? >> ..................................................... >> >> On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 4:05 PM, wrote: >> >> > Without getting in to blame games, the need of the moment is the >> > chairperson of UPA who is now proxy governor of the nation should have >> good >> > introspection of the events and see if her Home Minister who was once >> > speaker, but discarded by the electorate, got into rajya sabha by >> nomination >> > and then is the Home minister, is he capable of any action. A dummy >> like >> > Prime minister, again diitto to the governance who has no incentive to >> > perform as Prime minister being discard beaucrat, has been of yester >> years, >> > can not make up his mind to take tough action for fear of votebank >> getting >> > "hurt". By this inaction, in actual practise muslims are getting >> branded as >> > terrorists for the simple reason, they are not willing to be ready to >> > identify, isolate and give up those who indulge in terror activities. It >> is >> > sad scene indeed. Wheras the hindus do not want violence and bhajrang >> dal >> > gets no sympathy for its acts of violence, muslims by floating NGOs to >> > defend the accused are helping the ter >> > ror accused, sheltoring the accused for plain and simple lots of money >> in >> > the trade of defending the terror. >> > >> > regards. >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: Priya Sen >> > Date: Sunday, September 14, 2008 3:18 pm >> > Subject: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi >> > To: reader-list at sarai.net >> > >> > > Dear All, >> > > >> > > India Gate, September 13th, 6:20 or so in the evening. I had >> > > decided to walk >> > > from Triveni Academy towards Khan Market, determined to buy a >> > > bicycle and >> > > thinking, it's getting dark and maybe I should wait until Monday >> > > and I >> > > shouldn't tell my mother about my biking plans and even though I >> > > plan to >> > > ride early mornings I need to ride it back home now and so on and >> > > so forth. >> > > India Gate was as India Gate is on a weekend evening. Walking >> > > through it >> > > made me think of other times I had been there, a few specific >> > > memories and a >> > > general sense of being in Delhi - of familiarity and ease from >> > > having been >> > > here for as long as I have, and of curiousity, the kind that comes >> > > fromknowing that places are never the same - making mental notes >> > > for no one >> > > really about the Kwality Walls ice cream cart that had a board >> > > saying 'Old >> > > Vendor, India Gate since 1956', and the astrologer who sits in >> the >> > > sameplace always, and people with video cameras filming the gate >> > > who always make >> > > me wonder at what they think when they play it back later. It >> > > took 15 >> > > minutes to cross over to Shah Jahan Road. Me, a couple of young >> > > men, and a >> > > papad seller who the policeman who was also waiting for the lights to >> > > change, generally swore at, and I laughed at how swearing is so >> > > integral to >> > > ones day in Delhi. >> > > >> > > >> > > Later I heard there were a couple of bombs that were defused, one >> > > at Regal >> > > Cinema and one at India Gate. I realized how many stories there >> > > are now. Of >> > > yesterday. Of where we were when.. . Of places we know so well. Of >> > > our lives >> > > up until the moment life changed for so many people in our city. >> > > Of the >> > > things that make our days what they are and will continue to. >> > > Everyone will >> > > have a story because everyone needs to claim something from >> > > moments like >> > > these. And everyone (in this city) must because this moment was >> > > about Delhi. >> > > It's happened before. Here, in other places, it will happen again >> > > and again >> > > and these will be 'the times according to people who live in >> these >> > > times'.And all we can really do is to embrace our lives a little >> > > harder. >> > > >> > > The last time I mourned for this city, a little like this, is when >> > > I watched >> > > Nanglamachi being demolished and people gathering their lives into >> > > bundlesand tempos and going wherever. The ruthlessness was >> > > overwhelming. Not to >> > > make analogies here. Although nothing wrong with analogies and >> > > other things >> > > that make us feel what we feel. No rules for that! Think, feel >> > > whatever - >> > > it's all part of the way we make sense of things on day 2. It was >> like >> > > watching the news right after the blasts happened, when the >> > > reporters were >> > > as bewildered as everyone else. Somehow in their floundering the news >> > > channels were credible for a moment. Before the information >> > > started coming >> > > in and before they started interpreting it, that is. We know what >> > > they do >> > > and do well. Nothing is surprising, just a bit defeating and then >> > > you think >> > > why. Maybe we're defeated by the way we think, are told to think, >> > > don'tthink. Maybe sometimes it has nothing to do with how we >> live. >> > > >> > > >> > > Delhi feels quiet today, but that's also from where I am. Also >> > > it's Sunday. >> > > It will probably not seem very different when I go out later in the >> > > afternoon. But my sister called me this morning and was in tears >> > > and saying >> > > she couldn't sleep because of all this and is feeling restless >> > > because lakhs >> > > of people are going to be out on the streets today for Ganapati >> > > visarjan in >> > > Bombay. For her it's about Bombay as well, the place where she >> has >> > > her life. >> > > When public places become vulnerable it means having to make >> > > decisions about >> > > things one doesn't necessarily think about. It's about >> everything >> > > outside of >> > > us that is essential to how we construct our lives. It's about >> > > everydaydecisions, small things, immediate concerns. About being >> > > able to imagine, >> > > and dream and lose ourselves in places. For a few days we will be >> > > excruciatingly aware of how we move around the city. There will be >> > > remorseand anxiety and conversation. We will share a common grief, >> > > in degrees, and >> > > it will bring us together more intensely. We will count and blame and >> > > speculate. And then we will thankfully, move on. >> > > >> > > >> > > Right now though, I would rather not. Not for today. I just want >> > > to be with >> > > what this city means to me. Aside from its symbols, its creation >> > > of itself, >> > > its skewed power dynamics and unbearable inequalities. A friend >> > > and I are >> > > convinced that "Delhi steps in when we really need something >> to.". >> > > Like the >> > > wisdom of places. Not to get melodramatic! I'm glad I was here >> > > when this >> > > happened and not somewhere else. >> > > >> > > >> > > Regards, >> > > >> > > >> > > Priya >> > > >> > > -- >> > > Priya Sen >> > > Sarai-CSDS >> > > 29, Rajpur Road, Civil Lines >> > > Delhi - 110054 >> > > priya at sarai.net >> > > _________________________________________ >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > > Critiques & Collaborations >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > > subscribe in the subject header. >> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >> > > list >> > > List archive: >> > >> > >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Partha Dasgupta >> +919811047132 >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in >> the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> > > > > -- > Partha Dasgupta > +919811047132 > > > -- Partha Dasgupta +919811047132 _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or yourname at rocketmail.com. Click here http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address From krishnanrr at rediffmail.com Wed Sep 17 12:48:04 2008 From: krishnanrr at rediffmail.com (Radhakrishnan) Date: 17 Sep 2008 07:18:04 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Bhagat Singh and Terrorism Message-ID: <20080917071804.20819.qmail@f4mail-235-144.rediffmail.com> One is rather amused at the "scholarly" attempts in the production of multiple truths. Bhagat Singh was branded as a terrorist by the British colonial, alien government and not by the government of an independent nation. Similarly Nelson Mandela was branded as a terrorist by a minority white government in South Africa. Kindly don't drag and demean the contibution of Bhagat Singh by invoking such twisted logic. Finally thanks to Simran for enlightening folks about LTTE, its ethnic affiliation and non-religious orientation. Defining the LTTE as Hindu terror outfit runs in consonance to popular myth that Tamils worship Ravana - the villian of Ramayan, notwithstanding the fact that it was a battle between a Kshatriya and a Brahmin. Radhakrishnan   On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 reader-list-request at sarai.net wrote : >Send reader-list mailing list submissions to > reader-list at sarai.net > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > reader-list-request at sarai.net > >You can reach the person managing the list at > reader-list-owner at sarai.net > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. [Announcements] green unplugged Festival (Monica Narula) > 2. Caste and Landlessness in Kerala: Signals from Chengara : KT > Rammohan (Anivar Aravind) > 3. Re: Some Points from discussions (Rahul Asthana) > 4. Re: after yesterday in Delhi (simran chadha) > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Message: 1 >Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 21:48:40 +0530 > From: Monica Narula >Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] green unplugged Festival >To: announcements at sarai.net >Message-ID: <9B319812-B8E7-42CE-AE39-1E3CCC764B6A at sarai.net> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > >FYI >--------------------------------------- > >green unplugged >Share your vision, your spirit, your film. >Reach audiences across borders with your voice, your consciousness. > >ABOUT FESTIVAL : > >Culture Unplugged Studios will be launching 'Green Unplugged' - the >festival where we unite to share our voices, not only as film-makers >but culture-makers. The festival will facilitate contemplation, >connection & celebration of life, culture & nature through cinema. We >invite your green & socially conscious films that bring to light >nature's demand to wake us to our future - an integrated individual >and the human society. Share stories that reveal where we come from, >our collective journey leading to our present and contemplating the >path beyond. > >With this, Culture Unplugged wishes to create a global community of >conscious creatives and their audiences, to reflect on issues and >life experiences in contemporary world – creatives/storytellers >wishing to express and exchange primarily through language of film >(visual/aural communication), framing the spirit in motion. > > >FESTIVAL DATE : 2008-2009 > >FESTIVAL PARTNERS : >Barrie Osborne (Producer, New Zealand, 7 times - Oscar winner) >Michael Pyser (Producer, USA, Several Oscar Nomination) >Shekhar Kapoor (Film-maker/Director, India, Oscar Nominated 2007) > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >-------------------------- >Last date for receiving of the film 1st week of Novemeber, 2008 > >If you participate in the festival, you will be contacted shortly >prior to the launch of this festival. Post festival, we will be >launching a permanent venue with the film archive with intention to >promote transformative films and its film-makers on global level. >With this venue we intend to create an open & transparent system for >film-makers and facilitate dialogue among them, their audiences and >other professionals to fertilize social consciousness. > >For participation kindly fill the online form and send us the film/ >DVD . Multiple entries are welcome. Fill the individual form for each >film. > >To submit the form, please visit: www.cultureunplugged.com/submit/ >call.html > >Monica Narula >Raqs >Sarai-CSDS >29 Rajpur Road >Delhi 110 054 >www.raqsmediacollective.net >www.sarai.net > > >_______________________________________________ >announcements mailing list >announcements at sarai.net >https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements > >------------------------------ > >Message: 2 >Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 10:47:43 +0530 > From: "Anivar Aravind" >Subject: [Reader-list] Caste and Landlessness in Kerala: Signals from > Chengara : KT Rammohan >To: Greenyouth , "Reader List" > >Message-ID: > <35f96d470809162217n5910bb3bxc91e89c54440140b at mail.gmail.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > >From current EPW issue > >Caste and Landlessness in Kerala: Signals from Chengara > K T Rammohan > >The persistence of colonial patterns of ownership of plantations in >Kerala remains one of the enduring weaknesses of the land reforms >programme of the 1970s in the state. The case of Chengara's landless >dalits underlines the necessity to address the issue of land reforms >once again. >Read the full article >http://www.epw.in/uploads/articles/12642.pdf > >Anivar > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 3 >Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 22:21:16 -0700 (PDT) > From: Rahul Asthana >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions >To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, sarai list , Vivek > Narayanan >Message-ID: <792548.85529.qm at web53602.mail.re2.yahoo.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > >How about a Hong Kong like solution,with autonomy in all areas except defense and foreign affairs? IK can stay with India and PK with Pak,for the purpose of defense and foreign affairs.IK and PK can have a fluid border with each other,but India and Pak can apply their immigration policy on the border of Kashmir with the rest of the country.The situation can be reviewed by India , Pak and Kashmir after 5 years. > >--- On Tue, 9/16/08, Vivek Narayanan wrote: > > > From: Vivek Narayanan > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions > > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, "sarai list" > > Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 7:55 PM > > I did not say you wrote that Kshmendra, I said that I was > > given to > > understand it that way from what you were saying. Hence, > > the question > > mark in my note below. Perhaps you are being a little too > > intelligently > > vague. In any case, if you do think there are possibilities > > here beyond > > the nation state, including beyond occupation by and > > assertion and > > domination of the Indian nation state, I'd be very glad > > to hear of them. > > > > Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > > > > Dear Vivek > > > > > > > > > > > > Either I did not know what I was writing or you chose > > not understand. > > > Either way that is unfortunate. You would not want > > that happening with > > > you. Would you? > > > > > > > > > > > > Where in this particular thread have I mentioned or > > suggested that : > > > > > > > > > > > > """" any possible > > "post-national" solution to the question of > > Kashmir > > > is hogwash, > > > dreamy, silly, > > unthinkable""""" > > > > > > > > > > > > Once you answer that, I could (perhaps tomorrow) > > address rest of what > > > you have written. > > > > > > > > > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > > header. > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > > > > >------------------------------ > >Message: 4 >Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 12:15:07 +0530 (IST) > From: simran chadha >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi >To: Partha Dasgupta >Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >Message-ID: <533939.66567.qm at web8705.mail.in.yahoo.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > >Hey Partha and Kshmendra! > >was just curious as to how you called the LTTE a Hindu organisation and later ofcourse corrected it by referred to the strong christian elements. Sorry, but religion has never played a determining role in the LTTE and certainly not Hinduism. The Kovils may have been used as hiding places, incidentally, or even for visting on festive occasions or distribution of prasad - its a guerilla warfare after all so the terraine is as much a part of the mise-en-scene; but never never was religion co-mingled with the carrying out of a terrorist act. Rather the complete absence of God and religion is what makes the LTTE so different from any other terrorist outfit, in south asia or japan or ireland. Check out their marching song! or the matyrs day celebration - no recourse to any higher form of authority than the human. >yes, charles anthony - prabhakaran's son, who heads the LTTE airforce bears a christian name but no belssing of any saint are sort before or after. >my question still remains and i would be glad to be informed, where did u get the religious connection from - the manifesto, the documents by the Balasingham's where? >simran > >--- On Tue, 16/9/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > From: Partha Dasgupta >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi >To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com >Cc: Date: Tuesday, 16 September, 2008, 6:25 PM > >Dear Kshmendra, >The questions you have asked about 'what is terror', etc is something I >would not like to elaborate on as each has his/her own interpretation. > >Bhagat Singh is a freedom fighter as far as we Indians are concerned, but >for the govt of the day he was a terrorist. There is no 'standard' >definition of what a terrorist is and each person / entity would translate >the word in their own way. > >As for defining LTTE as Hindu terrorists - guess that question is wide open >depending upon what we use as the pointer. If the primary factor is what >religion / group do they belong to, then we'd have a ready answer. > >If, however, we look beyond and try to identify the aim / purpose behind the >conflict, there'd be another answer all together - some of them not very >clear. > >Even if a 'terrorist' follows a ideology/religion/place/societal group >- >that's a personal root that s/he has. It does not follow that all people of >the ideology/religion/place/societal group follow the same radical >conclusion. > >Guess we could go on and on - fact is that we'll all equate the phrase >'terrorist' from our personal point of view and experiences. > >Apologies for sounding vague, but you started a line of thought that I'd >never really looked at before. > >Rgds, Partha >................................. > >On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 5:07 PM, Kshmendra Kaul >wrote: > > > Dear Partha > > > > My questioning of the LTTE being called Hindu was to help me in my > > discussions with my own self. > > > > I am still struggling in my mind over 'what is terror'; 'who >is a > > terrorist'; 'when should an organisation (or a system) be called a >terrorist > > one' and 'when should an act of terror, or a terrorist, or a >terrorist > > organisation be identified with an ideology/religion/place/societal >group'. > > > > There is total agreement with your words: > > > > """""" The terrorist may belong to any >religion or caste or place or > > whatever - however, lumping all the people of that religion or caste or > > place as terrorists because one or some people from that group performed > > 'acts of terrorism' is not >justifiable.""""""" > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On *Tue, 9/16/08, Partha Dasgupta * wrote: > > > > From: Partha Dasgupta > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi > > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 9:37 AM > > > > > > Dear Kshmendra, > > Studied in Baroda / Vadodra and saw communal rights flare up on > > the weirdest of reasons. Have seen a close friend who wouldn't kill > > cockroaches try to burn a bus in the frenzy of a mob. > > > > As for defining the LTTE as Hindu - my point is different, and is >something > > I have mentioned earlier. The terrorist may belong to any religion or >caste > > or place or whatever - however, lumping all the people of that religion or > > caste or place as terrorists because one or some people from that group > > performed 'acts of terrorism' is not justifiable. > > > > In short, am against the mass generalization wherein we identify an entire > > group a 'terrorists'. > > > > To put it the other way around, am a Hindu, but do not identify with the > > demolition of the Babri Masjid or the attacks on Christians that is > > happening. Just a personal belief, but if any person is converting to > > another faith for benefits accrued then obviously his faith wasn't >strong in > > the first place & s/he won't be much of a loss. > > > > Rgds, Partha > > ....................................... > > > > On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 7:17 PM, Kshmendra Kaul >wrote: > > > >> Dear Partha > >> > >> Do not mean to butt in. > >> > >> Just wondering whether any 'acts of terrorrising' by the LTTE >can be > >> designated as 'acts of terrorising' by Hindus. > >> > >> Would it not be more apt to link 'acts of terror' with a >religious > >> identity when such 'acts of terror' are carried out in the >name a particular > >> religion or are solely based on the religious identity? > >> > >> There are many instances of 'acts of terror by Hindus' which >can be so > >> designated because they are carried out in the name of Hinduism or are > >> solely based upon and connected to the Hindu identity of the >perpetrators. > >> > >> Just wondering. > >> > >> Kshmendra > >> > >> --- On Sun, 9/14/08, Partha Dasgupta < > >> partha.dasgupta at eliteinfomachine.com> wrote: > >> > >> From: Partha Dasgupta > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi > >> To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > >> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > >> Date: Sunday, September 14, 2008, 4:28 PM > >> > >> Dear Radhika Rajen, > >> > >> In may mails on this list you have pointed out how the elected > >> representative is only a beneficiary divided caste votes and not a >true > >> representative. > >> > >> Now you jump to another point altogether and talk about the UPA > >> chairperson > >> and the eloctorate. > >> > >> Please stick to a viewpoint as it is hard to trace what your >viewpoint > >> is. > >> If you have changed your viewpoint, then please denote so. > >> > >> In any case, saw the killings (directly and first hand in Delhi) >during > >> the > >> Sikh militancy days and have seen communal riots in Baroda, Gujarat; >and > >> all > >> I can say is that when herd mentality takes over the common sense is >lost. > >> > >> Also, from Babri Masjid to the incapable idiots who got blown up some >time > >> back, we have seen Hindu militancy. > >> > >> Either we can agree that militancy in all forms is wrong or we can >quibble > >> about shades of right or wrong. > >> > >> So, where do you stand: > >> > >> a) Militancy & armed conflict is wrong > >> > >> OR > >> > >> b) Hindu's are allowed to have a conflict as they have been >repressed as > >> a > >> majority > >> and that cases like Godhra, Sikh killings in Delhi and Babri >Masjid > >> are justified. > >> > >> Rgds, Partha > >> > >> PS: I do note that when you talk of terror, you never refer to the >LTTE > >> (Hindu & Indian) which is considered as one of the most dangerous > >> terrorist > >> organisations and has killed a Prime Minister of India (and is not >Muslim > >> or > >> Christian) or the killing of Indira Gandi - or is it that since they >were > >> not BJP/RSS that you do not consider them a loss? > >> ..................................................... > >> > >> On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 4:05 PM, wrote: > >> > >> > Without getting in to blame games, the need of the moment is the > >> > chairperson of UPA who is now proxy governor of the nation should >have > >> good > >> > introspection of the events and see if her Home Minister who was >once > >> > speaker, but discarded by the electorate, got into rajya sabha by > >> nomination > >> > and then is the Home minister, is he capable of any action. A >dummy > >> like > >> > Prime minister, again diitto to the governance who has no >incentive to > >> > perform as Prime minister being discard beaucrat, has been of >yester > >> years, > >> > can not make up his mind to take tough action for fear of >votebank > >> getting > >> > "hurt". By this inaction, in actual practise muslims >are getting > >> branded as > >> > terrorists for the simple reason, they are not willing to be >ready to > >> > identify, isolate and give up those who indulge in terror >activities. It > >> is > >> > sad scene indeed. Wheras the hindus do not want violence and >bhajrang > >> dal > >> > gets no sympathy for its acts of violence, muslims by floating >NGOs to > >> > defend the accused are helping the ter > >> > ror accused, sheltoring the accused for plain and simple lots of >money > >> in > >> > the trade of defending the terror. > >> > > >> > regards. > >> > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: Priya Sen > >> > Date: Sunday, September 14, 2008 3:18 pm > >> > Subject: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi > >> > To: reader-list at sarai.net > >> > > >> > > Dear All, > >> > > > >> > > India Gate, September 13th, 6:20 or so in the evening. I had > >> > > decided to walk > >> > > from Triveni Academy towards Khan Market, determined to buy >a > >> > > bicycle and > >> > > thinking, it's getting dark and maybe I should wait >until Monday > >> > > and I > >> > > shouldn't tell my mother about my biking plans and even >though I > >> > > plan to > >> > > ride early mornings I need to ride it back home now and so >on and > >> > > so forth. > >> > > India Gate was as India Gate is on a weekend evening. >Walking > >> > > through it > >> > > made me think of other times I had been there, a few >specific > >> > > memories and a > >> > > general sense of being in Delhi - of familiarity and ease > from > >> > > having been > >> > > here for as long as I have, and of curiousity, the kind that >comes > >> > > fromknowing that places are never the same - making mental >notes > >> > > for no one > >> > > really about the Kwality Walls ice cream cart that had a >board > >> > > saying 'Old > >> > > Vendor, India Gate since 1956', and the astrologer who >sits in > >> the > >> > > sameplace always, and people with video cameras filming the >gate > >> > > who always make > >> > > me wonder at what they think when they play it back later. >It > >> > > took 15 > >> > > minutes to cross over to Shah Jahan Road. Me, a couple of >young > >> > > men, and a > >> > > papad seller who the policeman who was also waiting for the >lights to > >> > > change, generally swore at, and I laughed at how swearing is >so > >> > > integral to > >> > > ones day in Delhi. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Later I heard there were a couple of bombs that were >defused, one > >> > > at Regal > >> > > Cinema and one at India Gate. I realized how many stories >there > >> > > are now. Of > >> > > yesterday. Of where we were when.. . Of places we know so >well. Of > >> > > our lives > >> > > up until the moment life changed for so many people in our >city. > >> > > Of the > >> > > things that make our days what they are and will continue >to. > >> > > Everyone will > >> > > have a story because everyone needs to claim something from > >> > > moments like > >> > > these. And everyone (in this city) must because this moment >was > >> > > about Delhi. > >> > > It's happened before. Here, in other places, it will >happen again > >> > > and again > >> > > and these will be 'the times according to people who >live in > >> these > >> > > times'.And all we can really do is to embrace our lives >a little > >> > > harder. > >> > > > >> > > The last time I mourned for this city, a little like this, >is when > >> > > I watched > >> > > Nanglamachi being demolished and people gathering their >lives into > >> > > bundlesand tempos and going wherever. The ruthlessness was > >> > > overwhelming. Not to > >> > > make analogies here. Although nothing wrong with analogies >and > >> > > other things > >> > > that make us feel what we feel. No rules for that! Think, >feel > >> > > whatever - > >> > > it's all part of the way we make sense of things on day >2. It was > >> like > >> > > watching the news right after the blasts happened, when the > >> > > reporters were > >> > > as bewildered as everyone else. Somehow in their floundering >the news > >> > > channels were credible for a moment. Before the information > >> > > started coming > >> > > in and before they started interpreting it, that is. We know >what > >> > > they do > >> > > and do well. Nothing is surprising, just a bit defeating and >then > >> > > you think > >> > > why. Maybe we're defeated by the way we think, are told >to think, > >> > > don'tthink. Maybe sometimes it has nothing to do with >how we > >> live. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Delhi feels quiet today, but that's also from where I >am. Also > >> > > it's Sunday. > >> > > It will probably not seem very different when I go out later >in the > >> > > afternoon. But my sister called me this morning and was in >tears > >> > > and saying > >> > > she couldn't sleep because of all this and is feeling >restless > >> > > because lakhs > >> > > of people are going to be out on the streets today for >Ganapati > >> > > visarjan in > >> > > Bombay. For her it's about Bombay as well, the place >where she > >> has > >> > > her life. > >> > > When public places become vulnerable it means having to make > >> > > decisions about > >> > > things one doesn't necessarily think about. It's >about > >> everything > >> > > outside of > >> > > us that is essential to how we construct our lives. It's >about > >> > > everydaydecisions, small things, immediate concerns. About >being > >> > > able to imagine, > >> > > and dream and lose ourselves in places. For a few days we >will be > >> > > excruciatingly aware of how we move around the city. There >will be > >> > > remorseand anxiety and conversation. We will share a common >grief, > >> > > in degrees, and > >> > > it will bring us together more intensely. We will count and >blame and > >> > > speculate. And then we will thankfully, move on. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Right now though, I would rather not. Not for today. I just >want > >> > > to be with > >> > > what this city means to me. Aside from its symbols, its >creation > >> > > of itself, > >> > > its skewed power dynamics and unbearable inequalities. A >friend > >> > > and I are > >> > > convinced that "Delhi steps in when we really need >something > >> to.". > >> > > Like the > >> > > wisdom of places. Not to get melodramatic! I'm glad I >was here > >> > > when this > >> > > happened and not somewhere else. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Regards, > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Priya > >> > > > >> > > -- > >> > > Priya Sen > >> > > Sarai-CSDS > >> > > 29, Rajpur Road, Civil Lines > >> > > Delhi - 110054 > >> > > priya at sarai.net > >> > > _________________________________________ > >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >with > >> > > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > > To unsubscribe: >https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > >> > > list > >> > > List archive: > > >> > > >> > > >> > _________________________________________ > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > >> > To unsubscribe: >https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > List archive: > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Partha Dasgupta > >> +919811047132 > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in > >> the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > >> > >> > >> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Partha Dasgupta > > +919811047132 > > > > > > > > >-- >Partha Dasgupta >+919811047132 >_________________________________________ >reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >Critiques & Collaborations >To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in >the subject header. >To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >List archive: > > > Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or yourname at rocketmail.com. Click here http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address > >------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >reader-list mailing list >reader-list at sarai.net >https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >End of reader-list Digest, Vol 62, Issue 101 >******************************************** From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Wed Sep 17 14:59:18 2008 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 14:59:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions In-Reply-To: <48CFC1BE.9070103@sarai.net> Message-ID: Dear Kshemendra, Jeebesh, Vivek, Sanjay and everyone else interested in Kashmir, I have been away this past month, but have looked at the Sarai List from time to time. I find it interesting that the discussion on Kashmir has turned to 'post-national' solutions and that Jeebesh volunteered the Dixon Plan as one way of arriving at a solution. But if you study the plan carefully along with the maps you will realise that there are/were very valid reasons for why it was rejected in the 1950's itself. Since then there have been various attempts to rephrase and re-package the Dixon Plan into something more palatable, but because the basis in all the subsequent proposals was a division of the state on religious lines it was rejected by India. What I find interesting about the discussion so far is that most people seem content to dismiss the nation-state as inherently obdurate, bent on making the lives of Kashmiris, among others, miserable. Some thought and some work has been done on Kashmir in the last sixty years, and I think not only would it be grossly unfair to the people who have attempted to think about and do something on Kashmir if one did not acknowledge it, but it would also be reinventing a very flat wheel if one didn't examine past mistakes. About a month ago in a discussion with Shuddha I had put forward a proposal for a South Asian Union that has been under discussion for several years with friends from the region. This would include Afghanistan, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, India, Nepal, Bangladesh with the possibility of Tibet and Burma as observer states. No takers on the list? Well, FYI by 2015 the governments of these countries will have in place the South Asian Free Trade Agreement (SAFTA). This push is obviously coming from the trade fraternity, but where does this leave civil society? Why are we not responding creatively to something which could potentially either become a trade agreement which would benefit only big business, or something that could mean real freedom for the nearly 2 billion people in this region? > From: Vivek Narayanan > Organization: Sarai > Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 19:55:02 +0530 > To: , sarai list > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions > > I did not say you wrote that Kshmendra, I said that I was given to understand > it that way from what you were saying. Hence, the question mark in my note > below. Perhaps you are being a little too intelligently vague. In any case, > if you do think there are possibilities here beyond the nation state, > including beyond occupation by and assertion and domination of the Indian > nation state, I'd be very glad to hear of them. Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > Dear Vivek > > > > Either I did not know what I was writing or you chose not > understand. > Either way that is unfortunate. You would not want that > happening with > you. Would you? > > > > Where in this particular thread > have I mentioned or suggested that : > > > > """" any possible > "post-national" solution to the question of Kashmir > is hogwash, > dreamy, > silly, unthinkable""""" > > > > Once you answer that, I could (perhaps > tomorrow) address rest of what > you have written. > > > > > Kshmendra > > _________________________________________ reader-list: an open > discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To > subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the subject header. To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From lalitambardar at hotmail.com Wed Sep 17 15:36:46 2008 From: lalitambardar at hotmail.com (Lalit Ambardar) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 10:06:46 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] =?iso-8859-2?q?_RE=3A__The_construct_of_=27Kashmiri?= =?iso-8859-2?q?yat=27_It_is_a_mix_of_two_ideologies_which_makes_it_to_sta?= =?iso-8859-2?q?nd_somewhere_outside_Islam=2C_analyses_Suhail_Showkeen_=22?= =?iso-8859-2?q?Kashmiriyat=22_is_a_word_in_vogue=2E_Letters_and_articles_?= =?iso-8859-2?q?are_written_regarding_it=2E_Books_and_magazines?= In-Reply-To: <6353c690809162054q2f7d9edaia6ccfb3b5b5aa0dc@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690809162054q2f7d9edaia6ccfb3b5b5aa0dc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: This piece is quite descriptive of the 'pan Islamic agenda' that is being pursued in Kashmir as also in rest of India now. It is this 'perceived belief 'in the 'supremacy' of a particular faith & the claim that only a particular faith seeks to unite the world across the nationalities gives rise to a parochial 'mind set' that manifests itself in the form of the 'ethnic cleansing' of aboriginal Hindu Pandits in Kashmir ; in the 'rabid intolerance' that was seen in the streets of Kashmir against the allotment of a mere 100 acres of land to the co state subjects for the development of the facilities for the pilgrims along the arduous Amaranth pilgrimage route & in the form of repeated 'bloody acts' of 'serial bombings' all over India. This is the mind set that leads a Bangluru born aeronautical engineer to go all the way & blow himself up at Glasgow. This is the mind set that drives a Birmingham born to execute suicide bombing in Srinagar (that was Bilal Ahmed on x-mas eve in 2000, long before 9/11) as well as other hordes of mercenaries to indulge in mayhem in Kashmir. This is the mindset that refuses to accept 'coexistence' & leaves no scope for a 'dialogue'. And this is the mindset that 'betrayed' the much cherished Kashmiriyat when the Hindu Pandits were offered just three options -"ralliv, galliv ya čalliv" i.e "merge, perish or flee". This is the mindset that provokes & instigates the credulous Kashmiri masses & is responsible for the growing number of wailing mothers, widows & orphans in Kashmir. This piece answers most of the 'hearsay' arguments & issues often heard on 'Kashmir ' on this forum. This will also help the growing number of self acclaimed Kashmir experts like Meera Arora Nayak (in response to her posted article) understand who betrayed 'Kashmiriyat' & why? Shabnam Hashmi & her associates could also find certain answers (in response to her appeal to the PM posted here). Consequences of the quest for 'azadi -bara -e- Islam' (freedom through Islam) are apparent. LA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 08:54:23 +0500> From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com> To: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: [Reader-list] The construct of 'Kashmiriyat' It is a mix of two ideologies which makes it to stand somewhere outside Islam, analyses Suhail Showkeen "Kashmiriyat" is a word in vogue. Letters and articles are written regarding it. Books and magazines are published> > > *The construct of 'Kashmiriyat'*> > It is a mix of two ideologies which makes it to stand somewhere outside> Islam, analyses Suhail Showkeen> > "Kashmiriyat" is a word in vogue. Letters and articles are written> regarding it. Books and magazines are published for its promotion and> propagation and media is also used to disseminate the theory of> "Kashmiriyat". A number of articles have appeared and are still appearing in> this newspaper by different authors giving different definitions of this> term. But one thing which is common in all these definitions is that the> very term "Kashmiriyat consists of the inevitable elements-secularism and> nationalism and without these two constituent elements the "concept of> Kashmiriyat" cannot be conceived. In other words, "Kashmiriyat" is nothing> but a hotchpotch of these two ideologies. As Muslims it is obligatory on us> to judge both of these ideologies with true Islamic perspective so that we> may be in a position to accept or reject the same. So in order to form any> opinion regarding "Kashmiriyat", it is necessary that the above-mentioned> two ideologies should be dealt with in detail.> > First comes the ideology of "Secularism". In simple words, secularism is a> principle of separation of religion from politics and this separation is one> of the greatest tragedies in human life. It has reduced religion to become a> private affair between an individual and God. It has also deprived man of> the invaluable guidance of religion in social and collective affairs. It> made ruthless inroads into religion.> > It gainsays all the moral values and declares them to be only relative in> character. By virtue of this "Ism", the man lost the real hold of things and> began to shape his own career with complete disregard to the divine guidance> and thus, became an objective slave of his own passions and desires.> Renaissance brought in its wake this concept of "secularism". What was done> actually is that a line of demarcation was drawn arbitrarily by the men at> the helm of renaissance forces, cynically allotting to Christianity merely a> tiny niche of human life in the shape of Sunday service in the Church and of> the rites of birth and marriage and of burial on death. This new concept of> "secularism" was liberal enough to allow Christianity only a peripheral> existence, and too a din, pale and divorced existence from the storm and> stress of life.> > Consequently, Christianity lost its hold and grip for the political and> collective affairs of man and was left merely as a dogma and a ritual. On> the contrary Islam as a complete divine way of life i.e. "Ad-Deen" demands> full and complete subservience on part of its followers. It strongly negates> rather condemns this so-called separation of religion from politics. It> demands complete implementation in every aspect of life whether private,> collective, social, economic or political. As Allah (SWT) says: "The> religion before Allah is only Islam" (Al-Qur'an, 3:19).> > "If anyone desires a Deen other than Islam, never will it be accepted of> him; and in the hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost"> (Al-Qur'an, 3:85). "O you who believe! Enter into Islam wholeheartedly; and> do not follow the footsteps of the evil one" (AL-Baqarah, 2:208). "This day> I have perfected your Deen for you, completed my favour upon you and have> chosen for you Islam as your Deen". (Al-Maidah, 5:3). Allama Iqbal (RA) has> rightly said: "I behold the politics of secularism, the maid of evil, of low> nature an dead conscience". The great scholar and jurist of contemporary> times Dr. Allama Yousuf-Al Qardawi regards belief in secularism as blasphemy> (Fatawa, Vol: 1, page No. 70).> > The second fundamental element of this "Kashmiriyat" is nationalism.> Nationalism, in simple words is a social attitude, which makes nation and> nationality the over-mastering, centripetal force, to which must gravitate> the whole fabric of society. In nationalism, nation is the master of the> people. Sovereignty vests in nation. The greatest virtue is to sacrifice for> the nation and the greatest crime is to go against it. The expression "my> nation, right or wrong" is redolent of a nationalist mind. This redolence we> can clearly see in the following sayings - Mazzini, the protagonist of> romantic or liberal nationalism, could not refrain from asserting that "the> destinies of Italy are the destinies of the world". Fichte went much further> about Germany and said: "It is first of all the Germans who are called upon> to begin the new era as pioneers and models for the rest of mankind."> (Freedom and Organization by Bertrand Russell, pp 405). He further says: "to> have character and to be German undoubtedly mean one and the some thing".> (Ibid, pp 407). Now every sane person can assess what sort of disaster this> type of biased and fanatic ideology can bring to the humanity, as it did in> the past. This concept of nationalism proved a deathblow to the moral code> and humanitarian view in one's individual and collective affairs. The idea> of the unity of man was completely exploded. Humanity was divided into> innumerable units and groups on the basis of homeland, language, colour,> caste, race, class and community. This helped to create a number of> prejudices. To quote Hans Kohan: "For nationalism represents "vested> interests", not only political and economic but also intellectual and> emotional, of an intensity and extent shown by no previous idea. In the face> of the omnipotence of nationality, humanity seems a distant idea, a pale> theory or a poetic dream through which the red blood of life does not> pulsate". (The idea of nationalism, pp 21-22).> > Now, a far as the two systems - Islam and nationalism are concerned they> stand poles apart. The idea of oneness of man is foreign to the modern> society engulfed by nationalism. It has divided mankind into innumerable> tiny compartments of nation, caste, colour, race etc. on the other hand> Islam strongly believes in the oneness of man. According to Islam all men> are the children of the same parents, Adam and Eve and hence, they are all> brothers. The whole humanity is one family and the whole world is one home.> The artificial walls erected by nationalism between man and man must> therefore be razed to the ground and man must be freed from the tyrannies of> division. Islam frees man from the bondage of his own passions and desires,> from the tradition and customs and from the clutches of other men, nation or> other demigods. In short it frees man from the bondage of man. Allah (SWT)> says: "O mankind! Be careful to your duty to your lord who created you from> a single soul and from it created its mate and from them twain hath spread> abroad a multitude of men and women." (An-Nisa 4:1)> > "And He it is who hath produced you from a single being, and (hath given> you) a habitation and repository." (Al An'aam 6:98) say (O Muhammad): O> mankind! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah to you all". (Al-Aa'raf 7:158). "O> mankind! Lo! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations> and tribes that ye may know one another. Lo! The noblest of you, in the> sight of Allah, is the best in conduct. (Al-Hujrat 49:13).> > In word and deed, our most respected and beloved Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was> the perfect embodiment of the Qur'an and the final guide to the whole> humanity (Kaafatan Naas). His sermon on the occasion of the last pilgrimage> was a remarkable epitome of his ceaseless and indefatigable endeavour. He> reminded the mammoth gathering before him that all human beings were born of> Adam and Adam was born of dust, that the Arab and vice versa and that white> people had no superiority over black people and vice-versa. He commissioned> the concourse present there to convey this message to those who where not> there. It was an address to humanity at large and it constituted the first> and finest character of liberty, equality and freedom of man. May blessing> of Allah and peace be upon Muhammad (SAW) - the real benefactor of humanity?> > It must be clear by now beyond any shadow of doubt that Islam stands of> humanity, super-nationalism, internationalism and nationalism and> categorically negates and opposes this "new European god" of Nationalism> whether it is Racial, Linguistic, Roman, Democratic, Totalitarian or of any> other type. Allama Iqbal (RA) is cent percent right when he says: "The> greatest among fresh Gods is country, its apparel is the shroud of> religion." (Bang-e-Dara).> I have taken pains to discuss extensively these two modern ideologies so> that we may be able to form an opinion about "Kashmiriyat" which is the> hotch-potch of both these ideologies and is being foisted upon the minds of> Kashmiri Muslims through electronic and print media. It is now proved beyond> any doubt that this "Kashmiriyat" is an alien concept and it undoubtedly> undermines the basic concepts of Islam on the one hand and on the other hand> it is this tool of "Kashmiriyat" which has been used to sabotage the concept> of unity among Muslims of the sub-continent.> > As "Kashmiryat" is undoubtedly an un-Islamic rather anti-Islamic ideology,> so it is very strange on part of those "Muslims" who have devoted and are> utilizing their capabilities in promotion and dissemination of this alien> "secular and nationalistic" idea. I would like to conclude with the excerpt> taken from the prophetic and pathetic speech delivered by Moulana Muhammad> Ali Jauhar (RA) at the Round Table Conference in London in 1930, just a few> days before death so that it may serve as an eye-opener for all the secular> and nationalists of the world:> > "Many people in England ask us why this question of Hindu and Muslim comes> into politics and what it has to do with these things. I reply, it is a> wrong conception of religion that you have, it you exclude politics from it.> It is not dogma, it is not ritual! Religion, to my mind, means the> interpretation of life". I have a culture, a polity, an outlook on life - a> complete synthesis which is Islam. Where God commands. I am a Muslim first,> a Muslim second, and a Muslim last, and nothing but a Muslim. we are not> nationalists but super-nationalists, and I as a Muslim say that "God made> man and the devil made the nation." Nationalism divides, our religion binds.> No religious wars, no crusades, have been such holocausts and have been so> cruel as your last war, and that was a war of your nationalism and not my> Jehad"> > (Pakistan Movement Historic Documents by G Allama 1968 Edition, Pages> 81-832)> > Seeing Kashmiriyat through this perspective will not mislead us any further.> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Searching for weekend getaways? Try Live.com http://www.live.com/?scope=video&form=MICOAL From jeebesh at sarai.net Wed Sep 17 16:02:05 2008 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 16:02:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3AE2ACAC-B773-4654-987B-BED43AA564F1@sarai.net> Dear Sonia, It is immensely possible to have a state without standing army, with agreements with bordering State on non-invasion. Many regions of the world will need this in near future. Karen people in Burma could for sure benefit from this. To workout borders of this state is not within my purview. It is something that will be decided in a complex process of negotiation anyway. What I was sharing was a concern to think how to not keep re-in- forcing ideas and positions that keep the "bleeding politics" alive. Lot of writing in this list is deeply immersed in thanatopolitics and need to think about it. warmly jeebesh On 17-Sep-08, at 2:59 PM, S. Jabbar wrote: > Dear Kshemendra, Jeebesh, Vivek, Sanjay and everyone else interested > in > Kashmir, > > I have been away this past month, but have looked at the Sarai List > from > time to time. I find it interesting that the discussion on Kashmir > has > turned to 'post-national' solutions and that Jeebesh volunteered the > Dixon > Plan as one way of arriving at a solution. But if you study the plan > carefully along with the maps you will realise that there are/were > very > valid reasons for why it was rejected in the 1950's itself. > > Since then there have been various attempts to rephrase and re- > package the > Dixon Plan into something more palatable, but because the basis in > all the > subsequent proposals was a division of the state on religious lines > it was > rejected by India. > > What I find interesting about the discussion so far is that most > people seem > content to dismiss the nation-state as inherently obdurate, bent on > making > the lives of Kashmiris, among others, miserable. Some thought and > some work > has been done on Kashmir in the last sixty years, and I think not > only would > it be grossly unfair to the people who have attempted to think about > and do > something on Kashmir if one did not acknowledge it, but it would > also be > reinventing a very flat wheel if one didn't examine past mistakes. > > About a month ago in a discussion with Shuddha I had put forward a > proposal > for a South Asian Union that has been under discussion for several > years > with friends from the region. This would include Afghanistan, > Pakistan, Sri > Lanka, India, Nepal, Bangladesh with the possibility of Tibet and > Burma as > observer states. > > No takers on the list? Well, FYI by 2015 the governments of these > countries > will have in place the South Asian Free Trade Agreement (SAFTA). > This push > is obviously coming from the trade fraternity, but where does this > leave > civil society? Why are we not responding creatively to something > which could > potentially either become a trade agreement which would benefit only > big > business, or something that could mean real freedom for the nearly 2 > billion > people in this region? > > >> From: Vivek Narayanan >> Organization: Sarai >> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 19:55:02 +0530 >> To: , sarai list >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions >> >> I did not say you wrote that Kshmendra, I said that I was given to > understand >> it that way from what you were saying. Hence, the question > mark in my note >> below. Perhaps you are being a little too intelligently > vague. In any case, >> if you do think there are possibilities here beyond > the nation state, >> including beyond occupation by and assertion and > domination of the Indian >> nation state, I'd be very glad to hear of them. > > Kshmendra Kaul wrote: >> >> >> Dear Vivek >> >> >> >> Either I did not know what I was writing or you chose not >> understand. >> Either way that is unfortunate. You would not want that >> happening with >> you. Would you? >> >> >> >> Where in this particular thread >> have I mentioned or suggested that : >> >> >> >> """" any possible >> "post-national" solution to the question of Kashmir >> is hogwash, >> dreamy, >> silly, unthinkable""""" >> >> >> >> Once you answer that, I could (perhaps >> tomorrow) address rest of what >> you have written. >> >> >> >> >> Kshmendra >> >> > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open >> discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To >> subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in >> the subject header. > To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: >> <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From lalitambardar at hotmail.com Wed Sep 17 16:03:24 2008 From: lalitambardar at hotmail.com (Lalit Ambardar) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 10:33:24 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions In-Reply-To: References: <48CFC1BE.9070103@sarai.net> Message-ID: Why not? Infact the idea of SAARC could be taken further on the lines of European Union . Even CIS model could be modified to suite the region. If it is ecnomics that can bring us together let it be . Shared heritage & history should make it easier provided the hidden 'agenda to destablise others' being pursued by some, is abandoned. Regards all LA PS: I have this dream of travelling through this region by road & meet up with all those long lost friends known as well as unknown, spread all over. > Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 14:59:18 +0530> From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com> To: vivek at sarai.net; kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com; reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions> > Dear Kshemendra, Jeebesh, Vivek, Sanjay and everyone else interested in> Kashmir,> > I have been away this past month, but have looked at the Sarai List from> time to time. I find it interesting that the discussion on Kashmir has> turned to 'post-national' solutions and that Jeebesh volunteered the Dixon> Plan as one way of arriving at a solution. But if you study the plan> carefully along with the maps you will realise that there are/were very> valid reasons for why it was rejected in the 1950's itself.> > Since then there have been various attempts to rephrase and re-package the> Dixon Plan into something more palatable, but because the basis in all the> subsequent proposals was a division of the state on religious lines it was> rejected by India. > > What I find interesting about the discussion so far is that most people seem> content to dismiss the nation-state as inherently obdurate, bent on making> the lives of Kashmiris, among others, miserable. Some thought and some work> has been done on Kashmir in the last sixty years, and I think not only would> it be grossly unfair to the people who have attempted to think about and do> something on Kashmir if one did not acknowledge it, but it would also be> reinventing a very flat wheel if one didn't examine past mistakes.> > About a month ago in a discussion with Shuddha I had put forward a proposal> for a South Asian Union that has been under discussion for several years> with friends from the region. This would include Afghanistan, Pakistan, Sri> Lanka, India, Nepal, Bangladesh with the possibility of Tibet and Burma as> observer states. > > No takers on the list? Well, FYI by 2015 the governments of these countries> will have in place the South Asian Free Trade Agreement (SAFTA). This push> is obviously coming from the trade fraternity, but where does this leave> civil society? Why are we not responding creatively to something which could> potentially either become a trade agreement which would benefit only big> business, or something that could mean real freedom for the nearly 2 billion> people in this region?> > > > From: Vivek Narayanan > > Organization: Sarai> > Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 19:55:02 +0530> > To: , sarai list > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions> > > > I did not say you wrote that Kshmendra, I said that I was given to > understand> > it that way from what you were saying. Hence, the question > mark in my note> > below. Perhaps you are being a little too intelligently > vague. In any case,> > if you do think there are possibilities here beyond > the nation state,> > including beyond occupation by and assertion and > domination of the Indian> > nation state, I'd be very glad to hear of them.> > Kshmendra Kaul wrote:> >> >> > Dear Vivek> >> > > >> > Either I did not know what I was writing or you chose not> > understand. > > Either way that is unfortunate. You would not want that> > happening with > > you. Would you?> >> > > >> > Where in this particular thread> > have I mentioned or suggested that :> >> > > >> > """" any possible> > "post-national" solution to the question of Kashmir > > is hogwash,> > dreamy,> > silly, unthinkable"""""> >> > > >> > Once you answer that, I could (perhaps> > tomorrow) address rest of what > > you have written.> >> > > >> >> > Kshmendra> >> >> > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open> > discussion list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To> > subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in> > the subject header.> To unsubscribe:> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive:> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Searching for weekend getaways? Try Live.com http://www.live.com/?scope=video&form=MICOAL From jeebesh at sarai.net Wed Sep 17 16:27:14 2008 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 16:27:14 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Bhagat Singh and Terrorism In-Reply-To: <20080917071804.20819.qmail@f4mail-235-144.rediffmail.com> References: <20080917071804.20819.qmail@f4mail-235-144.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: The early 20th century political activity that was termed "terrorism" never attacked unarmed people. The site of attack was always institution of power or people in power. It wanted to speak out and at times spoke very eloquently on issues of it's time (e.g Bhagat Singh). In the 30s and 40s most of the people who were to sent to the cellular prison in Andaman islands would have been aghast at the mere thought of killing civilians. These people were all called "terrorists". Around late 60s two phenomenon started. One was of hijacking and the other was bombs placed in civilian places. They both are of different origins. In Italy the blast in public places gave rise to theories that speculated "terrorism as state policy" (see http://www.notbored.org/on-terrorism.html) . Since then the word has taken in complex weave of actors, institutions and rhetoric. What we witness at present is very difficult to understand. It hangs judgement (as a friend eloquently described) as there is no immediate culprit who can be put to trail. All kind of speculations run amok and the breeder of "bleeding politics" jump into public discourse to create more unease and fear. In Delhi almost everyone i know has someone or the other effected by a road accidents. But have not met people with a similar proximity to bomb blast victims. The anonymity and suddenness of these acts makes it difficult to think with. Both road accident and bomb blast kills. One much much more than the other. But in one case it's extreme dailyness makes it disappear from thought and in the other it's anonymity allows for all kind of ghost to appear with attendant blood curling noises. best jeebesh On 17-Sep-08, at 12:48 PM, Radhakrishnan wrote: > One is rather amused at the "scholarly" attempts in the production > of multiple truths. > > Bhagat Singh was branded as a terrorist by the British colonial, > alien government and not by the government of an independent nation. > Similarly Nelson Mandela was branded as a terrorist by a minority > white government in South Africa. Kindly don't drag and demean the > contibution of Bhagat Singh by invoking such twisted logic. > > Finally thanks to Simran for enlightening folks about LTTE, its > ethnic affiliation and non-religious orientation. Defining the LTTE > as Hindu terror outfit runs in consonance to popular myth that > Tamils worship Ravana - the villian of Ramayan, notwithstanding the > fact that it was a battle between a Kshatriya and a Brahmin. > > Radhakrishnan > > > On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 reader-list-request at sarai.net wrote : >> Send reader-list mailing list submissions to >> reader-list at sarai.net >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> reader-list-request at sarai.net >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> reader-list-owner at sarai.net >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. [Announcements] green unplugged Festival (Monica Narula) >> 2. Caste and Landlessness in Kerala: Signals from Chengara : KT >> Rammohan (Anivar Aravind) >> 3. Re: Some Points from discussions (Rahul Asthana) >> 4. Re: after yesterday in Delhi (simran chadha) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 21:48:40 +0530 >> From: Monica Narula >> Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] green unplugged Festival >> To: announcements at sarai.net >> Message-ID: <9B319812-B8E7-42CE-AE39-1E3CCC764B6A at sarai.net> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> FYI >> --------------------------------------- >> >> green unplugged >> Share your vision, your spirit, your film. >> Reach audiences across borders with your voice, your consciousness. >> >> ABOUT FESTIVAL : >> >> Culture Unplugged Studios will be launching 'Green Unplugged' - the >> festival where we unite to share our voices, not only as film-makers >> but culture-makers. The festival will facilitate contemplation, >> connection & celebration of life, culture & nature through cinema. We >> invite your green & socially conscious films that bring to light >> nature's demand to wake us to our future - an integrated individual >> and the human society. Share stories that reveal where we come from, >> our collective journey leading to our present and contemplating the >> path beyond. >> >> With this, Culture Unplugged wishes to create a global community of >> conscious creatives and their audiences, to reflect on issues and >> life experiences in contemporary world – creatives/storytellers >> wishing to express and exchange primarily through language of film >> (visual/aural communication), framing the spirit in motion. >> >> >> FESTIVAL DATE : 2008-2009 >> >> FESTIVAL PARTNERS : >> Barrie Osborne (Producer, New Zealand, 7 times - Oscar winner) >> Michael Pyser (Producer, USA, Several Oscar Nomination) >> Shekhar Kapoor (Film-maker/Director, India, Oscar Nominated 2007) >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> -------------------------- >> Last date for receiving of the film 1st week of Novemeber, 2008 >> >> If you participate in the festival, you will be contacted shortly >> prior to the launch of this festival. Post festival, we will be >> launching a permanent venue with the film archive with intention to >> promote transformative films and its film-makers on global level. >> With this venue we intend to create an open & transparent system for >> film-makers and facilitate dialogue among them, their audiences and >> other professionals to fertilize social consciousness. >> >> For participation kindly fill the online form and send us the film/ >> DVD . Multiple entries are welcome. Fill the individual form for each >> film. >> >> To submit the form, please visit: www.cultureunplugged.com/submit/ >> call.html >> >> Monica Narula >> Raqs >> Sarai-CSDS >> 29 Rajpur Road >> Delhi 110 054 >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >> www.sarai.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> announcements mailing list >> announcements at sarai.net >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 10:47:43 +0530 >> From: "Anivar Aravind" >> Subject: [Reader-list] Caste and Landlessness in Kerala: Signals from >> Chengara : KT Rammohan >> To: Greenyouth , "Reader List" >> >> Message-ID: >> <35f96d470809162217n5910bb3bxc91e89c54440140b at mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" >> >>> From current EPW issue >> >> Caste and Landlessness in Kerala: Signals from Chengara >> K T Rammohan >> >> The persistence of colonial patterns of ownership of plantations in >> Kerala remains one of the enduring weaknesses of the land reforms >> programme of the 1970s in the state. The case of Chengara's landless >> dalits underlines the necessity to address the issue of land reforms >> once again. >> Read the full article >> http://www.epw.in/uploads/articles/12642.pdf >> >> Anivar >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 22:21:16 -0700 (PDT) >> From: Rahul Asthana >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions >> To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, sarai list , >> Vivek >> Narayanan >> Message-ID: <792548.85529.qm at web53602.mail.re2.yahoo.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> >> How about a Hong Kong like solution,with autonomy in all areas >> except defense and foreign affairs? IK can stay with India and PK >> with Pak,for the purpose of defense and foreign affairs.IK and PK >> can have a fluid border with each other,but India and Pak can apply >> their immigration policy on the border of Kashmir with the rest of >> the country.The situation can be reviewed by India , Pak and >> Kashmir after 5 years. >> >> --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Vivek Narayanan wrote: >> >>> From: Vivek Narayanan >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions >>> To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, "sarai list" >>> Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 7:55 PM >>> I did not say you wrote that Kshmendra, I said that I was >>> given to >>> understand it that way from what you were saying. Hence, >>> the question >>> mark in my note below. Perhaps you are being a little too >>> intelligently >>> vague. In any case, if you do think there are possibilities >>> here beyond >>> the nation state, including beyond occupation by and >>> assertion and >>> domination of the Indian nation state, I'd be very glad >>> to hear of them. >>> >>> Kshmendra Kaul wrote: >>>> >>>> Dear Vivek >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Either I did not know what I was writing or you chose >>> not understand. >>>> Either way that is unfortunate. You would not want >>> that happening with >>>> you. Would you? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Where in this particular thread have I mentioned or >>> suggested that : >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> """" any possible >>> "post-national" solution to the question of >>> Kashmir >>>> is hogwash, >>>> dreamy, silly, >>> unthinkable""""" >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Once you answer that, I could (perhaps tomorrow) >>> address rest of what >>>> you have written. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Kshmendra >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to >>> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject >>> header. >>> To unsubscribe: >>> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 4 >> Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 12:15:07 +0530 (IST) >> From: simran chadha >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi >> To: Partha Dasgupta >> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >> Message-ID: <533939.66567.qm at web8705.mail.in.yahoo.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Hey Partha and Kshmendra! >>  >> was just curious as to how you called the LTTE a Hindu organisation >> and later ofcourse corrected it by referred to the strong christian >> elements. Sorry, but religion has never played a determining role >> in the LTTE and certainly not Hinduism. The Kovils may have been >> used as hiding places, incidentally, or even for visting on >> festive occasions or distribution of prasad - its a guerilla >> warfare after all so the terraine is as much a part of the mise-en- >> scene; but never never was religion co-mingled with the carrying >> out of a terrorist act. Rather the complete absence of God and >> religion is what makes the LTTE so different from any other >> terrorist outfit, in south asia or japan or ireland. Check out >> their marching song! or the matyrs day celebration - no recourse to >> any higher form of authority than the human. >> yes, charles anthony - prabhakaran's son, who heads the LTTE >> airforce bears a christian name but no belssing of any saint are >> sort before or after. >> my question still remains and i would be glad to be informed, where >> did u get the religious connection from - the manifesto, the >> documents by the Balasingham's where? >> simran >> >> --- On Tue, 16/9/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: >> >> From: Partha Dasgupta >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi >> To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com >> Cc: Date: Tuesday, 16 September, 2008, 6:25 PM >> >> Dear Kshmendra, >> The questions you have asked about 'what is terror', etc is >> something I >> would not like to elaborate on as each has his/her own >> interpretation. >> >> Bhagat Singh is a freedom fighter as far as we Indians are >> concerned, but >> for the govt of the day he was a terrorist. There is no 'standard' >> definition of what a terrorist is and each person / entity would >> translate >> the word in their own way. >> >> As for defining LTTE as Hindu terrorists - guess that question is >> wide open >> depending upon what we use as the pointer. If the primary factor is >> what >> religion / group do they belong to, then we'd have a ready answer. >> >> If, however, we look beyond and try to identify the aim / purpose >> behind the >> conflict, there'd be another answer all together - some of them not >> very >> clear. >> >> Even if a 'terrorist' follows a ideology/religion/place/societal >> group >> - >> that's a personal root that s/he has. It does not follow that all >> people of >> the ideology/religion/place/societal group follow the same radical >> conclusion. >> >> Guess we could go on and on - fact is that we'll all equate the >> phrase >> 'terrorist' from our personal point of view and experiences. >> >> Apologies for sounding vague, but you started a line of thought >> that I'd >> never really looked at before. >> >> Rgds, Partha >> ................................. >> >> On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 5:07 PM, Kshmendra Kaul >> wrote: >> >>> Dear Partha >>> >>> My questioning of the LTTE being called Hindu was to help me in my >>> discussions with my own self. >>> >>> I am still struggling in my mind over 'what is terror'; 'who >> is a >>> terrorist'; 'when should an organisation (or a system) be called a >> terrorist >>> one' and 'when should an act of terror, or a terrorist, or a >> terrorist >>> organisation be identified with an ideology/religion/place/societal >> group'. >>> >>> There is total agreement with your words: >>> >>> """""" The terrorist may belong to any >> religion or caste or place or >>> whatever - however, lumping all the people of that religion or >>> caste or >>> place as terrorists because one or some people from that group >>> performed >>> 'acts of terrorism' is not >> justifiable.""""""" >>> >>> Kshmendra >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> --- On *Tue, 9/16/08, Partha Dasgupta * wrote: >>> >>> From: Partha Dasgupta >>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi >>> To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com >>> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >>> Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 9:37 AM >>> >>> >>> Dear Kshmendra, >>> Studied in Baroda / Vadodra and saw communal rights flare up on >>> the weirdest of reasons. Have seen a close friend who wouldn't kill >>> cockroaches try to burn a bus in the frenzy of a mob. >>> >>> As for defining the LTTE as Hindu - my point is different, and is >> something >>> I have mentioned earlier. The terrorist may belong to any religion >>> or >> caste >>> or place or whatever - however, lumping all the people of that >>> religion or >>> caste or place as terrorists because one or some people from that >>> group >>> performed 'acts of terrorism' is not justifiable. >>> >>> In short, am against the mass generalization wherein we identify >>> an entire >>> group a 'terrorists'. >>> >>> To put it the other way around, am a Hindu, but do not identify >>> with the >>> demolition of the Babri Masjid or the attacks on Christians that is >>> happening. Just a personal belief, but if any person is converting >>> to >>> another faith for benefits accrued then obviously his faith wasn't >> strong in >>> the first place & s/he won't be much of a loss. >>> >>> Rgds, Partha >>> ....................................... >>> >>> On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 7:17 PM, Kshmendra Kaul >> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Partha >>>> >>>> Do not mean to butt in. >>>> >>>> Just wondering whether any 'acts of terrorrising' by the LTTE >> can be >>>> designated as 'acts of terrorising' by Hindus. >>>> >>>> Would it not be more apt to link 'acts of terror' with a >> religious >>>> identity when such 'acts of terror' are carried out in the >> name a particular >>>> religion or are solely based on the religious identity? >>>> >>>> There are many instances of 'acts of terror by Hindus' which >> can be so >>>> designated because they are carried out in the name of Hinduism >>>> or are >>>> solely based upon and connected to the Hindu identity of the >> perpetrators. >>>> >>>> Just wondering. >>>> >>>> Kshmendra >>>> >>>> --- On Sun, 9/14/08, Partha Dasgupta < >>>> partha.dasgupta at eliteinfomachine.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> From: Partha Dasgupta >>>> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi >>>> To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net >>>> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net >>>> Date: Sunday, September 14, 2008, 4:28 PM >>>> >>>> Dear Radhika Rajen, >>>> >>>> In may mails on this list you have pointed out how the elected >>>> representative is only a beneficiary divided caste votes and not a >> true >>>> representative. >>>> >>>> Now you jump to another point altogether and talk about the UPA >>>> chairperson >>>> and the eloctorate. >>>> >>>> Please stick to a viewpoint as it is hard to trace what your >> viewpoint >>>> is. >>>> If you have changed your viewpoint, then please denote so. >>>> >>>> In any case, saw the killings (directly and first hand in Delhi) >> during >>>> the >>>> Sikh militancy days and have seen communal riots in Baroda, >>>> Gujarat; >> and >>>> all >>>> I can say is that when herd mentality takes over the common sense >>>> is >> lost. >>>> >>>> Also, from Babri Masjid to the incapable idiots who got blown up >>>> some >> time >>>> back, we have seen Hindu militancy. >>>> >>>> Either we can agree that militancy in all forms is wrong or we can >> quibble >>>> about shades of right or wrong. >>>> >>>> So, where do you stand: >>>> >>>> a) Militancy & armed conflict is wrong >>>> >>>> OR >>>> >>>> b) Hindu's are allowed to have a conflict as they have been >> repressed as >>>> a >>>> majority >>>> and that cases like Godhra, Sikh killings in Delhi and Babri >> Masjid >>>> are justified. >>>> >>>> Rgds, Partha >>>> >>>> PS: I do note that when you talk of terror, you never refer to the >> LTTE >>>> (Hindu & Indian) which is considered as one of the most dangerous >>>> terrorist >>>> organisations and has killed a Prime Minister of India (and is not >> Muslim >>>> or >>>> Christian) or the killing of Indira Gandi - or is it that since >>>> they >> were >>>> not BJP/RSS that you do not consider them a loss? >>>> ..................................................... >>>> >>>> On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 4:05 PM, wrote: >>>> >>>>> Without getting in to blame games, the need of the moment is the >>>>> chairperson of UPA who is now proxy governor of the nation should >> have >>>> good >>>>> introspection of the events and see if her Home Minister who was >> once >>>>> speaker, but discarded by the electorate, got into rajya sabha by >>>> nomination >>>>> and then is the Home minister, is he capable of any action. A >> dummy >>>> like >>>>> Prime minister, again diitto to the governance who has no >> incentive to >>>>> perform as Prime minister being discard beaucrat, has been of >> yester >>>> years, >>>>> can not make up his mind to take tough action for fear of >> votebank >>>> getting >>>>> "hurt". By this inaction, in actual practise muslims >> are getting >>>> branded as >>>>> terrorists for the simple reason, they are not willing to be >> ready to >>>>> identify, isolate and give up those who indulge in terror >> activities. It >>>> is >>>>> sad scene indeed. Wheras the hindus do not want violence and >> bhajrang >>>> dal >>>>> gets no sympathy for its acts of violence, muslims by floating >> NGOs to >>>>> defend the accused are helping the ter >>>>> ror accused, sheltoring the accused for plain and simple lots of >> money >>>> in >>>>> the trade of defending the terror. >>>>> >>>>> regards. >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: Priya Sen >>>>> Date: Sunday, September 14, 2008 3:18 pm >>>>> Subject: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi >>>>> To: reader-list at sarai.net >>>>> >>>>>> Dear All, >>>>>> >>>>>> India Gate, September 13th, 6:20 or so in the evening. I had >>>>>> decided to walk >>>>>> from Triveni Academy towards Khan Market, determined to buy >> a >>>>>> bicycle and >>>>>> thinking, it's getting dark and maybe I should wait >> until Monday >>>>>> and I >>>>>> shouldn't tell my mother about my biking plans and even >> though I >>>>>> plan to >>>>>> ride early mornings I need to ride it back home now and so >> on and >>>>>> so forth. >>>>>> India Gate was as India Gate is on a weekend evening. >> Walking >>>>>> through it >>>>>> made me think of other times I had been there, a few >> specific >>>>>> memories and a >>>>>> general sense of being in Delhi - of familiarity and ease >> from >>>>>> having been >>>>>> here for as long as I have, and of curiousity, the kind that >> comes >>>>>> fromknowing that places are never the same - making mental >> notes >>>>>> for no one >>>>>> really about the Kwality Walls ice cream cart that had a >> board >>>>>> saying 'Old >>>>>> Vendor, India Gate since 1956', and the astrologer who >> sits in >>>> the >>>>>> sameplace always, and people with video cameras filming the >> gate >>>>>> who always make >>>>>> me wonder at what they think when they play it back later. >> It >>>>>> took 15 >>>>>> minutes to cross over to Shah Jahan Road. Me, a couple of >> young >>>>>> men, and a >>>>>> papad seller who the policeman who was also waiting for the >> lights to >>>>>> change, generally swore at, and I laughed at how swearing is >> so >>>>>> integral to >>>>>> ones day in Delhi. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Later I heard there were a couple of bombs that were >> defused, one >>>>>> at Regal >>>>>> Cinema and one at India Gate. I realized how many stories >> there >>>>>> are now. Of >>>>>> yesterday. Of where we were when.. . Of places we know so >> well. Of >>>>>> our lives >>>>>> up until the moment life changed for so many people in our >> city. >>>>>> Of the >>>>>> things that make our days what they are and will continue >> to. >>>>>> Everyone will >>>>>> have a story because everyone needs to claim something from >>>>>> moments like >>>>>> these. And everyone (in this city) must because this moment >> was >>>>>> about Delhi. >>>>>> It's happened before. Here, in other places, it will >> happen again >>>>>> and again >>>>>> and these will be 'the times according to people who >> live in >>>> these >>>>>> times'.And all we can really do is to embrace our lives >> a little >>>>>> harder. >>>>>> >>>>>> The last time I mourned for this city, a little like this, >> is when >>>>>> I watched >>>>>> Nanglamachi being demolished and people gathering their >> lives into >>>>>> bundlesand tempos and going wherever. The ruthlessness was >>>>>> overwhelming. Not to >>>>>> make analogies here. Although nothing wrong with analogies >> and >>>>>> other things >>>>>> that make us feel what we feel. No rules for that! Think, >> feel >>>>>> whatever - >>>>>> it's all part of the way we make sense of things on day >> 2. It was >>>> like >>>>>> watching the news right after the blasts happened, when the >>>>>> reporters were >>>>>> as bewildered as everyone else. Somehow in their floundering >> the news >>>>>> channels were credible for a moment. Before the information >>>>>> started coming >>>>>> in and before they started interpreting it, that is. We know >> what >>>>>> they do >>>>>> and do well. Nothing is surprising, just a bit defeating and >> then >>>>>> you think >>>>>> why. Maybe we're defeated by the way we think, are told >> to think, >>>>>> don'tthink. Maybe sometimes it has nothing to do with >> how we >>>> live. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Delhi feels quiet today, but that's also from where I >> am. Also >>>>>> it's Sunday. >>>>>> It will probably not seem very different when I go out later >> in the >>>>>> afternoon. But my sister called me this morning and was in >> tears >>>>>> and saying >>>>>> she couldn't sleep because of all this and is feeling >> restless >>>>>> because lakhs >>>>>> of people are going to be out on the streets today for >> Ganapati >>>>>> visarjan in >>>>>> Bombay. For her it's about Bombay as well, the place >> where she >>>> has >>>>>> her life. >>>>>> When public places become vulnerable it means having to make >>>>>> decisions about >>>>>> things one doesn't necessarily think about. It's >> about >>>> everything >>>>>> outside of >>>>>> us that is essential to how we construct our lives. It's >> about >>>>>> everydaydecisions, small things, immediate concerns. About >> being >>>>>> able to imagine, >>>>>> and dream and lose ourselves in places. For a few days we >> will be >>>>>> excruciatingly aware of how we move around the city. There >> will be >>>>>> remorseand anxiety and conversation. We will share a common >> grief, >>>>>> in degrees, and >>>>>> it will bring us together more intensely. We will count and >> blame and >>>>>> speculate. And then we will thankfully, move on. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Right now though, I would rather not. Not for today. I just >> want >>>>>> to be with >>>>>> what this city means to me. Aside from its symbols, its >> creation >>>>>> of itself, >>>>>> its skewed power dynamics and unbearable inequalities. A >> friend >>>>>> and I are >>>>>> convinced that "Delhi steps in when we really need >> something >>>> to.". >>>>>> Like the >>>>>> wisdom of places. Not to get melodramatic! I'm glad I >> was here >>>>>> when this >>>>>> happened and not somewhere else. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Priya >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Priya Sen >>>>>> Sarai-CSDS >>>>>> 29, Rajpur Road, Civil Lines >>>>>> Delhi - 110054 >>>>>> priya at sarai.net >>>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> with >>>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>>> To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >>>>>> list >>>>>> List archive: >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _________________________________________ >>>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>>> To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>>> List archive: >> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Partha Dasgupta >>>> +919811047132 >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in >>>> the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Partha Dasgupta >>> +919811047132 >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Partha Dasgupta >> +919811047132 >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in >> the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> >> >> Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or >> yourname at rocketmail.com. Click here http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> reader-list mailing list >> reader-list at sarai.net >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> >> End of reader-list Digest, Vol 62, Issue 101 >> ******************************************** > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Wed Sep 17 16:33:01 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 16:03:01 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] LTTE In-Reply-To: <20080916172608.49466.qmail@f4mail-235-244.rediffmail.com> References: <20080916172608.49466.qmail@f4mail-235-244.rediffmail.com> Message-ID: Kshemendra, do come to Tamilnadu, then you will see the havoc created by fuedal lords of other backward castes in this state. As to LTTE and its chief, please note that velupillai Prabhakaran is a christian, his son Anthony heading the "air force " of LTTE is christian, so would you say it is christian crusade. ? By the way, in interior Tamilnadu, Karnataka one can find many individuals thanks to pentecostal missionaries, the individuals have names such as Monaharan Das, Anthony suryadas, Sagayadas, etc, who go for sunday prayers at the prayer halls of pentecostal and also go to Muruga temple or mariamman temple. Sad issue is these are all neglected poor of the society in secular rule of the nation, fed only with slogans of garibi hatao. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Radhakrishnan Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 10:56 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] LTTE To: reader-list at sarai.net > The LTTE is not an Indian Organisation, similarly SIMI is not an > arabian or pakistani organisation. The conflict is on ethno- > religious lines. So please don't drag LTTE-a fascist organisation > in scoring brownie points here in India. The context and causes > are qualitatively different in Srilanka. > > We have our own quota of Hindu,Muslim, Christian (NSCN, > pentacoatal) fundamentalism and groups of bigots in India so there > is no need to look outside. > > Radhakrishnan   > > > On Tue, 16 Sep 2008 reader-list-request at sarai.net wrote : > >Send reader-list mailing list submissions to > > reader-list at sarai.net > > > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > >You can reach the person managing the list at > > reader-list-owner at sarai.net > > > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > >than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." > > > > > >Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: after yesterday in Delhi (Kshmendra Kaul) > > 2. Re: Some Points from discussions (Jeebesh) > > 3. Re: Some Points from discussions (Vivek Narayanan) > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---- > > > >Message: 1 > >Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 04:37:34 -0700 (PDT) > > From: Kshmendra Kaul > >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi > >To: Partha Dasgupta > >Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > >Message-ID: <555100.70334.qm at web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > >Dear Partha > > > >My questioning of the LTTE being called Hindu was to help me in > my discussions with my own self. > > > >I am still struggling in my mind over 'what is terror'; 'who is a > terrorist'; 'when should an organisation (or a system) be called > a terrorist one' and 'when should an act of terror, or a > terrorist, or a terrorist organisation be identified with an > ideology/religion/place/societal group'. > > > >There is total agreement with your words: > > > >"""""" The terrorist may belong to any religion or caste or place > or whatever - however, lumping all the people of that religion or > caste or place as terrorists because one or some people from that > group performed 'acts of terrorism' is not justifiable.""""""" > > > >Kshmendra > > > > > > > > > > > >--- On Tue, 9/16/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > From: Partha Dasgupta > >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi > >To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > >Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > >Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 9:37 AM > > > > > > > >Dear Kshmendra, > > > > > >Studied in Baroda / Vadodra and saw communal rights flare up on > the weirdest of reasons. Have seen a close friend who wouldn't > kill cockroaches try to burn a bus in the frenzy of a mob. > > > > > >As for defining the LTTE as Hindu - my point is different, and is > something I have mentioned earlier. The terrorist may belong to > any religion or caste or place or whatever - however, lumping all > the people of that religion or caste or place as terrorists > because one or some people from that group performed 'acts of > terrorism' is not justifiable. > > > > > >In short, am against the mass generalization wherein we identify > an entire group a 'terrorists'. > > > > > >To put it the other way around, am a Hindu, but do not identify > with the demolition of the Babri Masjid or the attacks on > Christians that is happening. Just a personal belief, but if any > person is converting to another faith for benefits accrued then > obviously his faith wasn't strong in the first place & s/he won't > be much of a loss. > > > > > >Rgds, Partha > >....................................... > > > > > >On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 7:17 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > wrote: > > > >Dear Partha > > > >Do not mean to butt in. > > > >Just wondering whether any 'acts of terrorrising' by the LTTE > can be designated as 'acts of terrorising' by Hindus. > > > >Would it not be more apt to link 'acts of terror' with a > religious identity when such 'acts of terror' are carried out in > the name a particular religion or are solely based on the > religious identity? > > > >There are many instances of 'acts of terror by Hindus' which can > be so designated because they are carried out in the name of > Hinduism or are solely based upon and connected to the > Hindu identity of the perpetrators. > > > >Just wondering. > > > >Kshmendra =3E > > > > >--- On Sun, 9/14/08, Partha Dasgupta > wrote: > > > > From: Partha Dasgupta > >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi > >To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > >Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > >Date: Sunday, September 14, 2008, 4:28 PM > > > > > > > > > >Dear Radhika Rajen, > > > >In may mails on this list you have pointed out how the elected > >representative is only a beneficiary divided caste votes and not > a true > >representative. > > > >Now you jump to another point altogether and talk about the UPA > chairperson>and the eloctorate. > > > >Please  stick to a viewpoint as it is hard to trace what your > viewpoint is. > >If you have changed your viewpoint, then please denote so. > > > >In any case, saw the killings (directly and first hand in Delhi) > during the > >Sikh militancy days and have seen communal riots in Baroda, > Gujarat; and all > >I can say is that when herd mentality takes over the common sense > is lost. > > > >Also, from Babri Masjid to the incapable idiots who got blown up > some time > >back, we have seen Hindu militancy. > > > >Either we can agree that militancy in all forms is wrong or we > can quibble > >about shades of right or wrong. > > > >So, where do you stand: > > > >a)   Militancy & armed conflict is wrong > > > >OR > > > >b)   Hindu's are allowed to have a conflict as they have been > repressed as > >a > >majority > >     and that cases like Godhra, Sikh killings in Delhi and > Babri Masjid > >are justified. > > > >Rgds, Partha > > > >PS: I do note that when you talk of terror, you never refer to > the LTTE > >(Hindu & Indian) which is considered as one of the most dangerous > terrorist>organisations and has killed a Prime Minister of India > (and is not Muslim or > >Christian) or the killing of Indira Gandi - or is it that since > they were > >not BJP/RSS that you do not consider them a loss? > >..................................................... > > > >On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 4:05 PM, wrote: > > > > > Without getting in to blame games, the need of the moment is the > > > chairperson of UPA who is now proxy governor of the nation > should have > >good > > > introspection of the events and see if her Home Minister who > was once > > > speaker, but discarded by the electorate, got into rajya sabha by > >nomination > > >  and then is the Home minister, is he capable of any action. > A dummy like > > > Prime minister, again diitto to the governance who has no > incentive to > > > perform as Prime minister being discard beaucrat, has been >  of yester > >years, > > > can not make up his mind to take tough action for fear of > votebank getting > > > "hurt". By this inaction, in actual practise muslims are getting > >branded as > > > terrorists for the simple reason, they are not willing to be > ready to > > > identify, isolate and give up those who indulge in terror > activities. It > >is > > > sad scene indeed. Wheras the hindus do not want violence and > bhajrang dal > > > gets no sympathy for its acts of violence, muslims by floating > NGOs to > > > defend the accused are helping the ter > > > ror accused, sheltoring the accused for plain and simple lots > of money in > > > the trade of defending the terror. > > > > > > regards. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Priya Sen > > > Date: Sunday, September 14, 2008 3:18 pm > > > Subject: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > > > Dear All, > > > > > > > > India Gate, September 13th, 6:20 or so in the evening. I had > > > > decided to walk > > > > from Triveni Academy towards Khan Market, determined to buy a > > > > bicycle and > > > > thinking, it's getting dark and maybe I should wait until Monday > > > > and I > > > > shouldn't tell my mother about my biking plans and even > though I > > > > plan to > > > > ride early mornings I need to ride it back home now and so > on and > > > > so forth. > > > > India Gate was as India Gate is on a weekend evening. Walking > > > > through it > > > > made me think of other times I had been there, a few specific > > > > memories and a > > > > general sense of being in Delhi - of familiarity and ease from > > > > having been > > > > here for as long as I have, and of curiousity, the kind that > comes> > > fromknowing that places are never the same - making > mental notes > > > > for no one > > > > really about the Kwality Walls ice cream cart that had a board > > > > saying 'Old > > > > Vendor, India Gate since 1956', and the astrologer who sits in > >the > > > > sameplace always, and people with video cameras filming the gate > > > > who always make > > > > me wonder at what they think  when they play it back later. It > > > > took 15 > > > > minutes to cross over to Shah Jahan Road. Me, a couple of young > > > > men, and a > > > > papad seller who the policeman who was also waiting for the > lights to > > > > change, generally swore at, and I laughed at how swearing is so > > > > integral to > > > > ones day in Delhi. > > > > > > > > > > > > Later I heard there were a couple of bombs that were > defused, one > > > > at Regal > > > > Cinema and one at India Gate. I realized how many stories there > > > > are now. Of > > > > yesterday. Of where we were when.. . Of places we know so > well. Of > > > > our lives > > > > up until the moment life changed for so many people in our city. > > > > Of the > > > > things that make our days what they are and will continue to. > > > > Everyone will > > > > have a story because everyone needs to claim something from > > > > moments like > > > > these. And everyone (in this city) must because this moment was > > > > about Delhi. > > > > It's happened before. Here, in other places, it will happen > again> > > and again > > > > and these will be 'the times according to people who live in > >these > > > > times'.And all we can really do is to embrace our lives a little > > > > harder. > > > > > > > > The last time I mourned for this city, a little like this, > is when > > > > I watched > > > > Nanglamachi being demolished and people gathering their > lives into > > > > bundlesand tempos and going wherever. The ruthlessness was > > > > overwhelming. Not to > > > > make analogies here. Although nothing wrong with analogies and > > > > other things > > > > that make us feel what we feel. No rules for that! Think, feel > > > > whatever - > > > > it's all part of theway we make sense of things on day 2. > It was > >like > > > > watching the news right after the blasts happened, when the > > > > reporters were > > > > as bewildered as everyone else. Somehow in their floundering > the news > > > > channels were credible for a moment. Before the information > > > > started coming > > > > in and before they started interpreting it, that is. We know > what> > > they do > > > > and do well. Nothing is surprising, just a bit defeating and > then> > > you think > > > > why. Maybe we're defeated by the way we think, are told to > think,> > > don'tthink. Maybe sometimes it has nothing to do with > how we > >live. > > > > > > > > > > > > Delhi feels quiet today, but that's also from where I am. Also > > > > it's Sunday. > > > > It will probably not seem very different when I go out later > in the > > > > afternoon. But my sister called me this morning and was in tears > > > > and saying > > > > she couldn't sleep because of all this and is feeling restless > > > > because lakhs > > > > of people are going to be out on the streets today for Ganapati > > > > visarjan in > > > > Bombay. For her it's about Bombay as well, the place where she > >has > > > > her life. > > > > When public places become vulnerable it means having to make > > > > decisions about > > > > things one doesn't necessarily think about. It's about > >everything > > > > outside of > > > > us that is essential to how we construct our lives. It's about > > > > everydaydecisions, small things, immediate concerns. About being > > > > able to imagine, > > > > and dream and lose ourselves in places. For a few days we > will be > > > > excruciatingly aware of how we move around the city. There > will be > > > > remorseand anxiety and conversation. We will share a common > grief,> > > in degrees, and > > > > it will bring us together more intensely. We will count and > blame and > > > > speculate. And then we will thankfully, move on. > > > > > > > > > > > > Right now though, I would rather not. Not for today. I just want > > > > to be with > > > > what this city means to me. Aside from its symbols, its creation > > > > of itself, > > > > its skewed power dynamics and unbearable inequalities. A friend > > > > and I are > > > > convinced that "Delhi steps in when we really need something > >to.". > > > > Like the > > > > wisdom of places. Not to get melodramatic! I'm glad I was here > > > > when this > > > > happened and not somewhere else. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > Priya > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Priya Sen > > > > Sarai-CSDS > > > > 29, Rajpur Road, Civil Lines > > > > Delhi - 110054 > > > > priya at sarai.net > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with> > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > > list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list> > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > >-- > >Partha Dasgupta > >+919811047132 > > > > > > > >_________________________________________ > >reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >Critiques & Collaborations > >To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > >the subject header. > >To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >List archive: > > > > > > > >_________________________________________ > >reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >Critiques & Collaborations > >To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > >To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >List archive: > > > > > >-- > >Partha Dasgupta > >+919811047132 > > > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------ > > > >Message: 2 > >Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 17:44:50 +0530 > > From: Jeebesh > >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions > >To: Sarai Reader-list > >Message-ID: > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; format=flowed; > delsp=yes> > >Is it so difficult as you make it out to be? > > > >enclosed is the UN resolution in 1951. Surely many maps and documents > >about border was submitted. It can be ascertained and worked out. > > > >warmly > >jeebesh > > > >http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/kashun91.htm > >Resolution 91 (1951) > >Concerning the India-Pakistan question submitted by the > >Representatives of > >United Kingdom and United States and adopted by the Security > Council on > >March 30, 1951. > >(Document No. S/2017/Rev. 1, dated the 30th March, 1951). > > > >THE SECURITY COUNCIL, > >Having received and noted the report of Sir Owen Dixon, the United > >Nations Representative for > >India and Pakistan on his mission initiated by the Security Council > >resolution 80 (1950) of March > >14, 1950. > > > >Observing that the Governments of India and Pakistan have > accepted the > >provisions of the United > >Nations Commission for India and Pakistan resolutions of 13 August, > >1948, and 5 January, 1949, > >and have re-affirmed their desire that the future of the State of > >Jammu and Kashmir shall be decided > >through the democratic method of a free and impartial plebiscite > >conducted under the auspices of the > >United Nations. > > > >Observing that on 27 October, 1950, the General Council of the "All > >Jammu and Kashmir National > >Conference" adopted a resolution recommending the convening of a > >Constituent Assembly for the > >purpose of determining the "future shape and affiliations of the >State>of Jammu and Kashmir"; > >observing further from statements of responsible authorities that > >action is proposed to convene such > >a Constituent Assembly and that the area from which such a > Constituent>Assembly would be elected > >is only a part of the whole territory of Jammu and Kashmir. > > > >Reminding the Governments and authorities concerned of the principle > >embodied in its resolutions 47 > >(1948) of 21 April 1948, 51(1948) of 3 June, 1948 and 80 (1950) > of 14 > >March, 1950 and the > >United Nations Commission for India and Pakistan resolutions of 13 > >August, 1948, and 5 January, > >1949, that the final disposition of the State of Jammu and Kashmir > >will be made in accordance with > >the will of the people expressed through the democratic method of a > >free and impartial plebiscite > >conducted under the auspices of the United Nations. > > > >Affirming that the convening of a Constituent Assembly as recommended > >by the General Council of > >the "All Jammu and Kashmir National Conference" and any action that > >Assembly might attempt to > >take to determine the future shape and affiliation of the entire > State>or any part thereof would not > >constitute a disposition of the State in accordance with the above > >principle. > > > >Declaring its belief that it is the duty of the Security Council in > >carrying out its primary responsibility > >for the maintenance of international peace and security to aid the > >parties to reach an amicable > >solution of the Kashmir dispute and that a prompt settlement of this > >dispute is of vital importance to > >the maintenance of international peace and security. > > > >Observing from Sir Owen Dixon's report that the main points of > >difference preventing agreement > >between the parties were: > > > >(a) The procedure for and the extent of demilitarisation of the State > >preparatory to the holding > >of a plebiscite, and > > > >(b) The degree of control over the exercise of the functions of > >Government in the State > >necessary to ensure a free and fair plebiscite. > > > >(1) Accepts, in compliance with his request, Sir Owen Dixon's > >resignation and expresses its > >gratitude to Sir Owen Dixon's resignation and expresses its gratitude > >to Sir Owen for the great ability > >and devotion with which he carried out his mission; > > > >(2) Decides to appoint a United Nations Representative for India and > >Pakistan in succession to Sir > >Owen Dixon; > > > >(3) Instructs the United Nations Representative to proceed to the > sub- > >continent and, after > >consultation with the Governments of India and Pakistan, to > effect the > >demilitarisation of the State of > >Jammu and Kashmir on the basis of the United Nations Commission for > >India and Pakistan > >resolutions of 13 August, 1948, and, 5 January, 1949; > > > >(4) Calls upon the parties to co-operate with the United Nations > >Representative to the fullest degree > >in effecting the demilitarisation of the State of Jammu and Kashmir; > > > >(5) Instructs the United Nations Representatives to report to the > >Security Council within three > >months from the date of his arrival on the sub-continent; if at the > >time of this report, he has not > >effected demilitarisation in accordance with paragraph three > above, or > >obtained the agreement of the > >parties to a plan for effecting such demilitarisation, the United > >Nations Representative shall report to > >the Security Council those points of difference between the > parties in > >regard to the interpretation and > >execution of the agreed resolutions of 13 August, 1948, and 5 > January,>1949, which he considers > >must be resolved to enable such demilitarisation to be carried out; > > > >(6) Calls upon the parties, in the event of their discussions > with the > >United Nations Representative > >failing in his opinion to result in full agreement, to accept > >arbitration upon all outstanding points of > >difference reported by the United Nations representative in > accordance>with paragraph five above. > >Such arbitration to be carried 'out by an arbitrator, or a panel of > >arbitrators, to be appointed by the > >President of the International Court of Justice after consultation > >with the parties; > > > >(7) Decides that the Military Observer Group shall continue to > >supervise the cease-fire in the State; > > > >(8) Requests the Governments of India and Pakistan to ensure that > >their cement regarding the > >cease-fire shall continue to be faithfully observed and calls > them to > >take all possible measures to > >ensure the creation and maintenance of an atmosphere favourable > to the > >promotion of further > >negotiations and to refrain from any likely to prejudice a just and > >peaceful settlement; > > > >(9) Requests the Secretary-General to provide the United Nations > >Representative for India and > >Pakistan with such services and facilities as may be necessary in > >carrying out the terms of this > >resolution. > > > >The Security Council voted on this Resolution on 30-3-51 with the > >following result: > >In favour: Brazil, China, Ecuador, France, Netherlands, Turkey, U.K. > >and U.S.A. > >Against: None > >Abstaining: India, U.S.S.R. and Yugoslavia. > > > >On 16-Sep-08, at 4:50 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > > > Dear Jeebesh > > > > > > You are overstepping yourself. We are still on Point 1 of your > > > "possible ways" arising from your "some friends were talking about > > > different way of thinking about Kashmir." > > > > > > "Referendum" was not in the menu of "possible ways" you > floated. Let > > > us get back to your "Demilitarized Zone" > > > > > > You say that a "wide area" has to be De-militarized. That is a > > > meaningless generality. Specify that "wide area" if you can. You > > > will not be able to do it if you have not thought over the > "possible> > ways" you have floated. Do some thinking first. > > > > > > You suggest a "popular suffrage" to mark the "border". Over what > > > "area" do you propose that this "popular suffrage" will take > place?> > In that "area" who will participate? > > > > > > Obviously the "suffrage" cannot take place specifically in any > > > proposed "wide area" on "both sides of the border" which you seek > > > to De-militarize because the very purpose of the "suffrage" is to > > > demarcate precisely that "wide area". > > > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Jeebesh wrote: > > > > > > From: Jeebesh > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions > > > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > > > Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 4:14 PM > > > > > > Another Floater :) > > > > > > For a serious referendum to happen a very wide area has to be > > > demilitarized on both side of the present border. There can be a > > > popular suffrage to mark the border and hopefully something better > > > than the present situation may emerge. > > > =3E > > But my floater was not so much about the real-politic of border > > > making. It was about thinking a side ways to get out of this > > > "bleeding" politics and use all the various available > international> > institutions and instruments to arrive at some > new arrangements. > > > > > > warmly > > > Jeebesh > > > > > > > > > On 16-Sep-08, at 3:38 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > > > >> Dear Jeebesh > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> The "Demilitarized Zone" is your proposal and not mine. You > > > should > > >> be the one to specify its borders. Unless, as is more than likely > > >> and is apparent, you have done very little thinking over the idea > > >> you have floated. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Kshmendra > > >> > > >> --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Jeebesh wrote: > > >> > > >> From: Jeebesh > > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions > > >> To: "Sarai Reader-list" > > >> Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 1:15 PM > > >> > > >> On 15-Sep-08, at 11:33 PM, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > > >> > > >>> But I think a BD led UN peacekeeping force in Kashmir would > not fly. > > >> > > >> Why not? :) It will be South Asia in a complex entangle. > > >> > > >> And Kshmendra, borders are always a contested lines. You could > > >> suggest > > >> what it could be. > > >> > > >> _________________________________________ > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >> subscribe in > > >> the subject header. > > >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> List archive: > > >> > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in > > > the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list> > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list> > List archive: > > > > > > > >------------------------------ > > > >Message: 3 > >Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 18:21:19 +0530 > > From: Vivek Narayanan > >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions > >To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, sarai list > >Message-ID: <48CFABC7.40008 at sarai.net> > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed > > > >Kshemendra, > > > >I understand from your comments below that you think that any > possible>"post-national" solution to the question of Kashmir is > hogwash, dreamy, > >silly, unthinkable-- in the same way that the idea of a nation-state > >with a democratic polity was completely unthinkable a few hundred > years>ago? After all, it is not the specifics of one plan or > another that you > >are objecting to, it is the very idea itself, correct? > > > >Fine-- but my question is, what is your solution? Do you think > >violently assertive forcible Indian military occupation, objected > to by > >the majority of the Kashmiri population, with all kinds of ripple > >effects including (possibly) the steadily increasing militancy and > >radicalisation of the population, the increasing bitterness that > reduces>the chances of reconcilliation and peace day by day, and only > >increasingly so, should and can continue until kingdom come? Or > do you > >have any other ideas and possibilities in mind? > > > >I ask this as an earnest question, out of curiousity, not as a > polemical>point. > > > >Vivek > > > >Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > Dear Jeebesh > > > > > > You are overstepping yourself. We are still on Point 1 of > your "possible ways" arising from your "some friends were talking > about different way of thinking about Kashmir." > > > > > > "Referendum" was not in the menu of "possible ways" you > floated. Let us get back to your "Demilitarized Zone" > > > > > > You say that a "wide area" has to be De-militarized. That is a > meaningless generality. Specify that "wide area" if you can. You > will not be able to do it if you have not thought over the > "possible ways" you have floated. Do some thinking first. > > > > > > You suggest a "popular suffrage" to mark the "border". Over > what "area" do you propose that this "popular suffrage" will take > place? In that "area" who will participate? > > > > > > Obviously the "suffrage" cannot take place specifically in any > proposed "wide area" on "both sides of the border" which you seek > to De-militarize because the very purpose of the "suffrage" is to > demarcate precisely that "wide area". > > > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Jeebesh wrote: > > > > > > From: Jeebesh > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions > > > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > > > Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 4:14 PM > > > > > > Another Floater :) > > > > > > For a serious referendum to happen a very wide area has to be > > > demilitarized on both side of the present border. There can be a > > > popular suffrage to mark the border and hopefully something better > > > than the present situation may emerge. > > > > > > But my floater was not so much about the real-politic of border > > > making. It was about thinking a side ways to get out of this > > > "bleeding" politics and use all the various available > international> > institutions and instruments to arrive at some > new arrangements. > > > > > > warmly > > > Jeebesh > > > > > > > > > On 16-Sep-08, at 3:38 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > > > > > > >> Dear Jeebesh > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> The "Demilitarized Zone" is your proposal and not mine. You > > >> > > > should > > > > > >> be the one to specify its borders. Unless, as is more than likely > > >> and is apparent, you have done very little thinking over the idea > > >> you have floated. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Kshmendra > > >> > > >> --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Jeebesh wrote: > > >> > > >> From: Jeebesh > > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions > > >> To: "Sarai Reader-list" > > >> Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 1:15 PM > > >> > > >> On 15-Sep-08, at 11:33 PM, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >>> But I think a BD led UN peacekeeping force in Kashmir would > not fly. > > >>> > > >> Why not? :) It will be South Asia in a complex entangle. > > >> > > >> And Kshmendra, borders are always a contested lines. You > could suggest > > >> what it could be. > > >> > > >> _________________________________________ > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >> subscribe in > > >> the subject header. > > >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> List archive: > > >> > > >> > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in > > > the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list> > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list> > List archive: > > > > > > > >------------------------------ > > > >_______________________________________________ > >reader-list mailing list > >reader-list at sarai.net > >https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > >End of reader-list Digest, Vol 62, Issue 90 > >******************************************* > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From krishnanrr at rediffmail.com Wed Sep 17 17:23:59 2008 From: krishnanrr at rediffmail.com (Radhakrishnan) Date: 17 Sep 2008 11:53:59 -0000 Subject: [Reader-list] LTTE Message-ID: <20080917115359.47024.qmail@f4mail-235-128.rediffmail.com> I just want to clarify that I am not holding the flag for the LTTE - which I have very clearly mentioned as a terrorist organisation with fascists streaks - it had eliminated moderate tamil groups and their leaders like Amritalingam in a cold blood.  I also had seen former Chief Minister Varadarajan Perumal in a very sorry situation some years ago. LTTE is seen as a movement on ethnic lines vis a vis Sinhala state appratus. So can't brand it as a Christian or Hindu outfit.I am subject to correction.Kindly provide the necessary literature or substanciate the arguement. Yes we are also witnessing regressive movements with the advent of globalisation like Islamic resurgence and Evangilical/Pentacosatal movement across the globe and Hindu communalism/Political Hindutva in India to be specific, which doesn't augur well for a secular and hetrogenous nation like us. As I had mentioned earlier that women, Dalits and other marginalized sections continue to bear the brunt of religious bigots. so its high time to take strict action and also sek suitable amendments in the constitution to defend the lives and dignity of Dalits and women by seeking abolition of polygamy, addressing the anomolies like rights of inheritance....Mahendra Singh Tikait had warned the government to desist from providing women the right to inherit agricultural land...there are many many examples.. Regards Radhakrishnan On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote : >Kshemendra, do come to Tamilnadu, then you will see the havoc created by fuedal lords of other backward castes in this state. > >As to LTTE and its chief, please note that velupillai Prabhakaran is a christian, his son Anthony heading the "air force " of LTTE is christian, so would you say it is christian crusade. ? > > By the way, in interior Tamilnadu, Karnataka one can find many individuals thanks to pentecostal missionaries, the individuals have names such as Monaharan Das, Anthony suryadas, Sagayadas, etc, who go for sunday prayers at the prayer halls of pentecostal and also go to Muruga temple or mariamman temple. Sad issue is these are all neglected poor of the society in secular rule of the nation, fed only with slogans of garibi hatao. > >Regards. >----- Original Message ----- > From: Radhakrishnan >Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 10:56 pm >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] LTTE >To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > The LTTE is not an Indian Organisation, similarly SIMI is not an > > arabian or pakistani organisation. The conflict is on ethno- > > religious lines. So please don't drag LTTE-a fascist organisation > > in scoring brownie points here in India. The context and causes > > are qualitatively different in Srilanka. > > > > We have our own quota of Hindu,Muslim, Christian (NSCN, > > pentacoatal) fundamentalism and groups of bigots in India so there > > is no need to look outside. > > > > Radhakrishnan > > > > > > On Tue, 16 Sep 2008 reader-list-request at sarai.net wrote : > > >Send reader-list mailing list submissions to > > > reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > > > >You can reach the person managing the list at > > > reader-list-owner at sarai.net > > > > > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > >than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." > > > > > > > > >Today's Topics: > > > > > > 1. Re: after yesterday in Delhi (Kshmendra Kaul) > > > 2. Re: Some Points from discussions (Jeebesh) > > > 3. Re: Some Points from discussions (Vivek Narayanan) > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------ > > ---- > > > > > >Message: 1 > > >Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 04:37:34 -0700 (PDT) > > > From: Kshmendra Kaul > > >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi > > >To: Partha Dasgupta > > >Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > >Message-ID: <555100.70334.qm at web57208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> > > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > > >Dear Partha > > > > > >My questioning of the LTTE being called Hindu was to help me in > > my discussions with my own self. > > > > > >I am still struggling in my mind over 'what is terror'; 'who is a > > terrorist'; 'when should an organisation (or a system) be called > > a terrorist one' and 'when should an act of terror, or a > > terrorist, or a terrorist organisation be identified with an > > ideology/religion/place/societal group'. > > > > > >There is total agreement with your words: > > > > > >"""""" The terrorist may belong to any religion or caste or place > > or whatever - however, lumping all the people of that religion or > > caste or place as terrorists because one or some people from that > > group performed 'acts of terrorism' is not justifiable.""""""" > > > > > >Kshmendra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--- On Tue, 9/16/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > > > From: Partha Dasgupta > > >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi > > >To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > > >Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > >Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 9:37 AM > > > > > > > > > > > >Dear Kshmendra, > > > > > > > > >Studied in Baroda / Vadodra and saw communal rights flare up on > > the weirdest of reasons. Have seen a close friend who wouldn't > > kill cockroaches try to burn a bus in the frenzy of a mob. > > > > > > > > >As for defining the LTTE as Hindu - my point is different, and is > > something I have mentioned earlier. The terrorist may belong to > > any religion or caste or place or whatever - however, lumping all > > the people of that religion or caste or place as terrorists > > because one or some people from that group performed 'acts of > > terrorism' is not justifiable. > > > > > > > > >In short, am against the mass generalization wherein we identify > > an entire group a 'terrorists'. > > > > > > > > >To put it the other way around, am a Hindu, but do not identify > > with the demolition of the Babri Masjid or the attacks on > > Christians that is happening. Just a personal belief, but if any > > person is converting to another faith for benefits accrued then > > obviously his faith wasn't strong in the first place & s/he won't > > be much of a loss. > > > > > > > > >Rgds, Partha > > >....................................... > > > > > > > > >On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 7:17 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > > wrote: > > > > > >Dear Partha > > > > > >Do not mean to butt in. > > > > > >Just wondering whether any 'acts of terrorrising' by the LTTE > > can be designated as 'acts of terrorising' by Hindus. > > > > > >Would it not be more apt to link 'acts of terror' with a > > religious identity when such 'acts of terror' are carried out in > > the name a particular religion or are solely based on the > > religious identity? > > > > > >There are many instances of 'acts of terror by Hindus' which can > > be so designated because they are carried out in the name of > > Hinduism or are solely based upon and connected to the > > Hindu identity of the perpetrators. > > > > > >Just wondering. > > > > > >Kshmendra > > > > > > > > >--- On Sun, 9/14/08, Partha Dasgupta > > wrote: > > > > > > From: Partha Dasgupta > > >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi > > >To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > >Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > >Date: Sunday, September 14, 2008, 4:28 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Dear Radhika Rajen, > > > > > >In may mails on this list you have pointed out how the elected > > >representative is only a beneficiary divided caste votes and not > > a true > > >representative. > > > > > >Now you jump to another point altogether and talk about the UPA > > chairperson>and the eloctorate. > > > > > >Please  stick to a viewpoint as it is hard to trace what your > > viewpoint is. > > >If you have changed your viewpoint, then please denote so. > > > > > >In any case, saw the killings (directly and first hand in Delhi) > > during the > > >Sikh militancy days and have seen communal riots in Baroda, > > Gujarat; and all > > >I can say is that when herd mentality takes over the common sense > > is lost. > > > > > >Also, from Babri Masjid to the incapable idiots who got blown up > > some time > > >back, we have seen Hindu militancy. > > > > > >Either we can agree that militancy in all forms is wrong or we > > can quibble > > >about shades of right or wrong. > > > > > >So, where do you stand: > > > > > >a)   Militancy & armed conflict is wrong > > > > > >OR > > > > > >b)   Hindu's are allowed to have a conflict as they have been > > repressed as > > >a > > >majority > > >     and that cases like Godhra, Sikh killings in Delhi and > > Babri Masjid > > >are justified. > > > > > >Rgds, Partha > > > > > >PS: I do note that when you talk of terror, you never refer to > > the LTTE > > >(Hindu & Indian) which is considered as one of the most dangerous > > terrorist>organisations and has killed a Prime Minister of India > > (and is not Muslim or > > >Christian) or the killing of Indira Gandi - or is it that since > > they were > > >not BJP/RSS that you do not consider them a loss? > > >..................................................... > > > > > >On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 4:05 PM, wrote: > > > > > > > Without getting in to blame games, the need of the moment is the > > > > chairperson of UPA who is now proxy governor of the nation > > should have > > >good > > > > introspection of the events and see if her Home Minister who > > was once > > > > speaker, but discarded by the electorate, got into rajya sabha by > > >nomination > > > >  and then is the Home minister, is he capable of any action. > > A dummy like > > > > Prime minister, again diitto to the governance who has no > > incentive to > > > > perform as Prime minister being discard beaucrat, has been > >  of yester > > >years, > > > > can not make up his mind to take tough action for fear of > > votebank getting > > > > "hurt". By this inaction, in actual practise muslims are getting > > >branded as > > > > terrorists for the simple reason, they are not willing to be > > ready to > > > > identify, isolate and give up those who indulge in terror > > activities. It > > >is > > > > sad scene indeed. Wheras the hindus do not want violence and > > bhajrang dal > > > > gets no sympathy for its acts of violence, muslims by floating > > NGOs to > > > > defend the accused are helping the ter > > > > ror accused, sheltoring the accused for plain and simple lots > > of money in > > > > the trade of defending the terror. > > > > > > > > regards. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Priya Sen > > > > Date: Sunday, September 14, 2008 3:18 pm > > > > Subject: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi > > > > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > > > > > Dear All, > > > > > > > > > > India Gate, September 13th, 6:20 or so in the evening. I had > > > > > decided to walk > > > > > from Triveni Academy towards Khan Market, determined to buy a > > > > > bicycle and > > > > > thinking, it's getting dark and maybe I should wait until Monday > > > > > and I > > > > > shouldn't tell my mother about my biking plans and even > > though I > > > > > plan to > > > > > ride early mornings I need to ride it back home now and so > > on and > > > > > so forth. > > > > > India Gate was as India Gate is on a weekend evening. Walking > > > > > through it > > > > > made me think of other times I had been there, a few specific > > > > > memories and a > > > > > general sense of being in Delhi - of familiarity and ease from > > > > > having been > > > > > here for as long as I have, and of curiousity, the kind that > > comes> > > fromknowing that places are never the same - making > > mental notes > > > > > for no one > > > > > really about the Kwality Walls ice cream cart that had a board > > > > > saying 'Old > > > > > Vendor, India Gate since 1956', and the astrologer who sits in > > >the > > > > > sameplace always, and people with video cameras filming the gate > > > > > who always make > > > > > me wonder at what they think  when they play it back later. It > > > > > took 15 > > > > > minutes to cross over to Shah Jahan Road. Me, a couple of young > > > > > men, and a > > > > > papad seller who the policeman who was also waiting for the > > lights to > > > > > change, generally swore at, and I laughed at how swearing is so > > > > > integral to > > > > > ones day in Delhi. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Later I heard there were a couple of bombs that were > > defused, one > > > > > at Regal > > > > > Cinema and one at India Gate. I realized how many stories there > > > > > are now. Of > > > > > yesterday. Of where we were when.. . Of places we know so > > well. Of > > > > > our lives > > > > > up until the moment life changed for so many people in our city. > > > > > Of the > > > > > things that make our days what they are and will continue to. > > > > > Everyone will > > > > > have a story because everyone needs to claim something from > > > > > moments like > > > > > these. And everyone (in this city) must because this moment was > > > > > about Delhi. > > > > > It's happened before. Here, in other places, it will happen > > again> > > and again > > > > > and these will be 'the times according to people who live in > > >these > > > > > times'.And all we can really do is to embrace our lives a little > > > > > harder. > > > > > > > > > > The last time I mourned for this city, a little like this, > > is when > > > > > I watched > > > > > Nanglamachi being demolished and people gathering their > > lives into > > > > > bundlesand tempos and going wherever. The ruthlessness was > > > > > overwhelming. Not to > > > > > make analogies here. Although nothing wrong with analogies and > > > > > other things > > > > > that make us feel what we feel. No rules for that! Think, feel > > > > > whatever - > > > > > it's all part of the way we make sense of things on day 2. > > It was > > >like > > > > > watching the news right after the blasts happened, when the > > > > > reporters were > > > > > as bewildered as everyone else. Somehow in their floundering > > the news > > > > > channels were credible for a moment. Before the information > > > > > started coming > > > > > in and before they started interpreting it, that is. We know > > what> > > they do > > > > > and do well. Nothing is surprising, just a bit defeating and > > then> > > you think > > > > > why. Maybe we're defeated by the way we think, are told to > > think,> > > don'tthink. Maybe sometimes it has nothing to do with > > how we > > >live. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Delhi feels quiet today, but that's also from where I am. Also > > > > > it's Sunday. > > > > > It will probably not seem very different when I go out later > > in the > > > > > afternoon. But my sister called me this morning and was in tears > > > > > and saying > > > > > she couldn't sleep because of all this and is feeling restless > > > > > because lakhs > > > > > of people are going to be out on the streets today for Ganapati > > > > > visarjan in > > > > > Bombay. For her it's about Bombay as well, the place where she > > >has > > > > > her life. > > > > > When public places become vulnerable it means having to make > > > > > decisions about > > > > > things one doesn't necessarily think about. It's about > > >everything > > > > > outside of > > > > > us that is essential to how we construct our lives. It's about > > > > > everydaydecisions, small things, immediate concerns. About being > > > > > able to imagine, > > > > > and dream and lose ourselves in places. For a few days we > > will be > > > > > excruciatingly aware of how we move around the city. There > > will be > > > > > remorseand anxiety and conversation. We will share a common > > grief,> > > in degrees, and > > > > > it will bring us together more intensely. We will count and > > blame and > > > > > speculate. And then we will thankfully, move on. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Right now though, I would rather not. Not for today. I just want > > > > > to be with > > > > > what this city means to me. Aside from its symbols, its creation > > > > > of itself, > > > > > its skewed power dynamics and unbearable inequalities. A friend > > > > > and I are > > > > > convinced that "Delhi steps in when we really need something > > >to.". > > > > > Like the > > > > > wisdom of places. Not to get melodramatic! I'm glad I was here > > > > > when this > > > > > happened and not somewhere else. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Priya > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Priya Sen > > > > > Sarai-CSDS > > > > > 29, Rajpur Road, Civil Lines > > > > > Delhi - 110054 > > > > > priya at sarai.net > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with> > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > > > list > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list> > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >-- > > >Partha Dasgupta > > >+919811047132 > > > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________ > > >reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >Critiques & Collaborations > > >To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in > > >the subject header. > > >To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > >_________________________________________ > > >reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >Critiques & Collaborations > > >To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > >To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >List archive: > > > > > > > > >-- > > >Partha Dasgupta > > >+919811047132 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------ > > > > > >Message: 2 > > >Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 17:44:50 +0530 > > > From: Jeebesh > > >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions > > >To: Sarai Reader-list > > >Message-ID: > > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; format=flowed; > > delsp=yes> > > >Is it so difficult as you make it out to be? > > > > > >enclosed is the UN resolution in 1951. Surely many maps and documents > > >about border was submitted. It can be ascertained and worked out. > > > > > >warmly > > >jeebesh > > > > > >http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/kashun91.htm > > >Resolution 91 (1951) > > >Concerning the India-Pakistan question submitted by the > > >Representatives of > > >United Kingdom and United States and adopted by the Security > > Council on > > >March 30, 1951. > > >(Document No. S/2017/Rev. 1, dated the 30th March, 1951). > > > > > >THE SECURITY COUNCIL, > > >Having received and noted the report of Sir Owen Dixon, the United > > >Nations Representative for > > >India and Pakistan on his mission initiated by the Security Council > > >resolution 80 (1950) of March > > >14, 1950. > > > > > >Observing that the Governments of India and Pakistan have > > accepted the > > >provisions of the United > > >Nations Commission for India and Pakistan resolutions of 13 August, > > >1948, and 5 January, 1949, > > >and have re-affirmed their desire that the future of the State of > > >Jammu and Kashmir shall be decided > > >through the democratic method of a free and impartial plebiscite > > >conducted under the auspices of the > > >United Nations. > > > > > >Observing that on 27 October, 1950, the General Council of the "All > > >Jammu and Kashmir National > > >Conference" adopted a resolution recommending the convening of a > > >Constituent Assembly for the > > >purpose of determining the "future shape and affiliations of the > > State>of Jammu and Kashmir"; > > >observing further from statements of responsible authorities that > > >action is proposed to convene such > > >a Constituent Assembly and that the area from which such a > > Constituent>Assembly would be elected > > >is only a part of the whole territory of Jammu and Kashmir. > > > > > >Reminding the Governments and authorities concerned of the principle > > >embodied in its resolutions 47 > > >(1948) of 21 April 1948, 51(1948) of 3 June, 1948 and 80 (1950) > > of 14 > > >March, 1950 and the > > >United Nations Commission for India and Pakistan resolutions of 13 > > >August, 1948, and 5 January, > > >1949, that the final disposition of the State of Jammu and Kashmir > > >will be made in accordance with > > >the will of the people expressed through the democratic method of a > > >free and impartial plebiscite > > >conducted under the auspices of the United Nations. > > > > > >Affirming that the convening of a Constituent Assembly as recommended > > >by the General Council of > > >the "All Jammu and Kashmir National Conference" and any action that > > >Assembly might attempt to > > >take to determine the future shape and affiliation of the entire > > State>or any part thereof would not > > >constitute a disposition of the State in accordance with the above > > >principle. > > > > > >Declaring its belief that it is the duty of the Security Council in > > >carrying out its primary responsibility > > >for the maintenance of international peace and security to aid the > > >parties to reach an amicable > > >solution of the Kashmir dispute and that a prompt settlement of this > > >dispute is of vital importance to > > >the maintenance of international peace and security. > > > > > >Observing from Sir Owen Dixon's report that the main points of > > >difference preventing agreement > > >between the parties were: > > > > > >(a) The procedure for and the extent of demilitarisation of the State > > >preparatory to the holding > > >of a plebiscite, and > > > > > >(b) The degree of control over the exercise of the functions of > > >Government in the State > > >necessary to ensure a free and fair plebiscite. > > > > > >(1) Accepts, in compliance with his request, Sir Owen Dixon's > > >resignation and expresses its > > >gratitude to Sir Owen Dixon's resignation and expresses its gratitude > > >to Sir Owen for the great ability > > >and devotion with which he carried out his mission; > > > > > >(2) Decides to appoint a United Nations Representative for India and > > >Pakistan in succession to Sir > > >Owen Dixon; > > > > > >(3) Instructs the United Nations Representative to proceed to the > > sub- > > >continent and, after > > >consultation with the Governments of India and Pakistan, to > > effect the > > >demilitarisation of the State of > > >Jammu and Kashmir on the basis of the United Nations Commission for > > >India and Pakistan > > >resolutions of 13 August, 1948, and, 5 January, 1949; > > > > > >(4) Calls upon the parties to co-operate with the United Nations > > >Representative to the fullest degree > > >in effecting the demilitarisation of the State of Jammu and Kashmir; > > > > > >(5) Instructs the United Nations Representatives to report to the > > >Security Council within three > > >months from the date of his arrival on the sub-continent; if at the > > >time of this report, he has not > > >effected demilitarisation in accordance with paragraph three > > above, or > > >obtained the agreement of the > > >parties to a plan for effecting such demilitarisation, the United > > >Nations Representative shall report to > > >the Security Council those points of difference between the > > parties in > > >regard to the interpretation and > > >execution of the agreed resolutions of 13 August, 1948, and 5 > > January,>1949, which he considers > > >must be resolved to enable such demilitarisation to be carried out; > > > > > >(6) Calls upon the parties, in the event of their discussions > > with the > > >United Nations Representative > > >failing in his opinion to result in full agreement, to accept > > >arbitration upon all outstanding points of > > >difference reported by the United Nations representative in > > accordance>with paragraph five above. > > >Such arbitration to be carried 'out by an arbitrator, or a panel of > > >arbitrators, to be appointed by the > > >President of the International Court of Justice after consultation > > >with the parties; > > > > > >(7) Decides that the Military Observer Group shall continue to > > >supervise the cease-fire in the State; > > > > > >(8) Requests the Governments of India and Pakistan to ensure that > > >their cement regarding the > > >cease-fire shall continue to be faithfully observed and calls > > them to > > >take all possible measures to > > >ensure the creation and maintenance of an atmosphere favourable > > to the > > >promotion of further > > >negotiations and to refrain from any likely to prejudice a just and > > >peaceful settlement; > > > > > >(9) Requests the Secretary-General to provide the United Nations > > >Representative for India and > > >Pakistan with such services and facilities as may be necessary in > > >carrying out the terms of this > > >resolution. > > > > > >The Security Council voted on this Resolution on 30-3-51 with the > > >following result: > > >In favour: Brazil, China, Ecuador, France, Netherlands, Turkey, U.K. > > >and U.S.A. > > >Against: None > > >Abstaining: India, U.S.S.R. and Yugoslavia. > > > > > >On 16-Sep-08, at 4:50 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > > > > > Dear Jeebesh > > > > > > > > You are overstepping yourself. We are still on Point 1 of your > > > > "possible ways" arising from your "some friends were talking about > > > > different way of thinking about Kashmir." > > > > > > > > "Referendum" was not in the menu of "possible ways" you > > floated. Let > > > > us get back to your "Demilitarized Zone" > > > > > > > > You say that a "wide area" has to be De-militarized. That is a > > > > meaningless generality. Specify that "wide area" if you can. You > > > > will not be able to do it if you have not thought over the > > "possible> > ways" you have floated. Do some thinking first. > > > > > > > > You suggest a "popular suffrage" to mark the "border". Over what > > > > "area" do you propose that this "popular suffrage" will take > > place?> > In that "area" who will participate? > > > > > > > > Obviously the "suffrage" cannot take place specifically in any > > > > proposed "wide area" on "both sides of the border" which you seek > > > > to De-militarize because the very purpose of the "suffrage" is to > > > > demarcate precisely that "wide area". > > > > > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Jeebesh wrote: > > > > > > > > From: Jeebesh > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions > > > > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > > > > Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 4:14 PM > > > > > > > > Another Floater :) > > > > > > > > For a serious referendum to happen a very wide area has to be > > > > demilitarized on both side of the present border. There can be a > > > > popular suffrage to mark the border and hopefully something better > > > > than the present situation may emerge. > > > > > > > > But my floater was not so much about the real-politic of border > > > > making. It was about thinking a side ways to get out of this > > > > "bleeding" politics and use all the various available > > international> > institutions and instruments to arrive at some > > new arrangements. > > > > > > > > warmly > > > > Jeebesh > > > > > > > > > > > > On 16-Sep-08, at 3:38 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > > > > > >> Dear Jeebesh > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> The "Demilitarized Zone" is your proposal and not mine. You > > > > should > > > >> be the one to specify its borders. Unless, as is more than likely > > > >> and is apparent, you have done very little thinking over the idea > > > >> you have floated. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Kshmendra > > > >> > > > >> --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Jeebesh wrote: > > > >> > > > >> From: Jeebesh > > > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions > > > >> To: "Sarai Reader-list" > > > >> Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 1:15 PM > > > >> > > > >> On 15-Sep-08, at 11:33 PM, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> But I think a BD led UN peacekeeping force in Kashmir would > > not fly. > > > >> > > > >> Why not? :) It will be South Asia in a complex entangle. > > > >> > > > >> And Kshmendra, borders are always a contested lines. You could > > > >> suggest > > > >> what it could be. > > > >> > > > >> _________________________________________ > > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > >> subscribe in > > > >> the subject header. > > > >> To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > >> List archive: > > > >> > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in > > > > the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list> > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list> > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------ > > > > > >Message: 3 > > >Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 18:21:19 +0530 > > > From: Vivek Narayanan > > >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions > > >To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, sarai list > > >Message-ID: <48CFABC7.40008 at sarai.net> > > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed > > > > > >Kshemendra, > > > > > >I understand from your comments below that you think that any > > possible>"post-national" solution to the question of Kashmir is > > hogwash, dreamy, > > >silly, unthinkable-- in the same way that the idea of a nation-state > > >with a democratic polity was completely unthinkable a few hundred > > years>ago? After all, it is not the specifics of one plan or > > another that you > > >are objecting to, it is the very idea itself, correct? > > > > > >Fine-- but my question is, what is your solution? Do you think > > >violently assertive forcible Indian military occupation, objected > > to by > > >the majority of the Kashmiri population, with all kinds of ripple > > >effects including (possibly) the steadily increasing militancy and > > >radicalisation of the population, the increasing bitterness that > > reduces>the chances of reconcilliation and peace day by day, and only > > >increasingly so, should and can continue until kingdom come? Or > > do you > > >have any other ideas and possibilities in mind? > > > > > >I ask this as an earnest question, out of curiousity, not as a > > polemical>point. > > > > > >Vivek > > > > > >Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > > Dear Jeebesh > > > > > > > > You are overstepping yourself. We are still on Point 1 of > > your "possible ways" arising from your "some friends were talking > > about different way of thinking about Kashmir." > > > > > > > > "Referendum" was not in the menu of "possible ways" you > > floated. Let us get back to your "Demilitarized Zone" > > > > > > > > You say that a "wide area" has to be De-militarized. That is a > > meaningless generality. Specify that "wide area" if you can. You > > will not be able to do it if you have not thought over the > > "possible ways" you have floated. Do some thinking first. > > > > > > > > You suggest a "popular suffrage" to mark the "border". Over > > what "area" do you propose that this "popular suffrage" will take > > place? In that "area" who will participate? > > > > > > > > Obviously the "suffrage" cannot take place specifically in any > > proposed "wide area" on "both sides of the border" which you seek > > to De-militarize because the very purpose of the "suffrage" is to > > demarcate precisely that "wide area". > > > > > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Jeebesh wrote: > > > > > > > > From: Jeebesh > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions > > > > To: "Sarai Reader-list" > > > > Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 4:14 PM > > > > > > > > Another Floater :) > > > > > > > > For a serious referendum to happen a very wide area has to be > > > > demilitarized on both side of the present border. There can be a > > > > popular suffrage to mark the border and hopefully something better > > > > than the present situation may emerge. > > > > > > > > But my floater was not so much about the real-politic of border > > > > making. It was about thinking a side ways to get out of this > > > > "bleeding" politics and use all the various available > > international> > institutions and instruments to arrive at some > > new arrangements. > > > > > > > > warmly > > > > Jeebesh > > > > > > > > > > > > On 16-Sep-08, at 3:38 PM, Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> Dear Jeebesh > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> The "Demilitarized Zone" is your proposal and not mine. You > > > >> > > > > should > > > > > > > >> be the one to specify its borders. Unless, as is more than likely > > > >> and is apparent, you have done very little thinking over the idea > > > >> you have floated. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Kshmendra > > > >> > > > >> --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Jeebesh wrote: > > > >> > > > >> From: Jeebesh > > > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions > > > >> To: "Sarai Reader-list" > > > >> Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 1:15 PM > > > >> > > > >> On 15-Sep-08, at 11:33 PM, Naeem Mohaiemen wrote: > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>> But I think a BD led UN peacekeeping force in Kashmir would > > not fly. > > > >>> > > > >> Why not? :) It will be South Asia in a complex entangle. > > > >> > > > >> And Kshmendra, borders are always a contested lines. You > > could suggest > > > >> what it could be. > > > >> > > > >> _________________________________________ > > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > >> subscribe in > > > >> the subject header. > > > >> To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > >> List archive: > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe in > > > > the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list> > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list> > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------ > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >reader-list mailing list > > >reader-list at sarai.net > > >https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > > >End of reader-list Digest, Vol 62, Issue 90 > > >******************************************* > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > > From jha.srirang at gmail.com Wed Sep 17 18:32:23 2008 From: jha.srirang at gmail.com (srirang jha) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 18:32:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] First-person Account of Delhi Blast Message-ID: *First-person Account of Delhi Blast* Our Extended Family in Delhi By Shweta & Srirang Jha We do not have any kith and kin in Delhi. So we were always concerned about who would come to our help in case of any crisis. But all our apprehensions went wrong when we were hit by the bomb blast at Central Park on 13 September 2008. We reached Connaught Place around 5:30 PM that day. First we went to Shree Leathers showroom near Regal Cinema. It was crowded with frenzied weekend shoppers. There was no security check at the entrance. So both of us thought what if a bomb explodes in the showroom. This thought made us restless. So we hurriedly came out of the showroom. As our six year old daughter Khushi is very fond of strawberry ice-cream, we went to Mc Donald's to get a scoop for her. We ate burgers outside the restaurant. Then we moved towards the Central Park where Khushi loves to play. Instead of crossing the road from Palika Bazar to Central Park, we used the Metro Sub-way. We had walked merely a few metres inside the Central Park when we heard a loud sound. We thought, it may be a gun shot, which was actually the sound of the bomb blast at Barakhambha Road. As we turned behind to figure out what had happened, there was the second blast. We started running towards the other end of the Central Park. At the same time we were worried about a possible blast at the other end of the Central Park. Somehow, we reached the road and started shouting for help. Both of us were profusely bleeding. We tried to call police help line for help. But the gentleman just disconnected the phone after hearing about the bomb blast. As we wanted to reach RML Hospital at the earliest, we requested the passersby to arrange any vehicle. A police constable standing there managed to stop an auto rickshaw. Suddenly an Indica stopped there and a young man pulled us into his car saying it would be too late if we take the auto rickshaw. He dropped us at the hospital in half an hour despite heavy traffic jam. He also informed us that there was another blast in Gaffar Market. Knowing fully well, the imminent risk ahead, he decided to help us reach the hospital. We were in such a bad condition that we could not ask his name or say thanks to him. He dropped us at the Trauma Centre of RML Hospital and disappeared in the crowd. Had he not helped us, our condition would have worsened due to profuse bleeding. Inside the trauma centre, the scene was terrible. Many people were brought dead. Many others were severely hit. There was total chaos. Yet the doctors, nurses and other staff were working like soldiers and reaching out to all with first aid and, of course, a healing touch. So we felt a sigh of relief. Now we were assured that we have survived. We stayed in the trauma centre for around half an hour. There was immense pain and suffering. A senior doctor told us to take Khushi outside the trauma centre. When we told that both of us were injured, she told our daughter to sit on the stretcher. The doctor was worried about psychological impact our daughter might have after seeing suffering, pain and death. Anyway, soon we were shifted to the emergency ward. We could call only one of our colleagues, Ajay Chauhan before the cell phone traffic was jammed. He, in turn, informed Prof Alok Saklani, Director of Apeejay School of Management, where both of us teach. He reached the hospital in an hour. Prof Akshey Kumar, a senior colleague reached soon after we were shifted to emergency ward. Kunal Khurana, one of our students, saw us on the television and rushed to the hospital for our help. That was very touching. While we had expected our colleagues to arrive, Kunal's gesture was quite soul-stirring. He was there till midnight when we were discharged from the hospital. Our friend Shubhankar wanted to come to the emergency ward but the security personnel were not allowing anyone inside the premises of RML Hospital. We were discharded from the hospital in the midnight. While we returned home with Kunal, Ranjani took care of our daughter. On the second day, many of our colleagues came forward to help us. All our students visited us with bouquets and good wishes for early recovery. Even our plumber, washer-man, kabariwala, kiranawala and many others came forward to extend their good wishes. We started receiving calls from our old friends who had slipped out of touch. It was nice receiving calls from Ranvijay, Sanat, Chetnanad, Nasiha, Firoz, Jaevd and many others. Our neighbours were always there for help. So before our parents reached out to us, we got incredible support from our extended family in Delhi. The extended family all-embracing healing touch to many others on that fateful day. Hence so many lives could be saved. Probably that is the spirit of Delhi which attracts people from all over the country. -- Srirang K Jha, Ph D Assistant Professor, Apeejay School of Management Dwarka, Sector 8 New Delhi 110075 Ph. 011-32646005 Cell. 09958336918 From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Sep 17 19:56:43 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 19:56:43 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Ancient art treasures of Kashmir -The Disappearance Syndrome Message-ID: <6b79f1a70809170726j12d3a2f4k53c0f9aefeb1cc54@mail.gmail.com> *Ancient art treasures of Kashmir *The Disappearance Syndrome If reports emanating from sources in Srinagar have any truth in them, a systematic pilferage of ancient art objects has been going on ever since terrorism was unleashed in the unhappy valley. A report appearing in a leading national daily recently appears to confirm this. According to it, Rajputana Rifles handed over 32 pieces of priceless artefacts to the National Museum on June 21st, 1996. These were recovered from the house of one Ghulam Mohammad Lone residing in a colony near Shalimar Gardens during a cordon and search operation as he was trying to smuggle out the artefacts for the international market. These date back to the 6th to 15th century. The important sculptures include Gajalaxmi, Vishnuchaturanana, Swayambhu Lingas, Kumbheshwara etc. While these pieces of art were saved by a chance seizure by the security forces, there are hundreds which have disappeared over the years. What is intriguing is the silence maintained by the state custodians of art and culture over such losses.While the lackdaisical and even negligent attitude in preserving the art objects displayed by the government managed institutions like the Shri Pratap Museum, Center for Central Asian Studies Research and Publications Department is quite evident, the appalling indifference shown by the concerned officials cannot but give rise to apprehension of connivance. The reason is not difficult to understand - these objects are relics from Kashmir's pre- Islamic past. The official attitude in this matter can be illustrated by the state in which these objects have been kept in the museum and other places. Not many years ago, in 1984 to be precise, a delegation of important academics from the then USSR Republic of Tadjkistan came to Kashmir for a visit. Their itinerary included a visit to the Shri Pratap Museum at Lal Mandi, Srinagar. According to Captain S. K.Tikoo, who accompanied the delegation along with veteran journalist Sh. P.N. Jalali, some members of the delegation got interested in some statues displayed at the museum while they were being shown round and made some queries about them. The members obviously bore Muslim names. Much to their surprise, the then Director of the State Department of Museums and Archives, Fida M. Hassnain, started talking in an apologetic tone about such statutes being displayed at the Museum saying that display of such objects could not be helped even though it went against the writ of Islam which forbids idol worship. The leader of the delegation, Mr. Rasulov, a prominent historian and himself a Muslim, was taken aback. "It took us more than a decade in restoring the damage done to our ancient monuments by the Germans, but we did it as a matter of priority to maintain our links with the past. And you are apologetic about these ancient objects of art when you ought to be proud of them", he burst out, admonishing the official. But such admonishment could hardly be expected to make any change in the attitude of the Muslim officialdom in Kashmir, which has not only been reluctant to come to terms with Kashmir's pre-Islamic past, Hindu or Buddhist, but has deliberately tried to create the impression that such a past never existed. Perhaps that is one of the reasons why masterpieces of Kashmir's glorious artistic traditions have disappeared from time to time from where they are supposed to be preserved while the art pieces mentioned above were luckily saved. The disappearance syndrome is now quite old. As far back as 1995, a gigantic terracotta pendant belonging to the necklace of a huge image of Boddhisttva suddenly disappeared from its shelf in the S.P.Museum, Srinagar. It was one of the finest examples of Buddhist baroque in Kashmir which came to light when excavations of the ancient Buddhist monastery of Shad-Arhat- Vana (modern Harvan) were first undertaken by Daya Ram Sahni, and later by Ram Chandra Kak in l919. The attention of the well known archaeologist and art critic, Charles Fabri, was attracted towards this 'Gem of Kashmir', in 1933. The pendant, measuring 20 inches in height and 14 inches in width, was oval in shape and intricately beautiful reflecting on the exquisite craftsmanship of ancient Kashmiri jewellery. Immediately after its discovery it was kept for display in the S. P. Museum in 1925 where it attracted the notice of archaeologists, historians and scholars from the whole world till it disappeared. What is more amusing is that the Museum authorities first gave out that the teracotta masterpiece had been removed to a safer place within the Museum itself. People were made to believe that it had been broken to pieces due to the carelessness of some Museum official. The pieces were, however, not restored to their original shape despite the presence of a qualified museuologist at the Museum. And then came the stunning news - the pendant had been smuggled out of the Museum ! And such games continued to be played even afterwards. Surely, money can not be the sole motive behind such acts of disappearance of invaluable art objects. A more sinister design appears to be at work - to deplete the rich treasures of Hindu and Buddhist art in Kashmir. It will not be totally surprising if one morning we wake up to find that Kashmir has been swept clean of most of the relics that would remind one of the glories of its pre- Islamic past! Source : NRKI From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Wed Sep 17 20:38:23 2008 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 20:38:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions In-Reply-To: <3AE2ACAC-B773-4654-987B-BED43AA564F1@sarai.net> Message-ID: Absolutely, who said any of this wasn't possible and this is precisely what a borderless South Asia hopes to achieve. And I was merely sharing the idea that ideas are good in themselves, but even radical, path-breaking ideas ought to be launched from a historical context to make sense. If, that is, you want to transform them into reality. Otherwise they remain just that: good ideas: thought As for thanatopolitics, the discussions, sadly, merely reflect the condition of our times from the great wars of the 20thc that have determined the course of events, or indeed the smaller wars of attrition of the 21st c. Perhaps it would be hoping too much to hope that people can think in ways that can transcend this stuff. Best sj > From: Jeebesh > Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 16:02:05 +0530 > To: Sarai Reader-list > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions > > Dear Sonia, It is immensely possible to have a state without standing army, > with agreements with bordering State on non-invasion. Many regions of the > world will need this in near future. Karen people in Burma could for sure > benefit from this. To workout borders of this state is not within my > purview. It is something that will be decided in a complex process of > negotiation anyway. What I was sharing was a concern to think how to not keep > re-in- forcing ideas and positions that keep the "bleeding politics" alive. > Lot of writing in this list is deeply immersed in thanatopolitics and need > to think about it. warmly jeebesh On 17-Sep-08, at 2:59 PM, S. Jabbar > wrote: > Dear Kshemendra, Jeebesh, Vivek, Sanjay and everyone else interested > > in > Kashmir, > > I have been away this past month, but have looked at the > Sarai List > from > time to time. I find it interesting that the discussion > on Kashmir > has > turned to 'post-national' solutions and that Jeebesh > volunteered the > Dixon > Plan as one way of arriving at a solution. But if > you study the plan > carefully along with the maps you will realise that there > are/were > very > valid reasons for why it was rejected in the 1950's > itself. > > Since then there have been various attempts to rephrase and re- > > package the > Dixon Plan into something more palatable, but because the basis > in > all the > subsequent proposals was a division of the state on religious > lines > it was > rejected by India. > > What I find interesting about the > discussion so far is that most > people seem > content to dismiss the > nation-state as inherently obdurate, bent on > making > the lives of > Kashmiris, among others, miserable. Some thought and > some work > has been > done on Kashmir in the last sixty years, and I think not > only would > it > be grossly unfair to the people who have attempted to think about > and do > > something on Kashmir if one did not acknowledge it, but it would > also be > > reinventing a very flat wheel if one didn't examine past mistakes. > > About a > month ago in a discussion with Shuddha I had put forward a > proposal > for > a South Asian Union that has been under discussion for several > years > > with friends from the region. This would include Afghanistan, > Pakistan, > Sri > Lanka, India, Nepal, Bangladesh with the possibility of Tibet and > > Burma as > observer states. > > No takers on the list? Well, FYI by 2015 the > governments of these > countries > will have in place the South Asian Free > Trade Agreement (SAFTA). > This push > is obviously coming from the trade > fraternity, but where does this > leave > civil society? Why are we not > responding creatively to something > which could > potentially either become > a trade agreement which would benefit only > big > business, or something > that could mean real freedom for the nearly 2 > billion > people in this > region? > > >> From: Vivek Narayanan >> Organization: > Sarai >> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 19:55:02 +0530 >> To: > , sarai list >> Subject: Re: > [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions >> >> I did not say you wrote that > Kshmendra, I said that I was given to > understand >> it that way from what > you were saying. Hence, the question > mark in my note >> below. Perhaps you > are being a little too intelligently > vague. In any case, >> if you do think > there are possibilities here beyond > the nation state, >> including beyond > occupation by and assertion and > domination of the Indian >> nation state, > I'd be very glad to hear of them. > > Kshmendra Kaul wrote: >> >> >> Dear > Vivek >> >> >> >> Either I did not know what I was writing or you chose not >> > understand. >> Either way that is unfortunate. You would not want that >> > happening with >> you. Would you? >> >> >> >> Where in this particular > thread >> have I mentioned or suggested that : >> >> >> >> """" any > possible >> "post-national" solution to the question of Kashmir >> is > hogwash, >> dreamy, >> silly, unthinkable""""" >> >> >> >> Once you answer > that, I could (perhaps >> tomorrow) address rest of what >> you have > written. >> >> >> >> >> Kshmendra >> >> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open >> discussion > list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To >> subscribe: > send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in >> the > subject header. > To unsubscribe: >> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: >> > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> __________________________ > _______________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To > unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List > archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From rajeshr at csds.in Wed Sep 17 20:49:53 2008 From: rajeshr at csds.in (Rajesh Ramakrishnan) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 20:49:53 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] IEG panel discussion: The Emergence of Cultural Studies in India Message-ID: You are invited to a panel discussion on Monday, September 29, 2008 to be held in the VKRV Rao room in IEG between 2: 30 - 5: 30 pm. Comprising of distinguished scholars, this panel will reflect on *The Emergence of Cultural Studies in India*. This event is part of the ongoing series of discussions on disciplinary formations in the Indian social sciences. It forms a sequel to the earlier discussion held in IEG on *The Possibility of a Contemporary History : The Politics of Knowledge and post-1947 Disciplinary Formation in the Social Sciences* (EPW report April 18, 2008.) Please do come and contribute to the discussion, your participation*will be much appreciated *! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- *Panel discussion * *On the Emergence of Cultural Studies as a Field in **India** * ________________________________________________________________* * * (**conceptualised by Veena Naregal, IEG & Prathama Bannerjee, CSDS) ** *** The proposed panel seeks to understand the emergence of cultural studies as a knowledge-field in contemporary India. In this panel we hope to explore the history of cultural studies on its own terms and territory, and not as a 'soft' discipline, somewhat displaced from mainstream disciplinary formations of the social sciences. Importantly, we hope to examine the place of cultural studies within the shifting contexts through which ideas of culture and cultural policy get formulated in post-1947 India, while simultaneously interrogating its relation, as an inter-disciplinary field, with its 'parent' disciplines within the Indian social sciences. ** *Speakers : * Prof. Krishna Kumar, NCERT Dr. G. Arunima, *JNU* Prof. P.K. Dutta, *DU* Dr. Soumya Chowdhury, *JNU* *Discussant: TBC. * ** The questions before the panel willl include : A. *State/Development/ Education* · instrumentalisation of culture for developmental goals · the subsumption of the culture question within a centralised vision of relations between the nation and its region presumed by developmental planning. · the consequent relegation of culture as a minor part of education policy · the political hesitation after Independence to reopen the culture question beyond its inscription within officially sanctioned discourses on cultural authenticity and the sanctity of tradition *B. Literary Studies and the Vernaculars * * * · questions of statehood and language and how that reconfigures the space of vernacular literature · the hegemony of the canonical and formalistic model of English literary studies over regional language departments · the question of English and the nation's language policy · the role of the Sahitya and state akademies in managing regional literatures as passive recipients of minimalist doses of state patronage · implications of the above for the ways in which the contemporary and the regional get figured within mainstream social sciences * * *C. Inter-disciplinarity / Culture / Marginality * · post – 1947 disciplinary trajectories, the politics of knowledge and articulations of marginality/culture · the breaking away of gender studies as an autonomous/ interdisciplinary field in the 1970s · Indian cultural studies as a departure from gender studies : the Hyderabad moment and after · articulations of inter-disciplinarity : cultural studies within institutional trajectories at CSDS/ CSCS/ CSSS · the cultural turn and the structural crises / impasse within the Indian social sciences ** ** *D. Performance Studies, post-1947 Cultural History : Insights in to the** * * **Contemporary* · India's 'culture' in anthropology/history/ policy discourse /literary studies · Performance studies, cultural studies : possible dialogues · cultural arenas and the contemporary : the conversation with mainstream social science ------------------------------------------- -- Dr. Veena Naregal Reviews Editor, Contributions to Indian Sociology & Associate Professor Institute of Economic Growth University Enclave Delhi 110007, INDIA Tel.: 91-11-27667101 Fax: 91-11-27667410 email:veena at iegindia.org veena.naregal From nazoshmasi at googlemail.com Wed Sep 17 21:24:20 2008 From: nazoshmasi at googlemail.com (Nazneen Anand Shamsi) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 16:54:20 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Why Kashmir Erupts? Message-ID: <169ff67c0809170854l4f0df4c2n39afb8894228748b@mail.gmail.com> Dear all, I came across this rather interesting piece on Kashmir, written by A.G Noorani. I say -interesting- because despite his acute analysis, despite his display of archival wealth, and despite his good intentions, Mr.Noorani, refuses to acknowledge the slaughter of Kashmiri Pandits by Muslims and their eventual flight. May be this was just an oversight or maybe he did it purpose but nevertheless I hope all those who have not had the opportunity to read it will benefit from it. Best Nazneen Anand Shamsi ------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Frontline Volume 25 - Issue 19 :: Sep. 13-26, 2008 INDIA'S NATIONAL MAGAZINE from the publishers of THE HINDU Printer Friendly Page Send this Article to a Friend ESSAY WHY JAMMU ERUPTS A.G. NOORANI Is New Delhi about to repeat Nehru's blunder of 1953? CHANNI ANAND/AP Protesters in Jammu throw stones at policemen on August 26. THE Jammu province of the State of Jammu and Kashmir has a regional identity with a rich past and a composite culture. It has produced scholars, artists, poets and writers of high distinction. After 1947, the Sangh Parivar foisted a communal identity on it precisely at a time when Sheikh Muhammad Abdullah, the foremost leader of Jammu and Kashmir State with a Muslim majority, moved for its accession to India. He was attracted by its secular ideals symbolised by Mahatma Gandhi and Jawaharlal Nehru. Gandhi said at a prayer meeting on November 28, 1947: "You see Sheikh Abdullah with me… [who] although a pucka Muslim, has won the hearts of both [Hindus and Sikhs] by making them forget that there is any difference between the three [communities]…. Even though in Jammu recently the Muslims were killed by the Hindus and the Sikhs, he went to Jammu and invited the evil doers to forget the past…." (Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi; volume 90, page 123). There were Muslims in the valley who were opposed to the accession; there were forces in Jammu who resented the transfer of power from a "Hindu" Maharaja to a "Muslim" leader. The Maharaja's son, Karan Singh, resented that "Dogra rule had in effect been replaced by Kashmiri rule". In October 1987, Jammu erupted in fury when Farooq Abdullah, at Rajiv Gandhi's behest, ended the Darbar Move by which the government functioned alternately from Srinagar and Jammu every six months. It was not communal but regional self-assertion. But, in August 2008, it was not Jammu but the communal forces there that took to the streets under a false regional garb. The issue of allotment of land to the Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board (SASB), a legacy of the former Governor S.K. Sinha's communal agenda, was badly handled by Chief Minister Ghulam Nabi Azad for his own ends in a manner that offended Muslim and Hindu feelings. But while in the valley the people led the leaders and the campaign was spontaneous, in Jammu the Rashtriya Swayamsewak Sangh (RSS) acted after preparation and in pursuit of its resolution of June 30, 2002, for the break-up of the State into three parts. New Delhi's brutal clamp-down in the valley on August 24, following mammoth and unarmed rallies, is in glaring contrast to its kid-glove treatment of Jammu. It is a replay of what happened in 1953 when Nehru confided to his friend B.C. Roy, Chief Minister of West Bengal, on June 29: "It is difficult to speak openly about the injurious results of this movement. It has made the Kashmir problem far more difficult than it ever was. Before this movement was started, I had little doubt in my mind that the final decision about Kashmir would be in our favour, however long it might take. But this movement has upset all my calculations and weakened our position in Kashmir terribly. I am for the moment talking about the Kashmir Valley only. As you know, the people in the Valley are over ninety per cent Muslim. The reaction of the Jammu Praja Parishad movement on them has been very great. They have become frightened of the communal elements in Jammu and in India and their previous wish to be attached to India has weakened. Indeed, at the moment, all the hostile forces against us are dominant in Kashmir…. The whole difficulty has been about the Valley of Kashmir and we are on the point of losing it because of the Praja Parishad movement. "Psychologically we have lost it and it would be difficult to get back to the older position. You will appreciate how it has distressed me to see the hard work of several years washed away by this movement. In the ultimate analysis, we gain Kashmir if we gain the goodwill of the people there" (emphasis added, throughout; Selected Works of Jawaharlal Nehru; volume 22, pages 203-205). In 2002, the RSS admitted that in 1952 it had "agitated in the name of Praja Parishad". Nehru tried to "control" the situation by arresting Abdullah on August 9, 1953, and inflicted a wound that has still not healed. Is New Delhi about to repeat that mistake in 2008? Three factors must be borne in mind – the preparations behind the Jammu disorders, the RSS' trifurcation agenda, and its roots. Dharmendra Rataul of The Tribune reported from Madhopur as early as August 5 that "hundreds" of Shiv Sainiks and Bajrang Dal men, led by Dinesh Kumar Babbu, a Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) Member of the Legislative Assembly, had "blocked the NH-1A linking J&K with the rest of the country. Punjab BJP leaders including two State Ministers camped 10 km away." He cited the details. Azad remarked on August 4: "There have been four delegations of the BJP going there in the past one month and they call it spontaneous. The BJP is backing the Sangharsh Samiti and is funding it" (Indian Express, August 5). Anil Anand reported in DNA (August 11) that the RSS was "tightening its hold over the BJP" to implement its agenda and had selected an RSS loyalist, Leela Karan Sharma, as chairman of the Amarnath Sangharsh Samiti. Anuradha Bhasin Jamwal, executive editor of Kashmir Times, published from Jammu, wrote a detailed report in Communalism Combat (July-August 2008): "That the protests in Jammu were not marked by spontaneity but by a steady build-up is evident from the fact that in the first few days of the agitation only a few protesters, supporters of the Sangh Parivar, were out on the streets. Gradually, the numbers started swelling into thousands" to join in "the violent protests". Television channels were not curbed, as they were in Srinagar from August 24, when they "worked to complement mass mobilisation campaigns by the Bajrang Dal, the VHP and the RSS". No praise can be too high for Anuradha or her father, Ved Bhasin, the paper's founder, for standing by the values of secularism and honest journalism throughout these difficult years. RSS agenda The RSS' agenda was mooted almost from the time of the State's accession to India. Its prime mover was none other than Maharaja Hari Singh, as Nehru wrote to Vallabhbhai Patel on April 17, 1949, after reading an intelligence report from Kashmir: "In this report, among other things, a reference was made to a growing Hindu agitation in Jammu province for what is called a zonal plebiscite. This idea is based on the belief that a plebiscite for the whole of Kashmir is bound to be lost and, therefore, let us save Jammu at least. You will perhaps remember that some proposal of this kind was put forward by the Maharaja some months back. It seems to me that this kind of propaganda is very harmful, indeed, for us. Whatever may happen in the future, I do not think Jammu province is running away from us. If we want Jammu province by itself and are prepared to make a present of the rest of the State to Pakistan, I have no doubt we could clinch the issue in a few days. The prize we are fighting for is the valley of Kashmir. "This propaganda for a zonal plebiscite is going on in Jammu, in Delhi and elsewhere. It is carried on by what is known as the Jammu Praja Parishad. Our intelligence officer reported that this Praja Parishad is financed by the Maharaja. Further, that the large sums collected for the Dharmarth Fund, which are controlled by the Maharaja, are being spent in propaganda for him" (Sardar Patel's Correspondence 1945-50; volume 1, page 262). It had no effect on Patel because he had ranged himself for Hari Singh and against Abdullah. Only three months after Jammu and Kashmir's accession to India, Hari Singh threatened secession in a letter to Patel dated January 31, 1948: "Sometimes I feel that I should withdraw the accession that I have made to the Indian Union. The Union only provisionally accepted the accession…" (ibid, page 167). He was, of course, not reprimanded by Patel. General K.M. Cariappa reported to Nehru that "the Maharaja's brother-in-law was openly carrying on a campaign against Sheikh Abdullah and his government and issuing pamphlets of this kind". Nehru added that in an intelligence report "mention was made of the Yuvraj [Karan Singh] getting mixed up with this business" (ibid, page 262). To Patel, Nehru "after all… is also a Hindu and... a Kashmiri Hindu", "a patriot", and Kashmir was "a Hindu State situated in Muslim surroundings" (ibid, pages 3 and 4). Shyama Prasad Mookerjee resigned from Nehru's Cabinet in 1950 and set up the Jana Sangh, with the RSS' support, on October 21, 1951. Nehru called it the "illegitimate child of the RSS" (The Hindu; January 6, 1952). Mookerjee was in search of a plank. Kashmir came in handy. He asked Nehru in a letter on January 9, 1950, that if a plebiscite were held "what will be the fate of Jammu in case the majority of the people, consisting of Muslims, vote against India?" He dilated on "the peculiar characteristics of different parts" of the State. Karan Singh revived his father's plans. On November 14, 1965, he confirmed to Neville Maxwell of The Times (London) his ideas on trifurcation. Kuldip Nayar, who headed the United News of India, reported his views at length – "a unilingual Kashmiri-speaking State"; Jammu's merger with Himachal Pradesh; and Ladakh to become a Union Territory. Jammu and Kashmir was an "administrative monstrosity". There was no "sanctity behind" it. His family had brought the two parts together through conquest and he as successor would say that "the sooner the present arrangement was ended the better it would be." (He had written differently to Nehru earlier.) B.K. Nehru became Governor of Jammu and Kashmir on February 26, 1981. "The only real briefing that I got was from Tiger (Karan Singh) who put the State of Jammu and Kashmir in correct perspective for me. He explained that the State was a wholly artificial creation, its five separate regions being joined together by the historical accident that Raja Gulab Singh had conquered all the territories over which his father Maharaja Hari Singh was ruling at the time of Independence and Partition. Those five different entities had nothing in common with each other…. In our part of the State, there were three clear divisions – Jammu, which was Hindu, Kashmir, which was Sunni Muslim and Ladakh, one part of which was Buddhist and the other Shia Muslim. Because of the lack of commonality between these three divisions, the sooner they were separated the better it would be for the future" (Nice Guys Finish Second; 1997; page 589). Karan Singh's statement of August 5, 2008, refers to the recent upheaval as "a symptom of a deeper problem including the relationship between the three regions of the State still with India" – a strange formulation – "Kashmir, Jammu and Ladakh. The fundamental problem needs to be looked into carefully and a national consensus arrived at, but that can be done only after the next round of national and State elections." He is the only one outside the BJP to call for Governor N.N. Vohra's ouster. As Union Home Minister, L.K. Advani set the ball rolling calculatedly at Leh on June 7, 2000. He knew he was on charged territory. The Ladakh Buddhist Association (LBA) had for years threatened to use violence. A social boycott of Muslims was on for months. The ritual qualification "within the four corners of the Constitution" is less relevant than the fact that the Home Minister countenanced ("can discuss") trifurcation at all and did so in the context of the memo containing the demand which the LBA gave Prime Minister A.B. Vajpayee that day. Idea of trifurcation THE HINDU PHOTO LIBRARY Maharaja Hari Singh, whose last days as the ruler of Jammu and Kashmir were marred by a massacre of Muslims. Constitutionally, the Centre has no right or power in this matter. Article 3 empowers Parliament "by law" to "diminish the area of any State". In relation to Kashmir, however, no such Bill can even "be introduced in Parliament without the consent of the Legislature of that State". The Centre has no business to offer to "consider" a demand whose acceptance is the sole prerogative of Kashmir. Advani could not have been unmindful of the chain reaction his remarks would set off. The LBA's memo said: "We believe a lasting solution lies in trifurcation of the State." The Times of India's correspondent summed up the reaction in a report from Jammu published on June 14, 2000: "Trifurcation of Jammu and Kashmir, an idea forwarded by organisations and individuals – either as a demand or suggestion in the public debate, set in motion by the Centre – has been given new respectability by Union Home Minister Advani's remark… during the Sindhu Darshan festival demanding trifurcation of the State or Union Territory status for Leh." Buddhist protests led to the scaling down of the tamasha. On June 30, 2002, the RSS' All India Workers' Conclave at Kurukshetra adopted a resolution that asserted: "The people of Jammu think that the solution of their problems lies in the separate statehood for Jammu region." It also supported "the demand for U.T. [Union Territory] status for Ladakh region". This is the agenda that is being promoted in Jammu now. Jammu will be split evenly. Three of its six districts, now broken up into 10, have a Muslim majority - Poonch (91.92 per cent), Rajouri (60.23 per cent) and Doda (57.92 per cent). Two tehsils in Udhampur, Gul Arnas and Gulab Garh, have a Muslim majority. Farooq Abdullah realistically warned that these areas would not live with Jammu; the massacres would be worse than those of 1947; and "India will be left with two and a half districts while the so-called Greater Kashmir will go on a platter to Pakistan eventually" (Greater Kashmir; October 3 and December 11, 2000). Mirwaiz Maulvi Umer Farooq also said "if the Dogras of Jammu's two and a half districts want to secede from the rest of the State… we won't oppose it either" (Indian Express; August 10, 2008). Massacre in Jammu Farooq Abdullah's reference to the 1947 massacres has a poignant ring. His father had overlooked the ethnic cleansing of Muslims of Jammu, under Maharaja Hari Singh's auspices, to forge a Union with India on the basis of the ideology of secularism. As Gandhi said on November 27, 1947, "This has not been fully reported in the newspapers" (Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi; volume 90, page 115). It was, and still is, little known in India. It is now being recalled in Jammu. Here are the facts. Gandhi said on December 25, 1947: "The Hindus and Sikhs of Jammu and those who had gone there from outside killed Muslims there. The Maharaja of Kashmir is responsible for what is happening there…. Muslim women have been dishonoured" (ibid, page 298). In 1947, Muslims were in a 61 per cent majority in the Jammu province. Horace Alexander wrote in the Spectator (January 16, 1948) that the killings had "the tacit consent of State authority" and put the figure at 200,000. On August 10, 1948, The Times (London) published a report by "A Special Correspondent", an Indian Civil Service official who had served in the State. He wrote: "2,37,000 Muslims were systematically exterminated – unless they escaped to Pakistan along the border – by all the forces of the Dogra State, headed by the Maharaja in person and aided by Hindus and Sikhs. This happened in October 1947, five days before the first Pathan invasion and nine days before the Maharaja's accession to India." India was, therefore, not responsible one bit. Hari Singh was, personally. Between 1941 and 1961, the Muslim population of Jammu fell from 61 per cent to 38 per cent. In 1971 Hari Singh's complicity was fully exposed by the publication of Nehru's letter of December 30, 1947, and the Sheikh's letter of October 7, 1948, both addressed to Patel, significantly (Sardar Patel's Correspondence; volume 1, 1971, pages 135 and 237). The Sheikh wrote: "There was enacted in every village and town through which he [Hari Singh] passed an orgy of arson and loot and murder of Muslims. In Jammu the killing of Muslims all over the province continued unabated for weeks under his very nose." That orgy is being recalled in Jammu now. In an article entitled "Being Muslim in Jammu", Zafar Chaudhary writes: "There was hardly any family in the region which escaped" it. Those "events permanently changed the way the Muslims of Jammu would live or think" (Economic & Political Weekly; August 23, 2008). Some decided to make peace with the BJP agitators. The BJP's State president, Ashok Khajuria, said at a press conference on July 26: "Muslims vacate your houses... I am warning you… else, Jammu people are ready to throw you out." >From 1947 to 1953, these very forces undermined Sheikh Abdullah's standing in Kashmir. In 2008, they have strengthened its demand for azadi. It is, of course, absurd to say that land for the SASB will affect demography. But people overreact when they are told that they are not in a majority in their own State. Witness: Assam. In Srinagar I was told by the 15 Corps Commander in 1995, while working on an article for Frontline, that Kashmiri Muslims were not in a majority in the valley itself. On August 16, 2008, S.K. Sinha said the same thing in the Manekshaw Memorial Lecture. What is it that drives persons in government to say such things? Imagine the impact of a similar remark in Mumbai, for instance. The land and the law Now for the land issue. In 1989, the number of pilgrims to the Amarnath cave was only 12,000. In 2007, it was 400,000. Is there any place of pilgrimage anywhere in India where land is sought to be allotted or transferred in any form for the pilgrimage? Whether by leave and licence or by lease? In law, citizens have a right to move along any road, subject to considerations of security and the like. When throngs gather, the organisers arrange facilities. Land need not be allotted for that. It has not been, anywhere at any time. Neither at the Kumbh Mela, where far greater numbers gather, nor at Gangotri and Goumukh in Uttarakhand, where, on May 1, 2008, the BJP government limited the number of pilgrims to 150 a day to protect the environment. Experts have testified to the environmental degradation already wrought on the route to the Amarnath cave. Yet, S.K. Sinha wanted to extend the duration of the yatra and the numbers who visit the cave. The Tirumala Tirupati Devasthanams (TTD) efficiently maintains 12 temples and their sub-shrines in the Tirumala-Tirupati area. The TTD once owned 600 villages, but they were acquired by the State under the Zamindari Abolition Act, 1950. The average income of the TTD is a whopping Rs.800 crore. The TTD, established by the TTD Act, 1932, is now governed by Chapter 14 of the Andhra Pradesh Charitable and Hindu Religious Institutions and Endowments Act, 1987. A Board of Trustees is constituted by the State government, which also appoints the chief executive and other officials. The Tirumala hills comprise seven peaks. The temple of Sri Venkateswara is on the seventh peak. Section 114 of the Act empowers the State government to notify "the limits of the Tirumala Hills area for the purpose of civic administration". It will be deemed to be a village under the Gram Panchayats Act, 1964, and the Public Health Act, 1939. Sengupta report Following a blizzard in August 1996, the Government of India asked Nitish K. Sengupta, IAS (retired), and member of the Trinamool Congress, to inquire into the tragedy in which 243 people died on the Amarnath Yatra. Had his report, the only definitive study of the actual state of things, not been flouted by S.K. Sinha, no disputes would have arisen. There are two routes to the Amarnath cave. The "traditional route" is from Srinagar – lately from Jammu – to Pahalgam onwards. "The limited carrying capacity of the 32 km track provides strong grounds for controlling the number of pilgrims… there should not be more than 9,000 or 10,000 pilgrims" on the last sector. The other route is from Sonamarg to Baltal onwards, "an alternative or supplementary route", which, Ghulam Nabi Azad said on August 4, "is taken barely by 10 per cent of the pilgrims". Sengupta recommended that the Tourism Department "should be the administrative department responsible for conducting the yatra" plus a Board, with the Chief Minister at its head, to "undertake primary responsibility of looking into all matters relating to Amarnath Yatra". At one place he calls it a "coordination committee" (page 25), at another (page 49) a Board "to coordinate efforts of the various agencies". It would "lay down overall policy measures" and exercise supervision". It is the government that wields executive power. The yatra should start on July 1 and end on August 15 – 45 days – with an overall ceiling of 100,000 pilgrims for the annual yatra and only 10,000 pilgrims a day between Chandanwari and the cave. He was most emphatic on both the duration and the ceiling on numbers (page 54). S.K. Sinha flouted both. In an article in Asian Age (August 14), Sengupta opines that "as long as only 20,000 pilgrims are there they would be able to take shelter in existing huts and be safe". He considered the Baltal route as an alternative. "Almost 5 km of this route from Sangam on the way to Baltal is extremely difficult and risky. There cannot be any question of permitting large number of people to travel on this track." It is "extremely slippery". The Army holds that it is not an "immediate alternative possibility". Why then did he recommend development of this route? If the numbers are restricted, as he himself said, the Pahalgam route would suffice. Yet it is on the Baltal route that the controversial land was allotted. He did not recommend any acquisition of land. The Jammu and Kashmir Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board Act, 2000, set up a Board for "upgradation of facilities" for the pilgrims with the Governor as its head. The Board is empowered (Section 16 d) "to undertake developmental activities concerning the area of the Shrine and its surroundings" – and no more. S.K. Sinha became Governor in 2003. On July 2, 2004, a petition was filed in the High Court at Jammu, not in Kashmir where the Amarnath cave is situated, against the State government for just three reliefs – it must not interfere with the SASB's decision at its meeting in New Delhi on March 17, 2004; it must give up registration of yatris nationwide and quotawise; and it must not authorise a private helicopter service. No demand for land was made at that meeting at all. Only suitable accommodation for yatris and shelters – without allotment of land. The SASB supported the petition, "it is interesting to note", Justice Permode Kohli remarked in his judgment on April 15, 2005. He went far beyond the petition to grant reliefs it did not seek and counsel it did not ask for. He ordered extension of the yatra to two months. "The State should not object to it." The land issue surfaced in this judgment as an order to "permit user of the land by the Board" to upgrade the infrastructure along the route. The judge found the Baltal route "narrow and dangerous…." but then found "considerable improvement" on both routes – on evidence neither side had provided. On appeal, a Division Bench comprising Justices Y.P. Nargotra and V.K. Shanji gave interim directions on May 17, 2005, "without prejudice to the rights of the parties". No judgment was given. In regard to land, the word "user" was not used; it was allotment. "The land to be allotted by the Board would be only for the purposes of user." This is allotment, not permission for user. Allotment implies transfer of legal interest in the land, however limited. It is not sought in any of the pilgrimages in India or anywhere else. Local bodies do not "allot" land to bus companies. They permit them to erect stops and shelters on the route. Meanwhile, on May 29, 2005, the Secretary, Forest Department, Sonali Kumar, wife of the SASB's chief executive officer Arun Kumar, issued orders, at his request, for diversion of land to the SASB. His and the Governor's offensive remarks on reactions to the eventual order of allotment on May 26, 2008, need not be recalled here (see the writer's article "Why Kashmir erupts"; Frontline; August 1). Like the Central Forest (Conservation) Act, 1980, the State's Act of 1997 also lays down mandatory curbs, even for permits that forest land "may be used for any non-forest purpose". A Cabinet resolution based on the advice of an advisory committee is mandatory. The Secretary, Forest, overlooked this as did the three judges of the High Court. Chief Minister Mufti Mohammed Sayeed rescinded the order and stalled on S.K. Sinha's demands. The High Court stayed the rescission. In a letter of January 1, 2008, S.K. Sinha contended that the Governor is "sovereign ex-officio holder of the power… who acts on his own personal satisfaction and not on the aid and advice of the council of ministers… the member [of the Legislative Council] may be explained that he does not enjoy the powers to question the decisions of the body" (Greater Kashmir; June 12, 2008). This was insolent nonsense. As a statutory body, the SASB is amenable to the Court's orders and also to the Assembly's probes. S.K. Sinha even proposed to set up an independent Amarnath Development Authority on the stretch from Sonamarg to Pahalgam. Proceedings under the Act were taken only in 2007. The Law Department, the Advocate General and Law Minister Muzaffar Hussein Beig considered the applicability to Jammu and Kashmir of the Supreme Court's interim directions in a case on April 27, 2007. They were not. But on November 23, 2007, the Court gave its judgment in the case (T.N. Godavarman vs. Union of India (2008) 2 -SCC 222). Its observations bind Jammu and Kashmir. They were not considered before the Cabinet took the decision on May 20 or before the government passed the order on May 26. Both are bad in law. These facts are cited in the Forest Department's memorandum to the Cabinet for its decision dated February 26, 2008. It is gravely flawed and misrepresents the Advocate General and the Law Minister. It is noteworthy that the Supreme Court did not clear the project in that case although it would have helped the poor tribal people in that area. It made important observations on balancing development with environment concerns. In the Amarnath case, the land sought to be given is on the alternative, and not sole, route to the cave which is admittedly dangerous. Only a political agenda can explain such sheer obstinacy. The Forest Department's order of May 2008 went beyond "user" (paragraph 9). Arun Kumar said it was permanent and the yatra would be for the whole year (Rising Kashmir; June 17, 2008). The State government has now agreed to make the land available to the SASB for three months, reportedly. It wants to give "user rights"; the SASB wants "exclusive rights" (The Hindu; August 25). On August 30 the Sangharsh Samiti rejected the government's proposal on the grounds that it was not given "exclusive" rights. Within hours, the government caved in and accepted the Samiti's diktat. It will "set aside for the use by SASB exclusively the land in Baltal" and falsely characterise this as land traditionally under use for the use of the yatra. The accord is worse than the order, which never used the word "exclusive". The duration of use will be for the yatra and also from time to time as the SASB requires – a faint hint of user throughout the year. There is no provision for return of land. The accord is one-sided and void: it violates Section 2 of the Act of 1997. The 39.88 hectares of forest land were to be given "at Baltal and Domail", not on the main Pahalgam route. The Sengupta Report was to be abandoned - on the duration of the yatra and on the number of yatris. The yatra becomes a show of political strength, not a holy pilgrimage. The SASB's spokesman, Rajendra Mishra, said on August 18 that the numbers would increase. The accord if concluded will be void in law. The entire process has been irregular, most shockingly. It is bad enough that the Cabinet did not consider the Supreme Court's ruling. What is shocking is that the Forest Department's memo contained grave factual misrepresentations regarding Advocate General Altaf Husain Naik and Law Minister Muzaffar Hussain Beig. On August 26, Naik said in detail that the file in this case was "never" referred to him. His observations related to a different case of diversion of forest land. In equal detail, on August 27, Beig informed me that his views also quoted in the memo related to a different case. Clearly the Forest Department in its zeal pressed into service in the Amarnath case opinions by two lawyers given in an altogether different case and misrepresented them in effect. This vitiates the entire process. No order for diversion can be made now, even under an accord, unless the entire procedure under the Act of 1997 is undergone afresh. Section 2 of the Act mandatorily requires advice of the advisory committee which must be given afresh - plus "a resolution of the Council of Ministers", which will come into being only after the next elections. Mailed fist for valley REUTERS Trucks stranded on a road blocked by protesters in Jammu on August 26. The mailed fist is reserved for the valley. The few days of mammoth but unarmed rallies revealed nothing about popular sentiment that was not known before. S.K. Sinha himself said: "We have been able to control militancy in Kashmir but the mindset behind the separatist movement is intact" (Business Standard; August 16). Precisely. Militancy can be crushed. Alienation cannot be. It deepens with repression. It cannot be eradicated by the crackdown on August 24 following the visit of M.K. Narayanan, National Security Adviser. S.K. Sinha could not have behaved as he did or even survived in office but for the Centre's backing, mainly, but not exclusively, by Home Minister Shivraj Patil. Even before the crackdown ordered by the Centre, the disparity in treatment was glaring. It has become worse since, because some in New Delhi sympathise with the agitators in Jammu and have been consistently and notoriously hostile to the ones in Srinagar. It is the same old story of "them" and "us". In Jammu, as Amitab Sinha remarked, "It is significant that despite loss of public property and defying of curfew and prohibitory orders by thousands of people, authorities have restrained themselves from making preventive arrests" (Indian Express; August 6). There were attacks on Muslims; the Gujjars' huts were torched. Muzamil Jaleel cited specific cases in Srinagar of the Central Reserve Police Force targeting ambulances ferrying the injured and, "in one instance, they opened fire at the entrance to a hospital's casualty ward" (Indian Express; August 15). Kashmir Times editorially censured police firing "inside the emergency and casualty wards of the SMHS hospital" (August 13). It is the very peaceful character of the Hurriyat's movement that unnerved New Delhi. "The change is that there is no militancy this time," Mirwaiz Umer Farooq said on August 16. "New Delhi cannot dismiss the demand of Kashmiris as militancy. Now, it has to address the issue [of Kashmir's status]." On August 23, a day before the crackdown, the United Jehad Council headed by Syed Salahuddin "unanimously decided to silence the guns in Kashmir" (Shujaat Bhukhari; The Hindu; August 24). The New York Times' Somini Sengupta reported from Srinagar: "The main city hospital was filled with Kashmiris shot and wounded by Indian security forces" (International Herald Tribune; August 23). On August 24 came the crackdown. "This is the strictest curfew in Kashmir in the past 20 years" (Indian Express; August 27). Srinagar went without newspapers from August 24. Mediamen and even doctors with passes were beaten up. Whatever for? To soften the Hurriyat leaders to secure acceptance of the new land deal? And, indeed, what follows next? When Nehru arrested Sheikh Abdullah on August 9, 1953, he imagined that with repression over time Kashmir would submit. It did not. It will not now, either. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh must assert himself and, with his liberal instincts, ask himself two questions: What will be the consequences of appeasement in Jammu? And what will be the consequences of the repression in Kashmir? He can arrest the drift to disaster even now. How can elections be held in Jammu and Kashmir in this situation? Burke's speech in the House of Commons on March 22, 1775, on conciliation with rebellious America has stood the test of time: "The use of force alone is but temporary. It may subdue for a moment; but it does not remove the necessity of subduing again; and a nation is not governed which is perpetually to be conquered… conciliation failing, force remains, but force failing, no further hope of reconciliation is left." From pawan.durani at gmail.com Wed Sep 17 23:25:16 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 23:25:16 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Why Kashmir Erupts? In-Reply-To: <169ff67c0809170854l4f0df4c2n39afb8894228748b@mail.gmail.com> References: <169ff67c0809170854l4f0df4c2n39afb8894228748b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70809171055u7d8aad13vc3965b6eb780cbd3@mail.gmail.com> Yeah ....great mind think alike. This analysis is just like that what the Mike Tyson [ boxer ] did on Kashmir. Tyson has as much knowledge about Kashmir as Mr. Noorani has. Pawan On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 9:24 PM, Nazneen Anand Shamsi < nazoshmasi at googlemail.com> wrote: > Dear all, > > I came across this rather interesting piece on Kashmir, written by A.G > Noorani. I say -interesting- because despite his acute analysis, > despite his display of archival wealth, and despite his good > intentions, Mr.Noorani, refuses to acknowledge the slaughter of > Kashmiri Pandits by Muslims and their eventual flight. > > May be this was just an oversight or maybe he did it purpose but > nevertheless I hope all those who have not had the opportunity to read > it will benefit from it. > > Best > > Nazneen Anand Shamsi > ------------------------------ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Frontline > Volume 25 - Issue 19 :: Sep. 13-26, 2008 > INDIA'S NATIONAL MAGAZINE > from the publishers of THE HINDU > > > > Printer Friendly Page Send this Article to a Friend > > ESSAY > > WHY JAMMU ERUPTS > > A.G. NOORANI > > Is New Delhi about to repeat Nehru's blunder of 1953? > > CHANNI ANAND/AP > > Protesters in Jammu throw stones at policemen on August 26. > > THE Jammu province of the State of Jammu and Kashmir has a regional > identity with a rich past and a composite culture. It has produced > scholars, artists, poets and writers of high distinction. After 1947, > the Sangh Parivar foisted a communal identity on it precisely at a > time when Sheikh Muhammad Abdullah, the foremost leader of Jammu and > Kashmir State with a Muslim majority, moved for its accession to > India. He was attracted by its secular ideals symbolised by Mahatma > Gandhi and Jawaharlal Nehru. Gandhi said at a prayer meeting on > November 28, 1947: "You see Sheikh Abdullah with me… [who] although a > pucka Muslim, has won the hearts of both [Hindus and Sikhs] by making > them forget that there is any difference between the three > [communities]…. Even though in Jammu recently the Muslims were killed > by the Hindus and the Sikhs, he went to Jammu and invited the evil > doers to forget the past…." (Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi; volume > 90, page 123). > > There were Muslims in the valley who were opposed to the accession; > there were forces in Jammu who resented the transfer of power from a > "Hindu" Maharaja to a "Muslim" leader. The Maharaja's son, Karan > Singh, resented that "Dogra rule had in effect been replaced by > Kashmiri rule". > > In October 1987, Jammu erupted in fury when Farooq Abdullah, at Rajiv > Gandhi's behest, ended the Darbar Move by which the government > functioned alternately from Srinagar and Jammu every six months. It > was not communal but regional self-assertion. But, in August 2008, it > was not Jammu but the communal forces there that took to the streets > under a false regional garb. The issue of allotment of land to the > Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board (SASB), a legacy of the former Governor > S.K. Sinha's communal agenda, was badly handled by Chief Minister > Ghulam Nabi Azad for his own ends in a manner that offended Muslim and > Hindu feelings. > > But while in the valley the people led the leaders and the campaign > was spontaneous, in Jammu the Rashtriya Swayamsewak Sangh (RSS) acted > after preparation and in pursuit of its resolution of June 30, 2002, > for the break-up of the State into three parts. New Delhi's brutal > clamp-down in the valley on August 24, following mammoth and unarmed > rallies, is in glaring contrast to its kid-glove treatment of Jammu. > It is a replay of what happened in 1953 when Nehru confided to his > friend B.C. Roy, Chief Minister of West Bengal, on June 29: "It is > difficult to speak openly about the injurious results of this > movement. It has made the Kashmir problem far more difficult than it > ever was. Before this movement was started, I had little doubt in my > mind that the final decision about Kashmir would be in our favour, > however long it might take. But this movement has upset all my > calculations and weakened our position in Kashmir terribly. I am for > the moment talking about the Kashmir Valley only. As you know, the > people in the Valley are over ninety per cent Muslim. The reaction of > the Jammu Praja Parishad movement on them has been very great. They > have become frightened of the communal elements in Jammu and in India > and their previous wish to be attached to India has weakened. Indeed, > at the moment, all the hostile forces against us are dominant in > Kashmir…. The whole difficulty has been about the Valley of Kashmir > and we are on the point of losing it because of the Praja Parishad > movement. > > "Psychologically we have lost it and it would be difficult to get back > to the older position. You will appreciate how it has distressed me to > see the hard work of several years washed away by this movement. In > the ultimate analysis, we gain Kashmir if we gain the goodwill of the > people there" (emphasis added, throughout; Selected Works of > Jawaharlal Nehru; volume 22, pages 203-205). In 2002, the RSS admitted > that in 1952 it had "agitated in the name of Praja Parishad". Nehru > tried to "control" the situation by arresting Abdullah on August 9, > 1953, and inflicted a wound that has still not healed. Is New Delhi > about to repeat that mistake in 2008? > > Three factors must be borne in mind – the preparations behind the > Jammu disorders, the RSS' trifurcation agenda, and its roots. > Dharmendra Rataul of The Tribune reported from Madhopur as early as > August 5 that "hundreds" of Shiv Sainiks and Bajrang Dal men, led by > Dinesh Kumar Babbu, a Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) Member of the > Legislative Assembly, had "blocked the NH-1A linking J&K with the rest > of the country. Punjab BJP leaders including two State Ministers > camped 10 km away." He cited the details. Azad remarked on August 4: > "There have been four delegations of the BJP going there in the past > one month and they call it spontaneous. The BJP is backing the > Sangharsh Samiti and is funding it" (Indian Express, August 5). Anil > Anand reported in DNA (August 11) that the RSS was "tightening its > hold over the BJP" to implement its agenda and had selected an RSS > loyalist, Leela Karan Sharma, as chairman of the Amarnath Sangharsh > Samiti. > > Anuradha Bhasin Jamwal, executive editor of Kashmir Times, published > from Jammu, wrote a detailed report in Communalism Combat (July-August > 2008): "That the protests in Jammu were not marked by spontaneity but > by a steady build-up is evident from the fact that in the first few > days of the agitation only a few protesters, supporters of the Sangh > Parivar, were out on the streets. Gradually, the numbers started > swelling into thousands" to join in "the violent protests". Television > channels were not curbed, as they were in Srinagar from August 24, > when they "worked to complement mass mobilisation campaigns by the > Bajrang Dal, the VHP and the RSS". No praise can be too high for > Anuradha or her father, Ved Bhasin, the paper's founder, for standing > by the values of secularism and honest journalism throughout these > difficult years. > RSS agenda > > The RSS' agenda was mooted almost from the time of the State's > accession to India. Its prime mover was none other than Maharaja Hari > Singh, as Nehru wrote to Vallabhbhai Patel on April 17, 1949, after > reading an intelligence report from Kashmir: "In this report, among > other things, a reference was made to a growing Hindu agitation in > Jammu province for what is called a zonal plebiscite. This idea is > based on the belief that a plebiscite for the whole of Kashmir is > bound to be lost and, therefore, let us save Jammu at least. You will > perhaps remember that some proposal of this kind was put forward by > the Maharaja some months back. It seems to me that this kind of > propaganda is very harmful, indeed, for us. Whatever may happen in the > future, I do not think Jammu province is running away from us. If we > want Jammu province by itself and are prepared to make a present of > the rest of the State to Pakistan, I have no doubt we could clinch the > issue in a few days. The prize we are fighting for is the valley of > Kashmir. > > "This propaganda for a zonal plebiscite is going on in Jammu, in Delhi > and elsewhere. It is carried on by what is known as the Jammu Praja > Parishad. Our intelligence officer reported that this Praja Parishad > is financed by the Maharaja. Further, that the large sums collected > for the Dharmarth Fund, which are controlled by the Maharaja, are > being spent in propaganda for him" (Sardar Patel's Correspondence > 1945-50; volume 1, page 262). > > It had no effect on Patel because he had ranged himself for Hari Singh > and against Abdullah. Only three months after Jammu and Kashmir's > accession to India, Hari Singh threatened secession in a letter to > Patel dated January 31, 1948: "Sometimes I feel that I should withdraw > the accession that I have made to the Indian Union. The Union only > provisionally accepted the accession…" (ibid, page 167). He was, of > course, not reprimanded by Patel. > > General K.M. Cariappa reported to Nehru that "the Maharaja's > brother-in-law was openly carrying on a campaign against Sheikh > Abdullah and his government and issuing pamphlets of this kind". Nehru > added that in an intelligence report "mention was made of the Yuvraj > [Karan Singh] getting mixed up with this business" (ibid, page 262). > > To Patel, Nehru "after all… is also a Hindu and... a Kashmiri Hindu", > "a patriot", and Kashmir was "a Hindu State situated in Muslim > surroundings" (ibid, pages 3 and 4). > > Shyama Prasad Mookerjee resigned from Nehru's Cabinet in 1950 and set > up the Jana Sangh, with the RSS' support, on October 21, 1951. Nehru > called it the "illegitimate child of the RSS" (The Hindu; January 6, > 1952). Mookerjee was in search of a plank. Kashmir came in handy. He > asked Nehru in a letter on January 9, 1950, that if a plebiscite were > held "what will be the fate of Jammu in case the majority of the > people, consisting of Muslims, vote against India?" He dilated on "the > peculiar characteristics of different parts" of the State. > > Karan Singh revived his father's plans. On November 14, 1965, he > confirmed to Neville Maxwell of The Times (London) his ideas on > trifurcation. Kuldip Nayar, who headed the United News of India, > reported his views at length – "a unilingual Kashmiri-speaking State"; > Jammu's merger with Himachal Pradesh; and Ladakh to become a Union > Territory. Jammu and Kashmir was an "administrative monstrosity". > There was no "sanctity behind" it. His family had brought the two > parts together through conquest and he as successor would say that > "the sooner the present arrangement was ended the better it would be." > (He had written differently to Nehru earlier.) > > B.K. Nehru became Governor of Jammu and Kashmir on February 26, 1981. > "The only real briefing that I got was from Tiger (Karan Singh) who > put the State of Jammu and Kashmir in correct perspective for me. He > explained that the State was a wholly artificial creation, its five > separate regions being joined together by the historical accident that > Raja Gulab Singh had conquered all the territories over which his > father Maharaja Hari Singh was ruling at the time of Independence and > Partition. Those five different entities had nothing in common with > each other…. In our part of the State, there were three clear > divisions – Jammu, which was Hindu, Kashmir, which was Sunni Muslim > and Ladakh, one part of which was Buddhist and the other Shia Muslim. > Because of the lack of commonality between these three divisions, the > sooner they were separated the better it would be for the future" > (Nice Guys Finish Second; 1997; page 589). > > Karan Singh's statement of August 5, 2008, refers to the recent > upheaval as "a symptom of a deeper problem including the relationship > between the three regions of the State still with India" – a strange > formulation – "Kashmir, Jammu and Ladakh. The fundamental problem > needs to be looked into carefully and a national consensus arrived at, > but that can be done only after the next round of national and State > elections." He is the only one outside the BJP to call for Governor > N.N. Vohra's ouster. > > As Union Home Minister, L.K. Advani set the ball rolling calculatedly > at Leh on June 7, 2000. He knew he was on charged territory. The > Ladakh Buddhist Association (LBA) had for years threatened to use > violence. A social boycott of Muslims was on for months. The ritual > qualification "within the four corners of the Constitution" is less > relevant than the fact that the Home Minister countenanced ("can > discuss") trifurcation at all and did so in the context of the memo > containing the demand which the LBA gave Prime Minister A.B. Vajpayee > that day. > Idea of trifurcation > > THE HINDU PHOTO LIBRARY > > Maharaja Hari Singh, whose last days as the ruler of Jammu and Kashmir > were marred by a massacre of Muslims. > > Constitutionally, the Centre has no right or power in this matter. > Article 3 empowers Parliament "by law" to "diminish the area of any > State". In relation to Kashmir, however, no such Bill can even "be > introduced in Parliament without the consent of the Legislature of > that State". The Centre has no business to offer to "consider" a > demand whose acceptance is the sole prerogative of Kashmir. Advani > could not have been unmindful of the chain reaction his remarks would > set off. The LBA's memo said: "We believe a lasting solution lies in > trifurcation of the State." The Times of India's correspondent summed > up the reaction in a report from Jammu published on June 14, 2000: > "Trifurcation of Jammu and Kashmir, an idea forwarded by organisations > and individuals – either as a demand or suggestion in the public > debate, set in motion by the Centre – has been given new > respectability by Union Home Minister Advani's remark… during the > Sindhu Darshan festival demanding trifurcation of the State or Union > Territory status for Leh." Buddhist protests led to the scaling down > of the tamasha. > > On June 30, 2002, the RSS' All India Workers' Conclave at Kurukshetra > adopted a resolution that asserted: "The people of Jammu think that > the solution of their problems lies in the separate statehood for > Jammu region." It also supported "the demand for U.T. [Union > Territory] status for Ladakh region". This is the agenda that is being > promoted in Jammu now. > > Jammu will be split evenly. Three of its six districts, now broken up > into 10, have a Muslim majority - Poonch (91.92 per cent), Rajouri > (60.23 per cent) and Doda (57.92 per cent). Two tehsils in Udhampur, > Gul Arnas and Gulab Garh, have a Muslim majority. Farooq Abdullah > realistically warned that these areas would not live with Jammu; the > massacres would be worse than those of 1947; and "India will be left > with two and a half districts while the so-called Greater Kashmir will > go on a platter to Pakistan eventually" (Greater Kashmir; October 3 > and December 11, 2000). Mirwaiz Maulvi Umer Farooq also said "if the > Dogras of Jammu's two and a half districts want to secede from the > rest of the State… we won't oppose it either" (Indian Express; August > 10, 2008). > Massacre in Jammu > > Farooq Abdullah's reference to the 1947 massacres has a poignant ring. > His father had overlooked the ethnic cleansing of Muslims of Jammu, > under Maharaja Hari Singh's auspices, to forge a Union with India on > the basis of the ideology of secularism. As Gandhi said on November > 27, 1947, "This has not been fully reported in the newspapers" > (Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi; volume 90, page 115). It was, and > still is, little known in India. It is now being recalled in Jammu. > Here are the facts. Gandhi said on December 25, 1947: "The Hindus and > Sikhs of Jammu and those who had gone there from outside killed > Muslims there. The Maharaja of Kashmir is responsible for what is > happening there…. Muslim women have been dishonoured" (ibid, page > 298). > > In 1947, Muslims were in a 61 per cent majority in the Jammu province. > Horace Alexander wrote in the Spectator (January 16, 1948) that the > killings had "the tacit consent of State authority" and put the figure > at 200,000. On August 10, 1948, The Times (London) published a report > by "A Special Correspondent", an Indian Civil Service official who had > served in the State. He wrote: "2,37,000 Muslims were systematically > exterminated – unless they escaped to Pakistan along the border – by > all the forces of the Dogra State, headed by the Maharaja in person > and aided by Hindus and Sikhs. This happened in October 1947, five > days before the first Pathan invasion and nine days before the > Maharaja's accession to India." India was, therefore, not responsible > one bit. Hari Singh was, personally. Between 1941 and 1961, the Muslim > population of Jammu fell from 61 per cent to 38 per cent. > > In 1971 Hari Singh's complicity was fully exposed by the publication > of Nehru's letter of December 30, 1947, and the Sheikh's letter of > October 7, 1948, both addressed to Patel, significantly (Sardar > Patel's Correspondence; volume 1, 1971, pages 135 and 237). > > The Sheikh wrote: "There was enacted in every village and town through > which he [Hari Singh] passed an orgy of arson and loot and murder of > Muslims. In Jammu the killing of Muslims all over the province > continued unabated for weeks under his very nose." > > That orgy is being recalled in Jammu now. In an article entitled > "Being Muslim in Jammu", Zafar Chaudhary writes: "There was hardly any > family in the region which escaped" it. Those "events permanently > changed the way the Muslims of Jammu would live or think" (Economic & > Political Weekly; August 23, 2008). Some decided to make peace with > the BJP agitators. The BJP's State president, Ashok Khajuria, said at > a press conference on July 26: "Muslims vacate your houses... I am > warning you… else, Jammu people are ready to throw you out." > > From 1947 to 1953, these very forces undermined Sheikh Abdullah's > standing in Kashmir. In 2008, they have strengthened its demand for > azadi. It is, of course, absurd to say that land for the SASB will > affect demography. But people overreact when they are told that they > are not in a majority in their own State. Witness: Assam. In Srinagar > I was told by the 15 Corps Commander in 1995, while working on an > article for Frontline, that Kashmiri Muslims were not in a majority in > the valley itself. On August 16, 2008, S.K. Sinha said the same thing > in the Manekshaw Memorial Lecture. What is it that drives persons in > government to say such things? Imagine the impact of a similar remark > in Mumbai, for instance. > The land and the law > > Now for the land issue. In 1989, the number of pilgrims to the > Amarnath cave was only 12,000. In 2007, it was 400,000. Is there any > place of pilgrimage anywhere in India where land is sought to be > allotted or transferred in any form for the pilgrimage? Whether by > leave and licence or by lease? In law, citizens have a right to move > along any road, subject to considerations of security and the like. > When throngs gather, the organisers arrange facilities. Land need not > be allotted for that. It has not been, anywhere at any time. Neither > at the Kumbh Mela, where far greater numbers gather, nor at Gangotri > and Goumukh in Uttarakhand, where, on May 1, 2008, the BJP government > limited the number of pilgrims to 150 a day to protect the > environment. Experts have testified to the environmental degradation > already wrought on the route to the Amarnath cave. Yet, S.K. Sinha > wanted to extend the duration of the yatra and the numbers who visit > the cave. > > The Tirumala Tirupati Devasthanams (TTD) efficiently maintains 12 > temples and their sub-shrines in the Tirumala-Tirupati area. The TTD > once owned 600 villages, but they were acquired by the State under the > Zamindari Abolition Act, 1950. The average income of the TTD is a > whopping Rs.800 crore. The TTD, established by the TTD Act, 1932, is > now governed by Chapter 14 of the Andhra Pradesh Charitable and Hindu > Religious Institutions and Endowments Act, 1987. A Board of Trustees > is constituted by the State government, which also appoints the chief > executive and other officials. The Tirumala hills comprise seven > peaks. The temple of Sri Venkateswara is on the seventh peak. Section > 114 of the Act empowers the State government to notify "the limits of > the Tirumala Hills area for the purpose of civic administration". It > will be deemed to be a village under the Gram Panchayats Act, 1964, > and the Public Health Act, 1939. > Sengupta report > > > Following a blizzard in August 1996, the Government of India asked > Nitish K. Sengupta, IAS (retired), and member of the Trinamool > Congress, to inquire into the tragedy in which 243 people died on the > Amarnath Yatra. Had his report, the only definitive study of the > actual state of things, not been flouted by S.K. Sinha, no disputes > would have arisen. There are two routes to the Amarnath cave. The > "traditional route" is from Srinagar – lately from Jammu – to Pahalgam > onwards. "The limited carrying capacity of the 32 km track provides > strong grounds for controlling the number of pilgrims… there should > not be more than 9,000 or 10,000 pilgrims" on the last sector. The > other route is from Sonamarg to Baltal onwards, "an alternative or > supplementary route", which, Ghulam Nabi Azad said on August 4, "is > taken barely by 10 per cent of the pilgrims". > > Sengupta recommended that the Tourism Department "should be the > administrative department responsible for conducting the yatra" plus a > Board, with the Chief Minister at its head, to "undertake primary > responsibility of looking into all matters relating to Amarnath > Yatra". At one place he calls it a "coordination committee" (page 25), > at another (page 49) a Board "to coordinate efforts of the various > agencies". It would "lay down overall policy measures" and exercise > supervision". It is the government that wields executive power. > > The yatra should start on July 1 and end on August 15 – 45 days – with > an overall ceiling of 100,000 pilgrims for the annual yatra and only > 10,000 pilgrims a day between Chandanwari and the cave. He was most > emphatic on both the duration and the ceiling on numbers (page 54). > S.K. Sinha flouted both. > > In an article in Asian Age (August 14), Sengupta opines that "as long > as only 20,000 pilgrims are there they would be able to take shelter > in existing huts and be safe". > > He considered the Baltal route as an alternative. "Almost 5 km of this > route from Sangam on the way to Baltal is extremely difficult and > risky. There cannot be any question of permitting large number of > people to travel on this track." It is "extremely slippery". The Army > holds that it is not an "immediate alternative possibility". Why then > did he recommend development of this route? If the numbers are > restricted, as he himself said, the Pahalgam route would suffice. Yet > it is on the Baltal route that the controversial land was allotted. > > He did not recommend any acquisition of land. The Jammu and Kashmir > Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board Act, 2000, set up a Board for > "upgradation of facilities" for the pilgrims with the Governor as its > head. The Board is empowered (Section 16 d) "to undertake > developmental activities concerning the area of the Shrine and its > surroundings" – and no more. > > S.K. Sinha became Governor in 2003. On July 2, 2004, a petition was > filed in the High Court at Jammu, not in Kashmir where the Amarnath > cave is situated, against the State government for just three reliefs > – it must not interfere with the SASB's decision at its meeting in New > Delhi on March 17, 2004; it must give up registration of yatris > nationwide and quotawise; and it must not authorise a private > helicopter service. No demand for land was made at that meeting at > all. Only suitable accommodation for yatris and shelters – without > allotment of land. The SASB supported the petition, "it is interesting > to note", Justice Permode Kohli remarked in his judgment on April 15, > 2005. He went far beyond the petition to grant reliefs it did not seek > and counsel it did not ask for. He ordered extension of the yatra to > two months. "The State should not object to it." > > The land issue surfaced in this judgment as an order to "permit user > of the land by the Board" to upgrade the infrastructure along the > route. The judge found the Baltal route "narrow and dangerous…." but > then found "considerable improvement" on both routes – on evidence > neither side had provided. > > On appeal, a Division Bench comprising Justices Y.P. Nargotra and V.K. > Shanji gave interim directions on May 17, 2005, "without prejudice to > the rights of the parties". No judgment was given. In regard to land, > the word "user" was not used; it was allotment. "The land to be > allotted by the Board would be only for the purposes of user." This is > allotment, not permission for user. Allotment implies transfer of > legal interest in the land, however limited. It is not sought in any > of the pilgrimages in India or anywhere else. Local bodies do not > "allot" land to bus companies. They permit them to erect stops and > shelters on the route. > > Meanwhile, on May 29, 2005, the Secretary, Forest Department, Sonali > Kumar, wife of the SASB's chief executive officer Arun Kumar, issued > orders, at his request, for diversion of land to the SASB. His and the > Governor's offensive remarks on reactions to the eventual order of > allotment on May 26, 2008, need not be recalled here (see the writer's > article "Why Kashmir erupts"; Frontline; August 1). Like the Central > Forest (Conservation) Act, 1980, the State's Act of 1997 also lays > down mandatory curbs, even for permits that forest land "may be used > for any non-forest purpose". A Cabinet resolution based on the advice > of an advisory committee is mandatory. > > The Secretary, Forest, overlooked this as did the three judges of the > High Court. Chief Minister Mufti Mohammed Sayeed rescinded the order > and stalled on S.K. Sinha's demands. The High Court stayed the > rescission. > > In a letter of January 1, 2008, S.K. Sinha contended that the Governor > is "sovereign ex-officio holder of the power… who acts on his own > personal satisfaction and not on the aid and advice of the council of > ministers… the member [of the Legislative Council] may be explained > that he does not enjoy the powers to question the decisions of the > body" (Greater Kashmir; June 12, 2008). This was insolent nonsense. As > a statutory body, the SASB is amenable to the Court's orders and also > to the Assembly's probes. S.K. Sinha even proposed to set up an > independent Amarnath Development Authority on the stretch from > Sonamarg to Pahalgam. > > Proceedings under the Act were taken only in 2007. The Law Department, > the Advocate General and Law Minister Muzaffar Hussein Beig considered > the applicability to Jammu and Kashmir of the Supreme Court's interim > directions in a case on April 27, 2007. They were not. But on November > 23, 2007, the Court gave its judgment in the case (T.N. Godavarman vs. > Union of India (2008) 2 -SCC 222). Its observations bind Jammu and > Kashmir. They were not considered before the Cabinet took the decision > on May 20 or before the government passed the order on May 26. Both > are bad in law. These facts are cited in the Forest Department's > memorandum to the Cabinet for its decision dated February 26, 2008. It > is gravely flawed and misrepresents the Advocate General and the Law > Minister. > > It is noteworthy that the Supreme Court did not clear the project in > that case although it would have helped the poor tribal people in that > area. It made important observations on balancing development with > environment concerns. In the Amarnath case, the land sought to be > given is on the alternative, and not sole, route to the cave which is > admittedly dangerous. Only a political agenda can explain such sheer > obstinacy. > > The Forest Department's order of May 2008 went beyond "user" > (paragraph 9). Arun Kumar said it was permanent and the yatra would be > for the whole year (Rising Kashmir; June 17, 2008). The State > government has now agreed to make the land available to the SASB for > three months, reportedly. It wants to give "user rights"; the SASB > wants "exclusive rights" (The Hindu; August 25). On August 30 the > Sangharsh Samiti rejected the government's proposal on the grounds > that it was not given "exclusive" rights. Within hours, the government > caved in and accepted the Samiti's diktat. It will "set aside for the > use by SASB exclusively the land in Baltal" and falsely characterise > this as land traditionally under use for the use of the yatra. The > accord is worse than the order, which never used the word "exclusive". > The duration of use will be for the yatra and also from time to time > as the SASB requires – a faint hint of user throughout the year. There > is no provision for return of land. The accord is one-sided and void: > it violates Section 2 of the Act of 1997. > > The 39.88 hectares of forest land were to be given "at Baltal and > Domail", not on the main Pahalgam route. The Sengupta Report was to be > abandoned - on the duration of the yatra and on the number of yatris. > The yatra becomes a show of political strength, not a holy pilgrimage. > The SASB's spokesman, Rajendra Mishra, said on August 18 that the > numbers would increase. The accord if concluded will be void in law. > The entire process has been irregular, most shockingly. > > It is bad enough that the Cabinet did not consider the Supreme Court's > ruling. What is shocking is that the Forest Department's memo > contained grave factual misrepresentations regarding Advocate General > Altaf Husain Naik and Law Minister Muzaffar Hussain Beig. On August > 26, Naik said in detail that the file in this case was "never" > referred to him. His observations related to a different case of > diversion of forest land. In equal detail, on August 27, Beig informed > me that his views also quoted in the memo related to a different case. > Clearly the Forest Department in its zeal pressed into service in the > Amarnath case opinions by two lawyers given in an altogether different > case and misrepresented them in effect. This vitiates the entire > process. > > No order for diversion can be made now, even under an accord, unless > the entire procedure under the Act of 1997 is undergone afresh. > Section 2 of the Act mandatorily requires advice of the advisory > committee which must be given afresh - plus "a resolution of the > Council of Ministers", which will come into being only after the next > elections. > Mailed fist for valley > > REUTERS > > Trucks stranded on a road blocked by protesters in Jammu on August 26. > > The mailed fist is reserved for the valley. The few days of mammoth > but unarmed rallies revealed nothing about popular sentiment that was > not known before. S.K. Sinha himself said: "We have been able to > control militancy in Kashmir but the mindset behind the separatist > movement is intact" (Business Standard; August 16). Precisely. > Militancy can be crushed. Alienation cannot be. It deepens with > repression. It cannot be eradicated by the crackdown on August 24 > following the visit of M.K. Narayanan, National Security Adviser. > > S.K. Sinha could not have behaved as he did or even survived in office > but for the Centre's backing, mainly, but not exclusively, by Home > Minister Shivraj Patil. Even before the crackdown ordered by the > Centre, the disparity in treatment was glaring. It has become worse > since, because some in New Delhi sympathise with the agitators in > Jammu and have been consistently and notoriously hostile to the ones > in Srinagar. It is the same old story of "them" and "us". In Jammu, as > Amitab Sinha remarked, "It is significant that despite loss of public > property and defying of curfew and prohibitory orders by thousands of > people, authorities have restrained themselves from making preventive > arrests" (Indian Express; August 6). There were attacks on Muslims; > the Gujjars' huts were torched. > > Muzamil Jaleel cited specific cases in Srinagar of the Central Reserve > Police Force targeting ambulances ferrying the injured and, "in one > instance, they opened fire at the entrance to a hospital's casualty > ward" (Indian Express; August 15). Kashmir Times editorially censured > police firing "inside the emergency and casualty wards of the SMHS > hospital" (August 13). > > It is the very peaceful character of the Hurriyat's movement that > unnerved New Delhi. "The change is that there is no militancy this > time," Mirwaiz Umer Farooq said on August 16. "New Delhi cannot > dismiss the demand of Kashmiris as militancy. Now, it has to address > the issue [of Kashmir's status]." > > On August 23, a day before the crackdown, the United Jehad Council > headed by Syed Salahuddin "unanimously decided to silence the guns in > Kashmir" (Shujaat Bhukhari; The Hindu; August 24). The New York Times' > Somini Sengupta reported from Srinagar: "The main city hospital was > filled with Kashmiris shot and wounded by Indian security forces" > (International Herald Tribune; August 23). On August 24 came the > crackdown. "This is the strictest curfew in Kashmir in the past 20 > years" (Indian Express; August 27). Srinagar went without newspapers > from August 24. Mediamen and even doctors with passes were beaten up. > > Whatever for? To soften the Hurriyat leaders to secure acceptance of > the new land deal? And, indeed, what follows next? When Nehru arrested > Sheikh Abdullah on August 9, 1953, he imagined that with repression > over time Kashmir would submit. It did not. It will not now, either. > Prime Minister Manmohan Singh must assert himself and, with his > liberal instincts, ask himself two questions: What will be the > consequences of appeasement in Jammu? And what will be the > consequences of the repression in Kashmir? He can arrest the drift to > disaster even now. How can elections be held in Jammu and Kashmir in > this situation? > > Burke's speech in the House of Commons on March 22, 1775, on > conciliation with rebellious America has stood the test of time: "The > use of force alone is but temporary. It may subdue for a moment; but > it does not remove the necessity of subduing again; and a nation is > not governed which is perpetually to be conquered… conciliation > failing, force remains, but force failing, no further hope of > reconciliation is left." > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From shuddha at sarai.net Wed Sep 17 23:49:32 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 23:49:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] First-person Account of Delhi Blast In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2744133E-4830-4E0A-8BF0-483CCCC7A55F@sarai.net> Dear Srirang and Shweta Many thanks for sharing your experience with us on the list. I am sure that all list members will join me in wishing you and your daughter Khushi a speedy recovery from this terrible and traumatic experience. Your account underlines yet again the utter pointlessness and perversity of all forms of terrorism, regardless of whether it is unleashed by people within or without the state apparatus. We spend a lot of time debating and discussing all sorts of issues on this list, but situations like what you describe compel us all to realize that ultimately these matters that we discuss do boil down to questions of life, death, pain, fear, confidence and safety for all of us at deeply personal levels. I hope we never lose sight of that fact, and I would like to thank you for reminding us, that in the end, we are fragile, easily broken bodies, and that whatever we may hold on to in terms of our ideas, convictions and ideologies must ultimately be measured against the violence that is done, way to easily, to fragile, easily broken bodies. I was very touched by your account of the anonymous stranger who helped reach you both and your child to RML Hospital. This anonymity, that does not ask for a person's name, or identity, that sees an injury as an injury, and not in terms of whether that injury can be weighed against some easily deployed identity is the kind of solidarity that all of us need in times like this. I hope we all find our own anoymous strangers in times of need. Thank you again, for showing us that this city that so many of us live in is as capable of sudden generosity and kindness as it is of terror warm regards, Shuddha On 17-Sep-08, at 6:32 PM, srirang jha wrote: > *First-person Account of Delhi Blast* > > Our Extended Family in Delhi > > By Shweta & Srirang Jha > > We do not have any kith and kin in Delhi. So we were always > concerned about > who would come to our help in case of any crisis. But all our > apprehensions > went wrong when we were hit by the bomb blast at Central Park on 13 > September 2008. We reached Connaught Place around 5:30 PM that day. > First we > went to Shree Leathers showroom near Regal Cinema. It was crowded with > frenzied weekend shoppers. There was no security check at the > entrance. So > both of us thought what if a bomb explodes in the showroom. This > thought > made us restless. So we hurriedly came out of the showroom. As our > six year > old daughter Khushi is very fond of strawberry ice-cream, we went > to Mc > Donald's to get a scoop for her. We ate burgers outside the > restaurant. Then > we moved towards the Central Park where Khushi loves to play. > Instead of > crossing the road from Palika Bazar to Central Park, we used the Metro > Sub-way. > > We had walked merely a few metres inside the Central Park when we > heard a > loud sound. We thought, it may be a gun shot, which was actually > the sound > of the bomb blast at Barakhambha Road. As we turned behind to > figure out > what had happened, there was the second blast. We started running > towards > the other end of the Central Park. At the same time we were worried > about a > possible blast at the other end of the Central Park. Somehow, we > reached the > road and started shouting for help. Both of us were profusely > bleeding. We > tried to call police help line for help. But the gentleman just > disconnected > the phone after hearing about the bomb blast. As we wanted to reach > RML > Hospital at the earliest, we requested the passersby to arrange any > vehicle. > A police constable standing there managed to stop an auto rickshaw. > > Suddenly an Indica stopped there and a young man pulled us into his > car > saying it would be too late if we take the auto rickshaw. He > dropped us at > the hospital in half an hour despite heavy traffic jam. He also > informed us > that there was another blast in Gaffar Market. Knowing fully well, the > imminent risk ahead, he decided to help us reach the hospital. We > were in > such a bad condition that we could not ask his name or say thanks > to him. He > dropped us at the Trauma Centre of RML Hospital and disappeared in the > crowd. Had he not helped us, our condition would have worsened due to > profuse bleeding. > > Inside the trauma centre, the scene was terrible. Many people were > brought > dead. Many others were severely hit. There was total chaos. Yet the > doctors, > nurses and other staff were working like soldiers and reaching out > to all > with first aid and, of course, a healing touch. So we felt a sigh > of relief. > Now we were assured that we have survived. We stayed in the trauma > centre > for around half an hour. There was immense pain and suffering. A > senior > doctor told us to take Khushi outside the trauma centre. When we > told that > both of us were injured, she told our daughter to sit on the > stretcher. The > doctor was worried about psychological impact our daughter might > have after > seeing suffering, pain and death. Anyway, soon we were shifted to the > emergency ward. > > We could call only one of our colleagues, Ajay Chauhan before the > cell phone > traffic was jammed. He, in turn, informed Prof Alok Saklani, > Director of > Apeejay School of Management, where both of us teach. He reached the > hospital in an hour. Prof Akshey Kumar, a senior colleague reached > soon > after we were shifted to emergency ward. Kunal Khurana, one of our > students, > saw us on the television and rushed to the hospital for our help. > That was > very touching. While we had expected our colleagues to arrive, Kunal's > gesture was quite soul-stirring. He was there till midnight when we > were > discharged from the hospital. Our friend Shubhankar wanted to come > to the > emergency ward but the security personnel were not allowing anyone > inside > the premises of RML Hospital. We were discharded from the hospital > in the > midnight. While we returned home with Kunal, Ranjani took care of our > daughter. > > On the second day, many of our colleagues came forward to help us. > All our > students visited us with bouquets and good wishes for early > recovery. Even > our plumber, washer-man, kabariwala, kiranawala and many others > came forward > to extend their good wishes. We started receiving calls from our > old friends > who had slipped out of touch. It was nice receiving calls from > Ranvijay, > Sanat, Chetnanad, Nasiha, Firoz, Jaevd and many others. Our > neighbours were > always there for help. So before our parents reached out to us, we got > incredible support from our extended family in Delhi. > > The extended family all-embracing healing touch to many others on that > fateful day. Hence so many lives could be saved. Probably that is > the spirit > of Delhi which attracts people from all over the country. > > > > > -- > Srirang K Jha, Ph D > Assistant Professor, > Apeejay School of Management > Dwarka, Sector 8 > New Delhi 110075 > Ph. 011-32646005 > Cell. 09958336918 > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From shuddha at sarai.net Thu Sep 18 02:34:05 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 02:34:05 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] A post-national space opens. In-Reply-To: <8031BA28-E559-4475-8A1E-CB1754B59060@sarai.net> References: <8031BA28-E559-4475-8A1E-CB1754B59060@sarai.net> Message-ID: Dear All, It has been a pleasure to witness the maturation of the debate on Kashmir, India and Azaadi on this list. Compared to where we were, even some months ago, the propensity towards name calling and abuse has gone down compared to the actual willingness to engage with the issues at hand,despite serious differences and disagreements. I would personally like to thank Sanjay Kak, Jeebesh Bagchi, Junaid Mohammed, Rahul Asthana, Kshmendra Kaul, Inder Salim, Partha Dasgupta, Tapas Ray, Radhikarajen, Radhakrishnan, Wali Arifi and Sonia Jabbar for all their contributions, I have gained a lot by listening and reading. I think we also need to thank, Arundhati Roy, Mukul Kesavan, A.G.Noorani and Umair Ahmed Muhajir, whose texts (forwarded on to this list by list members) have contributed to the depth and intensity of the exchanges. In all of this, one can see the Reader- List emerging, not just as a space for grandstanding, and the performance of rehearsed rhetorical routines, but as an actual space for thought and questioning. If this contributes in even a small way towards helping people think through the apparent intractability of the political relationships between all the peoples of Kashmir, India and Pakistan, then it will have redeemed its promise as a space for creative and imaginative discursivity in great measure. Apologies in advance for what will be a long posting. Having said all this, I would like to come back to the question that lies at the heart of the debate between the two positions representd by Roy and Muhajir. For let's look at what Roy is saying: 1. Roy's core argument can be summarized as follows : An end to the occupation of Kashmir by India is a price well worth paying if it is the means by which the dismantling of the violence that accompanies this occupation can be brought about. As she says towards the conclusion of her text "At the heart of it all is a moral question. Does any government have the right to take away people's liberty with military force?" Roy points out that too many people have died, or have been imprisoned, tortured or been made to disappear for us to pretend any longer that the continued and enforced attatchment of Kashmir to the project of the Indian nation state has any ethical basis. 2. Interestingly, Roy does not at any point suggest that she actually endorses any of the 'Islamist' or 'Secular' visions of a possible future Kashmir. And anyone who reads that endorsement into her text confuses her faithful reportage of what people may be saying on the streets of Kashmir with what she herself may feel. 3. Her doubts and reservations about the directions that the struggle for Azaadi is taking, which are listed at least 9 separate times in her essay (encompassing doubts about the treatement of all kinds of minorities, doubts about the consequences of not accounting for the exodus of Kashmiri Pandits, doubts about the nature of a so called Islamic state and so on) seem to suggest that she is amply sceptical of a great deal of the content of what is on offer by way of Azaadi in Kashmir. What she does not doubt is that people passionately believe that this Azaadi, (which they are either unable or unwilling to elaborate on) is desirable. She takes a stand which should be understandable to anyone with the slightest commitment to the virtues of democracy - if a majority of the people want something, you can argue with (and against ) what they want, but not with the fact that their is a reality to their desire. It is clear that the majority of people in the Kashmir valley do not want to remain committed to the Indian nation state. To insist that they stay committed is to ignore and destroy the reality of their desires. 4. Her criticism of India holding on to Kashmir may have one very simple point at its centre - the deeply unethical and brutal consequences of enforcing a form of governance on to an unwilling people, but her criticism of the unthought out nature of the intellectual response to this brutality by Kashmiris has at least 9 nuanced positions. These 9 positions need not be seen as signs of her hostility to the people of Kashmir, rather, they could be read as the criticism that stems from a committed, unpatronising solidarity. She 5. Personally, i found her most trenchant critique contained in the fragment that says (while considering what she found painful in the layered import of the slogan - "Nanga bhookha Hindustan, jaan se pyaara Pakistan (Naked, starving India, More precious than life itself —Pakistan). Roy says - "it was painful to listen to people who have suffered so much themselves mock others who suffer in different ways, but no less intensely, under the same oppressor. In that slogan I saw the seeds of how easily victims can become perpetrators." Seeing 'the seeds of how easily 'victims can become perpetrators' is seeing what nationalism, and the dream of national liberation actually means. And the one thing that Roy cannot be faulted for, at least in this article, is an inability to see and countenance the possibility of 'victims becoming perpetrators'. All nationalism, anchors its moral legitimacy in the idea that 'yesterdays victims, cannot do to others what has been done unto them'. Roy does not share in this delusion, and her essay while it is being read in India as a critique of the Indian state (which it no doubt is) would also no doubt be read in Kashmir as a critique of the painful limitations and narrow bandwidth of imagination of Kashmiri nationalism (and indeed of all nationalisms, of all ideologies that speak for and on behalf of 'nations in waiting') Now let us turn to the core of Muhajir is saying. I go along with much of what Muhajir says, and I find his arguments against 'nationalism' per se. compelling. Things turn a bit different however, the moment when he begins to qualify 'nationalisms' and weigh different kinds of nationalism as 'lesser' and 'greater' evils. After much ado, Muhajir's basic premise is as follows - the continuation of the occupation is a price well worth paying for the sake of the sake of the lesser of two evil's in so far as types of nation state are concerned. Muhajir believes that an independent Kashmiri Nation-State would inherently tend towards affirming an exclusionary principle, and that the Indian model of the nation state, for all its flaws, still retains the value of being an 'inclusive, pluralistic' (albeit imperfectly inclusive and pluralistic) model for a nation-state building. "they (nation states) are not all inhuman in precisely the same way; nor are they all equally inhuman, by which I simply mean that they are not all equally incapable of accommodating human difference, whether communitarian or otherwise." Let us ask, precisely how the Indian nation state has proved to be 'capable' of accomodating human difference? Without going into a great deal of detail, I would like to focus on the simple fact that the continued operation of the Armed Forces Special Powers Act, in Kashmir, and parts of the North East takes away the constitutional guarantee that the state provides to its citizens that they will not be deprived of life and liberty without due process of law. The AFSPA empowers Armed Forces Personnel to kill, detain and destroy the property of the people who happen to be under its jurisdiction with impunity. This means, that at least insofar as the basic guarantee of life is concerned, the areas where the AFSPA operates are not instances where the state demonstrates an 'equal capability to accommodate human difference'. For a Kashmiri, (and for someone in the North East) who has had to deal with death and disappearance as sanctioned under the AFSPA, the difference between being a Kashmiri, A Naga, a Manipuri and some other kind of 'Indian' can mean the difference between life and death. That this situation has continued to be sustained by the Indian state for 18 years in Kashmir, and 50 years in the North East, means that the Indian state does view the people who happen to live in these two vast swathes of territory in a somewhat different light. This is no longer something that can be viewed as an 'aberration' or as state excess. It is the way in which the Indian state functions 'normally' in Kashmir and in the North East. It 'accommodates' the difference of their people by maintaining the highest 'military to civilian' ratio in Kashmir and by the daily humiliations that it visits on a people it treats as its 'subjects' as a matter of stable policy because they happen to inhabit tracts of territory that are 'strategically' important for reasons of state. I have no doubt at all about the fact that the resistance to the Indian state that crystallizes in these areas, (whether in the form of the NSCSN (IM) or (K) or the PLA or the different factions of the miltiant resistance and their overground supporters in Kashmir) often occupy a space that is as auhoritarian as that occupied by the Indian state. But the people who inhabit these areas cannot be expected to rely on one form of authoritarianism to protect them from the depredations of another. In fact there is a rough equivalence in the two apparently diametrically opposite positions that say either 'no discussion and debate about what exactly 'independence' means until the Indian state vacates the territory' and 'no withdrawal of armed forces and special laws until the end of the insurgency'. Both of these positions need to be rejected. Roy does not fall into the trap of endorsing one in order to battle the other, in fact her explicit demand to her Kashmiri audience is to actually wrestle with the necessity of articulating the contours of the future that they desire for themselves. She says - "it is time for those who are part of the struggle to outline a vision for what kind of society they are fighting for. Perhaps it is time to offer people something more than martyrs, slogans and vague generalisations. Those who wish to turn to the Quran for guidance will no doubt find guidance there. But what of those who do not wish to do that, or for whom the Quran does not make place? Do the Hindus of Jammu and other minorities also have the right to self- determination? Will the hundreds of thousands of Kashmiri Pandits living in exile, many of them in terrible poverty, have the right to return? Will they be paid reparations for the terrible losses they have suffered? Or will a free Kashmir do to its minorities what India has done to Kashmiris for 61 years? What will happen to homosexuals and adulterers and blasphemers? What of thieves and lafangas and writers who do not agree with the "complete social and moral code"? Will we be put to death as we are in Saudi Arabia? Will the cycle of death, repression and bloodshed continue? History offers many models for Kashmir's thinkers and intellectuals and politicians to study. What will the Kashmir of their dreams look like? Algeria? Iran? South Africa? Switzerland? Pakistan?" The discussion on this list has extended the logic of this demand. We have had people, especially Jeebesh, talk of the possibility of 'post national' paths as concrete possibilities, Sonia Jabbar has spoken of 'confederal South Asia', Rahul Asthana has spoken of a 'Hong Kong' like arrangement. All of these are as valid options as 'independence', and need to be considered in turn. Muhajir's text, actually does not offer us this range of possibilities. In the end, it asks Kashmiris to reconcile themselves to the brutality of the Indian occupation simply on the basis of the fact that it comes garbed in a normatively 'inclusive' form of nationalism. Actually, when a boot kicks your face in, it is a bit odd to console oneself with the fact that the boot happens to be a happily 'secular' one. I don't quite see how doing so could possibly relieve the agony of having your face kicked in. Even so, I welcome the fact that it has acted as a catalyst in terms of leading us towards the possibility of hinking this through outside the familiar and exhausted tropes of nation states. So, what might a future Kashmir be. Let me throw my own two bits into the ring, following on the lines sketched out by Jeebesh. In doing this, I take the term 'Azaadi' seriously, and interpret it to mean the liberation, not only from external, but also 'internal' domination, and it is this that colours my perspective on possible futures for Kashmir. 1. Demilitarization of Jammu and Kashmir. The 700,000 Indian soldiers in Indian Occupied Kashmir to withdraw, (south of Jammu) the 50,000+ Pakistani soldiers in Pakistani Occupied Kashmir to withdraw (west of POK and Northern Areas). All militias (insurgent or counter insurgent) and paramilitaries to decommission weapons and demobilize under international observation (as happened in Northern Ireland) . The process of withdrawal, decommissioing and demobilizing to take place under the auspices of an international body within a UN mandate (as happened in East Timor and Bosnia). A UN peacekeeping force to be stationed in Kashmir, paid for by the Governments of India, Pakistan and China (as reparations) This could have peacekeepers from Bosnia, East Timor, Iraqi Kurdistan, Norway and Lebanon. 2. A cooling period of five to seven years, during which Jammu and Kashmir (including present day 'Azad' Kashmir, Northern Areas in Pakistan and Ladakh in India as well as the Aksai Chin and Karakorum regions ceded or annexed by China) is governed as a UN mandated territory, with full local autonomy, with the presence of the UN Peacekeeping Force at limited levels. Normal, unrestricted political activity, complete freedom of speech and association and local governance to determine quesitons of local importance. Free movement of people, and free trade, across the LOC. People of J&K to be issued special travel documents for 'stateless people'. People of India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Tibet and Central Asian republics can travel without visas to J&K. All others to receive visas on arrival, Adminstered by the UN administration. Eventually, people in J&K to be given the freedom to opt for cascading forms of dual citizenship. J&K to have a twenty year tax holiday, fiscal burden of administration to be on the UN. People not domiciled in J&K not to have the right to own property in land in the region. 3. All displaced people (including those displaced in 1947, 1965, 1971, 1989 and after) of all denominations (Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist and others) to be allowed right of honourable return, with reparations in the event of loss or destruction of property. Indigenous Nomadic peoples to have freedom of movement across the entire territory of J&K. 4. A constituent assembly to be set up during the five year cooling period on the basis of universal adult franchise, to discuss the future constitutional arrangements for J&K. Plebiscite to be held, under UN auspices, with the presence of international observers, after five years to determine the exact nature of constitutional arrangements. The constituent assembly is to be guided to develop models of statehood without the necessity of a standing army, (Japan's post war constitution can be a basis for a state which gives up the right to conduct war and maintain a standing army) so that a future free territory of Kashmir does not represent a threat to any of its neighbours. India. Pakistan and China, to give guarantees to protect the independence and sovereignty of Kashmir, to undertake not to invade or station their armed forces in J&K. J&K to be declared a 'zone of peace' with special heritage protection for all religious and culturally important sites and environmentally fragile zones. 5. I am not averse to an EU style South Asian Union, especially if it provides for freedom of movement between the different parts of South Asia, and makes borders and border controls in the region irrelevant. In some ways, I think that this will be inevitable. But the terms for participation in this union need to be democratic and equitable. It hardly matters to me as to whether the people of J&K participate within this arrangement as 'Indians', 'Pakistanis' or as 'Independent' or as 'members of a 'post national entity'. The crucial thing is, if they do not want to participate in this arrangement as 'Indians', nothing should compel them to do so. I see all of the above as practical and realizable goals. The most important obstacle is the presence of large bodies of official and informal armed men, once those are removed, anything is possible. There are many territories in the world, ranging from the Aaland Islands, to Andorra, to Northern Ireland, to Hong Kong, to South Tyrol whose constitutional contours contain elements that may be useful for thinking 'out of the box' solutions to the Kashmir dispute. In fact the so called step by step formula put forward by Musharraf during the Agra Summit had a lot that could have been thought through Siddharth Varadarjan, writing in 'Newsline' has provided a useful summary of some of these possibilities, see - http://www.newsline.com.pk/NewsNov2004/cover3nov2004.htm Whatever be the possibilities, they will probably need a comprehensive measure of demilitarization to become workable. Demilitarization, in its simplest and most effective sense means the 'abolition of the standing army'. It needs to be remembered, that for about fifty odd years, the 'abolition of the standing army' was the standard demand of every respectable socialist, social democratic, anarchist and working class party in the world from the mid nineteenth century onwards. The abolition of standing armies was a mainstream, respectable slogan, it had nothing dreamy or utopian about it. The first world war put an end to this vigorous tradition of practical pacifism in the International Working Class Movement. Perhaps the future of Kashmir can bring this utterly human demand back on the agenda for the rest of the world in a real sense. If Kashmiri people, and their leaderships seize this opportunity to demand an abolition of standing armies on their territory they will have made a fundamental contribution to world history. I sincerely hope that they respond positively to the challenge that this opportunity represents. --------------------------------- Finally, a word about the confessional character of a state, or its secular, or non secular basis. As a person with no interest whatsoever in perpetuating the nation state as a form of human organization, I refuse to make the case for 'secular' states as being necessarily better or worse than 'non secular' ones. I think that states need to be judged, not on their formal accotrements, but on their actual conduct. Technically, the United Kingdom is not a secular state. The United Kingdom has a an official state church, and the head of state is also the head of the Church of England. Yet, it treats its minorities better than say, Turkey, or France, both of which are secular state. Saudi Arabia is a nightmare of a non secular state, and China is a nightmare of a secular state, insofar as issues pertaining to the freedom of conscience is concerned. IN our own neighbourhood, the Indian state has lived quite happily with the fact that until recently, Nepal was an autocratic, theocratic monarchy within the hands of a single corrupt dynasty. This dynasty also bankrolled Hindu fundamentalist outfits in India, and at one time offered refuge (as a fleeing tyrant) to Indira Gandhi after she had been defeated in 1977. I have never heard anyone say that Nepal's theocratic, corrupt, autocratic monarchy was a problem for anyone other than the people of Nepal (and they have quite competently got rid of that problem). I do not hear people say that where a revived Lama State in Tibet to exist, it would be a problem for India. Why then would the possibility of an Islamic, or even an Islamist state in Kashmir (if at all that came to pass, which may or may not be likely) be a necessary problem for India, If anything, it should be a problem (if it were to be a problem) that the people of Kashmir would have to deal with, in their own fashion, in their own time. Those of us who believe that the state should not interfere in the private lives of people, and in matters of faith, conscience and doubt, would find ways of supporting that struggle, if it were to take place, in a possible future Kashmir. If it were not to take place, I would advise that we reconcile ourselves to the presence of an Islamic Kashmir in our neighbourhood, exactly as we have reconciled ourselves to a Hindu State in Nepal all these decades. I cannot see how one can be worse than the other. regards, Shuddha From rashneek at gmail.com Thu Sep 18 09:08:46 2008 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 09:08:46 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] A post-national space opens. In-Reply-To: References: <8031BA28-E559-4475-8A1E-CB1754B59060@sarai.net> Message-ID: <13df7c120809172038m491455bw518ed46dae565d39@mail.gmail.com> Shudda, The only thing is that a Hindu Nepal did not drive out 5 lac muslims to become a Hindu State while your Islamic Republic of Kashmir would to be awash with the ethnic and religious cleansing of minority Pandits. Equally interesting is the fact that you are writing these posts when you yourself have been guilty of spreading misinformation campaign on Kashmir either by saying that Pandits could have been killed by Ikhwans in 1989 or that Sankarvarman destroyed Buddhist Viharas.So it is time for you to go back to school before you can reclaim the Kashmir expert position and post your solutions to a problem which either you dont understand or seem to misunderstand,misrepresent and misnterpret thus. Although one would support any resolution which would avoid further bloodshed but to grow Chinars on Batte Mazar,well let us wait and see. Rashneek On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 2:34 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear All, > > It has been a pleasure to witness the maturation of the debate on > Kashmir, India and Azaadi on this list. Compared to where we were, > even some months ago, the propensity towards name calling and abuse > has gone down compared to the actual willingness to engage with the > issues at hand,despite serious differences and disagreements. I would > personally like to thank Sanjay Kak, Jeebesh Bagchi, Junaid Mohammed, > Rahul Asthana, Kshmendra Kaul, Inder Salim, Partha Dasgupta, Tapas > Ray, Radhikarajen, Radhakrishnan, Wali Arifi and Sonia Jabbar for > all their contributions, I have gained a lot by listening and > reading. I think we also need to thank, Arundhati Roy, Mukul Kesavan, > A.G.Noorani and Umair Ahmed Muhajir, whose texts (forwarded on to > this list by list members) have contributed to the depth and > intensity of the exchanges. In all of this, one can see the Reader- > List emerging, not just as a space for grandstanding, and the > performance of rehearsed rhetorical routines, but as an actual space > for thought and questioning. If this contributes in even a small way > towards helping people think through the apparent intractability of > the political relationships between all the peoples of Kashmir, India > and Pakistan, then it will have redeemed its promise as a space for > creative and imaginative discursivity in great measure. > > Apologies in advance for what will be a long posting. > > Having said all this, I would like to come back to the question that > lies at the heart of the debate between the two positions representd > by Roy and Muhajir. > > For let's look at what Roy is saying: > > 1. Roy's core argument can be summarized as follows : An end to the > occupation of Kashmir by India is a price well worth paying if it is > the means by which the dismantling of the violence that accompanies > this occupation can be brought about. As she says towards the > conclusion of her text "At the heart of it all is a moral question. > Does any government have the right to take away people's liberty with > military force?" > > Roy points out that too many people have died, or have been > imprisoned, tortured or been made to disappear for us to pretend any > longer that the continued and enforced attatchment of Kashmir to the > project of the Indian nation state has any ethical basis. > > 2. Interestingly, Roy does not at any point suggest that she actually > endorses any of the 'Islamist' or 'Secular' visions of a possible > future Kashmir. And anyone who reads that endorsement into her text > confuses her faithful reportage of what people may be saying on the > streets of Kashmir with what she herself may feel. > > 3. Her doubts and reservations about the directions that the struggle > for Azaadi is taking, which are listed at least 9 separate times in > her essay (encompassing doubts about the treatement of all kinds of > minorities, doubts about the consequences of not accounting for the > exodus of Kashmiri Pandits, doubts about the nature of a so called > Islamic state and so on) seem to suggest that she is amply sceptical > of a great deal of the content of what is on offer by way of Azaadi > in Kashmir. What she does not doubt is that people passionately > believe that this Azaadi, (which they are either unable or unwilling > to elaborate on) is desirable. She takes a stand which should be > understandable to anyone with the slightest commitment to the virtues > of democracy - if a majority of the people want something, you can > argue with (and against ) what they want, but not with the fact that > their is a reality to their desire. It is clear that the majority of > people in the Kashmir valley do not want to remain committed to the > Indian nation state. To insist that they stay committed is to ignore > and destroy the reality of their desires. > > 4. Her criticism of India holding on to Kashmir may have one very > simple point at its centre - the deeply unethical and brutal > consequences of enforcing a form of governance on to an unwilling > people, but her criticism of the unthought out nature of the > intellectual response to this brutality by Kashmiris has at least 9 > nuanced positions. These 9 positions need not be seen as signs of her > hostility to the people of Kashmir, rather, they could be read as the > criticism that stems from a committed, unpatronising solidarity. She > > 5. Personally, i found her most trenchant critique contained in the > fragment that says (while considering what she found painful in the > layered import of the slogan - "Nanga bhookha Hindustan, jaan se > pyaara Pakistan (Naked, starving India, More precious than life itself > —Pakistan). Roy says - "it was painful to listen to people who have > suffered so much themselves mock others who suffer in different ways, > but no less intensely, under the same oppressor. In that slogan I saw > the seeds of how easily victims can become perpetrators." > > Seeing 'the seeds of how easily 'victims can become perpetrators' is > seeing what nationalism, and the dream of national liberation > actually means. And the one thing that Roy cannot be faulted for, at > least in this article, is an inability to see and countenance the > possibility of 'victims becoming perpetrators'. All nationalism, > anchors its moral legitimacy in the idea that 'yesterdays victims, > cannot do to others what has been done unto them'. Roy does not share > in this delusion, and her essay while it is being read in India as a > critique of the Indian state (which it no doubt is) would also no > doubt be read in Kashmir as a critique of the painful limitations and > narrow bandwidth of imagination of Kashmiri nationalism (and indeed > of all nationalisms, of all ideologies that speak for and on behalf > of 'nations in waiting') > > Now let us turn to the core of Muhajir is saying. I go along with > much of what Muhajir says, and I find his arguments against > 'nationalism' per se. compelling. Things turn a bit different > however, the moment when he begins to qualify 'nationalisms' and > weigh different kinds of nationalism as 'lesser' and 'greater' evils. > > After much ado, Muhajir's basic premise is as follows - the > continuation of the occupation is a price well worth paying for the > sake of the sake of the lesser of two evil's in so far as types of > nation state are concerned. Muhajir believes that an independent > Kashmiri Nation-State would inherently tend towards affirming an > exclusionary principle, and that the Indian model of the nation > state, for all its flaws, still retains the value of being an > 'inclusive, pluralistic' (albeit imperfectly inclusive and > pluralistic) model for a nation-state building. > > "they (nation states) are not all inhuman in precisely the same way; > nor are they all equally inhuman, by which I simply mean that they > are not all equally incapable of accommodating human difference, > whether communitarian or otherwise." > > Let us ask, precisely how the Indian nation state has proved to be > 'capable' of accomodating human difference? Without going into a > great deal of detail, I would like to focus on the simple fact that > the continued operation of the Armed Forces Special Powers Act, in > Kashmir, and parts of the North East takes away the constitutional > guarantee that the state provides to its citizens that they will not > be deprived of life and liberty without due process of law. The AFSPA > empowers Armed Forces Personnel to kill, detain and destroy the > property of the people who happen to be under its jurisdiction with > impunity. > > This means, that at least insofar as the basic guarantee of life is > concerned, the areas where the AFSPA operates are not instances where > the state demonstrates an 'equal capability to accommodate human > difference'. For a Kashmiri, (and for someone in the North East) who > has had to deal with death and disappearance as sanctioned under the > AFSPA, the difference between being a Kashmiri, A Naga, a Manipuri > and some other kind of 'Indian' can mean the difference between life > and death. > > That this situation has continued to be sustained by the Indian state > for 18 years in Kashmir, and 50 years in the North East, means that > the Indian state does view the people who happen to live in these two > vast swathes of territory in a somewhat different light. This is no > longer something that can be viewed as an 'aberration' or as state > excess. It is the way in which the Indian state functions 'normally' > in Kashmir and in the North East. It 'accommodates' the difference of > their people by maintaining the highest 'military to civilian' ratio > in Kashmir and by the daily humiliations that it visits on a people > it treats as its 'subjects' as a matter of stable policy because they > happen to inhabit tracts of territory that are 'strategically' > important for reasons of state. > > I have no doubt at all about the fact that the resistance to the > Indian state that crystallizes in these areas, (whether in the form > of the NSCSN (IM) or (K) or the PLA or the different factions of the > miltiant resistance and their overground supporters in Kashmir) often > occupy a space that is as auhoritarian as that occupied by the Indian > state. But the people who inhabit these areas cannot be expected to > rely on one form of authoritarianism to protect them from the > depredations of another. > > In fact there is a rough equivalence in the two apparently > diametrically opposite positions that say either 'no discussion and > debate about what exactly 'independence' means until the Indian state > vacates the territory' and 'no withdrawal of armed forces and special > laws until the end of the insurgency'. Both of these positions need > to be rejected. Roy does not fall into the trap of endorsing one in > order to battle the other, in fact her explicit demand to her > Kashmiri audience is to actually wrestle with the necessity of > articulating the contours of the future that they desire for > themselves. She says - > > "it is time for those who are part of the struggle to outline a > vision for what kind of society they are fighting for. Perhaps it is > time to offer people something more than martyrs, slogans and vague > generalisations. Those who wish to turn to the Quran for guidance > will no doubt find guidance there. But what of those who do not wish > to do that, or for whom the Quran does not make place? Do the Hindus > of Jammu and other minorities also have the right to self- > determination? Will the hundreds of thousands of Kashmiri Pandits > living in exile, many of them in terrible poverty, have the right to > return? Will they be paid reparations for the terrible losses they > have suffered? Or will a free Kashmir do to its minorities what India > has done to Kashmiris for 61 years? What will happen to homosexuals > and adulterers and blasphemers? What of thieves and lafangas and > writers who do not agree with the "complete social and moral code"? > Will we be put to death as we are in Saudi Arabia? Will the cycle of > death, repression and bloodshed continue? History offers many models > for Kashmir's thinkers and intellectuals and politicians to study. > What will the Kashmir of their dreams look like? Algeria? Iran? South > Africa? Switzerland? Pakistan?" > > The discussion on this list has extended the logic of this demand. We > have had people, especially Jeebesh, talk of the possibility of 'post > national' paths as concrete possibilities, Sonia Jabbar has spoken of > 'confederal South Asia', Rahul Asthana has spoken of a 'Hong Kong' > like arrangement. All of these are as valid options as > 'independence', and need to be considered in turn. > > Muhajir's text, actually does not offer us this range of > possibilities. In the end, it asks Kashmiris to reconcile themselves > to the brutality of the Indian occupation simply on the basis of the > fact that it comes garbed in a normatively 'inclusive' form of > nationalism. Actually, when a boot kicks your face in, it is a bit > odd to console oneself with the fact that the boot happens to be a > happily 'secular' one. I don't quite see how doing so could possibly > relieve the agony of having your face kicked in. Even so, I welcome > the fact that it has acted as a catalyst in terms of leading us > towards the possibility of hinking this through outside the familiar > and exhausted tropes of nation states. > > So, what might a future Kashmir be. Let me throw my own two bits into > the ring, following on the lines sketched out by Jeebesh. In doing > this, I take the term 'Azaadi' seriously, and interpret it to mean > the liberation, not only from external, but also 'internal' > domination, and it is this that colours my perspective on possible > futures for Kashmir. > > 1. Demilitarization of Jammu and Kashmir. The 700,000 Indian soldiers > in Indian Occupied Kashmir to withdraw, (south of Jammu) the 50,000+ > Pakistani soldiers in Pakistani Occupied Kashmir to withdraw (west of > POK and Northern Areas). All militias (insurgent or counter > insurgent) and paramilitaries to decommission weapons and demobilize > under international observation (as happened in Northern Ireland) . > The process of withdrawal, decommissioing and demobilizing to take > place under the auspices of an international body within a UN mandate > (as happened in East Timor and Bosnia). A UN peacekeeping force to be > stationed in Kashmir, paid for by the Governments of India, Pakistan > and China (as reparations) This could have peacekeepers from Bosnia, > East Timor, Iraqi Kurdistan, Norway and Lebanon. > > 2. A cooling period of five to seven years, during which Jammu and > Kashmir (including present day 'Azad' Kashmir, Northern Areas in > Pakistan and Ladakh in India as well as the Aksai Chin and Karakorum > regions ceded or annexed by China) is governed as a UN mandated > territory, with full local autonomy, with the presence of the UN > Peacekeeping Force at limited levels. Normal, unrestricted political > activity, complete freedom of speech and association and local > governance to determine quesitons of local importance. Free movement > of people, and free trade, across the LOC. People of J&K to be issued > special travel documents for 'stateless people'. People of India, > Pakistan, Afghanistan, Tibet and Central Asian republics can travel > without visas to J&K. All others to receive visas on arrival, > Adminstered by the UN administration. Eventually, people in J&K to be > given the freedom to opt for cascading forms of dual citizenship. J&K > to have a twenty year tax holiday, fiscal burden of administration to > be on the UN. People not domiciled in J&K not to have the right to > own property in land in the region. > > 3. All displaced people (including those displaced in 1947, 1965, > 1971, 1989 and after) of all denominations (Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist > and others) to be allowed right of honourable return, with > reparations in the event of loss or destruction of property. > Indigenous Nomadic peoples to have freedom of movement across the > entire territory of J&K. > > 4. A constituent assembly to be set up during the five year cooling > period on the basis of universal adult franchise, to discuss the > future constitutional arrangements for J&K. Plebiscite to be held, > under UN auspices, with the presence of international observers, > after five years to determine the exact nature of constitutional > arrangements. The constituent assembly is to be guided to develop > models of statehood without the necessity of a standing army, > (Japan's post war constitution can be a basis for a state which gives > up the right to conduct war and maintain a standing army) so that a > future free territory of Kashmir does not represent a threat to any > of its neighbours. India. Pakistan and China, to give guarantees to > protect the independence and sovereignty of Kashmir, to undertake not > to invade or station their armed forces in J&K. J&K to be declared a > 'zone of peace' with special heritage protection for all religious > and culturally important sites and environmentally fragile zones. > > 5. I am not averse to an EU style South Asian Union, especially if it > provides for freedom of movement between the different parts of South > Asia, and makes borders and border controls in the region irrelevant. > In some ways, I think that this will be inevitable. But the terms for > participation in this union need to be democratic and equitable. It > hardly matters to me as to whether the people of J&K participate > within this arrangement as 'Indians', 'Pakistanis' or as > 'Independent' or as 'members of a 'post national entity'. The crucial > thing is, if they do not want to participate in this arrangement as > 'Indians', nothing should compel them to do so. > > I see all of the above as practical and realizable goals. The most > important obstacle is the presence of large bodies of official and > informal armed men, once those are removed, anything is possible. > There are many territories in the world, ranging from the Aaland > Islands, to Andorra, to Northern Ireland, to Hong Kong, to South > Tyrol whose constitutional contours contain elements that may be > useful for thinking 'out of the box' solutions to the Kashmir > dispute. In fact the so called step by step formula put forward by > Musharraf during the Agra Summit had a lot that could have been > thought through > > Siddharth Varadarjan, writing in 'Newsline' has provided a useful > summary of some of these possibilities, see - > http://www.newsline.com.pk/NewsNov2004/cover3nov2004.htm > > Whatever be the possibilities, they will probably need a > comprehensive measure of demilitarization to become workable. > Demilitarization, in its simplest and most effective sense means the > 'abolition of the standing army'. > > It needs to be remembered, that for about fifty odd years, the > 'abolition of the standing army' was the standard demand of every > respectable socialist, social democratic, anarchist and working class > party in the world from the mid nineteenth century onwards. The > abolition of standing armies was a mainstream, respectable slogan, it > had nothing dreamy or utopian about it. The first world war put an > end to this vigorous tradition of practical pacifism in the > International Working Class Movement. Perhaps the future of Kashmir > can bring this utterly human demand back on the agenda for the rest > of the world in a real sense. If Kashmiri people, and their > leaderships seize this opportunity to demand an abolition of standing > armies on their territory they will have made a fundamental > contribution to world history. I sincerely hope that they respond > positively to the challenge that this opportunity represents. > > --------------------------------- > Finally, a word about the confessional character of a state, or its > secular, or non secular basis. As a person with no interest > whatsoever in perpetuating the nation state as a form of human > organization, I refuse to make the case for 'secular' states as being > necessarily better or worse than 'non secular' ones. I think that > states need to be judged, not on their formal accotrements, but on > their actual conduct. > > Technically, the United Kingdom is not a secular state. The United > Kingdom has a an official state church, and the head of state is also > the head of the Church of England. Yet, it treats its minorities > better than say, Turkey, or France, both of which are secular state. > Saudi Arabia is a nightmare of a non secular state, and China is a > nightmare of a secular state, insofar as issues pertaining to the > freedom of conscience is concerned. IN our own neighbourhood, the > Indian state has lived quite happily with the fact that until > recently, Nepal was an autocratic, theocratic monarchy within the > hands of a single corrupt dynasty. This dynasty also bankrolled Hindu > fundamentalist outfits in India, and at one time offered refuge (as a > fleeing tyrant) to Indira Gandhi after she had been defeated in 1977. > I have never heard anyone say that Nepal's theocratic, corrupt, > autocratic monarchy was a problem for anyone other than the people of > Nepal (and they have quite competently got rid of that problem). I do > not hear people say that where a revived Lama State in Tibet to > exist, it would be a problem for India. Why then would the > possibility of an Islamic, or even an Islamist state in Kashmir (if > at all that came to pass, which may or may not be likely) be a > necessary problem for India, If anything, it should be a problem (if > it were to be a problem) that the people of Kashmir would have to > deal with, in their own fashion, in their own time. > > Those of us who believe that the state should not interfere in the > private lives of people, and in matters of faith, conscience and > doubt, would find ways of supporting that struggle, if it were to > take place, in a possible future Kashmir. If it were not to take > place, I would advise that we reconcile ourselves to the presence of > an Islamic Kashmir in our neighbourhood, exactly as we have > reconciled ourselves to a Hindu State in Nepal all these decades. I > cannot see how one can be worse than the other. > > regards, > > Shuddha > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Rashneek Kher Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten Human Tragedy http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From khurramparvez at yahoo.com Thu Sep 18 11:32:06 2008 From: khurramparvez at yahoo.com (Khurram Parvez) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 23:02:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The updated list of killings by the firing of armed forces Message-ID: <921672.85527.qm@web31813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> KILLINGS IN JAMMU DURING Amarnath Sangharsh Samiti Protests   S.NO NAME PARENTAGE DATE ADDRESS/PLACE OF KILLING 1. Sunny Padha (30) Khemraj Padha August 4-2008 Samba 2. Sanjeev Singh (24) Chanchal Singh August 4-2008 Samba              KILLINGS DURING 2008 PRO-FREEDOM PROTESTS   S.NO NAME PARENTAGE DATE ADDRESS/PLACE OF KILLING   Feroz Ahmad Rah, (35) (Conductor) Late.Ghulam.Hassan Rah June 23,2008 Jogiwan, Botakadal Killed at Nowhatta   Farooq Ahmad Rather (Student)   June 25,2008 Mazhama, Magam   Sameer Ahmad, (24), Driver   June 25,2008 Tashwan Chowk Fatehkadal Killed at Nawakadal   Imtiyaz Ahmad, (19)   June 28,2008 Firdous colony Bemina   Abdul Gani Sheikh, (75) Abdul Samad Sheikh July 1,2008 Ganie Mohalla Budgam   Feroz Ahmad Khan (Coppersmith) Mehraj-ud-din June 24, 2008(succumbed on July 5, 2008) Taeng-pora, Nawab Bazaar Killed at Basant Bagh   Asif Mehraj (16) Mehraj-ud-Din August 4,2008 Maisuma   Sheikh Abdul Aziz (Senior Hurriyat Conference Leader) Pampore August 11,2008 Killed at Uri   Manzoor Ahmad Akhoon Haji Abdul Shaban August 11,2008 Khanpora Baramulla Killed at Uri   Abdul Hamid Bhat Dr. Abdul Qayoom August 11,2008 Kanlibagh, Baramulla Killed at Uri   Ishfaq Ahmad Ghulam Muhammad August 11,2008 Qamarwari.   Mehboob Hussain Deewani Khursheed Ahmad August 11,2008 Bilal Colony, Bemina (killed at Parimpora)   Tahir Nazir Lone Nazir Ahmad August 11,2008 Thenam Kreeri, Pattan Killed at Sangrama   Irfan Ahmad War Bashir Ahmad August 11,2008 Krashun Sopore Killed at Uri   Abid Mustafa Sheikh (18) Ghulam Mustafa Sheikh August 12,2008 Lasjan   Kamraan Sheikh   August 12, 2008 Bemina   Imtiyaz Ahmad Bhat (19) Abdul Gani August 12,2008 Lasjan   Hasina Begum W/O: Bashir Ahmad Mir August 12,2008 Lasjan   Jabeena Begum   August 12,2008 Lasjan   Imran Qayoom Wani (25) Abdul Qayoom August 12,2008 Bagh-e-Mehtab Killed at Bagh-e-Mehtab   Owais Majeed Abdul Majeed August 12,2008 Rainawari Killed at Rainawari   Javaid Ahmad Mir Cameraman of a local news channel, 9TV Ghulam Ahmad August 12,2008 Beighpora, Baghi-Mehtab Killed at Baghi-Mehtab   Mumtaz Ahmed Bhat Mohammad Afzal August 12,2008 Aloosa Bandipora Killed at 15 RR camp Paribal Bandipora   Ali Muhammad Khanday Ghulam Mohammad August 12,2008 Aloosa gath Killed at 15 RR camp Paribal Bandipora   Muhammad Shafi Ganai Abdul Aziz August 12,2008 Ganai Mohalla Aloosa Killed at 15 RR camp Paribal Bandipora   Mehrajudin Khah Abdul Salam August 12,2008 Aloosa gath Bandipora Killed at 15 RR camp Paribal Bandipora   Javaid Ahmad   August 12,2008 Mansbal   Muhammad Aslam Khan   August 12,2008 Kandiwara, Sagam, Kokernag   Muhammad Saleem Shah Peer Muhammad Shah August 12 Naibasti Islamabad   Showkat Ahmed Najar   August 12 Marhama Bijbehara   Sajjad Ahmad   August 12 Rohama, Rafiabad   Irfan Ahmad Ganie Bashir Ahmad August 11,2008 (Succumbed on Aug 12,2008) Seer Jagier Sopore Killed at Uri   Muhammad Maqbool Killam Abdul Gani Kaleem August 12,2008 Kishtwar   Gufraan   August 12,2008 Thakrai, Kishtwar   Gazanfar Sheikh (10)   August 12,2008 Kishtwar   Hafizullah Baba Muhammad Jamal August 12,2008 (Succumbed on Aug 13) Barthan Qamarwari Killed at Parimpora   Faisal Ahmed Dar Showkat Ahmad Dar August 12,2008 (Succumbed on Aug 13) Nowhatta Killed at Baghi-Mehtab   Tanveer Ahmed Handoo   August 14,2008 Safa Kadal   Muhammad Rafiq Muhammad Altaf August Zoonimar (killed at Saidapora)   Latief Ahmad Wani Mohammad Amin August 17,2008 Khan colony, Chanapora Presently Pantachowk Beaten and scorched by rioters on August 5,died in AIIMS Delhi on August 17.   Ghulam Qadir Wakil   August 24,2008 succumbed on August 25,2008 Killed near Dalgate   Zahid Ahmad Banday   August 24,2008 Killed at Pushkar Khag, Beerwah, Budgam   Mohammad Shafi Dar Ghulam Nabi August 25,2008 Killed at Hajan Chowk   Naseema W/o Mohammad Ashraf August 25,2008 Killed at Hajan Chowk   Shahid Ahmad Pahloo   August 25,2008 Saderkot Balla Killed at Hajan Chowk   Basit Bashir   August 25,2008 Pulwama   Fayaz Ahmad Wani   August 25,2008 Pulwama   Fahmeeda W/o Fayaz Ahmad August 25,2008 Chontipura Handwara   Mohammad Yousuf Banday   August 27,2008 Banday Mohalla Handwara Killed at Banday Mohalla   Hilal Ahmad Mir Abdul Khaliq Mir August 27, 2008 Soibugh Budgam   Ghulam Nabi Wani   August 27, 2008 Soibugh Budgam.   Showket Ahmad Khanday Mohammad Abdullah August 25, 2008 Narbal Hanzghad (Srinagar-Baramulla Highway)   Name not ascertained yet   August 11, 2008 Resident of Boniyar   Name not ascertained yet   August 12, 2008 Killed at Nagabal, Ganderbal   Javiad Iqbal Bhat (Sumo Driver by profession)   August 4-2008 Killed at Nowhatta-Srinagar   Sajjad Ahmed Ganai (18)   September 12, 2008 Malik Mohalla, Shopian   Manzoor Afzal Sheikh (24) Mohammad Afzal Sheikh September 12, 2008 Kupwara Killed at Baramulla old town     From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Thu Sep 18 12:40:00 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 13:10:00 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] BANGLADESH: It's Time You Were Gone Message-ID: As Bangladesh's 2 year limbo army-led "caretaker government" comes near an end, and we head into an uncertain future of promised "return to democracy" in December 2008, everyone is describing the last two years as a massive disaster. One anthropologist has said simply "they have not improved a thing, but the army has made everything much worse". The original title for the op-ed below was "It's Time You Were Gone", but was changed prior to publication. Blog discussion at: http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2008/09/15/time-you-were-gone/ DAILY STAR, September 15, 2008 End The Grand Experiment By Saher Zaidi "It's time — it's time you were gone" - Anton Chekhov [Agafya] Sitting in traffic and calculating how long it would take my 10 minute ride to mutate into 2 hours, I thought about traffic as a metaphor for the country. Then I cracked open the newspaper and found I was not the only one. H Khondker calls it "Spaces of Despair" in The Daily Star, although his recommendations (headlights on rickshaws, teach rickshaw pullers the rules) smell like the same shushil samaj philosophy (danda mere thanda, and always blame the subaltern) that landed us in this national mess. Putting hard facts to the exploding traffic crisis, Kailash Sarkar of Daily Star informs us that a 10 km ride (Bangla Motor-Bangla College) is now a 3.5 hour 'odyssey'. People are using apocalyptic language: "Commuters say the entire city traffic system has collapsed". But here is the key statistic that will make the metaphor even more solid: 1 lakh vehicles out of 6 lakh were withdrawn by CTG after 1/11, but all those vehicles have now returned. 175 community policemen were deployed by CTG, but they have no reporting to police and are now seen as totally ineffective. DCC has licensed 87,000 rickshaw, but there are 5 lakh rickshaws now in Dhaka with another 1 lakh expected before Eid. As I ditched my transport and walked (something I do every morning now to get to work on time) I kept thinking of traffic. I thought of those vehicles that the CTG boldly banished, which are all now back. Actually, everything is back. Everyone is out. Everyone is well (or sick)? Everyone regrets! Everyone has learnt a lesson! And while a natok plays out on the national stage, I look at gridlocked Dhaka city, and come to this realization: No one is running the country. Weekly Shaptahik wrote after the latest round of bails to politicians: "Special Special Bail and 2 Years of System Loss". System Loss. It sounds like a cruel joke. The CTG is in its last days and all that remains is a human-spirit/life-electricity siphoning system loss? Some hoped against experience that something good would come of all this. Actually many did (more than will admit now). Even AL/BNP grassroots workers were heard saying, the rot at the top will be removed, and we the honest workers will rise in the ranks. But now? All the things that we saw over the last twenty months are all starting revert. Jailing the bigwigs, reforming the parties, creating a Third Force, trying War Criminals, War on Corruption, ending black money, demolishing illegal Rangs Building, separation of judiciary, independence of TV and Radio. Promises made, process started, and back to square one. Another Daily Star columnist called it "round trip ticket from status quo to status quo". An architect friend said to me, "It's as if we took off from an international airport, and now as we are coming back to land, the runway is overgrown with grass and some of the control tower lights have been stolen." Faruk Wasif, one of the dynamic writers on the left, in discussing the community that initially had high hopes for CTG, writes a bitter coda in Prothom Alo: "I bathed in ambrosia/but it turned to poison" An optimist said to me "Listen no one likes spending a year eating jail rice. I think all these people will think twice in the future." Maybe, maybe. Several politicians have already said the last year in jail was a "fire test" and a "learning experience". But what if some take the opposite lesson: that we are the only game in town. Some have achieved a glow after their time in jail, a heroic tint to their face. A civil servant pointed out another dangerous side effect. He feels that in the future no government officer will take the risk of championing any project. If someone is efficient and pushes through a large infrastructure project involving a lot of procurement, they will fear that one day this will be dragged up in a national witch-hunt. But, says honest civil servant, I was an honest officer! The problem is the CTG years have given the distinct feeling that corruption cases can also be arbitrary and politically motivated. Even anti-corruption has become a dirty word. I usually curse our dysfunctional democracy nonstop. But all trump cards have been played and failed. The country is a patient, sliced open on the operating table. But the medicine is killing him. And the longer it stays open, the more infections spread. The gangrene has reached all the way to the head. And let's not even indulge any more force-fit solutions like National Security Council. NSC would be another disastrous experiment. No more of this laboratory testing please. Let's end this experiment and get back to the messy business of political governments. It seems this dysfunctional democracy is all we have, and we have to fix it through democracy. There are no short cuts left. From navayana at gmail.com Thu Sep 18 10:18:57 2008 From: navayana at gmail.com (Navayana Publishing) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 10:18:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] LTTE, Tamil Nationalism and Caste (if not Hinduism) Message-ID: Hi Even as a lurker on this list, I would certainly not like to be seen being supportive of kshemendra, but on LTTE I would just refer all to this piece by Ravikumar in Himal in 2002 (article copied below); LTTE certainly may not be "Hinduistic" in the sense in which hindutva outfits are, but caste certainly plays a crucial role as does Hindu religion in many ways. You may also see the fictional writings of Shobasakthi, esp his *Gorilla*recently translated by Anushiya Sivanarayanan and published by Random House, reviewed here . Anand ps: this article and related debates on caste and Tamil nationalism are now available at http://www.tamilnation.org/forum/aryan/index.htm *'Caste of the Tiger' *by Ravikumar (Translated from Tamil by R Azhagarasan) in HIMAL South Asia, August 2002 and published also in the Sinhala owned Sri Lanka Island of 26 August 2002. "In 1981, the UNP leaders, who shout themselves hoarse about democracy, summoned their military thugs and burnt down the Jaffna library, the biggest library in Southeast Asia. About the same time, caste fanatics in a small village, Ezhudumattuval, near Jaffna, threatened Dalit children at a school, seized their books and notebooks and set them afire."Why did Tamil society choose to condemn one incident and remain silent on the other?" - Dominic Jeeva, Dalit author from Eelam The Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE) chief V Prabakaran's two and half hour press conference on 10 April this year is regarded as a turning point in the ongoing peace initiatives in Sri Lanka. Prominent among the issues raised at the press meet were those concerning Muslims and Estate Tamils (also called Hill-Country Tamils, Tamils of Indian Descent or New Tamils, since a majority came over from India as plantation workers). Responding to these queries, Prabakaran and LTTE ideologue Anton Balasingam said they had invited leaders of these two groups for talks on issues concerning their future and, as expected, an agreement has now been arrived at. However, the press conference was disturbingly silent on the question of Dalit-untouchables who constitute nearly 15 percent of the Tamil population in Eelam. No one saw fit to raise the matter and the Eelam leadership too chose not to dwell on it. The silence of the assembled press corps is understandable. But the reticence of the Tamil leadership is deliberate neglect. A problem that has been awaiting a resolution for decades was simply glossed over as if it did not even exist. The primary reason for this neglect is that contemporary Sri Lanka lacks an energetic Dalit organisation that can exert the necessary social pressure to ensure that the issue gets the prominence it deserves. This current absence of Dalit political leadership is conspicuous in an otherwise forceful history of assertion. In fact, Dalit political consciousness among Sri Lankan Tamils predates the mobilisation of their counterparts in Tamil Nadu. The militant struggle against untouchability by Sri Lankan Dalits gives them the distinction of being among the earliest to wage war against casteism. But over the years the Sri Lankan Dalit movement has lost its organisational drive, and so while the Muslims and the Estate Tamils have ensured that their issues remain prominent on the Eelam agenda, the most oppressed of the Tamils do not evoke even a passing mention from the Jaffna Tamils, who lead the armed separatist struggle. *Roots of violence* It is customary for Tamil nationalists to regard the Jaffna Tamils as role models, particularly because of their `achievements' in the armed struggle. But Eelam and the Jaffna Tamils have an unsavoury tradition that does no credit to their claim to special status. They have produced casteist, chauvinist scholars such as Arumuga Navalar of the early 19th century, who, echoing Manu, the preceptor of the varna system, declared that the parai (Dalit drum), the woman and the panchama (Dalit) are "all born to get beaten". Navalar is just one among a large company of Jaffna Tamils who stoked casteism and helped it take strong roots in the island. The history of caste Hindu atrocities on Dalits is long and shameful. The significant moments in the Dalit struggle for self-respect and upper caste reprisals merit recapitulation if only to demonstrate why this problem will not be easily resolved. Those who celebrate the greatness of the Tamil armed struggle are of course careful to avoid mention of when Jaffna's earliest episodes of armed violence took place and against whom these were directed. Violence began to inform the Tamil landscape as early as 1944 when some caste Hindus gunned down a Dalit as he tried to cremate the body of an old woman of his community at the Villoonri cremation ground in Jaffna. This anti-Dalit violence was to continue sporadically over the years. Thus, it can be said that the culture of armed struggle began in Sri Lanka in the form of attacks on untouchables. However, Eelam's panegyrics to itself and its armed revolution cannot accommodate such uncomfortable facts. In the circumstances, it is not surprising that Dalits in Sri Lanka were forced to form political organisations much earlier than Tamil Nadu Dalits. In fact, they were pioneers in political mobilisation even among Sri Lankan Tamils. Tamil nationalism acquired a real political edge only in the 1940s with the formation of the Tamilar Congress in 1944 and the Tamilarasu Party in 1949. Dalit mobilisation preceded this by a quarter century, with the formation of the Forum for Depressed Class Tamil Labourers in July 1927. The forum launched an agitation for "equality in seating, equality in eating" in 1928 in protest against caste discrimination in schools where Dalit children were forbidden from learning or dining with other children. Two years of sustained struggle resulted in an administrative order that in grant-aided schools low-caste children should be allowed to sit on benches instead of on the floor or outside on the ground. In retaliation, caste Hindu Tamils burnt down 13 schools that implemented the new regulations. And by way of political follow-up, the elite of the Vellala community from Urelu, Vasavilan and Punalakkattavan petitioned the government in 1930 to rescind the equal-seating directive. The next major effort to thwart Dalit rights took place in 1931, when the then British government of Sri Lanka set up the Donoughmore Commission to look into the changes to be introduced in the country's constitution. The commission recommended the introduction of universal adult franchise in Sri Lanka. As a result, the Dalits gained voting rights. Unable to tolerate this development, caste Tamils, headed by prominent leaders like S. Natesan, launched an agitation. They were ready to give up their own voting rights to prevent Dalits from getting theirs. To demonstrate their social power, they went one step further and imposed several new restrictions on Dalits. According to the new draconian strictures: "Untouchable women should not cover their torso and (must) remain half-naked. They should not wear jewels, not use an umbrella, nor use the caste thread in marriages. Their children should not bear the names used by dominant castes. They should not cremate, but bury the dead bodies. They should not use footwear; should not get water from public wells; should not sit in buses; nor send their children to schools". These restrictions were even harsher than the restrictions imposed in the 1930s on Dalits of Tiruchi, Ramanathapuram district in Tamil Nadu by the dominant Kallar, Maravar and Thevar communities. Sri Lankan political parties, including caste Tamil leaders, advanced several reasons to oppose universal franchise. They argued that the extension of voting rights to all would increase corruption; that only landowners are patriotic so voting rights should be restricted to them; that voting rights would be misused by the illiterate and that women should not get involved in politics and hence should not be given the right to vote. However, the Donoughmore Commission stood firm, and Dalits attained voting rights in 1931. Suffrage gave them some political leverage and was a boost to their struggle, as is evident from some of the limited changes that came about in the economic sphere. For instance, S Natesan, who was at the forefront of the opposition to voting rights for untouchables, under compulsion of seeking Dalit votes, had to introduce measures such as the legalisation of the tree tax (mara-vari scheme) in 1936. This helped the Dalits involved in the toddy business gain economic independence from upper caste Tamils. This and other successes stimulated further attempts at forging Dalit political unity for agitational ends. The Conference of Oppressed Tamils in Northern Sri Lanka was organised in August 1943. One of the outcomes of this conference was the formation of the Northern Sri Lankan Minority Tamils Mahasabha. In order to unite Dalits all over Sri Lanka, the Northern Sri Lanka Minority Tamils Mahasabha was renamed the All-Sri Lankan Minority Tamils Mahasabha and its demands were enlarged to include protection for arrack production, improving educational opportunities for untouchables, reservation for untouchables in teacher training and representation for untouchables in the legislature. Meanwhile, the agenda to suppress Dalits was being continuously pursued in the constitutional sphere. Sri Lankan political parties, dissatisfied with the recommendations of the Donoughmore Commission, demanded a new constitution for Sri Lanka. In 1942, these parties asked that the British send a mission to Sri Lanka to initiate the process of writing a new constitution for the country. In response to such pressures, London dispatched a commission to Sri Lanka to elicit the views of the various communities on the proposed new constitution. *Competitive politics* The Commission, headed by Lord Soulbury, conducted its deliberations from December 1944 to April 1945, and held discussions with representatives of various communities. The Minority Tamils Mahasabha decided to submit a separate memorandum to the commission. But the Tamilar Congress Party and its president, GG Ponnambalam, insisted that a separate submission would affect the unified Tamil cause. To decide the issue, the Minority Tamils Mahasabha organised a meeting in Jaffna, to which Ponnambalam was also invited. The Mahasabha made it clear that if the Congress memorandum included issues of Dalit welfare, particularly those concerning education, professional rights and eradication of untouchability, it was ready to give up its plan to submit a separate memorandum. With Ponnambalam rejecting this demand, the Mahasabha was forced to go along with its original plan to submit a separate memorandum. In the hostile climate that prevailed, with the Tamilar Congress and caste Tamils assuming a threatening attitude, the Dalit leadership was forced to smuggle members of the Soulbury Commission to their villages in order to show them the wretched conditions of living. But all this was of no consequence, since the caste Hindu sentiment prevailed and the welfare of Dalits found no place in the newly drafted constitution. Instead the `unified Tamil' cause found safeguards in the `Soulbury Constitution', which proscribed any legislation that would affect a community or religion. This constitution was in force till 1972, when it was redrafted. Ironically, the constitution that caste Hindu Tamils believed would safeguard their interests exclusively, to the detriment of the Dalits, was later to pave the way for their own marginalisation, as Sinhala chauvinism rode roughshod over the clauses designed to protect minority rights. As recommended by the Soulbury Commission, elections were held in 1947 in which the United National Party (UNP) and the Tamilar Congress were the main contenders. The third force was constituted of the left, represented primarily by the breakaway factions of the sole pre-war left party - the Lanka Samasamaja Party (LSSP). One faction of the LSSP set up the Sri Lankan Communist Party in 1943. When M Karthikeyan introduced this party to the Jaffna Tamils, a large number of Dalits joined it. Dalit writers like Daniel, Dominic Jeeva, ML Subramaniam, and K Pasupathi were part of this group. Though they joined the communist party, they continued their work with the Minority Tamils Mahasabha, with which they had been associated in the past. As political consciousness among the Dalits evolved, two trends emerged within the Minority Tamils Mahasabha. Some accepted the communist ideology while others were content with agitating for small privileges. On the electoral strategy, there was unanimity of opinion that they should not vote for the Tamilar Congress, which had not only actively campaigned against the inclusion of Dalit rights in the Soulbury constitution but had also failed to nominate Dalit candidates in the election. There was however a difference of opinion between the moderates and others on whether they should vote for the UNP or the left parties. The majority of the Minority Tamils Mahasabha campaigned for the UNP, which had appointed a Dalit to the senate. The UNP programme was more pro-Dalit" than that of the Tamilar Congress. The UNP campaigned against untouchability, announced several schemes for Dalit welfare and promised to nominate a Dalit member to the assembly. For many moderate Dalits, these assurances were aufficient ground for supporting the UNP. In contrast to the stand taken by the Tamilar Congress, the Tamilarasu party, which first raised the slogan of Tamil `right to self-determination', initially embarked on a policy of Dalit accommodation. The Tamilarasu decided to take Tamil nationalism beyond Jaffna and unite Tamils from all the areas, focusing on the racist attitude of the Sinhala government. As a Tamil nationalist party it was forced by the presence of independent-minded Dalit political organisations to address the problem of untouchability and casteism, at least nominally. The Tamilarasu included `abolition of untouchability' as one of its resolutions at the party's fifth conference held in July 1957. The accommodationist compulsions of an inclusive nationalism are evident in Tamilarasu leader Thanthai Selva's speech at the time of the party's founding: "If we want to qualify ourselves to win, we have to eradicate the evils in society and purify it. Among the Tamils, there are untouchables. They think they are oppressed by others. Ethically speaking, if we do harm to others, someone will do the same to us. If Tamils want to attain liberation, they must give the same to those who are deprived of their rights in our society". The promises and resolutions however, did not add up to much in real terms. The Tamilarasu did not make any effort to implement them in their parliamentary programme. Meanwhile, developments in the larger Sri Lankan polity were to have adverse consequences for both upper caste Tamils and Dalits. This was particularly the case with the government's chauvinist Sinhala Only Act of 1956, which deprived all Tamils of their fundamental rights. Despite such openly discriminatory developments, the communist party continued to support the UNP and since by now the communists dominated the Minority Tamils Mahasabha, many Dalit leaders had no option but to join Tamilarasu. A new organisation, the Minority Tamils United Front was formed with the support of the Tamilarasu party. *Tea and temples* In order to consolidate its support among the Dalits, the Tamilarasu pushed for the introduction of the Prevention of Social Disabilities Act in April 1957. This act treated caste-based discrimination in public places as a crime but imposed a fine of `not more than SLR 100' and a jail term of six months for perpetrators of such crimes. Just how lightly the problem of untouchability was taken is evident from a comparison with the situation that obtained in Tamil Nadu in the 1930s. Raobahadur `Rettaimalai' Seenivasan (a Tamil Dalit leader who attended the Round Table Conference with BR Ambedkar) says in his autobiography that a fine of INR 100 was imposed on those who prevented untouchables from using public wells, ponds and the market. In 27 years the real value of the rupee had declined, but there obviously was very little change in the legal attitude to untouchability. In the interest of condign punishment, if nothing else the depreciation of the currency could have been factored into punitive fines. With such weak protective laws to help them survive with dignity, Dalits had to increasingly address their own social issues through direct action to force political parties to heed their plight. In October 1958, the Minority Tamils Mahasabha gave a call for a "teashop entry movement". The Mahasabha delivered an ultimatum demanding that teashops should begin admitting Dalits before 13 December, failing which they would agitate in front of the offending establishments. This movement put pressure on the Tamilarasu Party, which responded by announcing an "annihilation of untouchability week" from 24 November. The party, keen to prevent the division of its Tamil base, initiated a dialogue with the teashop owners in Jaffna. As a result, two teashops run by non-Tamil south Indians admitted untouchables. Others soon followed suit. It is a singular irony of Sri Lankan politics that Dalits attained the right to vote in 1931, but had to struggle for another 27 years before they could drink tea in public with dignity. But though teashop doors had opened, school gates remained shut. It was only through the efforts of the Communist Party leader Pon Kandaiah that 15 schools for the children of the Dalit community were opened. Competitive politics involving the communist and the Tamilarasu parties, in the context of organised Dalit activity, was clearly a determining factor in securing some limited policy gains. Changes in the nature of competitive politics were to have adverse consequences for the Dalits. This is most clearly evident from the developments in the aftermath of the split in the Communist Party in 1964 and the subsequent participation of Tamilarasu in the UNP-led government in 1965. As part of its constituency building, N Shanmugathasan's communist party led the popular temple-entry movements, apart from launching agitations to seize untitled lands and access water from public wells. Newspapers almost daily carried stories about Dalit agitation - among others, the burning of Kandasamy temple chariot in April 1968 and the riots that took place during the staging of the play Kandan Karunai in June 1969. In response, Tamilarasu, the Tamil nationalist party, strongly criticised this agitation. The Tamilarasu leadership had become concentrated in the hands of a Colombo-based group with representatives from the dominant communities in Jaffna. The political resolutions of the party were drafted in accordance with the interests of the dominant caste of Jaffna, the Vellalas. By the 1970s, Sri Lankan politics had taken a turn for the worse, acquiring an increasingly ethnic character, as the politics of Sinhala-Tamil accommodation began giving way to conflict. Tamil nationalism intensified in response to the continuous Sinhala racist policies. The Tamilarasu, having compromised itself by participating in the government, began to lose its base among Tamils. The major racist attack of 1983 opened a new trend in the country's politics, particularly Tamil politics. While Sinhala politics continued to be competitive, Tamil politics became the monopoly of a nationalism that subsumed every other division within society in the interest of an overarching unity that refused to admit intra-ethnic differences. *Caste and the Tiger* The rise of armed struggle after 1983 and the consequent fall of democratic movements became a major hurdle in the way of an independent Dalit movement. Since nationalism could not concede even the slightest hint of an inner contradiction, writers who continuously focused on the problem of `panchamars' were dubbed enemies of the Tamil nation. The Tamil national liberation movement suppressed the voice of the Dalits. The discrimination that followed from Sinhala majoritarianism in education and employment largely affected caste Tamils. But the ethnic conflict drew Dalits into the circle of violence. As the conflict heightened, well-to-do caste Tamils fled to foreign lands, but Dalits who lacked the resources to follow suit remained in Eelam, and consequently were recruited into the armed struggle. This trend intensified in the 1990s and today the majority of LTTE cadres happen to be Dalit. The increased participation of Dalits and women in the armed struggle had the paradoxical effect of loosening some of the more rigid strictures of Hindu society that are incompatible with the flexibility required by armed combat. But this did not lead to Dalit issues being addressed in any formal or concrete sense. The changes that have taken place are merely pragmatic adaptations dictated by necessity. Even so, caste Tamils, who see themselves as the sole representatives of all Tamils, are uncomfortable with this new state of affairs since they fear that the rigid rules of subordination will be permanently breached. As if to reinforce the orthodoxy, while limited social change has been taking place in the Lankan Tamil homeland, emigre caste Tamils have reinforced caste distinctions in their adopted countries. Clearly, migration to foreign lands has not mitigated the effects of caste; caste feelings remain strong and there is little reason to believe that the pragmatic concessions that the Tamil society in the home country has made in conditions of war will last when and if peace arrives. Hence, it is important to ask whether the (interim) government that will be formed after the peace initiatives will address the problems of the Dalits. Dalits have played a crucial role in the powerful struggle that forced the Sinhala government to negotiate, but it is increasingly looking like the LTTE will abandon the Dalits when there is no longer any need for their services. Caste Tamils in Eelam could well give vent to their caste feelings once the climate of fear is dispelled. To avoid such a situation, the Dalits need to procure some assurances. The details of the LTTE's understanding with the Estate Tamils and Muslims are not very clear. Yet, the concessions that the latter have managed to extract over the last two decades is instructive at least as a modular specimen to be imitated. On 21 April 1988 an agreement, based on talks held in Madras on 15, 16 and 19 April 1988, was reached between the leaders of Muslim United Front and the Tigers. The 18-point agreement, signed by Kittu alias Sadasivam Krishnakumar for the Tigers and MIM Moheedin for the Muslim United Front, recognised the cultural and social distinctness of the Muslims and provided constitutional safeguards to them. 33 percent of the population in the eastern territory is Muslim and the figure is 18 percent for the northeast. Hence, the agreement stated that not less than 30 percent of state assembly seats should be given to them, besides giving them an unspecified representation in the ministry. Based on the percentage of Muslims living in each district in the northeast, proportional reservation would be given to them in jobs in the public sector. It was also agreed that an Islamic university would be started with special educational facilities. The chief ministership of the northeastern province would rotate between Muslims and `others'. Such an agreement is important for the Dalits. A similar agreement could now be chalked out to provide education, jobs and land to the Dalits. The demands made in the resolutions of the Minority Tamils Mahasabha and the plan of action put forth in the movements for eradication of untouchability (by the communists in the 1960s) should also be taken into account in such an agreement. If the future is to be insured against social conflict, the Tigers will have to come forward unilaterally to provide a solution to the Dalit problem. The current absence of a Dalit movement is no indication that there will not be one in future. The long war has paved the way for change, and the long negotiation for peace has forced on the LTTE many unprecedented changes in their policy. This new found flexibility can be the basis for a long-term vision to secure genuine democracy. And that can happen only when the problems of the most oppressed are substantially addressed. This is the primary duty of a democratic dispensation and to fulfil that the Tiger must lose its caste. On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 12:48 PM, Radhakrishnan wrote: > One is rather amused at the "scholarly" attempts in the production of > multiple truths. > > Bhagat Singh was branded as a terrorist by the British colonial, alien > government and not by the government of an independent nation. Similarly > Nelson Mandela was branded as a terrorist by a minority white government in > South Africa. Kindly don't drag and demean the contibution of Bhagat Singh > by invoking such twisted logic. > > Finally thanks to Simran for enlightening folks about LTTE, its ethnic > affiliation and non-religious orientation. Defining the LTTE as Hindu terror > outfit runs in consonance to popular myth that Tamils worship Ravana - the > villian of Ramayan, notwithstanding the fact that it was a battle between a > Kshatriya and a Brahmin. > > Radhakrishnan > > > On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 reader-list-request at sarai.net wrote : > >Send reader-list mailing list submissions to > > reader-list at sarai.net > > > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > >You can reach the person managing the list at > > reader-list-owner at sarai.net > > > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > >than "Re: Contents of reader-list digest..." > > > > > >Today's Topics: > > > > 1. [Announcements] green unplugged Festival (Monica Narula) > > 2. Caste and Landlessness in Kerala: Signals from Chengara : KT > > Rammohan (Anivar Aravind) > > 3. Re: Some Points from discussions (Rahul Asthana) > > 4. Re: after yesterday in Delhi (simran chadha) > > > > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >Message: 1 > >Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 21:48:40 +0530 > > From: Monica Narula > >Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] green unplugged Festival > >To: announcements at sarai.net > >Message-ID: <9B319812-B8E7-42CE-AE39-1E3CCC764B6A at sarai.net> > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > >FYI > >--------------------------------------- > > > >green unplugged > >Share your vision, your spirit, your film. > >Reach audiences across borders with your voice, your consciousness. > > > >ABOUT FESTIVAL : > > > >Culture Unplugged Studios will be launching 'Green Unplugged' - the > >festival where we unite to share our voices, not only as film-makers > >but culture-makers. The festival will facilitate contemplation, > >connection & celebration of life, culture & nature through cinema. We > >invite your green & socially conscious films that bring to light > >nature's demand to wake us to our future - an integrated individual > >and the human society. Share stories that reveal where we come from, > >our collective journey leading to our present and contemplating the > >path beyond. > > > >With this, Culture Unplugged wishes to create a global community of > >conscious creatives and their audiences, to reflect on issues and > >life experiences in contemporary world â€" creatives/storytellers > >wishing to express and exchange primarily through language of film > >(visual/aural communication), framing the spirit in motion. > > > > > >FESTIVAL DATE : 2008-2009 > > > >FESTIVAL PARTNERS : > >Barrie Osborne (Producer, New Zealand, 7 times - Oscar winner) > >Michael Pyser (Producer, USA, Several Oscar Nomination) > >Shekhar Kapoor (Film-maker/Director, India, Oscar Nominated 2007) > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >-------------------------- > >Last date for receiving of the film 1st week of Novemeber, 2008 > > > >If you participate in the festival, you will be contacted shortly > >prior to the launch of this festival. Post festival, we will be > >launching a permanent venue with the film archive with intention to > >promote transformative films and its film-makers on global level. > >With this venue we intend to create an open & transparent system for > >film-makers and facilitate dialogue among them, their audiences and > >other professionals to fertilize social consciousness. > > > >For participation kindly fill the online form and send us the film/ > >DVD . Multiple entries are welcome. Fill the individual form for each > >film. > > > >To submit the form, please visit: www.cultureunplugged.com/submit/ > >call.html > > > >Monica Narula > >Raqs > >Sarai-CSDS > >29 Rajpur Road > >Delhi 110 054 > >www.raqsmediacollective.net > >www.sarai.net > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >announcements mailing list > >announcements at sarai.net > >https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements > > > >------------------------------ > > > >Message: 2 > >Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 10:47:43 +0530 > > From: "Anivar Aravind" > >Subject: [Reader-list] Caste and Landlessness in Kerala: Signals from > > Chengara : KT Rammohan > >To: Greenyouth , "Reader List" > > > >Message-ID: > > <35f96d470809162217n5910bb3bxc91e89c54440140b at mail.gmail.com> > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > > > >From current EPW issue > > > >Caste and Landlessness in Kerala: Signals from Chengara > > K T Rammohan > > > >The persistence of colonial patterns of ownership of plantations in > >Kerala remains one of the enduring weaknesses of the land reforms > >programme of the 1970s in the state. The case of Chengara's landless > >dalits underlines the necessity to address the issue of land reforms > >once again. > >Read the full article > >http://www.epw.in/uploads/articles/12642.pdf > > > >Anivar > > > > > >------------------------------ > > > >Message: 3 > >Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 22:21:16 -0700 (PDT) > > From: Rahul Asthana > >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions > >To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, sarai list , > Vivek > > Narayanan > >Message-ID: <792548.85529.qm at web53602.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > > >How about a Hong Kong like solution,with autonomy in all areas except > defense and foreign affairs? IK can stay with India and PK with Pak,for the > purpose of defense and foreign affairs.IK and PK can have a fluid border > with each other,but India and Pak can apply their immigration policy on the > border of Kashmir with the rest of the country.The situation can be reviewed > by India , Pak and Kashmir after 5 years. > > > >--- On Tue, 9/16/08, Vivek Narayanan wrote: > > > > > From: Vivek Narayanan > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Some Points from discussions > > > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com, "sarai list" > > > Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 7:55 PM > > > I did not say you wrote that Kshmendra, I said that I was > > > given to > > > understand it that way from what you were saying. Hence, > > > the question > > > mark in my note below. Perhaps you are being a little too > > > intelligently > > > vague. In any case, if you do think there are possibilities > > > here beyond > > > the nation state, including beyond occupation by and > > > assertion and > > > domination of the Indian nation state, I'd be very glad > > > to hear of them. > > > > > > Kshmendra Kaul wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Vivek > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Either I did not know what I was writing or you chose > > > not understand. > > > > Either way that is unfortunate. You would not want > > > that happening with > > > > you. Would you? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Where in this particular thread have I mentioned or > > > suggested that : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > """" any possible > > > "post-national" solution to the question of > > > Kashmir > > > > is hogwash, > > > > dreamy, silly, > > > unthinkable""""" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Once you answer that, I could (perhaps tomorrow) > > > address rest of what > > > > you have written. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > > > header. > > > To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------ > > > >Message: 4 > >Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 12:15:07 +0530 (IST) > > From: simran chadha > >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi > >To: Partha Dasgupta > >Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > >Message-ID: <533939.66567.qm at web8705.mail.in.yahoo.com> > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > >Hey Partha and Kshmendra! > > > >was just curious as to how you called the LTTE a Hindu organisation and > later ofcourse corrected it by referred to the strong christian elements. > Sorry, but religion has never played a determining role in the LTTE and > certainly not Hinduism. The Kovils may have been used as hiding places, > incidentally, or even for visting on festive occasions or distribution of > prasad - its a guerilla warfare after all so the terraine is as much a part > of the mise-en-scene; but never never was religion co-mingled with the > carrying out of a terrorist act. Rather the complete absence of God and > religion is what makes the LTTE so different from any other terrorist > outfit, in south asia or japan or ireland. Check out their marching song! or > the matyrs day celebration - no recourse to any higher form of authority > than the human. > >yes, charles anthony - prabhakaran's son, who heads the LTTE airforce > bears a christian name but no belssing of any saint are sort before or > after. > >my question still remains and i would be glad to be informed, where did u > get the religious connection from - the manifesto, the documents by the > Balasingham's where? > >simran > > > >--- On Tue, 16/9/08, Partha Dasgupta wrote: > > > > From: Partha Dasgupta > >Subject: Re: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi > >To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > >Cc: Date: Tuesday, 16 September, 2008, 6:25 PM > > > >Dear Kshmendra, > >The questions you have asked about 'what is terror', etc is something I > >would not like to elaborate on as each has his/her own interpretation. > > > >Bhagat Singh is a freedom fighter as far as we Indians are concerned, but > >for the govt of the day he was a terrorist. There is no 'standard' > >definition of what a terrorist is and each person / entity would translate > >the word in their own way. > > > >As for defining LTTE as Hindu terrorists - guess that question is wide > open > >depending upon what we use as the pointer. If the primary factor is what > >religion / group do they belong to, then we'd have a ready answer. > > > >If, however, we look beyond and try to identify the aim / purpose behind > the > >conflict, there'd be another answer all together - some of them not very > >clear. > > > >Even if a 'terrorist' follows a ideology/religion/place/societal group > >- > >that's a personal root that s/he has. It does not follow that all people > of > >the ideology/religion/place/societal group follow the same radical > >conclusion. > > > >Guess we could go on and on - fact is that we'll all equate the phrase > >'terrorist' from our personal point of view and experiences. > > > >Apologies for sounding vague, but you started a line of thought that I'd > >never really looked at before. > > > >Rgds, Partha > >................................. > > > >On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 5:07 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > >wrote: > > > > > Dear Partha > > > > > > My questioning of the LTTE being called Hindu was to help me in my > > > discussions with my own self. > > > > > > I am still struggling in my mind over 'what is terror'; 'who > >is a > > > terrorist'; 'when should an organisation (or a system) be called a > >terrorist > > > one' and 'when should an act of terror, or a terrorist, or a > >terrorist > > > organisation be identified with an ideology/religion/place/societal > >group'. > > > > > > There is total agreement with your words: > > > > > > """""" The terrorist may belong to any > >religion or caste or place or > > > whatever - however, lumping all the people of that religion or caste or > > > place as terrorists because one or some people from that group > performed > > > 'acts of terrorism' is not > >justifiable.""""""" > > > > > > Kshmendra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On *Tue, 9/16/08, Partha Dasgupta * wrote: > > > > > > From: Partha Dasgupta > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi > > > To: kshmendra2005 at yahoo.com > > > Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 9:37 AM > > > > > > > > > Dear Kshmendra, > > > Studied in Baroda / Vadodra and saw communal rights flare up on > > > the weirdest of reasons. Have seen a close friend who wouldn't kill > > > cockroaches try to burn a bus in the frenzy of a mob. > > > > > > As for defining the LTTE as Hindu - my point is different, and is > >something > > > I have mentioned earlier. The terrorist may belong to any religion or > >caste > > > or place or whatever - however, lumping all the people of that religion > or > > > caste or place as terrorists because one or some people from that group > > > performed 'acts of terrorism' is not justifiable. > > > > > > In short, am against the mass generalization wherein we identify an > entire > > > group a 'terrorists'. > > > > > > To put it the other way around, am a Hindu, but do not identify with > the > > > demolition of the Babri Masjid or the attacks on Christians that is > > > happening. Just a personal belief, but if any person is converting to > > > another faith for benefits accrued then obviously his faith wasn't > >strong in > > > the first place & s/he won't be much of a loss. > > > > > > Rgds, Partha > > > ....................................... > > > > > > On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 7:17 PM, Kshmendra Kaul > >wrote: > > > > > >> Dear Partha > > >> > > >> Do not mean to butt in. > > >> > > >> Just wondering whether any 'acts of terrorrising' by the LTTE > >can be > > >> designated as 'acts of terrorising' by Hindus. > > >> > > >> Would it not be more apt to link 'acts of terror' with a > >religious > > >> identity when such 'acts of terror' are carried out in the > >name a particular > > >> religion or are solely based on the religious identity? > > >> > > >> There are many instances of 'acts of terror by Hindus' which > >can be so > > >> designated because they are carried out in the name of Hinduism or are > > >> solely based upon and connected to the Hindu identity of the > >perpetrators. > > >> > > >> Just wondering. > > >> > > >> Kshmendra > > >> > > >> --- On Sun, 9/14/08, Partha Dasgupta < > > >> partha.dasgupta at eliteinfomachine.com> wrote: > > >> > > >> From: Partha Dasgupta > > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi > > >> To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > >> Cc: reader-list at sarai.net > > >> Date: Sunday, September 14, 2008, 4:28 PM > > >> > > >> Dear Radhika Rajen, > > >> > > >> In may mails on this list you have pointed out how the elected > > >> representative is only a beneficiary divided caste votes and not a > >true > > >> representative. > > >> > > >> Now you jump to another point altogether and talk about the UPA > > >> chairperson > > >> and the eloctorate. > > >> > > >> Please stick to a viewpoint as it is hard to trace what your > >viewpoint > > >> is. > > >> If you have changed your viewpoint, then please denote so. > > >> > > >> In any case, saw the killings (directly and first hand in Delhi) > >during > > >> the > > >> Sikh militancy days and have seen communal riots in Baroda, Gujarat; > >and > > >> all > > >> I can say is that when herd mentality takes over the common sense is > >lost. > > >> > > >> Also, from Babri Masjid to the incapable idiots who got blown up some > >time > > >> back, we have seen Hindu militancy. > > >> > > >> Either we can agree that militancy in all forms is wrong or we can > >quibble > > >> about shades of right or wrong. > > >> > > >> So, where do you stand: > > >> > > >> a) Militancy & armed conflict is wrong > > >> > > >> OR > > >> > > >> b) Hindu's are allowed to have a conflict as they have been > >repressed as > > >> a > > >> majority > > >> and that cases like Godhra, Sikh killings in Delhi and Babri > >Masjid > > >> are justified. > > >> > > >> Rgds, Partha > > >> > > >> PS: I do note that when you talk of terror, you never refer to the > >LTTE > > >> (Hindu & Indian) which is considered as one of the most dangerous > > >> terrorist > > >> organisations and has killed a Prime Minister of India (and is not > >Muslim > > >> or > > >> Christian) or the killing of Indira Gandi - or is it that since they > >were > > >> not BJP/RSS that you do not consider them a loss? > > >> ..................................................... > > >> > > >> On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 4:05 PM, wrote: > > >> > > >> > Without getting in to blame games, the need of the moment is the > > >> > chairperson of UPA who is now proxy governor of the nation should > >have > > >> good > > >> > introspection of the events and see if her Home Minister who was > >once > > >> > speaker, but discarded by the electorate, got into rajya sabha by > > >> nomination > > >> > and then is the Home minister, is he capable of any action. A > >dummy > > >> like > > >> > Prime minister, again diitto to the governance who has no > >incentive to > > >> > perform as Prime minister being discard beaucrat, has been of > >yester > > >> years, > > >> > can not make up his mind to take tough action for fear of > >votebank > > >> getting > > >> > "hurt". By this inaction, in actual practise muslims > >are getting > > >> branded as > > >> > terrorists for the simple reason, they are not willing to be > >ready to > > >> > identify, isolate and give up those who indulge in terror > >activities. It > > >> is > > >> > sad scene indeed. Wheras the hindus do not want violence and > >bhajrang > > >> dal > > >> > gets no sympathy for its acts of violence, muslims by floating > >NGOs to > > >> > defend the accused are helping the ter > > >> > ror accused, sheltoring the accused for plain and simple lots of > >money > > >> in > > >> > the trade of defending the terror. > > >> > > > >> > regards. > > >> > > > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > > >> > From: Priya Sen > > >> > Date: Sunday, September 14, 2008 3:18 pm > > >> > Subject: [Reader-list] after yesterday in Delhi > > >> > To: reader-list at sarai.net > > >> > > > >> > > Dear All, > > >> > > > > >> > > India Gate, September 13th, 6:20 or so in the evening. I had > > >> > > decided to walk > > >> > > from Triveni Academy towards Khan Market, determined to buy > >a > > >> > > bicycle and > > >> > > thinking, it's getting dark and maybe I should wait > >until Monday > > >> > > and I > > >> > > shouldn't tell my mother about my biking plans and even > >though I > > >> > > plan to > > >> > > ride early mornings I need to ride it back home now and so > >on and > > >> > > so forth. > > >> > > India Gate was as India Gate is on a weekend evening. > >Walking > > >> > > through it > > >> > > made me think of other times I had been there, a few > >specific > > >> > > memories and a > > >> > > general sense of being in Delhi - of familiarity and ease > > from > > >> > > having been > > >> > > here for as long as I have, and of curiousity, the kind that > >comes > > >> > > fromknowing that places are never the same - making mental > >notes > > >> > > for no one > > >> > > really about the Kwality Walls ice cream cart that had a > >board > > >> > > saying 'Old > > >> > > Vendor, India Gate since 1956', and the astrologer who > >sits in > > >> the > > >> > > sameplace always, and people with video cameras filming the > >gate > > >> > > who always make > > >> > > me wonder at what they think when they play it back later. > >It > > >> > > took 15 > > >> > > minutes to cross over to Shah Jahan Road. Me, a couple of > >young > > >> > > men, and a > > >> > > papad seller who the policeman who was also waiting for the > >lights to > > >> > > change, generally swore at, and I laughed at how swearing is > >so > > >> > > integral to > > >> > > ones day in Delhi. > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > Later I heard there were a couple of bombs that were > >defused, one > > >> > > at Regal > > >> > > Cinema and one at India Gate. I realized how many stories > >there > > >> > > are now. Of > > >> > > yesterday. Of where we were when.. . Of places we know so > >well. Of > > >> > > our lives > > >> > > up until the moment life changed for so many people in our > >city. > > >> > > Of the > > >> > > things that make our days what they are and will continue > >to. > > >> > > Everyone will > > >> > > have a story because everyone needs to claim something from > > >> > > moments like > > >> > > these. And everyone (in this city) must because this moment > >was > > >> > > about Delhi. > > >> > > It's happened before. Here, in other places, it will > >happen again > > >> > > and again > > >> > > and these will be 'the times according to people who > >live in > > >> these > > >> > > times'.And all we can really do is to embrace our lives > >a little > > >> > > harder. > > >> > > > > >> > > The last time I mourned for this city, a little like this, > >is when > > >> > > I watched > > >> > > Nanglamachi being demolished and people gathering their > >lives into > > >> > > bundlesand tempos and going wherever. The ruthlessness was > > >> > > overwhelming. Not to > > >> > > make analogies here. Although nothing wrong with analogies > >and > > >> > > other things > > >> > > that make us feel what we feel. No rules for that! Think, > >feel > > >> > > whatever - > > >> > > it's all part of the way we make sense of things on day > >2. It was > > >> like > > >> > > watching the news right after the blasts happened, when the > > >> > > reporters were > > >> > > as bewildered as everyone else. Somehow in their floundering > >the news > > >> > > channels were credible for a moment. Before the information > > >> > > started coming > > >> > > in and before they started interpreting it, that is. We know > >what > > >> > > they do > > >> > > and do well. Nothing is surprising, just a bit defeating and > >then > > >> > > you think > > >> > > why. Maybe we're defeated by the way we think, are told > >to think, > > >> > > don'tthink. Maybe sometimes it has nothing to do with > >how we > > >> live. > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > Delhi feels quiet today, but that's also from where I > >am. Also > > >> > > it's Sunday. > > >> > > It will probably not seem very different when I go out later > >in the > > >> > > afternoon. But my sister called me this morning and was in > >tears > > >> > > and saying > > >> > > she couldn't sleep because of all this and is feeling > >restless > > >> > > because lakhs > > >> > > of people are going to be out on the streets today for > >Ganapati > > >> > > visarjan in > > >> > > Bombay. For her it's about Bombay as well, the place > >where she > > >> has > > >> > > her life. > > >> > > When public places become vulnerable it means having to make > > >> > > decisions about > > >> > > things one doesn't necessarily think about. It's > >about > > >> everything > > >> > > outside of > > >> > > us that is essential to how we construct our lives. It's > >about > > >> > > everydaydecisions, small things, immediate concerns. About > >being > > >> > > able to imagine, > > >> > > and dream and lose ourselves in places. For a few days we > >will be > > >> > > excruciatingly aware of how we move around the city. There > >will be > > >> > > remorseand anxiety and conversation. We will share a common > >grief, > > >> > > in degrees, and > > >> > > it will bring us together more intensely. We will count and > >blame and > > >> > > speculate. And then we will thankfully, move on. > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > Right now though, I would rather not. Not for today. I just > >want > > >> > > to be with > > >> > > what this city means to me. Aside from its symbols, its > >creation > > >> > > of itself, > > >> > > its skewed power dynamics and unbearable inequalities. A > >friend > > >> > > and I are > > >> > > convinced that "Delhi steps in when we really need > >something > > >> to.". > > >> > > Like the > > >> > > wisdom of places. Not to get melodramatic! I'm glad I > >was here > > >> > > when this > > >> > > happened and not somewhere else. > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > Regards, > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > Priya > > >> > > > > >> > > -- > > >> > > Priya Sen > > >> > > Sarai-CSDS > > >> > > 29, Rajpur Road, Civil Lines > > >> > > Delhi - 110054 > > >> > > priya at sarai.net > > >> > > _________________________________________ > > >> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> > > Critiques & Collaborations > > >> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > >with > > >> > > subscribe in the subject header. > > >> > > To unsubscribe: > >https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > >> > > list > > >> > > List archive: > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > _________________________________________ > > >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> > Critiques & Collaborations > > >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >> > subscribe in the subject header. > > >> > To unsubscribe: > >https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> > List archive: > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> Partha Dasgupta > > >> +919811047132 > > >> _________________________________________ > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >> subscribe in > > >> the subject header. > > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> List archive: > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> _________________________________________ > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > >> List archive: > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Partha Dasgupta > > > +919811047132 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >-- > >Partha Dasgupta > >+919811047132 > >_________________________________________ > >reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >Critiques & Collaborations > >To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in > >the subject header. > >To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >List archive: > > > > > > Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or yourname at rocketmail.com. > Click here http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address > > > >------------------------------ > > > >_______________________________________________ > >reader-list mailing list > >reader-list at sarai.net > >https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > >End of reader-list Digest, Vol 62, Issue 101 > >******************************************** > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Navayana Publishing M-110 (First Floor) Saket New Delhi--110017 Ph: +91 9971433117 Registered address: Navayana Publishing 54, I Floor Savarirayalu Stree Pondicherry 605001 Ph: 91-413-2223337 Mobile: 91-94430-33305 www.navayana.org Join Navayana Book Club and avail free books and special discounts! http://www.navayana.org/display.php?id=5 From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Thu Sep 18 13:46:33 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 13:16:33 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] The updated list of killings by the firing of armedforces In-Reply-To: <921672.85527.qm@web31813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <921672.85527.qm@web31813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Khurram, your post makes me wonder, whether the protesters who claim to be peaceful, holding sticks, guns and resort to arson and riot should be garlanded. ? And also factional rivalry within hurriyath and the love for hate and passion for blood of these freedom fighters have clearly shown that they can indulge in killing each other during the mass protests to eliminate their rivals.! Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Khurram Parvez Date: Thursday, September 18, 2008 12:38 pm Subject: [Reader-list] The updated list of killings by the firing of armedforces To: SARAI > KILLINGS IN JAMMU DURING Amarnath Sangharsh Samiti Protests >   > > > > > > S.NO > > > NAME > > > PARENTAGE > > > DATE > > > ADDRESS/PLACE OF KILLING > > > > 1. > > > Sunny Padha (30) > > > Khemraj Padha > > > August 4-2008 > > > Samba > > > 2. > > Sanjeev Singh (24) > > Chanchal Singh > > August 4-2008 > > Samba  >   > > > >   >   >   >   >   > KILLINGS DURING 2008 PRO-FREEDOM PROTESTS >   > > > > > > S.NO > > > NAME > > > PARENTAGE > > > DATE > > > ADDRESS/PLACE OF KILLING > > > > >   > > Feroz Ahmad Rah, (35) > (Conductor) > > > Late.Ghulam.Hassan Rah > > > June 23,2008 > > Jogiwan, Botakadal > Killed at Nowhatta > > > >   > > Farooq Ahmad Rather > (Student) > >   > > June 25,2008 > > Mazhama, Magam > > > >   > > Sameer Ahmad, (24), Driver > >   > > June 25,2008 > > Tashwan Chowk Fatehkadal > Killed at Nawakadal > > > >   > > Imtiyaz Ahmad, (19) > >   > > June 28,2008 > > Firdous colony Bemina > > > >   > > Abdul Gani Sheikh, (75) > > Abdul Samad Sheikh > > July 1,2008 > > Ganie Mohalla Budgam > > > >   > > Feroz Ahmad Khan > (Coppersmith) > > Mehraj-ud-din > > June 24, 2008(succumbed on July 5, 2008) > > Taeng-pora, Nawab Bazaar > Killed at Basant Bagh > > > >   > > Asif Mehraj (16) > > Mehraj-ud-Din > > August 4,2008 > > Maisuma > > > >   > > Sheikh Abdul Aziz (Senior Hurriyat Conference Leader) > > Pampore > > August 11,2008 > > Killed at Uri > > > >   > > Manzoor Ahmad Akhoon > > Haji Abdul Shaban > > August 11,2008 > > Khanpora Baramulla > Killed at Uri > > > >   > > Abdul Hamid Bhat > > Dr. Abdul Qayoom > > August 11,2008 > > Kanlibagh, Baramulla > Killed at Uri > > > >   > > Ishfaq Ahmad > > Ghulam Muhammad > > August 11,2008 > > Qamarwari. > > > >   > > Mehboob Hussain Deewani > > Khursheed Ahmad > > August 11,2008 > > Bilal Colony, Bemina (killed at Parimpora) > > > >   > > Tahir Nazir Lone > > Nazir Ahmad > > August 11,2008 > > Thenam Kreeri, Pattan > Killed at Sangrama > > > >   > > Irfan Ahmad War > > Bashir Ahmad > > August 11,2008 > > Krashun Sopore > Killed at Uri > > > >   > > Abid Mustafa Sheikh (18) > > Ghulam Mustafa Sheikh > > August 12,2008 > > Lasjan > > > >   > > Kamraan Sheikh > >   > > August 12, 2008 > > Bemina > > > >   > > Imtiyaz Ahmad Bhat (19) > > Abdul Gani > > August 12,2008 > > Lasjan > > > >   > > Hasina Begum > > W/O: Bashir Ahmad Mir > > August 12,2008 > > Lasjan > > > >   > > Jabeena Begum > >   > > August 12,2008 > > Lasjan > > > >   > > Imran Qayoom Wani (25) > > Abdul Qayoom > > August 12,2008 > > Bagh-e-Mehtab > Killed at Bagh-e-Mehtab > > > >   > > Owais Majeed > > Abdul Majeed > > August 12,2008 > > Rainawari > Killed at Rainawari > > > >   > > Javaid Ahmad Mir > Cameraman of a local news channel, 9TV > > Ghulam Ahmad > > August 12,2008 > > Beighpora, Baghi-Mehtab > Killed at Baghi-Mehtab > > > >   > > Mumtaz Ahmed Bhat > > Mohammad Afzal > > August 12,2008 > > Aloosa Bandipora > Killed at 15 RR camp Paribal Bandipora > > > >   > > Ali Muhammad Khanday > > Ghulam Mohammad > > August 12,2008 > > Aloosa gath > Killed at 15 RR camp Paribal Bandipora > > > >   > > Muhammad Shafi Ganai > > Abdul Aziz > > August 12,2008 > > Ganai Mohalla Aloosa > Killed at 15 RR camp Paribal Bandipora > > > >   > > Mehrajudin Khah > > Abdul Salam > > August 12,2008 > > Aloosa gath Bandipora > Killed at 15 RR camp Paribal Bandipora > > > >   > > Javaid Ahmad > >   > > August 12,2008 > > Mansbal > > > >   > > Muhammad Aslam Khan > >   > > August 12,2008 > > Kandiwara, Sagam, Kokernag > > > >   > > Muhammad Saleem Shah > > Peer Muhammad Shah > > August 12 > > Naibasti Islamabad > > > >   > > Showkat Ahmed Najar > >   > > August 12 > > Marhama Bijbehara > > > >   > > Sajjad Ahmad > >   > > August 12 > > Rohama, Rafiabad > > > >   > > Irfan Ahmad Ganie > > Bashir Ahmad > > August 11,2008 (Succumbed on Aug 12,2008) > > Seer Jagier Sopore > Killed at Uri > > > >   > > Muhammad Maqbool Killam > > Abdul Gani Kaleem > > August 12,2008 > > Kishtwar > > > >   > > Gufraan > >   > > August 12,2008 > > Thakrai, Kishtwar > > > >   > > Gazanfar Sheikh (10) > >   > > August 12,2008 > > Kishtwar > > > >   > > Hafizullah Baba > > Muhammad Jamal > > August 12,2008 (Succumbed on Aug 13) > > Barthan Qamarwari > Killed at Parimpora > > > >   > > Faisal Ahmed Dar > > Showkat Ahmad Dar > > August 12,2008 (Succumbed on Aug 13) > > Nowhatta > Killed at Baghi-Mehtab > > > >   > > Tanveer Ahmed Handoo > >   > > August 14,2008 > > Safa Kadal > > > >   > > Muhammad Rafiq > > Muhammad Altaf > > August > > Zoonimar (killed at Saidapora) > > > >   > > Latief Ahmad Wani > > Mohammad Amin > > August 17,2008 > > Khan colony, Chanapora > Presently Pantachowk > Beaten and scorched by rioters on August 5,died in AIIMS Delhi on > August 17. > > > >   > > Ghulam Qadir Wakil > >   > > August 24,2008 succumbed on August 25,2008 > > Killed near Dalgate > > > >   > > Zahid Ahmad Banday > >   > > August 24,2008 > > Killed at Pushkar Khag, Beerwah, Budgam > > > >   > > Mohammad Shafi Dar > > Ghulam Nabi > > August 25,2008 > > Killed at Hajan Chowk > > > >   > > Naseema > > W/o Mohammad Ashraf > > August 25,2008 > > Killed at Hajan Chowk > > > >   > > Shahid Ahmad Pahloo > >   > > August 25,2008 > > Saderkot Balla > Killed at Hajan Chowk > > > >   > > Basit Bashir > >   > > August 25,2008 > > Pulwama > > > >   > > Fayaz Ahmad Wani > >   > > August 25,2008 > > Pulwama > > > >   > > Fahmeeda > > W/o Fayaz Ahmad > > August 25,2008 > > Chontipura Handwara > > > >   > > Mohammad Yousuf Banday > >   > > August 27,2008 > > Banday Mohalla Handwara > Killed at Banday Mohalla > > > >   > > Hilal Ahmad Mir > > Abdul Khaliq Mir > > August 27, 2008 > > Soibugh Budgam > > > >   > > Ghulam Nabi Wani > >   > > August 27, 2008 > > Soibugh Budgam. > > > >   > > Showket Ahmad Khanday > > Mohammad Abdullah > > August 25, 2008 > > Narbal Hanzghad (Srinagar-Baramulla Highway) > > > >   > > Name not ascertained yet > >   > > August 11, 2008 > > Resident of Boniyar > > > >   > > Name not ascertained yet > >   > > August 12, 2008 > > Killed at Nagabal, Ganderbal > > > >   > > Javiad Iqbal Bhat (Sumo Driver by profession) > >   > > August 4-2008 > > Killed at Nowhatta-Srinagar > > > >   > > Sajjad Ahmed Ganai (18) > >   > > September 12, 2008 > > Malik Mohalla, Shopian > > > >   > > Manzoor Afzal Sheikh (24) > > Mohammad Afzal Sheikh > > September 12, 2008 > > Kupwara > Killed at Baramulla old town >   >   > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From khurramparvez at yahoo.com Thu Sep 18 14:14:15 2008 From: khurramparvez at yahoo.com (Khurram Parvez) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 01:44:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] The updated list of killings by the firing of armedforces In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <193446.45912.qm@web31809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Do you have any evidence to prove, "...whether the protesters who claim to be peaceful, holding sticks, guns and resort to arson...."???   Ofcourse if you are an apologist of Indian state I expect you to legitimize; the killings of civilians in the name of national interests, raping the women in the name of security, imposing an economic blockade to discipline the anti-Indians, attacking the places of worship for countering terrorism.   May God bless you and your country.   Khurram --- On Thu, 9/18/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The updated list of killings by the firing of armedforces To: khurramparvez at yahoo.com Cc: "SARAI" Date: Thursday, September 18, 2008, 1:16 AM Khurram, your post makes me wonder, whether the protesters who claim to be peaceful, holding sticks, guns and resort to arson and riot should be garlanded. ? And also factional rivalry within hurriyath and the love for hate and passion for blood of these freedom fighters have clearly shown that they can indulge in killing each other during the mass protests to eliminate their rivals.! Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Khurram Parvez Date: Thursday, September 18, 2008 12:38 pm Subject: [Reader-list] The updated list of killings by the firing of armedforces To: SARAI > KILLINGS IN JAMMU DURING Amarnath Sangharsh Samiti Protests >   > > > > > > S.NO > > > NAME > > > PARENTAGE > > > DATE > > > ADDRESS/PLACE OF KILLING > > > > 1. > > > Sunny Padha (30) > > > Khemraj Padha > > > August 4-2008 > > > Samba > > > 2. > > Sanjeev Singh (24) > > Chanchal Singh > > August 4-2008 > > Samba  >   > > > >   >   >   >   >   > KILLINGS DURING 2008 PRO-FREEDOM PROTESTS >   > > > > > > S.NO > > > NAME > > > PARENTAGE > > > DATE > > > ADDRESS/PLACE OF KILLING > > > > >   > > Feroz Ahmad Rah, (35) > (Conductor) > > > Late.Ghulam.Hassan Rah > > > June 23,2008 > > Jogiwan, Botakadal > Killed at Nowhatta > > > >   > > Farooq Ahmad Rather > (Student) > >   > > June 25,2008 > > Mazhama, Magam > > > >   > > Sameer Ahmad, (24), Driver > >   > > June 25,2008 > > Tashwan Chowk Fatehkadal > Killed at Nawakadal > > > >   > > Imtiyaz Ahmad, (19) > >   > > June 28,2008 > > Firdous colony Bemina > > > >   > > Abdul Gani Sheikh, (75) > > Abdul Samad Sheikh > > July 1,2008 > > Ganie Mohalla Budgam > > > >   > > Feroz Ahmad Khan > (Coppersmith) > > Mehraj-ud-din > > June 24, 2008(succumbed on July 5, 2008) > > Taeng-pora, Nawab Bazaar > Killed at Basant Bagh > > > >   > > Asif Mehraj (16) > > Mehraj-ud-Din > > August 4,2008 > > Maisuma > > > >   > > Sheikh Abdul Aziz (Senior Hurriyat Conference Leader) > > Pampore > > August 11,2008 > > Killed at Uri > > > >   > > Manzoor Ahmad Akhoon > > Haji Abdul Shaban > > August 11,2008 > > Khanpora Baramulla > Killed at Uri > > > >   > > Abdul Hamid Bhat > > Dr. Abdul Qayoom > > August 11,2008 > > Kanlibagh, Baramulla > Killed at Uri > > > >   > > Ishfaq Ahmad > > Ghulam Muhammad > > August 11,2008 > > Qamarwari. > > > >   > > Mehboob Hussain Deewani > > Khursheed Ahmad > > August 11,2008 > > Bilal Colony, Bemina (killed at Parimpora) > > > >   > > Tahir Nazir Lone > > Nazir Ahmad > > August 11,2008 > > Thenam Kreeri, Pattan > Killed at Sangrama > > > >   > > Irfan Ahmad War > > Bashir Ahmad > > August 11,2008 > > Krashun Sopore > Killed at Uri > > > >   > > Abid Mustafa Sheikh (18) > > Ghulam Mustafa Sheikh > > August 12,2008 > > Lasjan > > > >   > > Kamraan Sheikh > >   > > August 12, 2008 > > Bemina > > > >   > > Imtiyaz Ahmad Bhat (19) > > Abdul Gani > > August 12,2008 > > Lasjan > > > >   > > Hasina Begum > > W/O: Bashir Ahmad Mir > > August 12,2008 > > Lasjan > > > >   > > Jabeena Begum > >   > > August 12,2008 > > Lasjan > > > >   > > Imran Qayoom Wani (25) > > Abdul Qayoom > > August 12,2008 > > Bagh-e-Mehtab > Killed at Bagh-e-Mehtab > > > >   > > Owais Majeed > > Abdul Majeed > > August 12,2008 > > Rainawari > Killed at Rainawari > > > >   > > Javaid Ahmad Mir > Cameraman of a local news channel, 9TV > > Ghulam Ahmad > > August 12,2008 > > Beighpora, Baghi-Mehtab > Killed at Baghi-Mehtab > > > >   > > Mumtaz Ahmed Bhat > > Mohammad Afzal > > August 12,2008 > > Aloosa Bandipora > Killed at 15 RR camp Paribal Bandipora > > > >   > > Ali Muhammad Khanday > > Ghulam Mohammad > > August 12,2008 > > Aloosa gath > Killed at 15 RR camp Paribal Bandipora > > > >   > > Muhammad Shafi Ganai > > Abdul Aziz > > August 12,2008 > > Ganai Mohalla Aloosa > Killed at 15 RR camp Paribal Bandipora > > > >   > > Mehrajudin Khah > > Abdul Salam > > August 12,2008 > > Aloosa gath Bandipora > Killed at 15 RR camp Paribal Bandipora > > > >   > > Javaid Ahmad > >   > > August 12,2008 > > Mansbal > > > >   > > Muhammad Aslam Khan > >   > > August 12,2008 > > Kandiwara, Sagam, Kokernag > > > >   > > Muhammad Saleem Shah > > Peer Muhammad Shah > > August 12 > > Naibasti Islamabad > > > >   > > Showkat Ahmed Najar > >   > > August 12 > > Marhama Bijbehara > > > >   > > Sajjad Ahmad > >   > > August 12 > > Rohama, Rafiabad > > > >   > > Irfan Ahmad Ganie > > Bashir Ahmad > > August 11,2008 (Succumbed on Aug 12,2008) > > Seer Jagier Sopore > Killed at Uri > > > >   > > Muhammad Maqbool Killam > > Abdul Gani Kaleem > > August 12,2008 > > Kishtwar > > > >   > > Gufraan > >   > > August 12,2008 > > Thakrai, Kishtwar > > > >   > > Gazanfar Sheikh (10) > >   > > August 12,2008 > > Kishtwar > > > >   > > Hafizullah Baba > > Muhammad Jamal > > August 12,2008 (Succumbed on Aug 13) > > Barthan Qamarwari > Killed at Parimpora > > > >   > > Faisal Ahmed Dar > > Showkat Ahmad Dar > > August 12,2008 (Succumbed on Aug 13) > > Nowhatta > Killed at Baghi-Mehtab > > > >   > > Tanveer Ahmed Handoo > >   > > August 14,2008 > > Safa Kadal > > > >   > > Muhammad Rafiq > > Muhammad Altaf > > August > > Zoonimar (killed at Saidapora) > > > >   > > Latief Ahmad Wani > > Mohammad Amin > > August 17,2008 > > Khan colony, Chanapora > Presently Pantachowk > Beaten and scorched by rioters on August 5,died in AIIMS Delhi on > August 17. > > > >   > > Ghulam Qadir Wakil > >   > > August 24,2008 succumbed on August 25,2008 > > Killed near Dalgate > > > >   > > Zahid Ahmad Banday > >   > > August 24,2008 > > Killed at Pushkar Khag, Beerwah, Budgam > > > >   > > Mohammad Shafi Dar > > Ghulam Nabi > > August 25,2008 > > Killed at Hajan Chowk > > > >   > > Naseema > > W/o Mohammad Ashraf > > August 25,2008 > > Killed at Hajan Chowk > > > >   > > Shahid Ahmad Pahloo > >   > > August 25,2008 > > Saderkot Balla > Killed at Hajan Chowk > > > >   > > Basit Bashir > >   > > August 25,2008 > > Pulwama > > > >   > > Fayaz Ahmad Wani > >   > > August 25,2008 > > Pulwama > > > >   > > Fahmeeda > > W/o Fayaz Ahmad > > August 25,2008 > > Chontipura Handwara > > > >   > > Mohammad Yousuf Banday > >   > > August 27,2008 > > Banday Mohalla Handwara > Killed at Banday Mohalla > > > >   > > Hilal Ahmad Mir > > Abdul Khaliq Mir > > August 27, 2008 > > Soibugh Budgam > > > >   > > Ghulam Nabi Wani > >   > > August 27, 2008 > > Soibugh Budgam. > > > >   > > Showket Ahmad Khanday > > Mohammad Abdullah > > August 25, 2008 > > Narbal Hanzghad (Srinagar-Baramulla Highway) > > > >   > > Name not ascertained yet > >   > > August 11, 2008 > > Resident of Boniyar > > > >   > > Name not ascertained yet > >   > > August 12, 2008 > > Killed at Nagabal, Ganderbal > > > >   > > Javiad Iqbal Bhat (Sumo Driver by profession) > >   > > August 4-2008 > > Killed at Nowhatta-Srinagar > > > >   > > Sajjad Ahmed Ganai (18) > >   > > September 12, 2008 > > Malik Mohalla, Shopian > > > >   > > Manzoor Afzal Sheikh (24) > > Mohammad Afzal Sheikh > > September 12, 2008 > > Kupwara > Killed at Baramulla old town >   >   > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From rashneek at gmail.com Thu Sep 18 14:31:13 2008 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 14:31:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The updated list of killings by the firing of armedforces In-Reply-To: <193446.45912.qm@web31809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <193446.45912.qm@web31809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <13df7c120809180201k1e58a23ckb79fee64a530b793@mail.gmail.com> Look who is talking..... Khurram dont forget you drove an entire community way,descerated hundreds of their shrines,about rapes and killings the less I say the better its is.Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones at others. Radhika...the sepratists have a history of killing each other.Sajjad Lone's father,Mirwaiz Farooq,Dr.Guru are some of the examples.If a certain group has a grudge they generally call S(Sallaudin) for murder.Even during the Amarnath agitation Geelani's spokesperson had called S to eliminate Gandhi and Professor meaning thereby Yasin and Abdul Ghani. And incidentally it was you n your friends who shouted Aese Gache Kasheer batenav saan ti bataav varay..... It is all that you sow ...will all that you will reap Rashneek On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 2:14 PM, Khurram Parvez wrote: > Do you have any evidence to prove, "...whether the protesters who claim to > be peaceful, holding sticks, guns and resort to arson...."??? > > Ofcourse if you are an apologist of Indian state I expect you to > legitimize; the killings of civilians in the name of national interests, > raping the women in the name of security, imposing an economic blockade to > discipline the anti-Indians, attacking the places of worship for countering > terrorism. > > May God bless you and your country. > > Khurram > > > --- On Thu, 9/18/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The updated list of killings by the firing of > armedforces > To: khurramparvez at yahoo.com > Cc: "SARAI" > Date: Thursday, September 18, 2008, 1:16 AM > > Khurram, > > your post makes me wonder, whether the protesters who claim to be > peaceful, > holding sticks, guns and resort to arson and riot should be garlanded. ? > > And also factional rivalry within hurriyath and the love for hate and > passion > for blood of these freedom fighters have clearly shown that they can > indulge in > killing each other during the mass protests to eliminate their rivals.! > > Regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Khurram Parvez > Date: Thursday, September 18, 2008 12:38 pm > Subject: [Reader-list] The updated list of killings by the firing > of armedforces > To: SARAI > > > KILLINGS IN JAMMU DURING Amarnath Sangharsh Samiti Protests > > > > > > > > > > > > > > S.NO > > > > > > NAME > > > > > > PARENTAGE > > > > > > DATE > > > > > > ADDRESS/PLACE OF KILLING > > > > > > > > 1. > > > > > > Sunny Padha (30) > > > > > > Khemraj Padha > > > > > > August 4-2008 > > > > > > Samba > > > > > > 2. > > > > Sanjeev Singh (24) > > > > Chanchal Singh > > > > August 4-2008 > > > > Samba > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > KILLINGS DURING 2008 PRO-FREEDOM PROTESTS > > > > > > > > > > > > > > S.NO > > > > > > NAME > > > > > > PARENTAGE > > > > > > DATE > > > > > > ADDRESS/PLACE OF KILLING > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Feroz Ahmad Rah, (35) > > (Conductor) > > > > > > Late.Ghulam.Hassan Rah > > > > > > June 23,2008 > > > > Jogiwan, Botakadal > > Killed at Nowhatta > > > > > > > > > > > > Farooq Ahmad Rather > > (Student) > > > > > > > > June 25,2008 > > > > Mazhama, Magam > > > > > > > > > > > > Sameer Ahmad, (24), Driver > > > > > > > > June 25,2008 > > > > Tashwan Chowk Fatehkadal > > Killed at Nawakadal > > > > > > > > > > > > Imtiyaz Ahmad, (19) > > > > > > > > June 28,2008 > > > > Firdous colony Bemina > > > > > > > > > > > > Abdul Gani Sheikh, (75) > > > > Abdul Samad Sheikh > > > > July 1,2008 > > > > Ganie Mohalla Budgam > > > > > > > > > > > > Feroz Ahmad Khan > > (Coppersmith) > > > > Mehraj-ud-din > > > > June 24, 2008(succumbed on July 5, 2008) > > > > Taeng-pora, Nawab Bazaar > > Killed at Basant Bagh > > > > > > > > > > > > Asif Mehraj (16) > > > > Mehraj-ud-Din > > > > August 4,2008 > > > > Maisuma > > > > > > > > > > > > Sheikh Abdul Aziz (Senior Hurriyat Conference Leader) > > > > Pampore > > > > August 11,2008 > > > > Killed at Uri > > > > > > > > > > > > Manzoor Ahmad Akhoon > > > > Haji Abdul Shaban > > > > August 11,2008 > > > > Khanpora Baramulla > > Killed at Uri > > > > > > > > > > > > Abdul Hamid Bhat > > > > Dr. Abdul Qayoom > > > > August 11,2008 > > > > Kanlibagh, Baramulla > > Killed at Uri > > > > > > > > > > > > Ishfaq Ahmad > > > > Ghulam Muhammad > > > > August 11,2008 > > > > Qamarwari. > > > > > > > > > > > > Mehboob Hussain Deewani > > > > Khursheed Ahmad > > > > August 11,2008 > > > > Bilal Colony, Bemina (killed at Parimpora) > > > > > > > > > > > > Tahir Nazir Lone > > > > Nazir Ahmad > > > > August 11,2008 > > > > Thenam Kreeri, Pattan > > Killed at Sangrama > > > > > > > > > > > > Irfan Ahmad War > > > > Bashir Ahmad > > > > August 11,2008 > > > > Krashun Sopore > > Killed at Uri > > > > > > > > > > > > Abid Mustafa Sheikh (18) > > > > Ghulam Mustafa Sheikh > > > > August 12,2008 > > > > Lasjan > > > > > > > > > > > > Kamraan Sheikh > > > > > > > > August 12, 2008 > > > > Bemina > > > > > > > > > > > > Imtiyaz Ahmad Bhat (19) > > > > Abdul Gani > > > > August 12,2008 > > > > Lasjan > > > > > > > > > > > > Hasina Begum > > > > W/O: Bashir Ahmad Mir > > > > August 12,2008 > > > > Lasjan > > > > > > > > > > > > Jabeena Begum > > > > > > > > August 12,2008 > > > > Lasjan > > > > > > > > > > > > Imran Qayoom Wani (25) > > > > Abdul Qayoom > > > > August 12,2008 > > > > Bagh-e-Mehtab > > Killed at Bagh-e-Mehtab > > > > > > > > > > > > Owais Majeed > > > > Abdul Majeed > > > > August 12,2008 > > > > Rainawari > > Killed at Rainawari > > > > > > > > > > > > Javaid Ahmad Mir > > Cameraman of a local news channel, 9TV > > > > Ghulam Ahmad > > > > August 12,2008 > > > > Beighpora, Baghi-Mehtab > > Killed at Baghi-Mehtab > > > > > > > > > > > > Mumtaz Ahmed Bhat > > > > Mohammad Afzal > > > > August 12,2008 > > > > Aloosa Bandipora > > Killed at 15 RR camp Paribal Bandipora > > > > > > > > > > > > Ali Muhammad Khanday > > > > Ghulam Mohammad > > > > August 12,2008 > > > > Aloosa gath > > Killed at 15 RR camp Paribal Bandipora > > > > > > > > > > > > Muhammad Shafi Ganai > > > > Abdul Aziz > > > > August 12,2008 > > > > Ganai Mohalla Aloosa > > Killed at 15 RR camp Paribal Bandipora > > > > > > > > > > > > Mehrajudin Khah > > > > Abdul Salam > > > > August 12,2008 > > > > Aloosa gath Bandipora > > Killed at 15 RR camp Paribal Bandipora > > > > > > > > > > > > Javaid Ahmad > > > > > > > > August 12,2008 > > > > Mansbal > > > > > > > > > > > > Muhammad Aslam Khan > > > > > > > > August 12,2008 > > > > Kandiwara, Sagam, Kokernag > > > > > > > > > > > > Muhammad Saleem Shah > > > > Peer Muhammad Shah > > > > August 12 > > > > Naibasti Islamabad > > > > > > > > > > > > Showkat Ahmed Najar > > > > > > > > August 12 > > > > Marhama Bijbehara > > > > > > > > > > > > Sajjad Ahmad > > > > > > > > August 12 > > > > Rohama, Rafiabad > > > > > > > > > > > > Irfan Ahmad Ganie > > > > Bashir Ahmad > > > > August 11,2008 (Succumbed on Aug 12,2008) > > > > Seer Jagier Sopore > > Killed at Uri > > > > > > > > > > > > Muhammad Maqbool Killam > > > > Abdul Gani Kaleem > > > > August 12,2008 > > > > Kishtwar > > > > > > > > > > > > Gufraan > > > > > > > > August 12,2008 > > > > Thakrai, Kishtwar > > > > > > > > > > > > Gazanfar Sheikh (10) > > > > > > > > August 12,2008 > > > > Kishtwar > > > > > > > > > > > > Hafizullah Baba > > > > Muhammad Jamal > > > > August 12,2008 (Succumbed on Aug 13) > > > > Barthan Qamarwari > > Killed at Parimpora > > > > > > > > > > > > Faisal Ahmed Dar > > > > Showkat Ahmad Dar > > > > August 12,2008 (Succumbed on Aug 13) > > > > Nowhatta > > Killed at Baghi-Mehtab > > > > > > > > > > > > Tanveer Ahmed Handoo > > > > > > > > August 14,2008 > > > > Safa Kadal > > > > > > > > > > > > Muhammad Rafiq > > > > Muhammad Altaf > > > > August > > > > Zoonimar (killed at Saidapora) > > > > > > > > > > > > Latief Ahmad Wani > > > > Mohammad Amin > > > > August 17,2008 > > > > Khan colony, Chanapora > > Presently Pantachowk > > Beaten and scorched by rioters on August 5,died in AIIMS Delhi on > > August 17. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ghulam Qadir Wakil > > > > > > > > August 24,2008 succumbed on August 25,2008 > > > > Killed near Dalgate > > > > > > > > > > > > Zahid Ahmad Banday > > > > > > > > August 24,2008 > > > > Killed at Pushkar Khag, Beerwah, Budgam > > > > > > > > > > > > Mohammad Shafi Dar > > > > Ghulam Nabi > > > > August 25,2008 > > > > Killed at Hajan Chowk > > > > > > > > > > > > Naseema > > > > W/o Mohammad Ashraf > > > > August 25,2008 > > > > Killed at Hajan Chowk > > > > > > > > > > > > Shahid Ahmad Pahloo > > > > > > > > August 25,2008 > > > > Saderkot Balla > > Killed at Hajan Chowk > > > > > > > > > > > > Basit Bashir > > > > > > > > August 25,2008 > > > > Pulwama > > > > > > > > > > > > Fayaz Ahmad Wani > > > > > > > > August 25,2008 > > > > Pulwama > > > > > > > > > > > > Fahmeeda > > > > W/o Fayaz Ahmad > > > > August 25,2008 > > > > Chontipura Handwara > > > > > > > > > > > > Mohammad Yousuf Banday > > > > > > > > August 27,2008 > > > > Banday Mohalla Handwara > > Killed at Banday Mohalla > > > > > > > > > > > > Hilal Ahmad Mir > > > > Abdul Khaliq Mir > > > > August 27, 2008 > > > > Soibugh Budgam > > > > > > > > > > > > Ghulam Nabi Wani > > > > > > > > August 27, 2008 > > > > Soibugh Budgam. > > > > > > > > > > > > Showket Ahmad Khanday > > > > Mohammad Abdullah > > > > August 25, 2008 > > > > Narbal Hanzghad (Srinagar-Baramulla Highway) > > > > > > > > > > > > Name not ascertained yet > > > > > > > > August 11, 2008 > > > > Resident of Boniyar > > > > > > > > > > > > Name not ascertained yet > > > > > > > > August 12, 2008 > > > > Killed at Nagabal, Ganderbal > > > > > > > > > > > > Javiad Iqbal Bhat (Sumo Driver by profession) > > > > > > > > August 4-2008 > > > > Killed at Nowhatta-Srinagar > > > > > > > > > > > > Sajjad Ahmed Ganai (18) > > > > > > > > September 12, 2008 > > > > Malik Mohalla, Shopian > > > > > > > > > > > > Manzoor Afzal Sheikh (24) > > > > Mohammad Afzal Sheikh > > > > September 12, 2008 > > > > Kupwara > > Killed at Baramulla old town > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > -- Rashneek Kher Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten Human Tragedy http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From jeebesh at sarai.net Thu Sep 18 15:07:45 2008 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 15:07:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Common Questions Asked about Embankments at the Field Level Message-ID: Got this mail from the Yamuna Jiye Abhiyaan on Kosi embankment. best jeebesh Common Questions Asked about Embankments at the Field Level Q1. The flood situation has not improved, even after the construction of the embankments, because the spacing between them is too small; hence it should, as least, be doubled Ans (1) The spacing between the embankments is designed keeping in view the discharge passing through them. If it is increased, the area available for flow within them will increase the water will move with a lower velocity and lesser depth. This will mean more time for the sediments to deposit in the riverbed. The riverbed will continue to rise but it does not mean that by doubling the spacing between the embankments; the rise in the bed will reduce to half. But, surely, the rise of the riverbed will be less than what it used to be earlier and it will take more time to attain the bed levels of today. Increasing spacing amounts to postponing the problem. Ans (2) By increasing the spacing, a larger area will come within the embankments and will be subject to annual flooding and erosion. The people whose lands and houses will be trapped will oppose the more. Such opposition was quite vehement while the Kosi embankments were being constructed (1955-60) and the original profile of the proposed embankment was changed many times due to the people’s pressure. In fact the embankments constructed are only a caricature of the proposed profile of the embankments. Ans (3) Conditions outside the embankments will not change. Q2. Why not make the embankments, Pucca, of concrete? Ans (1) Making the embankments pucca will not prevent the river from depositing sediments within them. The riverbed will continue to rise. The embankments now will not breach but they can surely be overtopped during high floods. Water logging conditions outside the embankments will not change. Ans (2) It’s cost will be prohibitive. Q3 The Americans and the Chinese are managing their embankments so well and there are no floods there. Why cannot we do the same here? Ans(1) This is not true. Both the countries have problems with the embankments along their rivers. The Mississippi basin saw one of the worst floods in 1993. 34 The Chinese continue to struggle with their embankments to date. They have even resorted to selective breaching (1998) of the embankments in the countryside to save the thickly populated towns from flooding. “…… This past week, hundreds of thousands of rural dwellers had to be first evacuated in order that the PLA could blow up some river banks. The reason was simple though no comfort to those evacuated. The Yangtze had reached such heights that it threatened to flood the major industrial city of Wuhan. The banks were blown by the explosives in order to spread out the river waters, before they inundated Wuhan.’’35 The Chinese are trying to make large dams to control floods, but whether that will be effective in controlling floods is debatable. In order to save Samastripur town in Bihar, local villagers believe, the government got the embankment along the Burhi Gandak breached at Satmalpur in 1986. The same thing was said about Jhanjharpur suburb in Madhubani, Bihar, for some years. If the embankments along the Kamala do not breach south of Jhanjharpur or on the western side of the river, Jhanjharpur town will be under greater threat of inundation. The local people feel that these breaches are engineered by the the Jhanjharpur administration. Q4. Why not set up some industry that makes use of the sediments deposited within the embankments? Ans. We have noted earlier the quantity of sediments that are deposited annually within the embankments. No industry can consume so much sedimentary material. Q5. Will not make tarmac roads on the embankments to allow traffic over them? This will ensure their proper maintenance. Ans. This should be possible but it does not answer any of the problems posed by the embankments. It just amounts to improving their upkeep. In the context of floods, it will surely improve communications for some time. Q6 Do embankments breach only because the maintenance staff is corrupt and there is a shortage of funds to maintain the structures? Ans. This is not true. Even the best maintained embankments can breach if the flow grossly exceeds the designed limits. Besides, the embankments are bound to breach because of the limitations of the technology. Corruption or the shortages of funds only hasten this process but are not the only causes. Vested interests benefiting from a breach also play a role. The Kosi breach at Nauhatta, Saharsa (1984) and the Dholi breach in Burhi Gandak (1987) are reported to be the handiwork of vested interests. Q7. If embankments are so harmful, why do people allow these embankments to be built, in the first place? Why did they not protest that the embankment could be built only on their dead bodies? Ans. It is wrong to say that people did not protest against the embankments. When the Kosi embankment was being constructed (1955-60), the people, including children and women opposed the construction literally by lying over the ground near Agargarha Dhar in Madhubani district and near Jamalpur, in Darbhaang district. These protests turned violent and many of the contractors engaged in the work, along with the workers of the Bharat Savak Samaj engaged in public cooperation, were chased away by the people. The field offices of the Kosi Project were also set on fire. The government was compelled to suspend the work for some time in 1956-57. 36 It was only after the general elections of 1957 that enough armed police was available and deployed at the construction sites of the embankments. The Kosi embankments were thus constructed under the shadow of bayonets. In order ot crush the movement, the government pushed the Bharat Sevak Samaj to the forefront and gave contracts to those who were most vocal and virtually bought off the movement. Besides, hundreds of people, including women and children, were put in jails. Court cases were filed against some three hundred persons.37 The Bhakua gap in the Kamala embankments could not be filled because the local people were vehemently opposed to it. This gap is still open. 38 An aggressive marketing of embankments followed the construction of the Kosi embankments, which paved the way for jacketing of other rivers. Q8. If embankments are so bad, why are the people tolerating them now? Ans. The people who live outside the embankments do not want to be hit by surges of water caused by a breach. They suffer them silently because the conditions following flood will be even worse for them. Those living inside the embankments are the ultimate sufferers and hence they never approve of them. During the monsoons, life inside the embankments becomes unbearable and people do wish that they were done away with. At times they do breach the embankments openly. The six breaches in the Bagmati embankment that occurred in the floods of 1993 are yet to be plugged because of the people’s resistance. 39 The western Mahananda embankment was breached by people at three places in 1996 and the embankment victims have not allowed these gaps to be repaired. 40 The Kamala embankments breach and are cut the regular intervals in madhubani district. Similar events are repeated at Manihari in Katihar almost every year. Public cuts (PC) in the embankments of Assam rivers are no secrets. Hence to say that embankments are desirable is not true. The people tolerate them merely because they do not have choice. Q9. Should embankments be demolished? Ans. Rivers will demolish the embankments on their own; the people do not have to do it. However, if the people do not want the breaches plugged, they should not be plugged. The first choice to decide the fate of the embankments should lie with the people closest to the river along which these are built and whose flow affects them immediately. Q10. Will plantation over the slopes of embankments help enhance their life? Ans. Probably, yes. But embankments belong to the concerned departments and only they can do it. But one should be very cautious in choosing the right kind of tree. The Kamala embankments near Jhanjharpur in the Madhubani district of Bihar are planted with Acacia (Babul), which makes their maintenance very difficult in case of emergencies. Q11. It is said that the life – span of an embankment is 25 years. Does it mean that embankments will breach after 25 years of their construction? Ans. Embankments are designed for a certain period of a flood cycle, which may be of 25 years. The maximum discharge passing through a river at a certain point in a year is recorded, as a routine. If such records are available for, say, 100 years, these annual maximum discharges are arranged in an ascending order of magnitude. It is obvious that the sequence of years will now not be chronological. The lowest discharge in this table would indicate that so much discharge will surely be there in the river every year. The highest discharge in this table would relate to a flood in a hundred years span. Thee floods of 25, 50 or 75 years are determined in a similar fashion. These flows are adopted as a basis for designing the spacing, heights, width and the freeboard of the embankments. As a precautionary step, engineers add some more flow to the observed flow and treat that as the design discharge. It is always possible that a hundred year flood may just appear in the year following the construction of the structures. In the case of the Kosi embankments, the highest ever flood was recorded in 1968, eleven years after the construction of the embankments that were designed for a 25 year flood cycle. If a structure is designed for the 25 year flood cycle, it does not mean that it should fail after that period. The concerned departments take advantage of the ignorance of people and spread such falsehoods to save their own skin. Q12. If is not possible to convince Nepal not to release water into our rivers and worsen the flood situation here in the plains? Ans. This is a misleading idea and sometimes it gets headlines in newspapers during the flood season. The electronic media is not far behind in spreading such misinformation. No river in Nepal has been intercepted in such a way that water could be blocked there and its subsequent release would cause flooding in the plains of Bihar, U.P, or West Bengal. Barrages have been constructed over the Gandak and the Kosi to regulate the flow of the river water into canals. Engineers of the water resources department of Bihar are solely responsible for this regulation, Barrages are not made for storing water and if any water is released, the engineers of Bihar release it on the authority of the Government of Bihar. It is done to ensure the safety of the structures. Further, the released water can cause damage only within the embankments. The propaganda, however, leads people to believe that the floods are caused due to the release of waters from Nepal and it is responsible for it. Water has been coming from Nepal since time immemorial and it is not a new phenomenon. All these efforts are made to escape the responsibility for the floods. There was a time when rats, muskrats and foxes were blamed for it. Then the onus fell on the ‘antisocial elements’. Now, it is the turn of Nepal. If different parties are ruling the state and the center, it becomes easy to blame the center for floods in the states. The center, they say is indifferent; it is not taking up the matter of high dams with Nepal seriously; and hence it is responsible for the floods. Q13. The government now admits that embankments are a bad idea and that it has never been involved in their construction nor will it ever be in the future. Ans. This also is not true. The fact is that the present day rulers, or course, did not build the embankments. The earlier government built them. Just because the embankment have failed to perform, it suits the present day rulers to blame them for folds in these states and thus give the message that the earlier governments, and not they, are responsible for it. The annual report of the water resources department of Bihar (1998-99) states that, “…. The length of embankments under construction is 809.40 kilometers and the area to be protected is 6,36,000 hectares. So for only a length of 556.69 kilometers has been constructed which is partially protecting an area of 3,18,000 hectares. The work was suspended for the past six years due to shortage of funds. With the funds available in 1998-99, it is proposed to complete the extension of the right Bhutahi Balan embankment and the Punpun right embankment before June 2000.”41 For the past so many years, these annual reports have been harping on the resource crunch while the leaders spared no opportunity to ridicule the embankements. And this is realpolitik. The politicians talk one thing from public platforms and their departments carry on with programs, exactly contrary to it. Unless efforts are made to counter this double-speak, little headway can be made. So long as the government had no money, embankments were bad and the moment the resource position improved they became acceptable. Q14. But certainly there are places where people have benefited from embankments. Does not that establish their credibility? Ans. When we talk about benefits from embankments in a certain area, we forget about the places where the same embankments have definitely harmed people enormously. This happens normally at those places where the poor people live and who have less political or social clout than those living in the protected areas. Saving townships at the cost of villages is a glaring instance of this. From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Thu Sep 18 16:10:30 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 15:40:30 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] The updated list of killings by the firing ofarmedforces In-Reply-To: <193446.45912.qm@web31809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <193446.45912.qm@web31809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: May GOD bless you and your intellect to understand that the GOD that you are invoking as Allah is the same for me as Ram/Shiva and for other followers of faith, christianity, it is Christ. As to evidence what more evidence is needed when you bring your women and children as shields, hide behind them with your slogans and shoot your own leaders from behind. ? Just as Mulla of lal masid in Pakistan encouraged youth like you for jihad, promised jannath of 72 virgins and janath made of gold and silver, but Mulla himself ran away in Burkha , away from that jannath. ! Well as to argument that 7 lakh people come out to listen to azadi, does it justify the lack of governance of omar Abdulla or his fathers life in London and golf course.? Or to that matter, Mufti by backdoor taking Congress Gulam to be CM to sow the seeds of disharmony between communities. ? Basic truth is that citizens of the nation, be it in kashmir or kanyakumari, be it in Bengal or Gujarath, need good governance without fear or favour to any commune vote bank., without discrimination. Rioters who riot have to be disciplined whichever caste or faith they belong, it does not matter for the nation and its citizens.Deviant behaviour of anyone be it SIMI or bhajrang dal, pentecostal missionaries or nuns and priests of any faith, has to be accounted for by the system of governance as we are the governance as citizens of the nation. ----- Original Message ----- From: Khurram Parvez Date: Thursday, September 18, 2008 2:14 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The updated list of killings by the firing ofarmedforces To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net Cc: SARAI > Do you have any evidence to prove, "...whether the protesters who > claim to be peaceful, holding sticks, guns and resort to arson...."??? >   > Ofcourse if you are an apologist of Indian state I expect you to > legitimize; the killings of civilians in the name of national > interests, raping the women in the name of security, imposing an > economic blockade to discipline the anti-Indians, attacking the > places of worship for countering terrorism. >   > May God bless you and your country. >   > Khurram > > > --- On Thu, 9/18/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net > wrote: > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The updated list of killings by the > firing of armedforces > To: khurramparvez at yahoo.com > Cc: "SARAI" > Date: Thursday, September 18, 2008, 1:16 AM > > Khurram, > > your post makes me wonder, whether the protesters who claim to be > peaceful,holding sticks, guns and resort to arson and riot should > be garlanded. ? > > And also factional rivalry within hurriyath and the love for hate > and passion > for blood of these freedom fighters have clearly shown that they > can indulge in > killing each other during the mass protests to eliminate their > rivals.! > Regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Khurram Parvez > Date: Thursday, September 18, 2008 12:38 pm > Subject: [Reader-list] The updated list of killings by the firing > of armedforces > To: SARAI > > > KILLINGS IN JAMMU DURING Amarnath Sangharsh Samiti Protests > >   > > > > > > > > > > > > S.NO > > > > > > NAME > > > > > > PARENTAGE > > > > > > DATE > > > > > > ADDRESS/PLACE OF KILLING > > > > > > > > 1. > > > > > > Sunny Padha (30) > > > > > > Khemraj Padha > > > > > > August 4-2008 > > > > > > Samba > > > > > > 2. > > > > Sanjeev Singh (24) > > > > Chanchal Singh > > > > August 4-2008 > > > > Samba  > >   > > > > > > > >   > >   > >   > >   > >   > > KILLINGS DURING 2008 PRO-FREEDOM PROTESTS > >   > > > > > > > > > > > > S.NO > > > > > > NAME > > > > > > PARENTAGE > > > > > > DATE > > > > > > ADDRESS/PLACE OF KILLING > > > > > > > > > >   > > > > Feroz Ahmad Rah, (35) > > (Conductor) > > > > > > Late.Ghulam.Hassan Rah > > > > > > June 23,2008 > > > > Jogiwan, Botakadal > > Killed at Nowhatta > > > > > > > >   > > > > Farooq Ahmad Rather > > (Student) > > > >   > > > > June 25,2008 > > > > Mazhama, Magam > > > > > > > >   > > > > Sameer Ahmad, (24), Driver > > > >   > > > > June 25,2008 > > > > Tashwan Chowk Fatehkadal > > Killed at Nawakadal > > > > > > > >   > > > > Imtiyaz Ahmad, (19) > > > >   > > > > June 28,2008 > > > > Firdous colony Bemina > > > > > > > >   > > > > Abdul Gani Sheikh, (75) > > > > Abdul Samad Sheikh > > > > July 1,2008 > > > > Ganie Mohalla Budgam > > > > > > > >   > > > > Feroz Ahmad Khan > > (Coppersmith) > > > > Mehraj-ud-din > > > > June 24, 2008(succumbed on July 5, 2008) > > > > Taeng-pora, Nawab Bazaar > > Killed at Basant Bagh > > > > > > > >   > > > > Asif Mehraj (16) > > > > Mehraj-ud-Din > > > > August 4,2008 > > > > Maisuma > > > > > > > >   > > > > Sheikh Abdul Aziz (Senior Hurriyat Conference Leader) > > > > Pampore > > > > August 11,2008 > > > > Killed at Uri > > > > > > > >   > > > > Manzoor Ahmad Akhoon > > > > Haji Abdul Shaban > > > > August 11,2008 > > > > Khanpora Baramulla > > Killed at Uri > > > > > > > >   > > > > Abdul Hamid Bhat > > > > Dr. Abdul Qayoom > > > > August 11,2008 > > > > Kanlibagh, Baramulla > > Killed at Uri > > > > > > > >   > > > > Ishfaq Ahmad > > > > Ghulam Muhammad > > > > August 11,2008 > > > > Qamarwari. > > > > > > > >   > > > > Mehboob Hussain Deewani > > > > Khursheed Ahmad > > > > August 11,2008 > > > > Bilal Colony, Bemina (killed at Parimpora) > > > > > > > >   > > > > Tahir Nazir Lone > > > > Nazir Ahmad > > > > August 11,2008 > > > > Thenam Kreeri, Pattan > > Killed at Sangrama > > > > > > > >   > > > > Irfan Ahmad War > > > > Bashir Ahmad > > > > August 11,2008 > > > > Krashun Sopore > > Killed at Uri > > > > > > > >   > > > > Abid Mustafa Sheikh (18) > > > > Ghulam Mustafa Sheikh > > > > August 12,2008 > > > > Lasjan > > > > > > > >   > > > > Kamraan Sheikh > > > >   > > > > August 12, 2008 > > > > Bemina > > > > > > > >   > > > > Imtiyaz Ahmad Bhat (19) > > > > Abdul Gani > > > > August 12,2008 > > > > Lasjan > > > > > > > >   > > > > Hasina Begum > > > > W/O: Bashir Ahmad Mir > > > > August 12,2008 > > > > Lasjan > > > > > > > >   > > > > Jabeena Begum > > > >   > > > > August 12,2008 > > > > Lasjan > > > > > > > >   > > > > Imran Qayoom Wani (25) > > > > Abdul Qayoom > > > > August 12,2008 > > > > Bagh-e-Mehtab > > Killed at Bagh-e-Mehtab > > > > > > > >   > > > > Owais Majeed > > > > Abdul Majeed > > > > August 12,2008 > > > > Rainawari > > Killed at Rainawari > > > > > > > >   > > > > Javaid Ahmad Mir > > Cameraman of a local news channel, 9TV > > > > Ghulam Ahmad > > > > August 12,2008 > > > > Beighpora, Baghi-Mehtab > > Killed at Baghi-Mehtab > > > > > > > >   > > > > Mumtaz Ahmed Bhat > > > > Mohammad Afzal > > > > August 12,2008 > > > > Aloosa Bandipora > > Killed at 15 RR camp Paribal Bandipora > > > > > > > >   > > > > Ali Muhammad Khanday > > > > Ghulam Mohammad > > > > August 12,2008 > > > > Aloosa gath > > Killed at 15 RR camp Paribal Bandipora > > > > > > > >   > > > > Muhammad Shafi Ganai > > > > Abdul Aziz > > > > August 12,2008 > > > > Ganai Mohalla Aloosa > > Killed at 15 RR camp Paribal Bandipora > > > > > > > >   > > > > Mehrajudin Khah > > > > Abdul Salam > > > > August 12,2008 > > > > Aloosa gath Bandipora > > Killed at 15 RR camp Paribal Bandipora > > > > > > > >   > > > > Javaid Ahmad > > > >   > > > > August 12,2008 > > > > Mansbal > > > > > > > >   > > > > Muhammad Aslam Khan > > > >   > > > > August 12,2008 > > > > Kandiwara, Sagam, Kokernag > > > > > > > >   > > > > Muhammad Saleem Shah > > > > Peer Muhammad Shah > > > > August 12 > > > > Naibasti Islamabad > > > > > > > >   > > > > Showkat Ahmed Najar > > > >   > > > > August 12 > > > > Marhama Bijbehara > > > > > > > >   > > > > Sajjad Ahmad > > > >   > > > > August 12 > > > > Rohama, Rafiabad > > > > > > > >   > > > > Irfan Ahmad Ganie > > > > Bashir Ahmad > > > > August 11,2008 (Succumbed on Aug 12,2008) > > > > Seer Jagier Sopore > > Killed at Uri > > > > > > > >   > > > > Muhammad Maqbool Killam > > > > Abdul Gani Kaleem > > > > August 12,2008 > > > > Kishtwar > > > > > > > >   > > > > Gufraan > > > >   > > > > August 12,2008 > > > > Thakrai, Kishtwar > > > > > > > >   > > > > Gazanfar Sheikh (10) > > > >   > > > > August 12,2008 > > > > Kishtwar > > > > > > > >   > > > > Hafizullah Baba > > > > Muhammad Jamal > > > > August 12,2008 (Succumbed on Aug 13) > > > > Barthan Qamarwari > > Killed at Parimpora > > > > > > > >   > > > > Faisal Ahmed Dar > > > > Showkat Ahmad Dar > > > > August 12,2008 (Succumbed on Aug 13) > > > > Nowhatta > > Killed at Baghi-Mehtab > > > > > > > >   > > > > Tanveer Ahmed Handoo > > > >   > > > > August 14,2008 > > > > Safa Kadal > > > > > > > >   > > > > Muhammad Rafiq > > > > Muhammad Altaf > > > > August > > > > Zoonimar (killed at Saidapora) > > > > > > > >   > > > > Latief Ahmad Wani > > > > Mohammad Amin > > > > August 17,2008 > > > > Khan colony, Chanapora > > Presently Pantachowk > > Beaten and scorched by rioters on August 5,died in AIIMS Delhi > on > > August 17. > > > > > > > >   > > > > Ghulam Qadir Wakil > > > >   > > > > August 24,2008 succumbed on August 25,2008 > > > > Killed near Dalgate > > > > > > > >   > > > > Zahid Ahmad Banday > > > >   > > > > August 24,2008 > > > > Killed at Pushkar Khag, Beerwah, Budgam > > > > > > > >   > > > > Mohammad Shafi Dar > > > > Ghulam Nabi > > > > August 25,2008 > > > > Killed at Hajan Chowk > > > > > > > >   > > > > Naseema > > > > W/o Mohammad Ashraf > > > > August 25,2008 > > > > Killed at Hajan Chowk > > > > > > > >   > > > > Shahid Ahmad Pahloo > > > >   > > > > August 25,2008 > > > > Saderkot Balla > > Killed at Hajan Chowk > > > > > > > >   > > > > Basit Bashir > > > >   > > > > August 25,2008 > > > > Pulwama > > > > > > > >   > > > > Fayaz Ahmad Wani > > > >   > > > > August 25,2008 > > > > Pulwama > > > > > > > >   > > > > Fahmeeda > > > > W/o Fayaz Ahmad > > > > August 25,2008 > > > > Chontipura Handwara > > > > > > > >   > > > > Mohammad Yousuf Banday > > > >   =3E > > > August 27,2008 > > > > Banday Mohalla Handwara > > Killed at Banday Mohalla > > > > > > > >   > > > > Hilal Ahmad Mir > > > > Abdul Khaliq Mir > > > > August 27, 2008 > > > > Soibugh Budgam > > > > > > > >   > > > > Ghulam Nabi Wani > > > >   > > > > August 27, 2008 > > > > Soibugh Budgam. > > > > > > > >   > > > > Showket Ahmad Khanday > > > > Mohammad Abdullah > > > > August 25, 2008 > > > > Narbal Hanzghad (Srinagar-Baramulla Highway) > > > > > > > >   > > > > Name not ascertained yet > > > >   > > > > August 11, 2008 > > > > Resident of Boniyar > > > > > > > >   > > > > Name not ascertained yet > > > >   > > > > August 12, 2008 > > > > Killed at Nagabal, Ganderbal > > > > > > > >   > > > > Javiad Iqbal Bhat (Sumo Driver by profession) > > > >   > > > > August 4-2008 > > > > Killed at Nowhatta-Srinagar > > > > > > > >   > > > > Sajjad Ahmed Ganai (18) > > > >   > > > > September 12, 2008 > > > > Malik Mohalla, Shopian > > > > > > > >   > > > > Manzoor Afzal Sheikh (24) > > > > Mohammad Afzal Sheikh > > > > September 12, 2008 > > > > Kupwara > > Killed at Baramulla old town > >   > >   > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > > > > > > From indersalim at gmail.com Thu Sep 18 18:14:17 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 18:14:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] must see for kashmir dabators: Mahmoud Darwish ( G.L. Godard ) ... Message-ID: <47e122a70809180544k66c65b43p730b22f42fb089f4@mail.gmail.com> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_ypKKBKflw is -- From jeebesh at sarai.net Thu Sep 18 18:27:48 2008 From: jeebesh at sarai.net (Jeebesh) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 18:27:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The updated list of killings by the firing ofarmedforces In-Reply-To: References: <193446.45912.qm@web31809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: It maybe worthwhile to see Deewar by Yash Chopra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deewaar_(1975_film) ) and see the difficulty of producing the clean, legible and UNmarked subject to be governed by state. On 18-Sep-08, at 4:10 PM, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > May GOD bless you and your intellect to understand that the GOD that > you are invoking as Allah is the same for me as Ram/Shiva and for > other followers of faith, christianity, it is Christ. > As to evidence what more evidence is needed when you bring your > women and children as shields, hide behind them with your slogans > and shoot your own leaders from behind. ? Just as Mulla of lal masid > in Pakistan encouraged youth like you for jihad, promised jannath of > 72 virgins and janath made of gold and silver, but Mulla himself ran > away in Burkha , away from that jannath. ! > > Well as to argument that 7 lakh people come out to listen to > azadi, does it justify the lack of governance of omar Abdulla or his > fathers life in London and golf course.? Or to that matter, Mufti by > backdoor taking Congress Gulam to be CM to sow the seeds of > disharmony between communities. ? > > Basic truth is that citizens of the nation, be it in kashmir or > kanyakumari, be it in Bengal or Gujarath, need good governance > without fear or favour to any commune vote bank., without > discrimination. Rioters who riot have to be disciplined whichever > caste or faith they belong, it does not matter for the nation and > its citizens.Deviant behaviour of anyone be it SIMI or bhajrang > dal, pentecostal missionaries or nuns and priests of any faith, > has to be accounted for by the system of governance as we are the > governance as citizens of the nation. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Khurram Parvez > Date: Thursday, September 18, 2008 2:14 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The updated list of killings by the > firing ofarmedforces > To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > Cc: SARAI > >> Do you have any evidence to prove, "...whether the protesters who >> claim to be peaceful, holding sticks, guns and resort to >> arson...."??? >> >> Ofcourse if you are an apologist of Indian state I expect you to >> legitimize; the killings of civilians in the name of national >> interests, raping the women in the name of security, imposing an >> economic blockade to discipline the anti-Indians, attacking the >> places of worship for countering terrorism. >> >> May God bless you and your country. >> >> Khurram >> >> >> --- On Thu, 9/18/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net >> wrote: >> From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The updated list of killings by the >> firing of armedforces >> To: khurramparvez at yahoo.com >> Cc: "SARAI" >> Date: Thursday, September 18, 2008, 1:16 AM >> >> Khurram, >> >> your post makes me wonder, whether the protesters who claim to be >> peaceful,holding sticks, guns and resort to arson and riot should >> be garlanded. ? >> >> And also factional rivalry within hurriyath and the love for hate >> and passion >> for blood of these freedom fighters have clearly shown that they >> can indulge in >> killing each other during the mass protests to eliminate their >> rivals.! >> Regards. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Khurram Parvez >> Date: Thursday, September 18, 2008 12:38 pm >> Subject: [Reader-list] The updated list of killings by the firing >> of armedforces >> To: SARAI >> >>> KILLINGS IN JAMMU DURING Amarnath Sangharsh Samiti Protests >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> S.NO >>> >>> >>> NAME >>> >>> >>> PARENTAGE >>> >>> >>> DATE >>> >>> >>> ADDRESS/PLACE OF KILLING >>> >>> >>> >>> 1. >>> >>> >>> Sunny Padha (30) >>> >>> >>> Khemraj Padha >>> >>> >>> August 4-2008 >>> >>> >>> Samba >>> >>> >>> 2. >>> >>> Sanjeev Singh (24) >>> >>> Chanchal Singh >>> >>> August 4-2008 >>> >>> Samba >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> KILLINGS DURING 2008 PRO-FREEDOM PROTESTS >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> S.NO >>> >>> >>> NAME >>> >>> >>> PARENTAGE >>> >>> >>> DATE >>> >>> >>> ADDRESS/PLACE OF KILLING >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Feroz Ahmad Rah, (35) >>> (Conductor) >>> >>> >>> Late.Ghulam.Hassan Rah >>> >>> >>> June 23,2008 >>> >>> Jogiwan, Botakadal >>> Killed at Nowhatta >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Farooq Ahmad Rather >>> (Student) >>> >>> >>> >>> June 25,2008 >>> >>> Mazhama, Magam >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sameer Ahmad, (24), Driver >>> >>> >>> >>> June 25,2008 >>> >>> Tashwan Chowk Fatehkadal >>> Killed at Nawakadal >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Imtiyaz Ahmad, (19) >>> >>> >>> >>> June 28,2008 >>> >>> Firdous colony Bemina >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Abdul Gani Sheikh, (75) >>> >>> Abdul Samad Sheikh >>> >>> July 1,2008 >>> >>> Ganie Mohalla Budgam >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Feroz Ahmad Khan >>> (Coppersmith) >>> >>> Mehraj-ud-din >>> >>> June 24, 2008(succumbed on July 5, 2008) >>> >>> Taeng-pora, Nawab Bazaar >>> Killed at Basant Bagh >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Asif Mehraj (16) >>> >>> Mehraj-ud-Din >>> >>> August 4,2008 >>> >>> Maisuma >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sheikh Abdul Aziz (Senior Hurriyat Conference Leader) >>> >>> Pampore >>> >>> August 11,2008 >>> >>> Killed at Uri >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Manzoor Ahmad Akhoon >>> >>> Haji Abdul Shaban >>> >>> August 11,2008 >>> >>> Khanpora Baramulla >>> Killed at Uri >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Abdul Hamid Bhat >>> >>> Dr. Abdul Qayoom >>> >>> August 11,2008 >>> >>> Kanlibagh, Baramulla >>> Killed at Uri >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Ishfaq Ahmad >>> >>> Ghulam Muhammad >>> >>> August 11,2008 >>> >>> Qamarwari. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Mehboob Hussain Deewani >>> >>> Khursheed Ahmad >>> >>> August 11,2008 >>> >>> Bilal Colony, Bemina (killed at Parimpora) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Tahir Nazir Lone >>> >>> Nazir Ahmad >>> >>> August 11,2008 >>> >>> Thenam Kreeri, Pattan >>> Killed at Sangrama >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Irfan Ahmad War >>> >>> Bashir Ahmad >>> >>> August 11,2008 >>> >>> Krashun Sopore >>> Killed at Uri >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Abid Mustafa Sheikh (18) >>> >>> Ghulam Mustafa Sheikh >>> >>> August 12,2008 >>> >>> Lasjan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Kamraan Sheikh >>> >>> >>> >>> August 12, 2008 >>> >>> Bemina >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Imtiyaz Ahmad Bhat (19) >>> >>> Abdul Gani >>> >>> August 12,2008 >>> >>> Lasjan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Hasina Begum >>> >>> W/O: Bashir Ahmad Mir >>> >>> August 12,2008 >>> >>> Lasjan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Jabeena Begum >>> >>> >>> >>> August 12,2008 >>> >>> Lasjan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Imran Qayoom Wani (25) >>> >>> Abdul Qayoom >>> >>> August 12,2008 >>> >>> Bagh-e-Mehtab >>> Killed at Bagh-e-Mehtab >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Owais Majeed >>> >>> Abdul Majeed >>> >>> August 12,2008 >>> >>> Rainawari >>> Killed at Rainawari >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Javaid Ahmad Mir >>> Cameraman of a local news channel, 9TV >>> >>> Ghulam Ahmad >>> >>> August 12,2008 >>> >>> Beighpora, Baghi-Mehtab >>> Killed at Baghi-Mehtab >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Mumtaz Ahmed Bhat >>> >>> Mohammad Afzal >>> >>> August 12,2008 >>> >>> Aloosa Bandipora >>> Killed at 15 RR camp Paribal Bandipora >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Ali Muhammad Khanday >>> >>> Ghulam Mohammad >>> >>> August 12,2008 >>> >>> Aloosa gath >>> Killed at 15 RR camp Paribal Bandipora >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Muhammad Shafi Ganai >>> >>> Abdul Aziz >>> >>> August 12,2008 >>> >>> Ganai Mohalla Aloosa >>> Killed at 15 RR camp Paribal Bandipora >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Mehrajudin Khah >>> >>> Abdul Salam >>> >>> August 12,2008 >>> >>> Aloosa gath Bandipora >>> Killed at 15 RR camp Paribal Bandipora >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Javaid Ahmad >>> >>> >>> >>> August 12,2008 >>> >>> Mansbal >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Muhammad Aslam Khan >>> >>> >>> >>> August 12,2008 >>> >>> Kandiwara, Sagam, Kokernag >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Muhammad Saleem Shah >>> >>> Peer Muhammad Shah >>> >>> August 12 >>> >>> Naibasti Islamabad >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Showkat Ahmed Najar >>> >>> >>> >>> August 12 >>> >>> Marhama Bijbehara >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sajjad Ahmad >>> >>> >>> >>> August 12 >>> >>> Rohama, Rafiabad >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Irfan Ahmad Ganie >>> >>> Bashir Ahmad >>> >>> August 11,2008 (Succumbed on Aug 12,2008) >>> >>> Seer Jagier Sopore >>> Killed at Uri >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Muhammad Maqbool Killam >>> >>> Abdul Gani Kaleem >>> >>> August 12,2008 >>> >>> Kishtwar >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Gufraan >>> >>> >>> >>> August 12,2008 >>> >>> Thakrai, Kishtwar >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Gazanfar Sheikh (10) >>> >>> >>> >>> August 12,2008 >>> >>> Kishtwar >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Hafizullah Baba >>> >>> Muhammad Jamal >>> >>> August 12,2008 (Succumbed on Aug 13) >>> >>> Barthan Qamarwari >>> Killed at Parimpora >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Faisal Ahmed Dar >>> >>> Showkat Ahmad Dar >>> >>> August 12,2008 (Succumbed on Aug 13) >>> >>> Nowhatta >>> Killed at Baghi-Mehtab >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Tanveer Ahmed Handoo >>> >>> >>> >>> August 14,2008 >>> >>> Safa Kadal >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Muhammad Rafiq >>> >>> Muhammad Altaf >>> >>> August >>> >>> Zoonimar (killed at Saidapora) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Latief Ahmad Wani >>> >>> Mohammad Amin >>> >>> August 17,2008 >>> >>> Khan colony, Chanapora >>> Presently Pantachowk >>> Beaten and scorched by rioters on August 5,died in AIIMS Delhi >> on >>> August 17. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Ghulam Qadir Wakil >>> >>> >>> >>> August 24,2008 succumbed on August 25,2008 >>> >>> Killed near Dalgate >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Zahid Ahmad Banday >>> >>> >>> >>> August 24,2008 >>> >>> Killed at Pushkar Khag, Beerwah, Budgam >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Mohammad Shafi Dar >>> >>> Ghulam Nabi >>> >>> August 25,2008 >>> >>> Killed at Hajan Chowk >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Naseema >>> >>> W/o Mohammad Ashraf >>> >>> August 25,2008 >>> >>> Killed at Hajan Chowk >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Shahid Ahmad Pahloo >>> >>> >>> >>> August 25,2008 >>> >>> Saderkot Balla >>> Killed at Hajan Chowk >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Basit Bashir >>> >>> >>> >>> August 25,2008 >>> >>> Pulwama >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Fayaz Ahmad Wani >>> >>> >>> >>> August 25,2008 >>> >>> Pulwama >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Fahmeeda >>> >>> W/o Fayaz Ahmad >>> >>> August 25,2008 >>> >>> Chontipura Handwara >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Mohammad Yousuf Banday >>> >>> > =3E > >>> August 27,2008 >>> >>> Banday Mohalla Handwara >>> Killed at Banday Mohalla >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Hilal Ahmad Mir >>> >>> Abdul Khaliq Mir >>> >>> August 27, 2008 >>> >>> Soibugh Budgam >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Ghulam Nabi Wani >>> >>> >>> >>> August 27, 2008 >>> >>> Soibugh Budgam. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Showket Ahmad Khanday >>> >>> Mohammad Abdullah >>> >>> August 25, 2008 >>> >>> Narbal Hanzghad (Srinagar-Baramulla Highway) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Name not ascertained yet >>> >>> >>> >>> August 11, 2008 >>> >>> Resident of Boniyar >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Name not ascertained yet >>> >>> >>> >>> August 12, 2008 >>> >>> Killed at Nagabal, Ganderbal >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Javiad Iqbal Bhat (Sumo Driver by profession) >>> >>> >>> >>> August 4-2008 >>> >>> Killed at Nowhatta-Srinagar >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sajjad Ahmed Ganai (18) >>> >>> >>> >>> September 12, 2008 >>> >>> Malik Mohalla, Shopian >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Manzoor Afzal Sheikh (24) >>> >>> Mohammad Afzal Sheikh >>> >>> September 12, 2008 >>> >>> Kupwara >>> Killed at Baramulla old town >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >>> list >>> List archive: >> >> >> >> >> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From lalitambardar at hotmail.com Thu Sep 18 18:47:04 2008 From: lalitambardar at hotmail.com (Lalit Ambardar) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 13:17:04 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] The updated list of killings by the firing ofarmedforces In-Reply-To: References: <193446.45912.qm@web31809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The opposite of a 'state' would be 'anarchy'.Let us not encourage it. > From: jeebesh at sarai.net> To: reader-list at sarai.net> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 18:27:48 +0530> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The updated list of killings by the firing ofarmedforces> > It maybe worthwhile to see Deewar by Yash Chopra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deewaar_(1975_film) > ) and see the difficulty of producing the clean, legible and > UNmarked subject to be governed by state.> > On 18-Sep-08, at 4:10 PM, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote:> > > May GOD bless you and your intellect to understand that the GOD that > > you are invoking as Allah is the same for me as Ram/Shiva and for > > other followers of faith, christianity, it is Christ.> > As to evidence what more evidence is needed when you bring your > > women and children as shields, hide behind them with your slogans > > and shoot your own leaders from behind. ? Just as Mulla of lal masid > > in Pakistan encouraged youth like you for jihad, promised jannath of > > 72 virgins and janath made of gold and silver, but Mulla himself ran > > away in Burkha , away from that jannath. !> >> > Well as to argument that 7 lakh people come out to listen to > > azadi, does it justify the lack of governance of omar Abdulla or his > > fathers life in London and golf course.? Or to that matter, Mufti by > > backdoor taking Congress Gulam to be CM to sow the seeds of > > disharmony between communities. ?> >> > Basic truth is that citizens of the nation, be it in kashmir or > > kanyakumari, be it in Bengal or Gujarath, need good governance > > without fear or favour to any commune vote bank., without > > discrimination. Rioters who riot have to be disciplined whichever > > caste or faith they belong, it does not matter for the nation and > > its citizens.Deviant behaviour of anyone be it SIMI or bhajrang > > dal, pentecostal missionaries or nuns and priests of any faith, > > has to be accounted for by the system of governance as we are the > > governance as citizens of the nation.> >> > ----- Original Message -----> > From: Khurram Parvez > > Date: Thursday, September 18, 2008 2:14 pm> > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The updated list of killings by the > > firing ofarmedforces> > To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net> > Cc: SARAI > >> >> Do you have any evidence to prove, "...whether the protesters who> >> claim to be peaceful, holding sticks, guns and resort to > >> arson...."???> >>> >> Ofcourse if you are an apologist of Indian state I expect you to> >> legitimize; the killings of civilians in the name of national> >> interests, raping the women in the name of security, imposing an> >> economic blockade to discipline the anti-Indians, attacking the> >> places of worship for countering terrorism.> >>> >> May God bless you and your country.> >>> >> Khurram> >>> >>> >> --- On Thu, 9/18/08, radhikarajen at vsnl.net > >> wrote:> >> From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The updated list of killings by the> >> firing of armedforces> >> To: khurramparvez at yahoo.com> >> Cc: "SARAI" > >> Date: Thursday, September 18, 2008, 1:16 AM> >>> >> Khurram,> >>> >> your post makes me wonder, whether the protesters who claim to be> >> peaceful,holding sticks, guns and resort to arson and riot should> >> be garlanded. ?> >>> >> And also factional rivalry within hurriyath and the love for hate> >> and passion> >> for blood of these freedom fighters have clearly shown that they> >> can indulge in> >> killing each other during the mass protests to eliminate their> >> rivals.!> >> Regards.> >>> >> ----- Original Message -----> >> From: Khurram Parvez > >> Date: Thursday, September 18, 2008 12:38 pm> >> Subject: [Reader-list] The updated list of killings by the firing> >> of armedforces> >> To: SARAI > >>> >>> KILLINGS IN JAMMU DURING Amarnath Sangharsh Samiti Protests> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> S.NO> >>>> >>>> >>> NAME> >>>> >>>> >>> PARENTAGE> >>>> >>>> >>> DATE> >>>> >>>> >>> ADDRESS/PLACE OF KILLING> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> 1.> >>>> >>>> >>> Sunny Padha (30)> >>>> >>>> >>> Khemraj Padha> >>>> >>>> >>> August 4-2008> >>>> >>>> >>> Samba> >>>> >>>> >>> 2.> >>>> >>> Sanjeev Singh (24)> >>>> >>> Chanchal Singh> >>>> >>> August 4-2008> >>>> >>> Samba> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> KILLINGS DURING 2008 PRO-FREEDOM PROTESTS> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> S.NO> >>>> >>>> >>> NAME> >>>> >>>> >>> PARENTAGE> >>>> >>>> >>> DATE> >>>> >>>> >>> ADDRESS/PLACE OF KILLING> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Feroz Ahmad Rah, (35)> >>> (Conductor)> >>>> >>>> >>> Late.Ghulam.Hassan Rah> >>>> >>>> >>> June 23,2008> >>>> >>> Jogiwan, Botakadal> >>> Killed at Nowhatta> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Farooq Ahmad Rather> >>> (Student)> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> June 25,2008> >>>> >>> Mazhama, Magam> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Sameer Ahmad, (24), Driver> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> June 25,2008> >>>> >>> Tashwan Chowk Fatehkadal> >>> Killed at Nawakadal> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Imtiyaz Ahmad, (19)> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> June 28,2008> >>>> >>> Firdous colony Bemina> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Abdul Gani Sheikh, (75)> >>>> >>> Abdul Samad Sheikh> >>>> >>> July 1,2008> >>>> >>> Ganie Mohalla Budgam> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Feroz Ahmad Khan> >>> (Coppersmith)> >>>> >>> Mehraj-ud-din> >>>> >>> June 24, 2008(succumbed on July 5, 2008)> >>>> >>> Taeng-pora, Nawab Bazaar> >>> Killed at Basant Bagh> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Asif Mehraj (16)> >>>> >>> Mehraj-ud-Din> >>>> >>> August 4,2008> >>>> >>> Maisuma> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Sheikh Abdul Aziz (Senior Hurriyat Conference Leader)> >>>> >>> Pampore> >>>> >>> August 11,2008> >>>> >>> Killed at Uri> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Manzoor Ahmad Akhoon> >>>> >>> Haji Abdul Shaban> >>>> >>> August 11,2008> >>>> >>> Khanpora Baramulla> >>> Killed at Uri> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Abdul Hamid Bhat> >>>> >>> Dr. Abdul Qayoom> >>>> >>> August 11,2008> >>>> >>> Kanlibagh, Baramulla> >>> Killed at Uri> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Ishfaq Ahmad> >>>> >>> Ghulam Muhammad> >>>> >>> August 11,2008> >>>> >>> Qamarwari.> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Mehboob Hussain Deewani> >>>> >>> Khursheed Ahmad> >>>> >>> August 11,2008> >>>> >>> Bilal Colony, Bemina (killed at Parimpora)> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Tahir Nazir Lone> >>>> >>> Nazir Ahmad> >>>> >>> August 11,2008> >>>> >>> Thenam Kreeri, Pattan> >>> Killed at Sangrama> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Irfan Ahmad War> >>>> >>> Bashir Ahmad> >>>> >>> August 11,2008> >>>> >>> Krashun Sopore> >>> Killed at Uri> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Abid Mustafa Sheikh (18)> >>>> >>> Ghulam Mustafa Sheikh> >>>> >>> August 12,2008> >>>> >>> Lasjan> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Kamraan Sheikh> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> August 12, 2008> >>>> >>> Bemina> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Imtiyaz Ahmad Bhat (19)> >>>> >>> Abdul Gani> >>>> >>> August 12,2008> >>>> >>> Lasjan> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Hasina Begum> >>>> >>> W/O: Bashir Ahmad Mir> >>>> >>> August 12,2008> >>>> >>> Lasjan> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Jabeena Begum> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> August 12,2008> >>>> >>> Lasjan> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Imran Qayoom Wani (25)> >>>> >>> Abdul Qayoom> >>>> >>> August 12,2008> >>>> >>> Bagh-e-Mehtab> >>> Killed at Bagh-e-Mehtab> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Owais Majeed> >>>> >>> Abdul Majeed> >>>> >>> August 12,2008> >>>> >>> Rainawari> >>> Killed at Rainawari> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Javaid Ahmad Mir> >>> Cameraman of a local news channel, 9TV> >>>> >>> Ghulam Ahmad> >>>> >>> August 12,2008> >>>> >>> Beighpora, Baghi-Mehtab> >>> Killed at Baghi-Mehtab> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Mumtaz Ahmed Bhat> >>>> >>> Mohammad Afzal> >>>> >>> August 12,2008> >>>> >>> Aloosa Bandipora> >>> Killed at 15 RR camp Paribal Bandipora> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Ali Muhammad Khanday> >>>> >>> Ghulam Mohammad> >>>> >>> August 12,2008> >>>> >>> Aloosa gath> >>> Killed at 15 RR camp Paribal Bandipora> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Muhammad Shafi Ganai> >>>> >>> Abdul Aziz> >>>> >>> August 12,2008> >>>> >>> Ganai Mohalla Aloosa> >>> Killed at 15 RR camp Paribal Bandipora> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Mehrajudin Khah> >>>> >>> Abdul Salam> >>>> >>> August 12,2008> >>>> >>> Aloosa gath Bandipora> >>> Killed at 15 RR camp Paribal Bandipora> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Javaid Ahmad> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> August 12,2008> >>>> >>> Mansbal> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Muhammad Aslam Khan> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> August 12,2008> >>>> >>> Kandiwara, Sagam, Kokernag> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Muhammad Saleem Shah> >>>> >>> Peer Muhammad Shah> >>>> >>> August 12> >>>> >>> Naibasti Islamabad> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Showkat Ahmed Najar> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> August 12> >>>> >>> Marhama Bijbehara> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Sajjad Ahmad> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> August 12> >>>> >>> Rohama, Rafiabad> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Irfan Ahmad Ganie> >>>> >>> Bashir Ahmad> >>>> >>> August 11,2008 (Succumbed on Aug 12,2008)> >>>> >>> Seer Jagier Sopore> >>> Killed at Uri> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Muhammad Maqbool Killam> >>>> >>> Abdul Gani Kaleem> >>>> >>> August 12,2008> >>>> >>> Kishtwar> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Gufraan> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> August 12,2008> >>>> >>> Thakrai, Kishtwar> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Gazanfar Sheikh (10)> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> August 12,2008> >>>> >>> Kishtwar> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Hafizullah Baba> >>>> >>> Muhammad Jamal> >>>> >>> August 12,2008 (Succumbed on Aug 13)> >>>> >>> Barthan Qamarwari> >>> Killed at Parimpora> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Faisal Ahmed Dar> >>>> >>> Showkat Ahmad Dar> >>>> >>> August 12,2008 (Succumbed on Aug 13)> >>>> >>> Nowhatta> >>> Killed at Baghi-Mehtab> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Tanveer Ahmed Handoo> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> August 14,2008> >>>> >>> Safa Kadal> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Muhammad Rafiq> >>>> >>> Muhammad Altaf> >>>> >>> August> >>>> >>> Zoonimar (killed at Saidapora)> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Latief Ahmad Wani> >>>> >>> Mohammad Amin> >>>> >>> August 17,2008> >>>> >>> Khan colony, Chanapora> >>> Presently Pantachowk> >>> Beaten and scorched by rioters on August 5,died in AIIMS Delhi> >> on> >>> August 17.> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Ghulam Qadir Wakil> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> August 24,2008 succumbed on August 25,2008> >>>> >>> Killed near Dalgate> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Zahid Ahmad Banday> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> August 24,2008> >>>> >>> Killed at Pushkar Khag, Beerwah, Budgam> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Mohammad Shafi Dar> >>>> >>> Ghulam Nabi> >>>> >>> August 25,2008> >>>> >>> Killed at Hajan Chowk> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Naseema> >>>> >>> W/o Mohammad Ashraf> >>>> >>> August 25,2008> >>>> >>> Killed at Hajan Chowk> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Shahid Ahmad Pahloo> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> August 25,2008> >>>> >>> Saderkot Balla> >>> Killed at Hajan Chowk> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Basit Bashir> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> August 25,2008> >>>> >>> Pulwama> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Fayaz Ahmad Wani> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> August 25,2008> >>>> >>> Pulwama> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Fahmeeda> >>>> >>> W/o Fayaz Ahmad> >>>> >>> August 25,2008> >>>> >>> Chontipura Handwara> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Mohammad Yousuf Banday> >>>> >>>> > =3E >> >>> August 27,2008> >>>> >>> Banday Mohalla Handwara> >>> Killed at Banday Mohalla> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Hilal Ahmad Mir> >>>> >>> Abdul Khaliq Mir> >>>> >>> August 27, 2008> >>>> >>> Soibugh Budgam> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Ghulam Nabi Wani> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> August 27, 2008> >>>> >>> Soibugh Budgam.> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Showket Ahmad Khanday> >>>> >>> Mohammad Abdullah> >>>> >>> August 25, 2008> >>>> >>> Narbal Hanzghad (Srinagar-Baramulla Highway)> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Name not ascertained yet> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> August 11, 2008> >>>> >>> Resident of Boniyar> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Name not ascertained yet> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> August 12, 2008> >>>> >>> Killed at Nagabal, Ganderbal> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Javiad Iqbal Bhat (Sumo Driver by profession)> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> August 4-2008> >>>> >>> Killed at Nowhatta-Srinagar> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Sajjad Ahmed Ganai (18)> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> September 12, 2008> >>>> >>> Malik Mohalla, Shopian> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Manzoor Afzal Sheikh (24)> >>>> >>> Mohammad Afzal Sheikh> >>>> >>> September 12, 2008> >>>> >>> Kupwara> >>> Killed at Baramulla old town> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> _________________________________________> >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> >>> Critiques & Collaborations> >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net> >> with> >>> subscribe in the subject header.> >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-> >>> list> >>> List archive: > >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Search for videos of Bollywood, Hollywood, Mollywood and every other wood, only on Live.com http://www.live.com/?scope=video&form=MICOAL From elkamath at yahoo.com Thu Sep 18 20:01:58 2008 From: elkamath at yahoo.com (lalitha kamath) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 07:31:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] the rating kinds take a battering Message-ID: <193190.39263.qm@web53606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> How the financial crisis has affected rural New South Wales shire councils and the role of the credit rating agencies. This compels a harder look at the doings of the ratings kings in Indian cities... The rating kings take a battering Ruth Williams September 6, 2008 http://business.theage.com.au/business/the-rating-kings-take-a-battering-20080905-4asw.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap2 Business Day The Age Australia THEY are staid, respected, low-profile institutions. At least they were until very recently. Their services are both expensive and indispensable. They have a profound influence on investment markets around the world, and therefore, a profound influence on the wealth or otherwise of investors big and small. And many people believe they were a key contributor to what we now know as the subprime crisis. They are credit rating agencies. Globally, there are three of note: Standard & Poor's, Moody's Investors Service, and Fitch Ratings. And over the past eight weeks, their reputation has taken a battering. They have been accused of conflicts of interest and even incompetence. They are being sued in the US and slapped with extra layers of regulation in the European Union. They are being blamed, in part, for events that have bankrupted companies, pushed mortgage holders out of their homes, and that have rocked financial markets worldwide. And here in Australia they are implicated in losses suffered by some of the smallest and least financially sophisticated institutional investors in the country, including rural shire councils. It is all a giant mess that has "significantly undermined" the credibility of the rating agencies, according to Melbourne University corporate law expert Ian Ramsay. And, some believe, it may lead to unprecedented legal action in Australia. The Age has revealed the extent of losses councils have suffered around Australia, which invested millions in complex financial instruments known as "collateralised debt obligations" (CDOs) that were sold to them by Grange Securities, since bought by Lehman Brothers. What is happening in rural NSW, and in other states, is a microcosm of events taking place around the world. Understand what happened there and you understand the root of the subprime crisis, and how the credit rating agencies were the conduit for the whole thing — how they facilitated it; how they let it happen. It all begins with a set of guidelines. Councils in NSW, as with many institutions, are restricted in how they can invest surplus money. Property is OK. Deposits with banks, credit unions or building societies are OK. And, crucially, any securities rated at least "A" by S&P, Fitch or Moody's are rolled-gold, guideline-approved OK. So when broker Grange Securities came courting in late 2006 with Federation, a form of CDO, many rural councils saw no reason not to invest. It was, according to Grange, "linked to the performance" of a portfolio of 40 bonds backed by "diversified US residential mortgage pools" — bonds that were rated AA- or A by S&P. What does this mean? Basic, "vanilla" CDOs consist of a pool of debt securities, or bonds, that are split up into securities. The bonds, and therefore ultimately the CDOs, can be backed by income flowing from corporate loans, or small business loans, or mortgages. They are then divided into different classes, or "tranches", based on how well protected the yield is. If the loans default, it is the lowest, least-protected tranche — the tranche with the highest yield — that is impacted first. The damage then moves up the ladder of tranches. Then things get more complicated. Somewhere along the way, someone created a "synthetic" CDO, which was cheaper and easier to put together and sell. In effect, synthetic CDOs involve transferring the risk of defaults from one CDO to another party. They are complex derivative instruments that, fuelled by plentiful mortgages in the booming US property market, became wildly popular in the mid-noughties. The problem was that much of it was based on puffery and misinformation — on loans given to people who simply could not afford to buy a house. "Subprime" once referred to a class of dodgy mortgages. Now it refers to the financial pain that has flowed from the inability of those mortgage holders to pay back their loans. It has spread well beyond "subprime" mortgages to the complex financial instruments created on the back of those mortgages. It has spread to rural Australia, where councils sank money into products they did not understand. So, where do the credit rating agencies come into it? Strictly speaking, the role of these agencies is to judge the risk that an entity — such as a security or bond — will default on its debt obligations. The agencies facilitate the pricing of risk. "AAA" means the entity has a negligible chance of defaulting. "BB" or "C" means it has a greater chance. They are priced accordingly — the greater the risk, the greater the return. This is an imperfect measurement of an entity's value, a fact the agencies have not tried to hide. "The rating agencies have always sought to clarify their role by stating their ratings only measure credit quality," the Bank for International Settlements notes. "They state that a credit rating is not intended to capture the risk of a decline in market value or liquidity of the rated instrument, nor should it be considered an investment recommendation. However, some investors do not seem to understand this point or simply ignore it." The rise of CDOs and other structured finance products was a boon to the agencies. They started rating CDOs in the late 1990s and synthetic CDOs in the early 2000s. These products were complex, even baffling, to unsophisticated investors. The agencies made these incomprehensible products sellable, and made themselves indispensable, by assigning them ratings. A "credit default swap" is hard to understand. Triple-A? Everyone understands what that means. Or at least they thought they did. "The (instruments) were so lacking in transparency, you needed thousands of pages of documentation to explain them," says Rob Ferguson, executive chairman of litigation funders IMF. "They needed a simple thing to whack on the front cover." But the central question is whether the ratings assigned to the CDOs properly reflected the risk involved; did they do what they were supposed to do? Alan Laubsch, from risk management group RiskMetrics Labs Asia, says they didn't for a relatively simple reason — the risk of defaults was calculated on "recently observed" historical data, in which this year's drop in US housing prices, and the corresponding drop in value of securities and derivatives linked to the US housing market, was unimaginable. "When CDOs became popular, every rating agency came up with some very simplistic models to figure out what the chance of default on these was," Laubsch says. "The US housing market didn't drop since the Great Depression. So, looking at historical data, it was inconceivable what happened. The problem with any analysis which looks at things on a historical data basis, is that history doesn't always repeat itself." But the methodology wasn't the only problem — it was the entire business model. An entity is only rated if it pays the credit rating agencies to rate it, building into the model what the European Union has described as an "inherent" conflict of interest. As regulators in the US have uncovered, it was common for the agencies to modify their calculations without explanation, the result of which may have been to grant clients better ratings on certain securities. And analysts, the supposedly independent calculators of the ratings, were involved in client discussions on fees and market share. A report on the three major rating agencies, handed down by the US Securities and Exchange Commission in July, highlights all these issues and more (while never naming which agency it is referring to). It highlights staff shortages, painting a picture of institutions struggling to cope with the boom in CDO-related work. And it quotes from internal emails — "it could be structured by cows and we would rate it" — that reveal the goings-on inside these supposed bastions of corporate impartiality. In one email, written in mid-December 2006, an agency analyst refers to the CDO market as "an even bigger monster". "Let's hope we are all wealthy and retired by the time this house of cards falters. ;o)." Sadly for the analyst in question, this was not to be. When Grange was selling Federation in late 2006, around the time that analyst wrote that email, an "A" rating granted by the respected S&P counted for a lot. So much, in fact, that even six months later, when things had turned nasty in the US home market, Grange's new parent Lehman Brothers could always point to the fact that the now-tarnished CDOs were high-rated assets. "Some commentaries have sought to lump all grades of CDOs … in a single basket," Lehman told clients in a briefing note in July 2007, according to documents lodged with the NSW Federal Court this week. "This approach is the same as taking a triple-C rated corporate bond and triple-A rated (government) bond and saying the risk and characteristics of both bonds are the same … it is not valid to take the vast majority of CDOs that (Lehman) has issued at AA- rating or better … and say they are subject to similar risks to the very low-grade CDOs that invested primarily in subprime mortgages." A bit over a year later, that advice has wound up in a revised statement of claim lodged this week by Wingecarribee Shire Council, which says it lost millions on the CDOs in question. The council is suing Lehman Brothers, the first council to make such a move. Others are considering similar action. And of course, NSW shire councils weren't the only ones to glean confidence from the bestowal of shiny ratings on rickety securities. "This is something that has happened not just in Australia, but throughout Asia and the world," Laubsch says. A month ago, the European Union admitted its own legislation led to "excessive reliance" by banks and financial institutions on credit ratings. And in a high-profile Australian example, National Australia Bank said it was likely to write off 90% of the value of its US mortgage-backed investments — worth more than $1 billion — all of which had AAA ratings. In unveiling the loss, NAB chief John Stewart was candid about the bank's internal failings, saying the securities had passed internal risk checks. But again and again, he pointed out the fact that the now near-worthless securities had been given AAA ratings. "AAA means they have a one in 10,000 chance of default," he told reporters. It was clear, he added, that the rating agencies that had assigned the CDOs AAA status had "let the whole industry down". "(They) didn't do a thorough job." By the time NAB and Stewart 'fessed up, the house of cards had faltered and then some. Worldwide, the agencies are under attack for their role in the subprime mess. The International Organisation of Securities Commissions, which describes itself as "the leading international policy forum for securities regulators", is scrutinising the rating agencies' performance against their own codes of conduct, and will report its findings later this month. The Financial Stability Forum, a group comprised of representatives from reserve banks, treasury departments and regulators from 11 Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development countries, is also looking at the sector. The EU, in effect, blames the agencies for subprime, acknowledging that it was "generally accepted" that the agencies underestimated the credit risk of structured credit products (like CDOs), and that their ratings "failed to reflect early enough" the worsening market conditions. It concluded that the rating agencies shared "a large responsibility for the current market turmoil". They aren't the only ones, of course. A slew of lawsuits have begun in the US against investment banks like Citi and Merrill Lynch, against hedge fund operators, home loan lenders, and others. The rating agencies are being sued by pension funds and, in a move announced a few weeks ago, by the State of Connecticut. This lawsuit, while not directly connected to the subprime fallout, has only added to their recent reputational damage. "We are holding the credit rating agencies accountable for a secret Wall Street tax on Main Street — millions of dollars illegally exacted from Connecticut taxpayers," said headline-friendly Connecticut Attorney-General Richard Blumenthal. The agencies have pledged to fight the claims, which they say are without merit. As Wingecarribee prepares its case against Lehman, talk is building of possible legal action in Australia against the credit rating agencies. Such a move is fraught with problems. IMF is not looking at it and, Ferguson says, "they seem a very difficult group to challenge". Why? After Enron collapsed, US investors tried suing the agencies for taking too long to downgrade Enron corporate debt. In a landmark decision, the judge ruled the agencies were expressing opinions, and so were protected under freedom of speech laws. Nonetheless, several bodies in the US are pressing on. And law company Slater & Gordon, which says it has been approached by a "large number" of investors burned by CDOs, is looking at whether there is a case for an Australian lawsuit against the agencies. Senior associate Ben Phi believes some of the councils may have "valuable claims" against rating agencies, "depending on their particular circumstances". "In order to bring a claim against a credit rating agency, it would be necessary to show that the credit report was misleading, and that the investor reasonably relied on that report when deciding to invest," Phi says. "We are aware that a number of local councils are required to invest in products that carry a minimum credit rating, and they in particular may have a valuable claim against a ratings agency." NAB has not ruled out legal action. When asked about the prospect, it said it was looking at a "range of options" on its battered CDO portfolio. "(We) will continue to monitor the market and regulatory responses to recent financial market conditions," the bank said. In Australia, that "regulatory response" includes a joint review of the agencies by the Australian Securities and Investments Commission and Treasury. A crucial aspect of the review will be the question of licensing — whether the financial services licence exemption granted to rating agencies is, in the words of Corporate Law Minister Nick Sherry, "still current or justified". Last month, at an Investment and Financial Services Association conference on the Gold Coast, ASIC commissioner Belinda Gibson acknowledged the "questions raised" about the quality of the ratings processes, identifying the agencies as one of ASIC's current priorities. "There is a wider market issue about the extent to which investors rely on the ratings agencies for their investment decisions, and whether the level of diligence and discussion undertaken by the agencies warrants this reliance," Ms Gibson said. The Age believes that ASIC and Treasury will release a consultation paper within weeks, and the final report is due by the end of the year. The agencies have pledged to co-operate. "We want to provide as much transparency as possible with regard to Moody's policies and practices," Moody's said in response to the ASIC/Treasury review. "Moody's will co-operate fully with any review initiated by the Government." The services of S&P, Moody's, and Fitch are believed to cost hundreds of thousands of dollars — up to $1 million, in fact, to rate a complex, high-profile issue. S&P, which has the biggest presence in Australia, is owned by the McGraw-Hill group of companies, which made $US1 billion ($A1.2 billion) in net income in 2007. S&P has about 130 employees in Australia, or did at the end of last year. According to its latest financial statements, lodged with ASIC, S&P Australia made $5.4 million in profit in the year to December 2007 — a huge fall from the $13.1 million recorded in 2006. This drop in profit and revenue it attributed to "the turmoil in global financial markets", despite the fact that its parent company, the global S&P group, managed to raise operating income by 13% over the same period, with operating profit of $US1.3 billion. Fitch Group, which is owned by French company Fimalac, recorded an 18% drop in profit in the six months to March 31, to €79.2 million ($A137 million). Fitch Australia, according to financial statements lodged with ASIC, had just 23 staff at September 30, 2006, and lost $2.23 million in the nine months to September 30, 2006 (the latest information available). Moody's Investment Services is listed on the New York Stock Exchange, and generated $US1.1 billion in operating income last year. It generates 60% of its business in the US, and classifies Asia Pacific as an "emerging market". It has about 60 "ratings professionals" in Australia. Two years ago, few questioned the accuracy of the ratings processes the agencies used. Professor Ramsay recalls attending an International Organisation of Securities Commissions conference in 2005 where the issue of conflicts of interest within credit rating agencies was raised. "It wasn't such a big issue," Prof Ramsay says. "It seems like a generation ago now." Now, everything is being questioned. Among the other faults uncovered in the SEC report, one crucial failing was the area of "surveillance" — the tracking of a security after it is granted that initial rating. Surveillance was poorly documented and two of the agencies had no formal procedures in place. Securities given high ratings were allowed to disintegrate before being downgraded — the NSW Cole Commission noted that some Grange Securities CDOs were still rated "A" by S&P, even when they were worth just 15% of their original value. Laubsch says the agencies were slow to respond to what was "clear deterioration" in the subprime market. They did not start the bulk of their subprime ratings downgrade until mid-July 2007, despite clear warning signs (not least the implosion of the two Bear Stearns subprime hedge funds in May). The agencies have since moved to shore up their processes and rehabilitate the thing on which their whole business model depends: their reputations. "We haven't waited for the (ASIC/Treasury) review to take steps that we believe will help improve our credit ratings process," says John Bailey, managing director of S&P in Australia and New Zealand. Bailey says that in February, S&P announced action to "further strengthen" its credit ratings process, enhance its analytics and provide more transparency to the market. Moody's released an update last month on measures that it says settle the concerns expressed by "both the private and public sectors", including improving surveillance, separating non-rating and rating activities to prevent conflicts of interest, and improving transparency. Fitch did not respond to questions. Perhaps the agencies' best defence, in the end, is the argument that investors only have themselves to blame if they rely too much on ratings. They are, after all, just that: credit ratings. They are not recommendations to buy or sell. They are not audited opinions of a company's financial soundness. "I don't think it's as simple as blaming the credit rating agencies," Laubsch says. "We have to learn to ask, 'if there's extra return, where is the risk?' And don't rely on any single information source; get as many perspectives as possible." Westpac chief executive Gail Kelly has not commented on the woes afflicting Westpac's Melbourne-based competitor, NAB. But late last month, she made a not so subtle reference to the situation. Kelly produced a note from November 2006 recording a discussion among Westpac executives about CDOs, and whether the bank should invest in them. Among the factors considered was Westpac's lack of knowledge about CDOs, and the reliance on rating agencies that would result. Part of the discussion went: "Product knowledge is important. Some of the asset classes mentioned are not ones where we have a natural competitive advantage. Relying on the rating agencies is one of the mistakes we've made in the past, where the minimum rating of A- was not the protection we thought it was." As Kelly observed, the investments were not made. From lalitambardar at hotmail.com Thu Sep 18 20:47:02 2008 From: lalitambardar at hotmail.com (Lalit Ambardar) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 15:17:02 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Why Kashmir Erupts? In-Reply-To: <169ff67c0809170854l4f0df4c2n39afb8894228748b@mail.gmail.com> References: <169ff67c0809170854l4f0df4c2n39afb8894228748b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: He is a known mouth piece of the proponents of ‘azadi- bara- e- Islam’, who uses archival material selectively to espouse the cause of Kashmiri Pan Islamists. Ethnic cleansing of aboriginal Kashmir Hindu Pandits at the hands of zealots in the valley has never evoked any response from him & his ilk (there are many on this forum as well….). It is preposterous to describe the recent nationalist movement for the allocation of Amarnath land in Jammu as communal on the one hand and extend support & sympathy to those who exhibited rabid intolerance in the streets of Srinagar against the land transfer to the Hindu state subjects for putting up temporary facilities along the arduous pilgrimage route. Macabre events that shook the Indian subcontinent pre & post ‘two nation theory based partition’ can not been be referred to selectively. It was the humanity that suffered throughout the subcontinent then. Islamic marauders from Pakistan who invaded Kashmir then perpetuated worst form of brutalities in their campaign. Credulous Kashmiri Muslim masses will continue to suffer as along as the ‘agent provocateurs’ are there to instigate them in the name of religion. Regards all LA ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 16:54:20 +0100> From: nazoshmasi at googlemail.com> To: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: [Reader-list] Why Kashmir Erupts?> > Dear all,> > I came across this rather interesting piece on Kashmir, written by A.G> Noorani. I say -interesting- because despite his acute analysis,> despite his display of archival wealth, and despite his good> intentions, Mr.Noorani, refuses to acknowledge the slaughter of> Kashmiri Pandits by Muslims and their eventual flight.> > May be this was just an oversight or maybe he did it purpose but> nevertheless I hope all those who have not had the opportunity to read> it will benefit from it.> > Best> > Nazneen Anand Shamsi> ------------------------------> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> > > Frontline> Volume 25 - Issue 19 :: Sep. 13-26, 2008> INDIA'S NATIONAL MAGAZINE> from the publishers of THE HINDU> > > > Printer Friendly Page Send this Article to a Friend> > ESSAY> > WHY JAMMU ERUPTS> > A.G. NOORANI> > Is New Delhi about to repeat Nehru's blunder of 1953?> > CHANNI ANAND/AP> > Protesters in Jammu throw stones at policemen on August 26.> > THE Jammu province of the State of Jammu and Kashmir has a regional> identity with a rich past and a composite culture. It has produced> scholars, artists, poets and writers of high distinction. After 1947,> the Sangh Parivar foisted a communal identity on it precisely at a> time when Sheikh Muhammad Abdullah, the foremost leader of Jammu and> Kashmir State with a Muslim majority, moved for its accession to> India. He was attracted by its secular ideals symbolised by Mahatma> Gandhi and Jawaharlal Nehru. Gandhi said at a prayer meeting on> November 28, 1947: "You see Sheikh Abdullah with me… [who] although a> pucka Muslim, has won the hearts of both [Hindus and Sikhs] by making> them forget that there is any difference between the three> [communities]…. Even though in Jammu recently the Muslims were killed> by the Hindus and the Sikhs, he went to Jammu and invited the evil> doers to forget the past…." (Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi; volume> 90, page 123).> > There were Muslims in the valley who were opposed to the accession;> there were forces in Jammu who resented the transfer of power from a> "Hindu" Maharaja to a "Muslim" leader. The Maharaja's son, Karan> Singh, resented that "Dogra rule had in effect been replaced by> Kashmiri rule".> > In October 1987, Jammu erupted in fury when Farooq Abdullah, at Rajiv> Gandhi's behest, ended the Darbar Move by which the government> functioned alternately from Srinagar and Jammu every six months. It> was not communal but regional self-assertion. But, in August 2008, it> was not Jammu but the communal forces there that took to the streets> under a false regional garb. The issue of allotment of land to the> Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board (SASB), a legacy of the former Governor> S.K. Sinha's communal agenda, was badly handled by Chief Minister> Ghulam Nabi Azad for his own ends in a manner that offended Muslim and> Hindu feelings.> > But while in the valley the people led the leaders and the campaign> was spontaneous, in Jammu the Rashtriya Swayamsewak Sangh (RSS) acted> after preparation and in pursuit of its resolution of June 30, 2002,> for the break-up of the State into three parts. New Delhi's brutal> clamp-down in the valley on August 24, following mammoth and unarmed> rallies, is in glaring contrast to its kid-glove treatment of Jammu.> It is a replay of what happened in 1953 when Nehru confided to his> friend B.C. Roy, Chief Minister of West Bengal, on June 29: "It is> difficult to speak openly about the injurious results of this> movement. It has made the Kashmir problem far more difficult than it> ever was. Before this movement was started, I had little doubt in my> mind that the final decision about Kashmir would be in our favour,> however long it might take. But this movement has upset all my> calculations and weakened our position in Kashmir terribly. I am for> the moment talking about the Kashmir Valley only. As you know, the> people in the Valley are over ninety per cent Muslim. The reaction of> the Jammu Praja Parishad movement on them has been very great. They> have become frightened of the communal elements in Jammu and in India> and their previous wish to be attached to India has weakened. Indeed,> at the moment, all the hostile forces against us are dominant in> Kashmir…. The whole difficulty has been about the Valley of Kashmir> and we are on the point of losing it because of the Praja Parishad> movement.> > "Psychologically we have lost it and it would be difficult to get back> to the older position. You will appreciate how it has distressed me to> see the hard work of several years washed away by this movement. In> the ultimate analysis, we gain Kashmir if we gain the goodwill of the> people there" (emphasis added, throughout; Selected Works of> Jawaharlal Nehru; volume 22, pages 203-205). In 2002, the RSS admitted> that in 1952 it had "agitated in the name of Praja Parishad". Nehru> tried to "control" the situation by arresting Abdullah on August 9,> 1953, and inflicted a wound that has still not healed. Is New Delhi> about to repeat that mistake in 2008?> > Three factors must be borne in mind – the preparations behind the> Jammu disorders, the RSS' trifurcation agenda, and its roots.> Dharmendra Rataul of The Tribune reported from Madhopur as early as> August 5 that "hundreds" of Shiv Sainiks and Bajrang Dal men, led by> Dinesh Kumar Babbu, a Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) Member of the> Legislative Assembly, had "blocked the NH-1A linking J&K with the rest> of the country. Punjab BJP leaders including two State Ministers> camped 10 km away." He cited the details. Azad remarked on August 4:> "There have been four delegations of the BJP going there in the past> one month and they call it spontaneous. The BJP is backing the> Sangharsh Samiti and is funding it" (Indian Express, August 5). Anil> Anand reported in DNA (August 11) that the RSS was "tightening its> hold over the BJP" to implement its agenda and had selected an RSS> loyalist, Leela Karan Sharma, as chairman of the Amarnath Sangharsh> Samiti.> > Anuradha Bhasin Jamwal, executive editor of Kashmir Times, published> from Jammu, wrote a detailed report in Communalism Combat (July-August> 2008): "That the protests in Jammu were not marked by spontaneity but> by a steady build-up is evident from the fact that in the first few> days of the agitation only a few protesters, supporters of the Sangh> Parivar, were out on the streets. Gradually, the numbers started> swelling into thousands" to join in "the violent protests". Television> channels were not curbed, as they were in Srinagar from August 24,> when they "worked to complement mass mobilisation campaigns by the> Bajrang Dal, the VHP and the RSS". No praise can be too high for> Anuradha or her father, Ved Bhasin, the paper's founder, for standing> by the values of secularism and honest journalism throughout these> difficult years.> RSS agenda> > The RSS' agenda was mooted almost from the time of the State's> accession to India. Its prime mover was none other than Maharaja Hari> Singh, as Nehru wrote to Vallabhbhai Patel on April 17, 1949, after> reading an intelligence report from Kashmir: "In this report, among> other things, a reference was made to a growing Hindu agitation in> Jammu province for what is called a zonal plebiscite. This idea is> based on the belief that a plebiscite for the whole of Kashmir is> bound to be lost and, therefore, let us save Jammu at least. You will> perhaps remember that some proposal of this kind was put forward by> the Maharaja some months back. It seems to me that this kind of> propaganda is very harmful, indeed, for us. Whatever may happen in the> future, I do not think Jammu province is running away from us. If we> want Jammu province by itself and are prepared to make a present of> the rest of the State to Pakistan, I have no doubt we could clinch the> issue in a few days. The prize we are fighting for is the valley of> Kashmir.> > "This propaganda for a zonal plebiscite is going on in Jammu, in Delhi> and elsewhere. It is carried on by what is known as the Jammu Praja> Parishad. Our intelligence officer reported that this Praja Parishad> is financed by the Maharaja. Further, that the large sums collected> for the Dharmarth Fund, which are controlled by the Maharaja, are> being spent in propaganda for him" (Sardar Patel's Correspondence> 1945-50; volume 1, page 262).> > It had no effect on Patel because he had ranged himself for Hari Singh> and against Abdullah. Only three months after Jammu and Kashmir's> accession to India, Hari Singh threatened secession in a letter to> Patel dated January 31, 1948: "Sometimes I feel that I should withdraw> the accession that I have made to the Indian Union. The Union only> provisionally accepted the accession…" (ibid, page 167). He was, of> course, not reprimanded by Patel.> > General K.M. Cariappa reported to Nehru that "the Maharaja's> brother-in-law was openly carrying on a campaign against Sheikh> Abdullah and his government and issuing pamphlets of this kind". Nehru> added that in an intelligence report "mention was made of the Yuvraj> [Karan Singh] getting mixed up with this business" (ibid, page 262).> > To Patel, Nehru "after all… is also a Hindu and... a Kashmiri Hindu",> "a patriot", and Kashmir was "a Hindu State situated in Muslim> surroundings" (ibid, pages 3 and 4).> > Shyama Prasad Mookerjee resigned from Nehru's Cabinet in 1950 and set> up the Jana Sangh, with the RSS' support, on October 21, 1951. Nehru> called it the "illegitimate child of the RSS" (The Hindu; January 6,> 1952). Mookerjee was in search of a plank. Kashmir came in handy. He> asked Nehru in a letter on January 9, 1950, that if a plebiscite were> held "what will be the fate of Jammu in case the majority of the> people, consisting of Muslims, vote against India?" He dilated on "the> peculiar characteristics of different parts" of the State.> > Karan Singh revived his father's plans. On November 14, 1965, he> confirmed to Neville Maxwell of The Times (London) his ideas on> trifurcation. Kuldip Nayar, who headed the United News of India,> reported his views at length – "a unilingual Kashmiri-speaking State";> Jammu's merger with Himachal Pradesh; and Ladakh to become a Union> Territory. Jammu and Kashmir was an "administrative monstrosity".> There was no "sanctity behind" it. His family had brought the two> parts together through conquest and he as successor would say that> "the sooner the present arrangement was ended the better it would be."> (He had written differently to Nehru earlier.)> > B.K. Nehru became Governor of Jammu and Kashmir on February 26, 1981.> "The only real briefing that I got was from Tiger (Karan Singh) who> put the State of Jammu and Kashmir in correct perspective for me. He> explained that the State was a wholly artificial creation, its five> separate regions being joined together by the historical accident that> Raja Gulab Singh had conquered all the territories over which his> father Maharaja Hari Singh was ruling at the time of Independence and> Partition. Those five different entities had nothing in common with> each other…. In our part of the State, there were three clear> divisions – Jammu, which was Hindu, Kashmir, which was Sunni Muslim> and Ladakh, one part of which was Buddhist and the other Shia Muslim.> Because of the lack of commonality between these three divisions, the> sooner they were separated the better it would be for the future"> (Nice Guys Finish Second; 1997; page 589).> > Karan Singh's statement of August 5, 2008, refers to the recent> upheaval as "a symptom of a deeper problem including the relationship> between the three regions of the State still with India" – a strange> formulation – "Kashmir, Jammu and Ladakh. The fundamental problem> needs to be looked into carefully and a national consensus arrived at,> but that can be done only after the next round of national and State> elections." He is the only one outside the BJP to call for Governor> N.N. Vohra's ouster.> > As Union Home Minister, L.K. Advani set the ball rolling calculatedly> at Leh on June 7, 2000. He knew he was on charged territory. The> Ladakh Buddhist Association (LBA) had for years threatened to use> violence. A social boycott of Muslims was on for months. The ritual> qualification "within the four corners of the Constitution" is less> relevant than the fact that the Home Minister countenanced ("can> discuss") trifurcation at all and did so in the context of the memo> containing the demand which the LBA gave Prime Minister A.B. Vajpayee> that day.> Idea of trifurcation> > THE HINDU PHOTO LIBRARY> > Maharaja Hari Singh, whose last days as the ruler of Jammu and Kashmir> were marred by a massacre of Muslims.> > Constitutionally, the Centre has no right or power in this matter.> Article 3 empowers Parliament "by law" to "diminish the area of any> State". In relation to Kashmir, however, no such Bill can even "be> introduced in Parliament without the consent of the Legislature of> that State". The Centre has no business to offer to "consider" a> demand whose acceptance is the sole prerogative of Kashmir. Advani> could not have been unmindful of the chain reaction his remarks would> set off. The LBA's memo said: "We believe a lasting solution lies in> trifurcation of the State." The Times of India's correspondent summed> up the reaction in a report from Jammu published on June 14, 2000:> "Trifurcation of Jammu and Kashmir, an idea forwarded by organisations> and individuals – either as a demand or suggestion in the public> debate, set in motion by the Centre – has been given new> respectability by Union Home Minister Advani's remark… during the> Sindhu Darshan festival demanding trifurcation of the State or Union> Territory status for Leh." Buddhist protests led to the scaling down> of the tamasha.> > On June 30, 2002, the RSS' All India Workers' Conclave at Kurukshetra> adopted a resolution that asserted: "The people of Jammu think that> the solution of their problems lies in the separate statehood for> Jammu region." It also supported "the demand for U.T. [Union> Territory] status for Ladakh region". This is the agenda that is being> promoted in Jammu now.> > Jammu will be split evenly. Three of its six districts, now broken up> into 10, have a Muslim majority - Poonch (91.92 per cent), Rajouri> (60.23 per cent) and Doda (57.92 per cent). Two tehsils in Udhampur,> Gul Arnas and Gulab Garh, have a Muslim majority. Farooq Abdullah> realistically warned that these areas would not live with Jammu; the> massacres would be worse than those of 1947; and "India will be left> with two and a half districts while the so-called Greater Kashmir will> go on a platter to Pakistan eventually" (Greater Kashmir; October 3> and December 11, 2000). Mirwaiz Maulvi Umer Farooq also said "if the> Dogras of Jammu's two and a half districts want to secede from the> rest of the State… we won't oppose it either" (Indian Express; August> 10, 2008).> Massacre in Jammu> > Farooq Abdullah's reference to the 1947 massacres has a poignant ring.> His father had overlooked the ethnic cleansing of Muslims of Jammu,> under Maharaja Hari Singh's auspices, to forge a Union with India on> the basis of the ideology of secularism. As Gandhi said on November> 27, 1947, "This has not been fully reported in the newspapers"> (Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi; volume 90, page 115). It was, and> still is, little known in India. It is now being recalled in Jammu.> Here are the facts. Gandhi said on December 25, 1947: "The Hindus and> Sikhs of Jammu and those who had gone there from outside killed> Muslims there. The Maharaja of Kashmir is responsible for what is> happening there…. Muslim women have been dishonoured" (ibid, page> 298).> > In 1947, Muslims were in a 61 per cent majority in the Jammu province.> Horace Alexander wrote in the Spectator (January 16, 1948) that the> killings had "the tacit consent of State authority" and put the figure> at 200,000. On August 10, 1948, The Times (London) published a report> by "A Special Correspondent", an Indian Civil Service official who had> served in the State. He wrote: "2,37,000 Muslims were systematically> exterminated – unless they escaped to Pakistan along the border – by> all the forces of the Dogra State, headed by the Maharaja in person> and aided by Hindus and Sikhs. This happened in October 1947, five> days before the first Pathan invasion and nine days before the> Maharaja's accession to India." India was, therefore, not responsible> one bit. Hari Singh was, personally. Between 1941 and 1961, the Muslim> population of Jammu fell from 61 per cent to 38 per cent.> > In 1971 Hari Singh's complicity was fully exposed by the publication> of Nehru's letter of December 30, 1947, and the Sheikh's letter of> October 7, 1948, both addressed to Patel, significantly (Sardar> Patel's Correspondence; volume 1, 1971, pages 135 and 237).> > The Sheikh wrote: "There was enacted in every village and town through> which he [Hari Singh] passed an orgy of arson and loot and murder of> Muslims. In Jammu the killing of Muslims all over the province> continued unabated for weeks under his very nose."> > That orgy is being recalled in Jammu now. In an article entitled> "Being Muslim in Jammu", Zafar Chaudhary writes: "There was hardly any> family in the region which escaped" it. Those "events permanently> changed the way the Muslims of Jammu would live or think" (Economic &> Political Weekly; August 23, 2008). Some decided to make peace with> the BJP agitators. The BJP's State president, Ashok Khajuria, said at> a press conference on July 26: "Muslims vacate your houses... I am> warning you… else, Jammu people are ready to throw you out."> > From 1947 to 1953, these very forces undermined Sheikh Abdullah's> standing in Kashmir. In 2008, they have strengthened its demand for> azadi. It is, of course, absurd to say that land for the SASB will> affect demography. But people overreact when they are told that they> are not in a majority in their own State. Witness: Assam. In Srinagar> I was told by the 15 Corps Commander in 1995, while working on an> article for Frontline, that Kashmiri Muslims were not in a majority in> the valley itself. On August 16, 2008, S.K. Sinha said the same thing> in the Manekshaw Memorial Lecture. What is it that drives persons in> government to say such things? Imagine the impact of a similar remark> in Mumbai, for instance.> The land and the law> > Now for the land issue. In 1989, the number of pilgrims to the> Amarnath cave was only 12,000. In 2007, it was 400,000. Is there any> place of pilgrimage anywhere in India where land is sought to be> allotted or transferred in any form for the pilgrimage? Whether by> leave and licence or by lease? In law, citizens have a right to move> along any road, subject to considerations of security and the like.> When throngs gather, the organisers arrange facilities. Land need not> be allotted for that. It has not been, anywhere at any time. Neither> at the Kumbh Mela, where far greater numbers gather, nor at Gangotri> and Goumukh in Uttarakhand, where, on May 1, 2008, the BJP government> limited the number of pilgrims to 150 a day to protect the> environment. Experts have testified to the environmental degradation> already wrought on the route to the Amarnath cave. Yet, S.K. Sinha> wanted to extend the duration of the yatra and the numbers who visit> the cave.> > The Tirumala Tirupati Devasthanams (TTD) efficiently maintains 12> temples and their sub-shrines in the Tirumala-Tirupati area. The TTD> once owned 600 villages, but they were acquired by the State under the> Zamindari Abolition Act, 1950. The average income of the TTD is a> whopping Rs.800 crore. The TTD, established by the TTD Act, 1932, is> now governed by Chapter 14 of the Andhra Pradesh Charitable and Hindu> Religious Institutions and Endowments Act, 1987. A Board of Trustees> is constituted by the State government, which also appoints the chief> executive and other officials. The Tirumala hills comprise seven> peaks. The temple of Sri Venkateswara is on the seventh peak. Section> 114 of the Act empowers the State government to notify "the limits of> the Tirumala Hills area for the purpose of civic administration". It> will be deemed to be a village under the Gram Panchayats Act, 1964,> and the Public Health Act, 1939.> Sengupta report> > > Following a blizzard in August 1996, the Government of India asked> Nitish K. Sengupta, IAS (retired), and member of the Trinamool> Congress, to inquire into the tragedy in which 243 people died on the> Amarnath Yatra. Had his report, the only definitive study of the> actual state of things, not been flouted by S.K. Sinha, no disputes> would have arisen. There are two routes to the Amarnath cave. The> "traditional route" is from Srinagar – lately from Jammu – to Pahalgam> onwards. "The limited carrying capacity of the 32 km track provides> strong grounds for controlling the number of pilgrims… there should> not be more than 9,000 or 10,000 pilgrims" on the last sector. The> other route is from Sonamarg to Baltal onwards, "an alternative or> supplementary route", which, Ghulam Nabi Azad said on August 4, "is> taken barely by 10 per cent of the pilgrims".> > Sengupta recommended that the Tourism Department "should be the> administrative department responsible for conducting the yatra" plus a> Board, with the Chief Minister at its head, to "undertake primary> responsibility of looking into all matters relating to Amarnath> Yatra". At one place he calls it a "coordination committee" (page 25),> at another (page 49) a Board "to coordinate efforts of the various> agencies". It would "lay down overall policy measures" and exercise> supervision". It is the government that wields executive power.> > The yatra should start on July 1 and end on August 15 – 45 days – with> an overall ceiling of 100,000 pilgrims for the annual yatra and only> 10,000 pilgrims a day between Chandanwari and the cave. He was most> emphatic on both the duration and the ceiling on numbers (page 54).> S.K. Sinha flouted both.> > In an article in Asian Age (August 14), Sengupta opines that "as long> as only 20,000 pilgrims are there they would be able to take shelter> in existing huts and be safe".> > He considered the Baltal route as an alternative. "Almost 5 km of this> route from Sangam on the way to Baltal is extremely difficult and> risky. There cannot be any question of permitting large number of> people to travel on this track." It is "extremely slippery". The Army> holds that it is not an "immediate alternative possibility". Why then> did he recommend development of this route? If the numbers are> restricted, as he himself said, the Pahalgam route would suffice. Yet> it is on the Baltal route that the controversial land was allotted.> > He did not recommend any acquisition of land. The Jammu and Kashmir> Shri Amarnathji Shrine Board Act, 2000, set up a Board for> "upgradation of facilities" for the pilgrims with the Governor as its> head. The Board is empowered (Section 16 d) "to undertake> developmental activities concerning the area of the Shrine and its> surroundings" – and no more.> > S.K. Sinha became Governor in 2003. On July 2, 2004, a petition was> filed in the High Court at Jammu, not in Kashmir where the Amarnath> cave is situated, against the State government for just three reliefs> – it must not interfere with the SASB's decision at its meeting in New> Delhi on March 17, 2004; it must give up registration of yatris> nationwide and quotawise; and it must not authorise a private> helicopter service. No demand for land was made at that meeting at> all. Only suitable accommodation for yatris and shelters – without> allotment of land. The SASB supported the petition, "it is interesting> to note", Justice Permode Kohli remarked in his judgment on April 15,> 2005. He went far beyond the petition to grant reliefs it did not seek> and counsel it did not ask for. He ordered extension of the yatra to> two months. "The State should not object to it."> > The land issue surfaced in this judgment as an order to "permit user> of the land by the Board" to upgrade the infrastructure along the> route. The judge found the Baltal route "narrow and dangerous…." but> then found "considerable improvement" on both routes – on evidence> neither side had provided.> > On appeal, a Division Bench comprising Justices Y.P. Nargotra and V.K.> Shanji gave interim directions on May 17, 2005, "without prejudice to> the rights of the parties". No judgment was given. In regard to land,> the word "user" was not used; it was allotment. "The land to be> allotted by the Board would be only for the purposes of user." This is> allotment, not permission for user. Allotment implies transfer of> legal interest in the land, however limited. It is not sought in any> of the pilgrimages in India or anywhere else. Local bodies do not> "allot" land to bus companies. They permit them to erect stops and> shelters on the route.> > Meanwhile, on May 29, 2005, the Secretary, Forest Department, Sonali> Kumar, wife of the SASB's chief executive officer Arun Kumar, issued> orders, at his request, for diversion of land to the SASB. His and the> Governor's offensive remarks on reactions to the eventual order of> allotment on May 26, 2008, need not be recalled here (see the writer's> article "Why Kashmir erupts"; Frontline; August 1). Like the Central> Forest (Conservation) Act, 1980, the State's Act of 1997 also lays> down mandatory curbs, even for permits that forest land "may be used> for any non-forest purpose". A Cabinet resolution based on the advice> of an advisory committee is mandatory.> > The Secretary, Forest, overlooked this as did the three judges of the> High Court. Chief Minister Mufti Mohammed Sayeed rescinded the order> and stalled on S.K. Sinha's demands. The High Court stayed the> rescission.> > In a letter of January 1, 2008, S.K. Sinha contended that the Governor> is "sovereign ex-officio holder of the power… who acts on his own> personal satisfaction and not on the aid and advice of the council of> ministers… the member [of the Legislative Council] may be explained> that he does not enjoy the powers to question the decisions of the> body" (Greater Kashmir; June 12, 2008). This was insolent nonsense. As> a statutory body, the SASB is amenable to the Court's orders and also> to the Assembly's probes. S.K. Sinha even proposed to set up an> independent Amarnath Development Authority on the stretch from> Sonamarg to Pahalgam.> > Proceedings under the Act were taken only in 2007. The Law Department,> the Advocate General and Law Minister Muzaffar Hussein Beig considered> the applicability to Jammu and Kashmir of the Supreme Court's interim> directions in a case on April 27, 2007. They were not. But on November> 23, 2007, the Court gave its judgment in the case (T.N. Godavarman vs.> Union of India (2008) 2 -SCC 222). Its observations bind Jammu and> Kashmir. They were not considered before the Cabinet took the decision> on May 20 or before the government passed the order on May 26. Both> are bad in law. These facts are cited in the Forest Department's> memorandum to the Cabinet for its decision dated February 26, 2008. It> is gravely flawed and misrepresents the Advocate General and the Law> Minister.> > It is noteworthy that the Supreme Court did not clear the project in> that case although it would have helped the poor tribal people in that> area. It made important observations on balancing development with> environment concerns. In the Amarnath case, the land sought to be> given is on the alternative, and not sole, route to the cave which is> admittedly dangerous. Only a political agenda can explain such sheer> obstinacy.> > The Forest Department's order of May 2008 went beyond "user"> (paragraph 9). Arun Kumar said it was permanent and the yatra would be> for the whole year (Rising Kashmir; June 17, 2008). The State> government has now agreed to make the land available to the SASB for> three months, reportedly. It wants to give "user rights"; the SASB> wants "exclusive rights" (The Hindu; August 25). On August 30 the> Sangharsh Samiti rejected the government's proposal on the grounds> that it was not given "exclusive" rights. Within hours, the government> caved in and accepted the Samiti's diktat. It will "set aside for the> use by SASB exclusively the land in Baltal" and falsely characterise> this as land traditionally under use for the use of the yatra. The> accord is worse than the order, which never used the word "exclusive".> The duration of use will be for the yatra and also from time to time> as the SASB requires – a faint hint of user throughout the year. There> is no provision for return of land. The accord is one-sided and void:> it violates Section 2 of the Act of 1997.> > The 39.88 hectares of forest land were to be given "at Baltal and> Domail", not on the main Pahalgam route. The Sengupta Report was to be> abandoned - on the duration of the yatra and on the number of yatris.> The yatra becomes a show of political strength, not a holy pilgrimage.> The SASB's spokesman, Rajendra Mishra, said on August 18 that the> numbers would increase. The accord if concluded will be void in law.> The entire process has been irregular, most shockingly.> > It is bad enough that the Cabinet did not consider the Supreme Court's> ruling. What is shocking is that the Forest Department's memo> contained grave factual misrepresentations regarding Advocate General> Altaf Husain Naik and Law Minister Muzaffar Hussain Beig. On August> 26, Naik said in detail that the file in this case was "never"> referred to him. His observations related to a different case of> diversion of forest land. In equal detail, on August 27, Beig informed> me that his views also quoted in the memo related to a different case.> Clearly the Forest Department in its zeal pressed into service in the> Amarnath case opinions by two lawyers given in an altogether different> case and misrepresented them in effect. This vitiates the entire> process.> > No order for diversion can be made now, even under an accord, unless> the entire procedure under the Act of 1997 is undergone afresh.> Section 2 of the Act mandatorily requires advice of the advisory> committee which must be given afresh - plus "a resolution of the> Council of Ministers", which will come into being only after the next> elections.> Mailed fist for valley> > REUTERS> > Trucks stranded on a road blocked by protesters in Jammu on August 26.> > The mailed fist is reserved for the valley. The few days of mammoth> but unarmed rallies revealed nothing about popular sentiment that was> not known before. S.K. Sinha himself said: "We have been able to> control militancy in Kashmir but the mindset behind the separatist> movement is intact" (Business Standard; August 16). Precisely.> Militancy can be crushed. Alienation cannot be. It deepens with> repression. It cannot be eradicated by the crackdown on August 24> following the visit of M.K. Narayanan, National Security Adviser.> > S.K. Sinha could not have behaved as he did or even survived in office> but for the Centre's backing, mainly, but not exclusively, by Home> Minister Shivraj Patil. Even before the crackdown ordered by the> Centre, the disparity in treatment was glaring. It has become worse> since, because some in New Delhi sympathise with the agitators in> Jammu and have been consistently and notoriously hostile to the ones> in Srinagar. It is the same old story of "them" and "us". In Jammu, as> Amitab Sinha remarked, "It is significant that despite loss of public> property and defying of curfew and prohibitory orders by thousands of> people, authorities have restrained themselves from making preventive> arrests" (Indian Express; August 6). There were attacks on Muslims;> the Gujjars' huts were torched.> > Muzamil Jaleel cited specific cases in Srinagar of the Central Reserve> Police Force targeting ambulances ferrying the injured and, "in one> instance, they opened fire at the entrance to a hospital's casualty> ward" (Indian Express; August 15). Kashmir Times editorially censured> police firing "inside the emergency and casualty wards of the SMHS> hospital" (August 13).> > It is the very peaceful character of the Hurriyat's movement that> unnerved New Delhi. "The change is that there is no militancy this> time," Mirwaiz Umer Farooq said on August 16. "New Delhi cannot> dismiss the demand of Kashmiris as militancy. Now, it has to address> the issue [of Kashmir's status]."> > On August 23, a day before the crackdown, the United Jehad Council> headed by Syed Salahuddin "unanimously decided to silence the guns in> Kashmir" (Shujaat Bhukhari; The Hindu; August 24). The New York Times'> Somini Sengupta reported from Srinagar: "The main city hospital was> filled with Kashmiris shot and wounded by Indian security forces"> (International Herald Tribune; August 23). On August 24 came the> crackdown. "This is the strictest curfew in Kashmir in the past 20> years" (Indian Express; August 27). Srinagar went without newspapers> from August 24. Mediamen and even doctors with passes were beaten up.> > Whatever for? To soften the Hurriyat leaders to secure acceptance of> the new land deal? And, indeed, what follows next? When Nehru arrested> Sheikh Abdullah on August 9, 1953, he imagined that with repression> over time Kashmir would submit. It did not. It will not now, either.> Prime Minister Manmohan Singh must assert himself and, with his> liberal instincts, ask himself two questions: What will be the> consequences of appeasement in Jammu? And what will be the> consequences of the repression in Kashmir? He can arrest the drift to> disaster even now. How can elections be held in Jammu and Kashmir in> this situation?> > Burke's speech in the House of Commons on March 22, 1775, on> conciliation with rebellious America has stood the test of time: "The> use of force alone is but temporary. It may subdue for a moment; but> it does not remove the necessity of subduing again; and a nation is> not governed which is perpetually to be conquered… conciliation> failing, force remains, but force failing, no further hope of> reconciliation is left."> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Movies, sports & news! Get your daily entertainment fix, only on live.com http://www.live.com/?scope=video&form=MICOAL From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Fri Sep 19 08:35:14 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 08:05:14 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Panun Kashmir spells out agenda, says battle for homeland in crucial phase Message-ID: <6353c690809182005n5828c0eax44bcbb19926fe08a@mail.gmail.com> Panun Kashmir spells out agenda, says battle for homeland in crucial phase *HARMEET SINGH, Greater Kashmir Link - http://www.greaterkashmir.com/full_story.asp?Date=19_9_2008&ItemID=31&cat=6 * Jammu, Sept 18: Panun Kashmir Convener, Dr Agnishekhar Thursday said that the Kashmiri Pandit community had entered a crucial phase of battle to achieve the target of homeland in Kashmir. "We have entered a crucial phase of our battle and the community needs to be prepared and to grid up its loins and coordination with the nationalist forces across the country against the Islamic militancy and separatists forces operating in Kashmir," he said. Addressing the media here today he said that Panun Kashmir will hold the third world Kashmiri Pandit conference on January 19 next year. "This conference seeks to give a road map to the community for the attainment of homeland," he said. "A special feature of the conference shall be the participation of the representatives of over 55 lakh Saraswat Brahmins who trace their ancestry to Kashmir. These Saraswat Brahmins scattered across the country, have their origin in Kashmir and today some of them have the surnames as Kamaths, Pais, Chenoys, Rais, Padhgaokars, Bhatts, Kesarvanis to name a few." He said that in view of the success of recent Amarnath agitation and endorsement of Panun Kashmir's stand for a separate homeland in Kashmir by the BJP, the socio-political spectrum of Jammu has shown near unanimity on the demand for homeland in Kashmir valley. "In this world conference Panun Kashmir envisages that we shall cooperate and support the nationalistic aspirations of the people of Jammu and Laddakh who have suffered discrimination and neglect for the over sixty years at the hands of Kashmir centric politicians," he said. "Panun Kashmir will provide a platform for the people of Jammu and Laddakh to articulate their views before a national audience". He urged the government that "15000 posts of Kashmiri Pandits that have fallen vacant and subsequently filled by the local Muslims candidates and regularized by the cabinet, be reserved for the Kashmiri Pandit youth who are facing massive unemployment." From indersalim at gmail.com Fri Sep 19 08:35:33 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 08:35:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] A post-national space opens. In-Reply-To: <13df7c120809172038m491455bw518ed46dae565d39@mail.gmail.com> References: <8031BA28-E559-4475-8A1E-CB1754B59060@sarai.net> <13df7c120809172038m491455bw518ed46dae565d39@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70809182005u572414dbxa71fb3dae54af421@mail.gmail.com> Dear Rashneek Hypothetically, let us imagine that Kashmir is a free country with a constitution inspired by Islam, But with Kashmiri Pandits, never driven out, well protected. My guess is that you will still run away from that 2nd class citizenship. Right. This is what both Roy and Shuddha talk about, that why non-muslim population of J&K should live under a Nizam inspired by Islamic codes. My idea is that even majority of Muslim population of J&K too will face an equal disquiet if such a system is imposed on them. This is not 1008 AD, but 2008. Here, SAS Geeelani may see nothing wrong in it, but those who are interested in questioning will not be content with his claim. But if we deny the chance to ' the middle path' what I call questioning part here, if we will become frigid and rigid in our stands, the valley politics will actually go in the hands of fascist right winged politicians. Unfortunately, that has happened. I have heard once some Jamat-i-islami leader saying that we understand RSS and its politics quite well, but we are confused with this Secularism in India. The same is true about RSS in their understanding of radical Islamic forces. For example, they both support each other as and when there is a Hussain like Issue, with some exceptions here or there, generally I see them as two sides of the same coin. So technically, with present Indian policies towards Kashmir, as Amar Nath land deals, or the law that only a Hindu Governor in J&K can be given the charge of Amarnath shrine Borad, will actually push the whole Kashmir in the hands of that Medieval right winged politics. Then any possible negotiations in future will take place between an Advani or a Geelani kind of politician. Few years back in a seminar after Muusharaf took over from Nawaz, I was surprised to hear from a Retired Army General in IIC that the Kashmir affairs should be directly handed over to the Army, because only Army understand Army. You can see actually, here in India too we have potential Generals in uniform who are quite willing to occupy the presidential hot seat. So ironically, I see you more a friend of Azadi in Kashmir than say Arundhati Roy. Opinions like Roy's are actually making it difficult for Azadi seekers in Kashmir. It is not easy in any case, but the demand to look inside will make it more difficult for them, which everybody avoids, be it here or there. The job of the sceptic is to make life difficult for others and for the self at the same time. By sceptic, I mean, open to that doubt which pushes the discourse to deeper layers of thought. There is probably no full stop, which is not perhaps good for a simple journalistic reporting, and taking easy sides from time to time. Full stops are like status quos, which signify ' death'. Life is like water and it moves. I think some tears behind tears makes you sceptic. I am hearing the popular song by Vijay Malla : andrim chugusish, daarav kien phat phat naran. Nathnan aalav saan che pharan kaaman vattan, manahy kah gov, sahravan manz naag vuzaan. Luk yaad chaanan…. ( inner voice is crying aloud through the windows of being. Our truest expression are wandering in unknown valleys. And springs would emerge in deserts if we know its meaning. People, if would listen to you …. With love is On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 9:08 AM, rashneek kher wrote: > Shudda, > > The only thing is that a Hindu Nepal did not drive out 5 lac muslims to > become a Hindu State while your Islamic Republic of Kashmir would to be > awash with the ethnic and religious cleansing of minority Pandits. > Equally interesting is the fact that you are writing these posts when you > yourself have been guilty of spreading misinformation campaign on Kashmir > either by saying that Pandits could have been killed by Ikhwans in 1989 or > that Sankarvarman destroyed Buddhist Viharas.So it is time for you to go > back to school before you can reclaim the Kashmir expert position and post > your solutions to a problem which either you dont understand or seem to > misunderstand,misrepresent and misnterpret thus. > Although one would support any resolution which would avoid further > bloodshed but to grow Chinars on Batte Mazar,well let us wait and see. > > Rashneek > > On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 2:34 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > >> Dear All, >> >> It has been a pleasure to witness the maturation of the debate on >> Kashmir, India and Azaadi on this list. Compared to where we were, >> even some months ago, the propensity towards name calling and abuse >> has gone down compared to the actual willingness to engage with the >> issues at hand,despite serious differences and disagreements. I would >> personally like to thank Sanjay Kak, Jeebesh Bagchi, Junaid Mohammed, >> Rahul Asthana, Kshmendra Kaul, Inder Salim, Partha Dasgupta, Tapas >> Ray, Radhikarajen, Radhakrishnan, Wali Arifi and Sonia Jabbar for >> all their contributions, I have gained a lot by listening and >> reading. I think we also need to thank, Arundhati Roy, Mukul Kesavan, >> A.G.Noorani and Umair Ahmed Muhajir, whose texts (forwarded on to >> this list by list members) have contributed to the depth and >> intensity of the exchanges. In all of this, one can see the Reader- >> List emerging, not just as a space for grandstanding, and the >> performance of rehearsed rhetorical routines, but as an actual space >> for thought and questioning. If this contributes in even a small way >> towards helping people think through the apparent intractability of >> the political relationships between all the peoples of Kashmir, India >> and Pakistan, then it will have redeemed its promise as a space for >> creative and imaginative discursivity in great measure. >> >> Apologies in advance for what will be a long posting. >> >> Having said all this, I would like to come back to the question that >> lies at the heart of the debate between the two positions representd >> by Roy and Muhajir. >> >> For let's look at what Roy is saying: >> >> 1. Roy's core argument can be summarized as follows : An end to the >> occupation of Kashmir by India is a price well worth paying if it is >> the means by which the dismantling of the violence that accompanies >> this occupation can be brought about. As she says towards the >> conclusion of her text "At the heart of it all is a moral question. >> Does any government have the right to take away people's liberty with >> military force?" >> >> Roy points out that too many people have died, or have been >> imprisoned, tortured or been made to disappear for us to pretend any >> longer that the continued and enforced attatchment of Kashmir to the >> project of the Indian nation state has any ethical basis. >> >> 2. Interestingly, Roy does not at any point suggest that she actually >> endorses any of the 'Islamist' or 'Secular' visions of a possible >> future Kashmir. And anyone who reads that endorsement into her text >> confuses her faithful reportage of what people may be saying on the >> streets of Kashmir with what she herself may feel. >> >> 3. Her doubts and reservations about the directions that the struggle >> for Azaadi is taking, which are listed at least 9 separate times in >> her essay (encompassing doubts about the treatement of all kinds of >> minorities, doubts about the consequences of not accounting for the >> exodus of Kashmiri Pandits, doubts about the nature of a so called >> Islamic state and so on) seem to suggest that she is amply sceptical >> of a great deal of the content of what is on offer by way of Azaadi >> in Kashmir. What she does not doubt is that people passionately >> believe that this Azaadi, (which they are either unable or unwilling >> to elaborate on) is desirable. She takes a stand which should be >> understandable to anyone with the slightest commitment to the virtues >> of democracy - if a majority of the people want something, you can >> argue with (and against ) what they want, but not with the fact that >> their is a reality to their desire. It is clear that the majority of >> people in the Kashmir valley do not want to remain committed to the >> Indian nation state. To insist that they stay committed is to ignore >> and destroy the reality of their desires. >> >> 4. Her criticism of India holding on to Kashmir may have one very >> simple point at its centre - the deeply unethical and brutal >> consequences of enforcing a form of governance on to an unwilling >> people, but her criticism of the unthought out nature of the >> intellectual response to this brutality by Kashmiris has at least 9 >> nuanced positions. These 9 positions need not be seen as signs of her >> hostility to the people of Kashmir, rather, they could be read as the >> criticism that stems from a committed, unpatronising solidarity. She >> >> 5. Personally, i found her most trenchant critique contained in the >> fragment that says (while considering what she found painful in the >> layered import of the slogan - "Nanga bhookha Hindustan, jaan se >> pyaara Pakistan (Naked, starving India, More precious than life itself >> —Pakistan). Roy says - "it was painful to listen to people who have >> suffered so much themselves mock others who suffer in different ways, >> but no less intensely, under the same oppressor. In that slogan I saw >> the seeds of how easily victims can become perpetrators." >> >> Seeing 'the seeds of how easily 'victims can become perpetrators' is >> seeing what nationalism, and the dream of national liberation >> actually means. And the one thing that Roy cannot be faulted for, at >> least in this article, is an inability to see and countenance the >> possibility of 'victims becoming perpetrators'. All nationalism, >> anchors its moral legitimacy in the idea that 'yesterdays victims, >> cannot do to others what has been done unto them'. Roy does not share >> in this delusion, and her essay while it is being read in India as a >> critique of the Indian state (which it no doubt is) would also no >> doubt be read in Kashmir as a critique of the painful limitations and >> narrow bandwidth of imagination of Kashmiri nationalism (and indeed >> of all nationalisms, of all ideologies that speak for and on behalf >> of 'nations in waiting') >> >> Now let us turn to the core of Muhajir is saying. I go along with >> much of what Muhajir says, and I find his arguments against >> 'nationalism' per se. compelling. Things turn a bit different >> however, the moment when he begins to qualify 'nationalisms' and >> weigh different kinds of nationalism as 'lesser' and 'greater' evils. >> >> After much ado, Muhajir's basic premise is as follows - the >> continuation of the occupation is a price well worth paying for the >> sake of the sake of the lesser of two evil's in so far as types of >> nation state are concerned. Muhajir believes that an independent >> Kashmiri Nation-State would inherently tend towards affirming an >> exclusionary principle, and that the Indian model of the nation >> state, for all its flaws, still retains the value of being an >> 'inclusive, pluralistic' (albeit imperfectly inclusive and >> pluralistic) model for a nation-state building. >> >> "they (nation states) are not all inhuman in precisely the same way; >> nor are they all equally inhuman, by which I simply mean that they >> are not all equally incapable of accommodating human difference, >> whether communitarian or otherwise." >> >> Let us ask, precisely how the Indian nation state has proved to be >> 'capable' of accomodating human difference? Without going into a >> great deal of detail, I would like to focus on the simple fact that >> the continued operation of the Armed Forces Special Powers Act, in >> Kashmir, and parts of the North East takes away the constitutional >> guarantee that the state provides to its citizens that they will not >> be deprived of life and liberty without due process of law. The AFSPA >> empowers Armed Forces Personnel to kill, detain and destroy the >> property of the people who happen to be under its jurisdiction with >> impunity. >> >> This means, that at least insofar as the basic guarantee of life is >> concerned, the areas where the AFSPA operates are not instances where >> the state demonstrates an 'equal capability to accommodate human >> difference'. For a Kashmiri, (and for someone in the North East) who >> has had to deal with death and disappearance as sanctioned under the >> AFSPA, the difference between being a Kashmiri, A Naga, a Manipuri >> and some other kind of 'Indian' can mean the difference between life >> and death. >> >> That this situation has continued to be sustained by the Indian state >> for 18 years in Kashmir, and 50 years in the North East, means that >> the Indian state does view the people who happen to live in these two >> vast swathes of territory in a somewhat different light. This is no >> longer something that can be viewed as an 'aberration' or as state >> excess. It is the way in which the Indian state functions 'normally' >> in Kashmir and in the North East. It 'accommodates' the difference of >> their people by maintaining the highest 'military to civilian' ratio >> in Kashmir and by the daily humiliations that it visits on a people >> it treats as its 'subjects' as a matter of stable policy because they >> happen to inhabit tracts of territory that are 'strategically' >> important for reasons of state. >> >> I have no doubt at all about the fact that the resistance to the >> Indian state that crystallizes in these areas, (whether in the form >> of the NSCSN (IM) or (K) or the PLA or the different factions of the >> miltiant resistance and their overground supporters in Kashmir) often >> occupy a space that is as auhoritarian as that occupied by the Indian >> state. But the people who inhabit these areas cannot be expected to >> rely on one form of authoritarianism to protect them from the >> depredations of another. >> >> In fact there is a rough equivalence in the two apparently >>diametrically opposite positions that say either 'no discussion and >> debate about what exactly 'independence' means until the Indian state >> vacates the territory' and 'no withdrawal of armed forces and special >> laws until the end of the insurgency'. Both of these positions need >> to be rejected. Roy does not fall into the trap of endorsing one in >> order to battle the other, in fact her explicit demand to her >> Kashmiri audience is to actually wrestle with the necessity of >> articulating the contours of the future that they desire for >> themselves. She says - >> >> "it is time for those who are part of the struggle to outline a >> vision for what kind of society they are fighting for. Perhaps it is >> time to offer people something more than martyrs, slogans and vague >> generalisations. Those who wish to turn to the Quran for guidance >> will no doubt find guidance there. But what of those who do not wish >> to do that, or for whom the Quran does not make place? Do the Hindus >> of Jammu and other minorities also have the right to self- >> determination? Will the hundreds of thousands of Kashmiri Pandits >> living in exile, many of them in terrible poverty, have the right to >> return? Will they be paid reparations for the terrible losses they >> have suffered? Or will a free Kashmir do to its minorities what India >> has done to Kashmiris for 61 years? What will happen to homosexuals >> and adulterers and blasphemers? What of thieves and lafangas and >> writers who do not agree with the "complete social and moral code"? >> Will we be put to death as we are in Saudi Arabia? Will the cycle of >> death, repression and bloodshed continue? History offers many models >> for Kashmir's thinkers and intellectuals and politicians to study. >> What will the Kashmir of their dreams look like? Algeria? Iran? South >> Africa? Switzerland? Pakistan?" >> >> The discussion on this list has extended the logic of this demand. We >> have had people, especially Jeebesh, talk of the possibility of 'post >> national' paths as concrete possibilities, Sonia Jabbar has spoken of >> 'confederal South Asia', Rahul Asthana has spoken of a 'Hong Kong' >> like arrangement. All of these are as valid options as >> 'independence', and need to be considered in turn. >> >> Muhajir's text, actually does not offer us this range of >> possibilities. In the end, it asks Kashmiris to reconcile themselves >> to the brutality of the Indian occupation simply on the basis of the >> fact that it comes garbed in a normatively 'inclusive' form of >> nationalism. Actually, when a boot kicks your face in, it is a bit >> odd to console oneself with the fact that the boot happens to be a >> happily 'secular' one. I don't quite see how doing so could possibly >> relieve the agony of having your face kicked in. Even so, I welcome >> the fact that it has acted as a catalyst in terms of leading us >> towards the possibility of hinking this through outside the familiar >> and exhausted tropes of nation states. >> >> So, what might a future Kashmir be. Let me throw my own two bits into >> the ring, following on the lines sketched out by Jeebesh. In doing >> this, I take the term 'Azaadi' seriously, and interpret it to mean >> the liberation, not only from external, but also 'internal' >> domination, and it is this that colours my perspective on possible >> futures for Kashmir. >> >> 1. Demilitarization of Jammu and Kashmir. The 700,000 Indian soldiers >> in Indian Occupied Kashmir to withdraw, (south of Jammu) the 50,000+ >> Pakistani soldiers in Pakistani Occupied Kashmir to withdraw (west of >> POK and Northern Areas). All militias (insurgent or counter >> insurgent) and paramilitaries to decommission weapons and demobilize >> under international observation (as happened in Northern Ireland) . >> The process of withdrawal, decommissioing and demobilizing to take >> place under the auspices of an international body within a UN mandate >> (as happened in East Timor and Bosnia). A UN peacekeeping force to be >> stationed in Kashmir, paid for by the Governments of India, Pakistan >> and China (as reparations) This could have peacekeepers from Bosnia, >> East Timor, Iraqi Kurdistan, Norway and Lebanon. >> >> 2. A cooling period of five to seven years, during which Jammu and >> Kashmir (including present day 'Azad' Kashmir, Northern Areas in >> Pakistan and Ladakh in India as well as the Aksai Chin and Karakorum >> regions ceded or annexed by China) is governed as a UN mandated >> territory, with full local autonomy, with the presence of the UN >> Peacekeeping Force at limited levels. Normal, unrestricted political >> activity, complete freedom of speech and association and local >> governance to determine quesitons of local importance. Free movement >> of people, and free trade, across the LOC. People of J&K to be issued >> special travel documents for 'stateless people'. People of India, >> Pakistan, Afghanistan, Tibet and Central Asian republics can travel >> without visas to J&K. All others to receive visas on arrival, >> Adminstered by the UN administration. Eventually, people in J&K to be >> given the freedom to opt for cascading forms of dual citizenship. J&K >> to have a twenty year tax holiday, fiscal burden of administration to >> be on the UN. People not domiciled in J&K not to have the right to >> own property in land in the region. >> >> 3. All displaced people (including those displaced in 1947, 1965, >> 1971, 1989 and after) of all denominations (Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist >> and others) to be allowed right of honourable return, with >> reparations in the event of loss or destruction of property. >> Indigenous Nomadic peoples to have freedom of movement across the >> entire territory of J&K. >> >> 4. A constituent assembly to be set up during the five year cooling >> period on the basis of universal adult franchise, to discuss the >> future constitutional arrangements for J&K. Plebiscite to be held, >> under UN auspices, with the presence of international observers, >> after five years to determine the exact nature of constitutional >> arrangements. The constituent assembly is to be guided to develop >> models of statehood without the necessity of a standing army, >> (Japan's post war constitution can be a basis for a state which gives >> up the right to conduct war and maintain a standing army) so that a >> future free territory of Kashmir does not represent a threat to any >> of its neighbours. India. Pakistan and China, to give guarantees to >> protect the independence and sovereignty of Kashmir, to undertake not >> to invade or station their armed forces in J&K. J&K to be declared a >> 'zone of peace' with special heritage protection for all religious >> and culturally important sites and environmentally fragile zones. >> >> 5. I am not averse to an EU style South Asian Union, especially if it >> provides for freedom of movement between the different parts of South >> Asia, and makes borders and border controls in the region irrelevant. >> In some ways, I think that this will be inevitable. But the terms for >> participation in this union need to be democratic and equitable. It >> hardly matters to me as to whether the people of J&K participate >> within this arrangement as 'Indians', 'Pakistanis' or as >> 'Independent' or as 'members of a 'post national entity'. The crucial >> thing is, if they do not want to participate in this arrangement as >> 'Indians', nothing should compel them to do so. >> >> I see all of the above as practical and realizable goals. The most >> important obstacle is the presence of large bodies of official and >> informal armed men, once those are removed, anything is possible. >> There are many territories in the world, ranging from the Aaland >> Islands, to Andorra, to Northern Ireland, to Hong Kong, to South >> Tyrol whose constitutional contours contain elements that may be >> useful for thinking 'out of the box' solutions to the Kashmir >> dispute. In fact the so called step by step formula put forward by >> Musharraf during the Agra Summit had a lot that could have been >> thought through >> >> Siddharth Varadarjan, writing in 'Newsline' has provided a useful >> summary of some of these possibilities, see - >> http://www.newsline.com.pk/NewsNov2004/cover3nov2004.htm >> >> Whatever be the possibilities, they will probably need a >> comprehensive measure of demilitarization to become workable. >> Demilitarization, in its simplest and most effective sense means the >> 'abolition of the standing army'. >> >> It needs to be remembered, that for about fifty odd years, the >> 'abolition of the standing army' was the standard demand of every >> respectable socialist, social democratic, anarchist and working class >> party in the world from the mid nineteenth century onwards. The >> abolition of standing armies was a mainstream, respectable slogan, it >> had nothing dreamy or utopian about it. The first world war put an >> end to this vigorous tradition of practical pacifism in the >> International Working Class Movement. Perhaps the future of Kashmir >> can bring this utterly human demand back on the agenda for the rest >> of the world in a real sense. If Kashmiri people, and their >> leaderships seize this opportunity to demand an abolition of standing >> armies on their territory they will have made a fundamental >> contribution to world history. I sincerely hope that they respond >> positively to the challenge that this opportunity represents. >> >> --------------------------------- >> Finally, a word about the confessional character of a state, or its >> secular, or non secular basis. As a person with no interest >> whatsoever in perpetuating the nation state as a form of human >> organization, I refuse to make the case for 'secular' states as being >> necessarily better or worse than 'non secular' ones. I think that >> states need to be judged, not on their formal accotrements, but on >> their actual conduct. >> >> Technically, the United Kingdom is not a secular state. The United >> Kingdom has a an official state church, and the head of state is also >> the head of the Church of England. Yet, it treats its minorities >> better than say, Turkey, or France, both of which are secular state. >> Saudi Arabia is a nightmare of a non secular state, and China is a >> nightmare of a secular state, insofar as issues pertaining to the >> freedom of conscience is concerned. IN our own neighbourhood, the >> Indian state has lived quite happily with the fact that until >> recently, Nepal was an autocratic, theocratic monarchy within the >> hands of a single corrupt dynasty. This dynasty also bankrolled Hindu >> fundamentalist outfits in India, and at one time offered refuge (as a >> fleeing tyrant) to Indira Gandhi after she had been defeated in 1977. >> I have never heard anyone say that Nepal's theocratic, corrupt, >> autocratic monarchy was a problem for anyone other than the people of >> Nepal (and they have quite competently got rid of that problem). I do >> not hear people say that where a revived Lama State in Tibet to >> exist, it would be a problem for India. Why then would the >> possibility of an Islamic, or even an Islamist state in Kashmir (if >> at all that came to pass, which may or may not be likely) be a >> necessary problem for India, If anything, it should be a problem (if >> it were to be a problem) that the people of Kashmir would have to >> deal with, in their own fashion, in their own time. >> >> Those of us who believe that the state should not interfere in the >> private lives of people, and in matters of faith, conscience and >> doubt, would find ways of supporting that struggle, if it were to >> take place, in a possible future Kashmir. If it were not to take >> place, I would advise that we reconcile ourselves to the presence of >> an Islamic Kashmir in our neighbourhood, exactly as we have >> reconciled ourselves to a Hindu State in Nepal all these decades. I >> cannot see how one can be worse than the other. >> >> regards, >> >> Shuddha >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > -- > Rashneek Kher > Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten Human Tragedy > http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com > http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Fri Sep 19 08:45:08 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 08:15:08 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?=22India_can=92t_afford_to_fall_vi?= =?windows-1252?q?ctim_to_psywar=22_-_Open_Statement?= Message-ID: <6353c690809182015rb2593b4xecb352c44d6ebf52@mail.gmail.com> India can't afford to fall victim to psywar 19 Sep 2008 01:11:00 AM IST Link - http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/story.aspx?artid=n3%7CNyKscLu8=&Title=India+can%E2%80%99t+afford+to+fall+victim+to+psywar&SectionID=XVSZ2Fy6Gzo=&MainSectionID=XVSZ2Fy6Gzo=&SEO=KASHMIR&SectionName=m3GntEw72ik= SOME stray voices in the media have been questioning, with surprising nonchalance and lack of depth, the wisdom and expediency of retaining Kashmir as a part of India. This matters not because such voices reflect any growing view in our country but because they play into the hands of enemies of the nation. Their suggestions embolden subversive forces both within and outside the country, and encourage our adversaries to entertain the hope that with a little more effort, Kashmir will secede from India. National will is a critical component of state power. In the absence of military might, psychological warfare is the weapon of choice of a devious adversary to attempt to break national will, and to also confuse and demoralise the Indian state. No nation aspiring to become a major player in global power dynamics can afford to fall victim to such psywar. India cannot and must not give any signal that could be misinterpreted to mean that its national resolve to preserve its unity and integrity is crumbling. The legal validity of Jammu and Kashmir's accession to India is unquestionable and was in accordance with the popular will. There is no basis on which any change in the political status of the state of Jammu and Kashmir could be considered. The UN itself has accepted that in the vastly changed circumstances the UN Resolutions of 1948 and 1949 are no longer relevant. In any case, there is no provision for holding a referendum only in one part of the undivided state of Jammu and Kashmir or for holding separate referenda in the three geographically distinct sections of the state. Like the other states included in the First Schedule of the Constitution of India, Jammu and Kashmir is clearly an integral part of India and will remain so. There is an unanimous resolution of the Indian Parliament of February 22, 1994 to the effect that "the state of Jammu & Kashmir has been, is and shall be an integral part of India and any attempts to separate it from the rest of the country will be resisted by all necessary means." It further adds that, "Pakistan must vacate the areas of the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir, which they have occupied through aggression." Section 3 of the Constitution of Jammu and Kashmir also plainly asserts that "the state of Jammu and Kashmir is and shall be an integral part of the Union of India." Section 147 of the Jammu and Kashmir Constitution prohibits any amendment of Section 3 by the state legislature. Kashmir is an inalienable element of India's civilisational identity and symbolises the fundamental principles on which the modern Indian state has been built. We take pride that India is a prospering economy, but the pursuit of wealth should not make us forget the values that keep our nation one. India has successfully overcome all secessionist threats faced by it. No responsible government can ever compromise India's territorial integrity by even contemplating the secession of Kashmir. This is not a trifling issue. If the Indian state is seen as weak enough to let Kashmir go, other states and disaffected groups within India will only get emboldened, leading to the unraveling of India. Secondly, as borders in the plains of northern India are not defensible, Kashmir is vital for India's security. Finally, communal harmony could be seriously compromised. Detractors of secular, democratic India tend to forget that the overwhelming majority of Indian Muslims, who constitute over 15 per cent of the population, has absolutely no sympathy for the partisan few who still fan a tired idea called secession. It is distressing, indeed alarming, that these seditious views, which question India's unity and integrity, are being freely aired by a section of the intelligentsia. It is regrettable that the print and electronic media are giving undue space and prominence to these views. India is a free and democratic country with a vibrant media and we are proud of it. But freedom of expression does not mean unbridled licence to flout the law of the land by airing or fanning seditious views. Such views also do a disservice to the people of Kashmir.We call upon the intelligentsia that has the power to shape public opinion to use their power with wisdom and maturity. Irresponsible slogans do immense damage in open and democratic polities and can mislead people to take partisan positions without understanding the grave implications. We also urge the media to exercise restraint and show responsibility in the larger national interest. As proud and patriotic Indians who strongly believe that the unity and secular democratic fabric of our republic must be preserved at all costs, we call upon the Government of India to make it unequivocally clear at the highest level that under no circumstances will the government and people of India countenance any compromise with the integrity of the nation. We also call upon the people of India and all political parties to raise their voices and come out unambiguously against secessionism in any form whatsoever. Signatories to the open statement: 1. Subhash Chandra, chairman, Essel Group 2. Maj Gen Afsir Karim (retd) 3. Ajit Doval, KC, former Director, IB 4. MJ Akbar, Renowned journalist 5. Anil Baijal, former Union Home Secretary 6. Admiral Arun Prakash (retd) former Navy Chief 7. Air Marshal S.R. Deshpandey (retd) 8. Dhirendra Singh, former Union Home Secretary 9. G Parthasarthy, IFS (retd) former Indian High Commissioner to Pakistan 10. Rajiv Sikri IFS (retd) former Secretary, Ministry of External Affairs. 11. CD Sahay, former Secretary (RAW) 12. Lt. General R.K. Sawhney (retd), former Dy Chief of Army Staff 13. Satish Chandra IFS (retd) former Deputy to National Security Advisor and Secretary National Security Counsil 14. Lt General Shantanu Chaudhary (retd), former Vice Chief of Army Staff 15. Air Chief Marshal SP Tyagi (retd) former Air Chief 16. Ved Marwah, former Director General National Security Guard and former Governor, Manipur and Jharkhand 17. Vijay Kapoor, former Lt. Governor, Delhi 18. Vikram Sood, former Secretary (RAW) 19. Sudhir Agarwal, Director Dainik Bhaskar Group20. K Memani, Chairman-Emeritus, Ernst & Young. From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Fri Sep 19 08:51:08 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 08:21:08 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised Message-ID: <6353c690809182021u4fb74001g9064d3fa5b8b2c6f@mail.gmail.com> Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised Anil Anand Friday, September 19, 2008 03:29 IST Link - http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1191501 NEW DELHI: Top personalities from diverse fields have, in a signed statement, criticised the recent airing of seditious views in the media in relation to Jammu & Kashmir. The signatories, led by Subhash Chandra, chairman of the Essel group and one of the promoters of DNA, include voices associated with the bureaucracy, the armed forces, and the media, among others. The statement, while affirming the media's right to air different views, is emphatic that "freedom of expression does not mean unbridled licence to flout the law of the land by airing or fanning seditious views. Such views also do a disservice to the people of Kashmir. We call upon the intelligentsia that has the power to shape public opinion to use their power with wisdom and maturity." The statement comes in the wake of "stray voices" in the TV and print media which openly supported the secession of Kashmir from India, in violation of a unanimous parliament resolution of 1994 which affirms J&K as an integral part of India and also asks for the return of Pakistan-occupied Kashmir. "Some stray voices in media have been questioning, with surprising nonchalance and lack of depth, the wisdom and expediency of retaining Kashmir as a part of India. This matters not because such voices reflect any growing view in our country but because they play into the hands of the enemies of the nation. Their suggestions embolden subversive forces both within and outside the country, and encourage our adversaries to entertain the hope that with a little more effort, Kashmir will secede from India," the statement says. Among the signatories to the statement are former Indian high commissioner to Pakistan G Parthasarathy, former navy and air force chiefs Admiral Arun Prakash and SP Tyagi, two former home secretaries Anil Baijal and Dhirendra Singh, eminent editor MJ Akbar and former Intelligence Bureau chief Ajit Doval. Former secretaries of the Research & Analysis Wing CD Sahay and Vikram Sood, former Delhi Lt Governor Vijay Kapoor, Bhaskar group director Sudhir Agarwal, Maj Gen Afsar Karim, Lt Gen RK Sahwney, Lt Gen Shantanu Chaudhary, former director general of the National Security Guard and ex-governor of Manipur Ved Marwah, former secretary of the National Security Council Satish Chandra, former external affairs secretary SK Sikri and the chairman emeritus of Ernst & Young K Memani have also signed the statement. The signatories assert that "Kashmir is an inalienable element of India's civilisational identity and symbolises the fundamental principles on which the modern Indian state has been built." Terming national will as a critical component of state power, they felt that "devious adversaries" have resorted to psychological warfare in order to break the national will. Responding to queries, Subhash Chandra said the initiative was guided by the fact that civil society could not sit silent when such things were happening. Civil society had the added responsibility of responding to the situation when the government preferred not to react to such objectionable writing, he said, adding: "This movement will grow and in the coming weeks more people will joint the chorus." Asked about the reasons behind these articles, journalist Akbar felt it must have happened on grounds of press freedom, but such freedom was not unbridled. "You want to enjoy the rights of the Indian Constitution without supporting it," he commented. On the issue of adopting a self-disciplinary mechanism by the media, he said it had been decided some years back to have such a system. "We could not achieve it perhaps due to our own weakness." From rashneek at gmail.com Fri Sep 19 08:55:45 2008 From: rashneek at gmail.com (rashneek kher) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 08:55:45 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] A post-national space opens. In-Reply-To: <47e122a70809182005u572414dbxa71fb3dae54af421@mail.gmail.com> References: <8031BA28-E559-4475-8A1E-CB1754B59060@sarai.net> <13df7c120809172038m491455bw518ed46dae565d39@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70809182005u572414dbxa71fb3dae54af421@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <13df7c120809182025o28f7aac6hadba16639cf7bdc6@mail.gmail.com> Dear Inder, The edifice on which the separtist movement if that is the right word to use is itself so titled in favour of Pan Islamism that even people like me who would otherwise have probably been a mute spectator if not a supporter have also been forced to take a position. If Kashmiri Muslims really want independence then they need to ask for Kashmir's independence(greater kashmir) where the language isnt Persio-arabic dialect of Kashmiri,where they acknowledge the glorious periods pre arrival of Islam,where they accept that they drove away the minorities as a part of the larger Pakistani plan,where they truly come to rebuild institutions and shrines they have desecrated,where ancient fetivals are celebrated as the festivals of the land(even Iran celebrates Id-e-Navroz and Pakistan celebrates BasanT),where as a majority community they have the magnanimity to take us equals and not infidels,where Kashmiriyat lives in essence and not in word. Where they dont shout Seeta ko Ragda,Hanuman ko Ragda(as they did in recent protests) or Ae Zalmo aey Kafiro Kashmir hamara chod do. Once the movement is truly indigeneous and not a pawn in the hands of Pakistanis and supported by Petro-Dollars,who knows what shape it can take.Since you are yourself a student of Kashmir you will know that the true Kashmiri Nationalists were people like Birbal Kachru,Kashyap Bandhu and even Nadim,the last one in particular wrote eloquently to the nation. But if he was alive today even he would cried....and written...Mae Cham ne aash pagehech.... Unfortunately the whole thing is in the hands of Choor,Chotal ti Monjeghar(This I wouldnt translate), The Shams Faqir among us is dead...so is Batwari and Ahad Zargar.I wish Abdul Ahad would come back from his grave and lead us all and I would follow in unison to true Kashmiri Nationalist. Till then I live in Exile Love Rashneek On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 8:35 AM, inder salim wrote: > Dear Rashneek > > Hypothetically, let us imagine that Kashmir is a free country with a > constitution inspired by Islam, But with Kashmiri Pandits, never > driven out, well protected. My guess is that you will still run away > from that 2nd class citizenship. Right. This is what both Roy and > Shuddha talk about, that why non-muslim population of J&K should live > under a Nizam inspired by Islamic codes. My idea is that even > majority of Muslim population of J&K too will face an equal disquiet > if such a system is imposed on them. This is not 1008 AD, but 2008. > Here, SAS Geeelani may see nothing wrong in it, but those who are > interested in questioning will not be content with his claim. > > But if we deny the chance to ' the middle path' what I call > questioning part here, if we will become frigid and rigid in our > stands, the valley politics will actually go in the hands of fascist > right winged politicians. Unfortunately, that has happened. I have > heard once some Jamat-i-islami leader saying that we understand RSS > and its politics quite well, but we are confused with this Secularism > in India. The same is true about RSS in their understanding of radical > Islamic forces. For example, they both support each other as and when > there is a Hussain like Issue, with some exceptions here or there, > generally I see them as two sides of the same coin. > > So technically, with present Indian policies towards Kashmir, as > Amar Nath land deals, or the law that only a Hindu Governor in J&K can > be given the charge of Amarnath shrine Borad, will actually push the > whole Kashmir in the hands of that Medieval right winged politics. > Then any possible negotiations in future will take place between an > Advani or a Geelani kind of politician. Few years back in a seminar > after Muusharaf took over from Nawaz, I was surprised to hear from a > Retired Army General in IIC that the Kashmir affairs should be > directly handed over to the Army, because only Army understand Army. > You can see actually, here in India too we have potential Generals in > uniform who are quite willing to occupy the presidential hot seat. > > So ironically, I see you more a friend of Azadi in Kashmir than say > Arundhati Roy. Opinions like Roy's are actually making it difficult > for Azadi seekers in Kashmir. It is not easy in any case, but the > demand to look inside will make it more difficult for them, which > everybody avoids, be it here or there. The job of the sceptic is to > make life difficult for others and for the self at the same time. By > sceptic, I mean, open to that doubt which pushes the discourse to > deeper layers of thought. There is probably no full stop, which is not > perhaps good for a simple journalistic reporting, and taking easy > sides from time to time. > > Full stops are like status quos, which signify ' death'. Life is like > water and it moves. I think some tears behind tears makes you sceptic. > > I am hearing the popular song by Vijay Malla : andrim chugusish, > daarav kien phat phat naran. Nathnan aalav saan che pharan kaaman > vattan, manahy kah gov, sahravan manz naag vuzaan. Luk yaad chaanan…. > ( inner voice is crying aloud through the windows of being. Our > truest expression are wandering in unknown valleys. And springs would > emerge in deserts if we know its meaning. People, if would listen to > you …. > > > > With love > is > > > On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 9:08 AM, rashneek kher wrote: > > Shudda, > > > > The only thing is that a Hindu Nepal did not drive out 5 lac muslims to > > become a Hindu State while your Islamic Republic of Kashmir would to be > > awash with the ethnic and religious cleansing of minority Pandits. > > Equally interesting is the fact that you are writing these posts when you > > yourself have been guilty of spreading misinformation campaign on Kashmir > > either by saying that Pandits could have been killed by Ikhwans in 1989 > or > > that Sankarvarman destroyed Buddhist Viharas.So it is time for you to go > > back to school before you can reclaim the Kashmir expert position and > post > > your solutions to a problem which either you dont understand or seem to > > misunderstand,misrepresent and misnterpret thus. > > Although one would support any resolution which would avoid further > > bloodshed but to grow Chinars on Batte Mazar,well let us wait and see. > > > > Rashneek > > > > On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 2:34 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta < > shuddha at sarai.net>wrote: > > > >> Dear All, > >> > >> It has been a pleasure to witness the maturation of the debate on > >> Kashmir, India and Azaadi on this list. Compared to where we were, > >> even some months ago, the propensity towards name calling and abuse > >> has gone down compared to the actual willingness to engage with the > >> issues at hand,despite serious differences and disagreements. I would > >> personally like to thank Sanjay Kak, Jeebesh Bagchi, Junaid Mohammed, > >> Rahul Asthana, Kshmendra Kaul, Inder Salim, Partha Dasgupta, Tapas > >> Ray, Radhikarajen, Radhakrishnan, Wali Arifi and Sonia Jabbar for > >> all their contributions, I have gained a lot by listening and > >> reading. I think we also need to thank, Arundhati Roy, Mukul Kesavan, > >> A.G.Noorani and Umair Ahmed Muhajir, whose texts (forwarded on to > >> this list by list members) have contributed to the depth and > >> intensity of the exchanges. In all of this, one can see the Reader- > >> List emerging, not just as a space for grandstanding, and the > >> performance of rehearsed rhetorical routines, but as an actual space > >> for thought and questioning. If this contributes in even a small way > >> towards helping people think through the apparent intractability of > >> the political relationships between all the peoples of Kashmir, India > >> and Pakistan, then it will have redeemed its promise as a space for > >> creative and imaginative discursivity in great measure. > >> > >> Apologies in advance for what will be a long posting. > >> > >> Having said all this, I would like to come back to the question that > >> lies at the heart of the debate between the two positions representd > >> by Roy and Muhajir. > >> > >> For let's look at what Roy is saying: > >> > >> 1. Roy's core argument can be summarized as follows : An end to the > >> occupation of Kashmir by India is a price well worth paying if it is > >> the means by which the dismantling of the violence that accompanies > >> this occupation can be brought about. As she says towards the > >> conclusion of her text "At the heart of it all is a moral question. > >> Does any government have the right to take away people's liberty with > >> military force?" > >> > >> Roy points out that too many people have died, or have been > >> imprisoned, tortured or been made to disappear for us to pretend any > >> longer that the continued and enforced attatchment of Kashmir to the > >> project of the Indian nation state has any ethical basis. > >> > >> 2. Interestingly, Roy does not at any point suggest that she actually > >> endorses any of the 'Islamist' or 'Secular' visions of a possible > >> future Kashmir. And anyone who reads that endorsement into her text > >> confuses her faithful reportage of what people may be saying on the > >> streets of Kashmir with what she herself may feel. > >> > >> 3. Her doubts and reservations about the directions that the struggle > >> for Azaadi is taking, which are listed at least 9 separate times in > >> her essay (encompassing doubts about the treatement of all kinds of > >> minorities, doubts about the consequences of not accounting for the > >> exodus of Kashmiri Pandits, doubts about the nature of a so called > >> Islamic state and so on) seem to suggest that she is amply sceptical > >> of a great deal of the content of what is on offer by way of Azaadi > >> in Kashmir. What she does not doubt is that people passionately > >> believe that this Azaadi, (which they are either unable or unwilling > >> to elaborate on) is desirable. She takes a stand which should be > >> understandable to anyone with the slightest commitment to the virtues > >> of democracy - if a majority of the people want something, you can > >> argue with (and against ) what they want, but not with the fact that > >> their is a reality to their desire. It is clear that the majority of > >> people in the Kashmir valley do not want to remain committed to the > >> Indian nation state. To insist that they stay committed is to ignore > >> and destroy the reality of their desires. > >> > >> 4. Her criticism of India holding on to Kashmir may have one very > >> simple point at its centre - the deeply unethical and brutal > >> consequences of enforcing a form of governance on to an unwilling > >> people, but her criticism of the unthought out nature of the > >> intellectual response to this brutality by Kashmiris has at least 9 > >> nuanced positions. These 9 positions need not be seen as signs of her > >> hostility to the people of Kashmir, rather, they could be read as the > >> criticism that stems from a committed, unpatronising solidarity. She > >> > >> 5. Personally, i found her most trenchant critique contained in the > >> fragment that says (while considering what she found painful in the > >> layered import of the slogan - "Nanga bhookha Hindustan, jaan se > >> pyaara Pakistan (Naked, starving India, More precious than life itself > >> —Pakistan). Roy says - "it was painful to listen to people who have > >> suffered so much themselves mock others who suffer in different ways, > >> but no less intensely, under the same oppressor. In that slogan I saw > >> the seeds of how easily victims can become perpetrators." > >> > >> Seeing 'the seeds of how easily 'victims can become perpetrators' is > >> seeing what nationalism, and the dream of national liberation > >> actually means. And the one thing that Roy cannot be faulted for, at > >> least in this article, is an inability to see and countenance the > >> possibility of 'victims becoming perpetrators'. All nationalism, > >> anchors its moral legitimacy in the idea that 'yesterdays victims, > >> cannot do to others what has been done unto them'. Roy does not share > >> in this delusion, and her essay while it is being read in India as a > >> critique of the Indian state (which it no doubt is) would also no > >> doubt be read in Kashmir as a critique of the painful limitations and > >> narrow bandwidth of imagination of Kashmiri nationalism (and indeed > >> of all nationalisms, of all ideologies that speak for and on behalf > >> of 'nations in waiting') > >> > >> Now let us turn to the core of Muhajir is saying. I go along with > >> much of what Muhajir says, and I find his arguments against > >> 'nationalism' per se. compelling. Things turn a bit different > >> however, the moment when he begins to qualify 'nationalisms' and > >> weigh different kinds of nationalism as 'lesser' and 'greater' evils. > >> > >> After much ado, Muhajir's basic premise is as follows - the > >> continuation of the occupation is a price well worth paying for the > >> sake of the sake of the lesser of two evil's in so far as types of > >> nation state are concerned. Muhajir believes that an independent > >> Kashmiri Nation-State would inherently tend towards affirming an > >> exclusionary principle, and that the Indian model of the nation > >> state, for all its flaws, still retains the value of being an > >> 'inclusive, pluralistic' (albeit imperfectly inclusive and > >> pluralistic) model for a nation-state building. > >> > >> "they (nation states) are not all inhuman in precisely the same way; > >> nor are they all equally inhuman, by which I simply mean that they > >> are not all equally incapable of accommodating human difference, > >> whether communitarian or otherwise." > >> > >> Let us ask, precisely how the Indian nation state has proved to be > >> 'capable' of accomodating human difference? Without going into a > >> great deal of detail, I would like to focus on the simple fact that > >> the continued operation of the Armed Forces Special Powers Act, in > >> Kashmir, and parts of the North East takes away the constitutional > >> guarantee that the state provides to its citizens that they will not > >> be deprived of life and liberty without due process of law. The AFSPA > >> empowers Armed Forces Personnel to kill, detain and destroy the > >> property of the people who happen to be under its jurisdiction with > >> impunity. > >> > >> This means, that at least insofar as the basic guarantee of life is > >> concerned, the areas where the AFSPA operates are not instances where > >> the state demonstrates an 'equal capability to accommodate human > >> difference'. For a Kashmiri, (and for someone in the North East) who > >> has had to deal with death and disappearance as sanctioned under the > >> AFSPA, the difference between being a Kashmiri, A Naga, a Manipuri > >> and some other kind of 'Indian' can mean the difference between life > >> and death. > >> > >> That this situation has continued to be sustained by the Indian state > >> for 18 years in Kashmir, and 50 years in the North East, means that > >> the Indian state does view the people who happen to live in these two > >> vast swathes of territory in a somewhat different light. This is no > >> longer something that can be viewed as an 'aberration' or as state > >> excess. It is the way in which the Indian state functions 'normally' > >> in Kashmir and in the North East. It 'accommodates' the difference of > >> their people by maintaining the highest 'military to civilian' ratio > >> in Kashmir and by the daily humiliations that it visits on a people > >> it treats as its 'subjects' as a matter of stable policy because they > >> happen to inhabit tracts of territory that are 'strategically' > >> important for reasons of state. > >> > >> I have no doubt at all about the fact that the resistance to the > >> Indian state that crystallizes in these areas, (whether in the form > >> of the NSCSN (IM) or (K) or the PLA or the different factions of the > >> miltiant resistance and their overground supporters in Kashmir) often > >> occupy a space that is as auhoritarian as that occupied by the Indian > >> state. But the people who inhabit these areas cannot be expected to > >> rely on one form of authoritarianism to protect them from the > >> depredations of another. > >> > >> In fact there is a rough equivalence in the two apparently > >>diametrically opposite positions that say either 'no discussion and > >> debate about what exactly 'independence' means until the Indian state > >> vacates the territory' and 'no withdrawal of armed forces and special > >> laws until the end of the insurgency'. Both of these positions need > >> to be rejected. Roy does not fall into the trap of endorsing one in > >> order to battle the other, in fact her explicit demand to her > >> Kashmiri audience is to actually wrestle with the necessity of > >> articulating the contours of the future that they desire for > >> themselves. She says - > >> > >> "it is time for those who are part of the struggle to outline a > >> vision for what kind of society they are fighting for. Perhaps it is > >> time to offer people something more than martyrs, slogans and vague > >> generalisations. Those who wish to turn to the Quran for guidance > >> will no doubt find guidance there. But what of those who do not wish > >> to do that, or for whom the Quran does not make place? Do the Hindus > >> of Jammu and other minorities also have the right to self- > >> determination? Will the hundreds of thousands of Kashmiri Pandits > >> living in exile, many of them in terrible poverty, have the right to > >> return? Will they be paid reparations for the terrible losses they > >> have suffered? Or will a free Kashmir do to its minorities what India > >> has done to Kashmiris for 61 years? What will happen to homosexuals > >> and adulterers and blasphemers? What of thieves and lafangas and > >> writers who do not agree with the "complete social and moral code"? > >> Will we be put to death as we are in Saudi Arabia? Will the cycle of > >> death, repression and bloodshed continue? History offers many models > >> for Kashmir's thinkers and intellectuals and politicians to study. > >> What will the Kashmir of their dreams look like? Algeria? Iran? South > >> Africa? Switzerland? Pakistan?" > >> > >> The discussion on this list has extended the logic of this demand. We > >> have had people, especially Jeebesh, talk of the possibility of 'post > >> national' paths as concrete possibilities, Sonia Jabbar has spoken of > >> 'confederal South Asia', Rahul Asthana has spoken of a 'Hong Kong' > >> like arrangement. All of these are as valid options as > >> 'independence', and need to be considered in turn. > >> > >> Muhajir's text, actually does not offer us this range of > >> possibilities. In the end, it asks Kashmiris to reconcile themselves > >> to the brutality of the Indian occupation simply on the basis of the > >> fact that it comes garbed in a normatively 'inclusive' form of > >> nationalism. Actually, when a boot kicks your face in, it is a bit > >> odd to console oneself with the fact that the boot happens to be a > >> happily 'secular' one. I don't quite see how doing so could possibly > >> relieve the agony of having your face kicked in. Even so, I welcome > >> the fact that it has acted as a catalyst in terms of leading us > >> towards the possibility of hinking this through outside the familiar > >> and exhausted tropes of nation states. > >> > >> So, what might a future Kashmir be. Let me throw my own two bits into > >> the ring, following on the lines sketched out by Jeebesh. In doing > >> this, I take the term 'Azaadi' seriously, and interpret it to mean > >> the liberation, not only from external, but also 'internal' > >> domination, and it is this that colours my perspective on possible > >> futures for Kashmir. > >> > >> 1. Demilitarization of Jammu and Kashmir. The 700,000 Indian soldiers > >> in Indian Occupied Kashmir to withdraw, (south of Jammu) the 50,000+ > >> Pakistani soldiers in Pakistani Occupied Kashmir to withdraw (west of > >> POK and Northern Areas). All militias (insurgent or counter > >> insurgent) and paramilitaries to decommission weapons and demobilize > >> under international observation (as happened in Northern Ireland) . > >> The process of withdrawal, decommissioing and demobilizing to take > >> place under the auspices of an international body within a UN mandate > >> (as happened in East Timor and Bosnia). A UN peacekeeping force to be > >> stationed in Kashmir, paid for by the Governments of India, Pakistan > >> and China (as reparations) This could have peacekeepers from Bosnia, > >> East Timor, Iraqi Kurdistan, Norway and Lebanon. > >> > >> 2. A cooling period of five to seven years, during which Jammu and > >> Kashmir (including present day 'Azad' Kashmir, Northern Areas in > >> Pakistan and Ladakh in India as well as the Aksai Chin and Karakorum > >> regions ceded or annexed by China) is governed as a UN mandated > >> territory, with full local autonomy, with the presence of the UN > >> Peacekeeping Force at limited levels. Normal, unrestricted political > >> activity, complete freedom of speech and association and local > >> governance to determine quesitons of local importance. Free movement > >> of people, and free trade, across the LOC. People of J&K to be issued > >> special travel documents for 'stateless people'. People of India, > >> Pakistan, Afghanistan, Tibet and Central Asian republics can travel > >> without visas to J&K. All others to receive visas on arrival, > >> Adminstered by the UN administration. Eventually, people in J&K to be > >> given the freedom to opt for cascading forms of dual citizenship. J&K > >> to have a twenty year tax holiday, fiscal burden of administration to > >> be on the UN. People not domiciled in J&K not to have the right to > >> own property in land in the region. > >> > >> 3. All displaced people (including those displaced in 1947, 1965, > >> 1971, 1989 and after) of all denominations (Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist > >> and others) to be allowed right of honourable return, with > >> reparations in the event of loss or destruction of property. > >> Indigenous Nomadic peoples to have freedom of movement across the > >> entire territory of J&K. > >> > >> 4. A constituent assembly to be set up during the five year cooling > >> period on the basis of universal adult franchise, to discuss the > >> future constitutional arrangements for J&K. Plebiscite to be held, > >> under UN auspices, with the presence of international observers, > >> after five years to determine the exact nature of constitutional > >> arrangements. The constituent assembly is to be guided to develop > >> models of statehood without the necessity of a standing army, > >> (Japan's post war constitution can be a basis for a state which gives > >> up the right to conduct war and maintain a standing army) so that a > >> future free territory of Kashmir does not represent a threat to any > >> of its neighbours. India. Pakistan and China, to give guarantees to > >> protect the independence and sovereignty of Kashmir, to undertake not > >> to invade or station their armed forces in J&K. J&K to be declared a > >> 'zone of peace' with special heritage protection for all religious > >> and culturally important sites and environmentally fragile zones. > >> > >> 5. I am not averse to an EU style South Asian Union, especially if it > >> provides for freedom of movement between the different parts of South > >> Asia, and makes borders and border controls in the region irrelevant. > >> In some ways, I think that this will be inevitable. But the terms for > >> participation in this union need to be democratic and equitable. It > >> hardly matters to me as to whether the people of J&K participate > >> within this arrangement as 'Indians', 'Pakistanis' or as > >> 'Independent' or as 'members of a 'post national entity'. The crucial > >> thing is, if they do not want to participate in this arrangement as > >> 'Indians', nothing should compel them to do so. > >> > >> I see all of the above as practical and realizable goals. The most > >> important obstacle is the presence of large bodies of official and > >> informal armed men, once those are removed, anything is possible. > >> There are many territories in the world, ranging from the Aaland > >> Islands, to Andorra, to Northern Ireland, to Hong Kong, to South > >> Tyrol whose constitutional contours contain elements that may be > >> useful for thinking 'out of the box' solutions to the Kashmir > >> dispute. In fact the so called step by step formula put forward by > >> Musharraf during the Agra Summit had a lot that could have been > >> thought through > >> > >> Siddharth Varadarjan, writing in 'Newsline' has provided a useful > >> summary of some of these possibilities, see - > >> http://www.newsline.com.pk/NewsNov2004/cover3nov2004.htm > >> > >> Whatever be the possibilities, they will probably need a > >> comprehensive measure of demilitarization to become workable. > >> Demilitarization, in its simplest and most effective sense means the > >> 'abolition of the standing army'. > >> > >> It needs to be remembered, that for about fifty odd years, the > >> 'abolition of the standing army' was the standard demand of every > >> respectable socialist, social democratic, anarchist and working class > >> party in the world from the mid nineteenth century onwards. The > >> abolition of standing armies was a mainstream, respectable slogan, it > >> had nothing dreamy or utopian about it. The first world war put an > >> end to this vigorous tradition of practical pacifism in the > >> International Working Class Movement. Perhaps the future of Kashmir > >> can bring this utterly human demand back on the agenda for the rest > >> of the world in a real sense. If Kashmiri people, and their > >> leaderships seize this opportunity to demand an abolition of standing > >> armies on their territory they will have made a fundamental > >> contribution to world history. I sincerely hope that they respond > >> positively to the challenge that this opportunity represents. > >> > >> --------------------------------- > >> Finally, a word about the confessional character of a state, or its > >> secular, or non secular basis. As a person with no interest > >> whatsoever in perpetuating the nation state as a form of human > >> organization, I refuse to make the case for 'secular' states as being > >> necessarily better or worse than 'non secular' ones. I think that > >> states need to be judged, not on their formal accotrements, but on > >> their actual conduct. > >> > >> Technically, the United Kingdom is not a secular state. The United > >> Kingdom has a an official state church, and the head of state is also > >> the head of the Church of England. Yet, it treats its minorities > >> better than say, Turkey, or France, both of which are secular state. > >> Saudi Arabia is a nightmare of a non secular state, and China is a > >> nightmare of a secular state, insofar as issues pertaining to the > >> freedom of conscience is concerned. IN our own neighbourhood, the > >> Indian state has lived quite happily with the fact that until > >> recently, Nepal was an autocratic, theocratic monarchy within the > >> hands of a single corrupt dynasty. This dynasty also bankrolled Hindu > >> fundamentalist outfits in India, and at one time offered refuge (as a > >> fleeing tyrant) to Indira Gandhi after she had been defeated in 1977. > >> I have never heard anyone say that Nepal's theocratic, corrupt, > >> autocratic monarchy was a problem for anyone other than the people of > >> Nepal (and they have quite competently got rid of that problem). I do > >> not hear people say that where a revived Lama State in Tibet to > >> exist, it would be a problem for India. Why then would the > >> possibility of an Islamic, or even an Islamist state in Kashmir (if > >> at all that came to pass, which may or may not be likely) be a > >> necessary problem for India, If anything, it should be a problem (if > >> it were to be a problem) that the people of Kashmir would have to > >> deal with, in their own fashion, in their own time. > >> > >> Those of us who believe that the state should not interfere in the > >> private lives of people, and in matters of faith, conscience and > >> doubt, would find ways of supporting that struggle, if it were to > >> take place, in a possible future Kashmir. If it were not to take > >> place, I would advise that we reconcile ourselves to the presence of > >> an Islamic Kashmir in our neighbourhood, exactly as we have > >> reconciled ourselves to a Hindu State in Nepal all these decades. I > >> cannot see how one can be worse than the other. > >> > >> regards, > >> > >> Shuddha > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Rashneek Kher > > Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten Human Tragedy > > http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com > > http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- Rashneek Kher Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten Human Tragedy http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com From vivek at sarai.net Fri Sep 19 09:00:30 2008 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 09:00:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Merrill Lynch top brass to share $200 million for less than a year's worth of work Message-ID: <48D31CD6.20007@sarai.net> Amazing, isn't it? This might also be a good time to revive the classic song by The Coup, "Five Million Ways to Kill a CEO": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQthFDpYCys Lyrics here: http://www.ohhla.com/anonymous/coup_the/p_music/5million.cou.txt ("We could let him change that tire / or we could all at once retire.") Banking crisis: Merrill Lynch top brass set to share $200m Even by Wall Street standards, the sums are unusually high for such a short period of employment * Andrew Clark in New York * guardian.co.uk, * Wednesday September 17 2008 18:27 BST Merrill Lynch's newly recruited chief executive, John Thain, stands to share a $200m (£111.4m) payout with two senior lieutenants for less than a year's work which culminated this week in the bank surrendering its 94-year-old independence. The Wall Street bank known as the "thundering herd" agreed to a $50bn takeover by Bank of America on Monday after a hasty 48 hours of negotiation. The talks were prompted by fears over banking stability arising from the collapse of Lehman Brothers. Thain, who was previously the head of the New York Stock Exchange, joined Merrill in December with a mandate to steer the bank out of financial trouble. When he arrived, he was given a $15m signing on bonus. If he leaves in Bank of America's takeover, he stands to get a further $11m in accelerated stock payouts. Two former Goldman Sachs executives hired by Thain are likely to do even better. Merrill's head of global trading, Thomas Montag, who joined in August, has already received a $39m bonus. Together with stock options accelerated by a buyout, he could end the year with $76m. The bank's head of strategy, Peter Kraus, was given a $95m package including bonuses and stock awards to replace his generous compensation at Goldman when he joined in May, according to figures obtained by Bloomberg News. It is yet to be determined whether any of the trio will have a role at Bank of America. Even by the standards of Wall Street payouts, the sums are unusually high for such a short period of employment. Steven Hall, a New York-based executive remuneration expert, told the Guardian that Merrill had little choice but to honour the contracts: "At the time they were recruiting [Thain], a negotiation took place and he would have told them this is what his price was. You can't go back and change things now — it's almost a kind of buyer's remorse we may be seeing." Thain, 53, is a leading fundraiser for the Republican presidential candidate John McCain. A doctor's son, he is an amateur beekeeper who used to keep hives in his back garden. He bought a two-bedroom apartment on New York's Park Avenue two years ago which had an asking price of $27.5m. He was hired by Merrill to steady the ship after huge losses on the credit markets which were run up under the leadership of ousted chief executive Stan O'Neal. At a press conference this week to announce the buyout by Bank of America, Thain admitted that selling Merrill was not the original plan: "This isn't necessarily the outcome I would have expected when I took the job." He insisted that he had made progress in tidying up Merrill: "We've been consistently cleaning up the balance sheet, repairing the damage that had been done over the last two or three years." Thain reportedly fought back tears at a meeting to brief staff on Merrill's buyout this week. Analysts say that Merrill's liabilities were greater than he could have anticipated when he joined — and some have praised his decision to sell. Defenders of Wall Street's controversial pay packages generally argue that although bankers do well during good times, they hold insecure jobs which are vulnerable during downturns. "What we do see is that when times get tough, people lose their jobs — and that's the ultimate in pay cuts," said Hall. A Merrill Lynch spokesman said the bank would not comment on executive compensation beyond the statutory disclosures required in filings with regulators. * guardian.co.uk © Guardian News and Media Limited 2008 From vivek at sarai.net Fri Sep 19 09:41:17 2008 From: vivek at sarai.net (Vivek Narayanan) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 09:41:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?=22India_can=E2=80=99t_afford_to_fall_vic?= =?utf-8?q?tim_to_psywar=22_-_Open_Statement?= In-Reply-To: <6353c690809182015rb2593b4xecb352c44d6ebf52@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690809182015rb2593b4xecb352c44d6ebf52@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48D32665.9060203@sarai.net> Hi, Because of plain text mangling, the signatories to this "either you're with or you're against us" letter below got a little bit squished together and unclear. I thought I would copy and repost the names of the signatories at the top so we can clearly see who they all are: (update after having disaggregated this-- my god, it's a scary list!) Signatories to the open statement: 1. Subhash Chandra, chairman, Essel Group 2. Maj Gen Afsir Karim (retd) 3. Ajit Doval, KC, former Director, IB 4. MJ Akbar, Renowned journalist 5. Anil Baijal, former Union Home Secretary 6. Admiral Arun Prakash (retd) former Navy Chief 7. Air Marshal S.R. Deshpandey (retd) 8. Dhirendra Singh, former Union Home Secretary 9. G Parthasarthy, IFS (retd) former Indian High Commissioner to Pakistan 10. Rajiv Sikri IFS (retd) former Secretary, Ministry of External Affairs. 11. CD Sahay, former Secretary (RAW) 12. Lt. General R.K. Sawhney (retd), former Dy Chief of Army Staff 13. Satish Chandra IFS (retd) former Deputy to National Security Advisor and Secretary National Security Counsil 14. Lt General Shantanu Chaudhary (retd), former Vice Chief of Army Staff 15. Air Chief Marshal SP Tyagi (retd) former Air Chief 16. Ved Marwah, former Director General National Security Guard and former Governor, Manipur and Jharkhand 17. Vijay Kapoor, former Lt. Governor, Delhi 18. Vikram Sood, former Secretary (RAW) 19.Sudhir Agarwal, Director Dainik Bhaskar Group 20. K Memani, Chairman-Emeritus, Ernst & Young. Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > India can't afford to fall victim to psywar 19 Sep 2008 01:11:00 AM IST Link > - > http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/story.aspx?artid=n3%7CNyKscLu8=&Title=India+can%E2%80%99t+afford+to+fall+victim+to+psywar&SectionID=XVSZ2Fy6Gzo=&MainSectionID=XVSZ2Fy6Gzo=&SEO=KASHMIR&SectionName=m3GntEw72ik= > SOME stray voices in the media have been questioning, with surprising > nonchalance and lack of depth, the wisdom and expediency of retaining > Kashmir as a part of India. This matters not because such voices reflect any > growing view in our country but because they play into the hands of enemies > of the nation. Their suggestions embolden subversive forces both within and > outside the country, and encourage our adversaries to entertain the hope > that with a little more effort, Kashmir will secede from India. National > will is a critical component of state power. In the absence of military > might, psychological warfare is the weapon of choice of a devious adversary > to attempt to break national will, and to also confuse and demoralise the > Indian state. No nation aspiring to become a major player in global power > dynamics can afford to fall victim to such psywar. India cannot and must not > give any signal that could be misinterpreted to mean that its national > resolve to preserve its unity and integrity is crumbling. The legal validity > of Jammu and Kashmir's accession to India is unquestionable and was in > accordance with the popular will. There is no basis on which any change in > the political status of the state of Jammu and Kashmir could be considered. > The UN itself has accepted that in the vastly changed circumstances the UN > Resolutions of 1948 and 1949 are no longer relevant. In any case, there is > no provision for holding a referendum only in one part of the undivided > state of Jammu and Kashmir or for holding separate referenda in the three > geographically distinct sections of the state. Like the other states > included in the First Schedule of the Constitution of India, Jammu and > Kashmir is clearly an integral part of India and will remain so. There is an > unanimous resolution of the Indian Parliament of February 22, 1994 to the > effect that "the state of Jammu & Kashmir has been, is and shall be an > integral part of India and any attempts to separate it from the rest of the > country will be resisted by all necessary means." It further adds that, > "Pakistan must vacate the areas of the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir, > which they have occupied through aggression." Section 3 of the Constitution > of Jammu and Kashmir also plainly asserts that "the state of Jammu and > Kashmir is and shall be an integral part of the Union of India." Section 147 > of the Jammu and Kashmir Constitution prohibits any amendment of Section 3 > by the state legislature. Kashmir is an inalienable element of India's > civilisational identity and symbolises the fundamental principles on which > the modern Indian state has been built. We take pride that India is a > prospering economy, but the pursuit of wealth should not make us forget the > values that keep our nation one. India has successfully overcome all > secessionist threats faced by it. No responsible government can ever > compromise India's territorial integrity by even contemplating the secession > of Kashmir. This is not a trifling issue. If the Indian state is seen as > weak enough to let Kashmir go, other states and disaffected groups within > India will only get emboldened, leading to the unraveling of India. Secondly, > as borders in the plains of northern India are not defensible, Kashmir is > vital for India's security. Finally, communal harmony could be seriously > compromised. Detractors of secular, democratic India tend to forget that the > overwhelming majority of Indian Muslims, who constitute over 15 per cent of > the population, has absolutely no sympathy for the partisan few who still > fan a tired idea called secession. It is distressing, indeed alarming, that > these seditious views, which question India's unity and integrity, are being > freely aired by a section of the intelligentsia. It is regrettable that the > print and electronic media are giving undue space and prominence to these > views. India is a free and democratic country with a vibrant media and we > are proud of it. But freedom of expression does not mean unbridled licence > to flout the law of the land by airing or fanning seditious views. Such > views also do a disservice to the people of Kashmir.We call upon the > intelligentsia that has the power to shape public opinion to use their power > with wisdom and maturity. Irresponsible slogans do immense damage in open > and democratic polities and can mislead people to take partisan positions > without understanding the grave implications. We also urge the media to > exercise restraint and show responsibility in the larger national interest. As > proud and patriotic Indians who strongly believe that the unity and secular > democratic fabric of our republic must be preserved at all costs, we call > upon the Government of India to make it unequivocally clear at the highest > level that under no circumstances will the government and people of India > countenance any compromise with the integrity of the nation. We also call > upon the people of India and all political parties to raise their voices and > come out unambiguously against secessionism in any form whatsoever. Signatories > to the open statement: 1. Subhash Chandra, chairman, Essel Group 2. Maj Gen > Afsir Karim (retd) 3. Ajit Doval, KC, former Director, IB 4. MJ Akbar, > Renowned journalist 5. Anil Baijal, former Union Home Secretary 6. Admiral > Arun Prakash (retd) former Navy Chief 7. Air Marshal S.R. Deshpandey (retd) 8. > Dhirendra Singh, former Union Home Secretary 9. G Parthasarthy, IFS (retd) > former Indian High Commissioner to Pakistan 10. Rajiv Sikri IFS (retd) > former Secretary, Ministry of External Affairs. 11. CD Sahay, former > Secretary (RAW) 12. Lt. General R.K. Sawhney (retd), former Dy Chief of Army > Staff 13. Satish Chandra IFS (retd) former Deputy to National Security > Advisor and Secretary National Security Counsil 14. Lt General Shantanu > Chaudhary (retd), former Vice Chief of Army Staff 15. Air Chief Marshal SP > Tyagi (retd) former Air Chief 16. Ved Marwah, former Director General > National Security Guard and former Governor, Manipur and Jharkhand 17. Vijay > Kapoor, former Lt. Governor, Delhi 18. Vikram Sood, former Secretary (RAW) 19. > Sudhir Agarwal, Director Dainik Bhaskar Group20. K Memani, > Chairman-Emeritus, Ernst & Young. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com Fri Sep 19 09:43:59 2008 From: naeem.mohaiemen at gmail.com (Naeem Mohaiemen) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 10:13:59 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] BANGLADESH: Cricket Crisis As 13 Players Defect To India Message-ID: IHT: Unlikely Nation At Center of Cricket Tug-Of War http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/09/18/sports/cricket.php Rebel Warriors- Zafar Sobhan http://thedailystar.net/story.php?nid=55399 Bangladesh facing Test Status end after best players defect http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24351216-5001505,00.html Drishtipat Blog Debate http://www.drishtipat.org/blog/2008/09/15/bangladeshi-cricketers-try-to-hide-their-incompetence-and-hunger-for-money-with-fake-outrage From lalitambardar at hotmail.com Fri Sep 19 11:22:56 2008 From: lalitambardar at hotmail.com (Lalit Ambardar) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 05:52:56 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?_RE=3A__=22India_can=92t_afford_to?= =?windows-1252?q?_fall_victim_to_psywar=22_-_Open_Statement?= In-Reply-To: <48D32665.9060203@sarai.net> References: <6353c690809182015rb2593b4xecb352c44d6ebf52@mail.gmail.com> <48D32665.9060203@sarai.net> Message-ID: Why should saner voices sound scary? LA > Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 09:41:17 +0530> From: vivek at sarai.net> To: kauladityaraj at gmail.com> CC: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] "India can’t afford to fall victim to psywar" - Open Statement> > Hi,> > Because of plain text mangling, the signatories to this "either you're > with or you're against us" letter below got a little bit squished > together and unclear. I thought I would copy and repost the names of > the signatories at the top so we can clearly see who they all are:> > (update after having disaggregated this-- my god, it's a scary list!)> > Signatories to the open statement:> > 1. Subhash Chandra, chairman, Essel Group> > 2. Maj Gen Afsir Karim (retd)> > 3. Ajit Doval, KC, former Director, IB> > 4. MJ Akbar, Renowned journalist> > 5. Anil Baijal, former Union Home Secretary> > 6. Admiral Arun Prakash (retd) former Navy Chief> > 7. Air Marshal S.R. Deshpandey (retd)> > 8. Dhirendra Singh, former Union Home Secretary> > 9. G Parthasarthy, IFS (retd) former Indian High Commissioner to Pakistan> > 10. Rajiv Sikri IFS (retd) former Secretary, Ministry of External Affairs.> > 11. CD Sahay, former Secretary (RAW)> > 12. Lt. General R.K. Sawhney (retd), former Dy Chief of Army Staff> > 13. Satish Chandra IFS (retd) former Deputy to National Security Advisor > and Secretary National Security Counsil> > 14. Lt General Shantanu Chaudhary (retd), former Vice Chief of Army Staff> > 15. Air Chief Marshal SP Tyagi (retd) former Air Chief> > 16. Ved Marwah, former Director General National Security Guard and > former Governor, Manipur and Jharkhand> > 17. Vijay Kapoor, former Lt. Governor, Delhi> > 18. Vikram Sood, former Secretary (RAW)> > 19.Sudhir Agarwal, Director Dainik Bhaskar Group> > 20. K Memani, Chairman-Emeritus, Ernst & Young.> > > > > Aditya Raj Kaul wrote:> > India can't afford to fall victim to psywar 19 Sep 2008 01:11:00 AM IST Link> > -> > http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/story.aspx?artid=n3%7CNyKscLu8=&Title=India+can%E2%80%99t+afford+to+fall+victim+to+psywar&SectionID=XVSZ2Fy6Gzo=&MainSectionID=XVSZ2Fy6Gzo=&SEO=KASHMIR&SectionName=m3GntEw72ik=> > SOME stray voices in the media have been questioning, with surprising> > nonchalance and lack of depth, the wisdom and expediency of retaining> > Kashmir as a part of India. This matters not because such voices reflect any> > growing view in our country but because they play into the hands of enemies> > of the nation. Their suggestions embolden subversive forces both within and> > outside the country, and encourage our adversaries to entertain the hope> > that with a little more effort, Kashmir will secede from India. National> > will is a critical component of state power. In the absence of military> > might, psychological warfare is the weapon of choice of a devious adversary> > to attempt to break national will, and to also confuse and demoralise the> > Indian state. No nation aspiring to become a major player in global power> > dynamics can afford to fall victim to such psywar. India cannot and must not> > give any signal that could be misinterpreted to mean that its national> > resolve to preserve its unity and integrity is crumbling. The legal validity> > of Jammu and Kashmir's accession to India is unquestionable and was in> > accordance with the popular will. There is no basis on which any change in> > the political status of the state of Jammu and Kashmir could be considered.> > The UN itself has accepted that in the vastly changed circumstances the UN> > Resolutions of 1948 and 1949 are no longer relevant. In any case, there is> > no provision for holding a referendum only in one part of the undivided> > state of Jammu and Kashmir or for holding separate referenda in the three> > geographically distinct sections of the state. Like the other states> > included in the First Schedule of the Constitution of India, Jammu and> > Kashmir is clearly an integral part of India and will remain so. There is an> > unanimous resolution of the Indian Parliament of February 22, 1994 to the> > effect that "the state of Jammu & Kashmir has been, is and shall be an> > integral part of India and any attempts to separate it from the rest of the> > country will be resisted by all necessary means." It further adds that,> > "Pakistan must vacate the areas of the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir,> > which they have occupied through aggression." Section 3 of the Constitution> > of Jammu and Kashmir also plainly asserts that "the state of Jammu and> > Kashmir is and shall be an integral part of the Union of India." Section 147> > of the Jammu and Kashmir Constitution prohibits any amendment of Section 3> > by the state legislature. Kashmir is an inalienable element of India's> > civilisational identity and symbolises the fundamental principles on which> > the modern Indian state has been built. We take pride that India is a> > prospering economy, but the pursuit of wealth should not make us forget the> > values that keep our nation one. India has successfully overcome all> > secessionist threats faced by it. No responsible government can ever> > compromise India's territorial integrity by even contemplating the secession> > of Kashmir. This is not a trifling issue. If the Indian state is seen as> > weak enough to let Kashmir go, other states and disaffected groups within> > India will only get emboldened, leading to the unraveling of India. Secondly,> > as borders in the plains of northern India are not defensible, Kashmir is> > vital for India's security. Finally, communal harmony could be seriously> > compromised. Detractors of secular, democratic India tend to forget that the> > overwhelming majority of Indian Muslims, who constitute over 15 per cent of> > the population, has absolutely no sympathy for the partisan few who still> > fan a tired idea called secession. It is distressing, indeed alarming, that> > these seditious views, which question India's unity and integrity, are being> > freely aired by a section of the intelligentsia. It is regrettable that the> > print and electronic media are giving undue space and prominence to these> > views. India is a free and democratic country with a vibrant media and we> > are proud of it. But freedom of expression does not mean unbridled licence> > to flout the law of the land by airing or fanning seditious views. Such> > views also do a disservice to the people of Kashmir.We call upon the> > intelligentsia that has the power to shape public opinion to use their power> > with wisdom and maturity. Irresponsible slogans do immense damage in open> > and democratic polities and can mislead people to take partisan positions> > without understanding the grave implications. We also urge the media to> > exercise restraint and show responsibility in the larger national interest. As> > proud and patriotic Indians who strongly believe that the unity and secular> > democratic fabric of our republic must be preserved at all costs, we call> > upon the Government of India to make it unequivocally clear at the highest> > level that under no circumstances will the government and people of India> > countenance any compromise with the integrity of the nation. We also call> > upon the people of India and all political parties to raise their voices and> > come out unambiguously against secessionism in any form whatsoever. Signatories> > to the open statement: 1. Subhash Chandra, chairman, Essel Group 2. Maj Gen> > Afsir Karim (retd) 3. Ajit Doval, KC, former Director, IB 4. MJ Akbar,> > Renowned journalist 5. Anil Baijal, former Union Home Secretary 6. Admiral> > Arun Prakash (retd) former Navy Chief 7. Air Marshal S.R. Deshpandey (retd) 8.> > Dhirendra Singh, former Union Home Secretary 9. G Parthasarthy, IFS (retd)> > former Indian High Commissioner to Pakistan 10. Rajiv Sikri IFS (retd)> > former Secretary, Ministry of External Affairs. 11. CD Sahay, former> > Secretary (RAW) 12. Lt. General R.K. Sawhney (retd), former Dy Chief of Army> > Staff 13. Satish Chandra IFS (retd) former Deputy to National Security> > Advisor and Secretary National Security Counsil 14. Lt General Shantanu> > Chaudhary (retd), former Vice Chief of Army Staff 15. Air Chief Marshal SP> > Tyagi (retd) former Air Chief 16. Ved Marwah, former Director General> > National Security Guard and former Governor, Manipur and Jharkhand 17. Vijay> > Kapoor, former Lt. Governor, Delhi 18. Vikram Sood, former Secretary (RAW) 19.> > Sudhir Agarwal, Director Dainik Bhaskar Group20. K Memani,> > Chairman-Emeritus, Ernst & Young.> > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Searching for weekend getaways? Try Live.com http://www.live.com/?scope=video&form=MICOAL From rohitism at gmail.com Fri Sep 19 12:00:02 2008 From: rohitism at gmail.com (Rohit Shetti) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 12:00:02 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?=22India_can=92t_afford_to_fall_vi?= =?windows-1252?q?ctim_to_psywar=22_-_Open_Statement?= In-Reply-To: References: <6353c690809182015rb2593b4xecb352c44d6ebf52@mail.gmail.com> <48D32665.9060203@sarai.net> Message-ID: Sanity can scare indeed!! On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 11:22 AM, Lalit Ambardar wrote: > Why should saner voices sound scary? > LA > > > > > Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 09:41:17 +0530> From: vivek at sarai.net> To: > kauladityaraj at gmail.com> CC: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: > [Reader-list] "India can't afford to fall victim to psywar" - Open > Statement> > Hi,> > Because of plain text mangling, the signatories to this > "either you're > with or you're against us" letter below got a little bit > squished > together and unclear. I thought I would copy and repost the names > of > the signatories at the top so we can clearly see who they all are:> > > (update after having disaggregated this-- my god, it's a scary list!)> > > Signatories to the open statement:> > 1. Subhash Chandra, chairman, Essel > Group> > 2. Maj Gen Afsir Karim (retd)> > 3. Ajit Doval, KC, former > Director, IB> > 4. MJ Akbar, Renowned journalist> > 5. Anil Baijal, former > Union Home Secretary> > 6. Admiral Arun Prakash (retd) former Navy Chief> > > 7. Air Marshal S.R. Deshpandey (retd)> > 8. Dhirendra Singh, former Union > Home Secretary> > 9. G Parthasarthy, IFS (retd) former Indian High > Commissioner to Pakistan> > 10. Rajiv Sikri IFS (retd) former Secretary, > Ministry of External Affairs.> > 11. CD Sahay, former Secretary (RAW)> > 12. > Lt. General R.K. Sawhney (retd), former Dy Chief of Army Staff> > 13. Satish > Chandra IFS (retd) former Deputy to National Security Advisor > and > Secretary National Security Counsil> > 14. Lt General Shantanu Chaudhary > (retd), former Vice Chief of Army Staff> > 15. Air Chief Marshal SP Tyagi > (retd) former Air Chief> > 16. Ved Marwah, former Director General National > Security Guard and > former Governor, Manipur and Jharkhand> > 17. Vijay > Kapoor, former Lt. Governor, Delhi> > 18. Vikram Sood, former Secretary > (RAW)> > 19.Sudhir Agarwal, Director Dainik Bhaskar Group> > 20. K Memani, > Chairman-Emeritus, Ernst & Young.> > > > > Aditya Raj Kaul wrote:> > India > can't afford to fall victim to psywar 19 Sep 2008 01:11:00 AM IST Link> > -> > > > http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/story.aspx?artid=n3%7CNyKscLu8=&Title=India+can%E2%80%99t+afford+to+fall+victim+to+psywar&SectionID=XVSZ2Fy6Gzo=&MainSectionID=XVSZ2Fy6Gzo=&SEO=KASHMIR&SectionName=m3GntEw72ik=> > > SOME stray voices in the media have been questioning, with surprising> > > nonchalance and lack of depth, the wisdom and expediency of retaining> > > Kashmir as a part of India. This matters not because such voices reflect > any> > growing view in our country but because they play into the hands of > enemies> > of the nation. Their suggestions embolden subversive forces both > within and> > outside the country, and encourage our adversaries to > entertain the hope> > that with a little more effort, Kashmir will secede > from India. National> > will is a critical component of state power. In the > absence of military> > might, psychological warfare is the weapon of choice > of a devious adversary> > to attempt to break national will, and to also > confuse and demoralise the> > Indian state. No nation aspiring to become a > major player in global power> > dynamics can afford to fall victim to such > psywar. India cannot and must not> > give any signal that could be > misinterpreted to mean that its national> > resolve to preserve its unity > and integrity is crumbling. The legal validity> > of Jammu and Kashmir's > accession to India is unquestionable and was in> > accordance with the > popular will. There is no basis on which any change in> > the political > status of the state of Jammu and Kashmir could be considered.> > The UN > itself has accepted that in the vastly changed circumstances the UN> > > Resolutions of 1948 and 1949 are no longer relevant. In any case, there is> > > no provision for holding a referendum only in one part of the undivided> > > state of Jammu and Kashmir or for holding separate referenda in the three> > > geographically distinct sections of the state. Like the other states> > > included in the First Schedule of the Constitution of India, Jammu and> > > Kashmir is clearly an integral part of India and will remain so. There is > an> > unanimous resolution of the Indian Parliament of February 22, 1994 to > the> > effect that "the state of Jammu & Kashmir has been, is and shall be > an> > integral part of India and any attempts to separate it from the rest > of the> > country will be resisted by all necessary means." It further adds > that,> > "Pakistan must vacate the areas of the Indian state of Jammu and > Kashmir,> > which they have occupied through aggression." Section 3 of the > Constitution> > of Jammu and Kashmir also plainly asserts that "the state of > Jammu and> > Kashmir is and shall be an integral part of the Union of > India." Section 147> > of the Jammu and Kashmir Constitution prohibits any > amendment of Section 3> > by the state legislature. Kashmir is an > inalienable element of India's> > civilisational identity and symbolises the > fundamental principles on which> > the modern Indian state has been built. > We take pride that India is a> > prospering economy, but the pursuit of > wealth should not make us forget the> > values that keep our nation one. > India has successfully overcome all> > secessionist threats faced by it. No > responsible government can ever> > compromise India's territorial integrity > by even contemplating the secession> > of Kashmir. This is not a trifling > issue. If the Indian state is seen as> > weak enough to let Kashmir go, > other states and disaffected groups within> > India will only get > emboldened, leading to the unraveling of India. Secondly,> > as borders in > the plains of northern India are not defensible, Kashmir is> > vital for > India's security. Finally, communal harmony could be seriously> > > compromised. Detractors of secular, democratic India tend to forget that > the> > overwhelming majority of Indian Muslims, who constitute over 15 per > cent of> > the population, has absolutely no sympathy for the partisan few > who still> > fan a tired idea called secession. It is distressing, indeed > alarming, that> > these seditious views, which question India's unity and > integrity, are being> > freely aired by a section of the intelligentsia. It > is regrettable that the> > print and electronic media are giving undue space > and prominence to these> > views. India is a free and democratic country > with a vibrant media and we> > are proud of it. But freedom of expression > does not mean unbridled licence> > to flout the law of the land by airing or > fanning seditious views. Such> > views also do a disservice to the people of > Kashmir.We call upon the> > intelligentsia that has the power to shape > public opinion to use their power> > with wisdom and maturity. Irresponsible > slogans do immense damage in open> > and democratic polities and can mislead > people to take partisan positions> > without understanding the grave > implications. We also urge the media to> > exercise restraint and show > responsibility in the larger national interest. As> > proud and patriotic > Indians who strongly believe that the unity and secular> > democratic fabric > of our republic must be preserved at all costs, we call> > upon the > Government of India to make it unequivocally clear at the highest> > level > that under no circumstances will the government and people of India> > > countenance any compromise with the integrity of the nation. We also call> > > upon the people of India and all political parties to raise their voices > and> > come out unambiguously against secessionism in any form whatsoever. > Signatories> > to the open statement: 1. Subhash Chandra, chairman, Essel > Group 2. Maj Gen> > Afsir Karim (retd) 3. Ajit Doval, KC, former Director, > IB 4. MJ Akbar,> > Renowned journalist 5. Anil Baijal, former Union Home > Secretary 6. Admiral> > Arun Prakash (retd) former Navy Chief 7. Air Marshal > S.R. Deshpandey (retd) 8.> > Dhirendra Singh, former Union Home Secretary 9. > G Parthasarthy, IFS (retd)> > former Indian High Commissioner to Pakistan > 10. Rajiv Sikri IFS (retd)> > former Secretary, Ministry of External > Affairs. 11. CD Sahay, former> > Secretary (RAW) 12. Lt. General R.K. > Sawhney (retd), former Dy Chief of Army> > Staff 13. Satish Chandra IFS > (retd) former Deputy to National Security> > Advisor and Secretary National > Security Counsil 14. Lt General Shantanu> > Chaudhary (retd), former Vice > Chief of Army Staff 15. Air Chief Marshal SP> > Tyagi (retd) former Air > Chief 16. Ved Marwah, former Director General> > National Security Guard and > former Governor, Manipur and Jharkhand 17. Vijay> > Kapoor, former Lt. > Governor, Delhi 18. Vikram Sood, former Secretary (RAW) 19.> > Sudhir > Agarwal, Director Dainik Bhaskar Group20. K Memani,> > Chairman-Emeritus, > Ernst & Young.> > _________________________________________> > reader-list: > an open discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & > Collaborations> > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.> > To > unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List > archive: > > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion > list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send > an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header.> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: < > https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________________________________ > Searching for weekend getaways? Try Live.com > http://www.live.com/?scope=video&form=MICOAL > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From phadkeshilpa at gmail.com Fri Sep 19 12:37:08 2008 From: phadkeshilpa at gmail.com (Shilpa Phadke) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 12:37:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: NIRVANAM: A Performance by Pritham K. Chakravarthy: 26th September 2008 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: *Please forward widely.* ** *Culture Café, Centre for Media and Cultural Studies, TISS presents*** * * *NIRVANAM* by Pritham K. Chakravarthy Date: 26th September 2008 Time: 6 p.m. Venue: Main Quadrangle, Tata Institute of Social Sciences *Entry Free*** Nirvanam is a powerful one person performative exploration of the journey towards becoming an Aravani (or transgendered subject). Nirvanam refers to the act of liberating oneself from the male body and transforming oneself to a female. This narrative bears witness to the tumultuous journey towards a reinvented selfhood, a journey fraught with violence, exploitation, affection and courage Pritham K Chakravarthy is a storyteller, playwright, director and actor. Scripted and performed by Pritham, Nirvanam was a part of The Edinburgh International Festival 2002. Since then all her solo pieces, Nirvanam, Mirror/Kannadi and Dushala have been performed extensively in the UK and USA. Within the country they have been featured at The Park Other Festival, The Metro Theatre Festival, Bangalore Habba and Natarani Festival of Non-violence. She has been the recipient of several fellowships, including Ashoka Innovators Fellowship, 1995-96, Fulbright Fellowship, 2002-2003, Charles Wallace Fellowship, 2007 and the SARAI Independent Fellowship 2007. She is also an author and a translator. Her latest work includes The Blaft Anthology of Tamil Pulp Fiction and Zero Degree – Charu Nivedita. She is currently Artist in Residence at the Centre for Media and Cultural Studies, TISS. From lalitambardar at hotmail.com Fri Sep 19 13:15:27 2008 From: lalitambardar at hotmail.com (Lalit Ambardar) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 07:45:27 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?_RE=3A__RE=3A_=22India_can=92t_aff?= =?windows-1252?q?ord_to_fall_victim_to_psywar=22_-_Open_Statement?= In-Reply-To: References: <6353c690809182015rb2593b4xecb352c44d6ebf52@mail.gmail.com> <48D32665.9060203@sarai.net> Message-ID: ..........scare whom..........???? LA ------------------------------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 12:00:02 +0530From: rohitism at gmail.comTo: lalitambardar at hotmail.comSubject: Re: [Reader-list] RE: "India can’t afford to fall victim to psywar" - Open StatementCC: vivek at sarai.net; kauladityaraj at gmail.com; reader-list at sarai.net Sanity can scare indeed!! On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 11:22 AM, Lalit Ambardar wrote: Why should saner voices sound scary?LA> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 09:41:17 +0530> From: vivek at sarai.net> To: kauladityaraj at gmail.com> CC: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] "India can't afford to fall victim to psywar" - Open Statement> > Hi,> > Because of plain text mangling, the signatories to this "either you're > with or you're against us" letter below got a little bit squished > together and unclear. I thought I would copy and repost the names of > the signatories at the top so we can clearly see who they all are:> > (update after having disaggregated this-- my god, it's a scary list!)> > Signatories to the open statement:> > 1. Subhash Chandra, chairman, Essel Group> > 2. Maj Gen Afsir Karim (retd)> > 3. Ajit Doval, KC, former Director, IB> > 4. MJ Akbar, Renowned journalist> > 5. Anil Baijal, former Union Home Secretary> > 6. Admiral Arun Prakash (retd) former Navy Chief> > 7. Air Marshal S.R. Deshpandey (retd)> > 8. Dhirendra Singh, former Union Home Secretary> > 9. G Parthasarthy, IFS (retd) former Indian High Commissioner to Pakistan> > 10. Rajiv Sikri IFS (retd) former Secretary, Ministry of External Affairs.> > 11. CD Sahay, former Secretary (RAW)> > 12. Lt. General R.K. Sawhney (retd), former Dy Chief of Army Staff> > 13. Satish Chandra IFS (retd) former Deputy to National Security Advisor > and Secretary National Security Counsil> > 14. Lt General Shantanu Chaudhary (retd), former Vice Chief of Army Staff> > 15. Air Chief Marshal SP Tyagi (retd) former Air Chief> > 16. Ved Marwah, former Director General National Security Guard and > former Governor, Manipur and Jharkhand> > 17. Vijay Kapoor, former Lt. Governor, Delhi> > 18. Vikram Sood, former Secretary (RAW)> > 19.Sudhir Agarwal, Director Dainik Bhaskar Group> > 20. K Memani, Chairman-Emeritus, Ernst & Young.> > > > > Aditya Raj Kaul wrote:> > India can't afford to fall victim to psywar 19 Sep 2008 01:11:00 AM IST Link> > -> > http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/story.aspx?artid=n3%7CNyKscLu8=&Title=India+can%E2%80%99t+afford+to+fall+victim+to+psywar&SectionID=XVSZ2Fy6Gzo=&MainSectionID=XVSZ2Fy6Gzo=&SEO=KASHMIR&SectionName=m3GntEw72ik=> > SOME stray voices in the media have been questioning, with surprising> > nonchalance and lack of depth, the wisdom and expediency of retaining> > Kashmir as a part of India. This matters not because such voices reflect any> > growing view in our country but because they play into the hands of enemies> > of the nation. Their suggestions embolden subversive forces both within and> > outside the country, and encourage our adversaries to entertain the hope> > that with a little more effort, Kashmir will secede from India. National> > will is a critical component of state power. In the absence of military> > might, psychological warfare is the weapon of choice of a devious adversary> > to attempt to break national will, and to also confuse and demoralise the> > Indian state. No nation aspiring to become a major player in global power> > dynamics can afford to fall victim to such psywar. India cannot and must not> > give any signal that could be misinterpreted to mean that its national> > resolve to preserve its unity and integrity is crumbling. The legal validity> > of Jammu and Kashmir's accession to India is unquestionable and was in> > accordance with the popular will. There is no basis on which any change in> > the political status of the state of Jammu and Kashmir could be considered.> > The UN itself has accepted that in the vastly changed circumstances the UN> > Resolutions of 1948 and 1949 are no longer relevant. In any case, there is> > no provision for holding a referendum only in one part of the undivided> > state of Jammu and Kashmir or for holding separate referenda in the three> > geographically distinct sections of the state. Like the other states> > included in the First Schedule of the Constitution of India, Jammu and> > Kashmir is clearly an integral part of India and will remain so. There is an> > unanimous resolution of the Indian Parliament of February 22, 1994 to the> > effect that "the state of Jammu & Kashmir has been, is and shall be an> > integral part of India and any attempts to separate it from the rest of the> > country will be resisted by all necessary means." It further adds that,> > "Pakistan must vacate the areas of the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir,> > which they have occupied through aggression." Section 3 of the Constitution> > of Jammu and Kashmir also plainly asserts that "the state of Jammu and> > Kashmir is and shall be an integral part of the Union of India." Section 147> > of the Jammu and Kashmir Constitution prohibits any amendment of Section 3> > by the state legislature. Kashmir is an inalienable element of India's> > civilisational identity and symbolises the fundamental principles on which> > the modern Indian state has been built. We take pride that India is a> > prospering economy, but the pursuit of wealth should not make us forget the> > values that keep our nation one. India has successfully overcome all> > secessionist threats faced by it. No responsible government can ever> > compromise India's territorial integrity by even contemplating the secession> > of Kashmir. This is not a trifling issue. If the Indian state is seen as> > weak enough to let Kashmir go, other states and disaffected groups within> > India will only get emboldened, leading to the unraveling of India. Secondly,> > as borders in the plains of northern India are not defensible, Kashmir is> > vital for India's security. Finally, communal harmony could be seriously> > compromised. Detractors of secular, democratic India tend to forget that the> > overwhelming majority of Indian Muslims, who constitute over 15 per cent of> > the population, has absolutely no sympathy for the partisan few who still> > fan a tired idea called secession. It is distressing, indeed alarming, that> > these seditious views, which question India's unity and integrity, are being> > freely aired by a section of the intelligentsia. It is regrettable that the> > print and electronic media are giving undue space and prominence to these> > views. India is a free and democratic country with a vibrant media and we> > are proud of it. But freedom of expression does not mean unbridled licence> > to flout the law of the land by airing or fanning seditious views. Such> > views also do a disservice to the people of Kashmir.We call upon the> > intelligentsia that has the power to shape public opinion to use their power> > with wisdom and maturity. Irresponsible slogans do immense damage in open> > and democratic polities and can mislead people to take partisan positions> > without understanding the grave implications. We also urge the media to> > exercise restraint and show responsibility in the larger national interest. As> > proud and patriotic Indians who strongly believe that the unity and secular> > democratic fabric of our republic must be preserved at all costs, we call> > upon the Government of India to make it unequivocally clear at the highest> > level that under no circumstances will the government and people of India> > countenance any compromise with the integrity of the nation. We also call> > upon the people of India and all political parties to raise their voices and> > come out unambiguously against secessionism in any form whatsoever. Signatories> > to the open statement: 1. Subhash Chandra, chairman, Essel Group 2. Maj Gen> > Afsir Karim (retd) 3. Ajit Doval, KC, former Director, IB 4. MJ Akbar,> > Renowned journalist 5. Anil Baijal, former Union Home Secretary 6. Admiral> > Arun Prakash (retd) former Navy Chief 7. Air Marshal S.R. Deshpandey (retd) 8.> > Dhirendra Singh, former Union Home Secretary 9. G Parthasarthy, IFS (retd)> > former Indian High Commissioner to Pakistan 10. Rajiv Sikri IFS (retd)> > former Secretary, Ministry of External Affairs. 11. CD Sahay, former> > Secretary (RAW) 12. Lt. General R.K. Sawhney (retd), former Dy Chief of Army> > Staff 13. Satish Chandra IFS (retd) former Deputy to National Security> > Advisor and Secretary National Security Counsil 14. Lt General Shantanu> > Chaudhary (retd), former Vice Chief of Army Staff 15. Air Chief Marshal SP> > Tyagi (retd) former Air Chief 16. Ved Marwah, former Director General> > National Security Guard and former Governor, Manipur and Jharkhand 17. Vijay> > Kapoor, former Lt. Governor, Delhi 18. Vikram Sood, former Secretary (RAW) 19.> > Sudhir Agarwal, Director Dainik Bhaskar Group20. K Memani,> > Chairman-Emeritus, Ernst & Young.> > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: _________________________________________________________________Searching for weekend getaways? Try Live.comhttp://www.live.com/?scope=video&form=MICOAL _________________________________________reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.Critiques & CollaborationsTo subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-listList archive: _________________________________________________________________ Want to explore the world? Visit MSN Travel for the best deals. http://in.msn.com/coxandkings From oishiksircar at gmail.com Thu Sep 18 12:01:48 2008 From: oishiksircar at gmail.com (OISHIK SIRCAR) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 12:01:48 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Infochange Media Fellowships 2008 Message-ID: <62cba67a0809172331v67d0d86ek6b021877fcb72dcc@mail.gmail.com> *Infochangeindia Media Fellowships 2008* *November 1-December 31, 2008* *www.infochangeindia.org* invites applications for its 2008 Media Fellowships. Three fellowships will be awarded to journalists and researchers reporting on a selected topic of research. The topic chosen must be related to social justice/sustainable development in India. *www.infochangeindia.org* (managed by the Centre for Communication and Development Studies) covers a diverse range of issues in the social sector – from environment, poverty, livelihoods, public health, women and child rights, social exclusion, displacement, migration, gender and sexuality to globalisation, trade and development, intellectual property rights, social entrepreneurship and much more. We welcome proposals that uncover and illustrate topical issues and contemporary debates in any of these fields. The final output must combine research and reportage with background, perspective, analysis and, when appropriate, views and information from experts. The fellowship must result in any one of the following outputs: 1. A series of five or more original articles (preferably with photographic documentation) on the proposed subject of research, totalling 7,500 words or more. These are to be submitted and uploaded on *www.infochangeindia.org*. 2. A series of three or more short audio reports – not exceeding 10 mins duration each -- on the proposed subject of research, to be featured in the Audio section of infochangeindia.org. 3. One documentary film (of 10-22 mins duration) or a series of shorts (of broadcast quality, submitted in avi or mpeg formats) on the proposed subject of research, for upload in the Documentary section of infochangeindia.org *(All content researched and uploaded on **www.infochangeindia.org* * may be submitted for publication/dissemination elsewhere one month after upload on our site, provided due credit is given to CCDS and infochangeindia.org as the supporting institution and the website where the material first appeared respectively. Films and audio stories produced as part of the fellowship must likewise carry the required credits to CCDS and infochangeindia)* *Duration* The fellowships will be announced end-October. Fellows are expected to begin work by the first week of November 2008 and complete it by the first week of January 2009. All outputs are required to reach infochangeindia by January 5, 2009. *Eligibility * The fellowship is open to independent journalists and researchers living in India only. Working journalists may also apply, provided their organisations endorse their application and allow them time off for this fellowship If selected. *Last date for submission of applications* All applications must be received by October 3, 2008. *Funding support* The infochangeindia fellowships carry a grant amount of Rs 50,000 (subject to TDS as applicable). 50% of this amount will be disbursed on selection, to fund travel and research expenses. The balance will be released on successful completion of the project, submission and acceptance of stories/films. Infochangeindia reserves the right to ask for revisions in articles/documentaries submitted until its standards for upload are met. Grants will be withdrawn and the advance refunded by the fellow if the fellow fails to complete and submit her/his project on deadline or if the quality of the work submitted is not acceptable. The decision of the editors/editorial board of *www.infochangeindia.org*on the quality of submissions will be final. *Application procedure * All applications must be accompanied by 1. A detailed proposal (not exceeding 1,000 words) clearly stating the subject to be researched, the applicant's perspective on this subject, and expected output in terms of X number of articles etc. 2. Travel likely to be undertaken for the research, with an estimated budget. 3. CV of the applicant. 4. Three samples of published work by applicants from the print media. At least one sample of broadcast/telecast work on CD by applicants from the electronic media. If any of these are in regional languages, they must be accompanied by a summary of their contents in English. 5. Working journalists submitting applications must enclose a letter from their editor stating that they endorse the application and will allow the fellow time off for the research if selected. 6. One letter of recommendation from a writer/editor/academician or other appropriate referee endorsing the applicant's interest/expertise in the chosen subject of research and the candidate's ability to successfully complete the project. *Address to send applications to* Applications may be addressed to *Infochangeindia Media Fellowships* Centre for Communication and Development Studies (CCDS) 301, Kanchanjunga Building, Kanchan Gully Off Law College Road, Pune 411 004 Telephone: 020-26852845/30222156 Applications not accompanied by CDs may be sent by email to * infochangefellowships at infochangeindia.orgThis e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it * and CC * infochangefellowships at gmail.comThis e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it * to provided all scanned material is clearly legible and all attachments are zipped into a single file. -- OISHIK SIRCAR Scholar in Women's Rights Faculty of Law, University of Toronto oishiksircar at gmail.com oishik.sircar at utoronto.ca -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From sevaseducationalsociety at gmail.com Fri Sep 19 01:46:11 2008 From: sevaseducationalsociety at gmail.com (Journal of Biochemical Technology) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 01:46:11 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Call for papers Message-ID: <7f648159eccf2389f33912cb0b0df481@gmail.com> Dear Scientist, The Journal of Biochemical Technology is a scientific refereed journal to be published quarterly in a year by Sevas Educational Society. It gives me immense pleasure to invite you to submit the research articles from your laboratory. The refereeing process will not generally take more than a couple of weeks. Articles that lack journal standards would be forwarded to our strong “Author’s Advisory Board” by the editor for further corrections and modifications (Absolutely FREE). The Journal encourages vast contributions including scholarly papers, reports on innovation, research in progress, short discussion papers regarding current importance in mentioned areas, news articles, short review articles etc. The detailed information about the journal and guidelines for submission of articles are available on our website: Journal Website: http://jbt.biodbs.info Journal Author Instructions: http://jbt.biodbs.info/Authorguidelines.html Sample article: http://jbt.biodbs.info/Second.pdf First Issue: http://jbt.biodbs.info August - 2008 - (Please forward this email to your biology friends, colleagues etc... ). Thanking you R.R.Siva Kiran Editor Journal of Biochemical Technology Komatipalli - 535558 Andhra Pradesh India Dissimilarities: Sevas Publication Division is committed to never sending unwelcome or unsolicited email. You received this mail because you are registered in one of our biology websites. If you are not a biologist or if you would rather not receive future messages from us, unsubscribe at any time by entering your email address in http://www.biodbs.info/best/unsubscribe.html Note: This email from "Sevas Educational Society" contains information and/or file attachments that are confidential and are intended solely for use by the addressee(s) listed above. If you are not an intended recipient of this email, or if you have received this email in error, please unsubscribe, then delete or destroy this email and its attachment(s) along with any electronic or printed copies thereof. Unauthorized use of this email or reproduction of this letter by any means is strictly prohibited. From mohit.thatte at gmail.com Fri Sep 19 13:54:34 2008 From: mohit.thatte at gmail.com (Mohit Thatte) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 01:24:34 -0700 Subject: [Reader-list] Merrill Lynch top brass to share $200 million for less than a year's worth of work In-Reply-To: <48D31CD6.20007@sarai.net> References: <48D31CD6.20007@sarai.net> Message-ID: <16189fe60809190124j51b5a057wbc484c5700f7fa1b@mail.gmail.com> >From the website of Merrill Lynch: "Merrill Lynch is one of the world's leading wealth management, capital markets and advisory companies, with offices in 40 countries and territories and total client assets of approximately $1.6 trillion." In my opinion, there is nothing amazing about this piece of news. The free market applies to labor markets as well (assuming a CEO is still classified as labor) and determines a fair price for services delivered. The CEO entered into a contract with a corporation and the contract was honored. The only people who can feel a tad aggrieved are the small investors who sank money into shares of Merrill trusting the corporation to deliver profits which it failed to do. Moreover, why should the general public have an opinion on CEO salaries? If you genuinely feel that this CEO is paid too much, then you are free to go short on Merrill, or not invest at all and remain unaffected. On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 8:30 PM, Vivek Narayanan wrote: > Amazing, isn't it? > > This might also be a good time to revive the classic song by The Coup, > "Five Million Ways to Kill a CEO": > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQthFDpYCys > Lyrics here: > http://www.ohhla.com/anonymous/coup_the/p_music/5million.cou.txt ("We > could let him change that tire / or we could all at once retire.") > > > Banking crisis: Merrill Lynch top brass set to share $200m > Even by Wall Street standards, the sums are unusually high for such a > short period of employment > > * Andrew Clark in New York > * guardian.co.uk, > * Wednesday September 17 2008 18:27 BST > > > Merrill Lynch's newly recruited chief executive, John Thain, stands to > share a $200m (£111.4m) payout with two senior lieutenants for less than > a year's work which culminated this week in the bank surrendering its > 94-year-old independence. > > The Wall Street bank known as the "thundering herd" agreed to a $50bn > takeover by Bank of America on Monday after a hasty 48 hours of > negotiation. The talks were prompted by fears over banking stability > arising from the collapse of Lehman Brothers. > > Thain, who was previously the head of the New York Stock Exchange, > joined Merrill in December with a mandate to steer the bank out of > financial trouble. When he arrived, he was given a $15m signing on > bonus. If he leaves in Bank of America's takeover, he stands to get a > further $11m in accelerated stock payouts. > > Two former Goldman Sachs executives hired by Thain are likely to do even > better. Merrill's head of global trading, Thomas Montag, who joined in > August, has already received a $39m bonus. Together with stock options > accelerated by a buyout, he could end the year with $76m. The bank's > head of strategy, Peter Kraus, was given a $95m package including > bonuses and stock awards to replace his generous compensation at Goldman > when he joined in May, according to figures obtained by Bloomberg News. > > It is yet to be determined whether any of the trio will have a role at > Bank of America. Even by the standards of Wall Street payouts, the sums > are unusually high for such a short period of employment. > > Steven Hall, a New York-based executive remuneration expert, told the > Guardian that Merrill had little choice but to honour the contracts: "At > the time they were recruiting [Thain], a negotiation took place and he > would have told them this is what his price was. You can't go back and > change things now — it's almost a kind of buyer's remorse we may be > seeing." > > Thain, 53, is a leading fundraiser for the Republican presidential > candidate John McCain. A doctor's son, he is an amateur beekeeper who > used to keep hives in his back garden. He bought a two-bedroom apartment > on New York's Park Avenue two years ago which had an asking price of > $27.5m. He was hired by Merrill to steady the ship after huge losses on > the credit markets which were run up under the leadership of ousted > chief executive Stan O'Neal. > > At a press conference this week to announce the buyout by Bank of > America, Thain admitted that selling Merrill was not the original plan: > "This isn't necessarily the outcome I would have expected when I took > the job." > > He insisted that he had made progress in tidying up Merrill: "We've been > consistently cleaning up the balance sheet, repairing the damage that > had been done over the last two or three years." > > Thain reportedly fought back tears at a meeting to brief staff on > Merrill's buyout this week. Analysts say that Merrill's liabilities were > greater than he could have anticipated when he joined — and some have > praised his decision to sell. > > Defenders of Wall Street's controversial pay packages generally argue > that although bankers do well during good times, they hold insecure jobs > which are vulnerable during downturns. > > "What we do see is that when times get tough, people lose their jobs — > and that's the ultimate in pay cuts," said Hall. > > A Merrill Lynch spokesman said the bank would not comment on executive > compensation beyond the statutory disclosures required in filings with > regulators. > > > * guardian.co.uk (c) Guardian News and Media Limited 2008 > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- -Mohit Thatte "*Smart one-liner goes here*" From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Fri Sep 19 14:09:06 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 14:09:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised In-Reply-To: <6353c690809182021u4fb74001g9064d3fa5b8b2c6f@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690809182021u4fb74001g9064d3fa5b8b2c6f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0809190139o2b07618fi3f12c82ec333f4d8@mail.gmail.com> > > > The signatories assert that "Kashmir is an inalienable element of India's > civilisational identity and symbolises the fundamental principles on which > the modern Indian state has been built." Terming national will as a > critical > component of state power, they felt that "devious adversaries" have > resorted > to psychological warfare in order to break the national will. What is India's 'civilizational identity'? Does 60 years constitute a 'civilization'? The point is, that to even raise this question is "sedition". As if those who ask this question are somehow naive deluded juvile people. Does 'pride in being Indian', whatever that is, have to be coupled with a territorial lust for land? I don't think so. Our imaginations and affections surely encompass more than the nation. And in fact they do, that is my point. Read any history book taught in school. We are so willing so claim 2,000 years of history as 'Indian history', but that history becomes 'Indian history' only 60 years ago. The march of history does not cut some straight and true swath from Ashoka to Nehru, as if 2,000 years of history is the long unfolding of the story of the 'Indian nation'. Why is this so scary to concieve is what I don't understand. Nations are not god-given entities. They are historically produced units of social organisation. Which is not to say they are of no value or that they have never played a progressive role. Or that we must have no investment in them. But its alright to question and query the nation. There is nothing divine about it. Its not 'immoral'. People who are asking these questions are not 'bad people', 'enemies of India'. People who are asking today questions about Kashmir's future and its relationship with India are asking us to think deeply and hard about how India defines her/its identity. This is a good question, it would help us all to spend some time on it. It is possible to think creatively at this moment about the very many ways in which Kashmir can relate to India. There has been some discussion of those ways on this list itself. Various kinds of autonomy arrangements, of porous borders, many things can be thought through. But to deign all such conversations as "seditious" is no way to go anywhere. best A From nazoshmasi at googlemail.com Fri Sep 19 15:49:44 2008 From: nazoshmasi at googlemail.com (Nazneen Anand Shamsi) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 11:19:44 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0809190139o2b07618fi3f12c82ec333f4d8@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690809182021u4fb74001g9064d3fa5b8b2c6f@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809190139o2b07618fi3f12c82ec333f4d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <169ff67c0809190319h31773bafjcb2950e3c0060281@mail.gmail.com> Dear Aarti, Please explain how many years constitute a civilization? For that matter, please elucidate the relationship between temporal continuity and a concept, if any? Why should 'pride in being Indian' exclude love for land? As far as history books are concerned, I would ask, who is to decide which fiction of the archives is valid? Nation state is a fragile concept, and whats wrong in subduing those who make it more vulnerable? To not to do so is I think not allow one to take a pill if one is afflicted by a minor virus and hope that the body will cope on its own...it is ridiculous isn't it? Regards Nazo On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 9:39 AM, Aarti Sethi wrote: > > > > > > The signatories assert that "Kashmir is an inalienable element of India's > > civilisational identity and symbolises the fundamental principles on > which > > the modern Indian state has been built." Terming national will as a > > critical > > component of state power, they felt that "devious adversaries" have > > resorted > > to psychological warfare in order to break the national will. > > > What is India's 'civilizational identity'? Does 60 years constitute a > 'civilization'? The point is, that to even raise this question is > "sedition". As if those who ask this question are somehow naive deluded > juvile people. Does 'pride in being Indian', whatever that is, have to be > coupled with a territorial lust for land? I don't think so. Our > imaginations > and affections surely encompass more than the nation. And in fact they do, > that is my point. Read any history book taught in school. We are so willing > so claim 2,000 years of history as 'Indian history', but that history > becomes 'Indian history' only 60 years ago. The march of history does not > cut some straight and true swath from Ashoka to Nehru, as if 2,000 years of > history is the long unfolding of the story of the 'Indian nation'. Why is > this so scary to concieve is what I don't understand. > > Nations are not god-given entities. They are historically produced units of > social organisation. Which is not to say they are of no value or that they > have never played a progressive role. Or that we must have no investment in > them. But its alright to question and query the nation. There is nothing > divine about it. Its not 'immoral'. People who are asking these questions > are not 'bad people', 'enemies of India'. > People who are asking today questions about Kashmir's future and its > relationship with India are asking us to think deeply and hard about how > India defines her/its identity. This is a good question, it would help us > all to spend some time on it. It is possible to think creatively at this > moment about the very many ways in which Kashmir can relate to India. There > has been some discussion of those ways on this list itself. Various kinds > of > autonomy arrangements, of porous borders, many things can be thought > through. But to deign all such conversations as "seditious" is no way to go > anywhere. > > best > A > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From A.Khanna at sms.ed.ac.uk Fri Sep 19 16:37:54 2008 From: A.Khanna at sms.ed.ac.uk (A Khanna) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 12:07:54 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] In blast times, eunuch goes to donate blood, is turned away: some reflections on citizenship, the body, religion and gender Message-ID: <20080919120754.9mbcg5cn8kcgo48k@www.sms.ed.ac.uk> Hi everyone, below is a newsclip forwarded from another list, thought this might be of interest to those concerned with the body of the Citizen. first a few brief and random reflections... the story below relates to someone i presume to be a member of the Hijra community in delhi. this person, named Sita, went to donate blood in light of the recent and unfortunate blasts. heris blood was refused. to me this opens up the question of what it means to be a 'citizen', and what bodies are allowed into that space – whose blood is good enough to be part of a city's brave response to a moment of trauma? It also opens up questions of the significance of spaces of thirdness in frames that are all too polarised, as seems to be the case in much talk around 'terrorism'. a couple of years back i was carrying out fieldwork in southern Gujarat, on sexuality, gender an sexualness. There are two things from this experience i shall share here. Though being careful not to allow my questions to be overdetermined by the context of hindu fundamentalism (this being Gujarat, and specifically areas where the violence against the muslim community had been particularly widespread), this fundamentalism emerged as a central theme that it would be a travesty to ignore. I mean this in the sense that a Hindu-ness ahs come to be essential to claims to legitimacy. For instance, if an NGO does not/did not perform a Hindu-ness – by clearly displaying pictures of deities, or a shrine in its office, it could well expect to be attacked as a Christian outfit and receive threats of violence. But this demand for hinduness is a a complicated thing. In my all to brief work with the Murat/Hijra community in southern Gujarat (Murat, an interesting idiom of gender - which translates simultaneously to face, idol, mask and performance and which is an extremely flamboyant queer embodiment. visibly, it is similar to Kothi and Hijra embodiments), i was struck by the strong flavour of this Hindu-ness in the narratives of self and community. While in other parts of the country the practices and beliefs of the Hijra community challenge the very notion of discrete 'religions', combining elements and practices of hinduism and islam in particular, here i was often offered narratives placed squarely within a hindu frame. For instance, Gujarat is home to one of the bigger temples of a deity, Bahuchara mata, worshipped by hijra communities from different parts of south asia. the government of Gujarat, which i am loathe to trust, estimates 1.5 million pilgrims a year. this was fact was brought to bear on the claim that there is a high respect in Gujarati society for gender-queer folk, that people on the streets would often fall at the feet of Hijras, that violence against Murats/Hijras was a travesty of not some simply rights in a frame of secular citizenship, but of a respect and position accorded these bodies within a religious cosmology. (this is not to say that there are no Muslim murats/hijras in Gujarat, but rather that they are not (any more?) as central to the narrative of the collective self-as-represented.) surely there is a history to this Hinduness (given the complex connectedness of hijra communities in different parts of south asia...), and i don't know enough about it. Given this peculiar hinduness, i was curious, what was happening in this community, and in its interactions with the world, when the organised violence was being carried out against Muslims a few years back? The Murat community is connected with all sorts of people, whether in terms of class, religion, or caste, through a thriving sexual economy. Murats have lovers and friends who are muslim, and hindu. (it is not that love/desire is blind to religion – there are widely circulating stereotypes about the sexualness, and sexual performance relating to religions and class. Working class Muslim males are most often placed at the highest level, as the best lovers, most caring and respectful, and are expected to be terrific in the sack, but that is an issue for some other time). In that scary time, i was told, the Murat/Hijra community became something of a safe space for people being hounded – lovers and their families - hindu and muslim, were afforded protection in our homes, in our neighbourhood. We are all people who have been thrown out of our own homes, who have been hounded down by this society – how can we discriminate? How can we stand back and watch? Our homes are open to all, hindu, muslim, christian. This community, in other words, emerged as a significant space, a third space perhaps, where the evocation of religious identity as the basis for violent political play was nullified. And significantly, this is not an a-religious space either. Maybe this is an instance of the solidarity of the despised, the collaborations of the margin. (on which note, i loved inder salim's poster stuck on trees at the India Social Forum in Delhi: http://pics.livejournal.com/indersalim/pic/0000c70r/ ). Or is it actually not the margin, but something central, a core of humanness that is suffocated as the pseudo-religious identities of fundamentalism crowd their objects, leaving this humanness at the margins, visible only in those despised enough to be irrelevant to their virulent projects? But then, when we 'citizens' are called upon to give our blood, our body parts, our organs, seemingly we are being asked to become the 'bare life' that may (re)build the nation. The non-citizen, however, cannot be allowed to contaminate that nation. So despised, it is, that it cannot be allowed to become part of that body. A shame? x akshay .................. beginning forwarded message: In blast times, eunuch goes to donate blood, is turned away http://metronow.wordpress.com/2008/09/17/in-blast-times-eunuch-goes-to-donate-blood-is-turned-away/ Stories of callousness of hospitals is not new. Refusing beds to the terminally ill, denying care to the sick, making them wait for hours for an appointment…the list is endless. And now, in blast times, if a recent incident at Ram Manohar Lohia Hospital is to be considered a case in point, there is discrimination against those who want to help, also. After the blasts, many people came forward to help and donate blood. Among them was Sita—a eunuch. After hearing of the plight of the victims of Saturday’s blasts, Sita wanted to help and went to RML Hospital where the doctors refused to accept her blood and turned her away. This, apparently, at a time when the hospital would have needed as much blood as possible! For the doctor at the blood bank, the fact that Sita was a eunuch was enough to send her on her way. “When I went to donate blood on Saturday around 10 pm, Dr Veena Doda, the blood bank incharge, said they did not need a eunuch’s blood and turned me away,” Sita said. Shockingly, this happened at a time when dozens of injured people had been brought to the hospital for treatment. Harsh Malhotra, secretary general, Delhi Pradesh National Panthers Party, who witnessed the incident on Saturday night, said, “It is human blood after all and in times of crisis such attitude is not acceptable. The doctor misbehaved with Sita just because she is a eunuch.” While confirming that there was a shortage of blood at the hospital, Rahul Verma of Uday Foundation—a non-profit organisation for congenital defects and rare blood groups—said, “I got phone calls from anxious relatives of victims telling me that the hospital was short of blood that evening,” he said. A NACO survey shows that, voluntary donation in Delhi is only 24 per cent. “Blood shortages are a regular feature and if hospitals are turning away donors then obviously there are no plans to increase blood donation.” Denying any knowledge of the incident, Medical Superintendent, Dr N.K. Chaturvedi, said, “At the time of the blast we had 250 units of blood of all blood groups. Many voluntary organisations came and donated blood but then we redirected the donors to Red Cross as it is centralised and all hospitals could get blood from there.” He, however, added that there was a blood donation camp at the hospital on Sunday and Monday. But why was Sita refused? Was it because she is a eunuch? “That you have to ask Dr Doda as she is the incharge of the blood bank,” said Dr Chaturvedi. Efforts to contact Dr Doda, however, failed. What’s more, even the law has provisions that prevent people like Sita from exercising their duty as a citizen. When asked, Aditya Bandyopadhyay, a gay lawyer, says, “According to the Blood Safety Regulation, there is a clause in the form (which the donor has to fill) that asks if the donor is male or female. If the answer is none, then the doctors can refuse to take blood from such a donor.” He adds that so long as Article 377 is alive, such discriminatory clauses would remain. Would you rate this as discrimination? Should eunuchs be given equal rights? ----- End forwarded message ----- - -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. -------------- next part -------------- http://metronow.wordpress.com/2008/09/17/in-blast-times-eunuch-goes-to-donate-blood-is-turned-away/   Stories of callousness of hospitals is not new. Refusing beds to the terminally ill, denying care to the sick, making them wait for hours for an appointment…the list is endless. And now, in blast times, if a recent incident at Ram Manohar Lohia Hospital is to be considered a case in point, there is discrimination against those who want to help, also.  After the blasts, many people came forward to help and donate blood. Among them was Sita—a eunuch. After hearing of the plight of the victims of Saturday’s blasts, Sita wanted to help and went to RML Hospital where the doctors refused to accept her blood and turned her away.  This, apparently, at a time when the hospital would have needed as much blood as possible! For the doctor at the blood bank, the fact that Sita was a eunuch was enough to send her on her way. “When I went to donate blood on Saturday around 10 pm, Dr Veena Doda, the blood bank incharge, said they did not need a eunuch’s blood and turned me away,” Sita said. Shockingly, this happened at a time when dozens of injured people had been brought to the hospital for treatment. Harsh Malhotra, secretary general, Delhi Pradesh National Panthers Party, who witnessed the incident on Saturday night, said, “It is human blood after all and in times of crisis such attitude is not acceptable. The doctor misbehaved with Sita just because she is a eunuch.” While confirming that there was a shortage of blood at the hospital, Rahul Verma of Uday Foundation—a non-profit organisation for congenital defects and rare blood groups—said, “I got phone calls from anxious relatives of victims telling me that the hospital was short of blood that evening,” he said. A NACO survey shows that, voluntary donation in Delhi is only 24 per cent. “Blood shortages are a regular feature and if hospitals are turning away donors then obviously there are no plans to increase blood donation.” Denying any knowledge of the incident, Medical Superintendent, Dr N.K. Chaturvedi, said, “At the time of the blast we had 250 units of blood of all blood groups. Many voluntary organisations came and donated blood but then we redirected the donors to Red Cross as it is centralised and all hospitals could get blood from there.” He, however, added that there was a blood donation camp at the hospital on Sunday and Monday. But why was Sita refused? Was it because she is a eunuch? “That you have to ask Dr Doda as she is the incharge of the blood bank,” said Dr Chaturvedi. Efforts to contact Dr Doda, however, failed. What’s more, even the law has provisions that prevent people like Sita from exercising their duty as a citizen. When asked, Aditya Bandyopadhyay, a gay lawyer, says, “According to the Blood Safety Regulation, there is a clause in the form (which the donor has to fill) that asks if the donor is male or female. If the answer is none, then the doctors can refuse to take blood from such a donor.” He adds that so long as Article 377 is alive, such discriminatory clauses would remain. Would you rate this as discrimination? Should eunuchs be given equal rights? From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Fri Sep 19 16:44:33 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 16:44:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised In-Reply-To: <169ff67c0809190317o72d3ee9l3b502a73561d1372@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690809182021u4fb74001g9064d3fa5b8b2c6f@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809190139o2b07618fi3f12c82ec333f4d8@mail.gmail.com> <169ff67c0809190317o72d3ee9l3b502a73561d1372@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0809190414g6ce8861eq441fa7d5d609bd32@mail.gmail.com> Dear Nazneen, I have no quarrel with love for land at all. And read my post again. I used a specific phrase, I said, 'territorial lust for land'. Can you love land without possessing it? That is the question. How exactly do you build a relationship with land with which you have no personal history of settlement or usage? Now obviously this is both an abstract and a concrete question. I have never been to Kashmir, does this mean I cannot have any relationship to it? Of course not! The question is what kind of relationship? When I was one year old my father went on a voyage to Antarctica. One of my most favourite memories of childhood is seeing the slides he brought back of the incredible snowscapes and ice sheets, and a rock which lay in a corner of our house for many years. Apparently it was part of a meteor which smashed into the earth some million years ago. Antarctica is part of no country. Its land is part of the common heritage of humanity, for all to build relationships with. As far as I am concerned this is the only productive, ethical and creative way to think of land. The trouble is being an Indian citizen gives me fictional 'ownership' over the entire territory of India. As if I have some special entitlement to the square miles that are part of the map. But which land, whose land and whose love? Currently there are struggles going on in this country - in singur, in nandigram, in niyamgiri, to name only three sites - where people are asking this question. Communities it seems have no right to their own land in the name of "development". And this is fine by your logic is it not? Because the development of India means that everyone has an entitlement. All land is the property of the state. When did this come to pass? Can we ask these questions? Or immediately "pills" must be taken to stamp out these viruses? Maybe your love for India entitles you to such a claim, I do not feel this entitlement. And in my opinion this sort of entitlement is where violence is born. Can you see the quagmire we are in when we begin to collapse love for/of land and territorial entitlement? They are not the same thing. What does cheering for the Indian cricket team have to do with the area per square miles of India? Believe me, I am not being facetious at all. The only reason this sounds idiotic is because we take for granted the logic of the modern nation state which consists of a sovereign entity for a territorial unit, with a standing army to defend this territory. This is the first lesson in every graduate political science lecture. And you are right, the nation state is a fragile concept. So maybe we need to ask ourselves whether this is not causing more trouble than it is worth... Regarding archives and fiction, this is a longer discussion and tangential to the point I was making. Of course we may discuss it if you wish. But just to clarify what I was saying, I can claim the heritage of the whole world as my own. There is an old humanist saying "the world is my home" and i think there is something of tremendous value here. But there are several ways in which history and heritage can be claimed. One way seems to be logic of subsuming everything, all forms of life and love and affection into the rubric of the nation and to stamp out violently any persons or forms of life which fall out of this. I am afraid this is too violent and boring for me. regards Aarti On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 3:47 PM, Nazneen Anand Shamsi < nazoshmasi at googlemail.com> wrote: > Dear Aarti, > > Please explain how many years constitute a civilization? For that matter, > please elucidate the relationship between temporal continuity and a concept, > if any? Why should 'pride in being Indian' exclude love for land? As far as > history books are concerned, I would ask, who is to decide which fiction of > the archives is valid? Nation state is a fragile concept, and whats wrong > in subduing those who make it more vulnerable? To not to do so is I think > not allow one to take a pill if one is afflicted by a minor virus and hope > that the body will cope on its own...it is ridiculous isn't it? > > Regards > > Nazo > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 9:39 AM, Aarti Sethi wrote: > >> > >> > >> > The signatories assert that "Kashmir is an inalienable element of >> India's >> > civilisational identity and symbolises the fundamental principles on >> which >> > the modern Indian state has been built." Terming national will as a >> > critical >> > component of state power, they felt that "devious adversaries" have >> > resorted >> > to psychological warfare in order to break the national will. >> >> >> What is India's 'civilizational identity'? Does 60 years constitute a >> 'civilization'? The point is, that to even raise this question is >> "sedition". As if those who ask this question are somehow naive deluded >> juvile people. Does 'pride in being Indian', whatever that is, have to be >> coupled with a territorial lust for land? I don't think so. Our >> imaginations >> and affections surely encompass more than the nation. And in fact they do, >> that is my point. Read any history book taught in school. We are so >> willing >> so claim 2,000 years of history as 'Indian history', but that history >> becomes 'Indian history' only 60 years ago. The march of history does not >> cut some straight and true swath from Ashoka to Nehru, as if 2,000 years >> of >> history is the long unfolding of the story of the 'Indian nation'. Why is >> this so scary to concieve is what I don't understand. >> >> Nations are not god-given entities. They are historically produced units >> of >> social organisation. Which is not to say they are of no value or that they >> have never played a progressive role. Or that we must have no investment >> in >> them. But its alright to question and query the nation. There is nothing >> divine about it. Its not 'immoral'. People who are asking these questions >> are not 'bad people', 'enemies of India'. >> People who are asking today questions about Kashmir's future and its >> relationship with India are asking us to think deeply and hard about how >> India defines her/its identity. This is a good question, it would help us >> all to spend some time on it. It is possible to think creatively at this >> moment about the very many ways in which Kashmir can relate to India. >> There >> has been some discussion of those ways on this list itself. Various kinds >> of >> autonomy arrangements, of porous borders, many things can be thought >> through. But to deign all such conversations as "seditious" is no way to >> go >> anywhere. >> >> best >> A >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Fri Sep 19 17:15:02 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 16:45:02 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0809190414g6ce8861eq441fa7d5d609bd32@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690809182021u4fb74001g9064d3fa5b8b2c6f@mail.gmail.com> <"48c 2916d0809190139o2b07618fi3f12c82ec333f4d8"@mail.gmail.com> <169ff67c0809190317o72d3ee9l3b502a73561d1372@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809190414g6ce8861eq441fa7d5d609bd32@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Aarti, we seem to have carried forward of the concept of freedom and rights too far without realising to be free, we have some responsibility also to the nation and society that has bestowed upon us the freedom and rights. in fact the rights have the other side of the coin, that is duties. Without duties to the society, exercising only rights is like license to behave as any individual wants, a license to tamper the rights of others in society, it is license to be irrelevant in a society which has given rights to individuals to be free. A Roy, after winning a booker prize and some dollars can not be exercising her rights without the responsibilty to the society in which she lives. If she declares herself as walking and talking republic then she has every right to say so, but her safety then, solely on her, not on the republic of India as she misbehaves in the society that she lives in A Geelani when he invokes his right of feee expression, and as activist of human rights, he has to be aware of all humans in society when he supports the terror in jamia nagar. When he stores the ground floor plan of parliament, he has to be aware that, he is neither an architect nor a civil engineer and his act can help his terrorist friends. A court may acquit him of the charges, but citizens look at him with certain apprehension, because what business he has not to inform of the terror activities that go on in his neighbourhood. ? Every citizen is police without uniform for the society, every police is citizen with uniform. When ghettos of muslims sheltor, defend the terror accused, the citizens of the nation feel sorry for ntire community and look with disdain. ----- Original Message ----- From: Aarti Sethi Date: Friday, September 19, 2008 4:45 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised To: Nazneen Anand Shamsi , sarai list > Dear Nazneen, > > > I have no quarrel with love for land at all. And read my post > again. I used > a specific phrase, I said, 'territorial lust for land'. Can you > love land > without possessing it? That is the question. > > How exactly do you build a relationship with land with which you > have no > personal history of settlement or usage? Now obviously this is > both an > abstract and a concrete question. I have never been to Kashmir, > does this > mean I cannot have any relationship to it? Of course not! The > question is > what kind of relationship? When I was one year old my father went > on a > voyage to Antarctica. One of my most favourite memories of > childhood is > seeing the slides he brought back of the incredible snowscapes and ice > sheets, and a rock which lay in a corner of our house for many years. > Apparently it was part of a meteor which smashed into the earth > some million > years ago. Antarctica is part of no country. Its land is part of > the common > heritage of humanity, for all to build relationships with. As far > as I am > concerned this is the only productive, ethical and creative way to > think of > land. > > The trouble is being an Indian citizen gives me fictional > 'ownership' over > the entire territory of India. As if I have some special > entitlement to the > square miles that are part of the map. But which land, whose land > and whose > love? Currently there are struggles going on in this country - in > singur, in > nandigram, in niyamgiri, to name only three sites - where people > are asking > this question. Communities it seems have no right to their own > land in the > name of "development". And this is fine by your logic is it not? > Because the > development of India means that everyone has an entitlement. All > land is the > property of the state. When did this come to pass? Can we ask these > questions? Or immediately "pills" must be taken to stamp out these > viruses?Maybe your love for India entitles you to such a claim, I > do not feel this > entitlement. And in my opinion this sort of entitlement is where > violence is > born. Can you see the quagmire we are in when we begin to collapse > lovefor/of land and territorial entitlement? They are not the same > thing. > What does cheering for the Indian cricket team have to do with the > area per > square miles of India? Believe me, I am not being facetious at > all. The only > reason this sounds idiotic is because we take for granted the > logic of the > modern nation state which consists of a sovereign entity for a > territorialunit, with a standing army to defend this territory. > This is the first > lesson in every graduate political science lecture. And you are > right, the > nation state is a fragile concept. So maybe we need to ask > ourselves whether > this is not causing more trouble than it is worth... > > Regarding archives and fiction, this is a longer discussion and > tangentialto the point I was making. Of course we may discuss it > if you wish. But just > to clarify what I was saying, I can claim the heritage of the > whole world as > my own. There is an old humanist saying "the world is my home" and > i think > there is something of tremendous value here. But there are several > ways in > which history and heritage can be claimed. One way seems to be > logic of > subsuming everything, all forms of life and love and affection > into the > rubric of the nation and to stamp out violently any persons or > forms of life > which fall out of this. I am afraid this is too violent and boring > for me. > > regards > Aarti > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 3:47 PM, Nazneen Anand Shamsi < > nazoshmasi at googlemail.com> wrote: > > > Dear Aarti, > > > > Please explain how many years constitute a civilization? For > that matter, > > please elucidate the relationship between temporal continuity > and a concept, > > if any? Why should 'pride in being Indian' exclude love for > land? As far as > > history books are concerned, I would ask, who is to decide which > fiction of > > the archives is valid? Nation state is a fragile concept, and > whats wrong > > in subduing those who make it more vulnerable? To not to do so > is I think > > not allow one to take a pill if one is afflicted by a minor > virus and hope > > that the body will cope on its own...it is ridiculous isn't it? > > > > Regards > > > > Nazo > > > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 9:39 AM, Aarti Sethi > wrote:> > >> > > >> > > >> > The signatories assert that "Kashmir is an inalienable > element of > >> India's > >> > civilisational identity and symbolises the fundamental > principles on > >> which > >> > the modern Indian state has been built." Terming national > will as a > >> > critical > >> > component of state power, they felt that "devious > adversaries" have > >> > resorted > >> > to psychological warfare in order to break the national will. > >> > >> > >> What is India's 'civilizational identity'? Does 60 years > constitute a > >> 'civilization'? The point is, that to even raise this question is > >> "sedition". As if those who ask this question are somehow naive > deluded>> juvile people. Does 'pride in being Indian', whatever > that is, have to be > >> coupled with a territorial lust for land? I don't think so. Our > >> imaginations > >> and affections surely encompass more than the nation. And in > fact they do, > >> that is my point. Read any history book taught in school. We > are so > >> willing > >> so claim 2,000 years of history as 'Indian history', but that > history>> becomes 'Indian history' only 60 years ago. The march of > history does not > >> cut some straight and true swath from Ashoka to Nehru, as if > 2,000 years > >> of > >> history is the long unfolding of the story of the 'Indian > nation'. Why is > >> this so scary to concieve is what I don't understand. > >> > >> Nations are not god-given entities. They are historically > produced units > >> of > >> social organisation. Which is not to say they are of no value > or that they > >> have never played a progressive role. Or that we must have no > investment>> in > >> them. But its alright to question and query the nation. There > is nothing > >> divine about it. Its not 'immoral'. People who are asking these > questions>> are not 'bad people', 'enemies of India'. > >> People who are asking today questions about Kashmir's future > and its > >> relationship with India are asking us to think deeply and hard > about how > >> India defines her/its identity. This is a good question, it > would help us > >> all to spend some time on it. It is possible to think > creatively at this > >> moment about the very many ways in which Kashmir can relate to > India.>> There > >> has been some discussion of those ways on this list itself. > Various kinds > >> of > >> autonomy arrangements, of porous borders, many things can be > thought>> through. But to deign all such conversations as > "seditious" is no way to > >> go > >> anywhere. > >> > >> best > >> A > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > >> > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From shambhu.rahmat at gmail.com Fri Sep 19 17:29:50 2008 From: shambhu.rahmat at gmail.com (Shambhu Rahmat) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 17:59:50 +0600 Subject: [Reader-list] BANGLADESH: 279 Custody Deaths in 20 Months of Emergency Message-ID: 279 fall victim to extra-judicial killing in 20 months: Says Odikhar report Staff Correspondent, The Daily Star, September 13, 2008 http://www.thedailystar.net/story.php?nid=54585 At least 279 people fell victim to extrajudicial killing by the law enforcement agencies across the country during the state of emergency between January 2007 and September 2008, revealed a study report yesterday. The report published by Odhikar, a human rights organisation, covers 20 months of the present government. The government has set up National Human Rights Commission in the country only to shore up their credibility before the international community rather than safeguarding the rights of the people, it added. The report mentioned that the National Human Rights Commission Ordinance 2007 provided for establishment of an independent body to safeguard the people's rights, but it left the power to select the chairman and members of the commission to a committee controlled by the government officials, which is an impediment to establishing an independent body. The ordinance stated that the commission would resolve the human rights violations through arbitration or mediation, but Odhikar said the violators should be tried in a court of law, which will ensure exemplary punishment of the perpetrators. Besides, Right to Information Ordinance will curb the freedom of the press and people's right to know rather than extending it, the report said, adding that if the ordinance is promulgated, a person even a journalist will need to apply in a prescribed form for information and the authority will have the power to reject the application or provide the information sought. It also expressed concern that the draft ordinance was prepared by a committee dominated by bureaucrats who ignored submissions made by key stakeholders like Federal Union of Journalists, National Press Club and South Asian Free Media Association. Odhikar observed that the tele-tapping by the state is a direct contravention of Article 43 (b) of the constitution that ensure a person's right to the privacy of his correspondence and other means of communication. The report said Truth and Accountability Communication (Tac) has not only failed to attain its desired objective, but it is also contrary to the constitutional provisions and the spirit of law. Tac's aim to re-energise the country's economy has failed. Corrupt businessmen and bureaucrats are allowed to continue their businesses and services while politicians are barred from contesting in the elections after being bestowed with mercy from the commission, it added. The report further said the government should allow trade unionism in all sectors to ensure a sustainable and healthy growth of the economy. From lalitambardar at hotmail.com Fri Sep 19 18:45:22 2008 From: lalitambardar at hotmail.com (Lalit Ambardar) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 13:15:22 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised In-Reply-To: References: <6353c690809182021u4fb74001g9064d3fa5b8b2c6f@mail.gmail.com> <"48c 2916d0809190139o2b07618fi3f12c82ec333f4d8"@mail.gmail.com> <169ff67c0809190317o72d3ee9l3b502a73561d1372@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809190414g6ce8861eq441fa7d5d609bd32@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: By the way, this 'guy' was released on 'technical grounds' only. Even one of that 'celebrity' senior most criminal lawyers could not get him relieved of this tag. And yet, he continues with his diatribe against India. And for these 'mobile citizens' they appear to be a confused lot. Here, they espouse the cause of the pan Islamism driven secessionism in Kashmir & lo, there they raise an issue on the relationship between the 'land' & 'the nation'. They have no quarrel with those who thump the 'very land' in kashmir with their heals ranting 'ragda'....'ragda' implying 'crush India'. How ironic . Those who do not want to be part of this nation are welcome to opt for the 'land of the pure' & it quite fits in to the mobile citizens' theory- you could still love the land (even if one ignores that stupid 'ragda'....'ragda' thumping....???... ) yet need not posses it. Regards all LA p s : Opposite of 'nation state' can only be 'anarchy' & 'anarchy' can only lead to 'mayhem' that is so visible in Kashmir since 1989-90. > Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 16:45:02 +0500> From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net> To: aarti.sethi at gmail.com> CC: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised> > Aarti, > > we seem to have carried forward of the concept of freedom and rights too far without realising to be free, we have some responsibility also to the nation and society that has bestowed upon us the freedom and rights. in fact the rights have the other side of the coin, that is duties. Without duties to the society, exercising only rights is like license to behave as any individual wants, a license to tamper the rights of others in society, it is license to be irrelevant in a society which has given rights to individuals to be free.> > A Roy, after winning a booker prize and some dollars can not be exercising her rights without the responsibilty to the society in which she lives. If she declares herself as walking and talking republic then she has every right to say so, but her safety then, solely on her, not on the republic of India as she misbehaves in the society that she lives in> > A Geelani when he invokes his right of feee expression, and as activist of human rights, he has to be aware of all humans in society when he supports the terror in jamia nagar. When he stores the ground floor plan of parliament, he has to be aware that, he is neither an architect nor a civil engineer and his act can help his terrorist friends. A court may acquit him of the charges, but citizens look at him with certain apprehension, because what business he has not to inform of the terror activities that go on in his neighbourhood. ? Every citizen is police without uniform for the society, every police is citizen with uniform. When ghettos of muslims sheltor, defend the terror accused, the citizens of the nation feel sorry for ntire community and look with disdain.> > ----- Original Message -----> From: Aarti Sethi > Date: Friday, September 19, 2008 4:45 pm> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised> To: Nazneen Anand Shamsi , sarai list > > > Dear Nazneen,> > > > > > I have no quarrel with love for land at all. And read my post > > again. I used> > a specific phrase, I said, 'territorial lust for land'. Can you > > love land> > without possessing it? That is the question.> > > > How exactly do you build a relationship with land with which you > > have no> > personal history of settlement or usage? Now obviously this is > > both an> > abstract and a concrete question. I have never been to Kashmir, > > does this> > mean I cannot have any relationship to it? Of course not! The > > question is> > what kind of relationship? When I was one year old my father went > > on a> > voyage to Antarctica. One of my most favourite memories of > > childhood is> > seeing the slides he brought back of the incredible snowscapes and ice> > sheets, and a rock which lay in a corner of our house for many years.> > Apparently it was part of a meteor which smashed into the earth > > some million> > years ago. Antarctica is part of no country. Its land is part of > > the common> > heritage of humanity, for all to build relationships with. As far > > as I am> > concerned this is the only productive, ethical and creative way to > > think of> > land.> > > > The trouble is being an Indian citizen gives me fictional > > 'ownership' over> > the entire territory of India. As if I have some special > > entitlement to the> > square miles that are part of the map. But which land, whose land > > and whose> > love? Currently there are struggles going on in this country - in > > singur, in> > nandigram, in niyamgiri, to name only three sites - where people > > are asking> > this question. Communities it seems have no right to their own > > land in the> > name of "development". And this is fine by your logic is it not? > > Because the> > development of India means that everyone has an entitlement. All > > land is the> > property of the state. When did this come to pass? Can we ask these> > questions? Or immediately "pills" must be taken to stamp out these > > viruses?Maybe your love for India entitles you to such a claim, I > > do not feel this> > entitlement. And in my opinion this sort of entitlement is where > > violence is> > born. Can you see the quagmire we are in when we begin to collapse > > lovefor/of land and territorial entitlement? They are not the same > > thing.> > What does cheering for the Indian cricket team have to do with the > > area per> > square miles of India? Believe me, I am not being facetious at > > all. The only> > reason this sounds idiotic is because we take for granted the > > logic of the> > modern nation state which consists of a sovereign entity for a > > territorialunit, with a standing army to defend this territory. > > This is the first> > lesson in every graduate political science lecture. And you are > > right, the> > nation state is a fragile concept. So maybe we need to ask > > ourselves whether> > this is not causing more trouble than it is worth...> > > > Regarding archives and fiction, this is a longer discussion and > > tangentialto the point I was making. Of course we may discuss it > > if you wish. But just> > to clarify what I was saying, I can claim the heritage of the > > whole world as> > my own. There is an old humanist saying "the world is my home" and > > i think> > there is something of tremendous value here. But there are several > > ways in> > which history and heritage can be claimed. One way seems to be > > logic of> > subsuming everything, all forms of life and love and affection > > into the> > rubric of the nation and to stamp out violently any persons or > > forms of life> > which fall out of this. I am afraid this is too violent and boring > > for me.> > > > regards> > Aarti> > > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 3:47 PM, Nazneen Anand Shamsi <> > nazoshmasi at googlemail.com> wrote:> > > > > Dear Aarti,> > >> > > Please explain how many years constitute a civilization? For > > that matter,> > > please elucidate the relationship between temporal continuity > > and a concept,> > > if any? Why should 'pride in being Indian' exclude love for > > land? As far as> > > history books are concerned, I would ask, who is to decide which > > fiction of> > > the archives is valid? Nation state is a fragile concept, and > > whats wrong> > > in subduing those who make it more vulnerable? To not to do so > > is I think> > > not allow one to take a pill if one is afflicted by a minor > > virus and hope> > > that the body will cope on its own...it is ridiculous isn't it?> > >> > > Regards> > >> > > Nazo> > >> > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 9:39 AM, Aarti Sethi > > wrote:>> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > The signatories assert that "Kashmir is an inalienable > > element of> > >> India's> > >> > civilisational identity and symbolises the fundamental > > principles on> > >> which> > >> > the modern Indian state has been built." Terming national > > will as a> > >> > critical> > >> > component of state power, they felt that "devious > > adversaries" have> > >> > resorted> > >> > to psychological warfare in order to break the national will.> > >>> > >>> > >> What is India's 'civilizational identity'? Does 60 years > > constitute a> > >> 'civilization'? The point is, that to even raise this question is> > >> "sedition". As if those who ask this question are somehow naive > > deluded>> juvile people. Does 'pride in being Indian', whatever > > that is, have to be> > >> coupled with a territorial lust for land? I don't think so. Our> > >> imaginations> > >> and affections surely encompass more than the nation. And in > > fact they do,> > >> that is my point. Read any history book taught in school. We > > are so> > >> willing> > >> so claim 2,000 years of history as 'Indian history', but that > > history>> becomes 'Indian history' only 60 years ago. The march of > > history does not> > >> cut some straight and true swath from Ashoka to Nehru, as if > > 2,000 years> > >> of> > >> history is the long unfolding of the story of the 'Indian > > nation'. Why is> > >> this so scary to concieve is what I don't understand.> > >>> > >> Nations are not god-given entities. They are historically > > produced units> > >> of> > >> social organisation. Which is not to say they are of no value > > or that they> > >> have never played a progressive role. Or that we must have no > > investment>> in> > >> them. But its alright to question and query the nation. There > > is nothing> > >> divine about it. Its not 'immoral'. People who are asking these > > questions>> are not 'bad people', 'enemies of India'.> > >> People who are asking today questions about Kashmir's future > > and its> > >> relationship with India are asking us to think deeply and hard > > about how> > >> India defines her/its identity. This is a good question, it > > would help us> > >> all to spend some time on it. It is possible to think > > creatively at this> > >> moment about the very many ways in which Kashmir can relate to > > India.>> There> > >> has been some discussion of those ways on this list itself. > > Various kinds> > >> of> > >> autonomy arrangements, of porous borders, many things can be > > thought>> through. But to deign all such conversations as > > "seditious" is no way to> > >> go> > >> anywhere.> > >>> > >> best> > >> A> > >> _________________________________________> > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > >> Critiques & Collaborations> > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > >> subscribe in the subject header.> > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > >> List archive: > > >>> > >> > >> > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-> > list > > List archive: > > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Searching for weekend getaways? Try Live.com http://www.live.com/?scope=video&form=MICOAL From indersalim at gmail.com Fri Sep 19 19:43:15 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 19:43:15 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] In blast times, eunuch goes to donate blood, is turned away: some reflections on citizenship, the body, religion and gender In-Reply-To: <20080919120754.9mbcg5cn8kcgo48k@www.sms.ed.ac.uk> References: <20080919120754.9mbcg5cn8kcgo48k@www.sms.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47e122a70809190713g190d301fp155de378bce436f9@mail.gmail.com> Dear Akshay it is all very sad....treatment to this community in our society is quite disappointing. it just happens that today i was talking to a eunach about the possiblity to do some theatre with 'hijras ' only thanks for comment on indersalim poster love is On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 4:37 PM, A Khanna wrote: > Hi everyone, > > below is a newsclip forwarded from another list, thought this might be of > interest to those concerned with the body of the Citizen. first a few brief > and random reflections... > > the story below relates to someone i presume to be a member of the Hijra > community in delhi. this person, named Sita, went to donate blood in light > of the recent and unfortunate blasts. heris blood was refused. to me this > opens up the question of what it means to be a 'citizen', and what bodies > are allowed into that space – whose blood is good enough to be part of a > city's brave response to a moment of trauma? It also opens up questions of > the significance of spaces of thirdness in frames that are all too > polarised, as seems to be the case in much talk around 'terrorism'. a couple > of years back i was carrying out fieldwork in southern Gujarat, on > sexuality, gender an sexualness. There are two things from this experience i > shall share here. > > Though being careful not to allow my questions to be overdetermined by the > context of hindu fundamentalism (this being Gujarat, and specifically areas > where the violence against the muslim community had been particularly > widespread), this fundamentalism emerged as a central theme that it would be > a travesty to ignore. I mean this in the sense that a Hindu-ness ahs come to > be essential to claims to legitimacy. For instance, if an NGO does not/did > not perform a Hindu-ness – by clearly displaying pictures of deities, or a > shrine in its office, it could well expect to be attacked as a Christian > outfit and receive threats of violence. But this demand for hinduness is a a > complicated thing. In my all to brief work with the Murat/Hijra community in > southern Gujarat (Murat, an interesting idiom of gender - which translates > simultaneously to face, idol, mask and performance and which is an extremely > flamboyant queer embodiment. visibly, it is similar to Kothi and Hijra > embodiments), i was struck by the strong flavour of this Hindu-ness in the > narratives of self and community. While in other parts of the country the > practices and beliefs of the Hijra community challenge the very notion of > discrete 'religions', combining elements and practices of hinduism and islam > in particular, here i was often offered narratives placed squarely within a > hindu frame. For instance, Gujarat is home to one of the bigger temples of a > deity, Bahuchara mata, worshipped by hijra communities from different parts > of south asia. the government of Gujarat, which i am loathe to trust, > estimates 1.5 million pilgrims a year. this was fact was brought to bear on > the claim that there is a high respect in Gujarati society for gender-queer > folk, that people on the streets would often fall at the feet of Hijras, > that violence against Murats/Hijras was a travesty of not some simply rights > in a frame of secular citizenship, but of a respect and position accorded > these bodies within a religious cosmology. (this is not to say that there > are no Muslim murats/hijras in Gujarat, but rather that they are not (any > more?) as central to the narrative of the collective self-as-represented.) > surely there is a history to this Hinduness (given the complex connectedness > of hijra communities in different parts of south asia...), and i don't know > enough about it. > > Given this peculiar hinduness, i was curious, what was happening in this > community, and in its interactions with the world, when the organised > violence was being carried out against Muslims a few years back? The Murat > community is connected with all sorts of people, whether in terms of class, > religion, or caste, through a thriving sexual economy. Murats have lovers > and friends who are muslim, and hindu. (it is not that love/desire is blind > to religion – there are widely circulating stereotypes about the sexualness, > and sexual performance relating to religions and class. Working class Muslim > males are most often placed at the highest level, as the best lovers, most > caring and respectful, and are expected to be terrific in the sack, but that > is an issue for some other time). > > In that scary time, i was told, the Murat/Hijra community became something > of a safe space for people being hounded – lovers and their families - hindu > and muslim, were afforded protection in our homes, in our neighbourhood. We > are all people who have been thrown out of our own homes, who have been > hounded down by this society – how can we discriminate? How can we stand > back and watch? Our homes are open to all, hindu, muslim, christian. > > This community, in other words, emerged as a significant space, a third > space perhaps, where the evocation of religious identity as the basis for > violent political play was nullified. And significantly, this is not an > a-religious space either. Maybe this is an instance of the solidarity of the > despised, the collaborations of the margin. (on which note, i loved inder > salim's poster stuck on trees at the India Social Forum in Delhi: > http://pics.livejournal.com/indersalim/pic/0000c70r/ ). Or is it actually > not the margin, but something central, a core of humanness that is > suffocated as the pseudo-religious identities of fundamentalism crowd their > objects, leaving this humanness at the margins, visible only in those > despised enough to be irrelevant to their virulent projects? > > But then, when we 'citizens' are called upon to give our blood, our body > parts, our organs, seemingly we are being asked to become the 'bare life' > that may (re)build the nation. The non-citizen, however, cannot be allowed > to contaminate that nation. So despised, it is, that it cannot be allowed > to become part of that body. A shame? > > x > > akshay > > .................. > beginning forwarded message: > > > In blast times, eunuch goes to donate blood, is turned away > > http://metronow.wordpress.com/2008/09/17/in-blast-times-eunuch-goes-to-donate-blood-is-turned-away/ > > Stories of callousness of hospitals is not new. Refusing beds to the > terminally ill, denying care to the sick, making them wait for hours for an > appointment…the list is endless. > And now, in blast times, if a recent incident at Ram Manohar Lohia Hospital > is to be considered a case in point, there is discrimination against those > who want to help, also. > After the blasts, many people came forward to help and donate blood. Among > them was Sita—a eunuch. After hearing of the plight of the victims of > Saturday's blasts, Sita wanted to help and went to RML Hospital where the > doctors refused to accept her blood and turned her away. > This, apparently, at a time when the hospital would have needed as much > blood as possible! > For the doctor at the blood bank, the fact that Sita was a eunuch was enough > to send her on her way. "When I went to donate blood on Saturday around 10 > pm, Dr Veena Doda, the blood bank incharge, said they did not need a > eunuch's blood and turned me away," Sita said. Shockingly, this happened at > a time when dozens of injured people had been brought to the hospital for > treatment. > Harsh Malhotra, secretary general, Delhi Pradesh National Panthers Party, > who witnessed the incident on Saturday night, said, "It is human blood after > all and in times of crisis such attitude is not acceptable. The doctor > misbehaved with Sita just because she is a eunuch." > While confirming that there was a shortage of blood at the hospital, Rahul > Verma of Uday Foundation—a non-profit organisation for congenital defects > and rare blood groups—said, "I got phone calls from anxious relatives of > victims telling me that the hospital was short of blood that evening," he > said. > A NACO survey shows that, voluntary donation in Delhi is only 24 per cent. > "Blood shortages are a regular feature and if hospitals are turning away > donors then obviously there are no plans to increase blood donation." > Denying any knowledge of the incident, Medical Superintendent, Dr N.K. > Chaturvedi, said, "At the time of the blast we had 250 units of blood of all > blood groups. Many voluntary organisations came and donated blood but then > we redirected the donors to Red Cross as it is centralised and all hospitals > could get blood from there." He, however, added that there was a blood > donation camp at the hospital on Sunday and Monday. > But why was Sita refused? Was it because she is a eunuch? "That you have to > ask Dr Doda as she is the incharge of the blood bank," said Dr Chaturvedi. > Efforts to contact Dr Doda, however, failed. > What's more, even the law has provisions that prevent people like Sita from > exercising their duty as a citizen. > When asked, Aditya Bandyopadhyay, a gay lawyer, says, "According to the > Blood Safety Regulation, there is a clause in the form (which the donor has > to fill) that asks if the donor is male or female. If the answer is none, > then the doctors can refuse to take blood from such a donor." He adds that > so long as Article 377 is alive, such discriminatory clauses would remain. > Would you rate this as discrimination? Should eunuchs be given equal rights? > > > > > ----- End forwarded message ----- > > - --The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in > Scotland, with registration number SC005336. > > > http://metronow.wordpress.com/2008/09/17/in-blast-times-eunuch-goes-to-donate-blood-is-turned-away/ > > Stories of callousness of hospitals is not new. Refusing beds to the > terminally ill, denying care to the sick, making them wait for hours for an > appointment…the list is endless. > And now, in blast times, if a recent incident at Ram Manohar Lohia Hospital > is to be considered a case in point, there is discrimination against those > who want to help, also. > After the blasts, many people came forward to help and donate blood. Among > them was Sita—a eunuch. After hearing of the plight of the victims of > Saturday's blasts, Sita wanted to help and went to RML Hospital where the > doctors refused to accept her blood and turned her away. > This, apparently, at a time when the hospital would have needed as much > blood as possible! > For the doctor at the blood bank, the fact that Sita was a eunuch was enough > to send her on her way. "When I went to donate blood on Saturday around 10 > pm, Dr Veena Doda, the blood bank incharge, said they did not need a > eunuch's blood and turned me away," Sita said. Shockingly, this happened at > a time when dozens of injured people had been brought to the hospital for > treatment. > Harsh Malhotra, secretary general, Delhi Pradesh National Panthers Party, > who witnessed the incident on Saturday night, said, "It is human blood after > all and in times of crisis such attitude is not acceptable. The doctor > misbehaved with Sita just because she is a eunuch." > While confirming that there was a shortage of blood at the hospital, Rahul > Verma of Uday Foundation—a non-profit organisation for congenital defects > and rare blood groups—said, "I got phone calls from anxious relatives of > victims telling me that the hospital was short of blood that evening," he > said. > A NACO survey shows that, voluntary donation in Delhi is only 24 per cent. > "Blood shortages are a regular feature and if hospitals are turning away > donors then obviously there are no plans to increase blood donation." > Denying any knowledge of the incident, Medical Superintendent, Dr N.K. > Chaturvedi, said, "At the time of the blast we had 250 units of blood of all > blood groups. Many voluntary organisations came and donated blood but then > we redirected the donors to Red Cross as it is centralised and all hospitals > could get blood from there." He, however, added that there was a blood > donation camp at the hospital on Sunday and Monday. > But why was Sita refused? Was it because she is a eunuch? "That you have to > ask Dr Doda as she is the incharge of the blood bank," said Dr Chaturvedi. > Efforts to contact Dr Doda, however, failed. > What's more, even the law has provisions that prevent people like Sita from > exercising their duty as a citizen. > When asked, Aditya Bandyopadhyay, a gay lawyer, says, "According to the > Blood Safety Regulation, there is a clause in the form (which the donor has > to fill) that asks if the donor is male or female. If the answer is none, > then the doctors can refuse to take blood from such a donor." He adds that > so long as Article 377 is alive, such discriminatory clauses would remain. > Would you rate this as discrimination? Should eunuchs be given equal rights? > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From indersalim at gmail.com Fri Sep 19 20:08:38 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 20:08:38 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] In blast times, eunuch goes to donate blood, is turned away: some reflections on citizenship, the body, religion and gender In-Reply-To: <47e122a70809190713g190d301fp155de378bce436f9@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080919120754.9mbcg5cn8kcgo48k@www.sms.ed.ac.uk> <47e122a70809190713g190d301fp155de378bce436f9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70809190738n760e01d1p3c1724f0d3f34a36@mail.gmail.com> just click to see image in solidarity with eunachs http://pics.livejournal.com/indersalim/pic/000657qa/ On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 7:43 PM, inder salim wrote: > Dear Akshay > it is all very sad....treatment to this community in our society is > quite disappointing. > it just happens that today i was talking to a eunach about the > possiblity to do some theatre with 'hijras ' only > > thanks for comment on indersalim poster > > love > is > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 4:37 PM, A Khanna wrote: >> Hi everyone, >> >> below is a newsclip forwarded from another list, thought this might be of >> interest to those concerned with the body of the Citizen. first a few brief >> and random reflections... >> >> the story below relates to someone i presume to be a member of the Hijra >> community in delhi. this person, named Sita, went to donate blood in light >> of the recent and unfortunate blasts. heris blood was refused. to me this >> opens up the question of what it means to be a 'citizen', and what bodies >> are allowed into that space – whose blood is good enough to be part of a >> city's brave response to a moment of trauma? It also opens up questions of >> the significance of spaces of thirdness in frames that are all too >> polarised, as seems to be the case in much talk around 'terrorism'. a couple >> of years back i was carrying out fieldwork in southern Gujarat, on >> sexuality, gender an sexualness. There are two things from this experience i >> shall share here. >> >> Though being careful not to allow my questions to be overdetermined by the >> context of hindu fundamentalism (this being Gujarat, and specifically areas >> where the violence against the muslim community had been particularly >> widespread), this fundamentalism emerged as a central theme that it would be >> a travesty to ignore. I mean this in the sense that a Hindu-ness ahs come to >> be essential to claims to legitimacy. For instance, if an NGO does not/did >> not perform a Hindu-ness – by clearly displaying pictures of deities, or a >> shrine in its office, it could well expect to be attacked as a Christian >> outfit and receive threats of violence. But this demand for hinduness is a a >> complicated thing. In my all to brief work with the Murat/Hijra community in >> southern Gujarat (Murat, an interesting idiom of gender - which translates >> simultaneously to face, idol, mask and performance and which is an extremely >> flamboyant queer embodiment. visibly, it is similar to Kothi and Hijra >> embodiments), i was struck by the strong flavour of this Hindu-ness in the >> narratives of self and community. While in other parts of the country the >> practices and beliefs of the Hijra community challenge the very notion of >> discrete 'religions', combining elements and practices of hinduism and islam >> in particular, here i was often offered narratives placed squarely within a >> hindu frame. For instance, Gujarat is home to one of the bigger temples of a >> deity, Bahuchara mata, worshipped by hijra communities from different parts >> of south asia. the government of Gujarat, which i am loathe to trust, >> estimates 1.5 million pilgrims a year. this was fact was brought to bear on >> the claim that there is a high respect in Gujarati society for gender-queer >> folk, that people on the streets would often fall at the feet of Hijras, >> that violence against Murats/Hijras was a travesty of not some simply rights >> in a frame of secular citizenship, but of a respect and position accorded >> these bodies within a religious cosmology. (this is not to say that there >> are no Muslim murats/hijras in Gujarat, but rather that they are not (any >> more?) as central to the narrative of the collective self-as-represented.) >> surely there is a history to this Hinduness (given the complex connectedness >> of hijra communities in different parts of south asia...), and i don't know >> enough about it. >> >> Given this peculiar hinduness, i was curious, what was happening in this >> community, and in its interactions with the world, when the organised >> violence was being carried out against Muslims a few years back? The Murat >> community is connected with all sorts of people, whether in terms of class, >> religion, or caste, through a thriving sexual economy. Murats have lovers >> and friends who are muslim, and hindu. (it is not that love/desire is blind >> to religion – there are widely circulating stereotypes about the sexualness, >> and sexual performance relating to religions and class. Working class Muslim >> males are most often placed at the highest level, as the best lovers, most >> caring and respectful, and are expected to be terrific in the sack, but that >> is an issue for some other time). >> >> In that scary time, i was told, the Murat/Hijra community became something >> of a safe space for people being hounded – lovers and their families - hindu >> and muslim, were afforded protection in our homes, in our neighbourhood. We >> are all people who have been thrown out of our own homes, who have been >> hounded down by this society – how can we discriminate? How can we stand >> back and watch? Our homes are open to all, hindu, muslim, christian. >> >> This community, in other words, emerged as a significant space, a third >> space perhaps, where the evocation of religious identity as the basis for >> violent political play was nullified. And significantly, this is not an >> a-religious space either. Maybe this is an instance of the solidarity of the >> despised, the collaborations of the margin. (on which note, i loved inder >> salim's poster stuck on trees at the India Social Forum in Delhi: >> http://pics.livejournal.com/indersalim/pic/0000c70r/ ). Or is it actually >> not the margin, but something central, a core of humanness that is >> suffocated as the pseudo-religious identities of fundamentalism crowd their >> objects, leaving this humanness at the margins, visible only in those >> despised enough to be irrelevant to their virulent projects? >> >> But then, when we 'citizens' are called upon to give our blood, our body >> parts, our organs, seemingly we are being asked to become the 'bare life' >> that may (re)build the nation. The non-citizen, however, cannot be allowed >> to contaminate that nation. So despised, it is, that it cannot be allowed >> to become part of that body. A shame? >> >> x >> >> akshay >> >> .................. >> beginning forwarded message: >> >> >> In blast times, eunuch goes to donate blood, is turned away >> >> http://metronow.wordpress.com/2008/09/17/in-blast-times-eunuch-goes-to-donate-blood-is-turned-away/ >> >> Stories of callousness of hospitals is not new. Refusing beds to the >> terminally ill, denying care to the sick, making them wait for hours for an >> appointment…the list is endless. >> And now, in blast times, if a recent incident at Ram Manohar Lohia Hospital >> is to be considered a case in point, there is discrimination against those >> who want to help, also. >> After the blasts, many people came forward to help and donate blood. Among >> them was Sita—a eunuch. After hearing of the plight of the victims of >> Saturday's blasts, Sita wanted to help and went to RML Hospital where the >> doctors refused to accept her blood and turned her away. >> This, apparently, at a time when the hospital would have needed as much >> blood as possible! >> For the doctor at the blood bank, the fact that Sita was a eunuch was enough >> to send her on her way. "When I went to donate blood on Saturday around 10 >> pm, Dr Veena Doda, the blood bank incharge, said they did not need a >> eunuch's blood and turned me away," Sita said. Shockingly, this happened at >> a time when dozens of injured people had been brought to the hospital for >> treatment. >> Harsh Malhotra, secretary general, Delhi Pradesh National Panthers Party, >> who witnessed the incident on Saturday night, said, "It is human blood after >> all and in times of crisis such attitude is not acceptable. The doctor >> misbehaved with Sita just because she is a eunuch." >> While confirming that there was a shortage of blood at the hospital, Rahul >> Verma of Uday Foundation—a non-profit organisation for congenital defects >> and rare blood groups—said, "I got phone calls from anxious relatives of >> victims telling me that the hospital was short of blood that evening," he >> said. >> A NACO survey shows that, voluntary donation in Delhi is only 24 per cent. >> "Blood shortages are a regular feature and if hospitals are turning away >> donors then obviously there are no plans to increase blood donation." >> Denying any knowledge of the incident, Medical Superintendent, Dr N.K. >> Chaturvedi, said, "At the time of the blast we had 250 units of blood of all >> blood groups. Many voluntary organisations came and donated blood but then >> we redirected the donors to Red Cross as it is centralised and all hospitals >> could get blood from there." He, however, added that there was a blood >> donation camp at the hospital on Sunday and Monday. >> But why was Sita refused? Was it because she is a eunuch? "That you have to >> ask Dr Doda as she is the incharge of the blood bank," said Dr Chaturvedi. >> Efforts to contact Dr Doda, however, failed. >> What's more, even the law has provisions that prevent people like Sita from >> exercising their duty as a citizen. >> When asked, Aditya Bandyopadhyay, a gay lawyer, says, "According to the >> Blood Safety Regulation, there is a clause in the form (which the donor has >> to fill) that asks if the donor is male or female. If the answer is none, >> then the doctors can refuse to take blood from such a donor." He adds that >> so long as Article 377 is alive, such discriminatory clauses would remain. >> Would you rate this as discrimination? Should eunuchs be given equal rights? >> >> >> >> >> ----- End forwarded message ----- >> >> - --The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in >> Scotland, with registration number SC005336. >> >> >> http://metronow.wordpress.com/2008/09/17/in-blast-times-eunuch-goes-to-donate-blood-is-turned-away/ >> >> Stories of callousness of hospitals is not new. Refusing beds to the >> terminally ill, denying care to the sick, making them wait for hours for an >> appointment…the list is endless. >> And now, in blast times, if a recent incident at Ram Manohar Lohia Hospital >> is to be considered a case in point, there is discrimination against those >> who want to help, also. >> After the blasts, many people came forward to help and donate blood. Among >> them was Sita—a eunuch. After hearing of the plight of the victims of >> Saturday's blasts, Sita wanted to help and went to RML Hospital where the >> doctors refused to accept her blood and turned her away. >> This, apparently, at a time when the hospital would have needed as much >> blood as possible! >> For the doctor at the blood bank, the fact that Sita was a eunuch was enough >> to send her on her way. "When I went to donate blood on Saturday around 10 >> pm, Dr Veena Doda, the blood bank incharge, said they did not need a >> eunuch's blood and turned me away," Sita said. Shockingly, this happened at >> a time when dozens of injured people had been brought to the hospital for >> treatment. >> Harsh Malhotra, secretary general, Delhi Pradesh National Panthers Party, >> who witnessed the incident on Saturday night, said, "It is human blood after >> all and in times of crisis such attitude is not acceptable. The doctor >> misbehaved with Sita just because she is a eunuch." >> While confirming that there was a shortage of blood at the hospital, Rahul >> Verma of Uday Foundation—a non-profit organisation for congenital defects >> and rare blood groups—said, "I got phone calls from anxious relatives of >> victims telling me that the hospital was short of blood that evening," he >> said. >> A NACO survey shows that, voluntary donation in Delhi is only 24 per cent. >> "Blood shortages are a regular feature and if hospitals are turning away >> donors then obviously there are no plans to increase blood donation." >> Denying any knowledge of the incident, Medical Superintendent, Dr N.K. >> Chaturvedi, said, "At the time of the blast we had 250 units of blood of all >> blood groups. Many voluntary organisations came and donated blood but then >> we redirected the donors to Red Cross as it is centralised and all hospitals >> could get blood from there." He, however, added that there was a blood >> donation camp at the hospital on Sunday and Monday. >> But why was Sita refused? Was it because she is a eunuch? "That you have to >> ask Dr Doda as she is the incharge of the blood bank," said Dr Chaturvedi. >> Efforts to contact Dr Doda, however, failed. >> What's more, even the law has provisions that prevent people like Sita from >> exercising their duty as a citizen. >> When asked, Aditya Bandyopadhyay, a gay lawyer, says, "According to the >> Blood Safety Regulation, there is a clause in the form (which the donor has >> to fill) that asks if the donor is male or female. If the answer is none, >> then the doctors can refuse to take blood from such a donor." He adds that >> so long as Article 377 is alive, such discriminatory clauses would remain. >> Would you rate this as discrimination? Should eunuchs be given equal rights? >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe >> in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 19 20:25:49 2008 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 07:55:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Today's "media circus" at Jamia Message-ID: <622636.12444.qm@web51412.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Friends I have titled this message the “media circus”, although I am actually referring to this morning’s so-called encounter killing of two young people referred to as “terrorists” in L-18 Batla House, Jamia Nagar, by the Delhi police. I call it media circus because that’s what I think it really is, like many more such incidents. The incident happened in my neigbourhood, about 150 meters from my house. So I have the opportunity to see how things are turning up. I had gone out of the area for some work while the incident was taking place around 11 am, but found it impossible to reach back home 2 hours later, because the road for about 1 and a half kilometer (on both sides) was completely blocked, not by the police vehicles, but by the parked OB vans of the countless TV channels, some of which I never heard of before. Each of these vehicles had its generators on, and thick video cables jetting out of them for several meters to the other end where the cameraperson and the excited anchor were shouting how two terrorists have been killed in the fierce encounter. Most local people are surprised at the speed with which the TV crews arrived here and in such large number. Apparently, the Delhi Police had already told a section of the press they are going for a raid in Batla House, based on the suspect Abu Bashir’s tip-off (I heard this from a anchor on Times NOW channel, although Police chief Dadwal is now denying there is any link with Abu Bashir), but they didn’t obviously say it was going to be an encounter. Its strange that the local residents got to know about the incident only after the two people had been killed – many in fact learnt it from the Aaj-tak channel. They claim they heard only the police firing and no gunshots from inside the flat, which the police claim have injured two of their constables. Most of you watching news TV in your homes may have already heard the cacophony of the TV anchors, each trying to be shriller than the other to prove that the local members of the Indian Mujahideen have been killed. They now seem to have memorized their lines on this issue well, since they have to repeat the same thing again and again. The graphics, animated logos, crawling tickers, and dramatic music/soundtrack to go with such coverage are always ready in the cans to be used at short notice. A cameraman running towards Batla House is nibbling at a burger while he holds on to a camera in his other hand. I saw two members of a TV crew outside the Holy Family Hospital (where the injured policemen have been taken) fiercely fight about which camera angle would look best for a sound byte. Everything looks as if planned and part of the usual business. The cops are happily allowing the media to climb any wall to get the best shot while they beat the local rickshawpullers to leave the roads clean. The message has got across loud and clear: we told you – Batla House is a haven of terrorists. But many things sound fishy. I’ve been hearing a lot of angry conversations in the neighborhood: people are asking that if the police had only planned a simple raid (which they did 2 days ago in Zakir Nagar and Abul Fazl Enclave too), why did they have to bring battalions of police and encounter specialists with AK-56 and other deadly looking guns (that I myself saw) in advance. And why is the media called in even before the residents are told. Of course the fact the this happens in the month of Ramzan, on a Friday, and near a large mosque where people were going to gather in large numbers later for prayers, sounds just too predictable and clichéd for anyone’s imagination. Some locals claim that the police had been visiting this place (and that particular house) since last few days, and the so-called terrorists and their weapons were probably “planted” last night for this encounter. This claim would obviously find no takers in the presently created euphoria (did you see any channel showing a sound byte to this affect?) I didn’t find a single local resident who is not fed up with this oft-repeated image of Jamia Nagar as harboring terrorists. But none of the channels I saw aired the public angst against their portrayal. To be honest, one shouldn’t deny that the Batla House area has some criminal and anti-social elements, just as Darya Ganj or Shahadra or Govindpuri would have. But most local residents believe that for Jamia to become a haven of such criminal elements, the local police and land-mafia are equally responsible. Jamia area is one of the rare localities of Delhi where the rule of law doesn’t apply in most spheres. The land mafia openly indulges in illegal construction; no rules of traffic apply here, the condition of civic amenities is abysmal. Illegal shops, factories (many with child labour) and businesses operate here actively with police connivance. The local politicians (MLA, councilors) are actually part of the problem rather than the solution. There is a full-scale illegal ISBT (bus stand) running in Batla House’s backyard to bring hundreds of migrants everyday from small towns of UP (you can see the police openly accepting bribe from its operators any day). There is no question of sealing whatever the heck business you may run here, and most places stink with heaps of garbage everywhere. There are no RWAs or citizen’s initiatives to discuss the problems. It is truly a manufactured ghetto of Delhi – why don’t all these problems happen in Lajpat Nagar or Kalkaji? I am positive that the authorities are aware that criminals (or what they call terrorists) exist here. But they deliberately allow them to thrive here – never to be touched in the normal/peaceful times – keep them for the right time. It is as if Batla House is a laboratory or breeding ground where things are allowed to grow by providing all the required ingredients and safety. The fruits are plucked only when they are ripe (or required). So today, they simply came to gather the fruit they had sown, and made a big exhibition of it by calling the media. The local people, frightened that the next encounter may happen in their house, simply squirm and hide in their personal ghettos. In all this, a big responsibility lies with the media, and I am yet to come across bold and honest reporters who are ready to go beyond the obvious and investigate the truth – not simply repeat what is told to them by the authorities or their channel bosses. Yousuf Saeed September 19, 2008 From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Fri Sep 19 21:24:56 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 20:54:56 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Conference of Kashmiri Pandits to chalk future strategy Message-ID: <6353c690809190854y5835e852ucc3e0b6be16ebf9e@mail.gmail.com> Conference of Kashmiri Pandits to chalk future strategy Agencies Posted online: September 19, 2008 Link - http://www.kashmirlive.com/story/Conference-of-Kashmiri-Pandits-to-chalk-future-strategy/363413.html *Jammu, September 19: *Prominent Kashmiri pandits will participate in a conference in Jammu in January to chalk out an action plan for the "struggle" against militants and separatists that has entered a "crucial" phase, Panun Kashmir has said. "This conference assumes significance in view of the success of the recent Amarnath agitation and endorsement of our stand for a separate homeland in Kashmir by the BJP," said Agnishankar, convenor of the outfit advocating the cause of the community that was forced to flee the Valley in the wake of militancy. "As nearly two decades come to a close since Pandits were forced to leave the Valley, the Panun Kashmir has decided to organise the third conference on January 19," he told reporters. Agnishakher said Pandits who migrated from the Valley before 1990 and lived in other parts of India, will be invited to the conference along with delegates from across the world to decide the future course of action in the wake of the "ambiguity on the part of the centre to rehabilitate pandits back in the Valley". "We have entered a crucial phase of our battle and from here on the community needs to be prepared against terrorists and separatists operating in Kashmir." Representatives of nearly 55 lakh Sarswat Brahmins in India, who trace their ancestry to Kashmir, will also participate in the conference, he added. Panun Kashmir is demanding a "homeland" for four lakh Kashmiri Pandits in the Valley with a union territory status. From mail at shivamvij.com Sat Sep 20 00:20:24 2008 From: mail at shivamvij.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Shivam_Vij?= =?UTF-8?Q?_=E0=A4=B6=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=AE?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E0=A5=8D_=E0=A4=B5=E0=A4=BF=E0=A4=9C=E0=A5=8D?=) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 00:20:24 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] FACTBOX-Indian Mujahideen Islamic militant group Message-ID: <9c06aab30809191150u4d0a57b2s8f86334691f881e0@mail.gmail.com> FACTBOX-Indian Mujahideen Islamic militant group Mon Sep 15, 2008 3:39pm IST http://in.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idINDEL35554220080915?pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0&sp=true Sept 15 (Reuters) - Five bombs exploded in crowded markets and streets in the heart of New Delhi at the weekend, killing at least 21 people and injuring nearly 100 more. The Indian Mujahideen Islamic militant group, which has claimed several major attacks in recent months, said it was responsible. Following are some facts about the group: ORIGINS * The Indian Mujahideen first emerged in the wake of bombings in the northern state of Uttar Pradesh in November 2007, sending an e-mail to media outlets just before some of the bombs exploded. * Indian police say the Indian Mujahideen is an offshoot of the banned Students' Islamic Movement of India (SIMI), but that local Muslims appear to have been given training and backing from militant groups in neighbouring Pakistan and Bangladesh. SIMI has been blamed by police for almost every major bomb attack in India, including explosions on commuter trains in Mumbai two years ago that killed 187 people. * The sophistication of the attacks appears to have caught police and intelligence networks by surprise. Some of the recent bombings have also borne the hallmarks of the Bangladeshi militant group Harkat-ul-Jihad al Islami. CLAIMS AND THREATS * Another e-mail was sent in the name of the Indian Mujahideen after bomb attacks in May that killed 63 people in the tourist city of Jaipur. The e-mail declared "open war against India" and included the serial number of one of the bicycles on which the bombs were left. That e-mail, signed by "Guru Al-Hindi", said India would face more attacks in tourist sites if it did not stop supporting the United States in the international arena. * Shortly before a series of bombs exploded in Ahmedabad on July 26, an e-mail in the name of the Indian Mujahideen was sent to local media in the capital of the western state of Gujarat warning that people would soon "feel the terror of death" in the name of Allah. Those blasts killed 45 people. It said the attacks were revenge for the Gujarat riots of 2002, when around 2,500 people, most of them Muslims, were killed by Hindu mobs. A later e-mail accused several state governments of harassing, imprisoning and torturing Muslims and threatened consequences if they did not stop. * The group sent out a new mail moments after the first blast in New Delhi, saying the explosions were to prove its capability to strike in the most secure of Indian cities. Besides warning of action against some Indian security officials, the e-mail spoke of what it said was bias in Indian media's coverage of news about Muslims. It warned of an attack on The Times of India newspaper for "psychologically fighting us". ARRESTS * Four weeks ago, Indian police arrested 10 people who they said were behind the Ahmedabad bombs. Police said one of those arrested, Abu Bashir, was the mastermind of the bombings and that all the suspects were active members of SIMI. (Editing by Krittivas Mukherjee) (c) Thomson Reuters 2008 All rights reserved From lalitambardar at hotmail.com Sat Sep 20 00:42:49 2008 From: lalitambardar at hotmail.com (Lalit Ambardar) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 19:12:49 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Today's "media circus" at Jamia In-Reply-To: <622636.12444.qm@web51412.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <622636.12444.qm@web51412.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Oh, go & watch CNN IBN. If that is what is bothering you. Prof Jillani -remember who was released on technical grounds in the parliament attack case ( cnn ibn introduced him as human rights activist...????...), & quite a few more spoke what would actually please you. And also your 'media circus' has cost the nation a young brave police man. You & your ilk wouldn't care though. Look there is a problem.If you guys have any concern for the poor Muslims masses- come up & face the reality.That young aeronautics engineer from Bangalory did not blow himself up in faraway Glasgow for any 'media circus'. Those Kalashnikov wielding Kashmiri pan Islamists did not just subject Kashmiri Hindu Pandits to ethnic cleansing in the valley for the media circus- there was only DD then. But yes,the green flags holding zealots did thump the earth beneath their feet ranting 'ragda' 'ragda' - 'India' in Srinagar recently while exhibiting rabid intolerance in opposing the land to their co state subjects for Amarnth pilgrimage use, for A Roy; Vir Sanghvi ; Ankleshwar Iyar; Prem Shankar Jha & associates. LA > Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 07:55:49 -0700> From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com> To: reader-list at sarai.net; sanjhi_virasat at yahoogroups.com> Subject: [Reader-list] Today's "media circus" at Jamia> > Friends> I have titled this message the “media circus”, although I am actually referring to this morning’s so-called encounter killing of two young people referred to as “terrorists” in L-18 Batla House, Jamia Nagar, by the Delhi police. I call it media circus because that’s what I think it really is, like many more such incidents. > > The incident happened in my neigbourhood, about 150 meters from my house. So I have the opportunity to see how things are turning up. I had gone out of the area for some work while the incident was taking place around 11 am, but found it impossible to reach back home 2 hours later, because the road for about 1 and a half kilometer (on both sides) was completely blocked, not by the police vehicles, but by the parked OB vans of the countless TV channels, some of which I never heard of before. Each of these vehicles had its generators on, and thick video cables jetting out of them for several meters to the other end where the cameraperson and the excited anchor were shouting how two terrorists have been killed in the fierce encounter. Most local people are surprised at the speed with which the TV crews arrived here and in such large number. Apparently, the Delhi Police had already told a section of the press they are going for a raid in Batla House, based> on the suspect Abu Bashir’s tip-off (I heard this from a anchor on Times NOW channel, although Police chief Dadwal is now denying there is any link with Abu Bashir), but they didn’t obviously say it was going to be an encounter. Its strange that the local residents got to know about the incident only after the two people had been killed – many in fact learnt it from the Aaj-tak channel. They claim they heard only the police firing and no gunshots from inside the flat, which the police claim have injured two of their constables.> > Most of you watching news TV in your homes may have already heard the cacophony of the TV anchors, each trying to be shriller than the other to prove that the local members of the Indian Mujahideen have been killed. They now seem to have memorized their lines on this issue well, since they have to repeat the same thing again and again. The graphics, animated logos, crawling tickers, and dramatic music/soundtrack to go with such coverage are always ready in the cans to be used at short notice. A cameraman running towards Batla House is nibbling at a burger while he holds on to a camera in his other hand. I saw two members of a TV crew outside the Holy Family Hospital (where the injured policemen have been taken) fiercely fight about which camera angle would look best for a sound byte. Everything looks as if planned and part of the usual business. The cops are happily allowing the media to climb any wall to get the best shot while they beat the local> rickshawpullers to leave the roads clean. The message has got across loud and clear: we told you – Batla House is a haven of terrorists.> > But many things sound fishy. I’ve been hearing a lot of angry conversations in the neighborhood: people are asking that if the police had only planned a simple raid (which they did 2 days ago in Zakir Nagar and Abul Fazl Enclave too), why did they have to bring battalions of police and encounter specialists with AK-56 and other deadly looking guns (that I myself saw) in advance. And why is the media called in even before the residents are told. Of course the fact the this happens in the month of Ramzan, on a Friday, and near a large mosque where people were going to gather in large numbers later for prayers, sounds just too predictable and clichéd for anyone’s imagination. Some locals claim that the police had been visiting this place (and that particular house) since last few days, and the so-called terrorists and their weapons were probably “planted” last night for this encounter. This claim would obviously find no takers in the presently> created euphoria (did you see any channel showing a sound byte to this affect?) I didn’t find a single local resident who is not fed up with this oft-repeated image of Jamia Nagar as harboring terrorists. But none of the channels I saw aired the public angst against their portrayal.> > To be honest, one shouldn’t deny that the Batla House area has some criminal and anti-social elements, just as Darya Ganj or Shahadra or Govindpuri would have. But most local residents believe that for Jamia to become a haven of such criminal elements, the local police and land-mafia are equally responsible. Jamia area is one of the rare localities of Delhi where the rule of law doesn’t apply in most spheres. The land mafia openly indulges in illegal construction; no rules of traffic apply here, the condition of civic amenities is abysmal. Illegal shops, factories (many with child labour) and businesses operate here actively with police connivance. The local politicians (MLA, councilors) are actually part of the problem rather than the solution. There is a full-scale illegal ISBT (bus stand) running in Batla House’s backyard to bring hundreds of migrants everyday from small towns of UP (you can see the police openly accepting bribe from its> operators any day). > > There is no question of sealing whatever the heck business you may run here, and most places stink with heaps of garbage everywhere. There are no RWAs or citizen’s initiatives to discuss the problems. It is truly a manufactured ghetto of Delhi – why don’t all these problems happen in Lajpat Nagar or Kalkaji? I am positive that the authorities are aware that criminals (or what they call terrorists) exist here. But they deliberately allow them to thrive here – never to be touched in the normal/peaceful times – keep them for the right time. It is as if Batla House is a laboratory or breeding ground where things are allowed to grow by providing all the required ingredients and safety. The fruits are plucked only when they are ripe (or required). So today, they simply came to gather the fruit they had sown, and made a big exhibition of it by calling the media. The local people, frightened that the next encounter may happen in their house, simply> squirm and hide in their personal ghettos.> > In all this, a big responsibility lies with the media, and I am yet to come across bold and honest reporters who are ready to go beyond the obvious and investigate the truth – not simply repeat what is told to them by the authorities or their channel bosses.> > Yousuf Saeed> September 19, 2008> > > > > > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Searching for weekend getaways? Try Live.com http://www.live.com/?scope=video&form=MICOAL From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Sat Sep 20 01:02:06 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 01:02:06 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised In-Reply-To: References: <6353c690809182021u4fb74001g9064d3fa5b8b2c6f@mail.gmail.com> <169ff67c0809190317o72d3ee9l3b502a73561d1372@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809190414g6ce8861eq441fa7d5d609bd32@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0809191232u65c82564lee7992d112a4cb6@mail.gmail.com> Dear Lalit, Yes he was released on "technical" grounds. The "technical" grounds that the law acquits people on, namely on the utter lack of any evidence linking him to the parliament attack. I know the fact that someone is innocent is a flimsy excuse in your book because it would be much better to hang him nonetheless and "salve the conscience of the nation", however you will be surprised to know that evidence of culpability is actually pretty central to the judicial process. Unfortunately, it is not simply enough for you to believe that Geelani was behind the attack, it has to be proved. It has not been proved. There is no evidence at all. I have said this before on this list, and I am saying it again - terror, whether by agents acting against the state and terror by the state are mirrors of each other. Monstrous shadows that seemingly confront each other in a relationship of tense alterity. And who is to say which is which and who is whom? In the times in which we live we will be asked again and again to suspend our sense of justice, of ethical responsibility in the name of national security, of fighting terror. To justify everything - fake encounters, arrest without warrants, torture, detention on suspicion, rape - so that we may all be safe. Safe from what? We are producing the ghosts that haunt us. best Aarti On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 6:45 PM, Lalit Ambardar wrote: > By the way, this 'guy' was released on 'technical grounds' only. Even one > of that 'celebrity' senior most criminal lawyers could not get him relieved > of this tag. And yet, he continues with his diatribe against India. > > And for these 'mobile citizens' they appear to be a confused lot. Here, > they espouse the cause of the pan Islamism driven secessionism in Kashmir & > lo, there they raise an issue on the relationship between the 'land' & 'the > nation'. They have no quarrel with those who thump the 'very land' in > kashmir with their heals ranting 'ragda'....'ragda' implying 'crush India'. > How ironic . Those who do not want to be part of this nation are welcome to > opt for the 'land of the pure' & it quite fits in to the mobile citizens' > theory- you could still love the land (even if one ignores that > stupid 'ragda'....'ragda' thumping....???... ) yet need not posses it. > Regards all > LA > p s : Opposite of 'nation state' can only be 'anarchy' & 'anarchy' can > only lead to 'mayhem' that is so visible in > Kashmir since 1989-90. > > ------------------------------ > > > Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 16:45:02 +0500 > > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > To: aarti.sethi at gmail.com > > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised > > > > Aarti, > > > > we seem to have carried forward of the concept of freedom and rights too > far without realising to be free, we have some responsibility also to the > nation and society that has bestowed upon us the freedom and rights. in fact > the rights have the other side of the coin, that is duties. Without duties > to the society, exercising only rights is like license to behave as any > individual wants, a license to tamper the rights of others in society, it is > license to be irrelevant in a society which has given rights to individuals > to be free. > > > > A Roy, after winning a booker prize and some dollars can not be > exercising her rights without the responsibilty to the society in which she > lives. If she declares herself as walking and talking republic then she has > every right to say so, but her safety then, solely on her, not on the > republic of India as she misbehaves in the society that she lives in > > > > A Geelani when he invokes his right of feee expression, and as activist > of human rights, he has to be aware of all humans in society when he > supports the terror in jamia nagar. When he stores the ground floor plan of > parliament, he has to be aware that, he is neither an architect nor a civil > engineer and his act can help his terrorist friends. A court may acquit him > of the charges, but citizens look at him with certain apprehension, because > what business he has not to inform of the terror activities that go on in > his neighbourhood. ? Every citizen is police without uniform for the > society, every police is citizen with uniform. When ghettos of muslims > sheltor, defend the terror accused, the citizens of the nation feel sorry > for ntire community and look with disdain. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Aarti Sethi > > Date: Friday, September 19, 2008 4:45 pm > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised > > To: Nazneen Anand Shamsi , sarai list < > reader-list at sarai.net> > > > > > Dear Nazneen, > > > > > > > > > I have no quarrel with love for land at all. And read my post > > > again. I used > > > a specific phrase, I said, 'territorial lust for land'. Can you > > > love land > > > without possessing it? That is the question. > > > > > > How exactly do you build a relationship with land with which you > > > have no > > > personal history of settlement or usage? Now obviously this is > > > both an > > > abstract and a concrete question. I have never been to Kashmir, > > > does this > > > mean I cannot have any relationship to it? Of course not! The > > > question is > > > what kind of relationship? When I was one year old my father went > > > on a > > > voyage to Antarctica. One of my most favourite memories of > > > childhood is > > > seeing the slides he brought back of the incredible snowscapes and ice > > > sheets, and a rock which lay in a corner of our house for many years. > > > Apparently it was part of a meteor which smashed into the earth > > > some million > > > years ago. Antarctica is part of no country. Its land is part of > > > the common > > > heritage of humanity, for all to build relationships with. As far > > > as I am > > > concerned this is the only productive, ethical and creative way to > > > think of > > > land. > > > > > > The trouble is being an Indian citizen gives me fictional > > > 'ownership' over > > > the entire territory of India. As if I have some special > > > entitlement to the > > > square miles that are part of the map. But which land, whose land > > > and whose > > > love? Currently there are struggles going on in this country - in > > > singur, in > > > nandigram, in niyamgiri, to name only three sites - where people > > > are asking > > > this question. Communities it seems have no right to their own > > > land in the > > > name of "development". And this is fine by your logic is it not? > > > Because the > > > development of India means that everyone has an entitlement. All > > > land is the > > > property of the state. When did this come to pass? Can we ask these > > > questions? Or immediately "pills" must be taken to stamp out these > > > viruses?Maybe your love for India entitles you to such a claim, I > > > do not feel this > > > entitlement. And in my opinion this sort of entitlement is where > > > violence is > > > born. Can you see the quagmire we are in when we begin to collapse > > > lovefor/of land and territorial entitlement? They are not the same > > > thing. > > > What does cheering for the Indian cricket team have to do with the > > > area per > > > square miles of India? Believe me, I am not being facetious at > > > all. The only > > > reason this sounds idiotic is because we take for granted the > > > logic of the > > > modern nation state which consists of a sovereign entity for a > > > territorialunit, with a standing army to defend this territory. > > > This is the first > > > lesson in every graduate political science lecture. And you are > > > right, the > > > nation state is a fragile concept. So maybe we need to ask > > > ourselves whether > > > this is not causing more trouble than it is worth... > > > > > > Regarding archives and fiction, this is a longer discussion and > > > tangentialto the point I was making. Of course we may discuss it > > > if you wish. But just > > > to clarify what I was saying, I can claim the heritage of the > > > whole world as > > > my own. There is an old humanist saying "the world is my home" and > > > i think > > > there is something of tremendous value here. But there are several > > > ways in > > > which history and heritage can be claimed. One way seems to be > > > logic of > > > subsuming everything, all forms of life and love and affection > > > into the > > > rubric of the nation and to stamp out violently any persons or > > > forms of life > > > which fall out of this. I am afraid this is too violent and boring > > > for me. > > > > > > regards > > > Aarti > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 3:47 PM, Nazneen Anand Shamsi < > > > nazoshmasi at googlemail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Dear Aarti, > > > > > > > > Please explain how many years constitute a civilization? For > > > that matter, > > > > please elucidate the relationship between temporal continuity > > > and a concept, > > > > if any? Why should 'pride in being Indian' exclude love for > > > land? As far as > > > > history books are concerned, I would ask, who is to decide which > > > fiction of > > > > the archives is valid? Nation state is a fragile concept, and > > > whats wrong > > > > in subduing those who make it more vulnerable? To not to do so > > > is I think > > > > not allow one to take a pill if one is afflicted by a minor > > > virus and hope > > > > that the body will cope on its own...it is ridiculous isn't it? > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > Nazo > > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 9:39 AM, Aarti Sethi > > > wrote:> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > The signatories assert that "Kashmir is an inalienable > > > element of > > > >> India's > > > >> > civilisational identity and symbolises the fundamental > > > principles on > > > >> which > > > >> > the modern Indian state has been built." Terming national > > > will as a > > > >> > critical > > > >> > component of state power, they felt that "devious > > > adversaries" have > > > >> > resorted > > > >> > to psychological warfare in order to break the national will. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> What is India's 'civilizational identity'? Does 60 years > > > constitute a > > > >> 'civilization'? The point is, that to even raise this question is > > > >> "sedition". As if those who ask this question are somehow naive > > > deluded>> juvile people. Does 'pride in being Indian', whatever > > > that is, have to be > > > >> coupled with a territorial lust for land? I don't think so. Our > > > >> imaginations > > > >> and affections surely encompass more than the nation. And in > > > fact they do, > > > >> that is my point. Read any history book taught in school. We > > > are so > > > >> willing > > > >> so claim 2,000 years of history as 'Indian history', but that > > > history>> becomes 'Indian history' only 60 years ago. The march of > > > history does not > > > >> cut some straight and true swath from Ashoka to Nehru, as if > > > 2,000 years > > > >> of > > > >> history is the long unfolding of the story of the 'Indian > > > nation'. Why is > > > >> this so scary to concieve is what I don't understand. > > > >> > > > >> Nations are not god-given entities. They are historically > > > produced units > > > >> of > > > >> social organisation. Which is not to say they are of no value > > > or that they > > > >> have never played a progressive role. Or that we must have no > > > investment>> in > > > >> them. But its alright to question and query the nation. There > > > is nothing > > > >> divine about it. Its not 'immoral'. People who are asking these > > > questions>> are not 'bad people', 'enemies of India'. > > > >> People who are asking today questions about Kashmir's future > > > and its > > > >> relationship with India are asking us to think deeply and hard > > > about how > > > >> India defines her/its identity. This is a good question, it > > > would help us > > > >> all to spend some time on it. It is possible to think > > > creatively at this > > > >> moment about the very many ways in which Kashmir can relate to > > > India.>> There > > > >> has been some discussion of those ways on this list itself. > > > Various kinds > > > >> of > > > >> autonomy arrangements, of porous borders, many things can be > > > thought>> through. But to deign all such conversations as > > > "seditious" is no way to > > > >> go > > > >> anywhere. > > > >> > > > >> best > > > >> A > > > >> _________________________________________ > > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > >> List archive: > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > list > > > List archive: > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > ------------------------------ > Hottest news and in-depth analysis that goes beyond the headlines. Only on > MSN News Check it out! > From shuddha at sarai.net Sat Sep 20 01:39:18 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 01:39:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised In-Reply-To: References: <6353c690809182021u4fb74001g9064d3fa5b8b2c6f@mail.gmail.com> <"48c 2916d0809190139o2b07618fi3f12c82ec333f4d8"@mail.gmail.com> <169ff67c0809190317o72d3ee9l3b502a73561d1372@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809190414g6ce8861eq441fa7d5d609bd32@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Radhika, I respectfully beg to disagree with you. I think that people like A Roy (and there are many like her, in this country, and in every country in the world) who choose to say what they do, not because they are being 'irresponsible' but because they are being 'responsible' to the society that they live in by saying the kind of things that allow us to reflect on what our societies are turning into, and the manner in which the states that govern us operate. I respect such people no matter where they live. I respect for instance, Akbar Ganji, who has been repeatedly persecuted in the Islamic Republic of Iran, for what are considered to be his 'anti national' views in Iran, because he has courageously highlighted the gross and abusive character of the state apparatus that runs the Islamic Republic. see - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akbar_Ganji I respect Israeli dissidents like Mordechai Vanunu (who acted as a whistleblower about Israel's nuclear arsenal, and faced long and harsh imprisonment) and the 19 year old Isreali dissident soldier Avi Bieber who refused to participate in his governments violence against the people of occupied Palestine. see - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4631141.stm I respect the thousands of ordinary American men, women, pensioners, soldiers, veterans, schoolteachers, priests and intellectuals who have risked been called 'terrorist sympathizers' in the United States for speaking against the 'war on terror' in the United States of America. I respect the courageous Russian Journalist Anna Politovskaya who was killed for the way in which she stood up to the criminal Putin regime. see - http://www.slate.com/id/2151209/ I respect the Chinese dissidents who have extended solidarity to their Tibetan brothers and sisters. (whom I and Sonia Jabbar have written about on this list) All these people, in each of these countries have been called 'seditionists', 'intellectual terrorists', 'psycho-warriors', 'traitors', 'troublmakers', 'spies' and worse. None of these people are heroes, none of them set out to be heroes, I would guess that each one of them would have hated, or hates, the label of 'martyr'. They do not see themselves as extraordinary in any way. They are just standing up for the common decency that becomes necessary when states turn into monsters. Many of us on this list, by participating in the discussions that we do participate in, do no different. We are not being special. We are just being responsible to ourselves, our consciences, our friends, our attachments and our convictions. This means being responsible to the society in which we live. To be silent, or to be complicit in a repressive state, would be to forget and ignore our 'duties' and our 'responsibilities'. So, I would urge you to reconsider your loose and somewhat cavalier usage of terms such as 'responsibility', 'rights' and 'duties'. There is another thing in your post that caught my attention. You say - "A Geelani when he invokes his right of feee expression, and as activist of human rights, he has to be aware of all humans in society when he supports the terror in jamia nagar. When he stores the ground floor plan of parliament, he has to be aware that, he is neither an architect nor a civil engineer and his act can help his terrorist friends." I find this statement surprising, and actually, (I regret to say it) irresponsible. Where has Geelani supported the 'terror in Jamia Nagar'? Where have you come across such a statement? There is a report in today's DNA that makes a reference to S.A.R Geelani in a report on the shootout in Jamia Nagar. "Few Takers for Police Version on Delhi Shootout" http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1191619 It says - "SAR Geelani, the Delhi University lecturer who was acquitted in the Deceember 2001 parliament attack, demanded a judicial probe into the shootout and said: "People have been harassed in the area for a long time. It is not something new. Whenever something happens, this area is the first target being a Muslim one." " Where, in this statement, which is echoed by many other residents of the area, (which the newspaper duly reports) do you read. support for 'terrorists' ? Or are we to assume that according to you protesting against the harrassment of your neighbours is now to be understood as 'support for terrorism'? I read everything you write with great care, because, although I disagree with you on most things, I do see that you write from conviction. I am surprised that you should say something so unsubstantiated and unsubstantiable, Surely, you, with your claims to journalistic ethics, need not stoop so low. Never, in the past seven years, has there ever been any mention of Geelani ( I am assuming you are referring to Mr. S.A.R. Geelani, since you are referring indirectly to the so called 'Parliament Attack' case) having possession of the ' floor plan of parliament'. It does not figure in even the wildest fantasies of the police and the prosecution case with regard to '13 December'. And I say this because I have studied the court records and the charge sheets with some care. So either you are privy to something that not even the special cell of the Delhi police knew nothing about, or, you are fantasizing. If that is the case, perhaps you might consider offering this list a graceful apology, warm regards, Shuddha When the state apparatus becomes a bloated monster of the kind > > A Roy, after winning a booker prize and some dollars can not be > exercising her rights without the responsibilty to the society in > which she lives. If she declares herself as walking and talking > republic then she has every right to say so, but her safety then, > solely on her, not on the republic of India as she misbehaves in > the society that she lives in > > A Geelani when he invokes his right of feee expression, and as > activist of human rights, he has to be aware of all humans in > society when he supports the terror in jamia nagar. When he stores > the ground floor plan of parliament, he has to be aware that, he is > neither an architect nor a civil engineer and his act can help his > terrorist friends. A court may acquit him of the charges, but > citizens look at him with certain apprehension, because what > business he has not to inform of the terror activities that go on > in his neighbourhood. ? Every citizen is police without uniform for > the society, every police is citizen with uniform. When ghettos of > muslims sheltor, defend the terror accused, the citizens of the > nation feel sorry for ntire community and look with disdain. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Aarti Sethi > Date: Friday, September 19, 2008 4:45 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised > To: Nazneen Anand Shamsi , sarai list > > >> Dear Nazneen, >> >> >> I have no quarrel with love for land at all. And read my post >> again. I used >> a specific phrase, I said, 'territorial lust for land'. Can you >> love land >> without possessing it? That is the question. >> >> How exactly do you build a relationship with land with which you >> have no >> personal history of settlement or usage? Now obviously this is >> both an >> abstract and a concrete question. I have never been to Kashmir, >> does this >> mean I cannot have any relationship to it? Of course not! The >> question is >> what kind of relationship? When I was one year old my father went >> on a >> voyage to Antarctica. One of my most favourite memories of >> childhood is >> seeing the slides he brought back of the incredible snowscapes and >> ice >> sheets, and a rock which lay in a corner of our house for many years. >> Apparently it was part of a meteor which smashed into the earth >> some million >> years ago. Antarctica is part of no country. Its land is part of >> the common >> heritage of humanity, for all to build relationships with. As far >> as I am >> concerned this is the only productive, ethical and creative way to >> think of >> land. >> >> The trouble is being an Indian citizen gives me fictional >> 'ownership' over >> the entire territory of India. As if I have some special >> entitlement to the >> square miles that are part of the map. But which land, whose land >> and whose >> love? Currently there are struggles going on in this country - in >> singur, in >> nandigram, in niyamgiri, to name only three sites - where people >> are asking >> this question. Communities it seems have no right to their own >> land in the >> name of "development". And this is fine by your logic is it not? >> Because the >> development of India means that everyone has an entitlement. All >> land is the >> property of the state. When did this come to pass? Can we ask these >> questions? Or immediately "pills" must be taken to stamp out these >> viruses?Maybe your love for India entitles you to such a claim, I >> do not feel this >> entitlement. And in my opinion this sort of entitlement is where >> violence is >> born. Can you see the quagmire we are in when we begin to collapse >> lovefor/of land and territorial entitlement? They are not the same >> thing. >> What does cheering for the Indian cricket team have to do with the >> area per >> square miles of India? Believe me, I am not being facetious at >> all. The only >> reason this sounds idiotic is because we take for granted the >> logic of the >> modern nation state which consists of a sovereign entity for a >> territorialunit, with a standing army to defend this territory. >> This is the first >> lesson in every graduate political science lecture. And you are >> right, the >> nation state is a fragile concept. So maybe we need to ask >> ourselves whether >> this is not causing more trouble than it is worth... >> >> Regarding archives and fiction, this is a longer discussion and >> tangentialto the point I was making. Of course we may discuss it >> if you wish. But just >> to clarify what I was saying, I can claim the heritage of the >> whole world as >> my own. There is an old humanist saying "the world is my home" and >> i think >> there is something of tremendous value here. But there are several >> ways in >> which history and heritage can be claimed. One way seems to be >> logic of >> subsuming everything, all forms of life and love and affection >> into the >> rubric of the nation and to stamp out violently any persons or >> forms of life >> which fall out of this. I am afraid this is too violent and boring >> for me. >> >> regards >> Aarti >> >> On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 3:47 PM, Nazneen Anand Shamsi < >> nazoshmasi at googlemail.com> wrote: >> >>> Dear Aarti, >>> >>> Please explain how many years constitute a civilization? For >> that matter, >>> please elucidate the relationship between temporal continuity >> and a concept, >>> if any? Why should 'pride in being Indian' exclude love for >> land? As far as >>> history books are concerned, I would ask, who is to decide which >> fiction of >>> the archives is valid? Nation state is a fragile concept, and >> whats wrong >>> in subduing those who make it more vulnerable? To not to do so >> is I think >>> not allow one to take a pill if one is afflicted by a minor >> virus and hope >>> that the body will cope on its own...it is ridiculous isn't it? >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Nazo >>> >>> On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 9:39 AM, Aarti Sethi >> wrote:> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The signatories assert that "Kashmir is an inalienable >> element of >>>> India's >>>>> civilisational identity and symbolises the fundamental >> principles on >>>> which >>>>> the modern Indian state has been built." Terming national >> will as a >>>>> critical >>>>> component of state power, they felt that "devious >> adversaries" have >>>>> resorted >>>>> to psychological warfare in order to break the national will. >>>> >>>> >>>> What is India's 'civilizational identity'? Does 60 years >> constitute a >>>> 'civilization'? The point is, that to even raise this question is >>>> "sedition". As if those who ask this question are somehow naive >> deluded>> juvile people. Does 'pride in being Indian', whatever >> that is, have to be >>>> coupled with a territorial lust for land? I don't think so. Our >>>> imaginations >>>> and affections surely encompass more than the nation. And in >> fact they do, >>>> that is my point. Read any history book taught in school. We >> are so >>>> willing >>>> so claim 2,000 years of history as 'Indian history', but that >> history>> becomes 'Indian history' only 60 years ago. The march of >> history does not >>>> cut some straight and true swath from Ashoka to Nehru, as if >> 2,000 years >>>> of >>>> history is the long unfolding of the story of the 'Indian >> nation'. Why is >>>> this so scary to concieve is what I don't understand. >>>> >>>> Nations are not god-given entities. They are historically >> produced units >>>> of >>>> social organisation. Which is not to say they are of no value >> or that they >>>> have never played a progressive role. Or that we must have no >> investment>> in >>>> them. But its alright to question and query the nation. There >> is nothing >>>> divine about it. Its not 'immoral'. People who are asking these >> questions>> are not 'bad people', 'enemies of India'. >>>> People who are asking today questions about Kashmir's future >> and its >>>> relationship with India are asking us to think deeply and hard >> about how >>>> India defines her/its identity. This is a good question, it >> would help us >>>> all to spend some time on it. It is possible to think >> creatively at this >>>> moment about the very many ways in which Kashmir can relate to >> India.>> There >>>> has been some discussion of those ways on this list itself. >> Various kinds >>>> of >>>> autonomy arrangements, of porous borders, many things can be >> thought>> through. But to deign all such conversations as >> "seditious" is no way to >>>> go >>>> anywhere. >>>> >>>> best >>>> A >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: >>>> >>> >>> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >> list >> List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From shuddha at sarai.net Sat Sep 20 01:53:17 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 01:53:17 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The updated list of killings by the firing of armedforces In-Reply-To: References: <921672.85527.qm@web31813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <600E7EFF-4294-4CCA-9E12-7F2B466F02A8@sarai.net> Dear Radhika, Thank you for your observations on Khurram's posting. Well, in this case some "protesters who claim to be peaceful, holding sticks, guns and resort to arson and riot" were "garlanded." I am referring to the ones in Jammu. You will recall, that not a single policeman or soldier or paramilitary personnel were killed in Kashmir. But two policemen did die in Jammu, and some truck drivers assaulted by the 'peaceful' protestors in Jammu also succmbed, I suppose in your opinion, "peacefully" from their injuries. Gujjar huts were burnt in acts of "peaceful" arson. The crowds in Kashmir who were fired upon, 50 of whom were killed at the last count, did not bear weapons. We all saw the television pictures. They threw stones, like angry crowds do everywhere in the world. But they did not kill policemen. The government did not garland these protestors, it clamped indefinite curfews and shot at them to kill. One the other hand it did garland the protestors on the other side of the Banihal pass. it held some leaders under the Public Safety Act, and then released them. It counducted 'negotiations' with the leaders of the peaceful protests in Jammu and garlanded them with a sham 'accord'. All these prove that if you happen to belong to the right place, sport the right kind of name, then even if your 'peaceful' protest turns occasionally violent, you can still be 'garlanded' as you (in this case) rightly point out. After all, we live in the country whose government called its nuclear weapons tests in 1974, 'peaceful implosions'. In the novel, '1984' George Orwell, whom I have referred to in an earlier posting, wrote about how in the language perfected by fictional regime that he was decribing, (newspeak) 'PEACE' was 'WAR'. are you not indulging in a little modest 'newspeak' Radhika, surely, you can do better than that? warm regards Shuddha On 18-Sep-08, at 1:46 PM, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: Khurram, your post makes me wonder, whether the protesters who claim to be peaceful, holding sticks, guns and resort to arson and riot should be garlanded. ? From shuddha at sarai.net Sat Sep 20 02:01:23 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 02:01:23 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Today's "media circus" at Jamia In-Reply-To: <622636.12444.qm@web51412.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <622636.12444.qm@web51412.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <77CF3B10-11CF-4CCE-A080-CC870E7044D1@sarai.net> Dear Yousuf, Many thanks for this post and for sharing your thoughts on the 'media circus'. Watching the 'media circus' unfold on television, I was appalled at the manner in which the 'spectacle' was priming itself up through the day. A channel called 'News 24' for instance, was repeatedly informing us that it 'was the first to transmit pictures of the encounter' etc, as if it had just won India yet another sharp- shooting gold medal in the Olympics. A thought that did strike me was, "'how much more disrespectful can the blood-lust of this spectacle of a hunt, get to all those who died in today's 'Encounter' , be they policemen on duty, or 'alleged' terrorists ?" I think we need to give some serious thought to the fact that these days police encounters are actually an extended part of 'Reality TV' (which in any case, the entire genre should be more appropriately called 'Surreality TV'). That seem scripted well in advance. How else (as you so cogently point out) can one explain the sudden appearance of large OB vans, with heavy duty equipment, battling heavy rush hour traffic, in a congested area like Jamia Nagar, just at the 'nick of time'? The TV commentators, throughout the day, referred to what their 'sources' in the Special Cell, or in the Delhi Police, told them. I wondered to what degree the entire 'Operation' was co-scripted, between these 'sources' and the newsrooms of Television channels. There seems something almost monotonously repetitive in these situations. A strange feeling of Deja-Vu. Something tells me we have seen this before. Or is it just that I have watched way too much 'reality' ? regards Shuddha On 19-Sep-08, at 8:25 PM, Yousuf wrote: > Friends > I have titled this message the “media circus”, although I am > actually referring to this morning’s so-called encounter killing of > two young people referred to as “terrorists” in L-18 Batla House, > Jamia Nagar, by the Delhi police. I call it media circus because > that’s what I think it really is, like many more such incidents. > > The incident happened in my neigbourhood, about 150 meters from my > house. So I have the opportunity to see how things are turning up. > I had gone out of the area for some work while the incident was > taking place around 11 am, but found it impossible to reach back > home 2 hours later, because the road for about 1 and a half > kilometer (on both sides) was completely blocked, not by the police > vehicles, but by the parked OB vans of the countless TV channels, > some of which I never heard of before. Each of these vehicles had > its generators on, and thick video cables jetting out of them for > several meters to the other end where the cameraperson and the > excited anchor were shouting how two terrorists have been killed in > the fierce encounter. Most local people are surprised at the speed > with which the TV crews arrived here and in such large number. > Apparently, the Delhi Police had already told a section of the > press they are going for a raid in Batla House, based > on the suspect Abu Bashir’s tip-off (I heard this from a anchor on > Times NOW channel, although Police chief Dadwal is now denying > there is any link with Abu Bashir), but they didn’t obviously say > it was going to be an encounter. Its strange that the local > residents got to know about the incident only after the two people > had been killed – many in fact learnt it from the Aaj-tak channel. > They claim they heard only the police firing and no gunshots from > inside the flat, which the police claim have injured two of their > constables. > > Most of you watching news TV in your homes may have already heard > the cacophony of the TV anchors, each trying to be shriller than > the other to prove that the local members of the Indian Mujahideen > have been killed. They now seem to have memorized their lines on > this issue well, since they have to repeat the same thing again and > again. The graphics, animated logos, crawling tickers, and dramatic > music/soundtrack to go with such coverage are always ready in the > cans to be used at short notice. A cameraman running towards Batla > House is nibbling at a burger while he holds on to a camera in his > other hand. I saw two members of a TV crew outside the Holy Family > Hospital (where the injured policemen have been taken) fiercely > fight about which camera angle would look best for a sound byte. > Everything looks as if planned and part of the usual business. The > cops are happily allowing the media to climb any wall to get the > best shot while they beat the local > rickshawpullers to leave the roads clean. The message has got > across loud and clear: we told you – Batla House is a haven of > terrorists. > > But many things sound fishy. I’ve been hearing a lot of angry > conversations in the neighborhood: people are asking that if the > police had only planned a simple raid (which they did 2 days ago in > Zakir Nagar and Abul Fazl Enclave too), why did they have to bring > battalions of police and encounter specialists with AK-56 and other > deadly looking guns (that I myself saw) in advance. And why is the > media called in even before the residents are told. Of course the > fact the this happens in the month of Ramzan, on a Friday, and near > a large mosque where people were going to gather in large numbers > later for prayers, sounds just too predictable and clichéd for > anyone’s imagination. Some locals claim that the police had been > visiting this place (and that particular house) since last few > days, and the so-called terrorists and their weapons were probably > “planted” last night for this encounter. This claim would obviously > find no takers in the presently > created euphoria (did you see any channel showing a sound byte to > this affect?) I didn’t find a single local resident who is not fed > up with this oft-repeated image of Jamia Nagar as harboring > terrorists. But none of the channels I saw aired the public angst > against their portrayal. > > To be honest, one shouldn’t deny that the Batla House area has some > criminal and anti-social elements, just as Darya Ganj or Shahadra > or Govindpuri would have. But most local residents believe that for > Jamia to become a haven of such criminal elements, the local police > and land-mafia are equally responsible. Jamia area is one of the > rare localities of Delhi where the rule of law doesn’t apply in > most spheres. The land mafia openly indulges in illegal > construction; no rules of traffic apply here, the condition of > civic amenities is abysmal. Illegal shops, factories (many with > child labour) and businesses operate here actively with police > connivance. The local politicians (MLA, councilors) are actually > part of the problem rather than the solution. There is a full-scale > illegal ISBT (bus stand) running in Batla House’s backyard to bring > hundreds of migrants everyday from small towns of UP (you can see > the police openly accepting bribe from its > operators any day). > > There is no question of sealing whatever the heck business you may > run here, and most places stink with heaps of garbage everywhere. > There are no RWAs or citizen’s initiatives to discuss the problems. > It is truly a manufactured ghetto of Delhi – why don’t all these > problems happen in Lajpat Nagar or Kalkaji? I am positive that the > authorities are aware that criminals (or what they call terrorists) > exist here. But they deliberately allow them to thrive here – never > to be touched in the normal/peaceful times – keep them for the > right time. It is as if Batla House is a laboratory or breeding > ground where things are allowed to grow by providing all the > required ingredients and safety. The fruits are plucked only when > they are ripe (or required). So today, they simply came to gather > the fruit they had sown, and made a big exhibition of it by calling > the media. The local people, frightened that the next encounter may > happen in their house, simply > squirm and hide in their personal ghettos. > > In all this, a big responsibility lies with the media, and I am yet > to come across bold and honest reporters who are ready to go beyond > the obvious and investigate the truth – not simply repeat what is > told to them by the authorities or their channel bosses. > > Yousuf Saeed > September 19, 2008 > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Sat Sep 20 02:14:50 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 02:14:50 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] chechenya and kashmir Message-ID: <48c2916d0809191344l1df6b8a3m86a99598968a35e3@mail.gmail.com> Dear All, Apropos Shuddha's last post in which he mentions Anna Politskaya, the Russian journalist who was murdered in her flat for daring to write about the acts committed by Russian military in "cleaning" operations in Chechnya. I am posting an article by her below. In the day to come we will be faced with choices, either to ally ourselves with things done in our names, or to say that we will not. At such times it would be well to remember, and not shirk from realising, exactly what happens to bodies and minds when terror is unleashed. We are aware that the army routinely picks up young boys for "questioning" in Kashmir. We are aware that many of these boys never come back, and that those who do, return broken in mind and body. We are aware that hospitals in kashmir are overwflowing with people ill with the violence done unto them. We know that this time too a pregnant woman was beaten by the CRPF. So I am qouting from her, because I think what she had to say for chechnya is worth remembering for us in India: "Do you still think you should be supporting this war because of some aim that's being pursued and so things wouldn't get worse? Things cannot get worse. We have lost all sense of the morality and restraint we were taught in less tumultuous times, and something more vile and loathesome than we could ever imagine has erupted from the murkiest depths of our souls. " Let us not lose sense of our morality, our restraint. Let us not lose sight of basic things like physicality and bodies and pain. regards A http://www.tjetjenien.dk/baggrund/politkovskaya.html Children of Chechen "Spetzoperations" by Anna Politkovskaya Novaya Gazeta May 19 2002 Do you still think you should be supporting the war in Chechnya because of some aim that's being pursued, so things wouldn't get worse? We have reached a stage in Russia now, where every schoolchild knows that Chechnya is being "cleaned", and adults no longer bother with the inverted commas. "Zachistka" in this sense entails thoroughly sorting out someone or something and, on the whole, we prefer not to enquire too closely into who or what. For this meaning of this old word we have the war in Chechnya to thank, and more particularly the high-ranking military brass who routinely update us on television with the latest news from Russia's Chechen ghetto, popularly known as the "Zone of Anti- Terrorist Operations". It is March 2002 and the thirtieth month of the second Chechen war. "Zachistka", if we are to believe the military, is precisely the aim of the current "special measures". From last November until now, lunatic waves of special measures have been sweeping over Chechnya: Shali, Kurchaloy, Tsotsan-Yurt, Bachi-Yurt, Urus-Martan, Grozny; again Shali, again Kurchaloy; Argun again and again; Chiri-Yurt. Towns and villages are besieged for days; women wail; families try desperately to evacuate their adolescent sons - where to doesn't matter providing it's a long way from Chechnya; village elders stage protest demonstrations. Finally, we are regaled with general Moltenskoy himself, our supposed commander-in-chief of the 'Front Against Terrorism', festooned with medals and ribbons, there on the television screen, pumping adrenalin, larger than life; and invariably against a background of corpses and "cleaned" villages. The general reports some recently achieved "significant success". But there's still no Khattab with Basayev.... And you know full well that something isn't right, because you went to school when you were little and can do enough mental arithmetic to add up the numbers of enemy fighters he claims to have caught over the past winter. It amounts to a whole regiment of them. Just the same as in last year's warfare season. So, how many fighters are still there? What exactly does "zachistka" involve? What is the truth, and who is telling it? What have these special measures actually turned into? What is their aim? Last, and most important, what are their results? *His eyes looked so calm* - I was relieved when they took us out to be shot. - Relieved? What about your parents? Didn't you think about them then, and how sad they would be? Mahomed Idigov, recently taken out to be shot, is 16. He is a pupil in the tenth grade of School No 2 in the town of Starye Atagi, Grozny region. He has a favourite pair of jeans, a much loved tape recorder, and a stack of pop music cassettes which he enjoys listening to. He's a typical 16-year-old. The only disturbing thing about him is his eyes, which have the level steadiness of an adult's. They don't go with his teenager's skin problems and adolescent gawkiness. There something wrong, too, in the measured way Mahomed relates the story of what was done to him. In the course of "zachistka" he was subjected to the same electric torture as the grown men. Having themselves been tortured, these men pleaded with Russian officers not to torture the boy but to torture them again in his place. - No way, was the reply. - We get good counter-terrorist information out of schoolboys. When I ask about his parents, Mahomed pauses for a time. His eyebrows finally arch childishly as he tries not to cry. He manages, and replies clearly and directly, as you can when something's over, - Other people get killed too. Indeed. Why should Mohamed have it easier than other people. Everybody is in the same situation. The "zachistka" of Starye Atagi from 28 January to 5 February was the second time the town had been "cleaned" in 2002, and the twentieth time since the beginning of the second Chechen war. It is subjected to "special measures" nearly every month. The official explanation is plausible: with a population of around 15,000, Starye Atagi is one of the largest towns in Chechnya. It is 20 kilometres from Grozny and ten from the so-called "Wolf's Gate", as Russian soldiers call the entrance to the Argun Gorge. It is considered a trouble spot full of terrorist wahhabites and their sympathisers. But what has this to do with Mahomed? On the morning of 1st of February, when the twentieth "zachistka" was at its most ferocious, masked men seized the boy from his home in Nagornaya Street, threw him like a log into a military truck and took him to a "filtration point", where he was tortured. - It was very cold that day. First we were "put against the wall" for several hours, which means you stand with your hands up and your legs apart, facing the wall. If you try to lower your arms you get beaten immediately. Any soldier who walks past is likely to hit you. They unbuttoned my jacket, pulled up my sweater and cut it into strips with a knife, like a clown's jacket. - Why? - Just to make me feel the cold more. They saw I was shivering. I can't bear it. Mahomed is too dispassionate. I can't bear the calm, thoughtful look on his face as he relates his appalling story. I wish this child would at least cry and give me something to do. I could comfort him then. - Did they hit you a lot? - All the time. On the kidneys. Then they put me on the ground and dragged me through the mud by the neck. - What for? Did you know why they were doing it? - Just because. For fun. - But were they trying to get something out of you? - For a whole day there was nothing. They just hurt me. They took me to interrogation in the evening. They interrogated three of us. They showed me a list and said, "Which of these people are fighters? Where are they treated for injuries? Who is the doctor? Whose house do they sleep at? Which of your neighbours is feeding them?" I answered, "I don't know". - And what did they say? - They said, "Do you need some help?" And they tortured me with electric current. That's what they meant by helping. They connected the wires and turned a handle, like on a telephone. The more they turned it, the stronger the current that passed through me. They asked me where my older brother, "the wahhabite", was as well. - And is he a wahhabite? - No, of course not. - What did you say? - I didn't say anything. - And what did they do? - They passed the current through me again. *The war has been lost* - Did it hurt? Mahomed's head on his thin neck slumps down below his shoulders, into his angular knees. He does not want to answer, but it is an answer I need. - It hurt a lot then? - Yes, a lot. - Is that why you were relieved when they took you out to be shot? Mahomed is shaking as if he has a high fever. Behind him is an array of bottles with solutions for medicine droppers, syringes, cotton wool, tubes. - Whose is this stuff? It's for me. They damaged my kidneys and lungs. There are a lot of people in the room, but it's as silent as if we were in an uninhabited, sound-proof bunker. The men are completely motionless. Somewhere outside the Idigovs' house the nightly artillery barrage is starting, but nobody so much as stirs at its uneven booming which sounds like the drums at a funeral. I realise that this war, which from force of habit we still call an 'anti-terrorist operation' has been lost. It can't be continued solely for the momentary gratification of a group of people who long ago has gone mad. The silence is broken by Mahomed's father, Isa, a haggard man whose face is deeply etched with suffering. - I was wounded serving in the Soviet army. I served on Sakhalin. I know the way things are. During the last "zachistka" they took my oldest son. They beat him up and let him go, and I decided to send him as far away as I could, to people I know, where he'd be safe. Was I wrong to do that? During this "zachistka" they've crippled my middle son, Mahomed. What am I to do? My youngest is already eleven. How long will it be before they start on him? Not one of my sons is a gunman. They don't smoke or drink. - How are we supposed to live? I do not know how. I only know that this is unacceptable. I know too how it has come about: our entire country has joined hands to follow the lead of our great statesmen (and not only Russia, but Europe and America too), and at the beginning of the twenty-first century we are acquiescing without a murmur in the torture of children in a present-day European ghetto mendaciously called a 'zone of anti-terrorist operations'. The children of this ghetto will never forget what we have done. *You give birth to a dead baby?* "Zachistka" began on 28th of January. In the evening several soldiers and armored vehicles surrounded the village. By dawn all streets were swarmed with APC's with their ID numbers painted over with mud. Very low, as if approaching for landing, above the village, helicopters hovered, and roof tiles as maple leaves in the fall wind, flew from the roofs away, leaving them uncovered. In the morning, on 29th of January, Liza Yushayeva, being in the last month of her pregnancy, went into labour. This frequently occurs unexpectedly and doesn't depend on the periods and parameters of "spetzoperations" set up by General Vladimir Moltenskoy, who commands the United Grouping in Chechnya. Liza's relatives went to ask military men, who were standing in the nearest encompassment, to let the pregnant women pass into the hospital, but they didin't allowed it for a long time. The women loudly shamed them, they said, you have also mothers, wives, sisters. But they answered that they arrived here to kill those who are alive, not to help those who are giving birth. As a matter of fact, it turn out, when servicemen ended their rage, this "process" went ahead, but Liza couldn't go those 300 meters, which was the distance to the doctor, which also was closed by troops by their "zachistka's cell". So, they began to negotiate again, about a vehicle, and again time passed away. Finally, Liza was brought to the hospital. But since there, entirely other soldiers stood, they pinned down the arranged driver and Liza to the wall - like to a fighter, who's been captured: hands up, legs spread wide apart. Yushayeva endured "the wall" for sometime and then she began to faint. Soon, a baby was born, but it was dead. Do you still think you should be supporting this war because of some aim that's being pursued and so things wouldn't get worse? Things cannot get worse. We have lost all sense of the morality and restraint we were taught in less tumultuous times, and something more vile and loathesome than we could ever imagine has erupted from the murkiest depths of our souls. - Do you deliver a dead baby, because you weren't allowed to give birth to a live one? - point blank, like a shot, asked a woman looking into Magomed's room. - If you know the answer, you are still a happy person. Anna Politkovskaya from Stariye Atagi ------------------------------ From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Sat Sep 20 06:02:23 2008 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 17:32:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Today's "media circus" at Jamia In-Reply-To: <77CF3B10-11CF-4CCE-A080-CC870E7044D1@sarai.net> Message-ID: <737889.54388.qm@web53601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Did you guys factor in the small detail that a policeman has died?Was it to get more ratings for the "media circus" ? http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/sep/19del1.htm Mohan Chand Sharma, inspector of the Delhi [Images] Police Special Cell who was critically injured during an encounter with Delhi blasts-linked terrorists, died in a hospital on Friday evening. "We have lost our best man," Joint Commissioner of Police (Special Cell) Karnal Singh told PTI. Forty-one-year-old Sharma, a highly decorated officer who received three bullet injuries in his abdomen, thigh and right arm in the gunbattle at Jamia Nagar in South Delhi, succumbed to his injuries at the Holy Family hospital at 7 pm, doctors attending him said. A recipient of seven gallantry medals, Sharma, who had led the police team against the terrorists wanted in connection with the Delhi and Ahmedabad [Images] blasts, underwent an operation to remove the bullets from his body. The profusely-bleeding officer was taken to the hospital. --- On Sat, 9/20/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Today's "media circus" at Jamia > To: "Yousuf" > Cc: "sarai list" > Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008, 2:01 AM > Dear Yousuf, > > Many thanks for this post and for sharing your thoughts on > the 'media > circus'. > > Watching the 'media circus' unfold on television, I > was appalled at > the manner in which the 'spectacle' was priming > itself up through the > day. A channel called 'News 24' for instance, was > repeatedly > informing us that it 'was the first to transmit > pictures of the > encounter' etc, as if it had just won India yet another > sharp- > shooting gold medal in the Olympics. > > A thought that did strike me was, "'how much more > disrespectful can > the blood-lust of this spectacle of a hunt, get to all > those who died > in today's 'Encounter' , be they policemen on > duty, or 'alleged' > terrorists ?" > > I think we need to give some serious thought to the fact > that these > days police encounters are actually an extended part of > 'Reality > TV' (which in any case, the entire genre should be more > appropriately > called 'Surreality TV'). That seem scripted well in > advance. How else > (as you so cogently point out) can one explain the sudden > appearance > of large OB vans, with heavy duty equipment, battling heavy > rush hour > traffic, in a congested area like Jamia Nagar, just at the > 'nick of > time'? > > The TV commentators, throughout the day, referred to what > their > 'sources' in the Special Cell, or in the Delhi > Police, told them. I > wondered to what degree the entire 'Operation' was > co-scripted, > between these 'sources' and the newsrooms of > Television channels. > There seems something almost monotonously repetitive in > these > situations. A strange feeling of Deja-Vu. Something tells > me we have > seen this before. Or is it just that I have watched way too > much > 'reality' ? > > regards > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > On 19-Sep-08, at 8:25 PM, Yousuf wrote: > > > Friends > > I have titled this message the “media circus”, > although I am > > actually referring to this morning’s so-called > encounter killing of > > two young people referred to as “terrorists” in > L-18 Batla House, > > Jamia Nagar, by the Delhi police. I call it media > circus because > > that’s what I think it really is, like many more > such incidents. > > > > The incident happened in my neigbourhood, about 150 > meters from my > > house. So I have the opportunity to see how things are > turning up. > > I had gone out of the area for some work while the > incident was > > taking place around 11 am, but found it impossible to > reach back > > home 2 hours later, because the road for about 1 and a > half > > kilometer (on both sides) was completely blocked, not > by the police > > vehicles, but by the parked OB vans of the countless > TV channels, > > some of which I never heard of before. Each of these > vehicles had > > its generators on, and thick video cables jetting out > of them for > > several meters to the other end where the cameraperson > and the > > excited anchor were shouting how two terrorists have > been killed in > > the fierce encounter. Most local people are surprised > at the speed > > with which the TV crews arrived here and in such large > number. > > Apparently, the Delhi Police had already told a > section of the > > press they are going for a raid in Batla House, based > > on the suspect Abu Bashir’s tip-off (I heard this > from a anchor on > > Times NOW channel, although Police chief Dadwal is now > denying > > there is any link with Abu Bashir), but they didn’t > obviously say > > it was going to be an encounter. Its strange that the > local > > residents got to know about the incident only after > the two people > > had been killed – many in fact learnt it from the > Aaj-tak channel. > > They claim they heard only the police firing and no > gunshots from > > inside the flat, which the police claim have injured > two of their > > constables. > > > > Most of you watching news TV in your homes may have > already heard > > the cacophony of the TV anchors, each trying to be > shriller than > > the other to prove that the local members of the > Indian Mujahideen > > have been killed. They now seem to have memorized > their lines on > > this issue well, since they have to repeat the same > thing again and > > again. The graphics, animated logos, crawling tickers, > and dramatic > > music/soundtrack to go with such coverage are always > ready in the > > cans to be used at short notice. A cameraman running > towards Batla > > House is nibbling at a burger while he holds on to a > camera in his > > other hand. I saw two members of a TV crew outside the > Holy Family > > Hospital (where the injured policemen have been taken) > fiercely > > fight about which camera angle would look best for a > sound byte. > > Everything looks as if planned and part of the usual > business. The > > cops are happily allowing the media to climb any wall > to get the > > best shot while they beat the local > > rickshawpullers to leave the roads clean. The message > has got > > across loud and clear: we told you – Batla House is > a haven of > > terrorists. > > > > But many things sound fishy. I’ve been hearing a lot > of angry > > conversations in the neighborhood: people are asking > that if the > > police had only planned a simple raid (which they did > 2 days ago in > > Zakir Nagar and Abul Fazl Enclave too), why did they > have to bring > > battalions of police and encounter specialists with > AK-56 and other > > deadly looking guns (that I myself saw) in advance. > And why is the > > media called in even before the residents are told. Of > course the > > fact the this happens in the month of Ramzan, on a > Friday, and near > > a large mosque where people were going to gather in > large numbers > > later for prayers, sounds just too predictable and > clichéd for > > anyone’s imagination. Some locals claim that the > police had been > > visiting this place (and that particular house) since > last few > > days, and the so-called terrorists and their weapons > were probably > > “planted” last night for this encounter. This > claim would obviously > > find no takers in the presently > > created euphoria (did you see any channel showing a > sound byte to > > this affect?) I didn’t find a single local resident > who is not fed > > up with this oft-repeated image of Jamia Nagar as > harboring > > terrorists. But none of the channels I saw aired the > public angst > > against their portrayal. > > > > To be honest, one shouldn’t deny that the Batla > House area has some > > criminal and anti-social elements, just as Darya Ganj > or Shahadra > > or Govindpuri would have. But most local residents > believe that for > > Jamia to become a haven of such criminal elements, the > local police > > and land-mafia are equally responsible. Jamia area is > one of the > > rare localities of Delhi where the rule of law > doesn’t apply in > > most spheres. The land mafia openly indulges in > illegal > > construction; no rules of traffic apply here, the > condition of > > civic amenities is abysmal. Illegal shops, factories > (many with > > child labour) and businesses operate here actively > with police > > connivance. The local politicians (MLA, councilors) > are actually > > part of the problem rather than the solution. There is > a full-scale > > illegal ISBT (bus stand) running in Batla House’s > backyard to bring > > hundreds of migrants everyday from small towns of UP > (you can see > > the police openly accepting bribe from its > > operators any day). > > > > There is no question of sealing whatever the heck > business you may > > run here, and most places stink with heaps of garbage > everywhere. > > There are no RWAs or citizen’s initiatives to > discuss the problems. > > It is truly a manufactured ghetto of Delhi – why > don’t all these > > problems happen in Lajpat Nagar or Kalkaji? I am > positive that the > > authorities are aware that criminals (or what they > call terrorists) > > exist here. But they deliberately allow them to thrive > here – never > > to be touched in the normal/peaceful times – keep > them for the > > right time. It is as if Batla House is a laboratory or > breeding > > ground where things are allowed to grow by providing > all the > > required ingredients and safety. The fruits are > plucked only when > > they are ripe (or required). So today, they simply > came to gather > > the fruit they had sown, and made a big exhibition of > it by calling > > the media. The local people, frightened that the next > encounter may > > happen in their house, simply > > squirm and hide in their personal ghettos. > > > > In all this, a big responsibility lies with the media, > and I am yet > > to come across bold and honest reporters who are ready > to go beyond > > the obvious and investigate the truth – not simply > repeat what is > > told to them by the authorities or their channel > bosses. > > > > Yousuf Saeed > > September 19, 2008 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From indersalim at gmail.com Sat Sep 20 08:42:26 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 08:42:26 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Fwd: Through a screen, darkly In-Reply-To: <4d47f9660809190945r38a37adcy6cfbe99f4fec5ef5@mail.gmail.com> References: <4d47f9660809190945r38a37adcy6cfbe99f4fec5ef5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70809192012j57516596y95a29130c74d2298@mail.gmail.com> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Raza Rumi Date: Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 10:15 PM Subject: Through a screen, darkly To: Through a screen, darkly Posted: 18 Sep 2008 12:43 PM CDT My piece published in the Friday Times last week. Pakistani cable operators, following the cyclical escalation of imagined hatreds, discontinued the transmission of Indian satellite channels in 2002. The absence of Indian TV soaps, fodder for an entertainment hungry populace, was widely mourned. Once, not long ago, the axiomatic edge of Pakistan's TV serials was widely [...] http://www.razarumi.com/2008/09/18/through-a-screen-darkly/ You are subscribed to email updates from Jahane Rumi To stop receiving these emails, you may unsubscribe now. Email Delivery powered by FeedBurner Inbox too full? Subscribe to the feed version of Jahane Rumi in a feed reader. If you prefer to unsubscribe via postal mail, write to: Jahane Rumi, c/o FeedBurner, 20 W Kinzie, 9th Floor, Chicago IL USA 60610 - -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From indersalim at gmail.com Sat Sep 20 08:58:41 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 08:58:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Today's "media circus" at Jamia In-Reply-To: <737889.54388.qm@web53601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <77CF3B10-11CF-4CCE-A080-CC870E7044D1@sarai.net> <737889.54388.qm@web53601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70809192028m2cfcf1c9t42bef9fbf4235fee@mail.gmail.com> Dear Lalit Apparently, Delhi blasts have nothing to do with Kashmir problem. Let us dismiss Yousf's media circus theory regarding encounter in Jamia, but let us think why it happened. can we dismiss the fact that Babri Masjid demolition happened, Bombay riots, and then Gujarat where most of the muslim population had to suffer for no fault of theirs. How is it surprising that some of the affected get motivated to do this ugly work in Delhi or elsewhere. Who is the culprit? Media circus is a fact New World Order, we are still learning to live with it. All we need to know is that how it works, what looks representation of reality is truly a manufactured thing from word go. love is On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 6:02 AM, Rahul Asthana wrote: > Did you guys factor in the small detail that a policeman has died?Was it to get more ratings for the "media circus" ? > http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/sep/19del1.htm > Mohan Chand Sharma, inspector of the Delhi [Images] Police Special Cell who was critically injured during an encounter with Delhi blasts-linked terrorists, died in a hospital on Friday evening. > > "We have lost our best man," Joint Commissioner of Police (Special Cell) Karnal Singh told PTI. > > Forty-one-year-old Sharma, a highly decorated officer who received three bullet injuries in his abdomen, thigh and right arm in the gunbattle at Jamia Nagar in South Delhi, succumbed to his injuries at the Holy Family hospital at 7 pm, doctors attending him said. > > A recipient of seven gallantry medals, Sharma, who had led the police team against the terrorists wanted in connection with the Delhi and Ahmedabad [Images] blasts, underwent an operation to remove the bullets from his body. > > The profusely-bleeding officer was taken to the hospital. > --- On Sat, 9/20/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > >> From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Today's "media circus" at Jamia >> To: "Yousuf" >> Cc: "sarai list" >> Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008, 2:01 AM >> Dear Yousuf, >> >> Many thanks for this post and for sharing your thoughts on >> the 'media >> circus'. >> >> Watching the 'media circus' unfold on television, I >> was appalled at >> the manner in which the 'spectacle' was priming >> itself up through the >> day. A channel called 'News 24' for instance, was >> repeatedly >> informing us that it 'was the first to transmit >> pictures of the >> encounter' etc, as if it had just won India yet another >> sharp- >> shooting gold medal in the Olympics. >> >> A thought that did strike me was, "'how much more >> disrespectful can >> the blood-lust of this spectacle of a hunt, get to all >> those who died >> in today's 'Encounter' , be they policemen on >> duty, or 'alleged' >> terrorists ?" >> >> I think we need to give some serious thought to the fact >> that these >> days police encounters are actually an extended part of >> 'Reality >> TV' (which in any case, the entire genre should be more >> appropriately >> called 'Surreality TV'). That seem scripted well in >> advance. How else >> (as you so cogently point out) can one explain the sudden >> appearance >> of large OB vans, with heavy duty equipment, battling heavy >> rush hour >> traffic, in a congested area like Jamia Nagar, just at the >> 'nick of >> time'? >> >> The TV commentators, throughout the day, referred to what >> their >> 'sources' in the Special Cell, or in the Delhi >> Police, told them. I >> wondered to what degree the entire 'Operation' was >> co-scripted, >> between these 'sources' and the newsrooms of >> Television channels. >> There seems something almost monotonously repetitive in >> these >> situations. A strange feeling of Deja-Vu. Something tells >> me we have >> seen this before. Or is it just that I have watched way too >> much >> 'reality' ? >> >> regards >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 19-Sep-08, at 8:25 PM, Yousuf wrote: >> >> > Friends >> > I have titled this message the "media circus", >> although I am >> > actually referring to this morning's so-called >> encounter killing of >> > two young people referred to as "terrorists" in >> L-18 Batla House, >> > Jamia Nagar, by the Delhi police. I call it media >> circus because >> > that's what I think it really is, like many more >> such incidents. >> > >> > The incident happened in my neigbourhood, about 150 >> meters from my >> > house. So I have the opportunity to see how things are >> turning up. >> > I had gone out of the area for some work while the >> incident was >> > taking place around 11 am, but found it impossible to >> reach back >> > home 2 hours later, because the road for about 1 and a >> half >> > kilometer (on both sides) was completely blocked, not >> by the police >> > vehicles, but by the parked OB vans of the countless >> TV channels, >> > some of which I never heard of before. Each of these >> vehicles had >> > its generators on, and thick video cables jetting out >> of them for >> > several meters to the other end where the cameraperson >> and the >> > excited anchor were shouting how two terrorists have >> been killed in >> > the fierce encounter. Most local people are surprised >> at the speed >> > with which the TV crews arrived here and in such large >> number. >> > Apparently, the Delhi Police had already told a >> section of the >> > press they are going for a raid in Batla House, based >> > on the suspect Abu Bashir's tip-off (I heard this >> from a anchor on >> > Times NOW channel, although Police chief Dadwal is now >> denying >> > there is any link with Abu Bashir), but they didn't >> obviously say >> > it was going to be an encounter. Its strange that the >> local >> > residents got to know about the incident only after >> the two people >> > had been killed – many in fact learnt it from the >> Aaj-tak channel. >> > They claim they heard only the police firing and no >> gunshots from >> > inside the flat, which the police claim have injured >> two of their >> > constables. >> > >> > Most of you watching news TV in your homes may have >> already heard >> > the cacophony of the TV anchors, each trying to be >> shriller than >> > the other to prove that the local members of the >> Indian Mujahideen >> > have been killed. They now seem to have memorized >> their lines on >> > this issue well, since they have to repeat the same >> thing again and >> > again. The graphics, animated logos, crawling tickers, >> and dramatic >> > music/soundtrack to go with such coverage are always >> ready in the >> > cans to be used at short notice. A cameraman running >> towards Batla >> > House is nibbling at a burger while he holds on to a >> camera in his >> > other hand. I saw two members of a TV crew outside the >> Holy Family >> > Hospital (where the injured policemen have been taken) >> fiercely >> > fight about which camera angle would look best for a >> sound byte. >> > Everything looks as if planned and part of the usual >> business. The >> > cops are happily allowing the media to climb any wall >> to get the >> > best shot while they beat the local >> > rickshawpullers to leave the roads clean. The message >> has got >> > across loud and clear: we told you – Batla House is >> a haven of >> > terrorists. >> > >> > But many things sound fishy. I've been hearing a lot >> of angry >> > conversations in the neighborhood: people are asking >> that if the >> > police had only planned a simple raid (which they did >> 2 days ago in >> > Zakir Nagar and Abul Fazl Enclave too), why did they >> have to bring >> > battalions of police and encounter specialists with >> AK-56 and other >> > deadly looking guns (that I myself saw) in advance. >> And why is the >> > media called in even before the residents are told. Of >> course the >> > fact the this happens in the month of Ramzan, on a >> Friday, and near >> > a large mosque where people were going to gather in >> large numbers >> > later for prayers, sounds just too predictable and >> clichéd for >> > anyone's imagination. Some locals claim that the >> police had been >> > visiting this place (and that particular house) since >> last few >> > days, and the so-called terrorists and their weapons >> were probably >> > "planted" last night for this encounter. This >> claim would obviously >> > find no takers in the presently >> > created euphoria (did you see any channel showing a >> sound byte to >> > this affect?) I didn't find a single local resident >> who is not fed >> > up with this oft-repeated image of Jamia Nagar as >> harboring >> > terrorists. But none of the channels I saw aired the >> public angst >> > against their portrayal. >> > >> > To be honest, one shouldn't deny that the Batla >> House area has some >> > criminal and anti-social elements, just as Darya Ganj >> or Shahadra >> > or Govindpuri would have. But most local residents >> believe that for >> > Jamia to become a haven of such criminal elements, the >> local police >> > and land-mafia are equally responsible. Jamia area is >> one of the >> > rare localities of Delhi where the rule of law >> doesn't apply in >> > most spheres. The land mafia openly indulges in >> illegal >> > construction; no rules of traffic apply here, the >> condition of >> > civic amenities is abysmal. Illegal shops, factories >> (many with >> > child labour) and businesses operate here actively >> with police >> > connivance. The local politicians (MLA, councilors) >> are actually >> > part of the problem rather than the solution. There is >> a full-scale >> > illegal ISBT (bus stand) running in Batla House's >> backyard to bring >> > hundreds of migrants everyday from small towns of UP >> (you can see >> > the police openly accepting bribe from its >> > operators any day). >> > >> > There is no question of sealing whatever the heck >> business you may >> > run here, and most places stink with heaps of garbage >> everywhere. >> > There are no RWAs or citizen's initiatives to >> discuss the problems. >> > It is truly a manufactured ghetto of Delhi – why >> don't all these >> > problems happen in Lajpat Nagar or Kalkaji? I am >> positive that the >> > authorities are aware that criminals (or what they >> call terrorists) >> > exist here. But they deliberately allow them to thrive >> here – never >> > to be touched in the normal/peaceful times – keep >> them for the >> > right time. It is as if Batla House is a laboratory or >> breeding >> > ground where things are allowed to grow by providing >> all the >> > required ingredients and safety. The fruits are >> plucked only when >> > they are ripe (or required). So today, they simply >> came to gather >> > the fruit they had sown, and made a big exhibition of >> it by calling >> > the media. The local people, frightened that the next >> encounter may >> > happen in their house, simply >> > squirm and hide in their personal ghettos. >> > >> > In all this, a big responsibility lies with the media, >> and I am yet >> > to come across bold and honest reporters who are ready >> to go beyond >> > the obvious and investigate the truth – not simply >> repeat what is >> > told to them by the authorities or their channel >> bosses. >> > >> > Yousuf Saeed >> > September 19, 2008 >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the >> city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: >> >> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> Raqs Media Collective >> shuddha at sarai.net >> www.sarai.net >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject >> header. >> To unsubscribe: >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: >> > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat Sep 20 09:00:39 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 08:30:39 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] =?windows-1252?q?From_son=92s_sickbed_to_bullet_bur?= =?windows-1252?q?st?= Message-ID: <6353c690809192030y725258cy9e986a3e1d1ef8a8@mail.gmail.com> >From son's sickbed to bullet burst ANANYA SENGUPTA The Telegraph Link - http://www.telegraphindia.com/1080920/jsp/frontpage/story_9861096.jsp *New Delhi, Sept. 19:* Inspector Mohan Chand Sharma had rushed to Batla House straight from hospital — from the bedside of his 10-year-old son who is desperately battling dengue. A couple of hours and a gunfight later, the 41-year-old police hero was himself being wheeled into another hospital, with three bullets in his stomach and one in the thigh. Some sources said he took a fifth bullet in his right arm. By 6.45pm, the winner of 75-odd encounters, 150 medals and seven gallantry awards had lost his final battle: he was operated on and put on life support but had haemorrhaged too much blood, doctors said. His son too lay critically ill this evening, officers said. "He is our pride; he died a hero's death," Sharma's uncle said. "For him, the police force was his family; it always came first. He gave up his life for the force, I'm sure that was what he wanted." "It is officers like your husband who make us all feel confident that our security is in safe hands," Prime Minister Manmohan Singh wrote to Sharma's wife. "Your husband's passing away is a great loss for our country and society." Sharma's battle-hardened seniors choked back tears as they waited at the Holy Family Hospital to receive their slain colleague's body and take it to the All India Institute of Medical Sciences for the post-mortem. "We have lost our best man," joint commissioner of police (special cell) Karnail Singh said. "His father asked me how his son had died, where he was hit. I just couldn't answer him." Sharma's father and sister Heeradevi couldn't speak a word. Sharma, who was without a bullet-proof vest, had led his special cell team from the front, being the first to approach the house where the alleged militants were holed up. Assistant commissioner Sanjeev Yadav, who had led Sharma during an inter-state operation in Jammu and Kashmir, was by his side during today's encounter too. "I have lost a friend. He took the initiative and went in first; Balwant (the head constable who was shot but is recovering) was close behind him. I couldn't save him and this will haunt me all my life," Yadav said. Sharma had joined the force as a sub-inspector in 1989 and soon proved himself an able lieutenant to assistant commissioner Rajbir Singh, who was gunned down earlier this year. Sharma's team had pursued the militants involved in the December 2001 Parliament attack. He had taken part in encounters where 35 terrorists and 40 inter-state gangsters were killed, police sources said. He helped arrest 129 gangsters and 80 militants. The officer, who won the President's medal this year, is survived by his wife, ailing son and eight-year-old daughter. Jaiprakash Associates, a leading industrial group, announced it would hand Rs 11 lakh to the family as a mark of respect for Sharma's "exemplary courage". Sonia Gandhi sent a condolence message saying the officer had fought valiantly and sacrificed his life in the service of the country. He was an "exceptionally brave officer who has been an inspiration to the security forces", Manmohan Singh said. [image: Top] From ysaeed7 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 20 10:32:13 2008 From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com (Yousuf) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 22:02:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Today's "media circus" at Jamia In-Reply-To: <737889.54388.qm@web53601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <573914.84677.qm@web51404.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Friends I wanted to make a clarification. When I wrote and posted my message about the media circus (at 8:25 m IST on 19th September), the news about the police Inspector Mohan Chand Sharma was not available to me – I saw it only in the morning. I am saddened by his unfortunate death as much as I would be on the death of other innocent people affected by terror attacks. But the inspector’s death would not make me change much of my message. Please read my mail again: I did not make a claim about this being a fake encounter – I was only expressing the public opinion here - which is writ large if you visit the area. But more importantly I was making two points: (1) the role our media plays in strengthening the version of the state and ignoring the public, and (2) how an area like Batla House has been left deliberately (by the authorities) to become a breeding ground for criminals which can be cashed when the time is ripe. Can anybody deny these two points? Yousuf --- On Sat, 9/20/08, Rahul Asthana wrote: > From: Rahul Asthana > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Today's "media circus" at Jamia > To: "Yousuf" , "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > Cc: "sarai list" > Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008, 6:02 AM > Did you guys factor in the small detail that a policeman > has died?Was it to get more ratings for the "media > circus" ? > http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/sep/19del1.htm > Mohan Chand Sharma, inspector of the Delhi [Images] Police > Special Cell who was critically injured during an encounter > with Delhi blasts-linked terrorists, died in a hospital on > Friday evening. > > "We have lost our best man," Joint Commissioner > of Police (Special Cell) Karnal Singh told PTI. > > Forty-one-year-old Sharma, a highly decorated officer who > received three bullet injuries in his abdomen, thigh and > right arm in the gunbattle at Jamia Nagar in South Delhi, > succumbed to his injuries at the Holy Family hospital at 7 > pm, doctors attending him said. > > A recipient of seven gallantry medals, Sharma, who had led > the police team against the terrorists wanted in connection > with the Delhi and Ahmedabad [Images] blasts, underwent an > operation to remove the bullets from his body. > > The profusely-bleeding officer was taken to the hospital. > --- On Sat, 9/20/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > wrote: > > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Today's "media > circus" at Jamia > > To: "Yousuf" > > Cc: "sarai list" > > > Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008, 2:01 AM > > Dear Yousuf, > > > > Many thanks for this post and for sharing your > thoughts on > > the 'media > > circus'. > > > > Watching the 'media circus' unfold on > television, I > > was appalled at > > the manner in which the 'spectacle' was > priming > > itself up through the > > day. A channel called 'News 24' for instance, > was > > repeatedly > > informing us that it 'was the first to transmit > > pictures of the > > encounter' etc, as if it had just won India yet > another > > sharp- > > shooting gold medal in the Olympics. > > > > A thought that did strike me was, "'how much > more > > disrespectful can > > the blood-lust of this spectacle of a hunt, get to all > > those who died > > in today's 'Encounter' , be they policemen > on > > duty, or 'alleged' > > terrorists ?" > > > > I think we need to give some serious thought to the > fact > > that these > > days police encounters are actually an extended part > of > > 'Reality > > TV' (which in any case, the entire genre should be > more > > appropriately > > called 'Surreality TV'). That seem scripted > well in > > advance. How else > > (as you so cogently point out) can one explain the > sudden > > appearance > > of large OB vans, with heavy duty equipment, battling > heavy > > rush hour > > traffic, in a congested area like Jamia Nagar, just at > the > > 'nick of > > time'? > > > > The TV commentators, throughout the day, referred to > what > > their > > 'sources' in the Special Cell, or in the Delhi > > Police, told them. I > > wondered to what degree the entire 'Operation' > was > > co-scripted, > > between these 'sources' and the newsrooms of > > Television channels. > > There seems something almost monotonously repetitive > in > > these > > situations. A strange feeling of Deja-Vu. Something > tells > > me we have > > seen this before. Or is it just that I have watched > way too > > much > > 'reality' ? > > > > regards > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 19-Sep-08, at 8:25 PM, Yousuf wrote: > > > > > Friends > > > I have titled this message the “media > circus”, > > although I am > > > actually referring to this morning’s so-called > > encounter killing of > > > two young people referred to as “terrorists” > in > > L-18 Batla House, > > > Jamia Nagar, by the Delhi police. I call it media > > circus because > > > that’s what I think it really is, like many > more > > such incidents. > > > > > > The incident happened in my neigbourhood, about > 150 > > meters from my > > > house. So I have the opportunity to see how > things are > > turning up. > > > I had gone out of the area for some work while > the > > incident was > > > taking place around 11 am, but found it > impossible to > > reach back > > > home 2 hours later, because the road for about 1 > and a > > half > > > kilometer (on both sides) was completely blocked, > not > > by the police > > > vehicles, but by the parked OB vans of the > countless > > TV channels, > > > some of which I never heard of before. Each of > these > > vehicles had > > > its generators on, and thick video cables jetting > out > > of them for > > > several meters to the other end where the > cameraperson > > and the > > > excited anchor were shouting how two terrorists > have > > been killed in > > > the fierce encounter. Most local people are > surprised > > at the speed > > > with which the TV crews arrived here and in such > large > > number. > > > Apparently, the Delhi Police had already told a > > section of the > > > press they are going for a raid in Batla House, > based > > > on the suspect Abu Bashir’s tip-off (I heard > this > > from a anchor on > > > Times NOW channel, although Police chief Dadwal > is now > > denying > > > there is any link with Abu Bashir), but they > didn’t > > obviously say > > > it was going to be an encounter. Its strange that > the > > local > > > residents got to know about the incident only > after > > the two people > > > had been killed – many in fact learnt it from > the > > Aaj-tak channel. > > > They claim they heard only the police firing and > no > > gunshots from > > > inside the flat, which the police claim have > injured > > two of their > > > constables. > > > > > > Most of you watching news TV in your homes may > have > > already heard > > > the cacophony of the TV anchors, each trying to > be > > shriller than > > > the other to prove that the local members of the > > Indian Mujahideen > > > have been killed. They now seem to have memorized > > their lines on > > > this issue well, since they have to repeat the > same > > thing again and > > > again. The graphics, animated logos, crawling > tickers, > > and dramatic > > > music/soundtrack to go with such coverage are > always > > ready in the > > > cans to be used at short notice. A cameraman > running > > towards Batla > > > House is nibbling at a burger while he holds on > to a > > camera in his > > > other hand. I saw two members of a TV crew > outside the > > Holy Family > > > Hospital (where the injured policemen have been > taken) > > fiercely > > > fight about which camera angle would look best > for a > > sound byte. > > > Everything looks as if planned and part of the > usual > > business. The > > > cops are happily allowing the media to climb any > wall > > to get the > > > best shot while they beat the local > > > rickshawpullers to leave the roads clean. The > message > > has got > > > across loud and clear: we told you – Batla > House is > > a haven of > > > terrorists. > > > > > > But many things sound fishy. I’ve been hearing > a lot > > of angry > > > conversations in the neighborhood: people are > asking > > that if the > > > police had only planned a simple raid (which they > did > > 2 days ago in > > > Zakir Nagar and Abul Fazl Enclave too), why did > they > > have to bring > > > battalions of police and encounter specialists > with > > AK-56 and other > > > deadly looking guns (that I myself saw) in > advance. > > And why is the > > > media called in even before the residents are > told. Of > > course the > > > fact the this happens in the month of Ramzan, on > a > > Friday, and near > > > a large mosque where people were going to gather > in > > large numbers > > > later for prayers, sounds just too predictable > and > > clichéd for > > > anyone’s imagination. Some locals claim that > the > > police had been > > > visiting this place (and that particular house) > since > > last few > > > days, and the so-called terrorists and their > weapons > > were probably > > > “planted” last night for this encounter. This > > claim would obviously > > > find no takers in the presently > > > created euphoria (did you see any channel > showing a > > sound byte to > > > this affect?) I didn’t find a single local > resident > > who is not fed > > > up with this oft-repeated image of Jamia Nagar as > > harboring > > > terrorists. But none of the channels I saw aired > the > > public angst > > > against their portrayal. > > > > > > To be honest, one shouldn’t deny that the Batla > > House area has some > > > criminal and anti-social elements, just as Darya > Ganj > > or Shahadra > > > or Govindpuri would have. But most local > residents > > believe that for > > > Jamia to become a haven of such criminal > elements, the > > local police > > > and land-mafia are equally responsible. Jamia > area is > > one of the > > > rare localities of Delhi where the rule of law > > doesn’t apply in > > > most spheres. The land mafia openly indulges in > > illegal > > > construction; no rules of traffic apply here, the > > condition of > > > civic amenities is abysmal. Illegal shops, > factories > > (many with > > > child labour) and businesses operate here > actively > > with police > > > connivance. The local politicians (MLA, > councilors) > > are actually > > > part of the problem rather than the solution. > There is > > a full-scale > > > illegal ISBT (bus stand) running in Batla > House’s > > backyard to bring > > > hundreds of migrants everyday from small towns of > UP > > (you can see > > > the police openly accepting bribe from its > > > operators any day). > > > > > > There is no question of sealing whatever the heck > > business you may > > > run here, and most places stink with heaps of > garbage > > everywhere. > > > There are no RWAs or citizen’s initiatives to > > discuss the problems. > > > It is truly a manufactured ghetto of Delhi – > why > > don’t all these > > > problems happen in Lajpat Nagar or Kalkaji? I am > > positive that the > > > authorities are aware that criminals (or what > they > > call terrorists) > > > exist here. But they deliberately allow them to > thrive > > here – never > > > to be touched in the normal/peaceful times – > keep > > them for the > > > right time. It is as if Batla House is a > laboratory or > > breeding > > > ground where things are allowed to grow by > providing > > all the > > > required ingredients and safety. The fruits are > > plucked only when > > > they are ripe (or required). So today, they > simply > > came to gather > > > the fruit they had sown, and made a big > exhibition of > > it by calling > > > the media. The local people, frightened that the > next > > encounter may > > > happen in their house, simply > > > squirm and hide in their personal ghettos. > > > > > > In all this, a big responsibility lies with the > media, > > and I am yet > > > to come across bold and honest reporters who are > ready > > to go beyond > > > the obvious and investigate the truth – not > simply > > repeat what is > > > told to them by the authorities or their channel > > bosses. > > > > > > Yousuf Saeed > > > September 19, 2008 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the > > city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > Raqs Media Collective > > shuddha at sarai.net > > www.sarai.net > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > subject > > header. > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From sonia.jabbar at gmail.com Sat Sep 20 11:57:28 2008 From: sonia.jabbar at gmail.com (S. Jabbar) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 11:57:28 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Iraq Message-ID: *BOOKS-IRAQ: "We Blew Her to Pieces"* Inter Press Service By Dahr Jamail *MARFA, Texas, Sep 16 (IPS) - Aside from the Iraqi people, nobody knows what the U.S. military is doing in Iraq better than the soldiers themselves. A new book gives readers vivid and detailed accounts of the devastation the U.S. occupation has brought to Iraq, in the soldiers' own words.* "Winter Soldier Iraq and Afghanistan: Eyewitness Accounts of the Occupation," published by Haymarket Books Tuesday, is a gut-wrenching, historic chronicle of what the U.S. military has done to Iraq, as well as its own soldiers. Authored by Iraq Veterans Against the War (IVAW) and journalist Aaron Glantz, the book is a reader for hearings that took place in Silver Spring, Maryland between Mar. 13-16, 2008 at the National Labour College. "I remember one woman walking by," said Jason Washburn, a corporal in the U.S. Marines who served three tours in Iraq. "She was carrying a huge bag, and she looked like she was heading toward us, so we lit her up with the Mark 19, which is an automatic grenade launcher, and when the dust settled, we realised that the bag was full of groceries. She had been trying to bring us food and we blew her to pieces." Washburn testified on a panel that discussed the rules of engagement in Iraq, and how lax they were, even to the point of being virtually non-existent. "During the course of my three tours, the rules of engagement changed a lot," Washburn's testimony continues. "The higher the threat the more viciously we were permitted and expected to respond." His emotionally charged testimony, like all of those in the book that covered panels addressing dehumanisation, civilian testimony, sexism in the military, veterans' health care, and the breakdown of the military, raised issues that were repeated again and again by other veterans. "Something else we were encouraged to do, almost with a wink and nudge, was to carry 'drop weapons', or by my third tour, 'drop shovels'. We would carry these weapons or shovels with us because if we accidentally shot a civilian, we could just toss the weapon on the body, and make them look like an insurgent," Washburn said. Four days of searing testimony, witnessed by this writer, is consolidated into the book, which makes for a difficult read. One page after another is filled with devastating stories from the soldiers about what is being done in Iraq. Everything from the taking of "trophy" photos of the dead, to torture and slaughtering of civilians is included. "We're trying to build a historical record of what continues to happen in this war and what the war is really about," Glantz told IPS. Hart Viges, a member of the 82nd Airborne Division of the Army who served one year in Iraq, tells of taking orders over the radio. "One time they said to fire on all taxicabs because the enemy was using them for transportation...One of the snipers replied back, 'Excuse me? Did I hear that right? Fire on all taxicabs?' The lieutenant colonel responded, 'You heard me, trooper, fire on all taxicabs.' After that, the town lit up, with all the units firing on cars. This was my first experience with war, and that kind of set the tone for the rest of the deployment." Vincent Emanuele, a Marine rifleman who spent a year in the al-Qaim area of Iraq near the Syrian border, told of emptying magazines of bullets into the city without identifying targets, running over corpses with Humvees and stopping to take "trophy" photos of bodies. "An act that took place quite often in Iraq was taking pot shots at cars that drove by," he said. "This was not an isolated incident, and it took place for most of our eight-month deployment." Kelly Dougherty, the executive director of IVAW, blames the behaviour of soldiers in Iraq on the policies of the U.S. government. "The abuses committed in the occupations, far from being the result of a 'few bad apples' misbehaving, are the result of our government's Middle East policy, which is crafted in the highest spheres of U.S. power," she said. Knowing this, however, does little to soften the emotional and moral devastation of the accounts. "You see an individual with a white flag and he does anything but approach you slowly and obey commands, assume it's a trick and kill him," Michael Leduc, a corporal in the Marines who was part of the U.S. attack of Fallujah in November 2004, said were the orders from his battalion JAG officer he received before entering the city. This is an important book for the public of the United States, in particular, because the Winter Soldier testimonies were not covered by any of the larger media outlets, aside from the Washington Post, which ran a single piece on the event that was buried in the Metro section. The New York Times, CNN, and network news channels ABC, NBC and CBS ignored it completely. This is particularly important in light of the fact that, as former Marine Jon Turner stated, "Anytime we did have embedded reporters with us, our actions changed drastically. We never acted the same. We were always on key with everything, did everything by the book." "To me it's about giving a picture of what war is like," Glantz added, "Because here in the U.S. we have this very sanitised version of what war is. But war is when we have a large group of armed people killing large numbers of other people. And that is the picture that people will get from reading veterans testimony...the true face of war." Dehumanisation of the soldiers themselves is covered in the book, as it includes testimony of sexism, racism, and the plight of veterans upon their return home as they struggle to obtain care from the Veterans Administration. There is much testimony on the dehumanisation of the Iraqi people as well. Brian Casler, a corporal in the Marines, spoke to some of this that he witnessed during the invasion of Iraq. "But on these convoys, I saw marines defecate into MRE bags or urinate in bottles and throw them at children on the side of the road," he stated. Numerous accounts from soldiers include the prevalence of degrading terms for Iraqis, such as "hajis," "towel-heads" and "sand-niggers". Scott Ewing, who served in Iraq from 2005-2006, admitted on one panel that units intentionally gave candy to Iraqi children for reasons other than "winning hearts and minds". "There was also another motive," Ewing said, "If the kids were around our vehicles, the bad guys wouldn't attack. We used the kids as human shields." Glantz admits that it would be difficult for the average U.S. citizen to read the book, and believes it is important to keep in mind while doing so what it took for the veterans to give this historic testimony. "They could have been heroes, but what they are doing here is even more heroic -- which is telling the truth," Glantz told IPS. "They didn't have to come forward. They chose to come forward." From ahmed_shakeb at yahoo.com Sat Sep 20 11:58:40 2008 From: ahmed_shakeb at yahoo.com (shakeb ahmed) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 23:28:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] =?utf-8?q?=28no_subject=29?= Message-ID: <644207.97073.qm@web58008.mail.re3.yahoo.com> GROUND ZERO Something happened early yesterday! It invaded my sleep. I am a trip for a while. I am a trip, quite bad, at the rainy night! Shameless tragedy engulfs me! In my fitful sleep last night a dream: I saw the specialist Daya Naik and ACP Rajbir wringing their hands, sweat on the brow, cursing, they missed their appointment with their rightful fame. They are mouthing confused obscenities… ‘…we are heroes too…. will someone listen all you idiots out there!’ But hero is the one who meets death falling in the line of duty, and escapes the flood of questions that might, or very well might not, come on! Not to malign a dead man, how long till somebody starts probing the gray areas of the respectable trail of encounters my hero Mohan Sharma meandered to the screams and kicks of his Kafkaesque puppet masters on the pillared castles at the Hill. A father rises from the sickbed of his son and smashes himself into the den of vice. He is gored to death by invisible ghosts, two vanishing into thin air, and two perennially buried beneath some sogged sheets. A father, a hero, and the ghosts ……my tv girl please please show me the ghosts! My trusted chief sits surrounded, swamped, and throws aggressive facts at the byte collectors’ tubes … ‘we recovered a cache of arms and aah and aah and also…’. One imagined idiot without a microphone - this stupid obviously cannot belong to the breed, they don’t ask such inanities - shouts ‘we saw none exhibited after your encounter…isn’t that the happy, right, procedure that you exhibit the confiscations straightaway on a white chador on a dirty string-cot charpoy…yes immediately after your catch?’. Exit the scene. Exit All Fools! In my seditious dreams my scenes shift like shameless change of clothes by my honorable minister…not so honorable my lad not so honorable, some voices hububbb! In the house opposite, from where the cannons were fed the fodder, people complain of a temporary land acquisition, legal trespassing, and of being blindfolded for those some unfortunate moments. Some said they heard guns booming from one direction only. They might be wrong!!! Isn’t this a dirty confused dream only! Oh my seditious dream!!! And then I see an opportunist writer lurking in the shadows of the momentous Encounter….s/he thinks, the plot can be more fun very saleable to festival circuit filmwallah (or maybe to hardboiled realist too, why not!) if our Hero actually remains, reinstated, a hero, but because he is hardworking, and very foolish that ways, and in The Encounter lies the scenic opportunity for his corrupt nameless higher-ups and the dirty-filthy cronies down below in the ranks struggling with all their dark underdog skills to keep their vulnerable pot bellies still pointing straight, to finally bump off this much disliked priest of a difficult justice! Or what, my shameless writer thinks, if a plot is whirled around maybe as banal an incident of what the whites call The Friendly Fire ( a title at least Apoorva Lakhia in Bombay would kill for, or maybe even Madhur Bhandarkar would shop happily), and a meaty murky cover-up tale in the follow – wouldn’t it make for an ideal new wave bollywood film? I am butterflies in my stomach. I am sweating in my dreams. This writer bastard surely watches a lot of LA Confidential(s) and The American Gangster(s). I feel a dark force clutching hard at my innards…”confess bastard you condemn this writer, this purveyour of imaginary truths, confess or we will make you vomit your own blood, confess bastard, confess….” The scene shifts again: I see again an almost indecipherable figure riding up the steps of a ghetto apartment going up almost lazy-pace towards ‘his prideful kill’…I almost shout in my dreams ‘oye take at least your bullet-breaking vest oh warrior’. He keeps moving up, while a voice drums into my ears ‘he need not one, there is nothing to fear…regular drill mister!’ ‘But then why such a big gun in the hand?’ “Why, just to put it planted there…don’t we need a case?…backup plan mister, backup!” The sound continues…. more sounds, the accompaniments emerge, more pitch more sounds and more dark My dangerous dream having me in the eye of its unabating dark storm! ##A fiction on the dubious facts that sprung at L-18 BatlaHouse/JamiaNagar/ZakirNagar/GhafoorNagar/GhaffarManzil/NooruNagar etc on 19th September 2008. Event: Delhi police gunning down two terrorist in the wake of largely unsolved cases of terrorist bombing at Jaipur, Ahmedabad and Delhi. From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Sep 20 12:03:32 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 12:03:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The updated list of killings by the firing of armedforces In-Reply-To: <600E7EFF-4294-4CCA-9E12-7F2B466F02A8@sarai.net> References: <921672.85527.qm@web31813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <600E7EFF-4294-4CCA-9E12-7F2B466F02A8@sarai.net> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70809192333r7a31fcdbh924ec652712fd450@mail.gmail.com> lol......funniest post ever. How soon we have forgotten Col. Thomas who was killed in Kashmir. and then the statement People in Kashmir threw stones, like angry crowds do everywhere in the world. lol........ What an Idea Sirrr Jee. Pawan On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 1:53 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Dear Radhika, > > Thank you for your observations on Khurram's posting. > > Well, in this case some "protesters who claim to be peaceful, > holding sticks, guns and resort to arson and riot" were "garlanded." > I am referring to the ones in Jammu. You will recall, that not a > single policeman or soldier or paramilitary personnel were killed in > Kashmir. But two policemen did die in Jammu, and some truck drivers > assaulted by the 'peaceful' protestors in Jammu also succmbed, I > suppose in your opinion, "peacefully" from their injuries. Gujjar > huts were burnt in acts of "peaceful" arson. The crowds in Kashmir > who were fired upon, 50 of whom were killed at the last count, did > not bear weapons. We all saw the television pictures. They threw > stones, like angry crowds do everywhere in the world. But they did > not kill policemen. > > The government did not garland these protestors, it clamped > indefinite curfews and shot at them to kill. One the other hand it > did garland the protestors on the other side of the Banihal pass. it > held some leaders under the Public Safety Act, and then released > them. It counducted 'negotiations' with the leaders of the peaceful > protests in Jammu and garlanded them with a sham 'accord'. All these > prove that if you happen to belong to the right place, sport the > right kind of name, then even if your 'peaceful' protest turns > occasionally violent, you can still be 'garlanded' as you (in this > case) rightly point out. > > After all, we live in the country whose government called its nuclear > weapons tests in 1974, 'peaceful implosions'. > > In the novel, '1984' George Orwell, whom I have referred to in an > earlier posting, wrote about how in the language perfected by > fictional regime that he was decribing, (newspeak) 'PEACE' was 'WAR'. > > are you not indulging in a little modest 'newspeak' Radhika, surely, > you can do better than that? > > warm regards > > Shuddha > > On 18-Sep-08, at 1:46 PM, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > Khurram, > > your post makes me wonder, whether the protesters who claim to be > peaceful, holding sticks, guns and resort to arson and riot should be > garlanded. ? > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From ahmed_shakeb at yahoo.com Sat Sep 20 12:58:15 2008 From: ahmed_shakeb at yahoo.com (shakeb ahmed) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 00:28:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Today's "media circus" at Jamia In-Reply-To: <573914.84677.qm@web51404.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <730109.59261.qm@web58001.mail.re3.yahoo.com> To all the friends. In the wake of the Zakir Nagar Encounter thread a very funny stance being demanded of people who have a simple desire to enquire deeper into the complexity of the whole episode, and hence to make them suddenly feel a guilt that actually does not belong to them, eventually managing in a very subtle way to silence them if possible is that they should attach a coda to all their uncomfortable questions by attesting to "I 'should factor in that an honest cop has died' and I respect him (because he died, and my tv newswallah tells me the number of gallantry awards he won and the number he was about to win)" What I'll say and be very firm about is that I dont know who Inspector Mohan Sharma was and is (strange jingoist portraits of him on TV being now the only source through which I for the first time become familiar with his good work or bad exploits). What is more important in this case for me is that as somebody who lives very close to this ground zero, I am increasing more familiar with the way the inefficiency and incompetence of our humdrum security forces(and their subsequent desperate and maybe very dangerous methods of saving some face!) and hair-brained media would eventually end up being very successful in routing the fragile dignity and self respect of this geographical locality. I am more worried about what motivations these encouncounter specialist, right or wrong, forced or unforced, work under or are made to work under; and very similarly what motivations these young boys (against whom nothing is yet proved and still the case is almost getting shut with a definitive verdict in the larger public imagination), right or wrong, forced or unforced, work under or are made to work under. I think we should be gravely concerned with the fact that the criminal absurdity that accompanies such incidents is left quite unpacked, unprobed, and unaccounted once the shameless larger media footsoldiers run sweating to another more grotesque fare in an attempt to makebelieve their cut into the banal vestiges of reponsible journalism. I categorically refuse to say I respect Inspector Mohan Chand Sharma just as strongly as I say I refuse to disrespect him - very solely for the reason that I dont know him! And all the blah media is feeding about gallantry awards etc...havent we been in knowledge of the decorations that Daya Naik and other encounter specialist have had before thier un-decorating begins. Everybody who is asking the right questions should be encouraged to throw any demanded Apologist Behaviour in the face of the more ill informed tv-paper-net-magazine intellectuals. Shakeb --- On Sat, 9/20/08, Yousuf wrote: > From: Yousuf > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Today's "media circus" at Jamia > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" , rahul_capri at yahoo.com > Cc: "sarai list" , "Peace Initiative" > Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008, 1:02 AM > Friends > I wanted to make a clarification. When I wrote and posted > my message about the media circus (at 8:25 m IST on 19th > September), the news about the police Inspector Mohan Chand > Sharma was not available to me – I saw it only in the > morning. I am saddened by his unfortunate death as much as I > would be on the death of other innocent people affected by > terror attacks. But the inspector’s death would not make > me change much of my message. Please read my mail again: I > did not make a claim about this being a fake encounter – I > was only expressing the public opinion here - which is writ > large if you visit the area. But more importantly I was > making two points: (1) the role our media plays in > strengthening the version of the state and ignoring the > public, and (2) how an area like Batla House has been left > deliberately (by the authorities) to become a breeding > ground for criminals which can be cashed when the time is > ripe. Can anybody deny these two points? > > Yousuf > > > > --- On Sat, 9/20/08, Rahul Asthana > wrote: > > > From: Rahul Asthana > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Today's "media > circus" at Jamia > > To: "Yousuf" , > "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > > Cc: "sarai list" > > > Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008, 6:02 AM > > Did you guys factor in the small detail that a > policeman > > has died?Was it to get more ratings for the > "media > > circus" ? > > http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/sep/19del1.htm > > Mohan Chand Sharma, inspector of the Delhi [Images] > Police > > Special Cell who was critically injured during an > encounter > > with Delhi blasts-linked terrorists, died in a > hospital on > > Friday evening. > > > > "We have lost our best man," Joint > Commissioner > > of Police (Special Cell) Karnal Singh told PTI. > > > > Forty-one-year-old Sharma, a highly decorated officer > who > > received three bullet injuries in his abdomen, thigh > and > > right arm in the gunbattle at Jamia Nagar in South > Delhi, > > succumbed to his injuries at the Holy Family hospital > at 7 > > pm, doctors attending him said. > > > > A recipient of seven gallantry medals, Sharma, who had > led > > the police team against the terrorists wanted in > connection > > with the Delhi and Ahmedabad [Images] blasts, > underwent an > > operation to remove the bullets from his body. > > > > The profusely-bleeding officer was taken to the > hospital. > > --- On Sat, 9/20/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > wrote: > > > > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Today's > "media > > circus" at Jamia > > > To: "Yousuf" > > > Cc: "sarai list" > > > > > Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008, 2:01 AM > > > Dear Yousuf, > > > > > > Many thanks for this post and for sharing your > > thoughts on > > > the 'media > > > circus'. > > > > > > Watching the 'media circus' unfold on > > television, I > > > was appalled at > > > the manner in which the 'spectacle' was > > priming > > > itself up through the > > > day. A channel called 'News 24' for > instance, > > was > > > repeatedly > > > informing us that it 'was the first to > transmit > > > pictures of the > > > encounter' etc, as if it had just won India > yet > > another > > > sharp- > > > shooting gold medal in the Olympics. > > > > > > A thought that did strike me was, "'how > much > > more > > > disrespectful can > > > the blood-lust of this spectacle of a hunt, get > to all > > > those who died > > > in today's 'Encounter' , be they > policemen > > on > > > duty, or 'alleged' > > > terrorists ?" > > > > > > I think we need to give some serious thought to > the > > fact > > > that these > > > days police encounters are actually an extended > part > > of > > > 'Reality > > > TV' (which in any case, the entire genre > should be > > more > > > appropriately > > > called 'Surreality TV'). That seem > scripted > > well in > > > advance. How else > > > (as you so cogently point out) can one explain > the > > sudden > > > appearance > > > of large OB vans, with heavy duty equipment, > battling > > heavy > > > rush hour > > > traffic, in a congested area like Jamia Nagar, > just at > > the > > > 'nick of > > > time'? > > > > > > The TV commentators, throughout the day, referred > to > > what > > > their > > > 'sources' in the Special Cell, or in the > Delhi > > > Police, told them. I > > > wondered to what degree the entire > 'Operation' > > was > > > co-scripted, > > > between these 'sources' and the newsrooms > of > > > Television channels. > > > There seems something almost monotonously > repetitive > > in > > > these > > > situations. A strange feeling of Deja-Vu. > Something > > tells > > > me we have > > > seen this before. Or is it just that I have > watched > > way too > > > much > > > 'reality' ? > > > > > > regards > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 19-Sep-08, at 8:25 PM, Yousuf wrote: > > > > > > > Friends > > > > I have titled this message the “media > > circus”, > > > although I am > > > > actually referring to this morning’s > so-called > > > encounter killing of > > > > two young people referred to as > “terrorists” > > in > > > L-18 Batla House, > > > > Jamia Nagar, by the Delhi police. I call it > media > > > circus because > > > > that’s what I think it really is, like > many > > more > > > such incidents. > > > > > > > > The incident happened in my neigbourhood, > about > > 150 > > > meters from my > > > > house. So I have the opportunity to see how > > things are > > > turning up. > > > > I had gone out of the area for some work > while > > the > > > incident was > > > > taking place around 11 am, but found it > > impossible to > > > reach back > > > > home 2 hours later, because the road for > about 1 > > and a > > > half > > > > kilometer (on both sides) was completely > blocked, > > not > > > by the police > > > > vehicles, but by the parked OB vans of the > > countless > > > TV channels, > > > > some of which I never heard of before. Each > of > > these > > > vehicles had > > > > its generators on, and thick video cables > jetting > > out > > > of them for > > > > several meters to the other end where the > > cameraperson > > > and the > > > > excited anchor were shouting how two > terrorists > > have > > > been killed in > > > > the fierce encounter. Most local people are > > surprised > > > at the speed > > > > with which the TV crews arrived here and in > such > > large > > > number. > > > > Apparently, the Delhi Police had already > told a > > > section of the > > > > press they are going for a raid in Batla > House, > > based > > > > on the suspect Abu Bashir’s tip-off (I > heard > > this > > > from a anchor on > > > > Times NOW channel, although Police chief > Dadwal > > is now > > > denying > > > > there is any link with Abu Bashir), but they > > didn’t > > > obviously say > > > > it was going to be an encounter. Its strange > that > > the > > > local > > > > residents got to know about the incident > only > > after > > > the two people > > > > had been killed – many in fact learnt it > from > > the > > > Aaj-tak channel. > > > > They claim they heard only the police firing > and > > no > > > gunshots from > > > > inside the flat, which the police claim have > > injured > > > two of their > > > > constables. > > > > > > > > Most of you watching news TV in your homes > may > > have > > > already heard > > > > the cacophony of the TV anchors, each trying > to > > be > > > shriller than > > > > the other to prove that the local members of > the > > > Indian Mujahideen > > > > have been killed. They now seem to have > memorized > > > their lines on > > > > this issue well, since they have to repeat > the > > same > > > thing again and > > > > again. The graphics, animated logos, > crawling > > tickers, > > > and dramatic > > > > music/soundtrack to go with such coverage > are > > always > > > ready in the > > > > cans to be used at short notice. A cameraman > > running > > > towards Batla > > > > House is nibbling at a burger while he holds > on > > to a > > > camera in his > > > > other hand. I saw two members of a TV crew > > outside the > > > Holy Family > > > > Hospital (where the injured policemen have > been > > taken) > > > fiercely > > > > fight about which camera angle would look > best > > for a > > > sound byte. > > > > Everything looks as if planned and part of > the > > usual > > > business. The > > > > cops are happily allowing the media to climb > any > > wall > > > to get the > > > > best shot while they beat the local > > > > rickshawpullers to leave the roads clean. > The > > message > > > has got > > > > across loud and clear: we told you – Batla > > House is > > > a haven of > > > > terrorists. > > > > > > > > But many things sound fishy. I’ve been > hearing > > a lot > > > of angry > > > > conversations in the neighborhood: people > are > > asking > > > that if the > > > > police had only planned a simple raid (which > they > > did > > > 2 days ago in > > > > Zakir Nagar and Abul Fazl Enclave too), why > did > > they > > > have to bring > > > > battalions of police and encounter > specialists > > with > > > AK-56 and other > > > > deadly looking guns (that I myself saw) in > > advance. > > > And why is the > > > > media called in even before the residents > are > > told. Of > > > course the > > > > fact the this happens in the month of > Ramzan, on > > a > > > Friday, and near > > > > a large mosque where people were going to > gather > > in > > > large numbers > > > > later for prayers, sounds just too > predictable > > and > > > clichéd for > > > > anyone’s imagination. Some locals claim > that > > the > > > police had been > > > > visiting this place (and that particular > house) > > since > > > last few > > > > days, and the so-called terrorists and their > > weapons > > > were probably > > > > “planted” last night for this encounter. > This > > > claim would obviously > > > > find no takers in the presently > > > > created euphoria (did you see any channel > > showing a > > > sound byte to > > > > this affect?) I didn’t find a single local > > resident > > > who is not fed > > > > up with this oft-repeated image of Jamia > Nagar as > > > harboring > > > > terrorists. But none of the channels I saw > aired > > the > > > public angst > > > > against their portrayal. > > > > > > > > To be honest, one shouldn’t deny that the > Batla > > > House area has some > > > > criminal and anti-social elements, just as > Darya > > Ganj > > > or Shahadra > > > > or Govindpuri would have. But most local > > residents > > > believe that for > > > > Jamia to become a haven of such criminal > > elements, the > > > local police > > > > and land-mafia are equally responsible. > Jamia > > area is > > > one of the > > > > rare localities of Delhi where the rule of > law > > > doesn’t apply in > > > > most spheres. The land mafia openly indulges > in > > > illegal > > > > construction; no rules of traffic apply > here, the > > > condition of > > > > civic amenities is abysmal. Illegal shops, > > factories > > > (many with > > > > child labour) and businesses operate here > > actively > > > with police > > > > connivance. The local politicians (MLA, > > councilors) > > > are actually > > > > part of the problem rather than the > solution. > > There is > > > a full-scale > > > > illegal ISBT (bus stand) running in Batla > > House’s > > > backyard to bring > > > > hundreds of migrants everyday from small > towns of > > UP > > > (you can see > > > > the police openly accepting bribe from its > > > > operators any day). > > > > > > > > There is no question of sealing whatever the > heck > > > business you may > > > > run here, and most places stink with heaps > of > > garbage > > > everywhere. > > > > There are no RWAs or citizen’s initiatives > to > > > discuss the problems. > > > > It is truly a manufactured ghetto of Delhi > – > > why > > > don’t all these > > > > problems happen in Lajpat Nagar or Kalkaji? > I am > > > positive that the > > > > authorities are aware that criminals (or > what > > they > > > call terrorists) > > > > exist here. But they deliberately allow them > to > > thrive > > > here – never > > > > to be touched in the normal/peaceful times > – > > keep > > > them for the > > > > right time. It is as if Batla House is a > > laboratory or > > > breeding > > > > ground where things are allowed to grow by > > providing > > > all the > > > > required ingredients and safety. The fruits > are > > > plucked only when > > > > they are ripe (or required). So today, they > > simply > > > came to gather > > > > the fruit they had sown, and made a big > > exhibition of > > > it by calling > > > > the media. The local people, frightened that > the > > next > > > encounter may > > > > happen in their house, simply > > > > squirm and hide in their personal ghettos. > > > > > > > > In all this, a big responsibility lies with > the > > media, > > > and I am yet > > > > to come across bold and honest reporters who > are > > ready > > > to go beyond > > > > the obvious and investigate the truth – > not > > simply > > > repeat what is > > > > told to them by the authorities or their > channel > > > bosses. > > > > > > > > Yousuf Saeed > > > > September 19, 2008 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on > media and > > the > > > city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > > Raqs Media Collective > > > shuddha at sarai.net > > > www.sarai.net > > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the > > city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the > > subject > > > header. > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From lalitambardar at hotmail.com Sat Sep 20 13:27:18 2008 From: lalitambardar at hotmail.com (Lalit Ambardar) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 07:57:18 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0809191232u65c82564lee7992d112a4cb6@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690809182021u4fb74001g9064d3fa5b8b2c6f@mail.gmail.com> <169ff67c0809190317o72d3ee9l3b502a73561d1372@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809190414g6ce8861eq441fa7d5d609bd32@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809191232u65c82564lee7992d112a4cb6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Aarti, You are absolutely right and that is why we all need to believe in our nation, our cultural heritage above all the ‘law of the land’. It wasn’t the case of ‘no evidence’ but ‘insufficient evidence’ & we all respect the judicial verdict- ‘released’ even though on ‘technical grounds’ only. You mentioned about that souvenir ‘stone, from Antarctica. That is so touching. Look this is what it is. I love my Kashmir- my land- the land of my birth- the land of my ancestors. I am connected with it & yet I am being deprived of my continued existence there just because of my faith & that I symbolise Indian presence in the valley. And you know, I don’t just miss only the lakes & mountains of the place, I also miss the filth & the muck & the slush …… as I belong…to ..it….. ( ….it is not so easy to say that in the ‘past tense’ even though almost two decades have passed by since I last experienced the joy of walking bare feet in that slush….) ………… And for those who seek ‘azadi bara e Islam’ (freedom through Islam) ‘land’ itself is definitely not paramount. LA ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 01:02:06 +0530From: aarti.sethi at gmail.comTo: lalitambardar at hotmail.comSubject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticisedCC: radhikarajen at vsnl.net; reader-list at sarai.net Dear Lalit,Yes he was released on "technical" grounds. The "technical" grounds that the law acquits people on, namely on the utter lack of any evidence linking him to the parliament attack. I know the fact that someone is innocent is a flimsy excuse in your book because it would be much better to hang him nonetheless and "salve the conscience of the nation", however you will be surprised to know that evidence of culpability is actually pretty central to the judicial process. Unfortunately, it is not simply enough for you to believe that Geelani was behind the attack, it has to be proved. It has not been proved. There is no evidence at all.I have said this before on this list, and I am saying it again - terror, whether by agents acting against the state and terror by the state are mirrors of each other. Monstrous shadows that seemingly confront each other in a relationship of tense alterity. And who is to say which is which and who is whom?In the times in which we live we will be asked again and again to suspend our sense of justice, of ethical responsibility in the name of national security, of fighting terror. To justify everything - fake encounters, arrest without warrants, torture, detention on suspicion, rape - so that we may all be safe. Safe from what? We are producing the ghosts that haunt us.bestAarti On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 6:45 PM, Lalit Ambardar wrote: By the way, this 'guy' was released on 'technical grounds' only. Even one of that 'celebrity' senior most criminal lawyers could not get him relieved of this tag. And yet, he continues with his diatribe against India. And for these 'mobile citizens' they appear to be a confused lot. Here, they espouse the cause of the pan Islamism driven secessionism in Kashmir & lo, there they raise an issue on the relationship between the 'land' & 'the nation'. They have no quarrel with those who thump the 'very land' in kashmir with their heals ranting 'ragda'....'ragda' implying 'crush India'. How ironic . Those who do not want to be part of this nation are welcome to opt for the 'land of the pure' & it quite fits in to the mobile citizens' theory- you could still love the land (even if one ignores that stupid 'ragda'....'ragda' thumping....???... ) yet need not posses it.Regards allLA p s : Opposite of 'nation state' can only be 'anarchy' & 'anarchy' can only lead to 'mayhem' that is so visible in Kashmir since 1989-90. > Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 16:45:02 +0500> From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net> To: aarti.sethi at gmail.com> CC: reader-list at sarai.net > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised> > Aarti, > > we seem to have carried forward of the concept of freedom and rights too far without realising to be free, we have some responsibility also to the nation and society that has bestowed upon us the freedom and rights. in fact the rights have the other side of the coin, that is duties. Without duties to the society, exercising only rights is like license to behave as any individual wants, a license to tamper the rights of others in society, it is license to be irrelevant in a society which has given rights to individuals to be free.> > A Roy, after winning a booker prize and some dollars can not be exercising her rights without the responsibilty to the society in which she lives. If she declares herself as walking and talking republic then she has every right to say so, but her safety then, solely on her, not on the republic of India as she misbehaves in the society that she lives in> > A Geelani when he invokes his right of feee expression, and as activist of human rights, he has to be aware of all humans in society when he supports the terror in jamia nagar. When he stores the ground floor plan of parliament, he has to be aware that, he is neither an architect nor a civil engineer and his act can help his terrorist friends. A court may acquit him of the charges, but citizens look at him with certain apprehension, because what business he has not to inform of the terror activities that go on in his neighbourhood. ? Every citizen is police without uniform for the society, every police is citizen with uniform. When ghettos of muslims sheltor, defend the terror accused, the citizens of the nation feel sorry for ntire community and look with disdain.> > ----- Original Message -----> From: Aarti Sethi > Date: Friday, September 19, 2008 4:45 pm> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised> To: Nazneen Anand Shamsi , sarai list > > > Dear Nazneen,> > > > > > I have no quarrel with love for land at all. And read my post > > again. I used> > a specific phrase, I said, 'territorial lust for land'. Can you > > love land> > without possessing it? That is the question.> > > > How exactly do you build a relationship with land with which you > > have no> > personal history of settlement or usage? Now obviously this is > > both an> > abstract and a concrete question. I have never been to Kashmir, > > does this> > mean I cannot have any relationship to it? Of course not! The > > question is> > what kind of relationship? When I was one year old my father went > > on a> > voyage to Antarctica. One of my most favourite memories of > > childhood is> > seeing the slides he brought back of the incredible snowscapes and ice> > sheets, and a rock which lay in a corner of our house for many years.> > Apparently it was part of a meteor which smashed into the earth > > some million> > years ago. Antarctica is part of no country. Its land is part of > > the common> > heritage of humanity, for all to build relationships with. As far > > as I am> > concerned this is the only productive, ethical and creative way to > > think of> > land.> > > > The trouble is being an Indian citizen gives me fictional > > 'ownership' over> > the entire territory of India. As if I have some special > > entitlement to the> > square miles that are part of the map. But which land, whose land > > and whose> > love? Currently there are struggles going on in this country - in > > singur, in> > nandigram, in niyamgiri, to name only three sites - where people > > are asking> > this question. Communities it seems have no right to their own > > land in the> > name of "development". And this is fine by your logic is it not? > > Because the> > development of India means that everyone has an entitlement. All > > land is the> > property of the state. When did this come to pass? Can we ask these> > questions? Or immediately "pills" must be taken to stamp out these > > viruses?Maybe your love for India entitles you to such a claim, I > > do not feel this> > entitlement. And in my opinion this sort of entitlement is where > > violence is> > born. Can you see the quagmire we are in when we begin to collapse > > lovefor/of land and territorial entitlement? They are not the same > > thing.> > What does cheering for the Indian cricket team have to do with the > > area per> > square miles of India? Believe me, I am not being facetious at > > all. The only> > reason this sounds idiotic is because we take for granted the > > logic of the> > modern nation state which consists of a sovereign entity for a > > territorialunit, with a standing army to defend this territory. > > This is the first> > lesson in every graduate political science lecture. And you are > > right, the> > nation state is a fragile concept. So maybe we need to ask > > ourselves whether> > this is not causing more trouble than it is worth...> > > > Regarding archives and fiction, this is a longer discussion and > > tangentialto the point I was making. Of course we may discuss it > > if you wish. But just> > to clarify what I was saying, I can claim the heritage of the > > whole world as> > my own. There is an old humanist saying "the world is my home" and > > i think> > there is something of tremendous value here. But there are several > > ways in> > which history and heritage can be claimed. One way seems to be > > logic of> > subsuming everything, all forms of life and love and affection > > into the> > rubric of the nation and to stamp out violently any persons or > > forms of life> > which fall out of this. I am afraid this is too violent and boring > > for me.> > > > regards> > Aarti> > > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 3:47 PM, Nazneen Anand Shamsi <> > nazoshmasi at googlemail.com> wrote:> > > > > Dear Aarti,> > >> > > Please explain how many years constitute a civilization? For > > that matter,> > > please elucidate the relationship between temporal continuity > > and a concept,> > > if any? Why should 'pride in being Indian' exclude love for > > land? As far as> > > history books are concerned, I would ask, who is to decide which > > fiction of> > > the archives is valid? Nation state is a fragile concept, and > > whats wrong> > > in subduing those who make it more vulnerable? To not to do so > > is I think> > > not allow one to take a pill if one is afflicted by a minor > > virus and hope> > > that the body will cope on its own...it is ridiculous isn't it?> > >> > > Regards> > >> > > Nazo> > >> > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 9:39 AM, Aarti Sethi > > wrote:>> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > The signatories assert that "Kashmir is an inalienable > > element of> > >> India's> > >> > civilisational identity and symbolises the fundamental > > principles on> > >> which> > >> > the modern Indian state has been built." Terming national > > will as a> > >> > critical> > >> > component of state power, they felt that "devious > > adversaries" have> > >> > resorted> > >> > to psychological warfare in order to break the national will.> > >>> > >>> > >> What is India's 'civilizational identity'? Does 60 years > > constitute a> > >> 'civilization'? The point is, that to even raise this question is> > >> "sedition". As if those who ask this question are somehow naive > > deluded>> juvile people. Does 'pride in being Indian', whatever > > that is, have to be> > >> coupled with a territorial lust for land? I don't think so. Our> > >> imaginations> > >> and affections surely encompass more than the nation. And in > > fact they do,> > >> that is my point. Read any history book taught in school. We > > are so> > >> willing> > >> so claim 2,000 years of history as 'Indian history', but that > > history>> becomes 'Indian history' only 60 years ago. The march of > > history does not> > >> cut some straight and true swath from Ashoka to Nehru, as if > > 2,000 years> > >> of> > >> history is the long unfolding of the story of the 'Indian > > nation'. Why is> > >> this so scary to concieve is what I don't understand.> > >>> > >> Nations are not god-given entities. They are historically > > produced units> > >> of> > >> social organisation. Which is not to say they are of no value > > or that they> > >> have never played a progressive role. Or that we must have no > > investment>> in> > >> them. But its alright to question and query the nation. There > > is nothing> > >> divine about it. Its not 'immoral'. People who are asking these > > questions>> are not 'bad people', 'enemies of India'.> > >> People who are asking today questions about Kashmir's future > > and its> > >> relationship with India are asking us to think deeply and hard > > about how> > >> India defines her/its identity. This is a good question, it > > would help us> > >> all to spend some time on it. It is possible to think > > creatively at this> > >> moment about the very many ways in which Kashmir can relate to > > India.>> There> > >> has been some discussion of those ways on this list itself. > > Various kinds> > >> of> > >> autonomy arrangements, of porous borders, many things can be > > thought>> through. But to deign all such conversations as > > "seditious" is no way to> > >> go> > >> anywhere.> > >>> > >> best> > >> A> > >> _________________________________________> > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > >> Critiques & Collaborations> > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > >> subscribe in the subject header.> > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > >> List archive: > > >>> > >> > >> > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-> > list > > List archive: > > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Hottest news and in-depth analysis that goes beyond the headlines. Only on MSN News Check it out! _________________________________________________________________ Want to explore the world? Visit MSN Travel for the best deals. http://in.msn.com/coxandkings From shuddha at sarai.net Sat Sep 20 14:10:04 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 14:10:04 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The updated list of killings by the firing of armedforces In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70809192333r7a31fcdbh924ec652712fd450@mail.gmail.com> References: <921672.85527.qm@web31813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <600E7EFF-4294-4CCA-9E12-7F2B466F02A8@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70809192333r7a31fcdbh924ec652712fd450@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <618230AD-838B-4B9B-BCF2-2D91427A19C0@sarai.net> Pawan, I don't treat news of death as reasons for laughter, no matter who dies. The Col. Thomas who died in Kashmir did not die at the hands of the crowds on the streets of Kashmir. He died while on an operation, in combat, exactly as an insurgent dies in combat, while on an operation. As one armed man taken out by other armed men. See - http://www.hindu.com/2008/08/24/stories/2008082457840100.htm The report says - "Col. Thomas was killed as he led a quick reaction team from 45 Rashtriya Rifles in the dense forests of Macchal sector, near the Line of Control. His team shot down six militants and he was one of the four Indian soldiers who were killed in the battle." I regret all such deaths, whether they be of Col. Jojan Thomas, or Mohan Chand Sharma, or of a named or nameless insurgent, and consider them to be lives wasted in a senseless war. The only way to stop deaths like these is to stop this war. I want this war to end. The two policemen who died in Jammu happened to be lynched by the crowds on the streets of Jammu. They were not killed by militants in dense forests. The mob killed because it had a sense that it could act with impunity. They were not acting in self defence either. In this case, the mob was not retaliating for violence inflicted upon it. See - http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/PoliticsNation/ Cops_lynched_rail_track_uprooted_in_Jammu/articleshow/3331088.cms The report says - "Mobs in Jammu lynched two cops to death and uprooted a long stretch of the Jammu-Pathankote railway track." One can compare militants with militants and crowds of protestors, with crowds of protestors And when you do, you realize (if you are not wearing the kind of blinkers that make you think of some deaths as more important than others) the important difference that I was trying to point out between two kinds of 'peaceful protestors', and the responses to them by the state in Jammu, and in Kashmir. Try and cultivate a less vicious sense of humour. Shuddha On 20-Sep-08, at 12:03 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > lol......funniest post ever. > How soon we have forgotten Col. Thomas who was killed in Kashmir. > and then > the statement People in Kashmir threw stones, like angry crowds do > everywhere in the world. > > lol........ > > What an Idea Sirrr Jee. > > Pawan > > > > On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 1:53 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > wrote: > >> Dear Radhika, >> >> Thank you for your observations on Khurram's posting. >> >> Well, in this case some "protesters who claim to be peaceful, >> holding sticks, guns and resort to arson and riot" were "garlanded." >> I am referring to the ones in Jammu. You will recall, that not a >> single policeman or soldier or paramilitary personnel were killed in >> Kashmir. But two policemen did die in Jammu, and some truck drivers >> assaulted by the 'peaceful' protestors in Jammu also succmbed, I >> suppose in your opinion, "peacefully" from their injuries. Gujjar >> huts were burnt in acts of "peaceful" arson. The crowds in Kashmir >> who were fired upon, 50 of whom were killed at the last count, did >> not bear weapons. We all saw the television pictures. They threw >> stones, like angry crowds do everywhere in the world. But they did >> not kill policemen. >> >> The government did not garland these protestors, it clamped >> indefinite curfews and shot at them to kill. One the other hand it >> did garland the protestors on the other side of the Banihal pass. it >> held some leaders under the Public Safety Act, and then released >> them. It counducted 'negotiations' with the leaders of the peaceful >> protests in Jammu and garlanded them with a sham 'accord'. All these >> prove that if you happen to belong to the right place, sport the >> right kind of name, then even if your 'peaceful' protest turns >> occasionally violent, you can still be 'garlanded' as you (in this >> case) rightly point out. >> >> After all, we live in the country whose government called its nuclear >> weapons tests in 1974, 'peaceful implosions'. >> >> In the novel, '1984' George Orwell, whom I have referred to in an >> earlier posting, wrote about how in the language perfected by >> fictional regime that he was decribing, (newspeak) 'PEACE' was 'WAR'. >> >> are you not indulging in a little modest 'newspeak' Radhika, surely, >> you can do better than that? >> >> warm regards >> >> Shuddha >> >> On 18-Sep-08, at 1:46 PM, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: >> Khurram, >> >> your post makes me wonder, whether the protesters who claim to be >> peaceful, holding sticks, guns and resort to arson and riot should be >> garlanded. ? >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Sat Sep 20 14:13:16 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 13:43:16 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] The updated list of killings by the firing ofarmedforces In-Reply-To: <600E7EFF-4294-4CCA-9E12-7F2B466F02A8@sarai.net> References: <921672.85527.qm@web31813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <600E7EFF-4294-4CCA-9E12-7F2B466F02A8@sarai.net> Message-ID: Dear Shuddha, the entire issue of "giving" land for yatris and "taking it back was a ploy by the then CM of Kashmir state, the motive is clear for all to see. Appeasement to hindus in rest of India, by the feel of the sentiment that oldest party is facilitating the hindus and the yathra. The benefits would have been immense to Congress to boast about "giving" lands to yathris. In actual practise, this land would have gone to hangers on of the madam, to construct the yathrinivas, swindle the yathris of the exorbitant room rents. What every citizen has overlooked is the fact that for decades the kashimri economy which wholly depends on toursim, devotional yathra, has been enabled by the kasmiri citizens, mostly muslims because they are the citizens of that landscape. Congress which for the first time held reins of governance thanks to a coalition with hizb faction of soft face, Mehbooba mufti and her father did not expect the capablity of mehbooba to use this very tool to alienate the votes in Kashmir away from Congress. Gulam, who was cozily in Delhi all these years with Rajyasabha membership is far removed from ground reality. As to garlands to those in jammu, you have a lopsided opinion, which I respect, but lives were lost on emotive issue of this land and its "give " and take" by suicides, the truckdrivers were beaten up by muftis' goons and mehboobas henchmen, that I have no hesitation to confirm, as per my sources. The issue was to highlight the "economic blockade to muslims of Kashmir to make an emotional issue that hits hard. None has been garlanded by the police or the governance but the governor, retired , tired dud scud, is unfit to be there, but thanks to loyalty and service to the first family he is there to carry forward the inhuman exercise of divide and rule for Sonia, the mafiosi. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008 1:55 am Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The updated list of killings by the firing ofarmedforces To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net Cc: khurramparvez at yahoo.com, SARAI > Dear Radhika, > > Thank you for your observations on Khurram's posting. > > Well, in this case some "protesters who claim to be peaceful, > holding sticks, guns and resort to arson and riot" were > "garlanded." > I am referring to the ones in Jammu. You will recall, that not a > single policeman or soldier or paramilitary personnel were killed > in > Kashmir. But two policemen did die in Jammu, and some truck > drivers > assaulted by the 'peaceful' protestors in Jammu also succmbed, I > suppose in your opinion, "peacefully" from their injuries. Gujjar > > huts were burnt in acts of "peaceful" arson. The crowds in Kashmir > > who were fired upon, 50 of whom were killed at the last count, did > > not bear weapons. We all saw the television pictures. They threw > stones, like angry crowds do everywhere in the world. But they did > > not kill policemen. > > The government did not garland these protestors, it clamped > indefinite curfews and shot at them to kill. One the other hand it > > did garland the protestors on the other side of the Banihal pass. > it > held some leaders under the Public Safety Act, and then released > them. It counducted 'negotiations' with the leaders of the > peaceful > protests in Jammu and garlanded them with a sham 'accord'. All > these > prove that if you happen to belong to the right place, sport the > right kind of name, then even if your 'peaceful' protest turns > occasionally violent, you can still be 'garlanded' as you (in this > > case) rightly point out. > > After all, we live in the country whose government called its > nuclear > weapons tests in 1974, 'peaceful implosions'. > > In the novel, '1984' George Orwell, whom I have referred to in an > earlier posting, wrote about how in the language perfected by > fictional regime that he was decribing, (newspeak) 'PEACE' was 'WAR'. > > are you not indulging in a little modest 'newspeak' Radhika, > surely, > you can do better than that? > > warm regards > > Shuddha > > On 18-Sep-08, at 1:46 PM, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > Khurram, > > your post makes me wonder, whether the protesters who claim to > be > peaceful, holding sticks, guns and resort to arson and riot should > be > garlanded. ? > > > > From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Sat Sep 20 14:15:18 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 13:45:18 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] The updated list of killings by the firing ofarmedforces In-Reply-To: <600E7EFF-4294-4CCA-9E12-7F2B466F02A8@sarai.net> References: <921672.85527.qm@web31813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <600E7EFF-4294-4CCA-9E12-7F2B466F02A8@sarai.net> Message-ID: Shuudha, angry crowds being encouraged to throw stones is indeed very peaceful protest.? We did see the "crowds " in Srinagar piling up stones well in advance, these crowds were paid crowds of separatists, but stones were used by all the peaceful protesters. ! Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008 1:55 am Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The updated list of killings by the firing ofarmedforces To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net Cc: khurramparvez at yahoo.com, SARAI > Dear Radhika, > > Thank you for your observations on Khurram's posting. > > Well, in this case some "protesters who claim to be peaceful, > holding sticks, guns and resort to arson and riot" were > "garlanded." > I am referring to the ones in Jammu. You will recall, that not a > single policeman or soldier or paramilitary personnel were killed > in > Kashmir. But two policemen did die in Jammu, and some truck > drivers > assaulted by the 'peaceful' protestors in Jammu also succmbed, I > suppose in your opinion, "peacefully" from their injuries. Gujjar > > huts were burnt in acts of "peaceful" arson. The crowds in Kashmir > > who were fired upon, 50 of whom were killed at the last count, did > > not bear weapons. We all saw the television pictures. They threw > stones, like angry crowds do everywhere in the world. But they did > > not kill policemen. > > The government did not garland these protestors, it clamped > indefinite curfews and shot at them to kill. One the other hand it > > did garland the protestors on the other side of the Banihal pass. > it > held some leaders under the Public Safety Act, and then released > them. It counducted 'negotiations' with the leaders of the > peaceful > protests in Jammu and garlanded them with a sham 'accord'. All > these > prove that if you happen to belong to the right place, sport the > right kind of name, then even if your 'peaceful' protest turns > occasionally violent, you can still be 'garlanded' as you (in this > > case) rightly point out. > > After all, we live in the country whose government called its > nuclear > weapons tests in 1974, 'peaceful implosions'. > > In the novel, '1984' George Orwell, whom I have referred to in an > earlier posting, wrote about how in the language perfected by > fictional regime that he was decribing, (newspeak) 'PEACE' was 'WAR'. > > are you not indulging in a little modest 'newspeak' Radhika, > surely, > you can do better than that? > > warm regards > > Shuddha > > On 18-Sep-08, at 1:46 PM, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > Khurram, > > your post makes me wonder, whether the protesters who claim to > be > peaceful, holding sticks, guns and resort to arson and riot should > be > garlanded. ? > > > > From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Sat Sep 20 14:26:59 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 13:56:59 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0809191232u65c82564lee7992d112a4cb6@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690809182021u4fb74001g9064d3fa5b8b2c6f@mail.gmail.com> <"169 ff67c0809190317o72d3ee9l3b502a73561d1372"@mail.gmail.com> <"48c2916d0809190414 g6ce8861eq441fa7d5d609bd32"@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809191232u65c82564lee7992d112a4cb6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Aarti, in the incident of inquiry and then shoot out at police officer, then the action of self defence ending in killing of the terror accused, is seen by all in the nation. Any right thinking citizen would have also noticed that to enter jamianagar, the lawkeepers can not go in uniform. They have to go only in mufti even for inquiry. Subsequent develpments of large force of RAF and additional police presence shows the community in poor light in so far as this community is law unto themselves. I have lived in jamia nagar larn the finer aspects of religion of islam, for my assignment abroad, and I know for sure, this jamianagar has dirty underbelly of the community which has the lots of sex workers from Bihar, UP and even bangaldesh. It has car thieves, anti-social elements and also rich leaders who arrange the man/woman power for shouting slogans for the party which pays for the work. If mother of all sacrifices has an occassion to showcase her sacrifice the slogan shouters are from jamianagar. Worst, law keepers can not get any credible information of terror infested, indoctrined brains from this area, because the residents feel they have islamic rue there, not indian constitution, for duties to the nation. Only for rights they have to invoke the constitution, not for duties. Every laws are broken, bent in jamia nagar, building laws are not existing, police is seen as "hindu" plice, officials are "hindu officials. Well If mahatma had known all this, he definitely would not have agreed for the stay of these in India for harmonious living.! All said and done, there are few good muslims there in jamia nagar, who have tolerent view, but alas, they are even in majority are scared of the geelanis and madams who have brothels running these with the help of goons of islam. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Aarti Sethi Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008 1:02 am Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised To: Lalit Ambardar Cc: radhikarajen at vsnl.net, sarai list > Dear Lalit, > > Yes he was released on "technical" grounds. The "technical" > grounds that the > law acquits people on, namely on the utter lack of any evidence > linking him > to the parliament attack. I know the fact that someone is innocent > is a > flimsy excuse in your book because it would be much better to hang him > nonetheless and "salve the conscience of the nation", however you > will be > surprised to know that evidence of culpability is actually pretty > central to > the judicial process. Unfortunately, it is not simply enough for > you to > believe that Geelani was behind the attack, it has to be proved. > It has not > been proved. There is no evidence at all. > > I have said this before on this list, and I am saying it again - > terror,whether by agents acting against the state and terror by > the state are > mirrors of each other. Monstrous shadows that seemingly confront > each other > in a relationship of tense alterity. And who is to say which is > which and > who is whom? > > In the times in which we live we will be asked again and again to > suspendour sense of justice, of ethical responsibility in the name > of national > security, of fighting terror. To justify everything - fake encounters, > arrest without warrants, torture, detention on suspicion, rape - > so that we > may all be safe. Safe from what? We are producing the ghosts that > haunt us. > > best > Aarti > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 6:45 PM, Lalit Ambardar > wrote: > > > By the way, this 'guy' was released on 'technical grounds' > only. Even one > > of that 'celebrity' senior most criminal lawyers could not get > him relieved > > of this tag. And yet, he continues with his diatribe against India. > > > > And for these 'mobile citizens' they appear to be a confused > lot. Here, > > they espouse the cause of the pan Islamism driven secessionism > in Kashmir & > > lo, there they raise an issue on the relationship between the > 'land' & 'the > > nation'. They have no quarrel with those who thump the 'very > land' in > > kashmir with their heals ranting 'ragda'....'ragda' implying > 'crush India'. > > How ironic . Those who do not want to be part of this nation are > welcome to > > opt for the 'land of the pure' & it quite fits in to the mobile > citizens'> theory- you could still love the land (even if one > ignores that > > stupid 'ragda'....'ragda' thumping....???... ) yet need not > posses it. > > Regards all > > LA > > p s : Opposite of 'nation state' can only be 'anarchy' & > 'anarchy' can > > only lead to 'mayhem' that is so visible in > > Kashmir since 1989-90. > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 16:45:02 +0500 > > > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > > To: aarti.sethi at gmail.com > > > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir > criticised> > > > > Aarti, > > > > > > we seem to have carried forward of the concept of freedom and > rights too > > far without realising to be free, we have some responsibility > also to the > > nation and society that has bestowed upon us the freedom and > rights. in fact > > the rights have the other side of the coin, that is duties. > Without duties > > to the society, exercising only rights is like license to behave > as any > > individual wants, a license to tamper the rights of others in > society, it is > > license to be irrelevant in a society which has given rights to > individuals> to be free. > > > > > > A Roy, after winning a booker prize and some dollars can not be > > exercising her rights without the responsibilty to the society > in which she > > lives. If she declares herself as walking and talking republic > then she has > > every right to say so, but her safety then, solely on her, not > on the > > republic of India as she misbehaves in the society that she > lives in > > > > > > A Geelani when he invokes his right of feee expression, and as > activist> of human rights, he has to be aware of all humans in > society when he > > supports the terror in jamia nagar. When he stores the ground > floor plan of > > parliament, he has to be aware that, he is neither an architect > nor a civil > > engineer and his act can help his terrorist friends. A court may > acquit him > > of the charges, but citizens look at him with certain > apprehension, because > > what business he has not to inform of the terror activities that > go on in > > his neighbourhood. ? Every citizen is police without uniform for the > > society, every police is citizen with uniform. When ghettos of > muslims> sheltor, defend the terror accused, the citizens of the > nation feel sorry > > for ntire community and look with disdain. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Aarti Sethi > > > Date: Friday, September 19, 2008 4:45 pm > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir > criticised> > To: Nazneen Anand Shamsi > , sarai list < > > reader-list at sarai.net> > > > > > > > Dear Nazneen, > > > > > > > > > > > > I have no quarrel with love for land at all. And read my post > > > > again. I used > > > > a specific phrase, I said, 'territorial lust for land'. Can you > > > > love land > > > > without possessing it? That is the question. > > > > > > > > How exactly do you build a relationship with land with which you > > > > have no > > > > personal history of settlement or usage? Now obviously this is > > > > both an > > > > abstract and a concrete question. I have never been to Kashmir, > > > > does this > > > > mean I cannot have any relationship to it? Of course not! The > > > > question is > > > > what kind of relationship? When I was one year old my father > went> > > on a > > > > voyage to Antarctica. One of my most favourite memories of > > > > childhood is > > > > seeing the slides he brought back of the incredible > snowscapes and ice > > > > sheets, and a rock which lay in a corner of our house for > many years. > > > > Apparently it was part of a meteor which smashed into the earth > > > > some million > > > > years ago. Antarctica is part of no country. Its land is > part of > > > > the common > > > > heritage of humanity, for all to build relationships with. > As far > > > > as I am > > > > concerned this is the only productive, ethical and creative > way to > > > > think of > > > > land. > > > > > > > > The trouble is being an Indian citizen gives me fictional > > > > 'ownership' over > > > > the entire territory of India. As if I have some special > > > > entitlement to the > > > > square miles that are part of the map. But which land, whose > land> > > and whose > > > > love? Currently there are struggles going on in this country > - in > > > > singur, in > > > > nandigram, in niyamgiri, to name only three sites - where people > > > > are asking > > > > this question. Communities it seems have no right to their own > > > > land in the > > > > name of "development". And this is fine by your logic is it not? > > > > Because the > > > > development of India means that everyone has an entitlement. All > > > > land is the > > > > property of the state. When did this come to pass? Can we > ask these > > > > questions? Or immediately "pills" must be taken to stamp out > these> > > viruses?Maybe your love for India entitles you to such > a claim, I > > > > do not feel this > > > > entitlement. And in my opinion this sort of entitlement is where > > > > violence is > > > > born. Can you see the quagmire we are in when we begin to > collapse> > > lovefor/of land and territorial entitlement? They > are not the same > > > > thing. > > > > What does cheering for the Indian cricket team have to do > with the > > > > area per > > > > square miles of India? Believe me, I am not being facetious at > > > > all. The only > > > > reason this sounds idiotic is because we take for granted the > > > > logic of the > > > > modern nation state which consists of a sovereign entity for a > > > > territorialunit, with a standing army to defend this territory. > > > > This is the first > > > > lesson in every graduate political science lecture. And you are > > > > right, the > > > > nation state is a fragile concept. So maybe we need to ask > > > > ourselves whether > > > > this is not causing more trouble than it is worth... > > > > > > > > Regarding archives and fiction, this is a longer discussion and > > > > tangentialto the point I was making. Of course we may > discuss it > > > > if you wish. But just > > > > to clarify what I was saying, I can claim the heritage of the > > > > whole world as > > > > my own. There is an old humanist saying "the world is my > home" and > > > > i think > > > > there is something of tremendous value here. But there are > several> > > ways in > > > > which history and heritage can be claimed. One way seems to be > > > > logic of > > > > subsuming everything, all forms of life and love and affection > > > > into the > > > > rubric of the nation and to stamp out violently any persons or > > > > forms of life > > > > which fall out of this. I am afraid this is too violent and > boring> > > for me. > > > > > > > > regards > > > > Aarti > > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 3:47 PM, Nazneen Anand Shamsi < > > > > nazoshmasi at googlemail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Dear Aarti, > > > > > > > > > > Please explain how many years constitute a civilization? For > > > > that matter, > > > > > please elucidate the relationship between temporal continuity > > > > and a concept, > > > > > if any? Why should 'pride in being Indian' exclude love for > > > > land? As far as > > > > > history books are concerned, I would ask, who is to decide > which> > > fiction of > > > > > the archives is valid? Nation state is a fragile concept, and > > > > whats wrong > > > > > in subduing those who make it more vulnerable? To not to > do so > > > > is I think > > > > > not allow one to take a pill if one is afflicted by a minor > > > > virus and hope > > > > > that the body will cope on its own...it is ridiculous > isn't it? > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > Nazo > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 9:39 AM, Aarti Sethi > > > > wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > The signatories assert that "Kashmir is an inalienable > > > > element of > > > > >> India's > > > > >> > civilisational identity and symbolises the fundamental > > > > principles on > > > > >> which > > > > >> > the modern Indian state has been built." Terming national > > > > will as a > > > > >> > critical > > > > >> > component of state power, they felt that "devious > > > > adversaries" have > > > > >> > resorted > > > > >> > to psychological warfare in order to break the national > will.> > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> What is India's 'civilizational identity'? Does 60 years > > > > constitute a > > > > >> 'civilization'? The point is, that to even raise this > question is > > > > >> "sedition". As if those who ask this question are somehow > naive> > > deluded>> juvile people. Does 'pride in being Indian', > whatever> > > that is, have to be > > > > >> coupled with a territorial lust for land? I don't think > so. Our > > > > >> imaginations > > > > >> and affections surely encompass more than the nation. And in > > > > fact they do, > > > > >> that is my point. Read any history book taught in school. We > > > > are so > > > > >> willing > > > > >> so claim 2,000 years of history as 'Indian history', but that > > > > history>> becomes 'Indian history' only 60 years ago. The > march of > > > > history does not > > > > >> cut some straight and true swath from Ashoka to Nehru, as if > > > > 2,000 years > > > > >> of > > > > >> history is the long unfolding of the story of the 'Indian > > > > nation'. Why is > > > > >> this so scary to concieve is what I don't understand. > > > > >> > > > > >> Nations are not god-given entities. They are historically > > > > produced units > > > > >> of > > > > >> social organisation. Which is not to say they are of no value > > > > or that they > > > > >> have never played a progressive role. Or that we must > have no > > > > investment>> in > > > > >> them. But its alright to question and query the nation. There > > > > is nothing > > > > >> divine about it. Its not 'immoral'. People who are asking > these> > > questions>> are not 'bad people', 'enemies of India'. > > > > >> People who are asking today questions about Kashmir's future > > > > and its > > > > >> relationship with India are asking us to think deeply and > hard> > > about how > > > > >> India defines her/its identity. This is a good question, it > > > > would help us > > > > >> all to spend some time on it. It is possible to think > > > > creatively at this > > > > >> moment about the very many ways in which Kashmir can > relate to > > > > India.>> There > > > > >> has been some discussion of those ways on this list itself. > > > > Various kinds > > > > >> of > > > > >> autonomy arrangements, of porous borders, many things can be > > > > thought>> through. But to deign all such conversations as > > > > "seditious" is no way to > > > > >> go > > > > >> anywhere. > > > > >> > > > > >> best > > > > >> A > > > > >> _________________________________________ > > > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > request at sarai.net with > > > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > > > >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > >> List archive: > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with> > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > > list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list> > List archive: > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Hottest news and in-depth analysis that goes beyond the > headlines. Only on > > MSN News Check it out! > > > From shuddha at sarai.net Sat Sep 20 14:30:33 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 14:30:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The updated list of killings by the firing ofarmedforces In-Reply-To: References: <921672.85527.qm@web31813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <600E7EFF-4294-4CCA-9E12-7F2B466F02A8@sarai.net> Message-ID: <866C37B0-61C7-4ACA-9778-79CE53EFBE79@sarai.net> On 20-Sep-08, at 2:13 PM, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > Dear Shuddha, > > the entire issue of "giving" land for yatris and "taking it back > was a ploy by the then CM of Kashmir state, the motive is clear for > all to see. Appeasement to hindus in rest of India, by the feel of > the sentiment that oldest party is facilitating the hindus and the > yathra. The benefits would have been immense to Congress to boast > about "giving" lands to yathris. > > In actual practise, this land would have gone to hangers on of the > madam, to construct the yathrinivas, swindle the yathris of the > exorbitant room rents. What every citizen has overlooked is the > fact that for decades the kashimri economy which wholly depends on > toursim, devotional yathra, has been enabled by the kasmiri > citizens, mostly muslims because they are the citizens of that > landscape. > > Dear Radhika, I agree with some of what you are saying here. I have no disagreement with the above sentiments. I think here, just as in the opening of the lock at the disputed structure at Ayodhya, the ruling parties and the BJP both competed for the same space, in the run up to an election year. It has backfired on both, and has unleashed a situation that has led to the regrettable loss of life, in both Jammu and in Kashmir. As for who the people are who beat up truckers, unless you come clear with who your sources are and why they should be trusted, we will have to rely on what the public record indicates, and that suggests that the truckers were in fact assaulted by the protestors of the Shree Amarnath Yatra Sangharsh Samiti. See - http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/PoliticsNation/ Jammu_stir_hits_truck_movement/articleshow/3387128.cms regards, Shuddha From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Sat Sep 20 14:34:08 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 14:04:08 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Today's "media circus" at Jamia In-Reply-To: References: <622636.12444.qm@web51412.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: CNNIBN is the worst channel to have in India, thanks to amarati manoos who like chameleon changes colours to suit the occassion. Rajdeep is a disgrace for journalism. Did the members notice that this was the only channel to get the advertisement from Delhi government about delhi dreams right before the vote on N-deal vote. ? This once again was the only channel to talk of the Agriculture minister "congratulating" the farmers for record producion. Repeated ads and colosssal adrevenue made this channel, hide the sting it carried out once it realised that the sting instead of helping Sonia would damage the reputation of already damaged Congress party.! Weeks later, another channel times ow started getting this ad as it slowly, but vehemently started embarassing the Congress thanks to polite Arnab Goswami. Once the ads came, the voice became much more softer for Congress. ! NDTV surprisingly was neutral to start with, bt later got he benefit of the ad, as it had the baggage of left to carry in editorial board.? Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Lalit Ambardar Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008 12:43 am Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Today's "media circus" at Jamia To: Yousuf , sarai list , Sanjhi Virasat > Oh, go & watch CNN IBN. If that is what is bothering you. Prof > Jillani -remember who was released on technical grounds in the > parliament attack case ( cnn ibn introduced him as human rights > activist...????...), & quite a few more spoke what would actually > please you. And also your 'media circus' has cost the nation a > young brave police man. You & your ilk wouldn't care though. > > Look there is a problem.If you guys have any concern for the poor > Muslims masses- come up & face the reality.That young aeronautics > engineer from Bangalory did not blow himself up in faraway > Glasgow for any 'media circus'. > > Those Kalashnikov wielding Kashmiri pan Islamists did not just > subject Kashmiri Hindu Pandits to ethnic cleansing in the valley > for the media circus- there was only DD then. > But yes,the green flags holding zealots did thump the earth > beneath their feet ranting 'ragda' 'ragda' - 'India' in Srinagar > recently while exhibiting rabid intolerance in opposing the land > to their co state subjects for Amarnth pilgrimage use, for A Roy; > Vir Sanghvi ; Ankleshwar Iyar; Prem Shankar Jha & associates. > LA > > > > > Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 07:55:49 -0700> From: ysaeed7 at yahoo.com> > To: reader-list at sarai.net; sanjhi_virasat at yahoogroups.com> > Subject: [Reader-list] Today's "media circus" at Jamia> > Friends> > I have titled this message the “media circus”, although I am > actually referring to this morning’s so-called encounter killing > of two young people referred to as “terrorists” in L-18 Batla > House, Jamia Nagar, by the Delhi police. I call it media circus > because that’s what I think it really is, like many more such > incidents. > > The incident happened in my neigbourhood, about 150 > meters from my house. So I have the opportunity to see how things > are turning up. I had gone out of the area for some work while the > incident was taking place around 11 am, but found it impossible to > reach back home 2 hours later, because the road for about 1 and a > half kilometer (on both sides) was completely blocked, not by the > police vehicles, but by the parked OB vans of the countless TV > channels, some of which I never heard of before. Each of these > vehicles had its generators on, and thick video cables jetting out > of them for several meters to the other end where the cameraperson > and the excited anchor were shouting how two terrorists have been > killed in the fierce encounter. Most local people are surprised at > the speed with which the TV crews arrived here and in such large > number. Apparently, the Delhi Police had already told a section of > the press they are going for a raid in Batla House, based> on the > suspect Abu Bashir’s tip-off (I heard this from a anchor on Times > NOW channel, although Police chief Dadwal is now denying there is > any link with Abu Bashir), but they didn’t obviously say it was > going to be an encounter. Its strange that the local residents got > to know about the incident only after the two people had been > killed – many in fact learnt it from the Aaj-tak channel. They > claim they heard only the police firing and no gunshots from > inside the flat, which the police claim have injured two of their > constables.> > Most of you watching news TV in your homes may have > already heard the cacophony of the TV anchors, each trying to be > shriller than the other to prove that the local members of the > Indian Mujahideen have been killed. They now seem to have > memorized their lines on this issue well, since they have to > repeat the same thing again and again. The graphics, animated > logos, crawling tickers, and dramatic music/soundtrack to go with > such coverage are always ready in the cans to be used at short > notice. A cameraman running towards Batla House is nibbling at a > burger while he holds on to a camera in his other hand. I saw two > members of a TV crew outside the Holy Family Hospital (where the > injured policemen have been taken) fiercely fight about which > camera angle would look best for a sound byte. Everything looks as > if planned and part of the usual business. The cops are happily > allowing the media to climb any wall to get the best shot while > they beat the local> rickshawpullers to leave the roads clean. The > message has got across loud and clear: we told you – Batla House > is a haven of terrorists.> > But many things sound fishy. I’ve > been hearing a lot of angry conversations in the neighborhood: > people are asking that if the police had only planned a simple > raid (which they did 2 days ago in Zakir Nagar and Abul Fazl > Enclave too), why did they have to bring battalions of police and > encounter specialists with AK-56 and other deadly looking guns > (that I myself saw) in advance. And why is the media called in > even before the residents are told. Of course the fact the this > happens in the month of Ramzan, on a Friday, and near a large > mosque where people were going to gather in large numbers later > for prayers, sounds just too predictable and clichéd for anyone’s > imagination. Some locals claim that the police had been visiting > this place (and that particular house) since last few days, and > the so-called terrorists and their weapons were probably “planted” > last night for this encounter. This claim would obviously find no > takers in the presently> created euphoria (did you see any channel > showing a sound byte to this affect?) I didn’t find a single local > resident who is not fed up with this oft-repeated image of Jamia > Nagar as harboring terrorists. But none of the channels I saw > aired the public angst against their portrayal.> > To be honest, > one shouldn’t deny that the Batla House area has some criminal and > anti-social elements, just as Darya Ganj or Shahadra or Govindpuri > would have. But most local residents believe that for Jamia to > become a haven of such criminal elements, the local police and > land-mafia are equally responsible. Jamia area is one of the rare > localities of Delhi where the rule of law doesn’t apply in most > spheres. The land mafia openly indulges in illegal construction; > no rules of traffic apply here, the condition of civic amenities > is abysmal. Illegal shops, factories (many with child labour) and > businesses operate here actively with police connivance. The local > politicians (MLA, councilors) are actually part of the problem > rather than the solution. There is a full-scale illegal ISBT (bus > stand) running in Batla House’s backyard to bring hundreds of > migrants everyday from small towns of UP (you can see the police > openly accepting bribe from its> operators any day). > > There is > no question of sealing whatever the heck business you may run > here, and most places stink with heaps of garbage everywhere. > There are no RWAs or citizen’s initiatives to discuss the > problems. It is truly a manufactured ghetto of Delhi – why don’t > all these problems happen in Lajpat Nagar or Kalkaji? I am > positive that the authorities are aware that criminals (or what > they call terrorists) exist here. But they deliberately allow them > to thrive here – never to be touched in the normal/peaceful times > – keep them for the right time. It is as if Batla House is a > laboratory or breeding ground where things are allowed to grow by > providing all the required ingredients and safety. The fruits are > plucked only when they are ripe (or required). So today, they > simply came to gather the fruit they had sown, and made a big > exhibition of it by calling the media. The local people, > frightened that the next encounter may happen in their house, > simply> squirm and hide in their personal ghettos.> > In all this, > a big responsibility lies with the media, and I am yet to come > across bold and honest reporters who are ready to go beyond the > obvious and investigate the truth – not simply repeat what is told > to them by the authorities or their channel bosses.> > Yousuf > Saeed> September 19, 2008> > > > > > > > _________________________________________> reader-list: an open > discussion list on media and the city.> Critiques & > Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.> To > unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > _________________________________________________________________ > Searching for weekend getaways? Try Live.com > http://www.live.com/?scope=video&form=MICOAL > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Sat Sep 20 14:39:59 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 14:39:59 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised In-Reply-To: References: <6353c690809182021u4fb74001g9064d3fa5b8b2c6f@mail.gmail.com> <169ff67c0809190317o72d3ee9l3b502a73561d1372@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809190414g6ce8861eq441fa7d5d609bd32@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809191232u65c82564lee7992d112a4cb6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0809200209r45db4222y10920e7515bddb76@mail.gmail.com> Dear Lalit, I have never questioned yours or anyone else's attachment to Kashmir or said it was invalid. I am sure you feel a great deal for what you have left behind and I respect that, as I am sure does everyone else on this list. The fact that you are unable to live there must cause you tremendous sorrow and it is a terrible tragedy. I was making a point about the sort of attachment it is possible for me to have, which is of an entirely different order. Having said that, I'm not sure how you are making the rest of the connections in your response. > > It wasn't the case of 'no evidence' but 'insufficient evidence' & we all > respect the judicial verdict- 'released' even though on 'technical grounds' > only. > I am not sure what the scare quotes are meant to achieve. Scare quotes are normally used to qualify, or question, the validity of a word or phrase. So 'released' makes no sense, because he was in fact acquitted. There is no room for doubt about this. Again I am unable to understand what 'even though on technical grounds only' is supposed to mean. There are no OTHER grounds on which acquittals are made. People are only ever acquitted on technical grounds. Evidence is a technicality of the judicial process. When there is no evidence linking someone to an event, then they are acquitted. I am unable to understand what you find so confusing about this. Its really quite simple in this case. I do not suppose we can ever imagine what a nightmare SAR Geelani must have gone through. But I think we should be a little more respectful of things we are lucky we have not had occasion to experience. best Aarti > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 01:02:06 +0530 > From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com > To: lalitambardar at hotmail.com > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised > CC: radhikarajen at vsnl.net; reader-list at sarai.net > > > > Dear Lalit, > > Yes he was released on "technical" grounds. The "technical" grounds that > the law acquits people on, namely on the utter lack of any evidence linking > him to the parliament attack. I know the fact that someone is innocent is a > flimsy excuse in your book because it would be much better to hang him > nonetheless and "salve the conscience of the nation", however you will be > surprised to know that evidence of culpability is actually pretty central to > the judicial process. Unfortunately, it is not simply enough for you to > believe that Geelani was behind the attack, it has to be proved. It has not > been proved. There is no evidence at all. > > I have said this before on this list, and I am saying it again - terror, > whether by agents acting against the state and terror by the state are > mirrors of each other. Monstrous shadows that seemingly confront each other > in a relationship of tense alterity. And who is to say which is which and > who is whom? > > In the times in which we live we will be asked again and again to suspend > our sense of justice, of ethical responsibility in the name of national > security, of fighting terror. To justify everything - fake encounters, > arrest without warrants, torture, detention on suspicion, rape - so that we > may all be safe. Safe from what? We are producing the ghosts that haunt us. > > best > Aarti > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 6:45 PM, Lalit Ambardar > wrote: > > By the way, this 'guy' was released on 'technical grounds' only. Even one > of that 'celebrity' senior most criminal lawyers could not get him relieved > of this tag. And yet, he continues with his diatribe against India. > > And for these 'mobile citizens' they appear to be a confused lot. Here, > they espouse the cause of the pan Islamism driven secessionism in Kashmir & > lo, there they raise an issue on the relationship between the 'land' & 'the > nation'. They have no quarrel with those who thump the 'very land' in > kashmir with their heals ranting 'ragda'....'ragda' implying 'crush India'. > How ironic . Those who do not want to be part of this nation are welcome to > opt for the 'land of the pure' & it quite fits in to the mobile citizens' > theory- you could still love the land (even if one ignores that > stupid 'ragda'....'ragda' thumping....???... ) yet need not posses it. > Regards all > LA > p s : Opposite of 'nation state' can only be 'anarchy' & 'anarchy' can > only lead to 'mayhem' that is so visible in > Kashmir since 1989-90. > > ------------------------------ > > > Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 16:45:02 +0500 > > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > To: aarti.sethi at gmail.com > > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised > > > > Aarti, > > > > we seem to have carried forward of the concept of freedom and rights too > far without realising to be free, we have some responsibility also to the > nation and society that has bestowed upon us the freedom and rights. in fact > the rights have the other side of the coin, that is duties. Without duties > to the society, exercising only rights is like license to behave as any > individual wants, a license to tamper the rights of others in society, it is > license to be irrelevant in a society which has given rights to individuals > to be free. > > > > A Roy, after winning a booker prize and some dollars can not be > exercising her rights without the responsibilty to the society in which she > lives. If she declares herself as walking and talking republic then she has > every right to say so, but her safety then, solely on her, not on the > republic of India as she misbehaves in the society that she lives in > > > > A Geelani when he invokes his right of feee expression, and as activist > of human rights, he has to be aware of all humans in society when he > supports the terror in jamia nagar. When he stores the ground floor plan of > parliament, he has to be aware that, he is neither an architect nor a civil > engineer and his act can help his terrorist friends. A court may acquit him > of the charges, but citizens look at him with certain apprehension, because > what business he has not to inform of the terror activities that go on in > his neighbourhood. ? Every citizen is police without uniform for the > society, every police is citizen with uniform. When ghettos of muslims > sheltor, defend the terror accused, the citizens of the nation feel sorry > for ntire community and look with disdain. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Aarti Sethi > > Date: Friday, September 19, 2008 4:45 pm > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised > > To: Nazneen Anand Shamsi , sarai list < > reader-list at sarai.net> > > > > > Dear Nazneen, > > > > > > > > > I have no quarrel with love for land at all. And read my post > > > again. I used > > > a specific phrase, I said, 'territorial lust for land'. Can you > > > love land > > > without possessing it? That is the question. > > > > > > How exactly do you build a relationship with land with which you > > > have no > > > personal history of settlement or usage? Now obviously this is > > > both an > > > abstract and a concrete question. I have never been to Kashmir, > > > does this > > > mean I cannot have any relationship to it? Of course not! The > > > question is > > > what kind of relationship? When I was one year old my father went > > > on a > > > voyage to Antarctica. One of my most favourite memories of > > > childhood is > > > seeing the slides he brought back of the incredible snowscapes and ice > > > sheets, and a rock which lay in a corner of our house for many years. > > > Apparently it was part of a meteor which smashed into the earth > > > some million > > > years ago. Antarctica is part of no country. Its land is part of > > > the common > > > heritage of humanity, for all to build relationships with. As far > > > as I am > > > concerned this is the only productive, ethical and creative way to > > > think of > > > land. > > > > > > The trouble is being an Indian citizen gives me fictional > > > 'ownership' over > > > the entire territory of India. As if I have some special > > > entitlement to the > > > square miles that are part of the map. But which land, whose land > > > and whose > > > love? Currently there are struggles going on in this country - in > > > singur, in > > > nandigram, in niyamgiri, to name only three sites - where people > > > are asking > > > this question. Communities it seems have no right to their own > > > land in the > > > name of "development". And this is fine by your logic is it not? > > > Because the > > > development of India means that everyone has an entitlement. All > > > land is the > > > property of the state. When did this come to pass? Can we ask these > > > questions? Or immediately "pills" must be taken to stamp out these > > > viruses?Maybe your love for India entitles you to such a claim, I > > > do not feel this > > > entitlement. And in my opinion this sort of entitlement is where > > > violence is > > > born. Can you see the quagmire we are in when we begin to collapse > > > lovefor/of land and territorial entitlement? They are not the same > > > thing. > > > What does cheering for the Indian cricket team have to do with the > > > area per > > > square miles of India? Believe me, I am not being facetious at > > > all. The only > > > reason this sounds idiotic is because we take for granted the > > > logic of the > > > modern nation state which consists of a sovereign entity for a > > > territorialunit, with a standing army to defend this territory. > > > This is the first > > > lesson in every graduate political science lecture. And you are > > > right, the > > > nation state is a fragile concept. So maybe we need to ask > > > ourselves whether > > > this is not causing more trouble than it is worth... > > > > > > Regarding archives and fiction, this is a longer discussion and > > > tangentialto the point I was making. Of course we may discuss it > > > if you wish. But just > > > to clarify what I was saying, I can claim the heritage of the > > > whole world as > > > my own. There is an old humanist saying "the world is my home" and > > > i think > > > there is something of tremendous value here. But there are several > > > ways in > > > which history and heritage can be claimed. One way seems to be > > > logic of > > > subsuming everything, all forms of life and love and affection > > > into the > > > rubric of the nation and to stamp out violently any persons or > > > forms of life > > > which fall out of this. I am afraid this is too violent and boring > > > for me. > > > > > > regards > > > Aarti > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 3:47 PM, Nazneen Anand Shamsi < > > > nazoshmasi at googlemail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Dear Aarti, > > > > > > > > Please explain how many years constitute a civilization? For > > > that matter, > > > > please elucidate the relationship between temporal continuity > > > and a concept, > > > > if any? Why should 'pride in being Indian' exclude love for > > > land? As far as > > > > history books are concerned, I would ask, who is to decide which > > > fiction of > > > > the archives is valid? Nation state is a fragile concept, and > > > whats wrong > > > > in subduing those who make it more vulnerable? To not to do so > > > is I think > > > > not allow one to take a pill if one is afflicted by a minor > > > virus and hope > > > > that the body will cope on its own...it is ridiculous isn't it? > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > Nazo > > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 9:39 AM, Aarti Sethi > > > wrote:> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > The signatories assert that "Kashmir is an inalienable > > > element of > > > >> India's > > > >> > civilisational identity and symbolises the fundamental > > > principles on > > > >> which > > > >> > the modern Indian state has been built." Terming national > > > will as a > > > >> > critical > > > >> > component of state power, they felt that "devious > > > adversaries" have > > > >> > resorted > > > >> > to psychological warfare in order to break the national will. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> What is India's 'civilizational identity'? Does 60 years > > > constitute a > > > >> 'civilization'? The point is, that to even raise this question is > > > >> "sedition". As if those who ask this question are somehow naive > > > deluded>> juvile people. Does 'pride in being Indian', whatever > > > that is, have to be > > > >> coupled with a territorial lust for land? I don't think so. Our > > > >> imaginations > > > >> and affections surely encompass more than the nation. And in > > > fact they do, > > > >> that is my point. Read any history book taught in school. We > > > are so > > > >> willing > > > >> so claim 2,000 years of history as 'Indian history', but that > > > history>> becomes 'Indian history' only 60 years ago. The march of > > > history does not > > > >> cut some straight and true swath from Ashoka to Nehru, as if > > > 2,000 years > > > >> of > > > >> history is the long unfolding of the story of the 'Indian > > > nation'. Why is > > > >> this so scary to concieve is what I don't understand. > > > >> > > > >> Nations are not god-given entities. They are historically > > > produced units > > > >> of > > > >> social organisation. Which is not to say they are of no value > > > or that they > > > >> have never played a progressive role. Or that we must have no > > > investment>> in > > > >> them. But its alright to question and query the nation. There > > > is nothing > > > >> divine about it. Its not 'immoral'. People who are asking these > > > questions>> are not 'bad people', 'enemies of India'. > > > >> People who are asking today questions about Kashmir's future > > > and its > > > >> relationship with India are asking us to think deeply and hard > > > about how > > > >> India defines her/its identity. This is a good question, it > > > would help us > > > >> all to spend some time on it. It is possible to think > > > creatively at this > > > >> moment about the very many ways in which Kashmir can relate to > > > India.>> There > > > >> has been some discussion of those ways on this list itself. > > > Various kinds > > > >> of > > > >> autonomy arrangements, of porous borders, many things can be > > > thought>> through. But to deign all such conversations as > > > "seditious" is no way to > > > >> go > > > >> anywhere. > > > >> > > > >> best > > > >> A > > > >> _________________________________________ > > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > >> List archive: > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > list > > > List archive: > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > ------------------------------ > Hottest news and in-depth analysis that goes beyond the headlines. Only on > MSN News Check it out! > > > > ------------------------------ > Get the latest buzz on outsourcing. Up to date information on mergers, > acquisitions and deals on BPO Watch. Try it now! > From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Sat Sep 20 14:40:38 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 14:10:38 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Conference of Kashmiri Pandits to chalk future strategy In-Reply-To: <6353c690809190854y5835e852ucc3e0b6be16ebf9e@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690809190854y5835e852ucc3e0b6be16ebf9e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hey, make it Kasmiri hindus, not pandits, as the very same pandit in jawahar Nehru who was neither a pandit nor a hindu in his debauch ways, had let down the very secularism in the state and governance, his daughter with wayward behaviour was thrown out of Shantiniketan by none other than Tagore. Later she got impregnated by her grocer Feroz Khan, and was adopted by mahatma to save the grace is big history. Ofcourse she was draupadi f modern times, that she stopped living with feroz, the grocer, Mohammed yunus took over the job of procreation.! It may look that this is personal of Indira Priyadarshini, but it has to be personal, as she was the public figure using the pubic power to be in governance, and her hybrid sones , particulary Rajiv got baptised in London and hence the bartender of backalleys of london could become proxy governor Of India.! Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Aditya Raj Kaul Date: Friday, September 19, 2008 9:25 pm Subject: [Reader-list] Conference of Kashmiri Pandits to chalk future strategy To: sarai list > Conference of Kashmiri Pandits to chalk future strategy > > Agencies > Posted online: September 19, 2008 > > Link - > http://www.kashmirlive.com/story/Conference-of-Kashmiri-Pandits-to- > chalk-future-strategy/363413.html > > *Jammu, September 19: *Prominent Kashmiri pandits will > participate in a > conference in Jammu in January to chalk out an action plan for the > "struggle" against militants and separatists that has entered a > "crucial"phase, Panun Kashmir has said. > > "This conference assumes significance in view of the success of > the recent > Amarnath agitation and endorsement of our stand for a separate > homeland in > Kashmir by the BJP," said Agnishankar, convenor of the outfit > advocating the > cause of the community that was forced to flee the Valley in the > wake of > militancy. > > "As nearly two decades come to a close since Pandits were forced > to leave > the Valley, the Panun Kashmir has decided to organise the third > conferenceon January 19," he told reporters. > > Agnishakher said Pandits who migrated from the Valley before 1990 > and lived > in other parts of India, will be invited to the conference along with > delegates from across the world to decide the future course of > action in the > wake of the "ambiguity on the part of the centre to rehabilitate > panditsback in the Valley". > > "We have entered a crucial phase of our battle and from here on the > community needs to be prepared against terrorists and separatists > operatingin Kashmir." > > Representatives of nearly 55 lakh Sarswat Brahmins in India, who > trace their > ancestry to Kashmir, will also participate in the conference, he > added. > Panun Kashmir is demanding a "homeland" for four lakh Kashmiri > Pandits in > the Valley with a union territory status. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Sat Sep 20 14:47:22 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 14:17:22 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Today's "media circus" at Jamia In-Reply-To: <622636.12444.qm@web51412.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <622636.12444.qm@web51412.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: When do this muslim community accept the laws of the land and behave with the nation. It is always seen, if the plice went even for interrogation, inquiry, the immediate hell breaks loose with allegation of "targetiing' and harassment of muslims. Why can not this community identify, isolate and hand over the deviant of their community to law. ? Anyway, even if that happens we have judges in highest court who ave passed judgements in record minutes. Recently, chief judge of karnataka passed 56 judgements in seventy minutes with six breaks in between, and then got promoted to Supreme court.! By the way, some of the judgements were in direct contradiction of SC judgements such as use of english mediumin schools which had yaken prmission to functionas kannada medium schools. Ofcourse one bird told me that each school had contributed as farewell gift , three thousand schools, 10 K each, great parting gift to this judge.? because even if appeal comes to supreme court, my hoon na. ? ----- Original Message ----- From: Yousuf Date: Friday, September 19, 2008 8:26 pm Subject: [Reader-list] Today's "media circus" at Jamia To: sarai list , Sanjhi Virasat > Friends > I have titled this message the “media circus”, although I am > actually referring to this morning’s so-called encounter killing > of two young people referred to as “terrorists” in L-18 Batla > House, Jamia Nagar, by the Delhi police. I call it media circus > because that’s what I think it really is, like many more such > incidents. > > The incident happened in my neigbourhood, about 150 meters from my > house. So I have the opportunity to see how things are turning up. > I had gone out of the area for some work while the incident was > taking place around 11 am, but found it impossible to reach back > home 2 hours later, because the road for about 1 and a half > kilometer (on both sides) was completely blocked, not by the > police vehicles, but by the parked OB vans of the countless TV > channels, some of which I never heard of before. Each of these > vehicles had its generators on, and thick video cables jetting out > of them for several meters to the other end where the cameraperson > and the excited anchor were shouting how two terrorists have been > killed in the fierce encounter. Most local people are surprised at > the speed with which the TV crews arrived here and in such large > number. Apparently, the Delhi Police had already told a section of > the press they are going for a raid in Batla House, based > on the suspect Abu Bashir’s tip-off (I heard this from a anchor > on Times NOW channel, although Police chief Dadwal is now denying > there is any link with Abu Bashir), but they didn’t obviously say > it was going to be an encounter. Its strange that the local > residents got to know about the incident only after the two people > had been killed – many in fact learnt it from the Aaj-tak channel. > They claim they heard only the police firing and no gunshots from > inside the flat, which the police claim have injured two of their > constables. > Most of you watching news TV in your homes may have already heard > the cacophony of the TV anchors, each trying to be shriller than > the other to prove that the local members of the Indian Mujahideen > have been killed. They now seem to have memorized their lines on > this issue well, since they have to repeat the same thing again > and again. The graphics, animated logos, crawling tickers, and > dramatic music/soundtrack to go with such coverage are always > ready in the cans to be used at short notice. A cameraman running > towards Batla House is nibbling at a burger while he holds on to a > camera in his other hand. I saw two members of a TV crew outside > the Holy Family Hospital (where the injured policemen have been > taken) fiercely fight about which camera angle would look best for > a sound byte. Everything looks as if planned and part of the usual > business. The cops are happily allowing the media to climb any > wall to get the best shot while they beat the local > rickshawpullers to leave the roads clean. The message has got > across loud and clear: we told you – Batla House is a haven of > terrorists. > But many things sound fishy. I’ve been hearing a lot of angry > conversations in the neighborhood: people are asking that if the > police had only planned a simple raid (which they did 2 days ago > in Zakir Nagar and Abul Fazl Enclave too), why did they have to > bring battalions of police and encounter specialists with AK-56 > and other deadly looking guns (that I myself saw) in advance. And > why is the media called in even before the residents are told. Of > course the fact the this happens in the month of Ramzan, on a > Friday, and near a large mosque where people were going to gather > in large numbers later for prayers, sounds just too predictable > and clichéd for anyone’s imagination. Some locals claim that the > police had been visiting this place (and that particular house) > since last few days, and the so-called terrorists and their > weapons were probably “planted” last night for this encounter. > This claim would obviously find no takers in the presently > created euphoria (did you see any channel showing a sound byte to > this affect?) I didn’t find a single local resident who is not fed > up with this oft-repeated image of Jamia Nagar as harboring > terrorists. But none of the channels I saw aired the public angst > against their portrayal. > > To be honest, one shouldn’t deny that the Batla House area has > some criminal and anti-social elements, just as Darya Ganj or > Shahadra or Govindpuri would have. But most local residents > believe that for Jamia to become a haven of such criminal > elements, the local police and land-mafia are equally responsible. > Jamia area is one of the rare localities of Delhi where the rule > of law doesn’t apply in most spheres. The land mafia openly > indulges in illegal construction; no rules of traffic apply here, > the condition of civic amenities is abysmal. Illegal shops, > factories (many with child labour) and businesses operate here > actively with police connivance. The local politicians (MLA, > councilors) are actually part of the problem rather than the > solution. There is a full-scale illegal ISBT (bus stand) running > in Batla House’s backyard to bring hundreds of migrants everyday > from small towns of UP (you can see the police openly accepting > bribe from its > operators any day). > > There is no question of sealing whatever the heck business you may > run here, and most places stink with heaps of garbage everywhere. > There are no RWAs or citizen’s initiatives to discuss the > problems. It is truly a manufactured ghetto of Delhi – why don’t > all these problems happen in Lajpat Nagar or Kalkaji? I am > positive that the authorities are aware that criminals (or what > they call terrorists) exist here. But they deliberately allow them > to thrive here – never to be touched in the normal/peaceful times > – keep them for the right time. It is as if Batla House is a > laboratory or breeding ground where things are allowed to grow by > providing all the required ingredients and safety. The fruits are > plucked only when they are ripe (or required). So today, they > simply came to gather the fruit they had sown, and made a big > exhibition of it by calling the media. The local people, > frightened that the next encounter may happen in their house, simply > squirm and hide in their personal ghettos. > > In all this, a big responsibility lies with the media, and I am > yet to come across bold and honest reporters who are ready to go > beyond the obvious and investigate the truth – not simply repeat > what is told to them by the authorities or their channel bosses. > > Yousuf Saeed > September 19, 2008 > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Sat Sep 20 14:53:55 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 14:53:55 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised In-Reply-To: References: <6353c690809182021u4fb74001g9064d3fa5b8b2c6f@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809191232u65c82564lee7992d112a4cb6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0809200223v5b15b6dbqae451e5815717c0a@mail.gmail.com> Radhika. Enough. Just. Shut. Up. Be. Quiet. Do Not Speak. You embarrass and insult yourself. regards A On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 2:26 PM, wrote: > Aarti, > > in the incident of inquiry and then shoot out at police officer, then the > action of self defence ending in killing of the terror accused, is seen by > all in the nation. Any right thinking citizen would have also noticed that > to enter jamianagar, the lawkeepers can not go in uniform. They have to go > only in mufti even for inquiry. Subsequent develpments of large force of RAF > and additional police presence shows the community in poor light in so far > as this community is law unto themselves. > > I have lived in jamia nagar larn the finer aspects of religion of islam, > for my assignment abroad, and I know for sure, this jamianagar has dirty > underbelly of the community which has the lots of sex workers from Bihar, UP > and even bangaldesh. It has car thieves, anti-social elements and also rich > leaders who arrange the man/woman power for shouting slogans for the party > which pays for the work. If mother of all sacrifices has an occassion to > showcase her sacrifice the slogan shouters are from jamianagar. Worst, law > keepers can not get any credible information of terror infested, indoctrined > brains from this area, because the residents feel they have islamic rue > there, not indian constitution, for duties to the nation. Only for rights > they have to invoke the constitution, not for duties. > > Every laws are broken, bent in jamia nagar, building laws are not > existing, police is seen as "hindu" plice, officials are "hindu officials. > > Well If mahatma had known all this, he definitely would not have agreed > for the stay of these in India for harmonious living.! > All said and done, there are few good muslims there in jamia nagar, who > have tolerent view, but alas, they are even in majority are scared of the > geelanis and madams who have brothels running these with the help of goons > of islam. > Regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Aarti Sethi > Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008 1:02 am > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised > To: Lalit Ambardar > Cc: radhikarajen at vsnl.net, sarai list > > > Dear Lalit, > > > > Yes he was released on "technical" grounds. The "technical" > > grounds that the > > law acquits people on, namely on the utter lack of any evidence > > linking him > > to the parliament attack. I know the fact that someone is innocent > > is a > > flimsy excuse in your book because it would be much better to hang him > > nonetheless and "salve the conscience of the nation", however you > > will be > > surprised to know that evidence of culpability is actually pretty > > central to > > the judicial process. Unfortunately, it is not simply enough for > > you to > > believe that Geelani was behind the attack, it has to be proved. > > It has not > > been proved. There is no evidence at all. > > > > I have said this before on this list, and I am saying it again - > > terror,whether by agents acting against the state and terror by > > the state are > > mirrors of each other. Monstrous shadows that seemingly confront > > each other > > in a relationship of tense alterity. And who is to say which is > > which and > > who is whom? > > > > In the times in which we live we will be asked again and again to > > suspendour sense of justice, of ethical responsibility in the name > > of national > > security, of fighting terror. To justify everything - fake encounters, > > arrest without warrants, torture, detention on suspicion, rape - > > so that we > > may all be safe. Safe from what? We are producing the ghosts that > > haunt us. > > > > best > > Aarti > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 6:45 PM, Lalit Ambardar > > wrote: > > > > > By the way, this 'guy' was released on 'technical grounds' > > only. Even one > > > of that 'celebrity' senior most criminal lawyers could not get > > him relieved > > > of this tag. And yet, he continues with his diatribe against India. > > > > > > And for these 'mobile citizens' they appear to be a confused > > lot. Here, > > > they espouse the cause of the pan Islamism driven secessionism > > in Kashmir & > > > lo, there they raise an issue on the relationship between the > > 'land' & 'the > > > nation'. They have no quarrel with those who thump the 'very > > land' in > > > kashmir with their heals ranting 'ragda'....'ragda' implying > > 'crush India'. > > > How ironic . Those who do not want to be part of this nation are > > welcome to > > > opt for the 'land of the pure' & it quite fits in to the mobile > > citizens'> theory- you could still love the land (even if one > > ignores that > > > stupid 'ragda'....'ragda' thumping....???... ) yet need not > > posses it. > > > Regards all > > > LA > > > p s : Opposite of 'nation state' can only be 'anarchy' & > > 'anarchy' can > > > only lead to 'mayhem' that is so visible in > > > Kashmir since 1989-90. > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 16:45:02 +0500 > > > > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > > > To: aarti.sethi at gmail.com > > > > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir > > criticised> > > > > > Aarti, > > > > > > > > we seem to have carried forward of the concept of freedom and > > rights too > > > far without realising to be free, we have some responsibility > > also to the > > > nation and society that has bestowed upon us the freedom and > > rights. in fact > > > the rights have the other side of the coin, that is duties. > > Without duties > > > to the society, exercising only rights is like license to behave > > as any > > > individual wants, a license to tamper the rights of others in > > society, it is > > > license to be irrelevant in a society which has given rights to > > individuals> to be free. > > > > > > > > A Roy, after winning a booker prize and some dollars can not be > > > exercising her rights without the responsibilty to the society > > in which she > > > lives. If she declares herself as walking and talking republic > > then she has > > > every right to say so, but her safety then, solely on her, not > > on the > > > republic of India as she misbehaves in the society that she > > lives in > > > > > > > > A Geelani when he invokes his right of feee expression, and as > > activist> of human rights, he has to be aware of all humans in > > society when he > > > supports the terror in jamia nagar. When he stores the ground > > floor plan of > > > parliament, he has to be aware that, he is neither an architect > > nor a civil > > > engineer and his act can help his terrorist friends. A court may > > acquit him > > > of the charges, but citizens look at him with certain > > apprehension, because > > > what business he has not to inform of the terror activities that > > go on in > > > his neighbourhood. ? Every citizen is police without uniform for the > > > society, every police is citizen with uniform. When ghettos of > > muslims> sheltor, defend the terror accused, the citizens of the > > nation feel sorry > > > for ntire community and look with disdain. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Aarti Sethi > > > > Date: Friday, September 19, 2008 4:45 pm > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir > > criticised> > To: Nazneen Anand Shamsi > > , sarai list < > > > reader-list at sarai.net> > > > > > > > > > Dear Nazneen, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have no quarrel with love for land at all. And read my post > > > > > again. I used > > > > > a specific phrase, I said, 'territorial lust for land'. Can you > > > > > love land > > > > > without possessing it? That is the question. > > > > > > > > > > How exactly do you build a relationship with land with which you > > > > > have no > > > > > personal history of settlement or usage? Now obviously this is > > > > > both an > > > > > abstract and a concrete question. I have never been to Kashmir, > > > > > does this > > > > > mean I cannot have any relationship to it? Of course not! The > > > > > question is > > > > > what kind of relationship? When I was one year old my father > > went> > > on a > > > > > voyage to Antarctica. One of my most favourite memories of > > > > > childhood is > > > > > seeing the slides he brought back of the incredible > > snowscapes and ice > > > > > sheets, and a rock which lay in a corner of our house for > > many years. > > > > > Apparently it was part of a meteor which smashed into the earth > > > > > some million > > > > > years ago. Antarctica is part of no country. Its land is > > part of > > > > > the common > > > > > heritage of humanity, for all to build relationships with. > > As far > > > > > as I am > > > > > concerned this is the only productive, ethical and creative > > way to > > > > > think of > > > > > land. > > > > > > > > > > The trouble is being an Indian citizen gives me fictional > > > > > 'ownership' over > > > > > the entire territory of India. As if I have some special > > > > > entitlement to the > > > > > square miles that are part of the map. But which land, whose > > land> > > and whose > > > > > love? Currently there are struggles going on in this country > > - in > > > > > singur, in > > > > > nandigram, in niyamgiri, to name only three sites - where people > > > > > are asking > > > > > this question. Communities it seems have no right to their own > > > > > land in the > > > > > name of "development". And this is fine by your logic is it not? > > > > > Because the > > > > > development of India means that everyone has an entitlement. All > > > > > land is the > > > > > property of the state. When did this come to pass? Can we > > ask these > > > > > questions? Or immediately "pills" must be taken to stamp out > > these> > > viruses?Maybe your love for India entitles you to such > > a claim, I > > > > > do not feel this > > > > > entitlement. And in my opinion this sort of entitlement is where > > > > > violence is > > > > > born. Can you see the quagmire we are in when we begin to > > collapse> > > lovefor/of land and territorial entitlement? They > > are not the same > > > > > thing. > > > > > What does cheering for the Indian cricket team have to do > > with the > > > > > area per > > > > > square miles of India? Believe me, I am not being facetious at > > > > > all. The only > > > > > reason this sounds idiotic is because we take for granted the > > > > > logic of the > > > > > modern nation state which consists of a sovereign entity for a > > > > > territorialunit, with a standing army to defend this territory. > > > > > This is the first > > > > > lesson in every graduate political science lecture. And you are > > > > > right, the > > > > > nation state is a fragile concept. So maybe we need to ask > > > > > ourselves whether > > > > > this is not causing more trouble than it is worth... > > > > > > > > > > Regarding archives and fiction, this is a longer discussion and > > > > > tangentialto the point I was making. Of course we may > > discuss it > > > > > if you wish. But just > > > > > to clarify what I was saying, I can claim the heritage of the > > > > > whole world as > > > > > my own. There is an old humanist saying "the world is my > > home" and > > > > > i think > > > > > there is something of tremendous value here. But there are > > several> > > ways in > > > > > which history and heritage can be claimed. One way seems to be > > > > > logic of > > > > > subsuming everything, all forms of life and love and affection > > > > > into the > > > > > rubric of the nation and to stamp out violently any persons or > > > > > forms of life > > > > > which fall out of this. I am afraid this is too violent and > > boring> > > for me. > > > > > > > > > > regards > > > > > Aarti > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 3:47 PM, Nazneen Anand Shamsi < > > > > > nazoshmasi at googlemail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Aarti, > > > > > > > > > > > > Please explain how many years constitute a civilization? For > > > > > that matter, > > > > > > please elucidate the relationship between temporal continuity > > > > > and a concept, > > > > > > if any? Why should 'pride in being Indian' exclude love for > > > > > land? As far as > > > > > > history books are concerned, I would ask, who is to decide > > which> > > fiction of > > > > > > the archives is valid? Nation state is a fragile concept, and > > > > > whats wrong > > > > > > in subduing those who make it more vulnerable? To not to > > do so > > > > > is I think > > > > > > not allow one to take a pill if one is afflicted by a minor > > > > > virus and hope > > > > > > that the body will cope on its own...it is ridiculous > > isn't it? > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > > > Nazo > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 9:39 AM, Aarti Sethi > > > > > wrote:> > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > The signatories assert that "Kashmir is an inalienable > > > > > element of > > > > > >> India's > > > > > >> > civilisational identity and symbolises the fundamental > > > > > principles on > > > > > >> which > > > > > >> > the modern Indian state has been built." Terming national > > > > > will as a > > > > > >> > critical > > > > > >> > component of state power, they felt that "devious > > > > > adversaries" have > > > > > >> > resorted > > > > > >> > to psychological warfare in order to break the national > > will.> > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> What is India's 'civilizational identity'? Does 60 years > > > > > constitute a > > > > > >> 'civilization'? The point is, that to even raise this > > question is > > > > > >> "sedition". As if those who ask this question are somehow > > naive> > > deluded>> juvile people. Does 'pride in being Indian', > > whatever> > > that is, have to be > > > > > >> coupled with a territorial lust for land? I don't think > > so. Our > > > > > >> imaginations > > > > > >> and affections surely encompass more than the nation. And in > > > > > fact they do, > > > > > >> that is my point. Read any history book taught in school. We > > > > > are so > > > > > >> willing > > > > > >> so claim 2,000 years of history as 'Indian history', but that > > > > > history>> becomes 'Indian history' only 60 years ago. The > > march of > > > > > history does not > > > > > >> cut some straight and true swath from Ashoka to Nehru, as if > > > > > 2,000 years > > > > > >> of > > > > > >> history is the long unfolding of the story of the 'Indian > > > > > nation'. Why is > > > > > >> this so scary to concieve is what I don't understand. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Nations are not god-given entities. They are historically > > > > > produced units > > > > > >> of > > > > > >> social organisation. Which is not to say they are of no value > > > > > or that they > > > > > >> have never played a progressive role. Or that we must > > have no > > > > > investment>> in > > > > > >> them. But its alright to question and query the nation. There > > > > > is nothing > > > > > >> divine about it. Its not 'immoral'. People who are asking > > these> > > questions>> are not 'bad people', 'enemies of India'. > > > > > >> People who are asking today questions about Kashmir's future > > > > > and its > > > > > >> relationship with India are asking us to think deeply and > > hard> > > about how > > > > > >> India defines her/its identity. This is a good question, it > > > > > would help us > > > > > >> all to spend some time on it. It is possible to think > > > > > creatively at this > > > > > >> moment about the very many ways in which Kashmir can > > relate to > > > > > India.>> There > > > > > >> has been some discussion of those ways on this list itself. > > > > > Various kinds > > > > > >> of > > > > > >> autonomy arrangements, of porous borders, many things can be > > > > > thought>> through. But to deign all such conversations as > > > > > "seditious" is no way to > > > > > >> go > > > > > >> anywhere. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> best > > > > > >> A > > > > > >> _________________________________________ > > > > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > > request at sarai.net with > > > > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > >> To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > >> List archive: > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > with> > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > > > list > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list> > List archive: > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > Hottest news and in-depth analysis that goes beyond the > > headlines. Only on > > > MSN News Check it out! > > > > > > > > From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Sat Sep 20 14:59:54 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 14:59:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Today's "media circus" at Jamia In-Reply-To: References: <622636.12444.qm@web51412.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0809200229x2c8cc730y991289b7837db920@mail.gmail.com> tell you what radhika, why don't you make a deal alright? You isolate and capture Praveen Togadia and hand him over to the police. And then we can ask our Muslim friends to hand over any terrorist friends they might have to the law. Sunds perfectly fair to me. What do you say? Should I be sending a van over now? Let us know when you've got him. And of course, the leaders of the VHP in Orissa. There's no point wasting anymore time. The sooner you can isolate them and hand them over to the law, the sooner we can get our Muslim friends on the job for their end of the bargain. thanks A On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 2:47 PM, wrote: > When do this muslim community accept the laws of the land and behave with > the nation. It is always seen, if the plice went even for interrogation, > inquiry, the immediate hell breaks loose with allegation of "targetiing' and > harassment of muslims. Why can not this community identify, isolate and hand > over the deviant of their community to law. ? > > Anyway, even if that happens we have judges in highest court who ave > passed judgements in record minutes. Recently, chief judge of karnataka > passed 56 judgements in seventy minutes with six breaks in between, and then > got promoted to Supreme court.! By the way, some of the judgements were in > direct contradiction of SC judgements such as use of english mediumin > schools which had yaken prmission to functionas kannada medium schools. > Ofcourse one bird told me that each school had contributed as farewell gift > , three thousand schools, 10 K each, great parting gift to this judge.? > > because even if appeal comes to supreme court, my hoon na. ? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Yousuf > Date: Friday, September 19, 2008 8:26 pm > Subject: [Reader-list] Today's "media circus" at Jamia > To: sarai list , Sanjhi Virasat < > sanjhi_virasat at yahoogroups.com> > > > Friends > > I have titled this message the "media circus", although I am > > actually referring to this morning's so-called encounter killing > > of two young people referred to as "terrorists" in L-18 Batla > > House, Jamia Nagar, by the Delhi police. I call it media circus > > because that's what I think it really is, like many more such > > incidents. > > > > The incident happened in my neigbourhood, about 150 meters from my > > house. So I have the opportunity to see how things are turning up. > > I had gone out of the area for some work while the incident was > > taking place around 11 am, but found it impossible to reach back > > home 2 hours later, because the road for about 1 and a half > > kilometer (on both sides) was completely blocked, not by the > > police vehicles, but by the parked OB vans of the countless TV > > channels, some of which I never heard of before. Each of these > > vehicles had its generators on, and thick video cables jetting out > > of them for several meters to the other end where the cameraperson > > and the excited anchor were shouting how two terrorists have been > > killed in the fierce encounter. Most local people are surprised at > > the speed with which the TV crews arrived here and in such large > > number. Apparently, the Delhi Police had already told a section of > > the press they are going for a raid in Batla House, based > > on the suspect Abu Bashir's tip-off (I heard this from a anchor > > on Times NOW channel, although Police chief Dadwal is now denying > > there is any link with Abu Bashir), but they didn't obviously say > > it was going to be an encounter. Its strange that the local > > residents got to know about the incident only after the two people > > had been killed – many in fact learnt it from the Aaj-tak channel. > > They claim they heard only the police firing and no gunshots from > > inside the flat, which the police claim have injured two of their > > constables. > > Most of you watching news TV in your homes may have already heard > > the cacophony of the TV anchors, each trying to be shriller than > > the other to prove that the local members of the Indian Mujahideen > > have been killed. They now seem to have memorized their lines on > > this issue well, since they have to repeat the same thing again > > and again. The graphics, animated logos, crawling tickers, and > > dramatic music/soundtrack to go with such coverage are always > > ready in the cans to be used at short notice. A cameraman running > > towards Batla House is nibbling at a burger while he holds on to a > > camera in his other hand. I saw two members of a TV crew outside > > the Holy Family Hospital (where the injured policemen have been > > taken) fiercely fight about which camera angle would look best for > > a sound byte. Everything looks as if planned and part of the usual > > business. The cops are happily allowing the media to climb any > > wall to get the best shot while they beat the local > > rickshawpullers to leave the roads clean. The message has got > > across loud and clear: we told you – Batla House is a haven of > > terrorists. > > But many things sound fishy. I've been hearing a lot of angry > > conversations in the neighborhood: people are asking that if the > > police had only planned a simple raid (which they did 2 days ago > > in Zakir Nagar and Abul Fazl Enclave too), why did they have to > > bring battalions of police and encounter specialists with AK-56 > > and other deadly looking guns (that I myself saw) in advance. And > > why is the media called in even before the residents are told. Of > > course the fact the this happens in the month of Ramzan, on a > > Friday, and near a large mosque where people were going to gather > > in large numbers later for prayers, sounds just too predictable > > and clichéd for anyone's imagination. Some locals claim that the > > police had been visiting this place (and that particular house) > > since last few days, and the so-called terrorists and their > > weapons were probably "planted" last night for this encounter. > > This claim would obviously find no takers in the presently > > created euphoria (did you see any channel showing a sound byte to > > this affect?) I didn't find a single local resident who is not fed > > up with this oft-repeated image of Jamia Nagar as harboring > > terrorists. But none of the channels I saw aired the public angst > > against their portrayal. > > > > To be honest, one shouldn't deny that the Batla House area has > > some criminal and anti-social elements, just as Darya Ganj or > > Shahadra or Govindpuri would have. But most local residents > > believe that for Jamia to become a haven of such criminal > > elements, the local police and land-mafia are equally responsible. > > Jamia area is one of the rare localities of Delhi where the rule > > of law doesn't apply in most spheres. The land mafia openly > > indulges in illegal construction; no rules of traffic apply here, > > the condition of civic amenities is abysmal. Illegal shops, > > factories (many with child labour) and businesses operate here > > actively with police connivance. The local politicians (MLA, > > councilors) are actually part of the problem rather than the > > solution. There is a full-scale illegal ISBT (bus stand) running > > in Batla House's backyard to bring hundreds of migrants everyday > > from small towns of UP (you can see the police openly accepting > > bribe from its > > operators any day). > > > > There is no question of sealing whatever the heck business you may > > run here, and most places stink with heaps of garbage everywhere. > > There are no RWAs or citizen's initiatives to discuss the > > problems. It is truly a manufactured ghetto of Delhi – why don't > > all these problems happen in Lajpat Nagar or Kalkaji? I am > > positive that the authorities are aware that criminals (or what > > they call terrorists) exist here. But they deliberately allow them > > to thrive here – never to be touched in the normal/peaceful times > > – keep them for the right time. It is as if Batla House is a > > laboratory or breeding ground where things are allowed to grow by > > providing all the required ingredients and safety. The fruits are > > plucked only when they are ripe (or required). So today, they > > simply came to gather the fruit they had sown, and made a big > > exhibition of it by calling the media. The local people, > > frightened that the next encounter may happen in their house, simply > > squirm and hide in their personal ghettos. > > > > In all this, a big responsibility lies with the media, and I am > > yet to come across bold and honest reporters who are ready to go > > beyond the obvious and investigate the truth – not simply repeat > > what is told to them by the authorities or their channel bosses. > > > > Yousuf Saeed > > September 19, 2008 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From lalitambardar at hotmail.com Sat Sep 20 15:02:25 2008 From: lalitambardar at hotmail.com (Lalit Ambardar) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 09:32:25 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Today's "media circus" at Jamia In-Reply-To: <47e122a70809192028m2cfcf1c9t42bef9fbf4235fee@mail.gmail.com> References: <77CF3B10-11CF-4CCE-A080-CC870E7044D1@sarai.net> <737889.54388.qm@web53601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <47e122a70809192028m2cfcf1c9t42bef9fbf4235fee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Inder, It is not difficult to trace the Jihadi terror trail invariably to Kashmir or via Kashmir to POK. It was only last week a known commander of HUJI was killed in Kishtwar. For the 2005 Diwali eve serial bombings in Delhi one of the main culprits- a Kashmiri Muslim is on trial. About the Parliament attack, we know all the role of Kashmiri pan Islamists. And let us not forget that the clerics from UP & Bihar had a major role in the indoctrination process in Kashmir. And I do not agree at all that the Muslim community as whole should be held responsible for the Jihadi terrorism. In fact I feel saddened that Muslims, because of some of their co-religionists who have chosen the path of pan Islamism are expected to prove their allegiance to India every time there was a terror attack. We are talking about a ‘mind set’. A Bangalury based young aeronautics engineer does not go all the way to faraway Glasgow to blow himself up there to avenge some ‘riot’ in his backyard back home. Then there was this Birmingham born Bilal who blew himself up in a suicide car bombing in Srinagar in 2000. The alleged ‘issues’ that you have attempted to raise as ‘justified grounds’ for terrorism are debatable & I suggest should not become part of this debate. After all you & me & others aren’t stupids who spend so much of time on this forum on discussions. It is shocking to see the known sympathisers of Kashmiri Muslim separatists citing your ‘argument’ on the TV screens. By justifying ‘terrorism’ on the grounds of perceived injustice, you are only encouraging further mayhem & anarchy. By the way what was the provocation that lead to the ethnic cleansing of the Hindu Pandits in the valley? If one would go by your logic then the exiled Hindu Pandits should have raised an army of insurgents to avenge the brutalities inflicted on them by the Kashmiri pan Islamists. Don’t forget & rightly so there has been no retaliation against the inhuman treatment meted out to the minuscule minority of Hindu Pandits at the hands of the zealots in the valley. Pandits continue to suffer the ignominy of being refugees in their own country. Pandits do have complains against their erstwhile neighbours, colleagues, friends who failed to protect them. Yet the bonhomie still exists. Kashmiriyat has been dumped & quite brazenly in the recent past in the valley but it still survives in the Hindu Pandit refugee camps out side Kashmir. Regards LA ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 08:58:41 +0530> From: indersalim at gmail.com> To: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Today's "media circus" at Jamia> > Dear Lalit> Apparently, Delhi blasts have nothing to do with Kashmir problem.> Let us dismiss Yousf's media circus theory regarding encounter in> Jamia, but let us think why it happened.> > can we dismiss the fact that Babri Masjid demolition happened, Bombay> riots, and then Gujarat where most of the muslim population had to> suffer for no fault of theirs.> > How is it surprising that some of the affected get motivated to do> this ugly work in Delhi or elsewhere. Who is the culprit?> > Media circus is a fact New World Order, we are still learning to live with it.> All we need to know is that how it works, what looks representation> of reality is truly a manufactured thing from word go.> > love> is> > > > > On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 6:02 AM, Rahul Asthana wrote:> > Did you guys factor in the small detail that a policeman has died?Was it to get more ratings for the "media circus" ?> > http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/sep/19del1.htm> > Mohan Chand Sharma, inspector of the Delhi [Images] Police Special Cell who was critically injured during an encounter with Delhi blasts-linked terrorists, died in a hospital on Friday evening.> >> > "We have lost our best man," Joint Commissioner of Police (Special Cell) Karnal Singh told PTI.> >> > Forty-one-year-old Sharma, a highly decorated officer who received three bullet injuries in his abdomen, thigh and right arm in the gunbattle at Jamia Nagar in South Delhi, succumbed to his injuries at the Holy Family hospital at 7 pm, doctors attending him said.> >> > A recipient of seven gallantry medals, Sharma, who had led the police team against the terrorists wanted in connection with the Delhi and Ahmedabad [Images] blasts, underwent an operation to remove the bullets from his body.> >> > The profusely-bleeding officer was taken to the hospital.> > --- On Sat, 9/20/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote:> >> >> From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Today's "media circus" at Jamia> >> To: "Yousuf" > >> Cc: "sarai list" > >> Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008, 2:01 AM> >> Dear Yousuf,> >>> >> Many thanks for this post and for sharing your thoughts on> >> the 'media> >> circus'.> >>> >> Watching the 'media circus' unfold on television, I> >> was appalled at> >> the manner in which the 'spectacle' was priming> >> itself up through the> >> day. A channel called 'News 24' for instance, was> >> repeatedly> >> informing us that it 'was the first to transmit> >> pictures of the> >> encounter' etc, as if it had just won India yet another> >> sharp-> >> shooting gold medal in the Olympics.> >>> >> A thought that did strike me was, "'how much more> >> disrespectful can> >> the blood-lust of this spectacle of a hunt, get to all> >> those who died> >> in today's 'Encounter' , be they policemen on> >> duty, or 'alleged'> >> terrorists ?"> >>> >> I think we need to give some serious thought to the fact> >> that these> >> days police encounters are actually an extended part of> >> 'Reality> >> TV' (which in any case, the entire genre should be more> >> appropriately> >> called 'Surreality TV'). That seem scripted well in> >> advance. How else> >> (as you so cogently point out) can one explain the sudden> >> appearance> >> of large OB vans, with heavy duty equipment, battling heavy> >> rush hour> >> traffic, in a congested area like Jamia Nagar, just at the> >> 'nick of> >> time'?> >>> >> The TV commentators, throughout the day, referred to what> >> their> >> 'sources' in the Special Cell, or in the Delhi> >> Police, told them. I> >> wondered to what degree the entire 'Operation' was> >> co-scripted,> >> between these 'sources' and the newsrooms of> >> Television channels.> >> There seems something almost monotonously repetitive in> >> these> >> situations. A strange feeling of Deja-Vu. Something tells> >> me we have> >> seen this before. Or is it just that I have watched way too> >> much> >> 'reality' ?> >>> >> regards> >>> >> Shuddha> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> On 19-Sep-08, at 8:25 PM, Yousuf wrote:> >>> >> > Friends> >> > I have titled this message the "media circus",> >> although I am> >> > actually referring to this morning's so-called> >> encounter killing of> >> > two young people referred to as "terrorists" in> >> L-18 Batla House,> >> > Jamia Nagar, by the Delhi police. I call it media> >> circus because> >> > that's what I think it really is, like many more> >> such incidents.> >> >> >> > The incident happened in my neigbourhood, about 150> >> meters from my> >> > house. So I have the opportunity to see how things are> >> turning up.> >> > I had gone out of the area for some work while the> >> incident was> >> > taking place around 11 am, but found it impossible to> >> reach back> >> > home 2 hours later, because the road for about 1 and a> >> half> >> > kilometer (on both sides) was completely blocked, not> >> by the police> >> > vehicles, but by the parked OB vans of the countless> >> TV channels,> >> > some of which I never heard of before. Each of these> >> vehicles had> >> > its generators on, and thick video cables jetting out> >> of them for> >> > several meters to the other end where the cameraperson> >> and the> >> > excited anchor were shouting how two terrorists have> >> been killed in> >> > the fierce encounter. Most local people are surprised> >> at the speed> >> > with which the TV crews arrived here and in such large> >> number.> >> > Apparently, the Delhi Police had already told a> >> section of the> >> > press they are going for a raid in Batla House, based> >> > on the suspect Abu Bashir's tip-off (I heard this> >> from a anchor on> >> > Times NOW channel, although Police chief Dadwal is now> >> denying> >> > there is any link with Abu Bashir), but they didn't> >> obviously say> >> > it was going to be an encounter. Its strange that the> >> local> >> > residents got to know about the incident only after> >> the two people> >> > had been killed – many in fact learnt it from the> >> Aaj-tak channel.> >> > They claim they heard only the police firing and no> >> gunshots from> >> > inside the flat, which the police claim have injured> >> two of their> >> > constables.> >> >> >> > Most of you watching news TV in your homes may have> >> already heard> >> > the cacophony of the TV anchors, each trying to be> >> shriller than> >> > the other to prove that the local members of the> >> Indian Mujahideen> >> > have been killed. They now seem to have memorized> >> their lines on> >> > this issue well, since they have to repeat the same> >> thing again and> >> > again. The graphics, animated logos, crawling tickers,> >> and dramatic> >> > music/soundtrack to go with such coverage are always> >> ready in the> >> > cans to be used at short notice. A cameraman running> >> towards Batla> >> > House is nibbling at a burger while he holds on to a> >> camera in his> >> > other hand. I saw two members of a TV crew outside the> >> Holy Family> >> > Hospital (where the injured policemen have been taken)> >> fiercely> >> > fight about which camera angle would look best for a> >> sound byte.> >> > Everything looks as if planned and part of the usual> >> business. The> >> > cops are happily allowing the media to climb any wall> >> to get the> >> > best shot while they beat the local> >> > rickshawpullers to leave the roads clean. The message> >> has got> >> > across loud and clear: we told you – Batla House is> >> a haven of> >> > terrorists.> >> >> >> > But many things sound fishy. I've been hearing a lot> >> of angry> >> > conversations in the neighborhood: people are asking> >> that if the> >> > police had only planned a simple raid (which they did> >> 2 days ago in> >> > Zakir Nagar and Abul Fazl Enclave too), why did they> >> have to bring> >> > battalions of police and encounter specialists with> >> AK-56 and other> >> > deadly looking guns (that I myself saw) in advance.> >> And why is the> >> > media called in even before the residents are told. Of> >> course the> >> > fact the this happens in the month of Ramzan, on a> >> Friday, and near> >> > a large mosque where people were going to gather in> >> large numbers> >> > later for prayers, sounds just too predictable and> >> clichéd for> >> > anyone's imagination. Some locals claim that the> >> police had been> >> > visiting this place (and that particular house) since> >> last few> >> > days, and the so-called terrorists and their weapons> >> were probably> >> > "planted" last night for this encounter. This> >> claim would obviously> >> > find no takers in the presently> >> > created euphoria (did you see any channel showing a> >> sound byte to> >> > this affect?) I didn't find a single local resident> >> who is not fed> >> > up with this oft-repeated image of Jamia Nagar as> >> harboring> >> > terrorists. But none of the channels I saw aired the> >> public angst> >> > against their portrayal.> >> >> >> > To be honest, one shouldn't deny that the Batla> >> House area has some> >> > criminal and anti-social elements, just as Darya Ganj> >> or Shahadra> >> > or Govindpuri would have. But most local residents> >> believe that for> >> > Jamia to become a haven of such criminal elements, the> >> local police> >> > and land-mafia are equally responsible. Jamia area is> >> one of the> >> > rare localities of Delhi where the rule of law> >> doesn't apply in> >> > most spheres. The land mafia openly indulges in> >> illegal> >> > construction; no rules of traffic apply here, the> >> condition of> >> > civic amenities is abysmal. Illegal shops, factories> >> (many with> >> > child labour) and businesses operate here actively> >> with police> >> > connivance. The local politicians (MLA, councilors)> >> are actually> >> > part of the problem rather than the solution. There is> >> a full-scale> >> > illegal ISBT (bus stand) running in Batla House's> >> backyard to bring> >> > hundreds of migrants everyday from small towns of UP> >> (you can see> >> > the police openly accepting bribe from its> >> > operators any day).> >> >> >> > There is no question of sealing whatever the heck> >> business you may> >> > run here, and most places stink with heaps of garbage> >> everywhere.> >> > There are no RWAs or citizen's initiatives to> >> discuss the problems.> >> > It is truly a manufactured ghetto of Delhi – why> >> don't all these> >> > problems happen in Lajpat Nagar or Kalkaji? I am> >> positive that the> >> > authorities are aware that criminals (or what they> >> call terrorists)> >> > exist here. But they deliberately allow them to thrive> >> here – never> >> > to be touched in the normal/peaceful times – keep> >> them for the> >> > right time. It is as if Batla House is a laboratory or> >> breeding> >> > ground where things are allowed to grow by providing> >> all the> >> > required ingredients and safety. The fruits are> >> plucked only when> >> > they are ripe (or required). So today, they simply> >> came to gather> >> > the fruit they had sown, and made a big exhibition of> >> it by calling> >> > the media. The local people, frightened that the next> >> encounter may> >> > happen in their house, simply> >> > squirm and hide in their personal ghettos.> >> >> >> > In all this, a big responsibility lies with the media,> >> and I am yet> >> > to come across bold and honest reporters who are ready> >> to go beyond> >> > the obvious and investigate the truth – not simply> >> repeat what is> >> > told to them by the authorities or their channel> >> bosses.> >> >> >> > Yousuf Saeed> >> > September 19, 2008> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > _________________________________________> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the> >> city.> >> > Critiques & Collaborations> >> > To subscribe: send an email to> >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with> >> > subscribe in the subject header.> >> > To unsubscribe:> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> >> > List archive:> >> > >>> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta> >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS> >> Raqs Media Collective> >> shuddha at sarai.net> >> www.sarai.net> >> www.raqsmediacollective.net> >>> >>> >> _________________________________________> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> >> Critiques & Collaborations> >> To subscribe: send an email to> >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject> >> header.> >> To unsubscribe:> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> >> List archive:> >> > >> >> >> > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Movies, sports & news! Get your daily entertainment fix, only on live.com http://www.live.com/?scope=video&form=MICOAL From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Sat Sep 20 15:01:25 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 14:31:25 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] BANGLADESH: 279 Custody Deaths in 20 Months of Emergency In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Rehamath, the commissions in India are jokes at the cost of national exchequer. The Human rights commisssion at state and national levels, national minority rights, national womens rights and all rights and commissions are addas of wrongs in democratic life as these are with retired judges who are tired of fudging the judgements in favour of a oldest party, these commisssions are rehabilitation centres for has been sycophants, these commissions seemto think that only "minorities have rights and these have no duties to the nation.? In Mangalore those indulged in violence have to be arrested and law has to act against all those who took law into their hands. But these commissions think that f they ar minorities , they can throw stones and injure all others, be it a policeman or any poor fellow walking on the road to his workplace. our great ex PM, Devegowda, who shed crocodile tears wen he visited the Bishop, had enough time to see the wounds of saree variety, had no time to see the poor worker who lost his eye by the stone thrown by peace loving goons of minority.! Margaret Alva who visited after the incident wanted all "christians" to be released even if they have stabbed the innocent citizens.! By the way did you know that Oscar fernands the discard who lst all the elections for Loksabha, who is waterboy of Sonia, whon ever visited Udupi for ages was, in Udupi three days before the the galata started. , ofcourse for very peaceful purposes of organising the protests in advance.! Worst, notice to karnataka and orissa under art.355, but no notice to Delhi state for harbouring, sheltoring terrorists.?- From: Shambhu Rahmat Date: Friday, September 19, 2008 5:30 pm Subject: [Reader-list] BANGLADESH: 279 Custody Deaths in 20 Months of Emergency To: reader-list at sarai.net > 279 fall victim to extra-judicial killing in 20 months: Says > Odikhar report > > Staff Correspondent, The Daily Star, September 13, 2008 > > http://www.thedailystar.net/story.php?nid=54585 > > At least 279 people fell victim to extrajudicial killing by the law > enforcement agencies across the country during the state of emergency > between January 2007 and September 2008, revealed a study report > yesterday. > > The report published by Odhikar, a human rights organisation, covers > 20 months of the present government. > > The government has set up National Human Rights Commission in the > country only to shore up their credibility before the international > community rather than safeguarding the rights of the people, it added. > > The report mentioned that the National Human Rights Commission > Ordinance 2007 provided for establishment of an independent body to > safeguard the people's rights, but it left the power to select the > chairman and members of the commission to a committee controlled by > the government officials, which is an impediment to establishing an > independent body. > > The ordinance stated that the commission would resolve the human > rights violations through arbitration or mediation, but Odhikar said > the violators should be tried in a court of law, which will ensure > exemplary punishment of the perpetrators. > > Besides, Right to Information Ordinance will curb the freedom of the > press and people's right to know rather than extending it, the report > said, adding that if the ordinance is promulgated, a person even a > journalist will need to apply in a prescribed form for information and > the authority will have the power to reject the application or provide > the information sought. > > It also expressed concern that the draft ordinance was prepared by a > committee dominated by bureaucrats who ignored submissions made by key > stakeholders like Federal Union of Journalists, National Press Club > and South Asian Free Media Association. > > Odhikar observed that the tele-tapping by the state is a direct > contravention of Article 43 (b) of the constitution that ensure a > person's right to the privacy of his correspondence and other > means of > communication. > > The report said Truth and Accountability Communication (Tac) has not > only failed to attain its desired objective, but it is also contrary > to the constitutional provisions and the spirit of law. > > Tac's aim to re-energise the country's economy has failed. Corrupt > businessmen and bureaucrats are allowed to continue their businesses > and services while politicians are barred from contesting in the > elections after being bestowed with mercy from the commission, it > added. > > The report further said the government should allow trade unionism in > all sectors to ensure a sustainable and healthy growth of the economy. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Sat Sep 20 15:05:42 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 14:35:42 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] The updated list of killings by the firing ofarmedforces In-Reply-To: <618230AD-838B-4B9B-BCF2-2D91427A19C0@sarai.net> References: <921672.85527.qm@web31813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <"e3398462415e.48d25 4b1"@vsnl.net> <600E7EFF-4294-4CCA-9E12-7F2B466F02A8@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70809192333r7a31fcdbh924ec652712fd450@mail.gmail.com> <618230AD-838B-4B9B-BCF2-2D91427A19C0@sarai.net> Message-ID: Shuddha, your post is bordering on something like insane or very intelligent.? Do the terrorists and insurgents have any uniform. ? Do the protesters in Srinagar have any uniform. ? They see the opportunity and become insurgents and perpetrate terror. be it Mufti or mehbooba they are within the society, but do they have any uniform for terrorists. ? Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008 2:12 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The updated list of killings by the firing ofarmedforces To: Pawan Durani Cc: sarai list > Pawan, > > I don't treat news of death as reasons for laughter, no matter who > dies. > The Col. Thomas who died in Kashmir did not die at the hands of > the > crowds on the streets of Kashmir. He died while on an operation, > in > combat, exactly as an insurgent dies in combat, while on an > operation. As one armed man taken out by other armed men. > > See - > http://www.hindu.com/2008/08/24/stories/2008082457840100.htm > > The report says - "Col. Thomas was killed as he led a quick > reaction > team from 45 Rashtriya Rifles in the dense forests of Macchal > sector, > near the Line of Control. His team shot down six militants and he > was > one of the four Indian soldiers who were killed in the battle." > > I regret all such deaths, whether they be of Col. Jojan Thomas, or > > Mohan Chand Sharma, or of a named or nameless insurgent, and > consider > them to be lives wasted in a senseless war. The only way to stop > deaths like these is to stop this war. I want this war to end. > > The two policemen who died in Jammu happened to be lynched by the > crowds on the streets of Jammu. They were not killed by militants > in > dense forests. The mob killed because it had a sense that it could > > act with impunity. They were not acting in self defence either. In > > this case, the mob was not retaliating for violence inflicted upon it. > > See - http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/PoliticsNation/ > Cops_lynched_rail_track_uprooted_in_Jammu/articleshow/3331088.cms > > The report says - "Mobs in Jammu lynched two cops to death and > uprooted a long stretch of the Jammu-Pathankote railway track." > > One can compare militants with militants and crowds of protestors, > > with crowds of protestors > > And when you do, you realize (if you are not wearing the kind of > blinkers that make you think of some deaths as more important than > > others) the important difference that I was trying to point out > between two kinds of 'peaceful protestors', and the responses to > them > by the state in Jammu, and in Kashmir. > > Try and cultivate a less vicious sense of humour. > > Shuddha > > > On 20-Sep-08, at 12:03 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > lol......funniest post ever. > > How soon we have forgotten Col. Thomas who was killed in > Kashmir. > > and then > > the statement People in Kashmir threw stones, like angry crowds do > > everywhere in the world. > > > > lol........ > > > > What an Idea Sirrr Jee. > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 1:53 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > wrote: > > > >> Dear Radhika, > >> > >> Thank you for your observations on Khurram's posting. > >> > >> Well, in this case some "protesters who claim to be peaceful, > >> holding sticks, guns and resort to arson and riot" were > "garlanded.">> I am referring to the ones in Jammu. You will > recall, that not a > >> single policeman or soldier or paramilitary personnel were > killed in > >> Kashmir. But two policemen did die in Jammu, and some truck drivers > >> assaulted by the 'peaceful' protestors in Jammu also succmbed, I > >> suppose in your opinion, "peacefully" from their injuries. Gujjar > >> huts were burnt in acts of "peaceful" arson. The crowds in Kashmir > >> who were fired upon, 50 of whom were killed at the last count, did > >> not bear weapons. We all saw the television pictures. They threw > >> stones, like angry crowds do everywhere in the world. But they did > >> not kill policemen. > >> > >> The government did not garland these protestors, it clamped > >> indefinite curfews and shot at them to kill. One the other hand it > >> did garland the protestors on the other side of the Banihal > pass. it > >> held some leaders under the Public Safety Act, and then released > >> them. It counducted 'negotiations' with the leaders of the peaceful > >> protests in Jammu and garlanded them with a sham 'accord'. All > these>> prove that if you happen to belong to the right place, > sport the > >> right kind of name, then even if your 'peaceful' protest turns > >> occasionally violent, you can still be 'garlanded' as you (in this > >> case) rightly point out. > >> > >> After all, we live in the country whose government called its > nuclear>> weapons tests in 1974, 'peaceful implosions'. > >> > >> In the novel, '1984' George Orwell, whom I have referred to in an > >> earlier posting, wrote about how in the language perfected by > >> fictional regime that he was decribing, (newspeak) 'PEACE' was > 'WAR'.>> > >> are you not indulging in a little modest 'newspeak' Radhika, > surely,>> you can do better than that? > >> > >> warm regards > >> > >> Shuddha > >> > >> On 18-Sep-08, at 1:46 PM, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > >> Khurram, > >> > >> your post makes me wonder, whether the protesters who claim to be > >> peaceful, holding sticks, guns and resort to arson and riot > should be > >> garlanded. ? > >> > >> > >> > >> _________________________________________ > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > Raqs Media Collective > shuddha at sarai.net > www.sarai.net > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Sat Sep 20 15:18:40 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 14:48:40 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Today's "media circus" at Jamia In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0809200229x2c8cc730y991289b7837db920@mail.gmail.com> References: <622636.12444.qm@web51412.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <48c2916d0809200229x2c8cc730y991289b7837db920@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Aarti, Praveen Togadia, mutalik and many such like Bajrangi and mahendra kumar are not in hiding, they are openly living unlike a basher, atiq and dawwood Ibrahim.Worst, togadias roaming freely in India in all the states , both ruled by all the political parties. If law needs them to be arrested they do not have the luxury of minority rights commisssion jumpimg to their statements.! But a geelani , yasin malik has aarti and many more to defend them solely on "technical" grounds.Oscar fernandes who went to Mangalore just three days before the rackus happened,in mangalore, had not visited the constituency after his defeat some ages ago, why the sudden visit. ? Maggi alwa after losing loksabha poll, in adjacent seat, has been cozily in Sonia darbar for over 8 years, now she is in Mangalore , ofcourse with mahila rights activists and chief of mahila commissin is accompanying her.! ----- Original Message ----- From: Aarti Sethi Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008 3:00 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Today's "media circus" at Jamia To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net Cc: Yousuf , sarai list , Sanjhi Virasat > tell you what radhika, why don't you make a deal alright? You > isolate and > capture Praveen Togadia and hand him over to the police. And then > we can ask > our Muslim friends to hand over any terrorist friends they might > have to the > law. Sunds perfectly fair to me. What do you say? Should I be > sending a van > over now? Let us know when you've got him. And of course, the > leaders of the > VHP in Orissa. There's no point wasting anymore time. The sooner > you can > isolate them and hand them over to the law, the sooner we can get > our Muslim > friends on the job for their end of the bargain. > > > thanks > A > > On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 2:47 PM, wrote: > > > When do this muslim community accept the laws of the land and > behave with > > the nation. It is always seen, if the plice went even for > interrogation,> inquiry, the immediate hell breaks loose with > allegation of "targetiing' and > > harassment of muslims. Why can not this community identify, > isolate and hand > > over the deviant of their community to law. ? > > > > Anyway, even if that happens we have judges in highest court > who ave > > passed judgements in record minutes. Recently, chief judge of > karnataka> passed 56 judgements in seventy minutes with six breaks > in between, and then > > got promoted to Supreme court.! By the way, some of the > judgements were in > > direct contradiction of SC judgements such as use of english > mediumin> schools which had yaken prmission to functionas kannada > medium schools. > > Ofcourse one bird told me that each school had contributed as > farewell gift > > , three thousand schools, 10 K each, great parting gift to this > judge.?> > > because even if appeal comes to supreme court, my hoon na. ? > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Yousuf > > Date: Friday, September 19, 2008 8:26 pm > > Subject: [Reader-list] Today's "media circus" at Jamia > > To: sarai list , Sanjhi Virasat < > > sanjhi_virasat at yahoogroups.com> > > > > > Friends > > > I have titled this message the "media circus", although I am > > > actually referring to this morning's so-called encounter killing > > > of two young people referred to as "terrorists" in L-18 Batla > > > House, Jamia Nagar, by the Delhi police. I call it media circus > > > because that's what I think it really is, like many more such > > > incidents. > > > > > > The incident happened in my neigbourhood, about 150 meters > from my > > > house. So I have the opportunity to see how things are turning up. > > > I had gone out of the area for some work while the incident was > > > taking place around 11 am, but found it impossible to reach back > > > home 2 hours later, because the road for about 1 and a half > > > kilometer (on both sides) was completely blocked, not by the > > > police vehicles, but by the parked OB vans of the countless TV > > > channels, some of which I never heard of before. Each of these > > > vehicles had its generators on, and thick video cables jetting out > > > of them for several meters to the other end where the cameraperson > > > and the excited anchor were shouting how two terrorists have been > > > killed in the fierce encounter. Most local people are > surprised at > > > the speed with which the TV crews arrived here and in such large > > > number. Apparently, the Delhi Police had already told a > section of > > > the press they are going for a raid in Batla House, based > > > on the suspect Abu Bashir's tip-off (I heard this from a anchor > > > on Times NOW channel, although Police chief Dadwal is now denying > > > there is any link with Abu Bashir), but they didn't obviously say > > > it was going to be an encounter. Its strange that the local > > > residents got to know about the incident only after the two people > > > had been killed – many in fact learnt it from the Aaj-tak channel. > > > They claim they heard only the police firing and no gunshots from > > > inside the flat, which the police claim have injured two of their > > > constables. > > > Most of you watching news TV in your homes may have already heard > > > the cacophony of the TV anchors, each trying to be shriller than > > > the other to prove that the local members of the Indian Mujahideen > > > have been killed. They now seem to have memorized their lines on > > > this issue well, since they have to repeat the same thing again > > > and again. The graphics, animated logos, crawling tickers, and > > > dramatic music/soundtrack to go with such coverage are always > > > ready in the cans to be used at short notice. A cameraman running > > > towards Batla House is nibbling at a burger while he holds on > to a > > > camera in his other hand. I saw two members of a TV crew outside > > > the Holy Family Hospital (where the injured policemen have been > > > taken) fiercely fight about which camera angle would look best for > > > a sound byte. Everything looks as if planned and part of the usual > > > business. The cops are happily allowing the media to climb any > > > wall to get the best shot while they beat the local > > > rickshawpullers to leave the roads clean. The message has got > > > across loud and clear: we told you – Batla House is a haven of > > > terrorists. > > > But many things sound fishy. I've been hearing a lot of angry > > > conversations in the neighborhood: people are asking that if the > > > police had only planned a simple raid (which they did 2 days ago > > > in Zakir Nagar and Abul Fazl Enclave too), why did they have to > > > bring battalions of police and encounter specialists with AK-56 > > > and other deadly looking guns (that I myself saw) in advance. And > > > why is the media called in even before the residents are told. Of > > > course the fact the this happens in the month of Ramzan, on a > > > Friday, and near a large mosque where people were going to gather > > > in large numbers later for prayers, sounds just too predictable > > > and clichéd for anyone's imagination. Some locals claim that the > > > police had been visiting this place (and that particular house) > > > since last few days, and the so-called terrorists and their > > > weapons were probably "planted" last night for this encounter. > > > This claim would obviously find no takers in the presently > > > created euphoria (did you see any channel showing a sound byte to > > > this affect?) I didn't find a single local resident who is not fed > > > up with this oft-repeated image of Jamia Nagar as harboring > > > terrorists. But none of the channels I saw aired the public angst > > > against their portrayal. > > > > > > To be honest, one shouldn't deny that the Batla House area has > > > some criminal and anti-social elements, just as Darya Ganj or > > > Shahadra or Govindpuri would have. But most local residents > > > believe that for Jamia to become a haven of such criminal > > > elements, the local police and land-mafia are equally responsible. > > > Jamia area is one of the rare localities of Delhi where the rule > > > of law doesn't apply in most spheres. The land mafia openly > > > indulges in illegal construction; no rules of traffic apply here, > > > the condition of civic amenities is abysmal. Illegal shops, > > > factories (many with child labour) and businesses operate here > > > actively with police connivance. The local politicians (MLA, > > > councilors) are actually part of the problem rather than the > > > solution. There is a full-scale illegal ISBT (bus stand) running > > > in Batla House's backyard to bring hundreds of migrants everyday > > > from small towns of UP (you can see the police openly accepting > > > bribe from its > > > operators any day). > > > > > > There is no question of sealing whatever the heck business you may > > > run here, and most places stink with heaps of garbage everywhere. > > > There are no RWAs or citizen's initiatives to discuss the > > > problems. It is truly a manufactured ghetto of Delhi – why don't > > > all these problems happen in Lajpat Nagar or Kalkaji? I am > > > positive that the authorities are aware that criminals (or what > > > they call terrorists) exist here. But they deliberately allow them > > > to thrive here – never to be touched in the normal/peaceful times > > > – keep them for the right time. It is as if Batla House is a > > > laboratory or breeding ground where things are allowed to grow by > > > providing all the required ingredients and safety. The fruits are > > > plucked only when they are ripe (or required). So today, they > > > simply came to gather the fruit they had sown, and made a big > > > exhibition of it by calling the media. The local people, > > > frightened that the next encounter may happen in their house, > simply> > squirm and hide in their personal ghettos. > > > > > > In all this, a big responsibility lies with the media, and I am > > > yet to come across bold and honest reporters who are ready to go > > > beyond the obvious and investigate the truth – not simply repeat > > > what is told to them by the authorities or their channel bosses. > > > > > > Yousuf Saeed > > > September 19, 2008 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > list > > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > From shuddha at sarai.net Sat Sep 20 15:21:57 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 15:21:57 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The updated list of killings by the firing ofarmedforces In-Reply-To: References: <921672.85527.qm@web31813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <"e3398462415e.48d25 4b1"@vsnl.net> <600E7EFF-4294-4CCA-9E12-7F2B466F02A8@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70809192333r7a31fcdbh924ec652712fd450@mail.gmail.com> <618230AD-838B-4B9B-BCF2-2D91427A19C0@sarai.net> Message-ID: <6C4952F0-F9B1-4E34-8B64-E76F58F503F8@sarai.net> Dear Radhika, As is well known, insurgents do often wear uniforms - to be precise - the uniforms of the police and the military. This is a kind of camouflage, and it is a masquerade that also indirectly benefits the police and armed forces 'special units' which, when they conduct their own 'operations', often blame the 'collateral damage' on insurgents, who appear like them. Correspondingly, military and police personnel, especially those in 'special units', often do not wear uniforms, sport longer hair, and beards, and merge into the general population, exactly as insurgents do. It might interest you all to know that the motto of the formidable Vairengte School of Counter Insurgency and Jungle Warfare (CIJWS) in Mizoram, which trains crack commandos from armies all over the world in counter insurgency operations is - 'fight the guerrilla as a guerrilla'. Insurgency, and counter-insurgency, as I think you are well aware, is often a game of mirrors. Sometimes the camouflage is so good that it makes the image and its reflection indistinguishable, not only to observers, but even to the protagonists themselves. regards, Shuddha On 20-Sep-08, at 3:05 PM, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > Shuddha, > > your post is bordering on something like insane or very > intelligent.? Do the terrorists and insurgents have any uniform. ? > Do the protesters in Srinagar have any uniform. ? They see the > opportunity and become insurgents and perpetrate terror. be it > Mufti or mehbooba they are within the society, but do they have any > uniform for terrorists. ? > > Regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008 2:12 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The updated list of killings by the > firing ofarmedforces > To: Pawan Durani > Cc: sarai list > >> Pawan, >> >> I don't treat news of death as reasons for laughter, no matter who >> dies. >> The Col. Thomas who died in Kashmir did not die at the hands of >> the >> crowds on the streets of Kashmir. He died while on an operation, >> in >> combat, exactly as an insurgent dies in combat, while on an >> operation. As one armed man taken out by other armed men. >> >> See - >> http://www.hindu.com/2008/08/24/stories/2008082457840100.htm >> >> The report says - "Col. Thomas was killed as he led a quick >> reaction >> team from 45 Rashtriya Rifles in the dense forests of Macchal >> sector, >> near the Line of Control. His team shot down six militants and he >> was >> one of the four Indian soldiers who were killed in the battle." >> >> I regret all such deaths, whether they be of Col. Jojan Thomas, or >> >> Mohan Chand Sharma, or of a named or nameless insurgent, and >> consider >> them to be lives wasted in a senseless war. The only way to stop >> deaths like these is to stop this war. I want this war to end. >> >> The two policemen who died in Jammu happened to be lynched by the >> crowds on the streets of Jammu. They were not killed by militants >> in >> dense forests. The mob killed because it had a sense that it could >> >> act with impunity. They were not acting in self defence either. In >> >> this case, the mob was not retaliating for violence inflicted upon >> it. >> >> See - http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/PoliticsNation/ >> Cops_lynched_rail_track_uprooted_in_Jammu/articleshow/3331088.cms >> >> The report says - "Mobs in Jammu lynched two cops to death and >> uprooted a long stretch of the Jammu-Pathankote railway track." >> >> One can compare militants with militants and crowds of protestors, >> >> with crowds of protestors >> >> And when you do, you realize (if you are not wearing the kind of >> blinkers that make you think of some deaths as more important than >> >> others) the important difference that I was trying to point out >> between two kinds of 'peaceful protestors', and the responses to >> them >> by the state in Jammu, and in Kashmir. >> >> Try and cultivate a less vicious sense of humour. >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> On 20-Sep-08, at 12:03 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: >> >>> lol......funniest post ever. >>> How soon we have forgotten Col. Thomas who was killed in >> Kashmir. >>> and then >>> the statement People in Kashmir threw stones, like angry crowds do >>> everywhere in the world. >>> >>> lol........ >>> >>> What an Idea Sirrr Jee. >>> >>> Pawan >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 1:53 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear Radhika, >>>> >>>> Thank you for your observations on Khurram's posting. >>>> >>>> Well, in this case some "protesters who claim to be peaceful, >>>> holding sticks, guns and resort to arson and riot" were >> "garlanded.">> I am referring to the ones in Jammu. You will >> recall, that not a >>>> single policeman or soldier or paramilitary personnel were >> killed in >>>> Kashmir. But two policemen did die in Jammu, and some truck drivers >>>> assaulted by the 'peaceful' protestors in Jammu also succmbed, I >>>> suppose in your opinion, "peacefully" from their injuries. Gujjar >>>> huts were burnt in acts of "peaceful" arson. The crowds in Kashmir >>>> who were fired upon, 50 of whom were killed at the last count, did >>>> not bear weapons. We all saw the television pictures. They threw >>>> stones, like angry crowds do everywhere in the world. But they did >>>> not kill policemen. >>>> >>>> The government did not garland these protestors, it clamped >>>> indefinite curfews and shot at them to kill. One the other hand it >>>> did garland the protestors on the other side of the Banihal >> pass. it >>>> held some leaders under the Public Safety Act, and then released >>>> them. It counducted 'negotiations' with the leaders of the peaceful >>>> protests in Jammu and garlanded them with a sham 'accord'. All >> these>> prove that if you happen to belong to the right place, >> sport the >>>> right kind of name, then even if your 'peaceful' protest turns >>>> occasionally violent, you can still be 'garlanded' as you (in this >>>> case) rightly point out. >>>> >>>> After all, we live in the country whose government called its >> nuclear>> weapons tests in 1974, 'peaceful implosions'. >>>> >>>> In the novel, '1984' George Orwell, whom I have referred to in an >>>> earlier posting, wrote about how in the language perfected by >>>> fictional regime that he was decribing, (newspeak) 'PEACE' was >> 'WAR'.>> >>>> are you not indulging in a little modest 'newspeak' Radhika, >> surely,>> you can do better than that? >>>> >>>> warm regards >>>> >>>> Shuddha >>>> >>>> On 18-Sep-08, at 1:46 PM, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: >>>> Khurram, >>>> >>>> your post makes me wonder, whether the protesters who claim to be >>>> peaceful, holding sticks, guns and resort to arson and riot >> should be >>>> garlanded. ? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _________________________________________ >>>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>>> Critiques & Collaborations >>>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >>>> subscribe in the subject header. >>>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>>> List archive: >>> _________________________________________ >>> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >>> Critiques & Collaborations >>> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net >> with >>> subscribe in the subject header. >>> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >>> List archive: >> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> Raqs Media Collective >> shuddha at sarai.net >> www.sarai.net >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >> list >> List archive: Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Sep 20 15:32:33 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 15:32:33 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The updated list of killings by the firing of armedforces In-Reply-To: <618230AD-838B-4B9B-BCF2-2D91427A19C0@sarai.net> References: <921672.85527.qm@web31813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <600E7EFF-4294-4CCA-9E12-7F2B466F02A8@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70809192333r7a31fcdbh924ec652712fd450@mail.gmail.com> <618230AD-838B-4B9B-BCF2-2D91427A19C0@sarai.net> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70809200302p13150ed1s94ad1a05947d0f29@mail.gmail.com> Dear Shuddha, Do you mean to say that the people who killed Col Thomas do not enjoy the hospitality and support of the "crowds" of Kashmir ? Pawan On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 2:10 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: > Pawan, > > > I don't treat news of death as reasons for laughter, no matter who dies. > > > The Col. Thomas who died in Kashmir did not die at the hands of the crowds > on the streets of Kashmir. He died while on an operation, in combat, exactly > as an insurgent dies in combat, while on an operation. As one armed man > taken out by other armed men. > > > See - > > http://www.hindu.com/2008/08/24/stories/2008082457840100.htm > > > The report says - "Col. Thomas was killed as he led a quick reaction team > from 45 Rashtriya Rifles in the dense forests of Macchal sector, near the > Line of Control. His team shot down six militants and he was one of the four > Indian soldiers who were killed in the battle." > > > I regret all such deaths, whether they be of Col. Jojan Thomas, or Mohan > Chand Sharma, or of a named or nameless insurgent, and consider them to be > lives wasted in a senseless war. The only way to stop deaths like these is > to stop this war. I want this war to end. > > > The two policemen who died in Jammu happened to be lynched by the crowds on > the streets of Jammu. They were not killed by militants in dense forests. > The mob killed because it had a sense that it could act with impunity. They > were not acting in self defence either. In this case, the mob was not > retaliating for violence inflicted upon it. > > > See - > http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/PoliticsNation/Cops_lynched_rail_track_uprooted_in_Jammu/articleshow/3331088.cms > > > The report says - "Mobs in Jammu lynched two cops to death and uprooted a > long stretch of the Jammu-Pathankote railway track." > > > One can compare militants with militants and crowds of protestors, with > crowds of protestors > > > And when you do, you realize (if you are not wearing the kind of blinkers > that make you think of some deaths as more important than others) the > important difference that I was trying to point out between two kinds of > 'peaceful protestors', and the responses to them by the state in Jammu, and > in Kashmir. > > > Try and cultivate a less vicious sense of humour. > > > Shuddha > > > > On 20-Sep-08, at 12:03 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > lol......funniest post ever. > > How soon we have forgotten Col. Thomas who was killed in Kashmir. and then > > the statement People in Kashmir threw stones, like angry crowds do > > everywhere in the world. > > > lol........ > > > What an Idea Sirrr Jee. > > > Pawan > > > > > On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 1:53 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta >wrote: > > > Dear Radhika, > > > Thank you for your observations on Khurram's posting. > > > Well, in this case some "protesters who claim to be peaceful, > > holding sticks, guns and resort to arson and riot" were "garlanded." > > I am referring to the ones in Jammu. You will recall, that not a > > single policeman or soldier or paramilitary personnel were killed in > > Kashmir. But two policemen did die in Jammu, and some truck drivers > > assaulted by the 'peaceful' protestors in Jammu also succmbed, I > > suppose in your opinion, "peacefully" from their injuries. Gujjar > > huts were burnt in acts of "peaceful" arson. The crowds in Kashmir > > who were fired upon, 50 of whom were killed at the last count, did > > not bear weapons. We all saw the television pictures. They threw > > stones, like angry crowds do everywhere in the world. But they did > > not kill policemen. > > > The government did not garland these protestors, it clamped > > indefinite curfews and shot at them to kill. One the other hand it > > did garland the protestors on the other side of the Banihal pass. it > > held some leaders under the Public Safety Act, and then released > > them. It counducted 'negotiations' with the leaders of the peaceful > > protests in Jammu and garlanded them with a sham 'accord'. All these > > prove that if you happen to belong to the right place, sport the > > right kind of name, then even if your 'peaceful' protest turns > > occasionally violent, you can still be 'garlanded' as you (in this > > case) rightly point out. > > > After all, we live in the country whose government called its nuclear > > weapons tests in 1974, 'peaceful implosions'. > > > In the novel, '1984' George Orwell, whom I have referred to in an > > earlier posting, wrote about how in the language perfected by > > fictional regime that he was decribing, (newspeak) 'PEACE' was 'WAR'. > > > are you not indulging in a little modest 'newspeak' Radhika, surely, > > you can do better than that? > > > warm regards > > > Shuddha > > > On 18-Sep-08, at 1:46 PM, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > > Khurram, > > > your post makes me wonder, whether the protesters who claim to be > > peaceful, holding sticks, guns and resort to arson and riot should be > > garlanded. ? > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > Raqs Media Collective > > shuddha at sarai.net > > www.sarai.net > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > From pawan.durani at gmail.com Sat Sep 20 15:33:41 2008 From: pawan.durani at gmail.com (Pawan Durani) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 15:33:41 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Conference of Kashmiri Pandits to chalk future strategy In-Reply-To: References: <6353c690809190854y5835e852ucc3e0b6be16ebf9e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6b79f1a70809200303t2d03abe4r12452985f53a3b42@mail.gmail.com> I agree ! On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 2:40 PM, wrote: > Hey, make it Kasmiri hindus, not pandits, as the very same pandit in > jawahar Nehru who was neither a pandit nor a hindu in his debauch ways, had > let down the very secularism in the state and governance, his daughter with > wayward behaviour was thrown out of Shantiniketan by none other than Tagore. > Later she got impregnated by her grocer Feroz Khan, and was adopted by > mahatma to save the grace is big history. Ofcourse she was draupadi f modern > times, that she stopped living with feroz, the grocer, Mohammed yunus took > over the job of procreation.! > > It may look that this is personal of Indira Priyadarshini, but it has to > be personal, as she was the public figure using the pubic power to be in > governance, and her hybrid sones , particulary Rajiv got baptised in London > and hence the bartender of backalleys of london could become proxy governor > Of India.! > > Regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Aditya Raj Kaul > Date: Friday, September 19, 2008 9:25 pm > Subject: [Reader-list] Conference of Kashmiri Pandits to chalk future > strategy > To: sarai list > > > Conference of Kashmiri Pandits to chalk future strategy > > > > Agencies > > Posted online: September 19, 2008 > > > > Link - > > http://www.kashmirlive.com/story/Conference-of-Kashmiri-Pandits-to- > > chalk-future-strategy/363413.html > > > > *Jammu, September 19: *Prominent Kashmiri pandits will > > participate in a > > conference in Jammu in January to chalk out an action plan for the > > "struggle" against militants and separatists that has entered a > > "crucial"phase, Panun Kashmir has said. > > > > "This conference assumes significance in view of the success of > > the recent > > Amarnath agitation and endorsement of our stand for a separate > > homeland in > > Kashmir by the BJP," said Agnishankar, convenor of the outfit > > advocating the > > cause of the community that was forced to flee the Valley in the > > wake of > > militancy. > > > > "As nearly two decades come to a close since Pandits were forced > > to leave > > the Valley, the Panun Kashmir has decided to organise the third > > conferenceon January 19," he told reporters. > > > > Agnishakher said Pandits who migrated from the Valley before 1990 > > and lived > > in other parts of India, will be invited to the conference along with > > delegates from across the world to decide the future course of > > action in the > > wake of the "ambiguity on the part of the centre to rehabilitate > > panditsback in the Valley". > > > > "We have entered a crucial phase of our battle and from here on the > > community needs to be prepared against terrorists and separatists > > operatingin Kashmir." > > > > Representatives of nearly 55 lakh Sarswat Brahmins in India, who > > trace their > > ancestry to Kashmir, will also participate in the conference, he > > added. > > Panun Kashmir is demanding a "homeland" for four lakh Kashmiri > > Pandits in > > the Valley with a union territory status. > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > list > > List archive: > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From shuddha at sarai.net Sat Sep 20 15:46:13 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 15:46:13 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The updated list of killings by the firing of armedforces In-Reply-To: <6b79f1a70809200302p13150ed1s94ad1a05947d0f29@mail.gmail.com> References: <921672.85527.qm@web31813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <600E7EFF-4294-4CCA-9E12-7F2B466F02A8@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70809192333r7a31fcdbh924ec652712fd450@mail.gmail.com> <618230AD-838B-4B9B-BCF2-2D91427A19C0@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70809200302p13150ed1s94ad1a05947d0f29@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0DBADDC6-9877-4CAE-832C-F71E43BC8A7F@sarai.net> Dear Pawan, The people who sent Col.Jojan Thomas to die in Kashmir (his masters in Delhi) also claim that they enjoy the hospitality and support of the people of Kashmir. They always maintain that there is no occupation, that the Indian army is in Kashmir only because the people of Kashmir want them there. So, everyone seems to claim the support and hospitality of the 'crowds' of Kashmir. Its just that no one has as yet thought it fit to ask these 'crowds' quite how far they want to stretch their hospitality. Since the people of Kashmir have been 'hospitable' to around 700,000 Indian soldier 'guests' for around two decades, I suppose they also extend their hospitality. from time to time, to a few 'other' guests. Both kinds of 'hospitality' seem to me to be extracted on gunpoint. I grieve for Col Thomas as much as I grieve for every Indian soldier, (some of whom kill themselves because they cannot bear being made to do the things that they are made to do in Kashmir) as much as I grieve for every dead and tortured insurgent (of whatever nationality). A death is never an occasion for joy. But most of all I grieve for the 'hospitable' people of Kashmir, who dig the graves, watch the coffins, bear the brunt of every pain, no matter who dies. The dead in Kashmir are also their guests, and these guests will haunt them for a very long time. I hope that one day, the ghosts, and their hosts, can learn to exist in each other's shadow without fear or pain. regards, Shuddha On 20-Sep-08, at 3:32 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > Dear Shuddha, > Do you mean to say that the people who killed Col Thomas do not > enjoy the > hospitality and support of the "crowds" of Kashmir ? > > Pawan > > > > On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 2:10 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > wrote: > >> Pawan, >> >> >> I don't treat news of death as reasons for laughter, no matter who >> dies. >> >> >> The Col. Thomas who died in Kashmir did not die at the hands of >> the crowds >> on the streets of Kashmir. He died while on an operation, in >> combat, exactly >> as an insurgent dies in combat, while on an operation. As one >> armed man >> taken out by other armed men. >> >> >> See - >> >> http://www.hindu.com/2008/08/24/stories/2008082457840100.htm >> >> >> The report says - "Col. Thomas was killed as he led a quick >> reaction team >> from 45 Rashtriya Rifles in the dense forests of Macchal sector, >> near the >> Line of Control. His team shot down six militants and he was one >> of the four >> Indian soldiers who were killed in the battle." >> >> >> I regret all such deaths, whether they be of Col. Jojan Thomas, or >> Mohan >> Chand Sharma, or of a named or nameless insurgent, and consider >> them to be >> lives wasted in a senseless war. The only way to stop deaths like >> these is >> to stop this war. I want this war to end. >> >> >> The two policemen who died in Jammu happened to be lynched by the >> crowds on >> the streets of Jammu. They were not killed by militants in dense >> forests. >> The mob killed because it had a sense that it could act with >> impunity. They >> were not acting in self defence either. In this case, the mob was not >> retaliating for violence inflicted upon it. >> >> >> See - >> http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/PoliticsNation/ >> Cops_lynched_rail_track_uprooted_in_Jammu/articleshow/3331088.cms >> >> >> The report says - "Mobs in Jammu lynched two cops to death and >> uprooted a >> long stretch of the Jammu-Pathankote railway track." >> >> >> One can compare militants with militants and crowds of protestors, >> with >> crowds of protestors >> >> >> And when you do, you realize (if you are not wearing the kind of >> blinkers >> that make you think of some deaths as more important than others) the >> important difference that I was trying to point out between two >> kinds of >> 'peaceful protestors', and the responses to them by the state in >> Jammu, and >> in Kashmir. >> >> >> Try and cultivate a less vicious sense of humour. >> >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> >> On 20-Sep-08, at 12:03 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: >> >> lol......funniest post ever. >> >> How soon we have forgotten Col. Thomas who was killed in Kashmir. >> and then >> >> the statement People in Kashmir threw stones, like angry crowds do >> >> everywhere in the world. >> >> >> lol........ >> >> >> What an Idea Sirrr Jee. >> >> >> Pawan >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 1:53 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> >> wrote: >> >> >> Dear Radhika, >> >> >> Thank you for your observations on Khurram's posting. >> >> >> Well, in this case some "protesters who claim to be peaceful, >> >> holding sticks, guns and resort to arson and riot" were "garlanded." >> >> I am referring to the ones in Jammu. You will recall, that not a >> >> single policeman or soldier or paramilitary personnel were killed in >> >> Kashmir. But two policemen did die in Jammu, and some truck drivers >> >> assaulted by the 'peaceful' protestors in Jammu also succmbed, I >> >> suppose in your opinion, "peacefully" from their injuries. Gujjar >> >> huts were burnt in acts of "peaceful" arson. The crowds in Kashmir >> >> who were fired upon, 50 of whom were killed at the last count, did >> >> not bear weapons. We all saw the television pictures. They threw >> >> stones, like angry crowds do everywhere in the world. But they did >> >> not kill policemen. >> >> >> The government did not garland these protestors, it clamped >> >> indefinite curfews and shot at them to kill. One the other hand it >> >> did garland the protestors on the other side of the Banihal pass. it >> >> held some leaders under the Public Safety Act, and then released >> >> them. It counducted 'negotiations' with the leaders of the peaceful >> >> protests in Jammu and garlanded them with a sham 'accord'. All these >> >> prove that if you happen to belong to the right place, sport the >> >> right kind of name, then even if your 'peaceful' protest turns >> >> occasionally violent, you can still be 'garlanded' as you (in this >> >> case) rightly point out. >> >> >> After all, we live in the country whose government called its nuclear >> >> weapons tests in 1974, 'peaceful implosions'. >> >> >> In the novel, '1984' George Orwell, whom I have referred to in an >> >> earlier posting, wrote about how in the language perfected by >> >> fictional regime that he was decribing, (newspeak) 'PEACE' was 'WAR'. >> >> >> are you not indulging in a little modest 'newspeak' Radhika, surely, >> >> you can do better than that? >> >> >> warm regards >> >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> On 18-Sep-08, at 1:46 PM, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: >> >> Khurram, >> >> >> your post makes me wonder, whether the protesters who claim to be >> >> peaceful, holding sticks, guns and resort to arson and riot should be >> >> garlanded. ? >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> >> Raqs Media Collective >> >> shuddha at sarai.net >> >> www.sarai.net >> >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> >> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Sat Sep 20 16:03:16 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 15:33:16 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] The updated list of killings by the firing ofarmedforces In-Reply-To: <0DBADDC6-9877-4CAE-832C-F71E43BC8A7F@sarai.net> References: <921672.85527.qm@web31813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <"e3398462415e.48d25 4b1"@vsnl.net> <600E7EFF-4294-4CCA-9E12-7F2B466F02A8@sarai.net> <"6b79f1a708091 92333r7a31fcdbh924ec652712fd450"@mail.gmail.com> <"618230AD-838B-4B9B-BCF2-2D9 1427A19C0"@sarai.net> <6b79f1a70809200302p13150ed1s94ad1a05947d0f29@mail.gmail.com> <0DBADDC6-9877-4CAE-832C-F71E43BC8A7F@sarai.net> Message-ID: Good thoughts, Shuddha, I grieve with you and share your thoughts. Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008 3:54 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] The updated list of killings by the firing ofarmedforces To: Pawan Durani Cc: sarai list > Dear Pawan, > > The people who sent Col.Jojan Thomas to die in Kashmir (his > masters > in Delhi) also claim that they enjoy the hospitality and support > of > the people of Kashmir. They always maintain that there is no > occupation, that the Indian army is in Kashmir only because the > people of Kashmir want them there. So, everyone seems to claim the > > support and hospitality of the 'crowds' of Kashmir. Its just that > no > one has as yet thought it fit to ask these 'crowds' quite how far > they want to stretch their hospitality. > > Since the people of Kashmir have been 'hospitable' to around > 700,000 > Indian soldier 'guests' for around two decades, I suppose they > also > extend their hospitality. from time to time, to a few 'other' > guests. > Both kinds of 'hospitality' seem to me to be extracted on gunpoint. > > I grieve for Col Thomas as much as I grieve for every Indian > soldier, > (some of whom kill themselves because they cannot bear being made > to > do the things that they are made to do in Kashmir) as much as I > grieve for every dead and tortured insurgent (of whatever > nationality). > A death is never an occasion for joy. But most of all I grieve for > > the 'hospitable' people of Kashmir, who dig the graves, watch the > coffins, bear the brunt of every pain, no matter who dies. The > dead > in Kashmir are also their guests, and these guests will haunt them > > for a very long time. I hope that one day, the ghosts, and their > hosts, can learn to exist in each other's shadow without fear or pain. > > regards, > > Shuddha > > > On 20-Sep-08, at 3:32 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > > > Dear Shuddha, > > Do you mean to say that the people who killed Col Thomas do not > > enjoy the > > hospitality and support of the "crowds" of Kashmir ? > > > > Pawan > > > > > > > > On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 2:10 PM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > wrote: > > > >> Pawan, > >> > >> > >> I don't treat news of death as reasons for laughter, no matter > who > >> dies. > >> > >> > >> The Col. Thomas who died in Kashmir did not die at the hands of > > >> the crowds > >> on the streets of Kashmir. He died while on an operation, in > >> combat, exactly > >> as an insurgent dies in combat, while on an operation. As one > > >> armed man > >> taken out by other armed men. > >> > >> > >> See - > >> > >> http://www.hindu.com/2008/08/24/stories/2008082457840100.htm > >> > >> > >> The report says - "Col. Thomas was killed as he led a quick > >> reaction team > >> from 45 Rashtriya Rifles in the dense forests of Macchal > sector, > >> near the > >> Line of Control. His team shot down six militants and he was > one > >> of the four > >> Indian soldiers who were killed in the battle." > >> > >> > >> I regret all such deaths, whether they be of Col. Jojan Thomas, > or > >> Mohan > >> Chand Sharma, or of a named or nameless insurgent, and consider > > >> them to be > >> lives wasted in a senseless war. The only way to stop deaths > like > >> these is > >> to stop this war. I want this war to end. > >> > >> > >> The two policemen who died in Jammu happened to be lynched by > the > >> crowds on > >> the streets of Jammu. They were not killed by militants in > dense > >> forests. > >> The mob killed because it had a sense that it could act with > >> impunity. They > >> were not acting in self defence either. In this case, the mob > was not > >> retaliating for violence inflicted upon it. > >> > >> > >> See - > >> http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/PoliticsNation/ > >> Cops_lynched_rail_track_uprooted_in_Jammu/articleshow/3331088.cms > >> > >> > >> The report says - "Mobs in Jammu lynched two cops to death and > >> uprooted a > >> long stretch of the Jammu-Pathankote railway track." > >> > >> > >> One can compare militants with militants and crowds of > protestors, > >> with > >> crowds of protestors > >> > >> > >> And when you do, you realize (if you are not wearing the kind > of > >> blinkers > >> that make you think of some deaths as more important than > others) the > >> important difference that I was trying to point out between two > > >> kinds of > >> 'peaceful protestors', and the responses to them by the state > in > >> Jammu, and > >> in Kashmir. > >> > >> > >> Try and cultivate a less vicious sense of humour. > >> > >> > >> Shuddha > >> > >> > >> > >> On 20-Sep-08, at 12:03 PM, Pawan Durani wrote: > >> > >> lol......funniest post ever. > >> > >> How soon we have forgotten Col. Thomas who was killed in > Kashmir. > >> and then > >> > >> the statement People in Kashmir threw stones, like angry > crowds do > >> > >> everywhere in the world. > >> > >> > >> lol........ > >> > >> > >> What an Idea Sirrr Jee. > >> > >> > >> Pawan > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 1:53 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > >> >>> wrote: > >> > >> > >> Dear Radhika, > >> > >> > >> Thank you for your observations on Khurram's posting. > >> > >> > >> Well, in this case some "protesters who claim to be peaceful, > >> > >> holding sticks, guns and resort to arson and riot" were > "garlanded.">> > >> I am referring to the ones in Jammu. You will recall, that not a > >> > >> single policeman or soldier or paramilitary personnel were > killed in > >> > >> Kashmir. But two policemen did die in Jammu, and some truck drivers > >> > >> assaulted by the 'peaceful' protestors in Jammu also succmbed, I > >> > >> suppose in your opinion, "peacefully" from their injuries. Gujjar > >> > >> huts were burnt in acts of "peaceful" arson. The crowds in Kashmir > >> > >> who were fired upon, 50 of whom were killed at the last count, did > >> > >> not bear weapons. We all saw the television pictures. They threw > >> > >> stones, like angry crowds do everywhere in the world. But they did > >> > >> not kill policemen. > >> > >> > >> The government did not garland these protestors, it clamped > >> > >> indefinite curfews and shot at them to kill. One the other hand it > >> > >> did garland the protestors on the other side of the Banihal > pass. it > >> > >> held some leaders under the Public Safety Act, and then released > >> > >> them. It counducted 'negotiations' with the leaders of the peaceful > >> > >> protests in Jammu and garlanded them with a sham 'accord'. All > these>> > >> prove that if you happen to belong to the right place, sport the > >> > >> right kind of name, then even if your 'peaceful' protest turns > >> > >> occasionally violent, you can still be 'garlanded' as you (in this > >> > >> case) rightly point out. > >> > >> > >> After all, we live in the country whose government called its > nuclear>> > >> weapons tests in 1974, 'peaceful implosions'. > >> > >> > >> In the novel, '1984' George Orwell, whom I have referred to in an > >> > >> earlier posting, wrote about how in the language perfected by > >> > >> fictional regime that he was decribing, (newspeak) 'PEACE' was > 'WAR'.>> > >> > >> are you not indulging in a little modest 'newspeak' Radhika, > surely,>> > >> you can do better than that? > >> > >> > >> warm regards > >> > >> > >> Shuddha > >> > >> > >> On 18-Sep-08, at 1:46 PM, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > >> > >> Khurram, > >> > >> > >> your post makes me wonder, whether the protesters who claim to be > >> > >> peaceful, holding sticks, guns and resort to arson and riot > should be > >> > >> garlanded. ? > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _________________________________________ > >> > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > >> List archive: > >> > >> _________________________________________ > >> > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > >> > >> Critiques & Collaborations > >> > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > >> subscribe in the subject header. > >> > >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > >> > >> List archive: > >> > >> > >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta > >> > >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS > >> > >> Raqs Media Collective > >> > >> shuddha at sarai.net > >> > >> www.sarai.net > >> > >> www.raqsmediacollective.net > >> > >> > >> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Sat Sep 20 16:08:27 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 15:38:27 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0809200223v5b15b6dbqae451e5815717c0a@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690809182021u4fb74001g9064d3fa5b8b2c6f@mail.gmail.com> <"e29 1ff29399b.48d3d70e"@vsnl.net> <"48c2916d0809191232u65c82564le e7992d112a4cb6"@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809200223v5b15b6dbqae451e5815717c0a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Great secular thoughts indeed, this is what exactly made us tolerent hindus.! ----- Original Message ----- From: Aarti Sethi Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008 2:53 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net Cc: Lalit Ambardar , sarai list > Radhika. Enough. Just. Shut. Up. Be. Quiet. Do Not Speak. You > embarrass and > insult yourself. > > regards > A > > > On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 2:26 PM, wrote: > > > Aarti, > > > > in the incident of inquiry and then shoot out at police > officer, then the > > action of self defence ending in killing of the terror accused, > is seen by > > all in the nation. Any right thinking citizen would have also > noticed that > > to enter jamianagar, the lawkeepers can not go in uniform. They > have to go > > only in mufti even for inquiry. Subsequent develpments of large > force of RAF > > and additional police presence shows the community in poor light > in so far > > as this community is law unto themselves. > > > > I have lived in jamia nagar larn the finer aspects of religion > of islam, > > for my assignment abroad, and I know for sure, this jamianagar > has dirty > > underbelly of the community which has the lots of sex workers > from Bihar, UP > > and even bangaldesh. It has car thieves, anti-social elements > and also rich > > leaders who arrange the man/woman power for shouting slogans for > the party > > which pays for the work. If mother of all sacrifices has an > occassion to > > showcase her sacrifice the slogan shouters are from jamianagar. > Worst, law > > keepers can not get any credible information of terror infested, > indoctrined> brains from this area, because the residents feel > they have islamic rue > > there, not indian constitution, for duties to the nation. Only > for rights > > they have to invoke the constitution, not for duties. > > > > Every laws are broken, bent in jamia nagar, building laws are not > > existing, police is seen as "hindu" plice, officials are "hindu > officials.> > > Well If mahatma had known all this, he definitely would not > have agreed > > for the stay of these in India for harmonious living.! > > All said and done, there are few good muslims there in jamia > nagar, who > > have tolerent view, but alas, they are even in majority are > scared of the > > geelanis and madams who have brothels running these with the > help of goons > > of islam. > > Regards. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Aarti Sethi > > Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008 1:02 am > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised > > To: Lalit Ambardar > > Cc: radhikarajen at vsnl.net, sarai list > > > > > Dear Lalit, > > > > > > Yes he was released on "technical" grounds. The "technical" > > > grounds that the > > > law acquits people on, namely on the utter lack of any evidence > > > linking him > > > to the parliament attack. I know the fact that someone is innocent > > > is a > > > flimsy excuse in your book because it would be much better to > hang him > > > nonetheless and "salve the conscience of the nation", however you > > > will be > > > surprised to know that evidence of culpability is actually pretty > > > central to > > > the judicial process. Unfortunately, it is not simply enough for > > > you to > > > believe that Geelani was behind the attack, it has to be proved. > > > It has not > > > been proved. There is no evidence at all. > > > > > > I have said this before on this list, and I am saying it again > - > > > terror,whether by agents acting against the state and terror by > > > the state are > > > mirrors of each other. Monstrous shadows that seemingly confront > > > each other > > > in a relationship of tense alterity. And who is to say which is > > > which and > > > who is whom? > > > > > > In the times in which we live we will be asked again and again to > > > suspendour sense of justice, of ethical responsibility in the name > > > of national > > > security, of fighting terror. To justify everything - fake > encounters,> > arrest without warrants, torture, detention on > suspicion, rape - > > > so that we > > > may all be safe. Safe from what? We are producing the ghosts that > > > haunt us. > > > > > > best > > > Aarti > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 6:45 PM, Lalit Ambardar > > > wrote: > > > > > > > By the way, this 'guy' was released on 'technical grounds' > > > only. Even one > > > > of that 'celebrity' senior most criminal lawyers could not get > > > him relieved > > > > of this tag. And yet, he continues with his diatribe > against India. > > > > > > > > And for these 'mobile citizens' they appear to be a confused > > > lot. Here, > > > > they espouse the cause of the pan Islamism driven secessionism > > > in Kashmir & > > > > lo, there they raise an issue on the relationship between the > > > 'land' & 'the > > > > nation'. They have no quarrel with those who thump the 'very > > > land' in > > > > kashmir with their heals ranting 'ragda'....'ragda' implying > > > 'crush India'. > > > > How ironic . Those who do not want to be part of this nation are > > > welcome to > > > > opt for the 'land of the pure' & it quite fits in to the mobile > > > citizens'> theory- you could still love the land (even if one > > > ignores that > > > > stupid 'ragda'....'ragda' thumping....???... ) yet need not > > > posses it. > > > > Regards all > > > > LA > > > > p s : Opposite of 'nation state' can only be 'anarchy' & > > > 'anarchy' can > > > > only lead to 'mayhem' that is so visible in > > > > Kashmir since 1989-90. > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 16:45:02 +0500 > > > > > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > > > > To: aarti.sethi at gmail.com > > > > > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir > > > criticised> > > > > > > Aarti, > > > > > > > > > > we seem to have carried forward of the concept of freedom and > > > rights too > > > > far without realising to be free, we have some responsibility > > > also to the > > > > nation and society that has bestowed upon us the freedom and > > > rights. in fact > > > > the rights have the other side of the coin, that is duties. > > > Without duties > > > > to the society, exercising only rights is like license to behave > > > as any > > > > individual wants, a license to tamper the rights of others in > > > society, it is > > > > license to be irrelevant in a society which has given rights to > > > individuals> to be free. > > > > > > > > > > A Roy, after winning a booker prize and some dollars can > not be > > > > exercising her rights without the responsibilty to the society > > > in which she > > > > lives. If she declares herself as walking and talking republic > > > then she has > > > > every right to say so, but her safety then, solely on her, not > > > on the > > > > republic of India as she misbehaves in the society that she > > > lives in > > > > > > > > > > A Geelani when he invokes his right of feee expression, > and as > > > activist> of human rights, he has to be aware of all humans in > > > society when he > > > > supports the terror in jamia nagar. When he stores the ground > > > floor plan of > > > > parliament, he has to be aware that, he is neither an architect > > > nor a civil > > > > engineer and his act can help his terrorist friends. A court may > > > acquit him > > > > of the charges, but citizens look at him with certain > > > apprehension, because > > > > what business he has not to inform of the terror activities that > > > go on in > > > > his neighbourhood. ? Every citizen is police without uniform > for the > > > > society, every police is citizen with uniform. When ghettos of > > > muslims> sheltor, defend the terror accused, the citizens of the > > > nation feel sorry > > > > for ntire community and look with disdain. > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: Aarti Sethi > > > > > Date: Friday, September 19, 2008 4:45 pm > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir > > > criticised> > To: Nazneen Anand Shamsi > > > , sarai list < > > > > reader-list at sarai.net> > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Nazneen, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have no quarrel with love for land at all. And read my > post> > > > > again. I used > > > > > > a specific phrase, I said, 'territorial lust for land'. > Can you > > > > > > love land > > > > > > without possessing it? That is the question. > > > > > > > > > > > > How exactly do you build a relationship with land with > which you > > > > > > have no > > > > > > personal history of settlement or usage? Now obviously > this is > > > > > > both an > > > > > > abstract and a concrete question. I have never been to > Kashmir,> > > > > does this > > > > > > mean I cannot have any relationship to it? Of course > not! The > > > > > > question is > > > > > > what kind of relationship? When I was one year old my father > > > went> > > on a > > > > > > voyage to Antarctica. One of my most favourite memories of > > > > > > childhood is > > > > > > seeing the slides he brought back of the incredible > > > snowscapes and ice > > > > > > sheets, and a rock which lay in a corner of our house for > > > many years. > > > > > > Apparently it was part of a meteor which smashed into > the earth > > > > > > some million > > > > > > years ago. Antarctica is part of no country. Its land is > > > part of > > > > > > the common > > > > > > heritage of humanity, for all to build relationships with. > > > As far > > > > > > as I am > > > > > > concerned this is the only productive, ethical and creative > > > way to > > > > > > think of > > > > > > land. > > > > > > > > > > > > The trouble is being an Indian citizen gives me fictional > > > > > > 'ownership' over > > > > > > the entire territory of India. As if I have some special > > > > > > entitlement to the > > > > > > square miles that are part of the map. But which land, whose > > > land> > > and whose > > > > > > love? Currently there are struggles going on in this country > > > - in > > > > > > singur, in > > > > > > nandigram, in niyamgiri, to name only three sites - > where people > > > > > > are asking > > > > > > this question. Communities it seems have no right to > their own > > > > > > land in the > > > > > > name of "development". And this is fine by your logic is > it not? > > > > > > Because the > > > > > > development of India means that everyone has an > entitlement. All > > > > > > land is the > > > > > > property of the state. When did this come to pass? Can we > > > ask these > > > > > > questions? Or immediately "pills" must be taken to stamp out > > > these> > > viruses?Maybe your love for India entitles you to such > > > a claim, I > > > > > > do not feel this > > > > > > entitlement. And in my opinion this sort of entitlement > is where > > > > > > violence is > > > > > > born. Can you see the quagmire we are in when we begin to > > > collapse> > > lovefor/of land and territorial entitlement? They > > > are not the same > > > > > > thing. > > > > > > What does cheering for the Indian cricket team have to do > > > with the > > > > > > area per > > > > > > square miles of India? Believe me, I am not being > facetious at > > > > > > all. The only > > > > > > reason this sounds idiotic is because we take for > granted the > > > > > > logic of the > > > > > > modern nation state which consists of a sovereign entity > for a > > > > > > territorialunit, with a standing army to defend this > territory.> > > > > This is the first > > > > > > lesson in every graduate political science lecture. And > you are > > > > > > right, the > > > > > > nation state is a fragile concept. So maybe we need to ask > > > > > > ourselves whether > > > > > > this is not causing more trouble than it is worth... > > > > > > > > > > > > Regarding archives and fiction, this is a longer > discussion and > > > > > > tangentialto the point I was making. Of course we may > > > discuss it > > > > > > if you wish. But just > > > > > > to clarify what I was saying, I can claim the heritage > of the > > > > > > whole world as > > > > > > my own. There is an old humanist saying "the world is my > > > home" and > > > > > > i think > > > > > > there is something of tremendous value here. But there are > > > several> > > ways in > > > > > > which history and heritage can be claimed. One way seems > to be > > > > > > logic of > > > > > > subsuming everything, all forms of life and love and > affection> > > > > into the > > > > > > rubric of the nation and to stamp out violently any > persons or > > > > > > forms of life > > > > > > which fall out of this. I am afraid this is too violent and > > > boring> > > for me. > > > > > > > > > > > > regards > > > > > > Aarti > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 3:47 PM, Nazneen Anand Shamsi < > > > > > > nazoshmasi at googlemail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Aarti, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please explain how many years constitute a > civilization? For > > > > > > that matter, > > > > > > > please elucidate the relationship between temporal > continuity> > > > > and a concept, > > > > > > > if any? Why should 'pride in being Indian' exclude > love for > > > > > > land? As far as > > > > > > > history books are concerned, I would ask, who is to decide > > > which> > > fiction of > > > > > > > the archives is valid? Nation state is a fragile > concept, and > > > > > > whats wrong > > > > > > > in subduing those who make it more vulnerable? To not to > > > do so > > > > > > is I think > > > > > > > not allow one to take a pill if one is afflicted by a > minor> > > > > virus and hope > > > > > > > that the body will cope on its own...it is ridiculous > > > isn't it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nazo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 9:39 AM, Aarti Sethi > > > > > > wrote:> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > The signatories assert that "Kashmir is an inalienable > > > > > > element of > > > > > > >> India's > > > > > > >> > civilisational identity and symbolises the fundamental > > > > > > principles on > > > > > > >> which > > > > > > >> > the modern Indian state has been built." Terming > national> > > > > will as a > > > > > > >> > critical > > > > > > >> > component of state power, they felt that "devious > > > > > > adversaries" have > > > > > > >> > resorted > > > > > > >> > to psychological warfare in order to break the national > > > will.> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> What is India's 'civilizational identity'? Does 60 years > > > > > > constitute a > > > > > > >> 'civilization'? The point is, that to even raise this > > > question is > > > > > > >> "sedition". As if those who ask this question are somehow > > > naive> > > deluded>> juvile people. Does 'pride in being Indian', > > > whatever> > > that is, have to be > > > > > > >> coupled with a territorial lust for land? I don't think > > > so. Our > > > > > > >> imaginations > > > > > > >> and affections surely encompass more than the nation. > And in > > > > > > fact they do, > > > > > > >> that is my point. Read any history book taught in > school. We > > > > > > are so > > > > > > >> willing > > > > > > >> so claim 2,000 years of history as 'Indian history', > but that > > > > > > history>> becomes 'Indian history' only 60 years ago. The > > > march of > > > > > > history does not > > > > > > >> cut some straight and true swath from Ashoka to > Nehru, as if > > > > > > 2,000 years > > > > > > >> of > > > > > > >> history is the long unfolding of the story of the 'Indian > > > > > > nation'. Why is > > > > > > >> this so scary to concieve is what I don't understand. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Nations are not god-given entities. They are historically > > > > > > produced units > > > > > > >> of > > > > > > >> social organisation. Which is not to say they are of > no value > > > > > > or that they > > > > > > >> have never played a progressive role. Or that we must > > > have no > > > > > > investment>> in > > > > > > >> them. But its alright to question and query the > nation. There > > > > > > is nothing > > > > > > >> divine about it. Its not 'immoral'. People who are asking > > > these> > > questions>> are not 'bad people', 'enemies of India'. > > > > > > >> People who are asking today questions about Kashmir's > future> > > > > and its > > > > > > >> relationship with India are asking us to think deeply and > > > hard> > > about how > > > > > > >> India defines her/its identity. This is a good > question, it > > > > > > would help us > > > > > > >> all to spend some time on it. It is possible to think > > > > > > creatively at this > > > > > > >> moment about the very many ways in which Kashmir can > > > relate to > > > > > > India.>> There > > > > > > >> has been some discussion of those ways on this list > itself.> > > > > Various kinds > > > > > > >> of > > > > > > >> autonomy arrangements, of porous borders, many things > can be > > > > > > thought>> through. But to deign all such conversations as > > > > > > "seditious" is no way to > > > > > > >> go > > > > > > >> anywhere. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> best > > > > > > >> A > > > > > > >> _________________________________________ > > > > > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city.> > > > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > > > request at sarai.net with > > > > > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > >> To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > >> List archive: > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > > > with> > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > > > > list > > > > > > List archive: list/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > list> > List archive: list/>> > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Hottest news and in-depth analysis that goes beyond the > > > headlines. Only on > > > > MSN News Check it out! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From nazoshmasi at googlemail.com Sat Sep 20 16:55:04 2008 From: nazoshmasi at googlemail.com (Nazneen Anand Shamsi) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 12:25:04 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Today's "media circus" at Jamia In-Reply-To: References: <622636.12444.qm@web51412.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <48c2916d0809200229x2c8cc730y991289b7837db920@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <169ff67c0809200425x1136ee4ft3ffcc71cb059c0d6@mail.gmail.com> Dear Aarti, This is not with respect to this or that incident. I would like to make a general comment regarding, state and statecraft. Please tell me what is wrong in devising categories to mark a population in order to rule them? What is the great moral dilemma in bumping off few of them here to keeep the official fiction alive? Many of our friends take a position or a point of view on the reader list because perhaps they are in a position of privilege to do so? So by producing a list a dissenters and hence personalizing discourse on dissent, a Shuddhabrata, can very easily make a poignant emotional appeal, but tell me, do you believe that, a nation or any nation can merely run on such emotional exercises rooted in deliberation alone. Apropos angst about 'media circus'. Tell me Aarti, what was a Ramayana or a Mahabharata or a Karbala is if not like a great 'media circus' of an epic scale. Such imagery, such poetry, such fine use of metaphors. So much so that every time I read these texts I am overwhelmed with the sheer exquisiteness of language and craft. Or for instance what was Vietnam war if not a great 'media circus' which swung the other way after an image of wailing Paris was published on 8th June 1972. The point being, I think 'media circus' is a neccesary condition for state and statehood. The state as we know and recognise and critque now, grew out of anarchy. It may not have been 'a state of nature' in the strictest of Lockean sense but nevertheless, I think, it need its 'circuses' to give us, a sense of identity, a sense of involvement and a sense of purpose. Howsoever fractured or precarious it may be. Regards Nazo On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 10:48 AM, wrote: > Aarti, > Praveen Togadia, mutalik and many such like Bajrangi and mahendra kumar > are not in hiding, they are openly living unlike a basher, atiq and dawwood > Ibrahim.Worst, togadias roaming freely in India in all the states , both > ruled by all the political parties. If law needs them to be arrested they do > not have the luxury of minority rights commisssion jumpimg to their > statements.! > > But a geelani , yasin malik has aarti and many more to defend them solely > on "technical" grounds.Oscar fernandes who went to Mangalore just three days > before the rackus happened,in mangalore, had not visited the constituency > after his defeat some ages ago, why the sudden visit. ? Maggi alwa after > losing loksabha poll, in adjacent seat, has been cozily in Sonia darbar for > over 8 years, now she is in Mangalore , ofcourse with mahila rights > activists and chief of mahila commissin is accompanying her.! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Aarti Sethi > Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008 3:00 pm > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Today's "media circus" at Jamia > To: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > Cc: Yousuf , sarai list , Sanjhi > Virasat > > > tell you what radhika, why don't you make a deal alright? You > > isolate and > > capture Praveen Togadia and hand him over to the police. And then > > we can ask > > our Muslim friends to hand over any terrorist friends they might > > have to the > > law. Sunds perfectly fair to me. What do you say? Should I be > > sending a van > > over now? Let us know when you've got him. And of course, the > > leaders of the > > VHP in Orissa. There's no point wasting anymore time. The sooner > > you can > > isolate them and hand them over to the law, the sooner we can get > > our Muslim > > friends on the job for their end of the bargain. > > > > > > thanks > > A > > > > On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 2:47 PM, wrote: > > > > > When do this muslim community accept the laws of the land and > > behave with > > > the nation. It is always seen, if the plice went even for > > interrogation,> inquiry, the immediate hell breaks loose with > > allegation of "targetiing' and > > > harassment of muslims. Why can not this community identify, > > isolate and hand > > > over the deviant of their community to law. ? > > > > > > Anyway, even if that happens we have judges in highest court > > who ave > > > passed judgements in record minutes. Recently, chief judge of > > karnataka> passed 56 judgements in seventy minutes with six breaks > > in between, and then > > > got promoted to Supreme court.! By the way, some of the > > judgements were in > > > direct contradiction of SC judgements such as use of english > > mediumin> schools which had yaken prmission to functionas kannada > > medium schools. > > > Ofcourse one bird told me that each school had contributed as > > farewell gift > > > , three thousand schools, 10 K each, great parting gift to this > > judge.?> > > > because even if appeal comes to supreme court, my hoon na. ? > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Yousuf > > > Date: Friday, September 19, 2008 8:26 pm > > > Subject: [Reader-list] Today's "media circus" at Jamia > > > To: sarai list , Sanjhi Virasat < > > > sanjhi_virasat at yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > Friends > > > > I have titled this message the "media circus", although I am > > > > actually referring to this morning's so-called encounter killing > > > > of two young people referred to as "terrorists" in L-18 Batla > > > > House, Jamia Nagar, by the Delhi police. I call it media circus > > > > because that's what I think it really is, like many more such > > > > incidents. > > > > > > > > The incident happened in my neigbourhood, about 150 meters > > from my > > > > house. So I have the opportunity to see how things are turning up. > > > > I had gone out of the area for some work while the incident was > > > > taking place around 11 am, but found it impossible to reach back > > > > home 2 hours later, because the road for about 1 and a half > > > > kilometer (on both sides) was completely blocked, not by the > > > > police vehicles, but by the parked OB vans of the countless TV > > > > channels, some of which I never heard of before. Each of these > > > > vehicles had its generators on, and thick video cables jetting out > > > > of them for several meters to the other end where the cameraperson > > > > and the excited anchor were shouting how two terrorists have been > > > > killed in the fierce encounter. Most local people are > > surprised at > > > > the speed with which the TV crews arrived here and in such large > > > > number. Apparently, the Delhi Police had already told a > > section of > > > > the press they are going for a raid in Batla House, based > > > > on the suspect Abu Bashir's tip-off (I heard this from a anchor > > > > on Times NOW channel, although Police chief Dadwal is now denying > > > > there is any link with Abu Bashir), but they didn't obviously say > > > > it was going to be an encounter. Its strange that the local > > > > residents got to know about the incident only after the two people > > > > had been killed – many in fact learnt it from the Aaj-tak channel. > > > > They claim they heard only the police firing and no gunshots from > > > > inside the flat, which the police claim have injured two of their > > > > constables. > > > > Most of you watching news TV in your homes may have already heard > > > > the cacophony of the TV anchors, each trying to be shriller than > > > > the other to prove that the local members of the Indian Mujahideen > > > > have been killed. They now seem to have memorized their lines on > > > > this issue well, since they have to repeat the same thing again > > > > and again. The graphics, animated logos, crawling tickers, and > > > > dramatic music/soundtrack to go with such coverage are always > > > > ready in the cans to be used at short notice. A cameraman running > > > > towards Batla House is nibbling at a burger while he holds on > > to a > > > > camera in his other hand. I saw two members of a TV crew outside > > > > the Holy Family Hospital (where the injured policemen have been > > > > taken) fiercely fight about which camera angle would look best for > > > > a sound byte. Everything looks as if planned and part of the usual > > > > business. The cops are happily allowing the media to climb any > > > > wall to get the best shot while they beat the local > > > > rickshawpullers to leave the roads clean. The message has got > > > > across loud and clear: we told you – Batla House is a haven of > > > > terrorists. > > > > But many things sound fishy. I've been hearing a lot of angry > > > > conversations in the neighborhood: people are asking that if the > > > > police had only planned a simple raid (which they did 2 days ago > > > > in Zakir Nagar and Abul Fazl Enclave too), why did they have to > > > > bring battalions of police and encounter specialists with AK-56 > > > > and other deadly looking guns (that I myself saw) in advance. And > > > > why is the media called in even before the residents are told. Of > > > > course the fact the this happens in the month of Ramzan, on a > > > > Friday, and near a large mosque where people were going to gather > > > > in large numbers later for prayers, sounds just too predictable > > > > and clichéd for anyone's imagination. Some locals claim that the > > > > police had been visiting this place (and that particular house) > > > > since last few days, and the so-called terrorists and their > > > > weapons were probably "planted" last night for this encounter. > > > > This claim would obviously find no takers in the presently > > > > created euphoria (did you see any channel showing a sound byte to > > > > this affect?) I didn't find a single local resident who is not fed > > > > up with this oft-repeated image of Jamia Nagar as harboring > > > > terrorists. But none of the channels I saw aired the public angst > > > > against their portrayal. > > > > > > > > To be honest, one shouldn't deny that the Batla House area has > > > > some criminal and anti-social elements, just as Darya Ganj or > > > > Shahadra or Govindpuri would have. But most local residents > > > > believe that for Jamia to become a haven of such criminal > > > > elements, the local police and land-mafia are equally responsible. > > > > Jamia area is one of the rare localities of Delhi where the rule > > > > of law doesn't apply in most spheres. The land mafia openly > > > > indulges in illegal construction; no rules of traffic apply here, > > > > the condition of civic amenities is abysmal. Illegal shops, > > > > factories (many with child labour) and businesses operate here > > > > actively with police connivance. The local politicians (MLA, > > > > councilors) are actually part of the problem rather than the > > > > solution. There is a full-scale illegal ISBT (bus stand) running > > > > in Batla House's backyard to bring hundreds of migrants everyday > > > > from small towns of UP (you can see the police openly accepting > > > > bribe from its > > > > operators any day). > > > > > > > > There is no question of sealing whatever the heck business you may > > > > run here, and most places stink with heaps of garbage everywhere. > > > > There are no RWAs or citizen's initiatives to discuss the > > > > problems. It is truly a manufactured ghetto of Delhi – why don't > > > > all these problems happen in Lajpat Nagar or Kalkaji? I am > > > > positive that the authorities are aware that criminals (or what > > > > they call terrorists) exist here. But they deliberately allow them > > > > to thrive here – never to be touched in the normal/peaceful times > > > > – keep them for the right time. It is as if Batla House is a > > > > laboratory or breeding ground where things are allowed to grow by > > > > providing all the required ingredients and safety. The fruits are > > > > plucked only when they are ripe (or required). So today, they > > > > simply came to gather the fruit they had sown, and made a big > > > > exhibition of it by calling the media. The local people, > > > > frightened that the next encounter may happen in their house, > > simply> > squirm and hide in their personal ghettos. > > > > > > > > In all this, a big responsibility lies with the media, and I am > > > > yet to come across bold and honest reporters who are ready to go > > > > beyond the obvious and investigate the truth – not simply repeat > > > > what is told to them by the authorities or their channel bosses. > > > > > > > > Yousuf Saeed > > > > September 19, 2008 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > > list > > > > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From jha.srirang at gmail.com Sat Sep 20 17:03:19 2008 From: jha.srirang at gmail.com (srirang jha) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 17:03:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Media Circus and Beyond! Message-ID: *Dear All, * I read 'Media Circus at Jamia' and subsequent comments. Interestingly, all of us crave for truth. And yet criticize media. While we are dicussing the issue of encounter at L-18, we are using online media. And no one has any problem. But when TV channles try to provide minute by minute account of any event/accident/mishap/genocide/encounter etc. we are bothered. We are more bothered becuase in a particular case, it reinforces a defined "stereotype". My dear friend Dr Shams Eqbal, Urdu Editor, National Book Trust, Delhi lives in that area. And he had expressed his angst three-four years ago. He said that no one knows when anyone's house may be raided by the police. He said that many law-abiding and pious Muslims stay in that area. It is evident from the fact that the owner of L-18 had let out his house only after getting the poice verification of the tenants done. In the TV, the local citizens' anger against the police action during Ramadan was also shown which Yusuf may have missed. Immdeiate reaction of the the community may be due to the grudge held by Shams (and many others). The grudge against police may also be the result of usual inaction and corruption in the police establishment. But then, we must appreciate the role of Media which reached the site and provided every bit of information about the encounter. It is thanks to the Media that police actions, police inaction and police excesses are exposed. If Media stops functioning, people would not know about any human rights violations. So if we are interested in a report on Human Rights violations, we must have the guts to see the police action against the "conspirators" of Delhi blast. Every conscientious citizen of Delhi, whether Muslim or Hindu, must be interested in knowing what the police is doing. And Media was just doing that. In the process, if it casused a little inconvenience to the local community, it should bear it with patience rather than expressing angst. It is not the routine raid that Shams is annoyed of. It is an extra-ordinary situation. Second thing that I wanted to say is that whenever such incidents as riots, bombing, genocide, etc occur, we (intellectuals of both the communities) try to justify or at least cover up the act by inventing appropriate rationale. And this is why we loose sense of objective reality. That has happened to the author of 'Media Circus'. We need to understand the roots of terrorism and casuses of stereotyping. The Muslim intellectuals can use this (Delhi Bomb Blast) as an opportunity to debunk the stereotype by speaking in one voice against terrorism and fundamentalism. They are often misunderstood as they start talking about Human Rights and draw a rationale on the basis of some past incident (as if they intend to justify the acts of terrorists!). Again, it is possible that the Muslim intellectuals may say that why should they take initiatives when the Hindu intellectuals are sitting idle? (I am using Muslim and Hindu prefixes just for convenience implying the religion they follow rather than suggesting any fundamentalist overtones). So we need to introspect why our youth are loosing the righteous path and trying to achieve an impossibel task (such as establishing an Islamic State as per SIMI objectives)by means of a wrong roadmap (bombing)? I invite all the intellectuals to consider what can we do to save our nation from all sorts of fundamentalist and terrorist forces? Can we really move beyond criticizing the media, the police, the state, the religious institutions, the unknown forces? I am myself a victim of the Delhi Blast. And I am looking for an objective reality. Few of my dear friends who happen to be muslims -Qamar Javed (Dehradun), Md. Firoz (Dubai), Nasiha Munib (Pune), Faruque Ali (Bhagalpur) and many others are concerned. Please do something so that the scenario of distrust does not develop. Best Regards, Srirang Jha From nazoshmasi at googlemail.com Sat Sep 20 17:12:59 2008 From: nazoshmasi at googlemail.com (Nazneen Anand Shamsi) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 12:42:59 +0100 Subject: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0809200209r45db4222y10920e7515bddb76@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690809182021u4fb74001g9064d3fa5b8b2c6f@mail.gmail.com> <169ff67c0809190317o72d3ee9l3b502a73561d1372@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809190414g6ce8861eq441fa7d5d609bd32@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809191232u65c82564lee7992d112a4cb6@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809200209r45db4222y10920e7515bddb76@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <169ff67c0809200442r540cfd70l9518587f83a48990@mail.gmail.com> Dear Aarti, This is not with respect to this or that incident. I would like to make a general comment regarding, state and statecraft. Please tell me what is wrong in devising categories to mark a population in order to rule them? What is the great moral dilemma in bumping off few of them here to keeep the official fiction alive? Many of our friends take a position or a point of view on the reader list because perhaps they are in a position of privilege to do so? So by producing a list a dissenters and hence personalizing discourse on dissent, a Shuddhabrata, can very easily make a poignant emotional appeal, but tell me, do you believe that, a nation or any nation can merely run on such emotional exercises rooted in deliberation alone. Apropos angst about 'media circus'. Tell me Aarti, what was a Ramayana or a Mahabharata or a Karbala is if not like a great 'media circus' of an epic scale. Such imagery, such poetry, such fine use of metaphors. So much so that every time I read these texts I am overwhelmed with the sheer exquisiteness of language and craft. Or for instance what was Vietnam war if not a great 'media circus' which swung the other way after an image of wailing Paris was published on 8th June 1972. The point being, I think 'media circus' is a neccesary condition for state and statehood. The state as we know and recognise and critque now, grew out of anarchy. It may not have been 'a state of nature' in the strictest of Lockean sense but nevertheless, I think, it need its 'circuses' to give us, a sense of identity, a sense of involvement and a sense of purpose. Howsoever fractured or precarious it may be. Regards Nazo On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 10:09 AM, Aarti Sethi wrote: > Dear Lalit, > > I have never questioned yours or anyone else's attachment to Kashmir or > said > it was invalid. I am sure you feel a great deal for what you have left > behind and I respect that, as I am sure does everyone else on this list. > The > fact that you are unable to live there must cause you tremendous sorrow and > it is a terrible tragedy. I was making a point about the sort of attachment > it is possible for me to have, which is of an entirely different order. > > Having said that, I'm not sure how you are making the rest of the > connections in your response. > > > > > > It wasn't the case of 'no evidence' but 'insufficient evidence' & we all > > respect the judicial verdict- 'released' even though on 'technical > grounds' > > only. > > > > I am not sure what the scare quotes are meant to achieve. Scare quotes are > normally used to qualify, or question, the validity of a word or phrase. So > 'released' makes no sense, because he was in fact acquitted. There is no > room for doubt about this. Again I am unable to understand what 'even > though > on technical grounds only' is supposed to mean. There are no OTHER grounds > on which acquittals are made. People are only ever acquitted on technical > grounds. Evidence is a technicality of the judicial process. When there is > no evidence linking someone to an event, then they are acquitted. I am > unable to understand what you find so confusing about this. Its really > quite > simple in this case. > > I do not suppose we can ever imagine what a nightmare SAR Geelani must have > gone through. But I think we should be a little more respectful of things > we > are lucky we have not had occasion to experience. > > best > Aarti > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 01:02:06 +0530 > > From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com > > To: lalitambardar at hotmail.com > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised > > CC: radhikarajen at vsnl.net; reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > > > > Dear Lalit, > > > > Yes he was released on "technical" grounds. The "technical" grounds that > > the law acquits people on, namely on the utter lack of any evidence > linking > > him to the parliament attack. I know the fact that someone is innocent is > a > > flimsy excuse in your book because it would be much better to hang him > > nonetheless and "salve the conscience of the nation", however you will be > > surprised to know that evidence of culpability is actually pretty central > to > > the judicial process. Unfortunately, it is not simply enough for you to > > believe that Geelani was behind the attack, it has to be proved. It has > not > > been proved. There is no evidence at all. > > > > I have said this before on this list, and I am saying it again - terror, > > whether by agents acting against the state and terror by the state are > > mirrors of each other. Monstrous shadows that seemingly confront each > other > > in a relationship of tense alterity. And who is to say which is which and > > who is whom? > > > > In the times in which we live we will be asked again and again to suspend > > our sense of justice, of ethical responsibility in the name of national > > security, of fighting terror. To justify everything - fake encounters, > > arrest without warrants, torture, detention on suspicion, rape - so that > we > > may all be safe. Safe from what? We are producing the ghosts that haunt > us. > > > > best > > Aarti > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 6:45 PM, Lalit Ambardar < > lalitambardar at hotmail.com > > > wrote: > > > > By the way, this 'guy' was released on 'technical grounds' only. Even > one > > of that 'celebrity' senior most criminal lawyers could not get him > relieved > > of this tag. And yet, he continues with his diatribe against India. > > > > And for these 'mobile citizens' they appear to be a confused lot. Here, > > they espouse the cause of the pan Islamism driven secessionism in > Kashmir & > > lo, there they raise an issue on the relationship between the 'land' & > 'the > > nation'. They have no quarrel with those who thump the 'very land' in > > kashmir with their heals ranting 'ragda'....'ragda' implying 'crush > India'. > > How ironic . Those who do not want to be part of this nation are welcome > to > > opt for the 'land of the pure' & it quite fits in to the mobile > citizens' > > theory- you could still love the land (even if one ignores that > > stupid 'ragda'....'ragda' thumping....???... ) yet need not posses it. > > Regards all > > LA > > p s : Opposite of 'nation state' can only be 'anarchy' & 'anarchy' can > > only lead to 'mayhem' that is so visible in > > Kashmir since 1989-90. > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 16:45:02 +0500 > > > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > > To: aarti.sethi at gmail.com > > > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised > > > > > > Aarti, > > > > > > we seem to have carried forward of the concept of freedom and rights > too > > far without realising to be free, we have some responsibility also to the > > nation and society that has bestowed upon us the freedom and rights. in > fact > > the rights have the other side of the coin, that is duties. Without > duties > > to the society, exercising only rights is like license to behave as any > > individual wants, a license to tamper the rights of others in society, it > is > > license to be irrelevant in a society which has given rights to > individuals > > to be free. > > > > > > A Roy, after winning a booker prize and some dollars can not be > > exercising her rights without the responsibilty to the society in which > she > > lives. If she declares herself as walking and talking republic then she > has > > every right to say so, but her safety then, solely on her, not on the > > republic of India as she misbehaves in the society that she lives in > > > > > > A Geelani when he invokes his right of feee expression, and as activist > > of human rights, he has to be aware of all humans in society when he > > supports the terror in jamia nagar. When he stores the ground floor plan > of > > parliament, he has to be aware that, he is neither an architect nor a > civil > > engineer and his act can help his terrorist friends. A court may acquit > him > > of the charges, but citizens look at him with certain apprehension, > because > > what business he has not to inform of the terror activities that go on in > > his neighbourhood. ? Every citizen is police without uniform for the > > society, every police is citizen with uniform. When ghettos of muslims > > sheltor, defend the terror accused, the citizens of the nation feel sorry > > for ntire community and look with disdain. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Aarti Sethi > > > Date: Friday, September 19, 2008 4:45 pm > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised > > > To: Nazneen Anand Shamsi , sarai list < > > reader-list at sarai.net> > > > > > > > Dear Nazneen, > > > > > > > > > > > > I have no quarrel with love for land at all. And read my post > > > > again. I used > > > > a specific phrase, I said, 'territorial lust for land'. Can you > > > > love land > > > > without possessing it? That is the question. > > > > > > > > How exactly do you build a relationship with land with which you > > > > have no > > > > personal history of settlement or usage? Now obviously this is > > > > both an > > > > abstract and a concrete question. I have never been to Kashmir, > > > > does this > > > > mean I cannot have any relationship to it? Of course not! The > > > > question is > > > > what kind of relationship? When I was one year old my father went > > > > on a > > > > voyage to Antarctica. One of my most favourite memories of > > > > childhood is > > > > seeing the slides he brought back of the incredible snowscapes and > ice > > > > sheets, and a rock which lay in a corner of our house for many years. > > > > Apparently it was part of a meteor which smashed into the earth > > > > some million > > > > years ago. Antarctica is part of no country. Its land is part of > > > > the common > > > > heritage of humanity, for all to build relationships with. As far > > > > as I am > > > > concerned this is the only productive, ethical and creative way to > > > > think of > > > > land. > > > > > > > > The trouble is being an Indian citizen gives me fictional > > > > 'ownership' over > > > > the entire territory of India. As if I have some special > > > > entitlement to the > > > > square miles that are part of the map. But which land, whose land > > > > and whose > > > > love? Currently there are struggles going on in this country - in > > > > singur, in > > > > nandigram, in niyamgiri, to name only three sites - where people > > > > are asking > > > > this question. Communities it seems have no right to their own > > > > land in the > > > > name of "development". And this is fine by your logic is it not? > > > > Because the > > > > development of India means that everyone has an entitlement. All > > > > land is the > > > > property of the state. When did this come to pass? Can we ask these > > > > questions? Or immediately "pills" must be taken to stamp out these > > > > viruses?Maybe your love for India entitles you to such a claim, I > > > > do not feel this > > > > entitlement. And in my opinion this sort of entitlement is where > > > > violence is > > > > born. Can you see the quagmire we are in when we begin to collapse > > > > lovefor/of land and territorial entitlement? They are not the same > > > > thing. > > > > What does cheering for the Indian cricket team have to do with the > > > > area per > > > > square miles of India? Believe me, I am not being facetious at > > > > all. The only > > > > reason this sounds idiotic is because we take for granted the > > > > logic of the > > > > modern nation state which consists of a sovereign entity for a > > > > territorialunit, with a standing army to defend this territory. > > > > This is the first > > > > lesson in every graduate political science lecture. And you are > > > > right, the > > > > nation state is a fragile concept. So maybe we need to ask > > > > ourselves whether > > > > this is not causing more trouble than it is worth... > > > > > > > > Regarding archives and fiction, this is a longer discussion and > > > > tangentialto the point I was making. Of course we may discuss it > > > > if you wish. But just > > > > to clarify what I was saying, I can claim the heritage of the > > > > whole world as > > > > my own. There is an old humanist saying "the world is my home" and > > > > i think > > > > there is something of tremendous value here. But there are several > > > > ways in > > > > which history and heritage can be claimed. One way seems to be > > > > logic of > > > > subsuming everything, all forms of life and love and affection > > > > into the > > > > rubric of the nation and to stamp out violently any persons or > > > > forms of life > > > > which fall out of this. I am afraid this is too violent and boring > > > > for me. > > > > > > > > regards > > > > Aarti > > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 3:47 PM, Nazneen Anand Shamsi < > > > > nazoshmasi at googlemail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Dear Aarti, > > > > > > > > > > Please explain how many years constitute a civilization? For > > > > that matter, > > > > > please elucidate the relationship between temporal continuity > > > > and a concept, > > > > > if any? Why should 'pride in being Indian' exclude love for > > > > land? As far as > > > > > history books are concerned, I would ask, who is to decide which > > > > fiction of > > > > > the archives is valid? Nation state is a fragile concept, and > > > > whats wrong > > > > > in subduing those who make it more vulnerable? To not to do so > > > > is I think > > > > > not allow one to take a pill if one is afflicted by a minor > > > > virus and hope > > > > > that the body will cope on its own...it is ridiculous isn't it? > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > Nazo > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 9:39 AM, Aarti Sethi > > > > wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > The signatories assert that "Kashmir is an inalienable > > > > element of > > > > >> India's > > > > >> > civilisational identity and symbolises the fundamental > > > > principles on > > > > >> which > > > > >> > the modern Indian state has been built." Terming national > > > > will as a > > > > >> > critical > > > > >> > component of state power, they felt that "devious > > > > adversaries" have > > > > >> > resorted > > > > >> > to psychological warfare in order to break the national will. > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> What is India's 'civilizational identity'? Does 60 years > > > > constitute a > > > > >> 'civilization'? The point is, that to even raise this question is > > > > >> "sedition". As if those who ask this question are somehow naive > > > > deluded>> juvile people. Does 'pride in being Indian', whatever > > > > that is, have to be > > > > >> coupled with a territorial lust for land? I don't think so. Our > > > > >> imaginations > > > > >> and affections surely encompass more than the nation. And in > > > > fact they do, > > > > >> that is my point. Read any history book taught in school. We > > > > are so > > > > >> willing > > > > >> so claim 2,000 years of history as 'Indian history', but that > > > > history>> becomes 'Indian history' only 60 years ago. The march of > > > > history does not > > > > >> cut some straight and true swath from Ashoka to Nehru, as if > > > > 2,000 years > > > > >> of > > > > >> history is the long unfolding of the story of the 'Indian > > > > nation'. Why is > > > > >> this so scary to concieve is what I don't understand. > > > > >> > > > > >> Nations are not god-given entities. They are historically > > > > produced units > > > > >> of > > > > >> social organisation. Which is not to say they are of no value > > > > or that they > > > > >> have never played a progressive role. Or that we must have no > > > > investment>> in > > > > >> them. But its alright to question and query the nation. There > > > > is nothing > > > > >> divine about it. Its not 'immoral'. People who are asking these > > > > questions>> are not 'bad people', 'enemies of India'. > > > > >> People who are asking today questions about Kashmir's future > > > > and its > > > > >> relationship with India are asking us to think deeply and hard > > > > about how > > > > >> India defines her/its identity. This is a good question, it > > > > would help us > > > > >> all to spend some time on it. It is possible to think > > > > creatively at this > > > > >> moment about the very many ways in which Kashmir can relate to > > > > India.>> There > > > > >> has been some discussion of those ways on this list itself. > > > > Various kinds > > > > >> of > > > > >> autonomy arrangements, of porous borders, many things can be > > > > thought>> through. But to deign all such conversations as > > > > "seditious" is no way to > > > > >> go > > > > >> anywhere. > > > > >> > > > > >> best > > > > >> A > > > > >> _________________________________________ > > > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > > > >> To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > >> List archive: > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > > list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Hottest news and in-depth analysis that goes beyond the headlines. Only > on > > MSN News Check it out! > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Get the latest buzz on outsourcing. Up to date information on mergers, > > acquisitions and deals on BPO Watch. Try it now!< > http://www.bpowatchindia.com/default.asp> > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From ambarien at yahoo.co.uk Sat Sep 20 17:15:46 2008 From: ambarien at yahoo.co.uk (ambarien qadar) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 11:45:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] 'Terrorist' encounter at Batla House Message-ID: <439161.25727.qm@web25505.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> I was at the Mass Communication Research Center, Jamia, when the news of the 'encounter' came in. Late into the afternoon, when we were absolutely sure that the gunshots fell silent...(because we were constantly getting 'eyewitness' accounts that two 'terrorists' had been killed and their bodies had been dragged into the PCR van)...I was walking towards Zakir Nagar through Batla House. The road that leads to Batla House from Jamia Nagar was being manned by some six hundred policemen at the turn-about. People in the neighbourhood are now tensed about the possibility of policemen dressed as civilians combing the area. As I walked, I overheard the policemen say.."Ram-Ram bolo..Ram-Ram" . Some of them directly looked into my eye, gun toting and macho-posturing, and muttered some extra words under their breath. Apart from the media battery and police force, the roads were largely deserted. In one of the bylanes, a group of some eight year olds stood awestruck... they believed they had been witnesses to some film shooting. Earlier in the day, their teachers at the Batla House Government School had asked them to leave immediately once the news of the encounter came in. And one of the kids wondered what could have happened if one of the 'terrorists' (out of the two the police claimed had fled)...got into the school and held them at gunpoint? Others said they felt equally scared outside because there was so much chaos, Nobody knew where to go..and what could happen. There was an unmistaken awareness of 'narratives of terror' and the bunch of eight year olds endlessly predicted the outcome. The neighbouhood is far too familiar with circumstances of young men who come to Delhi from remote corners of UP and Bihar to 'build' a life. People here are casting doubts over the operation and claim that Atif was as normal a boy as any twenty-four year old could be...that anyone of them could be easily targetted and made out to be a terrorist in the future. This morning between 8am-9.30am, Headlines Today was running a story about the surrender of Zeeshan (the other 25 yr old student who the police claims is one of the two terrorists who managed to escape)at its headquarters. "His surrender itself raises questions about the claims of the police"...and while we were discussing this, the channel went on to scramble mode..and the transmission stopped. It is still stuck. One hour later, It is a still shot of Atif's elder brother in Headlines Today Studio. In his interview he had said that he did not believe the police claims. I checked all the other channels...nobody was running this story. All of them were mourning the death of Mohan Chand Sharma; the encounter specialist in Delhi Police. Patriotic scores like 'aye mere watan ke logon...' form a poignant backdrop against which a nation is made out to mourn. I am also deeply saddened by his death like everybody else but am wondering how certain other stories that are emerging since yesterday, have been..or will be.. hushed up. From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Sat Sep 20 17:28:50 2008 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 04:58:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Today's "media circus" at Jamia In-Reply-To: <730109.59261.qm@web58001.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <310913.4977.qm@web53606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> If someone is desiring to inquire deeper into the complexity of the whole episode,they have to factor in the death of the police inspector.That was all I wrote and meant.Yousuf said he didn't know about it and I accept that.IF you want to feel some kind of guilt on account of that question,and then explain why you will not be silenced, help yourself. --- On Sat, 9/20/08, shakeb ahmed wrote: > From: shakeb ahmed > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Today's "media circus" at Jamia > To: "Reader List" > Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008, 12:58 PM > To all the friends. > In the wake of the Zakir Nagar Encounter thread a very > funny stance being demanded of people who have a simple > desire to enquire deeper into the complexity of the whole > episode, and hence to make them suddenly feel a guilt that > actually does not belong to them, eventually managing in a > very subtle way to silence them if possible is that they > should attach a coda to all their uncomfortable questions by > attesting to "I 'should factor in that an honest > cop has died' and I respect him (because he died, and my > tv newswallah tells me the number of gallantry awards he won > and the number he was about to win)" What I'll say > and be very firm about is that I dont know who Inspector > Mohan Sharma was and is (strange jingoist portraits of him > on TV being now the only source through which I for the > first time become familiar with his good work or bad > exploits). What is more important in this case for me is > that as somebody who lives very close to this ground zero, I > am > increasing more familiar with the way the inefficiency and > incompetence of our humdrum security forces(and their > subsequent desperate and maybe very dangerous methods of > saving some face!) and hair-brained media would eventually > end up being very successful in routing the fragile dignity > and self respect of this geographical locality. I am more > worried about what motivations these encouncounter > specialist, right or wrong, forced or unforced, work under > or are made to work under; and very similarly what > motivations these young boys (against whom nothing is yet > proved and still the case is almost getting shut with a > definitive verdict in the larger public imagination), right > or wrong, forced or unforced, work under or are made to work > under. I think we should be gravely concerned with the fact > that the criminal absurdity that accompanies such incidents > is left quite unpacked, unprobed, and unaccounted once the > shameless larger media footsoldiers run > sweating to another more grotesque fare in an attempt to > makebelieve their cut into the banal vestiges of reponsible > journalism. > I categorically refuse to say I respect Inspector Mohan > Chand Sharma just as strongly as I say I refuse to > disrespect him - very solely for the reason that I dont know > him! And all the blah media is feeding about gallantry > awards etc...havent we been in knowledge of the decorations > that Daya Naik and other encounter specialist have had > before thier un-decorating begins. > Everybody who is asking the right questions should be > encouraged to throw any demanded Apologist Behaviour in the > face of the more ill informed tv-paper-net-magazine > intellectuals. > > Shakeb > > > --- On Sat, 9/20/08, Yousuf > wrote: > > > From: Yousuf > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Today's "media > circus" at Jamia > > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > , rahul_capri at yahoo.com > > Cc: "sarai list" > , "Peace Initiative" > > > Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008, 1:02 AM > > Friends > > I wanted to make a clarification. When I wrote and > posted > > my message about the media circus (at 8:25 m IST on > 19th > > September), the news about the police Inspector Mohan > Chand > > Sharma was not available to me – I saw it only in > the > > morning. I am saddened by his unfortunate death as > much as I > > would be on the death of other innocent people > affected by > > terror attacks. But the inspector’s death would not > make > > me change much of my message. Please read my mail > again: I > > did not make a claim about this being a fake encounter > – I > > was only expressing the public opinion here - which is > writ > > large if you visit the area. But more importantly I > was > > making two points: (1) the role our media plays in > > strengthening the version of the state and ignoring > the > > public, and (2) how an area like Batla House has been > left > > deliberately (by the authorities) to become a breeding > > ground for criminals which can be cashed when the time > is > > ripe. Can anybody deny these two points? > > > > Yousuf > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 9/20/08, Rahul Asthana > > wrote: > > > > > From: Rahul Asthana > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Today's > "media > > circus" at Jamia > > > To: "Yousuf" , > > "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > > > > Cc: "sarai list" > > > > > Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008, 6:02 AM > > > Did you guys factor in the small detail that a > > policeman > > > has died?Was it to get more ratings for the > > "media > > > circus" ? > > > http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/sep/19del1.htm > > > Mohan Chand Sharma, inspector of the Delhi > [Images] > > Police > > > Special Cell who was critically injured during an > > encounter > > > with Delhi blasts-linked terrorists, died in a > > hospital on > > > Friday evening. > > > > > > "We have lost our best man," Joint > > Commissioner > > > of Police (Special Cell) Karnal Singh told PTI. > > > > > > Forty-one-year-old Sharma, a highly decorated > officer > > who > > > received three bullet injuries in his abdomen, > thigh > > and > > > right arm in the gunbattle at Jamia Nagar in > South > > Delhi, > > > succumbed to his injuries at the Holy Family > hospital > > at 7 > > > pm, doctors attending him said. > > > > > > A recipient of seven gallantry medals, Sharma, > who had > > led > > > the police team against the terrorists wanted in > > connection > > > with the Delhi and Ahmedabad [Images] blasts, > > underwent an > > > operation to remove the bullets from his body. > > > > > > The profusely-bleeding officer was taken to the > > hospital. > > > --- On Sat, 9/20/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > > wrote: > > > > > > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Today's > > "media > > > circus" at Jamia > > > > To: "Yousuf" > > > > > Cc: "sarai list" > > > > > > > Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008, 2:01 AM > > > > Dear Yousuf, > > > > > > > > Many thanks for this post and for sharing > your > > > thoughts on > > > > the 'media > > > > circus'. > > > > > > > > Watching the 'media circus' unfold > on > > > television, I > > > > was appalled at > > > > the manner in which the 'spectacle' > was > > > priming > > > > itself up through the > > > > day. A channel called 'News 24' for > > instance, > > > was > > > > repeatedly > > > > informing us that it 'was the first to > > transmit > > > > pictures of the > > > > encounter' etc, as if it had just won > India > > yet > > > another > > > > sharp- > > > > shooting gold medal in the Olympics. > > > > > > > > A thought that did strike me was, > "'how > > much > > > more > > > > disrespectful can > > > > the blood-lust of this spectacle of a hunt, > get > > to all > > > > those who died > > > > in today's 'Encounter' , be they > > policemen > > > on > > > > duty, or 'alleged' > > > > terrorists ?" > > > > > > > > I think we need to give some serious thought > to > > the > > > fact > > > > that these > > > > days police encounters are actually an > extended > > part > > > of > > > > 'Reality > > > > TV' (which in any case, the entire genre > > should be > > > more > > > > appropriately > > > > called 'Surreality TV'). That seem > > scripted > > > well in > > > > advance. How else > > > > (as you so cogently point out) can one > explain > > the > > > sudden > > > > appearance > > > > of large OB vans, with heavy duty equipment, > > battling > > > heavy > > > > rush hour > > > > traffic, in a congested area like Jamia > Nagar, > > just at > > > the > > > > 'nick of > > > > time'? > > > > > > > > The TV commentators, throughout the day, > referred > > to > > > what > > > > their > > > > 'sources' in the Special Cell, or in > the > > Delhi > > > > Police, told them. I > > > > wondered to what degree the entire > > 'Operation' > > > was > > > > co-scripted, > > > > between these 'sources' and the > newsrooms > > of > > > > Television channels. > > > > There seems something almost monotonously > > repetitive > > > in > > > > these > > > > situations. A strange feeling of Deja-Vu. > > Something > > > tells > > > > me we have > > > > seen this before. Or is it just that I have > > watched > > > way too > > > > much > > > > 'reality' ? > > > > > > > > regards > > > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 19-Sep-08, at 8:25 PM, Yousuf wrote: > > > > > > > > > Friends > > > > > I have titled this message the “media > > > circus”, > > > > although I am > > > > > actually referring to this morning’s > > so-called > > > > encounter killing of > > > > > two young people referred to as > > “terrorists” > > > in > > > > L-18 Batla House, > > > > > Jamia Nagar, by the Delhi police. I > call it > > media > > > > circus because > > > > > that’s what I think it really is, > like > > many > > > more > > > > such incidents. > > > > > > > > > > The incident happened in my > neigbourhood, > > about > > > 150 > > > > meters from my > > > > > house. So I have the opportunity to see > how > > > things are > > > > turning up. > > > > > I had gone out of the area for some > work > > while > > > the > > > > incident was > > > > > taking place around 11 am, but found it > > > impossible to > > > > reach back > > > > > home 2 hours later, because the road > for > > about 1 > > > and a > > > > half > > > > > kilometer (on both sides) was > completely > > blocked, > > > not > > > > by the police > > > > > vehicles, but by the parked OB vans of > the > > > countless > > > > TV channels, > > > > > some of which I never heard of before. > Each > > of > > > these > > > > vehicles had > > > > > its generators on, and thick video > cables > > jetting > > > out > > > > of them for > > > > > several meters to the other end where > the > > > cameraperson > > > > and the > > > > > excited anchor were shouting how two > > terrorists > > > have > > > > been killed in > > > > > the fierce encounter. Most local people > are > > > surprised > > > > at the speed > > > > > with which the TV crews arrived here > and in > > such > > > large > > > > number. > > > > > Apparently, the Delhi Police had > already > > told a > > > > section of the > > > > > press they are going for a raid in > Batla > > House, > > > based > > > > > on the suspect Abu Bashir’s tip-off > (I > > heard > > > this > > > > from a anchor on > > > > > Times NOW channel, although Police > chief > > Dadwal > > > is now > > > > denying > > > > > there is any link with Abu Bashir), but > they > > > didn’t > > > > obviously say > > > > > it was going to be an encounter. Its > strange > > that > > > the > > > > local > > > > > residents got to know about the > incident > > only > > > after > > > > the two people > > > > > had been killed – many in fact learnt > it > > from > > > the > > > > Aaj-tak channel. > > > > > They claim they heard only the police > firing > > and > > > no > > > > gunshots from > > > > > inside the flat, which the police claim > have > > > injured > > > > two of their > > > > > constables. > > > > > > > > > > Most of you watching news TV in your > homes > > may > > > have > > > > already heard > > > > > the cacophony of the TV anchors, each > trying > > to > > > be > > > > shriller than > > > > > the other to prove that the local > members of > > the > > > > Indian Mujahideen > > > > > have been killed. They now seem to have > > memorized > > > > their lines on > > > > > this issue well, since they have to > repeat > > the > > > same > > > > thing again and > > > > > again. The graphics, animated logos, > > crawling > > > tickers, > > > > and dramatic > > > > > music/soundtrack to go with such > coverage > > are > > > always > > > > ready in the > > > > > cans to be used at short notice. A > cameraman > > > running > > > > towards Batla > > > > > House is nibbling at a burger while he > holds > > on > > > to a > > > > camera in his > > > > > other hand. I saw two members of a TV > crew > > > outside the > > > > Holy Family > > > > > Hospital (where the injured policemen > have > > been > > > taken) > > > > fiercely > > > > > fight about which camera angle would > look > > best > > > for a > > > > sound byte. > > > > > Everything looks as if planned and part > of > > the > > > usual > > > > business. The > > > > > cops are happily allowing the media to > climb > > any > > > wall > > > > to get the > > > > > best shot while they beat the local > > > > > rickshawpullers to leave the roads > clean. > > The > > > message > > > > has got > > > > > across loud and clear: we told you – > Batla > > > House is > > > > a haven of > > > > > terrorists. > > > > > > > > > > But many things sound fishy. I’ve > been > > hearing > > > a lot > > > > of angry > > > > > conversations in the neighborhood: > people > > are > > > asking > > > > that if the > > > > > police had only planned a simple raid > (which > > they > > > did > > > > 2 days ago in > > > > > Zakir Nagar and Abul Fazl Enclave too), > why > > did > > > they > > > > have to bring > > > > > battalions of police and encounter > > specialists > > > with > > > > AK-56 and other > > > > > deadly looking guns (that I myself saw) > in > > > advance. > > > > And why is the > > > > > media called in even before the > residents > > are > > > told. Of > > > > course the > > > > > fact the this happens in the month of > > Ramzan, on > > > a > > > > Friday, and near > > > > > a large mosque where people were going > to > > gather > > > in > > > > large numbers > > > > > later for prayers, sounds just too > > predictable > > > and > > > > clichéd for > > > > > anyone’s imagination. Some locals > claim > > that > > > the > > > > police had been > > > > > visiting this place (and that > particular > > house) > > > since > > > > last few > > > > > days, and the so-called terrorists and > their > > > weapons > > > > were probably > > > > > “planted” last night for this > encounter. > > This > > > > claim would obviously > > > > > find no takers in the presently > > > > > created euphoria (did you see any > channel > > > showing a > > > > sound byte to > > > > > this affect?) I didn’t find a single > local > > > resident > > > > who is not fed > > > > > up with this oft-repeated image of > Jamia > > Nagar as > > > > harboring > > > > > terrorists. But none of the channels I > saw > > aired > > > the > > > > public angst > > > > > against their portrayal. > > > > > > > > > > To be honest, one shouldn’t deny that > the > > Batla > > > > House area has some > > > > > criminal and anti-social elements, just > as > > Darya > > > Ganj > > > > or Shahadra > > > > > or Govindpuri would have. But most > local > > > residents > > > > believe that for > > > > > Jamia to become a haven of such > criminal > > > elements, the > > > > local police > > > > > and land-mafia are equally responsible. > > Jamia > > > area is > > > > one of the > > > > > rare localities of Delhi where the rule > of > > law > > > > doesn’t apply in > > > > > most spheres. The land mafia openly > indulges > > in > > > > illegal > > > > > construction; no rules of traffic apply > > here, the > > > > condition of > > > > > civic amenities is abysmal. Illegal > shops, > > > factories > > > > (many with > > > > > child labour) and businesses operate > here > > > actively > > > > with police > > > > > connivance. The local politicians (MLA, > > > councilors) > > > > are actually > > > > > part of the problem rather than the > > solution. > > > There is > > > > a full-scale > > > > > illegal ISBT (bus stand) running in > Batla > > > House’s > > > > backyard to bring > > > > > hundreds of migrants everyday from > small > > towns of > > > UP > > > > (you can see > > > > > the police openly accepting bribe from > its > > > > > operators any day). > > > > > > > > > > There is no question of sealing > whatever the > > heck > > > > business you may > > > > > run here, and most places stink with > heaps > > of > > > garbage > > > > everywhere. > > > > > There are no RWAs or citizen’s > initiatives > > to > > > > discuss the problems. > > > > > It is truly a manufactured ghetto of > Delhi > > – > > > why > > > > don’t all these > > > > > problems happen in Lajpat Nagar or > Kalkaji? > > I am > > > > positive that the > > > > > authorities are aware that criminals > (or > > what > > > they > > > > call terrorists) > > > > > exist here. But they deliberately allow > them > > to > > > thrive > > > > here – never > > > > > to be touched in the normal/peaceful > times > > – > > > keep > > > > them for the > > > > > right time. It is as if Batla House is > a > > > laboratory or > > > > breeding > > > > > ground where things are allowed to grow > by > > > providing > > > > all the > > > > > required ingredients and safety. The > fruits > > are > > > > plucked only when > > > > > they are ripe (or required). So today, > they > > > simply > > > > came to gather > > > > > the fruit they had sown, and made a big > > > exhibition of > > > > it by calling > > > > > the media. The local people, frightened > that > > the > > > next > > > > encounter may > > > > > happen in their house, simply > > > > > squirm and hide in their personal > ghettos. > > > > > > > > > > In all this, a big responsibility lies > with > > the > > > media, > > > > and I am yet > > > > > to come across bold and honest > reporters who > > are > > > ready > > > > to go beyond > > > > > the obvious and investigate the truth > – > > not > > > simply > > > > repeat what is > > > > > told to them by the authorities or > their > > channel > > > > bosses. > > > > > > > > > > Yousuf Saeed > > > > > September 19, 2008 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on > > media and > > > the > > > > city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > > > Raqs Media Collective > > > > shuddha at sarai.net > > > > www.sarai.net > > > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on > media and > > the > > > city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe > in > > the > > > subject > > > > header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > subject > > header. > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject > header. > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From ahmed_shakeb at yahoo.com Sat Sep 20 18:13:21 2008 From: ahmed_shakeb at yahoo.com (shakeb ahmed) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 05:43:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Today's "media circus" at Jamia In-Reply-To: <310913.4977.qm@web53606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <188161.72862.qm@web58005.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Actually I completely agree with you Rahul...we should factor in the death of the police inspector - only then does it becomes even more desirable to understand the complexity of this event!!!Remember Ansal Plaza encounter...there is a big grey area there, maybe ACP Rajbir and our martyred inspector made a mistake then...but the question is do they have an unaccountable immesurable power at times to keep making these fatal mistakes. So surely I will factor in this tragic death! And again, not to malign the man, all I want to reject very fast is the red herring the deceased might end up being made into - just a passport photo with Lata mangeshkar elctronically forced to croon in the background. And yes there should be no guilt. There is no guilt! --- On Sat, 9/20/08, Rahul Asthana wrote: > From: Rahul Asthana > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Today's "media circus" at Jamia > To: "Reader List" , ahmed_shakeb at yahoo.com > Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008, 7:58 AM > If someone is desiring to inquire deeper into the complexity > of the whole episode,they have to factor in the death of the > police inspector.That was all I wrote and meant.Yousuf said > he didn't know about it and I accept that.IF you want to > feel some kind of guilt on account of that question,and then > explain why you will not be silenced, help yourself. > > --- On Sat, 9/20/08, shakeb ahmed > wrote: > > > From: shakeb ahmed > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Today's "media > circus" at Jamia > > To: "Reader List" > > > Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008, 12:58 PM > > To all the friends. > > In the wake of the Zakir Nagar Encounter thread a very > > funny stance being demanded of people who have a > simple > > desire to enquire deeper into the complexity of the > whole > > episode, and hence to make them suddenly feel a guilt > that > > actually does not belong to them, eventually managing > in a > > very subtle way to silence them if possible is that > they > > should attach a coda to all their uncomfortable > questions by > > attesting to "I 'should factor in that an > honest > > cop has died' and I respect him (because he died, > and my > > tv newswallah tells me the number of gallantry awards > he won > > and the number he was about to win)" What > I'll say > > and be very firm about is that I dont know who > Inspector > > Mohan Sharma was and is (strange jingoist portraits of > him > > on TV being now the only source through which I for > the > > first time become familiar with his good work or bad > > exploits). What is more important in this case for me > is > > that as somebody who lives very close to this ground > zero, I > > am > > increasing more familiar with the way the > inefficiency and > > incompetence of our humdrum security forces(and their > > subsequent desperate and maybe very dangerous methods > of > > saving some face!) and hair-brained media would > eventually > > end up being very successful in routing the fragile > dignity > > and self respect of this geographical locality. I am > more > > worried about what motivations these encouncounter > > specialist, right or wrong, forced or unforced, work > under > > or are made to work under; and very similarly what > > motivations these young boys (against whom nothing is > yet > > proved and still the case is almost getting shut with > a > > definitive verdict in the larger public imagination), > right > > or wrong, forced or unforced, work under or are made > to work > > under. I think we should be gravely concerned with the > fact > > that the criminal absurdity that accompanies such > incidents > > is left quite unpacked, unprobed, and unaccounted once > the > > shameless larger media footsoldiers run > > sweating to another more grotesque fare in an attempt > to > > makebelieve their cut into the banal vestiges of > reponsible > > journalism. > > I categorically refuse to say I respect Inspector > Mohan > > Chand Sharma just as strongly as I say I refuse to > > disrespect him - very solely for the reason that I > dont know > > him! And all the blah media is feeding about gallantry > > awards etc...havent we been in knowledge of the > decorations > > that Daya Naik and other encounter specialist have had > > before thier un-decorating begins. > > Everybody who is asking the right questions should be > > encouraged to throw any demanded Apologist Behaviour > in the > > face of the more ill informed tv-paper-net-magazine > > intellectuals. > > > > Shakeb > > > > > > --- On Sat, 9/20/08, Yousuf > > wrote: > > > > > From: Yousuf > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Today's > "media > > circus" at Jamia > > > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > > , rahul_capri at yahoo.com > > > Cc: "sarai list" > > , "Peace > Initiative" > > > > > Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008, 1:02 AM > > > Friends > > > I wanted to make a clarification. When I wrote > and > > posted > > > my message about the media circus (at 8:25 m IST > on > > 19th > > > September), the news about the police Inspector > Mohan > > Chand > > > Sharma was not available to me – I saw it only > in > > the > > > morning. I am saddened by his unfortunate death > as > > much as I > > > would be on the death of other innocent people > > affected by > > > terror attacks. But the inspector’s death would > not > > make > > > me change much of my message. Please read my mail > > again: I > > > did not make a claim about this being a fake > encounter > > – I > > > was only expressing the public opinion here - > which is > > writ > > > large if you visit the area. But more importantly > I > > was > > > making two points: (1) the role our media plays > in > > > strengthening the version of the state and > ignoring > > the > > > public, and (2) how an area like Batla House has > been > > left > > > deliberately (by the authorities) to become a > breeding > > > ground for criminals which can be cashed when the > time > > is > > > ripe. Can anybody deny these two points? > > > > > > Yousuf > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 9/20/08, Rahul Asthana > > > wrote: > > > > > > > From: Rahul Asthana > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Today's > > "media > > > circus" at Jamia > > > > To: "Yousuf" > , > > > "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > > > > > > Cc: "sarai list" > > > > > > > Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008, 6:02 AM > > > > Did you guys factor in the small detail that > a > > > policeman > > > > has died?Was it to get more ratings for the > > > "media > > > > circus" ? > > > > > http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/sep/19del1.htm > > > > Mohan Chand Sharma, inspector of the Delhi > > [Images] > > > Police > > > > Special Cell who was critically injured > during an > > > encounter > > > > with Delhi blasts-linked terrorists, died in > a > > > hospital on > > > > Friday evening. > > > > > > > > "We have lost our best man," Joint > > > Commissioner > > > > of Police (Special Cell) Karnal Singh told > PTI. > > > > > > > > Forty-one-year-old Sharma, a highly > decorated > > officer > > > who > > > > received three bullet injuries in his > abdomen, > > thigh > > > and > > > > right arm in the gunbattle at Jamia Nagar in > > South > > > Delhi, > > > > succumbed to his injuries at the Holy Family > > hospital > > > at 7 > > > > pm, doctors attending him said. > > > > > > > > A recipient of seven gallantry medals, > Sharma, > > who had > > > led > > > > the police team against the terrorists > wanted in > > > connection > > > > with the Delhi and Ahmedabad [Images] > blasts, > > > underwent an > > > > operation to remove the bullets from his > body. > > > > > > > > The profusely-bleeding officer was taken to > the > > > hospital. > > > > --- On Sat, 9/20/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Today's > > > "media > > > > circus" at Jamia > > > > > To: "Yousuf" > > > > > > > Cc: "sarai list" > > > > > > > > > Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008, > 2:01 AM > > > > > Dear Yousuf, > > > > > > > > > > Many thanks for this post and for > sharing > > your > > > > thoughts on > > > > > the 'media > > > > > circus'. > > > > > > > > > > Watching the 'media circus' > unfold > > on > > > > television, I > > > > > was appalled at > > > > > the manner in which the > 'spectacle' > > was > > > > priming > > > > > itself up through the > > > > > day. A channel called 'News 24' > for > > > instance, > > > > was > > > > > repeatedly > > > > > informing us that it 'was the first > to > > > transmit > > > > > pictures of the > > > > > encounter' etc, as if it had just > won > > India > > > yet > > > > another > > > > > sharp- > > > > > shooting gold medal in the Olympics. > > > > > > > > > > A thought that did strike me was, > > "'how > > > much > > > > more > > > > > disrespectful can > > > > > the blood-lust of this spectacle of a > hunt, > > get > > > to all > > > > > those who died > > > > > in today's 'Encounter' , be > they > > > policemen > > > > on > > > > > duty, or 'alleged' > > > > > terrorists ?" > > > > > > > > > > I think we need to give some serious > thought > > to > > > the > > > > fact > > > > > that these > > > > > days police encounters are actually an > > extended > > > part > > > > of > > > > > 'Reality > > > > > TV' (which in any case, the entire > genre > > > should be > > > > more > > > > > appropriately > > > > > called 'Surreality TV'). That > seem > > > scripted > > > > well in > > > > > advance. How else > > > > > (as you so cogently point out) can one > > explain > > > the > > > > sudden > > > > > appearance > > > > > of large OB vans, with heavy duty > equipment, > > > battling > > > > heavy > > > > > rush hour > > > > > traffic, in a congested area like Jamia > > Nagar, > > > just at > > > > the > > > > > 'nick of > > > > > time'? > > > > > > > > > > The TV commentators, throughout the > day, > > referred > > > to > > > > what > > > > > their > > > > > 'sources' in the Special Cell, > or in > > the > > > Delhi > > > > > Police, told them. I > > > > > wondered to what degree the entire > > > 'Operation' > > > > was > > > > > co-scripted, > > > > > between these 'sources' and the > > newsrooms > > > of > > > > > Television channels. > > > > > There seems something almost > monotonously > > > repetitive > > > > in > > > > > these > > > > > situations. A strange feeling of > Deja-Vu. > > > Something > > > > tells > > > > > me we have > > > > > seen this before. Or is it just that I > have > > > watched > > > > way too > > > > > much > > > > > 'reality' ? > > > > > > > > > > regards > > > > > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 19-Sep-08, at 8:25 PM, Yousuf wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Friends > > > > > > I have titled this message the > “media > > > > circus”, > > > > > although I am > > > > > > actually referring to this > morning’s > > > so-called > > > > > encounter killing of > > > > > > two young people referred to as > > > “terrorists” > > > > in > > > > > L-18 Batla House, > > > > > > Jamia Nagar, by the Delhi police. > I > > call it > > > media > > > > > circus because > > > > > > that’s what I think it really > is, > > like > > > many > > > > more > > > > > such incidents. > > > > > > > > > > > > The incident happened in my > > neigbourhood, > > > about > > > > 150 > > > > > meters from my > > > > > > house. So I have the opportunity > to see > > how > > > > things are > > > > > turning up. > > > > > > I had gone out of the area for > some > > work > > > while > > > > the > > > > > incident was > > > > > > taking place around 11 am, but > found it > > > > impossible to > > > > > reach back > > > > > > home 2 hours later, because the > road > > for > > > about 1 > > > > and a > > > > > half > > > > > > kilometer (on both sides) was > > completely > > > blocked, > > > > not > > > > > by the police > > > > > > vehicles, but by the parked OB > vans of > > the > > > > countless > > > > > TV channels, > > > > > > some of which I never heard of > before. > > Each > > > of > > > > these > > > > > vehicles had > > > > > > its generators on, and thick video > > cables > > > jetting > > > > out > > > > > of them for > > > > > > several meters to the other end > where > > the > > > > cameraperson > > > > > and the > > > > > > excited anchor were shouting how > two > > > terrorists > > > > have > > > > > been killed in > > > > > > the fierce encounter. Most local > people > > are > > > > surprised > > > > > at the speed > > > > > > with which the TV crews arrived > here > > and in > > > such > > > > large > > > > > number. > > > > > > Apparently, the Delhi Police had > > already > > > told a > > > > > section of the > > > > > > press they are going for a raid in > > Batla > > > House, > > > > based > > > > > > on the suspect Abu Bashir’s > tip-off > > (I > > > heard > > > > this > > > > > from a anchor on > > > > > > Times NOW channel, although Police > > chief > > > Dadwal > > > > is now > > > > > denying > > > > > > there is any link with Abu > Bashir), but > > they > > > > didn’t > > > > > obviously say > > > > > > it was going to be an encounter. > Its > > strange > > > that > > > > the > > > > > local > > > > > > residents got to know about the > > incident > > > only > > > > after > > > > > the two people > > > > > > had been killed – many in fact > learnt > > it > > > from > > > > the > > > > > Aaj-tak channel. > > > > > > They claim they heard only the > police > > firing > > > and > > > > no > > > > > gunshots from > > > > > > inside the flat, which the police > claim > > have > > > > injured > > > > > two of their > > > > > > constables. > > > > > > > > > > > > Most of you watching news TV in > your > > homes > > > may > > > > have > > > > > already heard > > > > > > the cacophony of the TV anchors, > each > > trying > > > to > > > > be > > > > > shriller than > > > > > > the other to provethat the local > > members of > > > the > > > > > Indian Mujahideen > > > > > > have been killed. They now seem to > have > > > memorized > > > > > their lines on > > > > > > this issue well, since they have > to > > repeat > > > the > > > > same > > > > > thing again and > > > > > > again. The graphics, animated > logos, > > > crawling > > > > tickers, > > > > > and dramatic > > > > > > music/soundtrack to go with such > > coverage > > > are > > > > always > > > > > ready in the > > > > > > cans to be used at short notice. A > > cameraman > > > > running > > > > > towards Batla > > > > > > House is nibbling at a burger > while he > > holds > > > on > > > > to a > > > > > camera in his > > > > > > other hand. I saw two members of a > TV > > crew > > > > outside the > > > > > Holy Family > > > > > > Hospital (where the injured > policemen > > have > > > been > > > > taken) > > > > > fiercely > > > > > > fight about which camera angle > would > > look > > > best > > > > for a > > > > > sound byte. > > > > > > Everything looks as if planned and > part > > of > > > the > > > > usual > > > > > business. The > > > > > > cops are happily allowing the > media to > > climb > > > any > > > > wall > > > > > to get the > > > > > > best shot while they beat the > local > > > > > > rickshawpullers to leave the > roads > > clean. > > > The > > > > message > > > > > has got > > > > > > across loud and clear: we told you > – > > Batla > > > > House is > > > > > a haven of > > > > > > terrorists. > > > > > > > > > > > > But many things sound fishy. > I’ve > > been > > > hearing > > > > a lot > > > > > of angry > > > > > > conversations in the neighborhood: > > people > > > are > > > > asking > > > > > that if the > > > > > > police had only planned a simple > raid > > (which > > > they > > > > did > > > > > 2 days ago in > > > > > > Zakir Nagar and Abul Fazl Enclave > too), > > why > > > did > > > > they > > > > > have to bring > > > > > > battalions of police and encounter > > > specialists > > > > with > > > > > AK-56 and other > > > > > > deadly looking guns (that I myself > saw) > > in > > > > advance. > > > > > And why is the > > > > > > media called in even before the > > residents > > > are > > > > told. Of > > > > > course the > > > > > > fact the this happens in the month > of > > > Ramzan, on > > > > a > > > > > Friday, and near > > > > > > a large mosque where people were > going > > to > > > gather > > > > in > > > > > large numbers > > > > > > later for prayers, sounds just too > > > predictable > > > > and > > > > > clichéd for > > > > > > anyone’s imagination. Some > locals > > claim > > > that > > > > the > > > > > police had been > > > > > > visiting this place (and that > > particular > > > house) > > > > since > > > > > last few > > > > > > days, and the so-called terrorists > and > > their > > > > weapons > > > > > were probably > > > > > > “planted” last night for this > > encounter. > > > This > > > > > claim would obviously > > > > > > find no takers in the presently > > > > > > created euphoria (did you see any > > channel > > > > showing a > > > > > sound byte to > > > > > > this affect?) I didn’t find a > single > > local > > > > resident > > > > > who is not fed > > > > > > up with this oft-repeated image of > > Jamia > > > Nagar as > > > > > harboring > > > > > > terrorists. But none of the > channels I > > saw > > > aired > > > > the > > > > > public angst > > > > > > against their portrayal. > > > > > > > > > > > > To be honest, one shouldn’t deny > that > > the > > > Batla > > > > > House area has some > > > > > > criminal and anti-social elements, > just > > as > > > Darya > > > > Ganj > > > > > or Shahadra > > > > > > or Govindpuri would have. But most > > local > > > > residents > > > > > believe that for > > > > > > Jamia to become a haven of such > > criminal > > > > elements, the > > > > > local police > > > > > > and land-mafia are equally > responsible. > > > Jamia > > > > area is > > > > > one of the > > > > > > rare localities of Delhi where the > rule > > of > > > law > > > > > doesn’t apply in > > > > > > most spheres. The land mafia > openly > > indulges > > > in > > > > > illegal > > > > > > construction; no rules of traffic > apply > > > here, the > > > > > condition of > > > > > > civic amenities is abysmal. > Illegal > > shops, > > > > factories > > > > > (many with > > > > > > child labour) and businesses > operate > > here > > > > actively > > > > > with police > > > > > > connivance. The local politicians > (MLA, > > > > councilors) > > > > > are actually > > > > > > part of the problem rather than > the > > > solution. > > > > There is > > > > > a full-scale > > > > > > illegal ISBT (bus stand) running > in > > Batla > > > > House’s > > > > > backyard to bring > > > > > > hundreds of migrants everyday from > > small > > > towns of > > > > UP > > > > > (you can see > > > > > > the police openly accepting bribe > from > > its > > > > > > operators any day). > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no question of sealing > > whatever the > > > heck > > > > > business you may > > > > > > run here, and most places stink > with > > heaps > > > of > > > > garbage > > > > > everywhere. > > > > > > There are no RWAs or citizen’s > > initiatives > > > to > > > > > discuss the problems. > > > > > > It is truly a manufactured ghetto > of > > Delhi > > > – > > > > why > > > > > don’t all these > > > > > > problems happen in Lajpat Nagar or > > Kalkaji? > > > I am > > > > > positive that the > > > > > > authorities are aware that > criminals > > (or > > > what > > > > they > > > > > call terrorists) > > > > > > exist here. But they deliberately > allow > > them > > > to > > > > thrive > > > > > here – never > > > > > > to be touched in the > normal/peaceful > > times > > > – > > > > keep > > > > > them for the > > > > > > right time. It is as if Batla > House is > > a > > > > laboratory or > > > > > breeding > > > > > > ground where things are allowed to > grow > > by > > > > providing > > > > > all the > > > > > > required ingredients and safety. > The > > fruits > > > are > > > > > plucked only when > > > > > > they are ripe (or required). So > today, > > they > > > > simply > > > > > came to gather > > > > > > the fruit they had sown, and made > a big > > > > exhibition of > > > > > it by calling > > > > > > the media. The local people, > frightened > > that > > > the > > > > next > > > > > encounter may > > > > > > happen in their house, simply > > > > > > squirm and hide in their personal > > ghettos. > > > > > > > > > > > > In all this, a big responsibility > lies > > with > > > the > > > > media, > > > > > and I am yet > > > > > > to come across bold and honest > > reporters who > > > are > > > > ready > > > > > to go beyond > > > > > > the obvious and investigate the > truth > > – > > > not > > > > simply > > > > > repeat what is > > > > > > told to them by the authorities or > > their > > > channel > > > > > bosses. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yousuf Saeed > > > > > > September 19, 2008 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion > list on > > > media and > > > > the > > > > > city. > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > > > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > > > > Raqs Media Collective > > > > > shuddha at sarai.net > > > > > www.sarai.net > > > > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on > > media and > > > the > > > > city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe > > in > > > the > > > > subject > > > > > header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the > > city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > the > > subject > > > header. > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > subject > > header. > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Sat Sep 20 18:41:47 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 18:11:47 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Today's "media circus" at Jamia In-Reply-To: <188161.72862.qm@web58005.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <310913.4977.qm@web53606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <188161.72862.qm@web58005.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Shakeb, Rahul, when a new life is brought on earth, that child knows only one truth, its mother, then comes the feel and faith of father, then is the will to live life, and the society in which the new life lives gives it a faith of a way of life. As the child grows, the mind of the life of that child gets conditioned to faith, rituals, society and then nation. But unfortunately, in the system of the society does not ensure the societal rules being equal to all, irrespective of birth, the opportunity to live life as good human being is lost in the fight for right and opportunities to live a dignified life. By then death visits the life, and it is unfortunate that death does not discriminate the humans because some one is a hindu or muslim or of any faith. For every birth, death is also surety, the issue is how do we live that life, worthy of being in the society, of use to others in the society or otherwise.? Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: shakeb ahmed Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008 6:13 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Today's "media circus" at Jamia To: Reader List > > Actually I completely agree with you Rahul...we should factor in > the death of the police inspector - only then does it becomes even > more desirable to understand the complexity of this > event!!!Remember Ansal Plaza encounter...there is a big grey area > there, maybe ACP Rajbir and our martyred inspector made a mistake > then...but the question is do they have an unaccountable > immesurable power at times to keep making these fatal mistakes. So > surely I will factor in this tragic death! And again, not to > malign the man, all I want to reject very fast is the red herring > the deceased might end up being made into - just a passport photo > with Lata mangeshkar elctronically forced to croon in the > background. And yes there should be no guilt. There is no guilt! > > --- On Sat, 9/20/08, Rahul Asthana wrote: > > > From: Rahul Asthana > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Today's "media circus" at Jamia > > To: "Reader List" , ahmed_shakeb at yahoo.com > > Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008, 7:58 AM > > If someone is desiring to inquire deeper into the complexity > > of the whole episode,they have to factor in the death of the > > police inspector.That was all I wrote and meant.Yousuf said > > he didn't know about it and I accept that.IF you want to > > feel some kind of guilt on account of that question,and then > > explain why you will not be silenced, help yourself. > > > > --- On Sat, 9/20/08, shakeb ahmed > > wrote: > > > > > From: shakeb ahmed > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Today's "media > > circus" at Jamia > > > To: "Reader List" > > > > > Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008, 12:58 PM > > > To all the friends. > > > In the wake of the Zakir Nagar Encounter thread a very > > > funny stance being demanded of people who have a > > simple > > > desire to enquire deeper into the complexity of the > > whole > > > episode, and hence to make them suddenly feel a guilt > > that > > > actually does not belong to them, eventually managing > > in a > > > very subtle way to silence them if possible is that > > they > > > should attach a coda to all their uncomfortable > > questions by > > > attesting to "I 'should factor in that an > > honest > > > cop has died' and I respect him (because he died, > > and my > > > tv newswallah tells me the number of gallantry awards > > he won > > > and the number he was about to win)" What > > I'll say > > > and be very firm about is that I dont know who > > Inspector > > > Mohan Sharma was and is (strange jingoist portraits of > > him > > > on TV being now the only source through which I for > > the > > > first time become familiar with his good work or bad > > > exploits). What is more important in this case for me > > is > > > that as somebody who lives very close to this ground > > zero, I > > > am > > > increasing more familiar with the way the > > inefficiency and > > > incompetence of our humdrum security forces(and their > > > subsequent desperate and maybe very dangerous methods > > of > > > saving some face!) and hair-brained media would > > eventually > > > end up being very successful in routing the fragile > > dignity > > > and self respect of this geographical locality. I am > > more > > > worried about what motivations these encouncounter > > > specialist, right or wrong, forced or unforced, work > > under > > > or are made to work under; and very similarly what > > > motivations these young boys (against whom nothing is > > yet > > > proved and still the case is almost getting shut with > > a > > > definitive verdict in the larger public imagination), > > right > > > or wrong, forced or unforced, work under or are made > > to work > > > under. I think we should be gravely concerned with the > > fact > > > that the criminal absurdity that accompanies such > > incidents > > > is left quite unpacked, unprobed, and unaccounted once > > the > > > shameless larger media footsoldiers run > > > sweating to another more grotesque fare in an attempt > > to > > > makebelieve their cut into the banal vestiges of > > reponsible > > > journalism. > > > I categorically refuse to say I respect Inspector > > Mohan > > > Chand Sharma just as strongly as I say I refuse to > > > disrespect him - very solely for the reason that I > > dont know > > > him! And all the blah media is feeding about gallantry > > > awards etc...havent we been in knowledge of the > > decorations > > > that Daya Naik and other encounter specialist have had > > > before thier un-decorating begins. > > > Everybody who is asking the right questions should be > > > encouraged to throw any demanded Apologist Behaviour > > in the > > > face of the more ill informed tv-paper-net-magazine > > > intellectuals. > > > > > > Shakeb > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 9/20/08, Yousuf > > > wrote: > > > > > > > From: Yousuf > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Today's > > "media > > > circus" at Jamia > > > > To: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > > > , rahul_capri at yahoo.com > > > > Cc: "sarai list" > > > , "Peace > > Initiative" > > > > > > > Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008, 1:02 AM > > > > Friends > > > > I wanted to make a clarification. When I wrote > > and > > > posted > > > > my message about the media circus (at 8:25 m IST > > on > > > 19th > > > > September), the news about the police Inspector > > Mohan > > > Chand > > > > Sharma was not available to me – I saw it only > > in > > > the > > > > morning. I am saddened by his unfortunate death > > as > > > much as I > > > > would be on the death of other innocent people > > > affected by > > > > terror attacks. But the inspector’s death would > > not > > > make > > > > me change much of my message. Please read my mail > > > again: I > > > > did not make a claim about this being a fake > > encounter > > > – I > > > > was only expressing the public opinion here - > > which is > > > writ > > > > large if you visit the area. But more importantly > > I > > > was > > > > making two points: (1) the role our media plays > > in > > > > strengthening the version of the state and > > ignoring > > > the > > > > public, and (2) how an area like Batla House has > > been > > > left > > > > deliberately (by the authorities) to become a > > breeding > > > > ground for criminals which can be cashed when the > > time > > > is > > > > ripe. Can anybody deny these two points? > > > > > > > > Yousuf > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 9/20/08, Rahul Asthana > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: Rahul Asthana > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Today's > > > "media > > > > circus" at Jamia > > > > > To: "Yousuf" > > , > > > > "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" > > > > > > > > Cc: "sarai list" > > > > > > > > > Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008, 6:02 AM > > > > > Did you guys factor in the small detail that > > a > > > > policeman > > > > > has died?Was it to get more ratings for the > > > > "media > > > > > circus" ? > > > > > > > http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/sep/19del1.htm > > > > > Mohan Chand Sharma, inspector of the Delhi > > > [Images] > > > > Police > > > > > Special Cell who was critically injured > > during an > > > > encounter > > > > > with Delhi blasts-linked terrorists, died in > > a > > > > hospital on > > > > > Friday evening. > > > > > > > > > > "We have lost our best man," Joint > > > > Commissioner > > > > > of Police (Special Cell) Karnal Singh told > > PTI. > > > > > > > > > > Forty-one-year-old Sharma, a highly > > decorated > > > officer > > > > who > > > > > received three bullet injuries in his > > abdomen, > > > thigh > > > > and > > > > > right arm in the gunbattle at Jamia Nagar in > > > South > > > > Delhi, > > > > > succumbed to his injuries at the Holy Family > > > hospital > > > > at 7 > > > > > pm, doctors attending him said. > > > > > > > > > > A recipient of seven gallantry medals, > > Sharma, > > > who had > > > > led > > > > > the police team against the terrorists > > wanted in > > > > connection > > > > > with the Delhi and Ahmedabad [Images] > > blasts, > > > > underwent an > > > > > operation to remove the bullets from his > > body. > > > > > > > > > > The profusely-bleeding officer was taken to > > the > > > > hospital. > > > > > --- On Sat, 9/20/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Today's > > > > "media > > > > > circus" at Jamia > > > > > > To: "Yousuf" > > > > > > > > > Cc: "sarai list" > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008, > > 2:01 AM > > > > > > Dear Yousuf, > > > > > > > > > > > > Many thanks for this post and for > > sharing > > > your > > > > > thoughts on > > > > > > the 'media > > > > > > circus'. > > > > > > > > > > > > Watching the 'media circus' > > unfold > > > on > > > > > television, I > > > > > > was appalled at > > > > > > the manner in which the > > 'spectacle' > > > was > > > > > priming > > > > > > itself up through the > > > > > > day. A channel called 'News 24' > > for > > > > instance, > > > > > was > > > > > > repeatedly > > > > > > informing us that it 'was the first > > to > > > > transmit > > > > > > pictures of the > > > > > > encounter' etc, as if it had just > > won > > > India > > > > yet > > > > > another > > > > > > sharp- > > > > > > shooting gold medal in the Olympics. > > > > > > > > > > > > A thought that did strike me was, > > > "'how > > > > much > > > > > more > > > > > > disrespectful can > > > > > > the blood-lust of this spectacle of a > > hunt, > > > get > > > > to all > > > > > > those who died > > > > > > in today's 'Encounter' , be > > they > > > > policemen > > > > > on > > > > > > duty, or 'alleged' > > > > > > terrorists ?" > > > > > > > > > > > > I think we need to give some serious > > thought > > > to > > > > the > > > > > fact > > > > > > that these > > > > > > days police encounters are actually an > > > extended > > > > part > > > > > of > > > > > > 'Reality > > > > > > TV' (which in any case, the entire > > genre > > > > should be > > > > > more > > > > > > appropriately > > > > > > called 'Surreality TV'). That > > seem > > > > scripted > > > > > well in > > > > > > advance. How else > > > > > > (as you so cogently point out) can one > > > explain > > > > the > > > > > sudden > > > > > > appearance > > > > > > of large OB vans, with heavy duty > > equipment, > > > > battling > > > > > heavy > > > > > > rush hour > > > > > > traffic, in a congested area like Jamia > > > Nagar, > > > > just at > > > > > the > > > > > > 'nick of > > > > > > time'? > > > > > > > > > > > > The TV commentators, throughout the > > day, > > > referred > > > > to > > > > > what > > > > > > their > > > > > > 'sources' in the Special Cell, > > or in > > > the > > > > Delhi > > > > > > Police, told them. I > > > > > > wondered to what degree the entire > > > > 'Operation' > > > > > was > > > > > > co-scripted, > > > > > > between these 'sources' and the > > > newsrooms > > > > of > > > > > > Television channels. > > > > > > There seems something almost > > monotonously > > > > repetitive > > > > > in > > > > > > these > > > > > > situations. A strange feeling of > > Deja-Vu. > > > > Something > > > > > tells > > > > > > me we have > > > > > > seen this before. Or is it just that I > > have > > > > watched > > > > > way too > > > > > > much > > > > > > 'reality' ? > > > > > > > > > > > > regards > > > > > > > > > > > > Shuddha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 19-Sep-08, at 8:25 PM, Yousuf wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Friends > > > > > > > I have titled this message the > > “media > > > > > circus”, > > > > > > although I am > > > > > > > actually referring to this > > morning’s > > > > so-called > > > > > > encounter killing of > > > > > > > two young people referred to as > > > > “terrorists” > > > > > in > > > > > > L-18 Batla House, > > > > > > > Jamia Nagar, by the Delhi police. > > I > > > call it > > > > media > > > > > > circus because > > > > > > > that’s what I think it really > > is, > > > like > > > > many > > > > > more > > > > > > such incidents. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The incident happened in my > > > neigbourhood, > > > > about > > > > > 150 > > > > > > meters from my > > > > > > > house. So I have the opportunity > > to see > > > how > > > > > things are > > > > > > turning up. > > > > > > > I had gone out of the area for > > some > > > work > > > > while > > > > > the > > > > > > incident was > > > > > > > taking place around 11 am, but > > found it > > > > > impossible to > > > > > > reach back > > > > > > > home 2 hours later, because the > > road > > > for > > > > about 1 > > > > > and a > > > > > > half > > > > > > > kilometer (on both sides) was > > > completely > > > > blocked, > > > > > not > > > > > > by the police > > > > > > > vehicles, but by the parked OB > > vans of > > > the > > > > > countless > > > > > > TV channels, > > > > > > > some of which I never heard of > > before. > > > Each > > > > of > > > > > these > > > > > > vehicles had > > > > > > > its generators on, and thick video > > > cables > > > > jetting > > > > > out > > > > > > of them for > > > > > > > several meters to the other end > > where > > > the > > > > > cameraperson > > > > > > and the > > > > > > > excited anchor were shouting how > > two > > > > terrorists > > > > > have > > > > > > been killed in > > > > > > > the fierce encounter. Most local > > people > > > are > > > > > surprised > > > > > > at the speed > > > > > > > with which the TV crews arrived > > here > > > and in > > > > such > > > > > large > > > > > > number. > > > > > > > Apparently, the Delhi Police had > > > already > > > > told a > > > > > > section of the > > > > > > > press they are going for a raid in > > > Batla > > > > House, > > > > > based > > > > > > > on the suspect Abu Bashir’s > > tip-off > > > (I > > > > heard > > > > > this > > > > > > from a anchor on > > > > > > > Times NOW channel, although Police > > > chief > > > > Dadwal > > > > > is now > > > > > > denying > > > > > > > there is any link with Abu > > Bashir), but > > > they > > > > > didn’t > > > > > > obviously say > > > > > > > it was going to be an encounter. > > Its > > > strange > > > > that > > > > > the > > > > > > local > > > > > > > residents got to know about the > > > incident > > > > only > > > > > after > > > > > > the two people > > > > > > > had been killed – many in fact > > learnt > > > it > > > > from > > > > > the > > > > > > Aaj-tak channel. > > > > > > > They claim they heard only the > > police > > > firing > > > > and > > > > > no > > > > > > gunshots from > > > > > > > inside the flat, which the police > > claim > > > have > > > > > injured > > > > > > two of their > > > > > > > constables. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most of you watching news TV in > > your > > > homes > > > > may > > > > > have > > > > > > already heard > > > > > > > the cacophony of the TV anchors, > > each > > > trying > > > > to > > > > > be > > > > > > shriller than > > > > > > > the other to provethat the local > > > members of > > > > the > > > > > > Indian Mujahideen > > > > > > > have been killed. They now seem to > > have > > > > memorized > > > > > > their lines on > > > > > > > this issue well, since they have > > to > > > repeat > > > > the > > > > > same > > > > > > thing again and > > > > > > > again. The graphics, animated > > logos, > > > > crawling > > > > > tickers, > > > > > > and dramatic > > > > > > > music/soundtrack to go with such > > > coverage > > > > are > > > > >always > > > > > > ready in the > > > > > > > cans to be used at short notice. A > > > cameraman > > > > > running > > > > > > towards Batla > > > > > > > House is nibbling at a burger > > while he > > > holds > > > > on > > > > > to a > > > > > > camera in his > > > > > > > other hand. I saw two members of a > > TV > > > crew > > > > > outside the > > > > > > Holy Family > > > > > > > Hospital (where the injured > > policemen > > > have > > > > been > > > > > taken) > > > > > > fiercely > > > > > > > fight about which camera angle > > would > > > look > > > > best > > > > > for a > > > > > > sound byte. > > > > > > > Everything looks as if planned and > > part > > > of > > > > the > > > > > usual > > > > > > business. The > > > > > > > cops are happily allowing the > > media to > > > climb > > > > any > > > > > wall > > > > > > to get the > > > > > > > best shot while they beat the > > local > > > > > > > rickshawpullers to leave the > > roads > > > clean. > > > > The > > > > > message > > > > > > has got > > > > > > > across loud and clear: we told you > > – > > > Batla > > > > > House is > > > > > > a haven of > > > > > > > terrorists. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But many things sound fishy. > > I’ve > > > been > > > > hearing > > > > > a lot > > > > > > of angry > > > > > > > conversations in the neighborhood: > > > people > > > > are > > > > > asking > > > > > > that if the > > > > > > > police had only planned a simple > > raid > > > (which > > > > they > > > > > did > > > > > > 2 days ago in > > > > > > > Zakir Nagar and Abul Fazl Enclave > > too), > > > why > > > > did > > > > > they > > > > > > have to bring > > > > > > > battalions of police and encounter > > > > specialists > > > > > with > > > > > > AK-56 and other > > > > > > > deadly looking guns (that I myself > > saw) > > > in > > > > > advance. > > > > > > And why is the > > > > > > > media called in even before the > > > residents > > > > are > > > > > told. Of > > > > > > course the > > > > > > > fact the this happens in the month > > of > > > > Ramzan, on > > > > > a > > > > > > Friday, and near > > > > > > > a large mosque where people were > > going > > > to > > > > gather > > > > > in > > > > > > large numbers > > > > > > > later for prayers, sounds just too > > > > predictable > > > > > and > > > > > > clichéd for > > > > > > > anyone’s imagination. Some > > locals > > > claim > > > > that > > > > > the > > > > > > police had been > > > > > > > visiting this place (and that > > > particular > > > > house) > > > > > since > > > > > > last few > > > > > > > days, and the so-called terrorists > > and > > > their > > > > > weapons > > > > > > were probably > > > > > > > “planted” last night for this > > > encounter. > > > > This > > > > > > claim would obviously > > > > > > > find no takers in the presently > > > > > > > created euphoria (did you see any > > > channel > > > > > showing a > > > > > > sound byte to > > > > > > > this affect?) I didn’t find a > > single > > > local > > > > > resident > > > > > > who is not fed > > > > > > > up with this oft-repeated image of > > > Jamia > > > > Nagar as > > > > > > harboring > > > > > > > terrorists. But none of the > > channels I > > > saw > > > > aired > > > > > the > > > > > > public angst > > > > > > > against their portrayal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To be honest, one shouldn’t deny > > that > > > the > > > > Batla > > > > > > House area has some > > > > > > > criminal and anti-social elements, > > just > > > as > > > > Darya > > > > > Ganj > > > > > > or Shahadra > > > > > > > or Govindpuri would have. But most > > > local > > > > > residents > > > > > > believe that for > > > > > > > Jamia to become a haven of such > > > criminal > > > > > elements, the > > > > > > local police > > > > > > > and land-mafia are equally > > responsible. > > > > Jamia > > > > > area is > > > > > > one of the > > > > > > > rare localities of Delhi where the > > rule > > > of > > > > law > > > > > > doesn’t apply in > > > > > > > most spheres. The land mafia > > openly > > > indulges > > > > in > > > > > > illegal > > > > > > > construction; no rules of traffic > > apply > > > > here, the > > > > > > condition of > > > > > > > civic amenities is abysmal. > > Illegal > > > shops, > > > > > factories > > > > > > (many with > > > > > > > child labour) and businesses > > operate > > > here > > > > > actively > > > > > > with police > > > > > > > connivance. The local politicians > > (MLA, > > > > > councilors) > > > > > > are actually > > > > > > > part of the problem rather than > > the > > > > solution. > > > > > There is > > > > > > a full-scale > > > > > > > illegal ISBT (bus stand) running > > in > > > Batla > > > > > House’s > > > > > > backyard to bring > > > > > > > hundreds of migrants everyday from > > > small > > > > towns of > > > > > UP > > > > > > (you can see > > > > > > > the police openly accepting bribe > > from > > > its > > > > > > > operators any day). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no question of sealing > > > whatever the > > > > heck > > > > > > business you may > > > > > > > run here, and most places stink > > with > > > heaps > > > > of > > > > > garbage > > > > > > everywhere. > > > > > > > There are no RWAs or citizen’s > > > initiatives > > > > to > > > > > > discuss the problems. > > > > > > > It is truly a manufactured ghetto > > of > > > Delhi > > > > – > > > > > why > > > > > > don’t all these > > > > > > > problems happen in Lajpat Nagar or > > > Kalkaji? > > > > I am > > > > > > positive that the > > > > > > > authorities are aware that > > criminals > > > (or > > > > what > > > > > they > > > > > > call terrorists) > > > > > > > exist here. But they deliberately > > allow > > > them > > > > to > > > > > thrive > > > > > > here – never > > > > > > > to be touched in the > > normal/peaceful > > > times > > > > – > > > > > keep > > > > > > them for the > > > > > > > right time. It is as if Batla > > House is > > > a > > > > > laboratory or > > > > > > breeding > > > > > > > ground where things are allowed to > > grow > > > by > > > > > providing > > > > > > all the > > > > > > > required ingredients and safety. > > The > > > fruits > > > > are > > > > > > plucked only when > > > > > > > they are ripe (or required). So > > today, > > > they > > > > > simply > > > > > > came to gather > > > > > > > the fruit they had sown, and made > > a big > > > > > exhibition of > > > > > > it by calling > > > > > > > the media. The local people, > > frightened > > > that > > > > the > > > > > next > > > > > > encounter may > > > > > > > happen in their house, simply > > > > > > > squirm and hide in their personal > > > ghettos. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In all this, a big responsibility > > lies > > > with > > > > the > > > > > media, > > > > > > and I am yet > > > > > > > to come across bold and honest > > > reporters who > > > > are > > > > > ready > > > > > > to go beyond > > > > > > > the obvious and investigate the > > truth > > > – > > > > not > > > > > simply > > > > > > repeat what is > > > > > > > told to them by the authorities or > > > their > > > > channel > > > > > > bosses. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yousuf Saeed > > > > > > > September 19, 2008 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion > > list on > > > > media and > > > > > the > > > > > > city. > > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shuddhabrata Sengupta > > > > > > The Sarai Programme at CSDS > > > > > > Raqs Media Collective > > > > > > shuddha at sarai.net > > > > > > www.sarai.net > > > > > > www.raqsmediacollective.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on > > > media and > > > > the > > > > > city. > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe > > > in > > > > the > > > > > subject > > > > > > header. > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > > the > > > city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in > > the > > > subject > > > > header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > > > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > > city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to > > > reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the > > subject > > > header. > > > To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat Sep 20 19:07:52 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 18:37:52 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised In-Reply-To: <169ff67c0809200442r540cfd70l9518587f83a48990@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690809182021u4fb74001g9064d3fa5b8b2c6f@mail.gmail.com> <169ff67c0809190317o72d3ee9l3b502a73561d1372@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809190414g6ce8861eq441fa7d5d609bd32@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809191232u65c82564lee7992d112a4cb6@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809200209r45db4222y10920e7515bddb76@mail.gmail.com> <169ff67c0809200442r540cfd70l9518587f83a48990@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690809200637n797d44d3of4ca06c4586df0d7@mail.gmail.com> Its unfortunate whoever uses terms such as "Enough. Just. Shut. Up. Be. Quiet." and still holds the right to be a member of this forum. If you run out of arguments; you don't resort to such cheap behaviour. Its better you take to learning; rather then proveing your best to be a so called scholarly jhollahwaalah. We are not here to read your "Pass-Time" debate. If you enjoy it; then kindly take it offline. Grow Up...! Love Aditya Raj Kaul On 9/20/08, Nazneen Anand Shamsi wrote: > > Dear Aarti, > > This is not with respect to this or that incident. I would like to make a > general comment regarding, state and statecraft. Please tell me what is > wrong in devising categories to mark a population in order to rule them? > What is the great moral dilemma in bumping off few of them here to keeep > the > official fiction alive? Many of our friends take a position or a point of > view on the reader list because perhaps they are in a position of privilege > to do so? So by producing a list a dissenters and hence personalizing > discourse on dissent, a Shuddhabrata, can very easily make a poignant > emotional appeal, but tell me, do you believe that, a nation or any nation > can merely run on such emotional exercises rooted in deliberation alone. > Apropos angst about 'media circus'. Tell me Aarti, what was a Ramayana or a > Mahabharata or a Karbala is if not like a great 'media circus' of an epic > scale. Such imagery, such poetry, such fine use of metaphors. So much so > that every time I read these texts I am overwhelmed with the sheer > exquisiteness of language and craft. Or for instance what was Vietnam war > if > not a great 'media circus' which swung the other way after an image of > wailing Paris was published on 8th June 1972. The point being, I think > 'media circus' is a neccesary condition for state and statehood. The state > as we know and recognise and critque now, grew out of anarchy. It may not > have been 'a state of nature' in the strictest of Lockean sense but > nevertheless, I think, it need its 'circuses' to give us, a sense of > identity, a sense of involvement and a sense of purpose. Howsoever > fractured > or precarious it may be. > > Regards > > Nazo > > > > On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 10:09 AM, Aarti Sethi > wrote: > > > Dear Lalit, > > > > I have never questioned yours or anyone else's attachment to Kashmir or > > said > > it was invalid. I am sure you feel a great deal for what you have left > > behind and I respect that, as I am sure does everyone else on this list. > > The > > fact that you are unable to live there must cause you tremendous sorrow > and > > it is a terrible tragedy. I was making a point about the sort of > attachment > > it is possible for me to have, which is of an entirely different order. > > > > Having said that, I'm not sure how you are making the rest of the > > connections in your response. > > > > > > > > > > It wasn't the case of 'no evidence' but 'insufficient evidence' & we > all > > > respect the judicial verdict- 'released' even though on 'technical > > grounds' > > > only. > > > > > > > I am not sure what the scare quotes are meant to achieve. Scare quotes > are > > normally used to qualify, or question, the validity of a word or phrase. > So > > 'released' makes no sense, because he was in fact acquitted. There is no > > room for doubt about this. Again I am unable to understand what 'even > > though > > on technical grounds only' is supposed to mean. There are no OTHER > grounds > > on which acquittals are made. People are only ever acquitted on technical > > grounds. Evidence is a technicality of the judicial process. When there > is > > no evidence linking someone to an event, then they are acquitted. I am > > unable to understand what you find so confusing about this. Its really > > quite > > simple in this case. > > > > I do not suppose we can ever imagine what a nightmare SAR Geelani must > have > > gone through. But I think we should be a little more respectful of things > > we > > are lucky we have not had occasion to experience. > > > > best > > Aarti > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 01:02:06 +0530 > > > From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com > > > To: lalitambardar at hotmail.com > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised > > > CC: radhikarajen at vsnl.net; reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Lalit, > > > > > > Yes he was released on "technical" grounds. The "technical" grounds > that > > > the law acquits people on, namely on the utter lack of any evidence > > linking > > > him to the parliament attack. I know the fact that someone is innocent > is > > a > > > flimsy excuse in your book because it would be much better to hang him > > > nonetheless and "salve the conscience of the nation", however you will > be > > > surprised to know that evidence of culpability is actually pretty > central > > to > > > the judicial process. Unfortunately, it is not simply enough for you to > > > believe that Geelani was behind the attack, it has to be proved. It has > > not > > > been proved. There is no evidence at all. > > > > > > I have said this before on this list, and I am saying it again - > terror, > > > whether by agents acting against the state and terror by the state are > > > mirrors of each other. Monstrous shadows that seemingly confront each > > other > > > in a relationship of tense alterity. And who is to say which is which > and > > > who is whom? > > > > > > In the times in which we live we will be asked again and again to > suspend > > > our sense of justice, of ethical responsibility in the name of national > > > security, of fighting terror. To justify everything - fake encounters, > > > arrest without warrants, torture, detention on suspicion, rape - so > that > > we > > > may all be safe. Safe from what? We are producing the ghosts that haunt > > us. > > > > > > best > > > Aarti > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 6:45 PM, Lalit Ambardar < > > lalitambardar at hotmail.com > > > > wrote: > > > > > > By the way, this 'guy' was released on 'technical grounds' only. Even > > one > > > of that 'celebrity' senior most criminal lawyers could not get him > > relieved > > > of this tag. And yet, he continues with his diatribe against India. > > > > > > And for these 'mobile citizens' they appear to be a confused lot. Here, > > > they espouse the cause of the pan Islamism driven secessionism in > > Kashmir & > > > lo, there they raise an issue on the relationship between the 'land' & > > 'the > > > nation'. They have no quarrel with those who thump the 'very land' in > > > kashmir with their heals ranting 'ragda'....'ragda' implying 'crush > > India'. > > > How ironic . Those who do not want to be part of this nation are > welcome > > to > > > opt for the 'land of the pure' & it quite fits in to the mobile > > citizens' > > > theory- you could still love the land (even if one ignores that > > > stupid 'ragda'....'ragda' thumping....???... ) yet need not posses it. > > > Regards all > > > LA > > > p s : Opposite of 'nation state' can only be 'anarchy' & 'anarchy' can > > > only lead to 'mayhem' that is so visible in > > > Kashmir since 1989-90. > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 16:45:02 +0500 > > > > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > > > To: aarti.sethi at gmail.com > > > > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised > > > > > > > > Aarti, > > > > > > > > we seem to have carried forward of the concept of freedom and rights > > too > > > far without realising to be free, we have some responsibility also to > the > > > nation and society that has bestowed upon us the freedom and rights. in > > fact > > > the rights have the other side of the coin, that is duties. Without > > duties > > > to the society, exercising only rights is like license to behave as any > > > individual wants, a license to tamper the rights of others in society, > it > > is > > > license to be irrelevant in a society which has given rights to > > individuals > > > to be free. > > > > > > > > A Roy, after winning a booker prize and some dollars can not be > > > exercising her rights without the responsibilty to the society in which > > she > > > lives. If she declares herself as walking and talking republic then she > > has > > > every right to say so, but her safety then, solely on her, not on the > > > republic of India as she misbehaves in the society that she lives in > > > > > > > > A Geelani when he invokes his right of feee expression, and as > activist > > > of human rights, he has to be aware of all humans in society when he > > > supports the terror in jamia nagar. When he stores the ground floor > plan > > of > > > parliament, he has to be aware that, he is neither an architect nor a > > civil > > > engineer and his act can help his terrorist friends. A court may acquit > > him > > > of the charges, but citizens look at him with certain apprehension, > > because > > > what business he has not to inform of the terror activities that go on > in > > > his neighbourhood. ? Every citizen is police without uniform for the > > > society, every police is citizen with uniform. When ghettos of muslims > > > sheltor, defend the terror accused, the citizens of the nation feel > sorry > > > for ntire community and look with disdain. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Aarti Sethi > > > > Date: Friday, September 19, 2008 4:45 pm > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised > > > > To: Nazneen Anand Shamsi , sarai list < > > > reader-list at sarai.net> > > > > > > > > > Dear Nazneen, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have no quarrel with love for land at all. And read my post > > > > > again. I used > > > > > a specific phrase, I said, 'territorial lust for land'. Can you > > > > > love land > > > > > without possessing it? That is the question. > > > > > > > > > > How exactly do you build a relationship with land with which you > > > > > have no > > > > > personal history of settlement or usage? Now obviously this is > > > > > both an > > > > > abstract and a concrete question. I have never been to Kashmir, > > > > > does this > > > > > mean I cannot have any relationship to it? Of course not! The > > > > > question is > > > > > what kind of relationship? When I was one year old my father went > > > > > on a > > > > > voyage to Antarctica. One of my most favourite memories of > > > > > childhood is > > > > > seeing the slides he brought back of the incredible snowscapes and > > ice > > > > > sheets, and a rock which lay in a corner of our house for many > years. > > > > > Apparently it was part of a meteor which smashed into the earth > > > > > some million > > > > > years ago. Antarctica is part of no country. Its land is part of > > > > > the common > > > > > heritage of humanity, for all to build relationships with. As far > > > > > as I am > > > > > concerned this is the only productive, ethical and creative way to > > > > > think of > > > > > land. > > > > > > > > > > The trouble is being an Indian citizen gives me fictional > > > > > 'ownership' over > > > > > the entire territory of India. As if I have some special > > > > > entitlement to the > > > > > square miles that are part of the map. But which land, whose land > > > > > and whose > > > > > love? Currently there are struggles going on in this country - in > > > > > singur, in > > > > > nandigram, in niyamgiri, to name only three sites - where people > > > > > are asking > > > > > this question. Communities it seems have no right to their own > > > > > land in the > > > > > name of "development". And this is fine by your logic is it not? > > > > > Because the > > > > > development of India means that everyone has an entitlement. All > > > > > land is the > > > > > property of the state. When did this come to pass? Can we ask these > > > > > questions? Or immediately "pills" must be taken to stamp out these > > > > > viruses?Maybe your love for India entitles you to such a claim, I > > > > > do not feel this > > > > > entitlement. And in my opinion this sort of entitlement is where > > > > > violence is > > > > > born. Can you see the quagmire we are in when we begin to collapse > > > > > lovefor/of land and territorial entitlement? They are not the same > > > > > thing. > > > > > What does cheering for the Indian cricket team have to do with the > > > > > area per > > > > > square miles of India? Believe me, I am not being facetious at > > > > > all. The only > > > > > reason this sounds idiotic is because we take for granted the > > > > > logic of the > > > > > modern nation state which consists of a sovereign entity for a > > > > > territorialunit, with a standing army to defend this territory. > > > > > This is the first > > > > > lesson in every graduate political science lecture. And you are > > > > > right, the > > > > > nation state is a fragile concept. So maybe we need to ask > > > > > ourselves whether > > > > > this is not causing more trouble than it is worth... > > > > > > > > > > Regarding archives and fiction, this is a longer discussion and > > > > > tangentialto the point I was making. Of course we may discuss it > > > > > if you wish. But just > > > > > to clarify what I was saying, I can claim the heritage of the > > > > > whole world as > > > > > my own. There is an old humanist saying "the world is my home" and > > > > > i think > > > > > there is something of tremendous value here. But there are several > > > > > ways in > > > > > which history and heritage can be claimed. One way seems to be > > > > > logic of > > > > > subsuming everything, all forms of life and love and affection > > > > > into the > > > > > rubric of the nation and to stamp out violently any persons or > > > > > forms of life > > > > > which fall out of this. I am afraid this is too violent and boring > > > > > for me. > > > > > > > > > > regards > > > > > Aarti > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 3:47 PM, Nazneen Anand Shamsi < > > > > > nazoshmasi at googlemail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Aarti, > > > > > > > > > > > > Please explain how many years constitute a civilization? For > > > > > that matter, > > > > > > please elucidate the relationship between temporal continuity > > > > > and a concept, > > > > > > if any? Why should 'pride in being Indian' exclude love for > > > > > land? As far as > > > > > > history books are concerned, I would ask, who is to decide which > > > > > fiction of > > > > > > the archives is valid? Nation state is a fragile concept, and > > > > > whats wrong > > > > > > in subduing those who make it more vulnerable? To not to do so > > > > > is I think > > > > > > not allow one to take a pill if one is afflicted by a minor > > > > > virus and hope > > > > > > that the body will cope on its own...it is ridiculous isn't it? > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > > > Nazo > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 9:39 AM, Aarti Sethi > > > > > wrote:> > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > The signatories assert that "Kashmir is an inalienable > > > > > element of > > > > > >> India's > > > > > >> > civilisational identity and symbolises the fundamental > > > > > principles on > > > > > >> which > > > > > >> > the modern Indian state has been built." Terming national > > > > > will as a > > > > > >> > critical > > > > > >> > component of state power, they felt that "devious > > > > > adversaries" have > > > > > >> > resorted > > > > > >> > to psychological warfare in order to break the national will. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> What is India's 'civilizational identity'? Does 60 years > > > > > constitute a > > > > > >> 'civilization'? The point is, that to even raise this question > is > > > > > >> "sedition". As if those who ask this question are somehow naive > > > > > deluded>> juvile people. Does 'pride in being Indian', whatever > > > > > that is, have to be > > > > > >> coupled with a territorial lust for land? I don't think so. Our > > > > > >> imaginations > > > > > >> and affections surely encompass more than the nation. And in > > > > > fact they do, > > > > > >> that is my point. Read any history book taught in school. We > > > > > are so > > > > > >> willing > > > > > >> so claim 2,000 years of history as 'Indian history', but that > > > > > history>> becomes 'Indian history' only 60 years ago. The march of > > > > > history does not > > > > > >> cut some straight and true swath from Ashoka to Nehru, as if > > > > > 2,000 years > > > > > >> of > > > > > >> history is the long unfolding of the story of the 'Indian > > > > > nation'. Why is > > > > > >> this so scary to concieve is what I don't understand. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Nations are not god-given entities. They are historically > > > > > produced units > > > > > >> of > > > > > >> social organisation. Which is not to say they are of no value > > > > > or that they > > > > > >> have never played a progressive role. Or that we must have no > > > > > investment>> in > > > > > >> them. But its alright to question and query the nation. There > > > > > is nothing > > > > > >> divine about it. Its not 'immoral'. People who are asking these > > > > > questions>> are not 'bad people', 'enemies of India'. > > > > > >> People who are asking today questions about Kashmir's future > > > > > and its > > > > > >> relationship with India are asking us to think deeply and hard > > > > > about how > > > > > >> India defines her/its identity. This is a good question, it > > > > > would help us > > > > > >> all to spend some time on it. It is possible to think > > > > > creatively at this > > > > > >> moment about the very many ways in which Kashmir can relate to > > > > > India.>> There > > > > > >> has been some discussion of those ways on this list itself. > > > > > Various kinds > > > > > >> of > > > > > >> autonomy arrangements, of porous borders, many things can be > > > > > thought>> through. But to deign all such conversations as > > > > > "seditious" is no way to > > > > > >> go > > > > > >> anywhere. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> best > > > > > >> A > > > > > >> _________________________________________ > > > > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > >> To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > >> List archive: > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > > > list > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > Hottest news and in-depth analysis that goes beyond the headlines. Only > > on > > > MSN News Check it out! > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > Get the latest buzz on outsourcing. Up to date information on mergers, > > > acquisitions and deals on BPO Watch. Try it now!< > > http://www.bpowatchindia.com/default.asp> > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat Sep 20 19:13:58 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 18:43:58 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised In-Reply-To: <169ff67c0809200442r540cfd70l9518587f83a48990@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690809182021u4fb74001g9064d3fa5b8b2c6f@mail.gmail.com> <169ff67c0809190317o72d3ee9l3b502a73561d1372@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809190414g6ce8861eq441fa7d5d609bd32@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809191232u65c82564lee7992d112a4cb6@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809200209r45db4222y10920e7515bddb76@mail.gmail.com> <169ff67c0809200442r540cfd70l9518587f83a48990@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6353c690809200643y2661c020p6a12246b93410eae@mail.gmail.com> Its purely by luck how S.A.R. Geelani is out and free. This issue was discussed long back in the same forum. We know how couple of people wrongly translated a double - meaning "Kashmiri Conversation". Its unfortunate that Judiciary and the administration failed to convict him. And, its equally tragic how people on this forum going an extra mile to defend his acts. On 9/20/08, Nazneen Anand Shamsi wrote: > > Dear Aarti, > > This is not with respect to this or that incident. I would like to make a > general comment regarding, state and statecraft. Please tell me what is > wrong in devising categories to mark a population in order to rule them? > What is the great moral dilemma in bumping off few of them here to keeep > the > official fiction alive? Many of our friends take a position or a point of > view on the reader list because perhaps they are in a position of privilege > to do so? So by producing a list a dissenters and hence personalizing > discourse on dissent, a Shuddhabrata, can very easily make a poignant > emotional appeal, but tell me, do you believe that, a nation or any nation > can merely run on such emotional exercises rooted in deliberation alone. > Apropos angst about 'media circus'. Tell me Aarti, what was a Ramayana or a > Mahabharata or a Karbala is if not like a great 'media circus' of an epic > scale. Such imagery, such poetry, such fine use of metaphors. So much so > that every time I read these texts I am overwhelmed with the sheer > exquisiteness of language and craft. Or for instance what was Vietnam war > if > not a great 'media circus' which swung the other way after an image of > wailing Paris was published on 8th June 1972. The point being, I think > 'media circus' is a neccesary condition for state and statehood. The state > as we know and recognise and critque now, grew out of anarchy. It may not > have been 'a state of nature' in the strictest of Lockean sense but > nevertheless, I think, it need its 'circuses' to give us, a sense of > identity, a sense of involvement and a sense of purpose. Howsoever > fractured > or precarious it may be. > > Regards > > Nazo > > > > On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 10:09 AM, Aarti Sethi > wrote: > > > Dear Lalit, > > > > I have never questioned yours or anyone else's attachment to Kashmir or > > said > > it was invalid. I am sure you feel a great deal for what you have left > > behind and I respect that, as I am sure does everyone else on this list. > > The > > fact that you are unable to live there must cause you tremendous sorrow > and > > it is a terrible tragedy. I was making a point about the sort of > attachment > > it is possible for me to have, which is of an entirely different order. > > > > Having said that, I'm not sure how you are making the rest of the > > connections in your response. > > > > > > > > > > It wasn't the case of 'no evidence' but 'insufficient evidence' & we > all > > > respect the judicial verdict- 'released' even though on 'technical > > grounds' > > > only. > > > > > > > I am not sure what the scare quotes are meant to achieve. Scare quotes > are > > normally used to qualify, or question, the validity of a word or phrase. > So > > 'released' makes no sense, because he was in fact acquitted. There is no > > room for doubt about this. Again I am unable to understand what 'even > > though > > on technical grounds only' is supposed to mean. There are no OTHER > grounds > > on which acquittals are made. People are only ever acquitted on technical > > grounds. Evidence is a technicality of the judicial process. When there > is > > no evidence linking someone to an event, then they are acquitted. I am > > unable to understand what you find so confusing about this. Its really > > quite > > simple in this case. > > > > I do not suppose we can ever imagine what a nightmare SAR Geelani must > have > > gone through. But I think we should be a little more respectful of things > > we > > are lucky we have not had occasion to experience. > > > > best > > Aarti > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 01:02:06 +0530 > > > From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com > > > To: lalitambardar at hotmail.com > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised > > > CC: radhikarajen at vsnl.net; reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Lalit, > > > > > > Yes he was released on "technical" grounds. The "technical" grounds > that > > > the law acquits people on, namely on the utter lack of any evidence > > linking > > > him to the parliament attack. I know the fact that someone is innocent > is > > a > > > flimsy excuse in your book because it would be much better to hang him > > > nonetheless and "salve the conscience of the nation", however you will > be > > > surprised to know that evidence of culpability is actually pretty > central > > to > > > the judicial process. Unfortunately, it is not simply enough for you to > > > believe that Geelani was behind the attack, it has to be proved. It has > > not > > > been proved. There is no evidence at all. > > > > > > I have said this before on this list, and I am saying it again - > terror, > > > whether by agents acting against the state and terror by the state are > > > mirrors of each other. Monstrous shadows that seemingly confront each > > other > > > in a relationship of tense alterity. And who is to say which is which > and > > > who is whom? > > > > > > In the times in which we live we will be asked again and again to > suspend > > > our sense of justice, of ethical responsibility in the name of national > > > security, of fighting terror. To justify everything - fake encounters, > > > arrest without warrants, torture, detention on suspicion, rape - so > that > > we > > > may all be safe. Safe from what? We are producing the ghosts that haunt > > us. > > > > > > best > > > Aarti > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 6:45 PM, Lalit Ambardar < > > lalitambardar at hotmail.com > > > > wrote: > > > > > > By the way, this 'guy' was released on 'technical grounds' only. Even > > one > > > of that 'celebrity' senior most criminal lawyers could not get him > > relieved > > > of this tag. And yet, he continues with his diatribe against India. > > > > > > And for these 'mobile citizens' they appear to be a confused lot. Here, > > > they espouse the cause of the pan Islamism driven secessionism in > > Kashmir & > > > lo, there they raise an issue on the relationship between the 'land' & > > 'the > > > nation'. They have no quarrel with those who thump the 'very land' in > > > kashmir with their heals ranting 'ragda'....'ragda' implying 'crush > > India'. > > > How ironic . Those who do not want to be part of this nation are > welcome > > to > > > opt for the 'land of the pure' & it quite fits in to the mobile > > citizens' > > > theory- you could still love the land (even if one ignores that > > > stupid 'ragda'....'ragda' thumping....???... ) yet need not posses it. > > > Regards all > > > LA > > > p s : Opposite of 'nation state' can only be 'anarchy' & 'anarchy' can > > > only lead to 'mayhem' that is so visible in > > > Kashmir since 1989-90. > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 16:45:02 +0500 > > > > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > > > To: aarti.sethi at gmail.com > > > > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised > > > > > > > > Aarti, > > > > > > > > we seem to have carried forward of the concept of freedom and rights > > too > > > far without realising to be free, we have some responsibility also to > the > > > nation and society that has bestowed upon us the freedom and rights. in > > fact > > > the rights have the other side of the coin, that is duties. Without > > duties > > > to the society, exercising only rights is like license to behave as any > > > individual wants, a license to tamper the rights of others in society, > it > > is > > > license to be irrelevant in a society which has given rights to > > individuals > > > to be free. > > > > > > > > A Roy, after winning a booker prize and some dollars can not be > > > exercising her rights without the responsibilty to the society in which > > she > > > lives. If she declares herself as walking and talking republic then she > > has > > > every right to say so, but her safety then, solely on her, not on the > > > republic of India as she misbehaves in the society that she lives in > > > > > > > > A Geelani when he invokes his right of feee expression, and as > activist > > > of human rights, he has to be aware of all humans in society when he > > > supports the terror in jamia nagar. When he stores the ground floor > plan > > of > > > parliament, he has to be aware that, he is neither an architect nor a > > civil > > > engineer and his act can help his terrorist friends. A court may acquit > > him > > > of the charges, but citizens look at him with certain apprehension, > > because > > > what business he has not to inform of the terror activities that go on > in > > > his neighbourhood. ? Every citizen is police without uniform for the > > > society, every police is citizen with uniform. When ghettos of muslims > > > sheltor, defend the terror accused, the citizens of the nation feel > sorry > > > for ntire community and look with disdain. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: Aarti Sethi > > > > Date: Friday, September 19, 2008 4:45 pm > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised > > > > To: Nazneen Anand Shamsi , sarai list < > > > reader-list at sarai.net> > > > > > > > > > Dear Nazneen, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have no quarrel with love for land at all. And read my post > > > > > again. I used > > > > > a specific phrase, I said, 'territorial lust for land'. Can you > > > > > love land > > > > > without possessing it? That is the question. > > > > > > > > > > How exactly do you build a relationship with land with which you > > > > > have no > > > > > personal history of settlement or usage? Now obviously this is > > > > > both an > > > > > abstract and a concrete question. I have never been to Kashmir, > > > > > does this > > > > > mean I cannot have any relationship to it? Of course not! The > > > > > question is > > > > > what kind of relationship? When I was one year old my father went > > > > > on a > > > > > voyage to Antarctica. One of my most favourite memories of > > > > > childhood is > > > > > seeing the slides he brought back of the incredible snowscapes and > > ice > > > > > sheets, and a rock which lay in a corner of our house for many > years. > > > > > Apparently it was part of a meteor which smashed into the earth > > > > > some million > > > > > years ago. Antarctica is part of no country. Its land is part of > > > > > the common > > > > > heritage of humanity, for all to build relationships with. As far > > > > > as I am > > > > > concerned this is the only productive, ethical and creative way to > > > > > think of > > > > > land. > > > > > > > > > > The trouble is being an Indian citizen gives me fictional > > > > > 'ownership' over > > > > > the entire territory of India. As if I have some special > > > > > entitlement to the > > > > > square miles that are part of the map. But which land, whose land > > > > > and whose > > > > > love? Currently there are struggles going on in this country - in > > > > > singur, in > > > > > nandigram, in niyamgiri, to name only three sites - where people > > > > > are asking > > > > > this question. Communities it seems have no right to their own > > > > > land in the > > > > > name of "development". And this is fine by your logic is it not? > > > > > Because the > > > > > development of India means that everyone has an entitlement. All > > > > > land is the > > > > > property of the state. When did this come to pass? Can we ask these > > > > > questions? Or immediately "pills" must be taken to stamp out these > > > > > viruses?Maybe your love for India entitles you to such a claim, I > > > > > do not feel this > > > > > entitlement. And in my opinion this sort of entitlement is where > > > > > violence is > > > > > born. Can you see the quagmire we are in when we begin to collapse > > > > > lovefor/of land and territorial entitlement? They are not the same > > > > > thing. > > > > > What does cheering for the Indian cricket team have to do with the > > > > > area per > > > > > square miles of India? Believe me, I am not being facetious at > > > > > all. The only > > > > > reason this sounds idiotic is because we take for granted the > > > > > logic of the > > > > > modern nation state which consists of a sovereign entity for a > > > > > territorialunit, with a standing army to defend this territory. > > > > > This is the first > > > > > lesson in every graduate political science lecture. And you are > > > > > right, the > > > > > nation state is a fragile concept. So maybe we need to ask > > > > > ourselves whether > > > > > this is not causing more trouble than it is worth... > > > > > > > > > > Regarding archives and fiction, this is a longer discussion and > > > > > tangentialto the point I was making. Of course we may discuss it > > > > > if you wish. But just > > > > > to clarify what I was saying, I can claim the heritage of the > > > > > whole world as > > > > > my own. There is an old humanist saying "the world is my home" and > > > > > i think > > > > > there is something of tremendous value here. But there are several > > > > > ways in > > > > > which history and heritage can be claimed. One way seems to be > > > > > logic of > > > > > subsuming everything, all forms of life and love and affection > > > > > into the > > > > > rubric of the nation and to stamp out violently any persons or > > > > > forms of life > > > > > which fall out of this. I am afraid this is too violent and boring > > > > > for me. > > > > > > > > > > regards > > > > > Aarti > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 3:47 PM, Nazneen Anand Shamsi < > > > > > nazoshmasi at googlemail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Aarti, > > > > > > > > > > > > Please explain how many years constitute a civilization? For > > > > > that matter, > > > > > > please elucidate the relationship between temporal continuity > > > > > and a concept, > > > > > > if any? Why should 'pride in being Indian' exclude love for > > > > > land? As far as > > > > > > history books are concerned, I would ask, who is to decide which > > > > > fiction of > > > > > > the archives is valid? Nation state is a fragile concept, and > > > > > whats wrong > > > > > > in subduing those who make it more vulnerable? To not to do so > > > > > is I think > > > > > > not allow one to take a pill if one is afflicted by a minor > > > > > virus and hope > > > > > > that the body will cope on its own...it is ridiculous isn't it? > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > > > Nazo > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 9:39 AM, Aarti Sethi > > > > > wrote:> > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > The signatories assert that "Kashmir is an inalienable > > > > > element of > > > > > >> India's > > > > > >> > civilisational identity and symbolises the fundamental > > > > > principles on > > > > > >> which > > > > > >> > the modern Indian state has been built." Terming national > > > > > will as a > > > > > >> > critical > > > > > >> > component of state power, they felt that "devious > > > > > adversaries" have > > > > > >> > resorted > > > > > >> > to psychological warfare in order to break the national will. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> What is India's 'civilizational identity'? Does 60 years > > > > > constitute a > > > > > >> 'civilization'? The point is, that to even raise this question > is > > > > > >> "sedition". As if those who ask this question are somehow naive > > > > > deluded>> juvile people. Does 'pride in being Indian', whatever > > > > > that is, have to be > > > > > >> coupled with a territorial lust for land? I don't think so. Our > > > > > >> imaginations > > > > > >> and affections surely encompass more than the nation. And in > > > > > fact they do, > > > > > >> that is my point. Read any history book taught in school. We > > > > > are so > > > > > >> willing > > > > > >> so claim 2,000 years of history as 'Indian history', but that > > > > > history>> becomes 'Indian history' only 60 years ago. The march of > > > > > history does not > > > > > >> cut some straight and true swath from Ashoka to Nehru, as if > > > > > 2,000 years > > > > > >> of > > > > > >> history is the long unfolding of the story of the 'Indian > > > > > nation'. Why is > > > > > >> this so scary to concieve is what I don't understand. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Nations are not god-given entities. They are historically > > > > > produced units > > > > > >> of > > > > > >> social organisation. Which is not to say they are of no value > > > > > or that they > > > > > >> have never played a progressive role. Or that we must have no > > > > > investment>> in > > > > > >> them. But its alright to question and query the nation. There > > > > > is nothing > > > > > >> divine about it. Its not 'immoral'. People who are asking these > > > > > questions>> are not 'bad people', 'enemies of India'. > > > > > >> People who are asking today questions about Kashmir's future > > > > > and its > > > > > >> relationship with India are asking us to think deeply and hard > > > > > about how > > > > > >> India defines her/its identity. This is a good question, it > > > > > would help us > > > > > >> all to spend some time on it. It is possible to think > > > > > creatively at this > > > > > >> moment about the very many ways in which Kashmir can relate to > > > > > India.>> There > > > > > >> has been some discussion of those ways on this list itself. > > > > > Various kinds > > > > > >> of > > > > > >> autonomy arrangements, of porous borders, many things can be > > > > > thought>> through. But to deign all such conversations as > > > > > "seditious" is no way to > > > > > >> go > > > > > >> anywhere. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> best > > > > > >> A > > > > > >> _________________________________________ > > > > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > >> To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > >> List archive: > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > > > list > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > Hottest news and in-depth analysis that goes beyond the headlines. Only > > on > > > MSN News Check it out! > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > Get the latest buzz on outsourcing. Up to date information on mergers, > > > acquisitions and deals on BPO Watch. Try it now!< > > http://www.bpowatchindia.com/default.asp> > > > > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat Sep 20 19:45:00 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 19:15:00 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Tearful adieu to brave Delhi Police officer Message-ID: <6353c690809200715l1c3d5931n73241d57cac3904a@mail.gmail.com> Tearful adieu to brave Delhi Police officer New Delhi, Sep 20 (PTI) Family and friends today bid a tearful adieu to slain Delhi Police Special Cell officer M C Sharma, who died battling terrorists during an encounter. As the body of the 41-year-old was brought to his residence in South West Delhi's Dwarka area in a flower-decked vehicle, family members, neighbours and well wishers started chanting slogans of "Bharat Mata Ki Jai (Long live Mother India)" and "M C Sharma Amar Rahe (Long live M C Sharma). A Delhi Police contingent paid a gun salute to the departed officer, a winner of seven gallantry medals. Sharma is survived by his wife, a son and a daughter. His son, who had been admitted to a hospital in Kirti Nagar with Dengue, was also brought home to bid farewell to his father. The body of the slain inspector was brought from AIIMS, where a postmortem had been conducted, to Sharma's residence at Om Satyam Apartments, Sector 4 in Dwarka. A large number of inconsolable relatives, neighbours and well wishers trailed the vehicle as the body was taken to the Nigamboth Ghat for cremation. Sharma suffered several bullet injuries during the encounter with militants in the capital's Jamia Nagar area yesterday in which he led the Delhi police team. Two terrorists were killed and one arrested. He later succumbed to his injuries at the Holy Family hospital. The officer who joined the Delhi Police as a Sub-inspector in 1989 was instrumental in the killing of 35 terrorists and the arrest of another 80 militants, police sources claimed, adding he had killed 40 inter-state gangsters and arrested another 129. PTI From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sat Sep 20 19:52:45 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 19:22:45 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Surfers reach out to hero's family Message-ID: <6353c690809200722v5d094d0cr419e912a2cc1998@mail.gmail.com> Surfers reach out to hero's family Shobhit Sujay - NDTV Saturday, September 20, 2008, (New Delhi) The Friday encounter between Delhi Police and the terrorists in the densely populated Jamia Nagar locality of south Delhi ended after almost an hour of firing. Two terrorists got killed in the exchange of fire, certainly a stamp of success for the police. But the hero of the encounter, Inspector Mohan Chand Sharma, who led the force into L-18, the house where the terrorists were hidden, was also hit by four bullets. He was immediately rushed to the Holy Family Hospital but he succumbed to his injuries later in the evening. The demise of one of the Delhi Police's bravest cops came as a huge setback for the all those who feel for the well being of the country. Surfers at NDTV.com have shared their grief. Messages have poured in from those who pay their homage to the martyr of what was probably the most fearsome encounter of cops with the terrorists in the Capital. A surfer Aditya Pareek has said that inspector Sharma gave up his life in a benevolent effort to track down the terrorists. "He is a Martyr in the true sense and will be remembered for times to come. The country has lost a good police officer and a good resource that played a key role in efforts to eradicate terrorism," said Pareek. Few other surfers have called inspector Sharma a the hero of the nation. "The hero of the nation has done something to save country from so called terrorist. May his soul rest in peace, my deepest condolence to his family and friends," said Suresh Yadav from Hyderabad. "India need more Sharmas to eradicate terrorism in our country. My heartfelt condolence to Sharmas heroic family," said Venkat, another NDTV.com surfer. The surfers have also wished the proud family of the martyr all the courage. "We Indians are proud of Inspector Sharma. I would like to convey my condolence to the family and would pray to god to give his wife and kids strength to deal with the irreparable loss," said Sonam Arora. Surfers at NDTV.com have asked the nation to stand together in expressing gratitude to the brave martyr and show that we respect the brave hearts. "I request all patriotic Indians to express their gratitude to the brave M C Sharma. May god give him eternal peace, give strength to his family to bear this loss. As long as Indian security forces have officers like him, we will eventually win battle against terrorism. The need is for the whole nation to show that we respect these brave hearts," said NDTV.com Jeevan Tiwari. However, he also said that the incident must come as a learning experience for the police. He pointed towards the adequate security measures that the police failed to take at the right moment. From shuddha at sarai.net Sat Sep 20 19:53:39 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 19:53:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised In-Reply-To: <6353c690809200637n797d44d3of4ca06c4586df0d7@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690809182021u4fb74001g9064d3fa5b8b2c6f@mail.gmail.com> <169ff67c0809190317o72d3ee9l3b502a73561d1372@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809190414g6ce8861eq441fa7d5d609bd32@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809191232u65c82564lee7992d112a4cb6@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809200209r45db4222y10920e7515bddb76@mail.gmail.com> <169ff67c0809200442r540cfd70l9518587f83a48990@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690809200637n797d44d3of4ca06c4586df0d7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Aditya, Radhikarajen While I do not endorse anyone telling anyone, be they Aarti or you, Aditya, to 'shut up' on the list, (and your 'take it offline' comment is only a variation on the 'shut up' theme), I find it indeed unfortunate that the list is once again being used to spread a great deal of malicious comment and insinuation, based on an assessment of the religious identity of the people who live in a neighbourhood. I found Radhikarajen's comments (which Aarti responded to with her 'Enough' post) on the inhabitants of Jamia Nagar deeply offensive. I have studied at Jamia Millia Islamia university, and I have many friends who live in Jamia Nagar, and Radhikarajen's broad abusive sweep ('car thieves', 'terrorists', 'goons', 'dirty underbelly', 'brothel keepers') despite his concluding token caveat about some of what he calls 'good muslims' is personally insulting to me (though I do not live in Jamia Nagar) and to several of my friends who happen to live there. I want to know which neighbourhood in Delhi does not contain anti- social elements. Which neighbourhood is free of bigots, wife beaters, begetters of petty violence, arms dealers, con men, informers and murderers? I grew up during the Anti-Sikh riots of 1984, and I saw people in every neighbourhood in Delhi turn on their neighbours, killing around 6000 people in less than three days. Not a single area in Delhi was unscathed by that terrible violence. And in some ways, this city is still coping with what happened during those days. Which community, which neighbourhood, does not have in its midst people who are prone to a pathological desire to see pain inflicted upon others? Would we then be justified in saying that Delhi and its mainly Hindu inhabitants, is a city full of blood-thirsty people, mainly arsonists and rioters, prone to throwing burning tyres on men just because they happen to wear turbans and go unshorn? I don't think so, and I would argue against anyone who tried to say as much. I can see why anyone on the list would be angered and provoked enough to say 'enough', when such things are said about particular communities and neighbourhoods, though I would not agree with their expressing it by telling anyone to 'Shut Up', as Aarti has done. I do hope you remember that when Shivam VIj made an inappropriate posting tagged 'Hindu Terrorists' on this list, not very long ago, he was promptly admonished by several people, including me. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, I am surprised to see you acting 'holier than thou' in this fashion when someone says that they have had enough of what is, frankly, unmitigated prejudice. There is no reason why, just as Shivam Vij thought it fit to render a graceful apology, Radhikarajen, and anyone else at all, who marks people, no matter of which community, or which neighbourhood, in Delhi, or elsewhere, with blanket negative qualifiers, should not do the same.That apology is still awaited. Shuddha From mitoo at sarai.net Fri Sep 19 11:50:08 2008 From: mitoo at sarai.net (Mitoo Das) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 11:50:08 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] [Announcements] Position in Gender and Equity (Asia), UTSC Message-ID: <48D34498.4050609@sarai.net> Gender and Equity (Asia) University of Toronto Scarborough Applications are invited for a tenure-stream position at the rank of Assistant Professor in Gender and Equity with special reference to Asia, Department of Humanities, University of Toronto Scarborough (UTSC), to begin July 1, 2009. This is an open-field position in the Global Asia Studies program and Women’s Studies. Special consideration will be given to applicants who are proficient in one or more Asian language and culture area, and who demonstrate a breadth of inter-disciplinary scholarship and commitment to the humanities. The Department particularly encourages applications from scholars who can contribute to interdisciplinary teaching and research and whose work pushes beyond conventional boundaries. The successful candidate will teach undergraduate and graduate courses and will supervise graduate students in his/her area of expertise. The candidate will be expected to share responsibility for framing and teaching broad and specialist undergraduate courses in the Global Asia Studies program and in Women’s Studies. PhD and clear evidence of excellence in teaching and research are required. Salary will be commensurate with qualifications and experience. UTSC is a research-intensive faculty within the University of Toronto with an interdisciplinary commitment and a multicultural student body speaking a wide range of languages. The University of Toronto offers the opportunity to teach, conduct research and live in one of the most diverse cities in the world. Additional information on the Department can be found at www.utsc.utoronto.ca/~humdiv/index.html. Applicants should apply online at www.jobs.utoronto.ca/faculty.htm (Internet Explorer and PC required; Job Number 800939). Please ensure that you include a letter of application, a current curriculum vitae, a writing sample and teaching materials. Three letters of reference should be sent directly to Professor William R. Bowen, Chair, Department of Humanities, University of Toronto Scarborough, 1265 Military Trail, Toronto ON, M1C 1A4, Canada. Reference letters and large documents may also be submitted electronically to GASsearch at utsc.utoronto.ca. The closing date for applications is October 27, 2008. The University of Toronto is strongly committed to diversity within its community and especially welcomes applications from visible minority group members, women, Aboriginal persons, persons with disabilities, members of sexual minority groups, and others who may contribute to the further diversification of ideas. All qualified candidates are encouraged to apply; however, Canadians and permanent residents of Canada will be given priority. ****Please circulate widely**** _______________________________________________ announcements mailing list announcements at sarai.net https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/announcements From shuddha at sarai.net Sat Sep 20 01:42:58 2008 From: shuddha at sarai.net (Shuddhabrata Sengupta) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 01:42:58 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] The updated list of killings by the firing of armedforces In-Reply-To: References: <921672.85527.qm@web31813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <381C8D8F-B9CD-448D-856A-C93038E57342@sarai.net> Dear Radhika, Well, in this case some "protesters who claim to be peaceful, holding sticks, guns and resort to arson and riot" were "garlanded." I am referring to the ones in Jammu. You will recall, that not a single policeman or soldier or paramilitary personnel were killed in Kashmir. But two policemen did die in Jammu, and some truck drivers assaulted by the 'peaceful' protestors in Jammu also succmbed, I suppose in your opinion, "peacefully" from their injuries. Gujjar huts were burnt in acts of "peaceful" arson. The crowds in Kashmir who were fired upon, 50 of whom were killed at the last count, did not bear weapons. We all saw the television pictures. They threw stones, like angry crowds do everywhere in the world. The government did not garland these protestors, it clamped indefinite curfews and shot to kill. One the other hand it did garland the protestors on the other side of the Banihal pass. it held some leaders under the Public Safety Act, and then released them. It counducted 'negotiations' with the leaders of the peaceful protests in Jammu and garlanded them with a sham 'accord'. All these prove that if you happen to belong to the right place, sport the right kind of name, then even if your 'peaceful' protest turns occasionally violent, you can still be garlanded. After all, we live in the country whose government called its nuclear weapons tests in 1974, 'peaceful implosions'. In the novel, '1984' George Orwell, whom I have referred to in an earlier posting, wrote about how in the language perfected by fictional regime that he was decribing, (newspeak) 'PEACE' was 'WAR'. are you not indulging in a little modest 'newspeak' Radhika, surely, you can do better than that? warm regards Shuddha On 18-Sep-08, at 1:46 PM, radhikarajen at vsnl.net wrote: > Khurram, > > your post makes me wonder, whether the protesters who claim to be > peaceful, holding sticks, guns and resort to arson and riot should > be garlanded. ? > > And also factional rivalry within hurriyath and the love for hate > and passion for blood of these freedom fighters have clearly shown > that they can indulge in killing each other during the mass > protests to eliminate their rivals.! > > Regards. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Khurram Parvez > Date: Thursday, September 18, 2008 12:38 pm > Subject: [Reader-list] The updated list of killings by the firing > of armedforces > To: SARAI > >> KILLINGS IN JAMMU DURING Amarnath Sangharsh Samiti Protests >> >> >> >> >> >> >> S.NO >> >> >> NAME >> >> >> PARENTAGE >> >> >> DATE >> >> >> ADDRESS/PLACE OF KILLING >> >> >> >> 1. >> >> >> Sunny Padha (30) >> >> >> Khemraj Padha >> >> >> August 4-2008 >> >> >> Samba >> >> >> 2. >> >> Sanjeev Singh (24) >> >> Chanchal Singh >> >> August 4-2008 >> >> Samba >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> KILLINGS DURING 2008 PRO-FREEDOM PROTESTS >> >> >> >> >> >> >> S.NO >> >> >> NAME >> >> >> PARENTAGE >> >> >> DATE >> >> >> ADDRESS/PLACE OF KILLING >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Feroz Ahmad Rah, (35) >> (Conductor) >> >> >> Late.Ghulam.Hassan Rah >> >> >> June 23,2008 >> >> Jogiwan, Botakadal >> Killed at Nowhatta >> >> >> >> >> >> Farooq Ahmad Rather >> (Student) >> >> >> >> June 25,2008 >> >> Mazhama, Magam >> >> >> >> >> >> Sameer Ahmad, (24), Driver >> >> >> >> June 25,2008 >> >> Tashwan Chowk Fatehkadal >> Killed at Nawakadal >> >> >> >> >> >> Imtiyaz Ahmad, (19) >> >> >> >> June 28,2008 >> >> Firdous colony Bemina >> >> >> >> >> >> Abdul Gani Sheikh, (75) >> >> Abdul Samad Sheikh >> >> July 1,2008 >> >> Ganie Mohalla Budgam >> >> >> >> >> >> Feroz Ahmad Khan >> (Coppersmith) >> >> Mehraj-ud-din >> >> June 24, 2008(succumbed on July 5, 2008) >> >> Taeng-pora, Nawab Bazaar >> Killed at Basant Bagh >> >> >> >> >> >> Asif Mehraj (16) >> >> Mehraj-ud-Din >> >> August 4,2008 >> >> Maisuma >> >> >> >> >> >> Sheikh Abdul Aziz (Senior Hurriyat Conference Leader) >> >> Pampore >> >> August 11,2008 >> >> Killed at Uri >> >> >> >> >> >> Manzoor Ahmad Akhoon >> >> Haji Abdul Shaban >> >> August 11,2008 >> >> Khanpora Baramulla >> Killed at Uri >> >> >> >> >> >> Abdul Hamid Bhat >> >> Dr. Abdul Qayoom >> >> August 11,2008 >> >> Kanlibagh, Baramulla >> Killed at Uri >> >> >> >> >> >> Ishfaq Ahmad >> >> Ghulam Muhammad >> >> August 11,2008 >> >> Qamarwari. >> >> >> >> >> >> Mehboob Hussain Deewani >> >> Khursheed Ahmad >> >> August 11,2008 >> >> Bilal Colony, Bemina (killed at Parimpora) >> >> >> >> >> >> Tahir Nazir Lone >> >> Nazir Ahmad >> >> August 11,2008 >> >> Thenam Kreeri, Pattan >> Killed at Sangrama >> >> >> >> >> >> Irfan Ahmad War >> >> Bashir Ahmad >> >> August 11,2008 >> >> Krashun Sopore >> Killed at Uri >> >> >> >> >> >> Abid Mustafa Sheikh (18) >> >> Ghulam Mustafa Sheikh >> >> August 12,2008 >> >> Lasjan >> >> >> >> >> >> Kamraan Sheikh >> >> >> >> August 12, 2008 >> >> Bemina >> >> >> >> >> >> Imtiyaz Ahmad Bhat (19) >> >> Abdul Gani >> >> August 12,2008 >> >> Lasjan >> >> >> >> >> >> Hasina Begum >> >> W/O: Bashir Ahmad Mir >> >> August 12,2008 >> >> Lasjan >> >> >> >> >> >> Jabeena Begum >> >> >> >> August 12,2008 >> >> Lasjan >> >> >> >> >> >> Imran Qayoom Wani (25) >> >> Abdul Qayoom >> >> August 12,2008 >> >> Bagh-e-Mehtab >> Killed at Bagh-e-Mehtab >> >> >> >> >> >> Owais Majeed >> >> Abdul Majeed >> >> August 12,2008 >> >> Rainawari >> Killed at Rainawari >> >> >> >> >> >> Javaid Ahmad Mir >> Cameraman of a local news channel, 9TV >> >> Ghulam Ahmad >> >> August 12,2008 >> >> Beighpora, Baghi-Mehtab >> Killed at Baghi-Mehtab >> >> >> >> >> >> Mumtaz Ahmed Bhat >> >> Mohammad Afzal >> >> August 12,2008 >> >> Aloosa Bandipora >> Killed at 15 RR camp Paribal Bandipora >> >> >> >> >> >> Ali Muhammad Khanday >> >> Ghulam Mohammad >> >> August 12,2008 >> >> Aloosa gath >> Killed at 15 RR camp Paribal Bandipora >> >> >> >> >> >> Muhammad Shafi Ganai >> >> Abdul Aziz >> >> August 12,2008 >> >> Ganai Mohalla Aloosa >> Killed at 15 RR camp Paribal Bandipora >> >> >> >> >> >> Mehrajudin Khah >> >> Abdul Salam >> >> August 12,2008 >> >> Aloosa gath Bandipora >> Killed at 15 RR camp Paribal Bandipora >> >> >> >> >> >> Javaid Ahmad >> >> >> >> August 12,2008 >> >> Mansbal >> >> >> >> >> >> Muhammad Aslam Khan >> >> >> >> August 12,2008 >> >> Kandiwara, Sagam, Kokernag >> >> >> >> >> >> Muhammad Saleem Shah >> >> Peer Muhammad Shah >> >> August 12 >> >> Naibasti Islamabad >> >> >> >> >> >> Showkat Ahmed Najar >> >> >> >> August 12 >> >> Marhama Bijbehara >> >> >> >> >> >> Sajjad Ahmad >> >> >> >> August 12 >> >> Rohama, Rafiabad >> >> >> >> >> >> Irfan Ahmad Ganie >> >> Bashir Ahmad >> >> August 11,2008 (Succumbed on Aug 12,2008) >> >> Seer Jagier Sopore >> Killed at Uri >> >> >> >> >> >> Muhammad Maqbool Killam >> >> Abdul Gani Kaleem >> >> August 12,2008 >> >> Kishtwar >> >> >> >> >> >> Gufraan >> >> >> >> August 12,2008 >> >> Thakrai, Kishtwar >> >> >> >> >> >> Gazanfar Sheikh (10) >> >> >> >> August 12,2008 >> >> Kishtwar >> >> >> >> >> >> Hafizullah Baba >> >> Muhammad Jamal >> >> August 12,2008 (Succumbed on Aug 13) >> >> Barthan Qamarwari >> Killed at Parimpora >> >> >> >> >> >> Faisal Ahmed Dar >> >> Showkat Ahmad Dar >> >> August 12,2008 (Succumbed on Aug 13) >> >> Nowhatta >> Killed at Baghi-Mehtab >> >> >> >> >> >> Tanveer Ahmed Handoo >> >> >> >> August 14,2008 >> >> Safa Kadal >> >> >> >> >> >> Muhammad Rafiq >> >> Muhammad Altaf >> >> August >> >> Zoonimar (killed at Saidapora) >> >> >> >> >> >> Latief Ahmad Wani >> >> Mohammad Amin >> >> August 17,2008 >> >> Khan colony, Chanapora >> Presently Pantachowk >> Beaten and scorched by rioters on August 5,died in AIIMS Delhi on >> August 17. >> >> >> >> >> >> Ghulam Qadir Wakil >> >> >> >> August 24,2008 succumbed on August 25,2008 >> >> Killed near Dalgate >> >> >> >> >> >> Zahid Ahmad Banday >> >> >> >> August 24,2008 >> >> Killed at Pushkar Khag, Beerwah, Budgam >> >> >> >> >> >> Mohammad Shafi Dar >> >> Ghulam Nabi >> >> August 25,2008 >> >> Killed at Hajan Chowk >> >> >> >> >> >> Naseema >> >> W/o Mohammad Ashraf >> >> August 25,2008 >> >> Killed at Hajan Chowk >> >> >> >> >> >> Shahid Ahmad Pahloo >> >> >> >> August 25,2008 >> >> Saderkot Balla >> Killed at Hajan Chowk >> >> >> >> >> >> Basit Bashir >> >> >> >> August 25,2008 >> >> Pulwama >> >> >> >> >> >> Fayaz Ahmad Wani >> >> >> >> August 25,2008 >> >> Pulwama >> >> >> >> >> >> Fahmeeda >> >> W/o Fayaz Ahmad >> >> August 25,2008 >> >> Chontipura Handwara >> >> >> >> >> >> Mohammad Yousuf Banday >> >> >> >> August 27,2008 >> >> Banday Mohalla Handwara >> Killed at Banday Mohalla >> >> >> >> >> >> Hilal Ahmad Mir >> >> Abdul Khaliq Mir >> >> August 27, 2008 >> >> Soibugh Budgam >> >> >> >> >> >> Ghulam Nabi Wani >> >> >> >> August 27, 2008 >> >> Soibugh Budgam. >> >> >> >> >> >> Showket Ahmad Khanday >> >> Mohammad Abdullah >> >> August 25, 2008 >> >> Narbal Hanzghad (Srinagar-Baramulla Highway) >> >> >> >> >> >> Name not ascertained yet >> >> >> >> August 11, 2008 >> >> Resident of Boniyar >> >> >> >> >> >> Name not ascertained yet >> >> >> >> August 12, 2008 >> >> Killed at Nagabal, Ganderbal >> >> >> >> >> >> Javiad Iqbal Bhat (Sumo Driver by profession) >> >> >> >> August 4-2008 >> >> Killed at Nowhatta-Srinagar >> >> >> >> >> >> Sajjad Ahmed Ganai (18) >> >> >> >> September 12, 2008 >> >> Malik Mohalla, Shopian >> >> >> >> >> >> Manzoor Afzal Sheikh (24) >> >> Mohammad Afzal Sheikh >> >> September 12, 2008 >> >> Kupwara >> Killed at Baramulla old town >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- >> list >> List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Shuddhabrata Sengupta The Sarai Programme at CSDS Raqs Media Collective shuddha at sarai.net www.sarai.net www.raqsmediacollective.net From ambarien at gmail.com Sat Sep 20 10:46:52 2008 From: ambarien at gmail.com (ambarien al qadar) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 10:46:52 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Terrorist' encounter at Batla House Message-ID: <5ea7953c0809192216h57d057fdpf797daa6817df182@mail.gmail.com> I was at the Mass Communication Research Center, Jamia, when the news of the 'encounter' came in. Late into the afternoon, when we were absolutely sure that the gunshots fell silent...(because we were constantly getting 'eyewitness' accounts that two 'terrorists' had been killed and their bodies had been dragged into the PCR van)...I was walking towards Zakir Nagar through Batla House. The road that leads to Batla House from Jamia Nagar was being manned by some six hundred policemen at the turn-about. People in the neighbourhood are now tensed about the possibility of policemen dressed as civilians combing the area. As I walked, I overheard the policemen say.."Ram-Ram bolo..Ram-Ram" . Some of them directly looked into my eye, gun toting and macho-posturing, and muttered some extra words under their breath. Apart from the media battery and police force, the roads were largely deserted. In one of the bylanes, a group of some eight year olds stood awestruck... they believed they had been witnesses to some film shooting. Earlier in the day, their teachers at the Batla House Government School had asked them to leave immediately once the news of the encounter came in. And one of the kids wondered what could have happened if one of the 'terrorists' (out of the two the police claimed had fled)...got into the school and held them at gunpoint? Others said they felt equally scared outside because there was so much chaos, Nobody knew where to go..and what could happen. There was an unmistaken awareness of 'narratives of terror' and the bunch of eight year olds endlessly predicted the outcome. The neighbouhood is far too familiar with circumstances of young men who come to Delhi from remote corners of UP and Bihar to 'build' a life. People here are casting doubts over the operation and claim that Atif was as normal a boy as any twenty-four year old could be...that anyone of them could be easily targetted and made out to be a terrorist in the future. This morning between 8am-9.30am, Headlines Today was running a story about the surrender of Zeeshan (the other 25 yr old student who the police claims is one of the two terrorists who managed to escape)at its headquarters. "His surrender itself raises questions about the claims of the police"...and while we were discussing this, the channel went on to scramble mode..and the transmission stopped. It is still stuck. One hour later, It is a still shot of Atif's elder brother in Headlines Today Studio. In his interview he had said that he did not believe the police claims. I checked all the other channels...nobody was running this story. All of them were mourning the death of Mohan Chand Sharma; the encounter specialist in Delhi Police. Patriotic scores like 'aye mere watan ke logon...' form a poignant backdrop against which a nation is made out to mourn. I am also deeply saddened by his death like everybody else but am wondering how certain other stories that are emerging since yesterday, have been..or will be.. hushed up. Ambarien Al Qadar From ambarien at gmail.com Sat Sep 20 17:08:19 2008 From: ambarien at gmail.com (ambarien al qadar) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 17:08:19 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] 'Terrorist' encounter at Batla House In-Reply-To: <5ea7953c0809192216h57d057fdpf797daa6817df182@mail.gmail.com> References: <5ea7953c0809192216h57d057fdpf797daa6817df182@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5ea7953c0809200438t52848a0dj7e7fd28a1ceaca62@mail.gmail.com> I was at the Mass Communication Research Center, Jamia, when the news of the 'encounter' came in. Late into the afternoon, when we were absolutely sure that the gunshots fell silent...(because we were constantly getting 'eyewitness' accounts that two 'terrorists' had been killed and their bodies had been dragged into the PCR van)...I was walking towards Zakir Nagar through Batla House. The road that leads to Batla House from Jamia Nagar was being manned by some six hundred policemen at the turn-about. People in the neighbourhood are now tensed about the possibility of policemen dressed as civilians combing the area. As I walked, I overheard the policemen say.."Ram-Ram bolo..Ram-Ram" . Some of them directly looked into my eye, gun toting and macho-posturing, and muttered some extra words under their breath. Apart from the media battery and police force, the roads were largely deserted. In one of the bylanes, a group of some eight year olds stood awestruck... they believed they had been witnesses to some film shooting. Earlier in the day, their teachers at the Batla House Government School had asked them to leave immediately once the news of the encounter came in. And one of the kids wondered what could have happened if one of the 'terrorists' (out of the two the police claimed had fled)...got into the school and held them at gunpoint? Others said they felt equally scared outside because there was so much chaos, Nobody knew where to go..and what could happen. There was an unmistaken awareness of 'narratives of terror' and the bunch of eight year olds endlessly predicted the outcome. The neighbouhood is far too familiar with circumstances of young men who come to Delhi from remote corners of UP and Bihar to 'build' a life. People here are casting doubts over the operation and claim that Atif was as normal a boy as any twenty-four year old could be...that anyone of them could be easily targetted and made out to be a terrorist in the future. This morning between 8am-9.30am, Headlines Today was running a story about the surrender of Zeeshan (the other 25 yr old student who the police claims is one of the two terrorists who managed to escape)at its headquarters. "His surrender itself raises questions about the claims of the police"...and while we were discussing this, the channel went on to scramble mode..and the transmission stopped. It is still stuck. One hour later, It is a still shot of Atif's elder brother in Headlines Today Studio. In his interview he had said that he did not believe the police claims. I checked all the other channels...nobody was running this story. All of them were mourning the death of Mohan Chand Sharma; the encounter specialist in Delhi Police. Patriotic scores like 'aye mere watan ke logon...' form a poignant backdrop against which a nation is made out to mourn. I am also deeply saddened by his death like everybody else but am wondering how certain other stories that are emerging since yesterday, have been..or will be.. hushed up. Ambarien Al Qadar From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sun Sep 21 00:15:46 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 23:45:46 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] When cowards run the State, the nation bleeds Message-ID: <6353c690809201145v37c08eecn33cb25be23e005f0@mail.gmail.com> When cowards run the State, the nation bleeds *Tarun Vijay | *September 17, 2008 http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/sep/17tarun.htm Again the same old stories, the same threats and same resolve of politicos, like wet, squeezed paper. We told you so, at that date and time, but you didn't listen. We asked for a stringent law. Our intelligence department was warned, yet no one acted. It's a plot to derail the peace process with Pakistan, we shall never get trapped but continue our *mohabbat*. They are not Islamists. Bad guys have no religion, so don't say it's Islamic terrorism. They come from nowhere. May be from Mars, but certainly not from Pakistan or Saudi Arabia. They are not our people, not Kashmiris or Delhi-ites. Don't embarrass Pakistan by pointing fingers at it or at SIMI or Hurriyat -- we are continuing with our Confidence Building Measures and such blasts aim to disrupt it. Why should we allow that? Another feature, another magazine: SIMI is an association like the YMCA, these communal hate-mongers have connived with the Congress government to implicate them wrongly while they were conducting adult education classes. Please see the truth from secular eyes and defeat the anti-Afzal Guru crowd. Maybe the next time we will include Afzal as a minister for internal security after having experimented with the Muslim League as a partner in governance. The Deoband's concerned maulvis will again issue a statement to be welcomed by all peace-loving people. Look, they have again said that their scriptures don't recommend this kind of violent jihad and killing innocent people. But no one would ask them how many killers of the jihadi variety have turned peaceniks and left their bomb factories after such dictates. 'Hindu intolerant groups behind such bomb blasts!' -- another secular television channel would scream -- because they create an atmosphere to malign Muslims and get votes, it's election time folks. These bomb blasts, like the Godhra train fire, have been planned by Hindu chauvinists. A job well done. We can all go to sleep. When cowards run the State, the nation bleeds. A will to eliminate the weeds and face the wrath of malevolent elements with the confidence of a victor is the prerequisite to be a ruler and, yes, to be a citizen. If it's there, you build a nation. If not, civilisations vanish. If citizens encourage and harbour the wicked, forget dates like December 13 that should be remembered, forget to take revenge on anti-nationals, continue with their late-night parties when dead bodies of their fellow citizens lie splattered in busy fashion markets, no one can save that deadwood society. Where writers and columnists advocate yielding to the gun-wielding secessionists because 'they want it', no one can save that country from disintegrating as every day new secessionists will emerge. It's useless to blame this party or that organisation. See what we have done and to what level the state of affairs have been brought to. Everything boils down to personal wars and wins, and homemade potboilers rule the top echelons of organisations. The nation as a matter of serious planning and vision has simply vanished off the agendas of those who are the known faces of our leadership and decision-making mechanism of the State. Personal jealousies, vendettas and *mandi*-isation of the high and mighty turn peoples' security into a joke of the ghostland where signal-jammers and black cat commandos iconise the Neros and the Republic is left to fend for itself. This is our state of affairs today. Any day, any time, anyone. Free Afzal committees. Visits to the Azamgarh home of a terrorist. Demand citizenship for Bangladeshi infiltrators. Demand ban on patriotic organisations. Win the election. That's the final aim of governance and our living. Only the people are to be blamed. It's a democracy. Choose those who bring you safety and succour. *If you choose the marauders you get back marauders.* The Indian people, as Indians alone, have done it marvellously before too whenever the occasion demanded solidarity and cohesion. Kargil saw it, 1965 saw it, 1962 had a great solidarity of the patriots. Always, it's the leaders and politicians who have failed the country and backstabbed the trust people had reposed in them. Peoples' power saw that the culprits behind the Uphaar cinema fire tragedy case were brought to book, however influential they may be. It was because of their pressure and media build-up that the Nandas were punished in the BMW case. The Right to Information Act is a great instrument given to the people not because politicians wanted it but there was public pressure to have it and finally it was done. And look how Jammu rose to see the tricolour win against the Pakistani flag- *wallah*s. No one had ever imagined a people can create an upsurge unknown in regional history and win too. Great things happen nimble-footed. The British never had ay inkling of the 1857 uprising till Mangal Pandey shot the British officer in Barrackpore. Jayaprakash Narayn's too was a movement whose expanse and impact no one had anticipated, and so was the Ram Janambhoomi movement that changed the contours of the Indian polity. If people will, they can. Indians will have to decide how many more will have to die before they feel compelled to rise in revolt. India needs a rebellion of Indian people who would merge all their other identities under one banner -- the tricolour. Forget temples, churches and mosques. The first to protect the church should be a Hindu like the first to protect a swami should be a Christian. That's where the nation gets life. When the nation is in peril, gods must be discovered in national unity and not within concrete structures. These ugly, nincompoop politicos need to be thrown into the dustbin lock, stock and barrel. The truth is we, as Indians, never paid a price for our independence and honour. When I had interviewed Morarji Desai, which turned out to be one of his last, in his Mumbai apartment, he said not more than five percent Indians had participated in the independence struggle. The rest were either too lazy to come out or had lined up before the British for *bakshish* and be their officers. Read what Abraham Lincoln did to save America from disintegration and his famous Gettysburg address and also his inaugural one as president. He accepted a civil war but refused the demand to divide America. Nearly seven lakh Americans died in that war, but a new sun rose on its horizon that inspired millions across the globe with its egalitarian and democratic values. *What sacrifices have we offered to save national integrity and the civil life of our nation?* Isn't it time to ask this question and rise in rebellion to say 'no' to this bloodbath unitedly? From indersalim at gmail.com Sun Sep 21 00:21:39 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 00:21:39 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] A post-national space opens. In-Reply-To: <13df7c120809182324p61f83c1bsb18139dbc9c19be5@mail.gmail.com> References: <8031BA28-E559-4475-8A1E-CB1754B59060@sarai.net> <13df7c120809172038m491455bw518ed46dae565d39@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70809182005u572414dbxa71fb3dae54af421@mail.gmail.com> <13df7c120809182025o28f7aac6hadba16639cf7bdc6@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70809182040t33139dfbkee592bd067c4c399@mail.gmail.com> <13df7c120809182324p61f83c1bsb18139dbc9c19be5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70809201151p210266d8r826dbada7f92287b@mail.gmail.com> dear rashneek well, that is your choice, i still beleive that fundamentalism in kashmir has not come from above, but becuase of bad policies of New Delhi towards kashmir. For example Turkey is a majority muslim country but it is quite progressive and secular. Even Lahore is better than srinagar in many ways. yes, about your expression, choor, chotal te monjigaer ( petty thieves, gays and pakora makers ) . the illitrate and poor people generally come under this catagory. right, and we have a sweeping expression for this lot............. i just thought of many things other than what it means to me and to our society. WHY I AM SO WISE ? http://www.geocities.com/thenietzschechannel/eh3.htm may be you read this,may be it will not fit into what you wanted to say, but it does tell a lot to me, i am prfoundly thinking about the what stupidity means to the being on this earth. life is too complext, you know that, and politics too is part of that complexity. it is not only about those who understand it and believe that they are wise, i guess, we are strangely at this point of presence, because of lot of unwise things that have happened in the past, and without that we might not have been here at all. thanks for this expression, love is On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 11:54 AM, rashneek kher wrote: > Inder, > > Sorry but havent understood or have intentionally missed what i said. > > Thanks anyway > > You do your bit,I will do mine... > > Rashneek > PS:Chotal doesnt mean GAY.... > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 9:10 AM, inder salim wrote: >> >> dear rashneek >> who did it ? i guess, the culprit is indian policies towards kashmir. >> >> but there are Anglo American policies, which are more lethal than we >> imagine. >> >> yes, i dont have much against choor chotal te monjigar ( thieves, >> gays, and pakorda makers ), as you see them in kashmir. >> >> lot of our life's best happens amongst people like these, i love that >> down to eath life. >> >> driven by elites, pure sophisticated life pattern which sigfnifies >> societal value judgement is non-vital to life force. we are in fact >> suffering from that artificial need to live a upper middle class life, >> which most of Indian Nation State is made up of. There is lot of >> innocnce ipoetry and music in rag pickers, homeless and orphans. >> >> so let us listen to sufi songs, which are still sung, celebrated and >> heard by most of the kashmiri muslims . you know t wiell. >> >> love >> is >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 8:55 AM, rashneek kher wrote: >> > Dear Inder, >> > >> > The edifice on which the separtist movement if that is the right word to >> > use >> > is itself so titled in favour of Pan Islamism that even people like me >> > who >> > would otherwise have probably been a mute spectator if not a supporter >> > have >> > also been forced to take a position. >> > If Kashmiri Muslims really want independence then they need to ask for >> > Kashmir's independence(greater kashmir) where the language isnt >> > Persio-arabic dialect of Kashmiri,where they acknowledge the glorious >> > periods pre arrival of Islam,where they accept that they drove away the >> > minorities as a part of the larger Pakistani plan,where they truly come >> > to >> > rebuild institutions and shrines they have desecrated,where ancient >> > fetivals >> > are celebrated as the festivals of the land(even Iran celebrates >> > Id-e-Navroz >> > and Pakistan celebrates BasanT),where as a majority community they have >> > the >> > magnanimity to take us equals and not infidels,where Kashmiriyat lives >> > in >> > essence and not in word. >> > Where they dont shout Seeta ko Ragda,Hanuman ko Ragda(as they did in >> > recent >> > protests) or Ae Zalmo aey Kafiro Kashmir hamara chod do. >> > Once the movement is truly indigeneous and not a pawn in the hands of >> > Pakistanis and supported by Petro-Dollars,who knows what shape it can >> > take.Since you are yourself a student of Kashmir you will know that the >> > true >> > Kashmiri Nationalists were people like Birbal Kachru,Kashyap Bandhu and >> > even >> > Nadim,the last one in particular wrote eloquently to the nation. >> > But if he was alive today even he would cried....and written...Mae Cham >> > ne >> > aash pagehech.... >> > Unfortunately the whole thing is in the hands of Choor,Chotal ti >> > Monjeghar(This I wouldnt translate), >> > The Shams Faqir among us is dead...so is Batwari and Ahad Zargar.I >> > wish Abdul Ahad would come back from his grave and lead us all and I >> > would >> > follow in unison to true Kashmiri Nationalist. >> > >> > Till then I live in Exile >> > >> > Love >> > >> > Rashneek >> > >> > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 8:35 AM, inder salim >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> Dear Rashneek >> >> >> >> Hypothetically, let us imagine that Kashmir is a free country with a >> >> constitution inspired by Islam, But with Kashmiri Pandits, never >> >> driven out, well protected. My guess is that you will still run away >> >> from that 2nd class citizenship. Right. This is what both Roy and >> >> Shuddha talk about, that why non-muslim population of J&K should live >> >> under a Nizam inspired by Islamic codes. My idea is that even >> >> majority of Muslim population of J&K too will face an equal disquiet >> >> if such a system is imposed on them. This is not 1008 AD, but 2008. >> >> Here, SAS Geeelani may see nothing wrong in it, but those who are >> >> interested in questioning will not be content with his claim. >> >> >> >> Butif we deny the chance to ' the middle path' what I call >> >> questioning part here, if we will become frigid and rigid in our >> >> stands, the valley politics will actually go in the hands of fascist >> >> right winged politicians. Unfortunately, that has happened. I have >> >> heard once some Jamat-i-islami leader saying that we understand RSS >> >> and its politics quite well, but we are confused with this Secularism >> >> in India. The same is true about RSS in their understanding of radical >> >> Islamic forces. For example, they both support each other as and when >> >> there is a Hussain like Issue, with some exceptions here or there, >> >> generally I see them as two sides of the same coin. >> >> >> >> So technically, with present Indian policies towards Kashmir, as >> >> Amar Nath land deals, or the law that only a Hindu Governor in J&K can >> >> be given the charge of Amarnath shrine Borad, will actually push the >> >> whole Kashmir in the hands of that Medieval right winged politics. >> >> Then any possible negotiations in future will take place between an >> >> Advani or a Geelani kind of politician. Few years back in a seminar >> >> after Muusharaf took over from Nawaz, I was surprised to hear from a >> >> Retired Army General in IIC that the Kashmir affairs should be >> >> directly handed over to the Army, because only Army understand Army. >> >> You can see actually, here in India too we have potential Generals in >> >> uniform who are quite willing to occupy the presidential hot seat. >> >> >> >> So ironically, I see you more a friend of Azadi in Kashmir than say >> >> Arundhati Roy. Opinions like Roy's are actually making it difficult >> >> for Azadi seekers in Kashmir. It is not easy in any case, but the >> >> demand to look inside will make it more difficult for them, which >> >> everybody avoids, be it here or there. The job of the sceptic is to >> >> make life difficult for others and for the self at the same time. By >> >> sceptic, I mean, open to that doubt which pushes the discourse to >> >> deeper layers of thought. There is probably no full stop, which is not >> >> perhaps good for a simple journalistic reporting, and taking easy >> >> sides from time to time. >> >> >> >> Full stops are like status quos, which signify ' death'. Life is like >> >> water and it moves. I think some tears behind tears makes you sceptic. >> >> >> >> I am hearing the popular song by Vijay Malla : andrim chugusish, >> >> daarav kien phat phat naran. Nathnan aalav saan che pharan kaaman >> >> vattan, manahy kah gov, sahravan manz naag vuzaan. Luk yaad chaanan…. >> >> ( inner voice is crying aloud through the windows of being. Our >> >> truest expression are wandering in unknown valleys. And springs would >> >> emerge in deserts if we know its meaning. People, if would listen to >> >> you …. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> With love >> >> is >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 9:08 AM, rashneek kher >> >> wrote: >> >> > Shudda, >> >> > >> >> > The only thing is that a Hindu Nepal did not drive out 5 lac muslims >> >> > to >> >> > become a Hindu State while your Islamic Republic of Kashmir would to >> >> > be >> >> > awash with the ethnic and religious cleansing of minority Pandits. >> >> > Equally interesting is the fact that you are writing these posts when >> >> > you >> >> > yourself have been guilty of spreading misinformation campaign on >> >> > Kashmir >> >> > either by saying that Pandits could have been killed by Ikhwans in >> >> > 1989 >> >> > or >> >> > that Sankarvarman destroyed Buddhist Viharas.So it is time for you to >> >> > go >> >> > back to school before you can reclaim the Kashmir expert position and >> >> > post >> >> > your solutions to a problem which either you dont understand or seem >> >> > to >> >> > misunderstand,misrepresent and misnterpret thus. >> >> > Although one would support any resolution which would avoid further >> >> > bloodshed but to grow Chinars on Batte Mazar,well let us wait and >> >> > see. >> >> > >> >> > Rashneek >> >> > >> >> > On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 2:34 AM, Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> >> > wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> Dear All, >> >> >> >> >> >> It has been a pleasure to witness the maturation of the debate on >> >> >> Kashmir, India and Azaadi on this list. Compared to where we were, >> >> >> even some months ago, the propensity towards name calling and abuse >> >> >> has gone down compared to the actual willingness to engage with the >> >> >> issues at hand,despite serious differences and disagreements. I >> >> >> would >> >> >> personally like to thank Sanjay Kak, Jeebesh Bagchi, Junaid >> >> >> Mohammed, >> >> >> Rahul Asthana, Kshmendra Kaul, Inder Salim, Partha Dasgupta, Tapas >> >> >> Ray, Radhikarajen, Radhakrishnan, Wali Arifi and Sonia Jabbar for >> >> >> all their contributions, I have gained a lot by listening and >> >> >> reading. I think we also need to thank, Arundhati Roy, Mukul >> >> >> Kesavan, >> >> >> A.G.Noorani and Umair Ahmed Muhajir, whose texts (forwarded on to >> >> >> this list by list members) have contributed to the depth and >> >> >> intensity of the exchanges. In all of this, one can see the Reader- >> >> >> List emerging, not just as a space for grandstanding, and the >> >> >> performance of rehearsed rhetorical routines, but as an actual space >> >> >> for thought and questioning. If this contributes in even a small way >> >> >> towards helping people think through the apparent intractability of >> >> >> the political relationships between all the peoples of Kashmir, >> >> >> India >> >> >> and Pakistan, then it will have redeemed its promise as a space for >> >> >> creative and imaginative discursivity in great measure. >> >> >> >> >> >> Apologies in advance for what will be a long posting. >> >> >> >> >> >> Having said all this, I would like to come back to the question that >> >> >> lies at the heart of the debate between the two positions representd >> >> >> by Roy and Muhajir. >> >> >> >> >> >> For let's look at what Roy is saying: >> >> >> >> >> >> 1. Roy's core argument can be summarized as follows : An end to the >> >> >> occupation of Kashmir by India is a price well worth paying if it is >> >> >> the means by which the dismantling of the violence that accompanies >> >> >> this occupation can be brought about. As she says towards the >> >> >> conclusion of her text "At the heart of it all is a moral question. >> >> >> Does any government have the right to take away people's liberty >> >> >> with >> >> >> military force?" >> >> >> >> >> >> Roy points out that too many people have died, or have been >> >> >> imprisoned, tortured or been made to disappear for us to pretend any >> >> >> longer that the continued and enforced attatchment of Kashmir to the >> >> >> project of the Indian nation state has any ethical basis. >> >> >> >> >> >> 2. Interestingly, Roy does not at any point suggest that she >> >> >> actually >> >> >> endorses any of the 'Islamist' or 'Secular' visions of a possible >> >> >> future Kashmir. And anyone who reads that endorsement into her text >> >> >> confuses her faithful reportage of what people may be saying on the >> >> >> streets of Kashmir with what she herself may feel. >> >> >> >> >> >> 3. Her doubts and reservations about the directions that the >> >> >> struggle >> >> >> for Azaadi is taking, which are listed at least 9 separate times in >> >> >> her essay (encompassing doubts about the treatement of all kinds of >> >> >> minorities, doubts about the consequences of not accounting for the >> >> >> exodus of Kashmiri Pandits, doubts about the nature of a so called >> >> >> Islamic state and so on) seem to suggest that she is amply sceptical >> >> >> of a great deal of the content of what is on offer by way of Azaadi >> >> >> in Kashmir. What she does not doubt is that people passionately >> >> >> believe that this Azaadi, (which they are either unable or unwilling >> >> >> to elaborate on) is desirable. She takes a stand which should be >> >> >> understandable to anyone with the slightest commitment to the >> >> >> virtues >> >> >> of democracy - if a majority of the people want something, you can >> >> >> argue with (and against ) what they want, but not with the fact that >> >> >> their is a reality to their desire. It is clear that the majority of >> >> >> people in the Kashmir valley do not want to remain committed to the >> >> >> Indian nation state. To insist that they stay committed is to ignore >> >> >> and destroy the reality of their desires. >> >> >> >> >> >> 4. Her criticism of India holding on to Kashmir may have one very >> >> >> simple point at its centre - the deeply unethical and brutal >> >> >> consequences of enforcing a form of governance on to an unwilling >> >> >> people, but her criticism of the unthought out nature of the >> >> >> intellectual response to this brutality by Kashmiris has at least 9 >> >> >> nuanced positions. These 9 positions need not be seen as signs of >> >> >> her >> >> >> hostility to the people of Kashmir, rather, they could be read as >> >> >> the >> >> >> criticism that stems from a committed, unpatronising solidarity. She >> >> >> >> >> >> 5. Personally, i found her most trenchant critique contained in the >> >> >> fragment that says (while considering what she found painful in the >> >> >> layered import of the slogan - "Nanga bhookha Hindustan, jaan se >> >> >> pyaara Pakistan (Naked, starving India, More precious than life >> >> >> itself >> >> >> —Pakistan). Roy says - "it was painful to listen to people who have >> >> >> suffered so much themselves mock others who suffer in different >> >> >> ways, >> >> >> but no less intensely, under the same oppressor. In that slogan I >> >> >> saw >> >> >> the seeds of how easily victims can become perpetrators." >> >> >> >> >> >> Seeing 'the seeds of how easily 'victims can become perpetrators' is >> >> >> seeing what nationalism, and the dream of national liberation >> >> >> actually means. And the one thing that Roy cannot be faulted for, at >> >> >> least in this article, is an inability to see and countenance the >> >> >> possibility of 'victims becoming perpetrators'. All nationalism, >> >> >> anchors its moral legitimacy in the idea that 'yesterdays victims, >> >> >> cannot do to others what has been done unto them'. Roy does not >> >> >> share >> >> >> in this delusion, and her essay while it is being read in India as a >> >> >> critique of the Indian state (which it no doubt is) would also no >> >> >> doubt be read in Kashmir as a critique of the painful limitations >> >> >> and >> >> >> narrow bandwidth of imagination of Kashmiri nationalism (and indeed >> >> >> of all nationalisms, of all ideologies that speak for and on behalf >> >> >> of 'nations in waiting') >> >> >> >> >> >> Now let us turn to the core of Muhajir is saying. I go along with >> >> >> much of what Muhajir says, and I find his arguments against >> >> >> 'nationalism' per se. compelling. Things turn a bit different >> >> >> however, the moment when he begins to qualify 'nationalisms' and >> >> >> weigh different kinds of nationalism as 'lesser' and 'greater' >> >> >> evils. >> >> >> >> >> >> After much ado, Muhajir's basic premise is as follows - the >> >> >> continuation of the occupation is a price well worth paying for the >> >> >> sake of the sake of the lesser of two evil's in so far as types of >> >> >> nation state are concerned. Muhajir believes that an independent >> >> >> Kashmiri Nation-State would inherently tend towards affirming an >> >> >> exclusionary principle, and that the Indian model of the nation >> >> >> state, for all its flaws, still retains the value of being an >> >> >> 'inclusive, pluralistic' (albeit imperfectly inclusive and >> >> >> pluralistic) model for a nation-state building. >> >> >> >> >> >> "they (nation states) are not all inhuman in precisely the same way; >> >> >> nor are they all equally inhuman, by which I simply mean that they >> >> >> are not all equally incapable of accommodating human difference, >> >> >> whether communitarian or otherwise." >> >> >> >> >> >> Let us ask, precisely how the Indian nation state has proved to be >> >> >> 'capable' of accomodating human difference? Without going into a >> >> >> great deal of detail, I would like to focus on the simple fact that >> >> >> the continued operation of the Armed Forces Special Powers Act, in >> >> >> Kashmir, and parts of the North East takes away the constitutional >> >> >> guarantee that the state provides to its citizens that they will not >> >> >> be deprived of life and liberty without due process of law. The >> >> >> AFSPA >> >> >> empowers Armed Forces Personnel to kill, detain and destroy the >> >> >> property of the people who happen to be under its jurisdiction with >> >> >> impunity. >> >> >> >> >> >> This means, that at least insofar as the basic guarantee of life is >> >> >> concerned, the areas where the AFSPA operates are not instances >> >> >> where >> >> >> the state demonstrates an 'equal capability to accommodate human >> >> >> difference'. For a Kashmiri, (and for someone in the North East) who >> >> >> has had to deal with death and disappearance as sanctioned under the >> >> >> AFSPA, the difference between being a Kashmiri, A Naga, a Manipuri >> >> >> and some other kind of 'Indian' can mean the difference between life >> >> >> and death. >> >> >> >> >> >> That this situation has continued to be sustained by the Indian >> >> >> state >> >> >> for 18 years in Kashmir, and 50 years in the North East, means that >> >> >> the Indian state does view the people who happen to live in these >> >> >> two >> >> >> vast swathes of territory in a somewhat different light. This is no >> >> >> longer something that can be viewed as an 'aberration' or as state >> >> >> excess. It is the way in which the Indian state functions 'normally' >> >> >> in Kashmir and in the North East. It 'accommodates' the difference >> >> >> of >> >> >> their people by maintaining the highest 'military to civilian' ratio >> >> >> in Kashmir and by the daily humiliations that it visits on a people >> >> >> it treats as its 'subjects' as a matter of stable policy because >> >> >> they >> >> >> happen to inhabit tracts of territory that are 'strategically' >> >> >> important for reasons of state. >> >> >> >> >> >> I have no doubt at all about the fact that the resistance to the >> >> >> Indian state that crystallizes in these areas, (whether in the form >> >> >> of the NSCSN (IM) or (K) or the PLA or the different factions of the >> >> >> miltiant resistance and their overground supporters in Kashmir) >> >> >> often >> >> >> occupy a space that is as auhoritarian as that occupied by the >> >> >> Indian >> >> >> state. But the people who inhabit these areas cannot be expected to >> >> >> rely on one form of authoritarianism to protect them from the >> >> >> depredations of another. >> >> >> >> >> >> In fact there is a rough equivalence in the two apparently >> >> >>diametrically opposite positions that say either 'no discussion and >> >> >> debate about what exactly 'independence' means until the Indian >> >> >> state >> >> >> vacates the territory' and 'no withdrawal of armed forces and >> >> >> special >> >> >> laws until the end of the insurgency'. Both of these positions need >> >> >> to be rejected. Roy does not fall into the trap of endorsing one in >> >> >> order to battle the other, in fact her explicit demand to her >> >> >> Kashmiri audience is to actually wrestle with the necessity of >> >> >> articulating the contours of the future that they desire for >> >> >> themselves. She says - >> >> >> >> >> >> "it is time for those who are part of the struggle to outline a >> >> >> vision for what kind of society they are fighting for. Perhaps it is >> >> >> time to offer people something more than martyrs, slogans and vague >> >> >> generalisations. Those who wish to turn to the Quran for guidance >> >> >> will no doubt find guidance there. But what of those who do not wish >> >> >> to do that, or for whom the Quran does not make place? Do the Hindus >> >> >> of Jammu and other minoritiesalso have the right to self- >> >> >> determination? Will the hundreds of thousands of Kashmiri Pandits >> >> >> living in exile, many of them in terrible poverty, have the right to >> >> >> return? Will they be paid reparations for the terrible losses they >> >> >> have suffered? Or will a free Kashmir do to its minorities what >> >> >> India >> >> >> has done to Kashmiris for 61 years? What will happen to homosexuals >> >> >> and adulterers and blasphemers? What of thieves and lafangas and >> >> >> writers who do not agree with the "complete social and moral code"? >> >> >> Will we be put to death as we are in Saudi Arabia? Will the cycle of >> >> >> death, repression and bloodshed continue? History offers many models >> >> >> for Kashmir's thinkers and intellectuals and politicians to study. >> >> >> What will the Kashmir of their dreams look like? Algeria? Iran? >> >> >> South >> >> >> Africa? Switzerland? Pakistan?" >> >> >> >> >> >> The discussion on this list has extended the logic of this demand. >> >> >> We >> >> >> have had people, especially Jeebesh, talk of the possibility of >> >> >> 'post >> >> >> national' paths as concrete possibilities, Sonia Jabbar has spoken >> >> >> of >> >> >> 'confederal South Asia', Rahul Asthana has spoken of a 'Hong Kong' >> >> >> like arrangement. All of these are as valid options as >> >> >> 'independence', and need to be considered in turn. >> >> >> >> >> >> Muhajir's text, actually does not offer us this range of >> >> >> possibilities. In the end, it asks Kashmiris to reconcile themselves >> >> >> to the brutality of the Indian occupation simply on the basis of the >> >> >> fact that it comes garbed in a normatively 'inclusive' form of >> >> >> nationalism. Actually, when a boot kicks your face in, it is a bit >> >> >> odd to console oneself with the fact that the boot happens to be a >> >> >> happily 'secular' one. I don't quite see how doing so could possibly >> >> >> relieve the agony of having your face kicked in. Even so, I welcome >> >> >> the fact that it has acted as a catalyst in terms of leading us >> >> >> towards the possibility of hinking this through outside the familiar >> >> >> and exhausted tropes of nation states. >> >> >> >> >> >> So, what might a future Kashmir be. Let me throw my own two bits >> >> >> into >> >> >> the ring, following on the lines sketched out by Jeebesh. In doing >> >> >> this, I take the term 'Azaadi' seriously, and interpret it to mean >> >> >> the liberation, not only from external, but also 'internal' >> >> >> domination, and it is this that colours my perspective on possible >> >> >> futures for Kashmir. >> >> >> >> >> >> 1. Demilitarization of Jammu and Kashmir. The 700,000 Indian >> >> >> soldiers >> >> >> in Indian Occupied Kashmir to withdraw, (south of Jammu) the 50,000+ >> >> >> Pakistani soldiers in Pakistani Occupied Kashmir to withdraw (west >> >> >> of >> >> >> POK and Northern Areas). All militias (insurgent or counter >> >> >> insurgent) and paramilitaries to decommission weapons and demobilize >> >> >> under international observation (as happened in Northern Ireland) . >> >> >> The process of withdrawal, decommissioing and demobilizing to take >> >> >> place under the auspices of an international body within a UN >> >> >> mandate >> >> >> (as happened in East Timor and Bosnia). A UN peacekeeping force to >> >> >> be >> >> >> stationed in Kashmir, paid for by the Governments of India, Pakistan >> >> >> and China (as reparations) This could have peacekeepers from >> >> >> Bosnia, >> >> >> East Timor, Iraqi Kurdistan, Norway and Lebanon. >> >> >> >> >> >> 2. A cooling period of five to seven years, during which Jammu and >> >> >> Kashmir (including present day 'Azad' Kashmir, Northern Areas in >> >> >> Pakistan and Ladakh in India as well as the Aksai Chin and Karakorum >> >> >> regions ceded or annexed by China) is governed as a UN mandated >> >> >> territory, with full local autonomy, with the presence of the UN >> >> >> Peacekeeping Force at limited levels. Normal, unrestricted political >> >> >> activity, complete freedom of speech and association and local >> >> >> governance to determine quesitons of local importance. Free movement >> >> >> of people, and free trade, across the LOC. People of J&K to be >> >> >> issued >> >> >> special travel documents for 'stateless people'. People of India, >> >> >> Pakistan, Afghanistan, Tibet and Central Asian republics can travel >> >> >> without visas to J&K. All others to receive visas on arrival, >> >> >> Adminstered by the UN administration. Eventually, people in J&K to >> >> >> be >> >> >> given the freedom to opt for cascading forms of dual citizenship. >> >> >> J&K >> >> >> to have a twenty year tax holiday, fiscal burden of administration >> >> >> to >> >> >> be on the UN. People not domiciled in J&K not to have the right to >> >> >> own property in land in the region. >> >> >> >> >> >> 3. All displaced people (including those displaced in 1947, 1965, >> >> >> 1971, 1989 and after) of all denominations (Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist >> >> >> and others) to be allowed right of honourable return, with >> >> >> reparations in the event of loss or destruction of property. >> >> >> Indigenous Nomadic peoples to have freedom of movement across the >> >> >> entire territory of J&K. >> >> >> >> >> >> 4. A constituent assembly to be set up during the five year cooling >> >> >> period on the basis of universal adult franchise, to discuss the >> >> >> future constitutional arrangements for J&K. Plebiscite to be held, >> >> >> under UN auspices, with the presence of international observers, >> >> >> after five years to determine the exact nature of constitutional >> >> >> arrangements. The constituent assembly is to be guided to develop >> >> >> models of statehood without the necessity of a standing army, >> >> >> (Japan's post war constitution can be a basis for a state which >> >> >> gives >> >> >> up the right to conduct war and maintain a standing army) so that a >> >> >> future free territory of Kashmir does not represent a threat to any >> >> >> of its neighbours. India. Pakistan and China, to give guarantees to >> >> >> protect the independence and sovereignty of Kashmir, to undertake >> >> >> not >> >> >> to invade or station their armed forces in J&K. J&K to be declared a >> >> >> 'zone of peace' with special heritage protection for all religious >> >> >> and culturally important sites and environmentally fragile zones. >> >> >> >> >> >> 5. I am not averse to an EU style South Asian Union, especially if >> >> >> it >> >> >> provides for freedom of movement between the different parts of >> >> >> South >> >> >> Asia, and makes borders and border controls in the region >> >> >> irrelevant. >> >> >> In some ways, I think that this will be inevitable. But the terms >> >> >> for >> >> >> participation in this union need to be democratic and equitable. It >> >> >> hardly matters to me as to whether the people of J&K participate >> >> >> within this arrangement as 'Indians', 'Pakistanis' or as >> >> >> 'Independent' or as 'members of a 'post national entity'. The >> >> >> crucial >> >> >> thing is, if they do not want to participate in this arrangement as >> >> >> 'Indians', nothing should compel them to do so. >> >> >> >> >> >> I see all of the above as practical and realizable goals. The most >> >> >> important obstacle is the presence of large bodies of official and >> >> >> informal armed men, once those are removed, anything is possible. >> >> >> There are many territories in the world, ranging from the Aaland >> >> >> Islands, to Andorra, to Northern Ireland, to Hong Kong, to South >> >> >> Tyrol whose constitutional contours contain elements that may be >> >> >> useful for thinking 'out of the box' solutions to the Kashmir >> >> >> dispute. In fact the so called step by step formula put forward by >> >> >> Musharraf during the Agra Summit had a lot that could have been >> >> >> thought through >> >> >> >> >> >> Siddharth Varadarjan, writing in 'Newsline' has provided a useful >> >> >> summary of some of these possibilities, see - >> >> >> http://www.newsline.com.pk/NewsNov2004/cover3nov2004.htm >> >> >> >> >> >> Whatever be the possibilities, they will probably need a >> >> >> comprehensive measure of demilitarization to become workable. >> >> >> Demilitarization, in its simplest and most effective sense means the >> >> >> 'abolition of the standing army'. >> >> >> >> >> >> It needs to be remembered, that for about fifty odd years, the >> >> >> 'abolition of the standing army' was the standard demand of every >> >> >> respectable socialist, social democratic, anarchist and working >> >> >> class >> >> >> party in the world from the mid nineteenth century onwards. The >> >> >> abolition of standing armies was a mainstream, respectable slogan, >> >> >> it >> >> >> had nothing dreamy or utopian about it. The first world war put an >> >> >> end to this vigorous tradition of practical pacifism in the >> >> >> International Working Class Movement. Perhaps the future of Kashmir >> >> >> can bring this utterly human demand back on the agenda for the rest >> >> >> of the world in a real sense. If Kashmiri people, and their >> >> >> leaderships seize this opportunity to demand an abolition of >> >> >> standing >> >> >> armies on their territory they will have made a fundamental >> >> >> contribution to world history. I sincerely hope that they respond >> >> >> positively to the challenge that this opportunity represents. >> >> >> >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> >> >> Finally, a word about the confessional character of a state, or its >> >> >> secular, or non secular basis. As a person with no interest >> >> >> whatsoever in perpetuating the nation state as a form of human >> >> >> organization, I refuse to make the case for 'secular' states as >> >> >> being >> >> >> necessarily better or worse than 'non secular' ones. I think that >> >> >> states need to be judged, not on their formal accotrements, but on >> >> >> their actual conduct. >> >> >> >> >> >> Technically, the United Kingdom is not a secular state. The United >> >> >> Kingdom has a an official state church, and the head of state is >> >> >> also >> >> >> the head of the Church of England. Yet, it treats its minorities >> >> >> better than say, Turkey, or France, both of which are secular state. >> >> >> Saudi Arabia is a nightmare of a non secular state, and China is a >> >> >> nightmare of a secular state, insofar as issues pertaining to the >> >> >> freedom of conscience is concerned. IN our own neighbourhood, the >> >> >> Indian state has lived quite happily with the fact that until >> >> >> recently, Nepal was an autocratic, theocratic monarchy within the >> >> >> hands of a single corrupt dynasty. This dynasty also bankrolled >> >> >> Hindu >> >> >> fundamentalist outfits in India, and at one time offered refuge (as >> >> >> a >> >> >> fleeing tyrant) to Indira Gandhi after she had been defeated in >> >> >> 1977. >> >> >> I have never heard anyone say that Nepal's theocratic, corrupt, >> >> >> autocratic monarchy was a problem for anyone other than the people >> >> >> of >> >> >> Nepal (and they have quite competently got rid of that problem). I >> >> >> do >> >> >> not hear people say that where a revived Lama State in Tibet to >> >> >> exist, it would be a problem for India. Why then would the >> >> >> possibility of an Islamic, or even an Islamist state in Kashmir (if >> >> >> at all that came to pass, which may or may not be likely) be a >> >> >> necessary problem for India, If anything, it should be a problem (if >> >> >> it were to be a problem) that the people of Kashmir would have to >> >> >> deal with, in their own fashion, in their own time. >> >> >> >> >> >> Those of us who believe that the state should not interfere in the >> >> >> private lives of people, and in matters of faith, conscience and >> >> >> doubt, would find ways of supporting that struggle, if it were to >> >> >> take place, in a possible future Kashmir. If it were not to take >> >> >> place, I would advise that we reconcile ourselves to the presence of >> >> >> an Islamic Kashmir in our neighbourhood, exactly as we have >> >> >> reconciled ourselves to a Hindu State in Nepal all these decades. I >> >> >> cannot see how one can be worse than the other. >> >> >> >> >> >> regards, >> >> >> >> >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > Rashneek Kher >> >> > Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten Human Tragedy >> >> > http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com >> >> > http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com >> >> > _________________________________________ >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> subscribe in the subject header. >> >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Rashneek Kher >> > Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten Human Tragedy >> > http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com >> > http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com > > > > -- > Rashneek Kher > Wandhama Massacre-The Forgotten Human Tragedy > http://www.kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com > http://www.nietzschereborn.blogspot.com > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From indersalim at gmail.com Sun Sep 21 00:25:30 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 00:25:30 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] When cowards run the State, the nation bleeds In-Reply-To: <6353c690809201145v37c08eecn33cb25be23e005f0@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690809201145v37c08eecn33cb25be23e005f0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70809201155o58db575cuf39f2cc4dbd246c7@mail.gmail.com> dear aditya, just want to know what is your reaction to Paswan's demand to ban Bajrang Dal? i think he should have demanded this a decade earlier, when we demand a ban on Simi we should automatically ban BajrangDal and VHP ? and if not , just tell me why, if the Govt. fails to ban BajragDal, they are truly cowards, this is to restore some basic components of secularism in india. love is On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 12:15 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > When cowards run the State, the nation bleeds > > *Tarun Vijay | *September 17, 2008 > > http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/sep/17tarun.htm > > Again the same old stories, the same threats and same resolve of politicos, > like wet, squeezed paper. We told you so, at that date and time, but you > didn't listen. We asked for a stringent law. Our intelligence department was > warned, yet no one acted. > > It's a plot to derail the peace process with Pakistan, we shall never get > trapped but continue our *mohabbat*. They are not Islamists. Bad guys have > no religion, so don't say it's Islamic terrorism. They come from nowhere. > May be from Mars, but certainly not from Pakistan or Saudi Arabia. They are > not our people, not Kashmiris or Delhi-ites. > > Don't embarrass Pakistan by pointing fingers at it or at SIMI or Hurriyat -- > we are continuing with our Confidence Building Measures and such blasts aim > to disrupt it. Why should we allow that? > > Another feature, another magazine: SIMI is an association like the YMCA, > these communal hate-mongers have connived with the Congress government to > implicate them wrongly while they were conducting adult education classes. > Please see the truth from secular eyes and defeat the anti-Afzal Guru crowd. > Maybe the next time we will include Afzal as a minister for internal > security after having experimented with the Muslim League as a partner in > governance. > > The Deoband's concerned maulvis will again issue a statement to be welcomed > by all peace-loving people. Look, they have again said that their scriptures > don't recommend this kind of violent jihad and killing innocent people. But > no one would ask them how many killers of the jihadi variety have turned > peaceniks and left their bomb factories after such dictates. > > 'Hindu intolerant groups behind such bomb blasts!' -- another secular > television channel would scream -- because they create an atmosphere to > malign Muslims and get votes, it's election time folks. These bomb blasts, > like the Godhra train fire, have been planned by Hindu chauvinists. > > A job well done. We can all go to sleep. > > When cowards run the State, the nation bleeds. > > A will to eliminate the weeds and face the wrath of malevolent elements with > the confidence of a victor is the prerequisite to be a ruler and, yes, to be > a citizen. If it's there, you build a nation. If not, civilisations vanish. > > If citizens encourage and harbour the wicked, forget dates like December 13 > that should be remembered, forget to take revenge on anti-nationals, > continue with their late-night parties when dead bodies of their fellow > citizens lie splattered in busy fashion markets, no one can save that > deadwood society. > > Where writers and columnists advocate yielding to the gun-wielding > secessionists because 'they want it', no one can save that country from > disintegrating as every day new secessionists will emerge. > > It's useless to blame this party or that organisation. See what we have done > and to what level the state of affairs have been brought to. Everything > boils down to personal wars and wins, and homemade potboilers rule the top > echelons of organisations. > > The nation as a matter of serious planning and vision has simply vanished > off the agendas of those who are the known faces of our leadership and > decision-making mechanism of the State. > > Personal jealousies, vendettas and *mandi*-isation of the high and mighty > turn peoples' security into a joke of the ghostland where signal-jammers and > black cat commandos iconise the Neros and the Republic is left to fend for > itself. > > This is our state of affairs today. > > Any day, any time, anyone. > > Free Afzal committees. Visits to the Azamgarh home of a terrorist. Demand > citizenship for Bangladeshi infiltrators. Demand ban on patriotic > organisations. Win the election. That's the final aim of governance and our > living. Only the people are to be blamed. It's a democracy. Choose those who > bring you safety and succour. *If you choose the marauders you get back > marauders.* > > The Indian people, as Indians alone, have done it marvellously before too > whenever the occasion demanded solidarity and cohesion. Kargil saw it, 1965 > saw it, 1962 had a great solidarity of the patriots. Always, it's the > leaders and politicians who have failed the country and backstabbed the > trust people had reposed in them. > > Peoples' power saw that the culprits behind the Uphaar cinema fire tragedy > case were brought to book, however influential they may be. It was because > of their pressure and media build-up that the Nandas were punished in the > BMW case. The Right to Information Act is a great instrument given to the > people not because politicians wanted it but there was public pressure to > have it and finally it was done. > > And look how Jammu rose to see the tricolour win against the Pakistani flag- > *wallah*s. No one had ever imagined a people can create an upsurge unknown > in regional history and win too. Great things happen nimble-footed. The > British never had ay inkling of the 1857 uprising till Mangal Pandey shot > the British officer in Barrackpore. Jayaprakash Narayn's too was a movement > whose expanse and impact no one had anticipated, and so was the Ram > Janambhoomi movement that changed the contours of the Indian polity. > > If people will, they can. > > Indians will have to decide how many more will have to die before they feel > compelled to rise in revolt. India needs a rebellion of Indian people who > would merge all their other identities under one banner -- the tricolour. > Forget temples, churches and mosques. The first to protect the church should > be a Hindu like the first to protect a swami should be a Christian. That's > where the nation gets life. > > When the nation is in peril, gods must be discovered in national unity and > not within concrete structures. These ugly, nincompoop politicos need to be > thrown into the dustbin lock, stock and barrel. The truth is we, as Indians, > never paid a price for our independence and honour. When I had interviewed > Morarji Desai, which turned out to be one of his last, in his Mumbai > apartment, he said not more than five percent Indians had participated in > the independence struggle. The rest were either too lazy to come out or had > lined up before the British for *bakshish* and be their officers. > > Read what Abraham Lincoln did to save America from disintegration and his > famous Gettysburg address and also his inaugural one as president. He > accepted a civil war but refused the demand to divide America. Nearly seven > lakh Americans died in that war, but a new sun rose on its horizon that > inspired millions across the globe with its egalitarian and democratic > values. > > *What sacrifices have we offered to save national integrity and the civil > life of our nation?* > > Isn't it time to ask this question and rise in rebellion to say 'no' to this > bloodbath unitedly? > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From kauladityaraj at gmail.com Sun Sep 21 00:37:43 2008 From: kauladityaraj at gmail.com (Aditya Raj Kaul) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 00:07:43 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Trespassers in Kashmir? Message-ID: <6353c690809201207p3bdfe199hfc9cd82471cc1619@mail.gmail.com> Trespassers in Kashmir? *Khushwant Singh * September 19, 2008 I have yet to hear a Kashmiri Muslim describe himself as Indian. It was, and is to this day: "I am a Kashmiri." Perhaps among the exceptions are Sheikh Abdullah, his son Farooq and grandson Omar. Right from 1947, whenever India played cricket matches against Pakistan, Kashmiri Muslims supported Pakistan. If you don't believe me, read Basharat Peer's Curfewed Night (Random House). Don't dismiss this as a trivial aberration because it does reveal the Kashmiri Muslim's mindset. Now it has been revealed for all to see. They want us, Indians, out of the Valley. They may or may not throw in their lot with chronically unstable Pakistan. But have the leaders demanding azadi from India considered the consequences that may follow our getting out of the Valley? The language they use to rouse the rabble indicates they haven't. And that applies to leaders of all the separatist factions. The most serious consequences of *azadi* will be the exodus of non-Muslims — Kashmiri Pandits and Sikhs — from the Valley. Don't accept their assurances that it will not happen. It happened when Kashmiri Pandits left the Valley in large numbers because they felt insecure. Mohammad Ali Jinnah and Jawaharlal Nehru gave us similar assurances preceding the Partition. If and when Hindus and Sikhs are pushed out of the Valley, right-wing Hindu groups, extending from the RSS, the VHP, the Shiv Sena, the Bajrang Dal to the BJP will press for the expulsion of Muslims from Jammu (where they are in majority in two tehsils) and elsewhere. The Valley's only commercial outlets and tourism is linked to India. There is not a hotel in the country that does not have a shop selling Kashmiri handicrafts, carpets and shawls. Thousands of Kashmiri Muslims work as labourers in Indian towns and cities. Will not their future be jeopardised by the call for azadi? If there is the slightest risk of starting mass migrations, we must reject it, come what may. The situation has been going out of hand since 1990. Basharat Peer tells us that ever since, thousands of Kashmiris have crossed over to Pakistan to get military training and arms and sneaked back into the Valley to create mayhem and murder. The locals give them shelter and food. The only response India could make was to send in more troops, impose severe restraints on the locals and kill those they thought were anti-Indian militants. Every village in the Valley has its quota of unmarked graves. How long can this be allowed to go on? Give the Valley azadi it wants. But spell it out to mean only internal autonomy to manage its affairs. No more. India must retain its military presence to guard its frontiers against intruders. But at all costs, put an end to this sorry state of affairs. From indersalim at gmail.com Sun Sep 21 00:43:07 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 00:43:07 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Today's "media circus" at Jamia In-Reply-To: References: <77CF3B10-11CF-4CCE-A080-CC870E7044D1@sarai.net> <737889.54388.qm@web53601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <47e122a70809192028m2cfcf1c9t42bef9fbf4235fee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70809201213m5c87c07emfbed530465e61b4a@mail.gmail.com> dear Lalit we are truely not aware about the feelings of those who endure the loss of their near and dear one in a violent way. we dont know the inner mental process of an individual who see their women folk raped and murdered and burned to death by angry mobs. just dont know, yes, it is a good feeling that kashmiri pandits have not met those dangerouls elements who utilize this injured ready-made for their own gains. you inference that kashmiri pandits too should have become terrorists is not what i mean. all i said that why we dont talk whey they are hurt. yes, i urgently want to know from you also, that why we dont demand an immediate arrest of Parveen Tagodia, and a immediate ban on Bajrang Dal/VHP. now since, we all agree that Muslims were badly at the receving end in Gjuarat and Mumbai yes, about minority in the valley , i have time and again pointed out that kashmiri pandits suffered, too badly, more than one can express in words, and those responsible should be brought to the book ,and all terrorisits organizations , should be banned, yes, the political process has its tools: talking. that is what we too are doing with love is is On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 3:02 PM, Lalit Ambardar wrote: > Dear Inder, > > > > It is not difficult to trace the Jihadi terror trail invariably to Kashmir > or via Kashmir to POK. > > It was only last week a known commander of HUJI was killed in Kishtwar. For > the 2005 Diwali eve serial bombings in Delhi one of the main culprits- a > Kashmiri Muslim is on trial. About the Parliament attack, we know all the > role of Kashmiri pan Islamists. And let us not forget that the clerics from > UP & Bihar had a major role in the indoctrination process in Kashmir. > > > > > > And I do not agree at all that the Muslim community as whole should be held > responsible for the Jihadi terrorism. In fact I feel saddened that Muslims, > because of some of their co-religionists who have chosen the path of pan > Islamism are expected to prove their allegiance to India every time there > was a terror attack. > > > > We are talking about a 'mind set'. A Bangalury based young aeronautics > engineer does not go all the way to faraway Glasgow to blow himself up there > to avenge some 'riot' in his backyard back home. Then there was this > Birmingham born Bilal who blew himself up in a suicide car bombing in > Srinagar in 2000. > > > > The alleged 'issues' that you have attempted to raise as 'justified grounds' > for terrorism are debatable & I suggest should not become part of this > debate. After all you & me & others aren't stupids who spend so much of time > on this forum on discussions. It is shocking to see the known sympathisers > of Kashmiri Muslim separatists citing your 'argument' on the TV screens. > > > > By justifying 'terrorism' on the grounds of perceived injustice, you are > only encouraging further mayhem & anarchy. > > > > By the way what was the provocation that lead to the ethnic cleansing of the > Hindu Pandits in the valley? > > > > If one would go by your logic then the exiled Hindu Pandits should have > raised an army of insurgents to avenge the brutalities inflicted on them by > the Kashmiri pan Islamists. > > > > Don't forget & rightly so there has been no retaliation against the inhuman > treatment meted out to the minuscule minority of Hindu Pandits at the hands > of the zealots in the valley. > > > > Pandits continue to suffer the ignominy of being refugees in their own > country. Pandits do have complains against their erstwhile neighbours, > colleagues, friends who failed to protect them. Yet the bonhomie still > exists. Kashmiriyat has been dumped & quite brazenly in the recent past in > the valley but it still survives in the Hindu Pandit refugee camps out side > Kashmir. > > Regards > > LA > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > ________________________________ >> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 08:58:41 +0530 >> From: indersalim at gmail.com >> To: reader-list at sarai.net >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Today's "media circus" at Jamia >> >> Dear Lalit >> Apparently, Delhi blasts have nothing to do with Kashmir problem. >> Let us dismiss Yousf's media circus theory regarding encounter in >> Jamia, but let us think why it happened. >> >> can we dismiss the fact that Babri Masjid demolition happened, Bombay >> riots, and then Gujarat where most of the muslim population had to >> suffer for no fault of theirs. >> >> How is it surprising that some of the affected get motivated to do >> this ugly work in Delhi or elsewhere. Who is the culprit? >> >> Media circus is a fact New World Order, we are still learning to live with >> it. >> All we need to know is that how it works, what looks representation >> of reality is truly a manufactured thing from word go. >> >> love >> is >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 6:02 AM, Rahul Asthana >> wrote: >> > Did you guys factor in the small detail that a policeman has died?Was it >> > to get more ratings for the "media circus" ? >> > http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/sep/19del1.htm >> > Mohan Chand Sharma, inspector of the Delhi [Images] Police Special Cell >> > who was critically injured during an encounter with Delhi blasts-linked >> > terrorists, died in a hospital on Friday evening. >> > >> > "We have lost our best man," Joint Commissioner of Police (Special Cell) >> > Karnal Singh told PTI. >> > >> > Forty-one-year-old Sharma, a highly decorated officer who received three >> > bullet injuries in his abdomen, thigh and right arm in the gunbattle at >> > Jamia Nagar in South Delhi, succumbed to his injuries at the Holy Family >> > hospital at 7 pm, doctors attending him said. >> > >> > A recipient of seven gallantry medals, Sharma, who had led the police >> > team against the terrorists wanted in connection with the Delhi and >> > Ahmedabad [Images] blasts, underwent an operation to remove the bullets from >> > his body. >> > >> > The profusely-bleeding officer was taken to the hospital. >> > --- On Sat, 9/20/08, Shuddhabrata Sengupta wrote: >> > >> >> From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> >> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Today's "media circus" at Jamia >> >> To: "Yousuf" >> >> Cc: "sarai list" >> >> Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008, 2:01 AM >> >> Dear Yousuf, >> >> >> >> Many thanks for this post and for sharing your thoughts on >> >> the 'media >> >> circus'. >> >> >> >> Watching the 'media circus' unfold on television, I >> >> was appalled at >> >> the manner in which the 'spectacle' was priming >> >> itself up through the >> >> day. A channel called 'News 24' for instance, was >> >> repeatedly >> >> informing us that it 'was the first to transmit >> >> pictures of the >> >> encounter' etc, as if it had just won India yet another >> >> sharp- >> >> shooting gold medal in the Olympics. >> >> >> >> A thought that did strike me was, "'how much more >> >> disrespectful can >> >> the blood-lust of this spectacle of a hunt, get to all >> >> those who died >> >> in today's 'Encounter' , be they policemen on >> >> duty, or 'alleged' >> >> terrorists ?" >> >> >> >> I think we need to give some serious thought to the fact >> >> that these >> >> days police encounters are actually an extended part of >> >> 'Reality >> >> TV' (which in any case, the entire genre should be more >> >> appropriately >> >> called 'Surreality TV'). That seem scripted well in >> >> advance. How else >> >> (as you so cogently point out) can one explain the sudden >> >> appearance >> >> of large OB vans, with heavy duty equipment, battling heavy >> >> rush hour >> >> traffic, in a congested area like Jamia Nagar, just at the >> >> 'nick of >> >> time'? >> >> >> >> The TV commentators, throughout the day, referred to what >> >> their >> >> 'sources' in the Special Cell, or in the Delhi >> >> Police, told them. I >> >> wondered to what degree the entire 'Operation' was >> >> co-scripted, >> >> between these 'sources' and the newsrooms of >> >> Television channels. >> >> There seems something almost monotonously repetitive in >> >> these >> >> situations. A strange feeling of Deja-Vu. Something tells >> >> me we have >> >> seen this before. Or is it just that I have watched way too >> >> much >> >> 'reality' ? >> >> >> >> regards >> >> >> >> Shuddha >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On 19-Sep-08, at 8:25 PM, Yousuf wrote: >> >> >> >> > Friends >> >> > I have titled this message the "media circus", >> >> although I am >> >> > actually referring to this morning's so-called >> >> encounter killing of >> >> > two young people referred to as "terrorists" in >> >> L-18 Batla House, >> >> > Jamia Nagar, by the Delhi police. I call it media >> >> circus because >> >> > that's what I think it really is, like many more >> >> such incidents. >> >> > >> >> > The incident happened in my neigbourhood, about 150 >> >> meters from my >> >> > house. So I have the opportunity to see how things are >> >> turning up. >> >> > I had gone out of the area for some work while the >> >> incident was >> >> > taking place around 11 am, but found it impossible to >> >> reach back >> >> > home 2 hours later, because the road for about 1 and a >> >> half >> >> > kilometer (on both sides) was completely blocked, not >> >> by the police >> >> > vehicles, but by the parked OB vans of the countless >> >> TV channels, >> >> > some of which I never heard of before. Each of these >> >> vehicles had >> >> > its generators on, and thick video cables jetting out >> >> of them for >> >> > several meters to the other end where the cameraperson >> >> and the >> >> > excited anchor were shouting how two terrorists have >> >> been killed in >> >> > the fierce encounter. Most local people are surprised >> >> at the speed >> >> > with which the TV crews arrived here and in such large >> >> number. >> >> > Apparently, the Delhi Police had already told a >> >> section of the >> >> > press they are going for a raid in Batla House, based >> >> > on the suspect Abu Bashir's tip-off (I heard this >> >> from a anchor on >> >> > Times NOW channel, although Police chief Dadwal is now >> >> denying >> >> > there is any link with Abu Bashir), but they didn't >> >> obviously say >> >> > it was going to be an encounter. Its strange that the >> >> local >> >> > residents got to know about the incident only after >> >> the two people >> >> > had been killed – many in fact learnt it from the >> >> Aaj-tak channel. >> >> > They claim they heard only the police firing and no >> >> gunshots from >> >> > inside the flat, which the police claim have injured >> >> two of their >> >> > constables. >> >> > >> >> > Most of you watching news TV in your homes may have >> >> already heard >> >> > the cacophony of the TV anchors, each trying to be >> >> shriller than >> >> > the other to prove that the local members of the >> >> Indian Mujahideen >> >> > have been killed. They now seem to have memorized >> >> their lines on >> >> > this issue well, since they have to repeat the same >> >> thing again and >> >> > again. The graphics, animated logos, crawling tickers, >> >> and dramatic >> >> > music/soundtrack to go with such coverage are always >> >> ready in the >> >> > cans to be used at short notice. A cameraman running >> >> towards Batla >> >> > House is nibbling at a burger while he holds on to a >> >> camera in his >> >> > other hand. I saw two members of a TV crew outside the >> >> Holy Family >> >> > Hospital (where the injured policemen have been taken) >> >> fiercely >> >> > fight about which camera angle would look best for a >> >> sound byte. >> >> > Everything looks as if planned and part of the usual >> >> business. The >> >> > cops are happily allowing the media to climb any wall >> >> to get the >> >> > best shot while they beat the local >> >> > rickshawpullers to leave the roads clean. The message >> >> has got >> >> > across loud and clear: we told you – Batla House is >> >> a haven of >> >> > terrorists. >> >> > >> >> > But many things sound fishy. I've been hearing a lot >> >> of angry >> >> > conversations in the neighborhood: people are asking >> >> that if the >> >> > police had only planned a simple raid (which they did >> >> 2 days ago in >> >> > Zakir Nagar and Abul Fazl Enclave too), why did they >> >> have to bring >> >> > battalions of police and encounter specialists with >> >> AK-56 and other >> >> > deadly looking guns (that I myself saw) in advance. >> >> And why is the >> >> > media called in even before the residents are told. Of >> >> course the >> >> > fact the this happens in the month of Ramzan, on a >> >> Friday, and near >> >> > a large mosque where people were going to gather in >> >> large numbers >> >> > later for prayers, sounds just too predictable and >> >> clichéd for >> >> > anyone's imagination. Some locals claim that the >> >> police had been >> >> > visiting this place (and that particular house) since >> >> last few >> >> > days, and the so-called terrorists and their weapons >> >> were probably >> >> > "planted" last night for this encounter. This >> >> claim would obviously >> >> > find no takers in the presently >> >> > created euphoria (did you see any channel showing a >> >> sound byte to >> >> > this affect?) I didn't find a single local resident >> >> who is not fed >> >> > up with this oft-repeated image of Jamia Nagar as >> >> harboring >> >> > terrorists. But none of the channels I saw aired the >> >> public angst >> >> > against their portrayal. >> >> > >> >> > To be honest, one shouldn't deny that the Batla >> >> House area has some >> >> > criminal and anti-social elements, just as Darya Ganj >> >> or Shahadra >> >> > or Govindpuri would have. But most local residents >> >> believe that for >> >> > Jamia to become a haven of such criminal elements, the >> >> local police >> >> > and land-mafia are equally responsible. Jamia area is >> >> one of the >> >> > rare localities of Delhi where the rule of law >> >> doesn't apply in >> >> > most spheres. The land mafia openly indulges in >> >> illegal >> >> > construction; no rules of traffic apply here, the >> >> condition of >> >> > civic amenities is abysmal. Illegal shops, factories >> >> (many with >> >> > child labour) and businesses operate here actively >> >> with police >> >> > connivance. The local politicians (MLA, councilors) >> >> are actually >> >> > part of the problem rather than the solution. There is >> >> a full-scale >> >> > illegal ISBT (bus stand) running in Batla House's >> >> backyard to bring >> >> > hundreds of migrants everyday from small towns of UP >> >> (you can see >> >> > the police openly accepting bribe from its >> >> > operators any day). >> >> > >> >> > There is no question of sealing whatever the heck >> >> business you may >> >> > run here, and most places stink with heaps of garbage >> >> everywhere. >> >> > There are no RWAs or citizen's initiatives to >> >> discuss the problems. >> >> > It is truly a manufactured ghetto of Delhi – why >> >> don't all these >> >> > problems happen in Lajpat Nagar or Kalkaji? I am >> >> positive that the >> >> > authorities are aware that criminals (or what they >> >> call terrorists) >> >> > exist here. But they deliberately allow them to thrive >> >> here – never >> >> > to be touched in the normal/peaceful times – keep >> >> them for the >> >> > right time. It is as if Batla House is a laboratory or >> >> breeding >> >> > ground where things are allowed to grow by providing >> >> all the >> >> > required ingredients and safety. The fruits are >> >> plucked only when >> >> > they are ripe (or required). So today, they simply >> >> came to gather >> >> > the fruit they had sown, and made a big exhibition of >> >> it by calling >> >> > the media. The local people, frightened that the next >> >> encounter may >> >> > happen in their house, simply >> >> > squirm and hide in their personal ghettos. >> >> > >> >> > In all this, a big responsibility lies with the media, >> >> and I am yet >> >> > to come across bold and honest reporters who are ready >> >> to go beyond >> >> > the obvious and investigate the truth – not simply >> >> repeat what is >> >> > told to them by the authorities or their channel >> >> bosses. >> >> > >> >> > Yousuf Saeed >> >> > September 19, 2008 >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > _________________________________________ >> >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the >> >> city. >> >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> >> > To subscribe: send an email to >> >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> >> > To unsubscribe: >> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> > List archive: >> >> >> >> >> >> Shuddhabrata Sengupta >> >> The Sarai Programme at CSDS >> >> Raqs Media Collective >> >> shuddha at sarai.net >> >> www.sarai.net >> >> www.raqsmediacollective.net >> >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________ >> >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> >> Critiques & Collaborations >> >> To subscribe: send an email to >> >> reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject >> >> header. >> >> To unsubscribe: >> >> https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> >> List archive: >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > _________________________________________ >> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> > Critiques & Collaborations >> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> > subscribe in the subject header. >> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> > List archive: >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://indersalim.livejournal.com >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with >> subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > ________________________________ > Voice your opinion on the burning issues of the day. Discuss, debate with > the world. Logon to message boards on MSN. Try it! -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From indersalim at gmail.com Sun Sep 21 00:56:54 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 00:56:54 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Trespassers in Kashmir? In-Reply-To: <6353c690809201207p3bdfe199hfc9cd82471cc1619@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690809201207p3bdfe199hfc9cd82471cc1619@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70809201226r258ec556j3475490160525ff1@mail.gmail.com> Dear Aditya let us read it again, what this sexy old man writes: "Every village in the Valley has its quota of unmarked graves. How > long can this be allowed to go on? Give the Valley azadi it wants. .... put an end to this sorry state of affairs." Yes, it is all sad that Indian militrary presence in Kashmir has produced graves and disappearances, how long this will go, so it is better, to give them the azadi, Roughly this is what Arundhati Roy too said... yes, i am not in favour of a kashmiri army at Lakah pur with guns in their hands..... the police in the present form is enough.... so, grant every kind of automony to them, this pain should comes to an immediate end. with love is On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 12:37 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Trespassers in Kashmir? > *Khushwant Singh > * > September 19, 2008 > > I have yet to hear a Kashmiri Muslim describe himself as Indian. It was, and > is to this day: "I am a Kashmiri." Perhaps among the exceptions are Sheikh > Abdullah, his son Farooq and grandson Omar. Right from 1947, whenever India > played cricket matches against Pakistan, Kashmiri Muslims supported > Pakistan. If you don't believe me, read Basharat Peer's Curfewed Night > (Random House). Don't dismiss this as a trivial aberration because it does > reveal the Kashmiri Muslim's mindset. Now it has been revealed for all to > see. > > They want us, Indians, out of the Valley. They may or may not throw in their > lot with chronically unstable Pakistan. But have the leaders demanding azadi > from India considered the consequences that may follow our getting out of > the Valley? The language they use to rouse the rabble indicates they > haven't. And that applies to leaders of all the separatist factions. > > The most serious consequences of *azadi* will be the exodus of non-Muslims — > Kashmiri Pandits and Sikhs — from the Valley. Don't accept their assurances > that it will not happen. It happened when Kashmiri Pandits left the Valley > in large numbers because they felt insecure. Mohammad Ali Jinnah and > Jawaharlal Nehru gave us similar assurances preceding the > Partition. > > If and when Hindus and Sikhs are pushed out of the Valley, right-wing Hindu > groups, extending from the RSS, the VHP, the Shiv Sena, the Bajrang Dal to > the BJP will press for the expulsion of Muslims from Jammu (where they are > in majority in two tehsils) and elsewhere. The Valley's only commercial > outlets and tourism is linked to India. There is not a hotel in the country > that does not have a shop selling Kashmiri handicrafts, carpets and shawls. > Thousands of Kashmiri Muslims work as labourers in Indian towns and cities. > Will not their future be jeopardised by the call for azadi? If there is the > slightest risk of starting mass migrations, we must reject it, come what > may. > > The situation has been going out of hand since 1990. Basharat Peer tells us > that ever since, thousands of Kashmiris have crossed over to Pakistan to get > military training and arms and sneaked back into the Valley to create mayhem > and murder. > > The locals give them shelter and food. > > The only response India could make was to send in more troops, impose severe > restraints on the locals and kill those they thought were anti-Indian > militants. Every village in the Valley has its quota of unmarked graves. How > long can this be allowed to go on? Give the Valley azadi it wants. But spell > it out to mean only internal autonomy to manage its affairs. No more. India > must retain its military presence to guard its frontiers against intruders. > But at all costs, put an end to this sorry state of affairs. > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Sun Sep 21 02:47:32 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 02:47:32 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised In-Reply-To: <6353c690809200637n797d44d3of4ca06c4586df0d7@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690809182021u4fb74001g9064d3fa5b8b2c6f@mail.gmail.com> <169ff67c0809190317o72d3ee9l3b502a73561d1372@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809190414g6ce8861eq441fa7d5d609bd32@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809191232u65c82564lee7992d112a4cb6@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809200209r45db4222y10920e7515bddb76@mail.gmail.com> <169ff67c0809200442r540cfd70l9518587f83a48990@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690809200637n797d44d3of4ca06c4586df0d7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0809201417l33d0c926y17bcb507d8e4413c@mail.gmail.com> I know. It is unfortunate isn't it? And youre right. I have run out of arguments. Making an argument presumes rational discussion. When someone is displaying nothing more than rank prejudice then no discussion or argument is possible. I am amazed that we can read the sort of poison that issues on a daily basis from radhika and continue to have him on this list. I would suggest you not give me pointers on etiquette and politness Aditya. All I have said is shut up. Not a terribly offensive or cutting statement. It is only asking the person concerned to desist from speaking. Certainly nothing in the region of the things you have been censored for on this list not so long ago. I am even more amazed that you can call yourself a secular person (which you insist on doing) and condone at the same time talk which is racist, misogynist hate speech. Before giving me platitudes it would do well to think hard about the kind of talk you condone and the views you hold. This is probably why no one takes you seriously on this list even though we all are sympatehtic to the Kashmiri pandit cause. Unfortunately it is done a great disservice by the likes of you. It is hard to have any sympathy with someone who parades his victimhood at every possible oppurtunity and yet is so vicious and hateful towards another community. It is disgusting. On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 7:07 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: > Its unfortunate whoever uses terms such as "Enough. Just. Shut. Up. Be. > Quiet." and still holds the right to be a member of this forum. If you run > out of arguments; you don't resort to such cheap behaviour. Its better you > take to learning; rather then proveing your best to be a so called > scholarly > jhollahwaalah. > > We are not here to read your "Pass-Time" debate. If you enjoy it; then > kindly take it offline. Grow Up...! > > Love > Aditya Raj Kaul > > On 9/20/08, Nazneen Anand Shamsi wrote: > > > > Dear Aarti, > > > > This is not with respect to this or that incident. I would like to make a > > general comment regarding, state and statecraft. Please tell me what is > > wrong in devising categories to mark a population in order to rule them? > > What is the great moral dilemma in bumping off few of them here to keeep > > the > > official fiction alive? Many of our friends take a position or a point of > > view on the reader list because perhaps they are in a position of > privilege > > to do so? So by producing a list a dissenters and hence personalizing > > discourse on dissent, a Shuddhabrata, can very easily make a poignant > > emotional appeal, but tell me, do you believe that, a nation or any > nation > > can merely run on such emotional exercises rooted in deliberation alone. > > Apropos angst about 'media circus'. Tell me Aarti, what was a Ramayana or > a > > Mahabharata or a Karbala is if not like a great 'media circus' of an epic > > scale. Such imagery, such poetry, such fine use of metaphors. So much so > > that every time I read these texts I am overwhelmed with the sheer > > exquisiteness of language and craft. Or for instance what was Vietnam war > > if > > not a great 'media circus' which swung the other way after an image of > > wailing Paris was published on 8th June 1972. The point being, I think > > 'media circus' is a neccesary condition for state and statehood. The > state > > as we know and recognise and critque now, grew out of anarchy. It may not > > have been 'a state of nature' in the strictest of Lockean sense but > > nevertheless, I think, it need its 'circuses' to give us, a sense of > > identity, a sense of involvement and a sense of purpose. Howsoever > > fractured > > or precarious it may be. > > > > Regards > > > > Nazo > > > > > > > > On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 10:09 AM, Aarti Sethi > > wrote: > > > > > Dear Lalit, > > > > > > I have never questioned yours or anyone else's attachment to Kashmir or > > > said > > > it was invalid. I am sure you feel a great deal for what you have left > > > behind and I respect that, as I am sure does everyone else on this > list. > > > The > > > fact that you are unable to live there must cause you tremendous sorrow > > and > > > it is a terrible tragedy. I was making a point about the sort of > > attachment > > > it is possible for me to have, which is of an entirely different order. > > > > > > Having said that, I'm not sure how you are making the rest of the > > > connections in your response. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It wasn't the case of 'no evidence' but 'insufficient evidence' & we > > all > > > > respect the judicial verdict- 'released' even though on 'technical > > > grounds' > > > > only. > > > > > > > > > > I am not sure what the scare quotes are meant to achieve. Scare quotes > > are > > > normally used to qualify, or question, the validity of a word or > phrase. > > So > > > 'released' makes no sense, because he was in fact acquitted. There is > no > > > room for doubt about this. Again I am unable to understand what 'even > > > though > > > on technical grounds only' is supposed to mean. There are no OTHER > > grounds > > > on which acquittals are made. People are only ever acquitted on > technical > > > grounds. Evidence is a technicality of the judicial process. When there > > is > > > no evidence linking someone to an event, then they are acquitted. I am > > > unable to understand what you find so confusing about this. Its really > > > quite > > > simple in this case. > > > > > > I do not suppose we can ever imagine what a nightmare SAR Geelani must > > have > > > gone through. But I think we should be a little more respectful of > things > > > we > > > are lucky we have not had occasion to experience. > > > > > > best > > > Aarti > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > > > Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 01:02:06 +0530 > > > > From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com > > > > To: lalitambardar at hotmail.com > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised > > > > CC: radhikarajen at vsnl.net; reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Lalit, > > > > > > > > Yes he was released on "technical" grounds. The "technical" grounds > > that > > > > the law acquits people on, namely on the utter lack of any evidence > > > linking > > > > him to the parliament attack. I know the fact that someone is > innocent > > is > > > a > > > > flimsy excuse in your book because it would be much better to hang > him > > > > nonetheless and "salve the conscience of the nation", however you > will > > be > > > > surprised to know that evidence of culpability is actually pretty > > central > > > to > > > > the judicial process. Unfortunately, it is not simply enough for you > to > > > > believe that Geelani was behind the attack, it has to be proved. It > has > > > not > > > > been proved. There is no evidence at all. > > > > > > > > I have said this before on this list, and I am saying it again - > > terror, > > > > whether by agents acting against the state and terror by the state > are > > > > mirrors of each other. Monstrous shadows that seemingly confront each > > > other > > > > in a relationship of tense alterity. And who is to say which is which > > and > > > > who is whom? > > > > > > > > In the times in which we live we will be asked again and again to > > suspend > > > > our sense of justice, of ethical responsibility in the name of > national > > > > security, of fighting terror. To justify everything - fake > encounters, > > > > arrest without warrants, torture, detention on suspicion, rape - so > > that > > > we > > > > may all be safe. Safe from what? We are producing the ghosts that > haunt > > > us. > > > > > > > > best > > > > Aarti > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 6:45 PM, Lalit Ambardar < > > > lalitambardar at hotmail.com > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > By the way, this 'guy' was released on 'technical grounds' only. > Even > > > one > > > > of that 'celebrity' senior most criminal lawyers could not get him > > > relieved > > > > of this tag. And yet, he continues with his diatribe against India. > > > > > > > > And for these 'mobile citizens' they appear to be a confused lot. > Here, > > > > they espouse the cause of the pan Islamism driven secessionism in > > > Kashmir & > > > > lo, there they raise an issue on the relationship between the 'land' > & > > > 'the > > > > nation'. They have no quarrel with those who thump the 'very land' in > > > > kashmir with their heals ranting 'ragda'....'ragda' implying 'crush > > > India'. > > > > How ironic . Those who do not want to be part of this nation are > > welcome > > > to > > > > opt for the 'land of the pure' & it quite fits in to the mobile > > > citizens' > > > > theory- you could still love the land (even if one ignores that > > > > stupid 'ragda'....'ragda' thumping....???... ) yet need not posses > it. > > > > Regards all > > > > LA > > > > p s : Opposite of 'nation state' can only be 'anarchy' & 'anarchy' > can > > > > only lead to 'mayhem' that is so visible in > > > > Kashmir since 1989-90. > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 16:45:02 +0500 > > > > > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > > > > To: aarti.sethi at gmail.com > > > > > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised > > > > > > > > > > Aarti, > > > > > > > > > > we seem to have carried forward of the concept of freedom and > rights > > > too > > > > far without realising to be free, we have some responsibility also to > > the > > > > nation and society that has bestowed upon us the freedom and rights. > in > > > fact > > > > the rights have the other side of the coin, that is duties. Without > > > duties > > > > to the society, exercising only rights is like license to behave as > any > > > > individual wants, a license to tamper the rights of others in > society, > > it > > > is > > > > license to be irrelevant in a society which has given rights to > > > individuals > > > > to be free. > > > > > > > > > > A Roy, after winning a booker prize and some dollars can not be > > > > exercising her rights without the responsibilty to the society in > which > > > she > > > > lives. If she declares herself as walking and talking republic then > she > > > has > > > > every right to say so, but her safety then, solely on her, not on the > > > > republic of India as she misbehaves in the society that she lives in > > > > > > > > > > A Geelani when he invokes his right of feee expression, and as > > activist > > > > of human rights, he has to be aware of all humans in society when he > > > > supports the terror in jamia nagar. When he stores the ground floor > > plan > > > of > > > > parliament, he has to be aware that, he is neither an architect nor a > > > civil > > > > engineer and his act can help his terrorist friends. A court may > acquit > > > him > > > > of the charges, but citizens look at him with certain apprehension, > > > because > > > > what business he has not to inform of the terror activities that go > on > > in > > > > his neighbourhood. ? Every citizen is police without uniform for the > > > > society, every police is citizen with uniform. When ghettos of > muslims > > > > sheltor, defend the terror accused, the citizens of the nation feel > > sorry > > > > for ntire community and look with disdain. > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: Aarti Sethi > > > > > Date: Friday, September 19, 2008 4:45 pm > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised > > > > > To: Nazneen Anand Shamsi , sarai list < > > > > reader-list at sarai.net> > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Nazneen, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have no quarrel with love for land at all. And read my post > > > > > > again. I used > > > > > > a specific phrase, I said, 'territorial lust for land'. Can you > > > > > > love land > > > > > > without possessing it? That is the question. > > > > > > > > > > > > How exactly do you build a relationship with land with which you > > > > > > have no > > > > > > personal history of settlement or usage? Now obviously this is > > > > > > both an > > > > > > abstract and a concrete question. I have never been to Kashmir, > > > > > > does this > > > > > > mean I cannot have any relationship to it? Of course not! The > > > > > > question is > > > > > > what kind of relationship? When I was one year old my father went > > > > > > on a > > > > > > voyage to Antarctica. One of my most favourite memories of > > > > > > childhood is > > > > > > seeing the slides he brought back of the incredible snowscapes > and > > > ice > > > > > > sheets, and a rock which lay in a corner of our house for many > > years. > > > > > > Apparently it was part of a meteor which smashed into the earth > > > > > > some million > > > > > > years ago. Antarctica is part of no country. Its land is part of > > > > > > the common > > > > > > heritage of humanity, for all to build relationships with. As far > > > > > > as I am > > > > > > concerned this is the only productive, ethical and creative way > to > > > > > > think of > > > > > > land. > > > > > > > > > > > > The trouble is being an Indian citizen gives me fictional > > > > > > 'ownership' over > > > > > > the entire territory of India. As if I have some special > > > > > > entitlement to the > > > > > > square miles that are part of the map. But which land, whose land > > > > > > and whose > > > > > > love? Currently there are struggles going on in this country - in > > > > > > singur, in > > > > > > nandigram, in niyamgiri, to name only three sites - where people > > > > > > are asking > > > > > > this question. Communities it seems have no right to their own > > > > > > land in the > > > > > > name of "development". And this is fine by your logic is it not? > > > > > > Because the > > > > > > development of India means that everyone has an entitlement. All > > > > > > land is the > > > > > > property of the state. When did this come to pass? Can we ask > these > > > > > > questions? Or immediately "pills" must be taken to stamp out > these > > > > > > viruses?Maybe your love for India entitles you to such a claim, I > > > > > > do not feel this > > > > > > entitlement. And in my opinion this sort of entitlement is where > > > > > > violence is > > > > > > born. Can you see the quagmire we are in when we begin to > collapse > > > > > > lovefor/of land and territorial entitlement? They are not the > same > > > > > > thing. > > > > > > What does cheering for the Indian cricket team have to do with > the > > > > > > area per > > > > > > square miles of India? Believe me, I am not being facetious at > > > > > > all. The only > > > > > > reason this sounds idiotic is because we take for granted the > > > > > > logic of the > > > > > > modern nation state which consists of a sovereign entity for a > > > > > > territorialunit, with a standing army to defend this territory. > > > > > > This is the first > > > > > > lesson in every graduate political science lecture. And you are > > > > > > right, the > > > > > > nation state is a fragile concept. So maybe we need to ask > > > > > > ourselves whether > > > > > > this is not causing more trouble than it is worth... > > > > > > > > > > > > Regarding archives and fiction, this is a longer discussion and > > > > > > tangentialto the point I was making. Of course we may discuss it > > > > > > if you wish. But just > > > > > > to clarify what I was saying, I can claim the heritage of the > > > > > > whole world as > > > > > > my own. There is an old humanist saying "the world is my home" > and > > > > > > i think > > > > > > there is something of tremendous value here. But there are > several > > > > > > ways in > > > > > > which history and heritage can be claimed. One way seems to be > > > > > > logic of > > > > > > subsuming everything, all forms of life and love and affection > > > > > > into the > > > > > > rubric of the nation and to stamp out violently any persons or > > > > > > forms of life > > > > > > which fall out of this. I am afraid this is too violent and > boring > > > > > > for me. > > > > > > > > > > > > regards > > > > > > Aarti > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 3:47 PM, Nazneen Anand Shamsi < > > > > > > nazoshmasi at googlemail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Aarti, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please explain how many years constitute a civilization? For > > > > > > that matter, > > > > > > > please elucidate the relationship between temporal continuity > > > > > > and a concept, > > > > > > > if any? Why should 'pride in being Indian' exclude love for > > > > > > land? As far as > > > > > > > history books are concerned, I would ask, who is to decide > which > > > > > > fiction of > > > > > > > the archives is valid? Nation state is a fragile concept, and > > > > > > whats wrong > > > > > > > in subduing those who make it more vulnerable? To not to do so > > > > > > is I think > > > > > > > not allow one to take a pill if one is afflicted by a minor > > > > > > virus and hope > > > > > > > that the body will cope on its own...it is ridiculous isn't it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nazo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 9:39 AM, Aarti Sethi > > > > > > wrote:> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > The signatories assert that "Kashmir is an inalienable > > > > > > element of > > > > > > >> India's > > > > > > >> > civilisational identity and symbolises the fundamental > > > > > > principles on > > > > > > >> which > > > > > > >> > the modern Indian state has been built." Terming national > > > > > > will as a > > > > > > >> > critical > > > > > > >> > component of state power, they felt that "devious > > > > > > adversaries" have > > > > > > >> > resorted > > > > > > >> > to psychological warfare in order to break the national > will. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> What is India's 'civilizational identity'? Does 60 years > > > > > > constitute a > > > > > > >> 'civilization'? The point is, that to even raise this question > > is > > > > > > >> "sedition". As if those who ask this question are somehow > naive > > > > > > deluded>> juvile people. Does 'pride in being Indian', whatever > > > > > > that is, have to be > > > > > > >> coupled with a territorial lust for land? I don't think so. > Our > > > > > > >> imaginations > > > > > > >> and affections surely encompass more than the nation. And in > > > > > > fact they do, > > > > > > >> that is my point. Read any history book taught in school. We > > > > > > are so > > > > > > >> willing > > > > > > >> so claim 2,000 years of history as 'Indian history', but that > > > > > > history>> becomes 'Indian history' only 60 years ago. The march > of > > > > > > history does not > > > > > > >> cut some straight and true swath from Ashoka to Nehru, as if > > > > > > 2,000 years > > > > > > >> of > > > > > > >> history is the long unfolding of the story of the 'Indian > > > > > > nation'. Why is > > > > > > >> this so scary to concieve is what I don't understand. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> Nations are not god-given entities. They are historically > > > > > > produced units > > > > > > >> of > > > > > > >> social organisation. Which is not to say they are of no value > > > > > > or that they > > > > > > >> have never played a progressive role. Or that we must have no > > > > > > investment>> in > > > > > > >> them. But its alright to question and query the nation. There > > > > > > is nothing > > > > > > >> divine about it. Its not 'immoral'. People who are asking > these > > > > > > questions>> are not 'bad people', 'enemies of India'. > > > > > > >> People who are asking today questions about Kashmir's future > > > > > > and its > > > > > > >> relationship with India are asking us to think deeply and hard > > > > > > about how > > > > > > >> India defines her/its identity. This is a good question, it > > > > > > would help us > > > > > > >> all to spend some time on it. It is possible to think > > > > > > creatively at this > > > > > > >> moment about the very many ways in which Kashmir can relate to > > > > > > India.>> There > > > > > > >> has been some discussion of those ways on this list itself. > > > > > > Various kinds > > > > > > >> of > > > > > > >> autonomy arrangements, of porous borders, many things can be > > > > > > thought>> through. But to deign all such conversations as > > > > > > "seditious" is no way to > > > > > > >> go > > > > > > >> anywhere. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> best > > > > > > >> A > > > > > > >> _________________________________________ > > > > > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > >> To subscribe: send an email to > reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > >> To unsubscribe: > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > >> List archive: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > > > > list > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Hottest news and in-depth analysis that goes beyond the headlines. > Only > > > on > > > > MSN News Check it out! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Get the latest buzz on outsourcing. Up to date information on > mergers, > > > > acquisitions and deals on BPO Watch. Try it now!< > > > http://www.bpowatchindia.com/default.asp> > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> > From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Sun Sep 21 04:49:46 2008 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 16:19:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] What More Can We Do?! Message-ID: <939123.99730.qm@web53601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> http://doubtengine.blogspot.com/2008/09/what-more-can-we-do.html What More Can We Do?! I'm feeling a bit emotional at the moment as I write this. I'm extremely saddened and repulsed by some experiences I've had in the past week. I have tried to believe otherwise. I have tried to stick up for India's secular credentials. But today, I've lost that spirit. India's increasingly becoming a society of Islamophobes. Yes, Racists and Islamophobes. Rabid Muslim haters who can't even begin to assume that there's no difference - anatomically, mentally, physically or personality wise between them and their counterparts from a different faith. Did I say 'different faith'? I'm sorry. I meant Muslims. I shall pull no punches today. It's fashionable now to 'treat Muslims with the contempt they deserve'. It's fashionable to appear 'intelligent' and quote some obscure verse from the Qur'an to 'prove' that Islam 'supports terrorism'. Yes, it is fashionable in India to be Islamophobic. Blame the Muslims for everything. When there's an intelligence failure, it's the Muslims. When there's a bomb blast, it's 'Islamic terrorism'. When there are social problems like poverty and illiteracy among a section of the population - there's no attempt or discussion on HOW to improve it. No. It's easier to blame Islam. They're uneducated Muslims. Let them be. Fashionable. There are two kinds of illiteracy in India. Illiteracy, and Muslim illiteracy. There are two kinds of poverty in India. Poverty, and Muslim poverty. India's criminals are now branched into two. Criminals, and Muslim criminals. Terrorists are a Muslim copyright. No amount of Bajrang Dal bombs can make them terrorists.. (No! Labeling them would amount to 'pseudosecularism' and being 'anti-Hindu'.) No amount of VHP violence on Christian minorities can make THEM terrorists. No amount of fiery speeches or communal riots or intimidation or racism can get them banned. They're not terrorists.. they're the mainstream. Terrorists are those with an Arabic name. Only Muslims are terrorists. There are two kinds of shop-keepers. Shopkeepers, and MUSLIM shopkeepers. There are two kinds of auto-drivers. Auto drivers, and MUSLIM autodrivers. There are two kinds of landlords - Landlords, and MUSLIM landlords. There are two kinds of tenants - Tenants, and MUSLIM tenants. There are two kinds of Indians - Indians, and MUSLIMS. If you deny thinking along these lines, you're lying. And if you accept that you think along those lines - you're exactly what I'm trying to say you are. An Islamophobe. Why does my following a faith of my choice make it seem like I have boil on my forehead that people can't avoid mentioning it?! Is it because my name sounds different from yours? Why must I apologize for having an Arabic name?! Don't almost ALL hindus have Sanskrit names? Don't almost ALL Christians have Latin/English names? Fuck you, if you think Muslims are devoted to some other country for having an Arabic name. Really, Fuck you. These SELF IMPORTANT racist custodians of 'INDIAN CULTURE', in all their bigoted supremacy point out how Indian Muslim's hearts bleed for the Palestinians.. So FUCKING WHAT?! Don't the general INDIAN HINDU POPULATION not lend their voice when Malaysian Hindus protest against their government?! What the fuck is THAT all about?! And Palestine isn't even a religious issue as much as a political problem. If someone so much as bothers to mention that he's an Indian AND a Muslim - it actually becomes a issue of discussion that gives the word 'petty' a whole new meaning. PETTINESS doesn't begin to describe it! They nit-pick on every fucking' syllable of his, trying to find out hidden motives, an anti-national agenda.. and look for signs that he 'doesn't really mean it'. Have you EVER paused to wonder why an LK Advani can be a HINDU as well as Indian. Why a Tata can be a PARSI as well as an Indian. Why a George Fernandes can be a CHRISTIAN as well as an Indian. AND WHY the hell NOT can Omar be a Muslim as well as an Indian?! But all a Muslim needs to do is to look for a house to live in- and he's got to prove that HE'S NOT A TERRORIST. Is it written on our faces?! Guilty until proven innocent?! Everyday Indians ARE becoming - or they've already become - anti-Muslim. I've tried hiding from it, partly due to my attachment to India, and partly from a hope that the damage done by blatantly communal parties (which for some amusing reason finds fault with 'pseudo-secular' parties) can be reversed. I'm sorry, it probably can't. The rot is too deep. Islamophobia has become Institutionalized - part of daily lives and dinner table conversations. It's not just the rabid Modi who's talking about sending Muslims 'back to Pakistan' or wherever the hell 'THEY' came from. The supporters of the Modis and Togadias of the world can go around saying 'Islam is foreign' 'Islam is alien' 'Muslims are invaders' 'Not Indian culture'... SHOVE IT UP YOUR ASSES! Muslims of India DO NOT follow Hindu culture or religion - SO FUCKING WHAT?! The Muslims in India have THEIR OWN CULTURE developed IN India - and I don't call cultures that develop in India as Vietnamese. They're an Indian culture, right down to the fucking Biriyani. But these mundane details don't matter to the Indian racists and Islamophobes. Like I said EVERYONE - Doctors, Engineers, Professionals, Students, Housewifes and the supposedly urban metro-dwellers. They're all at it, and are completely oblivious to the gravity of it. It's 'normal' to hate a Muslim you don't even know. It's cool to view a respected intellectual like Javed Akhtar with skepticism (He's a fucking Muslim, after all), and it's cool to let a virile Togadia (a compassionate guardian of the the sanathana dharma) continue his racist diatribes. If there's one thing I can't stand anymore, it's THIS QUESTION: Why doesn't the average/educated/liberal Muslim speak up against terrorism? To that I have this to say. SHUT THE FUCK UP. Just do a tiny google search and see the number of NGOs and organizations that have come up to promote awareness of Muslims (in a country that apparently has the second largest Muslim population in the world!) and the work and resources put in - BY MUSLIMS - to promote secularism and enlightenment IN THEIR OWN RANKS. The average educated liberal blasted Muslim individual has gone hoarse speaking up against terrorism and trying to defend himself against racism. Yes. Thousands and thousands of Muslim individuals speak up - and HAVE TO speak up - just to have a normal daily routine. They can speak up, they can cry hoarse, they can SCREAM FROM THEIR GODDAMN ROOFTOPS - but you still won't hear it. WHY? BECAUSE YOU'RE ISLAMOPHOBIC! You only hear the Al Zarqawis and the Mullah Omars of the world.. because that's what you're conditioned to LISTEN to.. your NARROW MINDS won't - and cannot - accept anything else. Fuck the liberals. EVEN CONSERVATIVES - in their thousands - have marched and rallied FOR PEACE and AGAINST TERRORISM, holding banners in the sun and marching for miles. Did anyone hear them?! Here's a picture I stole from The Hindu of an anti-terrorism rally by conservative Muslims in India. Can you even fucking count how many there are? NO? So SHUT YOUR GODDAMN MOUTHS before trying to appear self-righteous and look down upon all those citizens. You're calling THEM anti-nationals? Those thousands of citizens who took the pains to organize a protest against anti-nationals?! FUCK YOU!! The liberals and conservatives of the Muslims have all spoken and rallied against terrorism. What have YOU DONE to PROTEST AGAINST TERRORISM except go on some random Internet forum and give went to your frustrations by blaming it all on 'THEM' and "MUSLIMS" and talk of 'SENDING THEM BACK TO PAKISTAN"?!! Fucking Hypocrites. The Muslims speak up all the time - even when they don't really have to. They HAVE to speak up to avoid the dirty glares everytime there's a bomb blast - as if they're somehow guilty of it. They HAVE TO speak up and defend themselves everyday just to not 'arouse suspicion' (fat chance!). Muslims in this country are living their whole lives in a defendant's table or a witness box. The interrogation never ceases. The stereotypes won't fucking budge. It's cool to bemoan the fact that Indian Muslims haven't 'moved on with the times'. The Indian movie industry is practically dominated by Muslims - and yet Muslims are supposedly 'anti-movie' and 'against music'. An AR Rehman can make an entire billion strong population sing to his rendition of 'Vande Mataram'.. and yet, Muslims are ' averse' to patriotic songs. A practising Muslim like Sania Mirza can play tennis in a skirt - but it's those who're protesting against it who get the 'Muslim' tag. The same cannot be said for a Khushboo or others who face the same problem. NOoooooooooo.. they're not Hindu fundamentalist.. they're the 'moral brigade'. There are two kinds of moral brigades. Moral Brigade, and MUSLIM fundamentalists. If someone has to MOVE ON WITH THE TIMES, its the fucking Shiv Sena and VHP. This is the 21st goddamn century.. the whole world's mixing. Hitler's gone, the world of ONE dominant race is a pipe dream.. why the hell are they still clinging onto 'Maharastra for Marathis' and 'India for Hindus' kind of medieval crap?! You fucking complain about 'how easily Muslims are offended' and point out cases of Salman Rushdie and Taslima Nasreen... WHERE THE FUCK ARE YOUR GODDAMN SENSES when the country's most celebrated artist - at the ripe old age of 90 - is forced to go into exile?! WHY THE FUCK DID YOU GET OFFENDED?! What was all the commotion when a saffron LK Advani called a secular atheist - Jinnah - 'secular'??! WHAT GOT the ants itching in your pants then?! WHY does a proposal to build a canal GET YOU SO OFFENDED?! Why doesn't the Valentine's Day hunters get called 'Hindu fundamentalists' who GOT OFFENDED? Nooooo.. they're just nationalists, and 'moral brigade' and some other fancy term to avoid giving them a religious tag. But not so for the fucking MUSLIMS. That's all they are! Danish cartoons are ok.. a nude art work is NOT?! WHOSE RELIGIOUS SENSIBILITIES GOT OFFENDED?! Hypocrite bastards. Then there's the sick rants about how 'Muslim leaders' do not condemn terrorism. To that, I have this to say: SHUT THE FUCK UP, IF YOU'RE TOO IGNORANT TO SPEAK! The ultra-conservative Darul Uloom Deoband - one of the WORLD'S MOST INFLUENTIAL seminaries, has issued a fatwa against terrorism in 2008. The US Muslims Religious Council has issued a fatwa against terrorism. The Saudi religious leaders have issued a fatwa against terrorism ( and way back in in 2004 too- if that gets some sand out of your collective vaginas.) JUST HOW MANY MORE FATWAS DO YOU WANT?! Want to know what the fatwas said?! Islam strictly condemns religious extremism and the use of violence against innocent lives. There is no justification in Islam for extremism or terrorism. Targeting civilians’ life and property through suicide bombings or any other method of attack is haram – or forbidden - and those who commit these barbaric acts are criminals, not “martyrs" You want it spelled out MORE CLEARLY THAN THAT?! What MORE DO YOU WANT? What more CAN WE DO? What about those 'violent calls to jehad' in the Qur'an, you ask? Go read your Old Testament and your Manu Smriti and your Torah.. and then come back and make allegations that war is not violent and that there isn't any quotable 'violent' and 'sexist' quotes in all those books. SHUT UP!! It's not really 'fashionable' to quote from the Qur'an unless there's something 'violent' about them. But then here goes.. The Qur’an, Islam’s revealed text, states: "Whoever kills a person unjustly…it is as though he has killed all mankind. And whoever saves a life, it is as though he had saved all mankind." (Qur’an, 5:32) NO.. but you have the urge to dismiss this, dont' you? That inexplicable feeling that there's a catch? Well there's none. That's what the Qur'an says. ANd here's what the prophet says: "Do not be people without minds of your own, saying that if others treat you well you will treat them well, and that if they do wrong you will do wrong to them. Instead, accustom yourselves to do good if people do good and not to do wrong (even) if they do evil." (Al-Tirmidhi) Did you read that? But you don't hear that often do you?! Nah.. fuck you. “All creation is the family of God, and the person most beloved by God (is the one) who is kind and caring toward His family." POINT NUMBER ONE of the US fatwa against terrorism states (and it can't get clearer than this) 1.All acts of terrorism targeting civilians are haram (forbidden) in Islam. What more do you want?! The Muslims - liberals, conservatives, Indians, non-Indians, rich, poor and vulgar have ALL spoken out against terrorism and racism in the loudest possible voices. They have ALL quoted from the Qur'an, issued fatwas, defied stereotypes, and just tried to get on with their lives - which includes getting an education, trying to get a job, provide for a family, get a house, earn an income, and just LIVE NORMALLY like every other goddamn citizen out there. But the Muslim in India has to face the challenge of being a Muslim at each stage. It's sad. It's sickening. It's revolting. But it's true. India IS becoming/HAS become an Islamophobe nation. THE LEAST you can do to get rid of this crippling racism and dangerous Islamophobia.. is to JUST SHUT UP, or open your eyes to the truth that YOU DON'T WANT TO SEE. JUST BOTHER TO VERIFY YOUR FACTS before you go hoarse screaming 'Islam!'. DO SOME INSTROSPECTION and find out how much your own shit stinks, before pointing fingers at others. If Muslims in India are conservative.. so is every other fucking Indian. If they get offended, so does everyone else. If they have their own culture.. so does the rest of India's communities. If they have their own dress codes and languages.. so the the rest of the communities. If Muslims face poverty and backwardness.. so do millions of other Indians. Diseases, poverty, illiteracy, unemployment etc. do not affect a Muslim any differently than any other Indian community. It's true that Muslims in India are backward as a general rule.. but isn't that because the entire elite and middle class moved to Pakistan during partition? What percentage of the lower section of Indian society actually has a better track record in education and other parameters?! None. It's upto YOU to uplift these masses - as any good Indian should do - instead of alienating and blaming it on 'them'. India's Muslims and Hindus and Christians are ONE. INdians. They're an interwoven web.. and anything that effects any strand of the web, affects all. Unless that fact enters your tiny, racist heads - this country is doomed to continue in the same vein. It's sad that an outsider, who loves this country suddenly has change his opinion like this and feels the need to JUST LEAVE these sick, demented and racist people. I'm sorry, but India has let me down terribly. ~ [I have since calmed down enough to realize that I've made an embarrassing amount of spellings and grammar mistakes. My frustration has also resulted in an unacceptable amount of cuss words. I apologize. However, to edit them now seems an injustice to my state of mind at the time of writing. The hurt lingers.] From rahul_capri at yahoo.com Sun Sep 21 04:57:19 2008 From: rahul_capri at yahoo.com (Rahul Asthana) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 16:27:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] Terrorism & Bomb Blasts in India: Hindus, Muslims, Communalism and other issues Message-ID: <222803.5056.qm@web53601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> http://www.anindianmuslim.com/ It's tough to write a post after any terror strike as it has become a regular occurrence in this country and clearly we [India] are the worst victims of terrorism in the world. Which country has faced so many serial blasts in most of its big cities in just a matter of few years? Having said this we must realise that those who die in blasts are human beings, who belong to various faiths. If Hari Chand died in the recent blasts and Laxmi Kant is battling for life, there was Qasim also who died in the Delhi bomb blasts and Mohammad Farooq is in hospital. Terror has no religion and those who kill innocents are doing the most despicable act. Whether there are blasts in Mumbai, Ahmedabad and Jaipur or in Muslim congregations in Ajmer, Hyderabad and Malegaon, it is the ordinary Indians, the breadwinners for their families who have died. Unfortunately this also gets communalised at times. It is the biggest task for Indian police and security agencies to track down the killers. If everytime they catch the real SIMI operatives, how come they don't prevent the next attack. And strangely after every terror strike, the very next day the police comes out with a couple of new names. Suddenly, portraits are out and shown on channels. If they were not aware about the strikes, how they suddenly get sure about these new masterminds? Gujarat police had recently claimed that they had caught the accused and busted the entire SIMI core group that was responsible for all major terror strikes in India recently. So how come Delhi was targeted? In newspapers' columns and at websites & blogs, an unusual psyhological pressure is being put on Muslims to come out and condemn, as if they are involved in this. Muslims do condemn a lot but they don't have the PR expertise to do it. They keep holding programmes, dharnas and staging protests but they don't get reported. Shall the go and drag reporters to the mosque and make them watch what is said in 'duaa' after the Namaaz, to show it on TV. The fascist BJP says that it is appeasement that is responsible for this situation. This is a cunning way to portray the Muslim community as sympathisers of terror and ensure polarisation for its electoral benefit. It is a criminal act to say that due to Muslim vote, the police are unable to act on SIMI. Do they mean that Muslims don't want terrorists to be arrested. Even in countries that don't have Muslim population living for more than a century, a main politican party can't speak in such irresponsible manner. The police do go wherever they wish, catch anybody and arrest them. Who stops the police? In cases of terrorism, the suspects don't even get bail easily and police have ample time to interrogate. Now even the lawyers refuse to fight for any terror suspect even before trial. Still, if they are unable to arrest the culprits, its their failure. In fact, it is the Muslims who are most affected by such terror strikes and wish the most that these terrorists get arrested. Muslims would be the happiest if the real perpetrators are brought to book at the earliest. After every blast, it is Muslim who face further problems at the workplace and has trouble in finding a house on rent. The poor Muslims have the toughest time in getting employment. The Indian Muslim faces himself in a strange situation. He wants to know who is causing these blasts and prays to God that these terror strikes should stop and the perpetrators be sent to prison for their lifetime. It is ironical that several News channels lose all sense of propriety. One-sided reports that are often manufactured with the tacit leakage (or planting) of certain officials are beamed. News of Muslims donating blood at Delhi hospital doesn't get adequate coverage. However, there are stories about how politicians have been soft on SIMI because of higher Muslim percentage in UP. All our life we have seen the same thing. I need not remind you that until recently we had our leaders and senior journalists making claims that no Indian was involved in terrorism and that Indian Muslims were not affected by this phenomenon. Still, there was the similar psychological onus on Indian Muslims to 'come clean'. Muslims were then also the target and branded as the 'appeased lot'. It was not terrorism then rather it used to be MF Husain painting nude goddess, singing of Vande Mataram or any other such issue for which Muslims were asked to come out and prover their patriotism by condemnation and other means. When there were no such issues, suddenly there was so much consciousness about medieval history that everybody had begun to appear an expert on past. The fundamentals were then up in arms against Muslim for 'atrocities' committed by Babar and Aurangzeb. The Babri Masjid was ultimately razed. But much before that there was the charge of Muslims being 'pro-Pakistani'. The grouse was that Muslims favoured Pakistani cricket team. That they were fifth columnists. I mean, if it is not terrorism, it can be any other thing for which Muslims would be put in the dock and hounded. It can be 'madarsas' or 'producing more kids' ... There were then editorial page articles on 'Need for liberal Muslim to speak'. The Darul Uloom Deoband that produced tens of thousands of freedom fighters for this country, but it recently held anti-terrorism conference. And not once, it held it across the country. But still you are asked to speak up. For the last two days I have been receiving abusive emails from people whom I don't know and the messages on my blog that are filled with hate for Muslims. I get such messages all the time and that's the reason I have moderated the comments posts. Every couple of months I have to write such a post and then a new guy comes to the blog and posts kiddish questions or accuses all Muslims of bad things and I am expected to come clear. To whom and for what? Indian Muslims have no guilt but are made to believe that it is all their fault. Even in case of the Nuclear-deal, there was a hullabaloo that Indian Muslims were opposed to it. Then also I wrote a post that ordinary Muslims are with the national interest. Even Muslim leaders said that. Indian Muslims don't have a Muslim leadership that can organise mass protests and candle light vigils for the consumption of someone's eye. Indian Muslims don't have Muslim networks or organisations and they have full faith in Hindu leaders of various parties. During the recent shrine board controversy, it was said that Muslims don't speak up and I posted a photo on this blog. Do we all need to get cassettes and set up loudspeakers on top of our houses, blaring the same things daily? Communalising terror is the worst thing. Unfortunately the media and politicians are responsible for that to a large extent, as RSS has permeated every section of society. Muslims are as much victims of terrorism as anybody. Perhaps more. So the need is for government and agencies to act and let's educated people retaliate wherever there are attempts to disrupt harmony, rather than blaming each other all the time. If someone has to answer for this bloodbath, it has to be the police, the highly-paid officials of Indian security agenies, the ministers who get fat salaries apart from all sorts of allowances. It is surely not the 150 million Muslims of India. Terror is a common enemy for all of us. There is another post on the same subject. Yaamyn has summed it up well. It is also an emotional outburst. Read it. From prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com Sun Sep 21 09:43:23 2008 From: prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com (Prabhakar Singh) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 21:13:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] When cowards run the State, the nation bleeds Message-ID: <930740.16662.qm@web31506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Inder, This is where genius intellectuals like you fail when they try to confuse the issue and try to take sides cleverly.Issue is terrorism not secularism.To please you let us ban a small Bajrang Dal first and make all Islamic terrorists operating under different names and banners free to operate anywhere in the name of equality,secularism,minority,backwardness,vote-bank etc. who have shaken the entire world by their activities.  Regards, Prabhakar ----- Original Message ---- From: inder salim To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Sunday, 21 September, 2008 12:25:30 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] When cowards run the State, the nation bleeds dear aditya, just want to know what is your reaction to Paswan's demand to ban Bajrang Dal? i think he should have demanded this a decade earlier, when we demand a ban on Simi we should automatically ban BajrangDal and VHP ? and if not , just tell me why, if the  Govt. fails to ban BajragDal, they are truly cowards, this is to restore some basic components of secularism in india. love is On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 12:15 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote: >  When cowards run the State, the nation bleeds > > *Tarun Vijay | *September 17, 2008 > > http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/sep/17tarun.htm > > Again the same old stories, the same threats and same resolve of politicos, > like wet, squeezed paper. We told you so, at that date and time, but you > didn't listen. We asked for a stringent law. Our intelligence department was > warned, yet no one acted. > > It's a plot to derail the peace process with Pakistan, we shall never get > trapped but continue our *mohabbat*. They are not Islamists. Bad guys have > no religion, so don't say it's Islamic terrorism. They come from nowhere. > May be from Mars, but certainly not from Pakistan or Saudi Arabia. They are > not our people, not Kashmiris or Delhi-ites. > > Don't embarrass Pakistan by pointing fingers at it or at SIMI or Hurriyat -- > we are continuing with our Confidence Building Measures and such blasts aim > to disrupt it. Why should we allow that? > > Another feature, another magazine: SIMI is an association like the YMCA, > these communal hate-mongers have connived with the Congress government to > implicate them wrongly while they were conducting adult education classes. > Please see the truth from secular eyes and defeat the anti-Afzal Guru crowd. > Maybe the next time we will include Afzal as a minister for internal > security after having experimented with the Muslim League as a partner in > governance. > > The Deoband's concerned maulvis will again issue a statement to be welcomed > by all peace-loving people. Look, they have again said that their scriptures > don't recommend this kind of violent jihad and killing innocent people. But > no one would ask them how many killers of the jihadi variety have turned > peaceniks and left their bomb factories after such dictates. > > 'Hindu intolerant groups behind such bomb blasts!' -- another secular > television channel would scream -- because they create an atmosphere to > malign Muslims and get votes, it's election time folks. These bomb blasts, > like the Godhra train fire, have been planned by Hindu chauvinists. > > A job well done. We can all go to sleep. > > When cowards run the State, the nation bleeds. > > A will to eliminate the weeds and face the wrath of malevolent elements with > the confidence of a victor is the prerequisite to be a ruler and, yes, to be > a citizen. If it's there, you build a nation. If not, civilisations vanish. > > If citizens encourage and harbour the wicked, forget dates like December 13 > that should be remembered, forget to take revenge on anti-nationals, > continue with their late-night parties when dead bodies of their fellow > citizens lie splattered in busy fashion markets, no one can save that > deadwood society. > > Where writers and columnists advocate yielding to the gun-wielding > secessionists because 'they want it', no one can save that country from > disintegrating as every day new secessionists will emerge. > > It's useless to blame this party or that organisation. See what we have done > and to what level the state of affairs have been brought to. Everything > boils down to personal wars and wins, and homemade potboilers rule the top > echelons of organisations. > > The nation as a matter of serious planning and vision has simply vanished > off the agendas of those who are the known faces of our leadership and > decision-making mechanism of the State. > > Personal jealousies, vendettas and *mandi*-isation of the high and mighty > turn peoples' security into a joke of the ghostland where signal-jammers and > black cat commandos iconise the Neros and the Republic is left to fend for > itself. > > This is our state of affairs today. > > Any day, any time, anyone. > > Free Afzal committees. Visits to the Azamgarh home of a terrorist. Demand > citizenship for Bangladeshi infiltrators. Demand ban on patriotic > organisations. Win the election. That's the final aim of governance and our > living. Only the people are to be blamed. It's a democracy. Choose those who > bring you safety and succour. *If you choose the marauders you get back > marauders.* > > The Indian people, as Indians alone, have done it marvellously before too > whenever the occasion demanded solidarity and cohesion. Kargil saw it, 1965 > saw it, 1962 had a great solidarity of the patriots. Always, it's the > leaders and politicians who have failed the country and backstabbed the > trust people had reposed in them. > > Peoples' power saw that the culprits behind the Uphaar cinema fire tragedy > case were brought to book, however influential they may be. It was because > of their pressure and media build-up that the Nandas were punished in the > BMW case. The Right to Information Act is a great instrument given to the > people not because politicians wanted it but there was public pressure to > have it and finally it was done. > > And look how Jammu rose to see the tricolour win against the Pakistani flag- > *wallah*s. No one had ever imagined a people can create an upsurge unknown > in regional history and win too. Great things happen nimble-footed. The > British never had ay inkling of the 1857 uprising till Mangal Pandey shot > the British officer in Barrackpore. Jayaprakash Narayn's too was a movement > whose expanse and impact no one had anticipated, and so was the Ram > Janambhoomi movement that changed the contours of the Indian polity. > > If people will, they can. > > Indians will have to decide how many more will have to die before they feel > compelled to rise in revolt. India needs a rebellion of Indian people who > would merge all their other identities under one banner -- the tricolour. > Forget temples, churches and mosques. The first to protect the church should > be a Hindu like the first to protect a swami should be a Christian. That's > where the nation gets life. > > When the nation is in peril, gods must be discovered in national unity and > not within concrete structures. These ugly, nincompoop politicos need to be > thrown into the dustbin lock, stock and barrel. The truth is we, as Indians, > never paid a price for our independence and honour. When I had interviewed > Morarji Desai, which turned out to be one of his last, in his Mumbai > apartment, he said not more than five percent Indians had participated in > the independence struggle. The rest were either too lazy to come out or had > lined up before the British for *bakshish* and be their officers. > > Read what Abraham Lincoln did to save America from disintegration and his > famous Gettysburg address and also his inaugural one as president. He > accepted a civil war but refused the demand to divide America. Nearly seven > lakh Americans died in that war, but a new sun rose on its horizon that > inspired millions across the globe with its egalitarian and democratic > values. > > *What sacrifices have we offered to save national integrity and the civil > life of our nation?* > > Isn't it time to ask this question and rise in rebellion to say 'no' to this > bloodbath unitedly? > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or yourname at rocketmail.com. Click here http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address From indersalim at gmail.com Sun Sep 21 11:54:18 2008 From: indersalim at gmail.com (inder salim) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 11:54:18 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] When cowards run the State, the nation bleeds In-Reply-To: <930740.16662.qm@web31506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <930740.16662.qm@web31506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47e122a70809202324m460f6f88ha94484c8e2655de@mail.gmail.com> Dear Singh Genius is a scanalous audacity of nothing, well said by JP Sartre well, who will define the activities of BajrangDal ? for me they are terrorists there are people who say IM too are not terrorists, how to balance it the best is if we commit ourselves to secular values, guaranteed in the constitution. we can not give latitude to one and accuse the other that will be counterproductiive let us see and wathc best is On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 9:43 AM, Prabhakar Singh wrote: > Dear Inder, > > This is where genius intellectuals like you fail when they try to confuse the issue and try to take sides cleverly.Issue is terrorism not secularism.To please you let us ban a small Bajrang Dal first and make all Islamic terrorists operating under different names and banners free to operate anywhere in the name of equality,secularism,minority,backwardness,vote-bank etc. who have shaken the entire world by their activities. > > Regards, > > Prabhakar > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: inder salim > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Sunday, 21 September, 2008 12:25:30 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] When cowards run the State, the nation bleeds > > dear aditya, > just want to know what is your reaction to Paswan's demand to ban Bajrang Dal? > > i think he should have demanded this a decade earlier, > when we demand a ban on Simi we should automatically ban BajrangDal and VHP ? > > and if not , just tell me why, > if the Govt. fails to ban BajragDal, they are truly cowards, > > this is to restore some basic components of secularism in india. > > love > is > > > > On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 12:15 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: >> When cowards run the State, the nation bleeds >> >> *Tarun Vijay | *September 17, 2008 >> >> http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/sep/17tarun.htm >> >> Again the same old stories, the same threats and same resolve of politicos, >> like wet, squeezed paper. We told you so, at that date and time, but you >> didn't listen. We asked for a stringent law. Our intelligence department was >> warned, yet no one acted. >> >> It's a plot to derail the peace process with Pakistan, we shall never get >> trapped but continue our *mohabbat*. They are not Islamists. Bad guys have >> no religion, so don't say it's Islamic terrorism. They come from nowhere. >> May be from Mars, but certainly not from Pakistan or Saudi Arabia. They are >> not our people, not Kashmiris or Delhi-ites. >> >> Don't embarrass Pakistan by pointing fingers at it or at SIMI or Hurriyat -- >> we are continuing with our Confidence Building Measures and such blasts aim >> to disrupt it. Why should we allow that? >> >> Another feature, another magazine: SIMI is an association like the YMCA, >> these communal hate-mongers have connived with the Congress government to >> implicate them wrongly while they were conducting adult education classes. >> Please see the truth from secular eyes and defeat the anti-Afzal Guru crowd. >> Maybe the next time we will include Afzal as a minister for internal >> security after having experimented with the Muslim League as a partner in >> governance. >> >> The Deoband's concerned maulvis will again issue a statement to be welcomed >> by all peace-loving people. Look, they have again said that their scriptures >> don't recommend this kind of violent jihad and killing innocent people. But >> no one would ask them how many killers of the jihadi variety have turned >> peaceniks and left their bomb factories after such dictates. >> >> 'Hindu intolerant groups behind such bomb blasts!' -- another secular >> television channel would scream -- because they create an atmosphere to >> malign Muslims and get votes, it's election time folks. These bomb blasts, >> like the Godhra train fire, have been planned by Hindu chauvinists. >> >> A job well done. We can all go to sleep. >> >> When cowards run the State, the nation bleeds. >> >> A will to eliminate the weeds and face the wrath of malevolent elements with >> the confidence of a victor is the prerequisite to be a ruler and, yes, to be >> a citizen. If it's there, you build a nation. If not, civilisations vanish. >> >> If citizens encourage and harbour the wicked, forget dates like December 13 >> that should be remembered, forget to take revenge on anti-nationals, >> continue with their late-night parties when dead bodies of their fellow >> citizens lie splattered in busy fashion markets, no one can save that >> deadwood society. >> >> Where writers and columnists advocate yielding to the gun-wielding >> secessionists because 'they want it', no one can save that country from >> disintegrating as every day new secessionists will emerge. >> >> It's useless to blame this party or that organisation. See what we have done >> and to what level the state of affairs have been brought to. Everything >> boils down to personal wars and wins, and homemade potboilers rule the top >> echelons of organisations. >> >> The nation as a matter of serious planning and vision has simply vanished >> off the agendas of those who are the known faces of our leadership and >> decision-making mechanism of the State. >> >> Personal jealousies, vendettas and *mandi*-isation of the high and mighty >> turn peoples' security into a joke of the ghostland where signal-jammers and >> black cat commandos iconise the Neros and the Republic is left to fend for >> itself. >> >> This is our state of affairs today. >> >> Any day, any time, anyone. >> >> Free Afzal committees. Visits to the Azamgarh home of a terrorist. Demand >> citizenship for Bangladeshi infiltrators. Demand ban on patriotic >> organisations. Win the election. That's the final aim of governance and our >> living. Only the people are to be blamed. It's a democracy. Choose those who >> bring you safety and succour. *If you choose the marauders you get back >> marauders.* >> >> The Indian people, as Indians alone, have done it marvellously before too >> whenever the occasion demanded solidarity and cohesion. Kargil saw it, 1965 >> saw it, 1962 had a great solidarity of the patriots. Always, it's the >> leaders and politicians who have failed the country and backstabbed the >> trust people had reposed in them. >> >> Peoples' power saw that the culprits behind the Uphaar cinema fire tragedy >> case were brought to book, however influential they may be. It was because >> of their pressure and media build-up that the Nandas were punished in the >> BMW case. The Right to Information Act is a great instrument given to the >> people not because politicians wanted it but there was public pressure to >> have it and finally it was done. >> >> And look how Jammu rose to see the tricolour win against the Pakistani flag- >> *wallah*s. No one had ever imagined a people can create an upsurge unknown >> in regional history and win too. Great things happen nimble-footed. The >> British never had ay inkling of the 1857 uprising till Mangal Pandey shot >> the British officer in Barrackpore. Jayaprakash Narayn's too was a movement >> whose expanse and impact no one had anticipated, and so was the Ram >> Janambhoomi movement that changed the contours of the Indian polity. >> >> If people will, they can. >> >> Indians will have to decide how many more will have to die before they feel >> compelled to rise in revolt. India needs a rebellion of Indian people who >> would merge all their other identities under one banner -- the tricolour. >> Forget temples, churches and mosques. The first to protect the church should >> be a Hindu like the first to protect a swami should be a Christian. That's >> where the nation gets life. >> >> When the nation is in peril, gods must be discovered in national unity and >> not within concrete structures. These ugly, nincompoop politicos need to be >> thrown into the dustbin lock, stock and barrel. The truth is we, as Indians, >> never paid a price for our independence and honour. When I had interviewed >> Morarji Desai, which turned out to be one of his last, in his Mumbai >> apartment, he said not more than five percent Indians had participated in >> the independence struggle. The rest were either too lazy to come out or had >> lined up before the British for *bakshish* and be their officers. >> >> Read what Abraham Lincoln did to save America from disintegration and his >> famous Gettysburg address and also his inaugural one as president. He >> accepted a civil war but refused the demand to divide America. Nearly seven >> lakh Americans died in that war, but a new sun rose on its horizon that >> inspired millions across the globe with its egalitarian and democratic >> values. >> >> *What sacrifices have we offered to save national integrity and the civil >> life of our nation?* >> >> Isn't it time to ask this question and rise in rebellion to say 'no' to this >> bloodbath unitedly? >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > > Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or yourname at rocketmail.com. Click here http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com From prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com Sun Sep 21 13:24:11 2008 From: prabhakardelhi at yahoo.com (Prabhakar Singh) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 00:54:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Reader-list] When cowards run the State, the nation bleeds Message-ID: <184301.62919.qm@web31506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Inder,   I am not sympathetic to Bajrang Dal which is nothing before the dimension of Islamic terrorism in the entire world.But I am not for putting conditions in favour of one or other terrorist outfit in the name of secularism or whatever.Ground facts are very well known to all of us. Please watch out for your inherent emotional weaknesses before making well-worded one-sided intellectual arguments.I would request a genius and gifted person like you to kindly rise above it and lead us and lead the nation to safety.   Regards,   Prabhakar ----- Original Message ---- From: inder salim To: reader-list at sarai.net Sent: Sunday, 21 September, 2008 11:54:18 AM Subject: Re: [Reader-list] When cowards run the State, the nation bleeds Dear Singh Genius is a scanalous audacity of nothing, well said by  JP Sartre well, who will define the activities of BajrangDal ?  for me they are terrorists there are people who say IM too are not terrorists, how to balance it the best is if we commit ourselves to secular values, guaranteed in the constitution. we can not give latitude to one and accuse the other that will be counterproductiive let us see and wathc best is On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 9:43 AM, Prabhakar Singh wrote: > Dear Inder, > > This is where genius intellectuals like you fail when they try to confuse the issue and try to take sides cleverly.Issue is terrorism not secularism.To please you let us ban a small Bajrang Dal first and make all Islamic terrorists operating under different names and banners free to operate anywhere in the name of equality,secularism,minority,backwardness,vote-bank etc. who have shaken the entire world by their activities. > > Regards, > > Prabhakar > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: inder salim > To: reader-list at sarai.net > Sent: Sunday, 21 September, 2008 12:25:30 AM > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] When cowards run the State, the nation bleeds > > dear aditya, > just want to know what is your reaction to Paswan's demand to ban Bajrang Dal? > > i think he should have demanded this a decade earlier, > when we demand a ban on Simi we should automatically ban BajrangDal and VHP ? > > and if not , just tell me why, > if the  Govt. fails to ban BajragDal, they are truly cowards, > > this is to restore some basic components of secularism in india. > > love > is > > > > On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 12:15 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: >>  When cowards run the State, the nation bleeds >> >> *Tarun Vijay | *September 17, 2008 >> >> http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/sep/17tarun.htm >> >> Again the same old stories, the same threats and same resolve of politicos, >> like wet, squeezed paper. We told you so, at that date and time, but you >> didn't listen. We asked for a stringent law. Our intelligence department was >> warned, yet no one acted. >> >> It's a plot to derail the peace process with Pakistan, we shall never get >> trapped but continue our *mohabbat*. They are not Islamists. Bad guys have >> no religion, so don't say it's Islamic terrorism. They come from nowhere. >> May be from Mars, but certainly not from Pakistan or Saudi Arabia. They are >> not our people, not Kashmiris or Delhi-ites. >> >> Don't embarrass Pakistan by pointing fingers at it or at SIMI or Hurriyat -- >> we are continuing with our Confidence Building Measures and such blasts aim >> to disrupt it. Why should we allow that? >> >> Another feature, another magazine: SIMI is an association like the YMCA, >> these communal hate-mongers have connived with the Congress government to >> implicate them wrongly while they were conducting adult education classes. >> Please see the truth from secular eyes and defeat the anti-Afzal Guru crowd. >> Maybe the next time we will include Afzal as a minister for internal >> security after having experimented with the Muslim League as a partner in >> governance. >> >> The Deoband's concerned maulvis will again issue a statement to be welcomed >> by all peace-loving people. Look, they have again said that their scriptures >> don't recommend this kind of violent jihad and killing innocent people. But >> no one would ask them how many killers of the jihadi variety have turned >> peaceniks and left their bomb factories after such dictates. >> >> 'Hindu intolerant groups behind such bomb blasts!' -- another secular >> television channel would scream -- because they create an atmosphere to >> malign Muslims and get votes, it's election time folks. These bomb blasts, >> like the Godhra train fire, have been planned by Hindu chauvinists. >> >> A job well done. We can all go to sleep. >> >> When cowards run the State, the nation bleeds. >> >> A will to eliminate the weeds and face the wrath of malevolent elements with >> the confidence of a victor is the prerequisite to be a ruler and, yes, to be >> a citizen. If it's there, you build a nation. If not, civilisations vanish. >> >> If citizens encourage and harbour the wicked, forget dates like December 13 >> that should be remembered, forget to take revenge on anti-nationals, >> continue with their late-night parties when dead bodies of their fellow >> citizens lie splattered in busy fashion markets, no one can save that >> deadwood society. >> >> Where writers and columnists advocate yielding to the gun-wielding >> secessionists because 'they want it', no one can save that country from >> disintegrating as every day new secessionists will emerge. >> >> It's useless to blame this party or that organisation. See what we have done >> and to what level the state of affairs have been brought to. Everything >> boils down to personal wars and wins, and homemade potboilers rule the top >> echelons of organisations. >> >> The nation as a matter of serious planning and vision has simply vanished >> off the agendas of those who are the known faces of our leadership and >> decision-making mechanism of the State. >> >> Personal jealousies, vendettas and *mandi*-isation of the high and mighty >> turn peoples' security into a joke of the ghostland where signal-jammers and >> black cat commandos iconise the Neros and the Republic is left to fend for >> itself. >> >> This is our state of affairs today. >> >> Any day, any time, anyone. >> >> Free Afzal committees. Visits to the Azamgarh home of a terrorist. Demand >> citizenship for Bangladeshi infiltrators. Demand ban on patriotic >> organisations. Win the election. That's the final aim of governance and our >> living. Only the people are to be blamed. It's a democracy. Choose those who >> bring you safety and succour. *If you choose the marauders you get back >> marauders.* >> >> The Indian people, as Indians alone, have done it marvellously before too >> whenever the occasion demanded solidarity and cohesion. Kargil saw it, 1965 >> saw it, 1962 had a great solidarity of the patriots. Always, it's the >> leaders and politicians who have failed the country and backstabbed the >> trust people had reposed in them. >> >> Peoples' power saw that the culprits behind the Uphaar cinema fire tragedy >> case were brought to book, however influential they may be. It was because >> of their pressure and media build-up that the Nandas were punished in the >> BMW case. The Right to Information Act is a great instrument given to the >> people not because politicians wanted it but there was public pressure to >> have it and finally it was done. >> >> And look how Jammu rose to see the tricolour win against the Pakistani flag- >> *wallah*s. No one had ever imagined a people can create an upsurge unknown >> in regional history and win too. Great things happen nimble-footed. The >> British never had ay inkling of the 1857 uprising till Mangal Pandey shot >> the British officer in Barrackpore. Jayaprakash Narayn's too was a movement >> whose expanse and impact no one had anticipated, and so was the Ram >> Janambhoomi movement that changed the contours of the Indian polity. >> >> If people will, they can. >> >> Indians will have to decide how many more will have to die before they feel >> compelled to rise in revolt. India needs a rebellion of Indian people who >> would merge all their other identities under one banner -- the tricolour. >> Forget temples, churches and mosques. The first to protect the church should >> be a Hindu like the first to protect a swami should be a Christian. That's >> where the nation gets life. >> >> When the nation is in peril, gods must be discovered in national unity and >> not within concrete structures. These ugly, nincompoop politicos need to be >> thrown into the dustbin lock, stock and barrel. The truth is we, as Indians, >> never paid a price for our independence and honour. When I had interviewed >> Morarji Desai, which turned out to be one of his last, in his Mumbai >> apartment, he said not more than five percent Indians had participated in >> the independence struggle. The rest were either too lazy to come out or had >> lined up before the British for *bakshish* and be their officers. >> >> Read what Abraham Lincoln did to save America from disintegration and his >> famous Gettysburg address and also his inaugural one as president. He >> accepted a civil war but refused the demand to divide America. Nearly seven >> lakh Americans died in that war, but a new sun rose on its horizon that >> inspired millions across the globe with its egalitarian and democratic >> values. >> >> *What sacrifices have we offered to save national integrity and the civil >> life of our nation?* >> >> Isn't it time to ask this question and rise in rebellion to say 'no' to this >> bloodbath unitedly? >> _________________________________________ >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. >> Critiques & Collaborations >> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. >> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list >> List archive: > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: > > >      Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or yourname at rocketmail.com. Click here http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address > -- http://indersalim.livejournal.com _________________________________________ reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. Critiques & Collaborations To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header. To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> Get an email ID as yourname at ymail.com or yourname at rocketmail.com. Click here http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address From sabitha_tp at yahoo.co.uk Sun Sep 21 13:47:36 2008 From: sabitha_tp at yahoo.co.uk (sabitha t p) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 08:17:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Reader-list] FW: FOURTH ESTATE CRITIQUE Fwd: Some Questions About The Delhi Encounter Message-ID: <255466.49728.qm@web25402.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 21/9/08, satchidanandan k wrote: From: bobby.kunhu at gmail.com To: fourth-estate-critique at googlegroups.com; grassroots-in-action at googlegroups.com Subject: FOURTH ESTATE CRITIQUE Fwd: Some Questions About The Delhi Encounter ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Ajay Date: 2008/9/21 Subject: Some Questions About The Delhi Encounter Some Questions About The Delhi Encounter By Shabnam Hashmi, Satya Sivaraman, Manisha Sethi, Tanweer Fazal, Arshad Alam & Pallavi Deka 21 September, 2008 Countercurrents.org A team comprising activists, academicians and journalists visited the site of the police operation against alleged terrorists staying in an apartment in Jamia Nagar in the afternoon of 20.09.2008 (Saturday). Two alleged terrorists Atif and Sajid, along with Mohan Chand Sharma, an inspector of the Delhi Police's Special Cell died in the operation while a third alleged terrorist was arrested. On the basis of our interactions with the local residents, eye witnesses and the reports which have appeared in the media, we would like to pose the following questions: 1) It has been widely reported (and not refuted by the Police) that in early August this year Atif, who is described by the Delhi Police as the mastermind behind the recent terrorist bombings in Jaipur, Ahmedabad and Delhi, underwent a police verification exercise along with his four roommates in order to rent the apartment they were staying in Jamia Nagar. All the five youth living in the apartment submitted to the Delhi police their personal details, including permanent address, driving license details, address of the house they previously stayed in, all of which were found to be accurate. Is it conceivable that the alleged kingpin behind the terrorist Indian Mujahideen outfit would have wanted to undergo a police verification- for whatever purpose- just a week after the Ahmedabad blasts and a month before the bombings in Delhi? 2) The four-storeyed house L-18 in Jamia Nagar, where the alleged terrorists were staying, has only one access point, through the stair case, which is covered by an iron grill. It is impossible to leave the house except from the staircase. By all reports, the staircase was taken over by the Special Cell and/ or other agencies during the counter-terror operation. The house, indeed the entire block, was cordoned off at the time of the operation. How then was it then possible, as claimed by the police, for two alleged terrorists to escape the premises during the police operation? 3) The media has quoted 'police sources' as having informed them that the Special Cell was fully aware about the presence of dreaded terrorists, involved in the bombings in Jaipur, Ahmedabad and Delhi, staying in the apartment that was raided. Why was the late Inspector Mohan Chand Sharma, a veteran of dozens of encounter operations, the only officer in the operation not wearing a bullet proof vest? Was this due to over-confidence or is there something else to his mysterious death during the operation? Will the forensic report of the bullets that killed Inspector Sharma be made public? 4) There are reports that towards the end of the counter-terror operation, some policemen climbed on the roof of L-18 and fired several rounds in the air. Other policemen were seen breaking windows and even throwing flower pots to the ground from flats adjacent or opposite to L-18 Why was the police firing in the air and why did it indulge in destruction of property around L-18 after the encounter? 5) The police officials claim that an AK-47 and pistols were recovered from L-18. What was the weapon that killed Inspector Sharma? Was the AK-47 used at all and by whom? Going by some reports that have appeared (see 'Times of India', 20.09.08), the AK-47s have been used by the police only. Is it not strange that alleged terrorists did not use a more deadly and sophisticated weapon like the AK-47, which they purportedly possessed, preferring to use pistols? We feel that there are far too many loose ends in the current story of the police encounter at L-18 in Jamia Nagar. We demand that a fair, impartial and independent probe into the incident be initiated at the earliest to answer the above questions as also any other ones that arise from the contradictions of the case. Signed/- Shabnam Hashmi, Satya Sivaraman, Manisha Sethi, Tanweer Fazal, Arshad Alam, Pallavi Deka Download prohibited? No problem. CHAT from any browser, without download. Go to http://in.webmessenger.yahoo.com/ From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Sun Sep 21 15:17:25 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 14:47:25 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0809201417l33d0c926y17bcb507d8e4413c@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690809182021u4fb74001g9064d3fa5b8b2c6f@mail.gmail.com> <"169 ff67c0809190317o72d3ee9l3b502a73561d1372"@mail.gmail.com> <"48c2916d0809190414 g6ce8861eq441fa7d5d609bd32"@mail.gmail.com> <"48c2916d0809191232u65c82564le e7992d112a4cb6"@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809200209r45db4222y10920e7515bddb76@mail.gmail.com> <"169ff67c08092 00442r540cfd70l9518587f83a48990"@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690809200637n797d44d3of4ca06c4586df0d7@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809201417l33d0c926y17bcb507d8e4413c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Aarti, it is your sheer frustration that is visible now in your egotrip, not national interest, not secular credentials. You were upset when I wrote about jamianagar and its dark underbelly. i am not the only one, Saeed Yousef also has given details about the dark side of jamianagar. As to prejudice, don't you have any prejudice as you post all your posts. ? The very fact that today all hindus are rising above the caste conundrum, trying to forge out as one society is cause of concern for many apologists of secularism, including the blacksheep in media, particularly visual media. Any divided society is easy to exploit. One lesson that hindu society has to learn is how the christian even though is a miniscule, can get away with crime because of its unity. Freedom struggle has seen hindu and muslims shoulder to shoulder struggling for the removal of slavery, whereas the christian at that time was converted hindu who bootlicked the shoes of british to get lands for bible society, school and place of worship. Can you give me one single name of a christian who fought against the british rule. ? Sonia and her capo-regimes have failed her badly this time, it is because the unity of hindu society has exposed those hindus who claim to be secular, but desperate to spoil the fair name of BJP. By the way, the sycophancy of Mallikarjun Kharge is such that he has named all his progeny after sonia, luckily his wife is not named Sonia. This man is known for his proximity to goons and the other person who was lying low all these years, is KJ George, after defeats in elections earlier, was under scanner for his brother being close to ivory smuggling and sandalwood smuggling. Oscar who was absconding from Udipi after repeated defeats in elections suddenly was present in Mangalore and Udup just before the incidents. But , to say all this attacks were pre arranged by these rowdy elements, nay caporegimes of Sonia is bit difficult now, as proof and evidence has to be gathered which the authorities are at it. By the way, magge Alw after repeated defeates, rejection by voters was busy with her sons in TV soap productions. Now after the incidents this bindi brigade nityasumangali has made tv appearence with Womens rights commission.! Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: Aarti Sethi Date: Sunday, September 21, 2008 2:48 am Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised To: Aditya Raj Kaul Cc: sarai list > I know. It is unfortunate isn't it? And youre right. I have run > out of > arguments. Making an argument presumes rational discussion. When > someone is > displaying nothing more than rank prejudice then no discussion or > argumentis possible. I am amazed that we can read the sort of > poison that issues on > a daily basis from radhika and continue to have him on this list. > > I would suggest you not give me pointers on etiquette and > politness Aditya. > All I have said is shut up. Not a terribly offensive or cutting > statement.It is only asking the person concerned to desist from > speaking. Certainly > nothing in the region of the things you have been censored for on > this list > not so long ago. I am even more amazed that you can call yourself > a secular > person (which you insist on doing) and condone at the same time > talk which > is racist, misogynist hate speech. Before giving me platitudes it > would do > well to think hard about the kind of talk you condone and the > views you > hold. This is probably why no one takes you seriously on this list > eventhough we all are sympatehtic to the Kashmiri pandit cause. > Unfortunately it > is done a great disservice by the likes of you. It is hard to have any > sympathy with someone who parades his victimhood at every possible > oppurtunity and yet is so vicious and hateful towards another > community. It > is disgusting. > > > > > On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 7:07 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: > > Its unfortunate whoever uses terms such as "Enough. Just. Shut. > Up. Be. > > Quiet." and still holds the right to be a member of this forum. > If you run > > out of arguments; you don't resort to such cheap behaviour. Its > better you > > take to learning; rather then proveing your best to be a so called > > scholarly > > jhollahwaalah. > > > > We are not here to read your "Pass-Time" debate. If you enjoy > it; then > > kindly take it offline. Grow Up...! > > > > Love > > Aditya Raj Kaul > > > > On 9/20/08, Nazneen Anand Shamsi wrote: > > > > > > Dear Aarti, > > > > > > This is not with respect to this or that incident. I would > like to make a > > > general comment regarding, state and statecraft. Please tell > me what is > > > wrong in devising categories to mark a population in order to > rule them? > > > What is the great moral dilemma in bumping off few of them > here to keeep > > > the > > > official fiction alive? Many of our friends take a position or > a point of > > > view on the reader list because perhaps they are in a position of > > privilege > > > to do so? So by producing a list a dissenters and hence > personalizing> > discourse on dissent, a Shuddhabrata, can very > easily make a poignant > > > emotional appeal, but tell me, do you believe that, a nation > or any > > nation > > > can merely run on such emotional exercises rooted in > deliberation alone. > > > Apropos angst about 'media circus'. Tell me Aarti, what was a > Ramayana or > > a > > > Mahabharata or a Karbala is if not like a great 'media circus' > of an epic > > > scale. Such imagery, such poetry, such fine use of metaphors. > So much so > > > that every time I read these texts I am overwhelmed with the sheer > > > exquisiteness of language and craft. Or for instance what was > Vietnam war > > > if > > > not a great 'media circus' which swung the other way after an > image of > > > wailing Paris was published on 8th June 1972. The point being, > I think > > > 'media circus' is a neccesary condition for state and > statehood. The > > state > > > as we know and recognise and critque now, grew out of anarchy. > It may not > > > have been 'a state of nature' in the strictest of Lockean > sense but > > > nevertheless, I think, it need its 'circuses' to give us, a > sense of > > > identity, a sense of involvement and a sense of purpose. Howsoever > > > fractured > > > or precarious it may be. > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Nazo > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 10:09 AM, Aarti Sethi > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Dear Lalit, > > > > > > > > I have never questioned yours or anyone else's attachment to > Kashmir or > > > > said > > > > it was invalid. I am sure you feel a great deal for what you > have left > > > > behind and I respect that, as I am sure does everyone else > on this > > list. > > > > The > > > > fact that you are unable to live there must cause you > tremendous sorrow > > > and > > > > it is a terrible tragedy. I was making a point about the > sort of > > > attachment > > > > it is possible for me to have, which is of an entirely > different order. > > > > > > > > Having said that, I'm not sure how you are making the rest > of the > > > > connections in your response. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It wasn't the case of 'no evidence' but 'insufficient > evidence' & we > > > all > > > > > respect the judicial verdict- 'released' even though on > 'technical> > > grounds' > > > > > only. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am not sure what the scare quotes are meant to achieve. > Scare quotes > > > are > > > > normally used to qualify, or question, the validity of a > word or > > phrase. > > > So > > > > 'released' makes no sense, because he was in fact acquitted. > There is > > no > > > > room for doubt about this. Again I am unable to understand > what 'even > > > > though > > > > on technical grounds only' is supposed to mean. There are no > OTHER> > grounds > > > > on which acquittals are made. People are only ever acquitted on > > technical > > > > grounds. Evidence is a technicality of the judicial process. > When there > > > is > > > > no evidence linking someone to an event, then they are > acquitted. I am > > > > unable to understand what you find so confusing about this. > Its really > > > > quite > > > > simple in this case. > > > > > > > > I do not suppose we can ever imagine what a nightmare SAR > Geelani must > > > have > > > > gone through. But I think we should be a little more > respectful of > > things > > > > we > > > > are lucky we have not had occasion to experience. > > > > > > > > best > > > > Aarti > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 01:02:06 +0530 > > > > > From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com > > > > > To: lalitambardar at hotmail.com > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir > criticised> > > > CC: radhikarajen at vsnl.net; reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Lalit, > > > > > > > > > > Yes he was released on "technical" grounds. The > "technical" grounds > > > that > > > > > the law acquits people on, namely on the utter lack of any > evidence> > > linking > > > > > him to the parliament attack. I know the fact that someone is > > innocent > > > is > > > > a > > > > > flimsy excuse in your book because it would be much better > to hang > > him > > > > > nonetheless and "salve the conscience of the nation", > however you > > will > > > be > > > > > surprised to know that evidence of culpability is actually > pretty> > central > > > > to > > > > > the judicial process. Unfortunately, it is not simply > enough for you > > to > > > > > believe that Geelani was behind the attack, it has to be > proved. It > > has > > > > not > > > > > been proved. There is no evidence at all. > > > > > > > > > > I have said this before on this list, and I am saying it > again - > > > terror, > > > > > whether by agents acting against the state and terror by > the state > > are > > > > > mirrors of each other. Monstrous shadows that seemingly > confront each > > > > other > > > > > in a relationship of tense alterity. And who is to say > which is which > > > and > > > > > who is whom? > > > > > > > > > > In the times in which we live we will be asked again and > again to > > > suspend > > > > > our sense of justice, of ethical responsibility in the > name of > > national > > > > > security, of fighting terror. To justify everything - fake > > encounters, > > > > > arrest without warrants, torture, detention on suspicion, > rape - so > > > that > > > > we > > > > > may all be safe. Safe from what? We are producing the > ghosts that > > haunt > > > > us. > > > > > > > > > > best > > > > > Aarti > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 6:45 PM, Lalit Ambardar < > > > > lalitambardar at hotmail.com > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > By the way, this 'guy' was released on 'technical > grounds' only. > > Even > > > > one > > > > > of that 'celebrity' senior most criminal lawyers could not > get him > > > > relieved > > > > > of this tag. And yet, he continues with his diatribe > against India. > > > > > > > > > > And for these 'mobile citizens' they appear to be a > confused lot. > > Here, > > > > > they espouse the cause of the pan Islamism driven > secessionism in > > > > Kashmir & > > > > > lo, there they raise an issue on the relationship between > the 'land' > > & > > > > 'the > > > > > nation'. They have no quarrel with those who thump the > 'very land' in > > > > > kashmir with their heals ranting 'ragda'....'ragda' > implying 'crush > > > > India'. > > > > > How ironic . Those who do not want to be part of this > nation are > > > welcome > > > > to > > > > > opt for the 'land of the pure' & it quite fits in to the > mobile> > > citizens' > > > > > theory- you could still love the land (even if one ignores > that> > > > stupid 'ragda'....'ragda' thumping....???... ) yet > need not posses > > it. > > > > > Regards all > > > > > LA > > > > > p s : Opposite of 'nation state' can only be 'anarchy' & > 'anarchy'> can > > > > > only lead to 'mayhem' that is so visible in > > > > > Kashmir since 1989-90. > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 16:45:02 +0500 > > > > > > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net > > > > > > To: aarti.sethi at gmail.com > > > > > > CC: reader-list at sarai.net > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir > criticised> > > > > > > > > > > Aarti, > > > > > > > > > > > > we seem to have carried forward of the concept of > freedom and > > rights > > > > too > > > > > far without realising to be free, we have some > responsibility also to > > > the > > > > > nation and society that has bestowed upon us the freedom > and rights. > > in > > > > fact > > > > > the rights have the other side of the coin, that is > duties. Without > > > > duties > > > > > to the society, exercising only rights is like license to > behave as > > any > > > > > individual wants, a license to tamper the rights of others in > > society, > > > it > > > > is > > > > > license to be irrelevant in a society which has given > rights to > > > > individuals > > > > > to be free. > > > > > > > > > > > > A Roy, after winning a booker prize and some dollars can > not be > > > > > exercising her rights without the responsibilty to the > society in > > which > > > > she > > > > > lives. If she declares herself as walking and talking > republic then > > she > > > > has > > > > > every right to say so, but her safety then, solely on her, > not on the > > > > > republic of India as she misbehaves in the society that > she lives in > > > > > > > > > > > > A Geelani when he invokes his right of feee expression, > and as > > > activist > > > > > of human rights, he has to be aware of all humans in > society when he > > > > > supports the terror in jamia nagar. When he stores the > ground floor > > > plan > > > > of > > > > > parliament, he has to be aware that, he is neither an > architect nor a > > > > civil > > > > > engineer and his act can help his terrorist friends. A > court may > > acquit > > > > him > > > > > of the charges, but citizens look at him with certain > apprehension,> > > because > > > > > what business he has not to inform of the terror > activities that go > > on > > > in > > > > > his neighbourhood. ? Every citizen is police without > uniform for the > > > > > society, every police is citizen with uniform. When > ghettos of > > muslims > > > > > sheltor, defend the terror accused, the citizens of the > nation feel > > > sorry > > > > > for ntire community and look with disdain. > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: Aarti Sethi > > > > > > Date: Friday, September 19, 2008 4:45 pm > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir > criticised> > > > > To: Nazneen Anand Shamsi > , sarai list < > > > > > reader-list at sarai.net> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Nazneen, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have no quarrel with love for land at all. And read > my post > > > > > > > again. I used > > > > > > > a specific phrase, I said, 'territorial lust for > land'. Can you > > > > > > > love land > > > > > > > without possessing it? That is the question. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How exactly do you build a relationship with land with > which you > > > > > > > have no > > > > > > > personal history of settlement or usage? Now obviously > this is > > > > > > > both an > > > > > > > abstract and a concrete question. I have never been to > Kashmir,> > > > > > does this > > > > > > > mean I cannot have any relationship to it? Of course > not! The > > > > > > > question is > > > > > > > what kind of relationship? When I was one year old my > father went > > > > > > > on a > > > > > > > voyage to Antarctica. One of my most favourite > memories of > > > > > > > childhood is > > > > > > > seeing the slides he brought back of the incredible > snowscapes> and > > > > ice > > > > > > > sheets, and a rock which lay in a corner of our house > for many > > > years. > > > > > > > Apparently it was part of a meteor which smashed into > the earth > > > > > > > some million > > > > > > > years ago. Antarctica is part of no country. Its land > is part of > > > > > > > the common > > > > > > > heritage of humanity, for all to build relationships > with. As far > > > > > > > as I am > > > > > > > concerned this is the only productive, ethical and > creative way > > to > > > > > > > think of > > > > > > > land. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The trouble is being an Indian citizen gives me fictional > > > > > > > 'ownership' over > > > > > > > the entire territory of India. As if I have some special > > > > > > > entitlement to the > > > > > > > square miles that are part of the map. But which land, > whose land > > > > > > > and whose > > > > > > > love? Currently there are struggles going on in this > country - in > > > > > > > singur, in > > > > > > > nandigram, in niyamgiri, to name only three sites - > where people > > > > > > > are asking > > > > > > > this question. Communities it seems have no right to > their own > > > > > > > land in the > > > > > > > name of "development". And this is fine by your logic > is it not? > > > > > > > Because the > > > > > > > development of India means that everyone has an > entitlement. All > > > > > > > land is the > > > > > > > property of the state. When did this come to pass? Can > we ask > > these > > > > > > > questions? Or immediately "pills" must be taken to > stamp out > > these > > > > > > > viruses?Maybe your love for India entitles you to such > a claim, I > > > > > > > do not feel this > > > > > > > entitlement. And in my opinion this sort of > entitlement is where > > > > > > > violence is > > > > > > > born. Can you see the quagmire we are in when we begin to > > collapse > > > > > > > lovefor/of land and territorial entitlement? They are > not the > > same > > > > > > > thing. > > > > > > > What does cheering for the Indian cricket team have to > do with > > the > > > > > > > area per > > > > > > > square miles of India? Believe me, I am not being > facetious at > > > > > > > all. The only > > > > > > > reason this sounds idiotic is because we take for > granted the > > > > > > > logic of the > > > > > > > modern nation state which consists of a sovereign > entity for a > > > > > > > territorialunit, with a standing army to defend this > territory.> > > > > > This is the first > > > > > > > lesson in every graduate political science lecture. > And you are > > > > > > > right, the > > > > > > > nation state is a fragile concept. So maybe we need to ask > > > > > > > ourselves whether > > > > > > > this is not causing more trouble than it is worth... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regarding archives and fiction, this is a longer > discussion and > > > > > > > tangentialto the point I was making. Of course we may > discuss it > > > > > > > if you wish. But just > > > > > > > to clarify what I was saying, I can claim the heritage > of the > > > > > > > whole world as > > > > > > > my own. There is an old humanist saying "the world is > my home" > > and > > > > > > > i think > > > > > > > there is something of tremendous value here. But there are > > several > > > > > > > ways in > > > > > > > which history and heritage can be claimed. One way > seems to be > > > > > > > logic of > > > > > > > subsuming everything, all forms of life and love and > affection> > > > > > into the > > > > > > > rubric of the nation and to stamp out violently any > persons or > > > > > > > forms of life > > > > > > > which fall out of this. I am afraid this is too > violent and > > boring > > > > > > > for me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > regards > > > > > > > Aarti > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 3:47 PM, Nazneen Anand Shamsi < > > > > > > > nazoshmasi at googlemail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Aarti, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please explain how many years constitute a > civilization? For > > > > > > > that matter, > > > > > > > > please elucidate the relationship between temporal > continuity> > > > > > and a concept, > > > > > > > > if any? Why should 'pride in being Indian' exclude > love for > > > > > > > land? As far as > > > > > > > > history books are concerned, I would ask, who is to > decide> which > > > > > > > fiction of > > > > > > > > the archives is valid? Nation state is a fragile > concept, and > > > > > > > whats wrong > > > > > > > > in subduing those who make it more vulnerable? To > not to do so > > > > > > > is I think > > > > > > > > not allow one to take a pill if one is afflicted by > a minor > > > > > > > virus and hope > > > > > > > > that the body will cope on its own...it is > ridiculous isn't it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nazo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 9:39 AM, Aarti Sethi > > > > > > > wrote:> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > The signatories assert that "Kashmir is an > inalienable> > > > > > element of > > > > > > > >> India's > > > > > > > >> > civilisational identity and symbolises the > fundamental> > > > > > principles on > > > > > > > >> which > > > > > > > >> > the modern Indian state has been built." Terming > national> > > > > > will as a > > > > > > > >> > critical > > > > > > > >> > component of state power, they felt that "devious > > > > > > > adversaries" have > > > > > > > >> > resorted > > > > > > > >> > to psychological warfare in order to break the > national> will. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> What is India's 'civilizational identity'? Does 60 > years> > > > > > constitute a > > > > > > > >> 'civilization'? The point is, that to even raise > this question > > > is > > > > > > > >> "sedition". As if those who ask this question are > somehow> naive > > > > > > > deluded>> juvile people. Does 'pride in being Indian', > whatever> > > > > > that is, have to be > > > > > > > >> coupled with a territorial lust for land? I don't > think so. > > Our > > > > > > > >> imaginations > > > > > > > >> and affections surely encompass more than the > nation. And in > > > > > > > fact they do, > > > > > > > >> that is my point. Read any history book taught in > school. We > > > > > > > are so > > > > > > > >> willing > > > > > > > >> so claim 2,000 years of history as 'Indian > history', but that > > > > > > > history>> becomes 'Indian history' only 60 years ago. > The march > > of > > > > > > > history does not > > > > > > > >> cut some straight and true swath from Ashoka to > Nehru, as if > > > > > > > 2,000 years > > > > > > > >> of > > > > > > > >> history is the long unfolding of the story of the > 'Indian> > > > > > nation'. Why is > > > > > > > >> this so scary to concieve is what I don't understand. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Nations are not god-given entities. They are > historically> > > > > > produced units > > > > > > > >> of > > > > > > > >> social organisation. Which is not to say they are > of no value > > > > > > > or that they > > > > > > > >> have never played a progressive role. Or that we > must have no > > > > > > > investment>> in > > > > > > > >> them. But its alright to question and query the > nation. There > > > > > > > is nothing > > > > > > > >> divine about it. Its not 'immoral'. People who are > asking> these > > > > > > > questions>> are not 'bad people', 'enemies of India'. > > > > > > > >> People who are asking today questions about > Kashmir's future > > > > > > > and its > > > > > > > >> relationship with India are asking us to think > deeply and hard > > > > > > > about how > > > > > > > >> India defines her/its identity. This is a good > question, it > > > > > > > would help us > > > > > > > >> all to spend some time on it. It is possible to think > > > > > > > creatively at this > > > > > > > >> moment about the very many ways in which Kashmir > can relate to > > > > > > > India.>> There > > > > > > > >> has been some discussion of those ways on this list > itself.> > > > > > Various kinds > > > > > > > >> of > > > > > > > >> autonomy arrangements, of porous borders, many > things can be > > > > > > > thought>> through. But to deign all such conversations as > > > > > > > "seditious" is no way to > > > > > > > >> go > > > > > > > >> anywhere. > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> best > > > > > > > >> A > > > > > > > >> _________________________________________ > > > > > > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and > the city. > > > > > > > >> Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > >> To subscribe: send an email to > > reader-list-request at sarai.netwith > > > > > > > >> subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > >> To unsubscribe: > > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > > >> List archive: > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the > city.> > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > request at sarai.netwith> > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > > > > > > > list > > > > > > > List archive: list/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list- > request at sarai.net with > > > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > > > To unsubscribe: > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > > > List archive: list/>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > Hottest news and in-depth analysis that goes beyond the > headlines.> Only > > > > on > > > > > MSN News Check it out! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > Get the latest buzz on outsourcing. Up to date information on > > mergers, > > > > > acquisitions and deals on BPO Watch. Try it now!< > > > > http://www.bpowatchindia.com/default.asp> > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________ > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with> > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > > To unsubscribe: > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > > > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > > Critiques & Collaborations > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > > subscribe in the subject header. > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list> > List archive: > > _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > > subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Sun Sep 21 15:21:09 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 14:51:09 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Trespassers in Kashmir? In-Reply-To: <47e122a70809201226r258ec556j3475490160525ff1@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690809201207p3bdfe199hfc9cd82471cc1619@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70809201226r258ec556j3475490160525ff1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Inde, r there are enough villages in rest of India where the poor can not build the graves in grand style, would you say the same azaadi for these villages also from misrule of oldest party in power. ? These graves also are just mudheaps, after some time merge with earth. If good governance is lacking thanks to "secular" style of the system where discrimination is the name of the game, based on caste and faith, is it not a fit case for aaadi from the sycophants party in rule. ? Regards. ----- Original Message ----- From: inder salim Date: Sunday, September 21, 2008 12:57 am Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Trespassers in Kashmir? To: reader-list at sarai.net > Dear Aditya > > let us read it again, what this sexy old man writes: > > "Every village in the Valley has its quota of unmarked graves. How > > long can this be allowed to go on? Give the Valley azadi it > wants. .... put an end to this sorry state of affairs." > > Yes, it is all sad that Indian militrary presence in Kashmir has > produced graves and disappearances, how long this will go, > so it is better, to give them the azadi, Roughly this is what > Arundhati Roy too said... > > > > yes, i am not in favour of a kashmiri army at Lakah pur with guns in > their hands..... the police in the present form is enough.... > > > so, grant every kind of automony to them, this pain should comes to > an immediate end. > > with love > is > > > On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 12:37 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul > wrote: > > Trespassers in Kashmir? > > *Khushwant > Singh> * > > September 19, 2008 > > > > I have yet to hear a Kashmiri Muslim describe himself as Indian. > It was, and > > is to this day: "I am a Kashmiri." Perhaps among the exceptions > are Sheikh > > Abdullah, his son Farooq and grandson Omar. Right from 1947, > whenever India > > played cricket matches against Pakistan, Kashmiri Muslims supported > > Pakistan. If you don't believe me, read Basharat Peer's Curfewed > Night> (Random House). Don't dismiss this as a trivial aberration > because it does > > reveal the Kashmiri Muslim's mindset. Now it has been revealed > for all to > > see. > > > > They want us, Indians, out of the Valley. They may or may not > throw in their > > lot with chronically unstable Pakistan. But have the leaders > demanding azadi > > from India considered the consequences that may follow our > getting out of > > the Valley? The language they use to rouse the rabble indicates they > > haven't. And that applies to leaders of all the separatist factions. > > > > The most serious consequences of *azadi* will be the exodus of > non-Muslims — > > Kashmiri Pandits and Sikhs — from the Valley. Don't accept their > assurances> that it will not happen. It happened when Kashmiri > Pandits left the Valley > > in large numbers because they felt insecure. Mohammad Ali Jinnah and > > Jawaharlal Nehru gave us similar assurances preceding the > > Partition. > > > > If and when Hindus and Sikhs are pushed out of the Valley, right- > wing Hindu > > groups, extending from the RSS, the VHP, the Shiv Sena, the > Bajrang Dal to > > the BJP will press for the expulsion of Muslims from Jammu > (where they are > > in majority in two tehsils) and elsewhere. The Valley's only > commercial> outlets and tourism is linked to India. There is not a > hotel in the country > > that does not have a shop selling Kashmiri handicrafts, carpets > and shawls. > > Thousands of Kashmiri Muslims work as labourers in Indian towns > and cities. > > Will not their future be jeopardised by the call for azadi? If > there is the > > slightest risk of starting mass migrations, we must reject it, > come what > > may. > > > > The situation has been going out of hand since 1990. Basharat > Peer tells us > > that ever since, thousands of Kashmiris have crossed over to > Pakistan to get > > military training and arms and sneaked back into the Valley to > create mayhem > > and murder. > > > > The locals give them shelter and food. > > > > The only response India could make was to send in more troops, > impose severe > > restraints on the locals and kill those they thought were anti- > Indian> militants. Every village in the Valley has its quota of > unmarked graves. How > > long can this be allowed to go on? Give the Valley azadi it > wants. But spell > > it out to mean only internal autonomy to manage its affairs. No > more. India > > must retain its military presence to guard its frontiers against > intruders.> But at all costs, put an end to this sorry state of > affairs.> _________________________________________ > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > > Critiques & Collaborations > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net > with subscribe in the subject header. > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > > List archive: > > > > -- > > http://indersalim.livejournal.com > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader- > list > List archive: From radhikarajen at vsnl.net Sun Sep 21 15:34:29 2008 From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net (radhikarajen at vsnl.net) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 15:04:29 +0500 Subject: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised In-Reply-To: References: <6353c690809182021u4fb74001g9064d3fa5b8b2c6f@mail.gmail.com> <"169 ff67c0809190317o72d3ee9l3b502a73561d1372"@mail.gmail.com> <"48c2916d0809190414 g6ce8861eq441fa7d5d609bd32"@mail.gmail.com> <"48c2916d0809191232u65c82564le e7992d112a4cb6"@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809200209r45db4222y10920e7515bddb76@mail.gmail.com> <"169ff67c08092 00442r540cfd70l9518587f83a48990"@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690809200637n797d44d3of4ca06c4586df0d7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Truth hurts, hurts very strongly. i have lived in Jamianagar, just as any other area it has its share of good muslims, about good muslims I had written last, in my post, they are really too good, they just shut up, they can not , will not raise their voice, they know it is futile. Yes, again all societies have the fair share of bad elements, thiefs, brothels and et all. But in those areas law keepers can act, but Jamianagar, no, never. But if my post has hurt the civilised society, here are my apologies, truth of the matter is Jamianagar is , has been the out bounds area for law keepers, thanks to strong presence of goons of deviant behaviour.. ----- Original Message ----- From: Shuddhabrata Sengupta Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008 7:55 pm Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised To: Aditya Raj Kaul , radhikarajen at vsnl.net Cc: sarai list > Aditya, Radhikarajen > > While I do not endorse anyone telling anyone, be they Aarti or > you, > Aditya, to 'shut up' on the list, (and your 'take it offline' > comment > is only a variation on the 'shut up' theme), I find it indeed > unfortunate that the list is once again being used to spread a > great > deal of malicious comment and insinuation, based on an assessment > of > the religious identity of the people who live in a neighbourhood. > > I found Radhikarajen's comments (which Aarti responded to with her > > 'Enough' post) on the inhabitants of Jamia Nagar deeply offensive. > > I have studied at Jamia Millia Islamia university, and I have many > > friends who live in Jamia Nagar, and Radhikarajen's broad abusive > sweep ('car thieves', 'terrorists', 'goons', 'dirty underbelly', > 'brothel keepers') despite his concluding token caveat about some > of > what he calls 'good muslims' is personally insulting to me (though > I > do not live in Jamia Nagar) and to several of my friends who > happen > to live there. > > I want to know which neighbourhood in Delhi does not contain anti- > social elements. Which neighbourhood is free of bigots, wife > beaters, > begetters of petty violence, arms dealers, con men, informers and > murderers? I grew up during the Anti-Sikh riots of 1984, and I saw > > people in every neighbourhood in Delhi turn on their neighbours, > killing around 6000 people in less than three days. Not a single > area > in Delhi was unscathed by that terrible violence. And in some > ways, > this city is still coping with what happened during those days. > Which > community, which neighbourhood, does not have in its midst people > who > are prone to a pathological desire to see pain inflicted upon > others? > Would we then be justified in saying that Delhi and its mainly > Hindu > inhabitants, is a city full of blood-thirsty people, mainly > arsonists > and rioters, prone to throwing burning tyres on men just because > they > happen to wear turbans and go unshorn? I don't think so, and I > would > argue against anyone who tried to say as much. > > I can see why anyone on the list would be angered and provoked > enough > to say 'enough', when such things are said about particular > communities and neighbourhoods, though I would not agree with > their > expressing it by telling anyone to 'Shut Up', as Aarti has done. > > I do hope you remember that when Shivam VIj made an inappropriate > posting tagged 'Hindu Terrorists' on this list, not very long ago, > he > was promptly admonished by several people, including me. Now that > the > shoe is on the other foot, I am surprised to see you acting > 'holier > than thou' in this fashion when someone says that they have had > enough of what is, frankly, unmitigated prejudice. > > There is no reason why, just as Shivam Vij thought it fit to > render a > graceful apology, Radhikarajen, and anyone else at all, who marks > people, no matter of which community, or which neighbourhood, in > Delhi, or elsewhere, with blanket negative qualifiers, should not > do > the same.That apology is still awaited. > > Shuddha > > > > From aarti.sethi at gmail.com Sun Sep 21 15:39:38 2008 From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com (Aarti Sethi) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 15:39:38 +0530 Subject: [Reader-list] FW: FOURTH ESTATE CRITIQUE Fwd: Some Questions About The Delhi Encounter In-Reply-To: <255466.49728.qm@web25402.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <255466.49728.qm@web25402.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48c2916d0809210309y14036cf8j59bfd588b8ad94b9@mail.gmail.com> Thank you for posting this Sabitha. I have some more questions to add: :From all reports and accounts it appears that the media was tipped off well in advance of this operation. So much so that cables were laid on the ground to ensure clear transmission. How is it that the "dreaded terrorists" holed up in this flat did not get tipped off by this operation in the vicinity and flee then, and indeed waited to leave till after the operation had begun? It seems very strange that they would wait in this flat, while the media gathered, the police arrived, and then run from a house in which there is only one stair which had been taken over by the police. : A report in the Indian Express quotes JC Singh as saying that, "Inspector Sharma had the input but not the specifically of the right address - there was some confusion about the house in which the militants were holed up." Which means that the media was called and arrived in Jamia Nagar while the police wandered about looking for the right house? And again the "terrorists" waited while this was going on, 10 OB vans in the vicnity did not tip them off? : The Indian Express also carries an article which quotes an unnamed police source describing the incident as "a suprise attack by the militants." To thwart such surprise attacks the police have been askedto carry their weapons with them at all times. How is an incident planned by the police, to which the media has been invited beforehand, a "surprise attack"? On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 1:47 PM, sabitha t p wrote: > --- On Sun, 21/9/08, satchidanandan k wrote: > From: bobby.kunhu at gmail.com > To: fourth-estate-critique at googlegroups.com; > grassroots-in-action at googlegroups.com > Subject: FOURTH ESTATE CRITIQUE Fwd: Some Questions About The Delhi > Encounter > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Ajay > Date: 2008/9/21 > Subject: Some Questions About The Delhi Encounter > > Some Questions About The Delhi Encounter > By Shabnam Hashmi, Satya Sivaraman, Manisha Sethi, Tanweer Fazal, Arshad > Alam & Pallavi Deka > 21 September, 2008 > Countercurrents.org > > A team comprising activists, academicians and journalists visited the site > of the police operation against alleged terrorists staying in an apartment > in Jamia Nagar in the afternoon of 20.09.2008 (Saturday). Two alleged > terrorists Atif and Sajid, along with Mohan Chand Sharma, an inspector of > the Delhi Police's Special Cell died in the operation while a third alleged > terrorist was arrested. > > On the basis of our interactions with the local residents, eye witnesses > and the reports which have appeared in the media, we would like to pose the > following questions: > > 1) It has been widely reported (and not refuted by the Police) that in > early August this year Atif, who is described by the Delhi Police as the > mastermind behind the recent terrorist bombings in Jaipur, Ahmedabad and > Delhi, underwent a police verification exercise along with his four > roommates in order to rent the apartment they were staying in Jamia Nagar. > All the five youth living in the apartment submitted to the Delhi police > their personal details, including permanent address, driving license > details, address of the house they previously stayed in, all of which were > found to be accurate. > Is it conceivable that the alleged kingpin behind the terrorist Indian > Mujahideen outfit would have wanted to undergo a police verification- for > whatever purpose- just a week after the Ahmedabad blasts and a month before > the bombings in Delhi? > > 2) The four-storeyed house L-18 in Jamia Nagar, where the alleged > terrorists were staying, has only one access point, through the stair case, > which is covered by an iron grill. It is impossible to leave the house > except from the staircase. By all reports, the staircase was taken over by > the Special Cell and/ or other agencies during the counter-terror operation. > The house, indeed the entire block, was cordoned off at the time of the > operation. > How then was it then possible, as claimed by the police, for two alleged > terrorists to escape the premises during the police operation? > > 3) The media has quoted 'police sources' as having informed them that the > Special Cell was fully aware about the presence of dreaded terrorists, > involved in the bombings in Jaipur, Ahmedabad and Delhi, staying in the > apartment that was raided. > Why was the late Inspector Mohan Chand Sharma, a veteran of dozens of > encounter operations, the only officer in the operation not wearing a bullet > proof vest? Was this due to over-confidence or is there something else to > his mysterious death during the operation? Will the forensic report of the > bullets that killed Inspector Sharma be made public? > > 4) There are reports that towards the end of the counter-terror operation, > some policemen climbed on the roof of L-18 and fired several rounds in the > air. Other policemen were seen breaking windows and even throwing flower > pots to the ground from flats adjacent or opposite to L-18 > Why was the police firing in the air and why did it indulge in destruction > of property around L-18 after the encounter? > > 5) The police officials claim that an AK-47 and pistols were recovered from > L-18. > What was the weapon that killed Inspector Sharma? Was the AK-47 used at all > and by whom? Going by some reports that have appeared (see 'Times of India', > 20.09.08), the AK-47s have been used by the police only. Is it not strange > that alleged terrorists did not use a more deadly and sophisticated weapon > like the AK-47, which they purportedly possessed, preferring to use pistols? > > We feel that there are far too many loose ends in the current story of the > police encounter at L-18 in Jamia Nagar. We demand that a fair, impartial > and independent probe into the incident be initiated at the earliest to > answer the above questions as also any other ones that arise from the > contradictions of the case. > Signed/- Shabnam Hashmi, Satya Sivaraman, Manisha Sethi, Tanweer Fazal, > Arshad Alam, Pallavi Deka > > > Download prohibited? No problem. CHAT from any browser, without > download. Go to http://in.webmessenger.yahoo.com/ > _________________________________________ > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city. > Critiques & Collaborations > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with > subscribe in the subject header. > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: From lalitambardar at hotmail.com Sun Sep 21 16:00:56 2008 From: lalitambardar at hotmail.com (Lalit Ambardar) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 10:30:56 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised In-Reply-To: <48c2916d0809201417l33d0c926y17bcb507d8e4413c@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690809182021u4fb74001g9064d3fa5b8b2c6f@mail.gmail.com> <169ff67c0809190317o72d3ee9l3b502a73561d1372@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809190414g6ce8861eq441fa7d5d609bd32@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809191232u65c82564lee7992d112a4cb6@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809200209r45db4222y10920e7515bddb76@mail.gmail.com> <169ff67c0809200442r540cfd70l9518587f83a48990@mail.gmail.com> <6353c690809200637n797d44d3of4ca06c4586df0d7@mail.gmail.com> <48c2916d0809201417l33d0c926y17bcb507d8e4413c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Aarti, It is not so simple. Please go through the case story as also about the 'desperate attempt' using the skills of the senior celebrity criminal lawyer to get that tag of 'technical grounds' deleted. It was by no means an honorable acquittal. And as mentioned earlier I accept the court verdict as I respect the judiciary -the law of the land. Listen, if only you could feel & imagine what Kashmir Hindu pandits have gone through at the hands of the Kashmiri pan Islamists,you would possibly pause before being so emotional about the man who like many others of his ilk is seen openly in the company of the Kashmiri Muslim terror commanders turned self acclaimed leaders spewing venom against the Indian state at every available forum. You need to understand the pain of wailing Kashmiri Muslim mothers,widows & orphans whose credulous loved ones continue to fall prey to the indoctrination & propaganda campaign of those who have been allowed to acquire a kind of political legitimacy & are pursuing their own sinister agenda. If only someone like you would also go & tell the Kashmiri masses about the consequences of 'azadi -bara -e -Islam'. To adore a stone piece from uninhabitable antarctica & to love & be possessive about your own country & its people are in no way similar. Regards LA > Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 02:47:32 +0530> From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com> To: kauladityaraj at gmail.com> CC: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised> > I know. It is unfortunate isn't it? And youre right. I have run out of> arguments. Making an argument presumes rational discussion. When someone is> displaying nothing more than rank prejudice then no discussion or argument> is possible. I am amazed that we can read the sort of poison that issues on> a daily basis from radhika and continue to have him on this list.> > I would suggest you not give me pointers on etiquette and politness Aditya.> All I have said is shut up. Not a terribly offensive or cutting statement.> It is only asking the person concerned to desist from speaking. Certainly> nothing in the region of the things you have been censored for on this list> not so long ago. I am even more amazed that you can call yourself a secular> person (which you insist on doing) and condone at the same time talk which> is racist, misogynist hate speech. Before giving me platitudes it would do> well to think hard about the kind of talk you condone and the views you> hold. This is probably why no one takes you seriously on this list even> though we all are sympatehtic to the Kashmiri pandit cause. Unfortunately it> is done a great disservice by the likes of you. It is hard to have any> sympathy with someone who parades his victimhood at every possible> oppurtunity and yet is so vicious and hateful towards another community. It> is disgusting.> > > > > On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 7:07 PM, Aditya Raj Kaul wrote:> > > Its unfortunate whoever uses terms such as "Enough. Just. Shut. Up. Be.> > Quiet." and still holds the right to be a member of this forum. If you run> > out of arguments; you don't resort to such cheap behaviour. Its better you> > take to learning; rather then proveing your best to be a so called> > scholarly> > jhollahwaalah.> >> > We are not here to read your "Pass-Time" debate. If you enjoy it; then> > kindly take it offline. Grow Up...!> >> > Love> > Aditya Raj Kaul> >> > On 9/20/08, Nazneen Anand Shamsi wrote:> > >> > > Dear Aarti,> > >> > > This is not with respect to this or that incident. I would like to make a> > > general comment regarding, state and statecraft. Please tell me what is> > > wrong in devising categories to mark a population in order to rule them?> > > What is the great moral dilemma in bumping off few of them here to keeep> > > the> > > official fiction alive? Many of our friends take a position or a point of> > > view on the reader list because perhaps they are in a position of> > privilege> > > to do so? So by producing a list a dissenters and hence personalizing> > > discourse on dissent, a Shuddhabrata, can very easily make a poignant> > > emotional appeal, but tell me, do you believe that, a nation or any> > nation> > > can merely run on such emotional exercises rooted in deliberation alone.> > > Apropos angst about 'media circus'. Tell me Aarti, what was a Ramayana or> > a> > > Mahabharata or a Karbala is if not like a great 'media circus' of an epic> > > scale. Such imagery, such poetry, such fine use of metaphors. So much so> > > that every time I read these texts I am overwhelmed with the sheer> > > exquisiteness of language and craft. Or for instance what was Vietnam war> > > if> > > not a great 'media circus' which swung the other way after an image of> > > wailing Paris was published on 8th June 1972. The point being, I think> > > 'media circus' is a neccesary condition for state and statehood. The> > state> > > as we know and recognise and critque now, grew out of anarchy. It may not> > > have been 'a state of nature' in the strictest of Lockean sense but> > > nevertheless, I think, it need its 'circuses' to give us, a sense of> > > identity, a sense of involvement and a sense of purpose. Howsoever> > > fractured> > > or precarious it may be.> > >> > > Regards> > >> > > Nazo> > >> > >> > >> > > On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 10:09 AM, Aarti Sethi > > > wrote:> > >> > > > Dear Lalit,> > > >> > > > I have never questioned yours or anyone else's attachment to Kashmir or> > > > said> > > > it was invalid. I am sure you feel a great deal for what you have left> > > > behind and I respect that, as I am sure does everyone else on this> > list.> > > > The> > > > fact that you are unable to live there must cause you tremendous sorrow> > > and> > > > it is a terrible tragedy. I was making a point about the sort of> > > attachment> > > > it is possible for me to have, which is of an entirely different order.> > > >> > > > Having said that, I'm not sure how you are making the rest of the> > > > connections in your response.> > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > > > It wasn't the case of 'no evidence' but 'insufficient evidence' & we> > > all> > > > > respect the judicial verdict- 'released' even though on 'technical> > > > grounds'> > > > > only.> > > > >> > > >> > > > I am not sure what the scare quotes are meant to achieve. Scare quotes> > > are> > > > normally used to qualify, or question, the validity of a word or> > phrase.> > > So> > > > 'released' makes no sense, because he was in fact acquitted. There is> > no> > > > room for doubt about this. Again I am unable to understand what 'even> > > > though> > > > on technical grounds only' is supposed to mean. There are no OTHER> > > grounds> > > > on which acquittals are made. People are only ever acquitted on> > technical> > > > grounds. Evidence is a technicality of the judicial process. When there> > > is> > > > no evidence linking someone to an event, then they are acquitted. I am> > > > unable to understand what you find so confusing about this. Its really> > > > quite> > > > simple in this case.> > > >> > > > I do not suppose we can ever imagine what a nightmare SAR Geelani must> > > have> > > > gone through. But I think we should be a little more respectful of> > things> > > > we> > > > are lucky we have not had occasion to experience.> > > >> > > > best> > > > Aarti> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > ------------------------------> > > > >> > > > > Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 01:02:06 +0530> > > > > From: aarti.sethi at gmail.com> > > > > To: lalitambardar at hotmail.com> > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised> > > > > CC: radhikarajen at vsnl.net; reader-list at sarai.net> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > Dear Lalit,> > > > >> > > > > Yes he was released on "technical" grounds. The "technical" grounds> > > that> > > > > the law acquits people on, namely on the utter lack of any evidence> > > > linking> > > > > him to the parliament attack. I know the fact that someone is> > innocent> > > is> > > > a> > > > > flimsy excuse in your book because it would be much better to hang> > him> > > > > nonetheless and "salve the conscience of the nation", however you> > will> > > be> > > > > surprised to know that evidence of culpability is actually pretty> > > central> > > > to> > > > > the judicial process. Unfortunately, it is not simply enough for you> > to> > > > > believe that Geelani was behind the attack, it has to be proved. It> > has> > > > not> > > > > been proved. There is no evidence at all.> > > > >> > > > > I have said this before on this list, and I am saying it again -> > > terror,> > > > > whether by agents acting against the state and terror by the state> > are> > > > > mirrors of each other. Monstrous shadows that seemingly confront each> > > > other> > > > > in a relationship of tense alterity. And who is to say which is which> > > and> > > > > who is whom?> > > > >> > > > > In the times in which we live we will be asked again and again to> > > suspend> > > > > our sense of justice, of ethical responsibility in the name of> > national> > > > > security, of fighting terror. To justify everything - fake> > encounters,> > > > > arrest without warrants, torture, detention on suspicion, rape - so> > > that> > > > we> > > > > may all be safe. Safe from what? We are producing the ghosts that> > haunt> > > > us.> > > > >> > > > > best> > > > > Aarti> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 6:45 PM, Lalit Ambardar <> > > > lalitambardar at hotmail.com> > > > > > wrote:> > > > >> > > > > By the way, this 'guy' was released on 'technical grounds' only.> > Even> > > > one> > > > > of that 'celebrity' senior most criminal lawyers could not get him> > > > relieved> > > > > of this tag. And yet, he continues with his diatribe against India.> > > > >> > > > > And for these 'mobile citizens' they appear to be a confused lot.> > Here,> > > > > they espouse the cause of the pan Islamism driven secessionism in> > > > Kashmir &> > > > > lo, there they raise an issue on the relationship between the 'land'> > &> > > > 'the> > > > > nation'. They have no quarrel with those who thump the 'very land' in> > > > > kashmir with their heals ranting 'ragda'....'ragda' implying 'crush> > > > India'.> > > > > How ironic . Those who do not want to be part of this nation are> > > welcome> > > > to> > > > > opt for the 'land of the pure' & it quite fits in to the mobile> > > > citizens'> > > > > theory- you could still love the land (even if one ignores that> > > > > stupid 'ragda'....'ragda' thumping....???... ) yet need not posses> > it.> > > > > Regards all> > > > > LA> > > > > p s : Opposite of 'nation state' can only be 'anarchy' & 'anarchy'> > can> > > > > only lead to 'mayhem' that is so visible in> > > > > Kashmir since 1989-90.> > > > >> > > > > ------------------------------> > > > >> > > > > > Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 16:45:02 +0500> > > > > > From: radhikarajen at vsnl.net> > > > > > To: aarti.sethi at gmail.com> > > > > > CC: reader-list at sarai.net> > > > >> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised> > > > > >> > > > > > Aarti,> > > > > >> > > > > > we seem to have carried forward of the concept of freedom and> > rights> > > > too> > > > > far without realising to be free, we have some responsibility also to> > > the> > > > > nation and society that has bestowed upon us the freedom and rights.> > in> > > > fact> > > > > the rights have the other side of the coin, that is duties. Without> > > > duties> > > > > to the society, exercising only rights is like license to behave as> > any> > > > > individual wants, a license to tamper the rights of others in> > society,> > > it> > > > is> > > > > license to be irrelevant in a society which has given rights to> > > > individuals> > > > > to be free.> > > > > >> > > > > > A Roy, after winning a booker prize and some dollars can not be> > > > > exercising her rights without the responsibilty to the society in> > which> > > > she> > > > > lives. If she declares herself as walking and talking republic then> > she> > > > has> > > > > every right to say so, but her safety then, solely on her, not on the> > > > > republic of India as she misbehaves in the society that she lives in> > > > > >> > > > > > A Geelani when he invokes his right of feee expression, and as> > > activist> > > > > of human rights, he has to be aware of all humans in society when he> > > > > supports the terror in jamia nagar. When he stores the ground floor> > > plan> > > > of> > > > > parliament, he has to be aware that, he is neither an architect nor a> > > > civil> > > > > engineer and his act can help his terrorist friends. A court may> > acquit> > > > him> > > > > of the charges, but citizens look at him with certain apprehension,> > > > because> > > > > what business he has not to inform of the terror activities that go> > on> > > in> > > > > his neighbourhood. ? Every citizen is police without uniform for the> > > > > society, every police is citizen with uniform. When ghettos of> > muslims> > > > > sheltor, defend the terror accused, the citizens of the nation feel> > > sorry> > > > > for ntire community and look with disdain.> > > > > >> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----> > > > > > From: Aarti Sethi > > > > > > Date: Friday, September 19, 2008 4:45 pm> > > > > > Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Seditious articles on Kashmir criticised> > > > > > To: Nazneen Anand Shamsi , sarai list <> > > > > reader-list at sarai.net>> > > > > >> > > > > > > Dear Nazneen,> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > I have no quarrel with love for land at all. And read my post> > > > > > > again. I used> > > > > > > a specific phrase, I said, 'territorial lust for land'. Can you> > > > > > > love land> > > > > > > without possessing it? That is the question.> > > > > > >> > > > > > > How exactly do you build a relationship with land with which you> > > > > > > have no> > > > > > > personal history of settlement or usage? Now obviously this is> > > > > > > both an> > > > > > > abstract and a concrete question. I have never been to Kashmir,> > > > > > > does this> > > > > > > mean I cannot have any relationship to it? Of course not! The> > > > > > > question is> > > > > > > what kind of relationship? When I was one year old my father went> > > > > > > on a> > > > > > > voyage to Antarctica. One of my most favourite memories of> > > > > > > childhood is> > > > > > > seeing the slides he brought back of the incredible snowscapes> > and> > > > ice> > > > > > > sheets, and a rock which lay in a corner of our house for many> > > years.> > > > > > > Apparently it was part of a meteor which smashed into the earth> > > > > > > some million> > > > > > > years ago. Antarctica is part of no country. Its land is part of> > > > > > > the common> > > > > > > heritage of humanity, for all to build relationships with. As far> > > > > > > as I am> > > > > > > concerned this is the only productive, ethical and creative way> > to> > > > > > > think of> > > > > > > land.> > > > > > >> > > > > > > The trouble is being an Indian citizen gives me fictional> > > > > > > 'ownership' over> > > > > > > the entire territory of India. As if I have some special> > > > > > > entitlement to the> > > > > > > square miles that are part of the map. But which land, whose land> > > > > > > and whose> > > > > > > love? Currently there are struggles going on in this country - in> > > > > > > singur, in> > > > > > > nandigram, in niyamgiri, to name only three sites - where people> > > > > > > are asking> > > > > > > this question. Communities it seems have no right to their own> > > > > > > land in the> > > > > > > name of "development". And this is fine by your logic is it not?> > > > > > > Because the> > > > > > > development of India means that everyone has an entitlement. All> > > > > > > land is the> > > > > > > property of the state. When did this come to pass? Can we ask> > these> > > > > > > questions? Or immediately "pills" must be taken to stamp out> > these> > > > > > > viruses?Maybe your love for India entitles you to such a claim, I> > > > > > > do not feel this> > > > > > > entitlement. And in my opinion this sort of entitlement is where> > > > > > > violence is> > > > > > > born. Can you see the quagmire we are in when we begin to> > collapse> > > > > > > lovefor/of land and territorial entitlement? They are not the> > same> > > > > > > thing.> > > > > > > What does cheering for the Indian cricket team have to do with> > the> > > > > > > area per> > > > > > > square miles of India? Believe me, I am not being facetious at> > > > > > > all. The only> > > > > > > reason this sounds idiotic is because we take for granted the> > > > > > > logic of the> > > > > > > modern nation state which consists of a sovereign entity for a> > > > > > > territorialunit, with a standing army to defend this territory.> > > > > > > This is the first> > > > > > > lesson in every graduate political science lecture. And you are> > > > > > > right, the> > > > > > > nation state is a fragile concept. So maybe we need to ask> > > > > > > ourselves whether> > > > > > > this is not causing more trouble than it is worth...> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Regarding archives and fiction, this is a longer discussion and> > > > > > > tangentialto the point I was making. Of course we may discuss it> > > > > > > if you wish. But just> > > > > > > to clarify what I was saying, I can claim the heritage of the> > > > > > > whole world as> > > > > > > my own. There is an old humanist saying "the world is my home"> > and> > > > > > > i think> > > > > > > there is something of tremendous value here. But there are> > several> > > > > > > ways in> > > > > > > which history and heritage can be claimed. One way seems to be> > > > > > > logic of> > > > > > > subsuming everything, all forms of life and love and affection> > > > > > > into the> > > > > > > rubric of the nation and to stamp out violently any persons or> > > > > > > forms of life> > > > > > > which fall out of this. I am afraid this is too violent and> > boring> > > > > > > for me.> > > > > > >> > > > > > > regards> > > > > > > Aarti> > > > > > >> > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 3:47 PM, Nazneen Anand Shamsi <> > > > > > > nazoshmasi at googlemail.com> wrote:> > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Dear Aarti,> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Please explain how many years constitute a civilization? For> > > > > > > that matter,> > > > > > > > please elucidate the relationship between temporal continuity> > > > > > > and a concept,> > > > > > > > if any? Why should 'pride in being Indian' exclude love for> > > > > > > land? As far as> > > > > > > > history books are concerned, I would ask, who is to decide> > which> > > > > > > fiction of> > > > > > > > the archives is valid? Nation state is a fragile concept, and> > > > > > > whats wrong> > > > > > > > in subduing those who make it more vulnerable? To not to do so> > > > > > > is I think> > > > > > > > not allow one to take a pill if one is afflicted by a minor> > > > > > > virus and hope> > > > > > > > that the body will cope on its own...it is ridiculous isn't it?> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Regards> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Nazo> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 9:39 AM, Aarti Sethi> > > > > > > wrote:>> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> > The signatories assert that "Kashmir is an inalienable> > > > > > > element of> > > > > > > >> India's> > > > > > > >> > civilisational identity and symbolises the fundamental> > > > > > > principles on> > > > > > > >> which> > > > > > > >> > the modern Indian state has been built." Terming national> > > > > > > will as a> > > > > > > >> > critical> > > > > > > >> > component of state power, they felt that "devious> > > > > > > adversaries" have> > > > > > > >> > resorted> > > > > > > >> > to psychological warfare in order to break the national> > will.> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >> What is India's 'civilizational identity'? Does 60 years> > > > > > > constitute a> > > > > > > >> 'civilization'? The point is, that to even raise this question> > > is> > > > > > > >> "sedition". As if those who ask this question are somehow> > naive> > > > > > > deluded>> juvile people. Does 'pride in being Indian', whatever> > > > > > > that is, have to be> > > > > > > >> coupled with a territorial lust for land? I don't think so.> > Our> > > > > > > >> imaginations> > > > > > > >> and affections surely encompass more than the nation. And in> > > > > > > fact they do,> > > > > > > >> that is my point. Read any history book taught in school. We> > > > > > > are so> > > > > > > >> willing> > > > > > > >> so claim 2,000 years of history as 'Indian history', but that> > > > > > > history>> becomes 'Indian history' only 60 years ago. The march> > of> > > > > > > history does not> > > > > > > >> cut some straight and true swath from Ashoka to Nehru, as if> > > > > > > 2,000 years> > > > > > > >> of> > > > > > > >> history is the long unfolding of the story of the 'Indian> > > > > > > nation'. Why is> > > > > > > >> this so scary to concieve is what I don't understand.> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >> Nations are not god-given entities. They are historically> > > > > > > produced units> > > > > > > >> of> > > > > > > >> social organisation. Which is not to say they are of no value> > > > > > > or that they> > > > > > > >> have never played a progressive role. Or that we must have no> > > > > > > investment>> in> > > > > > > >> them. But its alright to question and query the nation. There> > > > > > > is nothing> > > > > > > >> divine about it. Its not 'immoral'. People who are asking> > these> > > > > > > questions>> are not 'bad people', 'enemies of India'.> > > > > > > >> People who are asking today questions about Kashmir's future> > > > > > > and its> > > > > > > >> relationship with India are asking us to think deeply and hard> > > > > > > about how> > > > > > > >> India defines her/its identity. This is a good question, it> > > > > > > would help us> > > > > > > >> all to spend some time on it. It is possible to think> > > > > > > creatively at this> > > > > > > >> moment about the very many ways in which Kashmir can relate to> > > > > > > India.>> There> > > > > > > >> has been some discussion of those ways on this list itself.> > > > > > > Various kinds> > > > > > > >> of> > > > > > > >> autonomy arrangements, of porous borders, many things can be> > > > > > > thought>> through. But to deign all such conversations as> > > > > > > "seditious" is no way to> > > > > > > >> go> > > > > > > >> anywhere.> > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >> best> > > > > > > >> A> > > > > > > >> _________________________________________> > > > > > > >> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > > > > > > >> Critiques & Collaborations> > > > > > > >> To subscribe: send an email to> > reader-list-request at sarai.netwith> > > > > > > >> subscribe in the subject header.> > > > > > > >> To unsubscribe:> > > > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > > > > > >> List archive: > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > _________________________________________> > > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations> > > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.netwith> > > > > > > subscribe in the subject header.> > > > > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-> > > > > > > list> > > > > > > List archive: > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > _________________________________________> > > > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > > > > > Critiques & Collaborations> > > > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > > subscribe in the subject header.> > > > > > To unsubscribe:> > https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > ------------------------------> > > > > Hottest news and in-depth analysis that goes beyond the headlines.> > Only> > > > on> > > > > MSN News Check it out! > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > ------------------------------> > > > > Get the latest buzz on outsourcing. Up to date information on> > mergers,> > > > > acquisitions and deals on BPO Watch. Try it now!<> > > > http://www.bpowatchindia.com/default.asp>> > > > >> > > > _________________________________________> > > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > > > Critiques & Collaborations> > > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > > subscribe in the subject header.> > > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > > _________________________________________> > > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > > Critiques & Collaborations> > > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > > subscribe in the subject header.> > > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with> > subscribe in the subject header.> > To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list> > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/>> >> _________________________________________> reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> Critiques & Collaborations> To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai.net with subscribe in the subject header.> To unsubscribe: https://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list > List archive: <https://mail.sarai.net/pipermail/reader-list/> _________________________________________________________________ Searching for the best deals on travel? Visit MSN Travel. http://in.msn.com/coxandkings From lalitambardar at hotmail.com Sun Sep 21 16:11:48 2008 From: lalitambardar at hotmail.com (Lalit Ambardar) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 10:41:48 +0000 Subject: [Reader-list] Trespassers in Kashmir? In-Reply-To: <47e122a70809201226r258ec556j3475490160525ff1@mail.gmail.com> References: <6353c690809201207p3bdfe199hfc9cd82471cc1619@mail.gmail.com> <47e122a70809201226r258ec556j3475490160525ff1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Inder, You said....so, grant every kind of automony to them, this pain should comes to an immediate end.... You could as well define who these them are,please ? Regards LA > Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 00:56:54 +0530> From: indersalim at gmail.com> To: reader-list at sarai.net> Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Trespassers in Kashmir?> > Dear Aditya> > let us read it again, what this sexy old man writes:> > "Every village in the Valley has its quota of unmarked graves. How> > long can this be allowed to go on? Give the Valley azadi it wants. .... put an end to this sorry state of affairs."> > Yes, it is all sad that Indian militrary presence in Kashmir has> produced graves and disappearances, how long this will go,> so it is better, to give them the azadi, Roughly this is what> Arundhati Roy too said...> > > > yes, i am not in favour of a kashmiri army at Lakah pur with guns in> their hands..... the police in the present form is enough....> > > so, grant every kind of automony to them, this pain should comes to> an immediate end.> > with love> is> > > On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 12:37 AM, Aditya Raj Kaul> wrote:> > Trespassers in Kashmir?> > *Khushwant Singh> > *> > September 19, 2008> >> > I have yet to hear a Kashmiri Muslim describe himself as Indian. It was, and> > is to this day: "I am a Kashmiri." Perhaps among the exceptions are Sheikh> > Abdullah, his son Farooq and grandson Omar. Right from 1947, whenever India> > played cricket matches against Pakistan, Kashmiri Muslims supported> > Pakistan. If you don't believe me, read Basharat Peer's Curfewed Night> > (Random House). Don't dismiss this as a trivial aberration because it does> > reveal the Kashmiri Muslim's mindset. Now it has been revealed for all to> > see.> >> > They want us, Indians, out of the Valley. They may or may not throw in their> > lot with chronically unstable Pakistan. But have the leaders demanding azadi> > from India considered the consequences that may follow our getting out of> > the Valley? The language they use to rouse the rabble indicates they> > haven't. And that applies to leaders of all the separatist factions.> >> > The most serious consequences of *azadi* will be the exodus of non-Muslims —> > Kashmiri Pandits and Sikhs — from the Valley. Don't accept their assurances> > that it will not happen. It happened when Kashmiri Pandits left the Valley> > in large numbers because they felt insecure. Mohammad Ali Jinnah and> > Jawaharlal Nehru gave us similar assurances preceding the> > Partition.> >> > If and when Hindus and Sikhs are pushed out of the Valley, right-wing Hindu> > groups, extending from the RSS, the VHP, the Shiv Sena, the Bajrang Dal to> > the BJP will press for the expulsion of Muslims from Jammu (where they are> > in majority in two tehsils) and elsewhere. The Valley's only commercial> > outlets and tourism is linked to India. There is not a hotel in the country> > that does not have a shop selling Kashmiri handicrafts, carpets and shawls.> > Thousands of Kashmiri Muslims work as labourers in Indian towns and cities.> > Will not their future be jeopardised by the call for azadi? If there is the> > slightest risk of starting mass migrations, we must reject it, come what> > may.> >> > The situation has been going out of hand since 1990. Basharat Peer tells us> > that ever since, thousands of Kashmiris have crossed over to Pakistan to get> > military training and arms and sneaked back into the Valley to create mayhem> > and murder.> >> > The locals give them shelter and food.> >> > The only response India could make was to send in more troops, impose severe> > restraints on the locals and kill those they thought were anti-Indian> > militants. Every village in the Valley has its quota of unmarked graves. How> > long can this be allowed to go on? Give the Valley azadi it wants. But spell> > it out to mean only internal autonomy to manage its affairs. No more. India> > must retain its military presence to guard its frontiers against intruders.> > But at all costs, put an end to this sorry state of affairs.> > _________________________________________> > reader-list: an open discussion list on media and the city.> > Critiques & Collaborations> > To subscribe: send an email to reader-list-request at sarai